The Bucket Foundry [Archive] - Page 12

Flettner

20th December 2016, 07:34

I know this rocket project is way off topic but two things. I enjoyed making these for the grand kids, second thing, I was posting the making of this rocket pattern as a 'see how cores and core prints work' and the reason for the beads. I still get asked why the beads and I thought this would be a simple pictorial explanation of the process.
Glen, I don't know what you are talking about :facepalm::laugh:
Anyway back to cylinder making. Next cylinder will be an almost normal one.

WilDun

20th December 2016, 09:50

I Suspected as much, Winglets were in for 2016.

I may have to rewind, I missed something somewhere! - don't really understand, remember I am a very straight granddad, I grew up on a farm and had a sheltered upbringing! but I do know that all the animals managed fine without all these accessories, like rockets, porting tools, etc. :confused:

Oh, and Neil, regarding the rockets - make sure the grandkids don't get to hear all the untruths and insinuations being bandied about! :facepalm:

Seriously though, showing just how those rockets are made is a a good simple learning exercise for those lazy sods who are interested, but can't get themselves to have a go at casting - they could learn a lot from it!

Flettner

20th December 2016, 16:41

The cylinder I cast with the rockets.

WilDun

20th December 2016, 17:15

The cylinder I cast with the rockets.

Silly question maybe, but did you have to knock the cores out to get them to that stage or did they just crumble and fall out?

Flettner

20th December 2016, 19:39

Cores will break down with heat, largely crumble out but water blaster helps.
A gaggle of rockets.

ken seeber

21st December 2016, 20:45

Was going to do some more slider exh welding in the arvo after finishing off another job, but when it got to 42 deg @ 4.30, I decided that some other less heat intensive things would be the go. Must be getting weak with age.:violin:

Flettner

22nd December 2016, 08:05

Ken, much hotter and you almost won't need to turn the welder on to melt metal.
Good things come to those who wait, look what Santa dropped off.
Let the HCCI continue.

WilDun

22nd December 2016, 10:09

Ken, much hotter and you almost won't need to turn the welder on to melt metal.
Good things come to those who wait, look what Santa dropped off.
Let the HCCI continue.

Ok, what do you plan to do with it? I know there will be a scheme starting to hatch already and I'm pretty sure it won't be a conventional one! :msn-wink:

Flettner

22nd December 2016, 10:31

Ok, what do you plan to do with it? I know there will be a scheme starting to hatch already and I'm pretty sure it won't be a conventional one! :msn-wink:

The HCCI is an AG100 engine, but I don't have anything to load it with BUT now I do. Fit the HCCI in this frame and ride it, throttle by fuel only! I think I might want a straight / flat piece of road, thankfully there are some right here in the Waikato. Well, flatish.:wacko:
Mhmm best Christmas yet, 700 kg of steel to make a Shell Sand molding machine. What I call a Sand Roll Over machine, this type of machine is needed for production castings with cores ie cylinders and fourstroke heads etc.
First problem, won't fit in the bandsaw, time to sharpen up the gas axe.

WilDun

22nd December 2016, 13:31

The HCCI is an AG100 engine, but I don't have anything to load it with BUT now I do. Fit the HCCI in this frame and ride it, throttle by fuel only! I think I might want a straight / flat piece of road,

Find a Kart frame to put it in, or a quad, preferably with an ejector seat! - if not, I hope there are plenty of bushes at the end of those long straight roads! :shit:

Mhmm best Christmas yet, 700 kg of steel to make a Shell Sand molding machine .......... ie cylinders and fourstroke heads etc.

That is a mighty impressive lump of steel! - must be a pretty heavy duty (sand dump box?) you are building - fourstroke heads? - no no no - shame on you! :no:

husaberg

22nd December 2016, 14:58

The HCCI is an AG100 engine, but I don't have anything to load it with BUT now I do. Fit the HCCI in this frame and ride it, throttle by fuel only! I think I might want a straight / flat piece of road, thankfully there are some right here in the Waikato. Well, flatish.:wacko:
Mhmm best Christmas yet, 700 kg of steel to make a Shell Sand molding machine. What I call a Sand Roll Over machine, this type of machine is needed for production castings with cores ie cylinders and fourstroke heads etc.
First problem, won't fit in the bandsaw, time to sharpen up the gas axe.

Something like this only with co2 as well?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojiyGUzPPjY

or more like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paJ0MA2bw10

WilDun

22nd December 2016, 15:35

That is brilliant! everything speeded up big time and using greensand too!

Think maybe I was confusing it with the resin sand process! :facepalm:

Brett S

22nd December 2016, 15:53

I believe it would be more like this using hot set resin.
Quite efficient, same stuff can be blown into hot metal moulds to make cores as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44R2IbzTvt4

Flettner

22nd December 2016, 16:58

The steel came at a good price so it is what it is. This plate has been sitting at Fletcher Steel for eight years ( I know I've had my eye on it) it was cut wrong for a customer. I'll cut three plates (platterns) at 600 square and get the CNC to pocket them out on the back side. I've got four lengths of hard chrome bar for the tie rods. The whole machine as such is on a pair of bearings so it can rotate 180 degrees for gravity and air blast to fill the hot die with resin sand from the sand box. Machine rolls back after a few seconds and the unset sand runs back into the sand box, ready for the next shot. Cores come out like a thin shell with a hollow inside. Fast, accurate production for serious casting.

husaberg

22nd December 2016, 17:32

I believe it would be more like this using hot set resin.
Quite efficient, same stuff can be blown into hot metal moulds to make cores as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44R2IbzTvt4

Okay that makes sense, when he said shell sand. I was thinking co2 set.

WilDun

23rd December 2016, 16:50

The steel came at a good price so it is what it is.
The whole machine as such is on a pair of bearings so it can rotate 180 degrees for gravity and air blast to fill the hot die with resin sand from the sand box.
Good, I was right after all, not confused! - God forbid that I ever go that way!

Cores come out like a thin shell with a hollow inside. Fast, accurate production for serious casting.

Good on you for trying (I mean doing) that - it's a big undertaking really, usually associated with large foundries.

I know I told you before of course - I drew up and made a lot of CI coreboxes for Moyes and Groves valve factory (now gone since the import restrictions were lifted) - that was a highlight of my days there, always enjoyed trips over to Masport to try them out on their machines and also took a keen interest in their pattern shop - great days!
Also saw bronze being poured into shell moulds at another foundry, the name of which escapes me at the moment and that was also very interesting.
That bloody shellsand sure smokes and stinks when the metal is poured though! :argh:

Good luck with your project! :niceone:

Flettner

23rd December 2016, 16:55

Good, I was right after all, not confused! - God forbid that I ever go that way!

I drew up and made a lot of CI coreboxes for Moyes and Groves valve factory (now gone since the import restrictions were lifted) but that was a highlight of my days there, always enjoyed trips over to Masport to try them out on their machines and also took a keen interest in their pattern shop - great days! Also saw bronze being poured into shell moulds at another foundry the name of which escapes me at the moment, that was also very interesting.
That bloody shellsand sure smokes and stinks when the metal is poured though!

Yes, needs to be well ventilated but worth the trouble. When we were making the SUB4 (EA81 Subaru heads with four ports) you could run the sand roll over machine for a day and have cores for weeks of casting, opened my eyes.

WilDun

24th December 2016, 07:35

I guess some of you have seen this one, pity it's in Italian (I think), but it does give us a pretty good explanation of how the process works though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xar5r9Jm04g

WilDun

24th December 2016, 10:16

I went mad and bought these (my Christmas present to me), dunno really why I did it, but I guess they will be good to melt down if nothing else, lots of ally, cranks, rods, pistons/rings, clutches, carbs etc.etc. to experiment with (and destroy) ...... maybe I can justify having them after all! ........ or maybe just keep them, (they might come in handy someday!)......... I know! I could use them to build up a bucket racing team! ........ then again, maybe not. :rolleyes:

327152327153

Flettner

24th December 2016, 11:38

Alloy wheels are generally CC601 good for casting about with.

Michael Moore

24th December 2016, 17:34

Otherwise known as "wheelium". :)

cheers,
Michael

WilDun

24th December 2016, 19:42

Happy Christmas everybody.
From Will.

ken seeber

24th December 2016, 20:08

Good foundry stuff going on here. We’ve got an almost complete top loading shell core blower getting close to being operational. Originally had a pretty cruddy die set mounting system, so we replaced this with a largish mechanical press type we had hanging around. This gives us a lot more precision that we will need for the very small coreboxes as part of its intended use. Because it of a plain bush design, we used motorcycle fork gaiters plus a heat shield (blue) to provide further protection.
Some of the coreboxes will have a complex shaped part line, so matching is important. Clearly, the die set is opened and closed with the horizontal red air cylinder and within the die set can be seen two flanged aluminium blocks which are yet to be machined to form the actual corebox. Not shown is the ejector mechanism that will slightly eject the cores from both the corebox halves when it is opening. These will be electrically heated and the temp controlled with the T/C temp controllers in the clear faced control panel. The shell core sand is stored in the large ex 9 kg LPG bottle, and dispensed into the (unpainted) hopper when it is swung directly under the valve under the LPG bottle. The hopper will contain quite a bit of sand, so it won’t have to be filled every cycle. So, when the corebox is to be filled, the hopper will be swung around so that it is directly above the corebox. Then the vertical air cylinder clamps down on the hopper forcing it hard against the corebox. Then compressed air is applied into the hopper, forcing the sand into the vented corebox. Not sure, but I reckon the cycle time will be around 30 sec or so.
Have a good Xmas guys.
327308 327307

husaberg

26th December 2016, 10:24

Neil have a gander at this
http://www.cycleworld.com/2012/03/08/ask-kevin-two-stroke-innovation-question

WilDun

26th December 2016, 10:40

HUSA,(or anyone who might know)
Got any idea how I can watch Wanganui races online today? they say you can get an app. but damned if I can get it.
I want to watch my namesake and countryman (Michael Dunlop) either win or kill himself trying to win!

husaberg

26th December 2016, 11:04

WilDun

26th December 2016, 23:16

Thanks Husa,
Bit disappointed - he wasn't exactly trying as hard as he usually does at the TT!

Flettner

27th December 2016, 08:58

WilDun

27th December 2016, 09:13

I'm just reading Being There by Huge Anderson, he put up with a lot of shit from Suzuki. His bikes would either seize up or foul plugs and there seemed to be no urgency to fix the problem. It is a wonder he finished any races at all. We don't know how lucky we are these days.

I was talking to someone who knew Hugh and he told him (and I guess it's true) that he spent hours and hours test riding for Suzuki as well as racing, by having to ride the bikes round and round until they seized, to test various piston grinds - a very dangerous occupation!
He was a great rider - I saw him fall off his 125 Suzuki (twin) at the Ulster GP,(probably around 1963 -1964) he picked it up again, carried on and actually won the race!!
BTW that was in the days when the 125cc machines were lapping faster the 500cc class!

Flettner

27th December 2016, 12:06

I was talking to someone who knew Hugh and he told him (and I guess it's true) that he spent hours and hours test riding for Suzuki as well as racing, by having to ride the bikes round and round until they seized, to test various piston grinds - a very dangerous occupation!
He was a great rider - I saw him fall off his 125 Suzuki (twin) at the Ulster GP,(probably around 1963 -1964) he picked it up again, carried on and actually won the race!!
BTW that was in the days when the 125cc machines were lapping faster the 500cc class!
Yes, apparently they had spare plugs and a plug spanner in the fairing, sometimes had to stop out on the track and change plugs then carry on racing:eek5:
I look at my YZ as an example of modern twostroke. Never fouls a plug, piston change at 100 hours, feed it petrol and oil, change gearbox oil from time to time. Clean air filter every time, total reliability.
How cool is that,' Being There ' you were.

WilDun

27th December 2016, 13:34

look at my YZ as an example of modern twostroke. Never fouls a plug, piston change at 100 hours, feed it petrol and oil, change gearbox oil from time to time. Clean air filter every time, total reliability.

Then just as they were almost perfected, some clown behind a desk in his wisdom wiped them from the scene with a stroke of his pen!

Grumph

27th December 2016, 13:39

I was talking to someone who knew Hugh and he told him (and I guess it's true) that he spent hours and hours test riding for Suzuki as well as racing, by having to ride the bikes round and round until they seized, to test various piston grinds - a very dangerous occupation!
He was a great rider - I saw him fall off his 125 Suzuki (twin) at the Ulster GP,(probably around 1963 -1964) he picked it up again, carried on and actually won the race!!
BTW that was in the days when the 125cc machines were lapping faster the 500cc class!

Pretty sure that was the European season after he'd brought the 125 home to NZ and raced it here.
I was at Wigram (big airfield circuit, Will..) and watched him ride away from everybody. The Manx I later owned blew up chasing him and Ginger Molloy wound up second on his works 250 Bultaco...those of us watching who were aware of what bikes were in NZ were somewhat detuned.....

WilDun

27th December 2016, 16:00

Pretty sure that was the European season after he'd brought the 125 home to NZ and raced it here.

The guy who told me about the piston testing was Len Jelaca (he, Hughie and Ginger Molloy were mates around Huntly). I used to work with Len and I found that he had previously been a very good Speedway rider.
The other two went to Europe together and ended up with Bultaco and Suzuki.
Len unfortunately died around 15 tears ago.

Even the 500 Manx would have had difficulty keeping up with those fast (but unpredictable) 125 Suzukis!

