Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[bogan]

No use talking to any cunt on this thread then everyone seems to be one of a set of the three monkeys!

Or the 4th option, there is no evil, no conspiracy; just science benefiting mankind. You're welcome.

[Ocean1]

It's not the 1800's any more, things have change a lot since then.

Yes, vaccinations have prevented the deaths of millions. You didn't bother with the facts I see.

Oh I dunno, I think people do understand that certain diseases have been all but stopped in their tracks by vaccination, but for whatever reasons, they don't fancy jamming chemicals and viruses into their kids.

If they understand the reason human life expectancy has doubled in the last century or so but choose to risk reversing that trend for their kid and every other human on the planet including their descendants then they're idiots that need removing from the gene pool.

[James Deuce]

Like I said: Go and have a look for your self!

I have. I live it daily.

Just to clear up one misconception. IHC do nothing for disabled kids anymore. They are first and foremost a policy group and secondly they administrate respite and long-term care facilities for aged disabled people.

The biggest users of early intervention centres are birth hypoxia fuckups from the return of home births and midwife centred birth management. Closely followed by chromosomal disorders of which about 50% are due to environmental teratogens.

My wife is a paediatric nurse. In 25 years of nursing, the biggest group of children affected by man-made environmental factors were/are French Polynesian children born with an imperforate anus, a documented side-effect of being exposed to high levels of gamma radiation during pregnancy. Atmospheric Nuclear testing FTW. Contained (not) underground nuclear testing FTW.

When she worked at Princess Margaret before it became Starship, there were dozens of children per year, sent to NZ for remedial surgery. She has dealt with, on average one vaccination related reaction case that has caused significant disability per year, in Masterton, Auckland, and Lower Hutt. None of the parents she's dealt with became rabid anti-vaxxers as a result, so why do people who've NEVER been affected by it continue to spread the myth that it's a massive problem?

Because: fuckwits.

[Edbear]

Interestingly, it is often the same people opposed to vaccinations who want peanuts banned from primary schools.

One of my grandsons is deadly allergic to peanuts while his brother can eat anything. The Doc doesn't have a reason why two children from the same parents in the same environment would be opposites in allergies. The one with the peanut allergy has a lot of other allergies as well, whereas his brother has none at all.

The fact that the peanut allergy is fatal is why the big noise about it.

[Edbear]

PS. I am pro vaccinations by the way.

[Paul in NZ]

On an issue like this - no one in the general populace has got the time or the resources to instigate a proper research programme to come to some kind of answer or opinion based on fact. Even if you have the raw data you are still forced to rely on someone else to correctly record or present that data. Very few of us have much real world observational experience (Jim2's wife excepted) with the numbers sufficient to come to a statistically relevant answer. In short we rely on the advice/research/opinion of others that resonates with some kind of fundamental ideal with very little way to verify that its correct.

In this way the question of vaccination is similar to a religious one. ie since we cannot argue over valid empirical evidence we can see with our own eyes its effectively a belief taken on trust. Indeed in my limited experience it is also a belief that tends to come as a subset of a bunch of other fundamental ideas about the way we live our lives. Groups who take one set of beliefs (lets just say for example) like alternative education tend by nature to follow other non mainstream beliefs.

Because these ideas are core to their way of living its almost impossible to argue them objectively. Once one of the foundation blocks gets lost the whole pack of cards tends to fall down and a whole way of life becomes exposed as a lie so its even harder to convince someone that they may be incorrect on one issue.

In the end - this thread is useless - you will never convince anyone they are wrong about this issue.

My opinion is that vaccination is a good thing because I was vaccinated and I have not died of a hideous disease yet. Yes - there do seem to be more problems in society like the various people with issues on the autism spectrum BUT there are so many other variations in the ways we all live that I would find it a pretty long bow to draw to ascribe this to vaccination. Alcohol is more freely available and more consumed, recreational drug use is more common and the world is vastly more connected than ever (ie people travel more). I have no fear of chemicals as when you come to it, everything is a chemical in its composition. I have no fear of advances in medicine as 100 years ago - I would be 100% DEAD without insulin....

[James Deuce]

I have no fear of advances in medicine as 100 years ago - I would be 100% DEAD without insulin....

You and between 70-80% of everyone on this forum and 50% of their mothers.

There's plenty of empirical evidence that vaccination works and it is freely available. The main issue is that science is taught so poorly that people equate the adoption of new methods and the discreditation of previous methods as a "fail". Science is more about "Oops I was wrong" than it is about presenting an absolute "fact". Religion on the other hand...

This has been allowed to turn into a fundamental lack of trust in science and the scientific method, because people equate the easy access to information as knowledge, without having the personal tools to dig below the surface argument of raving fuckwits like the "Food Babe". Or dickheads who present fake studies based on a control group of whom 75% have the potential to be on the Autism spectrum in the first place.

