The Bucket Foundry

[Flettner]

Nice job, are the wheels of similar alloy to "mag" car wheels?
I hadn't realized that the little Honda engines were being used in aircraft - thought the Suzuki and Toyotas ruled.

Also are the newer Chev engines still cast iron?- must be heavy! and why do they use a 3 gear reduction box - one idler maybe ?

I think I'm getting a bit behind here! :rolleyes:

The engines are alloy block not cast iron. Three gears are there to shift the output shaft center to the right place for the aircraft and also to get the rotation back the same way as the crankshaft. Yes I think car "mag" wheels use CC601 or LM25, similar material.
I am happy how the wheels have turned out, seems the dollar at 65 cents ish in the USD has driven work our way, about time and long may it last. All these components are exported to the US.

[Flettner]

There was a guy down here converting V12 Jag motors for replica Mustangs/Spitfires. Market seems to have dried up.

I was told many moons ago that for best life a gear pair should be dissimilar steels...One in say EN39B, it's mate in EN36A. The close ratio bike box conversions I've done have all followed this path. Comments ? Experience ?
It's worked for me but obviously not with the loads these boxes will see.

Greg you might well be right. In a close ratio gearbox I would imagine the gears are a compromise, so there would be some tooth face sliding going on. When gears are build to the calculated sizes there is just a rolling tooth interaction so in our case we use EN39B for all three gears as it's the best for maintaining a hard surface and has the strongest tooth root. These gearbox teeth are calculated to do 4000 hours at 300 HP, bending fatigue life, with a heafly safety margin. There have been a few failures, mostly when the aircraft interfaces with the ground the wrong way:laugh: We did have an early failure due to tortional frequency issue with the use of a heavy prop. All props used now must be under a certain weight. Change to a steel flywheel would help. We use a Centerflex (rubber) coupling to join the engine to the gearbox, without this coupling the gearboxes would just smash teeth off, piston engines are rough buggers.

I learned the hard way about dissimilar metals, I made camshafts for my Subaru EA82 development engine. I made new heads with double overhead camshafts (four cams) but I used EN39B for the cams and for the buckets (buckets were offset from the cam center to induce turning). Within a short time heavy cam wear was evident, went through several sets of cams (and buckets) before I worked out what was happening. Had the buckets hard chromed and laped, that fixed it but not before I had decided I hated camshafts and fourstrokes. Too much stuff to make, too expensive to make.

[Grumph]

Greg you might well be right. In a close ratio gearbox I would imagine the gears are a compromise, so there would be some tooth face sliding going on. When gears are build to the calculated sizes there is just a rolling tooth interaction so in our case we use EN39B for all three gears as it's the best for maintaining a hard surface and has the strongest tooth root.

I learned the hard way about dissimilar metals, I made camshafts for my Subaru EA82 development engine. I made new heads with double overhead camshafts (four cams) but I used EN39B for the cams and for the buckets (buckets were offset from the cam center to induce turning). Within a short time heavy cam wear was evident, went through several sets of cams (and buckets) before I worked out what was happening. Had the buckets hard chromed and laped, that fixed it but not before I had decided I hated camshafts and fourstrokes. Too much stuff to make, too expensive to make.

The sets I've done - well, rough turned myself before farming out the cutting, splining, finish grinding etc - have been on the same module as the ones they've replaced. Where it's a sleeve gear 'box keeping the same total no of teeth on the output pair but going up one on one side and down one on the other can close all the ratios up appreciably - and simply too.

Several years back i was in kelford's to see about some cams, got asked about a set of billet Z1 speedway TQ cams they were having trouble with. Like your example, hardened steel billet cams running on hardened steel buckets. OE was of course cast iron cams...
At the time they couldn't do much except nitride the cams which gave acceptable life. Now there are an enormous number of cast iron cam blanks available - ex Turkey of all places. Next time you want to play with cams for a mass production car engine, there's probably a CI blank available.

[seattle smitty]

I learned the hard way about dissimilar metals, I made camshafts for my Subaru EA82 development engine. I made new heads with double overhead camshafts (four cams) but I used EN39B for the cams and for the buckets (buckets were offset from the cam center to induce turning). Within a short time heavy cam wear was evident, went through several sets of cams (and buckets) before I worked out what was happening. Had the buckets hard chromed and laped, that fixed it but not before I had decided I hated camshafts and fourstrokes. Too much stuff to make, too expensive to make.

Don't feel too bad on that one; General Motors managed to do the same thing with what otherwise was an innovative motor for it's day, the Pontiac OHC six of 1965 or thereabouts. Incompatibility between cam and lifters meant that a lot of engines that maybe hadn't been carefully broken-in wore out prematurely. Other than that issue, a pretty neat six, if a bit heavy.

http://www.overheadcammerschapter.150m.com/history.html

[Flettner]

The throttleable transfer FOS cylinder (sliding cylinder) mated up to one of the ISO standard donkey cases, slow progress.
Still need to make a head that attaches to the top of the water jacket and goes down inside the cylinder. Sealed with an oring and a piston ring in front of it. Head will be water cooled also. The three exhausts will be interesting, not sure if I should have a three into one or just three pipes?

[Flettner]

Just standard case reed, will try 24/7 system with this setup later on.

[adegnes]

Very nice!
My vote is for three exhausts, just because it would look ridiculous! Probably easier to get right too, if that's a pro or con is up to you...

[F5 Dave]

Operating same bore, but I'd go 3 as at least you know the resultant isn't being held back by the pipe.

[Flettner]

Very nice!
My vote is for three exhausts, just because it would look ridiculous! Probably easier to get right too, if that's a pro or con is up to you...

I guess? Still a wee way from that yet. These are the same cases as used with the sleeve engine. I'm looking into makeing some pipes for that engine via hydro forming. I see on another thread some real nice results.
Still on the lookout for YZ250 twostroke gearboxes (or engines) 02 onwards, for these cases. Probably end up getting a whole bike and wreaking it, must be parts others want?

[F5 Dave]

SSS forks are pretty good but 06 onwards. Just put some on my GasGas. Actually we've talked about that. After the engine and pipe only the wheels would have a market, and not a large one. Doubt you would sell much else.

[Frits Overmars]

The three exhausts will be interesting, not sure if I should have a three into one or just three pipes?If you want to run the kind of revs that the cylinder is capable of, the pipes will be so short than you can't possibly join the headers.
You could join the tailpipes into one silencer :p.

[ken seeber]

Looks like it's a sliding cylinder day. OK, been a bit busy of late with karting, work and interstate visitors. That’s history so now back into it, no more excuses.

One of the next things is the crankcases for the sliding cylinder. To make things easy (I thought) we are using an old set of IAME reed valve crankcases. The actual deck height is pretty much the same as what is needed, but the face area is way too small for the size of the water jacket. So, the crankcases have been machined down and a thick plate will be welded to the top of each side, machined down to height and then drilled and tapped for the 6 mounting holes.

It’s a sort of race. The aim to get this thing running before we get to see a Ryger 70 hp power curve.

319878319879319880

[Frits Overmars]

To make things easy (I thought) we are using an old set of IAME reed valve crankcases. The actual deck height is pretty much the same as what is needed, but the face area is way too small for the size of the water jacket. So, the crankcases have been machined down and a thick plate will be welded to the top of each side, machined down to height and then drilled and tapped for the 6 mounting holes.There must be a reason you go through all this machining, welding, drilling and tapping instead of using Fletto's ready-made cases, but I can't think of one...

[Flettner]

If you want to run the kind of revs that the cylinder is capable of, the pipes will be so short than you can't possibly join the headers.
You could join the tailpipes into one silencer :p.

I wouldn't join the headers anyway, I was thinking the at the mid section. But you are right, three it is then!

[Flettner]

Looks like it's a sliding cylinder day. OK, been a bit busy of late with karting, work and interstate visitors. That’s history so now back into it, no more excuses.

One of the next things is the crankcases for the sliding cylinder. To make things easy (I thought) we are using an old set of IAME reed valve crankcases. The actual deck height is pretty much the same as what is needed, but the face area is way too small for the size of the water jacket. So, the crankcases have been machined down and a thick plate will be welded to the top of each side, machined down to height and then drilled and tapped for the 6 mounting holes.

It’s a sort of race. The aim to get this thing running before we get to see a Ryger 70 hp power curve.

319878319879319880

I see on facebook Luc F says he can't make the FOS system work, we will have to show him Ken:bleh:. We will make claims but show no evidence, that seems to work.
Luc F would do well to remember Ken Seeber had an FOS type cylinder working in the mid 70's. This new setup is much refined with throttleable transfers (and reduced exhaust duration at low speed, also a half shut off exhaust duct at low speed) . This will go a long way to fixing the problem Luc was having with his cylinder. Opps, thats just speculation, you will have to wait ( an eternity) for the patent to go through:lol:

[Flettner]

There must be a reason you go through all this machining, welding, drilling and tapping instead of using Fletto's ready-made cases, but I can't think of one...

Two different applications Frits, Ken wants to rip the kart world up, where as I'm more the trail rider. We need to put somthing up against the Ryger;)
Hey, if all goes well it WILL end up a bucket racer, 100cc and all. We will say 50ish HP, yah right:eek5:

[ken seeber]

There must be a reason you go through all this machining, welding, drilling and tapping instead of using Fletto's ready-made cases, but I can't think of one...

Frits,

Thanks for the reminder and a reality check. No charge I hope :hug:. We have a few reasons to base the slider on a kart engine crankcase:

• External electric starters for kart engines are plentiful, engaging directly with the end of the crank, spinning at around 2k, making for easy initial starting and running set up.
• With the much higher trapped compression ratio at the low cylinder position, it will be a cinch to add some rotational inertia to smooth things, particularly at idle
• If it works, it’ll be really easy to mount on a kart, lots of frames kicking around.
• Similarly, I know a few dudes over here who have kart engine dynos, so a simple matter to slip on and test.
• Should the O rings leak or seep and there is the risk of water in the crankcase, it’s just so easy to invert and drain a light engine after running.
• On a small test stand, it’ll be easier to play with actuating mechanisms
• The crank 100 rod on the Ø50 crank I will be using has a Ø14 pin, the same as the piston we will be using. Currently Neil doesn’t have a 50 crank, plus his deck height is higher than what mine is being set up for. That’s ok though, as if he makes a 50 crank, he’ll just need a longer rod, not sure where this could come from, but I’m sure Hooser could find something to suit. That being the case and the actuation can be sorted, then what I have could be simply transplanted onto the Fletto ISO standard test crankcase. Then we can watch Fletto ride around his backyard, doing jumps and wheelies with a big smile across his face due to the great performance and easy rideability due to the very wide powerband. :first:
• Being on a stand alone test frame, it’ll be easy to arrange a simple water pump set up and radiator.
• Actually it is a sort of therapy: thinking about it, sketches, into work the next day, making the next bit when I can, gradually watch it come together.
• It might be different if the man wasn’t 5400 km away with a whole lot of water in between.

As to taking over the karting world, I am not so sure. The karting controlling body over here has the imagination of a cockroach to anything other than what comes from Europe (Vortex, IAME and Rotax) so absolutely no reason to even bother. No, I think if it is good, then one might pursue other applications.

[F5 Dave]

Simple water pump. ie; the hose.

If you can afford the water around you way.

[husaberg]

9mm between fins and a short path from heat source to coolant

When I get home I'll find the doc and post it

Hope it's of some help

If I stop off at pub .......but I try to remember

Sent from my SC-01G using Tapatalk

I was sent this From Brian d marge
I have only had a quick peek but it looks very interesting.
(I have posted it elsewhere including ESE)
Air cooled tech ignore the extra valves and oiling.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g83k5qveoa533v8/_cylinder%20review%20.pdf?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qumzhe8k27wffh6/_fins.pdf?dl=0

[Brian d marge]

Hope it is of use

sent for a divine source

[nasone32]

i'm joining the fos frenzy too.
very slowly...
silicate hardened with co2
this is a tribute to Frits

319954319953319955

[Flettner]

i'm joining the fos frenzy too.
very slowly...
silicate hardened with co2
this is a tribute to Frits

319954319953319955

Please, show us as you go, we would be very interested. As I'm sure Frits is.
I've got lots of work real in the way, a good thing, but it is hurting my FOS progress.
I think Ken will be first with his FOS at this rate.

[Flettner]

This sliding cylinder system should work on a standard cylinder also. I would like to try this but having the port base's fixed and the port tops vairable (sliding cylinder), all the way down to the transfers shutting off, Throttleable. Should make for a very wide power curve, good for an old trail rider like me that can't be bothered changing down. And yet still produce a high top end power and still a small light weight engine.

[Frits Overmars]

i'm joining the fos frenzy too. very slowly... silicate hardened with co2. this is a tribute to Frits.I feel honored, Nasone :rolleyes:.


This sliding cylinder system should work on a standard cylinder also. I would like to try this but having the port base's fixed and the port tops vairable (sliding cylinder), all the way down to the transfers shutting off, Throttleable. Should make for a very wide power curve, good for an old trail rider like me that can't be bothered changing down. An yet still produce a high top end power and still a small light weight engine.+1

[husaberg]

this is a tribute to Frits





319964319955

Its a very good likeness:clap:


Seriously though very nice work.

[ken seeber]

Slider update:
This is sort of how it'll look with the adapter plates waiting to be zapped onto the crankcases, followed by some machining. Head blank is underway, having a friend at the local uni being able to wire cut it out to a rough shape.

320090

Been quiet here, surely someone is splashing some hot metal around somewhere?

[Brian d marge]

Can I use it for me racerhttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160302/2993446319afa7dca2ba2c174e0f8142.jpg

sent for a divine source

[Flettner]

I'm out for now, I've got to work for a living for a while, You know the stuff that keeps to toys paid for.
Suddenly real busy with gearbox manfacturing, orders for nine. Big time for us:shit:
In saying that I have found a YZ gearbox, local, for the donkey cases. Just in time.
Nice looking setup there Ken.

[Frits Overmars]

Slider update: This is sort of how it'll look with the adapter plates waiting to be zapped onto the crankcases, followed by some machining.
320090I see you rotated the cylinder base stud pattern through 30°, compared to Flettners universal crankcases, which seems like a sensible move to me. Of course Flettner could easily add another six ears to his cases.
But wouldn't it be wise to rotate the cylinder another 180° in order to avoid a collision of the right-hand exhaust in your picture with the carburettor?

[ken seeber]

But wouldn't it be wise to rotate the cylinder another 180° in order to avoid a collision of the right-hand exhaust in your picture with the carburettor?

Frits, as usual, everything I post is dodgy. In this case the plates need to be welded to the crankcase halves and then match machined. After that the holes will go in. The crankcases are bisexual in that they are the same casting for both sides, so potentially, as some have done, one could mount 2 reed valves and carbs, after opening up the wall between the crankcase and the unused reed cavity. So, the cylinder can have the "on axis" exhaust exiting on the opposite side to the carb. However, instead of just putting in the 6 holes, I may as well put in 12 so we can keep the options open. One consideration here is that the A/R pin in the piston will have to be positioned to suit the orientation used, but have that one covered. Another is the communication created by the piston pin bore uncovering both the exh and transfer in certain positions. This could be solved with piston pin plugs, but at this stage I'll live with it.

