The fascist regime that made you a moron: Thanks dJonkey

[Oscar]

No, I prefer my explanation.
But you are dumb enough to refer to a tinfoil (2 words) cap (usually hat, but I'll let that slide).

Tinfoil hat:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil+hat
And if you were paying attention, you'll see I've previously substituted chapeau and bonnet as well as cap for hat.

[mashman]

Tinfoil hat:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil+hat
And if you were paying attention, you'll see I've previously substituted chapeau and bonnet as well as cap for hat.

Tin Foil Hat (the #1 search result for either spelling) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat)
Never seen you use any of them there foreign versions... irrespective, you should know better.

[Brian d marge]

You're not wrong - you do make small points.
And if you're suggesting that the Treasury makes Govt. policy, do you have any proof of this insult to democracy outside a statement of intent?
The fkin thing is called statement of intent 2012 to 2017, ie what they are going to do
The election is next year ...so
They are; A going to do what they say they will
Or B completely rewrite their statement of intent
This of course is independent of whoever wins the next election because it has already been written;
snip ( page22)

The immediate priority is the proposed Initial Public Offering (IPO) of up to 49% of Mighty River Power in
2012/13. Thereafter, our main priority is to apply the mixed ownership model to Genesis Power Ltd,
Meridian Energy Ltd and Solid Energy NZ Ltd.

now this is from the treasury NOT national or labour .............( so I say again WHO is calling the shots here?)


If these are "small points" I would hate to see your major areas of concern

More facts provided by facts-r-us

stephen

[HenryDorsetCase]

I dunno BtB, the fact that his user name (and hero apparently) is a character from a book who's a druggie computer hacker is funny.


Er, why is that funny?

My hero is more William Gibson than Henry Dorsett Case though

[BoristheBiter]

How do you get "wasn't" correct and "your" wrong in a seven word sentence? Wake up, son.

Years of practice.
I just wanted Hitcher to join the thread.

[mashman]

If the Greens where ever going to be a disappointment for me (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/17044188/greens-could-support-gcsb-laws/), then they've shown their political colours today.

"The Government may offer New Zealand First a deal in order to get support for its controversial spying agency - and the Greens say they will vote for it if they get offered similar concessions.". Oversight :killingme... spy's spying on the spy's? Give me a fuckin break. Yup, disappointing.

Given that this report from yesterday said (http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/greater-powers-gcsb-proposed-5429764)

"Normally if you stuff up you get penalised or have restrictions placed on you. John Key has gone the other way by rewarding incompetence at the GCSB with a greater right to spy," Green Party Co-leader Dr Russel Norman said."

[oneofsix]

they are just telling it like it is. It is ok to spy on other NZers as long as they can check it is not their mates that are being spyed on. Yes it is their true colours but no real surprise as to what they are.

[Banditbandit]

The Greens arer selling out our right NOT to be spied on by our Government ...

No price is acceptable ... if the Greens go down this path they will never get my vote again !!!

[HenryDorsetCase]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Ben Franklin.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

[mashman]

The Greens arer selling out our right NOT to be spied on by our Government ...

No price is acceptable ... if the Greens go down this path they will ever get my vot again !!!

Agreed. Here's me thinking that the Greens where generally human beings that where "part-time" politicians, not vice versa.

and I cannot spread again

[mashman]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Ben Franklin.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

That shit use to mean fuck all to me. I'm glad that times are changing.

[BoristheBiter]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Ben Franklin.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

what essential liberty will be given up?

[Brian d marge]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Ben Franklin.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

oh boy are those words coming back to haunt the average kiwi

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

what essential liberty will be given up?

try sticking your head up , and see what happens

examples ?

my old mum being pulled aside in the U s of an A and given the run down ,,,,,because shes a union member, she is 70 and she was given a good questioning !

try saying that America is the great satan ...,,or not following IMF directives......thats an unexplained plane crash ......

try not paying taxes ( yes; student loans are "a con tax" )

try building a house ! ( hey I want to build an "earth ship" out of used tyres ......)

try removing oneself from society , ie going self sufficient and see how far you get .....

try buying the nieghbours goat a beer and ,,,no wait thats a different forum .....my bad sorry

stephen

[BoristheBiter]

try sticking your head up , and see what happens

examples ?

my old mum being pulled aside in the U s of an A and given the run down ,,,,,because shes a union member, she is 70 and she was given a good questioning !

try saying that America is the great satan ...,,or not following IMF directives......thats an unexplained plane crash ......

try not paying taxes ( yes; student loans are "a con tax" )

try building a house ! ( hey I want to build an "earth ship" out of used tyres ......)

try removing oneself from society , ie going self sufficient and see how far you get .....

try buying the nieghbours goat a beer and ,,,no wait thats a different forum .....my bad sorry

stephen

Yeah......na that's just bollocks.
Please come back before you start drinking again.

And FYI we are talking NZ not anywhere else.

[Banditbandit]

Let's see .. try the Aziz Choudry/Dacvid Small and the SIS case ...

The SIS got caught with their pants down on that one ...

http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/choudry.htm

http://www.converge.org.nz/watchdog/94/7david.htm

Go here and read the "public profile" section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Security_Intelligence_Service

Not hard to find stuff if you bother to look ..

[HenryDorsetCase]

Not hard to find stuff if you bother to look ..

yeppers. Its a police state already, but most people are in prisons built of debt or greed and dont see it. (I am MR Akzle)

[Banditbandit]

Don't forget the bars built by the church, the walls built by education (fuck it - I work in that sector!!!) ... and the maintenance by the propaganda system (hiding itself as the News Media ...)

[BoristheBiter]

yeppers. Its a police state already, but most people are in prisons built of debt or greed and dont see it. (I am MR Akzle)

and you would know what a police state was of course. tui add me thinks.
If it was there would be no lawyers......not that it would be such a bad thing.


Don't forget the bars built by the church, the walls built by education (fuck it - I work in that sector!!!) ... and the maintenance by the propaganda system (hiding itself as the News Media ...)

Fuck me and you guys call everyone else sheep.

Just believe any old propaganda shit.
As long as it is anti-anything you guys swallow it hook line and sinker.

At least the aluminium foil company's make something out of it.

The walls and bars you believe are there are of your own making not anyone else's

[Banditbandit]

The walls and bars you believe are there are of your own making not anyone else's

Naaa ... I smashed them down years ago .. now I dont believe anything - follow no propoganda .... especially not the leftwing bullshit propoganda - they are not even good at it ...

[Brian d marge]

Yeah......na that's just bollocks.
Please come back before you start drinking again.

And FYI we are talking NZ not anywhere else.

Snip
"try removing oneself from society , ie going self sufficient and see how far you get .. ,"

it aint bollox, some smarterer people than u and I have been debating this way back before the internet , a couple of froggies went at it for a while too !

, One mr Lysander spooner tried it once , and that was before it went pear shaped and one could be free(r)

simple one for ya , try not paying some taxes that you disagree with ,,,, ( a simplistic case but highlights how unfree you is )

Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

Snip
"try removing oneself from society , ie going self sufficient and see how far you get .. ,"

it aint bollox, some smarterer people than u and I have been debating this way back before the internet , a couple of froggies went at it for a while too !

, One mr Lysander spooner tried it once , and that was before it went pear shaped and one could be free(r)

simple one for ya , try not paying some taxes that you disagree with ,,,, ( a simplistic case but highlights how unfree you is )

Stephen

Why would i want to? I quite like what society has to offer, warts and all.
and Akzle says he does so it must be so.

Quite easy not to pay a tax that you disagree with, ITS the consequence you have to live with. just look at those the ride without rego. all free to do so.(a simplistic case but highlights how free you are)

with freedom comes responsibility and i think it is that that you have problems with.

[oldrider]

Why would i want to? I quite like what society has to offer, warts and all.
and Akzle says he does so it must be so.

Quite easy not to pay a tax that you disagree with, ITS the consequence you have to live with. just look at those the ride without rego. all free to do so.(a simplistic case but highlights how free you are)

with freedom comes responsibility and accountability i think it is that that you have problems with.

You (accidentally) left the other very important one out of the trilogy!

[puddytat]

Politicians seem to be ,to coin a new phrase...,Demopaths

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/05/07/fear-fire-foes-awake/

[mashman]

what essential liberty will be given up?

My loss of privacy because businesses are too fuckin tight and too fuckin stupid to protect themselves from cyber attacks. My loss of privacy has nothing to do with me, it does not protect anything that I hold dear, it does not afford me any extra security. So why should I lose my privacy so people can make money or indeed can decide that protecting the economy is more important than my freedom? fascist morons.

[BoristheBiter]

My loss of privacy because businesses are too fuckin tight and too fuckin stupid to protect themselves from cyber attacks. My loss of privacy has nothing to do with me, it does not protect anything that I hold dear, it does not afford me any extra security. So why should I lose my privacy so people can make money or indeed can decide that protecting the economy is more important than my freedom? fascist morons.

:rofl::rofl: sorry but I bet you are spied on more by your ISP then the GCSB.:weird:

Or your bank.

you tinfoil brigade do make me laugh carry on the good work.

[Scuba_Steve]

:rofl::rofl: sorry but I bet you are spied on more by your ISP then the GCSB.:weird:

Or your bank.

you tinfoil brigade do make me laugh carry on the good work.


You ever thought about pulling your head out of the sand & taking those blinders off?

Might do you some good!

[Usarka]

If you've got nothing to hide then you've got nothing to fear.

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/331378/331378,1259336755,2/stock-photo-stasi-sign-security-police-in-the-gdr-41725594.jpg

[mashman]

:rofl::rofl: sorry but I bet you are spied on more by your ISP then the GCSB.:weird:

Or your bank.

you tinfoil brigade do make me laugh carry on the good work.

I have no issues with my ISP doing so as long as they're only looking for illegal activity and not viewing my emails... then sure, they can pass the information to the Police and the Police only. After all, my ISP ain't like to come and smash my door down if they deem that my words are a threat to the NZ economy.

As for tin foil hat... go tell that to the relatives of Aaron Swartz or perhaps Cameron D'Ambrosio. Whilst you may be happy with the outcomes of such legislation. I am far from happy with it.

[Brian d marge]

Why would i want to? I quite like what society has to offer, warts and all.
and Akzle says he does so it must be so.

Quite easy not to pay a tax that you disagree with, ITS the consequence you have to live with. just look at those the ride without rego. all free to do so.(a simplistic case but highlights how free you are)

with freedom comes responsibility and i think it is that that you have problems with.
Society could ( and is ) a whole lot better in a lot of other places
You have a very good point , freedom does come with responsibilities , but what kind of freedom are we talking about here , a hobbsian or the froggy ones
I'm sorry but I don't like most what's going on
I think it could it be a whole lot better
Stephen

[BoristheBiter]

I have no issues with my ISP doing so as long as they're only looking for illegal activity and not viewing my emails... then sure, they can pass the information to the Police and the Police only. After all, my ISP ain't like to come and smash my door down if they deem that my words are a threat to the NZ economy.

As for tin foil hat... go tell that to the relatives of Aaron Swartz or perhaps Cameron D'Ambrosio. Whilst you may be happy with the outcomes of such legislation. I am far from happy with it.

SO you would be happy for your ISP to spy on you without the need for a warrant and sell it off to anyone that will pay for it but not the police that needs one? great piece of logic.

Aaron Swartz hung himself after being court and didn't want to see bubba in the laundry room.
Shouldn't play with shit that could get you killed.

Cameron, what really is there to say. dumb fuck makes a video where he makes a bomb and wonders why he gets aressted.
again shouldn't play with shit that could get you killed.

you haven't made a point so please try again.

[BoristheBiter]

You ever thought about pulling your head out of the sand & taking those blinders off?

Might do you some good!

Ever stopped to think that not everything is a conspiracy?
Might do you some good.

[mashman]

SO you would be happy for your ISP to spy on you without the need for a warrant and sell it off to anyone that will pay for it but not the police that needs one? great piece of logic.

Aaron Swartz hung himself after being court and didn't want to see bubba in the laundry room.
Shouldn't play with shit that could get you killed.

Cameron, what really is there to say. dumb fuck makes a video where he makes a bomb and wonders why he gets aressted.
again shouldn't play with shit that could get you killed.

you haven't made a point so please try again.

You didn't read the Police only bit properly did you? Dunno why I'm surprised given that your contribution, sorry cop out, thus far is that it's all a conspiracy.

And how long was he going to face in jail for theft?

boobtoob is full of "How to make a bomb" videos. Why aren't they all arrested?

Yes I did. You're just another moron.

[BoristheBiter]

You didn't read the Police only bit properly did you? Dunno why I'm surprised given that your contribution, sorry cop out, thus far is that it's all a conspiracy.

You're the one crying in your nappy's about conspiracy's not me

And how long was he going to face in jail for theft?

Who fucking cares he hung himself after getting caught.

boobtoob is full of "How to make a bomb" videos. Why aren't they all arrested?

maybe he made a better bomb

Yes I did. You're just another moron.

No, you just posted more bollocks conspiracy's.

So what is the reason you would rather have your ISP (an uncontrolled private business, only in it to make money that you always say you hate) spy on you than a controlled organisation?

[Banditbandit]

If you've got nothing to hide then you've got nothing to fear.



I call BULLSHIT !!!!

Arthur Allan Thomas had nothing to hide .. but events proved he had good reason to fear ... Bill Sutch was spied on by the SIS .. and proven innocent in courts (had a lot to fear didn't he) ... but he died labelled a spy because TPTB refused to say the SIS got it wrong ... Kim.com would appear to have nothing to hide .. but he had everything to fear as well (even if he didn't know it at the time) ... David Small and Aziz Choudry had nothing to hide .. but again had everything to fear ...

"Nothing to hide nothing to worry about" a bullshit line used to support attacks on our freedom

I happen to like my freedom and privacy and resent any invasion ... whether it is from the SIS, GCSB or spyware on the net ...

[HenryDorsetCase]

I call BULLSHIT !!!!

Arthur Allan Thomas had nothing to hide .. but events proved he had good reason to fear ... Bill Sutch was spied on by the SIS .. and proven innocent in courts (had a lot to fear didn't he) ... but he died labelled a spy because TPTB refused to say the SIS got it wrong ... Kim.com would appear to have nothing to hide .. but he had everything to fear as well (even if he didn't know it at the time) ... David Small and Aziz Choudry had nothing to hide .. but again had everything to fear ...

"Nothing to hide nothing to worry about" a bullshit line used to support attacks on our freedom

I happen to like my freedom and privacy and resent any invasion ... whether it is from the SIS, GCSB or spyware on the net ...

I concur.

