The Bucket Foundry

[Flettner]

I'd bet the lockwashers are available. Something will have that spline. Z1 lockwashers for the same job are still available - common to a lot of Suzuki's too.

I guess they are if I cared to go and look. Last time I went to the Kawasaki shop to get new clutch plates the young fellow told me an F9 was a stationary engine and didn't need clutch plates:brick:
So we had a little Google and hey presto there are such things as F9's. The lad was good as he must have gone through about six superseded's until we found (I think if I remember right ) 1997 KX 125 plates were suitable (and MUCH better). You know me Grumph I'd rather make something far more complicated :facepalm:
I'm actually feeling a little roughed up, the bloody thing high sided me into a tree, forest is full of them it would seem and they are quite solid. As it was unfolding I kept thinking anything but the hip! Everything else is worse for wear but the hips fine. Long live ceramic and titanium and I'm thankful for cruise control on the way home, not sure what might have happened if I'd needed to use my feet.

[husaberg]

I guess they are if I cared to go and look. Last time I went to the Kawasaki shop to get new clutch plates the young fellow told me an F9 was a stationary engine and didn't need clutch plates:brick:
So we had a little Google and hey presto there are such things as F9's. The lad was good as he must have gone through about six superseded's until we found (I think if I remember right ) 1997 KX 125 plates were suitable (and MUCH better). You know me Grumph I'd rather make something far more complicated :facepalm:

Circlip....................
https://www.juddracing.com/images/uploads/circlip.jpghttp://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/KoIAAOSwwPhWl5FD/s-l225.jpg

I checked it is not available rom Kawaski unless its NOS
H1 H2 S1 S2 S3 A1 A7 F5 F6 1966-79
plus a million other uses
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/kawasaki/KP-92024-067.html


http://www.cmsnl.com/kawasaki-f9-1972-usa-canada_model15113/partslist/8936.html#results
http://www.cmsnl.com/kawasaki-f9-1972-usa-canada_model15113/partslist/
but its just a bit of mild steel.

[Flettner]

I know, you win, easy to make one, OK I'll just do it:yawn: Or better still I'll make a press tool and stamp out heaps of them for all those other Kawasaki Bighorn users. Right.

[husaberg]

I know, you win, easy to make one, OK I'll just do it:yawn:

Why not make 100-200 and sell the rest on the kawaka triple web page.
They are 9$ plus us on Ebay for nos

[WilDun]

Last time I went to the Kawasaki shop to get new clutch plates the young fellow told me an F9 was a stationary engine and didn't need clutch plates ...................
I'm actually feeling a little roughed up, the bloody thing high sided me into a tree,.................As it was unfolding I kept thinking anything but the hip! Everything else is worse for wear but the hips fine.

I thought I told you to be careful!! not much sense in having a good bike, a perfect hip and a broken body! seems you are taking this tree hugging thing to the extreme. :msn-wink:

I was looking for a piston for an engine project and I had my vernier with me and was measuring a chainsaw piston. The young guy in the shop asked me what I was looking for, I explained that I wanted it to try in my bike engine, he looked at me in pity and disgust and said "look,you can't use that for a bike, don't you understand, it's for a chainsaw - duh" :rolleyes:

[Michael Moore]

That's like the counter guy at the welding store that was of the opinion that there was TIG, MIG, and Arc welding. Anything done with an O/A torch was brazing. I'd asked him for some welding rod and mentioned that I was using a torch and he brought out brazing rod. "No, that's brazing rod, I need some welding rod" I told him. "Nope, if it is with a flame that's brazing, this is what you need."

Kind of scary. I finally left without any rod at all.

cheers,
Michael

[Ocean1]

That's like the counter guy at the welding store that was of the opinion that there was TIG, MIG, and Arc welding. Anything done with an O/A torch was brazing. I'd asked him for some welding rod and mentioned that I was using a torch and he brought out brazing rod. "No, that's brazing rod, I need some welding rod" I told him. "Nope, if it is with a flame that's brazing, this is what you need."

Kind of scary. I finally left without any rod at all.

cheers,
Michael

I blame the parents...

[Grumph]

I thought I told you to be careful!! not much sense in having a good bike, a perfect hip and a broken body! seems you are taking this tree hugging thing to the extreme. :msn-wink:

I was looking for a piston for an engine project and I had my vernier with me and was measuring a chainsaw piston. The young guy in the shop asked me what I was looking for, I explained that I wanted it to try in my bike engine, he looked at me in pity and disgust and said "look,you can't use that for a bike, don't you understand, it's for a chainsaw - duh" :rolleyes:


That's like the counter guy at the welding store that was of the opinion that there was TIG, MIG, and Arc welding. Anything done with an O/A torch was brazing. I'd asked him for some welding rod and mentioned that I was using a torch and he brought out brazing rod. "No, that's brazing rod, I need some welding rod" I told him. "Nope, if it is with a flame that's brazing, this is what you need."

Kind of scary. I finally left without any rod at all.

cheers,
Michael

You guys do realise we're practising a dying art form ? Actually working in metal outside Asia.....Will, your guy may never have seen a 2 stroke bike.
Michael - if you've read the stuff about rods on the Chassis thread, you'll know now what it's like at some places here where they can't tell you what the rod is they're selling...

[WilDun]

.....Will, your guy may never have seen a 2 stroke bike

Doubt if he had ever seen anything, he wouldn't have known what he was looking at anyway! there was a display board in the shop with lawnmower engines, the two strokes were attached upside down (and that was ok) but the four stroke Briggs engines were also mounted upside down (and of course were pissing oil over everything!) - I suspect the same guy was responsible for that!

I think he thought that I must be up to some skullduggery, because he kept following me around!

Yes, I agree that the parents (or possibly the lack of) were responsible!

Maybe I'd better get back to foundry stuff now that I have digressed somewhat from the original thread! :rolleyes:

[Bert]

For a lack of a better thread to post on; almost a second cousin of foundry works...

Fibreglassing - mold making issue.
I've been making a mold for a engine cover (final to be carbon Kevlar). Anyone got any tricks for stopping the plug sticking to the female mold? I waxed with release wax (three coats). But she is stuck solid... Guilty of not gel coating (and being hopeful)...

Read alittle about hairspray, some PVA poly-something-a-rather.

Cheap solution would be great.

[mr bucketracer]

For a lack of a better thread to post on; almost a second cousin of foundry works...

Fibreglassing - mold making issue.
I've been making a mold for a engine cover (final to be carbon Kevlar). Anyone got any tricks for stopping the plug sticking to the female mold? I waxed with release wax (three coats). But she is stuck solid... Guilty of not gel coating (and being hopeful)...

Read alittle about hairspray, some PVA poly-something-a-rather.

Cheap solution would be great.packageing tape works good

[Flettner]

For a lack of a better thread to post on; almost a second cousin of foundry works...

Fibreglassing - mold making issue.
I've been making a mold for a engine cover (final to be carbon Kevlar). Anyone got any tricks for stopping the plug sticking to the female mold? I waxed with release wax (three coats). But she is stuck solid... Guilty of not gel coating (and being hopeful)...

Read alittle about hairspray, some PVA poly-something-a-rather.

Cheap solution would be great.

What about that PTFE (green can) spray I use it a bit for making a surface non stick.

[Bert]

packageing tape works good

Not quite for this job, after all the effort getting the plug sorted.


What about that PTFE (green can) spray I use it a bit for making a surface non stick.

Hadn't thought of that. I'll go hunting.

Cheers
Guys

[husaberg]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MM1eKaBCL._AC_UL320_SR160,320_.jpg
plus more draft.......

[Grumph]

For a lack of a better thread to post on; almost a second cousin of foundry works...

Fibreglassing - mold making issue.
I've been making a mold for a engine cover (final to be carbon Kevlar). Anyone got any tricks for stopping the plug sticking to the female mold? I waxed with release wax (three coats). But she is stuck solid... Guilty of not gel coating (and being hopeful)...

Read alittle about hairspray, some PVA poly-something-a-rather.

Cheap solution would be great.

Glad wrap....

[ken seeber]

When we made some coreboxes, we used 3 things:
1. Wax
2. Then PVA release agent (from fibreglass suppliers)
3. Air pressure. With a hole roughly in the centre of the mould, blow shop air in. If you haven't got a hole, then drill down til you reach the interface. Can come off with as bang, so some caution required. What time will you be doing it, so I can go outside to listen. :thud:

322794

[Flettner]

Spare afternoon, still needs a filler plug hole, water pump lug and some sacrificial lugs around the sides so as to be able to hold the casting on the mill bed for machining. Cut off once they have done their job. And a bit more sanding / painting.

[Flettner]

More of the same. I've drawn up the flywheel case so might have a go at machining it from solid.

[husaberg]

More of the same. I've drawn up the flywheel case so might have a go at machining it from solid.

That clutch almost doubles the size of that engine.

[ken seeber]

Hooser, it's for good reason.

When you double the power, you need a doubly strong clutch.:apumpin:

[Flettner]

That clutch almost doubles the size of that engine.

If all went to plan at least one of the cylinders to test on this bottom end might push 50HP (probably not if I'm involved) but with the right person on the tuning end it's possible. So a big clutch might be useful and that's why a 250T gearbox.

[WilDun]

If all went to plan at least one of the cylinders to test on this bottom end might push 50HP (probably not if I'm involved) but with the right person on the tuning end it's possible. So a big clutch might be useful and that's why a 250T gearbox.

All great stuff no doubt ..........but who is knowledgeable enough on these prototypes to be able to tune them?
I think that in the case of the sleeve valve prototype, the expert is long gone, as is the originator of the idea for the (proposed ?) geared crank!
The builder of the original prototype (which no doubt inspired the other one - ie. Frits) is half a world away thinking up more ways and means I guess!
Also the other guy working with the spinoff is way way across the Tassie (+ the width of Aussie! - ie Ken)
So good old NZ is just waiting to see what happens and I'm sure we'll (at least all the bucketeers and experimenters) be supporting you as always and as always, I could be wrong!

It's all up to you Flettner! :niceone:

[Flettner]

Sacrificial lugs for attaching to the mill bed to facilitate machining, raised part for the CNC to engrave on, filler plug lug and a pad for the water pump attachment. I want to use different pumps for different engines. Here I will use the double scroll for the sleeve engine. Paint, sand, then cast.
Opps, I see this pump is the wrong direction, just mirror image on the computer and get the CNC to cut an opposite one.

[Flettner]

Finished, can't be bothered to set up the foundry for this one item (in the rain). I'll send this one out. But I will be casting some cylinders soon in LM13 when the weather get's a bit better. FOS / Ryger hybrid and a two exhaust port 160cc cylinder with just otherwise normal modern porting. And perhaps another unspecified cylinder, will only take pictures if the owner (of the patterns) allows.

[ken seeber]

Fletto, good to see more foundry stuff coming thru. Quick question, is that just grey primer surfacer you have used or something special?

Slider cylinder. Sort of coming along. Has now been plated and on its way back from NZ Cylinder, somewhere down south in Antarctica. Now the bottom end is complete with mains and seals, bit of mucking around with seal sleeves and getting the end float right, as the crank and crankcases are from different engines.

323343

[Flettner]

What kind of third world (engineeringly) do we live in here in NZ. Rencast, not available now (for patternmaking). Can only get it out of Australia at 12 sets ($380 a set) in one order, and it has a shelf life. So I order a new product called ??? not sure, only to find it's been on the shelf for soo long that it's all gone hard. Tomorrow I'm going to ring around pattern making shops, if there are any left, and find out what they use.
I think the Fiberglass Shop might have something similar but you have to order and wait a lifetime. This is just bull shit!
Ok rant over, I see Smoothon EpoxAcast 655 might do the trick, low shrinkage, very important:laugh: But I think you have to order and wait.

[husaberg]

What kind of third world (engineeringly) do we live in here in NZ. Rencast, not available now (for patternmaking). Can only get it out of Australia at 12 sets ($380 a set) in one order, and it has a shelf life. So I order a new product called ??? not sure, only to find it's been on the shelf for soo long that it's all gone hard. Tomorrow I'm going to ring around pattern making shops, if there are any left, and find out what they use.
I think the Fiberglass Shop might have something similar but you have to order and wait a lifetime. This is just shit!
Ok rant over, I see Smoothon EpoxAcast 655 might do the trick, low shrinkage, very important:laugh: But I think you have to order and wait.

Give me the product number Yoda

https://www.freemansupply.com/products/liquid-tooling-materials/polyurethane-elastomers/overnight-cure-urethane-elastomers---semi-rigid/rencast-6444-wear-resistant-foundry-urethane
https://www.freemansupply.com/products/foundry-tools-supplies

I thought you meant the resin sand for a minute, but that's macrbo or something isn't it.
https://www.acornmodels.co.nz/products/general-modelling-materials/alumilite-corporation/
http://www.nzfibreglass.co.nz/2015/

[Yow Ling]

What kind of third world (engineeringly) do we live in here in NZ. Rencast, not available now (for patternmaking). Can only get it out of Australia at 12 sets ($380 a set) in one order, and it has a shelf life. So I order a new product called ??? not sure, only to find it's been on the shelf for soo long that it's all gone hard. Tomorrow I'm going to ring around pattern making shops, if there are any left, and find out what they use.
I think the Fiberglass Shop might have something similar but you have to order and wait a lifetime. This is just bull shit!
Ok rant over, I see Smoothon EpoxAcast 655 might do the trick, low shrinkage, very important:laugh: But I think you have to order and wait.

I have some if you are in the shit

[Flettner]

O well, I sent the clutch case pattern to Neals Foundry in Porirua, asked for three units (in CC601) in the end and they have a rumbler for a nice finish. I have to head down to Porirua in the next week or two so I'll call in and pick the castings up and have a look around their facility. Yow Ling, thank you, but you will use that Rencast. It's worth gold now! I've found a product from the Fiberglass shop so I'll give that a try.
Out of interest, the Rencast is real nice because it does not shrink when it sets but in fact as it gets old and past it's best use by date (hang on we are talking about Rencast here aren't we?) it's reaction gets hotter as it sets. When mixed with micro balloons filler, the air inside these micro balloons expands and the resin ozzes out the pouring hole. if this new resin shrinks then this might be a way of mitigating the shrinkage problem, maybe?

[Drew]

Does that expansion not deform the pattern as the filler hole area sets?

[Flettner]

Does that expansion not deform the pattern as the filler hole area sets?

No, usually what I'm setting the resin in is a solid box or block of some sort, I guess if the mould box was thin and flexible it might distort but it doesn't generally seem to be a problem.