[Flettner]

What is so wrong with having the exhaust at one end of the cylinder and the inlet at the other? Uniflow.
It would offer a clean cylinder fill with (tuned right) no transfer charge escaping, especialy if using a small air buffer between the inlet and exhaust. No EFI required. Out of phase cranks can provide enough exhaust blow down (not needed anyway apparently), with smooth balanced operation.
Combustion chamber is compromised by having two pistons against each other (without having to have odd shapes), plugs need to be in the side of the cylinder. If same size pistons there is no squish.
If some trickery were used to make the exhaust piston cause HCCI (assumimg same size pistons) then back off and provide an exhaust path, ie open some exhaust ports, what if?
On all my Uniflow engine designs I've used the gear train as a power take off, the revs are already reduced. This reduction in revs is almost always needed in IC applictions anyway. So the perceived complication of needing a drive from one end of the engine to the other is partly null and void.
All my Uniflow engines to date used two cylinders and four pistons to get the crank case pumping charge the correct volumes, as it happens this my have been the wrong approch, perhaps enough pumping to fill half the cylinder, using the exhaust (chamber) to do the rest. In other words make a simpler single cylinder with two pistons, crank case pumping only from one end (transfer end). Exhaust end would be like a fourstroke, in oil, or perhaps a Ryger? :(
The trick is in the mechanisim that makes the exhaust piston "suddenly" increase compression just at the right time and then just work like a normal piston until next cycle.

[Frits Overmars]

What is so wrong with having the exhaust at one end of the cylinder and the inlet at the other? Uniflow.
It would offer a clean cylinder fill with (tuned right) no transfer charge escaping, especialy if using a small air buffer between the inlet and exhaust. No EFI required. Out of phase cranks can provide enough exhaust blow down (not needed anyway apparently), with smooth balanced operation.
Combustion chamber is compromised by having two pistons against each other (without having to have odd shapes), plugs need to be in the side of the cylinder. If same size pistons there is no squish.
If some trickery were used to make the exhaust piston cause HCCI (assumimg same size pistons) then back off and provide an exhaust path, ie open some exhaust ports, what if?
On all my Uniflow engine designs I've used the gear train as a power take off, the revs are already reduced. This reduction in revs is almost always needed in IC applictions anyway. So the perceived complication of needing a drive from one end of the engine to the other is partly null and void.
All my Uniflow engines to date used two cylinders and four pistons to get the crank case pumping charge the correct volumes, as it happens this my have been the wrong approch, perhaps enough pumping to fill half the cylinder, using the exhaust (chamber) to do the rest. In other words make a simpler single cylinder with two pistons, crank case pumping only from one end (transfer end). Exhaust end would be like a fourstroke, in oil, or perhaps a Ryger? :(
The trick is in the mechanisim that makes the exhaust piston "suddenly" increase compression just at the right time and then just work like a normal piston until next cycle.Food for thought, Neil.
My first, instinctive reaction: for proper scavenging of an uniflow cylinder you'd need a scavenging column with a diameter equal to the bore. Radially aimed transfer ports won't do that. Pockets of spent gases will remain just above the ports, unless you give the ports a lot of axial angle. But then there will remain a central column of spent gases. Besides, large axial angles will result in smaller cross flow areas and in transfer flows that don't slow each other down sufficiently, so you will have a scavenging column that moves too fast and has insufficient density.

In big uniflow diesels the transfer ports are offset tangentially so they create a swirling column that flings to the bore surface, leaving a column of spent gases in the center. Those big diesels have overhead exhaust valves that offer an exit for those spent gases. But if you use exhaust ports in the bore circumference, the fresh mixture will take the easy way out and the spent gases can't get to those exhaust ports because the centrifugal movement favours the high-density fresh mixture and keeps the lower-density spent gases trapped in the middle.

Maybe you're thinking of alternating high- and low-axial angle transfers. It could be the best of two worlds, or it could be combined drawbacks.
Well, I think I've done my best to discourage you :devil2:. Now it's up to you to prove me wrong. If anybody can, it's you :msn-wink:.

[Flettner]

I was hoping you would take the bait, you know Frits, I'm getting lazy, I find it easier to filter design feed back through you than bother spending hours reading other people's work and then trying to digest it.
Lucky for me you have some experience with these matters:laugh:
The transfer issues you elude to are certainly real. In my last two Uniflow engines I have indeed offset the transfers alternate with one aiming up (approx 20 degrees and radial approx 20 degrees) and the next aiming in underneath it, flat and aiming to the center. I'm sure there is a sensible compromise somewhere. In the last engine (not finished) I had an air buffer between the inlet and exhaust.
I'm thinking about how the Ryger transfer system might be of some use in the Uniflow scavange system or some combination.
Don't worry, I'm not starting a new project (no time anyway) but just thinking, as you can see I'm just expanding on the HCCI engine I've got and trying to work it in with the Uniflow design.

[Frits Overmars]

I was hoping you would take the bait, you know Frits, I'm getting lazy, I find it easier to filter design feed back through you than bother spending hours reading other people's work and then trying to digest it.My pleasure Neil.


as you can see I'm just expanding on the HCCI engine.I'm glad you do. I think HCCI is the way to go, for two-strokes, four-strokes, wankels, you name it.
Speaking of wankels, do you know the LiquidPiston engine? http://liquidpiston.com/technology/how-it-works/ I think it is an improvement on the wankel.
The rotor tip seals that are so critical in a wankel, do not reside in the rotor any more, but in the housing, where they can be lavishly lubricated and cooled.
The LiquidPiston engine also avoids the wankel's heat losses because it has lovely compact combustion chambers and constant-volume combustion, begging for HCCI. And I regard the 'crankshaft' kinematics as the ultimate form of a hypocycloidal drive.
I think you cannot design a more compact intermittent combustion engine (as opposed to a turbine, but those are fuel guzzlers).

[WilDun]

Speaking of wankels, do you know the LiquidPiston engine? I think it is an improvement on the wankel.

Frits, is that the same engine which a Russian guy (Veselovsky I think) was experimenting with quite a while ago? I was quite interested in it at the time.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, is that the same engine which a Russian guy (Veselovsky I think) was experimenting with quite a while ago? I was quite interested in it at the time.Maybe, Will. Veselovsky doesn't ring a bell but if you go to http://liquidpiston.com/company/ and click the About Us-tab, you'll find the names Dr. Nikolay Shkolnik and Dr. Alexander Shkolnik. Sounds Russian to me.

[ken seeber]

Slider update.

The crankcase is decked and drilled/tapped allowing the cylinder/water jacket combo to be screwed down.

320323

As it is an SI engine, it'll need something to hold the spark plug, probably a cylinder head. That's next then. Where's all that damn time going?

[Flettner]

Just bung HCCI in it, no need for a sparkplug;) Still need a head though I guess.

[Flettner]

HCCI fun on a Sunday afternoon.

http://autoflightnewzealand.blogspot.co.nz/

Bit of a seizure at the end but worth the wait.

Thankyou Brett S for the fuel Injection idea, works fine.

[husaberg]

HCCI fun on a Sunday afternoon.

http://autoflightnewzealand.blogspot.co.nz/

Bit of a seizure at the end but worth the wait.

Thankyou Brett S for the fuel Injection idea, works fine.

It seemed to really take off when it was leaned out though.

[ken seeber]

Fletto, were you altering the fuel flow rate with the sprayer? It was obviously hunting quite a bit, although one couldn't exactly see if you fingers were moving.
As to it shitting itself, as nothing came out the side, it can't be too bad. :weird:

[Frits Overmars]

As to it shitting itself, as nothing came out the side, it can't be too bad. :weird:Apparently it can take some abuse Ken. After all it's still a two-stroke, although Fletto has managed to make it look like an OHC foulstroke (Overhead Crankshaft, that is)

[breezy]

BDC dwell is not the problem, Will. You can design in as much dwell as you want, either at BDC or TDC.
318630
I think the main disadvantages, not just for two-strokes but in general, are sliding instead or rolling big end pin movement, and / or high bearing contact pressures.

In comparison, I love Flettner's crank-in-a-crank-setup. It'll be interesting to see which gear ratio he managed to fit in and whether his big end pin velocity is a sinoid.

Frits, just been reading some information regarding the Russell Bourke engine, which used the scotch yoke set up on the twin engine he designed. although it was a high hp fairly low rpm set up, the scotch yoke set up seemed to work, even with the machining quality of the day. RPM levels of 10,000 were quoted and even talk of 24,000 possible. Even a passage relating to the use of detonation and non spark combustion reminded me of another engine being currently developed.

[Yow Ling]

RPM levels of 10,000 were quoted and even talk of 24,000 possible.
Don't you start too !

[breezy]

Don't you start too !

Even the patents are in the pulic domain now as they ran out:woohoo:

[Flettner]

So, why does it hunt?

[ken seeber]

Neil,
If the fuelling rate was constant and it looked to be, and the hunting was a “speed” hunting not a “load” hunting, and the thing was effectively running at WOT, then the mixture must have changed, gone leaner, as the speed increased.
So, maybe the trick would be to resurrect the thing into a running state and fit a carby. This would give you much greater control. Maybe try with additional fuelling, eg the spray gun, to trim the mixture. If this doesn’t work, then set the carb up leaner.
As there appeared to be shitloads of fuel all over, it might be that there was just too much and some of this was accumulating in the crankcase and every now and then getting picked up and dumped into the cylinder, making it run either better or worse.
It would also be good if you had some form of loading device, eg keep the belt on the starting motor (letting it act as an absorber, was it 3 phase?), or a small prop or fan (something off an autogyro?). This would enable you to reduce the number of running variables.
Also, if there was some mechanical device to allow you to vary the phase relationship between the two cranks/pistons. Again, the testing of this would be much more
One can’t deny though, it does run and certainly shows potential.
Keep up the good pioneering work.

[husaberg]

Apparently it can take some abuse Ken. After all it's still a two-stroke, although Fletto has managed to make it look like an OHC foulstroke (Overhead Crankshaft, that is)

Funny enough my first thought was one of these.
http://www.barebones.net/images/sohc2b.jpg

[Flettner]

May be just worn out governor linkages.:msn-wink:

Worth a crack Ken, I was just going to throw the rig away and start again but we can rebuild, better than it was, one more time.

[ken seeber]

Slider update.
Cylinder head water jacket done. Handy having a mate who works at the local uni that has a spare wire cutter kicking around. All those taxes over the years finally doing something useful.
The M6 screw sticking out the back is connected to the internal sliding cylinder, so it rises and falls.
The three holes at the top around the central hole are for screws to back screw into the actual cylinder head insert. This spigots into the over-length cylinder liner and will act as the upper sliding guide. This is next.

320461

[ken seeber]

Spent the day blissfully making swarf. Freehand milling, designing on the go. No CAD, no CNC.
Actuating lever actually seems to work. Not sure what to do at the other end, possibly linked to a push-pull cable or just a simple screw adjuster for the first try.
Had a bit of a scare with the high friction level of the main base O ring. However, with a Quad or X ring, this is now quite reasonable.

320791320790

[Flettner]

Who's dumb idea was it to run O rings anyway:shit: Thanks for sharing the X ring thing, might come in useful. Real close to running then?
At this end the HCCI engine is getting rebuilt, slowly, I'd take pictures, only princess Elsa ( grandaughter ) dropped the phone, electronics are so sensitive aren't they! :wings:
New two ring piston at 38.5mm, new rod (Suzuki 50) and a new crank with a new stroke at 16mm all in a new water cooled sleeve,cylinder. Head (what am I saying, there is no head), cylinder studs need to be longer, tonight's job and I will need a longer tooth belt as the whole engine is taller. Should be able to generate 20 to one at approx five to seven degrees after TDC on the working piston, about 14 or 15 to one at TDC on the working piston, so combustion should take place after TDC on the working piston. Would like to have a pressure transducer to see when its happening, but what? Ken tells me that the common rail Diesels have a pressure sensor in the glow plugs, must be in the combustion chambers. I wonder how they work? If I knew what output they had I could, if possible, use the sense signal to trigger my CDI, triggering the timing light, against a timing wheel on the side of the engine. I have used this system on my EFI to "see" when the injectors were turning on and off, spare coil in the injector system triggered the CDI, timing light connected, worked great.
I've got a pipe lined up for it as well this time.

Ken, imagine if any of this shit actually worked:eek:

[ken seeber]

Ken, imagine if any of this shit actually worked:eek:

Everything will work, it's just a matter of how well and how long OR, alternatively, how long and how well......:2thumbsup

Another bonus of the FAS/contra axial layout with a total band of transfers at BDC, means the piston can be a bit shorter, in this case 6gms was lopped off.

[Flettner]

Everything will work, it's just a matter of how well and how long OR, alternatively, how long and how well......:2thumbsup

Another bonus of the FAS/contra axial layout with a total band of transfers at BDC, means the piston can be a bit shorter, in this case 6gms was lopped off.

Ken, the sliding cylinder, it might be a good candidate for HCCI as well. In stead of a separate head with oring and piston ring that the cylinder slides up and down in, the head could be a short stroke piston working in the same extended cylinder with it's crank case attached to the water jacket. Rubber diaphram to seal cylinder to top of the water jacket. The tooth belt drive would then become the crank joiners and the drive out to the dry clutch as well, saving one gear. The wheels are turning.

[Frits Overmars]

Ken, the sliding cylinder, it might be a good candidate for HCCI as well. In stead of a separate head with oring and piston ring that the cylinder slides up and down in, the head could be a short stroke piston working in the same extended cylinder with it's crank case attached to the water jacket. Rubber diaphram to seal cylinder to top of the water jacket. The tooth belt drive would then become the crank joiners and the drive out to the dry clutch as well, saving one gear. The wheels are turning.You're determined to make it look like a foul-stroke, aren't you Neil?:D
I imagine you won't be using a three-part water jacket any more then. I've never really understood why you chose that 3-part jacket for the present sliding cylinder.
I like the thought of using one tooth belt for the lot; it sort of brings KISS back into the idea.

[Flettner]

You're determined to make it look like a foul-stroke, aren't you Neil?:D
I imagine you won't be using a three-part water jacket any more then. I've never really understood why you chose that 3-part jacket for the present sliding cylinder.
I like the thought of using one tooth belt for the lot; it sort of brings KISS back into the idea.

The three sided jacket was about assembly, hard to slide orings over ports so I decided to pull the three sides in on the three exhaust orings, then push the whole cylinder assembly up a few mm to engage the last, large dia, crankcase/transfer oring port seal. I've done this type of thing before and it's turned to custard, orings don't like sliding over big holes while under assembled mechanical pressure. :no: other reason.

This HCCI (AG100) is about ready to run again, only my big clumsy hands broke one of the rings. LS2 100, Yamaha, first oversize, thought I had two pistons and rings but do you think I can find the other set, answer, no. Still needs a longer belt and a 1/8 BSPT ball valve for the crank case drain. And a new phone so I can film it.

[ken seeber]

3 piece or 1 piece? Not sure what the winner is. The big test will be when trying to assemble. Do the O rings pop out into the exh passages? X rings may even be worse as the leading lip could more easily catch. Fortunately one can see up the exh passages and will be able to prod the rings as they pass over the openings, hopefully without damage. Obviously a nice gentle lead-in radius is needed plus lots of grease or rubber lube (KY jelly ? :facepalm:) will be in order.

