Thinking of getting vaccinated? [Archive] - Page 19

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 09:22

There were 200,000 cases of measles with 88 deaths.

As I've already pointed out that's 0.044% died of those who contracted it.

We're not talking about the Black Plague here.

Except you omit that the population of Japan had about 80% vaccination rate thanks to prior generations being vaccinated. You were saying something about Integrity.

Dude, google 'analogy meaning' and see what it tells you.

Your English comprehension is appalling.

Sigh. Is this what you've devolved to?

Yes, an Analogy makes a Comparison - but you'll notice that the words are different, that's because they have different meanings. The key difference is an Analogy typically involves a substitution to prove a point: X is different to Y, but X shares similarities to Y (This is the Comparison), Therefore X instead of Y, therefore point.

What I did is to show X shares Similarities to Y and then ask why they should be treated differently. If I'd then gone on to substitute it in and make an Analogy - you'd be right. But I didn't. An analogy is like when I used the Helmet crash data to show how ridiculous the 129 deaths video was. That's why it's a Comparison and not an Analogy.

So yes, your English comprehension IS appalling.

Dude, stop trying to win an argument by making shit up. If you're going to argue your point, at least try to do it with some degree of integrity.

Oh, the Irony. You see above where you make an argument about how deadly Measles isn't, whilst deliberately omitting the reason the death is as low as it was, was due to pre-existing protection in the form of the previous generation being Vaccinated.

Your entire argument hinges on the low death rate, which has a direct causal link to the thing you are arguing against. You cannot have it both ways. You were saying something about Degrees of Integrity?

I have never said people should not get vaccinated, nor have I ever said people should not vaccinate their children.

Okay, let me add some nuance in there: You believe that there is sufficient evidence that any reasonable person, with a healthy child (so no pre-existing auto-immune conditions or any verified medical conditions where a vaccination wouldn't be appropriate) could review the evidence and make the determination to opt not to vaccinate their child.

That is predicated on the idea that you believe that there is sufficient Risk with a Vaccine, that it is reasonable to opt out. Combine that with the discussion in the other thread where you proved you cannot abide by any action that results in any form of loss of life (even when it's demonstrably clear that it would reduce the sum total of Human suffering) I expressed the combination of those two viewpoints as "because there is a risk, they shouldn't be used."

In fact, I have repeatedly said that I would never stand in the way of a person wanting have their children vaccinated.

By spreading this idea, you are standing (by proxy) in the way of people wanting to vaccinate their child. You may not be doing it with force of Arms, but Ideas can be just as Deadly (see the re-occurence of fatal instances of Measles outbreaks in the Western world, amongst un-vaccinated groups for proof).

What I do most strongly believe is that people should be educated on both sides of the issue rather than simply relying on the message that if you don't vaccinate it will spell the end of civilisation.

Okay, here's the 'other side' of the argument: There is a risk with a Vaccine, that your child may have a previously unknown allergic reaction. There is a procedure in place to deal with that. but there is still a risk. It's a risk considerably less than dying in a Car Crash in your lifetime (by a factor of about 25 times less likely), Considerably less than Drowning (by a factor about 10-20 times less likely), Considerably less than a Peanut allergy (by a factor of about 20,000 times less likely). In fact, you have a far higher chance of winning Division 1 Lotto, with a $7 ticket than you are to have an issue with a Vaccine (by about a factor of 3.5).

End.
Of.

No Autism. No Developmental disorders. No Aluminium adjuvants crossing the blood-brain barrier causing 'something'.

As for the end of Civilisation - let me be clear. A drop of just 5% in the Vaccination rates in a population has resulted in a multiple countries going from Zero deaths (over the course of over a decade), to multiple deaths. A drop of about 10-15% lead to multiple outbreaks, with over a thousand total Deaths (or at the very least - confirmed 88 in one year) and many many more suffering from permanent medical complications (Brain Damage, blindness, Deafness etc.).

For a Single example of the difference between Vaccination and non-vaccination - the Single biggest killer in the 20th Century, More than all the Dead in both world Wars AND all the dead killed by oppressive regimes COMBINED - was Small Pox.

Given the move towards increased travel, increased proximity, increased intermingling of populations then it is clear: Not Vaccinating will result in many needless Deaths, which - putting aside the Human Tragedy aspect (which is ironic that you don't give a shit about, all your previous utterances considered - you were saying something about Integrity I believe?) has a snowball effect on already stretched hospital resources, lost productivity etc.

And for what? Some 'Utopia' where Katman can revel in the downfall of those Evil Big Pharma corporates who are no longer making Billions, all whilst surrounded by the corpses of Children?

And mandatory vaccination can get fucked.

You're happy with Mandatory Helmet usage, you're happy with Mandatory Seatbelt usage - but Mandatory Vaccinations can get Fucked...

Right. Good job you'll never have kids then.

Really?

How about you go back through the thread and list all the studies that I've cited and show how they have "been retracted, debunked or been the work of pure speculation with ZERO experimental data" then.

You've cited Mr Wakefield, the Greers, Christopher Shaw and Lucija Tomljenovic, Christopher Exely - that's from my Memory.

Katman

18th January 2019, 09:42

Okay, let me add some nuance in there: You believe that there is sufficient evidence that any reasonable person, with a healthy child (so no pre-existing auto-immune conditions or any verified medical conditions where a vaccination wouldn't be appropriate) could review the evidence and make the determination to opt not to vaccinate their child.

That is predicated on the idea that you believe that there is sufficient Risk with a Vaccine, that it is reasonable to opt out. Combine that with the discussion in the other thread where you proved you cannot abide by any action that results in any form of loss of life (even when it's demonstrably clear that it would reduce the sum total of Human suffering) I expressed the combination of those two viewpoints as "because there is a risk, they shouldn't be used."

By spreading this idea, you are standing (by proxy) in the way of people wanting to vaccinate their child. You may not be doing it with force of Arms, but Ideas can be just as Deadly (see the re-occurence of fatal instances of Measles outbreaks in the Western world, amongst un-vaccinated groups for proof).

And as I've pointed out a number of times, it's your autism that gives you such a distorted view of what you think people are saying.

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 09:50

And as I've pointed out a number of times, it's your autism that gives you such a distorted view of what you think people are saying.

And with the Ad Hominem - I've got the right to declare victory.

Katman

18th January 2019, 10:11

And with the Ad Hominem - I've got the right to declare victory.

It's not an Ad Hominem.

You were the one who stated you are on the Autism Spectrum.

I'm just pointing out how it's that fact that is distorting your view of what I'm saying.

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 10:30

It's not an Ad Hominem.

You were the one who stated you are on the Autism Spectrum.

I'm just pointing out how it's that fact that is distorting your view of what I'm saying.

No. I've never stated that. Try again.

You're starting to believe that your own farts smell like Roses.

Doubly hilarious since you got on your 'Integrity' high horse and accusing me of 'Interpretation'...

Katman

18th January 2019, 10:37

No. I've never stated that. Try again.

Ah, yes you have.

And deep down, that's why this whole issue is so personal to you.

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 11:04

Ah, yes you have.

And deep down, that's why this whole issue is so personal to you.

No. I have not.

I do, however, know what I have said and in what it's related to.

Which brings us to an interesting observation: You are at best mistaken. Considering, however, I've told you explicitly you are incorrect about this - and I know what I have and more importantly what I don't have - this cannot be true.

Therefore, you're flat-out lying to prove your point - which if we quote your own words back to you:

Dude, stop trying to win an argument by making shit up. If you're going to argue your point, at least try to do it with some degree of integrity.

FJRider

18th January 2019, 16:51

By taking part in the continuation of this idea, Yes, I do judge him thus.

So ... him agreeing in principal to this opinion ... is in your proof of his liability in the deaths of children that he had no control of ... or input into the decisions made at that time.

Sounds fair ... (NOT)

If a parent fails to ensure a child is securely strapped in a Vehicle - they get penalised, by a Court of Law.
Putting the letter of the law to one side for a moment - how is that different to not getting Vaccinated?

Putting children into the child safety seat is required by law in most civilized countries of the world. Vaccinations ... not so. The difference is a matter of conscience ... not LAW.

If his opinion was that he could jump off a cliff and fly - would you try and do anything about it?

He is entitled to his opinion. In my opinion ... the law of gravity will overrule his opinion. And the planet Earth will continue to rotate. And life as we know it will go on ...

This particular opinion has demonstrable, real world consequences. That is something I happened to be concerned with.

In your opinion ... and well done you for speaking your mind ... if you have half a mind to do so. I guess half a mind is all YOU need ... to form an opinion.

It's not Slander or Scaremongering if it's true.

If not required by law ... totally optional. Personal choice. You don't like being told to do things you don't want to ... even if you are required by law to do so. Why argue when the matter is optional .. ??

Okay. If you want the facts - I've posted them previously in this thread. The main ones are:

It's optional. A simple and the only relevant fact.

Is that Dramatic enough for you?

To save the world .. you'll need to work harder to convince anybody. Good luck with that ...

Regularly (By Proxy), whenever we discuss the Iraq, Afghanistan or other wars or other aspects of international US foreign Policy.

In such circumstances death is expected. Even budgeted for by the respective governments. And by no means illegal.

Did I say Physical Harm? I don't think I did... Nuisance and Harassment are predicated on both the concept of causing Harm to others (in this case emotional harm) and on the concept that one should be free to go about their lawful business.

If you have proof that Katman caused harm in any way to others ... you are duty bound by law to report it to Police ... have you done so yet. If not ... WHY NOT ...

What an interesting Idea... Charging those who opt not to get Vaccinated an ACC levy for engaging in risky behaviour - Love your style FJRider.

If I don't please ... I amuse. Annoyance is optional.

Well, consider this

Not NZ stat's ... don't care about other countries. I probably wont go there ... so irrelevant.

I'll grant you those are rough figures with some very quick extrapolations

You will never make a point with rough figures ... if you can't be bothered don't bother.

That all depends on how you define immediate

When was the last immediate death from measles in NZ ... ??

Katman

18th January 2019, 17:40

No. I have not.

Oh well, I know I read it and I'm sure others read it too.

So be aware that your denial might come back to bite you in the arse one day.

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 18:55

Oh well, I know I read it and I'm sure others read it too.

So be aware that your denial might come back to bite you in the arse one day.

Then post up the Quotation if you are so sure you are right. It'd make a change for you.

What you remember, is that I've acknowledged I have A condition (that, FYI, is not on the ASD spectrum at all) and some of the symptoms of said condition are similar to symptoms of Autism.

If your English Comprehension is so bad that you can't tell the difference, then I'm sorry for you.

The only person who thinks I have Autism, is you - and as the above admittal - you've started to believe in your own Lies.

Katman

18th January 2019, 19:07

Then post up the Quotation if you are so sure you are right. It'd make a change for you.

Believe me, I looked - but the search function on this site is fucked.

Go on, try it. In the advanced search page I used 'autism' as the key word and your user name as the poster.

It comes back as 'no matches found'. And yet, we both know there are many times you've used the word 'autism'.

But hey, I'm sure someone will stumble upon it one day.

Your denial of it comes across as nothing other than embarrassment.

Graystone

18th January 2019, 19:21

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 19:43

Believe me, I looked - but the search function on this site is fucked.

Go on, try it. In the advanced search page I used 'autism' as the key word and your user name as the poster.

It comes back as 'no matches found'. And yet, we both know there are many times you've used the word 'autism'.

But hey, I'm sure someone will stumble upon it one day.

Your denial of it comes across as nothing other than embarrassment.

What's that? Caught making shit up again? Colour me surprised.

I'll simply repeat that I've admitted to having character traits that can be symptoms of Autism, but they are, in fact, symptoms of another condition, that is NOT on the Autism spectrum, that I most certainly DO have.

Search works fine, did you make the words and click the thingo? Funnily enough, he has three pages of posts to your five for that keyword.

If there is one thing we cant count on from ToDoLists, it's to never say anything he can't self delude his way out of, just the same as you do; so I have no doubt that any admissions of his autism will be dismissed as nothing of the sort...

I'll be charitable and put the above down to skim reading and apathy, but to be clear - I DO have a condition, it's not Autism, not even on the Autism spectrum, but it does share some of the symptoms with Autism - that's all I've ever admitted to.

Graystone

18th January 2019, 20:14

I'll be charitable and put the above down to skim reading and apathy

Your self delusions have repeatedly shown that is all you are worthy of.

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 20:20

So ... him agreeing in principal to this opinion ... is in your proof of his liability in the deaths of children that he had no control of ... or input into the decisions made at that time.

Sounds fair ... (NOT)

Promoting demonstrably false information that results in Death. He does have control as to whether he actively promotes these Ideas. One can have an opinion and keep it entirely to oneself, but as evidence by the MULTIPLE thread necros by Katman, this is not the case.

Is it Fair? Well, That's an interesting concept - because whether or not it's fair depends on the degree of Complicity with the action. You might reason Katman's responses away as being Small and insignificant - so too is the lowly Ant, but an Army of them can wreak havoc. Same too with the Nuremberg defence - that guilt could not be applied due to the individual only having a small part in something larger.

Putting children into the child safety seat is required by law in most civilized countries of the world. Vaccinations ... not so. The difference is a matter of conscience ... not LAW.

Right - Both are to guard someone vulnerable against potential Harm. One is mandated, one is not - you say the difference is a matter of Conscience: For you, what is the underlying philosophical difference (as you see it) that requires different courses of action?

He is entitled to his opinion. In my opinion ... the law of gravity will overrule his opinion. And the planet Earth will continue to rotate. And life as we know it will go on ...

Right - now what if his action to jump, doesn't actually effect him, but instead could cause someone else, most likely a child, serious injury or Death - would you still let him do it?

If not required by law ... totally optional. Personal choice. You don't like being told to do things you don't want to ... even if you are required by law to do so. Why argue when the matter is optional .. ??

Sounds an awful lot like an Appeal to Legislation: "It's not against the law, therefore it must be okay" - was Slavery bad? There are many things that the Law says I have to do that I don't particularly like - Paying Taxes (for example) - yet, I acknowledge that these things are the cost of entry, to gain all the benefits of Society. So from that we accept certain limitations on individual freedom, in order to have a functional society. The Question is - is this one of those Areas where a limitation should be applied.

If you want my full honest opinion - I would prefer that everyone would dismiss the Anti-Vaxx BS for exactly what it is, bad science done by people wishing to profiteer (which is ironic given the claims against Big Pharma) off of ailments. And that the Question of whether we should mandate it would be unnecessary as people would be able to voluntarily make the correct choice.

But seeing as that's not the case - like many things in life, when enough people fail to make the correct choice and end up Harming others, the government has to step in.

It's optional. A simple and the only relevant fact.

Right - so you ask for Facts, then proceed to summarily dismiss them...

To save the world .. you'll need to work harder to convince anybody. Good luck with that ...

To be honest, I think the only way to convince Anti-Vaxxers is to have them hold their own child in their arms, whilst the Child is dying from a preventable disease, the sad thing is - there are some that I don't think would even be convinced by that.

In such circumstances death is expected. Even budgeted for by the respective governments. And by no means illegal.

Glad you agree, so if the above is true - it stands to reason that in some circumstances, a small amount of unavoidable death in the pursuit of greater outcome IS acceptable.

If you have proof that Katman caused harm in any way to others ... you are duty bound by law to report it to Police ... have you done so yet. If not ... WHY NOT ...

Because reporting it to the Police isn't what is needed - what would be needed would be a Test Case in the High Courts to see if Legal Precedent could be set - that would require many thousands of Man hours and hundreds of Thousands of Dollars I simply do not have. In regards to Oldie's post from Australia, where Medical Professionals can be sanctioned, that could form part of a legal precedent for such an Action, you could also look to the US case Law - where 7/9 test cases in the last 120 years have sided that not Vaccinating is the same as withholding treatment - which is a form of Child Abuse.

It would be an interesting Case for certain..

Not NZ stat's ... don't care about other countries. I probably wont go there ... so irrelevant.

Well that's just being Petty, comparing similar countries (where the data IS available) is a valid technique.

You will never make a point with rough figures ... if you can't be bothered don't bother.

Well, there's no such thing as truly precise figures, all figures have elements of uncertainty about them. The point being that even with some quick calculations - the data supports the premise.

When was the last immediate death from measles in NZ ... ??

That's a loaded question, because you are trying to disprove the effects of the Disease, whilst simultaneously being protected from the effects of the disease from the very thing you are critiquing.

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 20:20

Your self delusions have repeatedly shown that is all you are worthy of.

Sounds like someone's being a little Able-ist...

Katman

18th January 2019, 20:37

To be honest, I think the only way to convince Anti-Vaxxers is to have them hold their own child in their arms, whilst the Child is dying from a preventable disease, the sad thing is - there are some that I don't think would even be convinced by that.

Seriously, could you sound any more hysterical?

TheDemonLord

18th January 2019, 21:05

Seriously, could you sound any more hysterical?

There is nothing Hysterical about it. That you think there is, is part of the problem.

matt.of.the.ingh

18th January 2019, 23:04

Search works fine, did you make the words and click the thingo? Funnily enough, he has three pages of posts to your five for that keyword.

If there is one thing we cant count on from ToDoLists, it's to never say anything he can't self delude his way out of, just the same as you do; so I have no doubt that any admissions of his autism will be dismissed as nothing of the sort...By he, do you mean demon lord? I've seen him mention autism loads in just this thread, all of them denying that he has it.
Everyone has Autistic tenancies, that's why it's referred to as a spectrum.

I've also read him repeatedly using clear evidence and correctly understood statistics to prove his points.

Demon lord, I think you may be bring to harsh by saying they are deliberately being malicious, I think that's making them mass and adding them thinking, or reading carefully what you say. They're just not that smart.
Seriously, check the comments about the bike helmet analogy, that's year four levels of comprehension and they consistently miss it whilst thinking their clever....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Katman

19th January 2019, 15:48

Demon lord, I think you may be bring to harsh by saying they are deliberately being malicious, I think that's making them mass and adding them thinking, or reading carefully what you say. They're just not that smart.

Oh the irony.

husaberg

19th January 2019, 16:05

Like I've said, you seem to struggle with basic English comprehension.

Anyhow, have you learned anything about polysorbate 80 yet?

So whats your issue with a very common ice cream ingredient that is also used in some Vaccines.
Regale me with exactly what your issue with it be used in minute quantities to keep the ingredients in suspension.
Why is it it suddenly intersts you do think that is somehow dangerous when used in vaccine.
If so do you have any evidence to suggest the levels used in vaccine or any food is somehow dangerous

Katman

19th January 2019, 17:31

So whats your issue with a very common ice cream ingredient that is also used in some Vaccines.

I'm assuming you don't inject your ice-cream.

husaberg

19th January 2019, 17:49

I'm assuming you don't inject your ice-cream.
This is not an awswer so spill the vanilla flavored beans.
What are you concerns and what are they based on this time a hunch some kook or scientific facts?
polysorbate 80 is a very common food ingredient that has been used for years with no issues when used inside many foods at far greater concentrations.
So why do you now think its noteworth for your next conspiracy hypothesis.

Katman

19th January 2019, 17:52

This is not an awswer so spill the vanilla flavored beans.
What are you concerns and what are they based on this time a hunch some kook or scientific facts?

Do yourself a favour and read up on the pharmacological uses of polysorbate 80.

FJRider

19th January 2019, 19:11

By he, do you mean demon lord? I've seen him mention autism loads in just this thread, all of them denying that he has it.
Everyone has Autistic tenancies, that's why it's referred to as a spectrum.

Is english your second language ... or does the meaning of big words (you don't really understand or can pronounce) confuse you ... ???

Tenancies ... possession of land or property as a tenant.

Tendencies ... (probably the word you were intending) an inclination towards a particular characteristic or type of behavior.

FJRider

19th January 2019, 20:23

Promoting demonstrably false information ...

He promotes his opinion ... nothing more. He has no input or influence on any of the parents or guardians of any children at risk. Yet you continue to accuse him of being at fault ...

You admit to exceeding posted speed limits ... that could be construed as encouraging unlawful behavior ... thus responsible for some of the deaths on the roads of New Zealand.

Is it Fair? Well, That's an interesting concept - because whether or not it's fair depends on the degree of Complicity with the action.

Degree of complicity ... ?? How often do you exceed the speed limits ... ???

Right - Both are to guard someone vulnerable against potential Harm. One is mandated, one is not - you say the difference is a matter of Conscience: For you, what is the underlying philosophical difference (as you see it) that requires different courses of action?

Risk of prosecution ...

Right - now what if his action to jump, doesn't actually effect him, but instead could cause someone else, most likely a child, serious injury or Death - would you still let him do it?

What if ..??? ... is that all you've got ... :killingme

Sounds an awful lot like an Appeal to Legislation: "It's not against the law, therefore it must be okay" - was Slavery bad? There are many things that the Law says I have to do that I don't particularly like - Paying Taxes (for example) - yet, I acknowledge that these things are the cost of entry, to gain all the benefits of Society. So from that we accept certain limitations on individual freedom, in order to have a functional society. The Question is - is this one of those Areas where a limitation should be applied.

You are just another citizen of this country ... that picks and chooses which part of the legislation they choose to comply with (or not). Usually with the certainty of being caught an element in deciding factor not to comply with the law. Nothing we haven't already noticed ...

If you want my full honest opinion ...

You never gave it in the past ... and you expect us to believe you now ...

when enough people fail to make the correct choice and end up Harming others, the government has to step in.

But in the meantime ... you chose to blame those not involved with the decisions that may have caused harm.

Right - so you ask for Facts, then proceed to summarily dismiss them...

What is lacking is your proof of Katmans conspiracy to kill. All you have his stated opinion.

To be honest, I think the only way to convince Anti-Vaxxers is to have them hold their own child in their arms, whilst the Child is dying from a preventable disease, the sad thing is - there are some that I don't think would even be convinced by that.

A parent holding their child as it dies from the result of that parents excessive speed ... fails to prevent that parent exceeding posted speed limits in the future. Your theory leaves a lot to be desired. Like admitting fault and responsibility by those directly involved with the deaths.

