Trump - 4 more years of this at least...

[pritch]

I think it's time to talk about the dishonesty going on here.

You can see the little Evidence marker and the storage box - which means this is after:

1: The FBI broke the Lock they asked to be placed on the Storage Location
2: The FBI have removed the Storage box from the location
3: Have removed everything from the Storage Box
4: Have arranged it on the floor (so that all the headers are visible)

And yet somehow, despite the detail in the picture telling you that this is clearly done by the FBI, you make a post as if this is somehow a negative thing against Trump?

I often make the point at how there is an irrational hatred of Trump - And this is a perfect example of it - Despite the picture clearly being staged for evidentiary reasons by the FBI (which is their want in a situation like this) - you use it to make a dig at Trump.

I shouldn't do this but here goes... You seem to have missed a lot of what had been going on. The documents were not all in a locked room. Some were, others were in the drawer of Trump's desk. Some others were stored in the swimming pool 'shed.' They were in multiple unsecure places. The Washington Post is tryng to establish what room that photo was taken in. All of your points above are unfounded speculation on your part.

Trump has asked for a "Special Master" some two weeks after the search warrant was executed. That is ridiculous, the time to do that is when the warrant is produced. For those who don't know, in an instance like this there are two teams involved: the investigation team and a 'taint' team. The taint team goes through the papers first and remove anything potentially privileged. If a special master (a retired judge?) was appointed that person would decide what was priveleged and what was not. It's too late for that, that work has already been done. Whether Trump's lawyers are incompetent (highly likely) or he is just playing for time, I don't know.

The 'inexperienced' Trump appointed federal judge told the Justice Department that she was thinking of granting the request. The DoJ replied with 36 page document, almost double the length of the normal reply, incicating why that was inappropriate. To make sure the judge got the message they included illustrations such as the one I posted here.
We await the judges decision.

This morning I see that even the Fox talking heads Karl Rove and Steve Doocey are makiing the point that Trump had the documents illegally.

There is no 'irrational' hatred of Trump, he is a life long conman and should never have been allowed near high office. That's not a secret.

[TheDemonLord]

I shouldn't do this but here goes... You seem to have missed a lot of what had been going on. The documents were not all in a locked room. Some were, others were in the drawer of Trump's desk. Some others were stored in the swimming pool 'shed.' They were in multiple unsecure places. The Washington Post is tryng to establish what room that photo was taken in. All of your points above are unfounded speculation on your part.

Okay - let's take the last part first:

If the WaPo is trying to establish where that was taken, then the prudent and rational thing would be to wait. However, if you wanted to dishonestly smear them, then you'd do exactly what you did.

Furthermore - where the photo was taking proves nothing, because if I'm taking a document box out of Storage and spreading things on the floor to photograph it's contents, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that I might move it to make the job of photographing the contents easier.

As for 'Unfounded Speculation' - How on earth is this unfounded? Or are we using some special definition of Unfounded where anonymous sources mean it totally happened but the actual pictures taken by the FBI aren't pictures taken by the FBI?

Now - onto the next bit - you have Documents, in a desk drawer, in a private office. I'm going out on a limb here - but a private office is generally Locked and a Desk Drawer is generally locked.

It's also where he kept his Passports. I dunno about you, but I keep important documents my Passport, Marriage cert etc. in a Locked container in a secure location in my house. Hardly meeting the criteria of 'Unsecured'.

The Swimming Pool Shed is, again, a lie from the Washington Post (By the way - got any proof of that Nuclear Claim yet? No? Why do you still believe these lies?) - the reality is that there was a locked Storage unit near the pool. Which is not the same as 'a Swimming Pool shed'.

This morning I see that even the Fox talking heads Karl Rove and Steve Doocey are makiing the point that Trump had the documents illegally.

I don't watch Fox news - I have seen some legal analysis that essentially says 'If you are applying the strictest possible interpretation of the rules, then there could be a case against Trump' - however, many of them are saying that such an interpretation would be unprecedented and would be a massive act of bad faith.