WilDun

27th December 2016, 17:52

Flettner, was there any mention in his book about the seizure testing or the time he (ie Hugh Anderson) fell off at the Ulster?

Grumph

27th December 2016, 18:26

Flettner, was there any mention in his book about the seizure testing or the time he (ie Hugh Anderson) fell off at the Ulster?

According to Vic Willoughby's book "The racing Motorcycle' it was 1964 - and there's a pic too of Hugh riding the tits off the 125 post fall.
Lost the title to Luigi Taveri that year when Honda brought out the 125 four.

The Manx I spoke of was probably the best in NZ and at that point had won 3 NZGP's - and still had one more to go. To stay with the 125 according to the rider (T R McCleary...) it needed a six speed box. It only ever had a four speed sadly. But it did finish up with an ex works 90 bore engine after the Wigram blow up.

F5 Dave

27th December 2016, 19:48

That Anderson book is good, his dedication to sorting the bike elevated him plus gave him heaps of seat time.

husaberg

27th December 2016, 20:03

Some Hugh stuff and era stuff
Those steel looking frames were genarally aluminium painted
A very young Barry Sheene nearly stole the world tittle on a 1967 twin, (with some of the gears disabled to comply with the 6 speed rule) in 1971 with no works support.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151865-Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc?p=1130619460#post1130619460

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151865-Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc?p=1130619102#post1130619102

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/151865-Old-multi-cylinder-bikes-of-the-50s-to-later-on-Japanese-British-Euro-etc?p=1130619459#post1130619459

WilDun

28th December 2016, 08:58

Some Hugh stuff and era stuff

A very interesting conversation, all very "non foundry" at the moment, but it has brought me up to date on a lot of info and a lot of other bike stuff I missed out on over the 25 or so years since I rode bikes, - by joining the forum a few years ago I found that I was just as interested as ever I was.

This was originally Yow Ling's thread - where's he gone anyway? - you did start a good thread here you know!

I did actually join Kiwibiker a while ago when recovering from surgery, just because I was a bit bored - made a nuisance of myself by getting a couple or three guys inflamed, one being the guru of the Harley guys but that was resolved by my swallowing humble pie! I apologized to him and he was very gracious about it I must say - thankfully.
Quite frankly I think I was a "pain in the ass" ! probably still am sometimes - I do my best not to be, but if I am, hopefully you guys can make allowances for me!

Then, after not visiting it much for a couple of years I came back when I happened to see Flettner's foundry stuff on this thread and haven't looked back, except for a couple of outbursts maybe I have remained a relatively good boy.

I was always very interested in foundry work and I wanted to have a go at casting metal when I had fully recovered and found that I could learn a lot here (also earlier on ESE) on the subject - I have learnt a lot and am still continuing to do so, long may it all last.
Progress is slow as I'm not really very energetic these days but I'll get there - I have already done a couple of pours but feel that there is still a lot to learn from this thread. (and having now met Neil, I will be able to learn a bit more on the subject!).

I have had the chance to talk to and meet some of the other guys here, also talked to quite a few from overseas, including Ken in Oz, and Frits in Nederland and many others both in Europe and America - guys I would never have had the chance to talk to a few years ago (and who I would never even have dared approach then) and managed to have a few interesting discussions.

Happy new Year everybody, I for one appreciate all the fun we have had so far. :niceone:

Yow Ling

28th December 2016, 20:05

This was originally Yow Ling's thread - where's he gone anyway? - you did start a good thread here you know!

Im still here sometimes, its not my thread, I just started it, I quite like it as it hasnt gone esoteric like the other one, still has stuff mortals can understand and dream of. Just keep posting interesting shit

WilDun

28th December 2016, 21:55

Im still here sometimes, its not my thread, I just started it, I quite like it as it hasnt gone esoteric like the other one, still has stuff mortals can understand and dream of. Just keep posting interesting shit

Good to know you're still around - guess the bike thing keeps you busy and makes it difficult to do the foundry thing!

ken seeber

29th December 2016, 17:28

Slider update.

At this stage, we should be able to hear it running...:mega:

327421

Also came to a decision:
1. I don't think I'll make exhausts for a living.
2. No-one would ask me anyway.

Flettner

29th December 2016, 17:47

Yes yes, you must post a video of it running like that:eek:

Grumph

29th December 2016, 18:51

Shouldn't it have a barbeque grill on the top ?

Ken you should have realised by now that pipe making in multiples is so soul destroying that anyone willing to make them is worth paying...

Flettner

29th December 2016, 19:17

Shouldn't it have a barbeque grill on the top ?

Ken you should have realised by now that pipe making in multiples is so soul destroying that anyone willing to make them is worth paying...

No, it's easy these days, the skill has been taken out of engineering,,,, just press print. :laugh:
I'm told, people like us aren't needed any more.

Frits Overmars

29th December 2016, 23:30

Slider update. At this stage, we should be able to hear it running...:mega:Looking like that, I should be able to hear it running from where I am, sitting here in the west-european winter.
And you're damn right about the 'joy' of making exhausts for a living. I've made more than I care to remember but only because on many occasions I didn't want to wait for someone else to make them, and sometimes because I wanted to keep the pipe dimensions to myself for a while. Pipe building has never become a hobby of mine.

No, it's easy these days, the skill has been taken out of engineering,,,, just press print. :laugh:
I'm told, people like us aren't needed any more.Told by whom? Keyboard jockeys who don't know left-hand from right-hand thread?
I'm forever grateful that my dad not only let me study but also taught me how to get my hands dirty without losing my fingers.

Flettner

30th December 2016, 11:07

Told by whom? Keyboard jockeys who don't know left-hand from right-hand thread?
I'm forever grateful that my dad not only let me study but also taught me how to get my hands dirty without losing my fingers.

I guess I'm just a bit grumpy with some of the business I deal with, they will spend a shit load of time and money inhouse drawing up components leaving no time or money for building it. Usually it's wrong anyway and I'll end up having to fix it for them but they don't value what I do so don't want to pay for it. I've given up and won't deal with these customers any more, too much hassle and no money. Funnily enough I've been approached by one of these customers recently because they can't get the parts built anywhere else (they didn't say that but I have my contacts). It felt real nice to tell them (politely) fuck off.
Another one I used to deal with liked to get their prototype stuff made in China, always wrong because the Chinese just make to the drawing and don't care if it's wrong. I usually end up fixing it or remaking it. They would always question me on my price, they too got the message recently.
Customers, who needs them anyway:facepalm:

WilDun

30th December 2016, 12:30

I guess I'm just a bit grumpy with some of the business I deal with, they will spend a shit load of time and money inhouse drawing up components leaving no time or money for building it. Usually it's wrong anyway and I'll end up having to fix it for them but they don't value what I do so don't want to pay for it.

Rather than tell them to fuck off, have a standard "application" form (if they come to you, then you are holding the whip), explaining that you also have requirements before starting the job and if they won't sign that then tell them to f ... etc. etc - some may even comply - If they are desperate enough. :)

Flettner

30th December 2016, 19:57

Rather than tell them to fuck off, have a standard "application" form (if they come to you, then you are holding the whip), explaining that you also have requirements before starting the job and if they won't sign that then tell them to f ... etc. etc - some may even comply - If they are desperate enough. :)

Will, l'm just over dealing with dick heads, someone else can hold their hand.

husaberg

30th December 2016, 20:29

Will, l'm just over dealing with dick heads, someone else can hold their hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZZApGl8H2M

Flettner

31st December 2016, 11:39

That didn't take long, I find one of the grand kids behind the couch with one one of grandma's good spoons undoing the lid off the rocket money box. Next she will be dipping into her younger sisters stash. Perhaps locktite will need to be used after all :laugh:
See, knowlage is power:clap:

ken seeber

31st December 2016, 16:00

Slider update:
Did an exhaust cradle/brace to tie the three exhausts together and then have to rig up a rough coolant system. With the pressure of popular demand to see (hear) it running in this state, this should be enough to give it a free (not connected to a dyno load) run. Probably do it next year sometime. :laugh:

After this intermediate thrill, I guess it's back to the completing the pipes and sorting out the dyno.

327465

husaberg

31st December 2016, 16:04

http://www.aluminumcastingscorp.com/aluminummeltingdept.html

This bit interested me
http://www.aluminumcastingscorp.com/tenzaloy713.html

Tenzaloy (Alloy 713) Aluminum Sand Castings
High Strength Without Heat Treatment
An option to 319, 355, and 356 heat treated aluminum sand castings is the Tenzaloy, or 713 as-cast aluminum alloy that we pour in our aluminum sand foundry. Physical properties are equivalent to the heat treated 300 series aluminum alloys with minimum results of 32,000 psi tensile, 22,000 psi yield strength and 3.0% elongation.
These properties are attained through the natural aging process at room temperature over a 2-3 week period. This increasing strength nearly levels out in the aluminum sand castings after the 3 weeks, increasing only slightly for up to 6 months further to its peak stability.

Also have a gander at these.
327492327493327494327495327496

Flettner

31st December 2016, 18:01

husaberg

1st January 2017, 19:52

No, it's easy these days, the skill has been taken out of engineering,,,, just press print. :laugh:
I'm told, people like us aren't needed any more.

Looking like that, I should be able to hear it running from where I am, sitting here in the west-european winter.
And you're damn right about the 'joy' of making exhausts for a living. I've made more than I care to remember but only because on many occasions I didn't want to wait for someone else to make them, and sometimes because I wanted to keep the pipe dimensions to myself for a while. Pipe building has never become a hobby of mine.

Told by whom? Keyboard jockeys who don't know left-hand from right-hand thread?
I'm forever grateful that my dad not only let me study but also taught me how to get my hands dirty without losing my fingers.

Frits don't shoot me after only reading the first paragraph, read on until the end. ;)
click it three times.
327539

Frits Overmars

1st January 2017, 23:33

Frits don't shoot me after only reading the first paragraph, read on until the end. ;) click it three times.
327539Nothing wrong with that first paragraph, except KC's remark that we may never know the full story. We know the full story about the Maxtra-Haojue scam all too well.
It began when Haojue contracted none other than John Surtees to supervise their intended 125 cc racing activities. John was about to use a very promising twin-disc engine, designed by Dolph van der Woude (who also designed the Aprilia RSW250) and built by Thijs Hessels, with support from Jan Thiel.
But then Witteveen talked Surtees out of it and instead convinced him to use the Maxtra engine, built by Witteveen's friend Franco Moro.
And the rest, as they say, is history, with Haojue finally going to court, sueing Witteveen.

husaberg

2nd January 2017, 00:00

Nothing wrong with that first paragraph, except KC's remark that we may never know the full story. We know the full story about the Maxtra-Haojue scam all too well.
It began when Haojue contracted none other than John Surtees to supervise their intended 125 cc racing activities. John was about to use a very promising twin-disc engine, designed by Dolph van der Woude (who also designed the Aprilia RSW250) and built by Thijs Hessels, with support from Jan Thiel.
But then Witteveen talked Surtees out of it and instead convinced him to use the Maxtra engine, built by his friend Franco Moro.
And the rest, as they say, is history, with Haojue finally going to court, sueing Witteveen.

I was meaning just the mentioning the macbeth name.
Why do so many people go through Surtees?
Anyway, its a nice write up i had never seen before.
With some long overdue kudo to Mr Jan Thiel.
327551

WilDun

2nd January 2017, 10:21

I was meaning just the mentioning the macbeth name.
Why do so many people go through Surtees?
Anyway, its a nice write up i had never seen before.
With some long overdue kudo to Mr Jan Thiel.
327551

The guy on the right says, "any more shit riding from you and you're gone, ok?".
The Guy on the bike is thinking "oh do piss off".
Jan is thinking " is this guy for real?"
The guy on the left is thinking "this is embarrassing, I'm going to keep out of it and just smile at the camera!".

husaberg

2nd January 2017, 10:37

The guy on the right says, any more shit riding from you and you're gone, ok?.
The Guy on the bike is thinking "oh do piss off".
Jan is thinking " what the hell is he on about?"
The guy on the left is thinking "this is embarrassing, I'm going to keep out of this and just smile at the camera!".

"12+1". GP titles, 90 Grand Prix victories, spanning three decades, He did okay most days i guess.:innocent:

WilDun

2nd January 2017, 10:43

"12+1". GP titles, 90 Grand Prix victories, spanning three decades,

Oh dear, :facepalm:

BTW Ken did you get your coremaking machine working before the new year?

Happy New Year everybody!

Frits Overmars

3rd January 2017, 01:35

327574

The guy on the right says, "any more shit riding from you and you're gone, ok?"
The guy on the bike is thinking "oh do piss off".
Jan is thinking "is this guy for real?"
The guy on the left is thinking "this is embarrassing, I'm going to keep out of it and just smile at the camera!"

"12+1". GP titles, 90 Grand Prix victories, spanning three decades. He did okay most days i guess. :innocent:
Oh dear, :facepalm:Will, I just discovered (honestly!) that if you click on a picture, it's description is displayed below it.
Could be useful for those of us who aren't old enough yet (or too old already :devil2:) to recognize racing celebrities.

speedpro

3rd January 2017, 11:32

didn't Angel's son do OK as well?

diesel pig

3rd January 2017, 12:45

John was about to use a very promising twin-disc engine, designed by Dolph van der Woude (who also designed the Aprilia RSW250) and built by Thijs Hessels,.

