Riding your own ride

**Ixion** · 21st June 2009, 22:35

But what are you supposed to do ?

If I am going out on a ride and I say "anyone want to come along - not a race just take your own time", and X says "Oh yes, I'll tag along, I'm an experienced rider, i'll just ride my own pace", then what an I supposed to do?

In reality if I were in that situation, and I saw that X was *obviously* having problems I'd slow down. I think almost everyone here would. But often it doesn't work that way. X may go through 20 corners looking OK (bearing in mind that this is not a *fast* ride, cos I am not a fast rider, so X has no problem "keeping up": and for all I know X is a hell of a lot better rider than me - that's not hard ) . Then , on the 21st corner X stuffs it up (for whatever reason) and ends up in the ditch . By the time I see him heading ditchward, it's too late for me to influence events.

I tend to brake late or not at all in corners. On some group rides people have commented that they've found it a bit difficult following me because of that . So now I *try* to not have anyone close behind me - I pull over and wave them through. But sometimes it's not possible , for lots of reasons. So if I am pootling gently into a corner , and someone is behind me, and ends up on the wrong side of the road , and in the ditch (cos he was expecting me to brake) , is that my fault?

**PrincessBandit** · 21st June 2009, 22:58

Organisers cannot dictate how every single rider will behave. With a large ride though is there not some degree of leadership or is it a potluck free-for-all? I was not aware of "labeling" of excursions as being 'noob friendly' or 'balls out speed fests'. Maybe there should be a clearer explanation beforehand so that people know what they're getting themselves into if they haven't been previously involved.

If I were to turn up and discover that I didn't "fit in" because everyone else wanted to "race" then I would take responsibility myself for hanging behind and just pootling along, even if it was on my lonesome. It would be nice though if there was some kindhearted rider who might shepherd me, although my suspicion is that I'm more likely to be told htfu or piss off. Hope not!

**Ixion** · 21st June 2009, 23:00

No. I do indeed when learners or newbies are involved. Which is why I say it makes a difference if a ride is posted as suitable for them

But otherwise, if X is (purportedly) an experienced rider, I think I am entitled to assume that he is just that. And since I am , by universal agreement, the slowest rider on the road, if *I* can manage to get through a section of road, then any other experienced (ie full license) rider whould have no problem.

You can't live other people's lives for them.

Newbie, learner, that's quite another matter. With them, I ride by my rear view mirror. Full license holder (or purporting to be such), I expect them to be able to ride their own ride. Which will almost certainly be a lot faster than mine.

I think the same logic reasonably applies to those organising rides.

**Katman** · 21st June 2009, 23:00

The stone cold reality is though, it should never be a 'race' - regardless of the situation or the skill level of the participants.

**Ixion** · 21st June 2009, 23:03

Originally Posted by PrincessBandit

Organisers cannot dictate how every single rider will behave. With a large ride though is there not some degree of leadership or is it a potluck free-for-all? I was not aware of "labeling" of excursions as being 'noob friendly' or 'balls out speed fests'. Maybe there should be a clearer explanation beforehand so that people know what they're getting themselves into if they haven't been previously involved.

If I were to turn up and discover that I didn't "fit in" because everyone else wanted to "race" then I would take responsibility myself for hanging behind and just pootling along, even if it was on my lonesome. It would be nice though if there was some kindhearted rider who might shepherd me, although my suspicion is that I'm more likely to be told htfu or piss off. Hope not!

Most Auckland rides are specified as "learner friendly" or "moderate pace" or "fast" or such like. Or, the nature of the ride may be deduced from the name - "Coro GP" is unlikely to be sedate.

I've more than once gone along to a ride, decided after a bit that it was too fast for me, and gone off on my own. (After advising the ride organiser or someone such that I was doing so of course) .

**Ixion** · 21st June 2009, 23:07

Originally Posted by Katman

The stone cold reality is though, it should never be a 'race' - regardless of the situation or the skill level of the participants.

Sometimes, it is (often, the uncharitable might say). That's why I don't go on those rides. If I go on one, and it turns out to be a race, I just pootle off in another direction. Every rider must make his or her own decisions about that. And of course, one makes ones decision to go on a ride or not based to quite a degree on who is organising it and who else is going. I have many times thought "Hm, could be a good ride. but if X Y and Z are going along, the pace will be too fast for me, I'll flag it by" . If experienced riders are unwilling to make that judgement , and yet unable to "keep up" and yet determined to do so, on their own heads be it. You can only go so far to protect people fporm themselves.

**PrincessBandit** · 21st June 2009, 23:12

Originally Posted by Ixion

Most Auckland rides are specified as "learner friendly" or "moderate pace" or "fast" or such like. Or, the nature of the ride may be deduced from the name - "Coro GP" is unlikely to be sedate.

I've more than once gone along to a ride, decided after a bit that it was too fast for me, and gone off on my own. (After advising the ride organiser or someone such that I was doing so of course) .

Hmmm, Coro GP (assuming that is nothing to do with doctors....) sounds suspiciously "race like" to me

Good to hear an experienced person like yourself stating that pulling out of a ride if you're uncomfortable is perfectly acceptable. (And remembering to advise someone - very important). Thank you.

**Laxi** · 21st June 2009, 23:30

no katman, id say realism

**smoky** · 22nd June 2009, 00:37

Originally Posted by Katman

I've said it before and I'll say it again........
Sites like this have a lot to answer for. It is far too easy for like minded fuckheads to organise a ride that is destined for sadness.