[speedpro]

feeler gauges or bits of shim may help as well

[Frits Overmars]

orings don't like sliding over big holes while under assembled mechanical pressure.Understood. O-rings don't like sliding over holes, period. Carbon rings are better in that respect. Even if you spring-load their backsides they will have less friction than O-rings. And they can stand the heat better. Felix Wankel already used them in his rotary disc four-stroke heads where the rubbing speed was much greater than what you will ever have in your sliding cylinder layout.
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/wankel-designed-disc-valve-v8-torpedo-engine-other-we-1671467222

[ken seeber]

Some sort of daily ritual.
Come home, look at the emails and, of course, Kiwibiker.
Grab a red
Pull the silder to bits and have a think. Current brain drain is about cooling the stationary head insert, catering for the various vertical positions of the sliding cylinder. Can see a 3D printed water deflector insert becoming useful. Once this is done and a couple of mods to the cylinder, it is then off to have the 3 off O ring grooves put around each exh outlet.

320823

[Flettner]

Lucky, seems Australia has three sets of rings available and now I have one set on route to me. I will get Wayne at Blackwoods to fit the rings this time, after all they are Yamaha rings.

[ken seeber]

Slider update. The sliding cylinder is now out with a friend to have the 3 O ring grooves cut around each of the exhaust ports. When back, it goes off for plating.

Current thinking is about the head cooling. Below is a pic of the blank insert and cover plus a pic of the design of a 3D printed insert to help my old brain work visualize and out a flow path.
320929320927


The issue being that when the liner is at its highest position that the top of the sealing band of the insert is buried around 10 mm below the top of the liner. The quick 3D printed insert inside the grey pipe (representing the liner) shows these dead areas.

320928[

If one had a very general, non- directional water flow, this wouldn’t provide any form of decent cooling of both the back of the squish band and also the plug thread. So, the solution, in my mind is for the head insert to have some vertical flutes within the 3 major reliefs to direct the flow, but in conjunction with a 3D printed directional flow device. Watch this space. As usual, time is the thing.

[Flettner]

Slider update. The sliding cylinder is now out with a friend to have the 3 O ring grooves cut around each of the exhaust ports. When back, it goes off for plating.

Current thinking is about the head cooling. Below is a pic of the blank insert and cover plus a pic of the design of a 3D printed insert to help my old brain work visualize and out a flow path.
320929320927


The issue being that when the liner is at its highest position that the top of the sealing band of the insert is buried around 10 mm below the top of the liner. The quick 3D printed insert inside the grey pipe (representing the liner) shows these dead areas.

320928[

If one had a very general, non- directional water flow, this wouldn’t provide any form of decent cooling of both the back of the squish band and also the plug thread. So, the solution, in my mind is for the head insert to have some vertical flutes within the 3 major reliefs to direct the flow, but in conjunction with a 3D printed directional flow device. Watch this space. As usual, time is the thing.

What water pump are you using? Or just the hose for now?

This should wake the neigbours, just waiting for the LS2 rings.

[ken seeber]

What water pump are you using? Or just the hose for now?

This should wake the neigbours, just waiting for the LS2 rings.

Think that for first running (ie same as you with the HCCI) that I'll just cobble up a small aquarium pump, but for on a kart, probably will just use a common axle driven , via a belt drive, pump.

At least with your exhaust you should know if it is running, same as the rest of the population of Hamilton. :2thumbsup

[ken seeber]

The huge part for the core box took 18,5h. The matrial cost is about 8 EUR.
I had to print the part skewed, because there is a printer limit with 200x200x180mm.

Polinizei,
Just wondering how you went with making the sand cores and if you ever did a complete casting?
Thanks
Ken

[lodgernz]

Neil, this is probably a silly question and I might be very embarassed by the answer.
I thought I was following this thread, but somewhere I missed the reason why your "ignition" piston has to run at twice engine speed?

[Flettner]

Neil, this is probably a silly question and I might be very embarassed by the answer.
I thought I was following this thread, but somewhere I missed the reason why your "ignition" piston has to run at twice engine speed?

No problem, I jump from poject to project so fast even I don't know whats going on most of the time. But in this instance I do, the little piston is required to raise the compression very quickly at just the right time hence the double speed. I may be fitting oval gears soon to get even faster rise time, but we will see how this goes first. Original proposal was for three times engine speed but I think that is just silly.

[polinizei]

Polinizei,
Just wondering how you went with making the sand cores and if you ever did a complete casting?
Thanks
Ken
Hi Ken,
instead of casting, I did a intensiv engmod review...
Since that session I'm redesigning my CAD drawingins, to solve my virtual issues. [emoji7]

[breezy]

The three sided jacket was about assembly, hard to slide orings over ports so I decided to pull the three sides in on the three exhaust orings, then push the whole cylinder assembly up a few mm to engage the last, large dia, crankcase/transfer oring port seal. I've done this type of thing before and it's turned to custard, orings don't like sliding over big holes while under assembled mechanical pressure. :no: other reason.

This HCCI (AG100) is about ready to run again, only my big clumsy hands broke one of the rings. LS2 100, Yamaha, first oversize, thought I had two pistons and rings but do you think I can find the other set, answer, no. Still needs a longer belt and a 1/8 BSPT ball valve for the crank case drain. And a new phone so I can film it.

Neil, just watched your last video of the hcci engine, just before it broke it sounded like it was really getting going... what caused the rpm to pick up and start to race before it broke?:sherlock::sherlock:

[Flettner]

Neil, just watched your last video of the hcci engine, just before it broke it sounded like it was really getting going... what caused the rpm to pick up and start to race before it broke?:sherlock::sherlock:

The Ryger phemomenon:laugh:

Don't know? I think I need a pressure transducer to find out, and some load. It's all ready to fire up again, just waiting on these LS2 rings.

[lodgernz]

No problem, I jump from poject to project so fast even I don't know whats going on most of the time. But in this instance I do, the little piston is required to raise the compression very quickly at just the right time hence the double speed. I may be fitting oval gears soon to get even faster rise time, but we will see how this goes first. Original proposal was for three times engine speed but I think that is just silly.

Oh, perfectly clear. I guess the extra stroke of the little piston around BDC has no negative effect. Maybe helps eject exhaust gases?
With oval gears you might be able to get it to stay in its lowest position thoughout most of the combustion phase.
As it currently is, it must be moving back up as combustion is going on, presumably reducing pressure on the real piston?

[Flettner]

Oh, perfectly clear. I guess the extra stroke of the little piston around BDC has no negative effect. Maybe helps eject exhaust gases?
With oval gears you might be able to get it to stay in its lowest position thoughout most of the combustion phase.
As it currently is, it must be moving back up as combustion is going on, presumably reducing pressure on the real piston?

Problem is, I don't know where combustion is actualy taking place? Where I think it's happening, the small piston is still nearing it's TDC with the big piston just over TDC. Burn should be rather quicker than normal ignition as it's taking place all over the chamber at the same (ish) time, not starting off at the spark plug and the moving through the chamber. Normal combustion, first part of combustion is quite slow as the flame kernal surface area keeps doubling in size, exponentially until all is consumed.
This HCCI type of combustion should create lots of small fires at once throughout the combustion chamber, working piston is just over TDC to hopfully take advantage of this quick combustion. With normal HCCI this "ignition" timing is hard to control but that is where the timed small combustion piston should give an accurate point. Or not, I guess we will find out.
Small piston will add to the expansion ie do useful work. but is not part of the swept volume calculation for CC rateing.

[lodgernz]

Thanks Neil. Fascinating.

[Flettner]

Rings turned up today, had the HCCI running again, similar results but I seem to be able to modulate the engine by the spray gun trigger now, although still pretty hairy.

[TZ350]

Good Work .... :niceone:

[Frits Overmars]

Think that for first running ... I'll just cobble up a small aquarium pump, but for on a kart, probably will just use a common axle driven , via a belt drive, pump.Keep those karts waiting on the start line for 30 seconds and the coolant in the cylinders will be boiling. Bring your own tea bag :whistle:.

[Flettner]

I give up, this is too frightening. The HCCI engine caught, after a big dose of fuel and away it went. Stoped the fuel and jumped away, how hard can an AG 100 rev before it spreads itself all over the workshop? It just kept reving (screeming ) until it had consumed all that was in it's crank case and anything else it could find to consume and burn. Should have put my hand over the inlet I guess but I thought it might consume that too:lol:
This engine needs a real load, free reving is not to good for it's health or for that matter mine. I thought I could use the electric starter motor for some load but no, it just keeps spitting the belt off and I don't think the electric motor is very happy about it.

[Grumph]

Have you got a spare prop sitting round that could be used as load ?

Hmm, might have to anchor the testbed down a bit better......

[Flettner]

Have you got a spare prop sitting round that could be used as load ?

Hmm, might have to anchor the testbed down a bit better......

I do, and it would probably work well. First though I need a clutch for the AG 100. It turned up here with advice that the kick starter didn't work. So after a look inside I see the reason the kick starter don't work is no clutch! I was waiting for someone to trade a rooted AG 100 in to Blackwood's but low dairy payout seems all the farmers are hanging on to them. One will turn up.

[husaberg]

I do, and it would probably work well. First though I need a clutch for the AG 100. It turned up here with advice that the kick starter didn't work. So after a look inside I see the reason the kick starter don't work is no clutch! I was waiting for someone to trade a rooted AG 100 in to Blackwood's but low dairy payout seems all the farmers are hanging on to them. One will turn up.

post something here.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/93220-Bucket-bits-wanted-amp-services-needed/page121
Pretty sure whitetrash or Drew had a dt100 I will ask.


Site inductions work.

Visitor injuries are lowered....because no one can be fucked with the induction, so they don't go to sites.
Do you have a Ag100 clutch drew.

[F5 Dave]

Have you got a spare prop sitting round that could be used as load ?

Hmm, might have to anchor the testbed down a bit better......
Gee, that sounds, um, slightly, you know? . . . dangerous?

[husaberg]

Gee, that sounds, um, slightly, you know? . . . dangerous?

I posted a pic of Bert Monroes Dyno somewhere. that had over 6 feet of chain whipping around.
Neil could hook up the engine to his water brake dyno I guess.:msn-wink:

[ken seeber]

Keep those karts waiting on the start line for 30 seconds and the coolant in the cylinders will be boiling. Bring your own tea bag :whistle:.

Frits, ha, ha, ha….very good. “Does sir take milk and sugar?” :violin:

But you’re right, axle driven pumps are a compromise. Yes on a direct drive, clutchless engine, such as earlier engines such as the 100 cc CIK, the popular clutched IAME 125 cc X30 and, even now, with the new 125 cc CIK OK engines they do preclude the cup of tea on the grid option, but at least there is some relationship between the pump and the engine rpms. The clutched Rotax Max engine does carry its own pump.

KZ engines run axle driven pumps, so the coolant flow in the lower gears will be relatively low.

Many a year ago when involved with the ARC water cooled kart engine (an Oz made engine that mimicked, with a high level of interchangeability and performance levels, the very popular Yamaha KT100S engine), I was involved with a water cooled version. At this time axle pumps were new. So we looked at an engine speed pump. This had a Ø22 impeller. The flow rate at 14k was really impressive. However it wasn’t adopted as the actual pump interfered with the seat stay tube on virtually every kart.

This was driven by the screw heads of screws that were fitted into the extractor holes of the ignition rotor.

320997320998320999

[Flettner]

I posted a pic of Bert Monroes Dyno somewhere. that had over 6 feet of chain whipping around.
Neil could hook up the engine to his water brake dyno I guess.:msn-wink:

I was looking at that in reality, the dyno. Either way it needs that clutch.

I've got the sleeve valve bug again, got a gearbox in it now. Need to make a clutch cover, cast or machine from solid? I have to say loading the gearbox in from the top (horizontal split cases) is way easier than normal AND you can check the gearbox by hand seeing the gears all engage smoothly.
Also have to make some exhausts, I've got a sheet of steel and intend to have a go at hydro forming an exhaust (or two).

[Flettner]

Gee, that sounds, um, slightly, you know? . . . dangerous?

Yes Dave I agree, Health and Safety and all that:argh:
All those Gyro's running up in my back yard with those ungarded props will have to stop now, they sure know how to take the fun out of life.

[F5 Dave]

Back yard OK. In a shed. That seems, well. . .

[Drew]

I do, and it would probably work well. First though I need a clutch for the AG 100. It turned up here with advice that the kick starter didn't work. So after a look inside I see the reason the kick starter don't work is no clutch! I was waiting for someone to trade a rooted AG 100 in to Blackwood's but low dairy payout seems all the farmers are hanging on to them. One will turn up.I've got a DT100 motor. All yours for a box of Heineken...or you can just have it.

[husaberg]

I've got a DT100 motor. All yours for a box of Heineken...or you can just have it.

You should have asked him to CNC something blingy for the Sidecar, like a thermo housing.
And Cheers.

[Flettner]

I've got a DT100 motor. All yours for a box of Heineken...or you can just have it.

Wellington? I'll be there next weekend. You are on, may I visit, thankyou.
The good wife will be "over the moon" knowing we will be bringing another quality engine home.:laugh:
Heineken, no problem.

[Drew]

Wellington? I'll be there next weekend. You are on, may I visit, thankyou.
The good wife will be "over the moon" knowing we will be bringing another quality engine home.:laugh:
Heineken, no problem.

Yeah, no worries. PM me when you're in town and I'll give you the address.

[Flettner]

Sleeve engine in the YZF250 frame. Still lots to do but it's good to see it with the radiators etc all fitted up, seems it will fit after all. I've drawn up some pipes but thats the easy bit, second is making them and third making them fit.
The side covers, clutch and flywheel, still need to be made. I'm leaning toward casting the clutch cover and 3D machining the flywheel cover, because of solid aluminium cost (and the chance of a mistake!).
See water ports for water cooled crank case.
If this cylinder don't work there are plenty more lined up to take it's place and I've told it so.

[ken seeber]

Sleeve engine in the YZF250 frame. .

Good stuff.

Got a bit of time today and did some scalloping of the head insert, matching outlet passage within head cover matching up with a Ø16 hose tail outlet fitting. Bit more machining on this, then a 3D printed coolant flow guide and then onto the crankcases (bit more machining to clean up the inside and bearings seals). Hopefully have the cylinder back next week with the 3 exhaust O ring grooves in it, then off for plating.

321035321036

Now, seeing this is a foundry page, have a look at this. Obviously done with hot metal, spiced with a touch of danger. Can anyone guess how it was done?

321037

[Flettner]

Droped in water? Spiced with danger.

[ken seeber]

Droped in water? Spiced with danger.

Smarty. I'll have to think of something more dangerous. :brick:

[Ocean1]

Smarty. I'll have to think of something more dangerous. :brick:

There was once a large, flat wobbly shaped bit of cast iron hung on the NZ rail workshop wall at Hillside.

It was lifted off the floor, having been deposited there after a crucible fell from a gantry.

Some say you could still make out footprints...