Well that's a shame, It would of be a interesting engine but I did wonder when looking at a plan of Yamaha twin disc 125 of the 60's wither the two intake steams would interfere with each other?

husaberg

3rd January 2017, 13:41

Well that's a shame, It would of be a interesting engine but I did wonder when looking at a plan of Yamaha twin disc 125 of the 60's wither the two intake steams would interfere with each other?

Likely far less problems with this than the asymmetrical lntake disc valves traditionally have with a disc on one side.
pics to follow
327581327582327583327584327585

husaberg

3rd January 2017, 13:59

The exactweld engine
The same two guys made the chassis for the Quantal Norton that won the BOT at Daytona
(Surtess was in on that one too Frits)

Grumph

3rd January 2017, 18:58

I've always looked at the Exactweld and thought that I would not like to pull a spark plug in a hurry - or lift the head between practise and a race...

husaberg

3rd January 2017, 19:32

- or lift the head between practise and a race...

Probably way faster than you think it;'they just happen to come off with the whole steering head and forks as well.:shifty:
From memory the Honda NR500 was a full engine out then new engine in for a spark plug change.
One of the other british tandems of the era likely Armstrong or a waddon (i can't remember which)also had the expansion chamber exit in the steering head as well.
The Exactweld Quantal Norton
327608

Grumph

4th January 2017, 05:32

Probably way faster than you think it;'they just happen to come off with the whole steering head and forks as well.:shifty:

I realise that - but there are a lot of fasteners, and it would be hot. Strip one of the threads and unless you have a spare you're fucked.

The Roberts plastic fantastics were quite a bit better for access. Plugs no problem. Engine service, three through bolts out and park the frame on a rubbish bin...

Flettner

4th January 2017, 16:35

Hopes and dreams

Ocean1

4th January 2017, 19:29

Hopes and dreams

Which one's which?

Flettner

4th January 2017, 20:49

Dashed by reality, bugger. First two are more gyro cylinders that seem ok but the back two are the FOS / Ryger styles. But they are a cock up. Bubbled badly and leaked.

Niels Abildgaard

5th January 2017, 05:42

Hello Flettner

Have You described or pictured Your Gyro engine somewhere here?

Drew

5th January 2017, 06:15

I realise that - but there are a lot of fasteners, and it would be hot. Strip one of the threads and unless you have a spare you're fucked.

The Roberts plastic fantastics were quite a bit better for access. Plugs no problem. Engine service, three through bolts out and park the frame on a rubbish bin...

The Warlord is the same. It doesn't inspire me with confidence however on the plastic, but Mr Roberts is a very clever bugger and I've never looked to see how the shell is braced/strengthened at the mounting points.

Flettner

5th January 2017, 06:23

Yum, NZ Cylinders nikasil.

Niels, here are some gyro cylinders cast earlier, further back in this forum are some pictures of the engine, page 11 to 14.

And yes on inspection this morning the 350 cylinders have cast well but the FOS / Ryger are a complete fuck up. One problem with lots of cores in a small area is the surface area exposed to the molten aluminium as the alloy fills the cavities gas from the cores is made and released. There needs to be a path for this gas to escape, if not it will escape through the molten alloy causing bubbles / voids. This is what seems to be happening with my cores. Mixing the sodium silicate in richer mixtures make the sand less permeable not so go for gas transport / escape but better for strength. Unfortunately the fix in this case is to make the cores from Shell Core sand but this needs a metal die, with Shell sand being much more permeable and gasses a lot less. I did have a similar problem with the first few 350 cylinders I cast until I went to a Shell sand water core.
All is not lost though as I use this neat little plan. I copy cast my CO2 wood core boxes into aluminium core boxes. Fill with Shell sand and into the wife's oven when she is not looking. Just a lot more work that's all. :doh:

Grumph

5th January 2017, 06:32

The Warlord is the same. It doesn't inspire me with confidence however on the plastic, but Mr Roberts is a very clever bugger and I've never looked to see how the shell is braced/strengthened at the mounting points.

Around that time there was information coming out about various 'glass monocoque car projects. Some clever engineers were coming up with ways of feeding loads into fiberglass - and going public. One of the best publicised was the Lotus Elite, info about that was readily available - and it worked.
I'd bet there's alloy fabrications glassed in at critical points. Never heard of any of Mr Roberts glass bikes breaking publicly.

Brett S

5th January 2017, 12:00

Neil could you coat your shell sand with sodium silicate, ram it in the mould and then CO2 gas it.
Then put it in the oven to cook the shell sand and hopefully burn off the sodium silicate?
It may be an impermeable mess though.

WilDun

5th January 2017, 22:56

Will, I just discovered (honestly!) that if you click on a picture, it's description is displayed below it.
Could be useful for those of us who aren't old enough yet (or too old already :devil2:) to recognize racing celebrities.

Yes, I'm sorry Frits, (I was 99% sure it was Angel Nieto of course) I mean that's how Jan was involved, but I just couldn't resist, ie being silly in the festive season and having a quick last look at the computer before I went off for a few days holiday. but.... I'm sure they themselves would have been be able to see a funny side to it! - If not, I promise I'll try and keep a "po face" for the rest of the year!- methinks I could have upset Husa. :facepalm: oh no! ................ who's too old? :angry2:

WilDun

5th January 2017, 23:19

Niels, here are some gyro cylinders cast earlier, further back in this forum are some pictures of the engine, page 11 to 14.

And yes on inspection this morning the 350 cylinders have cast well but the FOS / Ryger are a complete fuck up. All is not lost though as I use this neat little plan. I copy cast my CO2 wood core boxes into aluminium core boxes. Fill with Shell sand and into the wife's oven when she is not looking. Just a lot more work that's all. :doh:

Bad luck there Neil, but it'll eventually make you a wiser man! (and we can benefit from your mistakes). How did the 350 cylinders compare to the one I saw?
How in hell baking shellsand in your wife's oven is going to escape her attention, I dunno! :shit: - you do take some risks!

Anyway, are you aiming to make hollow cores all round, vented from the exhaust and transfer cores into a hollow main cylinder core ??

Frits Overmars

5th January 2017, 23:21

just couldn't resist, just being silly in the festive seasonI recognize the tendency Will. And judging by myself, it doesn't get better with age. Some people never grow up :D.

WilDun

5th January 2017, 23:49

I recognize the tendency Will. And judging by myself, it doesn't get better with age. Some people never grow up :D.

Yeah, (judging by myself also) if there is never any laughter, something is amiss, but problem is you (I) need to get the timing right and have people laughing with me and not at me (this can be just as difficult as getting the timing right on any two stroke engine!).:laugh:

husaberg

6th January 2017, 00:04

methinks I could have upset Husa. :facepalm: oh no! ................ who's too old? :angry2:

Unlikely Will, i was just having a laugh as well. hence the emoticon.;)

Niels, here are some gyro cylinders cast earlier, further back in this forum are some pictures of the engine, page 11 to 14.

And yes on inspection this morning the 350 cylinders have cast well but the FOS / Ryger are a complete fuck up. One problem with lots of cores in a small area is the surface area exposed to the molten aluminium as the alloy fills the cavities gas from the cores is made and released. There needs to be a path for this gas to escape, if not it will escape through the molten alloy causing bubbles / voids. This is what seems to be happening with my cores. Mixing the sodium silicate in richer mixtures make the sand less permeable not so go for gas transport / escape but better for strength. Unfortunately the fix in this case is to make the cores from Shell Core sand but this needs a metal die, with Shell sand being much more permeable and gasses a lot less. I did have a similar problem with the first few 350 cylinders I cast until I went to a Shell sand water core.
All is not lost though as I use this neat little plan. I copy cast my CO2 wood core boxes into aluminium core boxes. Fill with Shell sand and into the wife's oven when she is not looking. Just a lot more work that's all. :doh:

As well as more vent holes, Would making the risers higher help Neil, like a defacto version of the Cosworth pressure sandcast system?

Frits Overmars

6th January 2017, 00:49

couldn't resist, just being silly in the festive season.
I recognize the tendency Will. And judging by myself, it doesn't get better with age. Some people never grow up :D.
(judging by myself also) if there is never any laughter, something is amiss, but problem is you (I) need to get the timing right and have people laughing with me and not at me :laugh:.Some BS wisdom (in no particular order) on the subject:
327635 327636 327637327638 327639 327640

Now let's get back on topic; I'm curious about Flettner's activities.

WilDun

6th January 2017, 07:35

Now let's get back on topic; I'm curious about Flettner's activities.

Yes, back to casting etc., but ......... :laugh: :laugh: :niceone: (ie for Frits's presentation!) - not a time for laughter at Neil's place though!

Flettner

6th January 2017, 14:29

Ok, the failed castings were what should probably be called FOS/ High pressure+Direct to open air transfers. FOS/HPDT ? Perhaps?
On closer inspection it appears there is an area around the water core that is slow to fill trapping air, the cause of the bubbling problem. Shell Sand would solve the problem but a modified CO2 water core might be a better first try?

WilDun

6th January 2017, 20:10

On closer inspection it appears there is an area around the water core that is slow to fill trapping air, the cause of the bubbling problem. Shell Sand would solve the problem but a modified CO2 water core might be a better first try?

How about a silicate sand "biscuit"? - Would it be possible to use the silicate as an adhesive for loose sand ? (I have heard that silicate can be very sticky at the right consistency), ie making a core by a basically similar process to shellsand, but instead of a hot corebox, use gooey (thick) silicate painted on the inside of the corebox, then blow in normal silicate sand and finally pass Co2 through it, there could possibly be a problem finding a suitable release agent though!
Maybe I'm in cuckooland again! :weird:

Flettner

7th January 2017, 15:34

First let's look at some shortsightedness in the mold runner layout. For convenience I usually put the in gate (the part of the runner that connects to the mold cavity) in the bottom sand mold, this has an upward effect on the aluminium as it enters the mold cavity. This in gate is quite large and there will be a high flow rate into the mold, splashing up in this case, not a smooth controlled flow in. This alone will cause problems but it seems with my other molds I get away with it. More room in them perhaps as this mold is full of intricate cores with potential gas traps. The in gate needs to be wider, thinner and slow the feed down a little so as to get a smoother more even fill. You can see this in the first picture. Also interesting to see (second picture) that the water core print (top) is uncovered by aluminium, this is good as it means the gas coming up this core can escape directly to the holes I've drilled above them, for this purpose. I also see the core prints around the outside (exhausts and direct inlets) are uncovered (mostly) by aluminium, so gas can escape there.
More thinking and I've come to the conclusion that a ring gate might be in order with say six or three small feeds into the mold to join the cavity to the ring gate. Way more even filling, that's where the problem is and some better venting from some of these potential trapped cavities in the water core.
Another reason to have small in gates is so that when the runner / in gate freeze off they don't try and pull aluminium out of the mold with shrinkage.

ken seeber

7th January 2017, 18:03

Slider update. A little bit of noise.

https://youtu.be/dT4btNAmjz0

Turns out that the stud that actuates the sliding cylinder broke, probably as a result of bending load reversals due to the fore and aft vibration of the (relatively heavy) lever.

327717

Something to be addressed for the future. Notwithstanding, this meant that the cylinder running in the vid was in its down position, meaning that the ports were low: approx 160 deg exh & 66 deg transfer durations.

Really means that there is a lot more noise to be had. :ar15:

Flettner

7th January 2017, 18:36

Nice,:cool: Sounds the business.
So just end caps on the chambers and load up the dyno? Too easy:msn-wink:

husaberg

7th January 2017, 18:38

Slider update. A little bit of noise.

https://youtu.be/dT4btNAmjz0

Turns out that the stud that actuates the sliding cylinder broke, probably as a result of bending load reversals due to the fore and aft vibration of the (relatively heavy) lever.

Something to be addressed for the future. Notwithstanding, this meant that the cylinder running in the vid was in its down position, meaning that the ports were low: approx 160 deg exh & 66 deg transfer durations.

Really means that there is a lot more noise to be had. :ar15:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Al8t9Fuoo

, maybe bolt down that engine before you run it next time. plus great work

Flettner

7th January 2017, 19:02

Frits, are you watching?

TZ350

7th January 2017, 21:50

Slider update. A little bit of noise. https://youtu.be/dT4btNAmjz0

Hi Ken, sounds good, the engine rpm, was it being controlled by the cylinder sliding action?

Frits Overmars

7th January 2017, 21:52

Frits, are you watching?Yep :yes:, and listening :clap:. And celebrating :drinknsin.

WilDun

8th January 2017, 07:55

Well done so far Ken, you got it revving this time - keep it going, you and Flettner have got on to something other than the old mundane designs (all inspired by Frits of course!).

Thought I would point out a couple of links posted by Husa. on the "Oddball engines" thread, (post #1148) https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes/page77

The second one is very interesting in that it describes the Aluminium casting hurdles encountered in the development of the Hillman Imp engine.

breezy

8th January 2017, 08:38

Slider update. A little bit of noise.

Something to be addressed for the future. Notwithstanding, this meant that the cylinder running in the vid was in its down position, meaning that the ports were low: approx 160 deg exh & 66 deg transfer durations.

Really means that there is a lot more noise to be had. :ar15:

nice work ken....:woohoo::woohoo:

husaberg

8th January 2017, 14:50

Well worth a look at the detail of the casting water jackets etc
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15385

adegnes

8th January 2017, 18:41

nice work ken....:woohoo::woohoo:

+1 to that!
It looks so cool! I'm really excited to see how it behaves with the pipes done!

