Wire (cheese cutter) barriers

[Kinje]

In my mind, the problem with these barrriers for motorcyclists appears to be sliding along and hitting the support posts or wire. I like the idea many people have suggested of some sort of plastic protection over the structure that allows a motorcyclist to slide along the side of the barrier, but allows a car to break through it and be brought to a halt without bouncing back into traffic. To be effective the cover needs to go over the wire and posts continuously so you can't get under the wire or round the posts. It needs to be built to a thickness that holds its structure when hit by a body, but deforms when hit by a heavy car.

[Pixie]

Can I suggest that someone wat is good wif words put together a letter of concern that others may use as a template to email to their member of parliament? Pixie perhaps you could post a copy of the message you sent to Maurice Williamson? If everyone here can forward it to their families and friends to send off to their local MP things should start gaining momentum on that side of things - nothing like an email campaign to get bored office workers interested.

Dear Mr Williamson
I will make this brief.
I don't trust our dead loss Labour government to even listen to motorcyclists, as we are the wrong sort of minority, I hope you can see the need to raise the issue of wire rope barriers on our roads.
We have voiced our concerns to LTNZ and Transit NZ to no avail.
Now, as predicted, we have had a horrendous fatality of a twenty year old motorcyclist on the Auckland motorway.As the victim did not collide with anything but the "cheese-cutter",it is safe to assume that it was solely responsible for his injuries.Injuries that sliding along a concrete barrier would not have afflicted.
I hope you can help.

Kind Regards


I suggest a different tactic for government MPs

[Ocean1]

The three metre space is obviously to allow for the fact that a car or truck will intrude up to three metres into the oncoming lane if it collides with the barrier.
If Transit are installing these barriers as single runs between opposing lanes ,then they will not prevent head on collisions

Don't hang me on that 3M, I've heard figures from 3M to 8M, possibly depends on design specifics and application. We need to know though, if they're being installed to other than full standards compliance that's a very useful thing to know.

I know many NZ roads aren't wide enough to simply fit central barriers with adequate separation, that’s a large part of the reason they need them in the first place. Widening roads is very expensive, but installing barriers outside of their design parameters is most definitely a not valid substitute. Anyone here a registered civil engineer? You should have cheap access to whatever standards apply no?

[Hitcher]

And when writing to officials or MPs, it's really useful to attach references or links to material that actually supports your rant or outlines a more suitable option, rather than just having a rant. Put yourself in their position -- why should they give a shit?

[Pixie]

Don't hang me on that 3M, I've heard figures from 3M to 8M, possibly depends on design specifics and application. We need to know though, if they're being installed to other than full standards compliance that's a very useful thing to know.

I know many NZ roads aren't wide enough to simply fit central barriers with adequate separation, that’s a large part of the reason they need them in the first place. Widening roads is very expensive, but installing barriers outside of their design parameters is most definitely a not valid substitute. Anyone here a registered civil engineer? You should have cheap access to whatever standards apply no?

The width argument is Transit BS.
At a guess a wire rope barrier is 150 mm wide along the barrier and 400 mm at the rope anchor points and a concrete barrier is 400 mm wide.

[imdying]

you cannot place a value on a life, no matter whos it is. the wealthy are not worth more than we are, and the poor are not worth less.

I know what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Of course you can place a value on a life, if you're building roads.

I have no doubt that proper concrete roads (or ones with better grip, more run off, whatever) that don't turn into a maze of potholes in record time, would certainly save lives. I also accept that that isn't going to happen, we simply cannot afford to build such high quality roads.

The actualy price of a life isn't what's important, it's how much can we get them to spend! Sure that's a shitty way of looking at it, but it's reality... we don't have an unlimited budget to spend.

Sure they could actually spend more of the money collected for roads, on roads, but one battle at a time. We can line that one up behind getting young men to stop using the road as a race track/stunting ground eh...

[inlinefour]

Yea and as cynical as this sounds a DEAD biker costs THEM a lot less money wise than an injured one

I can definitelty vouch for that...

I've seen the result of a biker going through a farmers fence at speed. The result was not a good look. I've driven via cage past the cheese graters up north and the gave me the shits. I've also ridden the CBR past them several times and stayed as far away from them as was possible. These cheese graters are yet another example of NZ following other countries' mistakes, instead of learning from them. The only reason I can see for it, is cost.
My Uncle is a contractor for Transit and lives just down the road, I intend on asking him about these things and why they was used over other options. Might get an honest answer instead of the official word?

