TV 8/2/07: Inside New Zealand - 4WD menace

[Wolf]

I wasn't going to participate in this thread because quite honestly, as OAB says I'm getting sick of having to defend my choice of vehicle but...

Since when did I ask/expect anyone to defend their choice of vehicle?

I said that there was a doco on inherent risks in SUV - which there are, same as there are inherent risks in all vehicles - and that it seemed worth a look and suddenly everyone feels the need to defend their choice to have an SUV and starts on the "Eco-Nazi Conspiracy" crap.

I also said later that I'd happily see a well documented programme on the risks of motorcycles in the hopes that other road users would learn from it.

How do these cars contribute to road safety? I'd suggest that my 4x4 breaks and corners way better than most cars in this category!

They don't but they at least look nice - especially if properly restored. Modern cars are arse - ugly, utilitarian, practically uniform and boring. As I said, the only reason I have a car is that it is useful for carrying things I cannot carry on a bike. Other than that I have no interest in cars except for the classic ones because they at least had style.

[Timber020]

Go the SUV! A work mates favourite trick with his landcruiser was to get is up on two wheels (he just dabbed the brakes and swerved), it was a real crowd pleaser until one night jason forgot about the big full snap on toolbox in the back which blew out his rear side window and gave it a great out dent, it was nearly enough to put it on its roof, but he saved it.

Another mate about 10 years back whom a few kiwibikers from up north will probably know had his wife driving home with the 2 kids in the SUV when they think she swerved to avoid something on a straight bit of road, it rolled. All dead.

My oversized 4wd has been hit twice over the last couple of years. Once by a Ford F250 (cant be many of those around) and once by a prado. Both times I was parked, the prado actually hit me 3 times in the side trying to do a 20 point turn, the 3rd time hard enough to buckle her rear door, break the rear window and two side rear windows and for the spare wheel to be ripped off. My workmate and I couldnt breath we were laughing so hard.

I have little faith in the ability or inability of people to control there vehicles, and the suv's used by people who have no idea of their limitations put alot of road users, including themselves in danger. This is a fact. I would think about a licensing system, I know its ass but it would make the roads safer as less soccer mums would bother and would stick to vehicles they are capable of putting there lipstick on in.

With trucks you used to get one heavy vehicle license that covered everything from a 3500kg to a 45,000 kg rig. You could legally get your licence in a heavily loaded toyota dyna van and drive a fully layden big rig that day on the roads. (we had some guy at a company I worked for claim he had driven all sorts of trucks when he had only got his licence in his dads mitz titan and was trying to get a job behind a 500hp 15sp ERF) It was insane. now you can sit your license in a smart car and drive a bohemoth towing a horsefloat with no other need for training? You just have to watch the number of SUV's that jack knife at the tip, jetty and horse events every weekend to know this isnt smart.

[HRT]

Haha, get over it Wolf.

There will always be those vehicles out there and the people driving them have as much right to drive them on the road as anyone else has to drive anything else legally registered. I personally cant see the point in those vehicles for taking the kids to school or whatever (apparent from the "safe to those inside" factor), but its their choice about what to drive. I can see it from other peoples point about why have bikes on the road when they serve no real purpose (from their point of view)

As for the comment about having older cars off the road (other than classics), where do you draw the line? Classics can come down to a personal preference. Being a little bit keen on Toyotas I would consider my KE20 and even KE36 to be getting a little bit classic, though I know many who would object to such a statements (mainly due to them being Japanese). There are a shit load of people who would call the AE86s a classic for obvious reasons, though they're a mid 80s Corolla. Where does the line get drawn?

End of the day, all you can do is bitch about it on the internet

[Pixie]

I come across more fucking idiots in cars than I do in 4x4's.

Actually the percentage of fucking idiots is the same for both,but there are more cars around.

I don't mind what they drive as long as they don't block me as their gutless diesel crawls up a hill and they don't cross the centerline because they think their SUV is so big it cant keep left and they don't mind if I stop and laugh at them when they exceed their abilities and suffer the consequences,like the two SUV's on their roofs in the ditch on old north rd I've seen....Plonkers thought driving on the dirt verge was being adventurous,but they don't seem to see the culverts

[Wolf]

well said OMB, I have seen my share of shit drivers/riders but do not hold everyone who drives a car/truck/suv or rides motorbike in the same light

And who here said "all SUV drivers are..."? No one, yet a lot of the SUV drivers here seem to be reacting as if the words "some" or "many" equate to "all" and getting on their high horses.

its not a matter of educating suv owners its about educating everyone who drives/rides on the roads

And I did say in my first post that it would be handy for people who do not drive SUVs to watch the doco in order to learn more about the characteristics of SUVs. I also said that a doco about motorcycles would also be a good idea as a lot of road users patently don't have a clue about bikes.