People need to look up what fascism actually is. because we are living it. bit by bit, day by day.

and bread and circuses distractions (for example: lead story on the news last night Aaron Dickhead Gilmore: no mention of Eric Holder (US Attorney General) over her to heavy djonkey and the lumpy minions into line and shore up their support for the RIAA's attack on the citizens of another so-called sovereign nation. Sure, we've got nothing to worry about. Except our thought crimes.

Orwell was right.

[Usarka]

I call BULLSHIT !!!!

Arthur Allan Thomas had nothing to hide .. but events proved he had good reason to fear ... Bill Sutch was spied on by the SIS .. and proven innocent in courts (had a lot to fear didn't he) ... but he died labelled a spy because TPTB refused to say the SIS got it wrong ... Kim.com would appear to have nothing to hide .. but he had everything to fear as well (even if he didn't know it at the time) ... David Small and Aziz Choudry had nothing to hide .. but again had everything to fear ...

"Nothing to hide nothing to worry about" a bullshit line used to support attacks on our freedom

I happen to like my freedom and privacy and resent any invasion ... whether it is from the SIS, GCSB or spyware on the net ...

Ummmm, i agree hence the east german stasi logo i included in my post...

[mashman]

No, you just posted more bollocks conspiracy's.

So what is the reason you would rather have your ISP (an uncontrolled private business, only in it to make money that you always say you hate) spy on you than a controlled organisation?

3:25, that's a quarter to 9 to you and no, donkeys wearing sunny's can't rely on arctic winds to provide evidence that yesterday was Tuesday.

[Brian d marge]

3:25, that's a quarter to 9 to you and no, donkeys wearing sunny's can't rely on arctic winds to provide evidence that yesterday was Tuesday.
sh1t , was yesterday Tuesday

damn

Stephen

[Banditbandit]

Ummmm, i agree hence the east german stasi logo i included in my post...

Oh ??? Sorry - subtlety is so unexpected in KBer ... it's easy to miss ..

[BoristheBiter]

3:25, that's a quarter to 9 to you and no, donkeys wearing sunny's can't rely on arctic winds to provide evidence that yesterday was Tuesday.

So that would be no, you have nothing again, so just post gibberish and hope everyone goes away.

Well guess what dildo ball bag, I aren't going anywhere.

so again, what is the reason you would rather have your ISP (an uncontrolled private business, only in it to make money that you always say you hate) spy on you than a controlled organisation?

[BoristheBiter]

I happen to like my freedom and privacy and resent any invasion ... whether it is from the SIS, GCSB or spyware on the net ...

Good luck with that.

[mashman]

So that would be no, you have nothing again, so just post gibberish and hope everyone goes away.

Well guess what dildo ball bag, I aren't going anywhere.

so again, what is the reason you would rather have your ISP (an uncontrolled private business, only in it to make money that you always say you hate) spy on you than a controlled organisation?



I have no issues with my ISP doing so as long as they're only looking for illegal activity and not viewing my emails... then sure, they can pass the information to the Police and the Police only.

Maybe you'll be lucid enough to understand the second time around. I've added a wee hint for you too.

[mashman]

sh1t , was yesterday Tuesday

damn

Stephen

Nope. May I suggest you get a new donkey and/or remove the sunny's from the one you currently have as the wind was blowing from the south at a quarter past ninety six which turns out to mean it was a Wednesday.

[Flip]

We wanted a centre right goverment, NZ voted for them then you all bitch and moan when you get the that the right is voting more power to the people in power.

Don't vote these pricks in next time, OK!.

[Winston001]

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Ben Franklin.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

To which we can add Juvenal's famous warning -

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? = Who watches the Watchers?

I agree that we should not carelessly hand over access to our private lives to unseen technologists. People outside the police.

Nevertheless we live in complex societies where a few individuals have the ability to cause great harm to many innocent people. The 9/11 deliberate crashing of aircraft into buildings (only approx 15 determined anarchists involved) and the recent Boston bombing carried out by 2 people illustrate just how vulnerable ordinary citizens are. Two people who managed to bring a major city to a standstill.

If increased technological surveillance is one of the information strands which lowers the risk of your or my children being killed while walking the street - then its a price I am willing to pay.

[Ocean1]

(only approx 15 determined anarchists involved)

Smells like a quote.

Care to reveal who's definition of anarchist we're using?

[Winston001]

LOL only mine.

Nah. Its just that I detest the word terrorist because it is so overused and emotionally loaded. These guys were anarchists in the sense they wanted to destroy the social order of the USA. In fact of the West (as they see it).

We used to term such people guerillas but that is old school and confusing for modern shallow journalists. :D

[BoristheBiter]

Maybe you'll be lucid enough to understand the second time around. I've added a wee hint for you too.

Your such a fucking moron, your ISP is doing it now and selling off the details to whom ever pays for it and they don't need any permission from anyone.

[Ocean1]

Nah. Its just that I detest the word terrorist because it is so overused and emotionally loaded. These guys were anarchists in the sense they wanted to destroy the social order of the USA. In fact of the West (as they see it).

The typical anarchist is an equal oportunity anti-state advocate. So it that case terrorist is correct, over used and abused as it is.

If labels matter I'd wear rational anarchist. Mate Heinline had some faults but his basic tenets were sound.

[mashman]

Your such a fucking moron, your ISP is doing it now and selling off the details to whom ever pays for it and they don't need any permission from anyone.

No. Really?... and I'm not happy about that either. But that's money for ya. Fuck privacy when it makes people money irrespective of the damage it can do. It you weren't such a fuckin chicken shit then you wouldn't be worried about the state needing to legislate to keep you safe. Hell you might even work out that should some small group decide to blow up a public building and they keep it under wraps they're likely to succeed and there's absolutely fuck all you can do about it.

I'd rather we had a free for all and let those who are disgruntled with the way we're being "managed" let off a little steam or a bomb or 500 even. Praps then we'll stop and ask the question: Why are they doing this again? If I'm a moron then you should shut your feeble whimpering cheese eating surrender monkey fearful head in the sand mouth, coz you're giving me a bad name, mate.

[Banditbandit]

If labels matter I'd wear rational anarchist. Mate Heinline had some faults but his basic tenets were sound.

Fuck me .. I'd never have guessed that .. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is one of my favourite political tracts of all time ... alongside Le Guin's The Dispossessed

[BoristheBiter]

mindless leek fucker rantings.................. , mate.

Stop calling me mate, someone might think i know you:bleh:

[Madmax]

Smiths Dream is coming true

:devil2:

[mashman]

Stop calling me mate, someone might think i know you:bleh:

Sorry brother.

[BoristheBiter]

Sorry brother.

Thank you, now carry on.

[BoristheBiter]

People need to look up what fascism actually is. because we are living it. bit by bit, day by day.

.

You know what? I was a bit concerned that you might be right so I have done a bit read over the last week.....day.... OK the last two minutes and have com to the conclusion that it is you that needs to read up on what fascism actually is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Yes there are some things that the nats are doing that could be called fascist policy but you could say that about anyone and the last time Labour was in was more like fascism than what we have now.

So go and do a bit of reading about the subject the you clearly have no idea on.

[mashman]

:corn:

plus charss

[Ocean1]

Fuck me .. I'd never have guessed that .. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is one of my favourite political tracts of all time ... alongside Le Guin's The Dispossessed


What? you don't see me matching the traditional radical left view of an anarchist?

You're right: "In terms of morals there is no such thing as a ‘state.’ Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free, because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything that I do".

And in spite of what your social studies teacher told you that right there is the antithesis of socialism, capitalism is nothing more than an economic model.

I guess I figure the basic tenet to be so intrinsically correct that I don't actually believe anyone behaves differently, no matter what they think drives their policy. I don't absolutely require that others behave similarly, but I certainly treat everyone else from behind the eyes of a rational anarchist, as if they're responsible for themselves. Refuse to accept less from anyone.

[Winston001]

Oh well. Much as I admire Robert Heinlein his anarchistic principles do not approach the deeper considerations of jurisprudence and philosophy. Man can be immoral but the state can be moral - which is the opposite of what Heinlein said. Trouble is, it aint easy to find the optimum state morality. Capital punishment is the hardest example.

[Ocean1]

Oh well. Much as I admire Robert Heinlein his anarchistic principles do not approach the deeper considerations of jurisprudence and philosophy.

And it'll come as no surprise to you that an anarchist would dissagree.

If nothing else, simply for the practice.

Where are the ethical limits of behaviour drawn in the relationship between a soldier and his command, for instance, is he absolved of all responsibility for his actions by his orders?

No?

Take another step.

[Winston001]

Arrgghh farg I feel like a stranger in a strange land

[mashman]

Yay, let's take something really simple, like anarchy for instance, and complicate it with different theories from different people because ya just never know, one of them might be right... then again they both might be right, errrrrrm, or they could both be wrong. It sounds like you two ladies are arguing that knowing one belief that a person holds defines their entire character, belief system, judgement system, moral standing etc... That shit always has me larfing in the aisles... you should take to the stage.

[Brian d marge]

Arrgghh farg I feel like a stranger in a strange land

oh fuck me ,, quoting songs from the 70s

...if the kids are united , they will be be divided ...jimmy percy !!

all we can do is by rational conversation is make one person ,,think

in the mean time make sure the nearest and dearest arses are covered

and money in the bank is a byatch to eat


Stephenn

[BoristheBiter]

Yay, let's take something really simple, like anarchy for instance, and complicate it with different theories from different people because ya just never know, one of them might be right... then again they both might be right, errrrrrm, or they could both be wrong. It sounds like you two ladies are arguing that knowing one belief that a person holds defines their entire character, belief system, judgement system, moral standing etc... That shit always has me larfing in the aisles... you should take to the stage.

I don't know but you just found the definition of KB.:niceone:

[Banditbandit]

What? you don't see me matching the traditional radical left view of an anarchist?

No, I would have picked you for a pretty typical right-wing Libertarian


You're right: "In terms of morals there is no such thing as a ‘state.’ Just men. Individuals. Each responsible for his own acts. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free, because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything that I do". .. Yeup .. Libertarian


And in spite of what your social studies teacher told you that right there is the antithesis of socialism, capitalism is nothing more than an economic model.

Maybe Freedman's view of Capitalism is just that .. but others disagree - even the capitalists ...

"Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its’ result is the free-market." From http://capitalism.org/


I guess I figure the basic tenet to be so intrinsically correct that I don't actually believe anyone behaves differently, no matter what they think drives their policy. I don't absolutely require that others behave similarly, but I certainly treat everyone else from behind the eyes of a rational anarchist, as if they're responsible for themselves. Refuse to accept less from anyone.

Yes - and that is one area where Libertarians and Anarchists agree ...


Oh well. Much as I admire Robert Heinlein his anarchistic principles do not approach the deeper considerations of jurisprudence and philosophy. Man can be immoral but the state can be moral - which is the opposite of what Heinlein said. Trouble is, it aint easy to find the optimum state morality. Capital punishment is the hardest example.

Moral/Immoral ??? A fiction created by human beings ... there is no such thing in any reality ...

[Ocean1]

.. Yeup .. Libertarian

It's a quote from the inventor of rational anarchy in your favourite book. The ultimate authority, explaining what constitutes a rational anarchist.

As for Libertarians and Anarchists agreeing that individuals should be responsible for themselves, it's really only socialists that don't agree.

Which raises another Heinlein truism: TANSTAFL.

[mashman]

As for Libertarians and Anarchists agreeing that individuals should be responsible for themselves, it's really only socialists that don't agree.

I disagree. I reckon socialists accept that an individual should be responsible for themselves, but they also makes provision for those who can't. Something libertarians don't and something that Anarchists do. Libertarians are fuckwits.

[Ocean1]

I disagree. I reckon socialists accept that an individual should be responsible for themselves, but they also makes provision for those who can't. Something libertarians don't and something that Anarchists do.

Socialists might agree that everyone should be responsible for themselves, but then they thieve everyone's cash and make sure that nobody's actually capable of doing it.

And I'd say your classic anarchist is somewhat less likely to approve of handouts than someone of a standard libertairan flavour.


Libertarians are fuckwits.

Yeah, you crave authority. But only if it agrees with you.

[Banditbandit]

It's a quote from the inventor of rational anarchy in your favourite book. The ultimate authority, explaining what constitutes a rational anarchist.

Yes .. but to highlight that without the total context provided by the proff's piolitical philosophy seems especially libertarian.



Socialists might agree that everyone should be responsible for themselves, but then they thieve everyone's cash and make sure that nobody's actually capable of doing it.

And I'd say your classic anarchist is somewhat less likely to approve of handouts than someone of a standard libertairan flavour.

Hmm .. I'm more inclined to the view that Anarchists are leftwing but libertarian are rightwing .. The political compass is better than a straight line axis (go here ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass) In the diagram (top of the page right) I'm more inclined to make the green area Anarchist ....




Yeah, you crave authority. But only if it agrees with you.

I think that applies to most non-self actualized human beings ...

[Ocean1]

Yes .. but to highlight that without the total context provided by the proff's piolitical philosophy seems especially libertarian.

Again, it's a wiki reference, quoting that character explaining his political pholosophy. In terms of accuracy it simply doesn't come any more authoritive and any less molested by liberterian translations, or anyone else's for that matter.



Hmm .. I'm more inclined to the view that Anarchists are leftwing but libertarian are rightwing .. The political compass is better than a straight line axis (go here ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass) In the diagram (top of the page right) I'm more inclined to make the green area Anarchist ....


Yes, I’m familiar with it. Your reference to the device and subsequent comment simply shows, again, the extent to which your beliefs distort your perceptions. Libertarians are anti-state, they’re just as anti left wing state as they are anti right wing state. The same is true of amarchists, in spades. Attributing socialist or capitalist characteristics to either is simply incorrect.


I think that applies to most non-self actualized human beings ...
Possibly. Certainly describes the duplicitous thinking of most socialists, they want someone to take care of them but they want someone else to pay for it.

[mashman]

Socialists might agree that everyone should be responsible for themselves, but then they thieve everyone's cash and make sure that nobody's actually capable of doing it.

And I'd say your classic anarchist is somewhat less likely to approve of handouts than someone of a standard libertairan flavour.

Yeah, you crave authority. But only if it agrees with you.

And capitalists don't? If you total all of the benefit fraud in the NZ, multiply it by 100 and then compare it to the 5 largest capitalist fraud's over the last 5 years, the 5 will dwarf that which the total population * 100 on NZ has defrauded. Tax evasion is theft and according to a recent US media release, 100,000 people have 32 trillion offshore somewhere. It's the nature of a capitalist to lie and cheat, not so much for the socialist.

Really? I think the anarchist would probably be more pragmatic about the handouts in the first place and ALL income would be means tested in order to decide where the handouts went. A far cry from the libertarian stance.

