The Bucket Foundry

[Flettner]

Ok, I am not worthy:crybaby: hydroforming is not as easy as I first thought, made a bit of a mess and wasted a day. Bugger that and threw it all in the corner, run out of patience. I think I tried to make the bends too tight. Anyway gone back to my old ways of pipe building, at least it works first time. I'll have another go when I'm less aggravated. The header pipes formed well, I guess that's a start.
Press tools next time!

[Michael Moore]

Neil, isn't a nice curved and tapered header pipe coming out of the cylinder the best part to have success with? Once you get to the middle/convergent sections those are often easier to fit to the bike with the traditional cones/cylinders.

There's some nice examples of hydroformed pipes and photos of the process here:

http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3107-gp-125-250-why-hydroforming-is-not-as-good-as-welded-cones

[Muciek]

In ESE thread Wobbly said that having hydroformed header and the rest made of cones is best way.

[dark art]

That thread on pit-lane has very valuable info indeed.

The hydroformed curves tighten aprox 30%. Headers are very easy to hydroform, even with a pressure washer, just remember the rule of thumb of 30% (is very dependent on curve radius and pipe diameter). 1mm thick sheet formes much smoother than 0.8 in my experience.

[Niels Abildgaard]

Will it not be better if the welding seams were parallel to the gasflow?
Make a pattern of salt( NaCl) ,put some scissor made and fitted strips on,weld and wrap it with wire.
Throw it in water and salt dissolves?
The swedes terrorised Europe during thirty years war with canons made of very little wrougth iron strips wrapped with leather.

[Grumph]

Ok, I am not worthy:crybaby: hydroforming is not as easy as I first thought, made a bit of a mess and wasted a day. Bugger that and threw it all in the corner, run out of patience. I think I tried to make the bends too tight. Anyway gone back to my old ways of pipe building, at least it works first time. I'll have another go when I'm less aggravated. The header pipes formed well, I guess that's a start.
Press tools next time!

Join the club...
Back in the day I saw locally made tapered header sections made from pressings. Wood pattern like you're used to, then cast resin dies.
I'm told the resin dies are good for 50 - 60 shots.

[Flettner]

I take back what I said about the Harris gas welding torch, once I stopped the backfiring it's become for want of a better word delightful. Pulling it apart and reassembling it must have either dislodged some blockage or something must have been loose, anyway it's all good now. First pipe is finished up to the reverse cone, now I've calmed down I'm going to have another go at hydroforming the reverse cone (x2) I'll make two back to back as one, then cut them in half.

[Flettner]

Join the club...
Back in the day I saw locally made tapered header sections made from pressings. Wood pattern like you're used to, then cast resin dies.
I'm told the resin dies are good for 50 - 60 shots.
I have done that before using zinc (melted down old carburetors) poured into a header cut in half from an old chamber. Ie zinc dies, they worked ok although the steel did distort a little with the hot zinc on it.
When I was an apprentice, you know back in the day, I saw the toolmakers pour a die using alloy filled resin and get a few blow mold shots off, to show the customer what the finished product would look like, worked great for a short time.

[Michael Moore]

I was told that when Ron Grant had his tuning business here in the SF Bay Area he was forming expansion chambers in concrete dies. I don't know if that was pressings or to constrain hydroformed sections.

[WilDun]

I was told that when Ron Grant had his tuning business here in the SF Bay Area he was forming expansion chambers in concrete dies. I don't know if that was pressings or to constrain hydroformed sections.

Michael, at the time Ron Grant was around, some people were experimenting with explosive forming in concrete dies, unfortunately these concrete dies were not reusable! - I don't know if he was using explosives (maybe just high pressure water),

As a matter of interest, I remember a guy called Bill Boyd from San Francisco, who came over (to N. Ireland) to race occasionally on his Yamahas, probably around 1965 - he even came on his honeymoon! (understanding bride!).
I had heard that he had a horrendous accident in USA, but no more since. Have you ever heard of him?

[Michael Moore]

Sure, I've met Bill, though it has been a long time ago. He crashed on the Sunday Morning Ride in Marin county north of SF and lost a leg. He kept riding after he recovered from that. His son Wade raced solos in our local club, the AFM, and I think has since switched over to racing outfits. He's raced at the IoM 10+ times (I think) and may be going now to the big vintage race at Philip Island too:

https://www.facebook.com/wade.boyd

cheers,
Michael

[WilDun]

Will it not be better if the welding seams were parallel to the gasflow?


Niels, for a long time I have been thinking about that as well - it should be relatively easy to work out the shape and length of the strips (maybe 6 or 8) to suit the curves you require, weld them together (making something like a cucumber) then finish by hydroforming. Surely no more difficult than the traditional way?
Not as elegant looking as a properly hydroformed one of course but possibly more accurate!
- of course, it's just a thought and I probably won't do anything more about it :rolleyes:

However, I don't really understand you regarding the wire wrapping and salt - dissolving what?

Have you still got your Boxford lathe? I've just had to sell mine (possibly moving house) but I wasn't all that thrilled with the constantly slipping belt anyway!

[WilDun]

Sure, I've met Bill, though it has been a long time ago.

https://www.facebook.com/wade.boyd

cheers,
Michael

Thanks Michael - often wondered what happened - He was was so keen he also bought a then new Yamaha 100 twin (stock standard) and shamed a couple of guys on 125 Bultaco racers on a small tight circuit!

[Grumph]

Sure, I've met Bill, though it has been a long time ago. He crashed on the Sunday Morning Ride in Marin county north of SF and lost a leg. He kept riding after he recovered from that. His son Wade raced solos in our local club, the AFM, and I think has since switched over to racing outfits. He's raced at the IoM 10+ times (I think) and may be going now to the big vintage race at Philip Island too:

cheers,
Michael

Somewhere here I've got a very old Cycle magazine with a write up on the Sunday morning ride...writer describes being passed by a bike with an artificial leg hung over the licence plate - Bill Boyd.

[Grumph]

I was told that when Ron Grant had his tuning business here in the SF Bay Area he was forming expansion chambers in concrete dies. I don't know if that was pressings or to constrain hydroformed sections.

Hydroforming I think. I was standing on the bank talking to him and both of us trying to work out what the problem was when Cathcart finally fell off the Britten....

[Niels Abildgaard]

Niels, for a long time I have been thinking about that as well - it should be relatively easy to work out the shape and length of the strips (maybe 6 or 8) to suit the curves you require, weld them together (making something like a cucumber) then finish by hydroforming. Surely no more difficult than the traditional way?
Not as elegant looking as a properly hydroformed one of course but possibly more accurate!
- of course, it's just a thought and I probably won't do anything more about it :rolleyes:

However, I don't really understand you regarding the wire wrapping and salt - dissolving what?

Have you still got your Boxford lathe? I've just had to sell mine (possibly moving house) but I wasn't all that thrilled with the constantly slipping belt anyway!


Hello WilDun

I imagine making a former in either salt or alu and then plank it with iron ,steel or titanium.It will not be nessecary to hydroform afterward as gas feels no difference going through an octagon or a circle.Salt can be dissolved in water or alu in a caustic soda solution.
Motorbiking was getting to unsafe due to age (of me,not bike) but I still run my Boxford as You can see and belt does not slip unless I make something really stupid and then it is a good thing.

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http://i.imgur.com/kjnlMT9.jpg

[Frits Overmars]

hydroforming is not as easy as I first thought... header pipes formed well, I guess that's a start. Press tools next time!I would not choose hydroforming when building a straight pipe. Cutting, rolling and welding segments is simpler and quicker. But hydroforming is fine for curved headers. And when you do that, it's logical to make the complete pipe that way.

Pressing can work too. But you don't need a die. You will need a massive positive of the pipe, same as you would when pressing in a die. You can make that positive on a lathe and then heat it red-hot and bend it (the old-fashioned laborious way) or you can CNC it (and then you'll only need the lower half of it).
Next you'll need a hole through which you press that positive.

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[husaberg]

I would not choose hydroforming when building a straight pipe. Cutting, rolling and welding segments is simpler and quicker. But hydroforming is fine for curved headers. And when you do that, it's logical to make the complete pipe that way.

Pressing can work too. But you don't need a die. You will need a massive positive of the pipe, same as you would when pressing in a die. You can make that positive on a lathe and then heat it red-hot and bend it (the old-fashioned laborious way) or you can CNC it (and then you'll only need the lower half of it).
Next you'll need a hole through which you press that positive.



Frits my understanding is the ROC bike frame components, were made with a press into conctrete form based on some French arospace practice
Do you know anyone that could confirm this?

[Flettner]

I would not choose hydroforming when building a straight pipe. Cutting, rolling and welding segments is simpler and quicker. But hydroforming is fine for curved headers. And when you do that, it's logical to make the complete pipe that way.

Pressing can work too. But you don't need a die. You will need a massive positive of the pipe, same as you would when pressing in a die. You can make that positive on a lathe and then heat it red-hot and bend it (the old-fashioned laborious way) or you can CNC it (and then you'll only need the lower half of it).
Next you'll need a hole through which you press that positive.

324538

Hydroforming is truly an art, I respect those that can achieve good results with this system. I usually, as Frits said, just roll the cones on my cone roller then cut, turn, weld and beat with a dolly to get the curves I want.
Ironically the next hydroforming I did this afternoon I accounted for the 30% tighten up of the curve, didn't happen, and the formed shape is the same curve as the cut out shape. Go figure? Never the less the forming process worked well and the shape formed as I expected (apart from the non tighten up). I have to keep reminding myself that this is just an experiment, all I want is two chambers the same and if they don't look so good too bad. If the miraculous happens and the engine runs well I'll make up some more tidy pipes, well that's my story anyway:yeah: right

[Frits Overmars]

Hydroforming is truly an art, I respect those that can achieve good results with this system. I usually, as Frits said, just roll the cones on my cone.A cone roller, no less. You live a life of luxury Neil. I never owned or even used anything that posh, I used my thumbs and an old front fork tube.
But then I always tried to avoid mass production :rolleyes:.


Frits my understanding is the ROC bike frame components, were made with a press into conctrete form based on some French arospace practice. Do you know anyone that could confirm this?Sorry, I don't, Husa. My understanding is that concrete dies were mainly used in explosive forming of large objects. For small parts like pipes and frame segments I think I would first look at rubber cement (or wood, that is how the original Porsche bodies were made). But I have zero experience and I don't know anybody who does.

[Michael Moore]

Here are some useful videos for rubber/urethane press forming. It looks like 60-90 Shore A is used for the urethane forming pads.

http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1277219627001

3/8" sides, 1/2 bottom, laminated chunk o' rubber, old inner tubes

The following are a few videos from a series on constructing a home-built airplane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMlbOkrVxZM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWGAIVDpDLc

60 Shore A, correcting for spring-back

Quintus Technology videos:
90 shore A throwpads (presumably urethane)

part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA_a0pD5-UU

part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhG8gISbWMA

part 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUSljM05pzo

[ken seeber]

Ages ago, we did a cylinder that was going to double the power output of 2 strokes. This (only) had two exhaust pipes, unlike today where 3 is the new norm. These were hydroformed. As MM said, there are 2 ways to do this, one being to do an edge weld, the other being to roll the edges and do a butt weld. We chose the former, as at the time didn’t have anything to effectively roll the edges around. Did a bit of a calc on the material that was to be “lost” in forming the resultant seam and simply added this to the design size.
Bends certainly did overbend and the 30% allowance sounds about right.
There were wrinkles which, to some extent could be hammered down whilst under hydraulic pressure, the surface was far from flat. No probs, just fill it with shop air pressure (around 120 psi) and then locally heat with an oxy torch. Male wrinkles could be easily flattened and female wrinkles would expand out and then blended with heat and hammer.
Without any appreciation of the possibility of accelerated mortality, we decided while the torch was burning and the pressure was still on, that it’d be interesting to see what might happen if one locally (over)heated a small area. No big deal. The target spot firstly went red, then whitish and then just a small Mt Vesuvius of around Ø5-6 mm. With the cool escaping gas, it cooled pretty quickly. Certainly no tearing or splitting from the “stress raiser” spot.