[Ocean1]

O well, I sent the clutch case pattern to Neals Foundry

Neals Foundry 2016 Ltd.

Has changed hands again?

[Flettner]

Neals Foundry 2016 Ltd.

Has changed hands again?

A bit of a story it seems, the owner went broke but was bought out by one of his customers (boat builder maybe?) but the old owner now just works there as the floor manager. I don't know? we will see, at least the clutch case is simple. It may or may not be a good foundry but I want to find out. I'm using Skellerns in Auckland at the moment for all my Aviation gearbox castings, they finally produce a nice product but very expensive! I'd like to just have a backup option. There are not many options in NZ now.

[Ocean1]

A bit of a story it seems, the owner went broke but was bought out by one of his customers (boat builder maybe?) but the old owner now just works there as the floor manager. I don't know? we will see, at least the clutch case is simple. It may or may not be a good foundry but I want to find out. I'm using Skellerns in Auckland at the moment for all my Aviation gearbox castings, they finally produce a nice product but very expensive! I'd like to just have a backup option. There are not many options in NZ now.

I used to use Neals quite a bit, mostly for bronze boat fittings. Been around for yonks, picked up a lot of Cables work when they died. It's changed hands quite a bit since then but over at least three owners they usually managed to get my stuff right.

Not using green sand nowadays, someone said. Newfangled stuff will never take off...

[Flettner]

I used to use Neals quite a bit, mostly for bronze boat fittings. Been around for yonks, picked up a lot of Cables work when they died. It's changed hands quite a bit since then but over at least three owners they usually managed to get my stuff right.

Not using green sand nowadays, someone said. Newfangled stuff will never take off...

Said they were using Fenotec, chemical with a hardener, mixed with the sand and delivered to the mold by a machine. Time set, ram the mold and leave for ten minutes, then remove the pattern. Like I said, we will see.
I'm getting braver with the 3D drawing program I have a little stack of Aluminium off cuts, all paid for from a job, so the next case might well be CNC cut? Just when I think I'm on to it (3D program) I find a new brick wall and my worker, who knows all about the program, but I'm too proud (stupid) to ask anyway, has gone on holiday to Europe for ten weeks. Keep hammering away I guess.

[Ocean1]

Said they were using Fenotec, chemical with a hardener, mixed with the sand and delivered to the mold by a machine. Time set, ram the mold and leave for ten minutes, then remove the pattern. Like I said, we will see.

Another local old timer is Borren Metals: http://borrenmetal.co.nz/

Investment casting specialists. Might be a bit pricey for one-offs but a dozen or more would probably be competitive. I used to get them to shell mould delicate wee stainless bits, I've never had them do alloy but I'd be surprised if they didn't do it.

No draught requirements, (in fact negative draught is fine) effectively no allowance for surface discrepancies, better resolution, less porosity. All means tighter tolerances with thinner wall castings and the ability to cast finer gussets and tighter radius fillets.

And I'd be surprised of they couldn't print wax cores direct from your CAD files...

[Flettner]

Another local old timer is Borren Metals: http://borrenmetal.co.nz/

Investment casting specialists. Might be a bit pricey for one-offs but a dozen or more would probably be competitive. I used to get them to shell mould delicate wee stainless bits, I've never had them do alloy but I'd be surprised if they didn't do it.

No draught requirements, (in fact negative draught is fine) effectively no allowance for surface discrepancies, better resolution, less porosity. All means tighter tolerances with thinner wall castings and the ability to cast finer gussets and tighter radius fillets.

And I'd be surprised of they couldn't print wax cores direct from your CAD files...

CAD files, you mock, :lol:

But good to know, thankyou.

[Ocean1]

CAD files, you mock, :lol:

OK, send me the wooden bits and I'll get them scanned, import them to Rhino, tweak it for shrinkage and spit it out as an stl. Done. :drinknsin

[ken seeber]

Well, we had a delivery, a beautifully plated sliding cylinder from kiwiland. Next thing is to get a piston for it.

Turns out there is a place right near us that does these, so will put the word on them. :laugh:

Now I can do the cylinder head to suit the bore size plus the ring and O ring grooves can be machined all in the one setup.

323373

[Flettner]

NICE, now you stay in that workshop until it makes noise out the exhaust! OK. Tell the wife you have strippers at work and can't come home or something, anything, just make it go. We can't wait.:done:

[Flettner]

Epicycloid crank, missing one of the crank webs. This is a fully supported crank system.

[Flettner]

While we are at it, the beam crank system.

[breezy]

While we are at it, the beam crank system.

which of these cranks do you feel would take the most abuse / rpm level?

[breezy]

Well, we had a delivery, a beautifully plated sliding cylinder from kiwiland. Next thing is to get a piston for it.

Turns out there is a place right near us that does these, so will put the word on them. :laugh:

Now I can do the cylinder head to suit the bore size plus the ring and O ring grooves can be machined all in the one setup.

323373

ken, what are your expectations with regard to this design?

[Flettner]

which of these cranks do you feel would take the most abuse / rpm level?

That's the problem, I don't know which one to pursue? I expect the epicycloid would be best for rpm, it has the lightest oscillating components but it also has a bushing in between the the cranks that is turning at double speed. This could be a problem. I have a specific cylinder in mind for these (one of these) bottom ends. It's an FOS / Ryger (or should I say just a high pressure bottom end rather than ryger) it has three high pressure ports at quite a high angle up into the combustion chamber and three more leading in under these, being straight from atmosphere, no crankcase pump. All at 60 degrees to each other, alternative. The three transfers from atmosphere also act as piston port to fill the high pressure crank case, double jobs. Fueling will be via standard EFI injection into these ports but only the crank case will see fuel as when these ports are flowing straight into the cylinder they will flow only air as the injectors will be off at this point. Perhaps at high speed they will also flow fuel but I don't know about that yet.
I had thought (and am leaving enough sleeve length in the casting) to fit the HCCI top end. This will allow me to regulate this engine fuel only with a full air charge each cycle. Alternatively if I ran this new cylinder on the beam bottom end I could just vary the compression to achieve HCCI with perhaps some control? Knock sensor attached to a servo to adjust the compression eccentric and maybe an exhaust valve, on the fly. Too many ideas at once I think:facepalm:

[Frits Overmars]

I too would pick the epicycloid for simplicity and revs, and for the possibility to build an opposed twin with very few extra parts, or use the other end of the con rod for other means, pumping for example.
The beam crank does allow compression ratio variation, but unlike your small double-rpm HCCI crank, the pressure rise may be too slow for good control.

[ken seeber]

ken, what are your expectations with regard to this design?

Breezy, there are 3 expectation or reasons for trying this:

1. High output (read road racing) 2 strokes can suffer from severe detonation at high revs and small throttle openings when the scavenging pressure that was lower than the cylinder pressure at transfer opening, so a lot of hot spent gases entered the transfer ducts and heated the fresh mixture even before it was compressed in the cylinder.
2. Essentially the design provides what is known as “variable valve timing”, which in this case will allow the exhaust system to work over a wider rev range, giving a wider powerband.
3. At low loads and speeds it will offer a much more stable scavenging stream (due to the higher velocity obtainable with the much lower ports) offering improved “cycle to cycle” combustion event stability, ideally it will be a 2 stroke that 2 strokes at idle. This implies a significant reduction in HCs and fuel consumption

Time will tell. I suppose I'd bettter get on to making some more bits, but been a bit distracted with Fletto's strippers. :msn-wink:

[breezy]

Do we know what range of compression ratios are required to initiate and sustain hcci running with just low grade pump fuel? would anyone know if the nitrogen expelled from normal combustion be the same as that added to increase performance in race car engines?

i liked the spark plug link, posted earlier in the thread, think used in f1 engines. small amount of fuel combusted to provide heat to initiate /control better combustion of the remaining fuel charge, perhaps pre combustion area in cylinder head .:sherlock:

[ken seeber]

Slider report. Piston done and shortened. Note, as the transfers occupy all the real estate at BDC, the piston cane be shortened, something that had to be done anyway to provide a sufficient flow path area from inside the piston and the crank/crankcase when at BDC.
With the cylinder plated, the head, which spigots into the bore of the sliding cylinder and also guide it, could be turned down to a sliding fit within the bore. Then, with some old and dodgy radius turning gizmo I had, was able to shape the head to suit the 100 radius of the piston. This will be continued to be cut to provide the target 0.07 squish clearance. After this, the actual bowl can be machined in.

323404323405323406323407


NICE, now you stay in that workshop until it makes noise out the exhaust! OK. Tell the wife you have strippers at work and can't come home or something, anything, just make it go. We can't wait.:done:

Stripper update. Can’t say. :psst:

[PVO]

Flettner or anyone who has been getting started with castings I have been looking at getting a few books. Any chance you've read or heard of: The Complete Handbook of Sand Casting, Metal Casting: A Sand Casting Manual for the Small Foundry, Vol. 1 and 2? If not I'll, probably order anyway and report back!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/083061043X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I371EZZWYS0KUL

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970220324/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I36ESQ3SSQ3QAI

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970220332/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I1BD8Y316F8WCJ

Thanks,
Paul

[Flettner]

Flettner or anyone who has been getting started with castings I have been looking at getting a few books. Any chance you've read or heard of: The Complete Handbook of Sand Casting, Metal Casting: A Sand Casting Manual for the Small Foundry, Vol. 1 and 2? If not I'll, probably order anyway and report back!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/083061043X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I371EZZWYS0KUL

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970220324/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I36ESQ3SSQ3QAI

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970220332/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I1BD8Y316F8WCJ

Thanks,
Paul
Yes they all look like good books, worth reading I'm sure.

I was lucky enough to work in a foundry for a while and along side a very experienced pattern maker, taught me a lot.

Paul, nice bike by the way (the H2)

[husaberg]

Yes they all look like good books, worth reading I'm sure.

I was lucky enough to work in a foundry for a while and along side a very experienced pattern maker, taught me a lot.

Paul, nice bike by the way (the H2)


Flettner or anyone who has been getting started with castings I have been looking at getting a few books. Any chance you've read or heard of: The Complete Handbook of Sand Casting, Metal Casting: A Sand Casting Manual for the Small Foundry, Vol. 1 and 2? If not I'll, probably order anyway and report back!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/083061043X/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I371EZZWYS0KUL

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970220324/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I36ESQ3SSQ3QAI

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0970220332/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=SWMVVCGIIQ77&coliid=I1BD8Y316F8WCJ

Thanks,
Paul
Another one Paul
https://c2249bf946246ad88d7d22cd7f15faaef438e4b0.googledri ve.com/host/0BxGFq8njD-T-UWFvTjlYUXVFWjQ/Tukijem/the-backyard-foundry-kindle-pdf-download.pdf

https://www.scribd.com/doc/127045351/Workshop-Practice-Series-25-The-Backyard-Foundry

[Flettner]

Castings back from Neal's Foundry.

[Ocean1]

Castings back from Neal's Foundry.

They look all right Neil, not bad turn around either.

Price was OK?

[PVO]

Another one Paul
https://c2249bf946246ad88d7d22cd7f15faaef438e4b0.googledri ve.com/host/0BxGFq8njD-T-UWFvTjlYUXVFWjQ/Tukijem/the-backyard-foundry-kindle-pdf-download.pdf

https://www.scribd.com/doc/127045351/Workshop-Practice-Series-25-The-Backyard-Foundry

Thanks Husaberg!

[PVO]

Yes they all look like good books, worth reading I'm sure.

I was lucky enough to work in a foundry for a while and along side a very experienced pattern maker, taught me a lot.

Paul, nice bike by the way (the H2)

Thanks Neil. I fancy making a modern triple at some point. I finally got a workshop so I can get on with all the projects and try to catch up to you and others doing interesting work!

[Flettner]

Thanks Neil. I fancy making a modern triple at some point. I finally got a workshop so I can get on with all the projects and try to catch up to you and others doing interesting work!

Me too, I've been pondering over a modern triple myself. Every time I get enthusiastic I remember all the unfinished projects:(
But In saying that I do have an interested party that want's one (as well as me) so the design process continues. First it was going to be a 1050cc three using my own cylinders off the 700 twin gyro engine, but then it got down graded to a 700 twin (with a balance shaft). BUT now it's down graded again to 480 three. I'm building a 160cc (58 x 58 ) cylinder to suit this bottom end bolted in the YZ250 frame, with just standard, modern, port arrangement (two versions, one a bridged port and one a single with eye ports). So three times 160 cylinders but in a line? Firing the two outside cylinders together and the middle one 180 degrees later, (better for mechanical balance) or turn it into a V?
I'm keen on the three in line as it will be easier to make, center cylinder pointing backwards, water cooled cases, possible EFI too.
But this is all just dream land at the moment.
You know I do have these patterns here for a rotary valve 700 tandem twin engine (ex gyro engine ), can't help day dreaming about that as a street bike. Thin and lite, goobs of power:eek:
Might be 153cc, not 160cc opps.

[Flettner]

They look all right Neil, not bad turn around either.

Price was OK?

I couldn't wait so I got them to send the casting back to me, yes they were fast turn around. The finish is ok I have seen better but will be fine for what it's doing. Cost, well, I guess they need to stay in business but I did think @ $90 each was on the high end (plus GST) perhaps I'm just a tight old bastard.
So I'm still heading down your way this weekend, might take you up on that beer.

[husaberg]

http://www.motohistory.net/news2009/news-oct09.html
Some rotary valve engines I have never seen.

[Ocean1]

I couldn't wait so I got them to send the casting back to me, yes they were fast turn around. The finish is ok I have seen better but will be fine for what it's doing. Cost, well, I guess they need to stay in business but I did think @ $90 each was on the high end (plus GST) perhaps I'm just a tight old bastard.
So I'm still heading down your way this weekend, might take you up on that beer.

No worries, give me a call when it's beer time.

