Countersteering and leaning

[Pascal]

Hi all,

I'm new and haven't posted yet - I wanted to sit the Learner's to at least qualify for riding first, having not been on a bike for almost fifteen years (And then when I was in High School and didn't know anything). Anyway, I'm working through the Road Code so I can sit the test on Saturday morning (Have done Basic Handling, etc.) but there is one bit that seems a bit weird, so I thought I'd ask the experienced riders.

Lean by Countersteering
The best way to lean your motorcycle for a corner is to countersteer.

Countersteering is the technique where you push forward on the handlebars in the direction that you want the motorcycle to go. For example, to lean and turn to the left, you should push forward on the left handlebar.

Even though it may seem to be the 'wrong' thing to do, countersteering is the most effective means of changing direction and controlling the motorcycle.

When the motorcycle is leaned over to the correct angle for the corner, you will instinctively straighten the handlebars and the motorcycle will stabilise.

Okay, that does seem to be the 'wrong' thing to do. I have visions of kissing asphalt and leaving all sorts of scrapes all over myself and my bike.

Then and again, this is a government related publication. They shouldn't put blatantly wrong advise in there. Then and again, this is a government publication. They're not known for being right a lot of the time.

So, advise, please. Is that correct? If so, how does it work? And how would you suggest somebody tries that the very first time?

[Mom]

Hi all,

So, advise, please. Is that correct? If so, how does it work? And how would you suggest somebody tries that the very first time?

Hi Pascale, welcome to KB!

It does seem a bit weird to think you push your handlebars in the wrong direction to turn easily I agree, but it is true, and it does work.

Have a go at this. Take a left hand corner, nice and gentle lean into the turn. Do it a couple of times so you know how to lean around the bend. Now do it again but as you lean put a little bit of gentle pressure on the bar (push it away from yourself) on the clutch side of your bike. Gentle mind as this is actually very effective.

What you will discover is that the bike actually goes around that curve much easier. It really is easy, but takes a bit of practice to perfect. Once you have the skill you will use it without even being aware you are.

[nosebleed]

Pascal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C848R9xWrjc <-- Its worth a 1000 words and all that

[jrandom]

Use the site search function to find very much wisdom on the subject of countersteering.

Some argue that it doesn't exist. Others point out that shaft-driven motorcycles are, due to physics, incapable of wheelieing.

Still others just get on with riding their motorcycles while standing on the footpegs and waving to the crowd.

The last ones are really cool, so you should try to be like them.

[Pascal]

Its worth a 1000 words and all that

That was indeed worth a 1000 words. Maybe even a 1001. Thank you. And thank you for the welcome and advice Mom and jrandom.

[CookMySock]

The best way to introduce yourself to countersteering is on a straight road. Choose a long straight country road with no traffic and travel at about 70km/hr, and use only bar pushes to swap from the left to the right side of your lane - start with just gentle pushes on one bar and then the other, and watch the bike instantly respond. Once you "see" this you will find it quite intriguing, and you will have great fun doing it everywhere. It feels cool as well.

What you will have discovered, is that you can actually sit perfectly still on a bike and steer very accurately with only with the bars, so try doing this everywhere you go, until it feels normal. Resist the temptation to apex corners (for now) and concentrate on accurately maintaining your position in your half-lane, until you are the picture of accuracy, and you can choose precisely and exactly the line you will take. Don't try to add speed.

This sets an important mode in your brain - so should you ever get a fright on your bike you will likely revert to countersteering by default, rather than standing the bike upright and going straight ahead. Owch!

And forget all about that "countersteering will make you drop your bike - don't try this at home" crap, that is a lot of bullshit. It is NOT countersteering that will get you in the crap much more quickly at highway speeds.

Hey welcome to KB as well. Have a good time!

Steve

[nodrog:Me]

The best way to introduce yourself to countersteering is on a straight road. Choose a long straight country road with no traffic and travel at about 70km/hr, and use only bar pushes to swap from the left to the right side of your lane - start with just gentle pushes on one bar and then the other, and watch the bike instantly respond. Once you "see" this you will find it quite intriguing, and you will have great fun doing it everywhere. It feels cool as well.

What you will have discovered, is that you can actually sit perfectly still on a bike and steer very accurately with only with the bars, so try doing this everywhere you go, until it feels normal. Resist the temptation to apex corners (for now) and concentrate on accurately maintaining your position in your half-lane, until you are the picture of accuracy, and you can choose precisely and exactly the line you will take. Don't try to add speed.

This sets an important mode in your brain - so should you ever get a fright on your bike you will likely revert to countersteering by default, rather than standing the bike upright and going straight ahead. Owch!