[husaberg]

Smarty. I'll have to think of something more dangerous. :brick:

Mercury, nitric acid ethanol, and a ball peen hammer.
Its stinks a bit though.

[ken seeber]

Mercury, nitric acid ethanol, and a ball peen hammer.
Its stinks a bit though.

Husa, sounds dangerous, so I guess that's good then. Stand back, here it goes....... :facepalm:

[Yow Ling]

How would it go into Jelly ? The eating kind , not the KY kind

[husaberg]

How would it go into Jelly ? The eating kind , not the KY kind

That's stuffs confusing, if you are not meant to eat it why is it Flavoured?:lol:

[Drew]

That's stuffs confusing, if you are not meant to eat it why is it Flavoured?:lol:
Read the pack. Completely edible and non harmful to dogs and cats.

[Flettner]

Lot of talk in F1 Technical about HCCI being used this year (and last year by some). Is it real? How is it achieved? I've read it's a composite system with spark ignition still used at part of the rev range. If you are to belive what is written, Renault has just come on board with it's system recently, suddenly they seem to have some power. I couldn't care less about F1 but it is interesting talk never the less. Anyone else heard anything?

[Muciek]

I have read it at Mat Oxley blog this morning and I was about to post it. They talk about sound change when hcci kicks in.

[Flettner]

I have read it at Mat Oxley blog this morning and I was about to post it. They talk about sound change when hcci kicks in.

Yes, please post it, thank you.

[Muciek]

Here it is but not very much to read http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/f1s-power-secret/

[husaberg]

Lot of talk in F1 Technical about HCCI being used this year (and last year by some). Is it real? How is it achieved? I've read it's a composite system with spark ignition still used at part of the rev range. If you are to belive what is written, Renault has just come on board with it's system recently, suddenly they seem to have some power. I couldn't care less about F1 but it is interesting talk never the less. Anyone else heard anything?

I wonder if that ties in with fuel octane rating becoming utterly irrelevant at very high revs. (like 15:1 and higher comp on 80 octane petrol)
Honda did a lot of work on that in the 60's, I can't be bothered finding it, but Kevin Cameron wrote a fair bit about in in various books.

All bets are off when you try to run it at low revs under load though, pretty sure Nascars and Indycars can't do that either though.

[Frits Overmars]

Here it is but not very much to read http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/f1s-power-secret/
It is believed the dome of each piston has an extension in its centre, fitting into a recess within the combustion chamber. Within this ‘chamber within a chamber’ the mixture is compressed to the point of spontaneous ignitionHow do you guide an extension of a forward-rearward-rocking main piston into that recess? And what's more, since this extension has to generate some proper pressure, it will need to have a piston ring as well, either moving with the extension or stationary in the recess. That would aggravate the guidance problem tenfold.


When in conventional spark plug mode either the upper chamber is not fed with fuel or the extension in the piston is a ‘plunger’ type that can be extended or withdrawn.A movable plunger upon a fast-moving piston? Unlikely.


HCCI engines promise not only a better fuel economy/performance trade off but also much lower NOx emissions, because the higher temperatures created by the compression ignition produces less soot.HCCI generates less NOx because the temperatures are lower, not higher. And HCCI generates less soot because it can work with an oxygen surplus that would make the mixture too lean for a flame to spread. HCCI doesn't need flame spreading; there is no flame front, as the burning starts simultaneously all over the combustion chamber.

This is also the second reason for low NOx: the mixture is completely consumed in about one tenth of the time it would take with spark ignition, so the N2 and O2 molecules that would merge into NOx, given sufficient temperature during sufficient time, are exposed to combustion heat during a much shorter period of time.


They talk about sound change when hcci kicks in.Now that sounds familiar :D. It was one of the most striking impressions during my first acquaintance with HCCI.

[Grumph]

A lot of that doesn't add up as Frits has said. If they're cutting fuel to that part of the combustion chamber I'd see this as inferring direct injection to the chamber...Which I thought was still banned.
When Gordon Blair was out here to give a lecture some years back, he described F1 combustion chambers then as a sheet of paper with four deep pockets for the valves which he thought was where the combustion took place. IE to get the compression they needed the chamber was mostly squish area.
I can certainly see an area around the central plug being shaped as described, whether the clearances needed to avoid metal to metal contact would be small enough to make it work like Flettner's jockey piston I don't know...

[Drew]

If the insert thingie was a taper, could they calculate the exact amount of conrod stretch and where the magic flash point starts to occur?

[Frits Overmars]

If the insert thingie was a taper, could they calculate the exact amount of conrod stretch and where the magic flash point starts to occur?Maybe it would work if the insert thingie was a flintstone :p

[Drew]

So the consensus among everyone is that this isn't something that is practiced?

[ken seeber]

Drew,
My thoughts are that there is no chance of any type of protrusion of the piston entering a recess in the head to provide some form of a separate higher pressure chamber. The incredibly short current performance 4 stroke pistons have an L/D ratio is such that the piston could be easily tilt either way, kicking the protrusion over way more than the small clearance needed. Plus, the protrusion would inevitably run much hotter than the head (and its secondary chamber bore) so its size and fit into the head would be very hard to control or even predict.
And also, even if it did work, what about the operation when HCCI wasn’t active? I don’t think any combustion chamber in an SI engine would like to have a big hot dick in the middle, interrupting the combustion process and also if the plug was in the centre of the head, it’d be in the middle of the supposed HCCI chamber, sealing off the rest of the remaining annular charge.
Gotta be something else in my opinion.

[Drew]

Mibbee they just rely on revs and red hot exhaust valves the same as drag cars?

[Ocean1]

Drew,
My thoughts are that there is no chance of any type of protrusion of the piston entering a recess in the head to provide some form of a separate higher pressure chamber. The incredibly short current performance 4 stroke pistons have an L/D ratio is such that the piston could be easily tilt either way, kicking the protrusion over way more than the small clearance needed. Plus, the protrusion would inevitably run much hotter than the head (and its secondary chamber bore) so its size and fit into the head would be very hard to control or even predict.
And also, even if it did work, what about the operation when HCCI wasn’t active? I don’t think any combustion chamber in an SI engine would like to have a big hot dick in the middle, interrupting the combustion process and also if the plug was in the centre of the head, it’d be in the middle of the supposed HCCI chamber, sealing off the rest of the remaining annular charge.
Gotta be something else in my opinion.

So add some depth to the piston skirts, make the protrusion a cavity, (cylindrical bore) and put the protrusion, (a small piston) in the head.

Control protrusion depth with a cam running at engine revs, possibly variably timed to manage combustion timing.

Or use a solenoid so you can also turn it off at "normal" combustion speeds.

[Flettner]

Mibbee they just rely on revs and red hot exhaust valves the same as drag cars?

Maybe there is more to that than just an idea. If combustion chamber was under the exhaust valves, squish averywhere else, then as the valves get hot with load, so auto combustion will occur.

[Ocean1]

Maybe there is more to that than just an idea. If combustion chamber was under the exhaust valves, squish averywhere else, then as the valves get hot with load, so auto combustion will occur.

Wouldn't be HCCI then, would it?

Be a sort of glow plug.

[Grumph]

Wouldn't be HCCI then, would it?

Be a sort of glow plug.

Yes, but I'd argue it would still occur later than the "normal" spark ignition. And as i read it, it's the later ignition which is releasing more usable work.

Have i got that correct ?

[Ocean1]

Yes, but I'd argue it would still occur later than the "normal" spark ignition. And as i read it, it's the later ignition which is releasing more usable work.

Have i got that correct ?

Certainly less of an issue with det, but yes, supposedly more efficient combustion process, producing more energy per fuel unit.

[Flettner]

If exhaust gas recirculation causes HCCI in twostrokes ie hot exhaust gas can't get out in time so stays in to re ignite the next charge, then with turbo fourstrokes this could easily be achived by ECU turbo control of turbo back pressure and special valve timing, let the exhaust valve open just a bit on inlet cycle. So no need for fancy combustion chambers under the exhaust valves.
I don't think the piston on the piston is a viable/workable idea.

[Ocean1]

If exhaust gas recirculation causes HCCI in twostrokes ie hot exhaust gas can't get out in time so stays in to re ignite the next charge, then with turbo fourstrokes this could easily be achived by ECU turbo control of turbo back pressure and special valve timing, let the exhaust valve open just a bit on inlet cycle. So no need for fancy combustion chambers under the exhaust valves.
I don't think the piston on the piston is a viable/workable idea.

I thought the definition of HCCI inferred a compression high enough to auto-ignite the mixture throughout? In which case anything pre-igniting it locally isn't HCCI?

I was suggesting a small blind cavity in the main piston. Possibly hemispherical. And a corresponding piston in the head, moved vertically so as to control compression, and therefore ignition.

Fewer mechanical issues with both alignment and room to actuate the small piston. Might look a bit too much like a 4T for this crowd, though. :bleh:

[TZ350]

Could the smaller HCCI piston be operated with a cam and spring like a poppet valve, that way the movement of the piston does not have to be linear. The rate of acceleration and compression could be very rapid and the timing of the event altered on the fly like the valve timing in a Vtec engine.

[Ocean1]

Could the smaller HCCI piston be operated with a cam and spring like a poppet valve, that way the movement of the piston does not have to be linear. The rate of acceleration and compression could be very rapid and the timing of the event altered on the fly like the valve timing in a Vtec engine.

Yes. Or with a solenoid, or pneumatics, which will do whatever the ECU tells it to.

Is there a way around the need to have the engine run non- HCCI speeds/load? Seems like that's where most of the tuning issues may come from.

Maybe we could have an "electric transmission". :shifty: Engine runs at 17K rpm, (or whatever's needed for HCCI) and drives a generator which feeds a motor which drives the rear wheel. Add a battery/capacitor just big enough to dampen down the all or nothing engine output. In fact you might have to shut the main engine down on the start line, use the battery to drive it off the line until 1st gear gets the engine up to minimum HCCI speeds, turn on the fuel and away...

[Flettner]

The cam idea would be possible (if one didn't hate cams so much) but yes strict sense HCCI is compression based but I guess that covers anything not spark plug or direct injected. I just like to use timed high compression as it does not rely on hot previous gases so will start cold and run at any rpm without a spark plug, under control, although you wouldn't think so by the video:laugh:
Right, lets start putting some of these ideas into practice, anyone / everyone.
I'll have the AG fitted up to the dyno next week (thanks to Drew and the clutch).

[Ocean1]

Right, lets start putting some of these ideas into practice, anyone / everyone.

Too busy with work. :baby:

I'm only here now because I'm boring something in the lathe that takes 8min per cut.

...And I'm outa here.

[Ocean1]

I was suggesting a small blind cavity in the main piston. Possibly hemispherical. And a corresponding piston in the head, moved vertically so as to control compression, and therefore ignition.

And thinking a little more clearly: there doesn't have to be any cavity in the main piston, does there?

The "compression-enhancing" piston can simply move out to flush with the rest of the combustion chamber, rapidly, a degree or so past tdc

[Grumph]

Like Ocean, thinking while working...this whole HCCI thing in the applications it's reputed to be appearing on would seem to be rpm related.
The Ryger (sorry for mentioning it) would seem to have an upper rpm boost of some kind - which does not seem to be included in customer engines,LOL..
And the F1 engines may actually be using it to beat the mandated RPM limits of the common software they have to use now.
If some time this F1 season there is a shitfight about the leaders using too many revs, we may find out.

Edit - if it's being used in F1, no reason it can't be used in MotoGP - except they make too much power now, so we probably won't see it.

[eldog]

Too busy with work. :baby:

I'm only here now because I'm boring something in the lathe that takes 8min per cut.

...And I'm outa here.
Need a bigger lathe?:apumpin: Almost a tip edge per cut?

[eldog]

Since it's a racing engine why not a flexible end to the piston, much like a pressure Flexi disc.
a separate internal piston may have a problem with guidance length vs diameter.

recess the exhaust valves to create a space to not all is exhausted

race engine only has to last a race not a life time

[Ocean1]

Need a bigger lathe?:apumpin: Almost a tip edge per cut?

Lathe's big enough, what's taking the time is using a 25mm boring bar 300mm long in 420 stainless.

Bloody noise is still in my head...

[Drew]

Since it's a racing engine why not a flexible end to the piston, much like a pressure Flexi disc.
a separate internal piston may have a problem with guidance length vs diameter.

recess the exhaust valves to create a space to not all is exhausted

race engine only has to last a race not a life time
Haven't they got some gay single motor per round rule?

[Frits Overmars]

if the plug was in the centre of the head, it’d be in the middle of the supposed HCCI chamber.
321101
Top view of a Formula 1 piston. The head looks the same, only mirrored: all cluttered up with valves. There's barely room for a spark plug, so forget a second piston in the head.


as i read it, it's the later ignition which is releasing more usable work. Have i got that correct ?More or less, Grump. The later ignition has the advantage that there is less pressure on the piston before TDC, so that yields some power. This later ignition is made possible by the much faster burn in a HCCI process. But the main advantage of HCCI is that there is spontaneous combustion all over the place, without the need for a flame spreading outward, starting at the spark plug.
HCCI will tolerate mixtures that are too lean or too rich for a flame to spread, and it will consume all the fuel (if lean) or all the oxygen (if rich) present.



supposedly more efficient combustion process, producing more energy per fuel unit.Not more energy per burned fuel unit, but all units really do get burned; spark ignition leaves something to be desired in this respect.

[ken seeber]

321101
Top view of a Formula 1 piston. The head looks the same, only mirrored: all cluttered up with valves. There's barely room for a spark plug, so forget a second piston.


Piston is very well made with lots of detail features. They are very obviously chasing compression ratio, ie the projections under each valve to reduce the volume of the combustion chamber. Overall its surface area/volume ratio must be very high, particularly when compared to a classic 2 stroke chamber. If the head matches, then there must be many areas of close clearances, leading to quench leading to unburnt fuel or unburnt HC emissions. Seeing there isn't any LA4 or ECE emission cycle testing, I would think they just don't care. However all this is about a conventional SI process, so if HCCI is present, then it is an entirely different ball game and all this could be meaningless.

Frits, how old is the pic and do you think it is from an "HCCI" engine?

[Frits Overmars]

if it's being used in F1, no reason it can't be used in MotoGP - except they make too much power now, so we probably won't see it.Yamaha, Honda and Suzuki would agree that Ducati makes too much power. But power would not be the main issue in MotoGP; HCCI would permit a lighter fuel load.

[Frits Overmars]

Piston is very well made with lots of detail features. They are very obviously chasing compression ratio, ie the projections under each valve to reduce the volume of the combustion chamber. Overall its surface area/volume ratio must be very high, particularly when compared to a classic 2 stroke chamber. If the head matches, then there must be many areas of close clearances, leading to quench leading to unburnt fuel or unburnt HC emissions.... However all this is about a conventional SI process, so if HCCI is present, then it is an entirely different ball game and all this could be meaningless.
Frits, how old is the pic and do you think it is from an "HCCI" engine?It's an oldie, from a 3,2 liter V-10. And they certainly did not employ HCCI at the time. If you look closely you'll notice that the valve pockets give away the radial valve arrangement. And you're right about the cluttered-up combustion chamber. These engines revved to about 19000 rpm and they needed 55° ignition advance at WOT, and even more at part-throttle.