[Flettner]

Ok, EpoxAcast 655, not worth it. All it seems to want to do is stick to my molds, paint on able wax sort of works but can not be trusted. So I thought teflon spray, nothing sticks to that, wrong I found 655 will stick real well:weep:
Buggered one of my port dies! As I've said ,that is why it's a good idea to put the original shape on the shelf, make a copy and use that. In this case the die is unrepairable so at least I can start again without having to make the original shape from scratch again.
Today I learned of another resin called FG 130, apparently special for patternmaking like the Rencast. AND paint on able wax will work as a release agent. Saved:yes:

[husaberg]

Ok, EpoxAcast 655, not worth it. All it seems to want to do is stick to my molds, paint on able wax sort of works but can not be trusted. So I thought teflon spray, nothing sticks to that, wrong I found 655 will stick real well:weep:
Buggered one of my port dies! As I've said ,that is why it's a good idea to put the original shape on the shelf, make a copy and use that. In this case the die is unrepairable so at least I can start again without having to make the original shape from scratch again.
Today I learned of another resin called FG 130, apparently special for patternmaking like the Rencast. AND paint on able wax will work as a release agent. Saved:yes:

I linked this earlier, it seems really inexpensive Neil, I don't know anything about it though.

http://www.nzfibreglass.co.nz/2015/shopexd.asp?id=106

[Flettner]

I linked this earlier, it seems really inexpensive Neil, I don't know anything about it though.

http://www.nzfibreglass.co.nz/2015/shopexd.asp?id=106

Tried that, gets too hot (in thick sections) and shrinks too much, it's rubbish, can't be any good if it doesn't cost a lot:laugh:, but thanks anyway. Am I heading out to Main Freight shortly, Husa?
The key with pattern making resins is it can't shrink or expand because when you do a copy of a copy it needs to stay the same size. AND it needs to NOT stick to the mold it's in, quite important, a real bugger if it does!

[husaberg]

Tried that, gets too hot (in thick sections) and shrinks too much, it's rubbish, can't be any good if it doesn't cost a lot:laugh:, but thanks anyway. Am I heading out to Main Freight shortly, Husa?
The key with pattern making resins is it can't shrink or expand because when you do a copy of a copy it needs to stay the same size. AND it needs to NOT stick to the mold it's in, quite important, a real bugger if it does!

from what I have seen all the proper casting resins have some metal in them such as Aluminium maybe time for DIY.
As for mainfreight if I get fnished before dark tomorrow I will do some packing.


https://www.smooth-on.com/products/task-18/

OK it seems polyester is hot stinky sticky and not so dimensionally accurate
It seems after a quick net troll it needs to be a urethane casting resin on the most part reinforced with Aluminium.


https://www.fibreglassshop.co.nz/products/smooth-cast-semi-rigid-urethane-casting-resins
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Arts_Crafts/ComposiCast-3770-Urethane-Resin-2-pounds/0722301868041
http://www.reynoldsam.com/product/smooth-cast-385/
http://www.reynoldsam.com/product/smooth-cast-380/
https://bjbenterprises.com/index.php/polyurethanes/castable/
http://www.silpak.com/pdfs/SUPURCAST80PDS.pdf


this is a very interesting product Neil
http://www.speedliner.co.nz/hydrospan-100/

[ken seeber]

There's a place near us that sells Rencast and lots of other related stuff

http://www.kirkside.com.au/D125/rencast-fc52/

That Hydrospan look interesting. I guess you'd need to experiment a bit to control the expansion accurately.

[tjbw]

http://www.motohistory.net/news2009/news-oct09.html
Some rotary valve engines I have never seen.

Some new to me as well.

Surprised though that the Aspin valve is described as a "disk" when I would think of it as conical.

More info and images of Aspin and many other rotary valves here:

http://www.villiers.info/Aspin/AspinEssay/essay.htm

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/RotaryValveIC/RotaryValveIC.htm

[PVO]

Me too, I've been pondering over a modern triple myself. Every time I get enthusiastic I remember all the unfinished projects:(
But In saying that I do have an interested party that want's one (as well as me) so the design process continues. First it was going to be a 1050cc three using my own cylinders off the 700 twin gyro engine, but then it got down graded to a 700 twin (with a balance shaft). BUT now it's down graded again to 480 three. I'm building a 160cc (58 x 58 ) cylinder to suit this bottom end bolted in the YZ250 frame, with just standard, modern, port arrangement (two versions, one a bridged port and one a single with eye ports). So three times 160 cylinders but in a line? Firing the two outside cylinders together and the middle one 180 degrees later, (better for mechanical balance) or turn it into a V?
I'm keen on the three in line as it will be easier to make, center cylinder pointing backwards, water cooled cases, possible EFI too.
But this is all just dream land at the moment.
You know I do have these patterns here for a rotary valve 700 tandem twin engine (ex gyro engine ), can't help day dreaming about that as a street bike. Thin and lite, goobs of power:eek:
Might be 153cc, not 160cc opps.

I've played with the V idea and the inline. I had given up on the inline due to how much extra width it took but recently revisited the concept this weekend. A friend that played in the outboard world got me thinking about canting the cylinders 25 degrees or so. This allows the transfers to overlap. Look up the Mercury 1.5L Optimax series for a visual reference. When I tried this conceptually it took 40mm off the width and brought it to a point where the width was nearly the same as the V configuration I drew up. I was working with a 250cc single cylinder and believe I could make additional width improvements with a few tweaks. I was planning on a 750 and 900 triple using common cases.

While mechanical balance is better as you described I was thinking of opting for the 120 layout. This would allow for a 3-1 pipe which would yield strong pulse tuning between the cylinders. This could provide a very broad power curve and help with packaging. Of course, I would also design so that I could fit 3 pipes in just in case!

Paul

[Drew]

Wouldn't exit direction waves cancel the returning wave?

My head is turning inside out trying to visualize it.

[Ocean1]

Tried that, gets too hot (in thick sections) and shrinks too much, it's rubbish, can't be any good if it doesn't cost a lot:laugh:, but thanks anyway. Am I heading out to Main Freight shortly, Husa?
The key with pattern making resins is it can't shrink or expand because when you do a copy of a copy it needs to stay the same size. AND it needs to NOT stick to the mold it's in, quite important, a real bugger if it does!

I used to use araldite K83..... this: http://www.nuplexconstruction.com/pdf/Araldite_K83.pdf

Which worked very well. Does get hot in large lumps, but all epoxies will to some extent and it wasn't a problem with sections 20mm thick. The exothermic over-reaction problem often starts in mixing it in a deep container, it needs to be in a shallow pool or it will take off.

In fact I've probably still got some K83 somewhere. If so it'll be 5-6 years old but may be still good...

[Grumph]

I've played with the V idea and the inline. I had given up on the inline due to how much extra width it took but recently revisited the concept this weekend. A friend that played in the outboard world got me thinking about canting the cylinders 25 degrees or so. This allows the transfers to overlap. Look up the Mercury 1.5L Optimax series for a visual reference. When I tried this conceptually it took 40mm off the width and brought it to a point where the width was nearly the same as the V configuration I drew up. I was working with a 250cc single cylinder and believe I could make additional width improvements with a few tweaks. I was planning on a 750 and 900 triple using common cases.

While mechanical balance is better as you described I was thinking of opting for the 120 layout. This would allow for a 3-1 pipe which would yield strong pulse tuning between the cylinders. This could provide a very broad power curve and help with packaging. Of course, I would also design so that I could fit 3 pipes in just in case!

Paul

Have a look also at the Suzuki 750 triple which used twisted cylinders to narrow the block. I have some experience with the inline 180 degree triple layout - Laverda used it. Interesting....the 120 is easier to balance and the 3:1 pipe does work. Balancing using only crankwebs and retaining the same volumes for each crank chamber is way easier with the 120 layout too. Invariably with the 180 triple, the center webs must be heavier. Easy in a 4 stroke, but not so in a 2 stroke.

[Drew]

Have a look also at the Suzuki 750 triple which used twisted cylinders to narrow the block. I have some experience with the inline 180 degree triple layout - Laverda used it. Interesting....the 120 is easier to balance and the 3:1 pipe does work. Balancing using only crankwebs and retaining the same volumes for each crank chamber is way easier with the 120 layout too. Invariably with the 180 triple, the center webs must be heavier. Easy in a 4 stroke, but not so in a 2 stroke.
What about a counters had to balance, or have I got the purpose of them wrong?

[husaberg]

I've played with the V idea and the inline. I had given up on the inline due to how much extra width it took but recently revisited the concept this weekend. A friend that played in the outboard world got me thinking about canting the cylinders 25 degrees or so. This allows the transfers to overlap. Look up the Mercury 1.5L Optimax series for a visual reference. When I tried this conceptually it took 40mm off the width and brought it to a point where the width was nearly the same as the V configuration I drew up. I was working with a 250cc single cylinder and believe I could make additional width improvements with a few tweaks. I was planning on a 750 and 900 triple using common cases.

While mechanical balance is better as you described I was thinking of opting for the 120 layout. This would allow for a 3-1 pipe which would yield strong pulse tuning between the cylinders. This could provide a very broad power curve and help with packaging. Of course, I would also design so that I could fit 3 pipes in just in case!

Paul

V3 is always going to be the best use of space
323594 323593
Another possible layout is the trapiziod ala Kawasaki
323591

Kawasaki also had a project in the shadows that was altogether revolutionary, built around a liquid-cooled two stroke “trapezoid” configuration. A trapezoid, shown at the head of this story, has one side shorter than its opposite. The Kawasaki trapzoid engine, with the front bank of cylinders narrower than the rear, is shown below left of the trapezoid diagram.

Pictures exist of this engine in mule chassis like both the H2 and the Z1 (the second and third photos above). But emission standards in the United States had begun to close the door on the big two-stroke. Kawasaki’s H2 was gone by 1977, and Suzuki’s Water Buffalo was finished by 1978. If Kawasaki entertained any serious plans to up the ante on its quick two-strokes, the success of the Z1 proved it unadvisable. The street-going trapezoid Kawasaki never saw the light of day.

Later, in 1978, Kawasaki brought forward a trapezoid two-stroke again, but only for racing purposes (pictured above right). The inboard/outboard relationship of its cylinders was the opposite from the street prototype (the racing engine, shown left, had its narrower bank of cylinders to the rear), but it was clearly a continuation of the concept. Designated the 602S and intended to capture the World Formula 750 title, it was tested by Gregg Hansford, but never entered in competition. Those familiar with the machine say the “trapezoidal” geared crank configuration allowed for quick adoption of a vast range of different cylinder firing order.

Unfortunately, having never been fully developed for street or racing use, the Kawasaki trapezoids remained trapped in time by the new rules of the EPA and the demise of Formula 750, the last season for which was 1979.


For space saving ideas with the cranks look at these.
The Yamaha 125/200 twin one, uses a griddle that doubles as the transfer walls
323595323669
JBB V twin
323592

[WilDun]

For space saving ideas with the cranks look at these.

Pretty sure that Jawa were the first to use that idea with their old 250 and 350 twins - well maybe just the 350 I dunno!

[husaberg]

For space saving ideas with the cranks look at these.
The Yamaha 125/200 twin one, uses a griddle that doubles as the transfer walls


Pretty sure that Jawa were the first to use that idea with their old 250 and 350 twins - well maybe just the 350 I dunno!

No idea, I'm not even sure the pic on the right is a RD on the second look.:yes:
but these ones are
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4991&attachmentid=318039
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4991&attachmentid=318032

[husaberg]

The foundry or metal casting stuff thats been going on the the ESE thread really inspired me to get on with having a go at this stuff.
If you can cast metal theres really not much you cant do. I dont think its going to be easy, most of it has been a bit of 2 steps forward 1 step back so far.


left over vinamold ready for next time

http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Arts_Crafts/PowerMold-Firm-Reusable-Moulding-Material/9999311398357
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Toys/ComposiMold-Reusable-Moulding-Material-1180mls-Craft-Moulds-US-Toys/9999296240922
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Toys/ComposiMold-Reusable-Moulding-Material-1180mls-Food-Moulds-ComposiMold/9999916587573

how does it compare price wise?

As per discussion off the same site Neil
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Arts_Crafts/ProtoCast-85R-Urethane-Resin-425-pounds/0639266764809
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Arts_Crafts/Model-Pro-Casting-Resin-2-Pints-950ml-Polyurethane-Resin/0661799648615
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Arts_Crafts/Model-Pro-Casting-Resin-Gallon-Kit-Polyurethane-System/0661799648608
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Arts_Crafts/EnvironMolds-Casting-Resin-19l/9999828024716
http://www.fishpond.co.nz/Arts_Crafts/Colour-Pro-Casting-Resin/9999033065005

[WilDun]

how does it compare price wise?
As per discussion off the same site Neil

I don't think I'll be doing much experimenting with any of that stuff! - they are saying "free delivery within NZ"! - I should damn well think so with costs like that!
Think I'd better wait till I've got something specific to make before trying it, those prices are definitely not for the faint hearted muddler (like myself). :laugh:

[husaberg]

I don't think I'll be doing much experimenting with any of that stuff! - they are saying "free delivery within NZ"! - I should damn well think so with costs like that!
Think I'd better wait till I've got something specific to make before trying it, those prices are definitely not for the faint hearted muddler (like myself). :laugh:

15% discount for gold card Will

Okay I made that up..:bleh:

[WilDun]

15% discount for gold card Will
Okay I made that up..:bleh:

Yes, well, sometimes just being the old pensioner works as well as a goldcard! - In some cases the goldcard (which I have only used a couple of times on the ferry) seems to annoy some people , but as I said somewhere before there are some good guys willing to give you a good discount ie. if you are there in person and so long as you don't expect it, or be arrogant. :laugh:
One guy offered me a brand new crucible (for free!) unfortunately it was too big for my purpose - I could have taken it and sold it on I guess, but I wouldn't do that.

[Flettner]

Yes, well, sometimes just being the old pensioner works as well as a goldcard! - In some cases the goldcard (which I have only used a couple of times on the ferry) seems to annoy some people , but as I said somewhere before there are some good guys willing to give you a good discount ie. if you are there in person and so long as you don't expect it, or be arrogant. :laugh:
One guy offered me a brand new crucible (for free!) unfortunately it was too big for my purpose - I could have taken it and sold it on I guess, but I wouldn't do that.

Will, yes that would be terrible to sell it on, but you could have given it away to say, someone in the Waikato reign :yes:

Those urethane product are expensive, even the rencast was dear enough but with the rencast you essentially got eight liters (with filler). Under those terms quite cost effective at $380 a kit. I miss Rencast:weep:

Had a look through Neals Foundry (Porirua) on the weekend, I see they use chemical set sand (not green sand or CO2 set) but they reuse / refurbish it. Set up for production, so my one off loose patterns were a pain for them, that's why my castings were $90 each, fair enough. I'll have to kick my out doors foundry into life again for this one off stuff, now that the weather will be getting better. Clutch case castings are away being heat treated at the moment.

[Ocean1]

Will, yes that would be terrible to sell it on, but you could have given it away to say, someone in the Waikato reign :yes:

Those urethane product are expensive, even the rencast was dear enough but with the rencast you essentially got eight liters (with filler). Under those terms quite cost effective at $380 a kit. I miss Rencast:weep:

Had a look through Neals Foundry (Porirua) on the weekend, I see they use chemical set sand (not green sand or CO2 set) but they reuse / refurbish it. Set up for production, so my one off loose patterns were a pain for them, that's why my castings were $90 each, fair enough. I'll have to kick my out doors foundry into life again for this one off stuff, now that the weather will be getting better. Clutch case castings are away being heat treated at the moment.