[ken seeber]

Whoops, here's the pics:

[Flettner]

Whoops, here's the pics:

Bugger that, I won't be showing off my pipes then:facepalm: That looks real nice Ken,

Frits, when the Super Charged Honda 100 was finally abandoned and I saw the writing on the wall, if you can't beat them join them, the first thing I built was a cone roller. One of the useful things I've done with my life;)
I spent a bit of time trying different pressing methods but finally just gave up and made my pipes as straight as possible.

[Frits Overmars]

Ages ago, we did a cylinder that was going to double the power output of 2 strokes.A teaser if ever there was one, Ken. I hope you don't mind me lifting a tip of the veil :rolleyes:.
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[Flettner]

Ok you press tool junkies here is a rough arse press tool.
This is to make a tuned induction for the four port Subaru EA81 engines I build up for Autogyro's. This tool was made years ago (pre CNC) and cunningly as you can see the curved end swaps around for left and right hand pressings. Curve not tapered but straight section is. Pressings are in 1.6mm alloy and welded together via the seam, if all works to plan you don't even need filler rod.
Center plenum chamber is made in a large press tool (CNC machined). I haven't pressed any for a while but I seem to remember it takes a good 60 Tons. All seam welded construction, finished product weighs less than half the original (about a third ) and together with the four port heads I make (and a special cam) boosts the engine from 72 HP to 130 HP (NA), no extra rev's just much higher BMEP via better cylinder filling. There is a lot of effort building up these tools but in the long run when finished well worth it.

[Ocean1]

Ok you press tool junkies here is a rough arse press tool.
This is to make a tuned induction for the four port Subaru EA81 engines I build up for Autogyro's. This tool was made years ago (pre CNC) and cunningly as you can see the curved end swaps around for left and right hand pressings. Curve not tapered but straight section is. Pressings are in 1.6mm alloy and welded together via the seam, if all works to plan you don't even need filler rod.
Center plenum chamber is made in a large press tool (CNC machined). I haven't pressed any for a while but I seem to remember it takes a good 60 Tons. All seam welded construction, finished product weighs less than half the original (about a third ) and together with the four port heads I make (and a special cam) boosts the engine from 72 HP to 130 HP (NA), no extra rev's just much higher BMEP via better cylinder filling. There is a lot of effort building up these tools but in the long run when finished well worth it.

Reckon you'd press 1.6mm mild steel in that?

And how do you weld the alloy seams? TIG? Purged?

[Flettner]

Reckon you'd press 1.6mm mild steel in that?

And how do you weld the alloy seams? TIG? Purged?

Yes tig, no purge, not needed with the seam welding. The male half of the curved press tool is the one I poured from zinc, it's lasted well. Here is one manifold running on an EA 82 , home cast twin cam heads, cams, and all the other rubbish that goes with a fourstroke engine.
http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H63632_zps95e0b712.jpg

[WilDun]

Yes tig, no purge, not needed with the seam welding. The male half of the curved press tool is the one I poured from zinc, it's lasted well. Here is one manifold running on an EA 82 , home cast twin cam heads, cams, and all the other rubbish

Neil, in the EA 81 version did you retain the pushrod operation?

[Drew]

Neil, in the EA 81 version did you retain the pushrod operation?

Not by the look of the cam wheels and belt.

[WilDun]

Not by the look of the cam wheels and belt.

Drew, that is an EA 82, which I think was already OHC.
I think the EA 82 may have been basically an EA 81 already modified (from pushrod) to OHC. ......... then Neil got it to actually work properly!

[Drew]

Drew, that is an EA 82, which I think was already OHC.
I think the EA 82 may have been basically an EA 81 already modified (from pushrod) to OHC. ......... then Neil got it to actually work properly!

Oh yip. I get what ya mean.

[Flettner]

EA 81 push rod head original Siamese port, After market push rod head with four ports, my second attempt at a head but for the EA 82. Subaru had an ugly single cam Siamese port head so I thought a quad cam four valve twin plugs per cylinder might be the go. Built an flew two engine's but get too expensive to build

[Flettner]

Another view, EA82 and EA81

EA82 engine with quad cam heads

http://i1056.photobucket.com/albums/t380/uniflow/H6440.jpg

[Flettner]

Look at all that nasty complexity. This is the engine where I lost all respect for fourstrokes. Gave them away to a guy down in Christchurch who was going to run one in a classic rally car. Don't know what ever happened to them?

[Grumph]

Look at all that nasty complexity. This is the engine where I lost all respect for fourstrokes. Gave them away to a guy down in Christchurch who was going to run one in a classic rally car. Don't know what ever happened to them?

There's a guy lives local to me with a race shop in town who preps rally cars incl at least one top Subaru. Next time I see him I'll ask...

I was going to ask if there'd been any interest from the speedway guys.

[Flettner]

There's a guy lives local to me with a race shop in town who preps rally cars incl at least one top Subaru. Next time I see him I'll ask...

I was going to ask if there'd been any interest from the speedway guys.
Huh they might be interested, but I'm not:crazy:

[WilDun]

Huh they might be interested, but I'm not:crazy:

Great achievement on your part though, but when you look at it, the two stroke still reigns supreme from your point of view and wins hands down on the power to weight ratio!,
Pity about the prejudice which is still there with bikes and other road vehicles, not being helped by the bad press generated by the recent attempts at "world beaters" like Suter etc. - which don't seem to have solved many of the main problems of the two stroke! :facepalm:

[breezy]

Look at all that nasty complexity. This is the engine where I lost all respect for fourstrokes. Gave them away to a guy down in Christchurch who was going to run one in a classic rally car. Don't know what ever happened to them?

would you like to replace the cam belts on that!!!! shocking..

[Grumph]

would you like to replace the cam belts on that!!!! shocking..

Seen - and worked on - worse than that. What I don't like is the use of what look like std belt tensioners. Ducati get away with a much simpler adjustment.

What size plugs are in the 2 plug heads ? If they're 10 or worse, 8mm plugs I can understand the expense going up....

[Flettner]

Seen - and worked on - worse than that. What I don't like is the use of what look like std belt tensioners. Ducati get away with a much simpler adjustment.

What size plugs are in the 2 plug heads ? If they're 10 or worse, 8mm plugs I can understand the expense going up....
8mm

I don't remember what the tensioner was off, not Subaru though.

[Grumph]

8mm

Shit, that's what ? around $350 worth of plugs....

Just as well they weren't radio suppressed ones too.

[Flettner]

About, I guess.

[Drew]

Shit, that's what ? around $350 worth of plugs....

Just as well they weren't radio suppressed ones too.
Have you not had the pleasure of buying Yoshimura spark plugs mate? $350...each.

[Frits Overmars]

Have you not had the pleasure of buying Yoshimura spark plugs mate? $350...each.Which reminds me of the market vendor who sold little plastic bags containing apple pips.
A man stopped to ask about their purpose and the vendor explained that eating these pips would enhance the consumer's intelligence. So the customer bought a bag, containing five pips, for ten dollars.
Half an hour later he was back, shouting: "Wait a minute! Ten dollars would have bought me thirty apples; that's over a hundred pips! Whereupon the vendor replied: "See? it's already working!"

[Drew]

Which reminds me of the market vendor who sold little plastic bags containing apple pips.
A man stopped to ask about their purpose and the vendor explained that eating these pips would enhance the consumer's intelligence. So the customer bought a bag, containing five pips, for ten dollars.
Half an hour later he was back, shouting: "Wait a minute! Ten dollars would have bought me thirty apples; that's over a hundred pips! Whereupon the vendor replied: "See? it's already working!"
Yoshimura plugs are bike specific. They sink as close as they can to the piston crown with a flat face. Pretty good way to raise compression and stay inside the rules of any class.

[Grumph]

Many years ago - around 1987/88 - when we were running the alky burning GSXR1100, the local NGK agents offered us "the plugs they use on the IOM in GSXR's" Apparently the altitude changes on the IOM made it a bit hard on plugs so NGK had come up with some specials...
When they told us $160NZ each, we declined with thanks.
Plain NGK 10's worked just fine thanks. At about $4NZ each...

[ken seeber]

Cuppla days ago, in response to Wobbly’s discussion to core reshaping on ESE, I said that not only could cores be rubbed, but also added to. Then I thought that I’d give it a fresh go with an old shell core.
So, just pre-heated up the core a little with an LPG flame, and then sprinkled a layer of new shell core sand on, softly heating up each layer by wafting the flame over til the colour became a mustard yellow and then repeating this for subsequent layers. With more heat & time it could be baked further, but this is quite adequate to achieve sufficient strength for casting. I had to build it up this way, as shell core sand is basically like dry sand, whereas CO2 sand is sticky, it could be manually built up to a desired level/shape prior to CO2 gassing.
After doing a few layers, I could easily pry these off as a single biscuit. I then roughened up the surface of the original core, even with some small undercuts, and this held on tight.
After cooling, it was easy to file and reshape as was the original core. Not the way for high production, but well adequate for development purposes.

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[husaberg]

Tigs is for pussies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw5lYMmxSB0

[Michael Moore]

The top surface pattern for the replica Webco Yamaha 125/175 cylinder head in Renshape 472 is off the mill as of noon today. The draft angle is 1 degree, the fins are 2.25" tall, and there is a .125" radius for the gullet between the fins.

I took notes on what was happening for future reference as I sat watching it, waiting for the inevitable crash that surprisingly never arrived. :) I did have a near "ooops" when I had the post file modified to pick up a different toolchange coordinate, and didn't think that I only wanted it to pick up X and Y coords and not Z, as Z for a tool change is always at the Z home position. Z home's position will vary in the different world coordinate systems depending on the location of Part Zero. But I caught that in time and modified the post to give me an M25 command (go to Z home) instead of picking up the unused Z coordinate parameter (default of 0) in the "set an alternate tool change location" screen.

All in all, I'm quite pleased with how the Renshape 472 worked. You'll notice slight cusps or tool tracks in the photos but the largest of those are .001", and most are visual marks that I have trouble distinguishing with a fingertip. I will need to do some gentle scuffing with some fine Scotchbrite or similar product to blend those very small discontinuities, so I did not achieve a "hands free" pattern.

I took a lot of notes and learned some useful stuff. For example, I started at the top with a .062" step down, and then reduced that to .04" and .025" as I went to longer and less stiff end mills. At the first tool change I was very pleased with how smooth the surface was with the large step down. When I checked the next section with a smaller step down I was even more pleased with it as it was smoother (as was the final and smallest step section). But that made me want to have used the small step down all the way through! I tried redoing one fin but that was a bad idea due to the small cut (.0005" approx so probably more rubbing than cutting) and the fin being much more flexible since it was nearly cut free, so I stopped. I'll have to do a little more scuffing on that fin, though it is still only a slight change to the surface.