Glad you agree, so if the above is true - it stands to reason that in some circumstances, a small amount of unavoidable death in the pursuit of greater outcome IS acceptable.

Death (in most cases) is due to multiple factors ... only a few of those are usually known prior to a death. Especially on the roads of NZ. Do you think this might happen in the matter of vaccinations ??? Would not getting a vaccination be the sole cause of death ... ??

what would be needed would be a Test Case in the High Courts to see if Legal Precedent could be set - that would require many thousands of Man hours and hundreds of Thousands of Dollars I simply do not have.

Start a "Givealittle" page ...

Well that's just being Petty, comparing similar countries (where the data IS available) is a valid technique.

Petty ... :killingme: Valid .. debatable ... ?? ... but Legal ... if accusations are true. But if found to be false accusations ... expensive.

Well, there's no such thing as truly precise figures, all figures have elements of uncertainty about them.

The belief of statistics entirely depends on the statisticians ability to reduce (or remove) the elements of uncertainty.

That's a loaded question ...

You noticed ... :innocent:

husaberg

19th January 2019, 20:29

Do yourself a favour and read up on the pharmacological uses of polysorbate 80.

I am doing you a favour endulging your latest misdirected conspiacy theory

to associate a very common minor ingredient commonly used in food and vaccines.
With any comparable studies or use that produced scientifically proven harm at a dose rate comparable to that used in a vaccine.
So if you cant actually say what your issue is i am picking you don't have anything factual.
Or you are too afraid as you suspect of your latest pet theory is what all your others have been
A false accusation made with no scientific basis ie the usual massive over exaggeration of effects of a substance
used in another way, delivered in a totally different manner, at a totally different dose rate

Katman

19th January 2019, 21:41

I am doing you a favour endulging your latest misdirected conspiacy theory

to associate a very common minor ingredient commonly used in food and vaccines.
With any comparable studies or use that produced scientifically proven harm at a dose rate comparable to that used in a vaccine.
So if you cant actually say what your issue is i am picking you don't have anything factual.
Or you are too afraid as you suspect of your latest pet theory is what all your others have been
A false accusation made with no scientific basis ie the usual massive over exaggeration of effects of a substance
used in another way, delivered in a totally different manner, at a totally different dose rate

You sound seriously fucking retarded.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 07:11

You sound seriously fucking retarded.

Retarded would be throwing out names of compounds thenvacting ike there use in vaccines was a issue while not being able to provide any credible evidence of their use in vaccines is actually dangerous or harmful.
As you haven't despite being asked three times now, its pretty clear you cant produce anything creditable or comparable or scientific.

Katman

20th January 2019, 07:29

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2017/ra/c6ra27242h

husaberg

20th January 2019, 08:35

https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2017/ra/c6ra27242h

So....
As i said comparable.
1 dogs have a significantly faster metabolic rate thn humans
2 Anaphylac reactions to vaccinations in Humans are 1/ million vs death of diseases which they are bweing vaccinated against is hundreds of times more likely to occur.
3 The dose rate as you were harping on about the ability to distrupt the blood brain barrier we know this as its part of ongoing research into treating brain tumours in cancer patients.
4 We also know that to induce this effect in humans requires a dose 2700 times higher that what is found in vaccine containing polysorbate 80.http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/components-DTaP.htm
5 if you go to the materials used in the study and go to the product number you sited they also contain polysorbate 80 compounds that are notrated as inject-able pharmaceutical grade compounds. vaccine use inject-able approved compounds exclusively.
6 without using compounds such as polysorbate 80 vaccines would not be as effective because the ingrediants would fail to mix and stay in suspension
Also your ice creams would partially freeze into ice crystals and the components would settle out much like what hppens if you leave whipped cream in a bowl in the fridge for a week.

Katman

20th January 2019, 09:46

And the obvious question that should be asked......

Is the polysorbate 80 responsible for the abnormally high levels of aluminium found in the brain of autistic people?

http://vaccinepapers.org/high-aluminum-content-autistic-brains/

husaberg

20th January 2019, 10:04

And the obvious question that should asked......

Is the polysorbate 80 responsible for the abnormally high levels of aluminium found in the brain of autistic people?

http://vaccinepapers.org/high-aluminum-content-autistic-brains/

but to draw that conclusion you would first have to ignore 2700 times Higher levels are needed of polysorbate 80 than are actually contained in VACCINATION or the fact Autism has no correlation with vaccination at all.
IN FACT QUITE THE OPPOSITE AS WE KNOW WAKEFEILD MADE UP HIS WORK AND DOCTORED THE RESULTS.
WE ALSO KNOW FROM JAPANS RESULTS THAT THERE IS NO CORRELATION between autism and vaccination.

So what you are calling the obvious question is not an obvious question at all, or anything obvious to do to do with Vaccination which in case you missed it. Vaccination is the subject of the thread.
but it appears you are fueling up the SS Narcisistic on a conspiracy fishing expedition with no map, no GPS, no bait, no hooks, no fish finder,or any oher navigational aids or it appears a captain with a clear sense of direction but just a massive trawler net.

Katman

20th January 2019, 10:19

but to draw that conclusion

I'm not drawing a conclusion.

I'm asking a question.

And it's a question that you sure as fuck don't have the definitive answer to.

Katman

20th January 2019, 10:25

but to draw that conclusion you would first have to ignore 2700 times Higher levels are needed of polysorbate 80 than are actually contained in VACCINATION or the fact Autism has no correlation with vaccination at all.
IN FACT QUITE THE OPPOSITE AS WE KNOW WAKEFEILD MADE UP HIS WORK AND DOCTORED THE RESULTS.
WE ALSO KNOW FROM JAPANS RESULTS THAT THERE IS NO CORRELATION between autism and vaccination.

Is there a correlation between autism and excessive capitalisation?

You and TDL would suggest so.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 10:47

I'm not drawing a conclusion.

I'm asking a question.

And it's a question that you sure as fuck don't have the definitive answer to.

The definitive answer ist its clear you don't have a clue or you wouldn't be asking such stupid question or trying to make such comparisons in a thread about vaccination.
As i have pointed out now three times John Hopkins medical researchers have shown it takes levels of polysorbate 80 2700 times higher than are contained in Vaccination to Bridge the BBB
Go start a thread about autism if that is the subject you wish to pursue. Only everyone knows that is not what you will do you would rather troll arrond taking stuff out of context and spread arround misinformation.

No, you caught autism instead.

Minus the mercury, aluminium, polysorbate 80, formaldehyde etc. etc.

Not injected into them though.

There's this thing called the blood/brain barrier.

Polysorbate 80 is used to overcome that barrier.

It's predicated on scientific study.

Look it up.

Here's an idea for some of you.....

Google something along the lines of 'studies showing the synergistic relationship between different vaccine ingredients' and let us know what you find.

'Cos I haven't managed to find anything in all my searching so far.

I'm not basing my statement on any particular study.

I'm saying that one of the uses of polysorbate 80 in pharmacology is to get certain medication past the blood brain barrier.

Don't just take my word for it though. Google 'polysorbate 80 blood brain barrier'.

Dude, google it.

There are scientific studies out there.

Like I've said, you seem to struggle with basic English comprehension.

Anyhow, have you learned anything about polysorbate 80 yet?

I used them exactly as I intended to use them.

The post where I said "it's predicated on scientific study" means exactly that - predicated on (the field of) scientific study. (Note the singular use of the word study - without the word 'a' before the word scientific).

The post were I said there are scientific studies out there means exactly that - there are scientific studies out there that show polysorbate 80 is used to pass certain medications through the blood brain barrier.

Clear now?

I'm assuming you don't inject your ice-cream.

Do yourself a favour and read up on the pharmacological uses of polysorbate 80.

But instead of that you wont you will as normal continue to post yet another conspiracy flavour of the month in a thread where you keep banging on about autism vaccination and Wakefeild
When its obvious to anyone its been continually and statistically proven to anyone with half a brain that there is no correlation between vaccination and Autism.
So the question you say you are asking is either pathetically of topic or its just as i said another Voyage of the SS narcissistic where you are trawling the bottom as normal.

Katman

20th January 2019, 15:23

As i have pointed out now three times John Hopkins medical researchers have shown it takes levels of polysorbate 80 2700 times higher than are contained in Vaccination to Bridge the BBB.

Did you get that information from something John Hopkins researchers have published or did you just get it from Scientist Abe's blog site?

https://scientistabe.wordpress.com/2017/09/06/bbbjunk-sciences-polysorbate-80-and-the-bbb-or-how-to-put-anti-vaxxers-into-a-blowing-cognitive-dissonance/

husaberg

20th January 2019, 15:32

Did you get that information from something John Hopkins researchers have published or did you just get it from Scientist Abe's blog site?

https://scientistabe.wordpress.com/2017/09/06/bbbjunk-sciences-polysorbate-80-and-the-bbb-or-how-to-put-anti-vaxxers-into-a-blowing-cognitive-dissonance/

i posted the link to the John Hopkins research paper. i have no idea whether it was that site or any of the others i have read.
But i notice you don't faulthis maths or the original paper.
Nor have you commented on the fact that the data you linked involed injection non injectable polysolbate 80.
You wouldn't have picked it out but i found it in about 45 seconds just by checking the spec sheets
The fact that you continue to post the tripe you do about autism and Vaccination shows you are not interested in facts or logic
You only either want to troll and spread misinformation or more likely you are that gullible the gallons of conspiracy kool aid you have drinking is actually 100% polysolbate 80
There are plenty of sites that debunk the crap that the antivax oinks have been posting on the net that gullible conspiratards like you lap up, the funniest is the ones where the antivaxers try and make out its actually in there as a contraceptive.
From memory that one was so misrepresented it involved the need to give a baby 4000 doses of Vaccine directly into the womb to replicate the trial done on hamsters that resulted in a loss or fertility.

Katman

20th January 2019, 15:36

i posted the link to the John Hopkins research paper.

No, the link you posted was simply a page listing the components of the DTaP vaccine.

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 15:38

He promotes his opinion ... nothing more. He has no input or influence on any of the parents or guardians of any children at risk. Yet you continue to accuse him of being at fault ...

But in the meantime ... you chose to blame those not involved with the decisions that may have caused harm.

What is lacking is your proof of Katmans conspiracy to kill. All you have his stated opinion.

Not to take you out of Context - but I feel these 3 comments are part of the same argument, so I'm grouping them together to give a single response. Firstly - do you accept the premises that:

A: Measles is a highly virulent and potentially fatal disease, particularly to Children
B: The risk of death from measles is significantly higher than the risk of death from a Vaccine
C: The historical record shows that when we had ~95% vaccination rates, there were zero fatalities from Measles and when those rates fell, we saw Fatal cases of Measles
D: One of the biggest Causal factors in decreased vaccination rates is due to the Anti-Vax movement
E: Said Movement relies in people (such as Katman) in spreading and perpetuating their viewpoint
F: Katman regularly, voluntarily, posts links to articles/'studies'/YT videos that fall under the category of 'Anti-Vax content' and does so without being asked or not in response to something

I believe that on all points, there is sufficient evidence to backup these claims (for example - see posts after https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/159661-Thinking-of-getting-vaccinated?p=1131103939#post1131103939)

based on the above premises, there is a clear logical and causal chain between Katman promoting his anti-vax opinion, and people opting not to vaccinate based on repeatedly disproved lies.

You ask about a conspiracy to kill - well, considering how many times the overwhelming mountain of evidence (Including a case study that exists for when an entire first world nation stops using the MMR vaccine) has been pointed out to him - it's either that or he's clinically Delusional. Since he's able to form coherent thoughts on other matters - that rules out Delusional - so what are we left with?

You admit to exceeding posted speed limits ... that could be construed as encouraging unlawful behavior ... thus responsible for some of the deaths on the roads of New Zealand.

Degree of complicity ... ?? How often do you exceed the speed limits ... ???

You are just another citizen of this country ... that picks and chooses which part of the legislation they choose to comply with (or not). Usually with the certainty of being caught an element in deciding factor not to comply with the law. Nothing we haven't already noticed ...

A parent holding their child as it dies from the result of that parents excessive speed ... fails to prevent that parent exceeding posted speed limits in the future. Your theory leaves a lot to be desired. Like admitting fault and responsibility by those directly involved with the deaths.

These too form a single argument - grouping together to respond.

This is a massive false equivalency. Can you point out where I've encouraged other people to speed? Futhermore Speeding itself doesn't cause the crash - it's the associated effects (too fast for the conditions, too fast for the corner, dangerous overtaking etc.) - whereas measeles definitely does kill. Even if you take the most charitable side of 'it's just stating his opinion' - can you show where I've just stated my opinion that it's right for people to speed AND that the studies done on the effects of crashing at speed are crocked/fasle as the behest of 'Big Auto' AND that I present alternative, debunked and retracted 'studies' as proof?

Show me doing that for a start, then we can pick apart why the above argument is BS without the massive fallacy.

Risk of prosecution ...

That's an Appeal to the Law - If that's the case, then Slavery wasn't morally wrong or evil as there was no risk of Prosecution for owning slaves when it was Legal.

I'll ask again - what is the philosophical difference between the 2?

What if ..??? ... is that all you've got ... :killingme

No, the point (and by evading the question, you show you know the answer and where it leads) is to show that we can accept people doing something stupid if they alone suffer the consequences of their stupidity, but when it's not them, but other people that suffer - this becomes a different issue, one that in many instances mandates an intervention (whether that be at the Personal, Societal or Governmental level).

You never gave it in the past ... and you expect us to believe you now ...

Har Har, jab well made (THE PUN!) - I was infact acknowledging the libertarian argument, and that I don't like the fact that we need to have this discussion as I wish people would be able to separate the objective facts from the BS, but alas, the world is not perfect.

Death (in most cases) is due to multiple factors ... only a few of those are usually known prior to a death. Especially on the roads of NZ. Do you think this might happen in the matter of vaccinations ??? Would not getting a vaccination be the sole cause of death ... ??

Well, consider the data when we maintained a ~95% vaccination rates for over a Decade - ZERO Measles deaths, the Anti-vaxxers come along, rates fall to 90% - we now have Measles deaths - even if you were to exclude death from secondary conditions (such as Pneumonia etc.) you still have as you say "not getting a vaccination be the sole cause of death" very clearly established.

Start a "Givealittle" page ...

Would need to switch careers and get a few decades of experience under my belt to have sufficient credentials to honestly start one.

Petty ... :killingme: Valid .. debatable ... ?? ... but Legal ... if accusations are true. But if found to be false accusations ... expensive.

There's a difference between not being proved and false accusations. Point was to show figures for countries with similar traits to ours (so not using say the figures from Angola or some other African country) and then show that the risk is as real as I'm making it out to be, and the only reason the death rate is so low is due to the protection afforded by Vaccination.

To use the low rate of death to portray that the risk of measles is low, therefore the vaccination is unnecessary, whilst using the low figures that are due to Vaccination is dishonest.

The belief of statistics entirely depends on the statisticians ability to reduce (or remove) the elements of uncertainty.

Fair point - answer me this: even with a high level of uncertainty, you can still make draw a conclusion as to which way the trend is going. Even with the rough numbers and calculations provided - does it point more towards the position that I hold or more towards the position that Katman holds?

Katman

20th January 2019, 15:51

Even with the rough numbers and calculations provided - does it point more towards the position that I hold or more towards the position that Katman holds?

This isn't a competition between you and I.

I'm merely trying to encourage open and frank discussion about a subject that I consider to be of huge importance.

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 15:53

By he, do you mean demon lord? I've seen him mention autism loads in just this thread, all of them denying that he has it.
Everyone has Autistic tenancies, that's why it's referred to as a spectrum.

I've also read him repeatedly using clear evidence and correctly understood statistics to prove his points.

Demon lord, I think you may be bring to harsh by saying they are deliberately being malicious, I think that's making them mass and adding them thinking, or reading carefully what you say. They're just not that smart.
Seriously, check the comments about the bike helmet analogy, that's year four levels of comprehension and they consistently miss it whilst thinking their clever....

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

I've been arguing with Katman on various topics since I joined this forum - he's an avid devotee of various conspiracies theories - and though I'll call him a fuckwith and an idiot - he's not completely stupid, for instance, his observations on the cause of rider crashes is normally spot on.

Since he knows the relevant data and chooses the side of the Conspiracy - I'm left with Malice.

As for Graystone - I suspect he 90% agrees with me on the Vaccination front (I don't know what his stance would be on compulsory vaccination), but even since I denounced the Cult of Social Justice (which he is an avid devotee), I'm the equivalent of either the Great Satan or a chauvanist pig from the 1800s - and so he can't bring himself to agree with me on anything else, lest he acknowledge that I could be right on something and have an understanding on various issues.

Which is why he's only popped in to engage in point-scoring against me, hence why I don't attribute good-faith to him either.

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 15:57

This isn't a competition between you and I.

I'm merely trying to encourage open and frank discussion about a subject that I consider to be hugely important.

Which issue do you consider to be hugely important?

Is it the Libertarian issue of governmental encroachment?
Is it the (widely debunked) issue of a link between Vaccines and Autism?
Is it the (objectively wrong) issue of the danger of a Vaccine outweighing the risk of the Disease?
Is it the jealousy that companies make what you consider to be excessive profits?

Because you keep flitting between each aspect, curiously when you get owned on whatever point you were previously on.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 15:58

i posted the link to the John Hopkins research paper. i have no idea whether it was that site or any of the others i have read.
But i notice you don't faulthis maths or the original paper.
Nor have you commented on the fact that the data you linked involed injection non injectable polysolbate 80.
You wouldn't have picked it out but i found it in about 45 seconds just by checking the spec sheets
The fact that you continue to post the tripe you do about autism and Vaccination shows you are not interested in facts or logic
You only either want to troll and spread misinformation or more likely you are that gullible the gallons of conspiracy kool aid you have drinking is actually 100% polysolbate 80
There are plenty of sites that debunk the crap that the antivax oinks have been posting on the net that gullible conspiratards like you lap up, the funniest is the ones where the antivaxers try and make out its actually in there as a contraceptive.
From memory that one was so misrepresented it involved the need to give a baby 4000 doses of Vaccine directly into the womb to replicate the trial done on hamsters that resulted in a loss or fertility.

No, the link you posted was simply a page listing the components of the DTaP vaccine.

Sorry right you are here is the abstract of the origional data the Johns Hopkins data was the Amounts present
https://thejns.org/view/journals/j-neurosurg/61/4/article-p674.xml
That still dosnt alter the fact that 2700 times the amount is needed or 4000 for your next conspiracy which will involve fertility which i am sure is a matter very close to your heart.

So it still doesn't account for your continued assertions about Autism and Vaccination seeing as how that was debunked long long ago.

Katman

20th January 2019, 16:11

Which issue do you consider to be hugely important?

Is it the Libertarian issue of governmental encroachment?
Is it the (widely debunked) issue of a link between Vaccines and Autism?
Is it the (objectively wrong) issue of the danger of a Vaccine outweighing the risk of the Disease?
Is it the jealousy that companies make what you consider to be excessive profits?

Primarily number 1.

But I also believe that we need to get to the bottom of what is causing the massive increase in the number of cases of autism.

(And yes, I'm aware that you will claim that there hasn't been an increase and that it is simply down to improved diagnosis - but I don't buy that).

Katman

20th January 2019, 16:15

Sorry right you are here is the abstract of the origional data the Johns Hopkins data was the Amounts present
https://thejns.org/view/journals/j-neurosurg/61/4/article-p674.xml

Where does it say anything about your "2700 times less" claim?

husaberg

20th January 2019, 16:15

Primarily number 1.

But I also believe that we need to get to the bottom of what is causing the massive increase in the number of cases of autism.

(And yes, I'm aware that you will claim that there hasn't been an increase and that it is simply down to improved diagnosis - but I don't buy that).

Do you notice how it went massively up in Japan despite vaccination rates going down or do you not want to discuss that

husaberg

20th January 2019, 16:16

Where does it say anything about your "2700 times less" claim?

The rate needed was calculated the rate in the vaccine is styated its pretty simple maths

Katman

20th January 2019, 16:18

The rate needed was calculated the rate in the vaccine is styated its pretty simple maths

Show me where the John Hopkins researchers calculated the amount needed to overcome the blood brain barrier then.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 16:21

Show me where the John Hopkins researchers calculated the amount needed to overcome the blood brain barrier then.

Refer to post 4550

While your there
Have a read of this
https://vaxopedia.org/2018/03/08/vaccines-and-the-blood-brain-barrier/
http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/09/polysorbate-80-hysteria-one-for-maths.html
https://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/02/toxins-in-vaccines/
https://scientistabe.wordpress.com/2016/05/21/neurosciencesbbb-thiomersal-and-the-blood-brain-barrier-where-does-the-science-stand/
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/hpv-vaccine-affects-fertility-another-myth/

Katman

20th January 2019, 16:27

http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2012/09/polysorbate-80-hysteria-one-for-maths.html

'Science based vaccine information from Catherina and Science Mom'.

Are you for fucking real?

Katman

20th January 2019, 16:34

Refer to post 4550

How about you just show us where it's been established that the amount of polysorbate 80 in a vaccine is 2700 times less than that needed to overcome the blood brain barrier.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 16:35

'Science based vaccine information from Catherina and Science Mom'.

Are you for fucking real?

So Science Mom Academic Scientist who isan infectious disease researcher employed by an academic institution.
Vs Steve from Taupo B2 in School cert English with a boy scout badge in first aid

or undergraduate degree in Biology from a top US research university and a graduate degree in Biochemistry/Endocrinology from a major US research university
Vs Steve from Taupo B2 English School Cert with a boy scout badge in first aid

Or DAVID H. GORSKI, MD, PhD, FACS is a surgical oncologist at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute specializing in breast cancer surgery, where he also serves as the Medical Director of the Alexander J. Walt Comprehensive Breast Center, Professor of Surgery and Oncology at the Wayne State University School of Medicine.
Vs Steve from taupo B2 English School C with a boy scout badge in first aid

on the subject of Vaccine safety and ingredients
Gee i wonder which ones would be better equipped

Ps youn still havent commented why the paper you linked injected food grade Materials rather than Inject-table pharmacutical grade

Wakefeild in a nutshell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXtANMp3wok

Katman

20th January 2019, 17:35

on the subject of Vaccine safety and ingredients
Gee i wonder which ones would be better equipped

Dude, we stand at the crux of a potential breakthrough.

