Thinking of getting vaccinated?

[husaberg]

That's quite a fertile* imagination you've got going there.

*(Fertilised with shit).


Fraud or misrepresentation occurs when one person intentionally misrepresents some important fact, intending to get a second person to act in a certain way. In order to sue someone for fraud or misrepresentation, the second person must have acted on the false information the first person gave and suffered some kind of damages, such as a physical injury or a financial loss, as a result.
In most fraud cases, the important fact or facts are misrepresented because the first person knows the second person won’t do what the first person wants if he knows what the true facts are.
In most U.S. states, an injured plaintiff attempting to prove a fraud or misrepresentation claim in court must prove that:
The defendant made a false representation (either a statement or other communication) of a material fact, or a fact that affected what the plaintiff would do;
When the defendant made the statement, he was trying to get the plaintiff to act a certain way;
The plaintiff reasonably relied on the statement when deciding how to act;
The plaintiff acted in a way he wouldn’t have if he had known the true facts; and
The plaintiff suffered injury as a result of relying on the falsely represented fact


In addition, to prove fraud the plaintiff must show not only that he did rely on the defendant’s false or misleading statement, but that it was reasonable for him to rely on that statement.


It took nearly two decades for the UK immunization rates to recover. By the end, UK families had experienced more than 12,000 cases of measles, hundreds of hospitalizations — many with serious complications — and at least three deaths.

So there is at least 12000 potential people to sue him there alone.

[Katman]

In most U.S. states, an injured plaintiff attempting to prove a fraud or misrepresentation claim in court must prove that:
The defendant made a false representation (either a statement or other communication) of a material fact, or a fact that affected what the plaintiff would do;
When the defendant made the statement, he was trying to get the plaintiff to act a certain way;
The plaintiff reasonably relied on the statement when deciding how to act;
The plaintiff acted in a way he wouldn’t have if he had known the true facts; and
The plaintiff suffered injury as a result of relying on the falsely represented fact

And yet, in 20 years it hasn't happened.

But just keep clutching at those straws.

[husaberg]

And yet, in 20 years it hasn't happened.

But just keep clutching at those straws.

A minute ago you said they couldnt now you appear to have changed tacts again.
It hasnt happened yet or if it has he may have settled out of court.
I doubt most victims of his fraud even realised he was making so much money it would be worth suing him. It certainly appears to be worthwhile doing so now. given his ability to contribute 50K to trumps campain and his 10K speaking engagements and movie deals
It would be rather just for it to happen. eggs like you can pay for his legal costs

[Katman]

It hasnt happened yet or if it has he may have settled out of court.

Keep clutching at those straws.

[Katman]

So there is at least 12000 potential people to sue him there alone.

And yet, in 20 years, no-one has.

Does that tell you anything?

[husaberg]

And yet, in 20 years, no-one has.

Does that tell you anything?

it was only a little over 10 years ago he was proven to be a fraud even less that he was proven to be profiting from his fraud.
Actually it was less


The GMC panel handed down its findings on January 28, 2010, concluding that Dr. Wakefield had been dishonest, violated basic research ethics rules, and showed a “callous disregard” for the suffering of children involved in his research.32 Included among them were four different proven findings of dishonesty against Dr. Wakefield, all proven to a standard of criminal fault—akin to “beyond a reasonable doubt” in the United States.33 Among other things, the panel found that Dr. Wakefield improperly subjected some children to invasive medical procedures such as colonoscopies and MRI scans. Dr. Wakefield also paid children at his son’s birthday party to have blood drawn for research purposes. The GMC panel found that Dr. Wakefield’s Lancet research was “dishonest,” “irresponsible,” “misleading,” and inaccurate. The panel found that Dr. Wakefield improperly failed to disclose his connections to planned litigation, his patents for a competing vaccine, and the bias inherent in his selection of study subjects. The GMC panel further found that Dr. Wakefield’s conduct “was such as to bring the medical profession into disrepute.”

[Katman]

it was only a little over 10 years ago he was proven to be a fraud even less that he was proven to be profiting from his fraud

Seriously, it's like you don't even notice how deep the hole's getting.

You're a special breed of dumb.

[husaberg]

Seriously, it's like you don't even notice how deep the hole's getting.

You're a special breed of dumb.

A special kind of dumb would be the guy using what has been as proven to be fraudulent information to support a theory that vaccinations are dangerous.:lol:
So has Andrew Wakefeilds vaccination been proven to be fraudulent and was Andrew Wakefeild removed as a Doctor as a result of this fraud.
You always avoid these salient points.

[Katman]

A specisl kind of dumb

:facepalm:

[TheDemonLord]

Oh well, 20 years later and the controversy shows no signs of abating. In fact it appears to be gathering support.

I suspect one day Andrew Wakefield will have the last laugh - although I also suspect he won't actually be laughing about it.

It's almost like Herd Immunity is a thing and it's protecting most of the Fuckwits from the consequences of their Fuckwittery.

No, the people who won't be laughing are the Parents who've had to see their 7 month old child cough so hard that the lining of the lungs tear, filling up with fluid and slowly drowning them to death with their own blood.

Neither are People like Tarsha Boniface laughing.

The very real fact is that when Vaccination rates are above 90%, there were zero deaths for a period of 10+ years in the UK from Meningitis. Just take a look at Northland - Fuckwit central, they've swallowed the Anti-vax pill and now are starting to pay the price for the consequences of their Fuckwittery. It would be hilariously karmic, if it wasn't for the small fact of Parents having to bury their Children.

Do you know where the Controversy doesn't exist? In places where they don't have easy access to Vaccines and the Infant mortality rate is high and Parents regularly have to deal with the death of a Child, but in the west, guarded by the rest of us who are Vaccinated and protected by modern medicine - they stupidly decry the very thing that has given them such a high standard of living.

[Katman]

It would be hilariously karmic, if it wasn't for the small fact of Parents having to bury their Children.

Do you know where the Controversy doesn't exist? In places where they don't have easy access to Vaccines and the Infant mortality rate is high and Parents regularly have to deal with the death of a Child, but in the west, guarded by the rest of us who are Vaccinated and protected by modern medicine - they stupidly decry the very thing that has given them such a high standard of living.

That's an interesting claim - especially coming from someone who sees the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children as 'acceptable'.

[TheDemonLord]

That's an interesting claim - especially coming from someone who sees the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children as 'acceptable'.

Indeed, coming from the Pacifist who would stand by and let millions be slaughtered because they are too scared to use force that might Hurt someone Innocent.

If it makes you feel better - I chalk up deaths due to anaphylactic shock from a component in a Vaccine in the same category of 'acceptable' to that supposed 500,000 figure.

One could express is Mathematically:

If doing something results in 500,000 dead (and I dispute that figure)
And doing nothing results in 750,000 dead (A figure based on the activities of the Saddamn prior to the first Gulf War and extrapolated out)

Since 750,000 is greater than 500,000, Then the correct course of action to minimize Human suffering and death is to do something.

And before you claim it's the evil West that inflicted these Terrors on the Poor Iraqi Children, who were so dearly loved by Saddamn and the Country - Just remember that one of the preferred methods of getting Parents to talk was to Gouge their children's eyes out in front of them.

How does that tally with you? Would you stand by and do nothing letting the Torture continue or would you order a guided bomb attack, killing the Torturers and preventing further atrocities?

[Katman]

Indeed, coming from the Pacifist who would stand by and let millions be slaughtered because they are too scared to use force that might Hurt someone Innocent.

If it makes you feel better - I chalk up deaths due to anaphylactic shock from a component in a Vaccine in the same category of 'acceptable' to that supposed 500,000 figure.

One could express is Mathematically:

If doing something results in 500,000 dead (and I dispute that figure)
And doing nothing results in 750,000 dead (A figure based on the activities of the Saddamn prior to the first Gulf War and extrapolated out)

Since 750,000 is greater than 500,000, Then the correct course of action to minimize Human suffering and death is to do something.

And before you claim it's the evil West that inflicted these Terrors on the Poor Iraqi Children, who were so dearly loved by Saddamn and the Country - Just remember that one of the preferred methods of getting Parents to talk was to Gouge their children's eyes out in front of them.

How does that tally with you? Would you stand by and do nothing letting the Torture continue or would you order a guided bomb attack, killing the Torturers and preventing further atrocities?

Dude, ease back on the autism.

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, ease back on the autism.

Translation: "I've got nothing intelligent to reply with so I'll hurrr durrr Autism"

[husaberg]

Translation: "I've got nothing intelligent to reply with so I'll hurrr durrr Autism"

He at least has that in common with Wakefield

[TheDemonLord]

He at least has that in common with Wakefield

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7DgRmpCYAAsJvd.jpg

[husaberg]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7DgRmpCYAAsJvd.jpg

To be fair to Wakefeild though he was smart enough to become a doctor but too greedy and dishonest and generally to much of a despicable human being to stay one.
In comparison the high point of Stevo's academia was a B1 in School cert English and aspires to be a despicable sub human narcissistic troll.

[Katman]

If it makes you feel better - I chalk up deaths due to anaphylactic shock from a component in a Vaccine in the same category of 'acceptable' to that supposed 500,000 figure.

Ok, so dying from a vaccination is 'acceptable' to you.

What about all those who have suffered traumatic developmental issues immediately after vaccination?

I suppose that's fine by you too - just as long as it's someone else's child.

[Drew]

Jesus Christ. This argument is still going.

[Katman]

Jesus Christ. This argument is still going.

Like I've already said Drew, it's been going for 20 years now and shows no sign of abating.

[Drew]

Like I've already said Drew, it's been going for 20 years now and shows no sign of abating.

It will, when the anti crowds children start getting fucked up by polio.

[husaberg]

Ok, so dying from a vaccination is 'acceptable' to you.

What about all those who have suffered traumatic developmental issues immediately after vaccination?

I suppose that's fine by you too - just as long as it's someone else's child.

Do you believe your opinion is more educated and somehow able to give advice given you are not a doctor or have any relevant medical training nor are you a parent or a legal guardian of a child or its seems are able to rationalise basic risks
than either a Doctor or medical professional or a parent does.
Are you really that out of touch with reality that do you really believe your opinion has greater merit or indeed any merit at all than a doctor or parent on vaccination of children under their care?


Like I've already said Drew, it's been going for 20 years now and shows no sign of abating.

Reality suggests otherwise
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9705374/MMR-uptake-rates-finally-recovered-from-Wakefield-scandal-figures-show.html
85% of the entire worlds children are currently vaccinated for Measles prior to one year
https://d33wubrfki0l68.cloudfront.net/4dab1b08dafea66b45eea5b89d37e321d8a8c1a6/134cd/exports/share-that-disagrees-that-vaccines-are-safe_v1_850x600.svg
In the UK

Coverage of MMR vaccine for children reaching their second birthday has risen from a low of 79.9% in 2003/4, data from the Information Centre show. It stood at 88.2% in 2009/10 and to 89.1% in 2010/11, according to figures reported by PCTs.
But this level of coverage is still lower than that seen in the mid 1990s, when over 90% of children received the MMR vaccine. It is also below the World Health Organization target of 95% coverage.
Andrew Wakefield's research findings, published in The Lancet in 1998, led to a drop in MMR vaccination rates and a rise in measles cases as well as confrontations between GPs and the parents of babies due for their MMR jabs.
The Information Centre figures show that, at the age of five, 91.9% of children had received their first dose of MMR, but only 84.2% had completed the recommended schedule of two doses by this age.

Considering the world wide campaign of misinformation wakefeild started and continues to spread these results prove support for the antivaxers is more a lunatic fringe than widespread support.
Same as the flat earthers the 911 truthers and the the world is run by shape shifting lizard and jews fringe groups.

[TheDemonLord]

Ok, so dying from a vaccination is 'acceptable' to you.

What about all those who have suffered traumatic developmental issues immediately after vaccination?

I suppose that's fine by you too - just as long as it's someone else's child.

Except I take the same risks when it comes to my Children... I take my Child in my Car, I take my Child to a Playground.

For comparison - Risk of Death from a Severe Allergic reaction from a Vaccine: 1 in a Million. Risk of Death from a Car Accident 1 in 45,000 - You drive on the roads yes?

However, there is a very Key statement missing from what you've said:

Compared to what?

A Few children dieing from a severe Allergic reaction (which is something that cannot be known and something that has a procedure in place for dealing with) is acceptable when the alternative is hundreds or Thousands of Children dieing from something that is entirely preventable.

So what would you rather: 4 Children a year (potentially) dying or over 1,000 a year dying (Minimum) - Take your pick.

[Katman]

So what would you rather: 4 Children a year (potentially) dying or over 1,000 a year dying (Minimum) - Take your pick.

Death from measles versus death from the measles vaccine in America.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rfCu9dwb7Fo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[TheDemonLord]

Death from measles versus death from the measles vaccine in America.

You don't see the glaring logical error there? Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it.

Let me put it in a way you will understand:

The fuckwit may aswell have said "There are X number of Deaths a year from Motorcyclists wearing Helmets, but only Y number of Deaths a year from Motorcyclists who don't wear Helmets. X is far bigger than Y, therefore we shouldn't wear Motorcycle Helmets"

[Katman]

You don't see the glaring logical error there? Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it.

Let me put it in a way you will understand:

The fuckwit may aswell have said "There are X number of Deaths a year from Motorcyclists wearing Helmets, but only Y number of Deaths a year from Motorcyclists who don't wear Helmets. X is far bigger than Y, therefore we shouldn't wear Motorcycle Helmets"

Two deaths in the last 15 years in America due to measles versus 127 deaths attributed to the measles vaccine in the same time period.

[husaberg]

Death from measles versus death from the measles vaccine in America.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rfCu9dwb7Fo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Two deaths in the last 15 years in America due to measles versus 127 deaths attributed to the measles vaccine in the same time period.

Nice bit of scaremongering you of course would not notice that he is comparing meaasles deaths where? note he doesnt say the usa due to vaccine vs deaths in a country where meassles vaccine is in widespread use.

Lets see worldwide death figures
Measles deaths

In 1980, 2.6 million people died of it, and in 1990, 545,000 died; by 2014, global vaccination programs had reduced the number of deaths
2017, there were 110 000 measles deaths globally, mostly among children under the age of five.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 80% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2017 worldwide.
In 2017, about 85% of the world's children received one dose of measles vaccine by their first birthday through routine health services – up from 72% in 2000.
During 2000-2017, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 21.1 million deaths making measles vaccine one of the best buys in public health.

You really are not very bright at all are you.

World wide 200-2017 21 million deaths prevented by vacine compared to 400 deaths at most/year can you not figure out the maths

[WALRUS]

There have been 2 deaths linked to measles in the last 15 years -- both in people with other ailments that contributed to the deaths.
But there have been 127 deaths linked to the measles VACCINE.

Surely that would be because several tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people get the vaccine, some people react badly but the rest of them don't and then continue to not die of Measles?

I suspect, and this is a bit of guesswork, that if suddenly the vaccine was taken away, a lot more than 127 people over 15 years will die of the disease?

[Katman]

I suspect, and this is a bit of guesswork, that if suddenly the vaccine was taken away, a lot more than 127 people over 15 years will die of the disease?

The death rate from measles had been in sharp decline for about 30 years before the vaccine was even discovered.

[TheDemonLord]

Two deaths in the last 15 years in America due to measles versus 127 deaths attributed to the measles vaccine in the same time period.

So lets get rid of Helmets then because more people die who are wearing Helmets....

(It's the Exact same argument, predicated on the exact same logical fallacy)

[Katman]

(It's the Exact same argument, predicated on the exact same logical fallacy)

Well it's not really, is it?

People don't die because of the helmet they're wearing.

[husaberg]

So lets get rid of Helmets then because more people die who are wearing Helmets....

(It's the Exact same argument, predicated on the exact same logical fallacy)

Here is an explanation of how the antivaxers last ploy is debunked
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2010/03/29/the-intellectual-dishonesty-of-the-vacci/

plus
Vaccines didn’t save us – it was improved living conditions, better nutrition, indoor plumbing, and sanitation.
If this were true, then how come these factors didn’t also stop RSV, norovirus, HIV, and other non-vaccine-preventable diseases?

Know why you don’t hear about a lot of kids getting tetanus, rabies and other vaccine-preventable diseases anymore?

This page is a goldmine
https://vaxopedia.org/2018/07/29/anti-vaccine-points-refuted-a-thousand-times/

So lets get rid of Helmets then because more people die who are wearing Helmets....

(It's the Exact same argument, predicated on the exact same logical fallacy)
If only wakefeild had that information he could have hand-selected the ones who died wearing helmets that also had autism and he could produce another paper saying helmet wearing caused their autism.

[TheDemonLord]

Well it's not really, is it?

People don't die because of the helmet they're wearing.

Helmets reduce Situational Awareness. Helmets lead to a sense of safety, prompting the wearer to take greater risks.

It.
Is.
The.
Exact.
Same.
Stupid.
Fucking.
Argument.

[WALRUS]

100% of people who die were at one point alive. All we need to do is make sure that nobody is alive and then nobody can die. Simples! :)

(Before anyone kicks up a stink at that, I am of course being facetious)

[Katman]

Helmets reduce Situational Awareness. Helmets lead to a sense of safety, prompting the wearer to take greater risks.

It.
Is.
The.
Exact.
Same.
Stupid.
Fucking.
Argument.

But they don't die because of the helmet.

[TheDemonLord]

But they don't die because of the helmet.

Don't they?

You trying to arbitrarily drew a demarcation line in order to avoid admitting the point that your dumbfuck YT video was built upon quite literally one of the most stupid fallacious premises?

Not gonna fly:

The Kids didn't die BECAUSE of the Vaccine, they died from Anaphylactic Shock.

^^^^

That's how retarded you are being.

[husaberg]

But they don't die because of the helmet.

Yeah so you say, but deaths due to motorbike accidents were dropping well before the introduction of compulsory helmet wearing.
So how do we really know helmets save lives.
How many of the wearers had autism, if we got Wakefeild to single out the wearers that already has autism out of those he could prove wearing helmets caused the autism as well as not preventing the accident.
if anything the numbers would prove you are more likely to have an accident if wearing one because more people did.

[Katman]

The Kids didn't die BECAUSE of the Vaccine, they died from Anaphylactic Shock.

Due to receiving the vaccine.

[TheDemonLord]

Due to receiving the vaccine.

Due to wearing a Helmet.

[Katman]

Yeah so you say, but deaths due to motorbike accidents were dropping well before the introduction of compulsory helmet wearing.
So how do we really know helmets save lives.
How many of the wearers had autism, if we got Wakefeild to single out the wearers that already has autism out of those he could prove wearing helmets caused the autism as well as not preventing the accident.
if anything the numbers would prove you are more likely to have an accident if wearing one because more people did.

If you think you can make a valid argument out of it, feel free to approach the authorities about it.

[TheDemonLord]

If you think you can make a valid argument out of it, feel free to approach the authorities about it.

Woooooooooosh...

[Katman]

Due to wearing a Helmet.

For that to be the case you'd need to show that they wouldn't have died if they hadn't been wearing a helmet.