WilDun

8th January 2017, 19:59

Well worth a look at the detail of the casting water jackets etc
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15385

You always manage to dig up some very interesting stuff Husa! and "state of the art" too (well state of the art 4 years ago)........... and not two stroke, but comes a good second! ;)

ken seeber

8th January 2017, 21:51

Gotta agree with Willy, good find Hewsa. :clap:

Flettner

9th January 2017, 20:36

Got the bastard, ring feeder was the fix

ken seeber

9th January 2017, 22:39

It must be a female..:yes:

Frits Overmars

9th January 2017, 23:25

It must be a female..:yes:Do you think you can tame a female with a ring Ken? My experience points in the opposite direction.

WilDun

10th January 2017, 00:13

Got the bastard, ring feeder was the fix

To quote a famous Kiwi -" Well Neil, we knocked the bastard off".

But I'm still confused (as you'd expect), no sprues/risers? - just a ringfeeder?

Flettner

10th January 2017, 09:01

[QUOTE=WilDun;1131022862]To quote a famous Kiwi -" Well Neil, we knocked the bastard off".

But I'm still confused (as you'd expect), no sprues/risers? - just a ringfeeder?[/QUOTE

I'd already cut them off for the photo. I'd like at least two of these cylinders but seems I've damaged my crucible, It's got a crack running up it. Novus? Best I order another one now as it might take a while to get here from Mexico, apparently where they are made.

WilDun

10th January 2017, 10:52

Sorry, just noticed where one of them was in the second photo.

Yes, a cracked furnace is something that can be tolerated but a cracked crucible is something else!

WilDun

10th January 2017, 17:09

Well worth a look at the detail of the casting water jackets etc
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15385

Just looking at the surface of the valve stem (on the F1 details - scroll down almost two thirds), no one seems sure just what it is, but it looks for all the world like sintered bronze! then maybe it's the parent metal, heavily etched. - Somebody will know! :scratch:

husaberg

10th January 2017, 18:20

Just looking at the surface of the valve stem (on the F1 details - scroll down almost two thirds), no one seems sure just what it is, but it looks for all the world like sintered bronze! then maybe it's the parent metal, heavily etched. - Somebody will know! :scratch:

If you are meaning the surface of the valve It will have a slippery coat of something along the lines of Ti Nitrade

or are you meaning the pic with the valve inside the guide
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/chippievw/F1technical/F1Technical6001_zps4c519b1d.jpg
oh this one?

The stem of valve, complete with low friction texture surface coating for improved oil retention - remember, a hydrodynamic film is not easy sustain on a reciprocating valve stem and it is relying more-so on boundary lubrication. On close inspection it does look more like PVD coating but further testing required to be certain, the 'roughness' certainly does aid oil retention
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/chippievw/F1technical/F1technical5006_zpsa4a3948b.jpg
PVD

Physical vapor deposition (PVD) describes a variety of vacuum deposition methods which can be used to produce thin films and coatings. PVD is characterized by a process in which the material goes from a condensed phase to a vapor phase and then back to a thin film condensed phase. The most common PVD processes are sputtering and evaporation. PVD is used in the manufacture of items which require thin films for mechanical, optical, chemical or electronic functions. Examples include semiconductor devices such as thin film solar panels,[1] aluminized PET film for food packaging and balloons,[2] and coated cutting tools for metalworking.[3] Besides PVD tools for fabrication, special smaller tools (mainly for scientific purposes) have been developed.[4]
Common industrial coatings applied by PVD are titanium nitride, zirconium nitride, chromium nitride, titanium aluminum nitride.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_vapor_deposition

all the Ti Nitride i had previously seen was surface ground like a fork leg
interesting stuff.
From what i understand a lot of vlave guides are now made from aluminum bronze not sure re the racing stuff though.

Grumph

10th January 2017, 19:06

husaberg

10th January 2017, 19:42

Guides - from around the mid 80's a lot of production japanese valve guides were an iron based sintered material - hard as buggery too.
I've yet to find a better material for race guides than bronze of one variety or another.

The seats on that F1 head interest me. Beryllium copper - which is illegal now. I'd suspect that the old standby of Admiralty bronze or something similar is back. The racekit GSXR750 heads of the first gen motors had bronze seats - and very nice to work with too.
30 degree seat angles too - the old is new again.....

I'm a little dubious about the stem coatings - do you really need to maintain a film there ? Most bike 4V engines have very marginal stem lubrication - and live quite happily too. Any roughness will simply cut the guide out PDQ - In my experience anyway.

Remember those valves are air operated. likely piss all oil gets near them.
Pretty sure the blurb said 2% Be on the seats, not sure about the rest i only skimmed it.

The beryllium-copper alloy used for valve seats has less than 2% Be content. With 2% Be or less the alloy still has good thermal conductivity, plus it also has a good CTE match with the aluminum head material, good mechanical strength, and is compatible in contact with a titanium valve face.
Actually it might be in the Q&A afterwards.

Seen this which might interest flet and Ken

Cosworth used a pressure cast process, but I think it was implemented some time after Brian's head was made. I don't know much about the process, as I worked out of Northampton and Wellingborough. I do know however the alloy was pretty secretive and impossible to de-burr by machine, and were done by hand.

John

John, they did surely, it was pressurized into a zircon coated steel tool. This was mainly for mass production though, allowing faster cycle times and therefore reduced porosity due to upped pressures.
This then saved having to make new sand moulds for each shot, just spray tool with wash when open and away you go. Temperature can be also controlled locally via coolant channels, providing chilled areas to thicker sections.
Sand cores for coolant galleries still need manual placement within tool though as with current mass produced cylinder heads
I always wondered how they did it
Same coated steel dies by the sound of it
that zeconium is available a PVD like ti nitride
http://www.pvdcoatings.net/faq
so i guess it blocks the heat and resists losing the steel.

WilDun

11th January 2017, 08:06

I still think it's heavily etched and ground, - but I have often been wrong - I accept that! :facepalm:

Grumph

11th January 2017, 08:13

I still think it's heavily etched and ground, - but I have often been wrong and I can accept that!

I'm wondering if it's chemical erosion. The engines from that period used rocket fuel - and they are actually used parts.

The divergent valve guides used in conjunction with parallel cam follower buckets must put side load on the stems too...

husaberg

11th January 2017, 10:20

I'm wondering if it's chemical erosion. The engines from that period used rocket fuel - and they are actually used parts.

The divergent valve guides used in conjunction with parallel cam follower buckets must put side load on the stems too...

Pretty sure those the cam followers are radially mounted
327867327868

and the cams are schewed.
327869
But yeah it could be just errosion

Hey Greg what does the MV/Cagiva radial valve set up look like Same as this?
Pretty sure ferari designers designed the top end of those.

Grumph

11th January 2017, 12:49

190mech

11th January 2017, 12:53

If you stick with 2 strokes,none of that complicated "valve stuff" is needed!!:msn-wink:

Grumph

11th January 2017, 13:02

If you stick with 2 strokes,none of that complicated "valve stuff" is needed!!:msn-wink:

Had that argument with an RG500 owner years back. His engine had more valves than mine. If it was done now it would have even more....

monkeyfumi

11th January 2017, 13:46

Hey Greg what does the MV/Cagiva radial valve set up look like Same as this?
Pretty sure ferari designers designed the top end of those.

Piero Ferrari (Enzo's illegitimate son, and a gifted engineer in his own right) did the original MV F4 head design (which has radial valves)

husaberg

11th January 2017, 13:53

No idea on the MV. I note reading further on in that F1 thread that they're now interposing finger followers between cam and bucket. Those are apparently angle faced and the cams plain parallel. That head certainly looks like parallel buckets - but apparently not so.
That guy's foundry book when it comes out will be worth reading...

i just googled it.
I remembered that Ferarri had a fair bit of imput into the cagiva F4 that beame the MV
Its pretty similar by the look of it.
327876327877327878327879327880327881

That said whilst looking for pics i found this
This is how i always thought phenematic valves were suposed to work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Bch5B23_pu0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3cFfM3r510

Flettner

11th January 2017, 16:42

This electric valve idea has been around a long time now, hasn't it been decided that the energy needed to actuate the valves electrically is more than a cam and drive uses. AND the cam gives back a certain amount of energy as the springs return, you will find these cam-less engines run huge alternators. If this is such a good idea, why aren't they in use everywhere now? Just another gimmick.

Grumph

11th January 2017, 19:00

There was an old guy here in ChCh who i've mentioned before in conjunction with his time in the experimental engine div of Chevy....When it first became known that they were using pneumatics in F1, he asked his old mate Brian Hart ( a friend from Cooper F1 days)how it worked. He then started developing what he called the next logical step.
Hydraulic actuation - and return - of the valves. He told me they'd talked about it at Chevy but not done anything.
He reckoned that a microprocessor could vary the valve timing as required - and was confident the actual hydraulic side of it was do-able.
He had built a mockup of the pump and valvetrain - which he said worked - at the time he got sick and lost his premises.
No idea what happened to any of it.

Frits Overmars

11th January 2017, 23:06

I note reading further on in that F1 thread that they're now interposing finger followers between cam and bucket. Those are apparently angle faced and the cams plain parallel.F1 has been using radial four-valve (they call it compound) heads with finger followers between the conventional parallel cams and the valve stems for the past ten years or so. There are no more buckets, just pneumatic spring bellows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bch5B23_pu0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3cFfM3r510I love the way Christian von Koenigsegg talks about his freevalve engine. The man is passionate but he manages to stick to facts, avoiding any commercial bullshit.
If I wanted to keep myself occupied with four-strokes, I would definitely book a flight to Sweden.

husaberg

11th January 2017, 23:27

F1 has been using radial four-valve (they call it compound) heads with finger followers between the conventional parallel cams and the valve stems for the past ten years or so. There are no more buckets, just pneumatic spring bellows.

I love the way Christian von Koenigsegg talks about his freevalve engine. The man is passionate but he manages to stick to facts, avoiding any commercial bullshit.
If I wanted to keep myself occupied with four-strokes, I would definitely book a flight to Norway.

Yeah the advantage i see is infinitely variable timing and square profiles. plus dropping cylinders and firing orders at will.
the regenitive aspect is cool too
I remember the half a ducati supercharge concept bike.
Maybe in the future we could hear again ultra high speed Detroit diesels singing.

WilDun

11th January 2017, 23:45

If you stick with 2 strokes,none of that complicated "valve stuff" is needed!!:msn-wink:

Trouble is, they didn't even consider two strokes in the first place, and look at the trouble and expense it's caused!

GRUMPH. -I think you've nailed it!........ but that's really "unintentional etching " - so I was right! :laugh:

monkeyfumi

12th January 2017, 08:40

I love the way Christian von Koenigsegg talks about his freevalve engine. The man is passionate but he manages to stick to facts, avoiding any commercial bullshit.
If I wanted to keep myself occupied with four-strokes, I would definitely book a flight to Norway.

Er, Sweden Frits?

Frits Overmars

12th January 2017, 22:19

Er, Sweden Frits?Er, I was just checking how many of you have recovered from the holidays by now. Seems like so far you're the only one with a clear head, Monkeyfumi.
(and thanks for pointing it out; I corrected it).

Flettner

13th January 2017, 18:27

Off the foundry Supplies again, this is getting expensive.:shit:

WilDun

14th January 2017, 09:19

Off the foundry Supplies again, this is getting expensive.:shit:

Looks like you got your new crucible no problem and I'm guessing that pail contains sodium silicate, the stuff on top is self explanatory. I see it comes from either Christchurch,or Auckland, but there must be a supplier/distributor in Waikato somewhere?

Flettner

16th January 2017, 19:58

No such luck, Waikato does milk not casting:oi-grr:

WilDun

16th January 2017, 20:11

No such luck, Waikato does milk not casting:oi-grr:

You're probably right, I worked in the Waikato for a couple of years!
They were quite keen on motorcycle sport and maybe even a touch of rugby union! (or was it the other way round?) :rolleyes: But the "Cockies" took to bikes like ducks to water! and later on many of their farmbikes became Bucket Racers!
I remember being a little pissed off when I found that hardly anybody had even heard of Hugh Anderson who was a world motorcycle champion at that time (1966) and a Waikato guy!

WilDun

18th January 2017, 14:07

I had hoped to drag out my furnace today and do a trial melt after modifying my burner slightly, but the wind these last two days has been pretty fierce and being in close proximity to my neighbours thought it might be best to forget it for now - better safe than sorry, I guess!
So I'll get all the gear (boxes, tongs crucibles etc. all stowed away for over a year) ready for the off and hope for better conditios towards the end of the week.
Getting on well with the neighbours at present and I want it to stay that way!

I think that I'll just use greensand and make a few ingots first though till I brush up on my mould design, patternmaking and moulding skills, hoping eventually to use silicate sand - a practice session using silicate sand would be more expensive and would create a mountain of non reusable sand. I've not got enough space here for that. My educated guess says that a melt (using LPG) costs around $16 - $18, that's not bad, I can wear that, plus it's a clean way to do it in my (cramped) circumstances.