:killingme... I crave many things, but authority isn't one of them. There's nothing wrong with Leadership and direction unless it is authoritative and not for reasons that benefit everyone.

[Ocean1]

And capitalists don't? If you total all of the benefit fraud in the NZ, multiply it by 100 and then compare it to the 5 largest capitalist fraud's over the last 5 years, the 5 will dwarf that which the total population * 100 on NZ has defrauded. Tax evasion is theft and according to a recent US media release, 100,000 people have 32 trillion offshore somewhere. It's the nature of a capitalist to lie and cheat, not so much for the socialist..

Yes. I suspect you’re confusing tax evasion with tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal. But that wee problem with your numbers hardly makes a dent in the point you’re presumably attempting to make against the fact that you’re certainly confusing America, which we don’t give a flying fuck about, with NZ. Which sorta suggests that you could teach yer average capitalist a thing or two about lying and cheating. But If it worries you that much why don’t you go and offer your services to the FBI, I’m sure they’d be really really appreciative.

Not, I hasten to add, that I'm attempting to infer that all socialists lie ALL of the time. Some quite prominent examples of the species quite freely admit that all tax is theft. Which tends to leave any complaints that people are attempting to minimise their losses exposed as the ultimate hypocrisy it really is.



Really? I think the anarchist would probably be more pragmatic about the handouts in the first place and ALL income would be means tested in order to decide where the handouts went. A far cry from the libertarian stance.

Don’t know how you figure that, given that both are intrinsically against state interference with individuals lives. The facts must be an almost insurmountable obstacle to your beliefs, eh?


:killingme... I crave many things, but authority isn't one of them.

Which, I’m distressed to tell you, makes you an anarchist.


There's nothing wrong with Leadership and direction unless it is authoritative and not for reasons that benefit everyone.
So, a sort of fascist communism, then?

Sounds lovely.

[mashman]

Yes. I suspect you’re confusing tax evasion with tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal. But that wee problem with your numbers hardly makes a dent in the point you’re presumably attempting to make against the fact that you’re certainly confusing America, which we don’t give a flying fuck about, with NZ. Which sorta suggests that you could teach yer average capitalist a thing or two about lying and cheating. But If it worries you that much why don’t you go and offer your services to the FBI, I’m sure they’d be really really appreciative.

Not, I hasten to add, that I'm attempting to infer that all socialists lie ALL of the time. Some quite prominent examples of the species quite freely admit that all tax is theft. Which tends to leave any complaints that people are attempting to minimise their losses exposed as the ultimate hypocrisy it really is.

Don’t know how you figure that, given that both are intrinsically against state interference with individuals lives. The facts must be an almost insurmountable obstacle to your beliefs, eh?

Which, I’m distressed to tell you, makes you an anarchist.

So, a sort of fascist communism, then?

Sounds lovely.

Ahhhh that little get our of jail free card. Set up by the rich for the rich to stay richer, with the hangers on using the excuse to divorce themselves from the reality many of the services they receive are paid for by taxation. That and ignoring the fact that where they have legally ducked out of their part of the social contract the govt has had to borrow 10's of billions of $ to make up the short fall... and yet still have the balls to moan and grumble about it because they believe that they have earned what they have earned irrespective of anyone else's contribution. Your mum must be proud.

:rofl: you gotta get your nose out of the books man. They're fuckin up what's left of your brain... well, soul might be a better description. Some socialists say that eh... they're not very good socialists are they. Are they just left wing voters and that's your all encompassing term for them?

The facts are only insurmountable to you as you are unable to conceive of handouts outwith the govt. What a small narrow minded world your mind occupies. The State isn't the only mechanism of aid, not should it be the agency of giving aid. That should be done locally. Grow a mind of your own, they're really quite remarkable when functioning properly.

No it doesn't. I believe that govt has its place.

Nope, just free people living in a free world and cooperating for everyone's benefit and not the self-proclaimed morons who believe that they are deserved a living because some so called free market allows them to. Something more commonly referred to as the chicken shit copout. I've got my old hat if you want it as it doesn't fit anymore. My apologies for the lack of tinfoil.

T'would certainly be better than the shit you believe serves mankind best. But I'm after something much better than that.

[Ocean1]

Some socialists say that eh... they're not very good socialists are they. Are they just left wing voters and that's your all encompassing term for them?

Well alright, not the most rabid red going.


All tax is theft

I love it that you get less lucid when wound up, and yet make no less sense. Remarkable.

[mashman]

Well alright, not the most rabid red going.

I love it that you get less lucid when wound up, and yet make no less sense. Remarkable.

ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa... not even a red, unless we're talkin LFC that is.

:rofl:... I haven't been wound up when posting in almost 18 months now. Tis you that be translating it that way, which is much to my amusement.

[Banditbandit]

Yes, I’m familiar with it. Your reference to the device and subsequent comment simply shows, again, the extent to which your beliefs distort your perceptions. Libertarians are anti-state, they’re just as anti left wing state as they are anti right wing state. The same is true of amarchists, in spades. Attributing socialist or capitalist characteristics to either is simply incorrect.





Hmmm .. see most of the Anarchists I know and have read - such as Faber, Rocker, Malatesta - accept what is seen as a Marxist analysis of the change from Feudalism to Capitalism .. and the inherent problems that go with it . the class structure, the disempowerment of the people who actually produce stuff ... the inequitious distribution of wealth in a capitlaist society (all good left-wing ideas) .. and of course marx took many of his ideas from Proudhon who was a good anarchist ...

The difference is that we do not accept Marx's solution - which is a revolution to smash the state, then the installation of a Socialist state, which becomes a Communist state, which then withers and dies to leave the dictatorship of the proleteriat (ignore Marx's unfortunate terminology ... we accept the same endpoint as Marx .. but say that the state itself is a problem .. any state.

When you smash the state why on earth would you impose another state ... socialist or not .. they all tend to elitism and the ruling ideology of any state is the ideology of the ruling elite (pure Marx) ... every country that has had a reviolutuon and imposed a "different" state has gone down that path ... they all create new ruling elities .. Marx's historic materialism has been proven false by history ...

in fact I would argue that the majority of the revolutions we have seen have been created by the sons and daughters of the ruling class who were not getting to the top fast enough .. and violently pushed "mum and dad" out of the way ...

The anarchist answer is a society in which any rules are agreed on 100% by the members of that society ... it does not mean No Government or social rules - it means a consensus Governemtn with consensus rules ... a simple majority is not sufficient ...

PS .. yeah I know .. Most anachists now accept that a truly consensus society is a pipe dream for anything other than small communes, or very small states ... It does not mean we stop working towards that goal ... at least by doing so we are working for a better society ...

[Banditbandit]

Riddle

Why do anarchists only drink herbal tea ??

Because proper tea is theft ...


PS: a libertarian would never regard property as theft - property is something to be defended - by armed response if necessary ..

[SPman]

If you have to talk about it, lay out theories and agenda and talk pompous, self aggrandising shit justifying your position, you're not an anarchist! You're just another wanking, egocentric, pseudo intellectual!

Like true bikers, you either are, or you aren't.

[Banditbandit]

If you have to talk about it, lay out theories and agenda and talk pompous, self aggrandising shit justifying your position, you're not an anarchist! You're just another wanking, egocentric, pseudo intellectual!

Like true bikers, you either are, or you aren't.

Bwhahahaha .. Yes ... I can accept that ...

I also work in tertiary education .. so yes, alongside the anarchic biker is "a interlektul" ... I get paid shitloads per week to propogate bullshit ... I'd have to admit I'm pretty good at it ... 'cause anarchy is a legitimate political position

Riding bikes is my escape from bullshit ... so the anarchic biker sits alongside the politically anarchist teacher ...

[oneofsix]

The anarchist answer is a society in which any rules are agreed on 100% by the members of that society ... it does not mean No Government or social rules - it means a consensus Governemtn with consensus rules ... a simple majority is not sufficient ...


FFS how the hell do they ever expect to do anything? 100% agreement :rolleyes: I can understand why you require more than a simple majority, what with lynch mob mentality and the sort, but likewise you will never get 100% and therefore you end up with no government.

[Banditbandit]

FFS how the hell do they ever expect to do anything? 100% agreement :rolleyes: I can understand why you require more than a simple majority, what with lynch mob mentality and the sort, but likewise you will never get 100% and therefore you end up with no government.

I think you should note that I said in the post that this was a pipe dream ...

[oneofsix]

I think you should note that I said in the post that this was a pipe dream ...

well in the post script actually :laugh: Duly noted. Have they got a practical solution?

[Ocean1]

When you smash the state why on earth would you impose another state ...

No anarchist would.


Anarchism is defined as a political philosophy which holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, or harmful


The anarchist answer is a society in which any rules are agreed on 100% by the members of that society ...

No idea where you got that from, but it’s complete bollox, any form of social governance is anathema to an anarchist.

I hope you’re not a social studies of history teacher.

[Banditbandit]

well in the post script actually :laugh: Duly noted. Have they got a practical solution?

Naaa ... maybe a radical plural democracy a la Mouffe and Laclau ... but most accept that a truly anarchist society is a utopian dream ...


No anarchist would.

No idea where you got that from, but it’s complete bollox, any form of social governance is anathema to an anarchist.

You are wrong - it is anathema only to some forms of anarchy ... Seems some rerading to improve your knowledge of the poltical system you espouse ... go to these two first ...


http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/anarchism/index.html


http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/rbr/noamrbr2.html



I hope you’re not a social studies of history teacher.

Naa ... neither of those ... think tertiary - not secondary (Tho' yeah, history is taught at tertiary level - social studies is not)

[Ocean1]

You are wrong - it is anathema only to some forms of anarchy ...

So you found some communists who liked the racy image of anarchism. Congratulations.

I'll stick with the mainstream definition, ta.


Naa ... neither of those ... think tertiary - not secondary (Tho' yeah, history is taught at tertiary level - social studies is not)

Thank fuck for that, although in hindsight I'd say most secondary school kids could spot the flaws in your delivery.

[avgas]

http://thumbs.imagekind.com/member/4b165b79-9e3e-4c1d-8b30-ae50a096d288/uploadedartwork/650X650/ef6fb953-cfb6-4b7e-85bb-f71c5f0a1a80.jpg

[mashman]

FFS how the hell do they ever expect to do anything? 100% agreement :rolleyes: I can understand why you require more than a simple majority, what with lynch mob mentality and the sort, but likewise you will never get 100% and therefore you end up with no government.

We don't have 100% agreement now, t'would seem silly to believe that we'd ever get 100% agreement. Still don't mean we can't do things better though :D

[BoristheBiter]

We don't have 100% agreement now, t'would seem silly to believe that we'd ever get 100% agreement. Still don't mean we can't do things better though :D

But what you class as better I would not.

[mashman]

But what you class as better I would not.

If you have everything you have and everything you want to have, a better healthcare system, a better use of resources, an almost crime free country and access to more time with which to spend how you choose, you wouldn't class that as better?

[BoristheBiter]

If you have everything you have and everything you want to have, a better healthcare system, a better use of resources, an almost crime free country and access to more time with which to spend how you choose, you wouldn't class that as better?

Yes but your way of getting the required resources for this is WAY different from mine.

[mashman]

Yes but your way of getting the required resources for this is WAY different from mine.

True. Mine would involve much less death though.

[BoristheBiter]

True. Mine would involve much less death though.

And mine would mean people working.

[Banditbandit]

So you found some communists who liked the racy image of anarchism. Congratulations.

I'll stick with the mainstream definition, ta.

See .. you're not too far off the mark really - but you are still wrong. Anarchism was once also called Libertarian Communism ... but Capitalist and Communist theorists, fearing the power of Anarchy, ganged up on the concept and declared it the same as chaos - a politrical process with no system adn no controls ... a chaotic system ... they were wong ... but their definition and ideas about anarchy have become what you call "mainstream" .. that is simply part of the hegemonic processes of the dominant elites ... the dominant ideas of any society are the ideas of the dominant class (again, pure Marx)

So when you claim "freedom of thought" you have actually bought into the ruling elites definitions ... and are therefore their captive and their tool ... and you know what that is called don't you ...


Thank fuck for that, although in hindsight I'd say most secondary school kids could spot the flaws in your delivery. .

Well, as I was not being a teacher, and as I gave you a very brief response .. you might be right ... any brief summary/precis is goinmg to have flaws . but they will disapear once the fuiller explanation is given.

What I suspect you really mean is that you disagree with me - which I can accept, but that is not the same as have flaws .. . disagreement is based on a much more fundamental difference in worldview and expectations ... and not necessarily on logical argument ... the acceptance of the overriding power of logic, or its non-acceptnace, is part of the worldview ... And then within that worldview the cogency of the base assumptions on which the argument rests.

[BoristheBiter]

So when you claim "freedom of thought" you have actually bought into the ruling elites definitions ... and are therefore their captive and their tool ... and you know what that is called don't you ...

.

Or you have bought into theirs?

I think you are so wrong to bring you back to some form of normality would entail far more time and experience than I am willing to spend on you.

And really you do make me laugh.

[Ocean1]

See .. you're not too far off the mark really - but you are still wrong. Anarchism was once also called Libertarian Communism ... but Capitalist and Communist theorists, fearing the power of Anarchy, ganged up on the concept and declared it the same as chaos - a politrical process with no system adn no controls ... a chaotic system ... they were wong ... but their definition and ideas about anarchy have become what you call "mainstream" .. that is simply part of the hegemonic processes of the dominant elites ... the dominant ideas of any society are the ideas of the dominant class (again, pure Marx)

So when you claim "freedom of thought" you have actually bought into the ruling elites definitions ... and are therefore their captive and their tool ... and you know what that is called don't you ...


By mainstream I mean uncorrupted by subsequent political manipulation, I mean the classic definition, as wrought by the original practitioners.

So: anarchy (n.) 1530s, from French anarchie or directly from Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhia "lack of a leader, the state of people without a government" (in Athens, used of the Year of Thirty Tyrants, 404 B.C., when there was no archon), noun of state from anarkhos "rulerless," from an- "without" (see an- (1)) + arkhos "leader" (see archon).

So, literally "Leaderless". If you hear someone call it Libertarian Communism you can tell THEM they're the victims of the hegemonic processes of the dominant elites, because the original definition's got fuck all to do with communism or libertarianism.

Also: http://www.theihs.org/what-libertarian

Again, fuck all association with either left or right other than through those later elements which have found it expedient to cherry pick to suit their own dogma.

So thanks for the lesson, but I've always declined to pay much attention to old, poorly spun hash from the likes of Marx, et al.


Well, as I was not being a teacher, and as I gave you a very brief response .. you might be right ... any brief summary/precis is goinmg to have flaws . but they will disapear once the fuiller explanation is given.