If you're still in town I found that araldite, you can have it. It's old but it should work OK.

[Flettner]

If you're still in town I found that araldite, you can have it. It's old but it should work OK.

Thank you, I'd love to give it a try. next time I'm down I'll give you a call.

[WilDun]

Will, yes that would be terrible to sell it on, but you could have given it away to say, someone in the Waikato reign :yes:

Yes that was a few years ago when I first thought of doing a foundry and I had actually considered giving it to someone, then I thought that all the hundreds of enthusiastic Kiwi foundrymen on this forum would have missed out and really that would be unfair! so I turned it down - I'm sure you'll understand.

Was there anything wrong with sodium silicate moulds as well as cores for home casting? seems like a cheap alternative to all these exotic expensive goos you can buy?
Of course I do realize that it can't be reused again but so long as you've got a decent length of driveway , it could be easily disposed of and still be a cheap alternative. ;)

What about the Kihikihi speedway track? - might be ok on that! :laugh:

[Flettner]

Clutch case machined and fitted. Heat treated CC601 looks nice in my opinion and leaves a high quality finish where machined.
Sacrificial lugs have been sacrificed.

[WilDun]

Clutch case machined and fitted. Heat treated CC601 looks nice in my opinion and leaves a high quality finish where machined.

Looks great - is that bottom end also to be used for other experimental engines? - probably won't be long till we hear it/them in action I guess.

[Flettner]

Looks great - is that bottom end also to be used for other experimental engines? - probably won't be long till we hear it/them in action I guess.

Yes several different cylinders. First will be the sleeve engine, followed by the 153cc twin port cylinder. Best is saved till last, the HCCI, epicycloid crank, FOS/Ryger test engine. Possibly another slider cylinder as well ( the one I started but never finished).
Best bit is all these variations will be able to be run in the YZ frame, assuming they run :rolleyes:

[Flettner]

Here is a sneak preview of the FOS/Ryger cylinder. Epoxicast is working now (using the right release agent, who would have thought), original shapes and the core boxes made from them.

[Flettner]

Original FOS core box and shape it was made from.

[Flettner]

Epoxicast shapes made in these core boxes are the foundation of the built up composite pattern. Water core next, first make the water core shape then cast a core box from it. Next weeks night time entertainment.:laugh:
This is the cylinder that will end up with the HCCI piston on top and/or a sparkplug as well, case reed inlet will be blocked off. I'm finishing off the epicycloid crank to run under this cylinder, so tight crank case pumping and oil sealed off in the bottom end.
Epoxicast is not a patch on Rencast but it will do for now, a bit of filling required with the spotty finish. The idea for this engine is to regulate it via exhaust throttle and fueling, with the inlet being open, the inlet being the three radial ports at 120 degrees in between the exhausts. These straight in to the cylinder transfers also feed the crank case via piston port at TDC. There will be three pulsed injectors in these three ports but only supplying fuel when the crank case is drawing air. Flow into the cylinder at BDC will be air only. I think this is a better idea than Zurg.

[Ocean1]

Epoxicast shapes made in these core boxes are the foundation of the built up composite pattern. Water core next, first make the water core shape then cast a core box from it. Next weeks night time entertainment.:laugh:
This is the cylinder that will end up with the HCCI piston on top and/or a sparkplug as well, case reed inlet will be blocked off. I'm finishing off the epicycloid crank to run under this cylinder, so tight crank case pumping and oil sealed off in the bottom end.
Epoxicast is not a patch on Rencast but it will do for now, a bit of filling required with the spotty finish. The idea for this engine is to regulate it via exhaust throttle and fueling, with the inlet being open, the inlet being the three radial ports at 120 degrees in between the exhausts. These straight in to the cylinder transfers also feed the crank case via piston port at TDC. There will be three pulsed injectors in these three ports but only supplying fuel when the crank case is drawing air. Flow into the cylinder at BDC will be air only. I think this is a better idea than Zurg.

Very interesting. Or it will be when I get my head around it. :laugh:

Is common practice for some resin moulding processes to stick the mixed resin in a vacuum chamber for a while, to get rid of them bubbles.

[Drew]

Very interesting. Or it will be when I get my head around it. :laugh:

Is common practice for some resin moulding processes to stick the mixed resin in a vacuum chamber for a while, to get rid of them bubbles.
Wouldn't any moisture boiling off create a new set of imperfections from the vacuum?

[Ocean1]

Wouldn't any moisture boiling off create a new set of imperfections from the vacuum?

Nah, it's not a sealed vessel, the vacuum pump is left on so any gas boiling out is just sucked away.

Is a common problem with most urethanes, they react with any moisture and gas up big time.

I used to have to do it with potable silicones too, the copied mould surface is much better.

[husaberg]

Nah, it's not a sealed vessel, the vacuum pump is left on so any gas boiling out is just sucked away.

Is a common problem with most urethanes, they react with any moisture and gas up big time.

I used to have to do it with potable silicones too, the copied mould surface is much better.

Proper mixing of the parts with a continuous pour and not folding in air helps.
There are plenty of videos on the net on how to make a vacuum pot out of common parts.

[Ocean1]

Proper mixing of the parts with a continuous pour and not folding in air helps.
There are plenty of videos on the net on how to make a vacuum pot out of common parts.

It does. Hard to justify spending a lot for occasional use though.

I may have been personally responsible for ramset NZ changing their policy on free spare static mixer nozzles with every cartridge sold. :whistle: And if I was doing any great quantity of such work of a paying nature I think I'd be investing in something like this: http://www.contaldi.eu/portfoliotype/indumix-ia/ But even then it's a bit over the top given the small quantities copy moulding small parts typically uses.

[husaberg]

It does. Hard to justify spending a lot for occasional use though.

I may have been personally responsible for ramset NZ changing their policy on free spare static mixer nozzles with every cartridge sold. :whistle: And if I was doing any great quantity of such work of a paying nature I think I'd be investing in something like this: http://www.contaldi.eu/portfoliotype/indumix-ia/ But even then it's a bit over the top given the small quantities copy moulding small parts typically uses.

Does Mrs Ocean have a pressure cooker?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sN0KT-tRsY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJlaO-ts5Eg
or even a Jar
you might even already have a vacuum brake bleeder anyway but most house have one of these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pfPOuzLPuw
or a bike pump
http://www.instructables.com/id/make-a-manual-vacuum-pump-for-under-%2420-by-convert/

[Ocean1]

Does Mrs Ocean have a pressure cooker?
or even a Jar
you mike even already have a vacuum brake bleeder anyway but most house have one of these.
or a bike pump

All good. :laugh:

But one of the advantages of building stuff for a living is the "spare parts" department that results. And if I need to suck bubbles from resin I think I have one of these somewhere: https://www.piab.com/products/vacuum-pumps/standard/mll400/

But given what happened to the last set up I'd probably want a condenser of some sort between the resin and the pump.

[husaberg]

All good. :laugh:

But one of the advantages of building stuff for a living is the "spare parts" department that results. And if I need to suck bubbles from resin I think I have one of these somewhere: https://www.piab.com/products/vacuum-pumps/standard/mll400/

But given what happened to the last set up I'd probably want a condenser of some sort between the resin and the pump.

I'd suggest the same for use of the Mrs's pressure cooker.
As for a pump think rural:innocent:
I see they use Kevlar vanes now.
http://hambydairysupply.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17813
324017

[WilDun]

As for a pump think rural:innocent:
I see they use Kevlar vanes now.

Husa, - The good old milking machine pump! - Is that a giant pine cone in the background or a monster truck wheel? ;)

Flettner,
When you say that there is only air going in at BDC I'm assuming that the fuel injection only takes place well into the upstroke, to prevent too much mixture disappearing out the exhaust?
Will that give it enough time to produce a well and truly hot homogenised mixture?(assuming that these are requirements for HCCI).

Have you got around the short rod thing? (Ryger shortcoming) - If you are using the new straight line approach with your geared crank arrangement, did you find a suitable seal for the piston rod?

[WilDun]

....... the epicycloid crank to run under this cylinder, so tight crank case pumping and oil sealed off in the bottom end.
The idea for this engine is to regulate it via exhaust throttle and fueling, with the inlet being open, the inlet being the three radial ports at 120 degrees in between the exhausts. These straight in to the cylinder transfers also feed the crank case via piston port at TDC. There will be three pulsed injectors in these three ports but only supplying fuel when the crank case is drawing air. Flow into the cylinder at BDC will be air only.

Not really sure what you mean by "crank case pumping" and "cylinder transfers" - forgive me if I'm a little slow, but as I understood it, the crankcase is completely sealed off from the cylinder :scratch:
I never did see properly how the Ryger stuff actually worked, I had a lot of other serious crap going on the earlier part of the year, so there is a bit of a gap there!

[Flettner]

Not really sure what you mean by "crank case pumping" and "cylinder transfers" - forgive me if I'm a little slow, but as I understood it, the crankcase is completely sealed off from the cylinder :scratch:
I never did see properly how the Ryger stuff actually worked, I had a lot of other serious crap going on the earlier part of the year, so there is a bit of a gap there!
Sorry, by high pressure crank case I do mean under piston. Crank case proper is sealed off and oil feed. I'm not sure about the bushing guide bearing, with the rod being hard anodized 7075. Do I make the bushing hardened and ground steel or carbon? This bushing will be oil feed.

[WilDun]

Sorry, by high pressure crank case I do mean under piston. Crank case proper is sealed off and oil feed. I'm not sure about the bushing guide bearing, with the rod being hard anodized 7075. Do I make the bushing hardened and ground steel or carbon? This bushing will be oil feed.

Yes I figured that's what you were probably describing, - I'm not much of an expert of course, but carbon seems good to me as there will be no thrust forces (side loads) on it and it's self lubricating qualities will prevent seizure, which would most certainly happen with hardened steel, ie. if the clearance was to change!

[Flettner]

With this HCCI the piston can now be ceramic, a heated piston might be a good thing (and head), how do you work with ceramic? This ceramic in my hip is some sort of ceramic matrix being a little bit flexible, so I'm told and light weight.

[Grumph]

Sorry, by high pressure crank case I do mean under piston. Crank case proper is sealed off and oil feed. I'm not sure about the bushing guide bearing, with the rod being hard anodized 7075. Do I make the bushing hardened and ground steel or carbon? This bushing will be oil feed.


With this HCCI the piston can now be ceramic, a heated piston might be a good thing (and head), how do you work with ceramic? This ceramic in my hip is some sort of ceramic matrix being a little bit flexible, so I'm told and light weight.

According to some reports i remember, the bush material may have been one of the Ryger problems...Is it to be a split bush to assemble around a piston/rod stem ? Personally I'm a traditionalist, I'd look at cast iron, nicely honed. Needs very little lube. Takes heat well.

Why ceramic ? If it is to have an extension, how strong will it be ? How much of a blending radius would it need ? Weight Vs an alloy one....

[ken seeber]

Yeah, I know it’s been a while. Been a tad distracted with other stuff and also getting on top of a myriad of little tech issues. Excuses done with, it’s getting close. So, rather than happy snaps, did a movie. Produced, directed, scripted, acted & edited by yours truly.
Yeah, I know, again; “Don’t give up your day job”. However, with Fletto “champing at the bit” (sorry Husa, not Pharlap this time :niceone:), I thought it time to get a move on. So, here you go:
https://youtu.be/Hodd8oyiawk
All going well, should be able to get the thing running next week. No dyno load stuff, just free running and to see if it makes some noise & smoke = good old pollution.
Watch this space.

Also on this vacuum degassing stuff, we just got the compressor out of a dumped fridge. They are great vacuum pumps. Squirt a bit of oil into the intake every now and then. In our case, we used it to degas a small crucible with molten metal. We sat the crucible in a firebrick which was sitting on a rubber mat. Then we used a cut-off fire extinguisher body that sat over it all and sealed on the rubber mat. We also used it to degas some polyurethane mix prior to pouring. Next time, I'll fit a small window so we can see the rate of gas removal.

[gamma500]

Looking great Ken!

Will be interesting to see it running, you guys are so ingenious.

[WilDun]

Yeah, I know it’s been a while. Been a tad distracted with other stuff and also getting on top of a myriad of little tech issues.........Watch this space.

Ken,
Great movie! - which one is you?
Look forward to hearing and seeing your machine in action!

Flettner
How about a carbon fibre cord used as loose gland packing? - just semi joking!

[WilDun]

With this HCCI the piston can now be ceramic, a heated piston might be a good thing (and head), how do you work with ceramic? This ceramic in my hip is some sort of ceramic matrix being a little bit flexible, so I'm told and light weight.

We used to have a ceramic dinner set. made in USA, called "Corelle" from memory and I was very impressed with them, they were very thin and lightweight but you could drop them and they would bounce where a normal plate would shatter.
I believe that they are still on the market today but obviously they are slightly flexible and springy and it might be an idea to find out just how they are made - they tried to make them in England as well but they obviously weren't told exactly how it was done, so they were dropped (not literally of course :laugh:).

Update :- I woke up this morning and remembered that the name of the company was "CORNINGWARE",

[lohring]

Zirconium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yttria-stabilized_zirconia has been used in dental crowns and bridges for a while. That is actually a high stress application due to the very small sizes. The advantage over previous porcelains and ceramics is that it behaves more like metals and is crack limiting. I have never had a zirconium crown or bridge chip or break, unlike previous porcelains. It has been used in jet engines and knife blades as well.

Lohring Miller

[lohring]

More details are available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4026739/ Filter out failures in the relatively weak porcelain that's applied to the zirconia framework for appearance. The base zirconia framework is very durable. The dental crowns are fabricated by cad/cam machining in the sintered state. This compensates for shrinkage when the zirconia is fired. After that, even machining with diamond burs is difficult. The particular "alloy" seems to be important. Still, I see similar zirconia ceramics replacing metals in a lot of applications in the future.

Lohring Miller

[Frits Overmars]

More details are available at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4026739/ Filter out failures in the relatively weak porcelain that's applied to the zirconia framework for appearance. The base zirconia framework is very durable. The dental crowns are fabricated by cad/cam machining in the sintered state. This compensates for shrinkage when the zirconia is fired. After that, even machining with diamond burs is difficult.Ceramics cover a very extensive field. They're not all white, they're not all brittle, and what may surprise you the most: they're not all bad heat conductors.
I used to play with the idea of baking my own cylinder from a type of ceramic that is an even better heat conductor than aluminium. Moreover, it would be lighter, have a far lower coefficient of expansion, be much more dimensionally stable and hard enough so that it wouldn't need any form of bore coating.
The problem that eventually stopped me from trying was that I could not think of a way of tapping any screw threads after baking. For a moment I even thought about baking the studs in, but since such a cylinder would shrink about 30% in the oven, I thought better of it.