A sand mountain also might interfere with our "Latee' sipping" sessions when we sit around discussing art etc., (as we all do up here :rolleyes:) and I don't want to appear rough and uncultured, even though I may be - that's why I never open my garage door when anybody's around (except to the privileged few of course) :laugh:

UPDATE
It's the next day and would you believe it - it's raining! so no furnace today, then tomorrow and the next day I won't have time to do it!
Meanwhile in Aus, Ken & co are trying to dodge 40deg temperatures and I've had to put my singlet back on and even consider going back to longs! :rolleyes:

husaberg

23rd January 2017, 19:19

A couple of weeks ago i hit the wrong button on my home computer which is MS windows 10
Intersting thing is MS10 had a in built program that can change 2D pictures to 3D images and even reverse them to a pattern.
you can then 3d print the results
Its not as great as a lot of other expensive programs but it is free and pretty simple if you have MS10 have a play just right click on a picture file and selct 3D with 3D build it should be near the top.
You can also scan an obect in 3d and then create a true 3d model

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbDkJ7cRrA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5XLbznDkNA

WilDun

23rd January 2017, 20:56

husaberg

23rd January 2017, 21:30

That sounds good, will give it a try tomorrow!

You can also create a 3d image with a simple camera

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6eqW6yk50k
That said 3d scanner are not so hard to find you can even get them to add to a Apple I pad or other tablet.

ken seeber

24th January 2017, 00:50

You can also create a 3d image with a simple camera

That said 3d scanner are not so hard to find you can even get them to add to a Apple I pad or other tablet.

Ok WhoSir, seeing we’re Android types, we don’t have an Apple anything. So, can you take a happy snap of your favourite body part (best your face or something nice, given the unknown of any possible juvenile audience here), send us the .stl file and we’ll print it up on the 3d printer. It’ll be either black in ABS or black in ABS.:mellow:

husaberg

24th January 2017, 05:33

Ok WhoSir, seeing we’re Android types, we don’t have an Apple anything. So, can you take a happy snap of your favourite body part (best your face or something nice, given the unknown of any possible juvenile audience here), send us the .stl file and we’ll print it up on the 3d printer. It’ll be either black in ABS or black in ABS.:mellow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t99IxaaRg7Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvjF-_WOw6c

This one works with anrooid if you adapt the chassis mount and use a adaptor lead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH94Hg_Qr1A
Just as well the softwear has scaling for when the hardwear is worn

https://structure.io/android
The smartphone apps are likely way way cheaper.
From what i understand there is a big andriod and MS push for 2017 with new stuff.

CunninghamJames007

24th January 2017, 08:22

My first job was at a 3D scanning place [http://www.formscan3d.co.nz/]. We used a combination of 'photogrammetry' and a 'white light' scanner which consisted of a projector and two cameras that "looked" at the surface you were scanning. It would spit out an extremely accurate STL surface of the object you were looking at which could then be fiddled with in CAD.

Thanks to the photogrammetry step, we were getting accuracy down to the 50 micrometer ball-park, and that could be up to anything as large as a dinner table. We did scan a few medium sized boats but the accuracy dropped to +/- 3-5 mm.

Photogrammetry is pretty much what those mobile phone scanners are doing. In our case we had to manually add reference points all over object (small "dot" stickers) and then we would take around 100 - 150 photos of the object, from as many different angles as possible. The computer would then tie them all together and produce a network for the scanner to over-lay it's scanned surfaces onto. It's not free, but damn she's accurate. It'd be spot on for scanning fairing or a chassis.

Not good for scanning people tho, as they had a tendency to breathe and move which was always frustrating.

TZ350

24th January 2017, 11:33

...given the unknown of any possible juvenile audience here...

What Me ........ :bleh: ...... never :laugh:

ken seeber

28th January 2017, 14:55

Finally got some time (just dunno where it is all going, well I do, just been busy with other stuff) and zapped on the convergent cones. Hmmm 39/40 deg today. Saves on electricity for the TIG I guess.

Next the outlet pipes and then the dyno.

328210

speedpro

28th January 2017, 15:01

I expected the pipes to look narrower given that there are 3 of them. Cumulatively there must be a lot of area at any set distance from the piston when you combine all 3 pipes.

Grumph

28th January 2017, 15:25

husaberg

28th January 2017, 17:25

I'd think you still want the same expansion ratio or header to pipe belly ratio to make them work...

I think back to the twin port CZ's which used two full size pipes - not sophisticated ones by any means, but they worked.

Kens had experiernce with a Twin pipe converted YZ125? that was posted on the Pitlane forum.
I will see if i can dig up a pic.

WilDun

28th January 2017, 18:32

I'd think you still want the same expansion ratio or header to pipe belly ratio to make them work...

I think back to the twin port CZ's which used two full size pipes - not sophisticated ones by any means, but they worked.

They certainly didn't look very sophisticated after a couple of hard races! - they looked decidedly secondhand! - how did I know? well, those bikes were often seen lying on their sides,( pipes in full view), just to clear the flooding on the Jikov carbs!!
From memory, they had CI barrels and Magnesium crankcases (ie the works machines). other than that they were great bikes :msn-wink:
and they were still way better than anything else at the time!

Oh dear, am I being negative again? - really must do something about that. :rolleyes:

ken seeber

28th January 2017, 19:54

I expected the pipes to look narrower given that there are 3 of them. Cumulatively there must be a lot of area at any set distance from the piston when you combine all 3 pipes.

Speedpro, to design the pipes, I used Frit’s empirical FOS exh design method. Essentially the engine is 106 cc, so I treated each pipe as being for 35 cc, 15000 rpm, 550 met/sec, 200 deg exh duration and 14 hp engine. The belly dia that I calculated and used was/is IØ73.9. Squaring this and multiplying by 3 and then square rooting, this gives 127.9. Going back, and calculating this area for a 125, gives a diameter of Ø138.9. I looked up the diameter of a TM KZ10C engine and this shows Ø135. Must say I am not sure if this is outside or inside. Either way, in the ballpark.
Jeez, there are just so many other things (read unknowns) going on, that even if is a bit out, it’s still gotta be halfway reasonable.
Irrespective, it will make some reasonable noise. What are neighbours for anyway?:clap:

ken seeber

6th February 2017, 00:39

Have a squiz at this. An interesting mix of shell cores, CO2 cores and green sand. All foul stroke stuff though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8cOVp2kjRg&feature=youtu.be

I'm pretty sure this is American. :psst:

WilDun

6th February 2017, 07:56

Have a squiz at this. An interesting mix of shell cores, CO2 cores and green sand. All foul stroke stuff though.
I'm pretty sure this is American. :psst:

It is very interesting indeed! coremaking at its finest! - don't think I would like to actually work there but a visit would be very interesting - I am amazed that all the different kinds of coremaking are still represented - I had thought that all the big time companies would have been into coresand/shellsand - exclusively!

Flettner

15th February 2017, 19:54

WilDun

15th February 2017, 21:48

It's all gone quiet? I'm up to stuff but won't be posting until I get some real results worth displaying here. I'm trying to tidy up some unfinished projects. Anyone else care to show off some foundry stuff?

I would like to, I haven't yet got much to offer but I hope to get some basic stuff done before (long before) the bad weather sets in. Michael Moore seems to have been busy machining and fitting all the heads etc which he cast last year, Ken in Aus is busy with his "slider" project, and all those European guys who started off well, seem to have disappeared! - guess I'll just have to kick myself into life and come up with something which works!

Michael Moore

16th February 2017, 13:59

No, I have been busy making some brake levers and stay arms for a friend's 210mm Fontana 4LS brake. Jeff's got my head patterns to make the mold boxes for them. But our race season starts in a couple of months so if he wants a head for his F37 Kawasaki he'll need to get cracking! That presumes the heads will cast successfully.

cheers,
Michael

ken seeber

17th February 2017, 14:19

Well not really anything to do with engines, but we had to do some lead casting. No moulds, but had to fill the six pockets in these counterweight wheels. These were plasma cut from 90 mm steel and had an outside radius of 300. The bare item weighed around 60 kg and each lead filled pocket weighed around 9 kg.
Someone had previously done them, but in one instance, they must have cast one pocket in 2 stages. The lead seems to immediately form an oxide skin. Presumably the second stage it didn’t stick and this came loose and was thrown out. No-one was happy.
So we filled in one continuous process, not using a ladle
We played an LPG flame over the top surface to ensure a molten pool was always present to feed the shrinkage. Even so, we also had to create a dam around the pocket to create an extra thickness to ensure a complete fill after being machined flat.
Pouring temp around 420 C. Had some reasonably interesting moments getting it sorted though.

328649328648

Grumph

17th February 2017, 18:54

Nice, did you preheat the steel complete or just preheat one and let the poured lead warm the next ?

Back in the day that would probably have been finished by hand with a small adze and scraper. I've faired lead keels like that when no power tools were available...

WilDun

18th February 2017, 08:37

[QUOTE=ken seeber;1131030851]Well not really anything to do with engines, but we had to do some lead casting. No moulds,QUOTE]

Ken, I thought for a moment you were building a "super slider"

ken seeber

18th February 2017, 11:46

Greg, we preheated one end first to around 80 to ensure no moisture was present. We filled this and when frozen we progressed to the next cavity, this being well warmed from both the lead and the post pouring flame.

Will, nah, can't really see many/any areas for lead in a bike/engine other than battery terminals and wheel balance weights.

Over here in central Sydney for family get together stuff. No foundries, TIGs. mills, lathes and now, the fingernails are clean. Few bikes around, one dude had an interesting bike, an RZ400 in a TZ250 frame, smoked nicely and sounded sweet.

328663

F5 Dave

18th February 2017, 12:30

That just makes me want to ride it.

Flettner

2nd March 2017, 20:23

WilDun

5th March 2017, 10:34

Dangerous, a clear pattern bench.

Yes it does look a little forlorn but at least it's going to see some action again - we all know that development work never pays the bills till it produces something which can be sold, but I imagine the experimental stuff could soak up time and money, if not kept in control!

My play bench is still packed full of crap and is producing nothing, but hopefully things will be in motion soon seeing it's moved into Autumn already - more rain coming I'm told.
I modified the burner on my furnace and all seems well, it doesn't look very good (but performance is more important than looks to me) - I will make a new tidier one when I've got it all sussed and have done a melt - I'm a great fan of trial and error and not looking for perfection - just enough to do a good job!
I now need to brush up on the pattern/moulding technique (again) and need to get the safety thing right as I may be working on my own the odd time!

What were we looking at? Next project, a twin rotary valve bottom end?

D'y reckon it's time to move away from crankcase pumping altogether??

Frits Overmars

11th March 2017, 05:48

D'y reckon it's time to move away from crankcase pumping altogether??Let me call it sub-piston pumping. And then I'd say it is the simplest starting provision you can have on a two-stroke engine. Once it's running, well......

WilDun

12th March 2017, 13:50

Let me call it sub-piston pumping. And then I'd say it is the simplest starting provision you can have on a two-stroke engine. Once it's running, well......

Yes I guess you could call it that, just so long as the crankcase itself isn't involved and forgetting (in the meantime) going "oilless" which could easily become a priority, it could hold up a lot of other good development - I feel that might just be a "bridge too far"!

husaberg

12th March 2017, 13:52

Dangerous, a clear pattern bench.
What were we looking at? Next project, a twin rotary valve bottom end? Patterns on the bench at the momemt are a three gear reduction drive to suit V8 , 600HP aviation use.

Or a single crank V4 500cc 2 stroke for the masses.
Something like a GSXR750/1000 gearbox
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=314161&d=1438074377

Bert

12th March 2017, 17:52

Or a single crank V4 500cc 2 stroke for the masses.
Something like a GSXR750/1000 gearbox
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=314161&d=1438074377

Yes please...
I've got two complete 1KT engines screaming to be joined together....

husaberg

12th March 2017, 18:08

Yes please...
I've got two complete 1KT engines screaming to be joined together....
Although they do have pretty decent size reeds they are a little underdone in the stroke.
If you have to add yamaha bits I think they need to have separate crankpins. So I was thinking 2 RD250 AC cranks.
What say you Flettner?

Flettner

13th March 2017, 18:49

No, a 700 twin is what it will be, been negotiating with my build partner, he wants reed, I don't. So after a ride on the F9, it's going to be variable rotary valve, EFI. Maybe a V, maybe a parallel twin?
No, a V is what has been decided.

ken seeber

14th March 2017, 00:26

Let me call it sub-piston pumping. And then I'd say it is the simplest starting provision you can have on a two-stroke engine. Once it's running, well......
I like it. It's been a while, but we now have another acronym....SPP <_<

Yes please...
I've got two complete 1KT engines screaming to be joined together....

Bert, when you say 1KT, do you mean Yamaha KT100S kart engines? Depending on the application, one could run them side by side, fin tips almost touching. Then couple them in the middle with a chain drive take off. Would mean reversing the crankcase on one of the engines and you can get reverse direction ignition rotors. Would be wide, smokey and noisy and 40 hp. Could also give Frits the opportunity to demo a compact 2 into 1 exhaust to keep Willy happy. :eek:

F5 Dave

14th March 2017, 05:56

1KT= first model TZR250
Followed by same 2MA, reverse 3MA, v twin. 3XV

husaberg

14th March 2017, 17:34

I like it. It's been a while, but we now have another acronym....SPP <_<

Bert, when you say 1KT, do you mean Yamaha KT100S kart engines? Depending on the application, one could run them side by side, fin tips almost touching. Then couple them in the middle with a chain drive take off. Would mean reversing the crankcase on one of the engines and you can get reverse direction ignition rotors. Would be wide, smokey and noisy and 40 hp. Could also give Frits the opportunity to demo a compact 2 into 1 exhaust to keep Willy happy. :eek:

1KT= first model TZR250
Followed by same 2MA, reverse 3MA, v twin. 3XV

I think only us and the Japanase called the origional model the 1KT.
To the rest of the world from what i understand they started out as 2MA's.
There is a 2XT as well.
http://www.nostalgicsportsbikes.com/yamaha-tzr-250-1kt2ma2xt.html

Niels Abildgaard

14th March 2017, 22:05

No, a 700 twin is what it will be.A V is what has been decided.