All you have to do is show where it has been irrefutably proven that vaccines contain 2700 times less than the amount of polysorbate 80 needed to overcome the blood brain barrier, and we can then put the whole polysorbate 80 topic to rest.

Chop chop.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 17:43

Dude, we stand at the crux of a potential breakthrough.

All you have to do is show where it has been irrefutably proven that vaccines contain 2700 times less than the amount of polysorbate 80 needed to overcome the blood brain barrier and we can then put the whole polysorbate 80 topic to rest.

Chop chop.

i posted the link you posted the source its not irrefutable it was the result of a researchers math that doesn't mean it can be done in humans after birth.
but what it does prove it isnt going to happen with 2700 times below the calculated rate to cross prior to birth
Just as is it is 11000 times the dose of a vaccine directly discharged into a womb to replicate the Fertility myth of Polysorbate 80 the antivaxers are trying to push

Katman

20th January 2019, 17:47

i posted the link you posted the source its not irrefutable it was the result of a researchers math that doesn't mean it can be done in adults after birth.

'Adults after birth'???

What the fuck are you trying to say?

Is your '2700 times' claim a load of shit?

husaberg

20th January 2019, 18:04

'Adults after birth'???

What the fuck are you trying to say?

Is your '2700 times' claim a load of shit?

No in humans after birth i removed the adults as it was confusing. plus not the correct term what i should have said was humans post birth. long before you replied
Its not a load of shit its basic math. for people who have more than a Boy Scout first aid badge and a B2 in School cert english
Because if one can calculate how much it takes to accomplish it in gestation its pretty easy to establish that 2700 the times smaller ammount that is present in vacines isnt going to accomplish it post birth

ps i still have yet to see your explanation of why your paper you linked would be injecting food grade materials rather than using exclusively using pharmaceutical inject-able grades

nor have you commented how your credential stack up vs the the stuff i posted

So Science Mom Academic Scientist who isan infectious disease researcher employed by an academic institution.
Vs Steve from Taupo B2 in School cert English with a boy scout badge in first aid

or undergraduate degree in Biology from a top US research university and a graduate degree in Biochemistry/Endocrinology from a major US research university
Vs Steve from Taupo B2 English School Cert with a boy scout badge in first aid

Or DAVID H. GORSKI, MD, PhD, FACS is a surgical oncologist at the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute specializing in breast cancer surgery, where he also serves as the Medical Director of the Alexander J. Walt Comprehensive Breast Center, Professor of Surgery and Oncology at the Wayne State University School of Medicine.
Vs Steve from taupo B2 English School C with a boy scout badge in first aid

Nor have you mentioned why it is you continue to troll on about Autism in a vaccine thread when it has been comprehensively proven there was never a link other than Wakefeilds idea to make a few million dollars out of making up one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXtANMp3wok

Katman

20th January 2019, 18:22

No in humans after birth i removed the adults as it was confusing. plus not the correct term what i should have said was humans post birth. long before you replied
Its not a load of shit its basic math. for people who have more than a Boy Scout first aid badge and a B2 in School cert english
Because if one can calculate how much it takes to accomplish it in gestation its pretty easy to establish that 2700 the times smaller ammount that is present in vacines isnt going to accomplish it post birth

So are you admitting that the '2700 times less' claim is just one persons opinion and isn't supported by any actual fact?

FJRider

20th January 2019, 18:23

Not to take you out of Context - but I feel these 3 comments are part of the same argument ...

Your opinion ... not mine.

I believe that on all points, there is sufficient evidence to backup these claims

I don't believe there is.

based on the above premises, there is a clear logical and causal chain between Katman promoting his anti-vax opinion, and people opting not to vaccinate based on repeatedly disproved lies.

Is this is a case of law breaking or morals ...

so what are we left with ?

Whats this "We'' bit ... ??? you are the one making claims about Katman's opinions. Entirely LEGAL opinions.

Can you claim any particular number of people (anywhere in the world) that he has coerced into adopting his views ... Thus endangering children ... ???

Can you point out where I've encouraged other people to speed? Show me doing that for a start, then we can pick apart why the above argument is BS without the massive fallacy.

I didn't even ask or suggest that. I just asked how often do you choose to exceed the posted speed limit. Your answer would (perhaps) show the validity of your own morals ...

That's an Appeal to the Law - If that's the case, then Slavery wasn't morally wrong or evil as there was no risk of Prosecution for owning slaves when it was Legal.

An activity that was perfectly legal at the time. A change of attitudes and opinions caused a change in the law. As will probably the law regarding smoking in public places. (watch this space) ... :lol:

No, the point (and by evading the question, you show you know the answer and where it leads) is to show that we can accept people doing something stupid if they alone suffer the consequences of their stupidity, but when it's not them, but other people that suffer - this becomes a different issue, one that in many instances mandates an intervention (whether that be at the Personal, Societal or Governmental level).

How many people get injured by that one persons stupidity is always the question ... in most cases it's just a matter of luck. It is difficult to limit injuries to that one stupid person. Especially in activities that outside the bounds of the law. Deaths resulting from activities that are not usually seen to be life threatening do happen as well. COULD happen is not ... WILL happen.

I wish people would be able to separate the objective facts from the BS, but alas, the world is not perfect.

Nor are you. So forget world issues out and concentrate on obeying the LAWS of this country. Much safer for all of us.

Would need to switch careers and get a few decades of experience under my belt to have sufficient credentials to honestly start one.

No commitment. That's your base issue. You can only argue world issues here on KB (and it's everybody else's fault).

There's a difference between not being proved and false accusations.

Throw enough mud and some will stick ... right ... ??

To use the low rate of death to portray that the risk of measles is low, therefore the vaccination is unnecessary, whilst using the low figures that are due to Vaccination is dishonest.

Who is dishonest ... the person distributing the numbers ... ?? Would that be ... Katman ... ???

Fair point - answer me this: even with a high level of uncertainty, you can still make draw a conclusion as to which way the trend is going.

Even with the rough numbers and calculations provided - does it point more towards the position that I hold or more towards the position that Katman holds?

People jump to conclusions all the time. If it even just seems like a good idea (at the time) people get hurt or die. Which conclusion is drawn can and will always vary. Depending on circumstance ... and a large degree of luck.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 18:36

So are you admitting that the '2700 times less' claim is just one persons opinion and isn't supported by any actual fact?

I see you are talking shit again
Imagine my surprise to see you trying to manipulate stuff in the vaccine thread......
hows about you go to the link i posted then dig deep and pay your $33 US and read the paper in full.
Then you can get a time machine smoke less pot, eat less lead paint, stop sniffing petrol at school reach a triple digit iq and obtain some real degree in biological science or medicine beyond your curent B2 in School cert english and a Boy Scout first aid badge and then you can argue the point on an even footing with Pardridge WM. Who wote the paper or Azmin MN, Stuart JF, Florence AT. who researched and who calculated that a dose of polysorbate-80 of 3-30 mg/kg will cause BBB disruption in mice.
Seeing as humans are both bigger and less permable after birth explain how its not going to take at 2700 times more than the dose of polysorbate-80 thats contained in a vaccine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC539316/?fref=gc&dti=873247819461536
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3995684

Katman

20th January 2019, 18:45

I see you are talking shit again
Imagine my surprise to see you trying to manipulate stuff in the vaccine thread......
hows about you go to thelink i postedr pay your $33 US and read the paper in full.
Then you can get a time machine smoke less pot eat less lead stop sniffing petrol at school and obtain some real degree in biological science otr medine beyond your curent B2v in School cert english and a Boy Scout first aid badge and then you can argue the point on an even footing.

I'll take that as an admission your claim is a load of shit.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 18:56

I'll take that as an admission your claim is a load of shit.

Gee, what gave it away your sudden need to edit the Authours out my post.;)
Quick post about 5 more posts so the page changes like you normally do.
then maybe you can pretend we dont know what a human weighs when they are vaccinated or how much polysorbate 80 is in vaccines gee if only there was a way of figuring those two out with a School cert B2 in English
or if only we could calculate the rate required of Polysoybate 80 that produced the statistic difference as being 90mg/kg and compare it to the amount contained in vaccines ie 0.1mg per dose. and divide it by the weight of a new born ie 3 kg.then i could make up a number that looked like it would take 2700 times more polysoyate 80 than is contained in a vaccine before it would even stand a mathematical chance. but seeing as we know the barrier shuts prior to birth thats all it would be but then why bother
just go post some further misinformation in the hope of scaring some poor sap into not vaccinating their child based on your compulsive need to troll and post false information so people dont stop their children from suffering needlessly from preventable diseases.

Katman

20th January 2019, 19:07

Gee, what gave it away your sudden need to edit the Authours out my post.;)
Quick post about 5 more posts so the page changes like you normally do.

So where do those links support your '2700 times less' claim?

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 19:19

Primarily number 1.

Then drop all the other nonsense then. And I'm not being entirely facetious here - if you want to honestly argue the libertarian point of view - forget Wakefield, Forget Greer, forget the disproven links between Vaccines and Autism.

Argue that case purely on it's own merits and using the most vigorously tested science.

Because I'll let you into a little secret - you CAN make a reasonable argument from that position, and if you drop all the other Anti-Vax BS and misinformation - you might find it a bit more persuasive...

But I also believe that we need to get to the bottom of what is causing the massive increase in the number of cases of autism.

Although Husa pointed it out: Japan. There is your test for your theory and it is a conclusive refutation, even if there was no other scientific evidence to the contrary.

(And yes, I'm aware that you will claim that there hasn't been an increase and that it is simply down to improved diagnosis - but I don't buy that).

Okay - why don't you buy it? Serious question - do you have a reason (other than it provides a refutation for your Anti-Vax position) or is this simply an Argument for Incredulity?

I mean the annals of British history is filled with various people who based on contemporary descriptions of them and their mannerisms would likely be referred to as 'Autistic' - which suggests to me that there has always been a signigicant enough Baseline.

But lets just assume your position for a minute - some possibilities could be around the social environment that kids are brought up in:

One thought (that I'll grant you is pure speculation) could be to do with the decline of rigid social etiquette. What I mean by this, if you assume that Autism (as a condition) exists at a fairly standard rate throughout time, then what has been the change that has made the behaviour noticeable to the point where it has a condition associated with it. First would be advances in behavioral sciences, but if you consider one Autistic trait of doing things in a very set way - then having a rigid social etiquette may actually help an Autistic person cope in a social situation. Autistic people tend to flourish in situations set rules (Such as IT or Engineering or other fields where they are over-represented), and so it could be that as our Society has become less and less formal (with set rules and conventions of acting) - the Autistic members of the population have become more and more visible by contrast.

Katman

20th January 2019, 19:40

Then drop all the other nonsense then. And I'm not being entirely facetious here - if you want to honestly argue the libertarian point of view - forget Wakefield, Forget Greer, forget the disproven links between Vaccines and Autism.

Argue that case purely on it's own merits and using the most vigorously tested science.

I'm not only arguing from a libertarian point of view.

I'm arguing from a moralistic point of view as well.

If a parent has a child who suffers an adverse reaction from a vaccine, should that parent be forced to gamble with their second child as well?

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 19:44

I don't believe there is.

Okay - which point do you not believe the evidence for?

Is this is a case of law breaking or morals ...

Morals first, and possibly law second (but as stated - would need a test case)

Whats this "We'' bit ... ??? you are the one making claims about Katman's opinions. Entirely LEGAL opinions.

You're the one critiquing me, yet curiously - apart from a simple denial, appeal to law and a false equivalency - I see nothing in your posts that is an actual rebuttal. I've outlined my chain of Logic - You've said you don't buy it, fair enough - what don't you buy?

Can you claim any particular number of people (anywhere in the world) that he has coerced into adopting his views ... Thus endangering children ... ???

Coerced? who said Coerced? Stop with the bait and switch.

I know what you are trying to do - which is to say because I can't point to a specific example - then the charge is null and void.

However - that's a variant of the Nuremberg defence - which is to say not guilty due to only playing a small part - but every person who actively promotes an Anti-Vax viewpoint is responsible for giving the movement the air of legitimacy, which in turn results in some parents not vaccinating their children due to misinformation and thus endangering them and others in Society. Need I (again) remind you of the Death rate before and due to the Anti-Vax movement? You keep not wanting to acknowledge that part - which is rather telling...

I didn't even ask or suggest that. I just asked how often do you choose to exceed the posted speed limit. Your answer would (perhaps) show the validity of your own morals ...

For it to be equivalent for the accusation I'm levelling at Katman, you'd need to show that I repeatedly post things that encourage people to Speed. You can't do that, because I don't - therefore the whole comparison is fallacious.

An activity that was perfectly legal at the time. A change of attitudes and opinions caused a change in the law. As will probably the law regarding smoking in public places. (watch this space) ... :lol:

I didn't ask if it was Legal - I asked whether or not it was Moral or Right.

But let's cut the BS shall we: You're refusing to answer because to say Slavery was immoral or wrong when it was Legal is to validate that something can be wrong whilst not yet being illegal, so your appeal to law falls flat (which is, interestingly, why it's a fallacy), to try and argue the Slavery was right and Moral - well, I would never think so low of you.

How many people get injured by that one persons stupidity is always the question ... in most cases it's just a matter of luck. It is difficult to limit injuries to that one stupid person. Especially in activities that outside the bounds of the law. Deaths resulting from activities that are not usually seen to be life threatening do happen as well. COULD happen is not ... WILL happen.

Let me change that for you: Measles in a sufficiently unvaccinated population (less than 90-95%) WILL be fatal to someone. May not be you, may not be Me, but it WILL be fatal to someone. It's not a case of Could.

Who is dishonest ... the person distributing the numbers ... ?? Would that be ... Katman ... ???

You ask me to provide data, I provide it and do some rough calculations (and show them) to backup the point I'm making. Then you try to make an implication that Measles isn't that dangerous - ignoring the fact that the data for that conclusion comes from somewhere that has a high vaccination rate. That, is a Dishonest argument.

Katman

20th January 2019, 19:49

One thought (that I'll grant you is pure speculation) could be to do with the decline of rigid social etiquette. What I mean by this, if you assume that Autism (as a condition) exists at a fairly standard rate throughout time, then what has been the change that has made the behaviour noticeable to the point where it has a condition associated with it. First would be advances in behavioral sciences, but if you consider one Autistic trait of doing things in a very set way - then having a rigid social etiquette may actually help an Autistic person cope in a social situation. Autistic people tend to flourish in situations set rules (Such as IT or Engineering or other fields where they are over-represented), and so it could be that as our Society has become less and less formal (with set rules and conventions of acting) - the Autistic members of the population have become more and more visible by contrast.

As you're well aware though, autism goes well beyond just quirky mannerisms.

The prevelance of more severe neurological disorders has been on the increase as well.

husaberg

20th January 2019, 20:17

As you're well aware though, autism goes well beyond just quirky mannerisms.

The prevelance of more severe neurological disorders has been on the increase as well.

Academics have long pondered if the pumice soils of Taupo are the cause of narcissistic personalty disorders and paranoia that run rampant in their region the only hope is the decrease in fertility that goes along with the disorders keeps the traits highly localised from spreading to the wider population.

FJRider

20th January 2019, 21:19

Okay - which point do you not believe the evidence for?

Morals first, and possibly law second (but as stated - would need a test case)

Any/all your "Points" ... Those that take the moral high ground ... usually find it a difficult climb up. Some do make it up there ... but few stay there long.

No possibility of law helping if it's perfectly legal. Wait for a law change (For how long was slavery allowed before the laws were changed ... ??)

If the issue is so important ... why has there NOT been a test case .. ?? Are you the only one that cares ... ??

what don't you buy?

All your bullshit.

Coerced? who said Coerced? Stop with the bait and switch.

Well ... if he hasn't coerced anybody into adopting HIS views ... his opinions are only his opinion. Accusations of wrongdoing require proof. And you have none.

I know what you are trying to do

You aren't even close to knowing what I'm doing. Guess again ...

However - that's a variant of the Nuremberg defence - which is to say not guilty due to only playing a small part

So far ... you admit all Katman has done is held and stated his opinion. And now you're comparing it to the Nuremberg trial ... get real fella ...

you'd need to show that I repeatedly post things that encourage people to Speed. You can't do that, because I don't - therefore the whole comparison is fallacious.

I never said you did. But if you want to take a moral and/or legal high ground ... you shouldn't pick and choose which legal or moral high grounds that suits that you try to support.

But let's cut the BS shall we: You're refusing to answer because to say Slavery was immoral or wrong when it was Legal is to validate that something can be wrong whilst not yet being illegal

Opinions and attitudes change. And they cause change. But until those opinions change ... nothing will.

In the years of smoking in public buildings and transport ... how many (in NZ) contracted or died of cancer .. ??? But it was legal at the time. Do you smoke .. ???

That, is a Dishonest argument.

You accuse ME of dishonesty ... ??? Why don't you actually stop talking/arguing and do something positive (and constructive) to help with your perceived issue ... ???

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 21:37

I'm not only arguing from a libertarian point of view.

You don't say... That was kinda my point. You wrap your arguments in the clothing of the Libertarian argument, then when that is ripped to shreds (because you neither have the principles nor the belief in that position to actually argue it) we see the jealous conspiracy underneath.

I'm arguing from a moralistic point of view as well.

What Morals - ah yes, the one where you are uncomfortable with any action that results in Death, even if inaction results in significantly more Death.

If a parent has a child who suffers an adverse reaction from a vaccine, should that parent be forced to gamble with their second child as well?

If only I'd made exceptions for cases with a pre-existing condition (and a family history of severe adverse reactions would certainly qualify)

If only...

(so no pre-existing auto-immune conditions or any verified medical conditions where a vaccination wouldn't be appropriate)

And that, is where the facade of "I'm a Libertarian" and "I'm for the Moral choice" falls down - because when presented with an acknowledgement of the fringe cases where it would be appropriate not to vaccinate (the 5% of the population) - you ignore it, because you don't actually give a shit about that, you give a shit about your debunked Autism link and your hatred of Big Pharma.

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 21:47

As you're well aware though, autism goes well beyond just quirky mannerisms.

Well, yes - consider this - There has been much speculation that the Character of Sherlock Holmes (who was based on several real people) has enough traits that one could diagnose him with Autism or Aspergers (hyper attention to detail, extreme obsessive interests, disdain for social norms) - Again, all these character traits were based on real people.

But, in the highly rigid Victorian society where the rules of social etiquette were clearly defined, someone such as he could live and interact socially.

And without a diagnosis of Autism, descriptions such as odd, quirky etc. etc.

Another example would be Alan Turing.

The prevelance of more severe neurological disorders has been on the increase as well.

Is that due to better understanding of the Brain? Better Equipment? Most disorders weren't fully known before the 1950s - so...

TheDemonLord

20th January 2019, 22:09

Any/all your "Points" ... Those that take the moral high ground ... usually find it a difficult climb up. Some do make it up there ... but few stay there long.

So you got nothing then? I mean - I asked you to pick one, and you respond with this 'any/all' but decline to actually go any further...

No possibility of law helping if it's perfectly legal. Wait for a law change (For how long was slavery allowed before the laws were changed ... ??)

The law (and it's interpretation) is based upon principles and how they are applied - did you miss the part where I pointed to the Majority of US case law deeming that withholding a vaccine from a child is tantamount to Child Abuse (and before you quibble - yes, US case law HAS relevancy in NZ as both NZ and the US legal system is based on English Common Law)

If the issue is so important ... why has there NOT been a test case .. ?? Are you the only one that cares ... ??

Probably because we've yet to have a major outbreak that has resulted in multiple fatalities. If you read my responses properly, you'll note I care a great deal for the Libertarian PoV.

Well ... if he hasn't coerced anybody into adopting HIS views ... his opinions are only his opinion. Accusations of wrongdoing require proof. And you have none.

Except, Coercian isn't required. Incitement to violence doesn't involve Coercion, afterall it's just someone spreading their Opinion...

You aren't even close to knowing what I'm doing. Guess again ...

Is that because you don't know yourself? I mean you ask for evidence, then dismiss it when given, you critique a chain of logic, but fail to state what you disagree with.

So far ... you admit all Katman has done is held and stated his opinion. And now you're comparing it to the Nuremberg trial ... get real fella ...

No, I've said he's promoted his opinion. Bit of a difference. Does the Imam who preaches hatred and destruction of the west bear any responsibility when someone goes out and kills based on the Imam's opinion? Does the KKK Leader who says to "Lynch all the Niggers" bear any responsibility when someone goes out and does that? You know the answer. And whilst you'll duck and point out Katman isn't a major leader - I'll retort that by actively promoting this viewpoint, it's giving legitimacy to something that is both illegitimate and dangerous.

The Nuremberg trial was about the complicity of an individual and their small actions as part of something larger and more grotesque - so it's completely relevant.

I never said you did.

Glad you agree - so if you can just retract all the BS that's predicated on that false equivalence, we can get passed that point.

Opinions and attitudes change. And they cause change. But until those opinions change ... nothing will.

What causes opinions to change in the first place?

"it's so odious, that nothing can be suffered to support it, but positive law. Whatever inconveniences, therefore, may follow from a decision, I cannot say this case is allowed or approved by the law of England; and therefore the black must be discharged."

In the years of smoking in public buildings and transport ... how many (in NZ) contracted or died of cancer .. ??? But it was legal at the time. Do you smoke .. ???

No. And have never smoked Tobacco. Ironically - a Law that was passed to restrict the Liberties of the Individual, in order to protect innocent third parties from harm...

It's almost like there's a principle in there that I referenced....

You accuse ME of dishonesty ... ??? Why don't you actually stop talking/arguing and do something positive (and constructive) to help with your perceived issue ... ???