To avoid snapping fins as I did with the first attempt in wax I roughed the outside and the 5 inside pockets, and then largely finished the pockets (inner ends of the fins) so there would be minimal side force seen on the finish cuts. Then I did a parallel finishing operation on the tops of the fins and the corner radii, and horizontal finishing in layers from that point on. At the end I did some engraving operations to clean up some spots that were needing a small cusp removed.

I think after the blending a light coat of pattern lacquer will make any minor discontinuities invisible.

This has been a long process because I hadn't used many of the 3D machining operations (mostly I've done 2.5D projects) and had to figure out which ones to use and how to configure them. There were also spots where I had plunge/transfer speeds much too slow and speeding those up would have saved 1+ hours of "moving through air not cutting anything" time.

Now to see if I can finish and pull a rubber mold from the patterns without damaging them in the process, and then cast urethane patterns to use as the working tool.

cheers,
Michael

roughing:
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0617.jpg

roughing:
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0622.jpg

end of first .062" step down operations:
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0633.jpg

finished but no hand work:
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0634.jpg

finished but no hand work. The outside fin is the one I tried to remachine for a smaller step down and you can see the stop point half-way down that will need a bit of blending.
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/foundry/WebcoCT1_0640.jpg

[ken seeber]

Michael,
Great post. Looking forward to the splashing of hot metal and seeing the fully machined final product. Will you be using green sand, CO2 or another, like Fenotec? I presume 6061 T6?

[Michael Moore]

Ken, Jeff and I have bought A356.2 ingots from a local foundry supply company. I will do a -T6 heat treatment on it.

We've got sodium silicate binder and a tank of CO2 and also some Techniset (phenolic urethane) binder/catalyst The latter is nice to work with as it gives an even cure and lets the binder get well mixed with the sand before the catalyst is added. The sodium silicate/CO2 didn't seem to harden consistently. There's also Petrobond on hand.

I will first see if I can get Petrobond to work. That is the least wasteful on materials and would let me avoid having 50-70 pounds of sand being purchased and thrown away with each mold. I made a pneumatic vibrator to attach to the match boards and hopefully between that and jacking screws I'll be able to pull the pattern without damaging the mold. But hard sand is available if it is needed.

cheers,
Michael

[husaberg]

Ken, Jeff and I have bought A356.2 ingots from a local foundry supply company. I will do a -T6 heat treatment on it.

We've got sodium silicate binder and a tank of CO2 and also some Techniset (phenolic urethane) binder/catalyst The latter is nice to work with as it gives an even cure and lets the binder get well mixed with the sand before the catalyst is added. The sodium silicate/CO2 didn't seem to harden consistently. There's also Petrobond on hand.

I will first see if I can get Petrobond to work. That is the least wasteful on materials and would let me avoid having 50-70 pounds of sand being purchased and thrown away with each mold. I made a pneumatic vibrator to attach to the match boards and hopefully between that and jacking screws I'll be able to pull the pattern without damaging the mold. But hard sand is available if it is needed.

cheers,
Michael

How do you mull your petrobond.

[Michael Moore]

I've got a fresh bag of it so I haven't had a need for mulling. It seems fine straight out of the bag when it hasn't been used before. I thought mulling was largely needed only with green sands or when adding the Petrobond compound to older Petrobond to freshen it up.

[husaberg]

I've got a fresh bag of it so I haven't had a need for mulling. It seems fine straight out of the bag when it hasn't been used before. I thought mulling was largely needed only with green sands or when adding the Petrobond compound to older Petrobond to freshen it up.

No idea, i thought it had to be done to reuse or do you just sieve out the burnt bits?

[Muciek]

Guys I wanted to ask a question, If I want to have a head like this cast, how to do a pattern for it? Should it be split in few places? Any examples of similar stuff? Thanks in advance
324832

[Michael Moore]

Yes, we've been picking out the burned bits of Petrobond and put the rest of the used stuff in one container. The next mold gets fresh Petrobond seived over the pattern to start and then once a good layer is packed next to it fill in with the good used material next.

It appears that eventually the oils/chemicals will get burned out of the Petrobond, but I think you can buy cans of liquid to use to refresh it, and mulling might well be in order at that point to get the Petrobond back into a uniform consistency.

cheers,
Michael

[Michael Moore]

Muciek, you might be able to split it where that reinforcing rib is, but you'll probably want the fins to draft from the middle to the front and back ends so you can pull the pattern. So the parting line would be through the middle of the combustion chamber out to that rib.

cheers,
Michael

[Flettner]

I don't think these pipes stick out any more than a normal 125 MX bike, a bit of work in these pipes. These photos are terrible, I'll try again in the daylight, that's better.

[F5 Dave]

It looks like a bunch of work. Stacked mufflers? That is going to turn heads at the track. Awesome:yes:

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV1ZOzAaXbo

[Michael Moore]

With a CNC mill I'm not clear why he had centers for each throw instead of just rotating the crank around the centerline and having the tool move up/down/sideways as needed. I suppose he might want the centers for grinding the journals at a later point, but they seem redundant for the milling operation.

[Grumph]

With a CNC mill I'm not clear why he had centers for each throw instead of just rotating the crank around the centerline and having the tool move up/down/sideways as needed. I suppose he might want the centers for grinding the journals at a later point, but they seem redundant for the milling operation.

I agree but suspect that they're for finish grinding also. I've never seen a crank grinder small enough to do that crank so I'd assume he's going to have to use a toolpost grinder...

You can never assume holes in cranks are there for an obvious reason...Guy I know here made a replacement crank for a GP Delage - 1927, straight 8, roller bearing big ends - split rod bearings. One piece...Tasty but bloody awkward.
Anyway, the original had 3 X 8mm bore holes right from end to end through the webs. Two problems - what were they for and how do you bore them. Crank I should add is about 3 feet long...

We reckoned in the end that they were there for checking the crank was straight while away from the factory race shop and the right jigs. Just carry a piece of accurate and straight 8mm rod with you for checking.
Boring them was harder - he used hardened guide blocks between the webs and it finished up pretty good.

[Flettner]

The edge forming machine for hydroforming exhausts. Both Heath and Robinson but it does the job. Yamaha 100 twin rod, old washing machine motor and just bits found and cobbled together, I probably built this about thirty years ago.
Anvils are removable for other jobs as it was originally built to make dished ends for fourstroke (I know what was I thinking) mufflers.

[Flettner]

Pull start total weight is the same as YZ 250 kick start leaver on it's own.

[Frits Overmars]

Pull start total weight is the same as YZ 250 kick start leaver on it's own.Man, you need a better camera. It seems that new Samsung Note 7 smartphones can be had for little money :devil2:
How about starting effort? Does it need more jerks than kicks?

[Hemi Makutu]

Me too, I've been pondering over a modern triple myself. Every time I get enthusiastic I remember all the unfinished projects:(
But In saying that I do have an interested party that want's one (as well as me) so the design process continues. First it was going to be a 1050cc three using my own cylinders off the 700 twin gyro engine, but then it got down graded to a 700 twin (with a balance shaft). BUT now it's down graded again to 480 three. I'm building a 160cc (58 x 58 ) cylinder to suit this bottom end bolted in the YZ250 frame, with just standard, modern, port arrangement (two versions, one a bridged port and one a single with eye ports). So three times 160 cylinders but in a line? Firing the two outside cylinders together and the middle one 180 degrees later, (better for mechanical balance) or turn it into a V?
I'm keen on the three in line as it will be easier to make, center cylinder pointing backwards, water cooled cases, possible EFI too.
But this is all just dream land at the moment.
You know I do have these patterns here for a rotary valve 700 tandem twin engine (ex gyro engine ), can't help day dreaming about that as a street bike. Thin and lite, goobs of power:eek:
Might be 153cc, not 160cc opps.


A cast block Kawasaki KR 750 triple:
http://kawasakitriples.myfastforum.org/Kawasaki_KR_750_Barrel_about10413.html

Ok not new, & not even reed valve, let alone power valve, but a bit of thought seems to have been
put into aligning the transfers for decent area, which was one of the H2 750 roadbike/H2R F750 racebike shortfalls.

Incidentally, having read the head casting posts, I note that a German bloke is making new-cast replacements
for the crack-prone H2, with current tech combustion chamber design reportedly worth +!0% power as a bolt on.

[Flettner]

How about starting effort? Does it need more jerks than kicks?

Haven't started it yet but the pull start works well, it will start. I wouldn't want to be trying to start it with a weak ignition though. I think everything is in place to hammer it out this weekend and get some sort of (running round the yard) result.

Got a Robin engine starter, got it home and realized it turned the engine backwards. Bugger, but with some careful redesigning and flipping some parts over it works fine now, there is always a way.

[Hemi Makutu]

Seems those pull-starts for bikes are 'the new black'..

http://www.bikebound.com/2016/10/17/gatto-nero/

[mr bucketracer]

A cast block Kawasaki KR 750 triple:
http://kawasakitriples.myfastforum.org/Kawasaki_KR_750_Barrel_about10413.html

Ok not new, & not even reed valve, let alone power valve, but a bit of thought seems to have been
put into aligning the transfers for decent area, which was one of the H2 750 roadbike/H2R F750 racebike shortfalls.

Incidentally, having read the head casting posts, I note that a German bloke is making new-cast replacements
for the crack-prone H2, with current tech combustion chamber design reportedly worth +!0% power as a bolt on.thats a nice peice of work !

[Hemi Makutu]

This bloke makes some nice stuff, but seems a tad pricey: https://sso-bikes.de/shop

( & suppose you could cover those Kawasaki engine rattles by that bloody Ducati dry clutch racket)

[Hemi Makutu]

This article from ' Flight' ~ 60 years ago, discusses merits of injection tech on a large SV aero-engine.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1956/1956%20-%201630.html

( & aren't those lovely 'organic' look exhaust manifolds a real work of the engineer's art!)

[ken seeber]

After a lot of distractions, am able to now get back into it. Have to flare (well more of a long taper, bit of a compromise I know Frits) the pipes a bit in the straight exit length, then do the cones. The final system will be 3 vertical ups, with the tailpipes bent so they are horizontal, all facing in the same direction. This means the actual chamber sections can just be straight. During the wait for the laser cut blanks, can get back into the dyno restoration.


325247

[husaberg]

After a lot of distractions, am able to now get back into it. Have to flare (well more of a long taper, bit of a compromise I know Frits) the pipes a bit in the straight exit length, then do the cones. The final system will be 3 vertical ups, with the tailpipes bent so they are horizontal, all facing in the same direction. This means the actual chamber sections can just be straight. During the wait for the laser cut blanks, can get back into the dyno restoration.

325247
The El Toros.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/z0i4BMrETAo/hqdefault.jpg

[ken seeber]

Close Hooser, but not close enough. Your little bull has only 2 horns, unless...... :niceone:

[Frits Overmars]

Close Hooser, but not close enough. Your little bull has only 2 horns, unless...... :niceone:After 68 years I finally realize where the english expression horny comes from :rolleyes:

[ken seeber]

After 68 years I finally realize where the english expression horny comes from :rolleyes:

Hahaha, very good Frits. It just shows that you young fellers still have a bit to learn. Give it a couple more years and you’ll be there. :soon:

[Flettner]

https://youtu.be/6keqpL3rmwk

It lives again. I've been around the yard on it now, timing is retarded and it's as rich as hell but it goes under it's own steam. Tick, done, throw it in the corner. Next project.

[Hemi Makutu]

Splendid effort F, stay on it!

(& by "timing is retarded..." do you mean ignition, or valve?)

