Fair call for a barrier but cheese grater?

[Reckless]

Death to them. And may they burn for all eternity in a very hot fiery pit.

Amen! the're the ones that do 50k when they get to a corner aswell.

[candor]

European bikers talked Govts into springing for "cellbond composite" energy absorber padding or else mototub buffers which get rid of the grater risk.
Last I heard all "stake holders" were happy with that.

Here Govts arms should be able to be twisted especially given how they are pushing people to leave the car at home for the environment. With ACC like it is bikers deserve it.

The latest plan for road funding with the merger of transit / LTNZ is for road taxes to actually go to roading. But it will be decentralised and priorities decided by regional bodies (via regional councils I think). So says report on why LTNZ/Transit is being reconfigured.

These bodies will get funding dependent on the population / local tax take.
So this should further disadvantage low population areas even if their roads are busy with tourists or other visitors.

This should also destroy any hope of a first class National Highway system between all main centres. And will take blame off Govt for the road toll, since the responsibility buck for safer roads will be divided between many many different bodies.

I guess this means that if safe cheesegraters are wanted (via claddings) there will be no one organisation to deal with over this in the near future - instead many who will be harder to put on the spot.

We're being decentralised and divided into a bunch of principalities. No wonder this conference I'm off to is called "one nation - ten cultures".

http://www.ssc.govt.nz/display/document.asp?DocID=5917 The most mind numbing report EVER tells all about it

[Drum]

..........We're being decentralised and divided into a bunch of principalities. ....

I haven't read the report yet, but I will when I get a chance.

On the face of it this seems like a giant leap backwards.

[mdooher]

And the cost of a concrete barrier versus a wire rope barrier? It's about 5 fold.

Transit will happily install concrete barriers everywhere if you want to pay for them.

Actually the main reason the UK has decided to stop installing the wire rope barriers and to replace the ones that have been installed with concrete ones is that over their lifetime concrete is far cheaper.

Interestingly despite some saying they wouldn’t mind hitting a wire rope barrier on their bike they clearly have never hit one. One study showed an 85% chance of a limb amputation or decapitation. As long as you hit the concrete at a shallow angle you just slide along it assuming you are wearing the right gear and you haven’t angered the gods lately.

I posted the links to these studies and the press releases showing the European countries that have banned this stuff a while ago. Apparently “New Zealand conditions” are different than Europe….probably means we have unskilled managers with no balls to tell the bean counters to fuck off and leave the design of roading with engineers.

Good roads cost money. Cheap fixes cost lives.

[Drum]

Actually the main reason the UK has decided to stop installing the wire rope barriers and to replace the ones that have been installed with concrete ones is that over their lifetime concrete is far cheaper.

All I can say is that the study has also been done here and that is not the case. The life cycle cost for the wire ropes is cheaper here.

I don't think anyone wants to ride into a wire rope barrier. But given the unsavoury choice between hitting a wire rope barrier and a head on with a car, I know which I would prefer.

Here is the simple fact: There is not enough money available (for whatever reason) to install concrete barriers along our undivided highways. It is either the cheaper wire rope variety, or nothing.

Is this ideal? No. Is it reality? Yes.

You want to change the way the system works so that more money is available to install better barrier systems? Go ahead, we will all be happy.

[swbarnett]

But given the unsavoury choice between hitting a wire rope barrier and a head on with a car, I know which I would prefer.

From what I can gather the survival chances are better in a head on collision than a gentle slide into a wire rope barrier.

There is not enough money available (for whatever reason) to install concrete barriers along our undivided highways.

If all the petrol levy was put into roads as intended we'd probably have plenty.

It is either the cheaper wire rope variety, or nothing.

If this is the case then they could at least install them properly. The manufacturer stipulates a clearance of 6m (could be 6ft - bad memory) between the traffic lane and the barrier. Here there is most often no clearance when they are placed in the centre of the road.

[Drum]

"From what I can gather the survival chances are better in a head on collision than a gentle slide into a wire rope barrier".

I haven't seen any data that backs up that assumption, but I know which I would prefer.

"If all the petrol levy was put into roads as intended we'd probably have plenty".

Quite likely. Again, I say if you want to change the system go ahead. We will all be happy.

"If this is the case then they could at least install them properly. The manufacturer stipulates a clearance of 6m (could be 6ft - bad memory) between the traffic lane and the barrier. Here there is most often no clearance when they are placed in the centre of the road".

The 6m figure is not correct, but you are correct in the observation that they are seldom installed correctly. This is also done for budgetary reasons and is, in my opinion, unforgiveable.

[swbarnett]

"From what I can gather the survival chances are better in a head on collision than a gentle slide into a wire rope barrier".

I haven't seen any data that backs up that assumption, but I know which I would prefer.

Agreed, this is not based on any data. Just a personal thing that I'd rather hit something solid that I've got a fair chance of flying over than get tangled up in a wire net.