[Grumph]

It's an oldie, from a 3,5 liter V-10. And they certainly did not employ HCCI at the time. If you look closely you'll notice that the valve pockets give away the radial valve arrangement. And you're right about the cluttered-up combustion chamber. These engines revved to about 19000 rpm and they needed 55° ignition advance at WOT, and even more at part-throttle.

Yes, that's pretty much what Blair said when he was here. Refer my earlier comment about the chamber being a sheet of paper with 4 recesses.
We had an interesting chat about 5 valve heads - he'd just come from doing some work in japan - and agreed they were crap, LOL.

Is squish - or for that matter, chamber shape, relevant if you can initiate HCCI ?

[eldog]

Haven't they got some gay single motor per round rule?

1 Motor thousands of spare parts?we can rebuild them
Would be a real bugger if you had to rely on one

[breezy]

The cam idea would be possible (if one didn't hate cams so much) but yes strict sense HCCI is compression based but I guess that covers anything not spark plug or direct injected. I just like to use timed high compression as it does not rely on hot previous gases so will start cold and run at any rpm without a spark plug, under control, although you wouldn't think so by the video:laugh:
Right, lets start putting some of these ideas into practice, anyone / everyone.
I'll have the AG fitted up to the dyno next week (thanks to Drew and the clutch).

how about starting from scratch, with high compression engine started up with spark ignition then at various rpm levels reduce the spark energy at even gaps slowley down to 0volts and see if it continues to run...:sherlock:

[eldog]

Lathe's big enough, what's taking the time is using a 25mm boring bar 300mm long in 420 stainless.

Bloody noise is still in my head...
Stst 300 stick out I can almost hear it.
I don't remember having to m/c 420 grade

Is it magnetic? Some of those Stst grades really tough.
Used to m/c H13 hardened liners out of extrusion presses
As per usual all of that equipment gone overseas. Still some smaller presses working here and there.

[Frits Overmars]

Yes, that's pretty much what Blair said when he was here. Refer my earlier comment about the chamber being a sheet of paper with 4 recesses. We had an interesting chat about 5 valve heads - he'd just come from doing some work in japan - and agreed they were crap, LOL. Is squish - or for that matter, chamber shape, relevant if you can initiate HCCI ?Squish won't be required for flame spreading; maybe it can help homogenizing the mixture at the last minute.
I'd say chamber shape could return to the old ideal of minimal surface area.

[Ocean1]

321101
Top view of a Formula 1 piston. The head looks the same, only mirrored: all cluttered up with valves. There's barely room for a spark plug, so forget a second piston in the head.

So move the spark plug down.

It's not like we're talking much volume...

Edit: I guess it's only worth pursuing if there's enough benefit in controlling ignition independently of crank rotation. Given the speed of HCCI combustion tdc might be OK across enough of the rev range to work just fine.

[Grumph]

So move the spark plug down.

It's not like we're talking much volume...

Edit: I guess it's only worth pursuing if there's enough benefit in controlling ignition independently of crank rotation. Given the speed of HCCI combustion tdc might be OK across enough of the rev range to work just fine.

If we could see current F1 motors clearly we'd see if for instance they have side plugs. In a 4V head there are only 3 possible places to put the sparklers - the sides - or ends of the pent roof chamber - or in the middle. If it could be seen they use side plugs it could possibly infer there's something in the center of the chamber. Given the FIM supplied software they have to use and it's fixed RPM limit, turning the ignition off - as a rev limiter would do - when they're sure HCCI has started would allow bypassing the max revs allowed...

[Ocean1]

If we could see current F1 motors clearly we'd see if for instance they have side plugs. In a 4V head there are only 3 possible places to put the sparklers - the sides - or ends of the pent roof chamber - or in the middle. If it could be seen they use side plugs it could possibly infer there's something in the center of the chamber. Given the FIM supplied software they have to use and it's fixed RPM limit, turning the ignition off - as a rev limiter would do - when they're sure HCCI has started would allow bypassing the max revs allowed...

Which, if correct infers a compression ratio suitable for HCCI even when the mixture is fired normally. What happens if the magic compression rate occurs before the normal combustion propagation process finished? If they're running anywhere close to HCCI pressures then the normal combustion event must increase pressures over that at some point during the burn.

Which means there may be an incremental change from normal combustion to HCCI... Anyone got a good sound clip from on board a modern F1?

[Haufen]

Injection position should be central on the current Ferrari F1 engine, if they use the prechamber direct injection system (http://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/mahle-powertrain/mahle-powertrain-projects/mahle-jet-ignition/) as stated here (https://motorsportsnewswire.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/mahle-expands-cooperation-with-scuderia-ferrari-0414167/)

The Mercedes F1 engine is using HCCI from what I heard, but only to save fuel during safety car phases etc, not for peak performance.

[breezy]

Maybe it would work if the insert thingie was a flintstone :p

Fred or Wilma?

[Frits Overmars]

Maybe it would work if the insert thingie was a flintstone :p
Fred or Wilma?Pebbles
321122

[Frits Overmars]

If we could see current F1 motors clearly we'd see if for instance they have side plugs.You'd not only have to see them, you'd have to take'm apart.
321123321124321125


Given the FIM supplied software they have to use and it's fixed RPM limit, turning the ignition off - as a rev limiter would do - when they're sure HCCI has started would allow bypassing the max revs allowed...Do you believe for one second that the competition would let that pass? Sound analysis would easily reveal the true revs.

[Grumph]

Do you believe for one second that the competition would let that pass? Sound analysis would easily reveal the true revs.

Oh, certainly, agreed. But just how do you throttle an engine running on HCCI ? I'm sure Neil would love any pointers you may have observed first hand...

[Frits Overmars]

Oh, certainly, agreed. But just how do you throttle an engine running on HCCI ? I'm sure Neil would love any pointers you may have observed first hand...Starve it. Of both air and fuel. And make sure there are no puddles of any combustible liquid anywhere in the engine; Neil experienced that first hand :D.

[Flettner]

Which, if correct infers a compression ratio suitable for HCCI even when the mixture is fired normally. What happens if the magic compression rate occurs before the normal combustion propagation process finished? If they're running anywhere close to HCCI pressures then the normal combustion event must increase pressures over that at some point during the burn.

Which means there may be an incremental change from normal combustion to HCCI... Anyone got a good sound clip from on board a modern F1?

Gee, I turn the computer off for a few days and I miss out on all the good stuff:eek:
I thought I wrote it on this thread, perhaps not, but all you would need to do to get HCCI in a turbo engine is trap back some exhaust gas either don't allow all the hot exhaust out or via turbo control (high back pressure) (and cam timing) push some exhaust gas back in on the induction stroke. With the super ECU controled turbo's now I'm sure this would be possible, I guess via a knock sensors and/or cylinder pressure tansducers. But yes, not a full throttle thing I don't think?
HCCI can be tripped off by either just high comp or lower comp and recycled trapped exhaust gases, I think this is the true traditional way.

Drew, thank you, knocked at the door, no one home, so uplifted the DT, will do the job nicely. :niceone:

Lucky find number two, made a bit of a cock up on the sleeve engine, the drawings are a little obscure on this, (what #%&^&* drawings :facepalm:) so it would seem the 250T twostrke clutch won't fit. But as luck as luck would have it, a 250F clutch almost fits (my machine shop says it will) so now I can go ahead and build the clutch case pattern, including the water pump. It's been a good weekend.

[Drew]

.

Drew, thank you, knocked at the door, no one home, so uplifted the DT, will do the job nicely. :niceone:
No stress man. 24 box was excessive for a rooted lump of scrap, will have to hook you up if we ever get our bucket chair to a track and we meet.

[Flettner]

No stress man. 24 box was excessive for a rooted lump of scrap, will have to hook you up if we ever get our bucket chair to a track and we meet.

Ha HA, almost drank them myself. The engine will be fit for purpose, thanks again.
I am down in Wellington from time to time and I would like to go out to the Kitoki? track and have a look one race weekend. Must keep an eye on the dates.

[Grumph]

Gee, I turn the computer off for a few days and I miss out on all the good stuff:eek:
I thought I wrote it on this thread, perhaps not, but all you would need to do to get HCCI in a turbo engine is trap back some exhaust gas either don't allow all the hot exhaust out or via turbo control (high back pressure) (and cam timing) push some exhaust gas back in on the induction stroke. With the super ECU controled turbo's now I'm sure this would be possible, I guess via a knock sensors and/or cylinder pressure tansducers. But yes, not a full throttle thing I don't think?
HCCI can be tripped off by either just high comp or lower comp and recycled trapped exhaust gases, I think this is the true traditional way.

You did mention exhaust gas triggering HCCI back a bit. I assumed you were referring to it in uniflow cylinders as the only reference I'd seen was Irving referring to one of Phil Vincent's experiments. Apparently the port layout was such that a spiral column of hot gas remained in the cylinder to ignite the incoming charge. Unexpected and awkward....

[breezy]

Gee, I turn the computer off for a few days and I miss out on all the good stuff:eek:
I thought I wrote it on this thread, perhaps not, but all you would need to do to get HCCI in a turbo engine is trap back some exhaust gas either don't allow all the hot exhaust out or via turbo control (high back pressure) (and cam timing) push some exhaust gas back in on the induction stroke. With the super ECU controled turbo's now I'm sure this would be possible, I guess via a knock sensors and/or cylinder pressure tansducers. But yes, not a full throttle thing I don't think?
HCCI can be tripped off by either just high comp or lower comp and recycled trapped exhaust gases, I think this is the true traditional way.

Drew, thank you, knocked at the door, no one home, so uplifted the DT, will do the job nicely. :niceone:

Lucky find number two, made a bit of a cock up on the sleeve engine, the drawings are a little obscure on this, (what #%&^&* drawings :facepalm:) so it would seem the 250T twostrke clutch won't fit. But as luck as luck would have it, a 250F clutch almost fits (my machine shop says it will) so now I can go ahead and build the clutch case pattern, including the water pump. It's been a good weekend.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245391320_Study_of_the_Effect_of_Spark_Ignition_on _Gasoline_HCCI_Combustion:


four stoke engine i think but si ( spark ignition ) used to initiate hcci.. maybe some rubbish blowdown to contaminate new charge and spark energy to initiate hcci... reading through it says that spark energy doesnt start a flame front in heavily erg charge , only cause heat to help start hcci. my apology's if this has already been posted:facepalm:

[ken seeber]

More slider action: Had a happy morning making swarf doing some manual mill rotary table machining out of crankcase mouth. Had to cos the vertical CNC is tied up on a big job (= survival).
External engine assy is getting there, and as you see it, it is actually devoid of the sliding cylinder waiting on O ring groove machining. Every time you do something, you realize there are lots of other things to be done. Designing on the move I say. :yes:

321258321259321261321262321263

[ken seeber]

One thing I didn’t post yesterday was some more work on the cylinder head insert. When the cylinder is at its highest, corresponding to max power setting, the insert will be well buried into the liner. From the pic, imaging that the liner is 10 mm from the main top face of the insert. In this situation, the cooling wouldn’t be great directly behind the combustion chamber.
So, to improve the situation, there are a series of vertical flutes outside the plug body area. The pic shows the basic coolant path, which is split into two symmetrical paths, one each side of the insert. What is not shown is how this flow is controlled. This will be done by a 3D printed flow guide, this will contain and direct the flow around the insert. Bit of Solidworks coming up next.


321291

[Haufen]

Injection position should be central on the current Ferrari F1 engine, if they use the prechamber direct injection system (http://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/mahle-powertrain/mahle-powertrain-projects/mahle-jet-ignition/) as stated here (https://motorsportsnewswire.wordpress.com/2016/04/14/mahle-expands-cooperation-with-scuderia-ferrari-0414167/)

The Mercedes F1 engine is using HCCI from what I heard, but only to save fuel during safety car phases etc, not for peak performance.


more details on F1technical.net (http://www.f1technical.net/news/20316)

[Frits Overmars]

there are a series of vertical flutes outside the plug body area. The pic shows the basic coolant path, which is split into two symmetrical paths, one each side of the insert. What is not shown is how this flow is controlled. This will be done by a 3D printed flow guide, this will contain and direct the flow around the insert.
321291
That's an M14 plug, isn't it? Switching to an M10 plug might give you room for coolant bores between the plug thread and the three bolts that hold the insert to the head cover.
Here are some pics (granted, from much simpler inserts) that may tickle your brain.
321292321293

[nine-thirtysix]

Just a last comment to the F1 technology: I don't really think that they are running HCCI since they are all fighting against the knock limit. Sometimes they hit the limit followed by immediate engine failure seen from every manufacturer. I think to run HCCI with good power and the traditional control systems they have (no variable compression, no variable valve lift and timing) the engine need to be undestructible.

I think they run the stated before Prechamber Ignition. Mahle has his own interpretation, but Mercedes at least should use a system similar to this:
https://www.dbu.de/inc/phpThumb/phpThumb.php?src=/media/0109080408292714.jpg&w=600

It's a conventional sparkplug with a added finger cap and holes in it. The counterpart is the piston shape. You have a normal DI main injection and short before TDC you inject a little fuel in the piston cavity. When the Finger cap meets the puddle it get squished inside the sparkplug as a well ignitable mixture. The ignition produces a high pressure in the "prechamber" which shoots the flamefront across the main chamber and makes a fast and complete combustion, mixture quality independent.
In theory....

More information can be found in here: https://www.dbu.de/OPAC/ab/DBU-Abschlussbericht-AZ-22203.pdf
It is written in german, but the pictures alone tell a good story.

Maybe we can use somewhat of it for two strokes...but with the needs of a pipe we don't want a constantly fast combustion. Right..?

[Frits Overmars]

Just a last comment to the F1 technology: I don't really think that they are running HCCI since they are all fighting against the knock limit...
I think to run HCCI with good power and the traditional control systems they have (no variable compression, no variable valve lift and timing) the engine need to be undestructible.Not necessarily. If you can control HCCI so it doesn't happen before TDC, it won't destroy the engine. And the F1 boys do have several control options.
Their compression ratio may be fixed but their compression pressure isn't. And they are also free to play with exhaust gas recirculation.


...but with the needs of a pipe we don't want a constantly fast combustion. Right..?We always want a fast combustion; it will limit heat losses and NOx-forming. For two-stroke exhaust pipes we may also want exhaust gas that hasn't already lost all of its energy in the expansion phase, but we can easily control that, as we are doing right now, by delaying the start of combustion.
Fast combustion will have the added advantage that we can ignite even later, making sure that we won't have any combustion pressure on the piston before TDC.

[Flettner]

Dragged the old Bighorn out to do a Vinduro yeaterday, new piston, battery, clean out the fuel system as it has been sitting a while, changed back to the trail bike gearbox (close ratio not needed) widened the exhaust port and reshaped a bit (from what I've learn't on ESE) and WOW we have an engine that's just too much. Thankfully the EFI and variable rotary valve housing make it sooo rideable in the low rpm's, it's a tractor and a road racer all in one, love those straight forest roads! I haven't had so much fun in a long time:laugh:

[andrew a]

Hi Neil this is probably the wrong place for this but I don't keep up with the ESE thread. What happened to the Ryger. Dose it work? has it won anything?