So, that struck a nerve - prove me wrong then, try and make the argument about the seriousness or lackthereof of Measles without excluding the protection granted by a Vaccinated population.

I can pull up the Angolan stats for you - 1 in 1,000 Children who caught Measles died. Is that dangerous enough to be worth your attention?

My positive input is that every time I see or hear Anti-vax BS to respond, with the relevant facts, to show that the arguments put forward by the likes of Katman are objectively wrong and to put the risk of Measles into the proper perspective.

Katman

21st January 2019, 06:41

If only I'd made exceptions for cases with a pre-existing condition (and a family history of severe adverse reactions would certainly qualify)

If only....

Well that almost sounds like you'd be prepared to treat those people with some sort of empathy and compassion......

.......right up till the time they dare to open their mouths and start bleating about their vaccine injured children.

Then they're just fear-mongering fraudsters, right?

FJRider

21st January 2019, 16:07

So you got nothing then?

No need (in my opinion) to respond to individual claims about an entirely legal practice. Your argument and abuse of those that don't hold your opinion doesn't impress me.

The law (and it's interpretation) is based upon principles and how they are applied

So ... if the law is correctly "interpreted" in these places ... justice will be done ... right .. ?? If not WHY NOT .. ??

Probably because we've yet to have a major outbreak that has resulted in multiple fatalities.

So low risk then .. and higher numbers recorded could be just an anomaly ... it does happen with statistics.

Except, Coercian isn't required. Incitement to violence doesn't involve Coercion ...

Coercion (spelled correctly) is serious ... and incitement to cause violence is pretty serious too. But incitement to hold an opinion not so. I must have missed the post he (I assume Katman) incited violence ... got a link/quote ... ??? Who did he incite violence to ... you ... ?? (I haven't reached that point in the argument yet). But from him ... he has been known to incite homosexuality (invitations to suck his cock) ... although it has been a while since the last invitation. Perhaps you should argue about that (on moral grounds).

Is that because you don't know yourself?

I know myself pretty well. Known myself for 61 years now ... probably my entire life ... But you will figure out what I'm doing .. eventually. If you're smart.

Probably ... NOT then ...

No, I've said he's promoted his opinion. Bit of a difference.

Where did incitement of violence feature then ... ??

The Nuremberg trial was about the complicity of an individual and their small actions as part of something larger and more grotesque - so it's completely relevant.

Your opinion.

Glad you agree - so if you can just retract all the BS that's predicated on that false equivalence, we can get passed that point.

If you agree ... no need to retract anything.

What causes opinions to change in the first place?

Enough people wanting the same thing for the same reasons. It would seem that number has not been reached yet.

No. And have never smoked Tobacco. Ironically - a Law that was passed to restrict the Liberties of the Individual, in order to protect innocent third parties from harm...

Individuals that caused known harm to others around them ... are now restricted in their activity for the greater good (and better health) of society.

It's almost like there's a principle in there that I referenced....

Almost.

prove me wrong then, try and make the argument about the seriousness or lackthereof of Measles without excluding the protection granted by a Vaccinated population.

I have no intention of changing the world ... or anybody's opinions.

I can pull up the Angolan stats for you - 1 in 1,000 Children who caught Measles died. Is that dangerous enough to be worth your attention?

Read the stat's of children in New Zealand that die at the hands of their family members ... and not get charged. That might get your attention.

My positive input is that every time I see or hear Anti-vax BS to respond, with the relevant facts, to show that the arguments put forward by the likes of Katman are objectively wrong and to put the risk of Measles into the proper perspective.

In this regard ... how many opinions have you managed to change ... ???

TheDemonLord

21st January 2019, 17:55

Well that almost sounds like you'd be prepared to treat those people with some sort of empathy and compassion......

.......right up till the time they dare to open their mouths and start bleating about their vaccine injured children.

Then they're just fear-mongering fraudsters, right?

Is it an injury that's actually caused by the Vaccine as in a known side effect? Or is it something they only noticed around the time of the Vaccine that's been repeatedly shown to have no causal link?

Because those 2 things happen to be vastly different.

You see how easy it is to make the Libertarian argument when you don't go down the conspiracy route?

husaberg

21st January 2019, 19:00

Well that almost sounds like you'd be prepared to treat those people with some sort of empathy and compassion......

.......right up till the time they dare to open their mouths and start bleating about their vaccine injured children.

Then they're just fear-mongering fraudsters, right?

While some people would be embarrassed to be shown as being such a blatant hypocrite i doubt it would raise an eyebrow for anyone who has seen your posts for more than a week.

Not what you said. the reality is there is no proof. So show us how all the stuff is not proof, all the witness accounts documents etc are not proof.
I note your own source you have quoted agrees \

Fuck off with your 'witness accounts'.
They do nothing to prove any absolute figure.
.............................

Katman

21st January 2019, 19:00

Is it an injury that's actually caused by the Vaccine as in a known side effect? Or is it something they only noticed around the time of the Vaccine that's been repeatedly shown to have no causal link?

Because those 2 things happen to be vastly different.

You see how easy it is to make the Libertarian argument when you don't go down the conspiracy route?

There have been about 2000 vaccine injury payouts in the US and about 1000 in the UK.

Do those people have the right to have their stories told?

It would certainly make for a lengthy documentary.

TheDemonLord

21st January 2019, 19:16

There have been about 2000 vaccine injury payouts in the US and about 1000 in the UK.

Do those people have the right to have their stories told?

It would certainly make for a lengthy documentary.

How many of those are for Autism?

I've never claimed that there aren't side effects from Vaccines. We know there are. We also know there are policies in place to mitigate said side-effects. We also know that the risk of injury from the vaccine is far smaller than the risk of DEATH from the actual disease.

That is the bit you refuse to account for - some people will have adverse reactions - if you were serious about the Libertarian PoV, you'd argue as to how to mitigate the chance of an adverse reaction - I'd be more than happy to see a pre-vaccination check to see if there were any undiscovered auto-immune disorders or any unknown allergies.

But that's never a point you've argued - cause you don't actually care or give a shit, you just bring up the same debunked Autism Hoax crap and the same 'Big Pharma' nonsense. And that gives away where your real intentions lie.

husaberg

21st January 2019, 19:18

There have been about 2000 vaccine injury payouts in the US and about 1000 in the UK.

Do those people have the right to have their stories told?

It would certainly make for a lengthy documentary.

Two for two you really are on fire tonight, such large amounts of hypocrisy from such a SMALL person

It was proven in court to be a forgery. Are you a bit slow on the uptake.
It is also been discredited by nearly 100% of the worlds historians, but shit Katman don't let that sway your conspiracy theory, it should only fuel it further.:laugh:

No, a judge merely ruled it to be a forgery. (A judge with the surname Meyer, no less).
Are you saying that no judge has ever gotten a ruling wrong - or allowed their own bias to sway their judgement?

Three experts were asked to give evidence at the Berne Trial - one chosen by the judge, one by the Jewish plaintiffs and one by the defendents.
The experts chosen by the judge and plaintiffs claimed the Protocols were fake while the expert chosen by the defendents claimed they were authentic.
The fact that the judge chose to side with his own and the plaintiffs experts does not necessarily constitutes 'proof' - it might simply indicate a personal bias..

Katman

21st January 2019, 19:21

How many of those are for Autism?

I didn't specify autism - I said vaccine injured.

So do those people have the right to have their stories told or would you accuse them too of being wilfully responsible for the deaths of thousands of children?

TheDemonLord

21st January 2019, 19:46

No need (in my opinion) to respond to individual claims about an entirely legal practice. Your argument and abuse of those that don't hold your opinion doesn't impress me.

So Slavery was all okay when it was legal? Nothing Immoral about it? Cause that's the position you are arguing from...

So ... if the law is correctly "interpreted" in these places ... justice will be done ... right .. ?? If not WHY NOT .. ??

The law is a written codification of our deepest set of Principles. Principles we can't always articulate accurately. Principles which may not always translate perfectly from one situation to another.

So low risk then .. and higher numbers recorded could be just an anomaly ... it does happen with statistics.

Low risk? Well, that depends - are you factoring in the rate of Vaccination? You keep making arguments that deliberately divorce this causal factor.

Coercion (spelled correctly) is serious ... and incitement to cause violence is pretty serious too. But incitement to hold an opinion not so. I must have missed the post he (I assume Katman) incited violence ... got a link/quote ... ??? Who did he incite violence to ... you ... ?? (I haven't reached that point in the argument yet). But from him ... he has been known to incite homosexuality (invitations to suck his cock) ... although it has been a while since the last invitation. Perhaps you should argue about that (on moral grounds).

What is the principle behind Incitement to Violence? It's that by holding and espousing an opinion, you encourage other people to take actions that result in Harm to innocent people/the wider community.

I put it to you that promoting an Anti-Vax viewpoint, based on Fraudulent 'studies' meets every single one of those criteria.

See the above post to Katman to show the difference between arguing from an actual Libertarian position and arguing from the Anti-Vax position that masquerades as such.

I know myself pretty well. Known myself for 61 years now ... probably my entire life ... But you will figure out what I'm doing .. eventually. If you're smart.

Probably ... NOT then ...

Well shit - if that's the case why do we need Psychologists and Sociologists... Unless people may not know themselves as well as they think.

Where did incitement of violence feature then ... ??

See above.

If you agree ... no need to retract anything.

Your critique is comparing the actions of Katman to my actions and with a rather notable difference being you agree I've never engaged in promoting the idea that other people Speed - which means your attempt to draw an equivalency between what Katman does and what I do was entirely Fallacious.

Do you retract this?

Enough people wanting the same thing for the same reasons. It would seem that number has not been reached yet.

Sometimes, but not always:

Fiat justitia ruat caelum.

Individuals that caused known harm to others around them ... are now restricted in their activity for the greater good (and better health) of society.

What a brilliant articulation of the argument for Mandatory Vaccination - so you agree with my point then?

Read the stat's of children in New Zealand that die at the hands of their family members ... and not get charged. That might get your attention.

Is it 1 in 1,000?

But if it makes you happy - Domestic Violence in NZ is utterly Shocking - and where it as simple as giving a child 2 jabs to prevent it, you can bet your bike and your house that I'd be in favour of that.

But alas it isn't. It's a subject I've often thought long on - as to why NZ has this unique issue. I suspect there is a geographical component, a socio-cultural component, a substance abuse component, maybe a genetic component and probably a whole load others.

In this regard ... how many opinions have you managed to change ... ???

Of Zealots? None. Of people that have seen the half-truths presented by the Anti-vax crowd and been tempted without hearing the other side? Several.

And so long as it's greater than 1, I'll keep furiously typing rebuttals.

husaberg

21st January 2019, 19:47

There have been about 2000 vaccine injury payouts in the US and about 1000 in the UK.

Do those people have the right to have their stories told?

It would certainly make for a lengthy documentary.

Not really, 2885 were for flu vaccines.
Considering there were over 3,153,876,236 vaccinations carried out under te scope of the VICP what does that add up to............. 1 in a million?
That one in a million rings a bell. is 1 in a million less than 1 in 10,000 still.
I am pretty sure tens of thousands dis esch year of the flu in the USA alone
i am also pretty sure there is no real vaccination scheme as such for the Flu vaccine.
Its also hard to imagine that its mainly kids getting vaccinated for the flu either.

TheDemonLord

21st January 2019, 19:55

I didn't specify autism - I said vaccine injured.

Yet, when I challenged you on this:

But I also believe that we need to get to the bottom of what is causing the massive increase in the number of cases of autism.

You can't let it go.

I told you if you wanted to be taken seriously, to drop all the disproved Autism crap - argue on the known side effects.

So what is it going to be? Are you going to retract all the Anti-Vax MMR and Autism BS you've spouted in the 6 years this thread has been going or are you going to yet again pull a bait and switch?

So do those people have the right to have their stories told or would you accuse them too of being wilfully responsible for the deaths of thousands of children?

Are the stories being over-exaggerated and sensationalized to push an anti-vax, anti 'big pharma' narrative' or are the stories being objectively presented, with the accompanying testimony of qualified medical personal to put the stories into perspective?

How many of those payouts were from the MMR vaccine (which is what we are discussing specifically) and how many were for permanent serious injury? and then what is the risk of injury compared to the number of Doses?

Katman

21st January 2019, 19:59

How many of those payouts were from the MMR vaccine (which is what we are discussing specifically)

Well you might be discussing the MMR vaccine specifically but I'm discussing them in general.

TheDemonLord

21st January 2019, 20:22

Well you might be discussing the MMR vaccine specifically but I'm discussing them in general.

or are you going to yet again pull a bait and switch?

Proof, Pudding.

husaberg

21st January 2019, 20:51

Well you might be discussing the MMR vaccine specifically but I'm discussing them in general.

or are you going to yet again pull a bait and switch?

Proof, Pudding.

He wouln't really want to mention MMR esp so soon after going on about the vaccine compensations

94,815,650 individual dosses 119 of MMR Vaccine administered under VICP yet only 119 claims found worthy out of Compensation out of only 234 claims made.
or 1 in 400,0000 result in a claim of which 1 in about 800,000 were compensated.

it makes you wonder why Katamans mentioned autism or autistic or responded about either over 100 times in this thread.

FJRider

21st January 2019, 21:42

So Slavery was all okay when it was legal? Nothing Immoral about it? Cause that's the position you are arguing from...

Funny how slavery was legal but was outlawed on moral grounds. Now Prostitution is legal but was outlawed on moral grounds ... does this mean public morals are getting better or worse ... ??

The law is a written codification of our deepest set of Principles. Principles we can't always articulate accurately. Principles which may not always translate perfectly from one situation to another.

If you think you have a case ... prove it in court.

Low risk? Well, that depends

If it were a high risk issue ... the law would be changed. But it's low risk and vaccination is optional.

It's called parental choice.

What is the principle behind Incitement to Violence? It's that by holding and espousing an opinion, you encourage other people to take actions that result in Harm to innocent people/the wider community.

You have no idea what opinion I have. I have never stated an actual opinion that I hold. Yet you say I incite violence. Talk about wild accusation ...

I put it to you that promoting an Anti-Vax viewpoint, based on Fraudulent 'studies' meets every single one of those criteria.

I have never promoted any such thing. Your wild accusations are starting to piss me off.

See the above post to Katman to show the difference between arguing from an actual Libertarian position and arguing from the Anti-Vax position that masquerades as such.

I waste enough time reading the dribble and slander you post in reply to my posts.

Well shit - if that's the case why do we need Psychologists and Sociologists... Unless people may not know themselves as well as they think.

You'll have your's on speed dial ...

See above.

See above ...

Your critique is comparing the actions of Katman to my actions and with a rather notable difference being you agree I've never engaged in promoting the idea that other people Speed - which means your attempt to draw an equivalency between what Katman does and what I do was entirely Fallacious.

I never stated you promoted the idea that speed is OK ... But I know you do speed. Therefore you support the idea that it IS ok to speed.

Sometimes, but not always:

But always ... when the shouting gets too loud to ignore. And a Politician wants to get elected.

Fiat justitia ruat caelum

No such thing as Heaven ... just the world as we knew it will change. Not always for the better. But that is how it will be claimed ...

What a brilliant articulation of the argument for Mandatory Vaccination - so you agree with my point then?

Now just prove (in a Court of Law) Who harmed Whom ... and where/when. Simple if the problem is as huge as you claim ...

Is it 1 in 1,000?

Is that the minimum ratio before you take issue with the deaths of children ... ???

But if it makes you happy - Domestic Violence in NZ is utterly Shocking

Domestic violence does not make me happy. I think it irritating you thought it would ... another wild accusation from you.

But alas it isn't. It's a subject I've often thought long on

Stop thinking about it. Save kids in our part of the world.

Of Zealots? None. Of people that have seen the half-truths presented by the Anti-vax crowd and been tempted without hearing the other side? Several.

And so long as it's greater than 1, I'll keep furiously typing rebuttals.

So ... that would be two.

TheDemonLord

21st January 2019, 22:29

Funny how slavery was legal but was outlawed on moral grounds. Now Prostitution is legal but was outlawed on moral grounds ... does this mean public morals are getting better or worse ... ??

The moral has always been the conflict between letting people live the lives they wish to choose and protecting them from harm.

Both of those judgements have the same fundamental underpinnings.

If it were a high risk issue ... the law would be changed. But it's low risk and vaccination is optional.

It's called parental choice.

Again, with that dishonest argument. You can't divorce the risk from the protections against that risk.

You have no idea what opinion I have. I have never stated an actual opinion that I hold. Yet you say I incite violence. Talk about wild accusation ...

Wait - do you think when I used the word 'you' in the context of outlining the principle - that I was referring to you personally? If so, I apologize for the confusion, but I did not mean you specifically.

Since I was referring to an abstract concept, the usage of the word was to be taken also in the abstract sense.

I have never promoted any such thing. Your wild accusations are starting to piss me off.

I never said you did - see above - perhaps a different way of phrasing it: I consider the principles that underpin why incitement to violence is a crime to be equally applicable to publicly spreading anti-vax viewpoints.

I waste enough time reading the dribble and slander you post in reply to my posts.

If it's slander - as you say:

If you think you have a case ... prove it in court.

You'll have your's on speed dial ...

Sounds awfully like you are trivializing Mental Health. Does the epidemic of suicide not warrant you to take issue?

I never stated you promoted the idea that speed is OK ... But I know you do speed. Therefore you support the idea that it IS ok to speed.

Do I? Do I support the idea that it is OK for everyone to speed? Do I support the idea that other people should be encouraged to question the speed limit and the data around crash survivability?

You've got nothing to prove what I believe in regards to Speeding.

It's therefore still a false equivalence, - since I don't actively promote the idea.

But always ... when the shouting gets too loud to ignore. And a Politician wants to get elected.

Then where do you factor Legal Precedent in?

Now just prove (in a Court of Law) Who harmed Whom ... and where/when. Simple if the problem is as huge as you claim ...

Sure - when you present the same data, with the degree of accuracy you expect from me, for the second hand smoke ban.

Is that the minimum ratio before you take issue with the deaths of children ... ???

Not at all, but you're the one trying to make the appeal to bigger problems, I'm just putting things into perspective.

Domestic violence does not make me happy. I think it irritating you thought it would ... another wild accusation from you.

Are you willfully misreading what I'm saying or?? That's the 3rd time this post...

I'm agreeing with you that it's a serious problem (that's what the "If it makes you happy" is in reference to) - hence why it's a subject I've thought about often.

Stop thinking about it. Save kids in our part of the world.

And how would you suggest I accomplish that? The list of well-intentioned knee-jerk governmental policies that ended up exacerbating issues is long and storied.

As a serious question: Do we even know why in NZ, in arguably one of the most beautiful, peaceful and free countries in the world, that we have this issue at a higher rate than anywhere else?

I don't. I've got some ideas, but they are at best ill-formed and fuzzy. An issue of such importance needs action for certain, but it also needs thought - you can't solve a problem if you don't understand it.

Hell - I'd say you can't even understand a problem if you can't define exactly what the problem is - I'm not sure we even have that figured out.

So ... that would be two.

Even if that were true - that would still be reason enough to continue.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 07:16

I'm just putting things into perspective.

A very distorted perspective.

Even if that were true - that would still be reason enough to continue.

Dude, the mere opportunity to argue appears to be reason enough for you to continue.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 07:22

I'd be more than happy to see a pre-vaccination check to see if there were any undiscovered auto-immune disorders or any unknown allergies.

Now there's something we can both agree on.

Have you ever wondered why they haven't bothered to instigate a far more rigorous screening program?

Ocean1

22nd January 2019, 08:19

Have you ever wondered why they haven't bothered to instigate a far more rigorous screening program?

Because cunts like you would be even more bitter and twisted about the cost involved?

Just a thought...

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 09:15

Now there's something we can both agree on.

Have you ever wondered why they haven't bothered to instigate a far more rigorous screening program?

So, if you really cared about what you claim to care about - you'd leave all the debunked crap aside and you would focus on that.

I'd suggest a start of recording any familial history of adverse effects, any populations with a high preponderance of adverse effects and placing them in a high-risk group that alerts the GP/Administering nurse to run a pre-check.

That way, you don't waste time and money in superfluous testing - but still mitigate the risks.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 10:14

So, if you really cared about what you claim to care about - you'd leave all the debunked crap aside and you would focus on that.

Thanks for your concern but I'll focus on what I feel is important.

I'm against mandatory vaccination not only on constitutional grounds but also due to the fact that there are enough concerns about the safety of vaccines to make it morally wrong to force parents to take the gamble.

You can try to call it debunked crap all you like - but I disagree.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 10:16

A very distorted perspective.

If we had a population with a vaccination rate of 0 - that would be the Death Rate. That's not a distortion. If you are critiquing the use of Vaccinations, then you can't cite the low risk of death that is due to the high percentage of vaccinated people to bolster your argument.

Dude, the mere opportunity to argue appears to be reason enough for you to continue.

Only on things I'm interested in.

Same could be said for you...

husaberg

22nd January 2019, 10:24

Thanks for your concern but I'll focus on what I feel is important.

You can try to call it debunked crap all you like - but I disagree.

Odd that you never have once brought up your desire for increased research into the pre-screening to determine susceptibility to reactions like anaphylactic shock before last night.
Since the start of the thread You were only interested in posting baseless allegations and spreading false and misleading information.
Or could it be you have run out of baseless allegations and are sick of looking like an imbecile for continually posting defending them because you believe them.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 12:26

So, if you really cared about what you claim to care about - you'd leave all the debunked crap aside and you would focus on that.

And by the way, have you bothered to read the sworn affidavit of Dr Andrew Zimmerman yet? (Paying particular attention to paragraphs 8, 9 and 10).

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 12:45

And by the way, have you bothered to read the sworn affidavit of Dr Andrew Zimmerman yet? (Paying particular attention to paragraphs 8, 9 and 10).