Hello Flettner

Wise choice.
Am dreaming of a single crank 90 degree V2.
Have tried to scheme a standard 2 conrod side by side on a single pin arrangement.
Problem is that the two needle cages go up and down in angular velocity and make renewal nessecary very often.
A solution can be to have a sligthly bigger common needle cage running inside a ring and the let each conrod ride on this ring or cylinder with uncaged needles like some pistonpins.329302

Frits Overmars

15th March 2017, 00:11

Am dreaming of a single crank 90 degree V2. Have tried to scheme a standard 2 conrod side by side on a single pin arrangement. Problem is that the two needle cages go up and down in angular velocity and make renewal nessecary very often.
A solution can be to have a sligthly bigger common needle cage running inside a ring and the let each conrod ride on this ring or cylinder with uncaged needles like some pistonpins.329302Niels, the total angular movement of a small end bearing over one crankshaft revolution is about 6 x less than the total angular movement of the big end bearing.
What works in a small end (and even that is doubtful) may not work in a big end.

Niels Abildgaard

15th March 2017, 00:23

Flettner

15th March 2017, 07:36

Frits

My hope is that the single inside /outside bearing ring will rotate with the crankshaft mean velocity and the two rows of uncaged needles only even the angle difference between the two conrods out.
I will try to make an animation.And show it here if it works.

Am I missing something? Wouldn't you just use two complete big ends (singular) and fit thrust washer between them? Ie three thrust washers in all.

I'm going to just make it a single crank with the center section one piece, EN39B case hardened, including crank pins. The center bearing will be a split roller with a split labyrinth seal. This is to try to keep the engine as narrow as practical. Being EFI there will be no carburetor stuck out each side, just a bellmouth into an air box. Also having a V will free up space around the cylinder for injectors where a parallel twin would be more difficult.

TZ350

15th March 2017, 09:25

I'm going to just make it a single crank with the center section one piece, EN39B case hardened, including crank pins. The center bearing will be a split roller with a split labyrinth seal. This is to try to keep the engine as narrow as practical. Being EFI there will be no carburetor stuck out each side, just a bellmouth into an air box. Also having a V will free up space around the cylinder for injectors where a parallel twin would be more difficult.

I like this very much .... :niceone:

WilDun

15th March 2017, 15:30

Am I missing something? Wouldn't you just use two complete big ends (singular) and fit thrust washer between them? Ie three thrust washers in all.

I'm going to just make it a single crank with the center section one piece, EN39B case hardened, including crank pins. The center bearing will be a split roller with a split labyrinth seal. This is to try to keep the engine as narrow as practical. Being EFI there will be no carburetor stuck out each side, just a bellmouth into an air box. Also having a V will free up space around the cylinder for injectors where a parallel twin would be more difficult.

Will it be 1 labryrinth seal with 1 needle roller bearing on each side or 1 needle roller with a labrynth seal on each side or ........ am I'm just thick?? :rolleyes:

Just dragging my furnace out from under a tarp outside (where it's been for about 6 weeks) - might need to go careful with the warm up and make sure it's dry before I light the burner! - guess a lightbulb overnight and half an hour with a heat gun, then it'll be all on - a race against time before winter starts to set in, also before your new project sets in!

husaberg

15th March 2017, 19:20

Am I missing something? Wouldn't you just use two complete big ends (singular) and fit thrust washer between them? Ie three thrust washers in all.

I'm going to just make it a single crank with the center section one piece, EN39B case hardened, including crank pins. The center bearing will be a split roller with a split labyrinth seal. This is to try to keep the engine as narrow as practical. Being EFI there will be no carburetor stuck out each side, just a bellmouth into an air box. Also having a V will free up space around the cylinder for injectors where a parallel twin would be more difficult.

Neil you don't need the lab seal just a piston ring
Then you can share the one crankpin just like a Ducati.
The Jbb Engine
Also both inlets on one side so even narrower.
329307329308329309329310

Grumph

15th March 2017, 19:36

I look at that JBB crank and think...I've got enough Villiers bits here to do that.......Even the simple case halves could be used.....

husaberg

15th March 2017, 19:51

I look at that JBB crank and think...I've got enough Villiers bits here to do that.......Even the simple case halves could be used.....

You might want to use a real big end bearing though.
If you ever run short of villiers engines the old has a shed full (literally)
Remember that doubled up 2t V4 with a supercharger.
329311
http://www.thecampervanchronicles.de/villiers_v4.htm

Niels Abildgaard

16th March 2017, 05:39

Frits

My hope is that the single inside /outside bearing ring will rotate with the crankshaft mean velocity and the two rows of uncaged needles only even the angle difference between the two conrods out.
I will try to make an animation.And show it here if it works.

Not an animation but three pictures showing my revolutionary V2 crank system for two strokes.
I have something to do the next couple of days trying to understand if it works.
Between crankpin and floating bearing ring there is a normal caged needle bearing,but this turns at a constant angular velocityand lasts forever.
Each conrod rides the floating ring on uncaged needles but the angular displacement is very small during one revolution.

329314329315329316

Grumph

16th March 2017, 05:58

Niels Abildgaard

16th March 2017, 07:34

But is the extra layer (no pun) of complexity really neccessary ?

KISS - and proven technology should be satisfactory IMO.

I asked a danish maker of superkart engines why his crankpins were 22mm instead of 25 and his explanation was more or less that conrod bigend area life was short enough as is.
Some italian makers used 25 mm pins for cranks and had even shorter lives.
Frits, I think, has explained that cages live a very hard life due to the violent angular accelerations and this gets worse with bigger crankpin diameter.
present day technology is not good enough.

Grumph

16th March 2017, 08:40

Well - yes and no...I think I've seen somewhere a pin size/bearing load sheet from INA which suggested that crankpins at least in the 80's were unneccessarily large OD for the loads. Cage lfe has been getting better as materials and surface treatments have improved. The INA needle roller bigends are pretty good...
The big tradeoff is crank stiffness vs load capacity. The small pins can handle the loads with a suitable bearing but if case stiffness isn't optimum the crank is going to move - which leads to fretting and what looks like a failure due to a too small pin...

As sims have got better and the virtues of longer rods have been shown, the big end accelerations have at least stayed constant - as revs have been able to rise without exceeding known safe levels...

Frits Overmars

16th March 2017, 10:01

I asked a danish maker of superkart engines why his crankpins were 22mm instead of 25 and his explanation was more or less that conrod bigend area life was short enough as is.
Some italian makers used 25 mm pins for cranks and had even shorter lives.
Frits, I think, has explained that cages live a very hard life due to the violent angular accelerations and this gets worse with bigger crankpin diameter.That's right Niels. Bigger crankpin diameters lead to heavier cages with more polar inertia, and more and/or bigger needles that put up a bigger struggle against those angular accelerations. The rolling velocity of the needles is proportional to the crankpin diameter, and so is their angular acceleration. In short: the needles will tend to skid instead of roll.
But wait, there's more. A big end bearing does not just rotate; it is flung around the crankshaft center and all needles try to crowd towards the outside.
In a cageless bearing all needles push in the same outward direction and the outermost needles are heavily pushed against each other, causing so much friction between them that the lubricant may char. These pushing forces increase with the crankpin diameter and with the total mass of the needles. All in all the crankpin diameter can be too big for its own good.
Niels, note that this centrifugally-induced friction will occur even if your cageless big end bearing would rotate with a uniform velocity without any angular acceleration.

I think I've seen somewhere a pin size/bearing load sheet from INA which suggested that crankpins at least in the 80's were unneccessarily large OD for the loads. The big tradeoff is crank stiffness vs load capacity. The small pins can handle the loads with a suitable bearing but if case stiffness isn't optimum the crank is going to move - which leads to fretting and what looks like a failure due to a too small pin...That's it Grumph. Bearing load is not a problem. Crankshaft stiffness demands large crankpin diameters while heat generated through needle skidding demands modest diameters, It's a Catch 22-situation. Maybe that is why many engine makers went for a 22 mm pin :msn-wink:.

Come to think of it: Fletto, how is that epicycloid crank coming along?

guyhockley

16th March 2017, 11:01

dark art

17th March 2017, 02:45

But is the extra layer (no pun) of complexity really neccessary ?

I do remember reading somewhere, probably Jan writings, the Aprilia 125 RSA big end last an entire season on dyno testing. Frits, can you confirm this?

Being like this, current big end tecnology is quite enough for the level of power being developed. That said, things are in constantly evolution and doesn't hurt to improve what is alreay good :2thumbsup

Frits Overmars

17th March 2017, 06:57

I do remember reading somewhere, probably Jan writings, the Aprilia 125 RSA big end last an entire season on dyno testing. Frits, can you confirm this?Yes I can.

WilDun

17th March 2017, 13:07

But is the extra layer (no pun) of complexity really neccessary ?

The whole bearing looks too much IMO like the floating bush bigends originated by Henri in the 1920's and perpetuated by Royal Enfield.
These proved to be too heavy and suffered from a lack of lubrication to the inner bearing.

KISS - and proven technology should be satisfactory IMO.

Yes and the RE bushes were a helluva lot heavier (might have been brass with white metal coating) - but in saying that, they were still useful after being worn out in the big end, - I used one as a spacer to fit Matchless front forks to my old Model G! - try doing that with a stuffed needle roller! :laugh:

Grumph

17th March 2017, 18:53

Yes and the RE bushes were a helluva lot heavier (might have been brass with white metal coating) - but in saying that, they were still useful after being worn out in the big end, - I used one as a spacer to fit Matchless front forks to my old Model G! - try doing that with a stuffed needle roller! :laugh:

Some years back I finished off an Aermacchi race engine build which had been started by a South African who brought it with him when he emigrated here.
He sold it to an Auckland based customer of mine.
It had some nice bits and some dubious ones...I got to know him later and he came out to visit me. When he walked into the workshop I reached up to the shelf and handed him a silver bracelet. Here - a gift for your wife, you've paid for it...
It was the rod insert and needle roller bigend from the macchi rod - all fused into one solid lump which had spun in the rod after about 2 hours use on Pukekohe..An english aftermarket part.

For Husa - A Bladen bros part. they were the go-to people for macchi bits for a while.

husaberg

17th March 2017, 19:46

Some years back I finished off an Aermacchi race engine build which had been started by a South African who brought it with him when he emigrated here.
He sold it to an Auckland based customer of mine.
It had some nice bits and some dubious ones...I got to know him later and he came out to visit me. When he walked into the workshop I reached up to the shelf and handed him a silver bracelet. Here - a gift for your wife, you've paid for it...
It was the rod insert and needle roller bigend from the macchi rod - all fused into one solid lump which had spun in the rod after about 2 hours use on Pukekohe..An english aftermarket part.

Alpha?
RE big end was their designers answer because they could not obtain solid plated cadges for the big ends. Like a modern race two stroke has.
As Frits mentioned cycli variations in speed plays havoc on heavy and weak bearings.

husaberg

17th March 2017, 19:50

Not to detract from the brilliant JBB engine but the sealing ring between the rods is pretty common on V4, V6 and V8 outboards.
Most extreme example is probably Konig 3 and 4 cylinder radial engines for powered paragliders, no idea if that's the same Konig as the Kim Newcombe one, or if they're still going.
I've also seen an outboard crankcase that seemed to have labyrinth seals machined into it.

They certainly do.
http://www.lubegard.com/images/mercury-crank.jpg

i always liked the rd200 lab seal over bearins for space saving
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=318037&d=1450508329
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4991&attachmentid=318036

I think the Konig as it was a 180 opposed four only had seals on the outside and maybe the middle but it should have not needed it for the opppsed pairs.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=310098&d=1426758309

guyhockley

19th March 2017, 00:50

Modern version of the Konig 4

http://konny.cz/price_b/2s.htm

There are other manufacturers of hydroplane racing engines making "boxer" engines such as Arens, Vrm and Rossi using similar cranks.

Also the Swissauto/MuZ V4 was a kind of bent flat 4:

guyhockley

19th March 2017, 01:52

Interesting Konig variation by yet another clever, Dutch tuner, Dirk de Jager. Modified Hoekle/Konig crank, home made case and TZ250 barrels.

Pictures stolen, with blatant disregard of copyright law, from a 1979 article by some young whipper-snapper called Frits Overmaars...:eek5:

Frits Overmars

19th March 2017, 02:35

Pictures stolen, with blatant disregard of copyright law, from a 1979 article by some young whipper-snapper called Frits Overmars...:eek5:You're welcome :D. Glad to see that at least some of my former work made it to eternity :p.

husaberg

22nd March 2017, 19:43

Paging mr Moore
http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?11802-Air-cooled-2-cycle-motorcycle-racing-cylinder

Michael Moore

23rd March 2017, 05:14

What can I help you with? I think that Alloy Avenue thread has most of the information on Jeff's cylinder project, but there might be something additional on his highwaymanbikes website though if there is I'm not finding it.

My replica Webco head is stalled at the mold boxes/match plate stage right now and likely to stay that way until higher priority things are out of the way.

WilDun

23rd March 2017, 10:31

What can I help you with? My replica Webco head is stalled at the mold boxes/match plate stage right now and likely to stay that way until higher priority things are out of the way.

