The firearm thread

[frogfeaturesFZR]

I shoot a .243, magic calibre BUT any thing over 300m ? Forget it. Look at a .270/280, 7mm mag, or one of the new Winchester short magnums. Of course you could just shoot a .308 with boat tail projectiles. Hell you could spend squillions, or you could pick up a 2nd hand .308 target rifle for 4-500 dollars.

[jono035]

Yeah, wbks got me thinking I wouldn't mind picking up a centrefire target rifle if I see one come up cheap, especially one in a .308 derived case... Always the trouble of where to shoot it though, wouldn't have any problems at my parents place, but they're a good 4 hours drive away.

Whereabouts do you shoot, frog? A range or private land?

[Drunken Monkey]

Video of .243 hitting a steel target at 600 yards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ8qXiMSdXk

Hitting and killing are 2 different things tho. Target shooting doesn't require the bullet has much energy a POI.

I'm not saying I shoot anywhere close to these ranges, I'm just saying I've heard it can be done. There's some other stuff on there which is .223 at 500 yards, .308 to 800+

[Wolf]

Video of .243 hitting a steel target at 600 yards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ8qXiMSdXk

Hitting and killing are 2 different things tho. Target shooting doesn't require the bullet has much energy a POI.

I'm not saying I shoot anywhere close to these ranges, I'm just saying I've heard it can be done. There's some other stuff on there which is .223 at 500 yards, .308 to 800+

I've heard from those who do it, that .308 is shot at 1000m in competitions - 1200x2400mm target apparently.

[Drunken Monkey]

Then I would have little doubt that hitting targets at 600m with .243 not unreasonable.

[Swoop]

I've heard from those who do it, that .308 is shot at 1000m in competitions - 1200x2400mm target apparently.

Google Wimbledon Cup, or looky here.
A target .308 can be zeroed at 700yds and useable out to the 1000.

[jono035]

Yeah, wasn't debating the .308, I've seen plenty of stuff about shooting it out to 1k yards... The best load for a .243 from those tables, the bullet is dropping pretty quick beyond 400m and has stuff all energy left... Still appears to be moving quick enough though so I guess it's doable if you don't mind shooting what is basically a volley at that point.

[Mr Merde]

45-70, 70 gns of black powder, 535 gn projectile, large rifle magnum primer, WW brass.

Muzzle velocity 1350 fps
Trajectory similar to that of a rainbow.
Drop of 50 ft at 1000 yards.
Accurate to 1 MOA at 1000 yards. (10 shots in 10")
This is with open sights not scopes.

Billy Dixon in 1875 shoit an Indian out of the saddle at 1500 yards with a 50-70.

Yanks are getting some amazing scores with BP and heavy bullets.

I have watched british BP shooters with muzzle loaders, shoot MOA at 1200 yards a t Bisley, Surrey.

If you look at a modern round eg .308

2700 fps at muzzle, 700 fps at 1000 yards.
45-70 BP 1350 at muzzle , 900 fps at 1000 yards, a loss of only 450 fps as opposed to about 2000 fps from the 308.

Bullet of 535 gns will be less affected by wind than one of 180 gns.

Big is better.

50 BMG has a bullet of 750 gns.


Chris

[jono035]

Bloody hell, that's pretty impressive... Something to be said for big, heavy bullets at long range I guess.

[Mr Merde]

Bloody hell, that's pretty impressive... Something to be said for big, heavy bullets at long range I guess.

We are still learning what our ancestors knew 120 years ago.

I recently read an article on long range target shootring in the UK in the 1890's.

The target was the size of a barn wall but it was shot at a range of 3 miles. Thats 5km.

Scores were telephoned back to the firing point, from memory the bull was 6' in diameter and they were scoring it.

Shutzen competitions were shot at 200 yards in a standing position and were scored on the number of vbulls hit. A bull not in the centre probably meant you were out of the running.

Black powder of today doesnt come near the quality iyt was at the end of the 19th century.

In the US Civil war the Confederacy armed thier snipers with Whitworth rifles in .451 calibre hexagonal bullets. They were accurate to 1000 yards. All thius from a front stuffer.

The Jacobs double rifle was accurate to 2000 yards and fired an explosive bullet.

[Swoop]

Found this on Te Net today. Interesting stuff, but they have been playing around with the .700Win Magnum for some time now.
It also confirms the 5.56mm info in Afganistan. Seems to be relegated to urban situations and out in "the bush" the 7.62mm reigns supreme.


The U.S. Army has ordered 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for its newly modified M-24 sniper rifles, as well as similar SOCOMs Mk13 models. The new ammo will cost about $1.30 per round. The .300 Winchester magnum will be ordered in minimum lots of 56,160 rounds (117 boxes of 480 rounds each). The entire 38.4 million rounds will last a while.
All this is in response to requests from snipers for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 30 pound .50 caliber rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). Thus the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.

The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The 300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. An improved version of the round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so.

There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Dutch snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. British snipers in Afghanistan are also using the new round, having converted many of their 7.62mm sniper rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.

This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Two years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.

The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)

The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.

The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed..

[wbks]

Are there any Pig/Deer/Goat hunters here?

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Yip I chase deer around, armed tramping is what I call it. I hunt the Kaweka's
mainly, but I've hunted Pureora, Kaimanawa's, Urewera's and the Kaimai's.
I generally only get to play with my centrefires 4-5 times a year. I shoot my .22's weekly at an indoor range. The trouble with Akld is that the nearest deer
are 2 hours away.

[wbks]

So what's the deal with places you can and cant hunt in? I was told that people hunt (or used to) hunt in the Ruahine Ranges? So if you were going to hunt there, you would just take a rifle, fluro vest (if only to put on what ever you kill before you get shot carrying it by another optimistic hunter lol), and some supplys taking care not to shoot too close to any houses or anything and go hunting?

[Wolf]

Yip I chase deer around, armed tramping is what I call it.

LOL. Yep, that about sums it up. I've taken a few armed tramping trips around Te Miro and some other place the name of which escapes me - sort of like the deer and goats, really.

Go for a walk with a firearm, look at the scenery, give up all hope and shoot the crap out of the emptied ammo box, carry the shredded box and empty brass out in your pocket, go home.