[WilDun]

I used to play with the idea of baking my own cylinder from a type of ceramic that is an even better heat conductor than aluminium.

You could probably have baked in studs instead (if they could have withstood the temperatures of course!) - but then they if they ended up a little brittle, tempering them would have been a nightmare :facepalm:
I remember that some companies were experimenting with 'silicon nitride' ( which I read was silicon pressed into shape and nitrided) for pistons and liners - probably this process would have kept temperatures much lower.
That was somewhere back around eighties or nineties - dunno what happened there, it all seemed very promising at the time (and still is it seems) - guess that's what you have in your hip Neil?

http://accuratus.com/silinit.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUNsRRHVPo

[Flettner]

Thankyou Lohring Miller, I have no idea about ceramic's (apart from tea break) how they are made? I'm assuming you can't work it like metal on a lathe, I guess it get's sintered in a die. Anyway for now I'll just cast an aluminium piston.

[Frits Overmars]

Thankyou Lohring Miller, I have no idea about ceramic's (apart from tea break) how they are made? I'm assuming you can't work it like metal on a lathe, I guess it get's sintered in a die. Anyway for now I'll just cast an aluminium piston.I don't know much about ceramics either but I understand they are moulded and in their 'green' (= before baking) form you can modify them at will.
Cast aluminium pistons can be every bit as good, if not better than forged pistons. But I don't expect they will be gravity-cast. And centrifugal casting may be a bridge too far. But steel pistons are making a revival, and for HCCI their lower heat conductivity may even be an advantage. Below are some pics of a modern steel foul-stroke racing piston. And if you are going to use your hypocycloid piston rod, things will become much simpler and you might end up with a giant steel nail.
324042324043324044

[Grumph]

Impressive saving on weight in the pin bosses due presumably to the higher tensile strength of the steel. More gain with the shorter pin too.
I'd have thought that the steel Vs alloy thing favours steel in the larger bore sizes where you can do something spectacular like that one - but alloy where it's a small bore and to an extent, small end width governs what you can do.
Must be a crossover point I'd have thought.

Neil - There's a guy down here who was squeeze casting his own pistons some time back with very good results. I could probably find him again if you want to talk to him.

[Flettner]

Impressive saving on weight in the pin bosses due presumably to the higher tensile strength of the steel. More gain with the shorter pin too.
I'd have thought that the steel Vs alloy thing favours steel in the larger bore sizes where you can do something spectacular like that one - but alloy where it's a small bore and to an extent, small end width governs what you can do.
Must be a crossover point I'd have thought.

Neil - There's a guy down here who was squeeze casting his own pistons some time back with very good results. I could probably find him again if you want to talk to him.

Hey, you know me, I'll talk to anyone.

[Grumph]

Hey, you know me, I'll talk to anyone.

I'll see if I can track him down. I like Frits large nail comparison, LOL.

[Flettner]

Just screw on a piston. No gudgin pin, small end bearings or gudgin pin bosses, just a few webs under the piston and it's short because the exhaust ports don't go to the bottom of the cylinder. All things being equal this piston should not even touch the bore, if the epicycloid crank is set up correctly but I will get the bore coated anyway if for no other reason than to offer a good wear surface for the ring.

[Frits Overmars]

Just screw on a piston.Yep. But there's one problem you'll need to solve: the ring gap can't be just anywhere, not if you wish to keep the piston ring in one piece.
How can you make sure that the piston doesn't unscrew itself, and that after unscrewing the piston and screwing it back on, the ring gap will still be in the same place?

I haven't found a solution yet, but I did think of a way to circumvent the problem: Using a split guidance for the epicycloid con rod will allow you to make the piston and con rod in one piece.

[ken seeber]

Getting close. Ignition on. Plug lead cap done. Carb on.
Was thinking of an additional flywheel, remembering that the CR will be high when the cylinder is low, corresponding to idle & low load/speed conditions. Fletto independently suggest this today, so decision made. So, when to the off-cut bins and there it was, just waiting. Bit of a simple facing off and boring op and almost done. Occasionally there IS some satisfaction in being a bit of a hoarder. :sunny:

324053

[husaberg]

Yep. But there's one problem you'll need to solve: the ring gap can't be just anywhere, not if you wish to keep the piston ring in one piece.
How can you make sure that the piston doesn't unscrew itself, and that after unscrewing the piston and screwing it back on, the ring gap will still be in the same place?

I haven't found a solution yet, but I did think of a way to circumvent the problem: Using a split guidance for the epicycloid con rod will allow you to make the piston and con rod in one piece.

KISS, Jam nut, it works for rose joints and tie rods.
324054

[ken seeber]

But steel pistons are making a revival, and for HCCI their lower heat conductivity may even be an advantage. Below are some pics of a modern steel foul-stroke racing piston. ]

These are impressive. Look like investment castings made from a 3D printed sacrificial cores, judging by the witness of the series of lines. Agree, it might be the go for HCCI, but for the fact that it needs a skirt for port sealing. Perhaps one could do a composite design with a very thin skirt (eg 1 mm wall extruded aluminium tube). Easy to say, but quite a few issues to be addressed.

[Frits Overmars]

These are impressive. Look like investment castings made from a 3D printed sacrificial cores, judging by the witness of the series of lines. Agree, it might be the go for HCCI, but for the fact that it needs a skirt for port sealing. Perhaps one could do a composite design with a very thin skirt (eg 1 mm wall extruded aluminium tube). Easy to say, but quite a few issues to be addressed.Fletto just reminded me of KISS, so I'd like to avoid a composite. But I did sketch a short closed-skirt piston for my FOS cylinder in a way that I could make it myself out of solid aluminium. Wall thicknesses are still very conservative, but that's all open to discussion.
324055

[ken seeber]

Nice one Frits.:niceone:

[WilDun]

Flettner, would backlash in the epicyloid gearing cause any problem with the rod if the clearance on the seal is tight?
Wasn't your Crecy' style piston/sleeve made of steel?

Looks like you are almost there Ken, looking good!

[Drew]

KISS, Jam nut, it works for rose joints and tie rods.
324054

Vibration and loading on rose joints and rod ends is substantially less than what a piston goes through. But in the name of simplicity, a pin with a circlip just like a gudgeon would work.

[Flettner]

Yep. But there's one problem you'll need to solve: the ring gap can't be just anywhere, not if you wish to keep the piston ring in one piece.
How can you make sure that the piston doesn't unscrew itself, and that after unscrewing the piston and screwing it back on, the ring gap will still be in the same place?

I haven't found a solution yet, but I did think of a way to circumvent the problem: Using a split guidance for the epicycloid con rod will allow you to make the piston and con rod in one piece.

Yes I have thought of that too. But I wanted the rod to be made of 7075 and the piston to be hypereutectic alloy. Might be that this is not necessary but this is how it's going to be for the start anyway.
My plan is simple, attach the piston, then machine the piston, ring groove and then fit the ring pin. Sooner or later there will be no ring on the piston, it will be stationary in the bore running against either nikasil or chrome piston skirt.
We got to start somewhere:yes:

[Flettner]

Flettner, would backlash in the epicyloid gearing cause any problem with the rod if the clearance on the seal is tight?
Wasn't your Crecy' style piston/sleeve made of steel?

Looks like you are almost there Ken, looking good!

Yes, that's one issue I'm only too aware of, although Mazda Rotary engines use a similar system with an internal/external gear set to control the movement of their rotor, they seem to last.

[Flettner]

Fletto just reminded me of KISS, so I'd like to avoid a composite. But I did sketch a short closed-skirt piston for my FOS cylinder in a way that I could make it myself out of solid aluminium. Wall thicknesses are still very conservative, but that's all open to discussion.
324055

Why solid? Wouldn't you want to cast one? What alloy would you machine it out of?

[Frits Overmars]

Why solid? Wouldn't you want to cast one? What alloy would you machine it out of?No, I don't want to cast one and then have everybody here commenting on my knees :D.
Besides, I fear that casting won't yield as dense a material. Also, I don't think that I could cast the thin walls that would be required for lightness, so I would have to machine it anyway. And finally, the shape I drew can be machined out of solid in less time than you would need to make a mould.
What alloy? That is not my field of expertise; I'd have to ask around.

[Flettner]

No, I don't want to cast one and then have everybody here commenting on my knees :D.
Besides, I fear that casting won't yield as dense a material. Also, I don't think that I could cast the thin walls that would be required for lightness, so I would have to machine it anyway. And finally, the shape I drew can be machined out of solid in less time than you would need to make a mould.
What alloy? That is not my field of expertise; I'd have to ask around.

Just that I always thought the best alloy for pistons was hypereutectic alloy, low expansion rate, and cast. You could machine one from a hypereutectic block I guess if it were available? But it would only be cast in the first place anyway. Second best would be an alloy that say wossner forge theirs from, I guess you can get that in solid bar form. Looking at my epicycloid crank system, the piston would be that thin anyway expansion would likely not be a problem. No big heavy pin bosses to expand. Ken might know someone that could cast a piston for you. Some pistons I made once, out of large truck piston bosses, I spark eroded the center out. Made and electrode from copper, worked well. That truck piston alloy was I think approx 24% silicon (hypereutectic). Neil lickfold will now about this.

[Grumph]

Best information I have is LM13 for castings (high silicon) and 2618 for forgings.
You could possibly sidestep a little by looking at Rapid Solidification alloys.

Bradley gives RSP Technology in the Netherlands as the experts - already doing a range of pistons.
Worth asking if they sell barstock.

www.rsp-technology.com

[Frits Overmars]

You could possibly sidestep a little by looking at Rapid Solidification alloys. Bradley gives RSP Technology in the Netherlands as the experts - already doing a range of pistons. Worth asking if they sell barstock. www.rsp-technology.com RSP is delivered as extruded barstock but it doesn't come cheap. We've used RSP with 30% silicon for our 6,5 cc model engine pistons since the year 2000.
RSP even modified the alloy for us, increasing the iron content a little in order to make it harder. Our small pistons are manufactured through electro-erosion.
324057 324058

[ken seeber]

PISTON ALLOYS:
LM13. Basically eutectic alloy, 10-12% Si, 200 MPa UTS (T6)
Meteor and other Italians. Hypereutectic G-AlSi18MgCuNi-P, 17-19%Si, ?? UTS
STRIKE Hypereutectic A390, 16-18% Si, 310 MPa UTS (T6)

[husaberg]

Vibration and loading on rose joints and rod ends is substantially less than what a piston goes through. But in the name of simplicity, a pin with a circlip just like a gudgeon would work.

Drew have a look at a few conrods on foul stroke multis
ps the nut was to go on the conrod.

[Grumph]

PISTON ALLOYS:
LM13. Basically eutectic alloy, 10-12% Si, 200 MPa UTS (T6)
Meteor and other Italians. Hypereutectic G-AlSi18MgCuNi-P, 17-19%Si, ?? UTS
STRIKE Hypereutectic A390, 16-18% Si, 310 MPa UTS (T6)

This graph is relevant. from The Racing Motorcycle Vol 2 with thanks. I suspect if RSP was cheaper, we'd see a lot more of it.

[husaberg]

Nearly all forged car or foul stroke motorbike pistons are either
High silicon is 4032
or
Low silicon is 2618.
The 2618 is stronger.

MTC use or at least used to use, a low silicon alloy that has incredibly small cold clearance I have no idea what it is.
Also interesting to see that the piston technology is heading back to ferrous metals.
You could say, they have turned full circle:msn-wink:

[ken seeber]

This RSP looks to be good stuff Grumph. What is interesting is pouring the small stream of liquid alloy onto the copper roller. Possibly some good safety practices required here. The guts of the process is the very quick solidification to maintain the Silicone in a fully dissolved state. What we do, which is what the industry standard practice is, is to use a phosphorous master alloy addition to the melt, this ensuing (refining) the Si remains in solution (much more so than without any refinement method), but clearly not anywhere near the RSP level.
Then it looks like it is extruded in what they call the “consolidation” step. This looks like a basic extrusion process, but to preserve the Si in solution, this would have to be done at a relatively cool temp. Well I think so.
Anyways, the nett result is that you have a really expensive, strong material, and one that could only be machined or maybe coldish forged, or, as Frits does, using the EDM process.
Anyone got any large diameter copper rings and an old extrusion press kicking around????????????

[Flettner]

My attempt at squeeze cast / forging a piston. Story has already been told, needless to say there was a lot of molten aluminium spread around the workshop.

[WilDun]

My attempt at squeeze cast / forging a piston. Story has already been told, needless to say there was a lot of molten aluminium spread around the workshop.

Gawd, is there anything you haven't tried? :laugh:

So did you use a slow squeezing process to follow the shrinkage, or an almighty hammer blow, as in forging?

[Flettner]

Same Frits, but my 24% alloy was somewhat cheaper as you can see.
Will, it started with an idea to forge my own pistons (to get around the bucket racing piston rule) I made this tall structure in my shed with a slide way rail going up into the ceiling. Onto that slide I attached a LARGE piece of plastic extruder machine as the weight, cool I thought. Made the die as you can see, on my drill mill and Boxford lathe, put some lead in the die and pulled the trigger (a piece of string tied to a latch holding the weight back in the roof) the outcome was abysmal with the die only going into the lead about 20mm even after more shots. Clearly I had underestimated the force required to forge a piston. thinking back if I'd heated the lead there would have been a different outcome but you learn as you go. So I thought the aluminium is going to need to be just off molten so I melted a pot of LM13, tipped it into the die and waited until the skin looked set. I went to pull the string but thought perhaps I should stand behind the door, you know, just in case. Well all hell broke loose as there was molten aluminium everywhere with small fires starting in places. Good idea to stand behind the 'health and safety' door, what a mess as the alloy was still molten inside the die under the solidified skin. As I was cleaning up my shed some years later, when we moved house, I was still finding bits of solidified aluminium from that 'experiment'. Wife put a stop to it! (thankfully).

[Grumph]

I can think of less complcated ways to hurt yourself...

Pretty sure i mentioned the guy down here squeeze casting much earlier in the thread - way back.

When he described it to me, it was pretty much a steel piston pump linked to a long hand lever - the lot acting on the feeder channel leading to a male/female metal die. Let it fill and while semi solid, lean on the handle - carefully. Apparently, as you found, the trick is to judge the right moment to apply pressure...
I believe he had a fairly high remelt rate.