They also point out that this reeks of Desperation because they know they are going to loose massively in the Mid-Terms and unless Biden has a Bush-Esque September 11th Moment, he is going get voted out next round - they are using ever malicious tactic to try and stop Trump from running - because they know they will loose.

There is no 'irrational' hatred of Trump, he is a life long conman and should never have been allowed near high office. That's not a secret.

And yet still did infinitely better as President than the current one.

Less Covid Deaths, Less Wars, Less Inflation, Better Economy, Less Petrol Prices, Less Supply chain issues.

That's not a secret either.

Also - a Lifelong Conman who despite the most intense, politically motivated investigation - still has not been successfully prosecuted for a Crime. Either he's the worlds greatest Conman that he can commit crimes and not get caught (and so is machiavellian enough to run for high office and has the right qualifications to be a Politician - a Liar and a Cheat) or he's innocent and you are wrong.

[pritch]

Okay - let's take the last part first:

If the WaPo is trying to establish where that was taken, then the prudent and rational thing would be to wait. However, if you wanted to dishonestly smear them, then you'd do exactly what you did.

Furthermore - where the photo was taking proves nothing, because if I'm taking a document box out of Storage and spreading things on the floor to photograph it's contents, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that I might move it to make the job of photographing the contents easier.

As for 'Unfounded Speculation' - How on earth is this unfounded? Or are we using some special definition of Unfounded where anonymous sources mean it totally happened but the actual pictures taken by the FBI aren't pictures taken by the FBI?

Now - onto the next bit - you have Documents, in a desk drawer, in a private office. I'm going out on a limb here - but a private office is generally Locked and a Desk Drawer is generally locked.

It's also where he kept his Passports. I dunno about you, but I keep important documents my Passport, Marriage cert etc. in a Locked container in a secure location in my house. Hardly meeting the criteria of 'Unsecured'.

The Swimming Pool Shed is, again, a lie from the Washington Post (By the way - got any proof of that Nuclear Claim yet? No? Why do you still believe these lies?) - the reality is that there was a locked Storage unit near the pool. Which is not the same as 'a Swimming Pool shed'.



I don't watch Fox news - I have seen some legal analysis that essentially says 'If you are applying the strictest possible interpretation of the rules, then there could be a case against Trump' - however, many of them are saying that such an interpretation would be unprecedented and would be a massive act of bad faith.

They also point out that this reeks of Desperation because they know they are going to loose massively in the Mid-Terms and unless Biden has a Bush-Esque September 11th Moment, he is going get voted out next round - they are using ever malicious tactic to try and stop Trump from running - because they know they will loose.



And yet still did infinitely better as President than the current one.

Less Covid Deaths, Less Wars, Less Inflation, Better Economy, Less Petrol Prices, Less Supply chain issues.

That's not a secret either.

Also - a Lifelong Conman who despite the most intense, politically motivated investigation - still has not been successfully prosecuted for a Crime. Either he's the worlds greatest Conman that he can commit crimes and not get caught (and so is machiavellian enough to run for high office and has the right qualifications to be a Politician - a Liar and a Cheat) or he's innocent and you are wrong.

Desperate work there. It really doesn't matter who put the documents on the floor. It also doesn't matter which room it is, as long as it is at Mar a Lago, although apparently the WP want to know. The point is that Trump - and one or more of his lawyers, said all classified documents had been surrendered. That photo is proof of a crime.

The nuclear documents were primarily of interest mainly because Trump said he'd declassified any documents he had. He hadn't, but he had no power to classify nuclear documents. That's all moot now because none of the charges listed by the FBI require the documents to be classified. The fact that he had them at all is a crime.

Nothing in the rest of your post deserves the dignity of a response. Meanwhile we wait.

[TheDemonLord]

Desperate work there. It really doesn't matter who put the documents on the floor. It also doesn't matter which room it is, as long as it is at Mar a Lago, although apparently the WP want to know. The point is that Trump - and one or more of his lawyers, said all classified documents had been surrendered. That photo is proof of a crime.