Good to hear from someone on foundry stuff, I think Flettner is starting a new project but I'm sure that his "bread & butter day job" keeps him pretty busy.
As for me I want to get going again and move on from being a novice foundryman to learn more, but it can really only be learnt through hands on practice, the theory isn't enough in this game!
Then, there's the ever growing threat that we might be moving house looming closer (to a smaller place, which realistically could finish off my dreams of a workshop/foundry!) !
I've already disposed of two (small) lathes to try and de-congest my garage and now only have one micro size one left! and my furnace is sitting there waiting eagerly to be lit up!

But let's be positive and live in hope!:yes:

husaberg

23rd March 2017, 18:22

Michael Moore

24th March 2017, 03:41

Jeff posted a link in February of 2016:

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/162399-The-Bucket-Foundry?p=1130946414#post1130946414

I wish I had some secret project that I could dazzle you with! The focus right now is trying to sell 7 bikes (I've already sold all my Motobi bikes/parts) and get to the point where I can give up 50-75% of my warehouse storage space. There's been far too many spares/bikes accumulated on the basis of "I might need something like that some day for some project" and it is long past time for a serious culling of the herd.

I've realized that it is actually possible to have too much stuff, especially if a person hasn't been super discriminating on the kind of stuff that has been accumulated.

cheers,
Michael

Grumph

24th March 2017, 07:00

The "late life crisis" where you realise you're never going to get all the projects done in this lifetime is a well known phenomenon Michael...

I've acquired a couple of projects from friends going through just this phase - and for the last couple of years have been entering it myself.
Currently partway through a run of engines - then get the Lyster Honda done as far as the owner's limited budget will allow (and out of here)
Then clear up a couple of my own projects, then sit back hopefully.

Michael Moore

24th March 2017, 07:32

Grumph

24th March 2017, 08:54

I know exactly what you're describing with the BSA...and don't want to go there thanks.

I suspect that banning myself from forums might help the situation as all the forums do is give you ideas....

WilDun

24th March 2017, 09:36

Greg, I'm now also kind of tired of old motorcycles -- the flaws are now just flaws, not "character". .......... the British m/c industry should have done a better job of noticing what their competition was doing and not been so complacent in pushing out the same old crap, just because they could.

Most of the "chaps" at the top were not motorcyclists and only concerned with the financial gains and their elevated position in society. Also because of the belief that all these "damn chaps" (engineers and true enthusiasts who worked for them) didn't actually have brains and had to be guided in business matters! - they couldn't even maintain that!

I know exactly what you're describing with the BSA...and don't want to go there thanks.

I suspect that banning myself from forums might help the situation as all the forums do is give you ideas....

Ideas on forums can be good or bad, some can actually be useful! - some just make you want to rant! :facepalm:

Golden years? - something I dreamed of long ago - a bit like finding the end of the rainbow!
You and Grumph are giving them a go by actually doing (and I know you have done) the things you wanted to - I will continue to be interested and try to do that as well - however, just for the moment some things for me (like moving for one) are in a flux ..... I'm not down yet and I do know things will rally! :yes:

husaberg

24th March 2017, 16:23

Greg, I'm now also kind of tired of old motorcycles -- the flaws are now just flaws, not "character". I've got a lot of cool parts for a B50MX engine for pre75 VMX and I'll try and do that and build a frame, but every time I look at the unit single it makes me think that the designers at BSA must not have been given enough thrashings by their customers.

I've had thoughts that maybe I'd try and cast new crankcases and use a 4 speed Sportster transmission to move the output sprocket to the side away from the clutch. It might even be possible to center the engine in the frame, what a novel idea! Guzzi, Aermacchi, Motobi and H-D all figured out how to do that sprocket position with the mainshaft/layshaft transmission, the British m/c industry should have done a better job of noticing what their competition was doing and not been so complacent in pushing out the same old crap, just because they could.

There I go again, adding yet another potential project for my waning golden years. :)

Years ago kevin cameron wrote a nice peice on basically just what you wrote only throwing in a home made 4V head and one piece crank. woving from Sportsman modified to the singles class
I think the blame for most of the character in a unit BSA sngle dates back to Triumphs designers with the terrier/Cub.
Bsa then Clews and CCM spend 20 odd years ironing them out.
I read a piece on the guy that was still making the CCM stuff a while back.
If you were do a new gearbox maybe have a look at an earlier Husaberg of Husky transmision they are very small and very strong and off side drive.
they were made in lots of guises 4 wide 4 close and 6 wide and 6 close.
That same problem is one of the flaws with trying to do something decent with a Villiers or greeves.
Other than using a bolt on BSA plunger box with an expensive 5 speed conversion or a custom nova box or an ubber expensive or a silly albion or a unobtanium Villers 6 speed you are out of luck.
Edit or i guess a kiwi a tt industries 6 speed http://www.ttindustries.com/bsa_gearbox.html never knew the did a 6 speed bsa box.

I know exactly what you're describing with the BSA...and don't want to go there thanks.

I suspect that banning myself from forums might help the situation as all the forums do is give you ideas....
329493
Remember the works road race version of the B50 that (i think Bob Heath) used to race, that was one of the best looking bikes of the period.

Michael Moore

24th March 2017, 17:15

Heath had some success with it too.

I've got an NEB 3 speed gearbox and PES/CCM-UK splined clutch and outrigger bearing plate for my B50. Mark Cook at PES has put a lot of effort into keeping CCMs (and other BSA unit singles) running. But while I expect that to be very nice it doesn't centralize the engine in the frame.

I know of one person who cut the gearbox off of a unit T100 to then use a Quaife 6 speed for VRR, and I think I may have seen mention of something similar done on a B50, though that may have been for a grasstrack bike with fewer gears.

I like the way a B50MX delivers the power, and it makes plenty for me. It could have been so much nicer if it hadn't been lumbered with so much legacy bad design. All they had to do was look around and say "let's do it they way all those people do."

But "not invented here" syndrome seems to afflict a lot of industries in a lot of countries.

husaberg

24th March 2017, 17:23

Michael Moore

24th March 2017, 18:20

Grumph

24th March 2017, 18:37

There's a story, hard to say how true, that one of the heads of a British manufacturer, when questioned about the need for the owners to do so much servicing, replied that they actually looked forward to decoking the valves at curbside once or twice a month, so there was no need to change. I suppose pushing the bike home 5 miles in the rain probably was character building and equally eagerly looked forward to by the purchasers.

When there was no alternative in personal transport, That view had some validity - but the small cars of the '60's put paid to that.

I was asked a while back how hard it was to decoke a pre unit BSA single...I answered "can't be too hard, thousands of Poms have done it on the side of the road'....

husaberg

24th March 2017, 18:56

There's a story, hard to say how true, that one of the heads of a British manufacturer, when questioned about the need for the owners to do so much servicing, replied that they actually looked forward to decoking the valves at curbside once or twice a month, so there was no need to change. I suppose pushing the bike home 5 miles in the rain probably was character building and equally eagerly looked forward to by the purchasers.

If i can find it, i will post the story of one of he US sales reps for Triumph visit to the meriden factory.
Its tragically funny.

ken seeber

27th March 2017, 22:04

SLIDER UPDATE:

Been a while, have so many excuses which can probably be interpreted that I have no excuse at all.

So, did a 3D printed coolant flow guide that hopefully will aid the cooling to the cylinder head insert. Dyno is getting closer, fixed up a seized bearing, repaired the circuit board and now waiting on a new encoder, the other having seized up.

Broken cylinder height actuating rod replaced and the arm has now been cabled. From the previous running, it was clear that the sliding cylinder had a tendency to descend. This is logical given that the piston ring friction will be higher on the power stroke.

Other variables could be crankcase pressure, coolant pressure, cylinder weight and possibly engine vibration characteristics. Either way, hopefully the simple cable will be all that is needed.

Actually, not sure if I should keep this going on Foundry or switch to Oddball.

329576329577329578

FastFred

28th March 2017, 06:25

.

Please keep it going here, its a great read, very interesting to follow and seems very bucket worthy.:woohoo:

tjbw

28th March 2017, 13:33

SLIDER UPDATE:

...

Actually, not sure if I should keep this going on Foundry or switch to Oddball.

I'd vote for oddball. Of course anyone can pop in there for updates.

WilDun

28th March 2017, 21:06

I'd vote for oddball. Of course anyone can pop in there for updates.

I'm slightly biased to Oddball of course for interesting stuff on all sorts of engines from way back and proposals for future engines, but Bucket Foundry (I feel) is best for foundry/casting, own design engines etc. ( that is projects actually in progress). ..... Where does that put your baby Ken? - A pretty confusing situation I'd say!
Having said that, I haven't been contributing a lot of my "beginners" foundry stuff just lately! :rolleyes:

Frits Overmars

29th March 2017, 00:22

I'm also slightly biased to Oddball, but the main thing is: keep it going!

F5 Dave

29th March 2017, 06:39

It'll be so successful you'll have to move into high production and post foundry techniques on how to keep up with demand of this now mainstream engine.

. . . and then oddball won't seem right anymore.

WilDun

29th March 2017, 12:48

[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1131037438. . . and then oddball won't seem right anymore.[/QUOTE]

Oh dear, can't let that happen! - Oddball needs to remain Oddball! - so Foundry it is Ken!

tjbw

29th March 2017, 12:57

Oh dear, can't let that happen! - Oddball needs to remain Oddball! - so Foundry it is Ken!

In that case foundry will end up like ESE ;)

WilDun

29th March 2017, 16:52

In that case foundry will end up like ESE ;)

I don't think so, ESE is more or less totally focused on projects associated with Bucket Racing (or similar types of projects) - granted, the odd excursion outside Bucket does happen but at the moment is staying pretty well on track.

Foundry type projects are quite a separate thing really but unfortunately not a lot of people actually do foundry work, however many are interested and Flettner has produced some astounding stuff there (and earlier on ESE).
There are quite a few (older) guys on this forum who are perhaps unable to actually carry on these sort of projects for various reasons, but if they are deeply interested in bikes but can't ride anymore and are still interested in workshop and foundry stuff associated with bikes, then they shouldn't be excluded just because they are not actively involved with Buckets and sometimes may find it hard work to keep up in ESE.

Same with Oddball, the topics can be more widespread without annoying anyone - it's a good place to be light hearted and discuss all sorts of engines and various other machines without getting in the way by trying to discuss irrelevant stuff on ESE and cluttering up that already extremely busy thread.

ken seeber

1st April 2017, 20:18

SLIDER UPDATE # (∞ - 1)
Dyno and engine all trued up and chain on. Fortunately being a bower bird, found a sliding adjustment mechanism that, after a bit of 4” angle grinding, will work well to actuate the cable to the cylinder height lever arm.
Next the cooling system, which I want to separate the engine from the dyno water as I want to use some corrosion inhibitor within the engine as the head insert I made had a bit of a whitish build-up.

329699

WilDun

2nd April 2017, 19:01

......... found a sliding adjustment mechanism that, after a bit of 4” angle grinding, will work well to actuate the cable to the cylinder height lever arm.
KEN,
Why was the thread unable to cope with the job of moving the cylinder? - surprised that all the force is downward on the cable! - but then not actually trying it is the main reason that "theorists" like me never actually get anything working! :rolleyes:

WilDun

7th April 2017, 10:11

Grumph

7th April 2017, 10:38

Looks like Ken's busy these days!

I just asked (over on the 'Oddball' thread - maybe here is more appropriate) if it would be possible to incorporate carbon fibre in alloy castings in order to make them stronger and lighter (by having reinforced thinner castings), ie instead of using resin for a matrix - resin, it would appear is not too happy with metal inserts.

It's been discussed - at least CF castings as non stressed parts have been discussed. I did a bit of asking around ChCh to find out where JB got his black CF reinforced "bog' that he cast up parts like the injector throttle bodies from. The people he dealt with are no longer in the business. Ex Britten staff know what it was in broad terms and where it came from - but not what resins or the proportions used.
I did propose a metal skeleton to take the loads with non structural CF filler in the gaps...

I'm told - and have been shown examples - that Honda at least are using a fiber reinforced matrix as cylinder liners. The composite liner appears to be cast in place and is around 1mm thick. Makes relining a tad difficult as that one has to be machined out first, after which a metal sleeve is the only option.

ken seeber

7th April 2017, 16:35

Looks like Ken's busy these days!

“Them’s fightin words” Willy !!! :ar15:

But you’re right though, we have been busy, mainly fab & design stuff which just seems to keep rolling in. Plus, I am the secretary of the largest kart club (Tiger Kart Club) in WA and one of the biggest in Oz. We have around 400 members (used to have nearly 500 til the sport was taken over by a load of wankers, but that’s another matter) and this weekend we have our really annual big iconic event called Carnival of Karts which has 202 nominated. This, other related people issues within the club and one incredibly sad one, again within the club, have taken a lot of time.

Casting wise, we are doing more lead splashing of the bobweights. I mentioned last time that there had been previous instances of bits coming loose. Well, now they want us to melt out the lead and then re-cast. The pic shows one where the section has flown out. Beside it are the other sections that we could easily prise out with a screwdriver.

329840

Will, as to the slider rod breaking, it wasn’t really a break under an axial load. See the pic of how it is now.

329842

In this case, the Ø6 stud is pressed into a drilled out rod end and welded via the cross holes. Previously it was screwed into the rod end with a lock nut. This would have been quite ok, but it broke at the thread just under the nut. I’m sure this was due to a bending load created by the weight of the actuating lever which was shaking at engine frequency due to some vibration motion of the engine in this area, creating a bending load on the rod with the weakest link being the thread. Hope so anyway.