[Grumph]

It lives again. I've been around the yard on it now, timing is retarded and it's as rich as hell but it goes under it's own steam. Tick, done, throw it in the corner. Next project.

Well done. Now give it to someone to develop....and get on with the next project.

[Flettner]

You know, by the end of this weekend I'm a bit over it. But I'll leave it for a while, have a think about what's happening then have another all weekender/bender.
Acerbis four hour next weekend then first of the classic enduros weekend after then maybe I'll attack it again. At least its ready for the new barrel's as they become serviceable. ISO standard bottom end and all ;)

[adegnes]

After a lot of distractions, am able to now get back into it. Have to flare (well more of a long taper, bit of a compromise I know Frits) the pipes a bit in the straight exit length, then do the cones. The final system will be 3 vertical ups, with the tailpipes bent so they are horizontal, all facing in the same direction. This means the actual chamber sections can just be straight. During the wait for the laser cut blanks, can get back into the dyno restoration.


325247

Awesome! Looks so cool!



https://youtu.be/6keqpL3rmwk

It lives again. I've been around the yard on it now, timing is retarded and it's as rich as hell but it goes under it's own steam. Tick, done, throw it in the corner. Next project.

:niceone::niceone::niceone:

[tjbw]

Standing ovation for flettner

Hope to see more of the sleeve engine.

Future project - tune the sleeve engine?

[breezy]

Excellent work Flettner, Harry Ricardo has got to be smiling down on you:woohoo:

[TZ350]

:2thumbsup ............. sleeve engine, maybe a motorcycle first.

[Flettner]

Perhaps, there have been fourstroke sleeve valve motorcycle engines in the past but I'm not sure there ever has been an open ended sleeve twostroke before. Hussa will know.

[Flettner]

Splendid effort F, stay on it!

(& by "timing is retarded..." do you mean ignition, or valve?)

Ignition timing

[tjbw]

Perhaps, there have been fourstroke sleeve valve motorcycle engines in the past but I'm not sure there ever has been an open ended sleeve twostroke before. Hussa will know.

Here's a cut-away Barr & Stroud sleeve valve engine c 1920. It was used in Grindley Peerless bikes. They also made a twin. These are on display at the Sammy Miller museum in England.

Ricardo developed H35 sleeve valve 2 stroke single engine. Rolls Royce tried to develop Crecy, a V12 liquid cooled 2 stroke. It was abandoned in 1945 when they realised the potential of jet engines.

[Hemi Makutu]

The Ricardo Collection have at least one V-twin test segment of the R-R Crecy, 'tis said..

Might be a bit of a handful in a bike chassis, though ( the V-12 was deemed 'too much' to test fly in a Spitfire).

( Ta F, for the query reply).

[Flettner]

How rude of me, here is a walk around. You will see the inlet is open to atmosphere so I'm real reluctant to ride it around until that situation is remedied. I'm sure a sleeve engine would be very susceptible to ingress of dirt.
See the plumbers nightmare, many hose clips used. I'm using all four water passages on the cylinder each one aiming at an exhaust port. Starts first pull now! (thankfully).


https://youtu.be/TmXFkbD3s5g

[Frits Overmars]

The pipes are giving the engine a cuddle. Ain't that sweet? It makes me want to knit a sweater for it. Anybody got some spare steel wool? :D

[Flettner]

The pipes are giving the engine a cuddle. Ain't that sweet? It makes me want to knit a sweater for it. Anybody got some spare steel wool? :D

So long as it doesn't make it's own steel wool:eek5:

A tube from the air cleaner to the carburetor will have to be made up and somehow spliced onto the rubber boot that protrudes from the airbox. I guess fiberglass would be the best route. I've never worked with fiberglass (horrible stuff) but best I learn. First steep, make a male shape to glass onto I'd imagine.

[Michael Moore]

I've made a bit more progress (with minor setbacks) on the patterns for my replica Webco CT-1 head. After I fettle the lower urethane pattern I'll start on the flasks/match plates/feed system patterns.

http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?12480-CNC-patterns-another-motorcycle-cylinder-head&p=195446&viewfull=1#post195446

[Hemi Makutu]

So long as it doesn't make it's own steel wool:eek5:

A tube from the air cleaner to the carburetor will have to be made up and somehow spliced onto the rubber boot that protrudes from the airbox. I guess fiberglass would be the best route. I've never worked with fiberglass (horrible stuff) but best I learn. First steep, make a male shape to glass onto I'd imagine.


F, likely some plumbing/air con place will have something on the shelf that should go close..

Industrial air filters inc' foam - are also a budget alternative.

www.ryobi.com.au/products/details/expand-it-3-x-foam-filters-heavy-duty

Build a chicken-wire, (or similar broad gauge gauze) cage to shape/fit, & slip one of those fat filters over it?

[Flettner]

One of the problems is the bloody single shock right in the way. The airfilter pipe must be curved and oval. I would like to use the original airfilter/airbox as they work real well. This air system will be in use for many engine configurations so l want it to be nice. So guess what I've been up to today, every hour or so I nip out to the back shed and start the sleeve engine up, just because I can.

[F5 Dave]

My 496 airbox was made from polystyrene glued sheets and carved to fit the frame. Skimcoat of plaster. Fibreglassed over that with epoxy resin as more fuel resistance. Mat gave an OK finish with minimal bog. Cut a hole in the top and dissolved the styrene with thinners/ picking away at it. The plaster took a little while to pick away/ clean out but it was all a lot more lazy than doing it the proper way.

[Hemi Makutu]

One of the problems is the bloody single shock right in the way. The airfilter pipe must be curved and oval. I would like to use the original airfilter/airbox as they work real well. This air system will be in use for many engine configurations so l want it to be nice. So guess what I've been up to today, every hour or so I nip out to the back shed and start the sleeve engine up, just because I can.

Good on ya F, - have you strobed it up ign' timing-wise, or best-guessed it with dial gauge, at static?

What ball-park figures do you figure on, & does the sleeve application require a custom advance curve?

& air-box-wise..

What about a large flexible, but reinforced rubber hose then, such as a truck radiator hose,
- or even a rubber tube cut to shape & bonded over a pre-shaped metal gauze matrix?

[Flettner]

Good on ya F, - have you strobed it up ign' timing-wise, or best-guessed it with dial gauge, at static?

What ball-park figures do you figure on, & does the sleeve application require a custom advance curve?

& air-box-wise..

What about a large flexible, but reinforced rubber hose then, such as a truck radiator hose,
- or even a rubber tube cut to shape & bonded over a pre-shaped metal gauze matrix?

Base timing at 10 degrees same as the 350. I'm using the Kawasaki's ignition but yes need to put the light on it to check

[jasonu]

How rude of me, here is a walk around. You will see the inlet is open to atmosphere so I'm real reluctant to ride it around until that situation is remedied. I'm sure a sleeve engine would be very susceptible to ingress of dirt.
See the plumbers nightmare, many hose clips used. I'm using all four water passages on the cylinder each one aiming at an exhaust port. Starts first pull now! (thankfully).


https://youtu.be/TmXFkbD3s5g

Complete with the obligatory NZ bit o' #8 fence wire...:niceone:

[husaberg]

Complete with the obligatory NZ bit o' #8 fence wire...:niceone:

We call it 4LT (4mm low tensile) now. We use the metric system that all of thew world bar the USA uses:laugh:

[Frits Overmars]

We use the metric system that all of thew world bar the USA uses:laugh::2thumbsup

Now if you guys could decide to ride on the right side of the road, I'd feel right at home :p.

[ken seeber]

:2thumbsup

Now if you guys could decide to ride on the right side of the road, I'd feel right at home :p.

Frits, you might be right, but we wouldn't want you to feel that you had been "left" out.

[husaberg]

:2thumbsup

Now if you guys could decide to ride on the right side of the road, I'd feel right at home :p.

We will consider it straight after the Netherlands adopts metric time.:laugh:

[Frits Overmars]

We will consider it straight after the Netherlands adopts metric time.:laugh:Is that something you've got over there? I want to know all about it! Here we're still struggling with daylight saving nonsens.

[adegnes]

Is that something you've got over there? I want to know all about it! Here we're still struggling with daylight saving nonsens.

+1
Another one for the endless list of stuff that should be a thing of the past, but isn't.
Don't get me started on religion, or war.

[F5 Dave]

Well if we were all taught the 24hr clock instead of the ridiculous am//pm system. . . well I wouldn't have reminder apps going off at 4 in the morning for a start.

[husaberg]

Is that something you've got over there? I want to know all about it! Here we're still struggling with daylight saving nonsens.

It was muted in the late 70's, 100 sec in a minute, 100 minutes in an hour, 10 hours in a day kind of makes sense.
Esp if you make it 10 months a year as well
But you still end up with the 365.25 days in a year.

Day light savings is all about giving people more sunlight to do stuff after work.

[F5 Dave]

And helps sell more faded curtains of course.

[Flettner]

Acerbis 4hour done and dusted. You should see the other guy! Looks like the shape of foot peg? Not mine I hope, funny, just after I was telling some guy (thought I should be wearing knee guards) real men don't need them.

Seems real men do indeed wear them, it's the dickheads (like me) that don't.

[Hemi Makutu]

How'd you pull up today Flettner?
Pretty good effort - doing the 4 hours...

[Flettner]

Not really the place to be going on about this but, bit of a problem with the starts on these 4 hour's, I like to arrive early to get the plum spot for the start and I'm usually within the first two or three on the line. As the start time gets close and there are three or four rows deep of bikes some smartarse will always push in at the last minute where there is already limited room. This start I had some fat bastard push in next to me so as the gun went off (I knew I would get a better start) my handlebars hit both bikes either side (I had pulled my bike slightly back, so i got them both in the back), in the mayhem I nearly got knocked off (others did). BUT somewhere someone hit my front brake leaver assembly and loosened the banjo fitting (broke the small tang off that is supposed to stop this happening) so you can imagine my surprise/dismay after a long down hill section suddenly when I need it the leaver goes back to the handlebars not very funny. Hit the gate at the bottom and got latched into it. Took a while unlock myself from the bloody gate then a slowish first lap with heavy rear brake usage. Next year I'm putting an electric fence up round my bike so no pushing in! Might use my 60,000 V cdi to power it too :msn-wink: Bastards. Nevermind it was a good day anyway subsequent laps were much more fun after brake surgery, that's my story anyway.

Enough bullshit, back to cylinder/engine making.

[Grumph]

I had wondered why you described it as the "acerbic 4 hour"...

That shit should be covered at riders briefing. Sounds nearly as bad as the old Greymouth setup where no grid positions were allocated and it was first one round on the warmup lap...More fell off on the warmup lap than the races proper.

[Flettner]

I had wondered why you described it as the "acerbic 4 hour"...

That shit should be covered at riders briefing. Sounds nearly as bad as the old Greymouth setup where no grid positions were allocated and it was first one round on the warmup lap...More fell off on the warmup lap than the races proper.

Who thought that one up:eek:

[TZ350]

... bit of a problem with the starts on these 4 hour's, I like to arrive early to get the plum spot for the start and I'm usually within the first two or three on the line. As the start time gets close and there are three or four rows deep of bikes some smartarse will always push in at the last minute where there is already limited room. This start I had some fat bastard push in next to me so as the gun went off (I knew I would get a better start) my handlebars hit both bikes either side (I had pulled my bike slightly back, so i got them both in the back), in the mayhem I nearly got knocked off (others did).