It's somewhat easier to show that a person wouldn't have died from anaphylactic shock due to receiving a vaccine, if they hadn't received the vaccine.

[husaberg]

If you think you can make a valid argument out of it, feel free to approach the authorities about it.

A valid arguement classic its your own stupid conspiracy drivel regurgitated to another subject. nothing in its valid or logical
Beside as you know tin foiler the big helmet lobby would never let those figures see the light of day big medicine will be getting kickbacks from the big helmet lobby plus all the doctors and politicians:msn-wink:


Woooooooooosh...
i think it flew over the cookoo nest a few times.

[TheDemonLord]

For that to be the case you'd need to show that they wouldn't have died if they hadn't been wearing a helmet.

It's somewhat easier to show that a person wouldn't have died from anaphylactic shock due to receiving a vaccine, if they hadn't received the vaccine.

Ooooo you are so close:

How about this: For that to be the case you'd need to show that they wouldn't have died from contracting full blown Measles if they hadn't received the Vaccine.

It's somewhat easier to show that a person wouldn't have died from a Motorcycle crash due to a lack of situational awareness, if they weren't wearing a helmet that restricted situational awareness.

[Katman]

How about this: For that to be the case you'd need to show that they wouldn't have died from contracting full blown Measles if they hadn't received the Vaccine.

But that's entirely speculation.

[TheDemonLord]

But that's entirely speculation.

Now, Take that Statement - apply it to your own ramblings - see how it fits....




Then, Take the real world data (like Japan) where over a thousand children died in the 3 separate outbreaks (which approximately occured when the generation that didn't get vaccinated went to Primary school, then secondary school then university).

Then, for further shits-n-giggles, look at the data from countries that don't have a vaccination program and look at their infant mortality rate.

129 dead vs over 1,000. And I'm not even bothering to adjust for Population size.

Which amount of Death is more acceptable to you - would you rather only 129 die or would you rater over 1,000 die.

[husaberg]

Now, Take that Statement - apply it to your own ramblings - see how it fits....
.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94E5sp8dQQ

[Katman]

Now, Take that Statement - apply it to your own ramblings - see how it fits....

Dude, I'm just pointing out the usual shit standard of your analogies.

You're speculating if they contract measles and speculating if they might die from it.

Dying due to anaphylactic shock after receiving a vaccine doesn't involve any speculation.

[Katman]

Then, Take the real world data (like Japan) where over a thousand children died in the 3 separate outbreaks (which approximately occured when the generation that didn't get vaccinated went to Primary school, then secondary school then university).

Which three separate outbreaks are you referring to?

[husaberg]

Dude, I'm just pointing out the usual shit standard of your analogies.

You're speculating if they contract measles and speculating if they might die from it.



Surely that would be because several tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people get the vaccine, some people react badly but the rest of them don't and then continue to not die of Measles?

I suspect, and this is a bit of guesswork, that if suddenly the vaccine was taken away, a lot more than 127 people over 15 years will die of the disease?

The death rate from measles had been in sharp decline for about 30 years before the vaccine was even discovered.
Exactly what were you speculating here then.......:niceone:



The graph I posted shows that the rate of incidence from 1912 through to 1963 would average out to a fairly constant line.
The rate of death per incidence during that same time period shows a dramatic decrease.


I'm not ignoring the incident rate.
I'm addressing the claim that the introduction of the vaccine led to a massive decrease in the number dying from the disease.


And what do you think would explain the decrease in death to case ratio prior to the introduction of the vaccine?
'Cos it sure can't be due to the vaccine.

And furthermore, statements like "thousands of dead school children from measles outbreaks" is nothing but ridiculous scare-mongering.

The reality is that dying from measles is an extremely uncommon occurrence these days.


Due to a good vaccination program?


No, due to vastly improved sanitation and nutrition.

(Although the nutrition side could probably be questioned these days).


Like I said, I'm talking about the rate of death per incident.



If the rate of incident drops dramatically due to the introduction of a vaccine but the rate of death per incident doesn't change fuck all, how can the vaccine possibly be considered a contributor to a reduction in deaths per incident?


Like I've already alluded to, I'm addressing the scare-mongering that is attempted with statements like "thousands of dead school children due to measles outbreaks".


That's what I'm saying.
It didn't decrease due to a vaccine that wasn't even available then.


And I haven't questioned that.
I do question though whether the current vaccination schedule is aimed towards the well-being of society or the balance sheet of the pharmaceutical industry.
<a href="https://imgflip.com/gif/2r2ouv"><img src="https://i.imgflip.com/2r2ouv.gif" title="made at imgflip.com"/></a>

[Katman]

Exactly what were you speculating here then.......:niceone:

I'm not speculating anything there.

That is exactly what the graph measuring measles mortality rates shows.

Do you even understand what speculation is?

[husaberg]

I'm not speculating anything there.

That is exactly what the graph measuring measles mortality rates shows.

Do you even understand what speculation is?
The above suggests you went far far beyond Mere speculation.
The mortatity rate graphs you like showing only show how many people die that have caught a disease in rates per thousand not how many people died before or afterwards as a result of the disease.
ps as proven above you are 100% full of crap. You Constantly and consistently misrepresent information and speculate on stuff you dont have the rational ability to comprehend.

[Katman]

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/425061-how-a-pro-vaccine-doctor-reopened-debate-about-link-to-autism?fbclid=IwAR2HzE9sc2vuxStLONqdHvzYSeu4TSn54B 6KVFPjCHy3Ag9TfQLLmKJukD8

[WALRUS]

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/

Yeah, I'm yet to buy the whole anti-vax movement. Seriously, even if vaccines DO cause autism (in which case, so what!?) surely it's best to have a few autistic kids, than a few more dead ones.. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather my kid have autism than Polio

[Katman]

Yeah, I'm yet to buy the whole anti-vax movement. Seriously, even if vaccines DO cause autism (in which case, so what!?) surely it's best to have a few autistic kids, than a few more dead ones.. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather my kid have autism than Polio

As is entirely your right.

[husaberg]

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/425061-how-a-pro-vaccine-doctor-reopened-debate-about-link-to-autism?fbclid=IwAR2HzE9sc2vuxStLONqdHvzYSeu4TSn54B 6KVFPjCHy3Ag9TfQLLmKJukD8


While Dr. Zimmerman truly believes that future research might find a way to identify a very small subset of kids with mitochondrial disorders that worsen after they get their vaccines (or infections or other types of inflammation), this doesn’t apply to the great majority of autistic kids or even the great majority of kids with regressive autism.


The MMR vaccine has been temporally associated, if rarely, with regressions — with regression in AMD and other mitochondrial disease when given in the second year. Doubtless some of these regressions are coincidental, since the usual age for giving the MMR falls within the typical window of vulnerability for AMD regression.”


“I do think that — that there was much information — misinformation brought about by Dr. Wakefield and it’s — this has set the field back. I think that — that we — we have worked very hard to try to reassure the public and I agree with doing that because I am very supportive of vaccinations, immunizations in general.”

Andrew Zimmerman

Before you go on the forth or fifth change of subject today
Perhaps you should read what he said
http://bolenreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Andrew-Zimmerman-Deposition.pdf

Also note what he said about your hero Wakefeild he called both his work misinformation.

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, I'm just pointing out the usual shit standard of your analogies.

You're speculating if they contract measles and speculating if they might die from it.

Dying due to anaphylactic shock after receiving a vaccine doesn't involve any speculation.

I think the problem is you've realised how shit the standard of the Drivel you've posted is, because I used the same, deliberately flawed logic for the analogy as the fuckwit in your video is using.

[TheDemonLord]

Which three separate outbreaks are you referring to?

The ones I've quoted numerous times in this thread - from memory it's one in 1995, one in 1999 and one in 2003

The MMR vaccine I think was stopped in Japan in 1991 - I would bother to dig it back up, but realistically - if the accurate and valid data didn't convince you then, my half-remembered data isn't going to convince you now.

[Katman]

The ones I've quoted numerous times in this thread - from memory it's one in 1995, one in 1999 and one in 2003.

Well google isn't helping me much in confirming your figure of over 1000 dead.

I'm curious to know how you arrived at that figure.

[Katman]

....... because I used the same, deliberately flawed logic for the analogy as the fuckwit in your video is using.

:killingme

No, you've finally realised just how shit your analogy was.

[husaberg]

Well google isn't helping me much in confirming your figure of over 1000 dead.

I'm curious to know how you arrived at that figure.

The WHO estimates Japans Measles deaths at 88 year
I have seen numbers up to 2000 for the period so TDL's 1000 seems actually an underestimation
But Japan doesnt like to report Deaths year by year
its quite telling considering they effect of delaying immunization has in Japan
1994 -1998. there have been 85 deaths
2000 88 deaths (mainly in children)

[Katman]

1994 -1998. there have been 85 deaths
2000 88 deaths (mainly in children)

That's still a long, long way off 'over 1000'.

[Graystone]

It's somewhat easier to show that a person wouldn't have died from anaphylactic shock due to receiving a vaccine, if they hadn't received the vaccine.

Is it? Presumably that includes showing conclusive evidence they did die from anaphylactic shock due to receiving the vaccine... Have you got any???

[Katman]

Is it? Presumably that includes showing conclusive evidence they did die from anaphylactic shock due to receiving the vaccine... Have you got any???

The vaccine injury reporting system has.

[Graystone]

The vaccine injury reporting system has.

The self reporting one? Or one with actual expert diagnosis?

[Katman]

The self reporting one? Or one with actual expert diagnosis?

Dunno.

Go find out and report back.

[Graystone]

Dunno.

Go find out and report back.

:killingme guess it is the shit one then, you fucking muppet :facepalm:

[husaberg]

That's still a long, long way off 'over 1000'.

as i said i have seen over 2000 reported (actually one says 2002 but its unverified.)
also its only 5 years data ands its already 173 deaths and Japan still vaccinated at a rate of over 80% in that period plus had a history of near full vaccination prior to this.
its also a lot more than you claim you posted about how many vaccine killed (most likely worldwide he never mentioned where) over 15 years. Or didn't you figure that one out.

But you attiude towards death from the disease is a little hypocritical given just hours ago you said this.

Ok, so dying from a vaccination is 'acceptable' to you.
What about all those who have suffered traumatic developmental issues immediately after vaccination?
I suppose that's fine by you too - just as long as it's someone else's child.

[Katman]

:killingme guess it is the shit one then, you fucking muppet :facepalm:

Well it turns out that by the end of 2011 the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program had paid out compensation for 390 deaths.

Those 127 measles vaccine deaths might make up some of that number.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-injury-compensation-programs

[TheDemonLord]

:killingme

No, you've finally realised just how shit your analogy was.

Or, you've finally realised just how shit your Video was.

[Katman]

Or, you've finally realised just how shit your Video was.

Not at all.

He simply pointed out that the numbers suggest there is greater risk of dying from the vaccine than dying from the disease.

[Graystone]

Well it turns out that by the end of 2011 the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program had paid out compensation for 390 deaths.

Those 127 measles vaccine deaths might make up some of that number.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-injury-compensation-programs

Please let us know if you ever get something more than 'might', until then:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh:

[TheDemonLord]

Well google isn't helping me much in confirming your figure of over 1000 dead.

I'm curious to know how you arrived at that figure.

There isn't a direct source that tallies it up, there's a bit of Maths involved to get the number - I've posted references previously in this thread - The point being that the number of Dead from one generation of people that didn't get vaccinated is far higher than the total Dead of those who died of an Allergic reaction.




If the thrust of your (and Andrew Wakefield)'s argument was to look at ways to reduce the instance of Anaphylaxis, I might have some sympathy - but it isn't and never has been. On top of that - the current vaccination procedure (which I've gone through with my own flesh and blood) is to wait at least 30 minutes after administering the Vaccine incase there is a reaction (and the vaccination is done in a location were immediate first-aid can be administered)

[TheDemonLord]

Not at all.

He simply pointed out that the numbers suggest there is greater risk of dying from the vaccine than dying from the disease.

Whilst ommitting that the reason for so few people dying from the Disease is because the vast majority of the Population are Vaccinated.

Just like it's lunacy to suggest that because more people die who are wearing Helmets, they are more dangerous than not wearing Helmets. Exact same bullshit, half-baked, fallacious waffle.

[Katman]

There isn't a direct source that tallies it up, there's a bit of Maths involved to get the number

So the "over 1000 deaths" is just more wild speculation on your part.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Katman]

Whilst ommitting that the reason for so few people dying from the Disease is because the vast majority of the Population are Vaccinated.

Should I remind you about the measles mortality rate graph again?

[TheDemonLord]

So the "over 1000 deaths" is just more wild speculation on your part.

Thanks for clearing that up.

It's closer to 2,000 from memory - and considering the WHO data, (~100 per year since the 1990s) it's not 'Wild Speculation' - the key point, is it's more than 130.

[TheDemonLord]

Should I remind you about the measles mortality rate graph again?

Sure - does it change that in Japan there are a whole bunch of Dead Children over a 20+ year period when there were ZERO deaths in the UK?

[Katman]

It's closer to 2,000 from memory - and considering the WHO data, (~100 per year since the 1990s) it's not 'Wild Speculation' - the key point, is it's more than 130.

Don't rely on your memory. You've proven time and again that your memory is shit.

Provide us with some facts to back up your claim.

[Katman]

Sure - does it change that in Japan there are a whole bunch of Dead Children over a 20+ year period when there were ZERO deaths in the UK?

Right, so now it's 'a whole bunch' instead of 'over 1000'.

Could you possibly be any more vague?

[matt.of.the.ingh]

Dude, your total contribution to this thread has been 6 posts - none of which contain anything resembling 'facts'.Pot.... Kettle.

You have no facts. Vaccinations work.
That's why 50% of the world population isn't dead from small pox.

Muppet.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[matt.of.the.ingh]

But they don't die because of the helmet.Ahhhh! My god Katman....
They don't die because of the helmet. They die despite the helmet. More people survive because they wear a helmet, but unfortunately there are occasionally circumstances that mean a helmet doesn't save them.

Kids don't die because they are vaccinated. Thousands, if not millions, of lives each year are saved because of vaccinations. Unfortunately sometimes kids have allergies. It's massively rare, but it happens. It doesn't mean that vaccines are unsafe, it just means that sometimes shitty stuff happens.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

Right, so now it's 'a whole bunch' instead of 'over 1000'.

Could you possibly be any more vague?

The Final figure is disputed - the highest estimate I've seen is since the withdrawal of the MMR vaccine in Japan to be about 5,000 children Dead. This figure has to be taken with a grain of salt because (from memory) it includes deaths arising from complications (such as contracting full blown Meningitus, recovering, then dying from the Flu due to a compromised immune system)

For comparison, in the same time period - there were 0 children dead in the UK.

As Husa pointed out, the actual number isn't clearly known (it's almost like the Japanese government is guilty about their complicity in killing children...) the WHO estimates of 88/yr and considering the MMR jab was banned in 1993 - this gives you 26 year time period - and a total figure of over 2000 (2,288). However, we know that for the first few years from the withdrawal of the MMR jab, there was still enough Herd Immunity from the vaccinated populace to ward off most of the ill effects and we know that the first major outbreak co-incided about 5-6 years after the withdrawal (when those un-vaccinated walking incubators - aka Children) went to School - if you assume a 23 year period - the figure is just over 2,000, but as I said earlier - the most accurate number is an estimate of more than 1,000 but probably a bit less then 2,000.

However - lets just for the sake of argument only stick to the most recent and verified numbers: which is 88+85 - which is 173.

That number is greater than the total deaths cited in your video (and again, not adjusting for timeframe or population size).

So, on that basis Alone - if your goal is to reduce human suffering and Death - do you take the option that kills 129 people or the option that kills 173?

[Katman]

The Final figure is disputed - the highest estimate I've seen is since the withdrawal of the MMR vaccine in Japan to be about 5,000 children Dead. This figure has to be taken with a grain of salt because (from memory) it includes deaths arising from complications (such as contracting full blown Meningitus, recovering, then dying from the Flu due to a compromised immune system)

For comparison, in the same time period - there were 0 children dead in the UK.

As Husa pointed out, the actual number isn't clearly known (it's almost like the Japanese government is guilty about their complicity in killing children...) the WHO estimates of 88/yr and considering the MMR jab was banned in 1993 - this gives you 26 year time period - and a total figure of over 2000 (2,288). However, we know that for the first few years from the withdrawal of the MMR jab, there was still enough Herd Immunity from the vaccinated populace to ward off most of the ill effects and we know that the first major outbreak co-incided about 5-6 years after the withdrawal (when those un-vaccinated walking incubators - aka Children) went to School - if you assume a 23 year period - the figure is just over 2,000, but as I said earlier - the most accurate number is an estimate of more than 1,000 but probably a bit less then 2,000.

However - lets just for the sake of argument only stick to the most recent and verified numbers: which is 88+85 - which is 173.

That number is greater than the total deaths cited in your video (and again, not adjusting for timeframe or population size).

So, on that basis Alone - if your goal is to reduce human suffering and Death - do you take the option that kills 129 people or the option that kills 173?

Dude, that is still completely wild speculation.

If I tried coming at that you'd be trying to tear me to pieces.

[Katman]

Ahhhh! My god Katman....
They don't die because of the helmet. They die despite the helmet.

No shit Sherlock.

The point I was making is that those 127 people who died of an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine died because they received the vaccine.

Clear now?

[matt.of.the.ingh]

No shit Sherlock.

The point I was making is that those 127 people who died of an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine died because they received the vaccine.

Clear now?I'm not sure. Have you realise that thousands more are saved because of vaccines?
Because that's part of the point.

If you have we can move on to stuff like herd immunity and how everyone bring vaccinated literally saves the lives of disabled babies.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

I'm not sure. Have you realise that thousands more are saved because of vaccines?


I think you mean 'potentially' saved.

Not getting the vaccine does not guarantee you'll contract the disease and contracting the disease does not guarantee you'll die from it.

[TheDemonLord]

Not getting the vaccine does not guarantee you'll contract the disease and contracting the disease does not guarantee you'll die from it.

I await your experiment on this...

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, that is still completely wild speculation.

If I tried coming at that you'd be trying to tear me to pieces.

Except for the part where I've already posted references in this thread, which you summarily ignored, just as you are doing now.

It's a bit of a difference.

[Katman]

Except for the part where I've already posted references in this thread, which you summarily ignored, just as you are doing now.

It's a bit of a difference.

If you posted them once before, you could post them again.

But I don't think you can.

[Katman]

I await your experiment on this...

I haven't had a measles vaccination for as long as I can remember.

And guess what, I had measles as a child and didn't die from it - and I'm still alive today.

[TheDemonLord]

I haven't had a measles vaccination for as long as I can remember.

And guess what, I had measles as a child and didn't die from it - and I'm still alive today.

"I crashed a bike without a Helmet once, I'm still alive, therefore no one needs to wear a Helmet to protect them from a Motorcycle Crash"

[Katman]

"I crashed a bike without a Helmet once, I'm still alive, therefore no one needs to wear a Helmet to protect them from a Motorcycle Crash"

If you say so.

[TheDemonLord]

If you posted them once before, you could post them again.

But I don't think you can.

I can, I can't be arsed.