What I suspect you really mean is that you disagree with me - which I can accept, but that is not the same as have flaws .. . disagreement is based on a much more fundamental difference in worldview and expectations ... and not necessarily on logical argument ... the acceptance of the overriding power of logic, or its non-acceptnace, is part of the worldview ... And then within that worldview the cogency of the base assumptions on which the argument rests.

Your interpretations are so far bent by your wishes as to be factually in error.

Most people's are.

But most people don't teach their own slightly mangled interpretations of the meaning of lif.

[mashman]

And mine would mean people working.

Mine too... only smarter and less need to work as many hours. Fancy a 20/30 hrs week anyone?

[mashman]

By mainstream........

Baaaaa baaaaaa


Or you have bought into theirs?

I think you are so wrong to bring you back to some form of normality would entail far more time and experience than I am willing to spend on you.

And really you do make me laugh.

Black sheep

[Ocean1]

Fancy a 20/30 hrs week anyone?

Most of 'em get paid 40 hrs for about 10 hrs work, come back when you can beat that.

[Usarka]

So, expensive MMP referendum recommendations will be ignored. Cynics would suggest it's because of ACT being below the coat-tail threshold.

Is it too much to ask that politicians of either side do what's best for the country rather than what's best for themselves?

[mashman]

Most of 'em get paid 40 hrs for about 10 hrs work, come back when you can beat that.

:laugh: a lack of work is the employers fault... and in regards to beating 10 hrs in a way that doesn't denigrate the effort of those who make business function: a large chunk, potentially even half, of the population won't be required to work at all :headbang: Beaten!

[Ocean1]

a large chunk, potentially even half, of the population won't be required to work at all

I KNEW it, more dole bludgers! Away wi' ye!

[mashman]

So, expensive MMP referendum recommendations will be ignored. Cynics would suggest it's because of ACT being below the coat-tail threshold.

Is it too much to ask that politicians of either side do what's best for the country rather than what's best for themselves?

:rofl: put the fuckin drugs down man. Too much to ask indeed. You should just STFU and do as you're told, you get to vote. Here's a razor blade... now get back in your corner and get back to chewing it. It's a job, not a position where you can actually achieve anything.

[mashman]

I KNEW it, more dole bludgers! Away wi' ye!

:killingme Dole bludgers? the dole won't exist.

[BoristheBiter]

Mine too... only smarter and less need to work as many hours. Fancy a 20/30 hrs week anyone?

Yep, but as you have stated in the past that if you don't want you work you shouldn't have to is not what i was thinking.

No work, no money (or any such handout).
It could work now. There are so many things TBTP don't do due to high costs, lots of volunteer work so just shift the work force.

It's not hard to do but some many live on the hand out of others then cry if they are expected to do something for it.

[Banditbandit]

By mainstream I mean uncorrupted by subsequent political corruption, I mean the classic definition, as wrought by the original practitioners.

So: anarchy (n.) 1530s, from French anarchie or directly from Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek anarkhia "lack of a leader, the state of people without a government" (in Athens, used of the Year of Thirty Tyrants, 404 B.C., when there was no archon), noun of state from anarkhos "rulerless," from an- "without" (see an- (1)) + arkhos "leader" (see archon).

So, literally "Leaderless". If you hear someone call it Libertarian Communism you can tell THEM they're the victims of the hegemonic processes of the dominant elites, because the original definition's got fuck all to do with communism or libertarianism.

Also: http://www.theihs.org/what-libertarian

Again, fuck all association with either left or right other than through those later elements which have found it expedient to cherry pick to suit their own dogma.

So thanks for the lesson, but I've always declined to pay much attention to old, poorly spun hash from the likes of Marx, et al.



Your interpretations are so far bent by your wishes as to be factually in error.

Most people's are.

But most people don't teach their own slightly mangled interpretations of the meaning of lif.

I don't teach the meaning of life (beyond 42 ...)

So .. do you prefer the original meaning of "democracy" (from demos) or the current one? of "politics" (from "Polis") or the current one?

The original meaning of "computer" or the current one?

How do you go about talking about that machine we use for long distance communication called a "telephone" .. that word is only around 100 years old ...

And don't assume that a consensus type of social organisation neccessitates a leader - it does not ... and would therefore remain within your concept of anarchy.

[BoristheBiter]

So, expensive MMP referendum recommendations will be ignored. Cynics would suggest it's because of ACT being below the coat-tail threshold.

Is it too much to ask that politicians of either side do what's best for the country rather than what's best for themselves?

Actually it would have been better for the Nat's if they dropped the threshold as then more of ACT could get in.

If you want someone to blame than blame the wankers that voted to keep MMP.
Look at the last poll (yes it's is just a poll) the Nats on one side, Labour/greens on the other, so leaving NZF (only small party over 5%) in the balance of power and if what they say holds true then they will go with Labour.

Now that shit has to stop, the country being run by three party's that most didn't vote for.

http://curiablog.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/roy-morgan-poll-early-april-2013/

[avgas]

:killingme Dole bludgers? the dole won't exist.
Where are you exporting Petone to?

[HenryDorsetCase]

By mainstream I mean ......

Why did the hipster salmon die?

It refused to swim in the mainstream

[mashman]

Yep, but as you have stated in the past that if you don't want you work you shouldn't have to is not what i was thinking.

No work, no money (or any such handout).
It could work now. There are so many things TBTP don't do due to high costs, lots of volunteer work so just shift the work force.

It's not hard to do but some many live on the hand out of others then cry if they are expected to do something for it.

That makes you out to be a supporter of the fascist regime... and I have the sneaky suspicion that your thinking was something entirely different and highly one way.

Thanks for reinforcing my point. There are already people who work for free and do so of their own volition. Money is not a requirement for production or for an economy.

That expectation is often unreasonable. In fact the whole ideal behind it is unreasonable. You get given money, therefore you should do something to repay us nice people for giving you money. Why not pay these people a decent living for a real job? Oh of course, coz the free market economy values effort at different rates and the total tax take doesn't currently pay the bills yadda yadda yadda. So disappointing and hardly what I would class as a logical way of doing things.

[mashman]

And don't assume that a consensus type of social organisation neccessitates a leader - it does not ... and would therefore remain within your concept of anarchy.

In this day and age? Surely not... although there was this little country in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932011_Belgian_political_crisis)

[mashman]

Where are you exporting Petone to?

Auckland. Gotta hide it somewhere where people won't notice it.

[BoristheBiter]

That makes you out to be a supporter of the fascist regime... and I have the sneaky suspicion that your thinking was something entirely different and highly one way.

Could you please show me what makes this current government a fascist regime?
I have asked HDC to do the same but guess he also has no idea but then being a lawyer I expected little from him.

Thanks for reinforcing my point. There are already people who work for free and do so of their own volition. Money is not a requirement for production or for an economy.

Never said money was.

That expectation is often unreasonable. In fact the whole ideal behind it is unreasonable. You get given money, therefore you should do something to repay us nice people for giving you money. Why not pay these people a decent living for a real job? Oh of course, coz the free market economy values effort at different rates and the total tax take doesn't currently pay the bills yadda yadda yadda. So disappointing and hardly what I would class as a logical way of doing things.

Were I actually agree to some point from both sides, the old Labour party removed the PEP scheme's as they said it took jobs from others.
This was bollocks as those jobs would not be done as they didn't have money for them in the first place.

I am not saying they should be made to do hard labour, they need time to find a full time job.:msn-wink:

So if you think that expecting something in return is unreasonable we should just stop handing out money and keep it for those working.

[mashman]

Were I actually agree to some point from both sides, the old Labour party removed the PEP scheme's as they said it took jobs from others.
This was bollocks as those jobs would not be done as they didn't have money for them in the first place.

I am not saying they should be made to do hard labour, they need time to find a full time job.:msn-wink:

So if you think that expecting something in return is unreasonable we should just stop handing out money and keep it for those working.

The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism (http://rense.com/general37/fascism.htm)

1. Goes without saying. Too many country's have this sort of driver. We are NZ'ers, not Maori. Well you are. I'm a Earthling.
2. GCSB for one.
3. The politial party's.
4. Bought any new tech lately? 1/2 point
5. Tricky one... although legislation in regards to how a fmaily can conduct it's business ticks this box, that and women not earning the same as men because they're, erm, women.
6. Nuff said.
7. GCSB for one.
8. --------------
9. Nuff said.
10. Nuff said.
11. Anyone seen an assault on the education system recently? The media are good lapdogs for this trick.
12. 1/2 point
13. Nuff said.
14. Wouldn't put it past them at all. 1/2 point

11.5 out of 14. Good score. Hardly surprising so many on here are fascists, it's how you're brought up.

Let's do the same experiment with "my" way under the microscope

1. Not really. We'll be all but borderless... but as there will likely be an initial pride in the accomplishment of the country toachieve that which no country has ever achieved, we'll thro in a 1/2 point.
2. Quite the opposite... unless the capitalists get out of hand of course.
3. Nope.
4. Bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa.
5. Rampant sex perhaps, but no need to distinguish who's doing what to which gender.
6. Not a chance.
7. Nope. Everything will be free after all.
8. Nope.
9. Nope.
10. Nope.
11. Nope.
12. Nope.
13. Nope.
14. Nope.

Well fuck me. A resounding 1/2 point.

So, you're either a fascist by choice or a fascist by association. If the former, than you must be popular in all of the wrong places... if the latter, then baaaaaaaa. Have a nice day.

[Oscar]

The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism (http://rense.com/general37/fascism.htm)

1. Goes without saying. Too many country's have this sort of driver. We are NZ'ers, not Maori. Well you are. I'm a Earthling.
2. GCSB for one.
3. The politial party's.
4. Bought any new tech lately? 1/2 point
5. Tricky one... although legislation in regards to how a fmaily can conduct it's business ticks this box, that and women not earning the same as men because they're, erm, women.
6. Nuff said.
7. GCSB for one.
8. --------------
9. Nuff said.
10. Nuff said.
11. Anyone seen an assault on the education system recently? The media are good lapdogs for this trick.
12. 1/2 point
13. Nuff said.
14. Wouldn't put it past them at all. 1/2 point

11.5 out of 14. Good score. Hardly surprising so many on here are fascists, it's how you're brought up.

Let's do the same experiment with "my" way under the microscope

1. Not really. We'll be all but borderless... but as there will likely be an initial pride in the accomplishment of the country toachieve that which no country has ever achieved, we'll thro in a 1/2 point.
2. Quite the opposite... unless the capitalists get out of hand of course.
3. Nope.
4. Bwaaaaa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa.
5. Rampant sex perhaps, but no need to distinguish who's doing what to which gender.
6. Not a chance.
7. Nope. Everything will be free after all.
8. Nope.
9. Nope.
10. Nope.
11. Nope.
12. Nope.
13. Nope.
14. Nope.

Well fuck me. A resounding 1/2 point.

So, you're either a fascist by choice or a fascist by association. If the former, than you must be popular in all of the wrong places... if the latter, then baaaaaaaa. Have a nice day.

I got as far as 2.
You are saying that the GCSB engenders "Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights" So as to make "The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc."

I was wondering why I had a sore neck - it's all this looking the other whilst people are killed and tortured in NZ.

The only thing that's being tortured here is good sense.
You have reached new lows in your moronic rants...

[mashman]

I got as far as 2.

The only thing that's being tortured here is good sense.

I knew you would agree.

[Banditbandit]

Were I actually agree to some point from both sides, the old Labour party removed the PEP scheme's as they said it took jobs from others.
This was bollocks as those jobs would not be done as they didn't have money for them in the first place.

I am not saying they should be made to do hard labour, they need time to find a full time job.:msn-wink:

So if you think that expecting something in return is unreasonable we should just stop handing out money and keep it for those working.

In many ways I do agree with you ... the welfare system was a safety net for people who needed it ... if you don't need it don't bludge of it - incuding old age pensions .... (And before you all hit the roof - do you really think it is fair that multi-millionaire John Key, when he leaves Parliament, will get a Parliamentary superannuation of 80% of his income when he leaves - for the rest of his life - is also entitled to National Super ??? - plenty of other examples)

However, in the contemporary world (if the word has too many syllables for you contemporary means Modern ) there is structural unemployment - there are more workers than jobs - which means there are more people who need a safety net to survive - to feed themselves and their families.

If there were more jobs than workers, then I would say No Work No Money .. however that is just not he xase, and recently Judtih Collins admitted it would probably never be so again.

So the question remains - how do we deal with people who are unemployed? Sure they can do voluntary work - but they still need to feed, house and clothe themselves and their families - that takes MONEY not voluntary work ...

So we do need some sort of safety net . adn it needs to be woerkable, fair, and not open to rip offs - but that's pretty hard - people are real good at working out ways to get extra ... How many of you all complaining here about benefit rip offs do it in other small ways .. use employer's material adn time when you know you shouldn't .. use internet time (people have been charged with theft as a servant for that - and convicted and sentenced.) .. throw a sickie ...

So - stop blaming people who are out of work for their misfortune ..

I agree with:

There needs to be a safety net to support peopel who have no job (it's nottheir fault they have no job)
People who refuse to work get no dole ... (it's their own fault they have no job)

However, people who refuse to work do have families (wives and children) ... the faults of the parent is not those of the children (yet) . so how do you support the wives and children if the adult refusese to work ... These can be the victims .. and may well become the perpetrators in the future ... unless something is done at at early stage.

[mashman]

However, people who refuse to work do have families (wives and children) ... the faults of the parent is not those of the children (yet) . so how do you support the wives and children if the adult refusese to work ... These can be the victims .. and may well become the perpetrators in the future ... unless something is done at at early stage.

Parenting isn't a full time job?

[BoristheBiter]

The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism (http://rense.com/general37/fascism.htm)

1. Goes without saying. Too many country's have this sort of driver. We are NZ'ers, not Maori. Well you are. I'm a Earthling.
Bollocks
2. GCSB for one.
Bollocks
3. The politial party's.
Bollocks
4. Bought any new tech lately? 1/2 point
Bollocks
5. Tricky one... although legislation in regards to how a fmaily can conduct it's business ticks this box, that and women not earning the same as men because they're, erm, women.
Bollocks
6. Nuff said.
i would say that is more from the owners of the media
7. GCSB for one.
can't say i have seen them use fear
8. --------------
Whats up? can 't you put any spin on that?
9. Nuff said.
Bollocks
10. Nuff said.
Bollocks
11. Anyone seen an assault on the education system recently? The media are good lapdogs for this trick.
i will agree with you on this, but it has been going on since I was at school. NZ obsession with making everyone equal.
12. 1/2 point
Bollocks, You have on idea what shit the police have to put up with.
13. Nuff said.
Bollocks
14. Wouldn't put it past them at all. 1/2 point
Bollocks
11.5 out of 14. Good score. Hardly surprising so many on here are fascists, it's how you're brought up.
I don't know? are right your folks must have been full of shit too?

