The Bucket Foundry

[WilDun]

So, I stopped googling for vintage type items..........


This appears to be the cheap, modern, lightweight, Chinese version of the burner.........

Diesel, Kerosene, Oil?? plenty of options.

Cheers, Daryl

Diesel, kerosene. waste oil maybe (or a mixture of them) - more of a hassle than gas though! - Granted, they are probably cheaper than gas of course .... well, kero isn't that cheap I guess. - but gas is very convenient and much cleaner too! Guess it all depends on how much you use it! ........ But gas won't annoy any neighbours. - I am a country boy at heart but our untidy habits might irritate even the best townie neighbours!

[ken seeber]

Diesel, kerosene. waste oil maybe (or a mixture of them) - more of a hassle than gas though! - Granted, they are probably cheaper than gas of course .... well, kero isn't that cheap I guess. - but gas is very convenient and much cleaner too! Guess it all depends on how much you use it! ........ But gas won't annoy any neighbours. - I am a country boy at heart but our untidy habits might irritate even the best townie neighbours!

Yeah, gotta agree with Wil here. The few times I'll be cranking up my toy foundry, the convenience of LPG eliminates any thought of mucking around with some potentially cheaper fuel. Unless, of course, Daryl you are going into some high production of some trick multi multi port aftermarket Metralla barrels.
Must point out that I had a Montesa Impala 250 many years ago, and this didn't need any such upgrades...:msn-wink:

[Pursang]

Thank-you Wil & Ken, that is Really Great Advice.

Unfortunately, you are trying to counter a deplorable life-time of deliberately selecting the "road less traveled".
At least my accepting that there could possibly be a problem is the step before the first step to recovery.

343006

Cheers, Daryl

[Pursang]

..... trick multi multi port aftermarket Metralla barrels.
Must point out that I had a Montesa Impala 250 many years ago, and this didn't need any such upgrades...:msn-wink:

What? Like this one?
343009343010

No Way...The Metralla will be fine. It is not going to turn into a TSS.
(repeating to self: Not a TSS, Not a TSS!!)

The multi port round barrel could, however, make the Mk4 Pursang into a pre70 class MX & Dirt Track weapon!!!
Some more power and a Way broader powerband.

Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

What? Like this one?

No Way...The Metralla will be fine. It is not going to turn into a TSS.

Cheers, Daryl.

Darryl - Ken
Good to see someone else (besides Neil) having a go at casting as well - unfortunately my situation is becoming more dire by the day (most probably will be moving soon), so I guess I'll now have to be counted out - unfortunately) - but I will always live in hope! - Anybody else in NZ likely to have a go?? - that might also include the instigator of this thread!

(BTY Darryl, I have a son who now lives in Brisbane).

[WilDun]

Darryl - I sent a PM to you yesterday and am not sure whether it got to you or not ( just not showing in my "sent mail")! not sure what happened - anyway, no worries - we'll wait and see.

Anyway the oil burner you have seems to be a heavy duty diesel/kero blowlamp type and I think they may have have been used in schools and technical colleges etc at one stage - pity you never see that stuff anymore - I could of course be wrong!

These days they are only interested in collecting (also buying) as many degrees as possible many of which will never be used! - when they could be learning something which would be useful and enjoyable, one example being foundry work!

[Pursang]

Darryl - I sent a PM to you yesterday and am not sure whether it got to you or not ( just not showing in my "sent mail")! not sure what happened - anyway, no worries - we'll wait and see.

Anyway the oil burner you have seems to be a heavy duty diesel/kero blowlamp type and I think they may have have been used in schools and technical colleges etc at one stage - pity you never see that stuff anymore - these days they are only interested in collecting as many degrees as possible many of which will never be used! - when we could be learning something which would be useful and enjoyable!

Hi Will. Yes the mail arrived, thank you. Just a bit slow to respond, I was working last night.

Thanks for the help with ID'ing the burner. I will be making the pressurised fuel tank this weekend and attempting to fire it up.
I guess that Kero spray/vapour will ignite pretty easily. (Otherwise, there would be a lot of jet planes sitting around on tarmacs, Eh?)

Check here for progress.... or Incident Reports.

Cheers, Daryl.

[lodgernz]

those yoshi carbs have those holey jet needles that are meant to atomise the fuel better that no one seems to have copied.
According to them

there is a Chinese version i are tempted to just buy to have a look at.

The Chinese version is made by Maikuni (NOT Mikuni) and although having "YD24" or "YD30" etc stamped on the side, they are not Yoshimura copies.
Internally they are just another Keihin copy, though well executed.
I bought one for its ability to operate at 45º. Made a nice alloy elliptical bellmouth to replace the plastic foul-stroke strumpet, and added a power jet to it.
Haven't put it on a bike yet.
Soon....

[husaberg]

The Chinese version is made by Maikuni (NOT Mikuni) and although having "YD24" or "YD30" etc stamped on the side, they are not Yoshimura copies.
Internally they are just another Keihin copy, though well executed.
I bought one for its ability to operate at 45º. Made a nice alloy elliptical bellmouth to replace the plastic foul-stroke strumpet, and added a power jet to it.
Haven't put it on a bike yet.
Soon....

Pics pleace i couldnt find it last time i looked. as i ws going to buy one. but i lost where i had the link
AFAIK the Yoshi carbs are a PWK copy with a funny needle ? with an 45 kink. well thats what thy look like.

okay i think i found it
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32924167911.html

https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32859996352.html

[husaberg]

just for dave those daigo carbs as well
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32956247581.html

[F5 Dave]

The Chinese version is made by Maikuni (NOT Mikuni) and although having "YD24" or "YD30" etc stamped on the side, they are not Yoshimura copies.
Internally they are just another Keihin copy, though well executed.
I bought one for its ability to operate at 45º. Made a nice alloy elliptical bellmouth to replace the plastic foul-stroke strumpet, and added a power jet to it.
Haven't put it on a bike yet.
Soon....

Sweet we'll chuck on the . . . Oh, that's right. Never mind.

[ken seeber]

Other than pistons, not too much metal splashing going on at present. In the hope of change, I made up a simple 3D printed mould to allow me to make pouring cups. The idea that I will stick these on top of a larger mould of sand or plaster ceramic mix. Smoothed up the inside of the mould with spray putty and sanding, didn’t come out too bad really.

343171343172

Prior to that I went to a mineral sand supply company and bought some foundry sand in various grades.

Then using Coolset binder, a Foseco / Vesuvius product which is basically sodium silicate, I made a sample of each grade. Quite a difference in the surface, as is understandable.
Years ago we tried Coolset and I was a bit disappointed, but in hindsight we used too little of the Coolset, resulting in a very weak bond of very limited shelf life. So, simply went from the original 2% up to around 4%. As Fletto pointed out, the issues might be gas generation and, as one goes finer in the sand, less passage for the gases to escape.

Still, it’s bloody convenient: simple plastic or wood moulds/pattern/coreboxes and quick setting afer the CO2, half a minute or so.

[husaberg]

Other than pistons, not too much metal splashing going on at present. In the hope of change, I made up a simple 3D printed mould to allow me to make pouring cups. The idea that I will stick these on top of a larger mould of sand or plaster ceramic mix. Smoothed up the inside of the mould with spray putty and sanding, didn’t come out too bad really.

343171343172

Prior to that I went to a mineral sand supply company and bought some foundry sand in various grades.

Then using Coolset binder, a Foseco / Vesuvius product which is basically sodium silicate, I made a sample of each grade. Quite a difference in the surface, as is understandable.
Years ago we tried Coolset and I was a bit disappointed, but in hindsight we used too little of the Coolset, resulting in a very weak bond of very limited shelf life. So, simply went from the original 2% up to around 4%. As Fletto pointed out, the issues might be gas generation and, as one goes finer in the sand, less passage for the gases to escape.

Still, it’s bloody convenient: simple plastic or wood moulds/pattern/coreboxes and quick setting afer the CO2, half a minute or so.

limestone is about $30 a tonne here.
Gravel about $22.

Looks nce.

[Michael Moore]

Ken, you might instead consider a pouring basin that gives a smooth flow from a reservoir into the sprue to reduce oxide entrainment

http://answer2questn.blogspot.com/2014/06/velocity-of-metal-flow-in-sprue-metal.html

Campbell and others discuss those and their benefits, for example page 17 of this:

http://user.engineering.uiowa.edu/~becker/documents.dir/SFSA/2016-4.8%20Air%20Entrainment.pdf

cheers,
Michael

[OopsClunkThud]

here's the pouring basin I made for the manifolds. Just rammed them up with green sand, happy to share the stl if anyone wants it.

343177

[WilDun]

Interesting stuff from all you guys,- never actually noticed that basin idea before, (would you believe?).
but it does look good!

( OPT? ) -
I would be interested in your Stl if its available!

KEN,
Spray putty? where do you get that? sounds interesting!
(Guess it probably wouldn't be Bunnings this time!)

[OopsClunkThud]

zipped the stl of the pouring basin, think this should work...

[WilDun]

zipped the stl of the pouring basin, think this should work...

Thanks OCT ........ Dunno your name, but thanks anyway - I'll scale it to suit my purposes ......... my printer is badly clogged at the moment, but when I get it unclogged .....:niceone:

[husaberg]

Thanks OCT ........ Dunno your name, but thanks anyway - I'll scale it to suit my purposes ......... my printer is badly clogged at the moment, but when I get it unclogged .....:niceone:

Patrick Owens
its on the bottom of his post

[OopsClunkThud]

Patrick Owens
its on the bottom of his post

it is now, I had neglected to add any information up till it was pointed out... oops

[husaberg]

it is now, I had neglected to add any information up till it was pointed out... oops

It was on your profile as well.

[Flettner]

one step forward, many back.
Seems the new foundry is a dud so far, pouring trolley is hard to operate precisely, often spilling lots of alloy on the foor, completely missing the in gate. Temp measuring tool is slow and ineffective ( perhaps it needs pre heating?) many disasters so far. Who would have thought Heath and Roberson knew what they were doing with the old one.

[husaberg]

one step forward, many back.
Seems the new foundry is a dud so far, pouring trolley is hard to operate precisely, often spilling lots of alloy on the foor, completely missing the in gate. Temp measuring tool is slow and ineffective ( perhaps it needs pre heating?) many disasters so far. Who would have thought Heath and Roberson knew what they were doing with the old one.

Do you any some 4mm (16swg) LT wire?

[speedpro]

Do you any some 4mm (16swg) LT wire?

This is Neil we're talking about

[husaberg]

This is Neil we're talking about

I got that. i am pretty sure Flet will get it also.
Although i doubt the Aussies poms or the yanks will be familar with the 4mm 16swg LT galvanized mythical properties.
Flet will figure it out plowing his own path

In real life I am actually down to my last 20 meters or so.
2.5 HT 12 SWG is pratically useless for anything other than fencing or emergency welding wire after the galv is burnt off.:psst:

[Flettner]

Ive been practising pouring sand, so as to get the crucible in the right rotational index.
Seems the temp probe does need pre heating. And I need a large clock on the wall to get an after final melt time, to get an approx temp. I'll have another hack at it this weekend perhaps.

[ken seeber]

Well, thanks to OCT ( alias Patrick….goodonya Hooser), last night I printed out a pouring basin and today gave it a quick clean-up and made a sand basin, using CO2. Came out pretty well. Thanks Patrick.

Yeah I know it looks small cos it is small. When I put the full size .stl model into Cura, it appeared to be very large. So I just halved it dimensionally. Might be able to use for some of the smaller things I am considering.

343189 343190


Will. The spray putty is sold in many auto shops, your local Supercheap has it.

343188

Michael, interesting info on the links you sent. Good reminders on the Bernoulli effects in terms of entraining air, even applicable to permanent moulds when the down sprue is on the part line, where there is always some small gap. This highlights a bit of an unknown to me in that what size of down sprue is appropriate to a given volume of casting. I know there are lots of variable to be considered, but if anyone knew of any conservative rule of thumb I’d be interested.

[Michael Moore]

Ken, a copy of Campbell's Complete Casting Handbook goes into detail on calculating the velocities needed and the gate/runner sizes. Jeff figured all of that out for the feed system of the F37. It is well worth having a copy of the (usually not inexpensive) book as it is both an informative and he has a nice writing style that is easy to read (and he slips in a bit of dry humor about the foundry industry now and then).

cheers,
Michael

[WilDun]

Well, thanks to OCT ( alias Patrick….goodonya Hooser), last night I printed out a pouring basin and today gave it a quick clean-up and made a sand basin, using CO2. Came out pretty well. Thanks Patrick.

Yeah I know it looks small cos it is small. When I put the full size .stl model into Cura, it appeared to be very large. So I just halved it dimensionally. Might be able to use for some of the smaller things I am considering.

Will. The spray putty is sold in many auto shops, your local Supercheap has it.

Michael, interesting info on the links you sent. d.

Thanks Patrick,
I put it into Cura. - I got my little printer unclogged today - it can only handle your design at 70% but that's perfectly adequate for me!

Ken, I was going to go to Supercheap Autos today and try and find that putty stuff, but it was such lousy weather, I stayed home! (tomorrow maybe!) and as luck would have it, Bunnings is right next door -(except for the weather, this place is paradise!) :yes:

[Flettner]

Success at last. Two moulds, two castings. Temp probe had an exposed wire touching the stainless steel body, mistake in manufacture but all fixed now. Onwards and upwards😆,

[Flettner]

Mmmmm........

[husaberg]

Mmmmm........

I was watching a guy making a diy way to refine and re-distill plasic into a Diesel equivalent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTtAElSO7zE
343236
He makes a decent stove also for a pom living in NZ

[Flettner]

Yeah, but my bike doesn't run on diesel.

[speedpro]

I saw they sell E85 at Hampton Downs at the Gull outlet

[husaberg]

Yeah, but my bike doesn't run on diesel.

https://nzic.org.nz/app/uploads/2017/10/3H.pdf

From what i remember they use some form of semipermeable membrane to remove the protein first.
The Protein which is called Whey Preotein concentrate or WPC one of its early uses was as an egg replacement fo pumping hams to make them plump and glossy. It was also in demand for body builders.
The Whey used to be spread of pastures o fed to pigs cattle.
Pretty sure Gull gets some if not most of its alcohol from dairy as do most of the spirit producers in NZ.



I saw they sell E85 at Hampton Downs at the Gull outlet
What sort of price is the e85?