And there are 2 key reasons why I can't be arsed:

1: You didn't accept it then, so why bother posting something you are only going to dismiss?
2: Husa's posted WHO data that backs up what I've been saying - although doesn't give an explicit number, using the power of a little Maths - it shows enough proof to show that I'm not making up the overarching point that more children have died in Japan as a result of contracting Measles than have died in the US as a result of severe allergic reaction and this is without adjusting for the differences in population sizes.

[TheDemonLord]

If you say so.

Well, lets repeat the experiment - if you'd like to go to the nearest NBC testing facility, contract Small Pox - and we'll then see if Vaccines work or not...

[Katman]

Well, lets repeat the experiment - if you'd like to go to the nearest NBC testing facility, contract Small Pox - and we'll then see if Vaccines work or not...

Really?

Why would anyone do that?

Wouldn't it be more sensible to not go there?

[Katman]

I can, I can't be arsed.

And there are 2 key reasons why I can't be arsed:

1: You didn't accept it then, so why bother posting something you are only going to dismiss?
2: Husa's posted WHO data that backs up what I've been saying - although doesn't give an explicit number, using the power of a little Maths - it shows enough proof to show that I'm not making up the overarching point that more children have died in Japan as a result of contracting Measles than have died in the US as a result of severe allergic reaction and this is without adjusting for the differences in population sizes.

Refer post #4341.

[husaberg]

I haven't had a measles vaccination for as long as I can remember.

And guess what, I had measles as a child and didn't die from it - and I'm still alive today.

Congratulation give that speech to all the parents in the world whose children did die from measles then troll them with that.
In 2016, an estimated 90 000 people died from measles – an 84% drop from more than 550 000 deaths in 2000 – according to a new report published today by leading health organizations. This marks the first time global measles deaths have fallen below 100 000 per year.

Japan is the classic example of what happens when vaccination rates fall.
Why is it Japan has had to mass vaccine hundreds of thousands of children over the last jew years it Measles is not significant.
by the way two measles jabs conveys lifetime immunity, One which is what most of Japans lost generation got. mostly too late to save their lives as they were delayed far later than the rest of the western world.

[Katman]

Congratulation give that speech to all the parents in the world whose children did die from measles then troll them with that.
In 2016, an estimated 90 000 people died from measles – an 84% drop from more than 550 000 deaths in 2000 – according to a new report published today by leading health organizations. This marks the first time global measles deaths have fallen below 100 000 per year.

And how many of those deaths were in countries with poor nutrition and hygiene standards?

[TheDemonLord]

Really?

Why would anyone do that?

Wouldn't it be more sensible to not go there?

So you aren't willing to put your Life where your Mouth is.

Glad to know you're an utter Hypocrite.

[TheDemonLord]

And how many of those deaths were in countries with poor nutrition and hygiene standards?

Japan.

And it's still not getting through your tin-foil addled brain.

[Katman]

So you aren't willing to put your Life where your Mouth is.

Glad to know you're an utter Hypocrite.

No, I'm saying that's exactly why not getting a vaccine does not guarantee that you'll contract the disease.

It would certainly be sensible for anyone who works at an NBC testing facility to be vaccinated for the diseases they're testing - but I don't work there.

[Katman]

Japan.

And it's still not getting through your tin-foil addled brain.

And yet you still can't tell me how many.

:wait:

[TheDemonLord]

No, I'm saying that's exactly why not getting a vaccine does not guarantee that you'll contract the disease.

It would certainly be sensible for anyone who works at an NBC testing facility to be vaccinated for the diseases they're testing - but I don't work there.

Have you met Children?

I know you don't have any, but surely you are familiar with the concept of Children, yes? They are a literal breeding ground for all sorts of ailments - a weaker immune system combined with less-than-sanitary habits makes for them contracting diseases that Adults generally wouldn't.

Again - put your money where your mouth is.

[TheDemonLord]

And yet you still can't tell me how many.

:wait:

5000 > X > 1000

There you go.

[Katman]

- a weaker immune system

That appears to have gotten weaker over time - hence the increase in all sorts of allergies and auto-immune diseases.

Perhaps someone should look into what's causing that.

[Katman]

5000 > X > 1000

There you go.

That's a pretty wild guess.

[TheDemonLord]

That appears to have gotten weaker over time - hence the increase in all sorts of allergies and auto-immune diseases.

Perhaps someone should look into what's causing that.

They have.

Double Irony points for your statement "Weaker over time" - then mentioning Allergies and Auto-Immune disease - which are both caused by an over-active immune system (as opposed to a Weak Immune system)

Guess that's a bit of a torpedo in the Good ship "Katman's Medical Knowledge"

[TheDemonLord]

That's a pretty wild guess.

Not at all.

5,000 represents the upper estimate which includes all Deaths and related Deaths, 1,000 represents the lower estimate, using the most conservative figures that are available.

[Katman]

They have.

Double Irony points for your statement "Weaker over time" - then mentioning Allergies and Auto-Immune disease - which are both caused by an over-active immune system (as opposed to a Weak Immune system)

Guess that's a bit of a torpedo in the Good ship "Katman's Medical Knowledge"

Ok, an over active immune system.

Have you ever wondered what's causing that?

[Katman]

.....using the most conservative figures that are available.

Available where?

[TheDemonLord]

Ok, an over active immune system.

Have you ever wondered what's causing that?

Lack of exposure to low level diseases primarily. Owing to advances in Medical technology, use of Anti-bacterial wipes/sprays, smaller family sizes, limited outside free play (as in not under direct parental supervision), limited intermingling between children from different groups.

(You'll note that Vaccines aren't on that list - in fact, since Vaccines work by interacting with the Immune system - they probably help)

[TheDemonLord]

Available where?

The WHO data for a start - 88 per year.

[Katman]

Lack of exposure to low level diseases primarily. Owing to advances in Medical technology, use of Anti-bacterial wipes/sprays, smaller family sizes, limited outside free play (as in not under direct parental supervision), limited intermingling between children from different groups.

(You'll note that Vaccines aren't on that list - in fact, since Vaccines work by interacting with the Immune system - they probably help)

Vaccines work by stimulating the immune system.

What if the current vaccine schedule is over-stimulating an underdeveloped immune system?

[Katman]

The WHO data for a start - 88 per year.

For how many years?

All you have to do is show me that data.

[TheDemonLord]

For how many years?

All you have to do is show me that data.

It was banned in 1993

[Katman]

It was banned in 1993

Is that your idea of data?

[TheDemonLord]

Vaccines work by stimulating the immune system.

What if the current vaccine schedule is over-stimulating an underdeveloped immune system?

Given what we (and when I say we - I mean people who've got some modicum of clue about Biology, which rules you out) know about Immune development, that's the complete opposite to reality.

The Immune system gets developed by encountering Viruses and Bacterium at small levels and fighting them off (Y'know - the same way that Vaccines work) - when kids live in a very clean environment, where everything is wiped down with Anti-bac wipes, they use anti-bac soap, they don't have 5+ Siblings to interact with, they don't play out in the street with the other large groups of family kids, they are supervised by Parents who prevent them from eating dirt, putting their fingers into (insert preferred bacterial breeding ground here) and then putting those same fingers in their mouths - their Immune system doesn't appear to develop properly.

So No.

[TheDemonLord]

Is that your idea of data?

Well, I'm assuming you can count? If that assumption is false, then I'll be happy to provide you with something more appropriate for your level - like my Daughters Crayon set.

[Katman]

Well, I'm assuming you can count? If that assumption is false, then I'll be happy to provide you with something more appropriate for your level - like my Daughters Crayon set.

Just show me where the WHO states that an average of 88 per year have died since 1993 then.

[Katman]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673604167159/fulltext

This article states that 88 died in 2000.

Can you show me anywhere else that claims that an average of 88 have died each year in Japan since 1993?

Wouldn't you think that if 88 people were dying from measles each year in Japan since 1993, that The Lancet would mention it?

[husaberg]

And how many of those deaths were in countries with poor nutrition and hygiene standards?

So hundreds if not thousands die in Japan from measles
While in the UK over the same time Zero die and you think its nutrition and Hygiene?
Japan only has twice the population of the UK not 1000 times.?
So please explain

If its hygiene and nutrition why is it as soon as third world countries have the kids mass vaccinated the level of deaths drops overnight, Please explain?
Please explain how this this dramatic improvement in what you say is hygiene and nutrition happens at the exact same time they are vaccinated. please explain?

Also explain why people in EU countries are also dying of Measles , France, Germany, Romania. Ireland, Italy, Bulgaria, Ukraine please explain?

37 in the first six months of 2018 alone. So how is it a Third World disease?
More than 41 000 children and adults across Europe have been infected with measles in the first six months of 2018 and at least 37 people have died, show figures from the World Health Organization.1

The number of measles cases seen this year far exceeds the annual totals for every year this decade, which was highest in 2017 when there were 23 927 cases and lowest in 2016 when there were 5273.
The US
from 1989 to 1991 there were at least 123 measles deaths across the United States. Most of the deaths were otherwise healthy, without underlying medical problems.
They were all unvaccinated so explain how it was poor hygine and nutrician that caused these deaths.



One example is measles in the United States. When the first measles vaccine was introduced in 1963, rates of infection had been holding steady at around 400,000 cases a year. And while hygienic habits and sanitation didn’t change much over the following decade, the rate of measles infections dropped precipitously following the introduction of the vaccine, with only around 25,000 cases by 1970. Another example is Hib disease. According to CDC data, the incidence rate for this malady plummeted from 20,000 in 1990 to around 1,500 in 1993, following the introduction of the vaccine.

Olivia Dahl died with measles when she was 7-years-old (1962)
an unvaccinated 3-year-old died in Maricopa County (1970)
a 13-year-old girl who had previously been vaccinated with one of the first inactivated measles vaccines which were found to be ineffective and were replaced with the newer live vaccines died in Michigan (1978)
a 9-month-old died in Chicago (1990)
an unvaccinated 13-year-old died in Kansas (1990)
Tammy Bowman, an 11-year-old unvaccinated girl died in Michigan (1990)
an unvaccinated 13-year-old became the first person in the UK to die with measles in 14 years (2006)
a 14-year-old died of Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis (SSPE), a late complication of a natural measles infection (2015)
an immunocompromised woman died after she was exposed in an outbreak in Clallam County, Washington (2015)
a 6-year-old boy with leukemia died in Italy caught measles from his intentionally unvaccinated sibling (2017)
an 11-month-old unvaccinated infant died in Greece (2017)
an intentionally unvaccinated 9-year-old girl with chromosomopathy, which is not a contraindication to getting vaccinated, died in Italy (2017)
a 10-month-old unvaccinated boy who likely caught measles when he had been hospitalized for an RSV infection, died in Italy (2018)
a 16-year-old who had received a heart transplant when she was 2-years-old died in France (2018)
an unvaccinated toddler in Jerusalem (2018)

340371

You knowingly spreading false information makes you complicit in the deaths of thousands of innocent children i wouldn't want that on my conscience
but then again not being a psychopathic parasitic narcissistic troll i actually have a conscience.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140673604167159/fulltext

This article states that 88 died in 2000.

Can you show me anywhere else that claims that an average of 88 have died each year in Japan since 1993?

Wouldn't you think that if 88 people were dying from measles each year in Japan since 1993, that The Lancet would mention it?

It's not as straight forward as that - I believe the Japanese government were sued several times by Parents of Children who died due to Measles over their decision to withdraw the MMR Vaccine. However, we do have the detail that the fatality rate in Japan for Measles was 1 in 10,000 - during the major outbreaks (1999-2003) there were around 100,000 -200,000 cases a year.

The point still (however much you wish to argue specifics) is that the number is far greater than the number of deaths for a 15 year period in the US, which has a far higher population.

In fact - Since you agree in 88 in one year - 129 in 15 years gives a death rate of 8.6 (so already for the 1 year you agree with the data - the death rate of Actual Measles vs the Vaccine is 10:1) - but seeing as you want to be pedantic - the US has a population size of 325 Million vs Japan's 126 Million (2.5 times higher) - so adjusting the 8.6 for population size gives us 3.44 deaths in a single year for a country using the Vaccine with a population size of Japan vs 88 deaths (that you agree is accurate) for Japan NOT using the Vaccine.

So I put it to you: If your stated goal is compassion and not wanting people to die - which number is more acceptable?

88 Dead
or
3.44 Dead.

[Katman]

from 1989 to 1991 there were at least 123 measles deaths across the United States.

How many children drowned in their parents swimming pool over the same time period?

[TheDemonLord]

How many children drowned in their parents swimming pool over the same time period?

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/995/832/9b7.jpg

[Katman]

So I put it to you: If your stated goal is compassion and not wanting people to die - which number is more acceptable?

Dude, people die.

I don't imagine anything I can do will ever be likely to change that.

And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

[Katman]

It's not as straight forward as that

It never is with you.

[husaberg]

How many children drowned in their parents swimming pool over the same time period?

Vaccination wouldn't have saved them, but as you tried to change the subject i will take it as an admission you cant refute the facts you are wrong in your assertions
You must find it amazinge that on a medical matter the entire medical community (aside from ahandfull of kooks) is right in saying that vaccinations save lives when you as a bike mechanic from taupo whose only medical training was a first aid course you took as a boy scout in 1972 thinks he knows better.;)

https://vaxopedia.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/dear-anti-vaxxers.jpghttps://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2011/05/27/3a9e271a-a645-11e2-a3f0-029118418759/resize/620x465/7bd9181867050b96c5a537857357336e/measlesboy2.pnghttp://cdn-webimages.wimages.net/0535ddd6b025a84dcca3e40ef9cc8bc36c2864-v5-wm.jpg

Measles: a dangerous illness, by Roald Dahl (written in 1986)
Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old.

As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn’t do anything.

“Are you feeling all right?” I asked her.

“I feel all sleepy, ” she said.

In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.

The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her.

That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.

On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.

It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness.

Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk.

In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.

Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. [NOTE: Since this was written in 1986, the success of the MMR vaccination has reduced this figure to several thousand each year, but unvaccinated children are still at risk, and there are still occasional deaths from measles].

Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another.

At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections.

About 20 will die. [NOTE: The number of deaths from measles has fallen to almost zero in the UK since this was written. The number of people affected by complications of measles has also fallen.]

n 1962 Roald Dahl's daughter Olivia died of measles encephalitis. Measles causes encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) in about one in every thousand children who get it. Encephalitis is still an extremely serious condition which is difficult to treat and almost always requires admission to an intensive care unit.

Soon after Olivia died, Roald Dahl wrote the following account in a school exercise book, which he kept hidden away at the back of a drawer in his writing shed. It describes taking his daughter into hospital after she had collapsed at home.

Awful drive. Lorries kept holding us up on narrow roads. Got to hospital. Ambulance went to wrong entrance. Backed out. Arrived. Young doctor in charge. Mervyn and he gave her 3mg sodium amatol. I sat in hall. Smoked. Felt frozen. A small single bar electric fire on wall. An old man in next room. Woman doctor went to phone. She was trying urgently to locate another doctor. He arrived. I went in. Olivia lying quietly. Still unconscious. She has an even chance, doctor said. They had tapped her spine. Not meningitis. It’s encephalitis. Mervyn left in my car. I stayed. Pat arrived and went in to see Olivia. Kissed her. Spoke to her. Still unconscious. I went in. I said, “Olivia… Olivia.” She raised her head slightly off pillow. Sister said don’t. I went out. We drank whiskey. I told doctor to consult experts. Call anyone. He called a man in Oxford. I listened. Instructions were given. Not much could be done. I first said I would stay on. Then I said I’d go back with Pat. Went. Arrived home. Called Philip Evans. He called hospital. Called me back. “Shall I come?” “Yes please.” I said I’d tell hospital he was coming. I called. Doc thought I was Evans. He said I’m afraid she’s worse. I got in the car. Got to hospital. Walked in. Two doctors advanced on me from waiting room. How is she? I’m afraid it’s too late. I went into her room. Sheet was over her. Doctor said to nurse go out. Leave him alone. I kissed her. She was warm. I went out. “She is warm.” I said to doctors in hall, “Why is she so warm?” “Of course,” he said. I left.

In the mid-1980s, over twenty years later, Roald Dahl wrote the following passage, aimed at parents who were refusing to give their children the measles vaccine. (The number of deaths from measles has fallen to almost zero in the UK since this was written. See the 'More information' section of our Measles page for up-to-date information about measles deaths in the UK.)

[Katman]

Given what we (and when I say we - I mean people who've got some modicum of clue about Biology, which rules you out) know about Immune development, that's the complete opposite to reality.

The Immune system gets developed by encountering Viruses and Bacterium at small levels and fighting them off (Y'know - the same way that Vaccines work) - when kids live in a very clean environment, where everything is wiped down with Anti-bac wipes, they use anti-bac soap, they don't have 5+ Siblings to interact with, they don't play out in the street with the other large groups of family kids, they are supervised by Parents who prevent them from eating dirt, putting their fingers into (insert preferred bacterial breeding ground here) and then putting those same fingers in their mouths - their Immune system doesn't appear to develop properly.

So No.

Perhaps you should offer your wealth of knowledge on the subject to these people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5607155/

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, people die.

And yet when I make that statement, I'm a bloodthirsty Monster...


And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

Well, it's either:

1: Rabid Jealousy at how dare Big Pharma make lots of Money
2: Misguided compassion at the fact some people do have allergic reactions and die
3: You're being a Cunt

Given how your arguments thus far have been 'but sooooooo many people die' - You'll forgive someone being charitable and assuming it's option 2.

However - the real solution to this problem is - you can call me a Nazi (GODWIN!) when you have kids of your own - when you've got Skin in the game, then you can tell people to go fuck themselves.

Until then however - I do have Kids, Husa has Kids - we hold others to the same standard we hold ourselves.

If you want to have the conversation around improving administering practices to reduce or eliminate the risk of death from an allergic reaction (which they already do) - Fine.
If you want to have the conversation around government overreach and where the authority of the Parent ends and the Wellbeing of the Child starts - Also, Fine.

But, to critique the risks of a Vaccine whilst simultaneously benefitting from the protection of a 95% vaccination rate is either Stupid or Malicious. So which are you?

[TheDemonLord]

Perhaps you should offer your wealth of knowledge on the subject to these people.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5607155/

Some very interesting articles published by those researchers - several that would come under the banner of 'Alternative Medicine' - or as I like to refer to it 'Bullshit'.

But from the actual paper:


In this review, we discuss the possible underlying mechanisms of autoimmune reactions following vaccinations and review cases of autoimmune diseases that have been correlated with vaccination.

So no Causation then? GG, WP, Try again, come back when you've got a causal analysis.

[husaberg]

And yet when I make that statement, I'm a bloodthirsty Monster...



Well, it's either:

1: Rabid Jealousy at how dare Big Pharma make lots of Money
2: Misguided compassion at the fact some people do have allergic reactions and die
3: You're being a Cunt

Given how your arguments thus far have been 'but sooooooo many people die' - You'll forgive someone being charitable and assuming it's option 2.

However - the real solution to this problem is - you can call me a Nazi (GODWIN!) when you have kids of your own - when you've got Skin in the game, then you can tell people to go fuck themselves.