So watch this space. Will keep it under Foundry where it was born. Cradle to grave stuff.

WilDun

7th April 2017, 17:27

Thanks Ken, look forward to it - Now where the hell is Flettner these days? - working hard or found another forum?

guyhockley

7th April 2017, 19:15

It's been discussed - at least CF castings as non stressed parts have been discussed. I did a bit of asking around ChCh to find out where JB got his black CF reinforced "bog' that he cast up parts like the injector throttle bodies from. The people he dealt with are no longer in the business. Ex Britten staff know what it was in broad terms and where it came from - but not what resins or the proportions used.
I did propose a metal skeleton to take the loads with non structural CF filler in the gaps..
The "forged composite" that Lamborghini are boasting about just sounds like the same idea, similar to what the Polimotor bloke uses. Sort of reinventing csm for carbon fibre. I've seen a story about experiments with it to make two stroke crankcases. You know the sort of thing - it would be a massive game changer for everybody...then it all goes quiet.
John Britten's Italian mate from CR&S, who's name I've forgotten (Robert/Roberto something?) said that John was planning a Supermono engine built using the same idea as his chassis and wheels, connecting hardpoints with "string" then filling in with sheet.

Grumph

7th April 2017, 19:40

The "forged composite" that Lamborghini are boasting about just sounds like the same idea, similar to what the Polimotor bloke uses. Sort of reinventing csm for carbon fibre. I've seen a story about experiments with it to make two stroke crankcases. You know the sort of thing - it would be a massive game changer for everybody...then it all goes quiet.
John Britten's Italian mate from CR&S, who's name I've forgotten (Robert/Roberto something?) said that John was planning a Supermono engine built using the same idea as his chassis and wheels, connecting hardpoints with "string" then filling in with sheet.

Roberto Crepaldi. Cathcart went public on the single before John wanted him to. AFAIK John never did cases in CF for the single, I think an alloy test crankcase only - no gearbox - was done and used for dyno running. That was the motor John did a CF rod for - unsucessfully. As tested, it had rectangular cam follower buckets - I think radial valves. Kelford Cams here made a fair amount of money redoing the cams weekly until John gave up on it.

I did a little machining of the cast CF throttle bodies. Feather light. Black sooty swarf which got everywhere and dulled HSS tips quickly.
I'd come in of a morning and the nights free labour would have left my lathe covered in black shit....

WilDun

7th April 2017, 21:51

Roberto Crepaldi. ........... John never did cases in CF for the single, I think an alloy test crankcase only - no gearbox - was done and used for dyno running. That was the motor John did a CF rod for - unsucessfully. ......... I did a little machining of the cast CF throttle bodies. Feather light. Black sooty swarf which got everywhere .......... my lathe covered in black shit....

Sounds much like when I was machining SG iron valves! - spent all night clearing out my nose (and lungs!) - didn't seem to hurt though!

BTW, Isn't it Crepaldi who still owns one of the Brittens?

guyhockley

7th April 2017, 22:08

I've seen pictures of a Britten single, backward leaning top end, reversed head and triple(?!) inlets. Pretty sure it had a gearbox, or a sprocket that wasn't on the crank, anyway.
I used to work on magnesium castings on a turret lathe, piece work, so needed to go as quickly as possible to make decent money. One of the two big problems with the job was the fire safety bloke who would insist on swarf being cleaned up almost before it came off the bloody tool tip!

Frits Overmars

7th April 2017, 22:41

I did a little machining of the cast CF throttle bodies. Feather light. Black sooty swarf which got everywhere and dulled HSS tips quickly. I'd come in of a morning and the nights free labour would have left my lathe covered in black shit....I think the stuff should be treated like asbestos. John Britten might agree....

guyhockley

7th April 2017, 22:44

These are on my hard drive - obvious where one came from, no idea about the other two, looks almost like a museum exhibit?

husaberg

7th April 2017, 22:53

These are on my hard drive - obvious where one came from, no idea about the other two, looks almost like a museum exhibit?

the others are from here
http://www.bikeme.tv/index.php/visiting-the-britten-1000/

Grumph

8th April 2017, 07:39

These are on my hard drive - obvious where one came from, no idea about the other two, looks almost like a museum exhibit?

I never visited the "museum" while it existed. The quakes put paid to the building it was in and while I know there was a "mission" sent in to recover what they could, I don't know how much they could get out. Two bikes certainly as they've been seen since. A couple of years back at the annual BEARS meeting here there was a gathering of as many as possible would come to NZ. Don't recall seeing the single engine there so it may not now exist.

F5 Dave

8th April 2017, 07:50

Let's just say it was lost along with the 54.5hp 125 2stroke single.

guyhockley

8th April 2017, 10:37

So was the Supermono a 5 (or 6?!) valver?

Grumph

8th April 2017, 11:34

So was the Supermono a 5 (or 6?!) valver?

Pretty sure it was six. The better Britten book quotes it as six. Cathcart quoted John as saying six.

AFAIK there was one set of 5 valve heads made for the 1100 version of the twin. John showed one of them at a club social night in ChCh.
It was very nice as you'd expect, but by that time I already knew what the advance curve for the FZR's looked like - and talking to John it was apparent that he didn't...When the 1100 blew I think it wrote off one head and it didn't make enough power to be worth persevering so the good head became a display item.

husaberg

8th April 2017, 13:06

Grumph

8th April 2017, 14:33

It should be noted that when the "Britten" heads were made they were designed and the inlet and exhaust port shape all the rest was fitted in arround these predetermined locations.
Jerry Branch a noted American gas flow expert was consulted with on a number of occasions.

Yes, he was - but he was the main voice pushing for 5 valves.

The 4V head development was done by Hans Weekers in Auckland who had been introduced to John by Mike Sinclair. I believe Mike had met him in Holland.

Frits may have known him as he'd worked for Yamaha Motor Europe before emigrating to NZ.

husaberg

8th April 2017, 15:50

Yes, he was - but he was the main voice pushing for 5 valves.

The 4V head development was done by Hans Weekers in Auckland who had been introduced to John by Mike Sinclair. I believe Mike had met him in Holland.

Frits may have known him as he'd worked for Yamaha Motor Europe before emigrating to NZ.
I was just meaning he 4 valvers.
From memory he flowed the head design with a port model, most likely made of Bondo (ie bog) and valves until he got the desired result.
Then progressed to the actual Head patterns.
They actually got very good results on the flow bench with the 5 valver ,but airflow was only part of the equation As you know it needs to be able to be burnt efficiently and in a timely manner as well.
The patterns for the cases (at least) were made with plywood sheets with each sheet template taken off cross sections of the engine drawings.
I always admired the bolt on nature of the ancillaries on the Britten. They never made anything they never really needed to.

F5 Dave

8th April 2017, 18:46

So did Hans work for McIntosh? Think I sold him a YZF muffler.

Grumph

8th April 2017, 19:37

I always admired the bolt on nature of the ancillaries on the Britten. They never made anything they never really needed to.

If you talk to the guys who did the work, they never got the opportunity to make it how they needed to...
John could never give a firm direction as to how something was to be done and in the early stages of design would not allow extra bosses etc for mounting ancillaries. Rob Selby told me he hated how the alternator mounting finished up. But there had been no provision made for it on the patterns so how it finished up was all he could do.
I walked in one day and was immediately asked where I'd put a starter motor - I assume it was when Indian were sniffing around. I pointed out a couple of options and we talked geared drives and decompressors. It was all feasible using available tech - but I was told the patterns couldn't be altered and John wouldn't like the locations I'd suggested. AFAIK no engine with a starter was built. I do know that others were asked too though.

Grumph

8th April 2017, 19:42

So did Hans work for McIntosh? Think I sold him a YZF muffler.

Don't know. I've never heard of him here other than in connection with the Britten.

husaberg

8th April 2017, 20:44

If you talk to the guys who did the work, they never got the opportunity to make it how they needed to...
John could never give a firm direction as to how something was to be done and in the early stages of design would not allow extra bosses etc for mounting ancillaries. Rob Selby told me he hated how the alternator mounting finished up. But there had been no provision made for it on the patterns so how it finished up was all he could do.
I walked in one day and was immediately asked where I'd put a starter motor - I assume it was when Indian were sniffing around. I pointed out a couple of options and we talked geared drives and decompressors. It was all feasible using available tech - but I was told the patterns couldn't be altered and John wouldn't like the locations I'd suggested. AFAIK no engine with a starter was built. I do know that others were asked too though.

i was meaning the more water pump and the gearbox valves pistons sleeves springs clutch rods etc, but they did eventually i think do their own water pump origionally a TS/RM250- or something.
Pretty sure the gearbox changed from a GSX1100 or something else later on as well. the cluch was changed to a Kawaski ZXR at some stage as well.
Speaking of Britten people I remember going to Bob Brooklands place when i was a nipper. I think my father was selling him his old Greeves twin back or something.
These days it would have an airstarter.......
Edit didn't the first WP incarnation still have the chainsaw magneto only?

Grumph

9th April 2017, 07:38

i was meaning the more water pump and the gearbox valves pistons sleeves springs clutch rods etc, but they did eventually i think do their own water pump origionally a TS/RM250- or something.
Pretty sure the gearbox changed from a GSX1100 or something else later on as well. the cluch was changed to a Kawaski ZXR at some stage as well.
Speaking of Britten people I remember going to Bob Brooklands place when i was a nipper. I think my father was selling him his old Greeves twin back or something.
These days it would have an airstarter.......
Edit didn't the first WP incarnation still have the chainsaw magneto only?

Yes, and as a speedway engine, that was all it needed.
My first job was to assemble a GSX1100 box from a carton of brand new still wrapped parts. Told John, back in half an hour, down to the Public Library and photocopied the relevant section from a Haynes manual. Came back and showed it to John - There's the gearbox section of the Britten manual, LOL.
They'd had gearbox problems due to the previous boxes all being secondhand. No one knew how to prep them properly as all the in house experience then was with Ducatis. I pointed John at Mike Jones Gears and stripped out the damaged gear sets to be done. Poor Mike never got paid for all the work he did - but he's got an impressive collection of Britten posters...
Second version of his own motor used the GSXR1100 5 speed box. They asked me if they could use the 6 speed as I'd got one to hold up behind the Budget Spares alky 1100 F1 bike. I told them not to bother, as with the 6 speed, Kirby had worn out his left boot on Wanganui changing gear unnecessarily.
They had more than enough torque that 6 speeds were not necessary - and the box was marginal for capacity too.
The big leap forward was the back torque limiter clutch. Loren Poole found out who made them and sourced something that would fit.

Arifidyan

10th April 2017, 16:14

husaberg

10th April 2017, 19:37

Hi all.. :)

Btw, now Iam working on a project, 2stroke engine - 2 cylinder - 800cc.

https://scontent-sin6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17626509_801083390038792_1854887763573956664_n.jpg ?oh=2434e2c4f261f2726a3a367cec0ad941&oe=594EE29D

Does anyone have any port layout/map of 800cc engines?
such as, MAICO 440, rotax800, artic cat800, etc?

Big Thankssss. :)
2 seconds on Google
http://seadoomanuals.net/download/pdf/racing/1998/1998-seadoo-racing-book.PDF
http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1099506-cylinder-port-templates/

WilDun

11th April 2017, 09:23

I had hoped to get my home foundry in action this summer but events within the family have scuppered that for the time being and I have sold off stuff like my little lathes and various other bits and pieces etc. I'm now busy putting the rest of the gear (junk as the family calls it) from my garage into storage, hopefully not for too long - hopefully not forever!

I see John Clarke (Fred Dagg) has passed away in Australia at too young an age. He was a well liked and very funny guy ie back here in the sixties and early seventies before he left for Australia.
I posted an early photo of someone who most probably was him back somewhere in this thread wearing his favourite attire. ( It seemed appropriate to the subject at the time!).

You'll never be forgotten John Clarke (AKA Fred Dagg) - you made us all laugh,

Arifidyan

11th April 2017, 13:12

2 seconds on Google
http://seadoomanuals.net/download/pdf/racing/1998/1998-seadoo-racing-book.PDF
http://www.dootalk.com/forums/topic/1099506-cylinder-port-templates/

Woww, thankss a lot.. :D

Flettner

14th April 2017, 19:55

US Chrome, good buggers, both 7075 rods have been hard chromed at minimal cost. Because they are keen to help out with the projects (and I guess ultimately would like to do more paid chroming for me in the future).
But odd that they will not send the components back to NZ, they can only sent within the US? No problem I'm getting the parts sent to the guy that makes the Gyro rotor blades for me in Florida, so they will be sent out to NZ in due course in a box of rotors, hopefully shortly. This will have to be sorted in the future if I'm going to get more done. Anyone needing 7075 parts hard chroming?

F5 Dave

14th April 2017, 21:48

They chromed my 50 bore on steel sleeve, on internet advice from Eric Gore. Good chap. Lasted 10 years at 13,000 rpm.

Flettner

17th April 2017, 16:11

husaberg

17th April 2017, 16:53

finally finished the sleeve engine off well enough to have a fang up and down the road. The good news is it didn't seize, the not so good news it's not exactly lightening. Although it will pull into a power band of sorts. I think the timing is too retarded perhaps? I'm estimating over 13000 rpm though, so the next job is to pull it down and see if it's all well inside. My ears are still ringing.

What pipes did you use?
okay goes back and looks they do thave a restristor in the end cone Neil?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDjG4bNCLWw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmXFkbD3s5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6keqpL3rmwk