[WilDun]

Well all hell broke loose as there was molten aluminium everywhere with small fires starting in places. As I was cleaning up my shed some years later, when we moved house, I was still finding bits of solidified aluminium from that 'experiment'.

That was a good way to learn a lesson! - I did the same more or less last year but with wax (think I mentioned it) I poked the crust hard with a stick and the molten pool shot up and covered me with hot wax - that was bad enough, thank God it wasn't aluminium as in your case! :eek5: - but we live and learn (usually) - pioneers have all tended to be brave.
Is there any reason why we can't just slowly squeeze it with some sort of arrangement (workshop press maybe) which uses a hydraulic jack?

I remember being told that melting (remelting) high silicon aluminium will often tend to burn off the silicon - anyone know anything about that?

[Michael Moore]

Instead of squeeze casting what about hot isostatic pressing to "densify" the casting?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_isostatic_pressing


Hot isostatic pressing (hipping) can be used for upgrading castings, densifying presintered components, consolidating powders, and interfacial bonding. It involves the simultaneous application of a high pressure and elevated temperature in a specially constructed vessel. The pressure is applied with a gas (usually inert) and, so, is isostatic. Under these conditions of heat and pressure, internal pores or defects within a solid body collapse and diffusion bond. Encapsulated powder and sintered components alike are densified to give improved mechanical properties and a reduction in the scatter band of properties.

Fundamental aspects of hot isostatic pressing: An overview
H. V. Atkinson, S. Davies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsnzgsEXT_A

cheers,
Michael

[Grumph]

Instead of squeeze casting what about hot isostatic pressing to "densify" the casting?

cheers,
Michael

God, Michael, to a Kiwi, that's like a red rag to a bull - I can see an even bigger explosion coming....

[Ocean1]

God, Michael, to a Kiwi, that's like a red rag to a bull - I can see an even bigger explosion coming....

The Russians made tank hulls by explosive forming big panels. Less welding.

Not a new process, but the size of the bang required to draw plate that heavy into shapes that deep is hard to imagine.

[Kickaha]

The Russians made tank hulls by explosive forming big panels. Less welding.

Not a new process, but the size of the bang required to draw plate that heavy into shapes that deep is hard to imagine.
I've seen a yacht hull done like that, a big concrete mold full of water, massive big steel plate and some explosives

Fuck knows what it was about but it was on a doco on tv

[Frits Overmars]

Instead of squeeze casting what about hot isostatic pressing to "densify" the casting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_isostatic_pressing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsnzgsEXT_AAll Aprilia race cylinders were hipped. It stopped the bridges between the main and auxiliary exhaust ports from cracking.

[Flettner]

Sleeve engine, need to make the balance shaft / water pump drive and the gears to drive them. Frightningly close to running attached to the rear wheel this time. Still need to do the chambers but that's not a problem:wings:
And the air box.

[F5 Dave]

Que the stand up wheelies in shorts in between the sheep video

[ken seeber]

BREAKING NEWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nope, no breaking news cos nothing broke. But the sliding cylinder engine did run today, albeit with a few carby isues. Full length feature film coming to your local cinemas soon.
:done:

[Frits Overmars]

:2thumbsup

[breezy]

BREAKING NEWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nope, no breaking news cos nothing broke. But the sliding cylinder engine did run today, albeit with a few carby isues. Full length feature film coming to your local cinemas soon.
:done:

cant wait Ken.. excellent:sunny:

[FastFred]

Go Ken ............. :woohoo:

[Flettner]

BREAKING NEWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nope, no breaking news cos nothing broke. But the sliding cylinder engine did run today, albeit with a few carby isues. Full length feature film coming to your local cinemas soon.
:done:
I got audio on the phone yesterday and can confirm the run. Smelt nice too :cool:

[TZ350]

... the sliding cylinder engine did run today. Full length feature film coming to your local cinemas soon.
:done:

Great news ....

[Frits Overmars]

I got audio on the phoneSo did Alexander Graham Bell :nya:

Couldn't resist, sorry Neil. Next time it's your turn to pull my leg.

[WilDun]

BREAKING NEWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nope, no breaking news cos nothing broke.

I was a bit late getting the news, but well done Ken - hope it is a success.

[adegnes]

Yes! Yes! Congrats, can't wait for that video!

[ken seeber]

THE BLOCKBUSTER MOVIE HAS JUST BEEN RELEASED FOR PUBLIC VIEWING !!!!!!!!!!!!

Blockbuster, no, not really, but a bit of a vid of the sliding cylinder story. Not too sure what next, but there are a couple of options. A steady state dyno is definitely preferable.

https://youtu.be/2p0dyPu7Gcs

[Flettner]

Ok, tool up for production. Yes exhausts and load, don't make me come over there. How cool is that, thankyou for posting the video.

[Bert]

THE BLOCKBUSTER MOVIE HAS JUST BEEN RELEASED FOR PUBLIC VIEWING !!!!!!!!!!!!

Blockbuster, no, not really, but a bit of a vid of the sliding cylinder story. Not too sure what next, but there are a couple of options. A steady state dyno is definitely preferable.

https://youtu.be/2p0dyPu7Gcs


Ok, tool up for production. Yes exhausts and load, don't make me come over there. How cool is that, thankyou for posting the video.

Nice work gentlemen!!!

Can't wait to hear it in full flight with pipes.

[breezy]

very good ken:niceone::first:

[Yow Ling]

Good stuff Ken, not very often something new comes along, and 71 hp as well !

[WilDun]

Well done Ken!! Great to see it working - lots of development still to do I'm sure but if all you guys in the forum thread keep working together (as you have been doing), I'm sure it will be very successful - keep going! :niceone:
Yow Ling may even see his 71 HP on the dyno readout!

[breezy]

So Ken, any initial thoughts as to the engines set up? i know its early days but, you got to ask:sherlock: does it two stroke at low rpm?

[ken seeber]

So Ken, any initial thoughts as to the engines set up? i know its early days but, you got to ask:sherlock: does it two stroke at low rpm?
Breezy, the grand plan it to get it onto a dyno (think I have a waterbrake kart engine type sussed off a mate). Then with some, 3 in fact, FOS empirical pipes, the thing can be assessed more fully. As to whether it 2 strokes at low load/speed, and this is a good question, I just can't say right now. It was just so noisy and without any exhaust as it was, it just too hard to comment. Got my fingers crossed though.

[Flettner]

O well, start again, the Anodizer dissolved my alloy rod for the epicycloid crank. :(

[andrew a]

O well, start again, the Anodizer dissolved my alloy rod for the epicycloid crank. :(

O Poo......

[F5 Dave]

Ewe guys are incredible.

[husaberg]

Been fleeced again

[WilDun]

O well, start again, the Anodizer dissolved my alloy rod for the epicycloid crank. :(

Tubular steel instead? How are you going to attach the piston head?

As for the sheep jokes - think I missed something, somewhere, (maybe I'm just thick) :confused:

[Frits Overmars]

As for the sheep jokes - think I missed something, somewhere, (maybe I'm just thick)Same here, Will. Or maybe it has something to do with this? http://smilingspot.com/a-cowboy-met-an-indian-in-the-black-hills-this-indian-was-amazed-when-he-saw-what-the-cowboy-can-do/

[tjbw]

Same here, Will. Or maybe it has something to do with this? http://smilingspot.com/a-cowboy-met-an-indian-in-the-black-hills-this-indian-was-amazed-when-he-saw-what-the-cowboy-can-do/

Hahaha, good one Frits :)

[WilDun]

Same here, Will. Or maybe it has something to do with this? http://smilingspot.com/a-cowboy-met-an-indian-in-the-black-hills-this-indian-was-amazed-when-he-saw-what-the-cowboy-can-do/

Aha! - now the truth comes out - there are others in the world? - Kiwis after all have had to bear the brunt of that one for a very long time! :msn-wink:

[F5 Dave]

Gee, I was only trying to put it into an Aussie accent.

Awww ewe guys are increddibile.

No top work Ken, awesome stuff.

[WilDun]

Gee, I was only trying to put it into an Aussie accent.

Awww ewe guys are increddibile.

No top work Ken, awesome stuff.

Awww - an Aussie accent - in print? - now that's a challenge you've set yourself Dave!

Very impressed with your engine too Ken, BTW. how strong are the forces at play on that cylinder sliding arrangement? - I saw you ( or your son maybe) moving it manually and it seemed to stay quite well at any position you moved it to.

[Frits Overmars]

http://smilingspot.com/a-cowboy-met-an-indian-in-the-black-hills-this-indian-was-amazed-when-he-saw-what-the-cowboy-can-do/
Aha! - now the truth comes out - there are others in the world? - Kiwis after all have had to bear the brunt of that one for a very long time! :msn-wink:Let me comfort you Kiwi guys, you were by no means the first. It was the Moroccans who were the first to use sheep guts as condoms.
It wasn't until several centuries later that the Dutch perfected this idea by first taking the gut out of the sheep.

[ief]

Awesome, respect gents!

[breezy]

Let me comfort you Kiwi guys, you were by no means the first. It was the Moroccans who were the first to use sheep guts as condoms.
It wasn't until several centuries later that the Dutch perfected this idea by first taking the gut out of the sheep.

its common knowledge in England that the welsh still keep the old tradition started by the Moroccans prior to the Dutch perfecting it by removal of the gut.. only with the wearing of wellington boots , for restraining the rear legs...... allegedly :msn-wink:

[WilDun]

its common knowledge in England that the welsh still keep the old tradition started by the Moroccans prior to the Dutch perfecting it by removal of the gut.. only with the wearing of wellington boots , for restraining the rear legs...... allegedly :msn-wink:


:killingme - I have been laughing of course, but........... we are veering away from foundries and buckets etc. and that's no laughing matter. We have to help (by at least showing an interest) in these clever guys and their ideas on this forum to save the two stroke from extinction!
Oh, and Frits, you could possibly become an honorary Kiwi with all your input (on engines that is!) ;)
We have now evolved, moved away from sheep and we now ride bikes for pleasure instead, so we need to keep looking ahead for ways and means of upgrading the Two Smoke to the two Stroke to stop it being banned altogether! :eek5:

[Frits Overmars]

:killingme - I have been laughing of course.... Oh, and Frits, you could possibly become an honorary Kiwi with all your input (on engines that is!) That would be nice. I've never been to New Zealand yet, but several of my father's brothers and sisters emigrated to NZ in the fifties, so now I have more relatives in NZ than in Holland. Must be the fertile soil. Or maybe a lack of sheep guts.
OK, back to topic.

[Flettner]

Some action on the sleeve engine, gearbox in, crank in, clutch in, water pump finished and cases all sealed up
Still lots of detailed work but I'm at the sharp end now l think. Oops, not very sharp putting the photos upside down. These must be for the Northern hemisphere viewers. Thats better, hold the phone up the right way. Air box is going to be difficult.

[tjbw]

Brilliant job flettner!

Looking forward to the video :)

[WilDun]

Some action on the sleeve engine, gearbox in, crank in, clutch in, water pump finished and cases all sealed up. Air box is going to be difficult.

A long hard journey! but it must make you feel good to have achieved what you set out to do, (ie design and build an experimental engine from scratch) - totally new ground here, at least so far as bikes are concerned and without really knowing how it's going to all pan out.
So well done Neil, - also we must not forget all the other action guys in the experimental department of course! :niceone:

[ken seeber]

Well, got a dyno, but it turns out to be a bit of a relic that did, in fact, fall off the back of a truck & looks like it. Have to think about this one.

324227

In between times, been designing the exhaust(s). These and the various adapters will take a little time.

Happy Father’s Day to the Ozzies and Kiwis. For the latter group, don’t forget the benefits of your lush green pastures that run up to the edges of steep cliffs.
Does it go like this? :chase: :love: :sweatdrop: :niceone: :drinkup:

[Flettner]

A long hard journey! but it must make you feel good to have achieved what you set out to do, (ie design and build an experimental engine from scratch) - totally new ground here, at least so far as bikes are concerned and without really knowing how it's going to all pan out.
So well done Neil, - also we must not forget all the other action guys in the experimental department of course! :niceone:

I guess Wil I probably enjoy the building as much as the finished product, perhaps more so sometimes.

[F5 Dave]

yeah yeah the video. this is way cool. hmm wonder how the pipes are optomised. . .

[Flettner]

Ken, that's a nice little dyno, how much power will it soak up?

[ken seeber]

Ken, that's a nice little dyno, how much power will it soak up?
None. The rotor or shaft or both is seized within the housing !! Supposedly 50 hp. If it isn't a goer, then I reckon I'll just make one with a car auto torque converter. Get one for nothing from a wrecker.
BTW, your sleeve engine looks trick. As to the exhaust, I'm using Frit's empirical exhaust design concept. Fairly basic calcs only required
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[Frits Overmars]

The rotor or shaft or both is seized within the housing !! Supposedly 50 hp. If it isn't a goer, then I reckon I'll just make one with a car auto torque converter. Get one for nothing from a wrecker.
BTW, your sleeve engine looks trick. As to the exhaust, I'm using Frit's empirical exhaust design concept. Fairly basic calcs only required
You could ask your friendly local wrecker if he hasn't got a hill retarder lying around; much better than a torque converter.
The other day I did some work on that exhaust concept of mine and changed a few percentages. Here is the latest version.
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Ken, I kept thinking about your latest mail. You're aiming for an rpm of maximum power that is quite low even for the original kart engine that you are using as a basis.
I can understand that you want to be careful, but those six upward-angled transfers may create a central scavenging column that is moving too fast for that rpm,
so the initial result may not give a good indication of the engine's true potential.

[peewee]

Some action on the sleeve engine, gearbox in, crank in, clutch in, water pump finished and cases all sealed up
Still lots of detailed work but I'm at the sharp end now l think. Oops, not very sharp putting the photos upside down. These must be for the Northern hemisphere viewers. Thats better, hold the phone up the right way. Air box is going to be difficult.

that's cool man. not many people could accomplish something like that :Punk:. I see theres no removable cover for the clutch plates. do they not need changing very often ?

[gamma500]

wow you guys are skilled and smart!

It will be really interesting to see how these engines will run.

Keep up the good work!

[Flettner]

PeeWee, I've got a Rekluse (spelling?) clutch for this sleeve engine bottom end only because I use one in my YZ 250 T and love it, along with a handlebar rear brake (like a mountain bike). I've had the clutch in my 250 for more than two years and have not had to touch it, not even adjust it. So I shouldn't need to go near it in the amount of running this engine will do:lol:
I will consider this engine a success if I can ride the bike round my back yard. Remember this cylinder is only the first to be tested on this same bottom end, when I say the same I do have two more bottom ends under the bench.
One of the other cylinders I've got to test will definitely be long term trail rideable.