Until then however - I do have Kids, Husa has Kids - we hold others to the same standard we hold ourselves.

If you want to have the conversation around improving administering practices to reduce or eliminate the risk of death from an allergic reaction (which they already do) - Fine.
If you want to have the conversation around government overreach and where the authority of the Parent ends and the Wellbeing of the Child starts - Also, Fine.

But, to critique the risks of a Vaccine whilst simultaneously benefitting from the protection of a 95% vaccination rate is either Stupid or Malicious. So which are you?
Its pretty clear hes just One and three and then 3 and three and three plus some more three.
Katmans motives much like his cognitive capacity is pretty simple.
He cant claim it compassion given they he would rather see thousands of thousands of kids needlessly suffer what is an easily preventable disease.

do you vaccinate your pets for disease.
Or do you not trust these vaccinations and would rather take your chances on yourself?


Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.

(other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

Also the statement about how he wont be forced to vaccinate is kids that don't exist, is rather funny given he admitted he vaccinated his dog on account he otherwise would not have been able to put it in a boarding kennel .
This sums up where he really is a big talking lion about what he says he will do on the internet yet when push comes to shove a meek timid little ginger tabby.
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/51/f2/46/51f246ea39377e261c03b75530364dca--self-image-dell-anima.jpg

Out of interest how many different easily proven wrong theories do you think has he put up in the last week on Vaccination?

[Katman]

And yet when I make that statement, I'm a bloodthirsty Monster...

Because when you make the statement it's usually in connection with blowing people up with bombs.

[Katman]

However - the real solution to this problem is - you can call me a Nazi (GODWIN!) when you have kids of your own - when you've got Skin in the game, then you can tell people to go fuck themselves.

When people try to remove basic human rights from others I can tell them to go fuck themselves whenever I like.

And you can be sure I will.

[WALRUS]

How about this as a compromise?

Vaccinations are entirely optional, people who don't get vaccinated against potentially lethal diseases and take the risk of contracting, mutating, and then passing on said diseases can then go and live somewhere else. That way they won't have to worry about people in favour of vaccinations ranting at them, people in favour of vaccinations don't have to worry (founded or otherwise) about contracting some hideous Polio/Rubella/Measles hybrid death virus of doom, and everyone is happy?

I'll be more than happy to offer Victoria.. It's only full of Victorians anyway so fuck 'em. Or maybe Queensland? Fuck it, anti-vaxxers can just have Australia, I'll jump across the ditch and life goes on :)

Shazam, problem solved, thread over, lock now please

[Katman]

Some interesting reading.

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2004/05/cdc-neutral-thimerosal-flu-vaccine-toddlers

[husaberg]

When people try to remove basic human rights from others I can tell them to go fuck themselves whenever I like.

And you can be sure I will.

What does Article three say in the basic human rights
Article 3 Right to Life,
1. Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.

it doesn't convey the right for a parent to choose not to treat a child for a disease quite the opposite. nor does it give right to taupo motorbike salesman to decide if his non existent kids will be treated for preventable diseases.


When a patient is not competent to give informed consent
When a patient is not competent to give informed consent
20. Under the Code every consumer is presumed competent
to make an informed choice and give informed consent.
There must be reasonable grounds for believing that the
individual consumer is not competent.



29. Occasionally, when people are unable or refuse to
consent to treatment and there is not unanimity between
the views of the doctor and the patient (or the patient’s
family), you may need to give patients and their families
the time, information and supportive resources needed
to work these issues through and seek advice from peer
groups, senior medical staff or an ethics committee before
proceeding. In rare cases where unanimity cannot be
reached and further delay may seriously impair health
outcomes, you may need to obtain a legal opinion on
whether to seek authority from the High Court. Such
cases are:


d) a dispute between parents based on religion or beliefs
about the treatment to be provided to a child.



39. Under section 8 no person shall be deprived of life except
on such grounds as are established by law and are
consistent with the principles of fundamental justice.
40. Section 9 states everyone has the right not to
be subjected to torture or to cruel, degrading, or
disproportionately severe treatment or punishment

[Katman]

What does Article three say in the basic human rights
Article 3 Right to Life,
1. Every human being has the inherent right to life. This right shall be protected by law. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his life.

Well now you're making the fundamental mistake of assuming that not being vaccinated automatically means that you will be deprived of your life.

[TheDemonLord]

Because when you make the statement it's usually in connection with blowing people up with bombs.

Yes - Using force or Science to minimise Human Suffering - It's almost like I actually care about my fellow Human. Whereas you'd happily stand by and watch people get Massacred or dying from preventable diseases over the fear of causing a single death by your hand.


When people try to remove basic human rights from others I can tell them to go fuck themselves whenever I like.

And you can be sure I will.

Good Job you've opted not to be a Parent then. You'll never have to worry about this 'Human Right' being revoked from you.

[TheDemonLord]

How about this as a compromise?

Vaccinations are entirely optional, people who don't get vaccinated against potentially lethal diseases and take the risk of contracting, mutating, and then passing on said diseases can then go and live somewhere else. That way they won't have to worry about people in favour of vaccinations ranting at them, people in favour of vaccinations don't have to worry (founded or otherwise) about contracting some hideous Polio/Rubella/Measles hybrid death virus of doom, and everyone is happy?

I'll be more than happy to offer Victoria.. It's only full of Victorians anyway so fuck 'em. Or maybe Queensland? Fuck it, anti-vaxxers can just have Australia, I'll jump across the ditch and life goes on :)

Shazam, problem solved, thread over, lock now please

When can we start? We'll have to Annex Northland, but that's a risk I'm willing to take...

[Katman]

Good Job you've opted not to be a Parent then. You'll never have to worry about this 'Human Right' being revoked from you.

True, but that won't stop me lending my voice in support of others who might.

[husaberg]

True, but that won't stop me lending my voice in support of others who might.


Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.
Wow you sure stuck it to the man about Vaccination:tugger:


Well now you're making the fundamental mistake of assuming that not being vaccinated automatically means that you will be deprived of your life.

Your fundamental mistake is you thinking anyone of sound mind would consider your ravings and opinion of the medical merit and dangers to be more informed than a doctors.
your musings and ill informed objections to any form of medical care are covered here
When a patient or caregiver is not competent to give informed consent
Also you might find you non existent non vaccinated child wont be enrolled into a school or childcare and if they get measles or another notifiable disease you have little rights at all.

ealth Act 1956
46. Under section 70(1)(e) a Medical Officer of Health
can require a person to report themselves or submit
themselves for medical examination at specified times
and places for the purpose of preventing the outbreak
or spread of any infectious disease.
47. Under section 70(1)(h) a Medical Officer of Health can
forbid a person to leave the health district or the place in
which he or she is isolated or quarantined until the person
has been medically examined and found to be free from
infectious disease, and until the person has undergone
such preventive treatment as prescribed by the Officer.
48. Under section 74 a doctor who believes a patient is
suffering from a notifiable disease or from any sickness
of which the symptoms create a reasonable suspicion that
it is a notifiable disease must immediately notify :
the occupier of the premises; and
every person nursing or in immediate attendance on
the patient; and
the Medical Officer of Health; and in some cases;
the local authority of the district.
49. Under section 79 a Medical Officer of Health can isolate
an individual who is likely to cause the spread of any
infectious disease, whether or not the individual is
suffering from the disease. Under subsection (4) force
may be used to isolate this individual if necessary until the
person has been medically examined and found to be free
of the infectious disease.

Just as well you never had kids (for their sake)

[Katman]

it doesn't convey the right for a parent to choose not to treat a child for a disease quite the opposite.

Vaccination is not the 'treatment' of a disease.

[husaberg]

When people try to remove basic human rights from others I can tell them to go fuck themselves whenever I like.

And you can be sure I will.


Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.

You talk a tough game now but you folded to the kennel.

Vaccination is not the 'treatment' of a disease.

Ignore everything i said then say i said something i didn't, then you know better aye.:facepalm:

So how come you folded to the kennel over your dog then expect us to believe your non existent children wouldnt be vaccinated because of your beliefs.

i am picking your misses would have totally ignored you and done what she wanted to if you had been able to reproduce.
You talk a big game but a dog kennel had you turning yourself into a epic hypocrite in an nono second.


Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.

Yet



And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

[Katman]

So how come you folded to the kennel over your dog then expect us to believe your non existent children wouldnt be vaccinated because of your beliefs.

Because I probably wouldn't plan to leave my kids at the kennels.

[WALRUS]

^ Clearly doesn't have kids

(to be fair, neither do I but I've had to look after a few)

[husaberg]

Because I probably wouldn't plan to leave my kids at the kennels.

If you had kids you would know that they ask you to provide immunisation certificates prior to their enrollment.
public Schools cant decline soley based vaccinations but they only have so much space on their rolls:laugh:
Lots of daycare and preschools wont enroll a child without Vaccinations.

It still doesnt explain your Rhetoric about how no nazi would tell you what to do about vaccination and then you immediately caving to the dog kennel and Vaccinating your dog when they told you you had to
Hypocrite much.



Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.

Yet



And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

[Katman]

It still doesnt explain your Rhetoric about how no nazi would tell you what to do about vaccination and then you immediately caving to the dog kennel and Vaccinating your dog when they told you you had to
Hypocrite much.

Not at all. I could have chosen not to leave my dog at the kennels if I'd preferred.

Besides, dealing with an autistic dog would be less of a burden than an autistic child.

[husaberg]

Not at all. I could have chosen not to leave my dog at the kennels if I'd preferred.

Besides, dealing with an autistic dog would be less of a burden than an autistic child.

So you pricipals relating to vaccination are only dependent on convenience to you and you far fetched belief that have no scientific support or basis about a easily discredited fraudulent link to autism
It almost sounds like they are religious beliefs than a moral stand

[husaberg]

Not at all. I could have chosen not to leave my dog at the kennels if I'd preferred.

Besides, dealing with an autistic dog would be less of a burden than an autistic child.

So you pricipals relating to vaccination are only dependent on convenience to you and you far fetched belief that have no scientific support or basis
It almost sounds like they are religious beliefs than a moral stand



Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.

Yet



And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

Sticking it to the man (but only When convenient)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e0/00/89/e0008939178864009933a6c479a8e388.jpg

[Katman]

Sticking it to the man (but only When convenient)

The kennels demanding that the animal is vaccinated does not equal mandatory vaccination.

I can chose to not use the services of the kennels.

Mandatory vaccination means vaccination whether you like it or not.

Can you see the difference?

[husaberg]

The kennels demanding that the animal is vaccinated does not equal mandatory vaccination.

I can chose to not use the services of the kennels.

Mandatory vaccination means vaccination whether you like it or not.

Can you see the difference?

I can see the difference you state you strongly believe in one thing and that no ones going to force you to vaccinate anything but go and do the total opposite as its more convenient.



Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.

Yet



And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

Sticking it to the man (but only When convenient)

Such high held principals you have. They match the children you also don't have rather nicely.

[matt.of.the.ingh]

Vaccination is not the 'treatment' of a disease.Nope it's not.
Vaccination doesn't guarantee you'll never get the disease either.
There are no guarantees in biology.

In developed countries deaths from measles etc did drop before vaccinations. That was because of better health and nutrition. Specifically people who are well nurished and generally healthy are much more able to fight of diseases.
INFECTION rates didn't drop until the vaccines were introduced.

In third world countries people aren't well nurished, so when they get infected, they are much more likely to die. It's easier and cheaper to give vaccines than to change the farming methods and climate in a developing country. That's why you see death rates drop once vaccinations are used.

(Are you keeping up? The next bit requires empathy and understanding, but I have faith in you Katman. You wouldn't be in this conversation if you weren't interested)

In developed countries kids USUALLY don't die from diseases like measles. They are healthy and strong to begin with and have access to effective medical treatments. MOST kids would be fine.

BUT for many reasons some kids aren't that strong. It might be a specific weakness to a particular disease. It might be a more global (affecting their whole body, not the whole world, you knew that! [emoji106]) disability. It might be on account of surgery resulting in immunosuppressive medicine (a bit like magically switching off your immune system).
These kids stand a very real chance of dying from diseases the rest of us would just shrug off. And they can't be vaccinated, because they don't have an immune system to strengthen.

We protect them by getting everyone else vaccinated.
Small pox was eradicated because we vaccinated everyone we could against it. That's what happens when you get everyone vaccinated.
There is no one getting sick from that disease.
It can't reproduce.
It's gone.
For everyone.
For ever.
Shit works.

Now talking about human rights.
Everyone has an inherent right to life?
Yes they do. EVERYONE.

Not just the sanctimonious middle class in developed countries who are worried about little Sebastian being pricked.
EVERYONE.
The only way everyone gets to enjoy their own right to life, is if we do our best to protect EVERYONE.

The only way to protect the weakest members of our communities is to vaccinate, help the third world vaccinate and wipe out these diseases.

Obvious arguments you might make...
1 Yes there are sometimes bad reactions to vaccines and it is heart breaking. They are very rare and big pharma does actually conduct large scale tests and withdraw products from sale when there are problems.
Yes big pharma are cunts, but they do get sued over this stuff. Thanks in part to people like you scrutinising everything to do with vaccines. We should keep up the scrutinising...

2 moral right to choose. This would be a valid argument if your actions had no effect on others. It does. Go back to the bit about disabled kids. Also the bit about badly nurished poor kids.
Allowing the disease to reproduce is what keeps it alive.

3 strengthening/ weakening immune systems. Your immune system recognises viruses and bacteria and attacks them. A vaccine had the same outward appearance as a live virus/bacteria. But the inside is switched off. It teaches your immune system to recognise that germ, so that next time a gem with the same outward appearance attacks your body, the immune system recognises it and can react more quickly.
The effect on your immune system is exactly the same, whether it first comes into contact with a germ or the vaccine. It's just that with the vaccine you don't get any symptoms.

4 autism.
It's just an unfortunate coincidence that the symptoms of autism only appear at about the same time as the MMR vaccine is given. There is no causal link. Actually there are loads of autistic people from previous generations, when vaccines weren't so common. They are often found being very successful in engineering, architecture, law and science. Anywhere that rewards being very, very precise and involves minimal team work. The whole autism epidemic thing is a bit of a red herring I'm afraid.

Really Katman. This isn't about you being able to choose what feels right for you. I'm in favour of people's right to choose for themselves in as many aspects of their lives as possible. Big governments and big companies are blights on our society.
But this isn't the battle to fight. Winning this battle means killing babies. We just need to write out these diseases.

Ps for the record, I'm also a parent. I don't really think that matters in this debate really though, as my girls are totally middle class and would probably be fine anyway...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Ocean1]

...... is either Stupid or Malicious. So which are you?

Since when are the two mutually exclusive? I'd bet long odds on a study finding a tolerably high degree of correlation between the two.

Not sure if we can, or should extend your somewhat.... unlikely charity to an assumption there's an actual causation re stupidity -> malice though.

[matt.of.the.ingh]

Ooops forgot one obvious argument...

5 show me some evidence...

We'll I showed you this back in October and it kept you quiet for a couple of months.
Well written, accessible article with lots of links to evidence for everything she says.

Reliable evidence from reputable sources...

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/dear-parents-you-are-being-lied/

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

BUT for many reasons some kids aren't that strong. It might be a specific weakness to a particular disease. It might be a more global (affecting their whole body, not the whole world, you knew that! [emoji106]) disability. It might be on account of surgery resulting in immunosuppressive medicine (a bit like magically switching off your immune system).
These kids stand a very real chance of dying from diseases the rest of us would just shrug off. And they can't be vaccinated, because they don't have an immune system to strengthen.

Well it would certainly be interesting to compare the number of children who can't be vaccinated due to the reasons you've listed with the number who suffer a permanent disability after receiving a vaccine.


They are very rare and big pharma does actually conduct large scale tests and withdraw products from sale when there are problems.

Or they might instead choose to ship the remaining stock off to a Third World country.

[husaberg]

Well it would certainly be interesting to compare the number of children who can't be vaccinated due to the reasons you've listed with the number who suffer a permanent disability after receiving a vaccine.

Why not compare the differnce in the oners that are vaccinated vs the ones that are.
340378
For each million kids 9300 more un vaccinated kids that develop measles have seizures
And only 1999 More that get potential brain damaging encephalitis.
But what the hey its other peoples childrens lives you are talking about
Vs 4 that suffer an allergic reaction and the 1/ million that die
340379
https://pics.me.me/between-1990-and-2010-measles-deaths-declined-by-71-percent-30017094.pnghttps://slideplayer.com/slide/6046230/20/images/13/50-60%25+of+estimated+deaths+attributable+to+childhoo d+vaccine+preventable+diseases.jpg

ps no reply aye just the normal abusive rep


The kennels demanding that the animal is vaccinated does not equal mandatory vaccination.

I can chose to not use the services of the kennels.

Mandatory vaccination means vaccination whether you like it or not.

Can you see the difference?

I can see the difference you state you strongly believe in one thing and that no ones going to force you to vaccinate anything but go and do the total opposite as its more convenient.



Only the dog for kennel cough - and only because we couldn't book her into the kennels if she wasn't.

Yet



And btw, I don't recall ever making a statement regarding my 'goal' - (other than telling the fucking Nazis who want to see mandatory vaccination implemented to go fuck themselves).

Sticking it to the man (but only When convenient)

Such high held principals you have. They match the children you also don't have rather nicely.

[matt.of.the.ingh]

Well it would certainly be interesting to compare the number of children who can't be vaccinated due to the reasons you've listed with the number who suffer a permanent disability after receiving a vaccine.



Or they might instead choose to ship the remaining stock off to a Third World country.Here you are.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25831421/

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

Here you are.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25831421/

What has that article got to do with comparing the number of children who can't be vaccinated with the number who suffer disabilities after being vaccinated?

[matt.of.the.ingh]

What has that article got to do with comparing the number of children who can't be vaccinated with the number who suffer disabilities after being vaccinated?All, you can follow the link to the whole paper, which also has references, but the summary there is pretty detailed.

I believe you've been accepting a figure of 88 children a year having reactions to vaccinations right?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

I believe you've been accepting a figure of 88 children a year having reactions to vaccinations right?

Have you really been paying that little attention?

Or are you just inherently stupid?

[husaberg]

All, you can follow the link to the whole paper, which also has references, but the summary there is pretty detailed.

I believe you've been accepting a figure of 88 children a year having reactions to vaccinations right?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Have you really been paying that little attention?

Or are you just inherently stupid?

You posted this video the database he mentions gives the number in the database as having adverse reactions causing death for the last ten years as 88

I had a good look in the actual database last night it appears to be microsoft access but i can't get back in there tonight to post a link tothe actual database rather than just the yearly reports.
he used 15 years but the data base accessibility for a non doctor is only 10 years for the live database you can down load data files for back to about 2001
the thing is the data is not from doctors nor does it require a autopsy or death certificate any person myself included can put any outcome or drug reaction in you like.


Anyone can report to VAERS
Anyone can submit a report to VAERS, including patients, family members, healthcare
providers, vaccine manufacturers and the general public. CDC and FDA encourage
anyone who experiences an adverse event after receiving a vaccine to report to VAERS.