Totally love it ....... :drinknsin.... "Fuck Them".

[Grumph]

Who thought that one up:eek:

Well Husa's dad let it happen....wait for the screams, LOL....

It wasn't until the late Ray Shearman and I started doing the first few rows on the day for the club that it got better.
AFAIK they're still only doing the first 2 or 3 rows of each class.

[husaberg]

Well Husa's dad let it happen....wait for the screams, LOL....

It wasn't until the late Ray Shearman and I started doing the first few rows on the day for the club that it got better.
AFAIK they're still only doing the first 2 or 3 rows of each class.

Hehe there was a few times i did sneak myself to the front row in formula races as well.helps to know the starters.
Remember GMR is a classic fun race shakedown meeting, we are not racing for sheep stations....tm Ray Sherman every riders briefing he ever gave.
Pretty sure other than the first races of the day that were always a lottery, the marshalling was meant to be how they finished the last race.

[Flettner]

Glen, the box has been opened:shit:
Everything seems in order:msn-wink:
Be keen to see how they cast, I'll show the setup and cast on here?

[Grumph]

Is that warped Core box usable - if that's what it is....

[Flettner]

The one that looked like a bird box ,yes all the boxes are warped a bit. But a bit of pressure will close the gaps up, the big vice. It will work ok.

[Flettner]

Power valve for the 360 engine, blade type.

[Flettner]

The idea is to cut a gear rack straight into the valve blade with support rollers on the back side. A shaft with a gear made into it and there you have it, turn the shaft, simple powervalve action. Hooked up to an R1 servo I guess as it works well on the Kawasaki. Also I will put in an ultimate back up stop (on the valve itself) so the valve can never fall into the piston, if the gear mechanism ever shit's itself.

[Hemi Makutu]

Flettner, is there any possibility of doing such a P-V set up as a potential 'bolt on' - to convert earlier non P-V cylinders?

[Flettner]

Flettner, is there any possibility of doing such a P-V set up as a potential 'bolt on' - to convert earlier non P-V cylinders?

Anything is possible, but it would be difficult. You would be better off to make new cylinders with valve capability already cast in. Water sealing would be an issue. Casting new cylinders would also give you the ability to upgrade the ports to today's spec. It's not that difficult to cast cylinders, as seen earlier in this thread just some time and patience. (and some plastic beads)

[Hemi Makutu]

Cheers Flettner, & you are of course correct..

- I was idly thinking of the way its done - machining old air-cooled barrels to slot in big reed valve inlet boxes..

[Flettner]

Cheers Flettner, & you are of course correct..

- I was idly thinking of the way its done - machining old air-cooled barrels to slot in big reed valve inlet boxes..

I assume you are thinking of replacement Kawasaki triple cylinders? Cast new ones and you could have it all, big reeds, power valve, eye ports and well shaped transfers. And nikasil bores. The trick would be make them still 'similar' to the old ones to look at.

[Hemi Makutu]

Well F, looking at the recently repro'd H2 heads/dry clutch conversion & what they go for..
Dunno about the nikasil bore though, due to sleeve thickness/rigidity issues on the H2.

These guys seem reasonable re-sleeve price-wise.. www.advancedsleeve.com

[ken seeber]

SLIDER EXHAUST(s): Here is one of the three, so hopefully before weekend get the laser cut items.

Been so bloody busy of late.:whocares:

However Fletto, I had an idea. Could I send over the paper cones and get you to cast these (using the "yet to be perfected" lost paper investment casting technique) in 1.0mm malleable mild steel.

Thanks. Cheque is in the mail already. :killingme

325431

[Flettner]

No problem Ken, just send the papers and I'll roll them up, on the roller thingy.

[Hemi Makutu]

Dobee a doobee or what eh, Ken.. that's a real fat smoking requisite..

[Hemi Makutu]

Seems there are sufficient numbers of classic Norton aficionados - willing to pay heaps for a repro cyl head production run...

http://roadnrace.com.au/servicing.php

For comparison, here is another Aussie made replacement head for a niche market, but for ~AU$ 3,000- you get quite a bit more stuff..

http://www.chiheads.com.au/shop/heads/hemi-cylinder-heads/hemi-cylinder-head/

[Flettner]

OK, back to cylinder making, no more riding for the F9 for a while. I will be casting in LM13 and as such am buying in some more ingots (40kg) ish. Anyone else want some? $5 a Kg to me plus GST I expect. There are mountains of it to be had as it was all headed to the Aussie car industry but not now. Anyway if interested PM me.

[Flettner]

Water jacket pattern, made in thirds, easier to make.

[Flettner]

Water core box bottom half made. Next step is to paint everything in wax then press the top half on with a shit load of Bondifill to take the shape. The gaps you can see in picture two are where the aluminium will fill (when the cores are sand) . The beads will go on top of these water core shapes once three are made (from this original core box) and glued in place.

[breezy]

Water core box bottom half made. Next step is to paint everything in wax then press the top half on with a shit load of Bondifill to take the shape. The gaps you can see in picture two are where the aluminium will fill (when the cores are sand) . The beads will go on top of these water core shapes once three are made (from this original core box) and glued in place.


These patterns are killing me!!


i remember when leaving school i had a little exam with the construction industry training board to see if i was stupid enough to be trained as an electrician. they had one test that showed a shape and then five others of the same shape which had been rotated or shown in a different position, a small description of how the first shape had been moved around followed and you had to pick one of the following five which matched the description.. the examiner told me i had failed that particular test quite badly but still felt i was in fact stupid enough to have an apprenticeship. Every time i see these pattern shapes i have a flash back to then , my head starts screaming.. i still takes me an age to figure out how it all comes together. is it just me ? :brick::wacko::facepalm:

[Flettner]

Frits, this will be an interesting cylinder. It's your FOS but with some ryger high pressure ports as well, only three as the other three are direct to atmosphere. Might not be apparent yet but the under piston volume will be important. I've set it up so as to use the HCCI top end on it if I want to. Will use pulsed injection into the crank case (under piston) via the direct to cylinder ports. Direct to cylinder ports are double use, also piston port to the crank case. I think I've worked out how to promote HCCI using the squish area to safely stop it happening before TDC.
Breezy I too was dumb enough to be put into an apprenticeship. Headmaster said to me as I left high school 'well at least you won't be a drain on society' bastard:motu:

[Flettner]

Now I can make as many cores as I want, sand or resin. The water core box is done.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, this will be an interesting cylinder. It's your FOS but with some ryger high pressure ports as well, only three as the other three are direct to atmosphere.
Might not be apparent yet but the under piston volume will be important.Important as in 'big' or important as in 'critical' or important as in 'small'? In the latter case, will you also employ your epicycloid crankshaft?
In any case you're bringing together a lot of interesting ideas. Carry on!

[breezy]

Frits, this will be an interesting cylinder. It's your FOS but with some ryger high pressure ports as well, only three as the other three are direct to atmosphere. Might not be apparent yet but the under piston volume will be important. I've set it up so as to use the HCCI top end on it if I want to. Will use pulsed injection into the crank case (under piston) via the direct to cylinder ports. Direct to cylinder ports are double use, also piston port to the crank case. I think I've worked out how to promote HCCI using the squish area to safely stop it happening before TDC.
Breezy I too was dumb enough to be put into an apprenticeship. Headmaster said to me as I left high school 'well at least you won't be a drain on society' bastard:motu:

Flettner, will you be injecting pre mix or just fuel? you mention crankcase.. will you not be isolating the traditional crankcase area?

[Flettner]

Flettner, will you be injecting pre mix or just fuel? you mention crankcase.. will you not be isolating the traditional crankcase area?

Yes there will be a separated crank case to under piston. I was just going to inject standard twostroke fuel (help the ring and just because) but ultimately it would be good to just use straight fuel. Start safe first.
The bloody epicycloid crank, the anodizes wreaked my alloy rod and I haven't made a new one yet. BUT I will as I need to use something to make the piston rod go straight up and down. I have another method (not the leaver arm/beam) but that will require starting from scratch, never the less a worthy opponent to the epicycloid I think.

[Frits Overmars]

The bloody epicycloid crank, the anodizes wreaked my alloy rod and I haven't made a new one yet. BUT I will as I need to use something to make the piston rod go straight up and down. I have another method (not the leaver arm/beam) but that will require starting from scratch, never the less a worthy opponent to the epicycloid I think.You sure do know how to keep me curious!

[Flettner]

God that is depressing, Mold release decides not to work (AGAIN) weekends work down the drain, start again! Only I'm not sure I'm just over it.This 655 is just shit. I guess I've calmed down a bit now, just start again and use a shit load of release agent next time.

[WilDun]

God that is depressing, Mold release decides not to work (AGAIN) weekends work down the drain, start again! Only I'm not sure I'm just over it.This 655 is just shit. I guess I've calmed down a bit now, just start again and use a shit load of release adgent next time.

That is a shame, still, I'll know what not to use now!
BTW - why not use HT steel tube (suitably hardened and ground) for your piston rod?

[Flettner]

That is a shame, still, I'll know what not to use now!
BTW - why not use HT steel tube (suitably hardened and ground) for your piston rod?

Have thought about it, but aluminium would still be lighter. This thing could rev fairly hard. 30,001 rpm ;)

[Frits Overmars]

Have thought about it, but aluminium would still be lighter. This thing could rev fairly hard. 30,001 rpm ;)Better stay on the safe side Neil. Like 29.999 rpm :msn-wink:.

[breezy]

Yes there will be a separated crank case to under piston. I was just going to inject standard twostroke fuel (help the ring and just because) but ultimately it would be good to just use straight fuel. Start safe first.
The bloody epicycloid crank, the anodizes wreaked my alloy rod and I haven't made a new one yet. BUT I will as I need to use something to make the piston rod go straight up and down. I have another method (not the leaver arm/beam) but that will require starting from scratch, never the less a worthy opponent to the epicycloid I think.

i would imagine that the oil percentage in the fuel mix could be leaned down quite a way with not having to worry about the bottom end area.?

[Flettner]

Better stay on the safe side Neil. Like 29.999 rpm :msn-wink:.

I'm over it, I'm at the acceptance stage now (acceptance I'm a dumb ass). I'll get back into the mold building this weekend again, this time pay more attention to the finish and more release agent. This disaster would never have happened with Rencast!!
I have had this 'alternative crank' verified by an 'off shore expert' and it seems it might be workable, certainly better than the epicycloid. Interestingly it also acts as a balance shaft and it's much easier to build with no internal gear. Epicycloid might shake a bit I think.

[Flettner]

i would imagine that the oil percentage in the fuel mix could be leaned down quite a way with not having to worry about the bottom end area.?

And no piston friction.

[Flettner]

Better stay on the safe side Neil. Like 29.999 rpm :msn-wink:.

Quite safe at the moment, 0 rpm. It's frustrating knowing what I want and knowing how to do it but TIME and work (read that as need for money) just keep getting in the way. I know it's the same for everyone, never the less it would be good to just rip into it with no distractions.

[WilDun]

Quite safe at the moment, 0 rpm. It's frustrating knowing what I want and knowing how to do it but TIME and work (read that as need for money) just keep getting in the way. I know it's the same for everyone, never the less it would be good to just rip into it with no distractions.

For a start, nobody who seriously considers alternatives and is able see beyond the flashing lights, sparkling chrome and frills of today's market offerings, is "dumb"

The problem with research is that it can't be done at a profit, but if it eventually looks like winning through, the profit guys (read vultures) move in and capitalize on it, as many good engineers have found! :facepalm:

[Flettner]

Mmmmm F81M copy cast head. See the detail that has transferred across. Modified to central plug. CC601 heat treated.