So firstly - you were the one who posted the picture and claimed it as proof that Trump was disorganized and careless, and now you are trying to walk it back by (when reality was pointed out) that it doesn't matter who put the documents on the floor nor does it matter which room?

Please.

You're missing the part where the FBI said 'Please put a lock on it and await further instruction.

Not to mention the Memo which I posted earlier, available on the White House website, signed by the President, saying he was moving and declassifying documents to Mar-a-Lago (which he does have the absolute right to do so).

The nuclear documents were primarily of interest mainly because Trump said he'd declassified any documents he had. He hadn't, but he had no power to classify nuclear documents.

What.
Nuclear.
Documents.

You keep repeating this, yet there is no evidence that has thus far been produced that there was anything Nuclear.

You may as well be saying 'Well, Trump's posession of the Ark of the Covenant from Indiana Jones is of interest, because only God has the divine power to say who has it' - There is the same level of Proof for that absurd claim as there is for your absurd claim.

That's all moot now because none of the charges listed by the FBI require the documents to be classified. The fact that he had them at all is a crime.

Welll....

Just hold up a minute there Hoss. Since you are saying the FBI are correct in all things - let's just have a read about what they have to say, shall we?

Perhaps about a similar politically contentious case, in recent times, where someone high profile and perhaps a presidential candidate might have 'mishandled' Classified Documents? Let's refresh ourselves with what the standard is for a prosecution and therefore for a 'Crime'....

https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-relea...-e-mail-system

Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information.

So, to recap - as per the FBI Hillary and Co were "Extremely Careless in their handling" - so - in your opinion Pritch - You'd no-doubt agree that if everything you've copy-pasta'd from the Washington Post is true - and that it was stored in a Pool Shed - that this was constitute "Extremely Careless Handling", Yes?

From the group of 30,000 e-mails returned to the State Department, 110 e-mails in 52 e-mail chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received. Eight of those chains contained information that was Top Secret at the time they were sent; 36 chains contained Secret information at the time; and eight contained Confidential information, which is the lowest level of classification. Separate from those, about 2,000 additional e-mails were “up-classified” to make them Confidential; the information in those had not been classified at the time the e-mails were sent.

So, out of 30,000 emails, 110 had issues and 2,000 were retrospectively classified, so all up 2110 emails, out of 30,000.

I think we can say that this is on-par with 300 documents out of 15 boxes of documents.

Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case. Prosecutors necessarily weigh a number of factors before bringing charges. There are obvious considerations, like the strength of the evidence, especially regarding intent. Responsible decisions also consider the context of a person’s actions, and how similar situations have been handled in the past.

In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice. We do not see those things here.

There we have the standard, as set out by the then director of the FBI, James Comey in regards to the handling of Classified Material.

And to refresh your memory, Clinton didn't merely remove documents, she had an entirely separate Email Server built and maintained. If that does not reach the level of Intent needed for prosecution, as per the statement of the FBI, then you've got a bit of a problem for you calling it a Crime, don't we - because the standard set-forth by the FBI is pretty clear - Mistakes happen - it's only when you are deliberately doing it or you've got such cast amount of info that it reaches the threshold for Prosecution.

And now a direct question to you Pritch - let's test your integrity:

If you genuinely believe that Trump has committed a crime, then I'd like (in reference to the above standard) for you to acknowledge that clearly Hillary also committed a Crime and that she should be subject to the same treatment as Trump.

If you genuinely believe the FBI and that Hillary didn't deserve to be prosecuted, then I'd like you to acknowledge that neither does Trump.

And before Husa or anyone else posts - My opinion on the Email Server was 'Any attempt to deliberately bypass corporate security measures is grounds for immediate termination' - I never made much of a fuss about what was or was not on the Server - only that it's mere existence was evidence of doing something wrong.

Nothing in the rest of your post deserves the dignity of a response. Meanwhile we wait.

Does the statements made by the FBI deserve the 'Dignity of a Response'?


