The lies They tell us

[idleidolidyll]

Here's something interesting.

I'm sure most people realise that the figures quoted for horsepower and weight by many manufacturers are stretching reality to its breaking point.
I mean, what use is a dry weight figure when the bike is drained of water, oil, fork and shock oil, brake fluid etc? You can't start that bike up, it would seize in a minute and you certainly can't ride it.

Well in the latest issue of Rapid Bike there's an article on the new CBR600. In the article the weight issue is discussed and the dry weight number quoted by Honda for the 07 CBR is just 155kg. HOWEVER, Honda has now come clean and is quoting a ready to ride kerb weight of 184kg! That means to get the 'dry weight' figure, they drained almost 30kg of fluid from the bike! 30kg!!
Some Euro marques only quote ready to ride weights, notably BMW and KTM.

In comparison to the new CBR600's 184kg, my new KTM 950 Supermoto weighs 191kg ready to ride, a figure confirmed to within a few percent by magazine tests. I always knew the Japanese, Italian, Brit numbers were bogus but I didn't think they were quite THAT bogus!
If this formula is correct, an R1 Yamaha and Suzuki GSXR really weigh more like 200kg ready to ride! NOT their quoted weights of 165-170kg.

Of course there's another number most factories lie about too: horsepower.
Again, the Japanese factories test their motors with all ancillary equipment removed (alternator etc) and measure at the crank not the back wheel where we use that power. A Yammy R1 quoted as having about 180BHP therefore may only have 150 at the back wheel (still a lot but not what we are lead to believe).
Again, KTM and a tiny few others differ from the practice of fudging figures. KTM quotes horsepower at the back wheel on a run in motor. My bike is rated at 95bhp at the back wheel (some magazines have tested rear wheel power and come up with almost the same number on fresh motors) which is probably pretty much the same as that new CBR600 which is rated at 118bhp at the crank. Of course the 950SM is built for torque and has way more than the CBR making it much easier to use on the road.
I think KTM and BMW may suffer sometimes for their honesty. The KTM SuperDuke for instance only claims 118bhp while its opposition say Aprilia for the Tuono claim 130bhp+. I recall a Tuono on the Dyno at AMPS getting 114bhp at the rear wheel which is not a surprise given that both the Tuono and the Superduke are fuel injected 1000cc Vee Twin motors.

Life would be a lot simpler if all the manufacturers used the same method to quote weights and bhp; I'd suggest the reality based methods used by KTM are what we need to hear, not the outrageous numbers we'll never feel beneath our bums.

[jahrasti]

That is a good article you wrote. As long as they are allowed to quote dry weight etc then unfortunately what ever sells bikes will be used.

[Motu]

It's relative....if everyone measures the same way.In the big car HP figure race in the 1960's there were some obvious spurious claims.Now you will find figures for cars much more realistic as they test with water pumps and altenator etc fitted.Same with compression ratios - all Japanese 2 strokes have ''adjusted'' compression figures,the Euros real compression - so long as you know what you are looking it's OK.

I weighed my Yamaha DT230 with all fluids and a litre of fuel,and the bike was less than 2kg more than listed - pretty damn close I reckon.

[Bob]

As long as it isn't a lie, then yup, they can use it as long as it is made clear - I don't know about NZ mags, but UK mags are pretty good at saying "It makes 180bhp at the crank, so realistically about 150 at the rear wheel".

Of course, the most recent stretching of the truth - that got a company in trouble - was Yamaha and their "The R6 revs to 17,500 revs". As it is panto season... OH NO IT DIDN'T! Real life showed it redlined at 16K - but the rev counter displayed an over-revving of 17.50. This wouldn't have been too bad, aside from no-one pointing this out to Yamaha USA, who used this as an advertising feature. And, if I recall my news item correctly, had to offer refunds and compensation to people that bought the bike.

Oops. Serves them right though.

[Bob]

Just found my original news piece:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ight=yamaha+r6

Remembered it pretty much right! Really dumb move on their part though.