Let's do the same experiment with "my" way under the microscope
why? not like you are going to run the country, or even do anything to help, or even have one good idea.

So, you're either a fascist by choice or a fascist by association. If the former, than you must be popular in all of the wrong places... if the latter, then baaaaaaaa. Have a nice day.

So does that make you fascist by choice or association?

[gwigs]

Parenting isn't a full time job?


In Sweden I believe it is considered a full time job and parents are paid for it.
They look after the children over there..

[BoristheBiter]

In many ways I do agree with you ... the welfare system was a safety net for people who needed it ... if you don't need it don't bludge of it - incuding old age pensions .... (And before you all hit the roof - do you really think it is fair that multi-millionaire John Key, when he leaves Parliament, will get a Parliamentary superannuation of 80% of his income when he leaves - for the rest of his life - is also entitled to National Super ??? - plenty of other examples)
Do you think it is fare for someone that has been on a benefit all their lives should get it too?

However, in the contemporary world (if the word has too many syllables for you contemporary means Modern ) there is structural unemployment - there are more workers than jobs - which means there are more people who need a safety net to survive - to feed themselves and their families.
and here's me thinking it meant supercilious, must be because of the same amount of syllables:msn-wink:


So the question remains - how do we deal with people who are unemployed? Sure they can do voluntary work - but they still need to feed, house and clothe themselves and their families - that takes MONEY not voluntary work ...
I never said that, just one day a week they could do something.

So we do need some sort of safety net . adn it needs to be woerkable, fair, and not open to rip offs - but that's pretty hard - people are real good at working out ways to get extra ... How many of you all complaining here about benefit rip offs do it in other small ways .. use employer's material adn time when you know you shouldn't .. use internet time (people have been charged with theft as a servant for that - and convicted and sentenced.) .. throw a sickie ...
yep we do and it will always be open to abuse, but it is a safety net not a way of life.

So - stop blaming people who are out of work for their misfortune ..
never was

I agree with:

There needs to be a safety net to support peopel who have no job (it's nottheir fault they have no job)
People who refuse to work get no dole ... (it's their own fault they have no job)

However, people who refuse to work do have families (wives and children) ... the faults of the parent is not those of the children (yet) . so how do you support the wives and children if the adult refusese to work ... These can be the victims .. and may well become the perpetrators in the future ... unless something is done at at early stage.

I think you have me all wrong. I was not saying take away the benefit that we have in place, I was just saying that for one day a week, or whatever they could put something back into their local community.

Why should we as a community pay for someone else's family if they are not prepared to work for them?

[scissorhands]

[QUOTE=Banditbandit;1130547489]

So the question remains - how do we deal with people who are unemployed? Sure they can do voluntary work - but they still need to feed, house and clothe themselves and their families - that takes MONEY not voluntary work ...

So we do need some sort of safety net . adn it needs to be woerkable, fair, and not open to rip offs - but that's pretty hard - people are real good at working out ways to get extra ... How many of you all complaining here about benefit rip offs do it in other small ways .. use employer's material adn time when you know you shouldn't .. use internet time (people have been charged with theft as a servant for that - and convicted and sentenced.) .. throw a sickie ...

So - stop blaming people who are out of work for their misfortune ..
/QUOTE]

Mental disease and poor parenting....
Its the same all over the west, a disenfranchised class costing the tax payer

So create an inclusive environment for them, an alternative world, like another dimension, seemlessly living beside this present world in harmony

practically speaking, kibbutz style residential farms with cheap cabins walk to toilet thingy, [bring unused or non producing farms back into production]

have a business model of low volume high income boutique crops like herbs etc which could be a perk for the crazies

urban communities that can successfully instill hope and purpose without scorn or derision ie retard moron etc
cause many peeps are mentally challenged and all sorts of brain crazy

Mental health in the west is in a very poor state of utter bollocks, and the tax payer is footing the bill

[scumdog]

Parenting isn't a full time job?

Sadly that's what the parents of lice-riddled, school-sore scabbed, hungry, underclothed kids seem to think...:(

[mashman]

Sadly that's what the parents of lice-riddled, school-sore scabbed, hungry, underclothed kids seem to think...:(

Unfortunately true... and a society that refuses to catch those "ignored" children because it isn't their job to boot. Society should know better. Meanwhile the good parents have to work 40 hrs a week and spend less time with their kids, not really knowing who they are or what they're up to coz they haven't got a clue what the kid is actually like from the 2-3 hours a day they get with them. And they wonder why "good" kids go "bad" :facepalm:. That shit needs to change eh dawg? Economy v's Society... never both in the same breath.

[mashman]

So does that make you fascist by choice or association?

Yes I can put a spin on those 14 points. But within that spin there is a large element or truth. And as highlighted brilliantly by Oscar, no reason to go looking to see if that is the case given that you simply don't believe that it could be possible to consider NZ to be a fascist run country. It ticks a lot of them boxes in one way or another when taking NZ's role as an equal country in a global community into consideration... but as you point out, only if you decide to question NZ in that light.

You chose not to. Fair enough. Remain a sheeple.

[Banditbandit]

Parenting isn't a full time job?

Yeah .. it is . that's why there is a DPB ...


Sadly that's what the parents of lice-riddled, school-sore scabbed, hungry, underclothed kids seem to think...:(

Yeah ... and those children grow up to be their parents ... jyust like others do ... the sons and daughters of the bankers, teachers, etc etc ..

[BoristheBiter]

Yes I can put a spin on those 14 points. But within that spin there is a large element or truth. And as highlighted brilliantly by Oscar, no reason to go looking to see if that is the case given that you simply don't believe that it could be possible to consider NZ to be a fascist run country. It ticks a lot of them boxes in one way or another when taking NZ's role as an equal country in a global community into consideration... but as you point out, only if you decide to question NZ in that light.

You chose not to. Fair enough. Remain a sheeple.

Like you say YOU put a spin on those points to suit your own agenda.
You only find truth because you want to find it. like you said you only find those points IF you question in that light.
Go watch the movies 23 and you will see what you're coming across like.

You choose to, fair enough remain a loony.

[BoristheBiter]

In Sweden I believe it is considered a full time job and parents are paid for it.
They look after the children over there..

yes and they also pay 48% income tax, so which do you want?

[mashman]

Like you say YOU put a spin on those points to suit your own agenda.
You only find truth because you want to find it. like you said you only find those points IF you question in that light.
Go watch the movies 23 and you will see what you're coming across like.

You choose to, fair enough remain a loony.

No agenda. There are real aspect of real life that fit those criteria. You're the one choosing to suit an agenda.
Bullshit. You choose to decide that I am seeking a truth that isn't there. The thing is Boris, you have to ask the question first. Not just sit and accept that it is the way it is and that's the only way it can be because that's the way they've told you it is. That goes way beyond being moronic.
:killingme... your interpretation is noted and has been summarily laughed at as inconsequential due to the vital lack of critical thought you give anything.

If I'm loony, then you guys are fucked.

[HenryDorsetCase]

yes and they also pay 48% income tax, so which do you want?

do they pay VAT/GST as well?

[BoristheBiter]

do they pay VAT/GST as well?

I don't think they do hang on i'll check.......on they don't. whats the point?

[BoristheBiter]

No agenda. There are real aspect of real life that fit those criteria. You're the one choosing to suit an agenda.
Bullshit. You choose to decide that I am seeking a truth that isn't there. The thing is Boris, you have to ask the question first. Not just sit and accept that it is the way it is and that's the only way it can be because that's the way they've told you it is. That goes way beyond being moronic.
:killingme... your interpretation is noted and has been summarily laughed at as inconsequential due to the vital lack of critical thought you give anything.

If I'm loony, then you guys are fucked.

Actually HDC made me go and look when I went to make sure i had the definition correct.
Just because I choose to disagree with you doesn't make me ignorant of what's going on around me. That's more you than me.

Why? You'll never be in charge. Thank fuck for small mercy's.

[scumdog]

do they pay VAT/GST as well?

Hmmm, the only way to avoid that lot is to not buy anything..so I suspect?

Oops, didn't check what country was being refered to..doh!

[gwigs]

I don't think they do hang on i'll check.......on they don't. whats the point?

No you didn,t check did you.....25%


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Sweden

[mashman]

Actually HDC made me go and look when I went to make sure i had the definition correct.
Just because I choose to disagree with you doesn't make me ignorant of what's going on around me. That's more you than me.

Why? You'll never be in charge. Thank fuck for small mercy's.

Did I call you ignorant?

Your society is heading down the shitter because it is incapable of solving the major issues of the day. The financial system simply doesn't work if you apply any form of critical thinking to it. Bringing human nature into it is just plain naive, as there's no such thing... primarily because we are capable of changing our minds. It IS that simple. Having said that. Your refusal to apply critical thought in regard to the way we live could be considered ignorance. Perhaps you thinking that I was calling you ignorant was actually a Freudian slip.


Even if I wanted to be in charge it wouldn't just be me in charge.

[Banditbandit]

I don't think they do hang on i'll check.......on they don't. whats the point?

Because the highest rate of income tax here is not all the tax we pay .. by the time you add, petrol tax, GST, road user charges etc etc and all the taxes together it comes to quite a sum ...

If we paid that total rate just on PAYE people would scream ... but they don't becuase there are "hidden" taxes .. and all people think about is PAYE .. and ignore the other ones .. so comparing Sweden's 48% tax rate with ours is only valid if the 48% personal tax is the only tax they pay ..

It's not brain surgery ...

[Oscar]

Because the highest rate of income tax here is not all the tax we pay .. by the time you add, petrol tax, GST, road user charges etc etc and all the taxes together it comes to quite a sum ...

If we paid that total rate just on PAYE people would scream ... but they don't becuase there are "hidden" taxes .. and all people think about is PAYE .. and ignore the other ones .. so comparing Sweden's 48% tax rate with ours is only valid if the 48% personal tax is the only tax they pay ..

It's not brain surgery ...

I'm glad you're not a brain surgeon.

Sweden is one of the most taxed countries in the world at almost 50% of GDP(NZ has one of the lowest ratios in the OECD at 31%).
Not only is income tax very high, they pay VAT at between 6% & 25%.

[BoristheBiter]

No you didn,t check did you.....25%

No I got called out and clicked the submit instead on the cancel.:facepalm:



Did I call you ignorant?

Your society is heading down the shitter because it is incapable of solving the major issues of the day. The financial system simply doesn't work if you apply any form of critical thinking to it. Bringing human nature into it is just plain naive, as there's no such thing... primarily because we are capable of changing our minds. It IS that simple. Having said that. Your refusal to apply critical thought in regard to the way we live could be considered ignorance. Perhaps you thinking that I was calling you ignorant was actually a Freudian slip.
.

No, i never said you did. was replying to your post.

"The thing is Boris, you have to ask the question first. Not just sit and accept that it is the way it is and that's the only way it can be because that's the way they've told you it is."

ig·no·rant
Adjective
Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

Maybe you should do some reading or at least look the big words before you go off half cocked.



Because the highest rate of income tax here is not all the tax we pay .. by the time you add, petrol tax, GST, road user charges etc etc and all the taxes together it comes to quite a sum ...

If we paid that total rate just on PAYE people would scream ... but they don't becuase there are "hidden" taxes .. and all people think about is PAYE .. and ignore the other ones .. so comparing Sweden's 48% tax rate with ours is only valid if the 48% personal tax is the only tax they pay ..

It's not brain surgery ...

It is still not that high here.
as has been posted in the link above they have those other taxes as well, and they are higher than ours.

[mashman]

No, i never said you did. was replying to your post.

"The thing is Boris, you have to ask the question first. Not just sit and accept that it is the way it is and that's the only way it can be because that's the way they've told you it is."

ig·no·rant
Adjective
Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.

Maybe you should do some reading or at least look the big words before you go off half cocked.

Fair enough. You merely called yourself ignorant and then blamed me for it so that you could then use harsh words against my character in order to dismiss any assertion that I made in regards to your ignorance. Cunning.

[mashman]

Then there's always, you have no right to protest there because it annoys corporates and could cost us money (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/17227153/minerals-bill-amendment-urgently-debated/). We don't care what you think, so we're making protesting illegal. what a fuckin pathetic breed of human being. I wish I had the words to convey just how counterproductive the financial economy is and just how counter intuitive it is in regards to the survival of human beings. Such management practices defy all logic and reason.

[Ocean1]

I wish I had words to convey the depth of fuckwittedness displayed by people who don't want to allow others to exploit resources they're happy to use themselves.

Oh, wait, I do: Hypocracy.

[mashman]

I wish I had words to convey the depth of fuckwittedness displayed by people who don't want to allow others to exploit resources they're happy to use themselves.

Oh, wait, I do: Hypocracy.

I wish I could convey the depth of brainlessness it takes to believe that that is what was being conveyed in the first place.

Oh wait, I do: Cognitive dysfunction.

[BoristheBiter]

Fair enough. You merely called yourself ignorant and then blamed me for it so that you could then use harsh words against my character in order to dismiss any assertion that I made in regards to your ignorance. Cunning.

What are you 10? sounds like you spend to much time thinking of your own self importance.


Then there's always, you have no right to protest there because it annoys corporates and could cost us money (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/17227153/minerals-bill-amendment-urgently-debated/). We don't care what you think, so we're making protesting illegal. what a fuckin pathetic breed of human being. I wish I had the words to convey just how counterproductive the financial economy is and just how counter intuitive it is in regards to the survival of human beings. Such management practices defy all logic and reason.

You have the right to protest, but you do not have the right to stop someone from making a legal income no matter how wrong you think it is.

maybe if you spent less time on a forum and more time in the real world you might understand but i wont hold my breath.

[Banditbandit]

I'm glad you're not a brain surgeon.

Sweden is one of the most taxed countries in the world at almost 50% of GDP(NZ has one of the lowest ratios in the OECD at 31%).
Not only is income tax very high, they pay VAT at between 6% & 25%.

See that was what I meant (no need for the insults) ... we needed to know what makes up the huge sum of the Swedish tax and how that relates - an thank you, you have given the answers ...

[Banditbandit]

I wish I had words to convey the depth of fuckwittedness displayed by people who don't want to allow others to exploit resources they're happy to use themselves.

Oh, wait, I do: Hypocracy.

Cool .. prepared to share resources are you??? Let me see .. Can I use the wife ??? Or maybe the daughter???

[BoristheBiter]

See that was what I meant (no need for the insults)

But you're so good at it.:bleh:

[mashman]

What are you 10? sounds like you spend to much time thinking of your own self importance.

Not quite. :rofl: I also rub myself incessantly and hold exciting conversations with myself and my mirror image. We rule.