Looking at the figures someone has been adding in deaths and averse reaction in 2016 and 2017. at a rate about 100 times higher than any year previously.
in laymens terms it went from 1 or two to 40's and 50 without the corresponding increase in non fatal adverse reactions, it stinks of someone corrupting the data with false information and reports of deaths.


Another reason is that they also misuse VAERS reports when talking about vaccine deaths.
“In a review of reports of death following vaccination submitted to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) from the early 1990s, the Institute of Medicine concluded that most were coincidental, not causally associated.”
Moro et al on Deaths Reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System, United States, 1997–2013
Also he used all vaccine reported deaths vs just one disease. ie Measles this is highly misleading.

For example, in 2015:
there were at least 37 cases of perinatal hepatitis B infections
five infants and children less than age 5 years died of rotavirus disease
a 14-month-old died of Hib meningitis
an infant died of pneumococcal meningitis
a 3-year-old with congenital rubella syndrome died
at least two teens died of meningococcal meningitis
a woman in Washington died of measles – the immunosuppressed women was exposed to an outbreak in Clallam County that mostly included intentionally unvaccinated kids
85 kids died of the flu

“Millions of vaccinations are given to children and adults in the United States each year. Serious adverse reactions are rare. However, because of the high volume of use, coincidental adverse events including deaths, that are temporally associated with vaccination, do occur. When death occurs shortly following vaccination, loved ones and others might naturally question whether it was related to vaccination. A large body of evidence supports the safety of vaccines, and multiple studies and scientific reviews have found no association between vaccination and deaths except in rare cases.”

Miller et al on Deaths following vaccination: What does the evidence show?
Quite simply the figure are garbage in garbage out.
Feel free to have a look yourself and make up a heap of excuses.
It reminds me of your pilots against 911 where most were not pilots but flight attendents and ticket sellers
or your engineers agaisnt 911 where anyone could join and sign up.


Death from measles versus death from the measles vaccine in America.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rfCu9dwb7Fo" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What we do have real if complete data is over the last 15 years over 51 people have died of autopsy confirmed peanut allergies in the USA. out of about 103 food allergy deaths.
Given that more food allegy deaths occur than are reported more people died in the same period eating food than getting vaccinated.

[Katman]

You posted this figure the number in the database as having adverse reactions causing death for the lat ten years is 88
he used 15 years but the data base accesability for a non doctor is only 10 years
the thing is the data is not from doctors nor does it require a autopsy or death certificate any person myself included can put any outcome or drug reaction in you like.
Looking at the figures someone has been adding in deaths and averse reaction in 2016 and 2017. at a rate about 10o times higher than any year previously
Quite simply the figure are garbage in garbage out.
Feel free to have a look yourself and make up a heap of excuses.
It reminds me of your pilots against 911 where most were not pilots but flight attendents and ticket sellers
or your engineers agaisnt 911 where anyone could join and sign up.

What the fuck are you talking about?

[TheDemonLord]

Since when are the two mutually exclusive? I'd bet long odds on a study finding a tolerably high degree of correlation between the two.

Not sure if we can, or should extend your somewhat.... unlikely charity to an assumption there's an actual causation re stupidity -> malice though.

Stupid doesn't know/understand what it is doing.
Malice knows damn well and continues anyway.

[oldrider]

Vaccine Skepticism In Australia Now Punishable By 10 Years In Jail - https://explainlife.com/vaccine-skepticism-in-australia-now-punishable-by-10-years-in-jail-6460/ - :Police: State? - Compulsory mass medication?

[TheDemonLord]

Vaccine Skepticism In Australia Now Punishable By 10 Years In Jail - https://explainlife.com/vaccine-skepticism-in-australia-now-punishable-by-10-years-in-jail-6460/ - :Police: State? - Compulsory mass medication?

Bit of a misleading title - when it only applies to Medical Professionals...

[Katman]

Bit of a misleading title - when it only applies to Medical Professionals...

So if medical professionals are now facing being harshly penalised if they talk about the risks involved in vaccination, it makes a mockery of the whole 'informed consent' process, don't you think?

[TheDemonLord]

So if medical professionals are now facing being harshly penalised if they talk about the risks involved in vaccination, it makes a mockery of the whole 'informed consent' process, don't you think?

Not at all, the question will be whether they are talking about the actual risks vs the made-up risks put forth by the likes of Mr. Wakefield.

Need I remind you that a child is more likely to die in a Car Crash on the way to the Doctors to get the Vaccine, than die from the Vaccine.

Do you Drive? Would you put your kids (if you had them) in the car?

[Katman]

Need I remind you that a child is more likely to die in a Car Crash on the way to the Doctors to get the Vaccine, than die from the Vaccine.

Do you Drive? Would you put your kids (if you had them) in the car?

Need I remind you that more children die in car crashes than die from contracting measles?

[Katman]

Need I remind you that a child is more likely to die in a Car Crash on the way to the Doctors to get the Vaccine, than die from the Vaccine.

Do you Drive? Would you put your kids (if you had them) in the car?

And btw, go back and read post #4375 and see if you can now figure out why I asked the question.

[TheDemonLord]

Need I remind you that more children die in car crashes than die from contracting measles?

You almost got the point...

The difference is the 'Preventable' part.

[Katman]

You almost got the point...

The difference is the 'Preventable' part.

If you want to play words games then not driving the child to get their vaccination would prevent them from dying in the car crash too.

[TheDemonLord]

If you want to play words games then not driving the child to get their vaccination would prevent them from dying in the car crash too.

Except there is a benefit to Driving places.

There's no benefit in risking catching Measles.

[Katman]

Except there is a benefit to Driving places.

Not if you die from it.

[WALRUS]

This conversation...

https://media.giphy.com/media/yZWjlaXWUGZ9K/giphy.gif

[TheDemonLord]

Not if you die from it.

Same goes for Measles.

The difference is there is a Benefit to taking the Risk of Driving
There is no Benefit to taking the risk of catching a fatal disease.

[Katman]

There is no Benefit to taking the risk of catching a fatal disease.

Dude, it can be a fatal disease in a very tiny percentage of cases.

Stop making it sound like you're guaranteed to die if you contract measles.

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, it can be a fatal disease in a very tiny percentage of cases.

Stop making it sound like you're guaranteed to die if you contract measles.

But people DO die from contracting it.

Do you get any benefit from contracting it?

Is it like the Comics books where if I get Measles I suddenly get a super Power? Oh? It isn't? Well, then - piss off with your false equivalency.

[Katman]

Is it like the Comics books where if I get Measles I suddenly get a super Power? Oh? It isn't? Well, then - piss off with your false equivalency.

No, you caught autism instead.

[TheDemonLord]

No, you caught autism instead.

Well, if that's the case - it's paid for my House, it's paid for my Motorbike, it's paid for my Family.

Not too bad, as far as 'Super Powers' go then...

[Katman]

Well, if that's the case - it's paid for my House, it's paid for my Motorbike, it's paid for my Family.

Not too bad, as far as 'Super Powers' go then...

Dude, you don't need super powers to get those things.

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, you don't need super powers to get those things.

I think you missed the point, yet again.

[husaberg]

Need I remind you that more children die in car crashes than die from contracting measles?

Thats only because of large scale vaccinations. Children also take far more car rides than they have vaccinations but dont let facts get in the way of a good misleading misdirection.;)

Cool another one

Dude, it can be a fatal disease in a very tiny percentage of cases.

Stop making it sound like you're guaranteed to die if you contract measles.
World wide You are far more likely to die from measles than die from getting a vaccination for Measles.


As of 2013, measles remains the leading cause of vaccine-preventable deaths in the world. In developed countries, death occurs in one to two cases out of every 1,000 (0.1–0.2%). In populations with high levels of malnutrition and a lack of adequate healthcare, mortality can be as high as 10%.

Vs 1 in a million for Vaccine related Death.



But you know more than the WHO and the CDC and all the medical profession.
What is you medical training again?

[Katman]

Children also take far more car rides than they have vaccinations but dont let facts get in the way of a good misleading misdirection.;)

Dude, it was TDL who brought up the car ride idea.

[husaberg]

Dude, it was TDL who brought up the car ride idea.

Was that an excuse for you to post misleading information then?
Or is it you dont know any better and are just grasping at straws as you can produce a single shread of credible evidence to support your far fetched accusations.

ps the fact you only reply to posts you heavily edit first proves you don't have credible information to back up the accusations you make. So you run and hide

[Katman]

Vs 1 in a million for Vaccine related Death.

Just going on the Lancet article I posted earlier, there were 200,000 cases of measles in Japan in 2000 with 88 deaths.

That's 0.044% died of those who contracted the disease.

I wonder what the percentage of those who died is compared to the total number of people in Japan.

[husaberg]

Just going on the Lancet article I posted earlier, there were 200,000 cases of measles in Japan in 2000 with 88 deaths.

That's 0.044% died of those who contracted the disease.

I wonder what the percentage of those who died is compared to the total number of people in Japan.

Yet Japan has a vaccination rate over 80% so you point is mute. Not to mention if you are going to quote information get it right
There was AN ESTIMATED 200,000 CASES.

Despite these global efforts, however, measles is still endemic in Japan: there were an estimated 200 000 cases and 88 deaths (mainly in children) in 2000.
Japan tends not to report their measles related deaths each year as it makes them look a little silly.


Okinawa, a Measles-endemic Prefecture
in Japan
In 1998–1999, Okinawa Prefecture recorded 2,304 cases of measles, including 8 infant deaths.
In 2001, measles affected 1,565 persons and killed1 infant, as shown in Fig. 1. This figure highlights the remarkably high occurrence of measles in Okinawa in comparison with the national average. During this period, there were many measles
patients whose condition was severe enough torequire admission to ICUs. There also were many cases of gestational and perinatal measles and infant measles.
More than 450 patients with measles were admitted to Okinawa Prefectural Chubu Hospital in this period. The data of patients admitted to its ICU and patients with perinatal measles arediscussed below.
There were 13 patients with measles who were admitted to the ICU, 6 male and 7 female children. Of these, 5 patients were aged less than a year, 7 were aged 1, and 1 was aged 3. Two patients were extremely low-birth-weight infants(730g and 898g) who had been discharged from the neonatal ICU. The major complications of measles observed were pneumonia and ARDS
(acute respiratory distress syndrome) in 9 cases, encephalitis in 4 cases, and hemophagocytic syndrome in 2 cases, with some overlap; 4 patients died.
The cases of gestational and perinatal measles are shown in Table 1.
1 Eight pregnant and 3 postpartum women contracted measles. Maternal
complications were spontaneous abortion in 2 cases and pneumonia in 1 case. Four of the neo-nates developed measles (Table 2).2 One neonate developed pneumonia and recovered. There were no deaths in either the mothers or the neonates. Gestational and perinatal measles is known to result in a higher mortality rate than measles in women in general. Starting from this period we have been conducting an educational campaign in Okinawa, emphasizing that measles is a disease that can affect everybody, from neonates to adults https://www.med.or.jp/english/journal/pdf/2010_01/019_023.pdf

Note Japan people are also highly hygiene conscious and often a high percentage wear masks outside. they also dont tend to touch as other cultures do.

but using rather simple maths ,Measles vaccine complication death rate is generally 1/Million for 88 people to die from vaccination it would take 88 million vaccinations. Using this common rule of thumb
Japan population is only 126 million. BTW.
Most japanese are only getting one jab and even if they get two its only less than 50%vof those each year the older kid that were not immunized earleir and the ones about 3. so likely on 15%or less of the population are getting a measles vaccination /year
But Japan and the world also vaccinate for more than just measles

[matt.of.the.ingh]

Just going on the Lancet article I posted earlier, there were 200,000 cases of measles in Japan in 2000 with 88 deaths.

That's 0.044% died of those who contracted the disease.

I wonder what the percentage of those who died is compared to the total number of people in Japan.

Why would you wonder such a useless fact?

What would be interesting is the percentage of people who died compared to the number of people who weren't vaccinated.

But even that would be a false figure, because Japan is a developed country with good health care and a well nurished population.

What is the point that you thought you were going to make?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

What is the point that you thought you were going to make?

That in the year 2000 there were 88 deaths from measles out of a population of approx. 120 million.

My calculator won't even work out that percentage in a form that I can understand. But as far as I can make out it's lots and lots of zeros after the decimal point.

[matt.of.the.ingh]

That in the year 2000 there were 88 deaths from measles out of a population of approx. 120 million.

My calculator won't even work out that percentage in a form that I can understand. But as far as I can make out it's lots and lots of zeros after the decimal point.


That in the year 2000 there were 88 deaths from measles out of a population of approx. 120 million.

Yes. That's just repeating things you've been told. Why is that point relevant to the discussion?

You see most of those 120 million are vaccinated. Whilst the vaccines weren't 100% effective that still means that most of the population don't count towards the number of people susceptible to measles.

It's like if you tried to prove motorbike accidents aren't dangerous by pointing out how many car drivers don't die from them. They just aren't relevant.

Them you have to remember that of the people who haven't had the vaccines are all the disabled, sick, pregnant women etc who rely on herd immunity to keep them safe. Remember, the ones who can't be vaccinated.
I posted you a link.
I'm sure you would have read it because you.... Well, look back and try again. It's easy to read, I promise.

To make it really relevant you'd also have to look into diets and make sure that your sample reflected the diets of all people everywhere in the world. Because the mortality rate for measles is calculated world wide, not for a single generation in Japan.

So. In 2000, in Japan 88 people died from measles out of a total population of 126 million.

What point do you think those figures make, other than that you have no idea what they mean?

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[husaberg]

That in the year 2000 there were 88 deaths from measles out of a population of approx. 120 million.

My calculator won't even work out that percentage in a form that I can understand. But as far as I can make out it's lots and lots and lots of zeros after the decimal point.
The reason you cant understand is like you, pretty simple
of those 120 million over 80% were vaccinated already
of the remaining 26 million about 40-60% likely have had Measles previously .
Of the remainder likely 15% were vaccinated that year
of the remainder who knows how many were actually exposed to the measles.
But note as always its mainly the children that died.
you seek to say children don't die from measles yet its clear they do even in countries with first clas medical care and hygiene.
Why dont you write to the parents of those 88 achildren that died and tell them how its okay their children died of measles which is easily prevented by simple vaccination because you think vaccination is not needed.

[Katman]

Why dont you write to the parents of those 88 achildren that died and tell them how its okay their children died of measles which is easily prevented by simple vaccination because you think vaccination is not needed.

Well if the parents of those 88 children chose not to vaccinate their children then I imagine they accept that their loss is attributable to their actions.

I don't quite see why my opinion would or should matter to them.

[husaberg]

Well if the parents of those 88 children chose not to vaccinate their children then I imagine they accept that their loss is attributable to their actions.

I don't quite see why my opinion would or should matter to them.

Ironic as you seem to think your ill informed opinion matters full stop.
Why do you not write to them and tell them they are heros to the anti VAX cause then and see what they say.
Ask them if there is a day that goes past that they don't regret not vaccinating their children.
You are quick to throw out glib remarks and spead false information so why not take the VAX trolling to another level and do it in person.
As you ignored the correction of your latest ill informed rant you must accept it was woeful and are to embarred to reply to that.
You would have to wonder why you comment on the rates of measles or any stat aty all if you cant figure out most of the population of japan was vaccinated and only a minor percent was exposed to Measles in the first place.
Yet you claim to know better than Doctors and medical professionals about Vaccine safety.
https://media.giphy.com/media/yZWjlaXWUGZ9K/giphy.gif
As the merry go round comment that Walrus made you talk around in circles never offering proof of anything and when you are called out or shown to be wrong you just ignore it and post another myth or other piece of misinformation.
You seem to not understand you are talking about children's lives and the misinformation you knowingly continue to spread could endanger a child's life.
Either that or more likly you do realise and are that narcistic you get a kick out of spreading false information in the hope some kid will die from it.
whats the bet you change the subject agin three more times this week and all the while bringing up stuff that was already discredited here previously

[Katman]

....your latest ill informed rant......

There was nothing ill informed about it.

88 people died out of a population of approx. 120 million.

It's called putting it into perspective.

[matt.of.the.ingh]

There was nothing ill informed about it.

88 people died out of a population of approx. 120 million.

It's called putting it into perspective.Sorry Katman. Somehow you seem to have completely missed my earlier post explaining that no, your comment does not give a sense of positive, or anything else. It's just a complete misunderstanding of statistics which makes you look really foolish.

Here it is again for you.
This time read the words. I'm afraid there aren't any pictures to help you.

Sorry everyone else, it takes a village to raise an idiot and all that....

You see (Katman) most of those 120 million are vaccinated. Whilst the vaccines weren't 100% effective that still means that most of the population don't count towards the number of people susceptible to measles.

It's like if you tried to prove motorbike accidents aren't dangerous by pointing out how many car drivers don't die from them. They just aren't relevant.

Them you have to remember that of the people who haven't had the vaccines are all the disabled, sick, pregnant women etc who rely on herd immunity to keep them safe. Remember, the ones who can't be vaccinated.

I posted you a link.

I'm sure you would have read it because you.... Well, look back and try again. It's easy to read, I promise.

To make it really relevant you'd also have to look into diets and make sure that your sample reflected the diets of all people everywhere in the world. Because the mortality rate for measles is calculated world wide, not for a single generation in Japan.

So. In 2000, in Japan 88 people died from measles out of a total population of 126 million didn't tell us anything at all about infection rates, mortality rates or anything else.
Your comment is the very definition of ill informed.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

Sorry Katman. Somehow you seem to have completely missed my earlier post explaining that no, your comment does not give a sense of positive, or anything else. It's just a complete misunderstanding of statistics which makes you look really foolish.

Here it is again for you.
This time read the words. I'm afraid there aren't any pictures to help you.

Sorry everyone else, it takes a village to raise an idiot and all that....

You see (Katman) most of those 120 million are vaccinated. Whilst the vaccines weren't 100% effective that still means that most of the population don't count towards the number of people susceptible to measles.

It's like if you tried to prove motorbike accidents aren't dangerous by pointing out how many car drivers don't die from them. They just aren't relevant.

Them you have to remember that of the people who haven't had the vaccines are all the disabled, sick, pregnant women etc who rely on herd immunity to keep them safe. Remember, the ones who can't be vaccinated.

I posted you a link.

I'm sure you would have read it because you.... Well, look back and try again. It's easy to read, I promise.

To make it really relevant you'd also have to look into diets and make sure that your sample reflected the diets of all people everywhere in the world. Because the mortality rate for measles is calculated world wide, not for a single generation in Japan.

So. In 2000, in Japan 88 people died from measles out of a total population of 126 million didn't tell us anything at all about infection rates, mortality rates or anything else.
Your comment is the very definition of ill informed.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

The way you keep repeating yourself makes you sound like the Berk's twin.

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, it was TDL who brought up the car ride idea.

In order to show that people, including Anti-Vaxxers, regularly engage in far riskier activities, on a more regular basis, with their children, than Vaccines.

And therefore the claim of 'I just want to protect my children from potential harm' is demonstrably Bullshit.

[FJRider]

So lets get rid of Helmets then because more people die who are wearing Helmets....