[Flettner]

Gull E85 $2,40 per L.
When I used to buy straight ethanol by the 200L drum, it was over $3,00 per L.
If I bought it by the tanker load it would have been somewhat cheaper.
I have heard that Gull are looking at abandoning E85 alltogether soon. So I'll need to get into making it myself, or get a tanker😆.
When bucket racing embraces E85, Im in.

[husaberg]

Gull E85 $2,40 per L.
When I used to buy straight ethanol by the 200L drum, it was over $3,00 per L.
If I bought it by the tanker load it would have been somewhat cheaper.
I have heard that Gull are looking at abandoning E85 alltogether soon. So I'll need to get into making it myself, or get a tanker��.
When bucket racing embraces E85, Im in.

Whats meths about 5$ a liter likely cheaper in bulk?

bunnings $4.7/ltr 1L
https://www.bunnings.co.nz/diggers-1l-violet-methylated-spirits_p00237378
4.49?l 4L
https://www.bunnings.co.nz/diggers-4l-violet-methylated-spirits_p00237385

343237

[Frits Overmars]

Gull E85 $2,40 per L. When I used to buy straight ethanol by the 200L drum, it was over $3,00 per L. When bucket racing embraces E85, Im in.NZ$ 2,40 is 1,39 Euro, at that is exactly today's price of regular petrol at the cheapest filling stations over here in Germany. But when we hop over the CZech border, there's an E85 filling station across the street from our test track, where they sell E85 for 0,85 €; that's 1,48 NZ$.
We usually fill a couple of 50L drums (We'd need an exemption to transport those in a passenger car or a delivery van, but hey..)
I can highly recommend allowing E85 for every form of racing. It costs about one tenth of so-called racing fuel, it gives more power and much better internal engine cooling and it's much more friendly to the environment. And to the wallet: we pay way less at the station and our pistons look like new after a full season of racing.

[Frits Overmars]

Neels 'EngMod2T' van Niekerk just sent me this useful link about E85: https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/<wbr>forums/showthread.php/143620-<wbr>EngMod2T-Q-amp-A/page4 (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/143620-EngMod2T-Q-amp-A/page4)

Where does the E85 power come from? From internal cooling, yes. But also because with the amount of air that the engine inhales, you can burn much more E85 than regular petrol.
I worked it out some time ago for my German mates and I have been planning to produce an English translation, but other things keep getting in the way, so here it is in its original form. Let's see how Google Translator will mutilate it.

EDIT: the forum software refused to accept the ODT-file, so now I'll try to upload the PDF-file. You should be able to feed that to Google Translator as well.
343256

[Pursang]

I can highly recommend allowing E85 for every form of racing. It costs about one tenth of so-called racing fuel, it gives more power and much better internal engine cooling and it's much more friendly to the environment. And to the wallet: we pay way less at the station and our pistons look like new after a full season of racing.

Thanks for the info Frits, I have been thinking of putting much of my 'stable' onto E85.

One question, I haven't found a clear answer to anywhere online.

We will somewhere between Methanol & Gasoline for carby set-up.

For a base-line to start tuning from, should I use Methanol (Skinny) needles and regular sized needle jets...Or regular needles and large Needle jets.

Does the E85 require additional spark advance with normal compression ratios?
Does the petrol component cause issues with higher compression ratios?

Cheers, Daryl.

[lodgernz]

NZ$ 2,40 is 1,39 Euro, at that is exactly today's price of regular petrol at the cheapest filling stations over here in Germany. But when we hop over the CZech border, there's an E85 filling station across the street from our test track, where they sell E85 for 0,85 €; that's 0,49 NZ$.
.

Actually NZD1.48. Sorry Frits. I'm a bit OCD...

[lodgernz]

Frits, here is your E85 pdf roughly translated.
I've made a couple of changes (eg spark plug instead of candle) but I'm completely stumped by "Rennzweitakter".
I can send you the Word version if you want to make more updates.

[TZ350]

.
E85

It would pay to ask Flettner about E85 as he has run it in his air cooled Kawasaki EFI 350 Big Horn.

From memory the issue is. The bike can be running fine until you put some load on it and with over 75degC head/cylinder temperature you need to enrich E85 to stay away from the dreaded detonation.

He has extensive experience with E85 in air cooled engines.

[diesel pig]

"Rennzweitakter".

I think it is one of those german compound words they love so much. I think this either means Two stroke motorcycle or racing two stroke

[husaberg]

I think it is one of those german compound words they love so much. I think this either means Two stroke motorcycle or racing two stroke

I think its racing two stroke also
i base this on Rennsport being the racing Beemer.
Zweitaktmotor being a two stroke engne

If the Inuits have 100 words for snow the gemans likely have 100 words for sausage.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, here is your E85 pdf roughly translated.
I've made a couple of changes (eg spark plug instead of candle) but I'm completely stumped by "Rennzweitakter".
I can send you the Word version if you want to make more updates.Thank you for a great job Lodgernz. No need to send the Word version; the PDF will do fine :niceone:
(Rennzweitakter = racing two-stroke. Renn=run , zwei=two , zweitakt=two-stroke. Who said German is difficult? Never mind, German is difficult. They even say so themselves).

[Frits Overmars]

For a base-line to start tuning from, should I use Methanol (Skinny) needles and regular sized needle jets...Or regular needles and large Needle jets. Does the E85 require additional spark advance with normal compression ratios? Does the petrol component cause issues with higher compression ratios?I'd go with regular needles Daryl. I think you will find the answers to your other questions in the English version of the PDF that Lodgernz posted above.

[Frits Overmars]

Actually NZD1.48. Sorry Frits. I'm a bit OCD...Don't know what OCD is, but in any case you're right; thanks for pointing it out. I corrected it now.

[Vannik]

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD) the "nice way of saying somebody is anal about detail;)

[Pursang]

I'd go with regular needles Daryl. I think you will find the answers to your other questions in the English version of the PDF that Lodgernz posted above.

Thank-you Frits & Lodgernz.
(OCD is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder 123Tap..123Tap..123Tap..etc.)

Concise, Sensible Information at last.:clap: There is So Much B.S. to sort through, when you venture too far out into the Googleverse!

E85, here I come!

Cheers, Daryl.

[Flettner]

Daryl, l had no sucess with a carburetor on E85, not saying it can't be done but I couldn't make it work. Also my Lake injector was less than successful.
For me the answer came with the ability to change over all fueling with the LINK ecu. Up master fuel with head temp. E85 seems to need more fuel as the engine gets hotter, the fuel when vaporized properly (heat) releases extra oxygen, needing more fuel, or so I understand.

Also reeds do not like E85, unless steel I guess. Even carbon V force tell me their reeds will soften with ethanol. Hence one more reason to use steel rotary valve.

[TZ350]

343288 PWM Power Jet


343287 Std Power Jet

Maybe some sort of power jet that is active when the engine is hot.

343290 343289 these can be NO normally open or NC normally closed.

It might be possible to do it with a solenoid and simple NO thermal switch that closes when the motor is hot and turns the power jet on for extra fuel.

On one of the Team ESE bikes we have been using one of these thermal switch's (40 deg) to turn on the electric water pump as needed.

For drag racing I would think EFI with Alpha-N mapping would be quite workable.

[lodgernz]

OK. Back to foundry matters:
What is the stuff that bursts into flame when one sprinkles it on the top of the sprue or riser after pouring alloy?
And where can one buy it in NZ?

[husaberg]

OK. Back to foundry matters:
What is the stuff that bursts into flame when one sprinkles it on the top of the sprue or riser after pouring alloy?
And where can one buy it in NZ?

Magnesium powder No idea

[ken seeber]

There's a joint in Oz that appears to cater for the small time foundry man. He might be able to help, although he doesn't show it in his products. I suspect transport safety might be an issue.

https://www.greensand.com.au/

[husaberg]

Thank-you Frits & Lodgernz.
(OCD is Obsessive Compulsive Disorder 123Tap..123Tap..123Tap..etc.)

Concise, Sensible Information at last.:clap: There is So Much B.S. to sort through, when you venture too far out into the Googleverse!

E85, here I come!

Cheers, Daryl.

Grumph post by husaberg

Tell the bultaco aussie that needle profile isn't that important on meth - or ethanol - as long as the needle jet is big enough. I usually start off around 3.0mm. Use the hottest plug you can get away with. We'd been using NGK 12's, tried 10's on a dyno run and picked up power everywhere.
If he's using round slide carbs he may have to go to a richer cutaway too.
BIG float needles required...
(he's meaning the float needle valve and seat)




For a little as a dollar a day Grumph could have an internet that was capable of delivering first world Pron as well as working most days with a Y in them.

[Flettner]

OK. Back to foundry matters:
What is the stuff that bursts into flame when one sprinkles it on the top of the sprue or riser after pouring alloy?
And where can one buy it in NZ?

You doing some casting? What?
cant remember whats its called, I got a bucket of it here, name has long gone off the side. Metcast sell it in Auckland, I may need some more also soon.

[lodgernz]

You doing some casting? What?
cant remember whats its called, I got a bucket of it here, name has long gone off the side. Metcast sell it in Auckland, I may need some more also soon.

Thanks for that Neil, I'll give them a call.
Yes, trying to cast an exhaust port insert to extend the duct, then another casting of a jacket to surround and water-cool said extension.
All attempts so far have been very poor, with much pitting on the surface, and unacceptable shrinkage.
I'm using the lost wax method, and the shrinkage of the wax is the main problem.
It has to be cast, as there's no way to machine a billet to exactly match the weird contours of the port, which I need to ensure the inner part of the insert makes good contact wth the existing water-cooled surface.
With the latest attempt, I've dipped the wax mold in more wax to add some bulk to counteract the shrinkage. Probably lost some contour definition in the process.
Nothing is easy...

[Flettner]

bees wax, much less shrinkage.

[ken seeber]

bees wax, much less shrinkage.

Of course, that'd be wax from your exclusive Kiwi Manuka honey bees....

[F5 Dave]

Mate. I hear it's the same as the aussie stuff. Storm in a Teacup. With coperate Egos attached.
Sorry about that.

[lodgernz]

bees wax, much less shrinkage.

Thanks Neil. Ordered some today.

[Pursang]

Mate. I hear it's the same as the aussie stuff. Storm in a Teacup.

Storm in a Tea tree!..;)

Sorry about that!

Quick Update: Kero/Oil burner has been fired up a few times with dramatic & inconsistent results.:shit: (Sorry, no Video)

The fuel needle valve had been re-tapered in the past by someone with a grinder!!!

Removed it and turned it in the lathe, hoping for better results now.
Still not too sure on the required supply pressure (somewhere, I guess, between 7 & 30 psi.??)

Cheers, Daryl

[ken seeber]

RISERING TO THE OCCASION:

A friend who mucks around with pumps and other hydraulic/fluidic related gizmos had the need for some design of a mixing chamber and wondered if we could machine up a part for him. As it was a relatively simple job and he was in no real hurry, I volunteered to try casting it for him. Silly mistake.
So, printed up a pattern and cleaned it up and primer surfaced it. The easy part. Basic casting size is 20 thick and Ø110. A bit chunky really.

343346

Trial 1. Used classic runner gating system designed using Foseco guidelines (thanks MM) with 5 risers. Filled easily, but huge shrinkage around the central boss.

343347343348343349343350343351


Call this a FAIL.

To be continued...….

[ken seeber]

RISERING TO THE OCCASION:

Forgot to say that I am using CO2 for the sands. Using Superfine sand for the facing sand and coarse Foundry sand for the backing. Must say the CO2 process is really convenient.

Trial 2. Moulded it upside down, with a huge sprue/riser in the middle. That should do it. Nope, Similar shrinkage, not as bad though.

343370343371343372343373


Call this a FAIL

To be continued.

[Flettner]

how a feeder should work, should be the last metal to freeze off so as to feed the shrikage occuring in the mold. Technically the 'freeze' line should start at the bottom and finally finish freezing over at the top of the riser. Thermal sleeves help for this and the magnesium powder that is sprinkled on the the riser as the metal is still molten. This fires up to ensure the riser solidifies last. When all is finished and you are breaking open the mold you should see a large depression under the remains of the magnesium powder, the result of the sum total of all the shrinkage in the whole casting. If you see this you know you have a sound casting. If you don't, you will find shinkage voids within the casting as its machined. The shrinkage is there wether you want it or not, just have to control it and put it out of harms way, top of the riser / feeder.

[ken seeber]

RISERING TO THE OCCASION:

Trial 3. Stuff these fails, I know better (?) he says. Because the section is so thick, I think a chill is the order of the day, this being a preheated 10 mm steel plate on which the mould sat. The idea this acts as a cool, high conductivity piece of the mould cavity, causing the metal that contacts it will freeze off first. Being on the bottom, this will create a “directional solidification” effect, and the risers just feeding a gradual rising frozen level. Just as Fletto explained in his post above. It was filled down the centre sprue/riser.

343387343388343389343390343391


Well, sort of worked, but the thing leaked and still had shrinkage. Thinking this was then a lack of feeding (ie riser size) the plan was next to do the same, but with larger risers.

Call this a FAIL

To be continued…

[ken seeber]

RISERING TO THE OCCASION:

Trial 4 & final. It was fail & go CNC or just go success. Went for the latter. Same as 3., but increased the riser effectivness by both increasing their size and also adding more mass by interconnecting them. She says it’s like holding hands. Plus a hold down weight. We tried some time ago to get some magnesium flux, but the local Foseco dude has fallen off, so will get some via Sydney, seems to be the go. In its absence, I just set up an LPG torch and played a healthy flame onto the top of the risers.

343397343398343399343400343401

Anyways, all going thru heat treatment so will see what the man says when he does initial machining.

Morale of the story is to only do thin wall stuff or be prepared to add shitloads of risers & magnesium fluxes...

Call this a success..

End of story…

[speedpro]

The local foundry guys made a little casting for me that had similarities to that. They had the shape at the bottom of a depression in an open mold and just poured aluminium into it. Nice and simple and worked great. I'm no expert, obviously, but it seemed you complicated it more than needed, by comparison.

[Flettner]

I use these things for the risers. Thermal sleeves.

[Flettner]

I have to remake patterns for this cylinder head. Ill post the pattern making process as I go.
These after market heads for the EA81 Subaru, takes them from 72HP with standard heads, to 130HP with these heads, no extra revs needed. Just shows how bad the original Siamesed ports are.