[Flettner]

The Ryger, not sure anyone knows whats happened, although it would seem someone opened their mouth too early on in development. It does have something special going on but also can't stay together for long. The Ryger team are away at a secret location at this moment, changing the laws of physics to suit themselves.
It's a neat idea and has potential but needs a lot more work yet. I think some of the proposals we put up might be more workable but good on Ryger for getting us thinking!

[breezy]

The Ryger, not sure anyone knows whats happened, although it would seem someone opened their mouth too early on in development. It does have something special going on but also can't stay together for long. The Ryger team are away at a secret location at this moment, changing the laws of physics to suit themselves.
It's a neat idea and has potential but needs a lot more work yet. I think some of the proposals we put up might be more workable but good on Ryger for getting us thinking!

maybe they need one of your linear crank set ups?:cool:

[WilDun]

Most well thought out things (within reason) will work eventually with hard work and enthusiasm ...... also with time and money of course, but it can't be rushed or talked about too much - or even be suggested as a breakthrough.
Once the general public get a sniff of it, then the pressure will be on - I'd say give it a chance, however I feel that if it does reappear, it will be quite different in some areas!
:yes:

BTW Neil, pleased to hear that the (ex) Bighorn has been reborn and that it is almost too much for you to handle - maybe you need an apprentice on that, as well as in your workshop?
I reckon that's a good example of painstaking development, one step at a time over the years!

[Flettner]

Most well thought out things (within reason) will work eventually with hard work and enthusiasm ...... also with time and money of course, but it can't be rushed or talked about too much - or even be suggested as a breakthrough.
Once the general public get a sniff of it, then the pressure will be on - I'd say give it a chance, however I feel that if it does reappear, it will be quite different in some areas!
:yes:

BTW Neil, pleased to hear that the (ex) Bighorn has been reborn and that it is almost too much for you to handle - maybe you need an apprentice on that, as well as in your workshop?
I reckon that's a good example of painstaking development, one step at a time over the years!

Will, good to see you back.
Yes the Bighorn, painstaking or just pain! It is good to have the old bugger up and running again, so many things to look at when developing I totaly forgot to check the ignition, all sorted now. Although it has brought with it new problems, now I fell I need to get in and finish the reverse cylinder EFI 360.
https://scontent-syd1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13178718_977981868989695_8519495882736945203_n.jpg ?oh=6ac8323a9d265dd0da50cc9aa6535225&oe=57A5A1E6

[WilDun]

Just starting to think about getting the furnace into action again - missed out on the great summer we had (been crook throughout the summer with hardly any inclination to work at all) and now no doubt I'll be restricted by the shitty weather about to happen!
Hope to start off by making a proper lid for the furnace and read up and revise Flettner's methods again till I can do it all without fear of the unknown :shit:.
Here's hoping anyway!

Where do all you enterprising foundry guys stand in your quest for greater two stroke performance these days? - found other forums?

[Flettner]

Will, my foundry has been packed away for the moment, I'm too busy at work.
But I have managed to spend the last few Saturdays gyro flying (a tandem, ELA) had forgotten how much fun it is, it's been sooo long.
So thought I was ready to fly the Autoflight 700 twin but on inspection it seems the nickasil has pealed. These development cylinders have been around a while and seen some action (holed pistons etc) and they are made of CC601, dosen't plate so well. It was only a prototype anyway so I've caned it. I have a spare Heat Ranger engine (a mark two if you will) that is quite servicable, I'll prepare that engine. All cylinders I've cast after these first two are LM13 and plate very well, we live and learn!
These new engines have a cast lug above the exhaust port to accept a power valve blade, the exhaust timing is a little higher also at around 180 degrees. The Ignitech will run the power valves no problem, I'm leaving the exhaust eye ports (lower timing than the main port) free with no valves. Wobbly tells me this should work alright. Not that I need it but 100 ish HP might not be out of the question. It's been a long hard road to get these 700's a flyable engine.
Anyway that's my story.

[WilDun]

Will, my foundry has been packed away for the moment, I'm too busy at work.
It's been a long hard road to get these 700's a flyable engine.

Sounds good - I'm intrigued by the fact that LM13 is good for plating - I'm told that it's a good alloy for casting too. Often I've had to machine the stuff and I found it difficult to do, but then it's probably easier to do now with the modern machinery etc.
So do you get your plating done here in NZ? - is it done straight on the LM13?

[Flettner]

Sounds good - I'm intrigued by the fact that LM13 is good for plating - I'm told that it's a good alloy for casting too. Often I've had to machine the stuff and I found it difficult to do, but then it's probably easier to do now with the modern machinery etc.
So do you get your plating done here in NZ? - is it done straight on the LM13?

Yes the high silicon content in LM13 is hard on tooling but worth the effort as it's so much better to plate and less growth (distortion) with heat.
I get my cylinders done at NZ Cylinders in NZ, good work, fast turn around and they know what they are talking about something you don't often get these days.

[WilDun]

Yes the high silicon content in LM13 is hard on tooling but worth the effort as it's so much better to plate and less growth (distortion) with heat.
I get my cylinders done at NZ Cylinders in NZ, good work, fast turn around and they know what they are talking about something you don't often get these days.

Don't suppose you'd be willing to disclose approximately how much it would cost to have say a couple of small cylinders done?
Maybe I missed it, but what sort of lubrication do you use, pump or mixture .... or both? - it's always a bit of a worry if someone (especially a flyer) puts the wrong mixture in the tank I guess.

[Grumph]

Don't suppose you'd be willing to disclose approximately how much it would cost to have say a couple of small cylinders done?
Maybe I missed it, but what sort of lubrication do you use (pump or mixture .... or both) - it's always a bit of a worry if someone puts the wrong mixture in the tank I guess.

NZ Cylinders in Ashburton are very approachable and seem happy to give an estimate too. They're down the road from me - about 1 3/4 hours down the road - and i've been in there a couple of times. Used them to diamond hone a marked nicasil barrel recently.
They asked me if I knew this guy Neil who kept sending them weird stuff.....

[Flettner]

NZ Cylinders in Ashburton are very approachable and seem happy to give an estimate too. They're down the road from me - about 1 3/4 hours down the road - and i've been in there a couple of times. Used them to diamond hone a marked nicasil barrel recently.
They asked me if I knew this guy Neil who kept sending them weird stuff.....

Who? weird Neil? Perhaps, but at least I'm certified:laugh:
Cost of cylinders? Priceless to cast and machine (wouldn't have a clue) but nicasil? You would have to ring them (Grant), they are not too bad price wise.
Grumph, who would you use in Christchurch to do castings for you, I want best quality and of coarse to pay nothing:msn-wink: Production gearbox castings for our PSRU's (prop speed reduction units). I'm getting them done in Auckland at the moment, rough AND expensive :shit: But I have to say they are at least sound casting.

[Grumph]

Who? weird Neil? Perhaps, but at least I'm certified:laugh:
Cost of cylinders? Priceless to cast and machine (wouldn't have a clue) but nicasil? You would have to ring them (Grant), they are not too bad price wise.
Grumph, who would you use in Christchurch to do castings for you, I want best quality and of coarse to pay nothing:msn-wink: Production gearbox castings for our PSRU's (prop speed reduction units). I'm getting them done in Auckland at the moment, rough AND expensive :shit: But I have to say they are at least sound casting.

ChCh foundries have just about died out. I hear good things about the one in Rangiora but haven't used them. The work I have seen and admired is the foundry in Nelson who do TT Industries work. They did quite a bit for Bob Densem and Colin Lyster too. I aimed Husa at them but i think they were too dear for him..They're casting gearbox shells and covers as well as - I hear - investment casting shift forks for the range of bike and car gearboxes.

Another thought - do you do anything for or with Pegasus engineering here ? They were doing prototyping for a small aero engine - basically half a VW.
They were getting cases and reduction boxes cast somewhere here so may well be worth asking.

[Frits Overmars]

Who? weird Neil? Perhaps, but at least I'm certified:laugh:321860. . . . .

[andrew a]

321860. . . . .

That is Gold!

[ken seeber]

Back to some real foundry stuff. Have a look at this:

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.pit-lane.biz/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpitlane%2Bbiz%26biw%3D1335%26bih%3D81 7

[Lightbulb]

What were you ment to be sharing with us Ken, the link just went to google translate page.
Neil

[Flettner]

Ken, are you referring to the piece by Luc F on combustion and HCCI?

[ken seeber]

Not sure what I did wrong, but try this:

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5697-2-stroke-et-celui-la-astier

If it stuffs up, then go to pitlane and then "[2 stroke] And the one?" on the LHS rolling topics listing

A sort of a French Fletto

[Flettner]

Not sure what I did wrong, but try this:

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t5697-2-stroke-et-celui-la-astier

If it stuffs up, then go to pitlane and then "[2 stroke] And the one?" on the LHS rolling topics listing

A sort of a French Fletto

Look at that, a bit of good old fashioned patternmaking, good to see.

[WilDun]

Look at that, a bit of good old fashioned patternmaking, good to see.

Yes Ken I like those examples too, it all sort of seems to be more achievable to me in the home workshop situation than all the hi tech stuff (not that there's anything wrong with that of course) ..........If only I could get my ass into gear again! :rolleyes:

[polinizei]

Little update from the kids corner.
Each fin took about 6 hours to print.

322043322044322045322046322047322048

[polinizei]

322049322050322051322052322053

[Ocean1]

Little update from the kids corner.
Each fin took about 6 hours to print.

I love your surface table.

[WilDun]

Little update from the kids corner.
Each fin took about 6 hours to print.

Did you mean each fin or each half pattern? (I'm not familiar with printers and how long they take).
Those attached risers you are using are huge!

[ken seeber]

[QUOTE=polinizei;1130975626]Little update from the kids corner.
Each fin took about 6 hours to print.
QUOTE]
Nice, good to see the junior helping. He'll be telling you how to do it in a few more years .;)

Now question time.

1. You posted this on P105 http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/23/973875c7fc848918fc8dcb62e1a3f26d.jpg Was this a computer render or an actual pattern?
2. Have you gone to an SLA printer rather than the FDM?
3. Are the transfer & exh passage coreboxes you previously posted to be used in conjunction with this cylinder?

Otherwise excellent stuff.

[polinizei]

Did you mean each fin or each half pattern? (I'm not familiar with printers and how long they take).
Those attached risers you are using are huge!


I mean Each half fin. Its a "slow" process.
I tried a risky printing job to save time and work. But I lost the 48h job a 95%...322122322123322124322125322126

[polinizei]

[QUOTE=polinizei;1130975626]Little update from the kids corner.
Each fin took about 6 hours to print.
QUOTE]
Nice, good to see the junior helping. He'll be telling you how to do it in a few more years .;)


Now question time.

1. You posted this on P105 http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/23/973875c7fc848918fc8dcb62e1a3f26d.jpg Was this a computer render or an actual pattern?
its a


2. Have you gone to an SLA printer rather than the FDM?




3. Are the transfer & exh passage coreboxes you previously posted to be used in conjunction with this cylinder?



Otherwise excellent stuff.


:-)
This is a older render.
I only work with my zortrax printer.
The previously posted corebox are for this cylinder, but I need to reprint them in case of layout changes.

[ken seeber]

Slider cylinder. Still waiting on the cylinder machining, so chucked it on a go kart to see how it might fit. Note that this is not the actual kart we might use (assuming the thing is a goer), but it gives some idea of the packaging issues. 2 options wrt the cylinder orientation:
1. Two exhaust outlets forward. If we go this way, it'll mean a tight bend of the exhaust header adjacent to the seat, but the other two exhausts are not too bad, with just lesser bends in the headers.
2. One exh forward. Possibly means bends in the divergent cone and possible carburettor/airbox clash issues.
As the thing is bi, it can easily be turned either way. I think I can hold off making this call until the thing is a bit more complete.

322269322268

[Grumph]

Either way round you're going to have to call it the Tall Boy...

I can't remember, do CIK regs say the pipe must finish behind the seat ?

[husaberg]

Slider cylinder. Still waiting on the cylinder machining, so chucked it on a go kart to see how it might fit. Note that this is not the actual kart we might use (assuming the thing is a goer), but it gives some idea of the packaging issues. 2 options wrt the cylinder orientation:
1. Two exhaust outlets forward. If we go this way, it'll mean a tight bend of the exhaust header adjacent to the seat, but the other two exhausts are not too bad, with just lesser bends in the headers.
2. One exh forward. Possibly means bends in the divergent cone and possible carburettor/airbox clash issues.
As the thing is bi, it can easily be turned either way. I think I can hold off making this call until the thing is a bit more complete.

322269322268

With that ex you should call it the Woody

[Frits Overmars]

With that ex you should call it the WoodyCould it have escaped your attention that the picture needs 90° clockwise rotation Husa? That would turn your woody into a droopy.
I'd go for the droopy (one pipe straight forward) and the carburettor behind the crankcase.

[husaberg]

Could it have escaped your attention that the picture needs 90° clockwise rotation Husa? That would turn your woody into a droopy.
I'd go for the droopy (one pipe straight forward) and the carburettor behind the crankcase.

Oh Frits, I only sneaked a peek us kiwis, try not to look (too hard):msn-wink:
Did you see the Bantam Arrow 4?

[Frits Overmars]

Yes I did; I'm still recovering from it. Jolly good job and all that, but why would anyone want to turn a decent RG500 engine into an aircooled disaster, waiting to seize?

[WilDun]

Yes I did; I'm still recovering from it. Jolly good job and all that, but why would anyone want to turn a decent RG500 engine into an aircooled disaster, waiting to seize?

Provokes anticipation of the inevitable and therefore gets a lot of attention from those who are wondering just how long it will take to happen (attention is what it's all about!).

[husaberg]

Yes I did; I'm still recovering from it. Jolly good job and all that, but why would anyone want to turn a decent RG500 engine into an aircooled disaster, waiting to seize?

Pretty sure those cylinders on the Arrow/Leader were cast iron as well.
I guess if he has money in England he's just actually eccentric rather than mad.
It actually made me giggle.
I was going to post the kiwi CB550 powered Vespa, plus the pommy RD350LC powered Vespa. But I think the Square Four Ariel Two stroke/ Bantam wins hands down.

[Flettner]

Pretty sure those cylinders on the Arrow/Leader were cast iron as well.
I guess if he has money in England he's just actually eccentric rather than mad.
It actually made me giggle.
I was going to post the kiwi CB550 powered Vespa, plus the pommy RD350LC powered Vespa. But I think the Square Four Ariel Two stroke/ Bantam wins hands down.

NO, nothing beats the Kawasaki tripple scooter (lambreta/Vespa/Rabbit?)one year at the Shell Two Wheeler scooter race, 500 I think. Chambers stuck out so low that the guy riding it couldn't go around the corners:lol:, he kept going off into the sand, stop, turn it / aim it, pull the trigger, then off to the next corner. Fast though in a straight line. Still amusing after all these years. I think it tosted the chain on the last lap in the end?

[WilDun]

NO, nothing beats the Kawasaki tripple scooter (lambreta/Vespa/Rabbit?)one year at the Shell Two Wheeler scooter race,

:killingme - I don't think the "Bantam" will ever get to that stage!