[WINJA]

Ktm and bmw Dont Suffer From Their Honesty , I Think One Suffers From A Perceived Lack Of Parts Back Up And Both Suffer From Price Tag To Performance Ratio , Personally Both Those Marques Would Be On My Keeper List , I Got A Gsxr1000 At The Mo But I Cant See It Being The Bike I Want To Keep For The Rest Of My Life

[Nutter34]

Ktm and bmw Dont Suffer From Their Honesty , I Think One Suffers From A Perceived Lack Of Parts Back Up And Both Suffer From Price Tag To Performance Ratio , Personally Both Those Marques Would Be On My Keeper List , I Got A Gsxr1000 At The Mo But I Cant See It Being The Bike I Want To Keep For The Rest Of My Life

Who are you and what did you do with the proper Winja? You're making way too much sense lately!

[Clivoris]

What really pisses me off is that since getting my bike I still haven't been able to wheely it through deserted factories or been chased by gorgeous Italian women. Knew I should have saved up for an 06.
What happened to the days when we could trust advertisers?

[crack]

Well done:

In an ideal world, one with free trade and all that, it would be good for all those competing in the same industry to operate to an "approved" industry standard, "BUT" thats in an "Ideal World". (Then we would have Cartels)

This argument about advertised motorcycle statistics has been around since as long as I can remember.

I do agree with you that the Europeans have a "tendency" to advertise more honestly.

[Bonez]

Good write up. Personnally I folk believe whats in marketing prurbs they're fair game. Not every motorcycle has the same HP as the next one on the production line. So expecting the KTM on the shop floor to have the same HP as in the marketing plurbs is kidding yourself. It could be less it could be more ("almost the same" as you've pointed out). Sounds good around the rally fire with a few Woodstock down though.

Take the things for a ride, if you like it and can afford it get it.

Oh, and Winja should just buy a Honda.

[WINJA]

Good write up. Personnally I folk believe whats in marketing prurbs they're fair game. Not every motorcycle has the same HP as the next one on the production line. So expecting the KTM on the shop floor to have the same HP as in the marketing plurbs is kidding yourself. It could be less it could be more ("almost the same" as you've pointed out). Sounds good around the rally fire with a few Woodstock down though.

Take the things for a ride, if you like it and can afford it get it.

Oh, and Winja should just buy a Honda.

IVE HAD 2 BLADES , NEVER AGAIN

[terbang]

Some excellent questions posed there. Its called marketing and marketing is not really about telling the whole truth. I look at it this way, the floor cleaner I just got is advertising that it has new improved extra ammonia in it. I've been listening to them say that for damn neat 30 years and If they were telling the truth then I suspect that the product would have so much grease cutting formula in it that it would probably burn a hole in my floor by now. But it doesn't, its still much the same as it was 30 years ago. Marketing people dont actually tell lies but they don't really tell us the truth either. Its all smoke and mirrors stuff to me. How many times have you heard a car salesman tell you, unless he was trying to steer you towards something more expensive, that it was a bad model and that you wouldn't like it.
My whole life has been associated with something realistic and tactile (driving planes) you can't kid yerself or you and lots of others die. So the machinations of the advertising world leave me a bit cold.

[FilthyLuka]

they drained almost 30kg of fluid from the bike! 30kg!!

okay... err... ballpark figures here... lets say.. 2 and a half litres of oil... thats 2.5 kgs, err (i dont know actuall figures) a 16 litre fuel tank, thats another 16kgs, so far were at 18, front and rear brake fluid... 1 kg maybe? 1.5? nah, wont use 1.5 litres of brake fluid, so lets say one litre just to make calculations easy...

were now at 19.5 kgs... hmm... where to find the other 10...

Denis

[The_Dover]

fork oil, coolant.

[imdying]

Doesn't really matter. Compariing weight is for train spotters, and spotty youths that can't yet afford to buy them only talk about it. The Japanese quoted weights are relevant to the other Japanese manufacturers, and given that they can only drain so much out, that's a good a relative comparison as any. Ready to ride figures aren't that wonderful either, nobody rides with a full tank for that long.

Reality methods are as equally irrelevant as the stripped back method. Neither is important when you're riding.