Would that be the same Dr Andrew Zimmerman who referred to the 'studies' submitted by Wakefield and the Greers as 'Misinformation'?

furthermore IF his premise is to be believed (and a quick skim through his research shows he has a test case of 1 child. One. Uno, Ein Ichi) - that some kids, with certain pre-existing conditions can experience a depletion of their mitochondrial energy reserves, which results in Autism-like symptoms - then we should also take into account his other statements:

He also notes that any infection (including the full blown disease) would also cause the issue, and therefore it was far better to Vaccinate - since the child will encounter pathogens in the critical developmental cycle.

I also note that the court case where he presented his single test case - didn't result in a ruling that there is a link between Vaccines and Autism.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 12:59

Would that be the same Dr Andrew Zimmerman who referred to the 'studies' submitted by Wakefield and the Greers as 'Misinformation'?

furthermore IF his premise is to be believed (and a quick skim through his research shows he has a test case of 1 child. One. Uno, Ein Ichi) - that some kids, with certain pre-existing conditions can experience a depletion of their mitochondrial energy reserves, which results in Autism-like symptoms - then we should also take into account his other statements:

He also notes that any infection (including the full blown disease) would also cause the issue, and therefore it was far better to Vaccinate - since the child will encounter pathogens in the critical developmental cycle.

I also note that the court case where he presented his single test case - didn't result in a ruling that there is a link between Vaccines and Autism.

I'm referring specifically to his claim that some children who have mitochondrial dysfunction could regress into autism because of vaccination.

And guess what, mitochrondrial dysfunction has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Back on page 207 to be exact.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 14:04

I'm referring specifically to his claim that some children who have mitochondrial dysfunction could regress into autism because of vaccination.

And guess what, mitochrondrial dysfunction has been mentioned earlier in this thread. Back on page 207 to be exact.

You're cherry picking.

Not only are you cherry picking that his word is good when it comes to something you agree with, but you're ignoring the part where he refuted other claims you still believe.

but you're also cherry picking his statements - by omitting the part that if true, the regression would be triggered by any exposure to any pathogen and therefore Vaccination was still needed.

Edit:

Also - I think it needs to be pointed out, that this is your classic distraction onto a different point when you've been exposed for the hypocritical statements you make.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 14:05

You're cherry picking.

Whereas you're steadfastly ignoring.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 14:11

Edit:

Also - I think it needs to be pointed out, that this is your classic distraction onto a different point when you've been exposed for the hypocritical statements you make.

Different point?

Did you go back and read the study linked on page 207?

And if you go back a few pages before that you'll see that the discussion was also about polysorbate 80.

husaberg

22nd January 2019, 14:29

Different point?

Did you go back and read the study linked on page 207?

And if you go back a few pages before that you'll see that the discussion was also about polysorbate 80.

You get accused of changing subjects to distract from the total hypocrisy and gross ineptitude of your enlargements so what do you do........
Try and create a further distraction and attempt to change the subject twice in a single post.

Well that almost sounds like you'd be prepared to treat those people with some sort of empathy and compassion......
.......right up till the time they dare to open their mouths and start bleating about their vaccine injured children.
Then they're just fear-mongering fraudsters, right?

YET

Not what you said. the reality is there is no proof. So show us how all the stuff is not proof, all the witness accounts documents etc are not proof.
I note your own source you have quoted agrees \

Fuck off with your 'witness accounts'.
They do nothing to prove any absolute figure.
Then we have.........

There have been about 2000 vaccine injury payouts in the US and about 1000 in the UK.
Do those people have the right to have their stories told?

YET

It was proven in court to be a forgery. Are you a bit slow on the uptake.
It is also been discredited by nearly 100% of the worlds historians

Three experts were asked to give evidence at the Berne Trial - one chosen by the judge, one by the Jewish plaintiffs and one by the defendents.
The experts chosen by the judge and plaintiffs claimed the Protocols were fake while the expert chosen by the defendents claimed they were authentic.
The fact that the judge chose to side with his own and the plaintiffs experts does not necessarily constitutes 'proof' - it might simply indicate a personal bias..

No, a judge merely ruled it to be a forgery. (A judge with the surname Meyer, no less).
Are you saying that no judge has ever gotten a ruling wrong - or allowed their own bias to sway their judgement?

So when i was a 1 of 1c statement that says he might have found something in one child that might mean something that the court considered not worthy to consider even though its made by a jewish doctor its gospel yet if its a court ruling made with overwhelming supporting evidence you don't like its a jewish Conspiracy seems rather hypocritical.

And by the way, have you bothered to read the sworn affidavit of Dr Andrew Zimmerman yet? (Paying particular attention to paragraphs 8, 9 and 10).

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 15:42

Whereas you're steadfastly ignoring.

Nope, IF his study is true - and the experimental data from the large scale study shows a correlation of only 7.3% between the 2 conditions (so that's a pretty big IF) - you still have to contend with the fact that ANY pathogen could trigger it - therefore may aswell vaccinate.

Different point?

Did you go back and read the study linked on page 207?

And if you go back a few pages before that you'll see that the discussion was also about polysorbate 80.

So you're tangentially referencing something 100 pages ago - and you wonder why I'm saying you are changing the point....

Katman

22nd January 2019, 16:04

Nope, IF his study is true - and the experimental data from the large scale study shows a correlation of only 7.3% between the 2 conditions (so that's a pretty big IF) - you still have to contend with the fact that ANY pathogen could trigger it - therefore may aswell vaccinate.

So you're tangentially referencing something 100 pages ago - and you wonder why I'm saying you are changing the point....

Dude, you're welcome to continue to maintain that people "may as well vaccinate".

It doesn't change the fact that it is becoming increasingly apparent that vaccines may well contribute to the prevalence of autism.

Polysorbate 80, aluminium, mitochondria, autism, vaccines, big pharma etc. have all been part of that discussion.

It's not my problem that you're struggling to keep up.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 16:25

Dude, you're welcome to continue to maintain that people "may as well vaccinate".

It doesn't change the fact that it is becoming increasingly apparent that vaccines may well contribute to the prevalence of autism.

Polysorbate 80, mitochondria, autism, vaccines, big pharma etc. have all been part of that discussion.

It's not my problem that you're struggling to keep up.

That's not what I maintain....

Perhaps you should read Dr Andrew Zimmerman's Statements in full...

Edit - as for the second to last sentence - it sounds like a strategy of "Throw enough shit at the wall..."...

Katman

22nd January 2019, 16:30

That's not what I maintain....

They were your exact words.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 16:52

Edit - as for the second to last sentence - it sounds like a strategy of "Throw enough shit at the wall..."...

Considering the subject matter, that's probably one of your better analogies.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 17:40

They were your exact words.

Did you miss the part where I referenced Dr Andrew Zimmerman words twice?

Or are you just ignoring (again) the bits you don't like?

Katman

22nd January 2019, 17:43

Nope, IF his study is true - and the experimental data from the large scale study shows a correlation of only 7.3% between the 2 conditions (so that's a pretty big IF)

So how does that compare to your 1 in 1000?

husaberg

22nd January 2019, 18:00

Well it's a whole lot bigger than your 1 in 1000.

The correlation between autism and brown eyes would be far higher about 5 times
Having blue eyes would also be higher
As is the correlation between being male.
The rate of Autism and being called Brian is about the same.
Speaking of which how are you going to take into account that women receive far more vaccinations yet are only 25% as likely to be diagnosed with Autism.

Katman

22nd January 2019, 18:15

Speaking of which how are you going to take into account that women receive far more vaccinations yet are only 25% as likely to be diagnosed with Autism.

'Far more vaccinations'?

Do female children really receive 'far more vaccinations'?

husaberg

22nd January 2019, 18:36

'Far more vaccinations'?

Do female children really receive 'far more vaccinations'?
If you were a parent you might know the answer to that. but we already established you don't know much and also you are not a parent so the correlation of this study using you as the only example is 100%.

Males are 4 x more less likely if not higher to be diagnosed with autism so why is not even or even close to even if its caused by Vaccination then?

Maybe if you were to look at environmental factors you might find some studies indicate a high correlation with maternal smoking and Autism.

In mice, developmental nicotine exposure in utero and up to postnatal day 21 significantly affected neuronal dendritic morphology and behavior in a passive avoidance paradigm. Human studies have shown that socioeconomic status (SES) is significantly associated with ASD13, and that women with lower SES have a higher tendency to smoke during pregnancy. Additionally, smoking is associated with adverse birth outcomes, such as fetal growth restriction and low birth weight15, which are in turn associated with increased risk of ASD
340520

Katman

22nd January 2019, 18:47

If you were a parent you might know the answer to that. but we already established you don't know much and also you are not a parent so the correlation of this study using you as the only example is 100%.

Males are 4 x more less likely if not higher to be diagnosed with autism so why is not even or even close to even if its caused by Vaccination then?

So do female children really receive 'far more vaccinations'?

husaberg

22nd January 2019, 18:51

So do female children really receive 'far more vaccinations'?
In NZ and the rest of the developed world yes you see they are also vaccinated for Diseases men dont get. they also live longer and are 2-3 times more likely to visit a doctor.
They also generally get a vaccination during pregnancy.
So why is it Male children are 4 times more likely to be diagnosed as having Autism if as you keep trying to spread that its Vaccinations.
It seems like you might be not quite understanding the disorder at all.
Plus you are ignoring all the stuff like the mother smoking exposure to drugs etc etc
Family history of Autism etc etc

Katman

22nd January 2019, 18:55

In NZ and the rest of the developed world yes you see they are also vaccinated for Diseases men dont get.

Really?

Have you got anything that would back that claim up?

husaberg

22nd January 2019, 19:23

Really?

Have you got anything that would back that claim up?

NZ only this year just started vaccinating males for HPV in this last year.http://www.arphs.health.nz/public-health-topics/immunisation/
Also men don't tend to get pregnant thus so they don't get Boostrix vaccination or the additional flu vaccination they generally get at 3/4 gestation.http://www.arphs.health.nz/public-health-topics/immunisation/
Males never used to get the Rubella booster at 11-13 that stopped when we got the MMR vaccine.http://www.arphs.health.nz/public-health-topics/immunisation/
Far more likely to get a Flu Vaccine 29 VS 23%
Far more likely to live longer 83.2 VS 79.5
There is more of them than males. 1% MORE
Women are also far more likely to visit a doctor. 7 TIMES A YEAR VS 4.5

I await you not being able to refute any of these easily checked simple facts. thats why you will do the normal katman cop out.
Funny thing is the very fact you don't agree with it makes it 99% likely to be 100% true even without the fact they are simple easily checked facts.

But that's just your stalling tactics so why is it you never mention gestational smoking as being a factor or the fact 4 times more males are diagnosed with autism or the family history for neurological disorders.

Or better still what about cannabis use in pregnancy you are always banging on pot does no harm and how it should be legal but wait its one of the Autism risk factors you dont talk about.
340524
Or what about the real scientifically tested risk factors
340523

Which brings us back to your general hypocritical statements any comments you wish to make or are you happy for your own hypocritical statements to speak for themselves.

Well that almost sounds like you'd be prepared to treat those people with some sort of empathy and compassion......
.......right up till the time they dare to open their mouths and start bleating about their vaccine injured children.
Then they're just fear-mongering fraudsters, right?

YET

Not what you said. the reality is there is no proof. So show us how all the stuff is not proof, all the witness accounts documents etc are not proof.
I note your own source you have quoted agrees \

Fuck off with your 'witness accounts'.
They do nothing to prove any absolute figure.
Then we have.........

There have been about 2000 vaccine injury payouts in the US and about 1000 in the UK.
Do those people have the right to have their stories told? Funny 2885 of those are for Flu Vaccine out of Billions of vaccinations

YET

It was proven in court to be a forgery. Are you a bit slow on the uptake.
It is also been discredited by nearly 100% of the worlds historians

Three experts were asked to give evidence at the Berne Trial - one chosen by the judge, one by the Jewish plaintiffs and one by the defendents.
The experts chosen by the judge and plaintiffs claimed the Protocols were fake while the expert chosen by the defendents claimed they were authentic.
The fact that the judge chose to side with his own and the plaintiffs experts does not necessarily constitutes 'proof' - it might simply indicate a personal bias..

So the statement that says he might have found something in one child that might mean something that the court considered not worthy to consider even though its made by a jewish doctor its gospel to you to take a statement and use it out of context.
Yet if its a court ruling made with overwhelming supporting evidence you don't like its a jewish Conspiracy seems rather hypocritical.

No, a judge merely ruled it to be a forgery. (A judge with the surname Meyer, no less).
Are you saying that no judge has ever gotten a ruling wrong - or allowed their own bias to sway their judgement?

And by the way, have you bothered to read the sworn affidavit of Dr Andrew Zimmerman yet? (Paying particular attention to paragraphs 8, 9 and 10).

Katman

22nd January 2019, 19:26

NZ only this year just started vaccinating males for HPV in this last year.
Also men don't tend to get pregnant thus so they don't get Boostrix vaccination or the additional flu vaccination thry generally get at 3/4 gestation.
Males never used to get the Rubella booster at 11-13 that stopped when we got the MMR vaccine.
Far more likely to get a Flu Vaccine
Far more likely to live longer
Women are also far more likely to visit a doctor.

Right, so it was just you talking shit again.

TheDemonLord

22nd January 2019, 22:22

So how does that compare to your 1 in 1000?

Putting aside your woeful bastardization of different Statistical concepts:

7.3% chance of Autism (claimed), with protection against
vs
0.1% chance of Death
5% chance of serious medical complications with life-long effects
with zero benefits.

Remembering - if the research is true, then any pathogen can cause Autism, so given the proclivities of children to contract various ailments - it's pretty much guaranteed.

So what would you rather - Risk of Autism, with no risk of Death or a guarantee of Autism with a risk of Death.

Katman

23rd January 2019, 06:35

A long, but very interesting, read.

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/clear-legal-basis-vaccines-cause-autism

husaberg

23rd January 2019, 11:16

Putting aside your woeful bastardization of different Statistical concepts:

7.3% chance of Autism (claimed), with protection against
vs
0.1% chance of Death
5% chance of serious medical complications with life-long effects
with zero benefits.

Remembering - if the research is true, then any pathogen can cause Autism, so given the proclivities of children to contract various ailments - it's pretty much guaranteed.

So what would you rather - Risk of Autism, with no risk of Death or a guarantee of Autism with a risk of Death.

I think you have calculated that one a bit wrong if it the initial 0.62% THAT HAVE ASD HE WAS SAYING its 7% HE THOUGHT MAY OR COULD HAVE CAME FROM VACCINATION. OR .O7%

Worldwide vaccination cover runs at 85%
The worldwide percentage of people diagnosed with Autism is 0.062% with a 4.3:1 male female ratio
SO 42% OF THE WORLDS POPULATION ARE FEMALES WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED YET ONLY 17% OF THOSE 0.62% ARE ARE FEMALES WITH ASD or 0.10%
YET 42% OF THE POPULATION ARE MALES WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, YET 83% OF THE THOSE .62% ARE MALES WITH ASD. OR 0.51%
AS ITS CLEARLY NOT AN EVEN SPLIT IT SEEMS UNLIKELY TO BE TRUELY ANYTHING TO DO WITH VACCINES.
Which begs the quest if the dude that wrote the paper involving only one subject how the heck would he get a 7% result. Sounds more like a margin or error for a negative result.

Old Katspam said he was concerned out Autism ,funny how he wont talk about Cannabis consumption and Autism or even smoking in pregnancy and Autism.
Anyone would think hes fine as long as he gets his legal toke hes been stirring for for years and hes prepared to overlook the Autism connection when it comes to the recreational drugs.

Katman

23rd January 2019, 17:23

OLD Katspam said he was concerned out Autism funny he wont talk about Cannabis consumption and Autism or even smoking in pregnancy and Autism.
Anyone would think hes fine as long as he gets his legal toke hes been stiring for for years and hes prepared to overlook the Autism connection when it comes to the recreational drugs.

If drug use by a pregnant mother is a factor it usually manifests in a child who shows compromised health and retarded development from birth.

It doesn't explain the incidence of children who are developing normally but show almost immediate regression following vaccination.

It sounds like another one of your bullshit 'girls receive far more vaccines than boys' claims.

(And your 'pregnant mothers receive flu vaccines' observation does nothing to discount the possibility that the flu vaccine could adversely affect the unborn child).

husaberg

23rd January 2019, 18:15

If drug use by a pregnant mother is a factor it usually manifests in a child who shows compromised health and retarded development from birth.

It doesn't explain the incidence of children who are developing normally but show almost immediate regression following vaccination.

It sounds like another one of your bullshit 'girls receive far more vaccines than boys' claims.

(And your 'pregnant mothers receive flu vaccines' observation does nothing to discount the possibility that the flu vaccine could adversely affect the unborn child).
Sounds like you know buggar all about ASD maybe you should do a bit of research about the receptors and the effects of Cannabis use in Gestation.
The evidence of the effects of Cannabis is far clearer than anything you posted
Children that were developing normally until given a vaccination is a Wakefeild derived fallacy.
https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/676354/autism-rate-among-children-select-countries-worldwide.jpg
Explain how its to do with Vaccine when Japans use is low yet they have the highest rates of ASD
Also why
The worldwide percentage of people diagnosed with Autism is 0.062% with a 4.3:1 male female ratio
SO 42% OF THE WORLDS POPULATION ARE FEMALES WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED YET ONLY 17% OF THOSE 0.62% ARE ARE FEMALES WITH ASD or 0.10%
YET 42% OF THE POPULATION ARE MALES WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, YET 83% OF THE THOSE .62% ARE MALES WITH ASD. OR 0.51%
AS ITS CLEARLY NOT AN EVEN SPLIT IT SEEMS UNLIKELY TO BE TRUELY ANYTHING TO DO WITH VACCINES.
Girls do receive more vaccinations in NZ i showed you that i showed when and why.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/159661-Thinking-of-getting-vaccinated?p=1131122896#post1131122896
You just looked like a fool for not knowing it,So you try and pretent it was never backed up. much like you going on about the court settlements you inferered were measles vaccine injury which were 85% flu vaccine.
I also showed why your latest figures simply don't stack up.

Katman

23rd January 2019, 18:22

Explain how its to do with Vaccine when Japans use is low yet they have the highest rates of ASD

Maybe Japanese people have a higher genetic susceptibility to mitochondrial dysfunction.

husaberg

23rd January 2019, 19:16

Maybe Japanese people have a higher genetic susceptibility to mitochondrial dysfunction.

only the misses the fact that the majority of Autism is genetically transferred.
Also as your math is rather yokel like
you might want to do the maths to support it.
The worldwide percentage of people diagnosed with Autism is 0.062% with a 4.3:1 male female ratio
SO 42% OF THE WORLDS POPULATION ARE FEMALES WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED YET ONLY 17% OF THOSE 0.62% ARE ARE FEMALES WITH ASD or 0.10%
YET 42% OF THE POPULATION ARE MALES WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, YET 83% OF THE THOSE .62% ARE MALES WITH ASD. OR 0.51%

Maybe you could also post why it is if the mum smokes Dope and cigarettes during pregnancy she is twice as likely to have an autistic child. than if she just smoke cigarettes.
Also why The Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) say there is “growing evidence” that people with serious mental illnesses, like depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis.
In addition they say using the drug regularly appears to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia.
The RCP also maintains that there is a “clear link” to cannabis use and later mental health issues where someone has a genetic vulnerability.
But wait theres more
Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies that use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.

Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.
https://www.medicaldaily.com/marijuana-usage-during-pregnancy-cannabinoids-can-cause-development-disorders-399684
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ezje5z/cannabis-use-can-elicit-autistic-like-behavior
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/increased-autism-incidence-is-there-a-single-cause-2375-4494-1000273.php?aid=68552

scumdog

23rd January 2019, 19:27

Maybe Japanese people have a higher genetic susceptibility to mitochondrial dysfunction.

Maybe?

That doesn't sound very scientific or factual...:rolleyes:

husaberg

23rd January 2019, 19:34

Maybe?

That doesn't sound very scientific or factual...:rolleyes:

Took some finding still true today.

Katman 'evidence' = vague generalisations and obscure physical estimates, often gleaned from agenda-focused internet sites.
Some people would call it gossip. But I'm not that nasty

What he was doing there was running with a maybe based on a a study of one (yes one person) that maybe said a disease might have been caused by exposure to a disease or maybe an antigen in a tiny percent of cases they apply it only to one sex somewhere where they have 2.5 times the rate of autism but a small rate of vaccination.
He goes on about autism using all sorts of made up crap, i mention dope he goes all defensive refuses to consider it, Yet he goes on about all this other crap hat thas no links.

Scubbo

23rd January 2019, 19:43

my little champ just got 4 vaccines today, pretty brutal for the 15 month old --- 4 in total, 2 at a time in either limb by 2 nurses, poor bastard -- like a pin cushion

i've seen polio and encephalitis/meningitis damage in extended family and friends to bet on a peer scrutinized and highest quality product to protect against such things as best as possible. was/is still very common in places without vaccines, modern medicine is great people...

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2019, 20:21

A long, but very interesting, read.

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/clear-legal-basis-vaccines-cause-autism

The most interesting thing about that Read is when you get to the actual court report - there are a rather large amount of vague terms 'Might', 'could', 'plausible'... and whilst I'm familiar with the concept of a test case - pinning an entire world view on a single vague case - tsk tsk.

And perhaps the biggest elephant in that piece is the word 'Regression' - you can only regress to something that was pre-existing. So the charge that a Vaccine caused ASD is false, if the case is to be believed at face value:

Vaccination aggravated a pre-existing condition.
Any exposure to any pathogen would have also aggravated said pre-existing condition.

Now - to be fair to you, if someone wanted to do a large scale study to further examine this issue - I'd be 100% for it.

However - given that it doesn't matter if it's a Vaccine or the Real thing that will cause a regression - it's better to be Vaccinated with ASD and be protected from a fatal disease than not be vaccinated with ASD and not be protected from a Fatal Disease.

Because if you think a child can go through the formative years without getting the Sniffles, Vom-Bombs, coughs, Poonamis etc. etc. Then I've got a great deal on the sale of the Auckland Sky Tower for you...