Did the people that died wearing helmets have Measles ..?? ... AND would the people that died of Measles not die if they were wearing a helmet ... ??

If the answer to both questions is no ... your comparison is irrelevant in your argument.

More people die from Cancer than those in road accidents wearing crash helmets. Should those dying of cancer wear crash helmets to prevent death ... ???

Simple fact that in New Zealand (anyway) ... the probability of dying of measles is a lot less (Gross understatement) than dying with a crash helmet on ...

To totally prevent your own death on a motorcycle ... DON'T ride a motorcycle. It's that simple.

Get a Measles vaccination ... and you'll have a pretty good chance that you won't die of the Measles. Even with no vaccination ... you have a better than average chance that measles won't kill you.

Reduce the chance of death even more ... by wearing a condom.

At the end of the day ... it's (YOUR) personal choice on ALL these options.

[Katman]

In order to show that people, including Anti-Vaxxers, regularly engage in far riskier activities, on a more regular basis, with their children, than Vaccines.

And likewise, far riskier than dying from measles.

[TheDemonLord]

Did the people that died wearing helmets have Measles ..?? ... AND would the people that died of Measles not die if they were wearing a helmet ... ??

If the answer to both questions is no ... your comparison is irrelevant in your argument.

More people die from Cancer than those in road accidents wearing crash helmets. Should those dying of cancer wear crash helmets to prevent death ... ???

Simple fact that in New Zealand (anyway) ... the probability of dying of measles is a lot less (Gross understatement) than dying with a crash helmet on ...

To totally prevent your own death on a motorcycle ... DON'T ride a motorcycle. It's that simple.

Get a Measles vaccination ... and you'll have a pretty good chance that you won't die of the Measles. Even with no vaccination ... you have a better than average chance that measles won't kill you.

Reduce the chance of death even more ... by wearing a condom.

At the end of the day ... it's (YOUR) personal choice on ALL these options.

Sure - right up until your personal choice compromises others personal Safety. And that is the crux of the issue - if the rate falls below 95-90%, then Herd immunity starts to wear off. You might not want to Vaccinate your child - but what if that choice results in your child being a carrier of the Pathogen, which in turn causes the death of another Child.

Does your personal choice include personal responsibility for Negligence causing Death/Serious Injury?

The point about Helmets was to demonstrate the deliberate false premise of Katman's video: More people in NZ die who are wearing Helmets than people who don't wear Helmets, just like the argument in the Video is more people die from getting the Vaccine than from Measles. However, in both cases, it deliberately ignores the function/effect and frequency of Helmet usage/Vaccine usage.

The reason it's an absurd comparison is to show the absurdity of the original video.

[TheDemonLord]

And likewise, far riskier than dying from measles.

Except you ignore that unlike those riskier activities there is ZERO benefit to contacting Measles.

When you take a Car ride, the benefit is being able to travel a longer distance or faster or carrying a heavier load than if you walk.

What is the benefit of contracting Measles?

[Katman]

Except you ignore that unlike those riskier activities there is ZERO benefit to contacting Measles.

I haven't ignored anything.

Dying from measles is still far less risky than countless other activities that we partake in.


What is the benefit of contracting Measles?

Natural lifetime immunity.

[TheDemonLord]

I haven't ignored anything.

Dying from measles is still far less risky than countless other activities that we partake in.

You're ignoring the Benefits part of the equation. Plenty of things have risk and also have reward. Contracting Measles has Risk and no Reward.


Natural lifetime immunity.

Which is the same process by which the Vaccine works, so...

[Katman]

Which is the same process by which the Vaccine works, so...

Minus the mercury, aluminium, polysorbate 80, formaldehyde etc. etc.

[TheDemonLord]

Minus the mercury, aluminium, polysorbate 80, formaldehyde etc. etc.

In exceptionally tiny amounts, yes?
Amounts so small that the average person (without vaccination) will be exposed to far greater amounts over the course of their life?

[Katman]

Amounts so small that the average person (without vaccination) will be exposed to far greater amounts over the course of their life?

Not injected into them though.

[TheDemonLord]

Not injected into them though.

So none of those can cross the Stomach or Lungs into the bloodstream...

or...

You're talking crap (again)

[husaberg]

There was nothing ill informed about it.

88 people died out of a population of approx. 120 million.

It's called putting it into perspective.

It a tragedy they you would even contemplate that what you posted wasnt ill informed drivel
You state but only 88 people died out of a population but dont consider 80% of the population was vaccinated and only a few % were even exposed to the disease yet 88 people mostly children needlessly died.
These 88 real human that died of an easy prevented disease.

You might want to look up what perspective means
its means a frame of reference
You didn't provide a frame of reference you attempted either through malicious intent or more likely total ineptitude misrepresented the effectiveness of the 80+% who were vaccinated
They are thus highly unlikely to either develop the disease and consequently die from it either.
What was funny in you doing so you proved to most intelligent people the best proof that vaccination saves lives.
It also proves due to your lack of facts to back you up you have to distort information or are too thick to notice you are talking crap.
its estimated 200,000 people got Measles 88 died.
compared to 1 per million that died from vaccines from a rare reaction, Far less people than that have bee or Peanut alleges that could cause them death if exposed.
yET YOU ATTEMPT TO PRESENT THIS AS BEING A GREATER RISK

200,000 measles cases 88 dead that's 1 in 2272 compared to 1 in a million go figure out the maths, but i suspect you would rather fetch

[Katman]

So none of those can cross the Stomach or Lungs into the bloodstream...

or...

You're talking crap (again)

There's this thing called the blood/brain barrier.

Polysorbate 80 is used to overcome that barrier.

[TheDemonLord]

There's this thing called the blood/brain barrier.

Polysorbate 80 is used to overcome that barrier.

The argument you are trying to make is predicated on a whole load of supposition, devoid of any actual data.

AKA, you're still talking crap. Again.

[Katman]

The argument you are trying to make is predicated on a whole load of supposition, devoid of any actual data.

AKA, you're still talking crap. Again.

It's predicated on scientific study.

Look it up.

[husaberg]

Minus the mercury, aluminium, polysorbate 80, formaldehyde etc. etc.

So you have gone full circle in less than week with no proof on a new series of Gish gallops. which are a repeat of your last series and the series before.
In no particular order We have
the Wakefeild data Autism disproved
No one dies disproved
More people die from the vaccination than the disease disproved.
No its Hygiene and medicine actually prevent the deaths not the vaccination disproved The antivaxers even resort to data manipulation as seen here.https://thelogicofscience.com/2015/07/05/yes-vaccines-did-save-us-from-disease-a-graphic-analysis/
More people everyday are questioning the safety of vaccines Disproved
The vaccines have nasty ingredients that cause all sorts of stuff Disproved
No buggars going to make me Vaccinate anything Disproved the kennel club made him vaccinate his dog. He has no kids but as his wife wears the pants anyway so they would likely get vaccinated if he had any.
I am not vaccinated and i am okay Disproved not only has he had the entire vaccination schedule for his age he is clearly not okay and suffers delusions and has an inferiority complex.
I know more than dotors and medical professional do about vaccine safety Disproved a boys scout badge and a B2 in School cert English is not really a superior qualification than a Medical diploma
Its all a big pharma conspiracy idiotic

What is more funny is you have got worse at it than last time you posted the same drivel but this time you kept contracting your self on a daily basis rather than yourv usual weekly routine..
Not only that your latest attempts to misrepresent data makes you appear either increasing desperate or highly stupid.

[Katman]

.....makes you appear either increasing desperate or highly stupid

Oh the irony.

[FJRider]

Sure - right up until your personal choice compromises others personal Safety.

And YOUR personal choices and beliefs may affect MY personal safety on the roads. But do I tell you how you should ride ... ??? And if I did ... would you take heed ... ???


Does your personal choice include personal responsibility for Negligence causing Death/Serious Injury?

Fact of NZ legislation ... those responsible should be held responsible for their actions ... if necessary in a court of law. Would you have it any other way ... ???


The point about Helmets was to demonstrate the deliberate false premise of Katman's video: More people in NZ die who are wearing Helmets than people who don't wear Helmets, just like the argument in the Video is more people die from getting the Vaccine than from Measles. However, in both cases, it deliberately ignores the function/effect and frequency of Helmet usage/Vaccine usage.

More people die in their sleep than those die wearing crash helmets. Your comparisons are absurd.


The reason it's an absurd comparison is to show the absurdity of the original video.

Absurdity admitted. I rest my case ... using absurdity to argue absurdity is ... well absurd.

I hope your decision making on the roads is better thought out than those you make in these forums ...

[Katman]

Here's an idea for some of you.....

Google something along the lines of 'studies showing the synergistic relationship between different vaccine ingredients' and let us know what you find.

'Cos I haven't managed to find anything in all my searching so far.

[FJRider]

In order to show that people, including Anti-Vaxxers, regularly engage in far riskier activities, on a more regular basis, with their children, than Vaccines.

You mean they're motorcyclists too ... ???


And therefore the claim of 'I just want to protect my children from potential harm' is demonstrably Bullshit.

As long as they have a crash helmet and a leather jacket of some kind ... what could possibly go wrong ... ??

[husaberg]