[WilDun]

Unbelievable the difference in power! - hope there are plenty of EA motors (both pushrod and ohc) lying around for them - they seem to have been quite strong units!
Over in OZ (Brisbane)at the moment, met Darryl, very nice guy and bike enthusiast, lots of projects on......... What a dummy I am, I sat gawping at a B31 Beeza he was working on which was sitting on his workbench and didn't even notice that the bench was actually a highly maneuverable hospital bed! - most ingenious ready made solution for working with bikes I've ever seen!

[ken seeber]

Will, wonderful stuff. Great to see that kiwibiker brings people together.....face to face

Now, remember that the hospital bed is for BSAs only !!!!!!!

A simplified urine test that may be relevant for us!!??*
Go outside and pee in the garden.*
If ants gather:- diabetes.*
If you pee on your feet:- prostate.*
if it smells like a barbecue:- cholesterol.*
if when you shake it, your wrist hurts:- osteoarthritis.*
if you return to your room with your penis outside your pants:-
Alzheimer*

[Flettner]

Will, wonderful stuff. Great to see that kiwibiker brings people together.....face to face

Now, remember that the hospital bed is for BSAs only !!!!!!!

A simplified urine test that may be relevant for us!!??*
Go outside and pee in the garden.*
If ants gather:- diabetes.*
If you pee on your feet:- prostate.*
if it smells like a barbecue:- cholesterol.*
if when you shake it, your wrist hurts:- osteoarthritis.*
if you return to your room with your penis outside your pants:-
Alzheimer*

Great, now the wife keeps looking at my shorts:eek:, not sure if that is such a good thing.

[Pursang]

It was great to be able to meet with Will. He is also a very nice guy, knowledgeable and with an interesting history.

The Hospital bed is a great work platform.
Raises, lowers, tilts (to roll bikes off & on) and can lift one wheel up to make it easy to put a centre support under the bike.

I'm scheduled for 2x knee replacements, the bed might get put to it's actual purpose during my rehab.


Q: What does it mean when the ants just curl up & die?:blink:

Cheers, Daryl.

[ken seeber]

[Q: What does it mean when the ants just curl up & die?:blink:

Cheers, Daryl.[/QUOTE]

A: Too much antacid....:laugh:

[Pursang]

[Q: What does it mean when the ants just curl up & die?:blink:

Cheers, Daryl.

A: Too much antacid....:laugh:[/QUOTE]

:killingme Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

Back from OZ, had a good time there - Brisbane's a nice place and it was good to meet you Daryl.

Great! - now the thread has a bit of life in it again! - we will be very much looking forward to the pattern making process by Neil - (non 3D printed .... of course!).

I most probably will not be doing any more of the foundry stuff - not in the near future anyway - moving next year sometime.
Now beginning (reluctantly) to offload all my gear and I have sold off all my beloved bike books and engineering books (making sure that they went to the right people of course!), little pedestal drill, lathe which was acquired just a couple of years ago, along with other "junk".

Talking about peeing problems Ken, I wouldn't even attempt it outside in NZ these days, - it's so bloody cold that there are no ants around! - and with that icy wind - if I shook it there would always be the danger that it might shatter! :laugh:

BTW Daryl I kept spelling your name wrong, sorry about that, - now rectified!

[lodgernz]

I've just done another pour of my exhaust extension insert using the lost-wax method.
This time I used beeswax and definitely noticed less shrinkage in the wax mold.
I'm using plaster of paris and fine sand in equal amounts as my negative mold material (what's that called?) in the flask.
I let the flask dry out for a week in a warm place, then melted out the wax at 100ºC, leaving the flask in the oven for a few more hours.
While getting the furnace and crucible up to temperature. I had the flask in the oven at 250ºC for about an hour.

After all that, when I pour the alloy into the mold, it bubbles frantically like it's boiling, and the resulting casting is pretty shit.

Clearly I'm doing something wrong. Any advice welcome please.

[ken seeber]

I've just done another pour of my exhaust extension insert using the lost-wax method.
I let the flask dry out for a week in a warm place, then melted out the wax at 100ºC, leaving the flask in the oven for a few more hours.
While getting the furnace and crucible up to temperature. I had the flask in the oven at 250ºC for about an hour.
After all that, when I pour the alloy into the mold, it bubbles frantically like it's boiling, and the resulting casting is pretty shit.


Roger, from what you have described, I reckon the bubbling is from steam coming out of the plaster. I don't think the 250 for an hour is enough. Have a look at 2 stroke stuffing when he did his castings, there are a couple of youtubes. I think he observed that 400 was too hot (cracking) and was aiming for a bit less, say 350. However, he also commented that they were held at this temp for a week or so, which maybe over the top.

Also, your timing is good re plaster moulding. We are playing with a different cylinder head for a KTM 250 in a kart. Typically, the standard head can't be turned round so the coolant exits at the rear. Well it can be, but results in total short circuiting of the coolant thru the cylinder and head, and some even do it...why??? So we are doing a 2 piece head with a turned combustion chamber, backed up with a cast cover which provides a natty cooling path and has a rear exit.

Have printed up 2 parts, using stuff called Polycast (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBxp-9n_xjg&feature=emb_logo). The plan is to cast one using your 50:50 plaster (of paris) & sand mix. The other we will try some stuff called Omega Gold Star (https://www.goldstarpowders.com/products/ip-omega).

Here's a couple of pics of how we'll do it, with the down sprue going down the centre.

343704343705

Great to see you are splashing hot metal around.

343706

[lodgernz]

Roger, from what you have described, I reckon the bubbling is from steam coming out of the plaster. I don't think the 250 for an hour is enough. Have a look at 2 stroke stuffing when he did his castings, there are a couple of youtubes. I think he observed that 400 was too hot (cracking) and was aiming for a bit less, say 350. However, he also commented that they were held at this temp for a week or so, which maybe over the top.

Also, your timing is good re plaster moulding. We are playing with a different cylinder head for a KTM 250 in a kart. Typically, the standard head can't be turned round so the coolant exits at the rear. Well it can be, but results in total short circuiting of the coolant thru the cylinder and head, and some even do it...why??? So we are doing a 2 piece head with a turned combustion chamber, backed up with a cast cover which provides a natty cooling path and has a rear exit.

Have printed up 2 parts, using stuff called Polycast (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBxp-9n_xjg&feature=emb_logo). The plan is to cast one using your 50:50 plaster (of paris) & sand mix. The other we will try some stuff called Omega Gold Star (https://www.goldstarpowders.com/products/ip-omega).

Here's a couple of pics of how we'll do it, with the down sprue going down the centre.

343704343705

Great to see you are splashing hot metal around.

343706

Yeah, splashing seems the right word. Thanks for your advice Ken, makes sense. My oven only goes to 250, but maybe 3 or 4 days at that temp will dry out the mold for the next attempt.

Is that negative plaster mold called the investment, or is that the wax?

You appear to be adding wax sprues and risers to the printed polycast. Do they melt at similar temperatures?

[ken seeber]

Yeah, splashing seems the right word. Thanks for your advice Ken, makes sense. My oven only goes to 250, but maybe 3 or 4 days at that temp will dry out the mold for the next attempt.

Is that negative plaster mold called the investment, or is that the wax?

You appear to be adding wax sprues and risers to the printed polycast. Do they melt at similar temperatures?

1. Not sure if the 250 is enough, even for an extended time, but is worth a go as it most likely will eliminate the cracking woes others have experienced at higher temps. Keep us posted.
2. The polycast print is a positive and the plaster investment mould will be a negative.
3. The wax melts at approx 80C, whereas the polycast, although it was printed at 210C, will have a higher temp. The plan is to put the mould in an oven upside down at ,say 120 to initially melt out the wax into a tray so it can be gathered up and reused. The it will undergo a test schedule set by Omega which should be enough to burn out the polycast.
4. Sav the beeswax for your manuka honey bees :clap:

[WilDun]

I saw a video somewhere in which a guy burnt out his PLA printed pattern in the furnace, - the mould was 50% plaster/sand, but he heated it in the furnace till it started to glow red - he then blew it out with an air hose and poured the metal into the (still hot) mould ..... point is the casting came out fine and there didn't seem to be any cracking problem at all. - possibly he was just lucky!

[Pursang]

For those using 3d printers to make casting patterns......

This stuff might Eliminate some steps!:niceone:

https://insights.globalspec.com/article/13036/high-temperature-aluminum-alloy-for-additive-manufacturing

Cheers, Daryl

PS. for anyone interested in the kero/oil burner progress....Total failure.

After repairing the valve, cleaning the internal filters and the jet passages, it no longer has an (inconsistent) compact blue flame.

It now produces a 2-3m high, Stream of flaming kerosene. Only practical for alarming the wife, the cats & the neighbors.:eek5:

[F5 Dave]

So. . .not a total failure :msn-wink:

[Frits Overmars]

https://insights.globalspec.com/article/13036/high-temperature-aluminum-alloy-for-additive-manufacturing
(https://insights.globalspec.com/article/13036/high-temperature-aluminum-alloy-for-additive-manufacturing)QuesTek Innovations LLC, a developer of metal alloys, has created a new aluminum (Al) alloy for additive manufacturing. This alloy is capable of high-strength performance at elevated temperatures (200° C to 300° C) in as-built condition, and is believed to be the first powdered AI material to meet those requirements without the need for subsequent heat treatment.I spent half the morning reading through their claims but couldn't find any mentioning of the technology being used, so I have to assume it is Selective Laser Melting. We did all that ten years ago, with AlSi12 alloy that withstands temperatures over 300°C and does not require heat treatment either. So what's new?

[ken seeber]

I spent half the morning reading through their claims but couldn't find any mentioning of the technology being used, so I have to assume it is Selective Laser Melting. We did all that ten years ago, with AlSi12 alloy that withstands temperatures over 300°C and does not require heat treatment either. So what's new?

Frits, I spent 1/72 of my morning and nothing. When a company tells you wonderful things without:
1. comparative examples
2. 3rd party confirmation
3: patents
4: credible tests, costs etc

then don't hold your breath.....

[Pursang]

I spent half the morning reading through their claims but couldn't find any mentioning of the technology being used, so I have to assume it is Selective Laser Melting. We did all that ten years ago, with AlSi12 alloy that withstands temperatures over 300°C and does not require heat treatment either. So what's new?


Frits, I spent 1/72 of my morning and nothing. When a company tells you wonderful things without:
1. comparative examples
2. 3rd party confirmation
3: patents
4: credible tests, costs etc

then don't hold your breath.....

Sorry Gentlemen, at first glance, it seemed like a good thing (made you look!).
They do a lot of fancy presentation about how great they are (Fig Jam),
but provide little in the way of useful details.

Perhaps they're gearing up for an IPO?

Frits, has there been any development on the process you used, to create a 'reasonably priced' retail version?

Cheers, Daryl.

[Frits Overmars]

Sorry Gentlemen, at first glance, it seemed like a good thing (made you look!).
Never mind Daryl. I read a lot, and if 5 % of it turns out to be useful, I'm happy.


Frits, has there been any development on the process you used, to create a 'reasonably priced' retail version?The whole world has been developing Selective Laser Melting and similar methods ever since, so yes, the laboratory equipment that we used has been joined by countless mass production units, focusing primarily on faster production while maintaining fine-grained resolution.
Nowadays you will find companies that offer SLM on every industrial site. I can't say anything about the cost though. The operating cost of the equipment we used at the technical university back in the day, was € 100 per hour plus alloy costs.
My two 50cc cylinders fitted in the 'oven' side by side, so the run took 'only' 25 hours, but I paid with pizzas and beer :drinknsin.
Who needs money when you have friends?
343817 343818 343819 343820

[Muciek]

Here's some intake for engine and that company does other automotive stuff. https://youtu.be/IUp3oCGZOzk

[WilDun]

Happy Christmas and New Year to all you guys - hope to be hearing from you in 2020.

[WilDun]

Looks like the thread is waning a little - I guess Flettner etc have got a lot of other stuff to attend to these days!

Foundry work is something which the average person doesn't do much, even if most people are fascinated when they see it in action! - it does take some perseverance to be able to do it successfully!

I acquired a tiny little 3D printer (Malyan) a year ago which is a great little machine, all with the idea of making patterns for castings and in the meantime have acquired at least some good knowledge on 3D Printing and 3D drawing.
Yesterday I 'accidentally' pressed the button and ordered a Creality Ender 3 - a 'cheapie' with a lot of potential for improvement (which I relish), but which I hope will eventually end up a very good one (and by all accounts it can be made into a really excellent machine at reasonable cost).
It is much larger than my present one (a little smaller than your CR10 Ken) but great for me and my fascination with gears.

Although gears can be used in plastic form, my intention is to eventually have them cast in bronze using the printed plastic ones as patterns - cast iron would be too much of a quantum leap for me!

I'm looking forward to it of course, but as for knowing just where that will happen I'm not too sure, the future for us is a little uncertain just at the moment!

[layton]

Looks like the thread is waning a little - I guess Flettner etc have got a lot of other stuff to attend to these days!

Foundry work is something which the average person doesn't do much, even if most people are fascinated when they see it in action! - it does take some perseverance to be able to do it successfully!

I acquired a tiny little 3D printer (Malyan) a year ago which is a great little machine, all with the idea of making patterns for castings and in the meantime have acquired at least some good knowledge on 3D Printing and 3D drawing.
Yesterday I 'accidentally' pressed the button and ordered a Creality Ender 3 - a 'cheapie' with a lot of potential for improvement (which I relish), but which I hope will eventually end up a very good one (and by all accounts it can be made into a really excellent machine at reasonable cost).
It is much larger than my present one (a little smaller than your CR10 Ken) but great for me and my fascination with gears.

Although gears can be used in plastic form, my intention is to eventually have them cast in bronze using the printed plastic ones as patterns - cast iron would be too much of a quantum leap for me!

I'm looking forward to it of course, but as for knowing just where that will happen I'm not too sure, the future for us is a little uncertain just at the moment!
Its a real shame most of you fellas are in north island, i have a real interest in all this stuff aswell, i have melted bronze, copper and even some steel by accident in a "backyard" set up. I have only made slugs to machine but the next step is to start casting stuff.

I need to build another foundry i turned the walls of mine into a glass like stuff and it cracked..

[Flettner]

From these slugs, what did we machine? May we ask.

[layton]

From these slugs, what did we machine? May we ask.

So far the only real useful things have been bronze bushings, and a pulley for a lathe, i played with some melted down taps and fittings wasn't very nice to cut, i also tried adding some brass to aluminium to see what happend and ended up with something very hard and brittle.