[eldog]

The problem with research is that it can't be done at a profit, but if it eventually looks like winning through, the profit guys (read vultures) move in and capitalize on it, as many good engineers have found! :facepalm:

seen that a few times recently.....

after finding out the problem areas, the vultures swoop in and take over the struggling company, put a few notes in, get it going, all the while asset stripping etc. then wait and sell the 'profitable company' to some other poor sap.
while those who went out on a limb and support and struggled to get paid from the first burnt out owner, watch helpless.

the vultures moving on having made their money

[eldog]

Quite safe at the moment, 0 rpm. It's frustrating knowing what I want and knowing how to do it but TIME and work (read that as need for money) just keep getting in the way. I know it's the same for everyone, never the less it would be good to just rip into it with no distractions.

no matter how hard you try, sometimes it doesn't work, no matter who you are. things just go wrong.

its when things all come together and your plan works that make the struggle worth while...


The last couple of weeks has just been going from bad to worse. but every now and then things have picked up and worked.
back to work I go.

[Yow Ling]

Better stay on the safe side Neil. Like 29.999 rpm :msn-wink:.

a thousand times less , yes that sure is the safe side

[Lightbulb]

God that is depressing, Mold release decides not to work (AGAIN) weekends work down the drain, start again! Only I'm not sure I'm just over it.This 655 is just shit. I guess I've calmed down a bit now, just start again and use a shit load of release agent next time.

What release agent are / were you using?

[Frits Overmars]

a thousand times less , yes that sure is the safe sideAre you accusing me of using a decimal point Yow Ling ?:2guns:

[Yow Ling]

Are you accusing me of using a decimal point Yow Ling ?:2guns:

No , just commenting on the margin of safety that you allowed. Last time I checked decimal points were still legal

[Frits Overmars]

Last time I checked decimal points were still legalMust have been some time ago :rolleyes:.
You will be aware, of course, that mixing metric and imperial units and customs can have hilarious consequences, like losing an umpteen-million-dollar satellite before it could even reach orbit :eek5:.

[Flettner]

The most useful tool for pattern making, nice new sand paper. About once every two years, yum.

[Flettner]

I win, water jacket in place. Not as easy as it looks, it's been a fight all the way and it still needs a little modification as the water jackets don't fit quite right.
A word of warning, don't use gum as a pattern wood, it's hard to work with, stringy, cracks easy and tough to sand. Stick to pine or macrocarpa.

[WilDun]

I win, water jacket in place. Not as easy as it looks, it's been a fight all the way and it still needs a little modification as the water jackets don't fit quite right.
A word of warning, don't use gum as a pattern wood, it's hard to work with, stringy, cracks easy and tough to sand. Stick to pine or macrocarpa.

So I guess that would apply to most hardwoods? I saved a few pieces from a plum? tree I cut up with the chainsaw at my son's place and put it under the bench to dry out. It was so bloody hard there were sparks coming off the chainsaw! I thought it might have been good for turning but having just looked at it, there appears to be a lot of cracking.

In your pictures, are three of those ports for inlets? and three for exhaust?

[Pursang]

I have had this 'alternative crank' verified by an 'off shore expert' and it seems it might be workable, certainly better than the epicycloid. Interestingly it also acts as a balance shaft and it's much easier to build with no internal gear. Epicycloid might shake a bit I think.

This is nicely balanced and would be relatively straight forward to build.

https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/39f10f00286d9a93f386902126d62a2e/large.gif

Depending on the pivot positions, link lengths and direction of rotation you could play with asymmetrical stroke rates & dwells.
The 'magical' primary reduction of the crank gears is pretty cool too.

Also, one of the linear bearing suppliers was offering ceramic coated, aluminium rod, tougher than anodise.

Cheers, Daryl.

"First they tell you you're wrong, and they can prove it.
Then they tell you you're right, but it's not important.
Then they tell you it is important, but they knew it all along."
Charles Kettering.

[WilDun]

This is nicely balanced and would be relatively straight forward to build.
Depending on the pivot positions, link lengths and direction of rotation you could play with asymmetrical stroke rates & dwells.
The 'magical' primary reduction of the crank gears is pretty cool too.

Also, one of the linear bearing suppliers was offering ceramic coated, aluminium rod, tougher than anodise.

Cheers, Daryl.

I like that one Daryl - got a lot of possibilities (and there are other ones too). Not so sure about the primary "reduction" though!!
Maybe that illustration is meant to be pump mode. :)

[Flettner]

So I guess that would apply to most hardwoods? I saved a few pieces from a plum? tree I cut up with the chainsaw at my son's place and put it under the bench to dry out. It was so bloody hard there were sparks coming off the chainsaw! I thought it might have been good for turning but having just looked at it, there appears to be a lot of cracking.

In your pictures, are three of those ports for inlets? and three for exhaust?

Three ports are inlet direct to the cylinder AND feed the 'under piston' (formally known as the crank case) at TDC, piston port. The other three you see are exhausts, under the exhausts (not easily seen) are three more boost ports, for want of a better description. These aim into the combustion chamber.

[Flettner]

I like that one Daryl - got a lot of possibilities (and there are other ones too). Not so sure about the primary "reduction" though!!
Maybe that illustration is meant to be pump mode. :)
Yes there must be dozens of layouts, but which one is best?
Yes my 'new system' I'm embarrassed to say was a dud. Off shore expert pulled me up on it, he was right. Never mind there are others.

[Drew]

This is nicely balanced and would be relatively straight forward to build.

https://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/39f10f00286d9a93f386902126d62a2e/large.gif

Depending on the pivot positions, link lengths and direction of rotation you could play with asymmetrical stroke rates & dwells.
The 'magical' primary reduction of the crank gears is pretty cool too.

Also, one of the linear bearing suppliers was offering ceramic coated, aluminium rod, tougher than anodise.

Cheers, Daryl.

"First they tell you you're wrong, and they can prove it.
Then they tell you you're right, but it's not important.
Then they tell you it is important, but they knew it all along."
Charles Kettering.
Stopping the beam from bending would mean it need to be pretty heavy.

[husaberg]

Stopping the beam from bending would mean it need to be pretty heavy.

I don''t believe It needs to have a beam at all, imagine it, as being the skirt of a piston.

[Drew]

I don''t believe It needs to have a beam at all, image it, as being the skirt of a piston.

I was kinda thinking of just connecting both rods straight to the slug. Thrust forces cancel each other out, same result and a piece remobed from the puzzle.

[Ocean1]

Yes there must be dozens of layouts, but which one is best?
Yes my 'new system' I'm embarrassed to say was a dud. Off shore expert pulled me up on it, he was right. Never mind there are others.

If you could keep the mass down...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/haPD_JapBa0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Flettner]

I feel so pretty in my beads and all:2thumbsup

[Pursang]

I feel so pretty in my beads and all:2thumbsup

I had a girl friend who was quite partial to receiving a String of Pearls ;)

Cheers, Daryl

[Pursang]

Stopping the beam from bending would mean it need to be pretty heavy.

Or at least well designed, plenty of room between the flywheels to triangulate the beam.

Plus the conrods, flywheels & bearings can be 1/2 the size/mass/strength of regular ones.

The central rod simplifies sealing a transfer case between the sump & the piston.

I like this one cos it's pretty simple and I could build it in my workshop or adegnes'

Cheers, Daryl

[Frits Overmars]

I don't believe It needs to have a beam at all, imagine it, as being the skirt of a piston.Like so Husa?
326397
You could even use a forked small end on one of the con rods and fit a regular piston.

[tjbw]

Like so Husa?
326397
You could even use a forked small end on one of the con rods and fit a regular piston.

Snap - Neander engine, actually is yours a Neander prototype too Frits?

[ken seeber]

The pic that Frits showed clearly shows two “piston pins”. Note that these seem to operate within a horizontal sleeve as per this pic.

326403

I can think that one reason they have used the horizontal sleeve is to allow for geometric mismatching of components that could result in some serious unwanted motion of the piston during its travels. The cost of this is weight. Another reason for the twin pin layout is that it serves to lessen the extreme angles of the rods that can be seen in the classic Lanchester twin /single pin layout. Could be other reasons though. Obviously the engine design and mfg are not old.

326401

[tjbw]

The pic that Frits showed clearly shows two “piston pins”. Note that these seem to operate within a horizontal sleeve as per this pic.

326403

I can think that one reason they have used the horizontal sleeve is to allow for geometric mismatching of components that could result in some serious unwanted motion of the piston during its travels. The cost of this is weight. Another reason for the twin pin layout is that it serves to lessen the extreme angles of the rods that can be seen in the classic Lanchester twin /single pin layout. Could be other reasons though. Obviously the engine design and mfg are not old.

326401

I think I prefer your patent to this one:

[Drew]

Or at least well designed, plenty of room between the flywheels to triangulate the beam.

Plus the conrods, flywheels & bearings can be 1/2 the size/mass/strength of regular ones.

The central rod simplifies sealing a transfer case between the sump & the piston.

I like this one cos it's pretty simple and I could build it in my workshop or adegnes'

Cheers, Daryl
Both conrods can connect straight to the post coming off the bottom of the piston. The beam isn't required.

Same result.

[Hemi Makutu]

www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatTwo.htm

[Pursang]

Both conrods can connect straight to the post coming off the bottom of the piston. The beam isn't required.

Same result.

"Depending on the pivot positions, link lengths and direction of rotation you could play with asymmetrical stroke rates & dwells."

Similar perhaps. The motion would be different.
More dwell at the top or bottom or both? Fast up & Slow down or visa versa? Good or bad?

Rods will be angled when piston is TDC & BDC.
(Could be a good thing if point of max cyl pressure corresponds with max rod/crank leverage angle. Or not.)

I suspect that the Rods will need more beam strength and bigger eyes as the load is not purely tension/compression when approaching T&BDC (Full Stop)
(perhaps the other rod will balance this? Or not)

The perfect(ish) balance situation will change. A problem? Probably similar to a regular engine.

Lots to consider.:scratch:

Cheers, Daryl

[Brett S]

Twin cranks, common pin.
Here's a pic of a graph from early Ryger thoughts hence the silly 90mm conrod length.
It works out to be roughly Ø46mm stroke per crank to achieve the Ø54mm piston stroke.
326413

[Frits Overmars]

Manolis also has a curious 'Miller cycle' valve-in-tall-piston 2T design. www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatTwo.htmI'm afraid Manolis redefined pumping losses here; the mass of air or mixture moving in and out of the upper sub-piston volume won't cooperate without a struggle.
And I wonder how he plans to operate that valve in the piston. Hire a very small Japanese gentleman?
I'll gladly admit that some of Manolis' ideas are brilliant but I fear that he is completely unaware of (or ignoring) thermal, leakage and flow issues.


Twin cranks, common pin.
Here's a pic of a graph from early Ryger thoughts hence the silly 90mm conrod length. It works out to be roughly Ø46mm stroke per crank to achieve the Ø54mm piston stroke.
326413Good job Brett :niceone:.

[Pursang]

Twin cranks, common pin.
.....
It works out to be roughly Ø46mm stroke per crank to achieve the Ø54mm piston stroke.


Is this a Good thing or a Bad thing?

Cheers, Daryl

[WilDun]

Is this a Good thing or a Bad thing?