Katman

23rd January 2019, 20:32

What he was doing there was running with a maybe based on a a study of one yes one person that maybe said a diasese might have been caused by exposure to a disease or maybe an antigen in a tiny percent of cases they apply it only to one sex somewhere where they have 2.5 times the rate of autism but a small rate of vaccination.

Is that even English?

Katman

23rd January 2019, 20:36

Now - to be fair to you, if someone wanted to do a large scale study to further examine this issue - I'd be 100% for it.

I don't think you would.

In fact, I think your fear of being proven wrong is even greater than your fear of measles or unvaccinated people.

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2019, 21:00

I don't think you would.

In fact, I think your fear of being proven wrong is greater than your fear of measles or unvaccinated people.

In numerous debates (such as Monsantano and Glycol etc.) I've always advocated for proper science to be done.

What you've got at the moment isn't anything even approaching proper science.

You've got a population wide scenario that refutes your underlying premise (MMR > Autism). A point which you steadfastly refuse to accept or address - funny that.

You've got a theory which firstly needs far more research done - because they can't seem to decide whether the rate of this condition amongst people with ASD is ~7% or ~80% (bit of a difference).

Then you've got to factor in that IF this is a causal factor, then ANY pathogen can aggravate the underlying pre-existing condition, not just attenuated vaccines - which makes the whole exercise a moot point, since children at that age WILL encounter pathogens.

When that is factored in, IF this research is accurate (a single 'possible', 'maybe', 'could' case mind) then it doesn't actually provide any reason not to vaccinate. Since any pathogen can trigger it, and exposure to pathogen is a 1 in 1 chance, may as well vaccinate and be protected from serious injury and death than not vaccinate.

Remembering - that was the conclusion of the Dr you cited - funny how you ignore that part and the parts where he ridiculed Wakefield and Greer - would you like some cream with all those Cherries you are picking?

As for Fear of Measles or Unvaccinated people - it's not Fear, it's pointing out the realities of a highly virulent, potentially fatal disease that with a proper vaccination schedule can have the fatality rate reduced to 0 and stay at 0 for over a Decade. When people stop vaccinating, children start dying - it's as simple as that.

Katman

23rd January 2019, 21:10

As for Fear of Measles or Unvaccinated people - it's not Fear, it's pointing out the realities of a highly virulent, potentially fatal disease that with a proper vaccination schedule can have the fatality rate reduced to 0 and stay at 0 for over a Decade. When people stop vaccinating, children start dying - it's as simple as that.

And just to further rot your socks, have you noticed the thread view count?

I found myself wondering whether it was just you, me and the Berk throwing shit at each other so I took note of the number.

The thread has had over 3000 views in just under a week.

So while we don't know the actual opinion of those shy guests that appear at the bottom of the page it certainly appears that the importance of the topic has a far greater scope than just us three.

Katman

23rd January 2019, 21:20

Maybe?

That doesn't sound very scientific or factual...:rolleyes:

I've never claimed to be a geneticist.

I'm just exercising my brain.

You should try it some time.

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2019, 21:26

And just to further rot your socks, have you noticed the thread view count?

I found myself wondering whether it was just you, me and the Berk throwing shit at each other so I took note of the number.

The thread has had over 3000 views in just under a week.

So while we don't know the actual opinion of those shy guests that appear at the bottom of the page it certainly appears that the importance of the topic has a far greater scope than just us three.

I've never noticed the thread view count - I'm not the kind of person that needs that sort of psychological validation...

Katman

23rd January 2019, 21:31

I've never noticed the thread view count - I'm not the kind of person that needs that sort of psychological validation...

You should probably start with a psychological evaluation.

Wait, that's right - you've been there already, haven't you?

TheDemonLord

23rd January 2019, 23:07

You should probably start with a psychological evaluation.

Wait, that's right - you've been there already, haven't you?

Nope.

Any more unfounded bullshit about me you'd like to sling out?

Katman

24th January 2019, 06:15

Nope.

Really? Did you diagnose your 'condition' yourself, did you?

husaberg

24th January 2019, 06:45

I've never claimed to be a geneticist.

I'm just exercising my brain.
.

You often claim to know more than scientists doctors and medical researchers, that not exercise, That's your narcissism completely overstepping your complete lack of ability.
But seeing as you claimed to be interested in Autism and you mention it practically every page, plus your keen interest in cannabis It's rather odd that you don't want to talk about how cannabis might have a role in causing Autism.
Its like you keep trying to change the subject away from it.

Maybe you could also post why it is if the mum smokes Dope and cigarettes during pregnancy she is twice as likely to have an autistic child. than if she just smoke cigarettes.
Also why The Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) say there is “growing evidence” that people with serious mental illnesses, like depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis.
In addition they say using the drug regularly appears to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia.
The RCP also maintains that there is a “clear link” to cannabis use and later mental health issues where someone has a genetic vulnerability.
But wait theres more
Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies that use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.

Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.
https://www.medicaldaily.com/marijuana-usage-during-pregnancy-cannabinoids-can-cause-development-disorders-399684
https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/ezje5z/cannabis-use-can-elicit-autistic-like-behavior
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/increased-autism-incidence-is-there-a-single-cause-2375-4494-1000273.php?aid=68552

Katman

24th January 2019, 07:50

Its like you keep trying to change the subject away from it.

Go back and read post #4627 again - carefully this time.

(Sound out the words if it helps).

husaberg

24th January 2019, 08:54

Go back and read post #4627 again - carefully this time.

(Sound out the words if it helps).

If drug use by a pregnant mother is a factor it usually manifests in a child who shows compromised health and retarded development from birth.

It doesn't explain the incidence of children who are developing normally but show almost immediate regression following vaccination.

It sounds like another one of your bullshit 'girls receive far more vaccines than boys' claims.

(And your 'pregnant mothers receive flu vaccines' observation does nothing to discount the possibility that the flu vaccine could adversely affect the unborn child).

Lets see i did answer all of what you said but seeing as you think you know better here is a doctors opinion
But first children with ASD are not crack babies or premature babbies they suffer a complex not well understood neuological issue that doent allow them to disseminate complex feelings or emotions or display or interact with others in a socially acceptable manner.
None of these are going to be easy to diagnoses as a two year old if you had children you would understand that.

At present, autism can’t be reliably diagnosed until around 2 years of age. However, parents often notice symptoms before then. In fact, analysis of videotapes from children’s first-birthday parties shows that signs of autism are already present for many children at that age, even when parents don’t become concerned until months or years later.
Is it possible that autism starts even earlier? Research tells us “yes.”
In most medical conditions, the underlying processes are triggered before their signs and symptoms become obvious. Consider arthritis. The joints are breaking down and inflammation is setting in years before the aches and pains appear. In dyslexia (reading disability), the symptoms aren’t obvious until a child starts learning how to read. But the symptoms are rooted in brain differences that are present much earlier in development.

A similar chain of events occurs in autism. We know that toxic exposures during pregnancy and complications associated with delivery can disrupt brain processes before birth and shortly afterwards. Mutations in the genes associated with autism can affect how the brain develops and functions, starting well before birth.
Even though the outward symptoms of autism may not be apparent immediately after birth, the underlying brain differences are accumulating. Sometimes the brain can compensate to make up for the disrupted processes. Eventually though, if the disruption was sufficiently severe, the compensatory processes are no longer enough, and symptoms emerge.
This may likewise explain many cases of autistic regression, in which a young child seems to be developing normally, only to lose abilities, or regress, into autism. Perhaps the initial disruption in brain development continued worsening. Or perhaps the compensatory processes couldn’t keep up.
Given how complex the brain is, it can be very difficult to correct differences in brain development and function that start so early in life. This is why treatment for autism needs to be so intensive, and why early diagnosis and treatment are so important.
developmental-behavioral pediatrician Paul Wang, Senior vice president for medical research.

Understand the Changeable First Year
As for autism, studies demonstrate that behavioral signs can begin to emerge as early as 6 to 12 months. However, most professionals who specialize in diagnosing the disorder won’t attempt to make a definite diagnosis until 18 months. This is because autism symptoms can continue to emerge – or fade away – until around 24 months. At that time, we say that an autism diagnosis tends to become “stable.”

To illustrate what I mean, consider the example of a toddler who is meeting all his or her developmental milestones at 18 months, but then begins to lose skills, or “regress.” In other words, autism can’t be ruled out at 18 months. Conversely some babies show early signs and delays, but than catch up with their peers by 24 months.

Recognize the Range
That said, some children can be diagnosed earlier than 24 months. I once saw a 14-month-old boy who wasn’t babbling, making eye contact or engaging in social games. He played only in a highly repetitive fashion. By the time he was 18 months old, his autism diagnosis was very clear, and he responded well to early intervention.

It’s also important to remember that many high-functioning children with autism aren’t diagnosed until they enter school and start struggling socially.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/expert-opinion/how-early-can-autism-be-diagnosed
Lauren Elder, PhD, Autism Speaks former assistant director of dissemination science

Autism represents an unusual pattern of development beginning in infancy or the toddler years and defined by deficits in 3 areas: reciprocal social interaction, communication, and restricted and repetitive behaviors.1,2 While parents typically report concerns in the first year of life,3 many children do not receive diagnoses until much later. Several studies have suggested that diagnoses of autism made at age 2 years are stable through age 3 years,4-7 and diagnoses made by age 5 years are stable up to late adolescence.8 A recent study reported relatively good diagnostic stability but limited continuity in symptom severity to age 7 years for children given autism diagnoses at age 2 years.9

Several intervention projects reported diagnostic changes and extraordinary levels of improvement in a substantial minority of young children with autism.10,11 Other reports found little diagnostic change and fewer marked improvements.12,13 Possible explanations for these conflicting results are diagnostic instability or the lack of age-appropriate diagnostic criteria for very young children. In addition, epidemiological,14 genetic,15 and diagnostic studies16 have extended the conceptualization of autism to include a broader spectrum of disorders that range from autism to potentially milder forms of social deficits, including pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS),17,18 atypical autism, and Asperger syndrome.19,20 Recently, investigators have begun to ask about the stability for the broader autism spectrum disorder (ASD) as well as for more narrowly defined autism.21

High stability has been found for clinical diagnoses between ages 2 and 3 years when health care professionals interpreted standard criteria for autism.
Catherine Lord, PhD; Susan Risi, PhD; Pamela S. DiLavore, PhD; et al
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/209669

Cannabis is strongly linked to autism whether you like it or not.
Your unwillingness to admit that is hilarious, your unwillingness to discuss it further proves you are not interested in Autism, Youre only interests revolve around trolling about vaccines.

So why does the Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) say there is “growing evidence” that people with serious mental illnesses, like depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis.
In addition they say using the drug regularly appears to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia.
The RCP also maintains that there is a “clear link” to cannabis use and later mental health issues where someone has a genetic vulnerability.
But wait theres more
Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies that use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.

Autistic disorders (ADs) are heterogeneous neurodevelopmental disorders arised by the interaction of genes and environmental factors. Dysfunctions in social interaction and communication skills, repetitive and stereotypic verbal and non-verbal behaviours are common features of ADs. There are no defined mechanisms of pathogenesis, rendering curative therapy very difficult. Indeed, the treatments for autism presently available can be divided into behavioural, nutritional and medical approaches, although no defined standard approach exists. Autistic children display immune system dysregulation and show an altered immune response of peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs). In this study, we investigated the involvement of cannabinoid system in PBMCs from autistic children compared to age-matched normal healthy developing controls (age ranging 3-9 years; mean age: 6.06 ± 1.52 vs. 6.14 ± 1.39 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). The mRNA level for cannabinoid receptor type 2 (CB2) was significantly increased in AD-PBMCs as compared to healthy subjects (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 0.34 ± 0.03 vs. 0.23 ± 0.02 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively), whereas CB1 and fatty acid amide hydrolase mRNA levels were unchanged. mRNA levels of N-acylphosphatidylethanolamine-hydrolyzing phospholipase D gene were slightly decreased. Protein levels of CB-2 were also significantly increased in autistic children (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 33.5 ± 1.32 vs. 6.70 ± 1.25 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). Our data indicate CB2 receptor as potential therapeutic target for the pharmacological management of the autism care.

Children exposed in utero to cannabis present permanent neurobehavioral and cognitive impairments. Psychoactive constituents from Cannabis spp., particularly Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), bind to cannabinoid receptors in the fetal brain. However, it is unknown whether THC can trigger a cannabinoid receptor-driven molecular cascade to disrupt neuronal specification. Here, we show that repeated THC exposure disrupts endocannabinoid signaling, particularly the temporal dynamics of CB1 cannabinoid receptor, to rewire the fetal cortical circuitry. By interrogating the THC-sensitive neuronal proteome we identify Superior Cervical Ganglion 10 (SCG10)/stathmin-2, a microtubule-binding protein in axons, as a substrate of altered neuronal connectivity. We find SCG10 mRNA and protein reduced in the hippocampus of midgestational human cannabis-exposed fetuses, defining SCG10 as the first cannabis-driven molecular effector in the developing cerebrum. CB1 cannabinoid receptor activation recruits c-Jun N-terminal kinases to phosphorylate SCG10, promoting its rapid degradation in situ in motile axons and microtubule stabilization. Thus, THC enables ectopic formation of filopodia and alters axon morphology. These data highlight the maintenance of cytoskeletal dynamics as a molecular target for cannabis, whose imbalance can limit the computational power of neuronal circuitries in affected offspring.

Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.

Chronic cannabis exposure can lead to cerebellar dysfunction in humans, but the neurobiological mechanisms involved remain incompletely understood. Here, we found that in mice, subchronic administration of the psychoactive component of cannabis, delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), activated cerebellar microglia and increased the expression of neuroinflammatory markers, including IL-1β. This neuroinflammatory phenotype correlated with deficits in cerebellar conditioned learning and fine motor coordination. The neuroinflammatory phenotype was readily detectable in the cerebellum of mice with global loss of the CB1 cannabinoid receptor (CB1R, Cb1(-/-) mice) and in mice lacking CB1R in the cerebellar parallel fibers, suggesting that CB1R downregulation in the cerebellar molecular layer plays a key role in THC-induced cerebellar deficits. Expression of CB2 cannabinoid receptor (CB2R) and Il1b mRNA was increased under neuroinflammatory conditions in activated CD11b-positive microglial cells. Furthermore, administration of the immunosuppressant minocycline or an inhibitor of IL-1β receptor signaling prevented the deficits in cerebellar function in Cb1(-/-) and THC-withdrawn mice. Our results suggest that cerebellar microglial activation plays a crucial role in the cerebellar deficits induced by repeated cannabis exposure.

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/increased-autism-incidence-is-there-a-single-cause-2375-4494-1000273.php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23934130
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc....php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK333029/

Katman

24th January 2019, 09:25

Your unwillingness to admit that is hilarious, your unwillingness to discuss it further proves you are not interested in Autism, Youre only interests revolve around trolling about vaccines.

And you have the gall to accuse me of changing the subject?

husaberg

24th January 2019, 09:51

And you have the gall to accuse me of changing the subject?
You are trying to again.

Go back and read post #4627 again - carefully this time.

(Sound out the words if it helps).

If drug use by a pregnant mother is a factor it usually manifests in a child who shows compromised health and retarded development from birth.

It doesn't explain the incidence of children who are developing normally but show almost immediate regression following vaccination.

It sounds like another one of your bullshit 'girls receive far more vaccines than boys' claims.

(And your 'pregnant mothers receive flu vaccines' observation does nothing to discount the possibility that the flu vaccine could adversely affect the unborn child).

Lets see i did answer all of what you said but seeing as you think you know better here is a doctors opinion
But first children with ASD are not crack babies or premature babbies they suffer a complex not well understood neuological issue that doent allow them to disseminate complex feelings or emotions or display or interact with others in a socially acceptable manner.
None of these are going to be easy to diagnoses as a two year old if you had children you would understand that.

At present, autism can’t be reliably diagnosed until around 2 years of age. However, parents often notice symptoms before then. In fact, analysis of videotapes from children’s first-birthday parties shows that signs of autism are already present for many children at that age, even when parents don’t become concerned until months or years later.
Is it possible that autism starts even earlier? Research tells us “yes.”
In most medical conditions, the underlying processes are triggered before their signs and symptoms become obvious. Consider arthritis. The joints are breaking down and inflammation is setting in years before the aches and pains appear. In dyslexia (reading disability), the symptoms aren’t obvious until a child starts learning how to read. But the symptoms are rooted in brain differences that are present much earlier in development.

A similar chain of events occurs in autism. We know that toxic exposures during pregnancy and complications associated with delivery can disrupt brain processes before birth and shortly afterwards. Mutations in the genes associated with autism can affect how the brain develops and functions, starting well before birth.
Even though the outward symptoms of autism may not be apparent immediately after birth, the underlying brain differences are accumulating. Sometimes the brain can compensate to make up for the disrupted processes. Eventually though, if the disruption was sufficiently severe, the compensatory processes are no longer enough, and symptoms emerge.
This may likewise explain many cases of autistic regression, in which a young child seems to be developing normally, only to lose abilities, or regress, into autism. Perhaps the initial disruption in brain development continued worsening. Or perhaps the compensatory processes couldn’t keep up.
Given how complex the brain is, it can be very difficult to correct differences in brain development and function that start so early in life. This is why treatment for autism needs to be so intensive, and why early diagnosis and treatment are so important.
developmental-behavioral pediatrician Paul Wang, Senior vice president for medical research.

Understand the Changeable First Year
As for autism, studies demonstrate that behavioral signs can begin to emerge as early as 6 to 12 months. However, most professionals who specialize in diagnosing the disorder won’t attempt to make a definite diagnosis until 18 months. This is because autism symptoms can continue to emerge – or fade away – until around 24 months. At that time, we say that an autism diagnosis tends to become “stable.”

To illustrate what I mean, consider the example of a toddler who is meeting all his or her developmental milestones at 18 months, but then begins to lose skills, or “regress.” In other words, autism can’t be ruled out at 18 months. Conversely some babies show early signs and delays, but than catch up with their peers by 24 months.

Recognize the Range
That said, some children can be diagnosed earlier than 24 months. I once saw a 14-month-old boy who wasn’t babbling, making eye contact or engaging in social games. He played only in a highly repetitive fashion. By the time he was 18 months old, his autism diagnosis was very clear, and he responded well to early intervention.

It’s also important to remember that many high-functioning children with autism aren’t diagnosed until they enter school and start struggling socially.
https://www.autismspeaks.org/expert-opinion/how-early-can-autism-be-diagnosed
Lauren Elder, PhD, Autism Speaks former assistant director of dissemination science

Autism represents an unusual pattern of development beginning in infancy or the toddler years and defined by deficits in 3 areas: reciprocal social interaction, communication, and restricted and repetitive behaviors.1,2 While parents typically report concerns in the first year of life,3 many children do not receive diagnoses until much later. Several studies have suggested that diagnoses of autism made at age 2 years are stable through age 3 years,4-7 and diagnoses made by age 5 years are stable up to late adolescence.8 A recent study reported relatively good diagnostic stability but limited continuity in symptom severity to age 7 years for children given autism diagnoses at age 2 years.9

Several intervention projects reported diagnostic changes and extraordinary levels of improvement in a substantial minority of young children with autism.10,11 Other reports found little diagnostic change and fewer marked improvements.12,13 Possible explanations for these conflicting results are diagnostic instability or the lack of age-appropriate diagnostic criteria for very young children. In addition, epidemiological,14 genetic,15 and diagnostic studies16 have extended the conceptualization of autism to include a broader spectrum of disorders that range from autism to potentially milder forms of social deficits, including pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS),17,18 atypical autism, and Asperger syndrome.19,20 Recently, investigators have begun to ask about the stability for the broader autism spectrum disorder (ASD) as well as for more narrowly defined autism.21

High stability has been found for clinical diagnoses between ages 2 and 3 years when health care professionals interpreted standard criteria for autism.
Catherine Lord, PhD; Susan Risi, PhD; Pamela S. DiLavore, PhD; et al
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/209669

Cannabis is strongly linked to autism whether you like it or not.
Your unwillingness to admit that is hilarious, your unwillingness to discuss it further proves you are not interested in Autism, Youre only interests revolve around trolling about vaccines.

So why does the Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) say there is “growing evidence” that people with serious mental illnesses, like depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis.
In addition they say using the drug regularly appears to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia.
The RCP also maintains that there is a “clear link” to cannabis use and later mental health issues where someone has a genetic vulnerability.
But wait theres more
Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies that use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.

Autistic disorders (ADs) are heterogeneous neurodevelopmental disorders arised by the interaction of genes and environmental factors. Dysfunctions in social interaction and communication skills, repetitive and stereotypic verbal and non-verbal behaviours are common features of ADs. There are no defined mechanisms of pathogenesis, rendering curative therapy very difficult. Indeed, the treatments for autism presently available can be divided into behavioural, nutritional and medical approaches, although no defined standard approach exists. Autistic children display immune system dysregulation and show an altered immune response of peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs). In this study, we investigated the involvement of cannabinoid system in PBMCs from autistic children compared to age-matched normal healthy developing controls (age ranging 3-9 years; mean age: 6.06 ± 1.52 vs. 6.14 ± 1.39 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). The mRNA level for cannabinoid receptor type 2 (CB2) was significantly increased in AD-PBMCs as compared to healthy subjects (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 0.34 ± 0.03 vs. 0.23 ± 0.02 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively), whereas CB1 and fatty acid amide hydrolase mRNA levels were unchanged. mRNA levels of N-acylphosphatidylethanolamine-hydrolyzing phospholipase D gene were slightly decreased. Protein levels of CB-2 were also significantly increased in autistic children (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 33.5 ± 1.32 vs. 6.70 ± 1.25 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). Our data indicate CB2 receptor as potential therapeutic target for the pharmacological management of the autism care.