Still new to it but find it interesting. Haven't decided weather to build another coal fired foundry or electric or gas, gas seems to be the easiest option from what i read.

[Flettner]

You may have read here I use E85 and a vacuum cleaner, works for me.
Coal might be too hard to control for aluminium perhaps.
Unfortunately if you want a pucker furnace you will need foundry cement, $$$$$.
Or just a pile of fire bricks, even these don't seem to come cheap these days.

[layton]

You may have read here I use E85 and a vacuum cleaner, works for me.
Coal might be too hard to control for aluminium perhaps.
Unfortunately if you want a pucker furnace you will need foundry cement, $$$$$.
Or just a pile of fire bricks, even these don't seem to come cheap these days.

Yeah, i wrecked my foundry with "coke" and a glass house blower that was when i melted steel... i have a few 4l pots of fire cement and on the look for fire bricks or kiln shelves . I have melted a few hair dryers the air compressor took a hiding and wasn't efficient but the glass house blower worked a charm. Next I'm thinking LPG

[WilDun]

Layton,
I haven't seen you round much before, but it would appear that you have got into the foundry stuff and haven't been scared to have a go at experimenting!
Yes it would be good if we could all get together to do some foundry stuff - it's a very interesting hobby, but I haven't done much as the situation here doesn't really fit in with foundry work! also my furnace, C/W burner, crucibles etc etc seem to have disappeared since an old mate stored them for me - unfortunately he split up with his partner and she's been "clearing out" the shed and obviously she hasn't noticed just how interesting, beautiful and useful foundry gear really is! ......... plus I'm too scared to go and ask about it!

Neil,
Good to see you're still around, - how's the flying machine going with your little two stroke?

[ken seeber]

Well in my case, I have no experience with coal (the stuff that Oz gives away for nothing at the expense of just about everything). I am very happy with a naturally aspirated LPG weed burner , $25 on Ebay. One match and you're off. I think it is around 20 Kw, so enough for 5, possible 10 kg melts, but probably not enough for the bigger stuff that Fletto is in to.

Project wise I'm getting totally distracted with an engine project, different, but a 2 stroke of course. Have been bashing my head up against a wall a bit (:brick:) , but it is running and none of the perceived failure modes have occurred as yet, but very much early days. Main issues are subtle indirect ones. She has been tolerant with me pissing off every day to do another bit. That's what holidays are for...to do your own thing.

Importantly though, has Husa hit the 10K????

[WilDun]

I agree with Ken that LPG with no blower works fine- I also don't think it's up to doing big melts like Neil's stuff, but it's very clean and handy for round town!
Ken, Glad to hear that your new project is working ok must make you feel good to see something you designed actually working - keep us posted.

[Flettner]

Yes Will, I've been a little distracted lately, one I prepared earlier. I built this one fifteen years ago (number 007 as it happens) managed to buy it back recently so have been flying it around my favorite Galatea. Turbocharged SUB4 motor (Subaru block) , great little aircraft even though its a pushrod fourstroke.

[WilDun]

Yes Will, I've been a little distracted lately, one I prepared earlier. I built this one fifteen years ago (number 007 as it happens) managed to buy it back recently so have been flying it around my favorite Galatea. Turbocharged SUB4 motor (Subaru block) , great little aircraft even though its a pushrod fourstroke.

Do I detect the good old Subaru climbing out from the depths of your mind, looking for an upgrade so it can put those two strokes to rest?

BTW, is the old opposed piston design you were experimenting with still buried somewhere in your mind? - I would have liked to ask a couple of questions about your findings with that experiment (but thought you'd gone elswhere).

[Flettner]

No Will, still here. Been trying to finish the 360 mk2 TPI.
Getting close but there is a lot of family stuff going on at the moment so my shed has to take second place.
Uniflow is not forgotten, have had some recient intetest but we will see. A company developing a Uniflow engine raised an eyebrow when shown my 20 year old uniflow in the boat,��.

[WilDun]

I do understand, - and there has been a lot of family things going on with me for the last few years - not like your situation around this time of year though, - more like what we'll be doing in the future with all the family overseas! only one (of three) left and he's going very soon with his wife and our grandkids.!
l would rather stay here in NZ, but wife thinks differently and she is a Kiwi! ...... hard to resolve - almost as difficult as finalising the design of the two stroke engine!

Good to hear that some of these companies are at least taking notice! - however they are up against it too and as I always say, it's not engineering excellence or innovation which sells stuff - it's marketing and fashion only - that's what brings in the bikkies! - Bikies? - Bacon ? - how do HD and B&S still manage to sell really very outdated technology?......... BS - that's how!



Then again, despite all that, try and stop a true inventor from inventing!

Happy and productive new year to you all.

[husaberg]

No Will, still here. Been trying to finish the 360 mk2 TPI.
Getting close but there is a lot of family stuff going on at the moment so my shed has to take second place.
Uniflow is not forgotten, have had some recient intetest but we will see. A company developing a Uniflow engine raised an eyebrow when shown my 20 year old uniflow in the boat,��.

Not uni but i seen this today
http://achatespower.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/modernizing_the_opposed-piston_two-stroke_diesel_engine_for_more_efficient_commercial _vehicle_applications.pdf

[WilDun]

Please forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think they are the only people (besides Neil and KTM) doing any serious development on the two stroke engine at the moment! - Looks like they have some backing (judging by the quality of their blurb anyway!), but good to see they are coming up with some worthwhile "excuses" for accepting the two stroke concept - we actually have to come up with excuses these days because marketing people never even consider it anymore and are really making the two stroke guys feel like naughty little boys for trying to keep it afloat! - so I hope that Achetes can find a market........ but then I did also want to see the Duke axial engine succeed.

I have been a very strong follower of the opposed piston concept for many years since I had a ride in a Commer truck at the age of 15! (ie 60 years ago!).

[ken seeber]

Fellas, decided that my little foundry was too complex, so went back to basics: At least he gets something done..:yes::yes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=681&v=2NAdyOPbOEg&feature=emb_logo

[WilDun]

Fellas, decided that my little foundry was too complex, so went back to basics: At least he gets something done..:yes::yes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=681&v=2NAdyOPbOEg&feature=emb_logo

The proof of the pudding is in the eating! and that one will be eaten and spat out!

(I do know it's only a demo of just how simply things can be done!).

[TZ350]

.

Here you go. https://youtu.be/jHMn92SAlgY You just have to admire what can be done.

Lost wax casting. https://youtu.be/v44bEsL3TCo

An AC compressor converted to a working motor. https://youtu.be/SxqyfB83tSo

And an electric go cart (motorcycle) motor made from an old car/truck alternator. https://youtu.be/IKqy3rRWJQE

The skilled making it look simple.

[Niels Abildgaard]

all the family overseas! only one (of three) left and he's going very soon with his wife and our grandkids.!

Happy and productive new year to you all.


Same to You

I once had a son in Afghanistan,one in USA and one in Germany and wife did not like it.
Why has Your kids emigrated from land of milk and honney?
I hope You find a satisfactory solution.

My former two stroke spark ignited opposed piston phantasies can be enjoyed here

http://archive.ph/zHnXJ

or here (different pictures)

http://archive.ph/s7gTY

The best place for spark plug will be in center of exhaust piston but I never found a suitable scheme.
Le us crowd invent.

[Frits Overmars]

The best place for spark plug will be in center of exhaust piston but I never found a suitable scheme. Le us crowd invent.My first thought was the method once used by Saab, with one electrode reaching down from the cylinder head and another electrode spike riding on top of the piston. the head electrode was insulated from the engine mass while the piston electrode was the 'negative electrode',
which meant that the ignition current had to move through all the bearings between the piston and the engine body; not the best of ideas...
My second thought (I had just been in contact with mr. Uniflow, aka Neil Hintz ;)) was to forget the spark altogether and combine the opposed piston layout with the HCCI principle. That's the best I can do at the moment.

[Flettner]

Ok Frits, just for you.
New my engine has no EFI or ECU or injectors, no reeds or rotary valve, no spark plug, no ignition system just two carburetors (ultimately one would do), KISS. BUT it is opposed pistons.
An ideal aviation engine maybe? My preasant engine (Subaru) burns one litre every three minutes, considered acceptable but it would be nice to do better on cheaper fuel.
This engine should run fine on Kerosene or Diesel or Jet fuel.
Idle speculation perhaps.
The unit I'm building at the moment displaces 98cc, has a clutch and gearbox attached, for road testing.
Im not wasting time on pattern work or casting just modifying an existing cylinder, I want quick results to tell me if I'm heading in the right direction.

[OopsClunkThud]

My first thought was the method once used by Saab, with one electrode reaching down from the cylinder head and another electrode spike riding on top of the piston. the head electrode was insulated from the engine mass while the piston electrode was the 'negative electrode',
which meant that the ignition current had to move through all the bearings between the piston and the engine body; not the best of ideas...
My second thought (I has just been in contact with mr. Uniflow, aka Neil Hintz ;)) was to forget the spark altogether and combine the opposed piston layout with the HCCI principle. That's the best I can do at the moment.

since there is no head to squish against how about shaping the piston to squish the middle and the combustion in a torus. this gives a wall to place one or more spark plugs.

344102

[husaberg]

since there is no head to squish against how about shaping the piston to squish the middle and the combustion in a torus. this gives a wall to place one or more spark plugs.

344102

i love that, you could have a ring of fire.
it could be the Cash engine.
https://i.dlpng.com/static/png/1205549-1300x1373-fire-circle-stock-photo-image-45302314-circus-ring-of-fire-png-1920_1080_preview.png

[F5 Dave]

Ok Frits, just for you.
New my engine has no EFI or ECU or injectors, no reeds or rotary valve, no spark plug, no ignition system just two carburetors (ultimately one would do), KISS. BUT it is opposed pistons.
An ideal aviation engine maybe? My preasant engine (Subaru) burns one litre every three minutes, considered acceptable but it would be nice to do better on cheaper fuel.
This engine should run fine on Kerosene or Diesel or Jet fuel.
Idle speculation perhaps.
The unit I'm building at the moment displaces 98cc, has a clutch and gearbox attached, for road testing.
Im not wasting time on pattern work or casting just modifying an existing cylinder, I want quick results to tell me if I'm heading in the right direction.
Sounds bucket legal. . .

[Flettner]

In fact its air cooled and the two carburetors add up to a 24mm throat, would I be allowed 110cc?

But it has oil cooling and more inlets than just the carburetors, so I guess back to 98cc.

[F5 Dave]

125 24mm if 'air' cooled.

[ceci]

My first thought was the method once used by Saab, with one electrode reaching down from the cylinder head and another electrode spike riding on top of the piston.

What is the ignition advance?
The spark jumps so far away?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yP7nVibde_A/TGT5nttGY_I/AAAAAAAADkI/iXfDbNGOWNc/s400/Angulo+encendido.jpg

[Flettner]

was a time when the two electrodes were touching, at time of ignition one electrode was moved away, causing a spark. A little before my time even.

[Flettner]

jet A1 acceptable?
Methane gas?
LPG?

[Frits Overmars]

What is the ignition advance?
The spark jumps so far away?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yP7nVibde_A/TGT5nttGY_I/AAAAAAAADkI/iXfDbNGOWNc/s400/Angulo+encendido.jpgI expected such a reaction, Ceci. But the electrodes need not be in line; they can have a little offset, so they can be longer and pass one another on the piston's way up.

[Frits Overmars]

This engine should run fine on Kerosene or Diesel or Jet fuel.
Sounds bucket legal. . .Bucket rulebook-legal, maybe. But I would not have such a contraption on my asphalt if I were a track owner. Dropping a diesel bike can put a circuit out of business for a considerable amount of time. Kittylitter may be useful for absorbing a few drops of spilled lube oil, but not for a gush of diesel oil.
On the bright side, no doubt Flettners new contraption will also run happily on gasoline or E85.

[Grumph]

jet A1 acceptable?
Methane gas?
LPG?

Frits makes a very good point about diesel....

Here in NZ there is a precedent for LPG. Mike Marshall won a Heatway rally with an RS Escort running on LPG.
Motorsport NZ gave him a waiver for that event to let him use it. It was supposed to be a "coming fuel" for race purposes.
That didn't happen but I'd reckon Motorcycling NZ would allow it if asked. They're a bit more open to alternative fuels now -
but still hamstrung by over-restrictive fuel testing regs.

[Flettner]

Its this with a few more holes in it, proper exhaust and much better control. Some have been interested as to what I'm up to. A reedless crankcase and a new head design.
https://youtu.be/TOHKls3Cxjs

[WilDun]

Ok Frits, just for you.
New my engine has no EFI or ECU or injectors, no reeds or rotary valve, no spark plug, no ignition system just two carburetors (ultimately one would do), KISS. BUT it is opposed pistons.
An ideal aviation engine maybe? My preasant engine (Subaru) burns one litre every three minutes, considered acceptable but it would be nice to do better on cheaper fuel.
This engine should run fine on Kerosene or Diesel or Jet fuel.
Idle speculation perhaps.
The unit I'm building at the moment displaces 98cc, has a clutch and gearbox attached, for road testing.
Im not wasting time on pattern work or casting just modifying an existing cylinder, I want quick results to tell me if I'm heading in the right direction.

Certainly it sounds better than attempt #1 - however, suggest changing the "manual " carb /throttle arrangement to a proprietary one! - when will the head details be laid bare?

[F5 Dave]

At least 70hp I'd claim if I were you. :msn-wink:

That's pretty cool.

[ken seeber]

Some good stuff here:

Neils: The 235/250 gm/kWhr figures are very impressive, so is the relatively low weight. Do you think these are correct? If they are then they’re wonderful. Best of luck with your Junkerator, it looks very interesting.

Patrick: Your annular combustion idea is neat in that it allows good access for 1, 2 or even 3 spark plugs if considering SI. Key issues could be the higher surface area/volume ratio compared to a central bowl. Did a quick comparison model based on 50 bore and 15:1 CR. 4567 cc for a spherical central bowl compared to 6295 with the annular. Feel free to debate the dimensions used. See pic.

344136

However I think the surface area would become less relevant when running HCCI

Husa: Ring of fire….good one.

Fletto: In your vid, were the speed fluctuations synchronized in any way to your spray gun (sorry fuel injection) applications?

Long live the two stroke…

[ceci]

I expected such a reaction, Ceci. But the electrodes need not be in line; they can have a little offset, so they can be longer and pass one another on the piston's way up.