[mashman]

We didn't have vaccination for about the first 100,000 years of human evolution - and yet we still died en masse from Viruses, within 100 years of discovering vaccinations, we wiped out Small pox (which was killing millions a year globally) - I think that evidence alone weighs heavily in my favour.

If the price to pay for that is a few people have adverse reactions for a few days and even fewer have severe complications and maybe one or 2 unfortunate souls die - when you weight that against the Millions that did die on a yearly basis - yes I pay the price gladly - sleeping well on the fact that the few who die due to the vaccine would have died anyway when exposed to the real virus.

as for no Causality - if you are talking about Autism - yes, there is NO causality - that research has been debunked both scientifically and ethically.

The evidence is heavily in the favour of vaccination. That there is a lack of evidence regarding causality, likely rendered moot by labeling boxes with side-effects, that lack of evidence concerns me given that there are direct observations of causality.

Ok, so we're going to stop sugar, fatty foods, riding, driving, getting out of bed etc... but yeah, for the greater good is an argument that you can't really rail against, but it shouldn't be used to force vaccination on those who don't want it.. let alone the vilification that such a stance attracts.

So how do you explain the direct observations of those who witness their children changing not long after a vaccination? Bad luck?

[mashman]

If they understand the reason human life expectancy has doubled in the last century or so but choose to risk reversing that trend for their kid and every other human on the planet including their descendants then they're idiots that need removing from the gene pool.

And that's all down to vaccination eh?

[Ocean1]

And that's all down to vaccination eh?

What do you think?
http://ourworldindata.org/data/healt...ladnyi-1988ref

[Ocean1]

The evidence is heavily in the favour of vaccination. That there is a lack of evidence regarding causality, likely rendered moot by labeling boxes with side-effects, that lack of evidence concerns me given that there are direct observations of causality.

Ok, so we're going to stop sugar, fatty foods, riding, driving, getting out of bed etc... but yeah, for the greater good is an argument that you can't really rail against, but it shouldn't be used to force vaccination on those who don't want it.. let alone the vilification that such a stance attracts.

So how do you explain the direct observations of those who witness their children changing not long after a vaccination? Bad luck?

There is no lack of evidence re cause in vaccines whatsoever: they save hundreds of thousands of lives every year.

What the fuck has a list of completely unrelated factors to do with vaccination?

Probably the same way pretty much every health professional does: it's the age kids change fastest, why not blame changes on the icecream they had the week before?

[James Deuce]

So how do you explain the direct observations of those who witness their children changing not long after a vaccination? Bad luck?

How do you explain the parents who are willing to potentially kill my most at risk child because they won't vaccinate their kids? But it's OK because he's "only" a retard, eh?

DS people run nearly leukaemic for much of their lives. He was too neutropenic to vaccinate for MMR and we were advised to avoid it until his white cell count was higher. Then I find that at least 30% of educated middle class fuckwits are quite happy to expose someone with a suppressed immune system to easily preventable childhood diseases that would most likely kill him.

And because he's a "retard" and an "economic drain and classroom distraction" most of the selfish fuckwits would be happy with that outcome. Some of them would say that to our face. Many complain that there's "too much" focus on him in the first place. Not my fault mainstreaming is policy and the much-vaunted "IHC centres" no longer exist. I'd much rather he didn't have to interface with the children of murderous idiots. He has a separate funding stream anyway.

I hate people. Especially middle class ones with access to the Internet. Which describes most motorcyclists.

[Paul in NZ]

And that's all down to vaccination eh?

Its definitely a brick in that wall...

You should visit a really old cemetery and read the headstones... That while knowing that only those wealthy enough and religious enough are buried there. The numbers of really young are quite staggering.

Humanity regularly makes some major fuck ups. In general this isn't one of them...

[mashman]

What do you think?
http://ourworldindata.org/data/healt...ladnyi-1988ref

Very pretty graphs.

[mashman]

There is no lack of evidence re cause in vaccines whatsoever: they save hundreds of thousands of lives every year.

What the fuck has a list of completely unrelated factors to do with vaccination?

Probably the same way pretty much every health professional does: it's the age kids change fastest, why not blame changes on the icecream they had the week before?

I'm sure they do.

Those factors aren't unrelated in my book... they all trigger a physiological response.

Why not blame the environment under which the kids grow? When someone says that within 24 hours of their child's inoculation that that child has changed beyoind recognition and irreparably, I tend to accept that it wasn't the ice-cream from the week before... although as no-one takes the trouble to check the kids blood before inoculation it's hardly surprising that we end up with broken people.