Cheers, Daryl

Probably the important thing is whether the power stroke (ie downstroke) is on the inner part of the crank(s) or the outer.
The inner route would be best from the point of view of power stroke because of the fact that the force would more in line with the piston, but then this might be incompatible with port timing.
If this route were to be used on the compression stroke however it would achieve quick return to TDC and perhaps asymetric port timing? (early closing). However, the outer (slower) route for the power stroke would then involve having high angular forces on the rod.
So,as I see it, conditions with this twin crank layout are really opposite to what is required for two stroke operation!

And ........ Of course, as always, I could be wrong!

[ken seeber]

Slider exhausts. Finally getting some time.

This is the newly devised Oz cone forming method, called Hindenburging.

Testing (nil) so far reveals:
• Better low end power
• Better top end
• More over-rev
• Improved midrange power. Comes off berms much stronger than 4 strokes.
• Less smoke and lower emissions
• Reduced fuel consumption at all speeds
• Less exhaust noise
• Increased durability of engine
• Longer reed valve life
• Easier to install
• Easier starting
• Lower cost
• Prompt delivery from factory

326497

[Flettner]

Progress, perhaps.

[Frits Overmars]

This is the newly devised Oz cone forming method, called Hindenburging.Yes, I see what you mean, Ken. When building the Hindenburg, they did not have a mandrel with sufficient diameter at hand, so the outside shape ended up forty-agonal instead of smoothly circular. What's your excuse? :devil2:
326504

[WilDun]

Slider exhausts. Finally getting some time.

This is the newly devised Oz cone forming method, called Hindenburging.

Well I reckon you're quite a good Hindenburger - and artistic. I don't think I could copy that effect!.
What will the gases think? - bet they won't even notice, they'll be too busy trying to get their heads around the changing port timing.!

[Flettner]

Now to sort this mess out.

[WilDun]

Just trying to think ....."cavity "is the grey stuff? - but trying to visualize how exhaust and inlet cavities are arranged, where they go and what they align with, may take a little time (at least for me!).- but I'll get there!

Too much for my old brain ...... you'll just have to send me a detailed drawing! :confused:

[Flettner]

Just trying to think ....."cavity "is the grey stuff? - but trying to visualize how exhaust and inlet cavities are arranged, where they go and what they align with, may take a little time (at least for me!).- but I'll get there!

Too much for my old brain ...... you'll just have to send me a detailed drawing! :confused:

All the tapered sticky out bits are core prints, sand against sand, molten aluminium can not go there. These are to hold the cores in place.
The cavities you see can either be just sealed off, cast solid or I could make it hollow to save weight and cast better. Thick bits like this in the middle of thin bits all around is generally not a good idea. At the end of the day how much time do you spend on a test piece anyway.
A drawing ?? I learn't years ago that is a process you can do without, just a wast of time. You will see when I build the sand mold up.

[WilDun]

All the tapered sticky out bits are core prints,
A drawing ?? I learn't years ago that is a process you can do without, just a wast of time.

Yes, you have just answered the questions I was about to ask (eg coreprints etc.) and I guess the inner tapered knob and the concentric ring on the top of the pattern are both coreprints to support the inner cavity cores (as in your first photo). But mainly it is the layout of the ports which intrigues me and trying to figure out the convoluted passages.
As I see it, that pattern and cores takes a lot of thought and a lot of removable sections to achieve satisfactory results! - very interesting.
I knew of course you wouldn't be using drawings as such and if you did, I'm sure you would to keep them to yourself! (always a good policy!).

Also, I guess you will only have to make one corebox each for the inlet and exhaust cavity cores? ie assuming that each exhaust is identical to the others, the same thing in the case of the inlets?

[Flettner]

Almost there, a few holes to fill in and a decision on what to do underneath. Core boxes with respective core shapes.

[Frits Overmars]

Ah, finally something in those pictures of yours that I recognize: the hot glue gun. Marvellous invention; I'm putting my car back together with it :p.

[WilDun]

Almost there, a few holes to fill in and a decision on what to do underneath. Core boxes with respective core shapes.

Thanks Neil, Now everything is clear! the most confusing thing (at first sight) in the earlier pictures is the addition of the coreprint patterns which often are just as big as the cores themselves! - ok, now you can carry on, I've caught up. :rolleyes:

[Flettner]

Yes, should have hidden that, not what a real patternmaker uses. Or mechanic in your case Frits.

[ken seeber]

Maybe Frits has got one of his mate’s power piped Trabbies and the only glue that sticks to the placky door panels is from the hot glue gun.;)

[WilDun]

Yes, should have hidden that, not what a real patternmaker uses. Or mechanic in your case Frits.

John Britten used one to glue together the aluminium wire to form the mesh he made up for holding the clay on his fairing pattern.

[Frits Overmars]

Maybe Frits has got one of his mate’s power piped Trabbies and the only glue that sticks to the placky door panels is from the hot glue gun.;)You might be right about nothing else sticking to those panels, but I don't own a Trabbie. I've been playing with the idea of getting one and putting in a Rotax E-TEC engine. No-one would hear the difference while waiting for the traffic lights :whistle:.
But then a mate took me for a ride in a race-winning Trabant and that cured me completely. Doing 160 kmh on a 4 meter wide rural road in a 'car' with no wheelbase, suspension or brakes to speak of is not my idea of being in control.
326530

[Flettner]

The bottom filled in, core prints sticking out. Paint is good for highlighting blemishes.

[Flettner]

So the granddaughter wants to know how stuff is made, well she probably regrets asking now but 'we' decided to build (cast) a rocket, maybe the German in me? But anyway WE will up date with pictures of progress. Hot glue gun next. Top will be made in the CNC and screwed on.

[Frits Overmars]

So the granddaughter wants to know how stuff is made, well she probably regrets asking now but 'we' decided to build (cast) a rocket, maybe the German in me?.In case you need a colour scheme:
326548

Or maybe the German in you would prefer this:
326549

[Flettner]

Probably not being fair to the granddaughter as we should be building the rocket useing a three dimensional printer but that is not going to happen on my watch. Posting the making of this rocket should be good in that it will show the use of a single core simple mold. In this case I haven't bothered pouring a new resin part in the core box, I've decided to just use the original part (shape) and build up from there.

[Flettner]

Better give the poor sod that is going to fly this rocket a window to look out

[ken seeber]

Maybe you really want this,

326572

but not this:


326573

:devil2:

[Flettner]

Getting all beaded up

[Flettner]

Our of interest, US chrome will hard chrome onto 7075 and titanium but at a cost. Approx $800 US to plate a titanium tube 36 dia, 150 long. Same tube in 7075 approx $200 US

[Flettner]

Thickness added, 4mm.

[Flettner]

Sand molding box with stuffers to divide into three parts. Pack one first, harden, then pull a stuffer out and repeat. And again for the third side. Fresh sand will not stick to the hardened sand so the hardened sand blocks will separate cleanly.

[WilDun]

Sand molding box with stuffers to divide into three parts. Pack one first, harden, then pull a stuffer out and repeat. And again for the third side. Fresh sand will not stick to the hardened sand so the hardened sand blocks will separate cleanly.

Quite surprised that the fresh sand doesn't stick to the hardened stuff - learning something new here every day! so I guess you are completely sold on using CO2 sand moulds now? Nice to see you have time for the small projects as well.
I am still in disarray and have been for quite a while (since the hospitalization etc at last Christmas / new year) - I need a push to get going again I guess! - but I'll get there.
Ken is nearly as old as me and still going flat out - I'll have to give myself a kick up the ass!!

[Flettner]

Disarray, that's my workshop :laugh: this Christmas everything is getting hauled out of the shed but only some things are going back. Ruthless, now that is another word:facepalm:

[WilDun]

Disarray, that's my workshop :laugh: this Christmas everything is getting hauled out of the shed but only some things are going back. Ruthless, now that is another word:facepalm:

'Ruthless' is not a word in my vocabulary, but if the rest of my family get access to my garage and it's contents then that will be the operative word.
It happened about 5 years ago when we moved house and a lot of my prized possessions mysteriously disappeared including my air compressor and a few other important devices!
Think I'll need to lock up my furnace and foundry stuff as it doesn't look anything like what things 'need' to look like these days, ie bright colours, chrome and sparkling lights!
Maybe I should park it under the lemon tree to make it look better :msn-wink:

[Flettner]

Doctor Neil suggests pattern therapy, sawdust and Bondi fumes, good for you, perhaps not but better than TV :rolleyes:
Plumbago, carbon powder rubbed into the surface of the pattern to make it real slippery against the sand.

[Flettner]

Three piece mold taking shape, mix the sodium silicate at 2.5 to 3 %. Big tube is to make a hole for the runner (inlet) and the small holes made by the welding wire are for gassing the sand, get the gas right into the middle of the sand mold

[Flettner]

Still needs a top and a bottom but without these sand cores inside it would be just one solid cast lump. This is where the core prints do their job holding the core in place so the metal can flow around it. The core prints are the parts of the core that stick out of the mold to the outside. Core prints also act as a vent/conduit to let hot gases out from the core without having the gas go through the molten metal (and buggering it up).

[WilDun]

Still needs a top and a bottom but without these sand cores inside it would be just one solid cast lump. This is where the core prints do their job holding the core in place so the metal can flow around it. The core prints are the parts of the core that stick out of the mold to the outside. Core prints also act as a vent/conduit to let hot gases out from the core without having the gas go through the molten metal (and buggering it up).

Meanwhile, back at the beginners section .......
Finally got my ass into gear and back into the foundry work today - first time in nearly a year! I forced myself to make a new lid for my furnace out of this and that (a few handfuls of refracttory mortar, a few handfuls of coarse river sand for the part where the flames hit and filled the rest with a mixture of ready mixed concrete (courtesy of Placemakers) slightly modified with a few handfuls of polystyrene beads - just for a laugh really!
Very exact science required for this refractory technology! ......... we'll see how it goes anyway! :sweatdrop

Oh, and who do you get the plumbago from ? sure looks good (and slippery).

[Flettner]

Plumbago, I've got a shit load, I'll organise to send you some as well as the LM13. I've got to go to the second round of the Vinduro this weekend at River Head, I'm picking up the LM13 from some guy's back yard on the way home, 100kg. I intend to cast a few cylinders.

[WilDun]

Plumbago, I've got a shit load, I'll organise to send you some as well as the LM13. I've got to go to the second round of the Vinduro this weekend at River Head, I'm picking up the LM13 from some guy's back yard on the way home, 100kg. I intend to cast a few cylinders.

Sounds great but you don't have to send the stuff, I could probably meet you and pick it up from wherever. - Trouble is, where I live (Howick - not near the motorway) is a bit out of your way so I wouldn't expect you to drive out here. You are of course welcome to come and have a cup of coffee or whatever if you think it's worth the extra Kms. ......... might p.m. you with a mobile # later.

[WilDun]

The lid for the furnace actually did turn out to be a laugh, the concrete with the polystyrene beads crumbled like a very dry fruit cake - I wonder who told me that was a good idea? - never mind it can be fixed but I'll leave it for a couple or three days and go from there - there is nothing that can't be resolved!
Now I'll have to force myself to have a go at some patternmaking, also sodium silicate moulding and try out the plumbago technique later. all no doubt with guidance from others, all tips and suggestions welcomed.
Unfortunately these days my body doesn't like to be pushed, but my mind is willing and with a bit of effort it can still get the body do what it wants - ( long may that happy state of affairs last!). :sweatdrop

[Flettner]

All this stuff has to go inside, delicately, not something I'm renound for.