His proposal was for the opposite piston engine, in that case the length is doubled. The electrodes would not be too long, which exposes them to easily deforming

[Frits Overmars]

His proposal was for the opposite piston engine, in that case the length is doubled. The electrodes would not be too long, which exposes them to easily deformingI was not too fond of sending the ignition current through the crankshaft, big and small end bearings, or through the piston rings, anyway. Spark erosion can be a great tool, but you don't want it to happen inside a running engine. We'd better concentrate on HCCI.

[Flettner]

So long worthless reed block housing.

[Flettner]

Always felt transfers were over rated.

[Flettner]

My two new high tech fuel air mixing devices have just arrived, thankyou Rob. Humm, no manual, Ill have to try and remember how they work��, no more click of a button on the key board unfortunately.

[WilDun]

Previously two steps forward, now one step back? -....... still progress!
Wot! ..... no transfers? - that's preposterous!

[Pursang]

So long worthless reed block housing.


Always felt transfers were over rated.


My two new high tech fuel air mixing devices

The Zen path to Simplicity...just keep eliminating all the unnecessarily complex things in your life. .:not:

Cheers, Daryl.:corn:

[Flettner]

since there is no head to squish against how about shaping the piston to squish the middle and the combustion in a torus. this gives a wall to place one or more spark plugs.

344102

This was sort of the layout of my original Uniflow, two domed pistons against each other. Each cylinder was 50cc, each piston displaced 25cc, with a single spark plug per cylinder. I needed 40 degrees advance to get any sort of power out of it. So I fitted two sparkplugs per cylinder ( four altogether) , advance down to 20 degrees, more sensible but still a lot.
Some of this is to do with how the scavenge is done.

[WilDun]

The Zen path to Simplicity...just keep eliminating all the unnecessarily complex things in your life. .:not:

Cheers, Daryl.:corn:

Yes, unfortunately, in my workshop days I met and had to deal with quite a few apprentices like that who liked the Zen philosophy (combined with the green stuff) and I saw two very expensive CNC machines bite the dust because of that simplicity!!

[WilDun]

This was sort of the layout of my original Uniflow, two domed pistons against each other. Each cylinder was 50cc, each piston displaced 25cc, with a single spark plug per cylinder. I needed 40 degrees advance to get any sort of power out of it. So I fitted two sparkplugs per cylinder ( four altogether) , advance down to 20 degrees, more sensible but still a lot.
Some of this is to do with how the scavenge is done.

What bore/ stroke ratio did you use in that engine? and were both crankcases used to scavenge just one cylinder? - were the crankshafts turning in the same direction or contra rotating? - which arrangement would have been best? (ie from the point of view of vibration).

[Flettner]

I did consider casting a piston with what would amount to a surface fire plug in its center. Wires were to be cast in (ceramic coating) that went to the outside of the piston. Carbon 'slip rings' were to transfer the spark energy.
All got too hard so I gave up. The differential piston size bought the combustion chamber to more managable dimensions with side spark plugs.
My new design is back to same size cylinders and a far more cunning piston / combustion chamber layout. It gets rid of the traditional Uniflow transfer issues and makes for a handy combustion chamber. The guy in Italy is evaluating it, so I can't say nothing about it at the moment.

Will, first engine, same direction cranks ( three gears), second engine opposite direction (four gears) all engines were smooth. Largely stuck to about square bore and stroke ( ish ). Exhaust lead intake by 6 degrees, exhaust and transfer were similar durations as a normal twostroke.
This helped with blowdown.

[WilDun]

.......... My new design is back to same size cylinders and a far more cunning piston / combustion chamber layout. It gets rid of the traditional Uniflow transfer issues and makes for a handy combustion chamber. The guy in Italy is evaluating it, so I can't say nothing about it at the moment.

Will, first engine, same direction cranks ( three gears), second engine opposite direction (four gears) all engines were smooth. Largely stuck to about square bore and stroke ( ish ). Exhaust lead intake by 6 degrees, exhaust and transfer were similar durations as a normal twostroke.
This helped with blowdown.

Thanks, I have been wanting to ask these questions for a while - now I've been told, it clears up a few things - but what to do (or maybe just think :rolleyes:) next is the question - however ....... it's all progress as far as I'm concerned!

[ken seeber]

Always felt transfers were over rated.

Yep, gotta agree. Used Devcon to block the top of the passages through to the cylinder ports. Seemed to expand a bit under running temps. Will grind it back a bit.

344165

[speedpro]

Not casting related, but given the interest in moving sleeve engines in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5m7HFtHLtQ

[WilDun]

Not casting related, but given the interest in moving sleeve engines in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5m7HFtHLtQ

Ken,those were very interesting little engines intended mostly for model aircraft but despite that they didn't "take off":laugh: - dunno why, maybe too pricey but I did hear someone mention that the bevel gear was bloody noisy!

[Frits Overmars]

Fletto, did you see this? <time datetime="2020-01-10T13:59:50Z" title="01/10/2020 02:59 PM" data-short="48 min"></time> (http://twostroketech.com/index.php?/topic/5757-f1-and-2t-engines-in-future/&do=findComment&comment=60724)https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/f1/two-stroke-engines-eco-fuel-f1-aims-be-greener-formula-e

[husaberg]

Fletto, did you see this? <time datetime="2020-01-10T13:59:50Z" title="01/10/2020 02:59 PM" data-short="48 min"></time> (http://twostroketech.com/index.php?/topic/5757-f1-and-2t-engines-in-future/&do=findComment&comment=60724)https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/f1/two-stroke-engines-eco-fuel-f1-aims-be-greener-formula-e

Quote of the decade

"It’s reasonably obvious that if you are going to pump that piston up and down, you might as well get work out of it every time the piston comes down rather than every other time the piston comes down," Pat Symonds, chief technical officer of Formula 1.

[WilDun]

Quote of the decade
Pat Symonds, chief technical officer of Formula 1.

I will look forward to that of course, but I guarantee we won't be looking at anything remotely like the two strokes we have firmly implanted in our brains!

[WilDun]

344182 - what the hell have I done this time?

[Flettner]

Fletto, did you see this? <time datetime="2020-01-10T13:59:50Z" title="01/10/2020 02:59 PM" data-short="48 min"></time> (http://twostroketech.com/index.php?/topic/5757-f1-and-2t-engines-in-future/&do=findComment&comment=60724)https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/news/f1/two-stroke-engines-eco-fuel-f1-aims-be-greener-formula-e

If only. I do tend to think this is a piss take, sounds too good to be true and you know what they say about that.

Although I have been spouting on about this for a while now, electric direct to ethanol, then burn it efficiently, returning the carbon from whenst it came. Not fresh from out of the ground.

Why the fuck didnt moto GP do this years ago with the 250 class instead of making them all big fat fourstrokes.
Keep the twostroke but bang some emmission rules on it, see where it leads. It would have been far more exciting, and usefull. Yay for Honda, barstards.

[WilDun]

If only. I do tend to think this is a piss take, sounds too good to be true and you know what they say about that.
..... I have been spouting on about this for a while now, electric direct to ethanol,............


Neil - not entirely sure what you are meaning here! - (electric direct to ethanol,)
At first I thought you meant powering a fuel cell with Ethanol, but then perhaps you mean just changing to Ethanol instead? ...... or am I just thick? :rolleyes:

[husaberg]

I did consider casting a piston with what would amount to a surface fire plug in its center. Wires were to be cast in (ceramic coating) that went to the outside of the piston. Carbon 'slip rings' were to transfer the spark energy.
All got too hard so I gave up. The differential piston size bought the combustion chamber to more managable dimensions with side spark plugs.
My new design is back to same size cylinders and a far more cunning piston / combustion chamber layout. It gets rid of the traditional Uniflow transfer issues and makes for a handy combustion chamber. The guy in Italy is evaluating it, so I can't say nothing about it at the moment.

Will, first engine, same direction cranks ( three gears), second engine opposite direction (four gears) all engines were smooth. Largely stuck to about square bore and stroke ( ish ). Exhaust lead intake by 6 degrees, exhaust and transfer were similar durations as a normal twostroke.
This helped with blowdown.
rejigged a bit

Tappered oil-scraper rings at the top of each piston and an up-passing taper below the wrist pin, the idea being to trap enough oil between those taper-faced scrapers,, to maintain full-film lubrication. The idea has appeal, but it didn’t work; the scoring continued.
https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/engine-development-as-permanent-crisis/

I know according to Cameron it didn't work on a 54.8L B29 engine but what about on a Feltner KISS101.

[ken seeber]

Nothing like casting today: 36 deg & humid (evaps don't even work too well it seems).
Before:
344256

After:

344255

What's this? An absorber, a gen set or both?

344254

[Pursang]

What's this? An absorber, a gen set or both?

344254

4 stroke bottom end, with remote flywheel.:scratch:

Cheers, Daryl.

[WilDun]

Nothing like casting today: 36 deg & humid (evaps don't even work too well it seems).
Before:
344256

After:

344255

What's this? An absorber, a gen set or both?

344254

Maybe the beginnings of a home brewed compressor? - hope things get nicer on the temperature front over there.

[ken seeber]

The great thing about induction motors is that they can act as a generator with the same output as they are rated at as a motor. In my case it is a 5.6 kW (7.5 hp in the old days) 3000 rpm device. Acting as a motor, it will run at slightly less than the synchronous speed (the slip difference) say 2950 rpm when under load. In reverse, it can absorb up to the 5.6 kW, but at a speed slightly above the synchronous speed, say 3050 rpm. The electrical power being generated goes back into the mains, turning your meter backwards....nice.

344261

So, we have a single speed dyno. Hence the stepped pulley to alter the engine speed.

How to measure power absorbed. Two ways:

1. Trunnion mount the motor and fit it with a torque arm and load cell/scale

2. Simply measure the current output of the motor. Dunno about the accuracy, but in my case it is just a comparator. Old elec motors are cheap particularly in my case, being a bit of a hoarder, it was already in stock. :yes::yes:

[husaberg]

The great thing about induction motors is that they can act as a generator with the same output as they are rated at as a motor. In my case it is a 5.6 kW (7.5 hp in the old days) 3000 rpm device. Acting as a motor, it will run at slightly less than the synchronous speed (the slip difference) say 2950 rpm when under load. In reverse, it can absorb up to the 5.6 kW, but at a speed slightly above the synchronous speed, say 3050 rpm. The electrical power being generated goes back into the mains, turning your meter backwards....nice.

344261

So, we have a single speed dyno. Hence the stepped pulley to alter the engine speed.

How to measure power absorbed. Two ways:

1. Trunnion mount the motor and fit it with a torque arm and load cell/scale

2. Simply measure the current output of the motor. Dunno about the accuracy, but in my case it is just a comparator. Old elec motors are cheap particularly in my case, being a bit of a hoarder, it was already in stock. :yes::yes:

Someone (Agnes AKA @ Stroke Stuffing) has one with the tire running on the Armature direct as ABB has conveniently already calculated the inertia of it.
It has built in robust bearing and is balanced for high speed so it made a nice Dyno.


https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130914338#post1130914338
344262344263344264344265

[ken seeber]

Someone (Agnes AKA @ Stroke Stuffing) has one with the tire running on the Armature direct as ABB has conveniently already calculated the inertia of it.
It has built in robust bearing and is balanced for high speed so it made a nice Dyno.

Hewsa,

Yer right, but all he is doing is using the gutted motor armature as an inertia flywheel. In my case, I just wanted a small steady state absorber. In this case to test the power output & fuel consumption of a small, transferportless 2 stroke.

More to come.

[Frits Overmars]

I just wanted a small steady state absorber. In this case to test the power output & fuel consumption of a small, transferportless 2 stroke.Been there, done that (sort of...). Below is an article that I published in 1977 about a revolutionary development: the Top Valve Piston System.
The photos should speak for themselves. Only one thing was not mentioned: it was an April joke :D.
344271

[Muciek]

On the uni I was attending there was a doctor case about a 2t with valve in piston crown if You can find those docs here's the numbers http://bibliografia.ath.bielsko.pl/cgi-bin/expertus.cgi?KAT=%2Fhome%2Fexpertus%2F0%2Fpar%2F&FST=data.fst&FDT=data.fdt&ekran=ISO&lnkmsk=2&cond=AND&mask=2&F_00=10&V_00=silnik+dwusuwowy+

[WilDun]

Been there, done that (sort of...). Below is an article that I published in 1977 about a revolutionary development: the Top Valve Piston System.
......... Only one thing was not mentioned: it was an April joke :D.

I have always believed that every joke is inspired by a serious thought!

[husaberg]

Been there, done that (sort of...). Below is an article that I published in 1977 about a revolutionary development: the Top Valve Piston System.
The photos should speak for themselves. Only one thing was not mentioned: it was an April joke :D.
344271

There was a design with a valve in the piston in one of the 2t books i have.

[WilDun]

I remember that design by Draper?? - just sold that book (was it an orange hardback)along with about a dozen others) but that was just a proposed or suggested design, difference between that and reality! - I used to think it would soon be in production - yeah right!

[husaberg]

I remember that design by Draper?? - just sold that book (was it an orange hardback)along with about a dozen others) but that was just a proposed or suggested design, difference between that and reality! - I used to think it would soon be in production - yeah right!

I think it was, only mine was blue and soft cover.
344275

[WilDun]

Yeah, .... well, come to think of it - it could've been orange and blue with sort of hardish /soft cover..... I think, but I remember distinctly, I think mine was from the sixties (or was it seventies?) - anyway, I know I did see it, but i'm really no further forward!..... I can safely say that I do know that!

[ken seeber]

OK, here's my collection of 2 stroke books inc Draper (blue cover)

344282


and here's 2 pages of crankcase flow entry via the piston. Just couldn't imagine the lifespan of the 2 piece version.

344283344281

[husaberg]

OK, here's my collection of 2 stroke books inc Draper (blue cover)

344282


and here's 2 pages of crankcase flow entry via the piston. Just couldn't imagine the lifespan of the 2 piece version.

344283344281

Cheers Ken, I couldn't be arsed looking for mine.
i have those bar the lower middle and lower left
along with bell robinson jennings and "Jim"
344293
Jims better known for his later work with stripped down models on calender's
344294

[WilDun]

YES! - that is it! (2nd one).
"I remember distinctly"!
That drawing set me off looking for new ways to make a two stroke work well (still haven't got it sorted after more than 50 years) - as soon as i kick the bucket I'll find a way no doubt and hopefully be reincarnated as a successor to Walter Kaaden but this time not to fill the earth with two strokes unless they pass the emission free test - otherwise fulfilling the prophesy, what was it? - "the sun shall cease it's shining and the earth will be turned to shit) - or something like that? :facepalm: - as happened to East Germany after they introduced the MZ engined "Trabant" - let's hope that there is an upsurge in new pollution free two strokes sometime soon !