[Frits Overmars]

I've got a Rekluse (spelling?) clutch for this sleeve engine bottom end.Perfect, both the spelling and the functioning of that clutch. I love it.

[husaberg]

This fellas worth a watch even with is dubious aksunk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqs_6J4Hu-8

[Michael Moore]

My first big CNC project came off the mill yesterday afternoon. This is the lower-surface pattern for the Webco Yamaha CT-1 175cc two-stroke cylinder head I plan to replicate.

I'm quite pleased with the surface finish. There are a couple of spots (like in that central V area) where a cutter went a couple thousandths too deep, and some of the fin/central boss areas have transitions that look the other way (a bit high).

I'll burnish it to get the little flakes of wax off, but I think that is about all I will do. There are some sharp edges that will need to be lightly rounded.

The long 2 degree taper ball-end EM was singing a bit. I tried turning the feed over-ride down but that didn't make any difference, so it may need a smaller depth of cut. There's signs of chatter on the sides of the fins, but I think most if not all minor flaws will disappear against the sand when the mold is made.

Less than 2 hours of machining seems much better than sanding/coating/repeat on wood. Of course, I've got a lot of time in the model and the CAM, but much of that was spent figuring out how to do things. I redid the model several days earlier because I found some small issues where surfaces looked good but were a thou or two off of matching.

Next up is to validate out the model for the upper side and start the CAM with the feeds/speeds/DOC/WOC proven on this part. Maybe I'll have the other half of the pattern later this week.

Software is Rhino v5 with RhinoCAM (Visual Mill) 2016, running on my Tree 425 (a rebadged TOS FV30).

I'll pull a silicone rubber mold from the wax and use it to cast a urethane foundry tool. The wax will eventually be melted and recycled for reuse.

cheers,
Michael

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0566.jpg

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0568.jpg

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoHeadUndersideRhinoScreenCap.jpg

[Flettner]

Side case came off again as the gear change mechanism was touching the case, just. See the balance shaft drive (and water pump)

[Flettner]

Exhaust stubs with high temp oring grooves machined in, crappy pictures, not sure why?

[Flettner]

My first big CNC project came off the mill yesterday afternoon.

Forgive me for asking but why aren't you machining those patterns out of say plastic then just using them direct into the sand? Probably you already explained to us but clearly I wasn't:( listening.
They certainly look good enough to work as they are.

[Michael Moore]

Neil, many of the foundry/tooling boards are said to be pretty abrasive on cutters, where the machinable wax is self-lubricating and easy on the cutting edges, while still giving a very good finish with dimensional stability. I don't want to wear out my small assortment of HSS tapered 3FL ball-end cutters any faster than I can avoid doing.

Plus it can be melted and recast into new blocks multiple times and additional wax in whatever size I need (or a less-expensive bag of bulk chips to make my own blocks) are just a few days away via a web order. So if I'd had a serious "oops" moment (nearly happened) I could have melted the wax down and started fresh with what I had on hand instead of potentially damaging some expensive Renshape and having to order more of it.

I also had some wax falling, as with the controls on a well-designed motorbike, readily to hand (and foot). :)

What plastic have you found is both easy to machine, holds up against sand abrasion, and is relatively inexpensive (keeping in mind that I can recover/reuse much of the wax swarf, where I presume other plastics would be scrap)?

cheers,
Michael

[Flettner]

Acetal is a common plastic we use in our CNC, machines well, is stable, not abrasive but it does cost. Supplied in black, white and blue, not all in the same block;)

[Michael Moore]

I've used some acetal and it is nice, but I think it is more expensive than some metals (and the wax) if purchased new. At least the wax is reclaimable, I've got a container being filled with the clean swarf. I'll probably go with wood for more open-shape patterns that will be easy to hand-finish.

cheers,
Michael

[WilDun]

I've used Acetal a lot over the years - It is great stuff for turning, milling etc. but it pays to clean up the swarf well when you are finished with it because hot metal chips falling on it are a hazard and the fumes produced will overwhelm you before you know it - as I found out for myself one one occasion! :shit:

[Flettner]

Don't ever ask me to put your engine together! I'm looking at the photos of the sleeve engine, happily, then notice something. There seems to be a capscrew missing behind the clutch so this morning I pulled the clutch case off again and sure enough there was a hole where the capscrew should have been :confused: how did I miss that?
Now down to fueling, exhaust, ignition and starter. And put some oil in it I guess.

[Flettner]

Once again I know this is not the forum to be talking about trail riding, BUT.
The F9 had another outing today at the Epic Events Taupo ride, still no DNF's, runs better than ever, way too much engine for this 1973 frame / setup. I haven't touched the EFI in ???? don't know when the computer was last plugged in?
It's nice to able to finally just haul it out, fuel it up (clean the air filters) and ride it. It is the most reliable F9 I have ever owned and by far the most powerful. Sorry just had to say it, must be the adrenaline still working.
I'd better ring up Kawasaki and tell them I've finally cracked the nut on the F9 350, they can now go ahead and put them back into production:2thumbsup

[WilDun]

Once again I know this is not the forum to be talking about trail riding, BUT.
The F9 had another outing today at the Epic Events Taupo ride, still no DNF's, runs better than ever, way too much engine for this 1973 frame / setup. I haven't touched the EFI in ???? don't know when the computer was last plugged in?

Why not? - I say if you've got it, then flaunt it!


I'd better ring up Kawasaki and tell them I've finally cracked the nut on the F9 350, they can now go ahead and put them back into production:2thumbsup
If it works good, then not before you take a leaf out of a certain person's book, re: patents!!

[Flettner]

[QUOTE=Flettner;1130999509]Once again I know this is not the forum to be talking about trail riding, BUT.
The F9 had another outing today at the Epic Events Taupo ride, still no DNF's, runs better than ever, way too much engine for this 1973 frame / setup. I haven't touched the EFI in ???? don't know when the computer was last plugged in? [/QUOTE

Why not? - I say if you've got it, then flaunt it!


If it works good, then not before you take a leaf out of a certain person's book, re: patents!!

I guess I'm just chirpy because I had such a good day. Couldn't help thinking about the 360 RV engine in the YZ 250 frame I've half finished / started, if it goes half as good as this F9 engine it will be a lot of fun to ride. maybe the next project to finish!!!!.

[F5 Dave]

Dirtbikes are awesome, everyone should own one. I wish I had been able to start riding them before the 30yrs old I did

[Ocean1]

Dirtbikes are awesome, everyone should own one. I wish I had been able to start riding them before the 30yrs old I did

I wish I hadn't stopped. But then, I don't bounce nearly as well as I once did, maybe I need to slow down a bit....

[WilDun]

I wish I hadn't stopped. But then, I don't bounce nearly as well as I once did, maybe I need to slow down a bit....

I slowed down a long time ago, wish I could even throw a leg over a dirt bike at all! - if I went 'splat' I'd be a goner.:facepalm:

[Flettner]

To be honest, it wasn't all plain sailing, drum brakes, anyone remember them? Half way round on the first circuit the engine started to labour after a long down hill, thought shit it's going to seize but as I pulled the clutch engine freed up and the bike stopped suddenly. Rear brake was jammed on! Kicked the leaver on the drum and we were away again, no more rear brake for the rest of that circuit. Luckily the full service workshop tool kit I take had enough spares to repair it for the next long loop. Mandatory for all Kawasaki owners:laugh:
But aren't they buggers of things (drum brakes) not much wear in the shoe and the actuator cam starts to overcenter, and jam up. In the old days I used to fit a sleeve over this cam to make it bigger for use with worn shoes so as to get the most usage out of the shoes. Might have to go there again! Aren't discs a giant leap forward. I guess I shouldn't grizzle as I see the hour meter is just on 70 hours now.

[WilDun]

To be honest, it wasn't all plain sailing, drum brakes, anyone remember them? owners:laugh:
But aren't they buggers of things (drum brakes) not much wear in the shoe and the actuator cam starts to overcenter, and jam up.

Yes discs are a great leap forward!
I would put it all down to brake fade rather than shoe wear, where (as in a long downhill stretch), the drum would heat and expand big time and the tension on the spokes wouldn't help, this I found out after just one lap of Pukekohe on my old T20 Suzuki (getting well over 40 years ago) - 45YEARS! :violin:

Your remedy did work though!

[husaberg]

To be honest, it wasn't all plain sailing, drum brakes, anyone remember them? Half way round on the first circuit the engine started to labour after a long down hill, thought shit it's going to seize but as I pulled the clutch engine freed up and the bike stopped suddenly. Rear brake was jammed on! Kicked the leaver on the drum and we were away again, no more rear brake for the rest of that circuit. Luckily the full service workshop tool kit I take had enough spares to repair it for the next long loop. Mandatory for all Kawasaki owners:laugh:
But aren't they buggers of things (drum brakes) not much wear in the shoe and the actuator cam starts to overcenter, and jam up. In the old days I used to fit a sleeve over this cam to make it bigger for use with worn shoes so as to get the most usage out of the shoes. Might have to go there again! Aren't discs a giant leap forward. I guess I shouldn't grizzle as I see the hour meter is just on 70 hours now.

Neil you need to find a 1981-82 YZ250 drum brake or brakeplate they were a nice little 2ls, not to fierce either.
Similar years Honda XL250 and 500 also had a nice little 2ls

[Flettner]

Neil you need to find a 1981-82 YZ250 drum brake or brakeplate they were a nice little 2ls, not to fierce either.
Similar years Honda XL250 and 500 also had a nice little 2ls

O no, that wouldn't be original:bleh:
Old Kawasaki brakes weren't / aren't all that bad, just the maintenance, as with any drum brake!

[Ocean1]

Similar years Honda XL250 and 500 also had a nice little 2ls

They weren't much better, I've had to do Neil's trick on at least two of them.

[Grumph]

O no, that wouldn't be original:bleh:
Old Kawasaki brakes weren't / aren't all that bad, just the maintenance, as with any drum brake!

You very obviously never owned a drum brake Mach 3....They WERE that bad.

I'm watching your trail riding anxiously in the fervent hope you won't hurt yourself before the 24th....Please.

[husaberg]

O no, that wouldn't be original:bleh:
Old Kawasaki brakes weren't / aren't all that bad, just the maintenance, as with any drum brake!

oh hush now, I am pretty sure most Yamaha framed, fuel injected, f9 bighorns came out that way.
324416


They weren't much better, I've had to do Neil's trick on at least two of them.
I used to use newspaper printing aluminium sheets.
They are shimirific. Plus you can cut them with scissors.

[Ocean1]

I used to use newspaper printing aluminium sheets.
They are shimirific. Plus you can cut them with scissors.

I found the shoes wore first, I'd make wee stainless packers that clipped on. And bush the shafts. And hard face the cams... :sweatdrop:

[husaberg]

I found the shoes wore first, I'd make wee stainless packers that clipped on. And bush the shafts. And hard face the cams... :sweatdrop:

Clipped on?

[Ocean1]

Clipped on?

See pic, where the alloy shoes had a steel pad cast into them where the cam contacted? It's rounded at the edges, into what looks like a slot.

I'd make a 16swg packer and roll the upper and lower edges around the edges and into those slots so they stayed put.

[husaberg]

See pic, where the alloy shoes had a steel pad cast into them where the cam contacted? It's rounded at the edges, into what looks like a slot.

I'd make a 16swg packer and roll the upper and lower edges around the edges and into those slots so they stayed put.

Engineers aye

Cut strip of thin alloy sheet and wrap around cam, then stuff in shoe. have a beer Sorted;)
actually drink beer and then use empty beer can for shim.
oh i forgot, then move lever around on spline, but not too much.

[Michael Moore]

I got a fair ways on the milling operations for the upper head pattern before catastrophe hit. :(

It seems I found the limit of the wax fins to take a side loading as when I was at the level shown in the second photo and started the operation to trim the ends of the fins two of the short fins snapped off. I reposted with slower feeds and changed control parameters for slower acceleration rates on the axis motors and immediately snapped off two more of the short fins.

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0593.jpg

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0604.jpg

I'll need to melt this and all the swarf down and make a new block. I was hoping I'd be able to finish the rest of the part and then cast two 55% width sections in urethane and then trim them down and glue them together on the center line for the working pattern, but that doesn't look likely now.

I think it will be pretty straight forward to reorder the existing operations so all the pocketing and end trimming is done first, and then all the cuts to separate the parallel fins.

I wasted my time drilling the extra cross holes higher than the bottom two which I still think will be useful when the taper ball mill gets in that area, but I learned that they weren't needed so now I know. I'm keeping notes as I watch the mill work so I can improve future operations.

I think I'll still come out ahead over trying to piece together a wooden pattern. Renshape would be stronger than the wax, but if I'd found a similar "oops" point with it the rest would be scrap instead of heading for the melting pot. Of course, if I continue to find the wax a bit weak (it worked fine on the much shorter fins on the lower surface pattern) I can always switch to a different material.

cheers,
Michael

[Grumph]

Impressive - and very handy being able to remelt the swarf too.
Going to do any hand finishing ? Radius fin ends etc ?

[Michael Moore]

The Webco head is pretty flat on the outer ends as shown in the second photo, and the tops and inner ends of the fins are radiused. I did a parallel finishing op after the first photo to form the tops of the fins and the inner and outer top corner radii. It was an inner corner/vertical radius that was being done when the fins snapped.

The plan is to do no more hand work than slightly rounding the vertical edges on the outside ends, just enough to break the edge.

If you zoom in on the perspective view of

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Yamaha/WebcoHeadTopsideRhinoScreenCap.jpg

you can see how the inside upper corners are radiused all the way but the front/rear edges are basically a surface that rolls up over the corner. Here's a photo of a head that shows the flat fronts of the fins:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Yamaha/MX175B/webco2010.jpg

I'll give the wax one more try, but I'm also going to call and talk to Freeman's tech support about the Renshape foundry boards.

cheers,
Michael

[Grumph]

Looks like the Webco casting has been rolled over a linisher to finish the fin edges.

I've restored a couple of RD350's and post painting the heads and barrels that's how you get the factory clean fin edges...

[swarfie]

Engineers aye

Cut strip of thin alloy sheet and wrap around cam, then stuff in shoe. have a beer Sorted;)
actually drink beer and then use empty beer can for shim.
oh i forgot, then move lever around on spline, but not too much.