Final point - which you may or may not be aware of - The FBI Agent who surpressed the Hunter Biden Laptop and opened this investigation into Trump has been forced out of the Organization, why?

POLITICAL.
BIAS.

[pritch]

In case any one is interested? This relates to the subpoena the DoJ issued to Trump, and which he ignored, which was part of the reason the search warrant was issued. You don't have to watch the whole thing. The relevant portion starts at 8.00 minutes and goes to about the ten minute mark. It won't take a large chunk of you life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMbtNbKFC2I

[TheDemonLord]

Trump has asked for a "Special Master" some two weeks after the search warrant was executed. That is ridiculous, the time to do that is when the warrant is produced. For those who don't know, in an instance like this there are two teams involved: the investigation team and a 'taint' team. The taint team goes through the papers first and remove anything potentially privileged. If a special master (a retired judge?) was appointed that person would decide what was priveleged and what was not. It's too late for that, that work has already been done. Whether Trump's lawyers are incompetent (highly likely) or he is just playing for time, I don't know.

Ridiculous, was it?


Once again, Time vindicates Trump as being correct.

[1/32 man]

Ridiculous, was it?


Once again, Time vindicates Trump as being correct.

I dont think "correct" is the right word.....successful in bringing a time delay maybe, a diversion, a smoke screen, a ploy.

Let's see what happens next and who the poor chump is that gets the job.

I like those statements that compare you and me to Trumpe....ie you and I would have been locked up by now.

[TheDemonLord]

I dont think "correct" is the right word.....successful in bringing a time delay maybe, a diversion, a smoke screen, a ploy.

I mean correct in the sense that the media and legal sources that Pritch listens/watches/consumes claimed that this idea was "Ridiculous" - yet since it has been granted, it's clearly not ridiculous, it has sufficient merit for the Judge to approve it.

Hence my comment - Time proves Trump correct, yet again.

Let's see what happens next and who the poor chump is that gets the job.

There's a number of Possibilities.

If Trump gets back in, there's a good chance he will go hell-for-leather, he can't run for a 3rd term and will set about uprooting all the entrenched Left-Wing Political types who hold un-elected positions in such a way that would make McCarthy weep tears of Joy from his Grave. The Left will go bananas and make all sorts of accusations about tyranny/dictatorship behavior etc. And not without good reason, mind.
The Right will simply turn round and say 'Good for the goose, Good for the Gander". And it will be glorious to behold

He might go as far as to shut down the FBI (Nothing as permanent as a temporary Government initiative...) and basically go in and carve out some of the corruption in the US political system - with a view that afterwards, someone like Ron DeSantis comes along and tidies up afterwards.

Trump could also get back into power and essentially make a few high profile resignations happen and tell the other government Depts to pull their heads in and stop being so biased and then re-implement all of the Energy and other changes that had worked so well (that Biden screwed up). Perhaps even adding an Amendment to the Constitution about a right to Energy.

The Democrats might win, in which case the US will continue on it's long slide towards a Socialist 'paradise', right up until the shooting starts - then I've got my money on the side that loves the 2nd Amendment and does most of the Farming.

Or, you might get an actual proper Democrat who can cast out all the Extremists in the party and govern as a Centre-Left, non-Marxist party - but I'm trying to keep it in the realm of possibility here.

I like those statements that compare you and me to Trumpe....ie you and I would have been locked up by now.

I mean, there's a fair amount of truth to that, people in positions of power have discretion and advantages most don't. Same applies to the other side as well.

[pete376403]

I mean correct in the sense that the media and legal sources that Pritch listens/watches/consumes claimed that this idea was "Ridiculous" - yet since it has been granted, it's clearly not ridiculous, it has sufficient merit for the Judge to approve it..

"the judge" - you mean "A judge", All of whom are political appointees, regardless of the fact that they are supposed to uphold "the law"
Trumps legal team found a judge that agrees with them, that doesn't mean the the FBI won't find a superior court judge who can over-ride that on appeal. Trumps supporters might have deep pockets, but the Governments are deeper. If the Governments action against trump is successful, "the judge" may well find himself running a court in Buttfuck, Nebraska.