You have the right to protest, but you do not have the right to stop someone from making a legal income no matter how wrong you think it is.

maybe if you spent less time on a forum and more time in the real world you might understand but i wont hold my breath.

:killingme... only because it has been made legal by the fuckwit crowd and supported by even more fuckwitted people that accept that legality trumps morality.

The real world. You wouldn't know it if came up and introduced itself with character references from God and your mum.

[Ocean1]

I wish I could convey the depth of brainlessness it takes to believe that that is what was being conveyed in the first place.

Oh wait, I do: Cognitive dysfunction.

What else would you call a hard-line environmentalist that burns tons of AGO to protest the acquisition of the crude it's made from... where the only people to see them don't give a fuck about their tired old dogme?

I reckon hypocrite is pretty close.


Cool .. prepared to share resources are you??? Let me see .. Can I use the wife ??? Or maybe the daughter???

Resources? That lot? Bottomless pit of instant entropy mate, your net worth wouldn't last 2 min.

[Ocean1]

The real world. You wouldn't know it if came up and introduced itself with character references from God and your mum.

... said the man who doesn't believe in money. :laugh:

[BoristheBiter]

Not quite. :rofl: I also rub myself incessantly and hold exciting conversations with myself and my mirror image. We rule.

I said importance not impotence.


:killingme... only because it has been made legal by the fuckwit crowd and supported by even more fuckwitted people that accept that legality trumps morality.

The real world. You wouldn't know it if came up and introduced itself with character references from God and your mum.

Who's morality? your's? I fucking hope not.
Try going to court with that idea and you will be laughed back out the door.

Yes the real world is where the tinfoil covers dishes not heads.

[mashman]

What else would you call a hard-line environmentalist that burns tons of AGO to protest the acquisition of the crude it's made from... where the only people to see them don't give a fuck about their tired old dogme?

I reckon hypocrite is pretty close.


Tired old dogma? Bit of a moronic statement given that these people are showing concern about how the environment is used. Tis the idiot brigade who can only rationalise their activities in terms of $ and the harm it will do to the economy.

Do you reckon they see the hypocrisy?


... said the man who doesn't believe in money. :laugh:

You can't prove to me that that system wouldn't work. Your arguments against are weaker than a house in a tornado.


Who's morality? your's? I fucking hope not.
Try going to court with that idea and you will be laughed back out the door.

Yes the real world is where the tinfoil covers dishes not heads.

My morality would be a start... certainly better than any of those I've seen you display.
That was kinda my point :weird:

Yup, the one with many men is sheeps clothing.

[Ocean1]

Tired old dogma? Bit of a moronic statement given that these people are showing concern about how the environment is used. Tis the idiot brigade who can only rationalise their activities in terms of $ and the harm it will do to the economy.

Do you reckon they see the hypocrisy?

Absolutely. They see it sitting in the protest vessel burning the oil the protesters are so concerned about.

And what're the chances that "they" don't actually see themselves in that light, eh?


You can't prove to me that that system wouldn't work. Your arguments against are weaker than a house in a tornado.

Nobody can prove a negative, fool, and I don't really feel the need to try, I'd be comfortable with minor tweaks to the current fiscal engine.


My morality would be a start... certainly better than any of those I've seen you yet to display.


A belief may be genuine, and hard-held, without the slightest basis in truth. Often less believable than normal, in fact, it's usually pretty sound evidence evidence of a closed mind. as for my morality? I've not dislayed anything upon which you could make any such observation.

Believe hard, dude, it'll be true if you just believe hard enough.

[mashman]

Absolutely. They see it sitting in the protest vessel burning the oil the protesters are so concerned about.

And what're the chances that "they" don't actually see themselves in that light, eh?

Oh so they object to the burning of oil? for a moment there I thought there might be a bit more to it. Thanks for the learn.

Slim.



Nobody can prove a negative, fool, and I don't really feel the need to try, I'd be comfortable with minor tweaks to the current fiscal engine.

It's a positive, so I'm guessing your looking in the wrong places... hence you only see the need for tweaks. Genius.



A belief may be genuine, and hard-held, without the slightest basis in truth. Often less believable than normal, in fact, it's usually pretty sound evidence evidence of a closed mind. as for my morality? I've not dislayed anything upon which you could make any such observation.

Believe hard, dude, it'll be true if you just believe hard enough.

I see you're an optimist there. I'm surprised you can type with your fingers in your ears. I'd question your morality based on you being comfortable with people dying and justifying it on an economic basis.

There's very little belief given that the idea is seated in fact.

[Ocean1]

I'd question your morality based on you being comfortable with people dying and justifying it on an economic basis.

Show me, factman.

[mashman]

Show me, factman.

You support an economic model that forces millions of people around the world to die.

[Ocean1]

You support an economic model that forces millions of people around the world to die.

I'd say my interface with society differs from yours only insomuch that it's a higher net positive for society.

Try again.

[Scuba_Steve]

Nobody can prove a negative, fool

I'm not sure I agree with that... So you can't prove I'm not standing next to you? or that you don't have more moneys than Bill Gates?

[Ocean1]

I'm not sure I agree with that... So you can't prove I'm not standing next to you? or that you don't have more moneys than Bill Gates?

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Negative_proof

[mashman]

I'd say my interface with society differs from yours only insomuch that it's a higher net positive for society.

Try again.

16 giblets for couch's where llama's drop cookies in the sewer.

:rofl: I've already proven it. As you said you'd only make minor tweaks to the current fiscal regime.

[Banditbandit]

But you're so good at it.:bleh:

THat's true .. when it's warranted. When I agree with you I don't think it is warranted ... it just shows how little you understand of what I say ... dickhead :bleh:

[Banditbandit]

Who's morality? your's? I fucking hope not.
Try going to court with that idea and you will be laughed back out the door.



See .. you're such a dickhead you just proved his point - legality tops morality ... (I hope you God buys that too) ...

[Banditbandit]

I'd say my interface with society differs from yours only insomuch that it's a higher net positive for society.

Try again.

That depends on what you are going to measure ... do you mean in terms of Financial gain? Or in terms of an overall improved standard of living? Or maybe in terms of a better developed social morality?

See I think that ANY improvement in social morality is a better gain than ANY financial improvement .. so I would like your perspecticve on this .. because right now your use of the terminology "higher net positive" suggests a purely economic gain .. which I would rate at the bottom of the scale.

(And before you go off on a tangent, I accept that in the world we live in economics are important .. but they are a means not an end.)

[BoristheBiter]

THat's true .. when it's warranted. When I agree with you I don't think it is warranted ... it just shows how little you understand of what I say ... dickhead :bleh:


See .. you're such a dickhead you just proved his point - legality tops morality ... (I hope you God buys that too) ...

Fuck who stole the jam out of your donut?
A bit of a light hearted comment you you go postal.

The laws are passed by the majority at a particular time and that is what chooses legality, just like the gay marriage act.
Who knows in the future when everyone is dead you and Mashy might get your way, but no matter what system you run, no matter what morality you go by there will always be people that disagree and break those laws and in doing so legality beats morality.

If you can't understand that then you are so much dumber than I gave you credit for.

[Banditbandit]

Fuck who stole the jam out of your donut?
A bit of a light hearted comment you you go postal.

See .. I reswpond in kind (light-hearted) and you "go postal" (where the fuck did hat exptrerssion come from?) .. LIght-hearted humour is hard to get across on the interdweb.


The laws are passed by the majority at a particular time and that is what chooses legality, just like the gay marriage act.
Who knows in the future when everyone is dead you and Mashy might get your way, but no matter what system you run, no matter what morality you go by there will always be people that disagree and break those laws and in doing so legality beats morality.

If you can't understand that then you are so much dumber than I gave you credit for.

See - I do largely agree with you (at least I think I do - but let's take it that I do ) as far as ther law and legality goes ..

However my position is that morality is always above the law ... if a law wants me to act in a way I consider to be immoral, I will follow my morality not the law ...

[gwigs]

[QUOTE=BoristheBiter;1130550195]

legality beats morality.

There is the real problem right there...
That why Big Corporations cause so much harm to society and the environment....

[Banditbandit]

There is the real problem right there...
That why Big Corporations cause so much harm to society and the enviroment....

"You must spread ..."

Yeah ... that too ... especially that ..

[mashman]

There is the real problem right there...
That why Big Corporations cause so much harm to society and the environment....

If you want to fill that concern with HOLY FUCKN SHIT, google Monsanto Hired Blackwater.

[gwigs]

If you want to fill that concern with HOLY FUCKN SHIT, google Monsanto Hired Blackwater.

Doesnt really surprise me, Monsanto are a prime example of a souless Corporation who,s only goal is profit by any means..

[avgas]

You support an economic model that forces millions of people around the world to die.
Everyone does.
Name one economic model that doesn't force people to die?
Mao and Stalin/Lenin toll put most to shame. More people died under Mao than in WWII

[avgas]

There is the real problem right there...
That why Big Corporations cause so much harm to society and the environment....
Especially that Greenpeace lot. Would be scary if they had any power - they wouldn't hesitate to kill people off to save the planet.
As for Monsanto hiring Blackwater. Doesn't surprise me. If I had bomb threats etc I too would be getting a bit proactive to find out who's out to get me.
Monsanto were scumbags for all the other stuff like pushing laws in their favour etc. But then again so is facebook.

[mashman]

Doesnt really surprise me, Monsanto are a prime example of a souless Corporation who,s only goal is profit by any means..

And the worst that can happen is that their (faceless corporate entity) reputation is tarnished eh :laugh: :facepalm:


Everyone does.
Name one economic model that doesn't force people to die?
Mao and Stalin/Lenin toll put most to shame. More people died under Mao than in WWII

I don't and I'm pretty sure that I'm not alone in that.

[Banditbandit]

Everyone does.
Name one economic model that doesn't force people to die?
Mao and Stalin/Lenin toll put most to shame. More people died under Mao than in WWII

The economic model proposed by Che Guevara ... it is based on the concept "Love your Brother" ...

[Banditbandit]

Especially that Greenpeace lot. Would be scary if they had any power - they wouldn't hesitate to kill people off to save the planet.


Where the fuck did that come from ??? Show me any shred of proof at all ... just a small shred that backs up that statement.

(I might kill off peopel to save the planet - fuck there are too many of the fuckwits around - but I'm not a Greenpeace member - too liberal for my tastes .. Give me the Eco-terroist any day ... )

[gwigs]

Especially that Greenpeace lot. Would be scary if they had any power - they wouldn't hesitate to kill people off to save the planet.
As for Monsanto hiring Blackwater. Doesn't surprise me. If I had bomb threats etc I too would be getting a bit proactive to find out who's out to get me.
Monsanto were scumbags for all the other stuff like pushing laws in their favour etc. But then again so is facebook.

You must have your head up your arse ....do you live on another fucking planet....?
Greenpeace care about the planet ....not so Big Corporations..?
Monsanto want to control the worlds crops ..did you know that .?
They produce seeds that produce plants that give no seed..you have to get seed from them...
They want to control basic foods ,you wont be able to grow anything without paying..

[pete376403]

And if your Monsanto sourced plants do produce seeds the US supreme court (the same court that decided corporations have the same rights as people) has decided that Monsanto, not you , own those seeds and you are guilty of theft if you plant that seed.

[Ocean1]

That depends on what you are going to measure ... do you mean in terms of Financial gain? Or in terms of an overall improved standard of living? Or maybe in terms of a better developed social morality?

Since you asked nice.

What you call financial gain I call creating wealth, and it's disingenuous to infer that the pursuit of that goal is always at the expense of anyone else’s standard of living, or that anyone’s morality is suspect because of any perceived financial success.

One at a time, eh?

1/ My actual income isn’t hugely higher than average, nonetheless my contribution to the public purse is disturbingly large.

2/ I guess that qualifies me as someone who contributes more than his share to the national standard of living.

3/ My morality isn’t rationally quantifiable by whatever some dickhead reads in my posts on some obscure bulletin board. But I don’t expect most of them to stop trying.

And I don’t believe that “society” has or maintains morals, they’re a uniquely individual human attribute. And even if I did I’m not so benightedly self-centred that I’d think that it’s shape should mirror my own.


See I think that ANY improvement in social morality is a better gain than ANY financial improvement .. so I would like your perspecticve on this .. because right now your use of the terminology "higher net positive" suggests a purely economic gain .. which I would rate at the bottom of the scale

I tend to say pretty much what I mean: Society is materially better off because of my activities. That’s not a “bottom of the scale” factor, it’s simply the only measurable performance indicator.

I’d suggest your fuzzy take on morals means, for example that you’d rather see someone help another for an hour than that same person earn an hour’s wages. Fair enough, I try to help those I believe have it coming, but I do that using resources I earned. See the need for balance, there? Because your comment suggests that you don’t. See, given my beliefs about social morality it’ll come as no surprise that I don’t believe in collective charity either.

[MisterD]

The economic model proposed by Che Guevara ... it is based on the concept "Love your Brother" ...

...and what, murder them if they don't agree with you?

[Banditbandit]

...and what, murder them if they don't agree with you?

Huh . where did that come from? Are you implying that Guevara murdered people ??? He certainly killed people in armed uprising designed to improve the lot of the working class ... but I would nevefr call that murder ...

But if you choose to see it as murder then so is the killing of people in the various Gulf Wars ... in Panama, Grenoble .. etc etc .. Oh and our SAS are murdering people in Afghanistan ...

[Banditbandit]

Since you asked nice.

Thank you - I will respnd in kind (group hugs all round)



What you call financial gain I call creating wealth, and it's disingenuous to infer that the pursuit of that goal is always at the expense of anyone else’s standard of living, or that anyone’s morality is suspect because of any perceived financial success.

Yes. I am happy with "creating wealth". And I agree that it is not always at the expense of someone else's stadard of living .. and is not always through immoral means.


One at a time, eh?

1/ My actual income isn’t hugely higher than average, nonetheless my contribution to the public purse is disturbingly large.

2/ I guess that qualifies me as someone who contributes more than his share to the national standard of living.

I do earn above the averager wage - by a reasonable amount, about 35% more - and possibly therefore contribute even more than you do to the public purse. However, I do not see it as paying more than my fair share - I believe I pay my fair share. It's not an amount I need (would be nice, a year's tax back would buy me a flash new boat - which I don't need) - so I am happy to pay what I do


3/ My morality isn’t rationally quantifiable by whatever some dickhead reads in my posts on some obscure bulletin board. But I don’t expect most of them to stop trying.

Bwhahaha .. yes.


And I don’t believe that “society” has or maintains morals, they’re a uniquely individual human attribute. And even if I did I’m not so benightedly self-centred that I’d think that it’s shape should mirror my own.