Children exposed in utero to cannabis present permanent neurobehavioral and cognitive impairments. Psychoactive constituents from Cannabis spp., particularly Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), bind to cannabinoid receptors in the fetal brain. However, it is unknown whether THC can trigger a cannabinoid receptor-driven molecular cascade to disrupt neuronal specification. Here, we show that repeated THC exposure disrupts endocannabinoid signaling, particularly the temporal dynamics of CB1 cannabinoid receptor, to rewire the fetal cortical circuitry. By interrogating the THC-sensitive neuronal proteome we identify Superior Cervical Ganglion 10 (SCG10)/stathmin-2, a microtubule-binding protein in axons, as a substrate of altered neuronal connectivity. We find SCG10 mRNA and protein reduced in the hippocampus of midgestational human cannabis-exposed fetuses, defining SCG10 as the first cannabis-driven molecular effector in the developing cerebrum. CB1 cannabinoid receptor activation recruits c-Jun N-terminal kinases to phosphorylate SCG10, promoting its rapid degradation in situ in motile axons and microtubule stabilization. Thus, THC enables ectopic formation of filopodia and alters axon morphology. These data highlight the maintenance of cytoskeletal dynamics as a molecular target for cannabis, whose imbalance can limit the computational power of neuronal circuitries in affected offspring.

Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.

Chronic cannabis exposure can lead to cerebellar dysfunction in humans, but the neurobiological mechanisms involved remain incompletely understood. Here, we found that in mice, subchronic administration of the psychoactive component of cannabis, delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), activated cerebellar microglia and increased the expression of neuroinflammatory markers, including IL-1β. This neuroinflammatory phenotype correlated with deficits in cerebellar conditioned learning and fine motor coordination. The neuroinflammatory phenotype was readily detectable in the cerebellum of mice with global loss of the CB1 cannabinoid receptor (CB1R, Cb1(-/-) mice) and in mice lacking CB1R in the cerebellar parallel fibers, suggesting that CB1R downregulation in the cerebellar molecular layer plays a key role in THC-induced cerebellar deficits. Expression of CB2 cannabinoid receptor (CB2R) and Il1b mRNA was increased under neuroinflammatory conditions in activated CD11b-positive microglial cells. Furthermore, administration of the immunosuppressant minocycline or an inhibitor of IL-1β receptor signaling prevented the deficits in cerebellar function in Cb1(-/-) and THC-withdrawn mice. Our results suggest that cerebellar microglial activation plays a crucial role in the cerebellar deficits induced by repeated cannabis exposure.

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/increased-autism-incidence-is-there-a-single-cause-2375-4494-1000273.php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23934130
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc....php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK333029/

TheDemonLord

24th January 2019, 09:53

Really? Did you diagnose your 'condition' yourself, did you?

The condition I do have, is not and was not diagnosed by a psychologist. Nor by a psychological Evaluation.

So keep it up Katman, it's so nice to see you reveling in your habit of posting innacurate, disproved BS about things you've demonstrably got no clue about.

F5 Dave

24th January 2019, 17:13

Will just leave this here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/110136209/the-antivaccination-debate-was-built-on-a-lie-why-do-people-still-believe-it

Katman

24th January 2019, 17:28

Will just leave this here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/110136209/the-antivaccination-debate-was-built-on-a-lie-why-do-people-still-believe-it

6 reported cases in Waikato and 2 in the Bay of Plenty.

Oh my god, the sky's falling.

Chicken fucking little.

husaberg

24th January 2019, 17:35

Will just leave this here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/110136209/the-antivaccination-debate-was-built-on-a-lie-why-do-people-still-believe-it

With all due respect Dave i think steveo plus everyone in the KB conspiracy crew struggle to See how that Joel Rindelaub, Ph.D. and Research Fellow at the University of Auckland's medical experience could ever stack up against Taupo Steves B2 in School Cert English and Boyscout badge in First aid.
In all seriousness though what you need to remember is Taupo Steve gets a kick out of spreading false information and a hard-on that he might cause pain and suffering on a innocent child and their family.
While some might suggest the reason is, hes a sad little parasitic narcissistic troll stuck in a pathetic life who will never understand unconditional love. I wouldn't be that mean, i would just say hes an EGG

I would suggest suggest a far simpler way is to suggest to get Katman to stut up that in some instances where there is not a genetic reason for Autism research suggests there may be a tie in with Cannabis or some other chemical use or other substances from a pollutent may that have interfered with the receptors or their development.

WALRUS

24th January 2019, 17:35

Will just leave this here.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/110136209/the-antivaccination-debate-was-built-on-a-lie-why-do-people-still-believe-it

I'm assuming that has been posted in this thread at least 30 times from multiple sources but has been ignored as it does every other time its brought up

Katman

24th January 2019, 18:30

I'm assuming that has been posted in this thread at least 30 times from multiple sources but has been ignored as it does every other time its brought up

Wake me up if someone dies.

Katman

24th January 2019, 18:40

With all due respect Dave i think steveo plus everyone in the KB conspiracy crew struggle to See how that Joel Rindelaub, Ph.D. and Research Fellow at the University of Auckland's medical experience could ever stack up against Taupo Steves B2 in School Cert English and Boyscout badge in First aid.
In all seriousness though what you need to remember is Taupo Steve gets a kick out of spreading false information and a hard-on that he might cause pain and suffering on a innocent child and their family.
While some might suggest the reason is hes a sad little parasitic narcissistic troll stuck in a pathetic life who will never understand unconditional love. I wouldn't be that mean, i would just say hes an EGG

I would suggest suggest a far simpler way is to suggest to get Katman to stut up that in some instances where there is not a genetic reason for Autism research suggests there may be a tie in with Cannabis or some other chemical use or other substances from a pollutent may that have interfered with the receptors or their development.

Cool story bro moron.

Katman

24th January 2019, 20:14

Not as good a story aa how your fav herb that you think is harmless might be the "smoking gun" for Autism.

You should probably copy and paste that post again - in case anyone missed it the first six times.

husaberg

24th January 2019, 20:32

You should probably copy and paste that post again - in case anyone missed it the first six times.

I am pretty Sure anyone who bothered to follow thos thread has noticed you don't respond to real science, understand maths or comprehend reality.
Or it seems discuss the links between Your beloved herb and ASD.
Unless of course i got it all you are going to discuss it now?:nya:
ps Control V is all it takes to paste if you know anything about Computers
But our unwillingness to admit that there is a link is hilarious, your unwillingness to discuss it further proves you are not interested in Autism, You're only interests revolve around trolling about vaccines.

So why does the Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) say there is “growing evidence” that people with serious mental illnesses, like depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis.
In addition they say using the drug regularly appears to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia.
The RCP also maintains that there is a “clear link” to cannabis use and later mental health issues where someone has a genetic vulnerability.
But wait theres more
Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies that use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.

Autistic disorders (ADs) are heterogeneous neurodevelopmental disorders arised by the interaction of genes and environmental factors. Dysfunctions in social interaction and communication skills, repetitive and stereotypic verbal and non-verbal behaviours are common features of ADs. There are no defined mechanisms of pathogenesis, rendering curative therapy very difficult. Indeed, the treatments for autism presently available can be divided into behavioural, nutritional and medical approaches, although no defined standard approach exists. Autistic children display immune system dysregulation and show an altered immune response of peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs). In this study, we investigated the involvement of cannabinoid system in PBMCs from autistic children compared to age-matched normal healthy developing controls (age ranging 3-9 years; mean age: 6.06 ± 1.52 vs. 6.14 ± 1.39 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). The mRNA level for cannabinoid receptor type 2 (CB2) was significantly increased in AD-PBMCs as compared to healthy subjects (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 0.34 ± 0.03 vs. 0.23 ± 0.02 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively), whereas CB1 and fatty acid amide hydrolase mRNA levels were unchanged. mRNA levels of N-acylphosphatidylethanolamine-hydrolyzing phospholipase D gene were slightly decreased. Protein levels of CB-2 were also significantly increased in autistic children (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 33.5 ± 1.32 vs. 6.70 ± 1.25 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). Our data indicate CB2 receptor as potential therapeutic target for the pharmacological management of the autism care.

Children exposed in utero to cannabis present permanent neurobehavioral and cognitive impairments. Psychoactive constituents from Cannabis spp., particularly Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), bind to cannabinoid receptors in the fetal brain. However, it is unknown whether THC can trigger a cannabinoid receptor-driven molecular cascade to disrupt neuronal specification. Here, we show that repeated THC exposure disrupts endocannabinoid signaling, particularly the temporal dynamics of CB1 cannabinoid receptor, to rewire the fetal cortical circuitry. By interrogating the THC-sensitive neuronal proteome we identify Superior Cervical Ganglion 10 (SCG10)/stathmin-2, a microtubule-binding protein in axons, as a substrate of altered neuronal connectivity. We find SCG10 mRNA and protein reduced in the hippocampus of midgestational human cannabis-exposed fetuses, defining SCG10 as the first cannabis-driven molecular effector in the developing cerebrum. CB1 cannabinoid receptor activation recruits c-Jun N-terminal kinases to phosphorylate SCG10, promoting its rapid degradation in situ in motile axons and microtubule stabilization. Thus, THC enables ectopic formation of filopodia and alters axon morphology. These data highlight the maintenance of cytoskeletal dynamics as a molecular target for cannabis, whose imbalance can limit the computational power of neuronal circuitries in affected offspring.

Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.

Chronic cannabis exposure can lead to cerebellar dysfunction in humans, but the neurobiological mechanisms involved remain incompletely understood. Here, we found that in mice, subchronic administration of the psychoactive component of cannabis, delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), activated cerebellar microglia and increased the expression of neuroinflammatory markers, including IL-1β. This neuroinflammatory phenotype correlated with deficits in cerebellar conditioned learning and fine motor coordination. The neuroinflammatory phenotype was readily detectable in the cerebellum of mice with global loss of the CB1 cannabinoid receptor (CB1R, Cb1(-/-) mice) and in mice lacking CB1R in the cerebellar parallel fibers, suggesting that CB1R downregulation in the cerebellar molecular layer plays a key role in THC-induced cerebellar deficits. Expression of CB2 cannabinoid receptor (CB2R) and Il1b mRNA was increased under neuroinflammatory conditions in activated CD11b-positive microglial cells. Furthermore, administration of the immunosuppressant minocycline or an inhibitor of IL-1β receptor signaling prevented the deficits in cerebellar function in Cb1(-/-) and THC-withdrawn mice. Our results suggest that cerebellar microglial activation plays a crucial role in the cerebellar deficits induced by repeated cannabis exposure.

Cannabis alters human DNA

A new study published by University of Leicester researchers has found "convincing evidence" that cannabis smoke damages DNA in ways that could potentially increase the risk of cancer development in humans.
Using a newly developed highly sensitive liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry method, the University of Leicester scientists found clear indication that cannabis smoke damages DNA, under laboratory conditions.https://medicalxpress.com/news/2009-06-cannabis-human-dna.html

Genetic effects of marijuana.
Zimmerman S1, Zimmerman AM. ( not the same dude Katspam posted thats AW Zimmerman)
Marijuana and its constitutive cannabinoids--tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), cannabinol (CBN), and cannabidiol (CBD)--markedly affect mammalian cells. Cytogenetic studies have revealed that cannabinoids induce chromosome aberrations in both in vivo and in vitro studies. These aberrations include chromosomal breaks, deletions, translocations, errors in chromosomal segregation, and hypoploidy, and are due to the clastogenic action of cannabinoids or to cannabinoid-induced disruption of mitotic events or both. Conflicting reports of the cytogenetic effects of cannabinoids are partially explained by the different experimental protocols, cell types, and animals used by investigators. Cannabinoids also suppress macromolecular synthesis (DNA, RNA, and protein) as well as reduce the level of histone gene expression. In general these studies show that cannabinoids are detrimental to the health of an individual.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2174024

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/increased-autism-incidence-is-there-a-single-cause-2375-4494-1000273.php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23934130
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc....php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK333029/

Katman

24th January 2019, 21:01

ps Control V is all it takes to paste if you know anything about Computers

You should post it again - just to be sure everyone's noticed you.

husaberg

24th January 2019, 21:14

You should post it again - just to be sure everyone's noticed i just wont discuss the cannabis autism link.
okay seeing you asked nicely
I am pretty Sure anyone who bothered to follow thos thread has noticed you don't respond to real science, understand maths or comprehend reality.
Or it seems discuss the links between Your beloved herb and ASD.
Unless of course i got it all you are going to discuss it now?:nya:
ps Control V is all it takes to paste if you know anything about Computers
But our unwillingness to admit that there is a link is hilarious, your unwillingness to discuss it further proves you are not interested in Autism, You're only interests revolve around trolling about vaccines.

So why does the Royal College of Psychiatrists (RCP) say there is “growing evidence” that people with serious mental illnesses, like depression and psychosis, are more likely to use cannabis.
In addition they say using the drug regularly appears to double the risk of developing a psychotic episode or long-term schizophrenia.
The RCP also maintains that there is a “clear link” to cannabis use and later mental health issues where someone has a genetic vulnerability.
But wait theres more
Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies that use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.

Autistic disorders (ADs) are heterogeneous neurodevelopmental disorders arised by the interaction of genes and environmental factors. Dysfunctions in social interaction and communication skills, repetitive and stereotypic verbal and non-verbal behaviours are common features of ADs. There are no defined mechanisms of pathogenesis, rendering curative therapy very difficult. Indeed, the treatments for autism presently available can be divided into behavioural, nutritional and medical approaches, although no defined standard approach exists. Autistic children display immune system dysregulation and show an altered immune response of peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs). In this study, we investigated the involvement of cannabinoid system in PBMCs from autistic children compared to age-matched normal healthy developing controls (age ranging 3-9 years; mean age: 6.06 ± 1.52 vs. 6.14 ± 1.39 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). The mRNA level for cannabinoid receptor type 2 (CB2) was significantly increased in AD-PBMCs as compared to healthy subjects (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 0.34 ± 0.03 vs. 0.23 ± 0.02 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively), whereas CB1 and fatty acid amide hydrolase mRNA levels were unchanged. mRNA levels of N-acylphosphatidylethanolamine-hydrolyzing phospholipase D gene were slightly decreased. Protein levels of CB-2 were also significantly increased in autistic children (mean ± SE of arbitrary units: 33.5 ± 1.32 vs. 6.70 ± 1.25 in autistic children and healthy subjects, respectively). Our data indicate CB2 receptor as potential therapeutic target for the pharmacological management of the autism care.

Children exposed in utero to cannabis present permanent neurobehavioral and cognitive impairments. Psychoactive constituents from Cannabis spp., particularly Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), bind to cannabinoid receptors in the fetal brain. However, it is unknown whether THC can trigger a cannabinoid receptor-driven molecular cascade to disrupt neuronal specification. Here, we show that repeated THC exposure disrupts endocannabinoid signaling, particularly the temporal dynamics of CB1 cannabinoid receptor, to rewire the fetal cortical circuitry. By interrogating the THC-sensitive neuronal proteome we identify Superior Cervical Ganglion 10 (SCG10)/stathmin-2, a microtubule-binding protein in axons, as a substrate of altered neuronal connectivity. We find SCG10 mRNA and protein reduced in the hippocampus of midgestational human cannabis-exposed fetuses, defining SCG10 as the first cannabis-driven molecular effector in the developing cerebrum. CB1 cannabinoid receptor activation recruits c-Jun N-terminal kinases to phosphorylate SCG10, promoting its rapid degradation in situ in motile axons and microtubule stabilization. Thus, THC enables ectopic formation of filopodia and alters axon morphology. These data highlight the maintenance of cytoskeletal dynamics as a molecular target for cannabis, whose imbalance can limit the computational power of neuronal circuitries in affected offspring.

Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.

Chronic cannabis exposure can lead to cerebellar dysfunction in humans, but the neurobiological mechanisms involved remain incompletely understood. Here, we found that in mice, subchronic administration of the psychoactive component of cannabis, delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), activated cerebellar microglia and increased the expression of neuroinflammatory markers, including IL-1β. This neuroinflammatory phenotype correlated with deficits in cerebellar conditioned learning and fine motor coordination. The neuroinflammatory phenotype was readily detectable in the cerebellum of mice with global loss of the CB1 cannabinoid receptor (CB1R, Cb1(-/-) mice) and in mice lacking CB1R in the cerebellar parallel fibers, suggesting that CB1R downregulation in the cerebellar molecular layer plays a key role in THC-induced cerebellar deficits. Expression of CB2 cannabinoid receptor (CB2R) and Il1b mRNA was increased under neuroinflammatory conditions in activated CD11b-positive microglial cells. Furthermore, administration of the immunosuppressant minocycline or an inhibitor of IL-1β receptor signaling prevented the deficits in cerebellar function in Cb1(-/-) and THC-withdrawn mice. Our results suggest that cerebellar microglial activation plays a crucial role in the cerebellar deficits induced by repeated cannabis exposure.

Cannabis alters human DNA

A new study published by University of Leicester researchers has found "convincing evidence" that cannabis smoke damages DNA in ways that could potentially increase the risk of cancer development in humans.
Using a newly developed highly sensitive liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry method, the University of Leicester scientists found clear indication that cannabis smoke damages DNA, under laboratory conditions.https://medicalxpress.com/news/2009-06-cannabis-human-dna.html

Genetic effects of marijuana.
Zimmerman S1, Zimmerman AM. ( not the same dude Katspam posted thats AW Zimmerman)
Marijuana and its constitutive cannabinoids--tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), cannabinol (CBN), and cannabidiol (CBD)--markedly affect mammalian cells. Cytogenetic studies have revealed that cannabinoids induce chromosome aberrations in both in vivo and in vitro studies. These aberrations include chromosomal breaks, deletions, translocations, errors in chromosomal segregation, and hypoploidy, and are due to the clastogenic action of cannabinoids or to cannabinoid-induced disruption of mitotic events or both. Conflicting reports of the cytogenetic effects of cannabinoids are partially explained by the different experimental protocols, cell types, and animals used by investigators. Cannabinoids also suppress macromolecular synthesis (DNA, RNA, and protein) as well as reduce the level of histone gene expression. In general these studies show that cannabinoids are detrimental to the health of an individual.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2174024

https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/increased-autism-incidence-is-there-a-single-cause-2375-4494-1000273.php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23934130
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-acc....php?aid=68552
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK333029/

F5 Dave

24th January 2019, 21:17

Time to unsubscribe again. See you in 6 months.

TheDemonLord

25th January 2019, 13:30

Katman

25th January 2019, 15:23

husaberg

25th January 2019, 18:54

Well the answer's simple.

So what about the links between Cannabis use and Autism.
Are you ready to discuss that or are you burying your head in the sand of some dry riverbed in mexico:laugh:

TheDemonLord

25th January 2019, 19:22

Well the answer's simple.

They should just mandate to vaccinate that whole tribe.

Those dirty savages could have passed any manner of germs onto that poor missionary.

actually - I'm more interested if this does go to court as to what legal precedents it may set.

Katman

25th January 2019, 19:24

actually - I'm more interested if this does go to court as to what legal precedents it may set.

Don't go getting your hopes too high.

TheDemonLord

25th January 2019, 19:39

Don't go getting your hopes too high.

Who said anything about Hopes? Eitherway (if it goes to court) a precedent of sorts will be set - and that will be interesting.

husaberg

25th January 2019, 19:42

As much I'm loathe to cite it as a source:

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/christian-missionary-from-maine-could-be-tried-for-genocide-by-brazil-after-entering-land-occupied-by-an-isolated-tribe-and-exposing-them-to-deadly-disease/ar-BBSHEfr?li=BBqdg4K&ocid=iehp

This raises a very interesting possibility of a precedent - If an individually can be charged with knowingly infected people.

actually - I'm more interested if this does go to court as to what legal precedents it may set.

Its only a small step beyond the antivaxers anti medicine couple convicted of failing to provide the necessities for life when their child died of menigitis.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3298261/appeal-hearing-begins-thursday-for-alberta-parents-convicted-in-sons-meningitis-death/

But for the missionary to be found guilty it would have to be proven he knew or it was reasonable for him to know he would be exposing them to deadly diseases.
In the canada case the parents thought they knew better than modern medicine much like katman

BuzzardNZ

25th January 2019, 21:25

Its only a small step beyond the antivaxers anti medicine couple convicted of failing to provide the necessities for life when their child died of menigitis.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3298261/appeal-hearing-begins-thursday-for-alberta-parents-convicted-in-sons-meningitis-death/

But for the missionary to be found guilty it would have to be proven he knew or it was reasonable for him to know he would be exposing them to deadly diseases.
In the canada case the parents thought they knew better than modern medicine much like katman

Out of curiosity did you get Koi ( https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174536-Hello-friends-(koi) ) vaccinated while you were at it?

husaberg

25th January 2019, 21:41

Out of curiosity did you get Koi ( https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174536-Hello-friends-(koi) ) vaccinated while you were at it?

My children are vaccinated i can really speak for others. Do you have children and are they vaccinated?
There was a thread a while back where some people were asking about you in wellington, by the sound of it they were trying to reach out and get in touch. You should go find it and arrange to meet up with them in person by sounds of it you could do with meeting some new people, they certainly seemed keen to meet up with you.

Katman

26th January 2019, 05:33

In the canada case the parents thought they knew better than modern medicine much like katman

The Canadian couple were prosecuted for failing to seek medical treatment for their son's illness.

As I've pointed out already, vaccinations aren't the 'treatment' of an illness.

husaberg

26th January 2019, 05:51

The Canadian couple were prosecuted for failing to seek medical treatment for their son's illness.

As I've pointed out already, vaccinations aren't the 'treatment' of an illness.

Thats odd because the courts thought the charges were "failing to provide the necessities of life"
Also the father who was found guilty said this

David has dubbed the proceedings a “vaccine trial,” claiming the Crown represents the “vaccine agenda.” He says authorities are “looking to create the legal precedent through the court system that when a child falls ill, parents who chose not to vaccinate have a greater onus to seek mainstream medical attention sooner than parents that do vaccinate, and if any harm befalls the non-vaccinated child from an illness that there was a vaccine for, the parents can be held criminally liable.”
So maybe the plantif is wrong and like you paranoid and you are right about his trial. but you need to convice the court they got the charges wrong and the plantif what the trial was about first.
Anytime you want to further discuss the Canadian anti vaxers who were convicted, that's fine but its going to happen after the Cannabis Autism link is discussed not before.
You too afraid or what, Cat got ya tongue gerbil-er

Katman

26th January 2019, 06:25

So maybe the plantif is wrong and like you paranoid and you are right about his trial. but you need to convice the court they got the charges wrong and the plantif what the trial was about first.