Yes, the Arrows had cast iron cylinders with two puny transfer passages which were not big enough to poke your little finger into - you wonder why they couldn't have been made in ally as I'm sure they would have been much cheaper to cast than in iron, even with cast iron liners!

[Grumph]

:killingme - I don't think the "Bantam" will ever get to that stage!

Yes, the Arrows had cast iron cylinders with two puny transfer passages which were not big enough to poke your little finger into - you wonder why they couldn't have been made in ally as I'm sure they would have been much cheaper to cast than in iron, even with cast iron liners!

The Arrow/Leader design had two counts against it from the start - it was a 2 stroke, and Ariel didn't "do" 2 strokes, lot of opposition from management to putting it into production. And when it won bike of the year for I think 3 years running they still hated it...

And of course it was made in Birmingham - spiritual home of the blast furnace and cast iron....

[WilDun]

The Arrow/Leader design had two counts against it from the start - it was a 2 stroke, and Ariel didn't "do" 2 strokes, lot of opposition from management to putting it into production. And when it won bike of the year for I think 3 years running they still hated it...

And of course it was made in Birmingham - spiritual home of the blast furnace and cast iron....

More than two things were wrong with it, it had 16" wheels which made it ground the footrests very easily, making it impossible to take advantage of the excellent handling it was capable of.
It was also a bit heavy and not very powerful for the times, 4 speed box, chain primary drive.
This was a crappy effort to put an overall revolutionary concept on the road.
All these things could have been easily sorted with a little effort of course but I think Ariel was already on it's knees by the time it came out.
I had a Leader and two Arrows, they had a lovely feel to them and I did hope to get one going very fast ....... then the Suzuki T20 came out - it handled like a wet sausage, but it was fast (for the times)and it signalled the end of the Arrow, end of story.

........maybe I should have put a T20 engine in my Arrow frame .........

[TZ350]

Small world, I have a whole stack of Arrow engine parts under the bench ..... :laugh:

[WilDun]

Small world, I have a whole stack of Arrow engine parts under the bench ..... :laugh:

TZ, I think that if you have the time and you don't want to race buckets anymore, (if that could ever happen!) you should build a new (similar) lightweight Arrow - alloy copy of that sheetmetal frame and forks maybe?? with a much revised all alloy engine/gearbox etc. using today's technology - just to show what Ariel should have been considering doing all those years ago. :yes:

BTW, looks like the "Bucket Foundry" thread and the "Oddball Engines and Prototypes" thread have become a bit intertwined - but there you go!

[TZ350]

I was once thinking of making a classic racer. To get around the limitations of the 4 speed box I was going to replace the Arrows primary drive with a CVT and fit period a TLS front brake and 17" rims for a better choice of tires. There was some resistance to the CVT being all modern and that but there was CVT scooters back in the 60's so CVT is all period legal. But it was impressed on me that classics was about riding old bikes not about clever ideas and making hot shoe racers so I lost interest.

[ken seeber]

I just happen to have a CVT tranny for a DKW Hobby scooter (circa 1955) if anyone wants it.

[TZ350]

322292

1955 Hobby Scooter Transmission.

[Grumph]

I was once thinking of making a classic racer. To get around the limitations of the 4 speed box I was going to replace the Arrows primary drive with a CVT and fit period a TLS front brake and 17" rims for a better choice of tires. There was some resistance to the CVT being all modern and that but there was CVT scooters back in the 60's so CVT is all period legal. But it was impressed on me that classics was about riding old bikes not about clever ideas and making hot shoe racers so I lost interest.

You were fed the register party line. Go to any of their meetings and you'll see reality. Modern manxes etc....

There's been at least one maximum Arrow built and run in the Register - 6 speed box and a Wob motor i think too.

[Drew]

I was once thinking of making a classic racer. To get around the limitations of the 4 speed box I was going to replace the Arrows primary drive with a CVT and fit period a TLS front brake and 17" rims for a better choice of tires. There was some resistance to the CVT being all modern and that but there was CVT scooters back in the 60's so CVT is all period legal. But it was impressed on me that classics was about riding old bikes not about clever ideas and making hot shoe racers so I lost interest.
Guess nobody pointed out the 6 speed Nortons then.

[TZ350]

It was Ok for me to fit an expensive aftermarket 6 speed box, they understood that approach. But I was discouraged from thinking further outside the box.

[Drew]

It was Ok for me to fit an expensive aftermarket 6 speed box, they understood that approach. But I was discouraged from thinking further outside the box.

I'm told the classics guys can be total dicks and complete hypocrites with what they think is allowed. The classic chair scene is fucken hard work.

[Flettner]

Same as classic MX I guess. You just have to hide it all inside and avoid answering questions. And don't make the win too devastating and avoid eye contact:bleh:

[WilDun]

As long as there humans around, rules will be broken! (anyway it's bloody good fun).

Talking about 6 speed Manxes, I can remember one (Schafleitner) fitted to an American guy's Manx Norton, possibly around 1963? at the NW 200, ie when the Manxes were still mainstream.
BTW the way in the race he got a little over ambitious about his riding ability, missed his braking point, ending up in Portstewart Harbour and becoming a paraplegic.

TZ - I always liked the Arrows despite their shortcomings and always thought that they could be completely modernised, still look unique and be great handling machines (that frame was a great concept really) - the forks could probably be lightened too (they did seem to work well).
The brakes? - well, they might need some upgrading!

Ken, - great minds think alike, I also had a DKW Hobby and was considering putting it's transmission in something else!
Unfortunately I did a lot of considering and not enough achieving!

Sorry to take up the precious time and space dribbling on. :rolleyes:

[Grumph]

It's relevant Will...there's no point in casting something up unless you've read the rules first to find out if you can use it when it's done....

The existence of a handful of Schafleitner 6 speed boxes pre December 1963 is taken as the precedent for allowing them in bikes of that period.
So it's find the precedent and use it as the leverage point....

[WilDun]

It's relevant Will...there's no point in casting something up unless you've read the rules first to find out if you can use it when it's done.....

Yes, it's the old story, either you belong to a group and find a lot of happiness there following the rules to a tee, or be out in the cold making your own rules - it depends on the sort of person you are I guess, but both scenarios have their merits and unfortunately rules do tend to stymie development somewhat, but has development really got any place in classics? - probably not.

I always think it would be interesting just to find out for yourself just how much development would have actually been possible with some promising designs, such as the the Arrow etc. - many motorcycle manufacturers, not only Ariel, were less than enthusiastic about doing that.

It would seem that Villiers (who didn't care a lot about racing) actually were the first to stumble on the use of multiple transfer ports, they did it to get some more transfer volume on their twins which had closely spaced cylinders.
Ariel should have done the same with the Arrow! - Yamaha got the message and latched on very quickly!

[husaberg]

Not foundry but cool anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEnNMTMZadw

[Flettner]

That's old Simpson from Tokaroa airfeild, how about that, interesting.

[Grumph]

That's old Simpson from Tokaroa airfeild, how about that, interesting.

I'd never heard of him till I read the Wiki link Husa put up on ESE...but I immediately thought "I bet Neil knows him"....

[husaberg]

I'd never heard of him till I read the Wiki link Husa put up on ESE...but I immediately thought "I bet Neil knows him"....

It wasn't husa that linked the wiki it was Ocean, we had posted about him quite a few years ago on ese too.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130181225#post1130181225

He was on junk yard wars and on mythbusters as a expert on rockets.
The yanks never really like the idea of a $500 cruise missile, not just because they would end up aimed at them but because they end up selling less 20 million dollar ones.

[Flettner]

It wasn't husa that linked the wiki it was Ocean, we had posted about him quite a few years ago on ese too.
He was on junk yard wars and on mythbusters as a expert on rockets.
The yanks never really like the idea of a $500 cruise missile, not just because they would end up aimed at them but because they end up selling less 20 million dollar ones.


Well there is a story that goes with this, some years ago (true apparently) Bruce was approached by an off shore buyer for his pules jet engines. An Arab group, so Bruce contacts the NZ trade embassy to see if there is no problem selling these engines to the Arabs. It seems the NZ trade people contacted the US embassy to see if there would be a problem.
The next morning as Bruce unlocks his shed door he noticed a big black SUV parked near, two guys dressed in black suits appeared out of the morning darkness (Bruce said wearing dark glasses too), pulled their lapels back to display a pair of large hand guns. The story goes that the conversation went along the lines of 'Bad things will happen if you continue to entertain ideas of exporting your engines to Arab states' Bruce was suitably encouraged to drop the idea. I kid you not.

Probably already told this one on ESE.

[Flettner]

So what's happening, where is all the foundry stuff. Winter is a good time for casting appart from the rain in our out doors foundry's.
I've got patterns underway to do some casting soon but have no camera any more, dropped and broke. Mostly a clutch cover, flywheel cover, new cases to accept the crank within the crank, crankshaft and a new slider cylinder. I guess I'll just have to get another cell phone, hate the bloody things, not very robust are they. I need a cast iron one.

[WilDun]

So what's happening, where is all the foundry stuff. Winter is a good time for casting appart from the rain in our out doors foundry's.
I've got patterns underway to do some casting soon but have no camera any more, dropped and broke.

What you need is a permanently mounted remote controlled camera up on the wall somewhere - I mean how can this thread survive without a 'Flettner' foundry input?

I have contributed some pretty mundane low end stuff, but this has been more or less shelved of late because of health (but will try again soon).
The American stuff (from Michael Moore & co) is good, there's some good input from Europe and of course from Ken in Aus.
It's all a bit sporadic really, but interesting when it does turn up.

I think that there are a lot of Kiwis, although interested, won't ever go as far as trying it (ie metal melting and casting) and I think that is quite surprising given that Kiwis are prone to experimenting (No 8 wire mentality and all that) and the fact that the smaller foundries are shutting down all the time.

We haven't heard much from (Mike T?) for some time either. ie the guy who made the steam powered bike and who is having a go at building a steam powered aircraft.
I thought all his stuff was pretty interesting and he is into casting his own stuff as well, - must be too busy or has found another forum!

And then there's Yow Ling, who started it all off!

BTW Husa, I was impressed by the video on making of the reed valve petals, might be good to try. - I'm sure that the guy who was making them is no stranger to controversy - I think it may have been him who was having a tussle with the 'powers that be' at Tokoroa airfield over the use of model aircraft - Flettner do you anything know about that?

Then again, as usual I could be wrong!

[Grumph]

So what's happening, where is all the foundry stuff. Winter is a good time for casting appart from the rain in our out doors foundry's.
I've got patterns underway to do some casting soon but have no camera any more, dropped and broke. Mostly a clutch cover, flywheel cover, new cases to accept the crank within the crank, crankshaft and a new slider cylinder. I guess I'll just have to get another cell phone, hate the bloody things, not very robust are they. I need a cast iron one.

You don't need a cast iron one. You'd just break your toes....What you need is a phone like the calculator i have. Rubber...It's completely flexible, you can just about tie it in knots. Kids toy of course but it works well. Probably no reason a phone couldn't be done the same.

[Flettner]

Yes Will I know both sides, Bruce and Hank, the guy thats wanted the models gone. I sold Hank a gyrocopter some years ago, he crashed it twice, nervous flyer, so he is not too happy sharing the airspace with model aeroplanes. The gyro is long sold (after it's second rebuild) but he now has a modern fast little microlite. Hasn't crashed that yet. Hank and Bruce were in bussiness together at one point but that soured, don't know why. Hanks old gyro is now in Wanganui (H?) still flying but now with a turbocharger attached, approx 160HP. Each to their own.

[husaberg]

Well there is a story that goes with this, some years ago (true apparently) Bruce was approached by an off shore buyer for his pules jet engines. An Arab group, so Bruce contacts the NZ trade embassy to see if there is no problem selling these engines to the Arabs. It seems the NZ trade people contacted the US embassy to see if there would be a problem.
The next morning as Bruce unlocks his shed door he noticed a big black SUV parked near, two guys dressed in black suits appeared out of the morning darkness (Bruce said wearing dark glasses too), pulled their lapels back to display a pair of large hand guns. The story goes that the conversation went along the lines of 'Bad things will happen if you continue to entertain ideas of exporting your engines to Arab states' Bruce was suitably encouraged to drop the idea. I kid you not.

Probably already told this one on ESE.
I don't doubt it for a second.
There was a kiwi who invented a submarine compass during WW2 (ie worked surrounded by metal)he was locked away during the war on sommes island to work on what was described as a "death ray" but actually was more likely radar.
He never got paid for the compass either, despite becoming standard issue for the RN
https://booksellersnz.wordpress.com/tag/victor-penny/
http://www.no8rewired.kiwi/nz-inventions/death-ray/

Some more of Bruce
http://aardvark.co.nz/pjet/scrapheap.shtml

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPrZ5J9nk-4

[WilDun]

Some more of Bruce

Very entertaining (the video) - think that Bruce is a 'never say die' type of guy - I'd be a bit worried if he was the opposition and not on my side in an argument!
Bet he'd have one or two ideas on how to construct a burner for a furnace!

[TZ350]

Well there is a story that goes with this, some years ago (true apparently) Bruce was approached by an off shore buyer for his pules jet engines. An Arab group, so Bruce contacts the NZ trade embassy to see if there is no problem selling these engines to the Arabs. It seems the NZ trade people contacted the US embassy to see if there would be a problem.

The next morning as Bruce unlocks his shed door he noticed a big black SUV parked near, two guys dressed in black suits appeared out of the morning darkness (Bruce said wearing dark glasses too), pulled their lapels back to display a pair of large hand guns. The story goes that the conversation went along the lines of 'Bad things will happen if you continue to entertain ideas of exporting your engines to Arab states' Bruce was suitably encouraged to drop the idea. I kid you not.

I remember this, talked about a bit in the media at the time.

[Flettner]

Patternmaking is therapy, especially using bits of wood from old things that would otherwise be thrown out, I like that. Mum's old ironing board, best use for it. What good is an ironing board anyway? I'm not sure I've ever seen one used. With wood and bondi, there are no mistakes just continual refinements. :mellow:

[ken seeber]

Slider update. Well old mate did a trial O ring groove machining. Looks ok. Other than the fact that he used a ball end cutter rather than a flat bottomed tool. Also scabbed a reed block and carb adapter. Getting there, but these things seem to take a lot of time to get done. Not all though, as this aging process seems pretty snappy.

322409322410

[Flettner]

Ken, good, I was just about to say, send the cylinder back to me and I'll cut the oval / circular o ring groove on my new milling machine attachment just made to do this very job. I'm am so convinced that this is a good idea I've decided to make this o ring groove attachment as there will be a few to do in the future I think. Not just FOS, I think this will work great also on a stanadard cylinder but we are yet to see.

[Michael Moore]

A guy in Sweden just posted some info on Alloy Avenue about 3D printed patterns /castings for a new turbine engine for his LSR bike

http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?12285-Sand-casting-with-3D-printed-patterns

The new engine will be about 2X the size of the one he's been running.


Jeff has been busy traveling to the AHRMA nationals in the middle part of the country and I think normal maintenance chores on the bike have kept him from doing anything foundry related (though the F37 cylinders that were cast do seem to be working well).