[Flettner]

Got it. Now we wait <_<
I'm casting another 350 cylinder as well, with the water core modification so I can machine to fit a blade type power valve. I have one but need another for the twin cylinder gyro engine. Might even cast a spare for the shelf. Imagine that, stocking spare parts. I would take photos of the assembly but I can't hold everything at once and the sand glue I use goes off relatively quickly. If anyone is interested I could video the next assembly? So you can see how it all fits together.

[WilDun]

If anyone is interested I could video the next assembly? So you can see how it all fits together.

Yep, would very much like to see something like that - it's got to be serious though, flippancy will not be tolerated in this thread!. (nor Waikato beer - ie as a substitute for rum!) ;)

Looklng at the second of the last 4 pictures, it's pretty daunting task for someone like me - maybe I'll try a space rocket first!

What glue do you use for the sand?

[eldog]

Yep, would very much like to see something like that - it's got to be serious though, flippancy will not be tolerated in this thread!. (nor Waikato beer - ie as a substitute for rum!) ;)


+1 for that, interested in what the final result will be like, as I do the odd 3D CAD picture.

[breezy]

[
"anyone is interested I could video the next assembly? So you can see how it all fits together.[/QUOTE]"

yes i would like to see how ... thanks.

[Flettner]

100 kg of LM13 in my shed now, if anyone is interested.
Might have a melt up this weekend.

[Pursang]

100 kg of LM13 in my shed now, if anyone is interested.
Might have a melt up this weekend.

We are All Interested in everything you produce, blows my mind.:drinknsin

[Flettner]

I guess I was meaning if anyone wants some LM13 I have it available.

[WilDun]

I guess I was meaning if anyone wants some LM13 I have it available.

OK, I've set the ball rolling and got my piece of Flettner LM 13 and also some Flettner graphite - all looking good but I've still got to get myself shifted and into foundry mode after approx. 1 year off, and I'm pretty shiftless at the best of times!
I did manage to get myself moving a couple of years ago and made a furnace, burner and tongs etc. (all off the top of my head and were designed as I went along) all eventually successful as well! - so if some of you guys are interested but scared to take the plunge into foundry work, just get as much info as you can from this forum (ie from Flettner, not me) and other relevant people.
Force yourself to try, but just be careful and use common sense with safety, making sure all the gear is on hand, ready and easily accessed when you do a melt and you will find that it's not as hard to do as you might think! - just keep thinking ahead all the time.

BTW I remember being told by someone a lot of years ago, that with high silicon ally (such as LM 13), if it it is subjected to more than one melt you can expect silicon to gradually get depleted (ie burnt out) with every subsequent melt - guess it must be true or he wouldn't have told me!

[Flettner]

OK, I've set the ball rolling and got my piece of Flettner LM 13 and also some Flettner graphite - all looking good but I've still got to get myself shifted and into foundry mode after approx. 1 year off, and I'm pretty shiftless at the best of times!
I did manage to get myself moving a couple of years ago and made a furnace, burner and tongs etc. (all off the top of my head and were designed as I went along) all eventually successful as well! - so if some of you guys are interested but scared to take the plunge into foundry work, just get as much info as you can from this forum (ie from Flettner, not me) and other relevant people.
Force yourself to try, but just be careful and use common sense with safety, making sure all the gear is on hand, ready and easily accessed when you do a melt and you will find that it's not as hard to do as you might think! - just keep thinking ahead all the time.

BTW I remember being told by someone a lot of years ago, that with high silicon ally (such as LM 13), if it it is subjected to more than one melt you can expect silicon to gradually get depleted (ie burnt out) with every subsequent melt - guess it must be true or he wouldn't have told me!

Yes LM13 is easily damaged by getting it too hot or as you say remelt. You can use a product called Navac (sodium I think) melted in straight before pour to modify the alloy and 'bring it back' to life. Sodium is easily (quickly) lost, so this process must be done at the last minute. This alloy I have is strontium modified (much more durable) so it should be good without Navac first time around. You know, shit you learn on the way.

[WilDun]

Dragged out my furnace today and I see that I've dented the casing a little, but I'll just carry on as before, it'll be fine!
The lid I have just made and has started to crumble is being patched up with mortar on the outside, so It'll be fine too.

Now I can't find the bloody burner and pressure reducing valve, I'm sure I put it somewhere so I could find it easily ....... don't think anybody would have pinched it, still, you never know!

Thought someone had pinched my gas cylinder (the 9kg one) as well, until I remembered that I had put it in the gas heater I was using in my workshop/laundry last winter! - so "that's fine" I thought, took it down to the service station to have it filled today and .......guess what ........ yes, of course it had expired last month!!

Now, where did I put those tongs?

It's Christmas time again but I don't go shopping, unlike certain others - I don't have to go out to find my chaos, it comes to me at home! :rolleyes:

And that's all without Rum, Whiskey or anything else! :msn-wink:

[Flettner]

Dragged out my furnace today and I see that I've dented the casing a little, but I'll just carry on as before, it'll be fine!
The lid I have just made and has started to crumble is being patched up with mortar on the outside, so It'll be fine too.

Now I can't find the bloody burner and pressure reducing valve, I'm sure I put it somewhere so I could find it easily ....... don't think anybody would have pinched it, still, you never know!

Thought someone had pinched my gas cylinder (the 9kg one) as well, until I remembered that I had put it in the gas heater I was using in my workshop/laundry last winter! - so "that's fine" I thought, took it down to the service station to have it filled today and .......guess what ........ yes, of course it had expired last month!!

Now, where did I put those tongs?

It's Christmas time again but I don't go shopping, unlike certain others - I don't have to go out to find my chaos, it comes to me at home! :rolleyes:

And that's all without Rum, Whiskey or anything else! :msn-wink:

Me too, I'm looking at a melt up this weekend but I too am having trouble locating all the bits and pieces. I've got three rocket molds ready and would like to make three more to make a melt worth it. I'll just use remelt CC601. I had a 350 cylinder mold almost ready too but late at night trying to unbox it, I dropped it onto the bench. buggered! Sooo (he says calmly), we start again. I'll get some pictures up of an assembly of a rocket mold.

[ken seeber]

[QUOTE=ken seeber;1130975849]


:-)
This is a older render.
I only work with my zortrax printer.
The previously posted corebox are for this cylinder, but I need to reprint them in case of layout changes.

Polinizei,
Just wondering how you went with your 3D printed coreboxes
Cheers, Ken

[Flettner]

Mixing the sodium silicate and sand. Mold box and stuffers, one third packed, with gassing holes inserted.

[Flettner]

Using the CO2 gas. Bugger, out of gas, will have to see if I can get a new bottle tomorrow.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wZVyHgzYo

[WilDun]

Using the CO2 gas. Bugger, out of gas, will have to see if I can get a new bottle tomorrow.

What RPM does that sand mixing drum rotate at?

Nifty "gassing tool" - as I see it, it's an air gun attached to a rubber plunger?

Too bad about the cylinder mould!

[WilDun]

Simple Hardness Test

I like it, great idea! :niceone:

[Flettner]

Got more gas. Looking at the bottom of the mold, wood shape is the gate from the runner into the rocket fins.

[Flettner]

See the gap left by installing the plastic beads to the patern. This is where the metal will run.
Will, you would probably guess, drum RPM is 42, the answer to the universe and everything. Some might know.

[Flettner]

The aftermath, four rockets, one cylinder and about a spot of alloy left over.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hARDXYz2io
They look like neat xmas gifts Neil.

[Flettner]

Fired up the CNC and told it to make me a nose cone, almost looks a bit sinister. Rocket man, good old Elton:nya:

[ken seeber]

The aftermath, four rockets, one cylinder and about a spot of alloy left over.

Excellent Fletto. Expect a call from NASA, or even that big Don himself. :niceone:

Did a bit more on the Slider exhausts, well Hindenburgs really. I'll tell them to be careful of any LM13 rockets that might have gone astray. :thud:

326914

[WilDun]

Today I hauled the furnace outside and lit it up with a low flame to dry out the repaired lid and hoping to hell it doesn't explode. I eventually found my burner after looking everywhere - finally found it filed away under "FOUNDRY" .... duh!
If everything looks ok after an hour I will open up the throttle and fire it properly, then who knows, I might even try a melt and maybe pour some ingots (from my scrap, not Flettner's LM 13) If all that works to plan then I'll have to get serious about patterns and moulds!

NEIL,
Would it be better not to ram it too hard for Silicate sand?
I now have to go and find my CO2 gear - no doubt filed away under lathe tools or somewhere more silly, hang on, it's under 'S' for Sodastream! :rolleyes:

Also, I can't remember what percentage of silicate to sand you use - I know you told us earlier but I can't find it - sorry.

Ken, cones looking good!

[WilDun]

Got her up to nearly full blast now all's well (so far), just hoping all the moisture has dried out of the lid! so as a precaution I decided to wear my welding helmet and gloves - welding helmet is good (with the lid open of course) because it shields your face from the heat and it's possible to have the odd squint into the furnace from above (within reason).

The polystyrene beads which I included in the ordinary concrete mix (in the outer part of the lid) ae now melting out, hope that does'nt cause problems!

OH SHIT! now the lid is starting to smoke! - why did I listen when someone told me to use polystyrene bubbles in the mix?!! - still, she'll be right I reckon.
Will switch it off when the smoke stops (nearly gone now) and start preparing for a melt and pour another day, don't want to get ahead of myself.
I am home alone so maybe I'd better play it safe - but I'm happy so far!

The burner might be able to handle a little more air, then I can up the gas pressure and that should equal more heat - the 1mm jet seems to be handling things so far, so out with the milling cutter to enlarge the slots, just like developing a bucket racer, eh!
When I used the furnace previously, even after a melt you could put your hand on the outer case, but then I didn't have a proper lid, now I can still touch the case with my hand, however it's now a bit hotter and I have to take it off immediately.
Surprisingly the lid with the polystyrene concrete appears to be good for insulation as well and I can can touch it with my hand.
Conclusion - always use a proper lid, probably saves on fuel.
- Very happy! :niceone:

[Flettner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hARDXYz2io
They look like neat xmas gifts Neil.

Where did you find that:laugh:

Will, 2 to 2.5 % I think works best. You can go to 3% but I think that is just wasting the sodium silicate.

[WilDun]

Will, 2 to 2.5 % I think works best. You can go to 3% but I think that is just wasting the sodium silicate.

Is that by weight?
Does the sand need to be rammed as hard as greensand?

[husaberg]

Where did you find that:laugh:

Will, 2 to 2.5 % I think works best. You can go to 3% but I think that is just wasting the sodium silicate.

Googled "cover of rocket man"
pretty sure he slaughters a few more songs as well.

[Flettner]

Is that by weight?
Does the sand need to be rammed as hard as greensand?
Yes by weight. Rammed but not real hard, about as tight as you can push with your fingers.

[WilDun]

Yes by weight. Rammed but not real hard, about as tight as you can push with your fingers.

Thanks, might try that tomorrow, probably I'll have to adapt my Sodasream equipment to be able to control the gas for this purpose, I'm sure it would be a bit too forceful as it is!

[Flettner]

Interpolated thread in the CNC
Finished product (with money inside).

[Grumph]

Very nice, are you open to mail order sales ?

Ever read Nevil Shute's "Trustee From the Toolroom" ? The title character makes eggs of different colours for a kid - which as well as different materials are different heat treatments of steel. Nevil Shute Norway was a pretty good engineer too.