Ken, Looks like we've read all those books from way back - they were great thing to have around that time, now maybe we can look forward to some new ones (online fine) on two strokes, if all the latest proposals are going to go ahead in that area!
Anyway, that picture with the valve in the middle of the piston crown has stuck with me for somewhere approaching 60 years!

[Pursang]

YES! - that is it! (2nd one).
"I remember distinctly"!
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=344294

Anyway, that picture with the valve in the middle of the piston crown has stuck with me for somewhere approaching 60 years!

A "poppet" valve, in the piston crown, of Carbon Carbon Composite with large(ish) diameter and modest lift might allow 'acceptable' RPM to be achieved.
That's just with displacement and exhaust effects. If it was mechanically lifted with (say) a link from the crank, higher speeds might be possible.

CCC Density is 1.6 -2 g/cm3, (Al is 2.7 & Ti = 4.5)
Strength up to 700Mpa
Dimensionally stable to 2000C. Higher with a coating (Al melts at 660C. Ti 1670C.)

Transfer direction control by porting the valve throat below the seat.

Hang in there Will, still interesting things happening.:niceone:

Cheers, Daryl.

[F5 Dave]

TZ250 B model I guess. Very pretty.

[Frits Overmars]

... Looks like we've read all those books from way back - they were great thing to have around that time....I have most of them as well, and like you say, they were great to have back then. But you needed to keep an open mind; not everything they taught was correct. Or to put it bluntly, not even half of it was correct, so believing everything you read could easily block your mind.
Oh well, maybe it's still the same today :msn-wink:.

[WilDun]

I have most of them as well, and like you say, they were great to have back then. But you needed to keep an open mind; not everything they taught was correct. Or to put it bluntly, not even half of it was correct, so believing everything you read could easily block your mind.
Oh well, maybe it's still the same today :msn-wink:.

You are wrong - it's worse! - it's all fantasy now! - at least it was only 50% fantasy then, so we had a 50% chance of learning something and building on it, now it's "act like you play your fantasy games and when it goes wrong, buy something else. or press the reset button and all will be restored"!

The guys here and in ESE etc who are thinking up schemes may not always be correct, but they are at least giving themselves something to feel proud about, ( ie turning an utter piece of crap into a functional thing of beauty) - or even if they don't achieve, then they feel good about trying! - instead of pressing a button and have everything appearing by magic!

I see the same with 3D printers - ie "I want one of those", they're cool and they're cheap ..... then - the same old whinge ...... why does my printer do this? or why doesn't my printer do that? - I'm about to toss mine out of the window - they're crap! - should i bolt on a $100 upgrade on my $250 printer before I actually start using it? .....

i've more or less lost touch with the bike riding scene now, but I'm sure I would find the same thing there!

Give me a break!! ............... maybe I'm wrong and just becoming a grumpy old bastard? ..... but at least I can say - I tried! - but do wish I had started on the foundry stuff much earlier!

[WilDun]

A "poppet" valve, in the piston crown, of Carbon Carbon Composite with large(ish) diameter and modest lift might allow 'acceptable' RPM to be achieved.
That's just with displacement and exhaust effects. If it was mechanically lifted with (say) a link from the crank, higher speeds might be possible.

CCC Density is 1.6 -2 g/cm3, (Al is 2.7 & Ti = 4.5)
Strength up to 700Mpa
Dimensionally stable to 2000C. Higher with a coating (Al melts at 660C. Ti 1670C.)

Transfer direction control by porting the valve throat below the seat.

Hang in there Will, still interesting things happening.:niceone:

Cheers, Daryl.

Dunno how the picture of that ''youthful rider" got into a post associated with me! - that is pure fantasy! - better get rid of that Darryl!!

Regarding "That valve" ..... I distinctly Remember, ... that, way way back (when I was about that "youthful rider's" age), I had a fantasy attack and devised a "foolproof" method of controlling the outer part of the piston using two (guided) rods with followers attached to the piston skirt, engaging with cams on the flywheels to gently stop it a little before bottom dead centre, hold it there, then re-seat it gently with the other half (attached to the conrod) as it came up again from BDC - I think I finally ended up with a trapped cam to prevent it carrying on at TDC in the event of a misfire! ..... just remembered, i actually ended up with a horizontal pin parallel with the gudgeon at the top of the rod which engaged with a slot (on the outer part) at TDC, this was to be the alternative! ......... but eventually, everything seemed to disappear into the vague mists of time!! - (doesn't mean I was intoxicated or even on the green stuff!) but I mean that i grew up and forgot about it all!
Beat that for April 1st material Frits!!
:laugh:

[TZ350]

A "poppet" valve, in the piston crown, of Carbon Carbon Composite with large(ish) diameter and modest lift might allow 'acceptable' RPM to be achieved.
That's just with displacement and exhaust effects. If it was mechanically lifted with (say) a link from the crank, higher speeds might be possible. Cheers, Daryl.

The little end of the rod could have a cam like lump positioned on it in such a way that at about 90deg ATDC it pushes the valve open. The piston closes the valve some time ABDC when it catches up to it as the pistons on its way back up again.

[husaberg]

The little end of the rod could have a cam like lump positioned on it in such a way that at about 90deg ATDC it pushes the valve open. The piston closes the valve some time ABDC when it catches up to it as the pistons on its way back up again.

like a side valve..........
those old hardleys and similar used to have an automatic valve that operated on engine vacuum
1903-1911
344331


https://youtu.be/tpvGoo16qPY

[WilDun]

The little end of the rod could have a cam like lump positioned on it in such a way that at about 90deg ATDC it pushes the valve open. The piston closes the valve some time ABDC when it catches up to it as the pistons on its way back up again.

Yes Rob,
That picture is stuck forever in my mind (just like the Ariel Arrow!) and now i see it has got into your system as well! - but remember, when I conceived that notion, i was about 17 (like the 'youthful rider' in the photo!) - and remember - it hadn't been long since I had found out that Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy didn't actually exist!

But...... I have still been trying to figure out just how it could be done - ever since it turned up again a couple of days ago!

[Pursang]

those old hardleys and similar used to have an automatic valve that operated on engine vacuum 1903-1911

The atmospheric valve does work ...but not if you want revs and power, as HD concluded nearly 110 years ago.

Diameter is one factor. The force available to open it = the valve area X the differential pressure (atmos to inside cyl)

Counteracting that force is the mass of the valve X the acceleration required to open it in the time available + any spring, if fitted.

In my calculations for the Supercharged (reverse) uni flow in Oddball I was looking at basic 28mm Titanium 4 stroke valves.
Force available with 0.5 atmos Boost (and 0 abs. in cylinder) was around 9.25kg

At 2500 rpm you have 0.006 sec to full open the valve from say 90 atdc to bdc.
For 7mm valve lift, the acceleration required is 388 m/s2.

Maximum permissible weight of a valve at 2500 rpm was around 24g, which is almost realistic.

Unfortunately, the acceleration increases by the inverse of the available time squared.

At 5000 rpm valve mass must be 6g. At 10,000 rpm = 1.5g.

Sufficient lift to achieve a decent Intake/scavenge STA plus the rpm limits are a problem.

Hence Frit's suggestion to make a Christmas wish for Fireproof, pressure-proof, detonation-proof reeds that open at the slightest pressure differential, and with so little mass that they'll allow any rpm...:(

The other problem I have with a piston crown valve is that we still have a 'petroil' bottom end and are not eliminating a significant source of HC emissions.

On the other end...a super/turbocharged reverse uni-flow with a single, do-nut shaped CCC valve in the head :drool:

Real foundry stuff is also coming...

Cheers anyway! Daryl.

[lohring]

The Gnome rotary engine (http://www.animatedengines.com/gnome.html) used a piston valve. Of course in a four stroke it had twice the time to function.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

The Gnome rotary engine (http://www.animatedengines.com/gnome.html) used a piston valve. Of course in a four stroke it had twice the time to function.

Lohring Miller

The Gnome rotary was a totally different scenario, - the pistons did not reciprocate, it could be called a pure rotary. - If you study carefully the path of the piston either in a drawing (but better in an animation) it can be seen that the pistons move in a circular motion and the only reversals come in the oscillating conrods (and poppet valves).
So really the only "reciprocation" which takes place is "relative reciprocation" obtained by the crankshaft axis being offset from the axis of the path of the cylinders/pistons (does that make sense? - hard for someone like me to explain so check an animation). - anyway check at 1:40 in the animation below and it will be clear!

I guess that i'm trying to say is, that in the case of the radial rotary engines, a valve in the piston crown would not be subjected to the reversals it would be faced with in a normal engine layout - but it would be subjected to centrifugal forces!

Some (a lot of) guys have done animations claiming they are gnome rotaries when in fact, what they are showing are normal radial engines (with reciprocating pistons) rather than rotary radial engines - they don't seem to understand the different concept!! :rolleyes: - the crankshaft should be standing still and the cylinders rotating - could they even be considered 'rotary piston' engines? - or does rotary piston only refer to the piston/cylinder relationship?

This is a good animation though - I don't understand the language (probably German?) - very good. :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX6ZlYYIsNU

[husaberg]

The atmospheric valve does work ...but not if you want revs and power, as HD concluded nearly 110 years ago.

Diameter is one factor. The force available to open it = the valve area X the differential pressure (atmos to inside cyl)

Counteracting that force is the mass of the valve X the acceleration required to open it in the time available + any spring, if fitted.

In my calculations for the Supercharged (reverse) uni flow in Oddball I was looking at basic 28mm Titanium 4 stroke valves.
Force available with 0.5 atmos Boost (and 0 abs. in cylinder) was around 9.25kg

At 2500 rpm you have 0.006 sec to full open the valve from say 90 atdc to bdc.
For 7mm valve lift, the acceleration required is 388 m/s2.

Maximum permissible weight of a valve at 2500 rpm was around 24g, which is almost realistic.

Unfortunately, the acceleration increases by the inverse of the available time squared.

At 5000 rpm valve mass must be 6g. At 10,000 rpm = 1.5g.

Sufficient lift to achieve a decent Intake/scavenge STA plus the rpm limits are a problem.

Hence Frit's suggestion to make a Christmas wish for Fireproof, pressure-proof, detonation-proof reeds that open at the slightest pressure differential, and with so little mass that they'll allow any rpm...:(

The other problem I have with a piston crown valve is that we still have a 'petroil' bottom end and are not eliminating a significant source of HC emissions.

On the other end...a super/turbocharged reverse uni-flow with a single, do-nut shaped CCC valve in the head :drool:

Real foundry stuff is also coming...

Cheers anyway! Daryl.

the limitations of valves to follow cams let alone atmospheric conditions is why F1 uses pneumatics rather than mathmatics:msn-wink:
the hardley engine was a joke on the Valve technology
Ages ago i posted the ""KOENIGSEGG freevalve


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3cFfM3r510

I would open the valve direct from underneath with a variable length solenoid

[lohring]

I understand that the Gnome was a completely different case. It's the only example of a widely used piston valve I could think of. It was still an era when engine design hadn't consolidated around a few concepts. Some really inventive things were tried.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

I understand that the Gnome was a completely different case. .......... Some really inventive things were tried.

Lohring Miller

Yes, sorry Lohring, - didn't mean to give the impression that I thought you were wrong!, I do realize that I tend to get carried away sometimes, but then, that's me! :laugh:

[lohring]

No worries. We old people tend to get crotchety as my great grandmother would say.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

No worries. We old people tend to get crotchety as my great grandmother would say.

Lohring Miller

Yes, and (certainly in my case) we tend to say the the things we think, when earlier on we knew better or were afraid to say!

[ken seeber]

Gedday, hope everyone is still alive….probably sitting at home waiting on someone to post something.

As we not are in complete lockdown over here (yet), did some 3D printing to make a small pattern. Did a mould in 2 stages and, as before, used the CO2 system. First stage was using 500 gm Superfine grade sand (for 2 of them) for facing the pattern, and when set, topped off with 600 gm of Foundry sand.

Dunno if these grades are of some international standard, These being our supplier’s grades : -0.300mm, -0.425mm, -0.500mm, superfine, foundry sand. The -0.300 is really fine, might give it a try at a later stage.

Just gotta put (drill) in downsprue and risers and then splash some metal in, hopefully tomorrow.

Stay safe fellas.

344985344984

[WilDun]

Good to see you Ken, keep it going, - I will now be watching with interest as I have a couple of small printers as well - we are in complete lockdown from tomorrow evening - things from now on will be tough and will change forever (as have my plans which were already a compromise! )
Anyway things are different now and we all need to be in touch! - good luck with the project!

[lohring]

It's a good time to work on projects. I stopped being a practicing dentist two weeks ago and laid off 5 of my 8 employees then. My office is now run by my younger employees. We are one of the few places where Oregon Health Plan patients can get emergency treatment. So far I've been printing face shields for the office and masks for my wife's adult foster home employees. Everyone is screening with thermometers and disinfecting carefully. Otherwise, the state is locked down as of today.

Before this all happened, My partner and I decided that the solution to faster model RC boat speeds would be a two speed transmission. Wee need torque to launch the boat and rpm to get speed with available propeller pitches. I'm working on a direct drive and a 1.6 to 1 gear up drive, two speed box. I discovered the ball shift gear box (http://www.dansmc.com/gearshifters_ball_lock.jpg) used by Hodaka. It should work well at the low torques we have to deal with. My partner is developing a dog shift version like the F1 gear boxes. We are looking for a clutchless shift at around 18,000 rpm. The planetary gear boxes with band clutches also looked promising, but were much more complex. Also, we can get suitable gears (http://www.davesmotors.com/?search=small+module+gear) that are used in RC cars for parallel shaft gear boxes. I can make gears if necessary, but commercial, heat treated gears are inexpensive and probably better. We'll see how a 3D printed test version works before I break out my sand casting equipment to cast the case and machine the other internal parts.