Anti-Vaccine Lies Vaccine Truths
Since your kids are vaccinated, it shouldn’t matter that I don’t vaccinate mine. One last time – some kids are at risk because they are too young to be vaccinated, have a true medical contraindication to getting vaccinated, or perhaps their vaccine didn’t work, and so your unvaccinated kid can put them at risk.
Herd immunity is a myth. Anti-vaccine folks simply do not understand herd immunity.
Doctors don’t learn anything about vaccines in medical school. Most doctors learn a lot about vaccines in school, but it is easy to see that some doctors don’t learn anything about vaccines in medical school – they are the ones who create their own immunization schedules and warn parents that vaccines are dangerous.
Vaccines didn’t save us – it was improved living conditions, better nutrition, indoor plumbing, and sanitation. If this were true, then how come these factors didn’t also stop RSV, norovirus, HIV, and other non-vaccine-preventable diseases?
Vaccine free kids are healthier than those who get vaccines. They aren’t. They just get more vaccine-preventable diseases. Did you know that there are unvaccinated kids with autism?
Vaccine ingredients are toxic. The ingredients in vaccines are not toxic. Remember, the wise words of Paracelsus, the father of toxicology, “Solely the dose determines that a thing is not a poison”
Vaccines aren’t tested. Vaccines are well tested before being approved and continue to be tested for safety and efficacy after we begin using them. They are even tested together.
Vaccine makers have immunity from any liability. If vaccine manufacturers are free of any liability, then why is there a vaccine lawsuit against Merck about the mumps vaccine? Vaccine manufacturers have liability for their vaccines and can still be sued by parents, although they do typically have to go through Vaccine Court first.
SIDS was made up to cover up for vaccine deaths. Except that infants died of SIDS before we had vaccines.
The anti-vaccine movement is based on science. The anti-vaccine movement is based on fear, conspiracy theories, and pseudoscience.
If a wound bleeds, you don’t need a tetanus shot. Whether or not a wound bleeds, you may need a tetanus shot and tetanus immune immunoglobulin if it has been more than five years since your last vaccine.
Shedding from vaccinated kids start most outbreaks. Few vaccines shed and even those that do are rarely the cause of outbreaks, which can typically be traced to an unvaccinated children or adult.
Kids get too many vaccines and it can overwhelm their immune system. Infants do have an immature immune system, which is one reason why they need protection from vaccines, but it is mature enough to respond to those vaccines as maternal protection quickly fades.
“DTP scream” is caused by encephalitis. Prolonged crying after getting a DTP or DTaP vaccine is a painful local reaction and is not caused by encephalitis.
Package inserts prove that vaccines cause SIDS, autism, and meningitis. Folks who use the package insert argument just don’t understand how package inserts are written.
Kids are still getting exposed to just as mercury in vaccines as ever. Since most flu vaccines are now thimerosal free, few if any kids are exposed to thimerosal in vaccines.
Aluminum in vaccines is toxic. Aluminum in vaccines is not toxic.
Vaccines contain aborted fetal tissue. Some vaccines are made with descendant cells from two electively terminated pregnancies (abortions) in the 1960s, so those vaccines have a distant association with abortion, but there is no fetal tissue or aborted baby parts in any vaccine.
No one believed Ignaz Semmelweis and he was later proven to be right. Yes, but just because we think you are wrong, that doesn’t make you Semmelweis. It is more likely that you are just wrong.
Andrew Wakefield is not a fraud. Uh, yeah he is.
Vaccines aren’t safe and cause cancer because the package insert says that they aren’t evaluated for mutagenicity, carcinogenicity and impairment of fertility. The section of the package insert that talks about mutagenicity, carcinogenicity and impairment of fertility is talking about long term studies. All vaccines have preclinical toxicology studies to see if those long term studies need to be done. Typically they are not, so aren’t evaluated because it isn’t necessary to do so, not because this testing was just skipped.
Higher infant mortality rates in the United States prove that vaccines aren’t safe. Infant mortality rates have nothing to do with vaccines and vaccine-preventable diseases. And they have been decreasing to ever lower levels.
Vaccine side effects are underreported to VAERS. While that is likely true, they aren’t underreported by as much as folks think, and serious side effects are likely reported much more commonly.
Pediatricians get vaccine bonuses. Pediatricians don’t routinely get vaccine bonuses. And they certainly don’t get millions of dollars in bonus money.
Infants get too high a dose of vaccines, because they get the same dose as adults. Vaccines are not typically calibrated by age or weight, because they work locally, stimulating an immune response where they are given, unlike antibiotics and other medicines that have travel throughout your whole body.
Kids are all different, so we shouldn’t use a one-size-fits-all immunization schedule. The immunization schedule has a lot of flexibility built into it, and with its list of precautions and contraindications, it it clearly not one-size-fits-all.
Andrew Wakefield was right. Andrew Wakefield has never been proven to be right. If anything, more and more studies show that he was wrong.
I have a religious exemption to getting my kids vaccinated. Which religion do you belong to? Most religions support getting kids vaccinated and protected. In fact, some consider it immoral to skip your child’s vaccines and leave them unprotected.
The Leicester Method proves that good sanitation and quarantines – not the smallpox vaccine – eradicated smallpox. While this is a nice theory, a booklet written by the medical officer from the time clearly shows that The Leicester Method included the use of the smallpox vaccine.
Vaccines aren’t safe because they are unavoidably unsafe. The term “unavoidably unsafe” relates to liability and doesn’t mean that vaccines are dangerous.
Polio was caused by DDT. There is no connection between DDT and polio.
Vaccine-preventable diseases are easily treated. They are easily treated in the sense that most don’t have any treatments, so there is not much to do, but not that you can provide treatment and make these folks better.
There are 300 new vaccines in the pipeline. Unfortunately, very few new vaccines are being developed for infectious diseases in children, at least not any vaccines that will be available any time soon.
Breastfeeding is better than vaccines at preventing infections. While breastfeeding has many benefits, it will not protect your kids from most vaccine-preventable diseases.
Ingredients in vaccines are toxic because they are injected directly into a child’s bloodstream and aren’t ingested and filtered by the body’s natural defenses. Vaccine ingredients are not toxic.
The media should give equal time to doctors and parents who are against vaccines. The media has gotten better at avoiding that type of false balance.
Vaccines don’t cover outbreak strains that cause measles and pertussis outbreaks. DTaP and measles vaccines cover all wild strains of pertussis and measles.
Kids get sick from vaccines in hot lots. Reports of hot lots come from misuse of VAERS reports. There are no true hot lots of vaccines.
People never regret not vaccinating their kids. Many parents do regret not vaccinating their kids when they get sick and catch a vaccine-preventable disease.
You have to quarantine your kids after they are vaccinated because of shedding. If you can get vaccines if you are a household contact of someone with compromised immunity, do you really need to worry about your neighbor vaccinating their kids during back-to-school “shedding season?”
Everything is a vaccine injury. While vaccines have some risks, most of what anti-vaccine folks thinks of as vaccine-induced diseases are not caused by vaccines.
The Brady Bunch measles episode proves that folks were never worried about measles. If Mr. and Mrs. Brady weren’t worried when all six Brady Bunch kids got measles at the same time, then why did they each call a pediatrician and have them come to the house to check all of the kids?
Polio disappeared because we changed the diagnostic criteria. Vaccines helped eliminate polio in the United States and is helping us get close to the final goal of eradication.
Vaccines cause Autoimmune/Inflammatory Syndrome Induced by Adjuvants. Most experts consider ASIA a made up syndrome.
Natural immunity is better than immunity from a vaccine. While natural immunity is great, it often comes at a price. You have to survive the disease and its complications. Most folks prefer a safer route – getting vaccinated.
Graphs prove that vaccines don’t work. Graphs are misused by folks as propaganda to make them think that vaccines don’t work. #VaccinesWork
Ex-vaxxers never change their mind. Reasonable people change their minds when presented with evidence. Many anti-vaccine parents change their minds and begin vaccinating their kids again.
Homeopathic vaccines are just as good as vaccines. Homeopathic vaccines, which are diluted to nothing, with just a memory of the original ingredient, don’t work.
Vaccines made in China are used in the United States. While vaccines are made in China, they are used in China and in some other countries – not in the United States.
Vaccine strain measles causes outbreaks. In every measles outbreak, there is always someone who asks – is it the vaccine strain? It never is…
Vaccine-preventable diseases are mild. Vaccine-preventable diseases often cause life-threatening infections with serious complications.
We are only afraid of diseases once they make a vaccine for it. If this were true, then why are parents so afraid of RSV? And why was there so much panic about Ebola? And why were folks put into Leper colonies?
Kids get 72 doses of vaccines. The idea of 72 doses is an inflated number that is meant to scare parents.
Vaccines aren’t necessary anymore. Know why you don’t hear about a lot of kids getting tetanus, rabies and other vaccine-preventable diseases anymore? Because most folks get vaccinated and protected. What happens when you don’t? Vaccines are necessary.
Vaccine deaths are common. Vaccine deaths are rare. They only seem common when folks misuse VAERS reports.
Folks who choose to skip or delay vaccines are smarter than everyone else. Parents who choose to skip or delay their child’s vaccines are not making smart decisions about vaccines.
Vaccines don’t prevent the spread of disease. Almost all vaccines do prevent the spread of disease.
Andrew Wakefield never said anything about autism. Except he did, at the press conference for his 1998 Lancet study, which was later retracted.
The US Government lost a landmark lawsuit that proves they haven’t done any safety studies on vaccines in over 30 years. While a settled lawsuit showed that they may have not filed the necessary reports, all safety studies and other things necessary to ensure that vaccines are safe have been done over the past 30 years.
Tetanus only lives in farm animal manure. Every anti-vaccine person thinks that they are an expert on tetanus. Are you going to bet your child’s life that they are right? Don’t. They are typically wrong… Tetanus spores can be found in dust, soil, feces, and in the mouths of some animals.
Hand,Foot and Mouth Disease is vaccine-induced and is caused by shedding from the polio vaccine. The study anti-vaccine folks used to come up with this theory actually said that the polio vaccine might be protective against hand, foot, and mouth disease.
You should detox after vaccines. You don’t need to detox after getting vaccines, but even if you did, the stuff folks tell you to do is a waste of time and money and is sometimes dangerous.
Alternative vaccine schedules are safe. Alternative vaccine schedules are made up and have no evidence that they are safe or effective? How could they be dangerous? Your child might get a vaccine-preventable disease on your delayed schedule…
You shouldn’t vaccinate your kids if they have signs of a MTHFR mutation. The so-called MTHFR signs you read about are made up and are certainly not a reason to skip or delay your child’s vaccines.
Vaccines contain heavy metals. Vaccines do not contain any heavy metals. The closest that you might find would be a flu vaccine with thimerosal, as mercury is indeed a heavy metal and thimerosal breaks down to ethylmercury. But then, the great majority of flu vaccines are now thimerosal-free.
Aluminum replaced thimerosal in vaccines. Aluminum is an adjuvant, while thimerosal was a preservative. Aluminum didn’t replace thimerosal in vaccines, although anti-vaccine folks did go out of their way to make aluminum the new thing for parents to worry about.
Amish people don’t get autism. There are autistic Amish, and no, it’s not because they vaccinate.
The CDC is hiding data on vaccines, mercury, and autism. This is just another conspiracy theory.
I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m pro-safe vaccine. You can call yourself pro-safe vaccine or whatever else you want, but if you push anti-vaccine myths and propaganda, then you are anti-vaccine.
We are more careful about introducing baby food to kids than giving them vaccines. Wait. This is really an argument now? Baby food?
Vaccine Court has compensated over 70 families for autism. They have not.
You can’t get rabies from dog or cat bites anymore. You are unlikely to get rabies from a dog or cat these days in the United States, but only because most folks vaccinate their pets and people get rabies treatments if they are possibly exposed to an animal with rabies.
Pediatricians are just vaccine pushers. Then why don’t pediatricians push all available vaccines to everyone, like the adenovirus vaccine, BCG vaccine, Pneumovax, typhoid vaccine, and yellow fever vaccine, etc., instead of only using them in high risk situations?
The CDC owns vaccine patents and sells billions of dollars in vaccines each year. While the CDC does own some vaccine patents, they don’t sell vaccines.
Sweden banned mandatory vaccination Sweden has never had mandatory vaccination, so there was nothing to ban.
Utah banned the HPV vaccine. One local health department in Utah has decided to not offer the HPV vaccine, but it isn’t banned. You just have to get it at private clinics.
It’s dangerous to give kids Tylenol after they have had a vaccine. While there is some concern that giving Tylenol before your child’s vaccines might decrease the immune response, it isn’t dangerous.
There are hidden ingredients in vaccines. There are no hidden ingredients in vaccines.
More people are dying of viral hepatitis since the hepatitis A and hepatitis B vaccines were introduced. Nope. More people are dying of hepatitis C, but that isn’t vaccine preventable yet.
Anti-vaccine experts know a lot about autism. Anti-vaccine folks don’t seem to know anything about autism, except how to hurt autistic families.
The latest autism prevalence reports prove that there is an autism epidemic and that it is caused by vaccines. The latest report on autism prevalence from the CDC shows a rate that has increased to 1 in 59 children. And as county level trends in vaccination coverage show no correlation to those autism prevalence rates, folks will hopefully stop trying to associate vaccines with autism.
Vaccine mandates take away a parents choice to vaccinate their kids. Vaccine mandates don’t force anyone to get vaccinated. Some parents just don’t like their vaccine choices though.
Everyone should have died at the 1980 vaccination rates. This is a silly argument. Vaccine-preventable diseases don’t kill everyone who gets them. Many children did die of what are now vaccine-preventable diseases in the 1980s though.
Vaccines cause cancer. Not only do vaccines not cause cancer, several vaccines can prevent you from getting cancer.
The unvaccinated can’t spread diseases they don’t have. While that is true, if they are unvaccinated, they are at increased to get these diseases and they can then spread them.
Peanut oil adjuvants in vaccines have caused a peanut allergy epidemic. No vaccines contain peanut oil adjuvants.
If there is a RISK, there must be a CHOICE. Parents nearly always have a choice on whether or not to vaccinate their kids, even if they live in a state without non-medical exceptions. Folks who get exposed to unvaccinated kids who get a vaccinate preventable disease don’t have that same vaccine choice though.
No one has died of measles in the United States in 15 years. Except for the women who died in 2015. She was exposed to an outbreak in Clallam County, Washington, which included four unvaccinated children and adults.
Vaccine injury denialism is a big problem. Vaccine injury denialism isn’t the problem, it is that some folks think that everything is a vaccine injury, from eczema and peanut allergies to multiple sclerosis and every sudden unexplained death.
Shaken baby syndrome is a vaccine injury. Although the NVIC offers advice to parents who have been accused of shaken baby syndrome, it should be clear that vaccines do not cause shaken baby syndrome.
Most adults aren’t vaccinated, so there can’t be any herd immunity. If you understand herd immunity, then you understand why this anti-vaccine argument is so silly.
Doctors have been wrong before. But when they are, doctors kept working on these issues, came up with new ways to think about them, confirmed them using the scientific method, and put things right. This is unlike when anti-vax folks are wrong.
Vaccines are made with antifreeze. There is no antifreeze in any vaccine.
Measles and other diseases are spread by undocumented immigrants and refugees. Nope. It isn’t immigrants and refugees, but instead our own citizens who aren’t vaccinated and who travel out of the country, getting exposed, and bringing back vaccine-preventable diseases and sometimes starting big outbreaks.
We didn’t have any of these vaccines when we were kids and we ended up fine. This argument is called survivorship bias. Those who died of a vaccine-preventable disease aren’t around to post about vaccines on Facebook or Twitter.
The flu vaccine can give you the flu. The flu shot is inactivated, so can’t give you the flu. Even the live flu vaccine, FluMist, is attenuated and cold-adapted, so won’t give you the flu.
You can always vaccinate, but can never unvaccinate your kids. You can’t vaccinate your child if they have already gotten a vaccine preventable disease. It is sometimes too late.
Bill Gates wants to depopulate the world with vaccines. This is a silly conspiracy theory.
The vitamin K shot is dangerous. Vitamin K is not a vaccine, but it is only dangerous to skip it, as we have seen with the increase in brain bleeds in newborns and infants who’s parents listen to bad advice about vitamin K and vaccines.
Vaccines have never been studied on pregnant women. Except that the Vaccine Safety Datalink has published 14 studies “related to pregnancy and vaccination during pregnancy” and is “also able to use data to study the health of children born to women who were vaccinated during pregnancy.”
Encephalitis is autism. Crying after getting vaccines is not encephalitis and encephalitis is not autism, although some anti-vaccine folks try to make this jump in logic (?) to convince themselves that vaccines are associated with autism.
Vegans don’t vaccinate their kids. Many vegans vaccinate their kids.
If you drop a vaccine vial and it breaks, you have to call in a HAZMAT team to clean it up. This isn’t true.
Vaccines are not Halal or Kosher. As a general rule, neither Muslims nor Jews are against vaccines.
Vaccine Court has paid out almost $4 billion. Yes, almost $4 billion since 1988 (30 years), during which time over 286 million doses of vaccines were given each year.
Other countries don’t give as many vaccines as the US. Many countries have very similar immunization schedules as the United States. Some even give more dosages of vaccines at an earlier age than we do.
Parents can skip the hepatitis B shot because babies don’t use drugs or have sex. Since babies can get hepatitis B from their mothers, the most effective strategy to prevent these infections is to vaccinate all newborns. And keep in mind that some older children and adults have gotten infected without risk factors. Since the vaccine is safe and effective, there is no good reason to skip it.
Doctors don’t provide informed consent about vaccines. In addition to the fact that health care providers do indeed provide informed consent, anti-vaccine folks don’t, as they overstate the side effects and risks of vaccines, minimize the risks of vaccine-preventable diseases, and make you think that vaccines don’t work.
There are no such things as coincidences. There are. Correlation does not imply causation.
Glyphosate, including the glyphosate that they think is in vaccines, will make half of all children autistic by 2025. Only seven more years to go…
There are ZERO double blind vaccine studies based on an inert placebo. Except for the these..
Johnny Gruelle developed the Raggedy Ann doll after his daughter died of a smallpox vaccine injury. Johnny Gruelle’s daughter played with the Raggedy Ann and Raggedy Andy dolls he created. She tragically did die later of a probable reaction to a smallpox vaccine.
There are almost no studies that compare vaccinated versus unvaccinated kids. Except for the one that showed unvaccinated kids weren’t any healthier than vaccinated kids and that they just got more vaccine-preventable diseases.
In the time that the number of vaccines have grown from 2 to over 50 in the childhood schedule, that the rates of chronic illness has grown to over 50%. Kids today are actually a very healthy generation, being born with the lowest child and infant mortality rates ever, low rates of hospitalizations, and one of the highest life expectancies in history.
Anecdotes are evidence. While technically anecdotes are a type of evidence, they are among the weakest forms of evidence. That’s why most people don’t put a lot of faith in vaccine injury stories.
China is still having measles outbreaks, even though 99% of folks there are vaccinated. Nope. China is not having big measles outbreaks among highly vaccinated people.
Simpsonwood Simpsonwood? Really?
No one has ever died after getting a vaccine preventable disease from an unvaccinated child. Tragically, this has happened – more than once.
The CDC wants the FDA to approve adult doses of the flu vaccine for babies. Many infants already get the same dose of flu vaccine as adults, because it has been found to be safe and more effective and vaccines aren’t calibrated by weight or age.
Getting a flu vaccine increases your risk of spreading the flu. No, it doesn’t.
A recently leaked vaccine bombshell about Infanrix Hexa exposes infant deaths. The Latest Anti-Vaccine Bombshell on Infanrix Hexa is Just Another Dud
Vaccines are contaminated with retroviruses. Vaccines are not contaminated with infectious retroviruses.
More vaccinated kids get pertussis. The attack rate among unvaccinated kids with pertussis is much higher than vaccinated kids.
The risks are greater than the benefits for all vaccines. The risks aren’t greater than benefits for any vaccine that we routinely use.
Flu deaths are exaggerated. A lot of people, including kids, die with the flu.
Better hygiene and sanitation got rid of vaccine preventable diseases. Better hygiene and sanitation did actually help control and eliminate many infectious diseases, but it was vaccines that eliminated smallpox and helped to control polio, etc.
Vaccines aren’t regulated like drugs. Vaccines are even more strictly regulated than other drugs.
You have to sign a consent form before getting a vaccine. While you have to get informed consent, no one has to actually sign a consent form before getting vaccinated,
Trump is laying the groundwork to ban mandatory vaccinations. Vaccine mandates are set by state law, so no, he isn’t.
The meningococcal vaccine is more dangerous than meningococcal disease. Meningococcal vaccines are safe and meningococcal disease is horrible, so no.
There are new allegations of fraud in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings. No fraud, just anti-vaccine folks looking for attention.
Vaccines aren’t mentioned in the Bible. Yeah, so?
Japan has the lowest infant mortality rate following a ban on mandatory vaccinations. Japan never banned any vaccines and infant mortality rates aren’t correlated with vaccines.
They just guess which flu virus strains to put into the flu vaccine each year. Although they don’t have a crystal ball and so can’t know exactly which flu strains will be making us sick each flu season, it is hardly a wild guess.
Shedding season is a thing. No, it’s not.

[oldrider]

Yeah right. :mellow:

[TheDemonLord]

And YOUR personal choices and beliefs may affect MY personal safety on the roads. But do I tell you how you should ride ... ??? And if I did ... would you take heed ... ???

Well, you kinda do - There are laws and there is a body to enforce those laws. Am I allowed to pull sick wheelies or mean as skidz on the road? I have the ability to, but should I be seen doing it or should I cause an accident doing it - I will rightfully get prosecuted for it.


Fact of NZ legislation ... those responsible should be held responsible for their actions ... if necessary in a court of law. Would you have it any other way ... ???

Cool - so how many people have been prosecuted for choosing not to vaccinate their children, which has then resulted in an outbreak of Measles?


More people die in their sleep than those die wearing crash helmets. Your comparisons are absurd.

Absurdity admitted. I rest my case ... using absurdity to argue absurdity is ... well absurd.

I hope your decision making on the roads is better thought out than those you make in these forums ...

You do know what Parody is right? The whole point of that Absurd Comparison, was to show how Absurd the point being made in the video was.

To be clear - it was absurd by design - so I'm not sure what your objection here is?

[TheDemonLord]

It's predicated on scientific study.

Look it up.

If it's the study you posted last time - no, it's not.

It's predicated on a speculation, made by a group with some rather dubious pasts, with no experimental data done.

[TheDemonLord]

You mean they're motorcyclists too ... ???

All the ones I've met personally aren't - but then we do have Katman - so, who knows....


As long as they have a crash helmet and a leather jacket of some kind ... what could possibly go wrong ... ??

Well, given the progress of Society, I wouldn't be surprised if that soon becomes a reality....

But to be clear on the actual point - as Parents, just about everything we do with our Children has a risk of them dying associated with it. Going to the Beach, Going to a Swimming Pools, Driving in a Car, Going to Sleep etc. etc.

All of those, however, have a definitive positive effect - which is why we are happy to take the Risk and we also know that the risk of our child dying is exceptionally small.

Katman was maintaining that there's a Risk with Vaccines (which, to be fair, is true) and claiming because there is a risk, they shouldn't be used.

However, that argument omits several salient points:

1: There is a benefit to taking the risk of the Vaccine
2: There is NO benefit to taking the risk of contracting the Disease
3: The death rate from the Vaccine is rarer than 1 in 1,000,000 doses - and given the known risk of an Allergic reaction, there is an observation period that if a reaction occurs - immediate first aid can be administered. The death rate from Measles, however, is 1 in 10,000.

So taken that all into consideration - on the one hand you take a 1 in 10,000 risk of Death for your or someone elses child with no benefit or you take a 1 in 1,000,000 risk of Death and you protect your child from being a carrier and infecting others.

If we agree on nothing else - can you provide me a reason why a 1 in 10,000 risk with no benefit is the better option?

[FJRider]

All of those, however, have a definitive positive effect - which is why we are happy to take the Risk and we also know that the risk of our child dying is exceptionally small.

Known risks we dither about and discuss to death. Unknown risks we are happy to ignore. I would say that if all those that died accidentally met in the afterlife ... their common comment would be ... "I never expected that would happen" ...


Katman was maintaining that there's a Risk with Vaccines (which, to be fair, is true) and claiming because there is a risk, they shouldn't be used.

He's entitled to his opinion. Just as you are. Your continued argument wont change that. Get over yourself ...


If we agree on nothing else - can you provide me a reason why a 1 in 10,000 risk with no benefit is the better option?

Known risks we dither about and discuss to death. Unknown risks we are happy to ignore. I would say that if all those that died accidentally met in the afterlife ... their common comment would be ... "I never expected that would happen" ... and yes I know I've repeated myself. As have you. Again ... and again ... and again. Has anybody changed their opinion ... ???

[TheDemonLord]

He's entitled to his opinion. Just as you are. Your continued argument wont change that. Get over yourself ...

Sure - but in this case, his opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children.

Do you not think that such a burden on mere 'opinion' is worth a rebuttal?

You've agreed that those responsible for their actions should be held accountable by the Law - does that not provide an obligation then to refute, vigorously - at length and ad nauseum the spread of BS that has the above mentioned consequences?

Edit:

At the very least, someone who happened across this thread and was in the process of making up their mind would be presented with both sides to the argument - again, is that not worth a bit of repetition?

And finally - what is Repetition to you? You are certainly under no obligation to read or post in this thread - so why the objection?


Known risks we dither about and discuss to death. Unknown risks we are happy to ignore. I would say that if all those that died accidentally met in the afterlife ... their common comment would be ... "I never expected that would happen" ... and yes I know I've repeated myself. As have you. Again ... and again ... and again. Has anybody changed their opinion ... ???

So that would be a "No, there is no reason why it's a better option" then.

I'll re-state (since we are repeating ourselves) that if the decision and consequences to not vaccinate were limited solely to those people who opted out, then Fine - but unless you would support quarantining them away from society, then their decision has consequences for Me, My Own and the Wider NZ society.

[Berries]

At the very least, someone who happened across this thread and was in the process of making up their mind would be presented with both sides to the argument - again, is that not worth a bit of repetition?
Anyone who makes a decision about vaccination based on a thread on a motorcycle forum should have their children taken off them and be sterilised so it does not happen again.

[Katman]

If it's the study you posted last time - no, it's not.

It's predicated on a speculation, made by a group with some rather dubious pasts, with no experimental data done.

I'm not basing my statement on any particular study.

I'm saying that one of the uses of polysorbate 80 in pharmacology is to get certain medication past the blood brain barrier.

Don't just take my word for it though. Google 'polysorbate 80 blood brain barrier'.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm not basing my statement on any particular study.


It's predicated on scientific study.

Would you like to take a moment to get your story straight?

[Katman]

Would you like to take a moment to get your story straight?

Dude, google it.

There are scientific studies out there.

[Katman]

Would you like to take a moment to get your story straight?

Would it help you to understand what I meant if I said "I'm not basing my statement on any one particular study"?

My use of the words 'scientific study' are in the context of scientific study as a field.

And here was me thinking English was your first language.

My apologies.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm not basing my statement on any particular study.


It's predicated on scientific study.


Dude, google it.

There are scientific studies out there.


Would it help you to understand what I meant if I said "I'm not basing my statement on any one particular study"?

My use of the words 'scientific study' are in the context of scientific study as a field.

And here was me thinking English was your first language.

My apologies.

Well, that is some epic Backpedaling and reversals.

Is it Scientific Study the field or is it Scientific Studies as in published papers? You seem quite confused. Perhaps if you knew what you were on about, you'd be able to articulate it in a clear Manner?

[Katman]

Well, that is some epic Backpedaling and reversals.

Is it Scientific Study the field or is it Scientific Studies as in published papers? You seem quite confused. Perhaps if you knew what you were on about, you'd be able to articulate it in a clear Manner?

There's certainly no 'epic backpedaling or reversals' there. I'm merely explaining what I meant to someone who seems to struggle with English comprehension.

Are you upset because I didn't use as many capital letters as you would have?

[matt.of.the.ingh]

I don't want to put words in the demon lord mouth, but I think we are all upset that you refuse to accept the masses of evidence we've sent you, whilst relying on discredited informant from unreliable sources.

Personally, I realise that you actually couldn't care less. This is just you being a dick.

To answer FJRiders point about being entitled to opinions... Yeah, we are entitled to think what we like. But not to perform acts which harm others. Children can't make informed decisions. Their parents already have a legal duty of care to protect them. This is a part of that duty of care. Not vaccinating your children will cause them unnecessary pain, suffering and possibly death.
(Allergic reactions are literally a million to one chance, so don't even bother with that ridiculous argument Katman.)
Not only do you cause harm to your own kids, but by weakening herd immunity and allowing the disease opportunity to reproduce you cause harm to everyone else.
This isn't a matter of opinion, these are simple to understand, well documented facts. How is getting your kids vaccinated different from anything else you have to do to protect your kids?