Hmm .. I don't agree - I believe that morals are about the ways we behave in the world - towards each other and towards the environment around us .. interpersonal and environmental ethics - Groups of people livign together have to maintain a certain level of reasonable behaviour towards each other - (so we don't kill each other, steal stuff rape women adn men .. etc etc ) These are the agreed behaviours that we all follow - or get excluded from the group for breaching (jail, exile, death ) ...

If we don't have these then society does not really exist (that;s a good libertarian position already - there is no society on individuals.)



I tend to say pretty much what I mean: Society is materially better off because of my activities. That’s not a “bottom of the scale” factor, it’s simply the only measurable performance indicator.

I'm terribly sorry - that is too fuzzy to be a performance indicator - it's not measuable. I am sure that your activities do contribute to society and are measureable - your statement, however, is not. Saying by how much it is material better off would be. And I'm, still not sure whether you are talking simply financial or some other form of materially better off ... say in terms of more or better medicines, more or better machinery ... You may be earning a pittance, but are desiging better equipment for surgical labs ... or maybe building better homes (environment, price, etc etc )... I would certainly count those types of things as materially better off ..


I’d suggest your fuzzy take on morals

My fuzzy take on morals ??? That's only from a libertarian point of view (see above).


means, for example that you’d rather see someone help another for an hour than that same person earn an hour’s wages.

No, I am not sure that it does. And I am not sure that I would rather see someone help another human being than do (I presume you mean paid) work. There are way to many vaiables to make such a generalized statement.


Fair enough, I try to help those I believe have it coming, but I do that using resources I earned. See the need for balance, there? Because your comment suggests that you don’t. See, given my beliefs about social morality it’ll come as no surprise that I don’t believe in collective charity either.

Of course I see the need for balance. And I do not see work as not helping people - clearly I work in education because it does give me the opportunity to earn the money I need to feed cloth and house my family (such as it is) and to help people at the same time.

I do believe in collective charity (it does not surprise me that a libertarian thinker such as you does not) - and I am happy to contribute to collective charity through taxes - but equally I believe that charity has to make long-term gains. Simple hand outs never work. The issue we have now is that the collective charity has become a pure handout ... to anyone and everyone who thinks they need it - from South Canterbury Finance to the 16-year-old pregnant solo teenager about to become a mother ...

We can't withdraw the collective charity which feeds houses and clothes people without causing immense harm in our society - but currently we are doing bugger all about the long term gains .. except trying to bully people into work with threats of benefit withdrawal ... work that doesn't actually exist .. (Yeah - I know tat is debatable ... but even the Goverment accepts there is not enough jobs ...)

I accept all the criticisms of our collective charity system (Jeez I see the results every day in my classrooms and in my extended family) ... but I do not accept the rightwing and bully solutions .. they will never work either.

[MisterD]

Huh . where did that come from? Are you implying that Guevara murdered people ???

No, I'm stating explictly. Guevara was a mass murderer.

[avgas]

The economic model proposed by Che Guevara ... it is based on the concept "Love your Brother" ...
How to be a pawn in someone else's game - An Autobiography by Che Guevara.

[Banditbandit]

No, I'm stating explictly. Guevara was a mass murderer.


I get the "one man's freedom fighter ..." bit .. but I don't believe that is what you are suggesting .. so what makes you say that?



How to be a pawn in someone else's game - An Autobiography by Che Guevara.

That's only mildly amusing ... especially as once Cuba was on he right path Che left there .. he was never Castro's pawn ..

[puddytat]

Dark plot to be exposed... :sweatdrop;)
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/05/31/breaking-news-dark-plot-about-to-be-exposed-within-national-party/

[Oscar]

Dark plot to be exposed... :sweatdrop;)
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/05/31/breaking-news-dark-plot-about-to-be-exposed-within-national-party/

Bradbury.
What a maroon.

He'd fit in well on KB.

[puddytat]

Bradbury.
What a maroon.

He'd fit in well on KB.

As opposed to Lusk & Whalebubber?

[Oscar]

As opposed to Lusk & Whalebubber?

Idjuts aren't confined to the left or right.

[Flip]

What amazes me here is how many of you got suckered into voting centre right cause it was "good for the country", then dont like centre right politics. What the fuck did you expect?

Big fat business not to get their hands on the assets, your assets, you know the ones owned by the goverment after they have been devalued to the max. More punishment for blue colar and less for white collar crimes. Greater powers to the secret police.

Rant over.

Don't be stupid and vote these w@nkers in next time.

Now the rant is over.

As I said "more power to the secret police"

You voted for these right wing morons didn't you?

[BoristheBiter]

As I said "more power to the secret police"

You voted for these right wing morons didn't you?

I would be careful what you say as you know they are listening and you will just disappear one day and months late we will be like where's flip and they will be like, flip who? :eek5:

[blue rider]

i think this belongs here....

http://techliberty.org.nz/gcsbs-new-powers-for-wide-spread-spying-on-new-zealanders/

[GCSB Thought Police]

We are not happy with the Tech Liberty NZ organisation and people would be well advised to stay away from it

[HenryDorsetCase]

We are not happy with the Tech Liberty NZ organisation and people would be well advised to stay away from it

Thank you very much for that, esteemed overlord.

By the way, my HDD fried itself, but I can just ask you guys for a full back up copy, right?

[mashman]

We are not happy with the Tech Liberty NZ organisation and people would be well advised to stay away from it

That's just one opinion. I want to feel safe and computers are the only way to do it as there are absolutely no other means of communication that a nasty group of people could use to plan malevolent action.

[HenryDorsetCase]

That's just one opinion. I want to feel safe and computers are the only way to do it as there are absolutely no other means of communication that a nasty group of people could use to plan malevolent action.

plus the fact that the entire "lets snoop on the good guys" brigade have caught zero terrorists has nowt to do with it.

[avgas]

We are not happy with the Tech Liberty NZ organisation and people would be well advised to stay away from it
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9xh8ojG6m1qz7t0mo1_400.jpg

Come back when you get some big boy threats.......or cookies.....I fucking love cookies.

[mashman]

plus the fact that the entire "lets snoop on the good guys" brigade have caught zero terrorists has nowt to do with it.

But we're under attack all the time. I know this because John Key said so. And didn't they catch a couple of guys on a train in Canada who were plotting something really really terroristy relatively recently at around about the same time those two guys and their firework accomplices made a big bang in Boston? The world is an unsafe place my friend, we should be glad that we're being looked after, I mean that they're looking after the economy that looks after us. I'm so scared right now, hold me.

[Brian d marge]

there are LOTS of places in NZ i would happily blow up

Ranfurly

Most of Wellington

Hamilton ( never been there but ,,,)

Nick smith

Fat people

Rugby ,,,,

DB

CD

and Lion brown

Butch dykes

Stephen

I did have a little list somewhere

Prism, terrorist, banks , USA , obama bang ( there ya go America that will help in your search , got to use the right keywords dontcha know)

[BoristheBiter]

Thank you very much for that, esteemed overlord.

By the way, my HDD fried itself, but I can just ask you guys for a full back up copy, right?

I'm sure Julian Assange will have a copy by now. mind you if he has a copy the whole world has read it on wiki-leaks.

[GCSB Thought Police]

I am terribly sorry, but we have little or no interest in most of you and your rather innane lives. (Henry - we did not track back to individual ISPs or equipment, so I am sorry, we cannot give you a back up of your crashed system).

A couple of months ago our American relations asked us to have a closer look at this forum as a number of words and combination of those words popped up on one of their surveillance summaries. I am sure that you can easily work out what words and combinations of those words triggered the alert - if not, have a glance through some of your political forums.) So I have spend a couple of months (off and on) reading through the forum, looking at reputation comments and investigating private messages. (I was tasked with this because I rode a motorcycle back in my universitry days and my superiors thought I might have more empathy and understanding of the messages. I don't.)

Private messages are important as fugitives and terrorists use such to communicate with support peoppe and to plan activities. Such private message systems are much harder to locate than e-mails. The modus operandi is to create a login, then gain private message status as quickly as possible. This is done by posting in the New Members thread, and copy/pasting jokes into a joke thread. Once private message status is gained, no other posts are needed,as it is this facility that the fugitivies/terrorists are interestd in. So far we have no identified anyone on this forum using it in this way. These people can be anywhere in the world, as and that is required to gain access is the home page url and a login.

more follows

[GCSB Thought Police]

We have, however, identified the illicit shipment of certain materials around the country by some members of this forum. This information has been passed to the police. Obviously the GCSB cannot be involved in such activity as passing information to the police, however the use of the police force's own dob-in-your-mate anonymous phone number has been of use here, and this is untraceable back to us.

So, certain members, and especally members of the Kiwi Biker Horticultural Society will be getting visits from our civillian counterparts in the near future.

(oops - urgent job. Back shortly. More follows)

[GCSB Thought Police]

So, given the public revelations this week about Palantir and other international surveillance activities, we decided to test the public reaction to such knowledge by revealing that we are looking into Kiwi Biker. Of course, this is completely deniable, so if this gets into the true public arena of course it wil be denied. We are quite safe. No-one woudl seriously believe the GCSB is surveilling Kiwi Biker looking for terrorist activity anyway.

Our intelligence anaylists are interested in all your reactions to this knowledge and the potential future fallout of such knowledge, especially political fallout. Your co-operation is not requiered, as we wish to observe your natural reactions, rather than the contrived ones which will be used if we asked for cooperation.

[Katman]

Our intelligence anaylists are interested in all your reactions to this knowledge.....

I'm not wearing any pants.

[Banditbandit]

I'm not wearing any pants.

Fuck .. I really needed that image in my head before lunch !!! :sick:

[mashman]

So, certain members, and especally members of the Kiwi Biker Horticultural Society will be getting visits from our civillian counterparts in the near future.

Picking up or dropping off?

[SMOKEU]

I'm not wearing any pants.

Neither am I.

[MIXONE]

I've got a 150+kg Texan living across the road from me and he wears loud hawiian shirts.Surely this is a crime against humanity and a possible terrorist activity when he goes out in public.

[Brian d marge]

I just got this in the mail today .....

Snip
As many of you are probably already aware, the TTB (Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau), which is the federal government agency that controls virtually all things related to alcohol, formally requested the list of sales of distillers, distillation columns, and boilers. The request encompasses all sales of these products (and these products only- supplies and other equipment are not required to be documented) for the past three years, and quarterly reports from this point on. This appears to have been an industry wide movement, as all of the major producers and distributors have received the same request. We are contacting you to let you know that, based on your purchase date and the product(s) that you purchased, your information will be included on our list to the TTB. We have fielded a very large number of phone calls and e-mails asking what the TTB intends to do with this information. This is something that we cannot answer. There are many theories being discussed on various forums, including our own (www.brewhausforum.com (http://www.brewhausforum.com)), however, they are not currently substantiated. Even though it should not have a significant effect to those not using the equipment to distill alcohol or those who have already obtain proper licensing, it can still prove to be an inconvenience should the government act on the information.
One possible positive side to this action is that it has energized many people who support hobby distillation (who are obviously the most concerned over the request), and there is now some movement to press for legalization of hobby distillation. If you would be interested in supporting this movement, please visit our forum.
While this is obviously beyond our control, we are sorry to be the bearer of such news.

I said no , not that it will help

Stephen

[mashman]

I guess when the Key govt said it was wanting transparency and then doing the exact opposite, what they must have meant was that it wanted our privacy to be transparent to whoever will pay for it.

[GCSB Thought Police]

I'm terribly sorry, but no-one pays us. And to suggest such would be to be completely wrong.

However, you did give up your privacy when you voted for the current Government (at least a majority of you did - and it is the majority we care about. The minority of troublemakers will get what they deserve) and when this Government passed the bill which means we get to look into all your lives.

[HenryDorsetCase]

So, given the public revelations this week about Palantir and other international surveillance activities, we decided to test the public reaction to such knowledge by revealing that we are looking into Kiwi Biker. Of course, this is completely deniable, so if this gets into the true public arena of course it wil be denied. We are quite safe. No-one woudl seriously believe the GCSB is surveilling Kiwi Biker looking for terrorist activity anyway.

Our intelligence anaylists are interested in all your reactions to this knowledge and the potential future fallout of such knowledge, especially political fallout. Your co-operation is not requiered, as we wish to observe your natural reactions, rather than the contrived ones which will be used if we asked for cooperation.

Your experiment is flawed because you have changed the outcome by observing it.

[puddytat]

So, given the public revelations this week about Palantir and other international surveillance activities, we decided to test the public reaction to such knowledge by revealing that we are looking into Kiwi Biker. Of course, this is completely deniable, so if this gets into the true public arena of course it wil be denied. We are quite safe. No-one woudl seriously believe the GCSB is surveilling Kiwi Biker looking for terrorist activity anyway.

Our intelligence anaylists are interested in all your reactions to this knowledge and the potential future fallout of such knowledge, especially political fallout. Your co-operation is not requiered, as we wish to observe your natural reactions, rather than the contrived ones which will be used if we asked for cooperation.

I'll tell you what the fallout will be.....ultimately you will be overthrown like so many who have tried this shit in the past.

Do you think that you fellas are going to somehow be immune to the events that are in motion?

[Akzle]

I'm terribly sorry, but no-one pays us. And to suggest such would be to be completely wrong.

you do it for love?

how considerate of you.

derpderp mohammad jihad wogistan IMF.

[Akzle]

http:// imgs.xkcd.com/comics/ mark.png
. .
Hey f*ck you, mods. Give me embed!

[scumdog]

... immune to the events that are in motion?

:eek5::wacko::laugh::killingme:rofl::facepalm:

[BoristheBiter]

Well it looks like you tinfoil hat wearers were right, there are fascists at work.

We were just looking at the wrong side.

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/govt-policy-killing-manufacturing-sector-inquiry-5466774

[mashman]

It can go in here too

Bit of a scarey read really (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/earth-insight/2013/jun/14/climate-change-energy-shocks-nsa-prism?CMP=twt_gu)

"Top secret US National Security Agency (NSA) documents disclosed by the Guardian have shocked the world with revelations of a comprehensive US-based surveillance system with direct access to Facebook, Apple, Google, Microsoft and other tech giants. New Zealand court records suggest that data harvested by the NSA's Prism system has been fed into the Five Eyes intelligence alliance whose members also include the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand."

"The study also warned of a possible shortfall in global oil output by 2015"

"The Pentagon knows that environmental, economic and other crises could provoke widespread public anger toward government and corporations in coming years. The revelations on the NSA's global surveillance programmes are just the latest indication that as business as usual creates instability at home and abroad, and as disillusionment with the status quo escalates, Western publics are being increasingly viewed as potential enemies that must be policed by the state."

[puddytat]

Those are exactly the events that I had in mind there Mashman. ...