Does anyone have some other two speed transmission ideas? I investigated the RC car gear boxes, bicycicle multispeed hubs, and automatic transmissions but they don't seem to be suitable for various reasons. I also hope to get back to my flat twin project.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

Hi Lohring
- Times are tough and we need to learn how to live sensibly - really that's how it will remain for people my age! - doesn't mean we have to give up looking for something to keep us happy though!
That Hodaka gear engagement system was also used by the little Itom 50cc Italian "racers" from the early sixties, also something similar was used in the ISO scooter (from Italy - Milan?- as I found out when I took one apart - impressively well engineered power unit!).
I feel that Hodaka may have been inspired by those - good idea, but as you say safer for lower torque (relatively flimsy shaft) - In your case (gear up requirement) would it be better to use the output shaft? - anyway, it works at normal revs but I do wonder though how the balls would behave (ie could they be coaxed to retract at all at those very high revs?). Anyway keep us informed. ...... we are about to go into lockdown - worrying!

[husaberg]

It's a good time to work on projects. I stopped being a practicing dentist two weeks ago and laid off 5 of my 8 employees then. My office is now run by my younger employees. We are one of the few places where Oregon Health Plan patients can get emergency treatment. So far I've been printing face shields for the office and masks for my wife's adult foster home employees. Everyone is screening with thermometers and disinfecting carefully. Otherwise, the state is locked down as of today.

Before this all happened, My partner and I decided that the solution to faster model RC boat speeds would be a two speed transmission. Wee need torque to launch the boat and rpm to get speed with available propeller pitches. I'm working on a direct drive and a 1.6 to 1 gear up drive, two speed box. I discovered the ball shift gear box (http://www.dansmc.com/gearshifters_ball_lock.jpg) used by Hodaka. It should work well at the low torques we have to deal with. My partner is developing a dog shift version like the F1 gear boxes. We are looking for a clutchless shift at around 18,000 rpm. The planetary gear boxes with band clutches also looked promising, but were much more complex. Also, we can get suitable gears (http://www.davesmotors.com/?search=small+module+gear) that are used in RC cars for parallel shaft gear boxes. I can make gears if necessary, but commercial, heat treated gears are inexpensive and probably better. We'll see how a 3D printed test version works before I break out my sand casting equipment to cast the case and machine the other internal parts.

Does anyone have some other two speed transmission ideas? I investigated the RC car gear boxes, bicycicle multispeed hubs, and automatic transmissions but they don't seem to be suitable for various reasons. I also hope to get back to my flat twin project.

Lohring Miller

cvt................

[Frits Overmars]

.. it works at normal revs but I do wonder though how the balls would behave (ie could they be coaxed to retract at all at those very high revs?)It can be done without balls, as a feller by the name of Jan Thiel demonstrated over half a century ago with his nine-speed Jamathi gearbox, shown here.
344994344993

But strong as that box might be, you wouldn't want to expose it to WOT-shifts too often. And WOT-shifts is what you need to keep a two-stroke on the boil.

I suppose that there is no need for downshifts once that boat is in the water. And in that case you could use a dog-shift system whereby the dogs have a trailing slope, such that they are automatically pushed out of the way when they threaten to connect first and second gear simultaneously.

[Grumph]

The dog-box option is the simpler one. Examples exist, Bewley (UK) and Lenco (US) both did 2 speed boxes for drag bikes.
I believe the Pro-stock car class still uses a variant of the 4 speed Lenco.

It's all in the dog shape. They're clutchless full- noise WOT shifts .Usually pneumatic. But you can't decelerate in gear as there's only one load face on the dogs - the other side is cut away.

I was shown a US made GSX Suzuki drag box recently. The owner can't use it on our local strip as he rides the bike back to the pits rather than decutching and killing the engine.
I did a full undercutting job on a stock box which is apparently working for him.

[ken seeber]

Can't comment on gearboxes except to say that Vespas, and I think Lambrettas, had the expanding ball shift (sequential only) mechanism. As Wil pointed out, at 18k rpm, there might be centrifugal issues.

Splashed some metal today, all went pretty well, but the last one had visible shrinkage, I am pretty sure that the steel baseplate the sand mould sat on was a lot hotter than the first two. It is meant to be a chill. Will do some minor machining tomorrow, prior to the T6 heat treatment.

Still C19 free..

344999345000345001345002

[lohring]

Thanks for all the replies. The plan is to start out with the 1:1 ratio then upshift to the higher ratio during the full power run up to the trap. I also worry about centrifugal forces on the balls. I'm glad you think a dog system would work as well. Frits, I don't understand the gear selection system in the gear box you posted. Is there a sliding key that engages the gears? It looks very interesting. I think CVT systems might have too much power loss. We really don't need anything as fancy as that or 9 speed boxes.

Lohring Miller

[Ocean1]

The plan is to start out with the 1:1 ratio then upshift to the higher ratio during the full power run up to the trap.

What about a dual cone variable speed drive? Should involve less losses than a conventional CVT, and with a floating prop shaft could provide exactly the same seamless torque driven ratio change.

Might involve mounting the motor on a pivot, with an adjustable spring to provide the fine tuning.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, I don't understand the gear selection system in the gear box you posted. Is there a sliding key that engages the gears?Yep. Here are two more pics that may help. Drawing by Jan Thiel.
345005345004

[husaberg]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130910999&highlight=brian+woolley#post1130910999
345009345010345011345012

[ken seeber]

More casting stuff.

Did some basic qualifying cuts on the castings:

1. Facing in lathe.

345013 Bit of an explanation here, more one of design rather than casting. The part could have been simply circular, but was designed to have 3 equispaced 120 deg faces, and at the same radius. to ensure concentricity of the key features. Seemed to work.:msn-wink:

2. Milling.

The 2 projections are parallel to some of the features to be machined in. So, just plonk it in the vice, clock up the central boss, set X & Y and make swarf.
345014

3. Into H/T.

Seeing it is the same hypereutectic material as our pistons and brake discs, will be able to get the H/T done with this batch.
345015

More to come....

[lohring]

As usual, you all are a great source of ideas. Husa, did that overdrive system use a sliding key selector as well? Ocean1, do you have some links or pictures that illustrate your idea? Ken, I'm doing research. I intend to do my best to carefully copy any good ideas.

Lohring Miller

[Ocean1]

Ocean1, do you have some links or pictures that illustrate your idea?

Lohring Miller

No, sorry mate. It's really just an observation that the torque required to spin a prop at a given revs is directly related to axial load on the shaft.

So by allowing a small amount of fore/aft movement in a shaft with a cone mounted immediately fwd of the log you can use that in conjunction with another cone directly mounted on the engine crank to vary the ratio in proportion to the torque.

[husaberg]

I assume this is what he meant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFShKSFnrGw

or this with a smaller length slope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1aAmrR2us4
As anyone who has owned a Ford Courier or Mazda Bounty will attest the for and aft torque movement of these , as the gear box end wears is enough to move the whole gearbox out of gear in 5th. So if the slope was step you could have a reasonable difference in gear ratios.
my preference is still this
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/CVT.Photo.Wide.jpg

[ken seeber]

Cuppla goodies there Husa, I like the cone principles. However, to reduce the necessary friction levels of thrusting a small male roller against another male roller (ie convex to convex drive contact) maybe one could consider a male conical roller within a female cone, offering convex within a concave drive contact). Obviously this will require some change of angle of a simple propshaft arrangement.

Not too sure what power levels what you are dealing with Lohring ?

345024

[husaberg]

Cuppla goodies there Husa, I like the cone principles. However, to reduce the necessary friction levels of thrusting a small male roller against another male roller (ie convex to convex drive contact) maybe one could consider a male conical roller within a female cone, offering convex within a concave drive contact). Obviously this will require some change of angle of a simple propshaft arrangement.

Not too sure what power levels what you are dealing with Lohring ?

345024
Really like that

Anyone heard from Flet...........

[Frits Overmars]

Anyone heard from Flet...........He was on Fakebook 3 hours ago.

[lohring]

Our engines develop around 6.5 hp to maybe 8 hp at 16,000 rpm. The torque doesn't get over 3 ft-lb (sorry for the units). The friction drives look interesting. The details of a design might take some thought.

Lohring Miller

[Flettner]

Dangerous times

[WilDun]

Our engines develop around 6.5 hp to maybe 8 hp at 16,000 rpm. The torque doesn't get over 3 ft-lb (sorry for the units). The friction drives look interesting. The details of a design might take some thought.

Lohring Miller

Haven't had time to have a good look yet but I remember (from way back) that"toroidal infinitely variable drives" always intrigued me - They seem complicated at first glance but study them for a while and it'll become clear. - well let's just say that I had to study them for a while! :confused: - worth a look!

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/06/20160624-torotrak.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jIeSgq7ewI&feature=emb_rel_end

[lohring]

Toroidal CVTs are definitely worth a look. They seem to be a simple solution, but I need to figure out how to grind several matching spherical surfaces. There are other CVT designs that could also work. I do like the dual cone ones. I can grind accurate cones more easily, but the torque transmission looks poor. More research!

Lohring Miller

[Ocean1]

Toroidal CVTs are definitely worth a look. They seem to be a simple solution, but I need to figure out how to grind several matching spherical surfaces. There are other CVT designs that could also work. I do like the dual cone ones. I can grind accurate cones more easily, but the torque transmission looks poor. More research!

Lohring Miller

My bandsaw has a simple male/female cone drive directly mounted on a standard 3Ph 1250rpm 3KW motor. And that's typical of a lot of pre-VFD tech drives for conveyors etc.

The problem you'll have isn't capacity, it's the rigidity needed to keep the cones accurately aligned, any deviation quickly changes the contact line to a contact point, with corresponding loss of traction.

Think it's still worth an afternoon messing around with a bench model though, it's got significant advantages in terms of simplicity/benefit ratio. An old single phase motor with a cone of some hard fiber (typically about 20 degrees) mounted on a fwd/aft axis pivot with a spring and a steel male cone mounted on a shaft with some fwd/aft free movement would be instructive. Immediate issues might be prop shaft lateral flex and axial load on a an old fridge motor...

[husaberg]

One of the Porche electric vehicles has a two speed drive
I cant se a video of it in operation though. ZF make it, is it solenoid shifted? or doe the second gear work of a centrifugal locking clutch pushing out like a inertia starter
https://media.wired.com/photos/5d5c80b2c05481000863597d/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/Transpo_EV_Untitled-1.jpg

[WilDun]

Toroidal CVTs are definitely worth a look. They seem to be a simple solution, but I need to figure out how to grind several matching spherical surfaces. There are other CVT designs that could also work. I do like the dual cone ones. I can grind accurate cones more easily, but the torque transmission looks poor. More research!

Lohring Miller

How about a large ball (from a large ball bearing) - ready made - cut it in half and hey presto - plenty more where that came from too - only problem then will be find the special oil developed to give it grip, lubricate it and cool it as well! - Still worth a try though.

[lohring]

Oops, I posted my thoughts on the ESE thread. Below is the first cut at a design. I'm using a standard ball bearing between two aluminum cones. It rides on a carriage guided by a linear rail and adjusted with a screw for now. There's a slight interference fit between the cones and the bearing. The bearing is in the 1:1 position with an approximately 1.5:1 position close to the other end. The whole thing is a little big compared to a gear box. It has the advantage of adjustability for matching engine and prop rpm at load.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

Good start! :niceone:

[el chupacabra]

Seeing as this forum probably has the most experience on this particular topic, would anyone be able to give me a rough estimate on what it will cost to:

purchase the appropriate sand, prep my own moulds and have two crankcase halves cast
Vs delivering patterns and getting professionals to cast the pieces?

I’ve just priced up a piece of billet aluminium to cnc mill the cases and I’m just exploring options for this project. cnc milling some wood into a pattern would seem like a better option in terms of being repeatable. I’m just unsure of the cost involved.

Cheers, hopefully this isn’t too off topic. I’m just hoping to get a ball park within a couple of hundred dollars to see which is the best way to proceed with design.

[husaberg]

Seeing as this forum probably has the most experience on this particular topic, would anyone be able to give me a rough estimate on what it will cost to:

purchase the appropriate sand, prep my own moulds and have two crankcase halves cast
Vs delivering patterns and getting professionals to cast the pieces?

I’ve just priced up a piece of billet aluminium to cnc mill the cases and I’m just exploring options for this project. cnc milling some wood into a pattern would seem like a better option in terms of being repeatable. I’m just unsure of the cost involved.

Cheers, hopefully this isn’t too off topic. I’m just hoping to get a ball park within a couple of hundred dollars to see which is the best way to proceed with design.

Paging Neil

Dangerous times

[WilDun]

Seeing as this forum probably has the most experience on this particular topic, would anyone be able to give me a rough estimate on what it will cost to:

purchase the appropriate sand, prep my own moulds and have two crankcase halves cast
Vs delivering patterns and getting professionals to cast the pieces?

I’ve just priced up a piece of billet aluminium to cnc mill the cases and I’m just exploring options for this project. cnc milling some wood into a pattern would seem like a better option in terms of being repeatable. I’m just unsure of the cost involved.

Cheers, hopefully this isn’t too off topic. I’m just hoping to get a ball park within a couple of hundred dollars to see which is the best way to proceed with design.

This isn't off topic - it's the Bucket Foundry thread!

I haven't done a lot of casting, but I did build my own home foundry.

It all depends on whether it is for commercial purposes (and professionally done), or you want to build a useful (but cheap) setup! ..... and also how big it is.
If it's only for hobby/experimental purposes then I guess it'll depend on how good you are at scrounging! - I found that the main cost came from the refractory concrete for the furnace and the crucible. - no escape from that - (fixed costs) - probably around $175 - a massive sum!.

I mixed my own sand and I used a common or garden propane cylinder for the heating. - all the rest of the gear (including the burner, crucible tongs and furnace framework etc I made from scratch, designed from ideas I already had in my head or found from browsing the net - plus guesswork and using scrounged material, but the rest was done by browsing / guesswork, wandering through junkyards (no pride involved here!) and hard manual labour! - it was fun and I loved every minute! So I don't think that it would be possible to give a really clear figure! - just hard work and commitment! - when I look back I feel good about it - don't know how I managed to make myself do it, but I did!

All up I guess it came to less than $300 (cheap at twice the price!) - but I feel that you are probably looking at something other than just a hobby home foundry - so I guess this doesn't really answer your question! :rolleyes:

[Flettner]

el, not sure what you are asking?

If you have a CNC and are only needing one set and already have paid for the alloy, go for it.

But in my circumstances aluminium blocks are expensive and all you need is one mistake and its in the bin. Mistakes do happen, not just machining something wrong but leaving something out on the model. Start again $$$$.