[TheDemonLord]

"the judge" - you mean "A judge", All of whom are political appointees, regardless of the fact that they are supposed to uphold "the law"
Trumps legal team found a judge that agrees with them, that doesn't mean the the FBI won't find a superior court judge who can over-ride that on appeal. Trumps supporters might have deep pockets, but the Governments are deeper. If the Governments action against trump is successful, "the judge" may well find himself running a court in Buttfuck, Nebraska.

Even a Biased judge (if we are going with that), still has to make an argument with a Legal basis.

The point was - the request wasn't, on face value, ridiculous.

I doubt they'd try a superior court, because they run the risk of Trump and his Team making it a constitutional rights issue and taking it to the Supreme Court - which I dare say would not look upon this whole farce favourably.

[husaberg]

..........
what is interesting about the Special master ruling is it limits sererly Trumps teasm rights of appeal as they cant claim with any degree of plausibility oh i was unfairly treated.
What's interesting is when it trumps team found guilty, its a conspiracy..... when they make any decision that might advantage him it oh look its law.....

[Grumph]

"the judge" - you mean "A judge", All of whom are political appointees, regardless of the fact that they are supposed to uphold "the law"
Trumps legal team found a judge that agrees with them, that doesn't mean the the FBI won't find a superior court judge who can over-ride that on appeal. Trumps supporters might have deep pockets, but the Governments are deeper. If the Governments action against trump is successful, "the judge" may well find himself running a court in Buttfuck, Nebraska.

As i read it, the (female) judge saw two grounds. Priveliged communications lawyer - client. And a ridiculous one - priveliged communication as President with the Executive branch of the govt. Who are represented by the DoJ and FBI. Striking out on uncharted ground on that one. DoJ may well get a ruling on appeal to have the Master's duties severely limited.

[pritch]

"the judge" - you mean "A judge", All of whom are political appointees, regardless of the fact that they are supposed to uphold "the law"
Trumps legal team found a judge that agrees with them, that doesn't mean the the FBI won't find a superior court judge who can over-ride that on appeal. Trumps supporters might have deep pockets, but the Governments are deeper. If the Governments action against trump is successful, "the judge" may well find himself running a court in Buttfuck, Nebraska.

A judge, who was rated by the US Bar Association as 'unqualified' and who at best is considered 'inexperienced', (that latter a major understatement), has ordered the Attorney General of the US to stop an investigation. The Attorney General is the top lawyer in the country, the president's right hand man on legal matters, but OK.
She is blazing a unique judicial trail. She is only 41 now but if she never does anything else she has a place in history. Not one she'd particularly want but...

Her ruling, which is legally "unconventional", contains a landmine or two so we await developments. Developments there should be.

Anyone, well almost anyone, who wants to know why her ruling is odd can check YouTube. Legal opinions from qualified people are available, suggested starting points might be the reactions of Harry Littman and Glen Kirschner.

[TheDemonLord]

As i read it, the (female) judge saw two grounds. Priveliged communications lawyer - client. And a ridiculous one - priveliged communication as President with the Executive branch of the govt. Who are represented by the DoJ and FBI. Striking out on uncharted ground on that one. DoJ may well get a ruling on appeal to have the Master's duties severely limited.

When it comes to Privilege (in the legal sense) - my understanding is that the courts always lean heavily towards protecting it. Even in the most stretched and tenuous circumstances. As such, the second one may not be ridiculous as it seems.

[TheDemonLord]

..........
what is interesting about the Special master ruling is it limits sererly Trumps teasm rights of appeal as they cant claim with any degree of plausibility oh i was unfairly treated.
What's interesting is when it trumps team found guilty, its a conspiracy..... when they make any decision that might advantage him it oh look its law.....

But Trump hasn't been found Guilty.

Of anything thus far.

Most investigated and most acquitted President in history.