How long would you last if you claimed that some fella on the internet said that under fives don't need food, or that making teen-agers wash will weaken their immune systems? There are laws in place to protect children from stupid parents, this should be another of those rules. Not because it's a nanny state, but because idiots also have babies.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Katman]

...but I think we are all upset...

You should post up a photo of yourself crying so we can all see just how upset you are.

[Katman]

.....but because idiots also have babies.

And there's a few here who have proven that statement to be absolutely true.

[TheDemonLord]

There's certainly no 'epic backpedaling or reversals' there. I'm merely explaining what I meant to someone who seems to struggle with English comprehension.

Are you upset because I didn't use as many capital letters as you would have?

Or, you're diverting from the fact that you were caught contradicting yourself and are furiously scrabbling to retain some semblance of Composure.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't want to put words in the demon lord mouth, but I think we are all upset

This is not my first argument with Katman, nor will it likely be the last - Upset - not really, although of all the Conspiracies that Katman subscribes to, I hold a particular Venom for Anti-Vaxxers that I don't hold for any other viewpoint.

Mainly these days I simply come here to Argue...

[Katman]

Or, you're diverting from the fact that you were caught contradicting yourself and are furiously scrabbling to retain some semblance of Composure.

Like I've said, you seem to struggle with basic English comprehension.

Anyhow, have you learned anything about polysorbate 80 yet?

[Katman]

Mainly these days I simply come here to Argue...

Very poorly.

[TheDemonLord]

Like I've said, you seem to struggle with basic English comprehension.

So - was it Scientific Study or was it Scientific Studies? Since you are so learned at English - you should be able to use them in their correct usage and not flippantly use them interchangeably...


Anyhow, have you learned anything about polysorbate 80 yet?

Depends:

Have you learned that 130 over 15 years is much smaller than 88 in one year?
Have you also learned that the only first world country that stopped using the MMR vaccine for a significant time period also happens to have the highest (or second highest - depending on which assessment criteria is used) rate of Autism in the world?

[Katman]

So - was it Scientific Study or was it Scientific Studies? Since you are so learned at English - you should be able to use them in their correct usage and not flippantly use them interchangeably...

I used them exactly as I intended to use them.

The post where I said "it's predicated on scientific study" means exactly that - predicated on (the field of) scientific study. (Note the singular use of the word study - without the word 'a' before the word scientific).

The post were I said there are scientific studies out there means exactly that - there are scientific studies out there that show polysorbate 80 is used to pass certain medications through the blood brain barrier.

Clear now?

[FJRider]

Sure - but in this case, his opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children.

Do you not think that such a burden on mere 'opinion' is worth a rebuttal?

You've agreed that those responsible for their actions should be held accountable by the Law - does that not provide an obligation then to refute, vigorously - at length and ad nauseum the spread of BS that has the above mentioned consequences?

Edit:

At the very least, someone who happened across this thread and was in the process of making up their mind would be presented with both sides to the argument - again, is that not worth a bit of repetition?

And finally - what is Repetition to you? You are certainly under no obligation to read or post in this thread - so why the objection?



So that would be a "No, there is no reason why it's a better option" then.

I'll re-state (since we are repeating ourselves) that if the decision and consequences to not vaccinate were limited solely to those people who opted out, then Fine - but unless you would support quarantining them away from society, then their decision has consequences for Me, My Own and the Wider NZ society.


(1) How many deaths were the "result of his opinion" .. ??

(2) in my opinion ... your opinion is worth shit. But that is just my opinion. And I doubt if I'm alone in that opinion. But you are entitled to hold and air an opinion in this thread ... no reason why I can't either ...

(3) If there is a violation or breach of (a)Law or legislation or (b) Human Rights or (c) caused offence to another person ... the person responsible can be held accountable if proven in a court of law.

(4) Argument .. and Valid argument are two separate things. Your continuing to argue would almost be a breach of peace issue. YOUR initials could be (in my opinion) B.S.

(5) There are two sides to an argument ... your's and everybody else's. Any member reading this thread is entitled to add and/or hold their own thoughts and opinions. Are you that far up yourself ... that you believe your opinions in this thread will change another members point of view ... ???

(6) In repetition ... I am entitled to hold and view my opinions in this thread just as you do. Is that an issue for you ... ???

(7) What is it you think I'm actually objecting too ... ???

(8) What one person (compared to another) considers a "Better Option" is usually personal choice and in most cases ... with differing circumstances / situations /and opinions of their merit.

(9) If the choice of vaccination is optional they are within the law not to if they choose. If there is no choice in law ... there will be a risk of prosecution. Just as there is a risk of prosecution for exceeding posted speed limits. Ask yourself ... which of these two examples of risk have a greater risk of death .. ???

(10)
Me, My Own and the Wider NZ society. ... pretty much your priorities all said and done. And in that order.

[TheDemonLord]

(1) How many deaths were the "result of his opinion" .. ??

Of Katman specifically or of the wider Anti-Vax movement? By sharing the opinion of the wider movement and promulgating it, he becomes complicit in it's effects.

To answer that question directly - Thousands, possibly Tens of Thousands, almost all Children.


(3) If there is a violation or breach of (a)Law or legislation or (b) Human Rights or (c) caused offence to another person ... the person responsible can be held accountable if proven in a court of law.

Right. If you do something Stupid (like drive illegally) and Injure or Kill me, you are held to account?
If you do something Stupid (like choose not to get vaccinated for a preventable disease) and Injure or Kill me, should you be held to account?

If not, why not? What is the difference between the 2 - from your opinion?


(5) There are two sides to an argument ... your's and everybody else's. Any member reading this thread is entitled to add and/or hold their own thoughts and opinions. Are you that far up yourself ... that you believe your opinions in this thread will change another members point of view ... ???

I know Katman won't change his Mind, but I enjoy the Argument and in this case I put to you that there are a number of Objective facts that show Katmans opinion to be not only incorrect, but objectively dangerous. And on this particular issue, I refuse to let what he posts go unchallenged because of the real world threat posed by the Anti-Vax movement.


(6) In repetition ... I am entitled to hold and view my opinions in this thread just as you do. Is that an issue for you ... ???

Have I ever called for any censorship on anybodies views? You post here, of your own free will, to complain about others engaging in an argument - if the fact of the argument bothers you, then why come here?

To be clear - I'm not calling for you to be silent or to not engage - I'm questioning the reason for doing so.

If you choose to engage, I'll add my opinion and comment to what you've posted if the fancy takes me. But this line of posting has always perplexed me - there are plenty of threads, filled with arguments that I neither care for, nor engage in - do you see me wandering into those threads to rebuke people from engaging in the discussion?


(7) What is it you think I'm actually objecting too ... ???

I'm tempted to say the fact of me Posting, but I feel that would be a little too presumptuous and egotistical on my part...

I'd hazard a guess it's to the repetitive and cyclical nature of the argument - yet if that was the case - should you not show equal Ire and Contempt for Katman too?


(8) What one person (compared to another) considers a "Better Option" is usually personal choice and in most cases ... with differing circumstances / situations /and opinions of their merit.

The key word in that sentence is 'Usually' - we, as a society, wouldn't let a parent use Bleach on a Childs skin, because they 'thought it was a better option'. Which means (unless you wish to argue against that example) that there is an Objective limit to the freedoms of Personal Choice. Typically predicated on the notion that you can do whatever you like, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

It's that last part that is the crux of the Vaccination debate - by choosing not to get vaccinated for preventable diseases, you risk harming someone else. Do you have that right? This brings back to the point above in regards to prosecution.


(9) If the choice of vaccination is optional they are within the law not to if they choose. If there is no choice in law ... there will be a risk of prosecution. Just as there is a risk of prosecution for exceeding posted speed limits. Ask yourself ... which of these two examples of risk have a greater risk of death .. ???

That's a complex question and it depends on which Parameters you want to set - are you assuming a typical NZ population where this is ~90% vaccination rate? Are you including simply exceeding the posted speed limit or are you including the causal factors associated with it (dangerous overtaking, loosing control on Corners, too fast for the conditions) - the things that actually cause the crash?

You can't properly assess the risk of not vaccinating an individual, whilst simultaneously taking advantage of the protection of a vaccinated population. The data we have where there are countries that have a low Vaccination rate (below 70%) is that thousands of Children die to Measles, many more suffer serious permanent effects (such as Brain damage from Encephalitis).

I put it to you that in terms of Risk, they are probably about equal - but in terms of benefit - there is a Benefit to driving faster, what benefit is there to catching Measles?

[Katman]

Right. If you do something Stupid (like drive illegally) and Injure or Kill me, you are held to account?
If you do something Stupid (like choose not to get vaccinated for a preventable disease) and Injure or Kill me, should you be held to account?

If not, why not? What is the difference between the 2 - from your opinion?

Dude, you really are the King of shit analogies.

Not vaccinating your child isn't illegal. (Well not yet, at least).

[Katman]

It's that last part that is the crux of the Vaccination debate - by choosing not to get vaccinated for preventable diseases, you risk harming someone else. Do you have that right?

We risk harming someone else every time we operate a vehicle on a public road.

[FJRider]

Of Katman specifically or of the wider Anti-Vax movement?

You specifically stated "his [Katmans] opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children" ... so yes, Katman specifically.



If you do something Stupid (like choose not to get vaccinated for a preventable disease) and Injure or Kill me, should you be held to account?

Prove any wrong doing in a court of law.

Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated.


There are a number of Objective facts that show Katmans opinion to be not only incorrect, but objectively dangerous.

They are still HIS opinion. Opinions he is legally entitled to hold. Regardless of the fact that you do not agree with therm.


Have I ever called for any censorship on anybodies views?

There should be ... on you. Scaremongering and slander is frowned on ...

You accused him of the deaths of thousands of children because of his stated opinion.



If you choose to engage, I'll add my opinion and comment ...

I expect no less ... but try being a little less dramatic with your accusations ... and adding some facts rather than just your opinions might help too ...


I'm tempted to say the fact of me Posting, but I feel that would be a little too presumptuous and egotistical on my part ...

Go on ... be a devil ... and It's never stopped you in the past ...


should you not show equal Ire and Contempt for Katman too?

Does he accuse you of killing thousands of children ... ???


Typically predicated on the notion that you can do whatever you like, so long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Public harassment of another is an offence. Public nuisance is also an offence. Harm [as in physical harm] is not the single thing that notion is based on.


That's a complex question ...

Not really ... and ACC would argue it's quite simple. Hence a large ACC levy to re-license your motorcycle. Does any such sized levy apply to vaccinations ... ??


The data we have ...

You mean stated statistics with no confirmation of any knowledge or confirmation of any other conflicting conditions that may have affected the numbers stated.


there is a Benefit to driving faster, what benefit is there to catching Measles?

There is immediate risk with travelling faster. Whatever you ride or drive but especially so on a Motorcycle. (ACC says so ...) Measles not so much.

[matt.of.the.ingh]

You specifically stated "his [Katmans] opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children" ... so yes, Katman specifically.




Prove any wrong doing in a court of law.

Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated.



They are still HIS opinion. Opinions he is legally entitled to hold. Regardless of the fact that you do not agree with therm.



There should be ... on you. Scaremongering and slander is frowned on ...

You accused him of the deaths of thousands of children because of his stated opinion.




I expect no less ... but try being a little less dramatic with your accusations ... and adding some facts rather than just your opinions might help too ...



Go on ... be a devil ... and It's never stopped you in the past ...



Does he accuse you of killing thousands of children ... ???



Public harassment of another is an offence. Public nuisance is also an offence. Harm [as in physical harm] is not the single thing that notion is based on.



Not really ... and ACC would argue it's quite simple. Hence a large ACC levy to re-license your motorcycle. Does any such sized levy apply to vaccinations ... ??



You mean stated statistics with no confirmation of any knowledge or confirmation of any other conflicting conditions that may have affected the numbers stated.



There is immediate risk with travelling faster. Whatever you ride or drive but especially so on a Motorcycle. (ACC says so ...) Measles not so much.

I assume the problem here is that you haven't actually read all the evidence rider. There is plenty on here.

It does sound like hyperbole to say that not vaccinating your children kills millions ( I think you only said thousands) but the only reasons these diseases exist is because we haven't eradicated them yet. That relies on everyone vaccinating their kids.

I know that Katman vaccinating his future children won't help developing countries vaccinate their entire population, but it is a simple fact that this is the only way to prevent these diseases.

'Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated'
The most sensible thing anyone has said on this thread.

Harm? Demon and Katman aren't being harmed one way or the other. At all.
They are both fully enjoying their human rights. But the antivax movement is a real thing.
Parents are deciding that they will let their children catch preventable diseases, and that is harm. For the kids themselves and the prople who rely on herd immunity. For all his claims, Katman hasn't shared anything that refutes herd immunity.
There is harm being done. It's being done by well intentioned people who believe this antivax stuff.

In one of his recent posts Katman tried to mock me for saying that I was upset. It does upset me. I understand that be parents are really susceptible to people telling them that stuff will hurt their baby. Even if they don't really believe it, it's still a worry when your vulnerable.
That's why this antivax stuff needs to be challenged. It is important that the truth is defended.

It's not hyperbole, it's just that you've never realised how much of the antivax argument is complete nonsense.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

You specifically stated "his [Katmans] opinion has resulted in the preventable Deaths of Children" ... so yes, Katman specifically.

By taking part in the continuation of this idea, Yes, I do judge him thus.

If you think I'm being overly dramatic - fine, but remember - when NZ, the UK, the US etc. had Vaccination rates above 95%, there were no deaths from Measles and virtually no cases that ended up in permanent medical issues. Since the Anti-vaxx movement started and rates have fallen - all those countries have experienced their first death(s) due to Measles in over 10 years.

I am deadly serious when I say that promoting this repeatedly disproved and debunked idea has a direct causal link to some parents choosing not to vaccinate which has a direct causal link to people dying from a preventable disease.


Prove any wrong doing in a court of law.

Prevention is better than a cure ... so wear a condom and get vaccinated.

If a parent fails to ensure a child is securely strapped in a Vehicle - they get penalised, by a Court of Law.
Putting the letter of the law to one side for a moment - how is that different to not getting Vaccinated?


They are still HIS opinion. Opinions he is legally entitled to hold. Regardless of the fact that you do not agree with therm.

If his opinion was that he could jump off a cliff and fly - would you try and do anything about it? What about if his opinion was he could drive a car through a school yard at breaktime and not kill anyone - would you try and do anything about it?

This particular opinion has demonstrable, real world consequences. That is something I happened to be concerned with.


There should be ... on you. Scaremongering and slander is frowned on ...

You accused him of the deaths of thousands of children because of his stated opinion.

Yes. As I accuse all Anti-vaxxers so. Based on the evidence between the vaccination rates and lack of deaths from the 1990s to early 2000s and the re-occurence of the first fatal cases of Measels and the drop in Vaccination rates subsequently. It's not Slander or Scaremongering if it's true. And if you really believe I've broken the law - I'd be happy to state the above opinion in front of any judge, in any court in the Land, at anytime.


I expect no less ... but try being a little less dramatic with your accusations ... and adding some facts rather than just your opinions might help too ...

Okay. If you want the facts - I've posted them previously in this thread. The main ones are:

1: Every 'scientific study' that Katman has ever cited on the matter has either been retracted, debunked or been the work of pure speculation with ZERO experimental data.
2: If the claim of the MMR vaccine can cause Autism is true, then it stands to reason that if a country was to stop using the MMR, then the Autism rate would fall - Japan has one of the highest or the highest (depending on which metric is used) incidences of Autism in the world, Japan also stopped using the MMR vaccine in 1993.
3: The fatality rate from the MMR Vaccine is lower than 1 in 1,000,000 (and procedures are in place to reduce that even further) - the fatality rate for Measles is 1 in 10,000 cases, with permanent medical complications occurring in around 1 in 1,000 cases
4: Measles is the leading, preventable fatal disease globally
5: Measles was declared eradicated in the Americas and in Europe, until the late 2010s, with most individuals who contract the disease are *drum roll* Unvaccinated!

Is that Dramatic enough for you?


Does he accuse you of killing thousands of children ... ???

Regularly (By Proxy), whenever we discuss the Iraq, Afghanistan or other wars or other aspects of international US foreign Policy.


Public harassment of another is an offence. Public nuisance is also an offence. Harm [as in physical harm] is not the single thing that notion is based on.

Did I say Physical Harm? I don't think I did... Nuisance and Harassment are predicated on both the concept of causing Harm to others (in this case emotional harm) and on the concept that one should be free to go about their lawful business.


Not really ... and ACC would argue it's quite simple. Hence a large ACC levy to re-license your motorcycle. Does any such sized levy apply to vaccinations ... ??

What an interesting Idea... Charging those who opt not to get Vaccinated an ACC levy for engaging in risky behaviour - Love your style FJRider.


You mean stated statistics with no confirmation of any knowledge or confirmation of any other conflicting conditions that may have affected the numbers stated.

Well, consider this - the US road department put the yearly risk of dying from a car accident (all car accidents, not just where speed was the cause) at ~1 in 100,000 - at the height of the Japanese measles outbreak there were 200,000 cases in a year, for a population of 126.8 Million - that's a 1 in 700 chance of contracting Measles, in a year, given the death rate - it's about 1 in 160,000 (at the population level) - so not too far off, however - you've got to factor in that even with the drop in vaccination rate, the country as a whole still had around an 80% vaccination rate. If you remove that per-existing resilience, then it's not a far-fetched speculation to say that the risk of dying of Measles (without the protection granted by a highly vaccinated populace) IS greater than the risk of dying in a Car Crash.

I'll grant you those are rough figures with some very quick extrapolations - but the point I'm making is that Measles is highly contagious and quite dangerous - it's not like getting the Sniffles.


There is immediate risk with travelling faster. Whatever you ride or drive but especially so on a Motorcycle. (ACC says so ...) Measles not so much.

That all depends on how you define immediate - sure a Car crash itself happens in a matter of Seconds - but there is normally a bit of a drive associated with the crash - Measles can and does kill within a few hours - which, as far as diseases go, is pretty immediate.

"In an hour she was unconscious, in 12, she was dead"

[matt.of.the.ingh]

Ps, how do you do the thing with loads of quotes in one message?
I know it's of topic, but it would be really helpful for me....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, you really are the King of shit analogies.

Not vaccinating your child isn't illegal. (Well not yet, at least).

I see you missed the point (again).

It wasn't an analogy, it was a comparison.

[TheDemonLord]

Ps, how do you do the thing with loads of quotes in one message?
I know it's of topic, but it would be really helpful for me....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

When you quote someone - the message is enclosed in the open quote tag: [QUOTE=matt.of.the.ingh;1131122415]


and the close quote tag [ /quote] (remove the space)

Just copy the open quote tag and paste it in front of whatever section of the reply you think is relevant, and then end with the close quote tag:

[TheDemonLord]

We risk harming someone else every time we operate a vehicle on a public road.

We've established that, do try and keep up.

However the difference is that with a Vehicle, there is a benefit to taking that Risk, there is no benefit for taking the risk of Measles (despite your laughable claim of 'natural immunity')