[blue rider]

It can go in here too

Bit of a scarey read really (http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/earth-insight/2013/jun/14/climate-change-energy-shocks-nsa-prism?CMP=twt_gu)

"Top secret US National Security Agency (NSA) documents disclosed by the Guardian have shocked the world with revelations of a comprehensive US-based surveillance system with direct access to Facebook, Apple, Google, Microsoft and other tech giants. New Zealand court records suggest that data harvested by the NSA's Prism system has been fed into the Five Eyes intelligence alliance whose members also include the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand."

"The study also warned of a possible shortfall in global oil output by 2015"

"The Pentagon knows that environmental, economic and other crises could provoke widespread public anger toward government and corporations in coming years. The revelations on the NSA's global surveillance programmes are just the latest indication that as business as usual creates instability at home and abroad, and as disillusionment with the status quo escalates, Western publics are being increasingly viewed as potential enemies that must be policed by the state."


Patriot Act, Rogue Nations, USAmerican Interst Overseas...etc...really anyone is surprised by this?

Stasi anyone? the lovely Part of Germany I was not allowed to travel to without a proper German Passport? The funny little place with odd accents and only 11 million people living there that all spied on each other as so called "informal agent'

Maybe I do live in the past, but fuck I do remember that shit well, sitting in Westberlin in Kreuzberg watching the geezer on the other side of the wall watching me. T'was much fun.



Who thinks differently is the enemy.

welcome to the new world order. :killingme

[mashman]

Those are exactly the events that I had in mind there Mashman. ...

Fark it's a mess innit bro. I used to think that my darker thoughts were just mine :facepalm: and now they're turning the screw. I do wonder if it's measures to protect themselves because they're scared about the public's reaction to seeing their darker side... or if they really are that hell bent on control and would happily destroy the place before giving it up and admitting that they're wrong.


Patriot Act, Rogue Nations, USAmerican Interst Overseas...etc...really anyone is surprised by this?

Stasi anyone? the lovely Part of Germany I was not allowed to travel to without a proper German Passport? The funny little place with odd accents and only 11 million people living there that all spied on each other as so called "informal agent'

Maybe I do live in the past, but fuck I do remember that shit well, sitting in Westberlin in Kreuzberg watching the geezer on the other side of the wall watching me. T'was much fun.

Who thinks differently is the enemy.

welcome to the new world order. :killingme

Some of us are only just coming to terms with people who hold such strong beliefs that they'll do anything, and I do mean anything, to protect what they consider to be their way of life. Seeing it happening is surprising for me. Why didn't you warn us eh :innocent:

[puddytat]

. I do wonder if it's measures to protect themselves because they're scared about the public's reaction to seeing their darker side... or if they really are that hell bent on control and would happily destroy the place before giving it up and admitting that they're wrong.
:

The later I think....

[mashman]

The later I think....

Oh gawd... do ya reckon the army's of the west are that loyal to their govts? I know the mindless cops are :corn:

[avgas]

I'm terribly sorry, but no-one pays us. And to suggest such would be to be completely wrong.
http://flipvine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/holy-shit.jpg
Holy shit! - You must work for Mashman then

[avgas]

Those are exactly the events that I had in mind there Mashman. ...
Some say that comets will fall from the sky.........

[mashman]

Some say that comets will fall from the sky.........

You know what that kind of talk does to me... tell me more

[puddytat]

Oh gawd... do ya reckon the army's of the west are that loyal to their govts? I know the mindless cops are :corn:

Yeah I reckon they are , up to a point. But NZEDS somewhat different to the rest of the world & unique in many ways. I'd like to think that the Miltary would never front up to the people of Aotearoa because for those circumstance to arise , well things'll be turning to custard & it wont be an economic or Political crisis that'll have caused it. I expect we'll need them to help save ourselves.

[puddytat]

Its the fault lines that've got me worried......

[mashman]

Yeah I reckon they are , up to a point. But NZEDS somewhat different to the rest of the world & unique in many ways. I'd like to think that the Miltary would never front up to the people of Aotearoa because for those circumstance to arise , well things'll be turning to custard & it wont be an economic or Political crisis that'll have caused it. I expect we'll need them to help save ourselves.

Fuck those thoughts give me the bad shivers and if it gets that bad they can count me in to stand by their side.

[Tarded]

Out of curiosity why do youse think the military or the cops automatically support the govt that they 'work for' ?

They may well not have voted for them.

The politics at the top and the thoughts of those at the face are not automatically aligned.
Its a large assumption.

[blue rider]

Out of curiosity why do youse think the military or the cops automatically support the govt that they 'work for' ?

They may well not have voted for them.

The politics at the top and the thoughts of those at the face are not automatically aligned.
Its a large assumption.

because they get paid to follow orders and to a very large extend will follow orders all the way to hell.
cause if ya don't do anything against the law ya don't have anything to fear.

[Brian d marge]

IF you think its bad now , just have a wee peek at Elizabethan time

That may have had it a bit better , due to the lack of modern knowledge , ( its was all gods doing back then)

So they may have been happier?

but if " the man " was on ya back,,,,, by crickey you knew about it ....

If you were accused of a crime , you could plead or not plead , if you pleaded , then most likey you were guilty in some way and punished ( hung most likely )

if you refused to plead , the laid you down , put a plank along your bogy the rocks ontop until you were crushed

Many people refused to plead

( tough as nails they were in my day , none of this pansy poofie prision , ...I mean in my day they hung you UP ....., by the wrists only took you down if you passed out ...!!)


as for the spy networlk ,,,Charles Chival??? lizzies secretary ...he was the MAN !!!!..... Informed on Himself and nailed Himself to the wall just because he thought about stealing

Stephen

ps sod the spell check , my station is next ,,,,so suffer ,,,,,,i

[Tarded]

well day to day yeah of course but in the 'shit hits the fan acting against their countrymen' scenario I disagree.

Its a job, not a reprogramming despite the popular foil hat view.

I know that debunks a myth very dear to some hearts. Oh well, they will live on.

And yeah obviously if you dont get into shit you dont get nicked. Most laws are pretty simple.

[oneofsix]

because they get paid to follow orders and to a very large extend will follow orders all the way to hell.
cause if ya don't do anything against the law ya don't have anything to fear.

You think Arthur Alan Thomas would be in total agreement with your last sentence? I reckon Kim Dot Com would too but the GCSB/CIA/NSA may yet manage to manufacture find something on him.

[Tarded]

The Arthur Allan Thomas incident is a disgrace.

Kim dot wank is an asshole who deserves whatever we can give him. Fuck off home.

[oneofsix]

The Arthur Allan Thomas incident is a disgrace.

Kim dot wank is an asshole who deserves whatever we can give him. Fuck off home.

That was only two examples. You are really a moron if that is all you know and think about innocent people in NZ being wrongly harmed by authorities and that you will be ok.

Love Donkeys speech about spying in Fairfax today, clearly designed to make morons feel it is fine to be spied on.

[Tarded]

Straight in with the personal insults, priceless.

Thanks for confirming Im right with your lack of argument.

see ya :)

[oneofsix]

Straight in with the personal insults, priceless.

Thanks for confirming Im right with your lack of argument.

see ya :)

Are you saying that is all you know and think about innocents being harmed and that you really think you will be ok by byrying your head in the sand? really?!

Nope can't be cause you never mentioned a lack of argument to me.

[puddytat]

http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/06/18/our-digital-strip-search/

[blue rider]

well day to day yeah of course but in the 'shit hits the fan acting against their countrymen' scenario I disagree.

Its a job, not a reprogramming despite the popular foil hat view.

I know that debunks a myth very dear to some hearts. Oh well, they will live on.

And yeah obviously if you dont get into shit you dont get nicked. Most laws are pretty simple.



Actually no, it takes a certain mind set to become a cop or a soldiers. it involves taking orders and executing them without questions, or else the system would not work.
A cop who question the morality of certain laws would end up enforcing laws only selectively and thus be useless at what he does.

The reason cops can use water canons, tear gas, and batons and tasers oh and sound canons on civilians is precisely because they don't question the morality of it, but use it to enforce compliance.
that is what they get paid for.

Serve and protect? :killingme:

And the mindset that if one does nothing and hence nothing will happen to one? Well, who says you did nothing? You? .

[scissorhands]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C09lJQ4Blks

[Banditbandit]

And yeah obviously if you dont get into shit you dont get nicked. Most laws are pretty simple.


Bwhahahahaha .. such naivity ..


What colour is the power band on your bike?

[BoristheBiter]

Actually no, it takes a certain mind set to become a cop or a soldiers. it involves taking orders and executing them without questions, or else the system would not work.
A cop who question the morality of certain laws would end up enforcing laws only selectively and thus be useless at what he does.

The reason cops can use water canons, tear gas, and batons and tasers oh and sound canons on civilians is precisely because they don't question the morality of it, but use it to enforce compliance.
that is what they get paid for.

Serve and protect? :killingme:

And the mindset that if one does nothing and hence nothing will happen to one? Well, who says you did nothing? You? .

So how would you enforce compliance?

[Banditbandit]

So how would you enforce compliance?

What do you mean by that question ??? To me it looks completely totalitarian ...

[BoristheBiter]

What do you mean by that question ??? To me it looks completely totalitarian ...

Blue rider broached the subject in the above post so I asked the question.

How do you get people to comply. Now I am not talking about Turkey and the government over reaction to a protest, I'm meaning things like the the occupy and general day to day stuff.

And stop using big words, you know i have to Google them.:eek5:

[blue rider]

So how would you enforce compliance?

boris boris without any teeth

pepper spraying a family
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/02/nypd-pepper-spray-baby_n_3001126.html



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lpzn4ST0C9E

i like this one, a kid falls of a bridge and gets tasered for not following the orders of getting up.....lol

i also like this one, the cops were so afraid of the dehumanising stares they had to take down the kid, and charge it a felony..(playing rough in the surf with some mates and holding a puppy while black is clearly a crime)


http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/black-14-year-old-carrying-puppy-tackled-and-choked-police-giving-them-dehumanizing


and the internet, and the newspapers are full of that shit.
this is nothing but enforcement of compliance

boris, get yourself some new dentures

[BoristheBiter]

boris, get yourself some new dentures

See above post and answer the question.

[scissorhands]

So how would you enforce compliance?

Nothing wrong with policing or compliance as such. I'm all for it, rung 111 last night due to a dodgy peep near my car last night

But the introduction of totalitarian governance under the guise of terrorist threat is an appalling way to bring about a fascist state. Compliant suckers allow cunts to do cuntish things. Upstart watchdogs are the bodies monitoring immune system,

what happens when they get whacked by an evil state of profits before people??

Do you realise how many 'halfwits' and mentally peeps are stitched up and doing time? Its bad enough having a mental health system that fails these people, but having cops [some cops] put the boot in, for being born affected by poor parental genes or pollutants and vaccination injury.... is just simply appalling.

The state is creating many of todays monsters by its lack of proper care of citizens, then the tax payer foots the bill.

How much is Pora going to cost everyone in the end?
If the health systems intervened correctly when he was a child, he may have paid $100'sk of tax by now instead of multi million dollar costs due to bad management of unwell citizens

TV has been recently implicated [te harold] in causing crime....
Who's the fucken retard??

[BoristheBiter]

Nothing wrong with policing or compliance as such. I'm all for it, rung 111 last night due to a dodgy peep near my car last night

But the introduction of totalitarian governance under the guise of terrorist threat is an appalling way to bring about a fascist state. Compliant suckers allow cunts to do cuntish things. Upstart watchdogs are are the bodies monitoring immune system,

what happens when they get whacked by an evil state of profits before people??

Do you realise how many 'halfwits' and mentally peeps are stitched up and doing time? Its bad enough having a mental health system that fails these people, but having cops [some cops] put the boot in, for being born affected by poor parental genes or pollutants and vaccination injury.... is just simply appalling.

The state is creating many of todays monsters by its lack of proper care of citizens, then the tax payer foots the bill.

How much is Pora going to cost everyone in the end?
If the health systems intervened correctly when he was a child, he may have paid $100'sk of tax by now instead of multi million dollar costs due to bad management of unwell citizens

TV has been recently implicated [te harold] in causing crime....
Who's the fucken retard??

You or is that a rhetorical question?

I would hazard a guess that there are far more family made "monsters" as you put it that state made ones.
And far more not in jail than in due to our PC bullshit laws, or should that be Judges.

And there would be far more cops bashed in their day to day work than give it out.

[scissorhands]

You or is that a rhetorical question?

I would hazard a guess that there are far more family made "monsters" as you put it that state made ones.
And far more not in jail than in due to our PC bullshit laws, or should that be Judges.

And there would be far more cops bashed in their day to day work than give it out.

te harold regarding television states otherwise
even if parenting is implicated, the states lack of intervention on behalf of spawn is a crime
defective peeps are breeding unaware of offspring health issues because no one is telling them so

There are two types of people, those who know they are crazy and those who dont.
I may may have an autism spectrum disoder, and you may have psychopathy going by your lack of understanding and empathy.

If you want to support a totalitarian state, fine, stand in line with all the others.
If I want to support a future where peeps are allowed to protest anti people money corporations, I will.

There certainly are plenty of criminals running around free as a bird, and many of them wear a suit.:yawn:

[oneofsix]

So how would you enforce compliance?

You don't enforce compliance if your job is really to serve and protect. You can obtain compliance through respect etc as do good teachers, parents etc. When you resort to force you are a failure.

[BoristheBiter]

te harold regarding television states otherwise
even if parenting is implicated, the states lack of intervention on behalf of spawn is a crime
defective peeps are breeding unaware of offspring health issues because no one is telling them so

There are two types of people, those who know they are crazy and those who dont.
I may may have an autism spectrum disoder, and you may have psychopathy going by your lack of understanding and empathy.

If you want to support a totalitarian state, fine, stand in line with all the others.
If I want to support a future where peeps are allowed to protest anti people money corporations, I will.

There certainly are plenty of criminals running around free as a bird, and many of them wear a suit.:yawn:

Show me one aspect of where the state is not showing what parents need where children are concerned.

You say that the state should step in and tell family's what they should be doing then you say they should be left alone. What the fuck do you want? Could you see the up roar from people like you if the state went and took kids out of homes that they think are unsuitable?

And you still haven't answered my question "So how would you enforce compliance?" or are you like most and are good at arguing a point but have no actual idea on what it takes to run anything never mind a country.

yep you are right there are plenty of criminals running around as it is your PC bullshit ideas that have caused it.

[BoristheBiter]

You don't enforce compliance if your job is really to serve and protect. You can obtain compliance through respect etc as do good teachers, parents etc. When you resort to force you are a failure.

Now who is being naive?

Sorry it was BB that said that.

Respect starts in the home from when you are born. It has nothing to do with the state.