But it seems to be much more fun to react as if a personal slur has been delivered and let rip.

So far we've had references to government and eco-nazi conspiracies, people reacting as if the suggestion was to ban all SUVs, references to "intimidating vehicles" and other such crap that has no bearing on the discussion.

In simple words:
I am not saying SUVs should be banned
I'm not saying that all SUV owners are irresponsible idiots.
I have no objections to SUVs on ecological grounds
I do not feel intimidated by SUVs.
I did not ask or expect anyone to "defend" their choice of vehicle.

The references to banning SUVs and intimidating vehicles and comparisons with "eco-friendly cars" all came from SUV owners' posts so clearly there are some issues in your own minds on these matters. The "I'm sick of having to defend my choice of vehicle" comments came out of the SUV owners' posts. Are some of you feeling so persecuted that any reference to the dangers of your chosen vehicle is seen as a personal attack?

As has been stated: there are dangers associated with all vehicles. Very different dangers across the spectrum owing to the various strengths and weaknesses of the vehicles. This is a fact.

It is also a fact that there are people across the spectrum of drivers/riders that clearly do not fully appreciate the dangers of the vehicles they drive/ride.

Pointing that this applies to SUVs seems to be construed as a personal attack against every single SUV driver on the planet.

HRT: Where did I say SUVs should be taken off the road? Please enlighten me with a quote.

Where did I say that all older cars except classics should be removed from the road? Likewise supply a quote.

What I DID say was that all road users should be aware of the physical characteristics of other types of vehicles - braking distances, cornering, acceleration, blind spots etc. Apparently that equates to "ban all SUVs and other intimidating non-eco-friendly vehicles because everyone who owns one is a wanker" in SUVese and really gets people's back up, but no one infomed me - and I thought I was good at foreign languages!

OAB: at what point in my posts did I say that you personally were unaware of the dangers of SUVs, motorcycles, flying carpets or whatever? I've never seen you drive your SUV and, from what you say, if I ever did I probably wouldn't take more than a second's notice of you before removing you as a potential danger and forgetting about you and your SUV.

However, there are people out there driving 2 tons of SUV who don't drive with due consideration for the vehicle's mass and momentum or basic safety, an observation on my part that you have chosen to take as a personal attack on you that you feel you have to yet again defend yourself against.

[Lou Girardin]

Despite the bleatings of the 4x4 owners, the facts remain that;
the vast majority don't need, or use, 4x4 capability
there are multi seat conventional wagons available
4x4 are disproportionally more dangerous to their owners and others
our 4x4 fleet is old and polluting
people who buy cheap 4x4's don't/can't maintain them properly
All the rest is self-justification, just like the guy who wrote to the Herald singing the praises of his 4x4 that 'saved' his life. He got shot down quickly.

[stanko]

Despite the bleatings of the Motorcycle owners, the facts remain that;
the vast majority don't need, or use, Motorcycles capabilities
there are multi seat sidecars available
Motorcycle are disproportionally more dangerous to their owners and others
our Motorcycle fleet is new and exciting
people who buy cheap motorcycles don't/can't maintain them properly.

[DEATH_INC.]

The "I'm sick of having to defend my choice of vehicle" comments came out of the SUV owners' posts. Are some of you feeling so persecuted that any reference to the dangers of your chosen vehicle is seen as a personal attack?

Yes, in exactly the same way we have to defend our right to ride a bike, you get sick of being hassled because you refuse to drive a white tin box......

[DEATH_INC.]

It is also a fact that there are people across the spectrum of drivers/riders that clearly do not fully appreciate the dangers of the vehicles they drive/ride.

Yep, point taken, but this applies to ALL vehicles, not just suv's. What do you think would happen to that cute little white town car when a falcon towing a 2 tonne boat mows it down? (or even without the boat for that matter). Do we see doco's on the dangers of vans even though any ambo can tell you horrific stories of mutilated legs etc, even in relatively minor crashes?
Sorry, but this is just the usual sensationalism and bitching and moaning that this country is getting widely known for.

