Wire (cheese cutter) barriers

[Swoop]

Instead get those wires wrapped in plastic and have them replaced with recycled sleepyhead inner-sprung mattresses at a later date - as tax allows.

That sounds like the solution that NZ will adopt. The cheapest option available... (as always).

Cullen and Klerke have to save those tax dollars for vote-buying at the next election, NOT wasting them on something trivial as road safety.

[Usarka]

Just heard on the news that a truck has gone through the barrier at Papakura into oncoming traffic going the other way, causing carnage. So they're not safe for trucks and not safe for motorcyclists. Hello?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/...ectid=10471503

Here's hoping that this issue might get a bit more support now that it isn't just us bad bikers being affected......

[Brett]

Well Mr Transit...they stop cars & trucks...casrs maybe...trucks? - Yeah Right.

FYI for those that dont know...a rubbish truck went over the barrier into oncoming traffic this morning not far from where Dan was killed. Fuel to our fire.

[ManDownUnder]

I think you missed something. His post contributed nothing to the thread other than a likelihood that it would inflame others. He could have given some justification why the barriers should stay. Though from a bikers perspective I can't think of any positive reasons why they should stay.

If this had happened to the son of a high profile person it's likely something would change, and quickly, and you wouldn't be getting Transit NZ coming out with such an insensitive response either probably. They'd probably say they'd commissioned some investigation and study into possible changes and improvements.

The argument for a lack of change due to cost vs. probability is just crap. There are numerous examples of change that have come about because of rare events where someone gets hurt or killed, and something is done about it, and pronto.

Respectfully disagree.

His post simply raised the fact there are other points of view and I for one would like to know what they are so I can take them into consideration when making up my own mind about this. I don't know it all - I don't pretend to and I'm sure as hell not going to shut down anyone that's able to teach me something.

So he didn't say anything... probably a good move too. KB has this wonderful tendency to kick the crap out of people before they've finished their sentence. And to dare (p/t) to disagree with the majority on such a sensitive issue is bound to boost the passions involved.

So he stood up, said he disagreed but wouldn't get in the way of what he called the majority is not a bad way of dealing with it. I'd still love to hear his side of the story but not hearing it isn't going to kill me.

[Badjelly]

Someone posted a short message saying (paraphrase) "I disagree with what you're saying, but to avoid diverting the discussion, I won't explain my reasons". The result is predictable: discussion diverted into pros and cons of this message. Hmmm.

Until he wants to say what he thinks and why, let's ignore him.

[digsaw]

Trucks?? no friggin way going by the news this mornin

[imdying]

I don't know anything about cheese cutters... I've seen them, and thought to myself, 'that'd hurt to hit'.

Are they keeping cars from coliding? Many cars? Are they cost effective compared to the alternatives (armco?).

Are we having this conversation because;
- Someone fell off as a result of external factors, and died when they hit one,
- Or because someone was using the road unsuitably (wheelies, speed, whatever) and died as a result of losing control and hitting one?

It matters because it changes the justification for getting rid of them. Sure falling off when it's not your fault and hitting one resulting in death would suck arse in a big way, but if they're saving the lives of other motorists (yes, even cars) in reasonable numbers, then that must be offset against a small(?) number of motorcyclists dying on them as a result of their own actions. Sure that seems a bit utilitarianist, but what is the greater good?

Do we have any facts to make a decision against? What happened? How many lives have they saved? What do they cost? What are the alternatives?

/edit: grammar!!

[bert_is_evil]

It matters because it changes the justification for getting rid of them. Sure falling off when it's not your fault and hitting one resulting in death would suck arse in a big way, but if they're saving the lives of other motorists (yes, even cars) in reasonable numbers, then that must be offset against a small(?) number of motorcyclists dying on them as a result of their own actions. Sure that seems a bit utilitarianist, but what is the greater good?

What you're saying would make sense if it were a case of we can either have cheesecutters or nothing at all, however that's not the situation - there are safer options that cost a bit more so the decision to make is "do we spend more and save drivers and riders lives, or save money and just save drivers lives"

[imdying]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc

[Ixion]

Developments. Just had a call from Radio Live (? I think ? Some radio show) , fronted by Bill Ralston, wanting a phone interview at 4pm today.

For the record my present position is

BRONZ and responsible motorcyclists do not support aggressive or disruptive protest. However motorcyclists are angry and concerned about Transit's indifference to the danger that the cheesecutters pose ,and some form of visble protest is inevitable

If the wire barriers are to be used they must be made safer by some form of sheathing.

Any decision to install wire barriers should explicitly factor the increased danger to motorcyclists into the cost benefit calculation , and recognise the increasing numbers of motorcycles on the roads (at present I think the increased danger to motorcycles is ignored).

Transit need to enter into dialogue with the motorcycling community and stop denying the problem exists.

Speed is an irrelevant argument since the barriers are potentially lethal at 100kph.

Wire barriers should ALWAYS be used with the optimal set backs, as called for by Transit's own standards .


(Query ? Should we argue that wire barriers should NOT be used in 100kph areas ? )

Road safety initiatives that increase safety for some road users at the expense of increased danger for other road users are not acceptable. Human lives are not a negotiable currency.


Watch this space

[MSTRS:Me]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc

Yes indeed. But this attitude seems to be accepting of the proven fact that if a motorcyclist hits one of these vile things, it is guaranteed that s/he will lose limbs at a minimum. There are alternatives or a 'fix' for the wire system that give motorcyclists a better chance of survival. Wouldn't you like to see something that works for all motorists??

[Krayy]

I don't know anything about cheese cutters... I've seen them, and thought to myself, 'that'd hurt to hit'.
*snip*

I had the same feeling go over the bridge the other day in the outside lane of the southbound clip on, and realised that if I got blown seawards, my bum was about 10cms below the height of the rail and I'd probably go for a 150m high-dive

The inner lane barriers are just as bad height wise, as I'm sure you'd flip over the concrete barrier, or do real damage on the steel fence where th main bridge meets the clip ons.

[vifferman]

As part of living in a small backwater country, I accept we don't have endless dollars to spend. We could always spend more, better seal, better signage, etc etc

You seem to be forgetting that for YEARS we've contributed a vastly larger amount in road user charges than has ever been spent on sensible engineering. The money WAS and is available - it just keeps getting diverted to other projects, like funding the professionally idle, pay rises for uncivil servants and the like.

[imdying]

There are alternatives or a 'fix' for the wire system that give motorcyclists a better chance of survival. Wouldn't you like to see something that works for all motorists??

Yeah, what's the deal with these plastic covers??

[MSTRS:Me]

Yeah, what's the deal with these plastic covers??

Retrofitted in other countries that use the cheesecutters. Those countries (along with the ones that have/are removing this system) at least acknowledge that motorcyclists are important too.