It's called a free country

Originally Posted by Katman

Maybe the 'organizers' need to think about what it is they're organizing.

You have to be joking - do you really take this shit seriously? It's not a club, there's no membership subs, no ones checking everyones suitability for membership, someone posts up a ride, anyone comes along - you don't have the ability to orgainise their safety, or guarantee routes are safe, or there won't be any 'acts of God' along the way
It's just a chat forum
A few of you have stuck that stupid green ME next to your name and things have gone to your head

Originally Posted by Katman

Truth is, I just don't think you give a fuck.

Who are you to make a judgement like that?

Originally Posted by Katman

The stone cold reality is though, it should never be a 'race' - regardless of the situation or the skill level of the participants.

And who said it was a race? I was on the ride, I didn't get any impression people were racing, or encouraged to race. Yes there were the usual riders riding too hard, and being a bit silly (not referring to the person in the accident) but you'll always get that going on, no matter how much you plan or organise. I know two people who have died this year on very organised rides with proper clubs
You know shit about what happened or what led up to it.

It started as a nice day with a good bunch of bike riders chatting and talking bikes and shyte, having a good ride on some beautiful roads, doing their own thing and meeting up again for lunch, then making their own way home.

**idleidolidyll** · 22nd June 2009, 06:37

AS one of the few who saw the accident happen, I'd like to put a lid on this bullshit now!

The rider who crashed was NOT racing, nor was he even going fast. He was one of the more sedate riders and I believe his skill level was at least average. When he crashed he was by himself with a few of us coming up behind; it was an accident and NOT due to any outrageous behaviour. There was a little gravel on the road, that may have been the reason.

If you want to talk about group ride accidents or racing on the road, don't use this example because you are clutching at straws and quite wrong. It's insulting and disrespectful.

**Morcs** · 22nd June 2009, 08:38

It comes down purely to ego. Its very hard to go a slower and safer pace, even if you could quite comfortably go faster. its having the restraint not to nail it after the squid whos barrelled past you on a straight, ignore him, hes just a squid.

I for one, No longer ride fast. Ill quite happily let the other guy think hes 'more skilled' than me as he rides faster. I still do have trouble though not giving out the learn when the push their big ego around saying how awesome they are. Im working on it though.

**idleidolidyll** · 22nd June 2009, 08:50

Having ridden bikes for almost 40 years now and as an ex racer and group rider, here's my comment and opinion:

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

For the most part, judgements on the riskyness of any move by another rider must be taken with a grain of salt.
The only one really who knows for sure whether a move can be made is the rider themselves as they know their own bike, suspension, brakes, power, reflexes, and ability and are usually the closest to the gap, stop point, corner etc.

It is easy to judge incorrectly what they could or couldn't do from a distance but, with modern bikes having 0-100kph times of under 3 seconds, the speed at which a bike can get through a gap is phenomenal. Nobody further than 15 metres or so behind can really judge whether there was room or not as they did not have posession of all the variables as above; they are just judging from their own often inadequate abilites, reaction times, poorly suspended, ill handling, low power bikes etc etc

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider.

This thread has become one of opinion not fact. It is a thread where some are making calls from ignorance rather than fact. You may say "in my opinion....." or "from my experience....." but unless you are Valentino Rossi etc; you are quite likely to be leaping to conclusions that are often ill conceived or based on your own mediocre skill, personal baggage or paranoia.

**aff-man** · 22nd June 2009, 09:24

Originally Posted by Lula

You're not alone there, I too am having regular flash backs.

ditto

Originally Posted by idleidolidyll

Having ridden bikes for almost 40 years now and as an ex racer and group rider, here's my comment and opinion:

Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.

For the most part, judgements on the riskyness of any move by another rider must be taken with a grain of salt.
The only one really who knows for sure whether a move can be made is the rider themselves as they know their own bike, suspension, brakes, power, reflexes, and ability and are usually the closest to the gap, stop pont, corner etc.

It is easy to judge incorrectly from a distance but with modern bikes having 0-100kph times of under 3 seconds; the speed at which a bike can get through a gap is phenomenal. Nobody further than 15 metres or so behind can really judge whether there was room or not as they did not have posession of all the variables as above; they are just judging from their often inadequate abilites, reaction times, poorly suspended, ill handling, low power bikes etc etc

The difference between a really good rider and an average rider is huge. What looks extremely risky to an average rider may only be 8/10ths for the very good rider.

This thread has become one of opinion not fact. It is a thread where some are making calls from ignorance rather than fact. You may say "in my opinion....." or "from my experience....." but unless you are Valentino Rossi etc; you are quite likely to be leaping to conclusions that are often ill conceived or based on your own mediocre skill, personal baggage or paranoia.

Agreed.
For my 2c

Whether you're racing at the track, going on a group ride or hell even taking a dump... you are responsible for your own actions. Trying to pass the buck to faster or slower riders is like pointing a finger when you fart in an elevator. Everybody knows it's your fault and you look like a muppet for trying to shift the blame.

There is fast and there is dangerous..

I'm not the slowest cow in the paddock but am nowhere near the fastest.
And sure getting overtaken by a motard does get the blood pumping and hell I could go from riding 70% to 90% and probably keep up but realising that cuts my error margin down significantly and not pushing it has probably increased my safety exponentially. And no I'm not saying I havn't pushed the envelope because we all do but as that limit becomes higher and higher I tend to try and hit it less.

that being said.....shit happens. Some things can't be accounted for and shouldn't be over-analysed