The Bum Steer

[Grub]

I've been watching and reading all the countersteering threads of late and someone's comment "... if you're getting around corners, then you must be coutersteering, can't be done otherwise ..." has prompted me to post a counter-view on counter-steering.

I believe the countersteer that initiates the turn is a bad substitute for poor body position and technique. Hence "The Bum Steer". A turn that is initiated by loading up the "inside bum cheek" does not need counter steering input. Before the howls of Indignation and Outrage gather volume, I do agree that you can use small countersteering adjustments. I just don't agree that it is the only way to initiatre a turn ... back to The Bum Steer.

Watch the top racers, watch the best of them Casey Stoner. Their bodies are on the inside of the bike before they tip in for the corner. In other words, they have loaded up the inside bum cheek and their weight is on the inside of the bike. They are pushing the bars up to hold the bike straight waiting for the tip in. It is poised like a cat and being help up from falling into the corner. As soon as the tip in point is reached, the arms are relaxed and the bike falls into the corner using the weight of the rider. Power is applied to hold it from falling too far thus getting the power down early and the bike under perfect control for driving out of the turn.

Think about the dynamics of this. The counter-steer is using gyroscopic precession to apply a directional force from the application of opposing forces. Doing so unsettles the bikle, you are applying a side-load to the front tyre that doesn't need to be there. The Bum Steer on the other hand is simply letting the bike fall into a position to cut the corner in a totally natural way. All the forces are acting in unision and towards the apex of the corner. If it didn't work, racers wouldn't be using it (watch the MotoGP slow motions to see it in action).

So, how does this apply to the road. Well I've been using the technique for a year and perfected it on my daily runs over Paekakariki Hill Rd - there's not a better test.

On the road it's not about getting off your seat (but I do that too), it's just about leaning your shoulders to the inside just a fraction as you approach the corner. This loads up the inside bum cheek. When you feel the apex has arrived (and with this technique you can go in much deeper) all you have to do is pull the bike down with you. It's fluid, very quick and brilliantly confidence-building.

The counter-steer by its very nature tips the bike into the corner but leaves the rider upright with the outside bum cheek loaded up! This puts the rider's weight in a place where it is trying to stand the bike up while everything else is trying to get around the corner. It just can't be right.

Again, this is not a Ban Countersteering message. I use it all the time for small adjustments and positioning but I truely believe it is a dangerous practice for tipping into corners - there's too much physics working against the natural dynamics of the bike. You can tell the obsessive counter-steerers, they're the ones who look like motorcrossers when you're following them on the road - body upright while they push the bike down in a desperate attempt to carver the corner.

I post this because I am genuinely worried about people training themselves to use unbalanced and contradictory forces to get them into a corner - a process which naturally unsettles a bike.

Several sacred cows have been harmed in the preparation of this message.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but green bling will never hurt me

[quallman1234]

Never liked the Counter-Steer tip in technique, Totally agreed that a little bit of inside force feels a lot more confident verus Tip in by pushing at the bars.

A mixture works the charm.

You going to give bucketering a go on the Nadsty bucket?

[HDTboy]

Are you trying to say that people racing don't actively countersteer?

[Grub]

Are you trying to say that people racing don't actively countersteer?

No, not at all but watch the way they approach the corner and tip in, it is not by countersteering and that's what some people are being told is the only way to turn into a corner. The countersteer tip-in leaves the bike leaning and the rider upright.

[HDTboy]

Countersteering, and the no bullshit bike

[HDTboy]

No, not at all but watch the way they approach the corner and tip in, it is not by countersteering and that's what some people are being told is the only way to turn into a corner.

It is. The funny thing is that you are doing it when you shift your weight. to keep the bike going straight, you now need to countersteer the opposite way to where your weight is. As soon as you get to the corner, you align your hands with your shoulders, which are cocked in the direction of the corner, viola you're countersteering without knowing it

[HDTboy]

Ixion did some research

[kiwibryn]

Damn.. so the fact I use body english AND counter-steer makes me... what?
I use both in harmony, the body english and the counter into, during and out... It is the technique I learned to use before I knew what it was called. If I need to tighten the corner I lean harder and tap the front brake. The only bins I've had have been through foreign objects, oil slicks or (once) seized motor.

[Grub]

I'm fully aware this is going to fall into a blind catholic vs protestant type slanging session. All I ask is that people don't blindly defend or promote one point of view without discussing the physics of the alternatives.

Also take the time to look at gyroscopic precession and understand what it is. That act of applying the coutersteering force to the bars applies an equal and opposite force at 90deg to the input point. These are significant forces.

[HDTboy]

Damn.. so the fact I use body english AND counter-steer makes me... what?
I use both in harmony, the body english and the counter into, during and out... It is the technique I learned to use before I knew what it was called. If I need to tighten the corner I lean harder and tap the front brake. The only bins I've had have been through foreign objects, oil slicks or (once) seized motor.

That would make you as normal as the other 70% of motorcyclists who pay attention to the control inputs they are making.
I've had a few crashes, one thing I've learnt is not to use the front brake to tighten my line, more gas does it better.

[Grub]

Damn.. so the fact I use body english AND counter-steer makes me... what?
I use both in harmony, the body english and the counter into, during and out... It is the technique I learned to use before I knew what it was called. If I need to tighten the corner I lean harder and tap the front brake. The only bins I've had have been through foreign objects, oil slicks or (once) seized motor.

And I would say ... that's the perfect answer! You're doing what feels right, balances the bike and comes instinctively.

Bling awarded

[HDTboy]

I'm fully aware this is going to fall into a blind catholic vs protestant type slanging session. All I ask is that people don't blindly defend or promote one point of view without discussing the physics of the alternatives.

Also take the time to look at gyroscopic precession and understand what it is. That act of applying the coutersteering force to the bars applies an equal and opposite force at 90deg to the input point. These are significant forces.

I''m not in it for the religion. If you read the link with Ixion's name, you'll realise that you do actually countersteer too. Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

[kiwibryn]

That would make you as normal as the other 70% of motorcyclists who pay attention to the control inputs they are making.
I've had a few crashes, one thing I've learnt is not to use the front brake to tighten my line, more gas does it better.

Oh ok, thanx for the tip... mind you, there isn't a lot of grunt in a CX and I am usually halfway through when I realise I might have been going a little hot in too high a gear... still, so far, no stack.. (crosses fingers and looks inncent)

[Grub]

I''m not in it for the religion, If you read the link with Ixion's name, you'll realise that you do actually countersteer too. Just because you don't notice it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Read the original post. It says I do use and recommends using countersteer.

This discussion is about people who use it as their only means of tipping into corners and particularly the thread about someone desperately trying to use it because someone has said it is the only way! Bad bad bad.

There two people on the Wellingtn Wednesday rides who look both rediculous and dangerous with their extreme countersteering flicks. It's scary.

[Grub]

I am usually halfway through when I realise I might have been going a little hot in too high a gear

Because you are already using 'body english' your shoulders will already be on the inside of the bike and the weight will be on yer inside cheek. If you get into the position of a tightening line, just relax your elbows & shoulders a little more and the bike will tuck in nicely with a wee touch of power. It's a beautiful feeling