I'm throwing in the towel on the wooden pattern for the Webco CT-1 replica head. There's waaay too many square inches of fin to seal/sand/seal/sand/seal/sand. Wooden patterns might be OK to deal with for less involved projects but I'm tired of them for this one. Maybe I can revisit the wood fin stock for some future pattern.

So the plan now is to CNC the upper and lower parts of the pattern from machinable wax, pull silcone rubber molds off of those, and then cast urethane patterns (probably from Freeman's Repro One).

There's been a few stumbling blocks along the way.

First, I had a lot of "let's start over again - again" moments with the modeling, but I think I've got a pretty good idea of how to do fins now. :) I can get a basic finned head very quickly, it is all the little details like fillets, adjusting fin locations, filling in between the fins for the spark plug, etc that provide a lot of aggro.

It may be hard to see but the way the Webco head is designed there is a boss on the top section filling between the three center fins for the spark plug. The other flat surfaces at the fin-base level get spot-faced for the cylinder head nuts. The Webco had a truncated-cone plus squish combustion chamber which is pretty deep compared to the more modern hemi+squish I plan on using, but that will just mean countersinking a little deeper for the plug.

Second, is I decided to order a training package for my RhinoCAM software (for the CNC code) because I was not finding it very intuitive with the minimal documentation it comes with. After a couple of weeks the package with the DVD containing the videos and expanded manual arrived -- except when I opened the DVD case it was empty. So instead of spending this weekend studying the material I will have to wait until a replacement arrives (probably Tuesday).

Third, I ordered some tapered ball-end mills on 01 June -- 1/8" nose radius, 2.25" LOC, HSS x 3 flute, in 1, 1.5, 2 and 3 degree/side tapers. I'll be using the 1 degree on these fins to let me finish the gullet at the fin base and the sides of the adjacent fins in one pass. A week after placing the order I followed up to get a tracking number because I'd expected to have received the parts a day or two before. I was told "oh, they won't be able to make those for a week or two". It would have been nice to have been informed of that without needing to prompt them. After another week they are now expected to ship Mon/Tues of this next week. By the time they arrive it will have been close to four weeks since the order was placed. It is a good thing the wax is supposed to cause little to no wear on the cutters, because I'd prefer to not have to order more of them.

On the bright side, with the delays I've had more time to look at my 3D model in Rhino and think about the machining operations and fixturing.

Perhaps by mid-July I'll have some urethane patterns on hand.

cheers,
Michael

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Yamaha/WebcoHeadTopsideRhinoScreenCap.jpg

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/Yamaha/WebcoHeadUndersideRhinoScreenCap.jpg

[WilDun]

So the plan now is to CNC the upper and lower parts of the pattern from machinable wax, pull silcone rubber molds off of those, and then cast urethane patterns (probably from Freeman's Repro One).

I ordered some tapered ball-end mills on 01 June -- 1/8" nose radius, 2.25" LOC, HSS x 3 flute, in 1, 1.5, 2 and 3 degree/side tapers. I'll be using the 1 degree on these fins to let me finish the gullet at the fin base and the sides of the adjacent fins in one pass.
cheers,
Michael

Michael, how will you go about milling the deep fins in wax - are you planning to mill those straight in from the sides, or do it in smaller incremental depths with your tapered cutters?
I just ask because it might be a little difficult because of the thickness (or is it thinness) of each fin and the fragility of the wax - maybe, I'm being a bit neurotic, ie not having tried it myself (but interested in trying it) - just a thought........

[Michael Moore]

WilDun, the fins will be done in incremental steps in the Z axis.

The more stickout of the cutter, the more flex for a given cut and feed. So it looks like the first 3/4" can be done with 1/4" EMs in 2 or 3 passes, while the last ones at 2.25" below are in .015" or so. I'll use regular square end cutters as far as I can since ball end cutters have the middle of the ball with effectively zero motion and probably just mush the material out of the way at the very tip/center of rotation. If you need a radius in the cut many times an EM with a corner radius is a better bet than the ball-end, because it keeps the SFM up. But for some things you can't avoid using a ball-end EM.

I bought some more ER collet chucks and 1/4" EMs in various OAL/LOC. I'll probably have 4-5 different EMs with varying stick-outs before the tapered EM is called into play. Though the final cuts may only be .010-.015" deep, since they'll be cutting nearly full length on the sides that is plenty of load on them.

I bandsawed a slice of wax (roughly .187") off of a block I have. It is not too hard to snap with moderate finger pressure, so I'll try and leave about .005" of stock for the final passes on the sides of the fins. I think the gullets will be the determining factor as that is the hardest bit of cutting due to the problems of no SFM at the tip.

I figure the wax is treated as recyclable after I get a good rubber mold from it If it breaks while being removed, no big deal, it all goes into the "to be re-melted" tub. With a good rubber mold a large number of urethane patterns could be made, though I anticipate making a few heads for my own use and then maybe doing another 5-6 or so to see if I can recoup a little money by selling them to other vintage racers.

That's the problem with vintage racing, there's only so much demand for these parts so you've got to do them for your own use and if you can peddle a few extras, that's all found money (even though you are actually still losing money, you aren't losing quite as much).

cheers,
Michael

[Grumph]

That's the problem with vintage racing, there's only so much demand for these parts so you've got to do them for your own use and if you can peddle a few extras, that's all found money (even though you are actually still losing money, you aren't losing quite as much).

cheers,
Michael

You're not wrong about the economics of vintage racing...I just sold the last Aermacchi replica frame i had hanging round here. That makes 12 made and sold. Which is market saturation....I had a brief talk with Sammy Miller some years back at a Classic meet here in NZ about the replica frame business. we agreed he had a huge advantage in name recognition which meant he would keep selling frame kits as long as he cared to make them.
FWIW, 3 kits to Australia, 2 to Canada, balance here in NZ. More than I originally thought I'd make.

[Flettner]

I figure the wax is treated as recyclable after I get a good rubber mold from it If it breaks while being removed, no big deal, it all goes into the "to be re-melted" tub. With a good rubber mold a large number of urethane patterns could be made, though I anticipate making a few heads for my own use and then maybe doing another 5-6 or so to see if I can recoup a little money by selling them to other vintage racers.

That's the problem with vintage racing, there's only so much demand for these parts so you've got to do them for your own use and if you can peddle a few extras, that's all found money (even though you are actually still losing money, you aren't losing quite as much).

cheers,
Michael

Ha ha ha , recoup costs, yer right.

[ken seeber]

Slider update. Grooves now in cylinder to accept O rings that surround each of the 3 exh ports. As we had to get some laser cutting done, we also did some exh flanged and spring hanger brackets. Little bit of work req'd on cylinder then off for plating.

322480

[Flettner]

Found the wifes old camera, who remembers these beasts, fit for purpose. Saved it from heading off to the scrap yard 20 years ago. fitting the 250F clutch to the 250T gearbox. Clutch cover pattern is under construction, this weekends job to finish it. Water pump will be in the clutch side case run off the ballance shaft, these engine cases are water cooled.

[Michael Moore]

Shapers are cool! I had a Rhodes 9" from the early 1920s but it was just too small for the things I'd want to do (like fitting a good-sized rotary table as in your photo). I've got a lot of shaper info on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/shapers.htm

It is nice to see a shaper being put to work. Most people don't need a shaper, but when you've got a shaper job, you need a shaper.

Nurserys probably need to have shapers, the sound of a shaper peeling off chips should put a baby to sleep for an entire night, they are so soothing/mesmerizing.

cheers,
Michael

[ken seeber]

You blokes are shaping up ok..:banana:

[husaberg]

Found the wifes old camera, who remembers these beasts, fit for purpose. Saved it from heading off to the scrap yard 20 years ago. fitting the 250F clutch to the 250T gearbox. Clutch cover pattern is under construction, this weekends job to finish it. Water pump will be in the clutch side case run off the ballance shaft, these engine cases are water cooled.


Shapers are cool! I had a Rhodes 9" from the early 1920s but it was just too small for the things I'd want to do (like fitting a good-sized rotary table as in your photo). I've got a lot of shaper info on my website:

http://www.eurospares.com/shapers.htm

It is nice to see a shaper being put to work. Most people don't need a shaper, but when you've got a shaper job, you need a shaper.

Nurserys probably need to have shapers, the sound of a shaper peeling off chips should put a baby to sleep for an entire night, they are so soothing/mesmerizing.

cheers,
Michael

I had to google

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omsyy-RiaqU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n60lHUD8US8
Its motion kind of reminds me of something, not sure what:msn-wink:

That's right a Gane milking plant..........
and get ya minds out of the gutter

[Frits Overmars]

Its motion kind of reminds me of something, not sure what:msn-wink:Even dirty minds can suffer from Oldtimer, eh, Alzheimer. Is this what you had in mind Husa? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0odVzSgufjk&feature=youtu.be

[Ocean1]

Its motion kind of reminds me of something, not sure what:msn-wink:

Trade Cert question: How is the motion of a shaping machine generated?

Was supposed to be "With a bull wheel" But most wrote "Hydraulics" because they'd never seen a proper one.

I did my time on a massive Canadian Bertram planer, (tools stay still and the work moves back and fwd on a big table).

Had 4 electromagnetic clapper boxes, two on the bridge uprights and two on a traveling horizontal beam.

The table was driven by an AC driven DC generator connected to a large DC motor driving a pinion driving the table via rack.

You could take a 1/2" x 1/2" cut in SG iron on that thing.

Occasionally the controller would shit itself, much noise, smoke, right behind the driver. Then you got to run, because the table wasn't going to stop at the end of it's stroke...

Table ran on oiled ways, weighed maybe 5 ton. Used to have to get a crane in and cut a hole in the roof to get it back on again. The divots are still there in the floor 45 years later.

[WilDun]

Shapers are cool!
It is nice to see a shaper being put to work. Most people don't need a shaper, but when you've got a shaper job, you need a shaper............. the sound of a shaper peeling off chips should put a baby to sleep for an entire night, they are so soothing/mesmerizing.
cheers,
Michael

Yeah, Michael, I agree with everything you have said about shapers, I never used them much after my apprenticeship classes but they fascinated me!
Bought a small one which I was going to recondition a few years ago but it fell of a plank as I was trying to slide it into my basement workshop through a window - It wouldn't have been so bad if it hadn't used me as a cushion to break the fall! - Eventually I ended up selling it with all my other stuff when I moved house.

Flettner, nice to see your progress, with everything looking very professional and of course it's good to see you still use a shaper - they never really died out - nor should they!

[Flettner]

Yeah, Michael, I agree with everything you have said about shapers, I never used them much after my apprenticeship classes but they fascinated me!
Bought a small one which I was going to recondition a few years ago but it fell of a plank as I was trying to slide it into my basement workshop through a window - It wouldn't have been so bad if it hadn't used me as a cushion to break the fall! - Eventually I ended up selling it with all my other stuff when I moved house.

Flettner, nice to see your progress, with everything looking very professional and of course it's good to see you still use a shaper - they never really died out - nor should they!

Yes the old shaper, handy even if you only use it once every few years:laugh: I've set it up with a feed auto stop micro switch, for facing, but never used it:facepalm: They are the sort of machine that can get wildly out of hand if you are not carefull though:shit:

[WilDun]

Yes the old shaper, They are the sort of machine that can get wildly out of hand if you are not carefull though:shit:

Sort of like the HCCI engines, easy to start, hard to stop ::shit:

[Flettner]

Sunday afternoon sitting in front of the fire, sanding. Clutch side case for the Donkey engine. Pen line around the clutch bump is the real height, I will trim that back at the end. This pattern is mostly just pine, all sides are three degrees although it dosen't look like it in the picture. These things always take longer than you think!

[ken seeber]

Fletto, the roll pins. Did you pitch out the centres on some other plate/board and use this to centre each of the wooden bosses? And also, what shrinkage did you allow for?

Sitting in front of a fire. Not that cold is it? I guess it's a good place to chuck all the offcuts (and cock ups) in.:sweatdrop

[Flettner]

Being that this is not a CNC (or even computer drawn, or for that matter even drawn) part everything has to be done the cunning way. I do have the hole coordinance written on a piece of paper somewhere. But in this case I used sharpened up grub screws just protruding from the engine case to locate the hole centres. Put a piece of ammour board over it and give it a hit, all the centers are now transfered to the board. Drill the board and attach the wooden (threaded) lugs on the opposite side of the board and thats the begining of the pattern. Lugs are drilled off center and turned so the larger part is away from the center of the pattern, this is to allow for shrinkage. Once the pattern had been built enough to have some of the lugs attached I used the 3/16" (just on 5mm outside size) to locate the pattern back onto the engine block for final fitting, that would be running all the sealing edges around. About 1.5% / 2% bigger for shrinkage.

[WilDun]

Being that this is not a CNC (or even computer drawn, or for that matter even drawn) part everything has to be done the cunning way.

That's all good logical thinking and not a hi tech machine in sight! - makes some of us amateurs feel that we can still achieve the goals, instead of giving up!

Ken, it is that bloody cold here but hopefully it'll just be temporary and last only for a couple of months or so! :msn-wink:

[Flettner]

Fletto, the roll pins. Did you pitch out the centres on some other plate/board and use this to centre each of the wooden bosses? And also, what shrinkage did you allow for?

Sitting in front of a fire. Not that cold is it? I guess it's a good place to chuck all the offcuts (and cock ups) in.:sweatdrop

The irony, using Pine for the patterns and burning all the Oak in the fire:laugh:

[Bert]

Being that this is not a CNC (or even computer drawn, or for that matter even drawn) part everything has to be done the cunning way. I do have the hole coordinance written on a piece of paper somewhere. But in this case I used sharpened up grub screws just protruding from the engine case to locate the hole centres. Put a piece of ammour board over it and give it a hit, all the centers are now transfered to the board. Drill the board and attach the wooden (threaded) lugs on the opposite side of the board and thats the begining of the pattern. Lugs are drilled off center and turned so the larger part is away from the center of the pattern, this is to allow for shrinkage. Once the pattern had been built enough to have some of the lugs attached I used the 3/16" (just on 5mm outside size) to locate the pattern back onto the engine block for final fitting, that would be running all the sealing edges around. About 1.5% / 2% bigger for shrinkage.

Bloody cunning. Recently I was ponder how one would undertake this exercise. Even tried to doctor goggle to see if there was a simple solution (no nothing really). And once again you come up trumps.
Look forward to this story evolving. :innocent:

[Flettner]

Another trail ride under the F9's belt or should that be another notch. 42 K loop and I would say at about 21 K's the nut holding the drive sprocket fell off. Long down hill, at the bottom no gears, bugger. Found a suitable tree and sat for a while, what to do? I thought I wonder what the chances are of finding that nut? Five minutes later back up the track ( a few bikes had been through too) there it was just sitting there waiting, couldn't believe it! The locking system is crap, I'll have to devise a never come undone lock ( accept for when I want it to) , the original locking tab was all but shot and now gone. I would imagine Kawasaki don't stock them any more.
So finger tight and had to stop about every half K to re tighten, got me home, so doesn't count as a DNF.

[Grumph]

I'd bet the lockwashers are available. Something will have that spline. Z1 lockwashers for the same job are still available - common to a lot of Suzuki's too.