And forget all about that "countersteering will make you drop your bike - don't try this at home" crap, that is a lot of bullshit. It is NOT countersteering that will get you in the crap much more quickly at highway speeds.

Hey welcome to KB as well. Have a good time!

Steve

what the fuck are you doing giving riding advice? arnet you the one who promotes looking at the scenery whilst travelling around one of the most notorious routes in the country? and what state is your bike in again?

maybe you should leave the advice to sombody who has been riding for more than 6 months.

P.S. report it all you like, but this post isnt abuse, it contains serious questions which need answers so people can form an opinion as to wether or not they should be listening to your ramblings.

[slimjim]

welcome too..... as you will see.... some good will come from all...take it easy out here...its a jungle.....O merry christmas too....

[Usarka]

I almost crashed looking at scenery while following a slow car around some tight roads.

On topic: countersteering saved me from flying off mr cliff on the other side of the road. Once you get a bit more practice work with the idea that more throttle = good if you need to turn quicker (don't take my ramblings for it i'm hung over to fuck and back).

[MSTRS:Me]

<-- Its worth a 1000 words and all that

I don't agree with the comment that it occurs at all speeds. I will contend that in the example of 3mph (5kph) that the side twitches were simply the rider keeping his balance and that they did not set up his turn. Effectively CS comes into play at around 20kph.
The other thing I would add is that to lean the bike for a turn requires some degree of CS. There are those that say they don't CS...BS I say. It is possible to lean a bike and continue in a straight line (you must use body position as a counterweight) BUT give the 'downhill' bar a nudge forward and the bike will then commence turning in the direction the bike is leaning.

[Jantar]

I don't agree with the comment that it occurs at all speeds. I will contend that in the example of 3mph (5kph) that the side twitches were simply the rider keeping his balance and that they did not set up his turn. Effectively CS comes into play at around 20kph.....

True counter steering is a result of centrifugal progression, so MSTRS is quite correct. Remember that counter steering isn't just to set up the lean, it is also to recover from it afterwards. For any wheel diameter/weight combination there is a specific speed at which counter steering will both assist the turn and recover. I have ridden bikes where this doesn't happen till close to 40 kmh, while on other bikes it is under 15 kmh.

OK, this may be to technical for a rider who just wants to get out there and do it without calculating rotational inertia formulae in his head at the same time. So what I suggest is that you get to know your own bike: See what it feels like in different corners and at different speeds. Effectively let riding become second nature and leave the whys and where-fores for online argument.

[MyGSXF:Me]

Effectively CS comes into play at around 20kph.
The other thing I would add is that to lean the bike for a turn requires some degree of CS.

+1

It works because when you temporarily turn your bike in the opposite, it drops the tyre down on to the side wall, where the circumference is smaller.. & thus it turns. It is important to practice counter stearing! You must first look in the direction you want to go.. ie: look right.. push right.. go right!

Where you LOOK is where you will go!

Find yourself a quiet carpark/tennis courts & practice. Keep your eyes UP at all times, looking ahead of you NOT at the ground.. or you will go down!

Ride up & down GENTLY pushing on the bars, one side then the other & you will do a gentle weave up the court. As you feel more confident, you can gradually push the bars harder & your weaves will become more pronounced! Take it easy & do it gradually!!

Find yourself a local mentor & book in some time!!

oh.. & ENJOY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Badjelly]

Then and again, this is a government related publication. They shouldn't put blatantly wrong advise in there. Then and again, this is a government publication. They're not known for being right a lot of the time.

I hate to have to tell you this, but on this one the Government is right. Who woulda thunk it?

[Ixion]

This is one of those things that you do not want to try to work out how it works. Just accept as a matter of faith , which is more than Norman blood, that it does. Except for me: I am so old that it had not been invented when I learned to ride, so none of my older bikes had the countersteering attachment. Consequently, I still disconnect it on my current bikes. I ride so slowly that the device is ineffective anyway.

Only three people have ever understood countersteering : The Prince Consort, who is dead, a German professor who went insane, and Lord Palmerston, who is trapped in a endless countersteering loop between Palmerston and Palmerston North and has not emerged from Q space in the last 100 years (and then only to take a pee and grope the Queen)

[davebullet]

Where you LOOK is where you will go!

Find yourself a quiet carpark/tennis courts & practice. Keep your eyes UP at all times, looking ahead of you NOT at the ground.. or you will go down!

That's the single most important thing I reckon. Not only do you look where you want to go, but your eyes use the horizon for balance.