I tend to machine out a pattern out of armorboard. Then if there is a mistake its easily remedied with glue and bondifil, in situe. And then I can produce a few castings, spares, etc.

Cost? I dont do cost, I just know what Im not willing to pay.

[el chupacabra]

Well long story short is I am a fitter turner/welder by trade and have in the last year learnt to use CAD and then I will learn to use CAM and then I want to make my own engine cases. All I want to manufacture is the cases and the balance shaft (Not too ambitious of a goal) then a frame and exhaust. This has been on my things to do for years. The more I read, mostly on kiwibiker, the more the design Is refined. So I finally got my arse into gear and learnt how to use solidworks to start on this endeavour.

The plan is to convert an optimum MH-28V mill (or similar) with ball screws etc to CNC. As it has the right amount of x and y travel. This will be used to either machine the billet ($1050 shipped for enough to make the two case halves, probably could better select a smaller off cut and save some more $$) or machine some glued together wood to create a pattern. The CAD model will obviously have to change with draft angles and scale to reflect this.

Anyways that’s a long story with probably too much information. What I was asking was, how would the cost compare if I was to just drop off a pattern and have someone do all the work vs dropping off some moulds to have aluminium poured? (If that’s a thing) I don’t think I want to get into melting my own aluminium as time would be chewed up by prepping more gear and learning even more further delaying.

I’ve not got any experience having components cast (aside from a coal and hairdryer powered furnace I used to melt cans into ingots with after school when I was 15) so I wouldn’t even know what a stupid price is if I were to get a quote from someone.
The casting appeals to me as I can cut down machining and make some spare cases in the process.

[Flettner]

I would not bother molding up the sand molds, Id just drop the patterns off an get the foundry to do it. Cost wouldn't change too much and they would know how to run the runners and risers, important to get this right.

Personaly I wouldn't piss around with machining from solid alloy, much better to machine armorboard into a pattern. Try not to go less than two degrees taper and your programe will be able to add 1.5% in size to allow for shrinkage. There, as good as done.

Might we ask what type and size of engine? End use?

[Flettner]

Casting cost? I had three clutch covers cast for me, $90 NZD, so I said go ahead, turns out that was each, bugger it but I guess that gives you an idea.

[el chupacabra]

The plan is to make a good club/track day bike with maintenance that isn’t too expensive or intense.

I plan on using a 72x72mm KTM crank and cylinder with it spaced to change the timing with a 6 speed XC-W gearbox. I want to run a balance shaft similar to an Aprilia rsw125 (not ideal but possibly the easiest way to stop vibration without getting late model parts so I can get things second hand to start with) I plan on water cooling the case and having the cylinder canted forward so the reeds point at the transfer. The crank would be shrouded from the intake.
The frame would be tube steel with a 600 front end with a single disc and a 600 rear end with a 160 tyre. Maybe my own design swing arm.

Essentially a bike that doesn’t vibrate too much with 65-70hp at 9,500rpm, weighing maybe 90kg. Using 95% off the shelf parts but getting a few extra hp by paying attention to detail. Kinda like a poor mans 250gp bike in terms of only doing single cylinder maintenance.

[Flettner]

Sounds like a resonable plan.

My next deveopment. Ive go heaps of half finished projects laying around but my intetest is definitely in this one. Maybe I'll finish this one, at least I know it has a fair chance of success.

[el chupacabra]

What is it? Some sort of opposed piston cylinder?

Half the trouble is doing one thing at a time and when you’ve got a lot of interests. I need to sell a bunch of bikes to stop them from distracting me.

[Flettner]

What is it? Some sort of opposed piston cylinder?

Half the trouble is doing one thing at a time and when you’ve got a lot of interests. I need to sell a bunch of bikes to stop them from distracting me.

Yes a uniflow engine, its kind of my thing, Ive built a few in tha past. They worked reasonably well.

[WilDun]

Yes a uniflow engine, its kind of my thing, Ive built a few in tha past. They worked reasonably well.

Aha, looking promising! - guess this is what you were describing earlier - ok, carry on and report back! - combustion chamber design might be interesting!

[Flettner]

That and the transfers, but Ive got both those sorted.

[WilDun]

That and the transfers, but Ive got both those sorted.

Good, I will be very interested (as I'm sure all the others will be) - original stuff - going by what you were saying earlier.

[palezu]

Hello,
greetings from bucket foundry in Finland.
I have cast a cylinder from iron. It is for AM6 engine. Aim for 70cc capacity, can use original cylinder head and the duct design is more like "test if its doable". But I designed it for stud mounting to allow for larger(huge) exhaust ducts later.
I decided to try out casting it from iron, because this way I don't have to make a liner or try to electro plate it. After watching a lot of youtube content (mainly luckygen1001 channel) it turned out that iron is not that difficult to melt. It also gives some benefits, iron is much less prone to porosity in casting than aluminium.

Design outer shape in Fusion360 (actually this is 2nd version)
http://i.imgur.com/O4WrRhHm.jpg (https://imgur.com/O4WrRhH)

3D printed outer pattern.
http://i.imgur.com/5R4rISJl.jpg (https://imgur.com/5R4rISJ)

Core boxes designed with Fusion360 and printed
http://i.imgur.com/4CHr3Icl.jpg (https://imgur.com/4CHr3Ic)

Core assembly(not easy to invent solution how to fix transfer ducts in place and align them. The transfers are glued in place with core glue )
http://i.imgur.com/tpeef2tl.jpg (https://imgur.com/tpeef2t)

Mold almost ready, exhaust core missing
http://i.imgur.com/zAqPacjl.jpg (https://imgur.com/zAqPacj)

About 100 year old Podolsk sewing machine as a iron donor
http://i.imgur.com/QHBV1uxm.jpg (https://imgur.com/QHBV1ux)

3kg of sewing machine ready to be melted
http://i.imgur.com/OsHr5Him.jpg (https://imgur.com/OsHr5Hi)

Iron melting in action. I have spent tens of hours to build, test and develop the furnace to be able to melt iron with waste oil/diesel mix (although it looks unprofessional with the hairdryer attachment :laugh: )
http://i.imgur.com/QIqCmD4l.jpg (https://imgur.com/QIqCmD4)

Newborn cylinder out of the mould and washed:
http://i.imgur.com/IezI1dql.jpg (https://imgur.com/IezI1dq)
http://i.imgur.com/67zEKIKm.jpg (https://imgur.com/67zEKIK)

It took 4 attempts before I managed to cast a sufficiently defect-free one. First 2 were ruined by core alignment problem and gas void because I had used epoxy as a core glue. Third one I didn't have enough iron molten. This one is different than the one in previous picture. I have already machined the surfaces, but not finished.
http://i.imgur.com/Qgaf9sJl.jpg (https://imgur.com/Qgaf9sJ)

http://i.imgur.com/LrIR4Xnl.jpg (https://imgur.com/LrIR4Xn)

http://i.imgur.com/FaNmJ2al.jpg (https://imgur.com/FaNmJ2a)

http://i.imgur.com/AUdXW2Ll.jpg (https://imgur.com/AUdXW2L)

http://i.imgur.com/Q4U1OEQl.jpg (https://imgur.com/Q4U1OEQ)

It had couple of leaks in water channel, but I could fix them by soldering/gluing. Exhaust duct got twisted, but it can be fixed by grinding(will result in not optimal shape, but it will do).

I have not finished the boring. Due to the virus situation I have not received my measuring equipment from china, but they should arrive.. Very excited to finish it and see how it works.

I have a couple of videos about the project with more details:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzezzkifju4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCCzsM7Y4b0

[Flettner]

You should be well proud of yourself, thats a great job. I know the effort it takes. Thanks for posting.

[F5 Dave]

Um, did you check the value of the sewing machine on Ebay first??.

[Flettner]

Um, did you check the value of the sewing machine on Ebay first??.

Yes, my thoughts to.

[WilDun]

palezu
Casting in iron in a home workshop is something which I would have been afraid to even think about, but you seem to have done well.
As I more or less said, I have never melted iron but I have machined a lot of it over my working life and it's beautiful stuff to turn and mill (if you don't mind the free carbon dust!)
Good luck with your project.

[palezu]

Thanks for your comments.


F5 Dave
Um, did you check the value of the sewing machine on Ebay first??.

No :laugh: I bought it for 20 euros from a private seller. Those seem to come up regularly for sale for about 20-50 euros and nobody seems to want them. Here they are popular for using as a home decoration but nothing else. I also thought that those vintage sewing machines would be worth a lot more, but apparently not. Then after I had already melted it, I googled the machine and found one which was for sale for about 500$ I think, so I don't know, maybe someone could have paid a good price for it :rolleyes: But it provided very high quality iron for my casting project. I heard from a youtube iron melter that these are one of the best sources of cast iron for hobby melting. I tried one melt previously from old chinese cylinders and a car turbo outlet manifold and these produced hard white cast iron in thin parts of casting, but this cylinder is soft and good iron completely.

[F5 Dave]

Might be worth finding a couple more and putting them away for 10 years. Especially if every other bugger is melting them into oblivion helping out your investment. :woohoo:

Sure that sort of thing here would cost a bomb.

[husaberg]

Might be worth finding a couple more and putting them away for 10 years. Especially if every other bugger is melting them into oblivion helping out your investment. :woohoo:

Sure that sort of thing here would cost a bomb.

Lots here in the country collect the treadle bases (also cast iron)along with non electric irons and old plows, horse drawn mowers and Gridles ,potbelly stoves for garden ornaments, but the sewing machines themselves not so much.
https://www.trademe.co.nz/crafts/sewing/sewing-machines/listing-2598998017.htm
https://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/lounge-dining-hall/tables/other/listing-2586730125.htm
https://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-collectables/furniture-woodenware/furniture/1950today/listing-2586899817.htm
https://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-collectables/other/listing-2586592712.htm

i would have thought old pumps and other detritus at salvage yards would be okay. but who even sews shit anyway, only thing i ever have to sew is teddy bear repairs

[WilDun]

Might be worth finding a couple more and putting them away for 10 years. Especially if every other bugger is melting them into oblivion helping out your investment. :woohoo:

Sure that sort of thing here would cost a bomb.

Dave, not much fear of them being all being melted down, - I have found that a lot of people love the idea of metal casting, but when it gets to the nitty gritty and hard yakker, watching foundry work on You Tube is a lot easier! - quite a rare pastime I think! (The moulds probably find it very fulfilling though!). :laugh:

[Flettner]

175 uniflow cylinder pattern underway.

[WilDun]

175 uniflow cylinder pattern underway.

Looking good so far! - not too sure what it'll actually turn out to be (not as yet! :confused:)

[speedpro]

175 uniflow cylinder pattern underway.

That 2nd photo raises more questions than it answers

[Flettner]

I've been lucky enough to have work right through this lock down so uniflow bits are done sporadically. Actually gives me time to think, less cock ups perhaps��. I've just finished a big commertial job so I might treat myself to some uniflow time tomorrow.
Transfers and pistons can not be shown, but everything else can.

[F5 Dave]

I was going to make some sort of joke about tank clearance but it never fully formed.

[WilDun]

Maybe we could call it the "Enigma Machine" ?? or ..... could it be a modified something else from a couple of years back? (possibly with only one piston after all??) but still uniflow! .... hmmm! :yes:

[Michael Moore]

palezu, your CI cylinder came out very nice!


el chupacabra, do you have a local foundry? Stop by and have a chat with them, I think you'll find that handing them patterns (that incorporate whatever details they prefer) is likely to be more to their liking than you bringing in a mold and asking them to pour it. If they have no idea what is in the mold, they don't want you blaming them if the part doesn't cast properly. And if you are looking at full DIY using professional quality materials I think you'll save a lot of money/time/aggro by avoiding that. Give them patterns they are happy to mold and pour and let them give you sound castings in a known alloy. You might be able to get them to HT the castings for not a lot of extra as long as you can wait for them to go into a scheduled batch.

A friend has gotten castings from a foundry 400 miles away. He sent them loose Renshape patterns (V8 car rocker covers) and they sent back the patterns and castings. So while it would be nice to deal with a reputable local foundry if you don't have one then there are alternate options.

cheers,
Michael

[Flettner]

a little more work on the shell sand core machine.

[Flettner]

Finally a bit of patternmaking. Single cylinder Uniflow.

[Flettner]

Uniflow cylinder moving along. Making core boxes.

[WilDun]

Uniflow cylinder moving along. Making core boxes.

A bit early to ask, but how do you think the plating process will cope with the extra long bore?

And ..... I hope you checked the tarp on the 360 outside in the rain! :eek5:

[Flettner]

yes and yes.
Tarp is well secure
nikasil guy, Grant, says 48 x 220 no problem. Intetestingly treated as a single cylinder, in regards to costing, good aye.

[Flettner]

cylinder bore core box.

[Grumph]

Yeah, Grant's one of the good guys. I'd have thought with those proportions, distortion could be a problem.
Any thoughts or anticipation of how to avoid it ?

What wood are you using ? Looks to machine well. Tell me it's an old Kauri fencepost....

[Flettner]

macrocarpa post.

[WilDun]

Yeah, Grant's one of the good guys. I'd have thought with those proportions, distortion could be a problem.
Any thoughts or anticipation of how to avoid it ?....

Grumph,
I was thinking more on the lines of how consistent the thickness of the plating would be - I believe that with (chrome at least) plating tends to be thicker at each end - but then with the Nikasil process, it might be a very different scenario!

Neil,
Are you considering a "straight line" arrangement for the piston assembly? or is it as yet 'classified information' as in your transfer arrangement (eg like 'shutting down' some ports - as you alluded to earlier)?

[Grumph]

Grumph,
I was thinking more on the lines of how consistent the thickness of the plating would be - I believe that with (chrome at least) plating tends to be thicker at each end - but then with the Nikasil process, it might be a very different scenario!


Grant has explained it to me at one point. Forgotten most of it now but thickness is consistent over the length.

What I was told - and remembered - is that doing blocks with adjacent bores like 6 cylinder BMW's can be a problem with heat buildup
I think they do alternate bores to avoid this.

The long cylinder here with ports cut in it could be a candidate for distortion - but as you say, Wil, I could be wrong.
Grant and the boys have done enough now they should know what they're doing. But in Grant's words to me "that Neil guy sends us some weird stuff"
But it was said admiringly....

[Flettner]

Will D, I got lots of ideas, it depends on which one wins on the day of the pattern being made.
No, really, this one will just use standard crank cases and rods. Im trying not to make my usual mistake of cramming too many new things into one development.