[Wolf]

Yes, in exactly the same way we have to defend our right to ride a bike, you get sick of being hassled because you refuse to drive a white tin box......

Do I? Oh, thank you so much for telling me what I get sick of. Could you please tell me what I am feeling today, O Great and Wondrous Expert.

Sorry, still not going to red rep you - I don't do that. Same as I don't resort to rude gestures (or smilies) or poking my tongue out and making "pfffft" noises to attempt to settle arguments.

Try taking your "everyone wants to take away my SUV" filter off some day.

[Wolf]

Yep, point taken, but this applies to ALL vehicles, not just suv's. What do you think would happen to that cute little white town car when a falcon towing a 2 tonne boat mows it down? (or even without the boat for that matter). Do we see doco's on the dangers of vans even though any ambo can tell you horrific stories of mutilated legs etc, even in relatively minor crashes?

No, but I'd be quite happy to. As I've said in other posts - all road users need to be educated in the dangers of all vehicles. You seem to have missed that, having seen the letters "SUV" and spun out into "they want to take my SUV away" mode.

Sorry, but this is just the usual sensationalism and bitching and moaning that this country is getting widely known for.

Funny, the same thing could be said about certain conspiracy theories of the "they're trying to take our .... away from us" variety...

[Clockwork]

Since when did I ask/expect anyone to defend their choice of vehicle?

Agreed.... you didn't (and I quoted OAB - not you) but I still felt it was necessary. This isn't the first anti-SUV thread started this week! (I know, this thread isn't anti-SUV it's pro safety docos)

It looks interesting from the preview - apparently only 15% of those bought in NZ are used for the purpose for which they were built, which means 85% of the bloody things have no right being on the roads endangering our lives

The tone of this thread is "Look, those self centred SUV drivers are putting us all at risk so that they can pose around in their pretentious, ego massaging, Remuera Tractors"

They don't but they at least look nice - especially if properly restored. Modern cars are arse - ugly, utilitarian, practically uniform and boring. As I said, the only reason I have a car is that it is useful for carrying things I cannot carry on a bike. Other than that I have no interest in cars except for the classic ones because they at least had style.

So if my SUV were prettier, that would excuse its other failings?

And who here said "all SUV drivers are..."? No one, yet a lot of the SUV drivers here seem to be reacting as if the words "some" or "many" equate to "all" and getting on their high horses.

But yeah, nobody driving an SUV in NZ is a pretentious git with no need for one. Every single SUV owner in the country is responsible, mature, well versed in the risks and can justify their need to have one..

Sorry, my mistake. I took the imbedded quote to be sarcasm and interpreted it as meaning exactly the opposite of what it says.

You may well believe that this doco is a genuine attempt to improve road saftey, you may even beleive that you will learn somthing useful from it, presonally I just see it as more...Ammo in the SUV war - From NZ researchers

[KLOWN]

Despite the bleatings of the Motorcycle owners, the facts remain that;
the vast majority don't need, or use, Motorcycles capabilities
there are multi seat sidecars available
Motorcycle are disproportionally more dangerous to their owners and others
our Motorcycle fleet is new and exciting
people who buy cheap motorcycles don't/can't maintain them properly.

if you used motorcycles to thier abilities you would be breaking the law AND the bikes that are made for OFF ROAD or DUAL purpose DO get used OFF ROAD

people don't buy bike to cary people around

motorcycles aren't dangerous to other road uses just themselves

I bought a cheap motorcycle and maintained it.

[pete376403]

. now you can sit your license in a smart car and drive a bohemoth towing a horsefloat with no other need for training? You just have to watch the number of SUV's that jack knife at the tip, jetty and horse events every weekend to know this isnt smart.

Once a vehicle and trailer reach a GCW (gross combined weight) exceeding 4500KG an HT licence is required. And with the larger SUVs having a GVW of about 2.5 tonne, doesn't take much of a boat, dual horse float or caravan to put them over the limit. Are police doing licence checks on SUV/trailer combos that appear like they might exceed the limit?

[KLOWN]

Once a vehicle and trailer reach a GCW (gross combined weight) exceeding 4500KG an HT licence is required. And with the larger SUVs having a GVW of about 2.5 tonne, doesn't take much of a boat, dual horse float or caravan to put them over the limit. Are police doing licence checks on SUV/trailer combos that appear like they might exceed the limit?

good question. I wanna hear what some of the kb cops say on that one