On my drum braked dirt bikes, to get more wear out of the shoes I used to make up a removable/bolt in pivot pin (the pin the shoes rest on at the opposite end to the cam). I'd then turn up different thickness rollers to fit over the pin and file a larger radius in the shoe to suit. That way the shoes wouldn't get less contact patch as they wore but more and the brakes stayed more or less constant as they wore down (well as much as drum brakes could anyway) and I'd be able to get heaps more life out of them. Give that a go Neil and you'll be able to dig all your old shoes out and use them until they're really rooted :laugh:

[ken seeber]

BRAKES/FOUNDRY: Out with the old (drummies) and in with the new (diskies). For karts, we do an aluminium disc, hypereutectic, 16 – 18% Si. These are designed to replace the once very common CI types of Ø200 and 12 thick (428 gm compared to 966). We cast these horizontally. To get the mould to fill we actually spin it. Not really centrifugal casting, but maybe call it spin casting. One pic shows a casting that was done without spinning, resulting a very incomplete fill.

324429324430


MM: We had a think about your machining and consider the swarf build-up on the cutter is applying too much lateral force on the fragile wax fins. So one way that might help is to do a double pass cut at each level. This would leave the majority of the cutter clear on one side, giving room for the swarf. The other option might be to drill vertically in very fine steps, doing a lot of peck cuts, maybe even offsetting as you go. Hope the pic makes some sort of sense.

324431

[Michael Moore]

Ken, thanks for taking the time to think about what was going on.

It was fine all the way above that point in both X and Y axes, and the stepdowns on the taper mill were .012". It was fine motoring along parallel to the fins at faster feeds, but suddenly the corners at that low level were a problem (hey, that sounds like road racing!) There was an air blast clearing the very powdery wax swarf so there was no accumulation at the time things started breaking. The larger chips on the table were from roughing with .5" and .25" flat-end mills, not the taper mill.

The radius at the bottom of the fins is .125" (1/4" ball mill, 1 degree taper). With the fins being 2.25" tall flex gets even worse if I drop to a very long smaller mill. There's going to be a full slot at some point no matter what.

I drilled horizontally instead of vertical plunging to help the zero SFM tip of the ball mill have an easier time by having most of the material being removed to either side of it. Also, I was cutting the slot with a 1/4" flat end mill and then following with the taper mill to the same depth, so most of the cutting in the slots with the taper mill was on the sides, not the tip.

At the level where the fins broke they are 3/16" thick. I took one of them (1.5" long) and it was very easy to snap it in half with my fingers.

I'll give it one more try, this time finishing those 5 pockets and the fin ends in them first, and then complete cutting with the parallel runs to cut the fins apart. That will have the vertical ends with plenty of solid support next to them compared to cutting across a "free" fin.

But if that doesn't do it (wish I'd thought of doing it that way the first time but I got focused on making fins and not on finishing the ends) I'll go for a sturdier material cut with the second set of operations to give it the best possible chance of survival.

Were you having the aluminum rotors coated? I've got a Hunt plasma-sprayed rotor around somewhere, and I talked to Langcourt one time about having my Bultaco Sherpa T hubs nikasiled in place of the peeling chrome plating. They told me they'd done some nikasil-coated aluminum kart rotors for a customer and they worked pretty well.

cheers,
Michael

[Flettner]

Ok, hydro forming chambers. Read the book, saw the film, now had a go myself. Only did a header pipe at three degrees being oval from the cylinder to round. Used a water blaster @ approx 2000 psi. Now I would show you the results as the pipe formed beautifully but I can't bring myself to show the welding. I use bifocal lenses now and it seems I should be wearing them under the welding glasses, I can't $%^*(*&^ see!
Made new anvils for my 'dishing machine' to form the edges of the cut out sheet, this too I could show you but health and safety might be watching:lol:
Unfortunately this result is just too encouraging, I would like to just immerse myself in chamber making for the next few days BUT I have to work at that real job again:weep:
I'm just off out to the shed to try the bifocals, maybe I can get bifocal welding glasses / lenses?

[Frits Overmars]

Ok, hydro forming chambers. Read the book, saw the film, now had a go myself. Only did a header pipe at three degrees being oval from the cylinder to round. Used a water blaster @ approx 2000 psi. Now I would show you the results as the pipe formed beautifully but I can't bring myself to show the welding. I use bifocal lenses now and it seems I should be wearing them under the welding glasses, I can't $%^*(*&^ see! I tried varifocals, could not get used to them. Now I just take my -3 glasses off when welding. Without them I have 20/20 vision all the way up to 50 cm away.

[Ocean1]

Ok, hydro forming chambers. Read the book, saw the film, now had a go myself. Only did a header pipe at three degrees being oval from the cylinder to round. Used a water blaster @ approx 2000 psi. Now I would show you the results as the pipe formed beautifully but I can't bring myself to show the welding. I use bifocal lenses now and it seems I should be wearing them under the welding glasses, I can't $%^*(*&^ see!
Made new anvils for my 'dishing machine' to form the edges of the cut out sheet, this too I could show you but health and safety might be watching:lol:
Unfortunately this result is just too encouraging, I would like to just immerse myself in chamber making for the next few days BUT I have to work at that real job again:weep:
I'm just off out to the shed to try the bifocals, maybe I can get bifocal welding glasses / lenses?

I know exactly what you mean. :laugh: The number of times I mess around with settings trying to get the bloody welder to work only to notice 10 minutes later that I don't have my glasses on. :facepalm:

You can get non-prescription inserts that fit most modern helmets. You do have a decent modern helmet? I find I need both my normal glasses AND the insert. Also, get plenty of light on the job, it helps a lot.

Oh, ah, bifocals sometimes don't work real well, the right bits of the various lenses involved not lining up unless the helmet's clamped across your nose...

[Ocean1]

I tried multifocals, could not get used to them. Now I just take my -3 glasses off when welding. Without them I have 20/20 vision all the way up to 50 cm away.

Aye, the problem with needing glasses to weld is you're usually stuck with a focal range of maybe 300-600mm. Which is fine on the welding table, usually, but not much help if you're hanging off a ladder trying to finish the back of a pipe.

[Flettner]

I tig weld up all my gyro frames no problem but I haven't gas welded for some time. Perhaps part vison impaired and part just useless. I did buy a nice little Harris torch but buggered if I can get it to not backfire all the time. Harris not interested in fixing it.

[190mech]

I stack 2 pairs of reading glasses when I'm tig or gas welding,a 2.0 and a 3.5,heck now I can see the weld beads!!

[Frits Overmars]

bifocals sometimes don't work real well, the right bits of the various lenses involved not lining up unless the helmet's clamped across your nose...

The problem with needing glasses to weld is you're usually stuck with a focal range of maybe 300-600mm. Which is fine on the welding table, usually, but not much help if you're hanging off a ladder trying to finish the back of a pipe.I've never considered hanging off a ladder to weld a pipe. Does it help? :confused:
My main problem with varifocals (i.e. bifocals with a heftier price tag) was laying back on the couch, watching TV through the lower, reading part of the lenses that blurred everything more than 1 meter away. Wearing the glasses upside down was not really an option either.

[Grumph]

I tig weld up all my gyro frames no problem but I haven't gas welded for some time. Perhaps part vison impaired and part just useless. I did buy a nice little Harris torch but buggered if I can get it to not backfire all the time. Harris not interested in fixing it.

Is that the pistol grip type ? I've heard of porous castings on those.

Reading glasses with clip on tinted lenses when gas welding for me. No fogging and i'm good up to 50cm.

[Flettner]

Is that the pistol grip type ? I've heard of porous castings on those.

Reading glasses with clip on tinted lenses when gas welding for me. No fogging and i'm good up to 50cm.
That's a good idea I must try it, thanks.

[Flettner]

I found the shoes wore first, I'd make wee stainless packers that clipped on. And bush the shafts. And hard face the cams... :sweatdrop:

You got wonder if that's what the little recesses were put there for?

[Ocean1]

I've never considered hanging off a ladder to weld a pipe. Does it help? :confused:
My main problem with varifocals (i.e. bifocals with a heftier price tag) was laying back on the couch, watching TV through the lower, reading part of the lenses that blurred everything more than 1 meter away. Wearing the glasses upside down was not really an option either.

It does if the pipe in question is up in the roof trusses, although I must admit I don't do much positional welding now.

Which is probably a good thing because nowadays most such work requires compliance to standards associated with an orbital welding head, and while I can normally see well enough to set one up the price would make my eyes water something fierce.

[Ocean1]

You got wonder if that's what the little recesses were put there for?

As this is a thread to do with casting stuff I'd say it was more to do with what's keeping the OE steel liner in place while pouring. But it might also have been done to make a tight arsed Kiwi's life a little easier, we can't know for sure.

I like swarfie's idea too, and I thought of BMC's tapered cone adjuster idea for the pivot end, you'd just wind the cone in a turn or so when you ran out of brake.

[Flettner]

Ha ha, clean the googles!! makes a big difference. They have been sitting under the bench for some time and it seems a good lens clean makes a huge difference, dumbarse. I'll still try and track down some clip on lenses for my glasses as well.

[Michael Moore]

Greg, the pistol-grip torches are the Henrob/Dillon brand. I bought one of those and literally could not get to grips with it, every way I held it seemed awkward to me. I ended up selling it to a guy in Australia, and I now have two of Kent White/Tinman Tech's Meco Midgets which I like.

https://www.tinmantech.com/products/welding/meco-torch-accessories/meco-midget-torch.php

Jeff was by today and we used my band saw to cut some slices from a 5" bar of (correction, 316 not 303) stainless (avoid this if you can). I've got another one to do for him in the morning, with every slice the bimetal blade takes another 5 to 10 minutes to complete the cut. I think after the next slice that blade will be retired from stainless work.

After chatting with Jeff I think the next iteration of the top side of the head pattern will have the fully radiused corners like on the inside short fins at the outside corners too. It will probably make them easier to mold.

cheers,
Michael

[Grumph]

After reading John Bradley on welding I went out and bought a nice new lightweight torch.
I can't get on with it, I'm still using the old man's prewar solid brass great heavy thing.
Needs strong wrists....

[Michael Moore]

I talked to tech support at Freeman this morning and they are sending me some samples of Renshape 450 and 472. I ordered a suitably sized chunk of 472 from an eBay seller since that sounded a likely choice between the two, and it gets me going a bit sooner. But the 450 is 30% less expensive so if the sample of that machines and finishes nicely I might go with it in the future.

[ken seeber]

Were you having the aluminum rotors coated? I've got a Hunt plasma-sprayed rotor around somewhere, and I talked to Langcourt one time about having my Bultaco Sherpa T hubs nikasiled in place of the peeling chrome plating. They told me they'd done some nikasil-coated aluminum kart rotors for a customer and they worked pretty well.

No, we just run the pads direct on the aluminium, but we do supply them with soft pads (ie less metal) and, whilst they do score up a little, they do work well. Others have made them up from just 6061 plate, after lots of drilling.

So Neil, I've found a way to run disc brakes without the hassle of messy hydraulics.

324478

Not a great pic, but you get the idea. Looks like the major parts (caliper and fork leg clamps) can be sourced from Bunnings. And a bonus would be that it would work very well in the sticky & stinky bubbling mud you guys have over there .

Question. Why did you use oxy to weld up your hydroforming blanks rather than Tig?

[Flettner]

No, we just run the pads direct on the aluminium, but we do supply them with soft pads (ie less metal) and, whilst they do score up a little, they do work well. Others have made them up from just 6061 plate, after lots of drilling.

So Neil, I've found a way to run disc brakes without the hassle of messy hydraulics.

324478

Not a great pic, but you get the idea. Looks like the major parts (caliper and fork leg clamps) can be sourced from Bunnings. And a bonus would be that it would work very well in the sticky & stinky bubbling mud you guys have over there .

Question. Why did you use oxy to weld up your hydroforming blanks rather than Tig?

Is that a wooden wheel? Nice caliper system, you supply those? :laugh:
When welding up chambers I find the tig leaves a messy inside unless you purge weld. At the cost of argon no thanks. I'm only welding mild steel and gas welding does a nice job (when you can see and the torch is adjusted right)
To that end I pulled the Harris apart, found no fault, reassembled and now it works fine? I would like to know why but who cares it's working well now. Using a number 1 tip. Incidentally the welds don't look that much better:facepalm:
This weekend I'm all out expandapipeing, can't wait.

[Flettner]

I talked to tech support at Freeman this morning and they are sending me some samples of Renshape 450 and 472. I ordered a suitably sized chunk of 472 from an eBay seller since that sounded a likely choice between the two, and it gets me going a bit sooner. But the 450 is 30% less expensive so if the sample of that machines and finishes nicely I might go with it in the future.

You've got to look at it like this, if the raw material cost a bit so what, look at how many castings you will get from it, in the long run this cost is insignificant compared to the time you put in.
I know, a bit rich coming from me who likes to find free rubbish wood from the scrap bin.

[Michael Moore]

Which is why I want a material that doesn't snap fins off after hours have been invested!

I looked up the website for the eBay supplier (the seller's address had what looked like a commercial domain name) and it is a pattern shop that looks to be largely or entirely CNC, not "old school". I dropped them a note and got a nice reply back. I was told that the 450 might be a little nicer to hand finish than the 472, but since it is the son of one of the partners who is selling the remnants on eBay they obviously make use of 472.

I've got a bit of info and photos on hydroforming exhausts on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/frame8.htm

Getting the wrinkles dressed out can be a trial sometimes, hammering with the part still pressurized seems to help a lot.

cheers,
Michael

[Flettner]

Which is why I want a material that doesn't snap fins off after hours have been invested!

I looked up the website for the eBay supplier (the seller's address had what looked like a commercial domain name) and it is a pattern shop that looks to be largely or entirely CNC, not "old school". I dropped them a note and got a nice reply back. I was told that the 450 might be a little nicer to hand finish than the 472, but since it is the son of one of the partners who is selling the remnants on eBay they obviously make use of 472.

I've got a bit of info and photos on hydroforming exhausts on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/frame8.htm

Getting the wrinkles dressed out can be a trial sometimes, hammering with the part still pressurized seems to help a lot.

cheers,
Michael

Thank you, good reading.

[F5 Dave]

Ahh heavens, that's who you are, I remember that site from, well like a very long time ago

[Michael Moore]

Dave, my website has been up for 20 years now. I wish I'd had a better idea of how large it would get so I could have started with a plan for better organizing 12500+ files (1.3gb). Every time I think about giving it a sprucing up I'm daunted by the magnitude of the work I'd have to do, and I then go and do something else.

cheers,
Michael