The parents were prosecuted for failing to seek medical attention for their son's illness.

They weren't prosecuted for failing to vaccinate their son.

husaberg

26th January 2019, 06:31

The parents were prosecuted for failing to seek medical attention for their son's illness.

They weren't prosecuted for failing to vaccinate their son.

Refer to previous post in full

Thats odd because the courts thought the charges were "failing to provide the necessities of life"
Also the father who was found guilty said this

David has dubbed the proceedings a “vaccine trial,” claiming the Crown represents the “vaccine agenda.” He says authorities are “looking to create the legal precedent through the court system that when a child falls ill, parents who chose not to vaccinate have a greater onus to seek mainstream medical attention sooner than parents that do vaccinate, and if any harm befalls the non-vaccinated child from an illness that there was a vaccine for, the parents can be held criminally liable.”
So maybe the plantif is wrong and like you paranoid and you are right about his trial. but you need to convice the court they got the charges wrong and the plantif what the trial was about first.
Anytime you want to further discuss the Canadian anti vaxers who were convicted, that's fine but its going to happen after the Cannabis Autism link is discussed not before.
You too afraid or what, Cat got ya tongue gerbil-er

Katman

26th January 2019, 06:53

Refer to previous post in full

I don't imagine there would be anyone these days who would deny there are a whole raft of things that a pregnant mother could do that might cause harm or developmental issues for their unborn child.

That's why women are advised to not smoke or drink alcohol during pregnancy.

(They're even advised to avoid eating too much of certain types of fish).

So no-one is disputing that there may be a number of environmental issues involved here but as I've already said, if those environmental issues have caused harm to the child, they would be expected to manifest themselves from childbirth.

It doesn't explain the sudden decline in a child immediately following vaccination.

Interestingly though, the flu vaccine that pregnant mothers are advised to have, often still contains mercury.

husaberg

26th January 2019, 07:24

I don't imagine there would be anyone these days who would deny there are a whole raft of things that a pregnant mother could do that might cause harm or developmental issues for their unborn child.

That's why women are advised to not smoke or drink alcohol during pregnancy.

(They're even advised to avoid eating too much of certain types of fish).

So no-one is disputing that there may be a number of environmental issues involved here but as I've already said, if those environmental issues have caused harm to the child, they would be expected to manifest themselves from childbirth.

It doesn't explain the sudden decline in a child immediately following vaccination.
First Autism is predominately a genetic condition paased on from one or both parents. this is a medical fact.

Research tells us that autism tends to run in families. Changes in certain genes increase the risk that a child will develop autism. If a parent carries one or more of these gene changes, they may get passed to a child (even if the parent does not have autism). Other times, these genetic changes arise spontaneously in an early embryo or the sperm and/or egg that combine to create the embryo. Again, the majority of these gene changes do not cause autism by themselves. They simply increase risk for the disorder

Second there is Autism’s environmental risk factors

Research also shows that certain environmental influences may further increase – or reduce – autism risk in people who are genetically predisposed to the disorder. Importantly, the increase or decrease in risk appears to be small for any one of these risk factors:
Third there are other factors

Increased risk Advanced parent age (either parent) Pregnancy and birth complications (e.g. extreme prematurity , low birth weight, multiple pregnancies [twin, triplet, etc.]) Pregnancies spaced less than one year apart
Decreased risk Prenatal vitamins containing folic acid, before and at conception and through pregnancy
As i already explained there is no evidence to suggest any of the ingredients at the rates used in vaccines damage the receptors in the brain most readily identified in people suffering from Autism.
below is a massive run of studies conducted over 20 years with 1000's of subjects
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vaccine-Studies-Examine-the-Evidence.aspx
There is however reams of evidence that shows Cannabis does effect those exact receptors. Which you refuse to discuss.

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies t[B]hat use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.

Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.

Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.

“All of the model systems point to the notion that cannabinoids affects many aspects of human development because THC and other chemicals alter molecular pathways that shouldn’t be disrupted during development of a fetus,” Gallicano said. Disruption of BDNF, an important neural pathway, can increase the risk of congenital disorder and can impair cognition as seen in autism.
it is also not the smoking don't try and confuse the issue though making it about the smoking that doesn't help and has been shown to damage DNA in developing fetuses also.
its the Drug itself THC a drug component in Cannabis that has got 25 times stronger in recent years.
AS for you often trod out child's symptoms developing post vaccination
There is no evidence to support this as has been spelled out between 15 months and two years is when children are able to be reliably diagnosed.
https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vaccine-Studies-Examine-the-Evidence.aspx
For instance children in japan are vaccinated later there is no coloration in their figures to support later development of Autism in fact quite the opposite as thy had a higher rate of autism when they vaccinated less.

I have been following this thread for years not once have you ever posted anything as scientific or compelling to support Vaccine use has anything to do with Autism.
Yet i spend 2 minutes on google i found a raft of information far more compelling to link Cannabis with ASD and you just want to ignore it.
Anyone would think you could have a pro Cannabis agenda or something rather than any real interest in Autism

Katman

26th January 2019, 07:49

First Autism is predominately a genetic condition paased on from one or both parents. this is a medical fact.

And I have never claimed that autism has nothing to do with genetics.

In fact, the suggestion is that there are certain children who are genetically susceptible to an adverse reaction to vaccines.

husaberg

26th January 2019, 08:00

And I have never claimed that autism has nothing to do with genetics.

In fact, the suggestion is that there are certain children who are genetically susceptible to an adverse reaction to vaccines.

Yet you have never been able to produce any credible supporting evidence "TO LINK VACCINATION TO AUTISM"
Yet at the same time you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge there is credible scientific to link Cannabis and Autism risk factors via brain chemistry and risk factors and scientific studies.
As you are doing now, as i said discuss it or just admit you have an agenda where you dont' want to discuss the apparent adverse effects of Cannabis use.
better yet explain How can it be given you have been banging on about Vaccines and Autism for years yet you can't produce anything credible to support it.
Yet i can google up a link between Cannabis and Autism in a few minutes with plenty or scientific data to support it.
I dont care either way as its rather amusing watching you try and change the subject.

Katman

26th January 2019, 10:15

As you are doing now, as i said discuss it or just admit you have an agenda where you dont' want to discuss the apparent adverse effects of Cannabis use.

Considering I have never supported the idea of pregnant women using cannabis (and in fact, I'd be the first to call them a stupid bitch if they did so), I'm not quite seeing your point.

I dont care either way as its rather amusing watching you try and change the subject.

It's not me trying to change the subject.

husaberg

26th January 2019, 10:56

Yet you have never been able to produce any credible supporting evidence "TO LINK VACCINATION TO AUTISM"
Yet at the same time you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge there is credible scientific to link Cannabis and Autism risk factors via brain chemistry and risk factors and scientific studies.
As you are doing now, as i said discuss it or just admit you have an agenda where you dont' want to discuss the apparent adverse effects of Cannabis use.
better yet explain How can it be given you have been banging on about Vaccines and Autism for years yet you can't produce anything credible to support it.
Yet i can google up a link between Cannabis and Autism in a few minutes with plenty or scientific data to support it.
I dont care either way as its rather amusing watching you try and change the subject.

Considering I have never supported the idea of pregnant women using cannabis (and in fact, I'd be the first to call them a stupid bitch if they did so), I'm not quite seeing your point.
It's not me trying to change the subject.

Wow that was you really discussing ther holes in your whole premise and discussing why my 2 minute google searched turned up far more scientific merit than your years of rumour and inuendo your posted about vaccines
Maybe if you didn't edit out half the posts and respond to it content you wouldn't look quite so evasive.

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.
Endogenous cannabinoids bind to type-1 cannabinoid receptors in the central nervous system (CNS) to guide neural pattern formation and network connectivity in the developing brain. Research by Cutando et al. provides evidence that THC binding of EC-1 receptors as a consequence of subchronic cannabis exposure may affect these signal pathways, at least in part, by activating microglial cells important to neural function [21]. Similar patterns of cerebellar microglial activation have been documented in the brains of autistic children, suggesting similar pathways may be involved. Tortoriello et al. [22] have recently determined that THC affects EC-1 receptor signaling in the developing fetal brain by altering fetal cortical circuitry, further implicating THC as a potential cause of autism.
Researchers from Georgetown University Medical Center combed through papers studying cannabinoids and their effect on human embryos, using mostly animal models published between 1975 and 2015. They found that Tetrahydrocannabinol or THC, the active ingredient in marijuana, can cross the placenta thus exposing the fetus to the chemical.

“We know from limited human studies that use of marijuana in early pregnancy is associated with many of the same risks as tobacco, including miscarriage, birth defects, developmental delays and learning disabilities, but animal research suggests the potential for many more developmental issues linked with the drug
Cannabinoids can affect the use of folic acid, which is important for normal growth and development of the placenta and the embryo. A deficiency in folic acid can cause low birth weight, increase the risk of spontaneous abortion and neural tube defects like spina bifida.
Over the course of two years, Dr. Lucy Troup studied the long-term effects of 70 participants who either smoked cannabis, smoked casually, or smoked chronically, according to self-reported data. The study took place in three parts: an implicit emotion test, an explicit emotion text, and an empathy test, where volunteers were asked to view a facial emotion—positive, neutral, or negative—and were rated on their ability to empathize. One of the most surprising results was that cannabis users generally had lower empathy ratings than the control group.
This result has opened up questions around weed and autism, though this current study has not looked directly at the link between the two. "I've been approached by a number of researchers who are very interested in the use of cannabis to treat autism and if the two are related or causal," Dr. Troup says. "We found that when you ask a cannabis user to think about other people's emotions and relate to them, it's harder for them. That inability to empathize would be a parallel to autistic-like behaviors.
Additionally, Dr. Troup also asked participants to undergo an implicit emotional task. Both the control group of non-smokers and the cannabis users were hooked up to an electroencephalogram (EEG) while they were shown faces with positive, neutral, and negative facial expressions, but asked to focus on the sex of the face displayed. Later they were asked to recall the emotions they were shown, and the cannabis users faired much worse with this task than non-cannabis users. From these results, Dr. Troup infers that weed inhibits a person's ability to intuitively identify emotions when they're not explicitly focusing on them.
Researchers also found that THC levels in marijuana that is smoked has increased 25-fold since 1970. The studies, however, did not analyze the harmful effects of smoking marijuana in the animals.

Because conversely there is no credible basis to say that there is any link between autism and Vaccination. Despite your protestations All the evidence points out the opposite.https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vaccine-Studies-Examine-the-Evidence.aspx

Hardly surprising considering your history that you would wimp out when asked a question beyond your School C education and your Taupo online Conspiracy club.

Katman

26th January 2019, 11:03

Wow that was you really discussing ther holes in your whole premise and discussing why my 2 minute google searched turned up far more scientific merit than your years of rumour and inuendo your posted about vaccines
Maybe if you didn't edit out half the posts and respond to it content you wouldn't look quite so evasive.

Well I suspect it's safe to say that cannabis has played no part in the autism of any child who's mother never used cannabis while pregnant.

Katman

26th January 2019, 11:56

Yet what about those that did smoke or be exposed to canabis during pregnancy is it safe to say it scientifically could have lead to the child developing autism.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

Are you still smarting from last nights embarrassment?

Katman

26th January 2019, 12:05

I'll take that as a yes.

Katman

26th January 2019, 14:46

Dude, you need to lay off the vaccines.

Katman

26th January 2019, 15:16

Testing.....1, 2, 3....

Katman

26th January 2019, 15:40

Hardly surprising considering your history that you would wimp out when asked a question beyond your School C education and your Taupo online Conspiracy club.

Have you become sufficiently embarrassed about your duplicate posts that you've decided to start deleting them?

I suppose it's at least a start in addressing your mental illness.

Katman

26th January 2019, 15:46

Haven't you posted that already?

husaberg

26th January 2019, 15:48

Well I suspect it's safe to say that cannabis has played no part in the autism of any child who's mother never used cannabis while pregnant.

Yet what about those that did smoke or be exposed to canabis during pregnancy is it safe to say it scientifically could have lead to the child developing autism.
Increased use of tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) during childbearing years

In utero exposure to drugs that interact with neural pathways has been implicated as an important risk factor for ASD. Cannabis/ tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) is the most widely used psychotropic drug; its use has increased substantially over the past 20 years; moreover, more recent formulations of the drug display enhanced potency due to changes in preparation methods [17]. Currently, cannabis use during pregnancy is estimated at 10%. Recent studies by Passey et al. [18] and Shabani et al. [19] have shown that neural deficits can result from in utero cannabis exposure. Moreover, Siniscalco et al. [20] have suggested that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may play an important role in the integrated IS/CNS developmental pathway that is dysregulated in autism. Their research has shown that the cannabinoid receptor type 2(CBR2) signal pathway is upregulated in peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) from children with ASD. This finding raises the possibility that the endocannabinoid (EC) system may be associated with ASD. In addition, the authors found reduced levels of bone marrow differentiated macrophages (BMDCs) in children with ASD that may be linked to altered CBR-2 levels.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23934130
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24218023
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23585028

Children exposed in utero to cannabis present permanent neurobehavioral and cognitive impairments. Psychoactive constituents from Cannabis spp., particularly Δ(9)-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), bind to cannabinoid receptors in the fetal brain. However, it is unknown whether THC can trigger a cannabinoid receptor-driven molecular cascade to disrupt neuronal specification. Here, we show that repeated THC exposure disrupts endocannabinoid signaling, particularly the temporal dynamics of CB1 cannabinoid receptor, to rewire the fetal cortical circuitry. By interrogating the THC-sensitive neuronal proteome we identify Superior Cervical Ganglion 10 (SCG10)/stathmin-2, a microtubule-binding protein in axons, as a substrate of altered neuronal connectivity. We find SCG10 mRNA and protein reduced in the hippocampus of midgestational human cannabis-exposed fetuses, defining SCG10 as the first cannabis-driven molecular effector in the developing cerebrum. CB1 cannabinoid receptor activation recruits c-Jun N-terminal kinases to phosphorylate SCG10, promoting its rapid degradation in situ in motile axons and microtubule stabilization. Thus, THC enables ectopic formation of filopodia and alters axon morphology. These data highlight the maintenance of cytoskeletal dynamics as a molecular target for cannabis, whose imbalance can limit the computational power of neuronal circuitries in affected offspring.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24469251

Chronic cannabis exposure can lead to cerebellar dysfunction in humans, but the neurobiological mechanisms involved remain incompletely understood. Here, we found that in mice, subchronic administration of the psychoactive component of cannabis, delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), activated cerebellar microglia and increased the expression of neuroinflammatory markers, including IL-1β. This neuroinflammatory phenotype correlated with deficits in cerebellar conditioned learning and fine motor coordination. The neuroinflammatory phenotype was readily detectable in the cerebellum of mice with global loss of the CB1 cannabinoid receptor (CB1R, Cb1(-/-) mice) and in mice lacking CB1R in the cerebellar parallel fibers, suggesting that CB1R downregulation in the cerebellar molecular layer plays a key role in THC-induced cerebellar deficits. Expression of CB2 cannabinoid receptor (CB2R) and Il1b mRNA was increased under neuroinflammatory conditions in activated CD11b-positive microglial cells. Furthermore, administration of the immunosuppressant minocycline or an inhibitor of IL-1β receptor signaling prevented the deficits in cerebellar function in Cb1(-/-) and THC-withdrawn mice. Our results suggest that cerebellar microglial activation plays a crucial role in the cerebellar deficits induced by repeated cannabis exposure.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3967658/

Because conversely there is no credable basis to say that there is any link between autism and Vaccination. Despite your protestations All the evidence points out the opposite.https://www.healthychildren.org/English/safety-prevention/immunizations/Pages/Vaccine-Studies-Examine-the-Evidence.aspx

Katman

26th January 2019, 15:52

Oh, look at that. You did post it already.340570

husaberg

26th January 2019, 16:07

Oh, look at that. You did post it already.340570

So where is your answer then :nya:
Are now suggesting i hacked your computer and somehow deleted your non existent answers
4688 clearly has no answer nor has any other of your posts
Maybe you should cut down on the recreational herbs.
they appear to be making you both forgetful and paranoid.

Katman

26th January 2019, 16:09

So where isyour answer then :nya:

My answers are all still there.

I'm not the one feverishly deleting posts.

oldrider

29th January 2019, 17:53

Saw this today - about vaccines??? Warning: Not approved by husaberg - :no:

<iframe width="905" height="509" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WaTjFnvVL4s" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Berries

29th January 2019, 18:23

Rosenstein? Not Jewish by any chance?

Katman

29th January 2019, 19:49

Rosenstein? Not Jewish by any chance?

He's got that smile.

Katman

2nd February 2019, 17:37

(Just getting the discussion back into the thread it belongs in).

Id hate anyone else to go through this let alone my son., but as i have said its i understand a pretty rare thing, just a bad series of co incidents.
I had read extesively about chickenpox and other potential deaths vaccination stops i had never even seen Stevens-Johnson.
Hopefully now chickenpox has been added to the national schedule is going to be rarer and rarer ever year.

I assume you're aware that there is evidence that the onset of SJS can also be due to an adverse reaction to vaccines.

husaberg

2nd February 2019, 18:02

(Just getting the discussion back into the thread it belongs in).

I assume you're aware that there is evidence that the onset of SJS can also be due to an adverse reaction to vaccines.

More than aware unlike you i have a child with it.
unfortunately for you he hasn't contracted it through an adverse reaction to a vaccine.
This is really easy to diagnose as he hasn't been vaccinated for over 2 years. It was also confirmed by two doctors that it was a resultof him having a bad case of chickenpox.
If you were interested in having a discussion you would also answer points put to you.
As it clear you dont and you are a total fool and a narcissistic Muppet.
I will leave you to continue to post unscientific information based on the Wakefeild fraud and your own stupid conspiracy theories.
Theories posted by you in the hope of you getting attention as your life is truly pitiful that you resort to trolling the internet spreading false information.

Why not include the whole discussion where you troll the parent of a sick child.

You ask if English is my second language, but like Katman, you clearly lack comprehension skills.
Doctors quote risk factors for medicals risks to inform parents or patients of risks, its called informed consent.
The risk of death from a Vaccination is 1 in 1 million. Conversely the risk of Death from not receiving a vaccination is 1 in 10000.
Or much far higher in the developing world, by your attitude you are expressing you either lack the deductive reasoning skills to make rational decisions or you suck you at math or have no children.

That aside, as someone who has watched their own child in agony and been told they have developed Stevens-Johnson which has a 1 in 10 chance of dying as a result of the complications of Chicken pox.
What actually makes it far worse, is the knowledge, that if my younger child who gave my older child the chickenpox (despite or best efforts to isolate them), was about to receive their 11 year old vaccination in a few weeks time.
The Vaccination which this time would have resulted in her receiving a Chickenpox vaccination as it was added to the schedule 2 years or so ago, Because my son is 14 he also missed the new schedule but only just.
But feel free to keep going on about vaccines vaccination along with katman, I, myself i will go with real experience and real medical opinions.

ps dont bother to reply, i am not interested.

Did you two both go to the same School for Petulant Children?

Not at all, it's a simple statement of fact:

Becoming a Parent is such a dramatic, life-altering event that you cannot know how and what you will do without living it.

Too be fair TDL, i doubt with his extreme level of narcissism, he would be able to experience as someone without hisd personalty disorder would.
All that would change is he would be even more envious of yet another person getting attention.

Surely if it is so important SOMEONE in the DHB/ system or your doctor who SHOULD HAVE noticed the lack of overlap and contacted parents etc? At least you could have been given a choice.

I know there are people who are unable to have certain vaccinations due to a reactions.

The NZ schedule changed it was the same for everyone else, the risk level for the children was no different than any other child born in NZ born about e 2004 for my son or 2003 for my daughter.
Its just bad luck unfortunately, the number were just not in his favour. But for anyone one especially those without kids to go on about how harmless diseases like chicken pox and Measles etc are maybe they should shut their gobs and leave it to medical experts to advise parents about vaccination. Rather than spread there ill formed third hand conspiracy crap.
The day after my daughter was noticed to have Chickenpox there was a story in the paper about a major outbreak in a town 40Km's away
We have followed the NZ vaccinatio schedules to the letter.
I never had chicken pox until i was 22 my partner 18. neither our or our daughters case was anything like my sons who was more chicken pox than child. He was given all the appropriate medical attention throughout.
Unfortunately due to the incubation period had likely caught the chickenpox even before our daughter showed any symptoms. So our isolated our daughter from him was not enough.
Hes likely going to be admitted again later today as he cant drink anything due to further mouth ulcers and lip legions, again becoming worse.
His legs are randomly going blue he is developing sudden red rashes on his legs that appear and disappear suddenly, Despite the local anesthetic his mouth is being treated with hes in pretty bad pain and cant eat.

Despite not having children I still have first hand experience with both measles and chickenpox.

That's a total bummer Husaberg.

I have been that person who gave someone else a disease which almost killed them. I was quite unaware of what I had done, as my symptoms were minimal.

You just never know.

Don't feel sorry for me, thats not why i shared this, if you should be sorry for anyone here is Katman he reads this and he continues on trolling just the same about vaccines, imagine just how pathetic his life must be.

Please dont bring that member into this.

I just thought it should have been on someone's radar that there were cases that should be covered.

One of my customers regularly has oversight and we pay for it. I feel that in their case there are no excuses.
But they get away with it...... again and again and again.

Id hate anyone else to go through this let alone my son., but as i have said its i understand a pretty rare thing, just a bad series of co incidents.
I had read extesively about chickenpox and other potential deaths vaccination stops i had never even seen Stevens-Johnson.
Hopefully now chickenpox has been added to the national schedule is going to be rarer and rarer ever year.

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