The 6m figure is not correct

Does anyone have the correct figure? I forget where I saw this.

[Drum]

Table 7.1 of Transits State Highway Geometric Design Manual specifies minimum offsets from the traffic lane depending on speed (see attached). This distance is 2m at 100 km/h. However, minimum deflection of 3m should be assumed for a wire rope barrier, because at a 2m offset the car would extend 1m into the opposing lane.

So a minimum of 3m from the edge line should be allowed. If the barrier is located on a central median then you need 3m either side, or the 6m figure that you had arrived at. Sadly, they are seldom installed to these standards.

[jafar]

Table 7.1 of Transits State Highway Geometric Design Manual specifies minimum offsets from the traffic lane depending on speed (see attached). This distance is 2m at 100 km/h. However, minimum deflection of 3m should be assumed for a wire rope barrier, because at a 2m offset the car would extend 1m into the opposing lane.

So a minimum of 3m from the edge line should be allowed. If the barrier is located on a central median then you need 3m either side, or the 6m figure that you had arrived at. Sadly, they are seldom installed to these standards.

If the TRANSIT manual states a minimum & TRANSIT installs these barriers incorrectly then wouldn't TRANSIT or their installation contractor be liable for prosecution when these barriers fail to do what they should do ??

The simple facts seem to be that these cheese slicers are designed for cars only, a runaway truck will simply run over them & into oncoming traffic.

Motorcyclist's are regarded as temporary citizens anyway, so their ability to survive a close encounter with this type of barrier doesn't matter.

Far better to spend the money on cheese slicers than decent barriers (concrete). This free's up even more money for gov't sponsored "hip-hop" tours to the states for delinquent arsewipes .

[Drum]

"If the TRANSIT manual states a minimum & TRANSIT installs these barriers incorrectly then wouldn't TRANSIT or their installation contractor be liable for prosecution when these barriers fail to do what they should do ??"

Probably. Hasn't been tested to my knowledge.

The simple facts seem to be that these cheese slicers are designed for cars only, a runaway truck will simply run over them & into oncoming traffic.

Yep, seen it happen.

Motorcyclist's are regarded as temporary citizens anyway, so their ability to survive a close encounter with this type of barrier doesn't matter.

More like we're not considered at all.

Far better to spend the money on cheese slicers than decent barriers (concrete). This free's up even more money for gov't sponsored "hip-hop" tours to the states for delinquent arsewipes

The next election ain't too far away mate.

[Pancakes]

All I can say is that the study has also been done here and that is not the case. The life cycle cost for the wire ropes is cheaper here.

I don't think anyone wants to ride into a wire rope barrier. But given the unsavoury choice between hitting a wire rope barrier and a head on with a car, I know which I would prefer.

Here is the simple fact: There is not enough money available (for whatever reason) to install concrete barriers along our undivided highways. It is either the cheaper wire rope variety, or nothing.

Is this ideal? No. Is it reality? Yes.

You want to change the way the system works so that more money is available to install better barrier systems? Go ahead, we will all be happy.

Lots of good valid comments from you Drum, rep zooming thru the interweb for you. Simon Barnett? you ride a GN now? Shiver-me-timbers! I would rather hit nothing at all if we get to pick! I've clipped a wing-mirror or two to scold the odd errant driver while I'm splitting and going the same way with maybe a 40kph speed differential and the wing mirrors give way and it can still really hurt your hand! I've never put my bike down but have crashed my bicycles (road bikes and BMX in the forrest and jumping) and not going that fast when I actually came off and it hurts fricken bad, had cracked skull, pelvis, ankles, vertibrae. If you do leap so the oncoming car hits your bike and you go over your gonna get wasted even if the next car doesn't roll right over you. If we hit anything it's gonna hurt, for a shallow angle slide the concrete would be better but NZ is rulled by accountants, the real shame is they're not even very good ones!

SWB, you should go under a wire rope fast and see if you can't get that wicked crew-cut back!!

[swbarnett]

Simon Barnett?

No, Stephen (no relation that I know of).

I would rather hit nothing at all if we get to pick!

Indeed.

If we hit anything it's gonna hurt

Agreed. Perhaps irrationaly I get the impression from the experiences of others that the injuries from an impact with a solid object are more repairable than the maiming and decapitation you will likely get from the wire ropes barriers. Also, if you head-on in to a car there's a chance you'll fly over it but you won't go over the wire rope barrier if you slide into it.

[sunhuntin]

americans are plagued by these wire ropes as well... call em frog in a blender! i thought the usa was meant to be ahead of everybody, not behind.

[kiwi cowboy]

True dat.

Hence why people do 85kph on the open road - then do 115kph when they get to passing lanes.

Wider road - perceived to be safer ergo 'lets speed up'

an ant that farrrrrrrrrrrrkn frustratin