[discotex]

The width argument is Transit BS.
At a guess a wire rope barrier is 150 mm wide along the barrier and 400 mm at the rope anchor points and a concrete barrier is 400 mm wide.

From what I understand it's quite clear that if width is the reason they're installing a wire rope barrier it's also the reason it won't prevent a head on collision.

Having seen two cars hit these barriers with my own eyes on the Northern motorway I know they deform a long long way as they absorb the impact. The tyre marks in the grass were easily 1-2m past the line of the wire on the other side.

[James Deuce]

And when writing to officials or MPs, it's really useful to attach references or links to material that actually supports your rant or outlines a more suitable option, rather than just having a rant. Put yourself in their position -- why should they give a shit?

Did that. They called into question the validity of a report commissioned by the European Parliament. FFS.

Hence my rant earlier on. There's no point. We're not arguing with reasonable individuals.

[Ocean1]

The width argument is Transit BS.
At a guess a wire rope barrier is 150 mm wide along the barrier and 400 mm at the rope anchor points and a concrete barrier is 400 mm wide.

Not the physical width of the barrier in question, the free space between the traffic flow and said barrier. Installing barriers of any sort requires significantly more road width, and I don't see too much widening or abandonment of lanes going on when they're introduced to any given bit of road...

[Ixion]

agreed... damn stupid place for them. i remember i did a night ride down that way... would have been about 9.30 and pitch black. i was crawling along that bit of road at about 50k cos i couldnt see where they were. never been so scared in all my life of coming off.

That is another point. They are DAMN hard to see at night. Why do they not have reflectorised markings?

[Fub@r]

This "concrete barrier is just as bad " keeps coming up. I know it's false, but I've not put it to the test. Has anyone actually had experience of hitting a concrete barrier ? or any other sort? So they can give a first hand statement.

A link I posted earlier gave impact figures comparing cheese cutters and concrete. Cheese cutters were 4-5 times higher in potential impact trauma using crash test dummies. They found that using a cheese cutter that the bike would hit an upright and would catapult the rider off the bike, over the barrier and usually impacted on the road head first.

With a concrete barrier there was still a high impact figure due to concrete not being forgiving but the bike stayed upright

[Mom]

That is another point. They are DAMN hard to see at night. Why do they not have reflectorised markings?

Most worrying for me is they are now appearing on the shoulder of main country roads. Through the Dome Valley they have been installed, preventing anyone having a second option to avoid a head on collision. They are not there to prevent a vehicle dropping any great distance, I am talking a bit of a drain and some grass, and they are not reflectorised either. On a bike faced with an oncoming car, there is no other option apart from head on with the car, or take on the cheese cutter wire. Not much of a choice.

For those that dont know the Dome Valley road is a part of SH1 between Wellsford and Warkworth, and has one of the countries worst fatal crash statistics..... A true black spot.

[Phurrball]

Hi all,

Motorcycle safety interview on RadioNZ National this afternoon -

Jim Mora interviews the Chief Exec of Motorcycling NZ Paul Pavlotich (?Sp?)

While the linked MP3 file (tried and failed to upload..) is mostly on air-bag jackets for motorcyclists, a mention is made of the 'cheese cutter' barriers and the recent tragedy that befell one of our own:

In response to the question "What kind of gear would help a motorcyclist in the event of collision with say cheese cutter wire?" the response was:

"If you're referring to the accident in that happened in South Auckland...I don't imagine anything would really protect you from a high speed impact with a wire rail"

We seem to be maintaining some momentum on this issue in the media - keep up the pressure!

The link to the podacast is here.

[Ixion]

A link I posted earlier gave impact figures comparing cheese cutters and concrete. Cheese cutters were 4-5 times higher in potential impact trauma using crash test dummies. They found that using a cheese cutter that the bike would hit an upright and would catapult the rider off the bike, over the barrier and usually impacted on the road head first.

With a concrete barrier there was still a high impact figure due to concrete not being forgiving but the bike stayed upright

Yep, got those. But a lot of folk, their eyes glaze over when figures are introduced. It would be good to say "Meet X, he collided with a concrete barrier at 100kph, and walked away. A wire one would have cut him in half" . Makes it sort of personal.