The Bucket Foundry [Archive] - Page 8

Frits Overmars

25th December 2015, 22:53

the gear ratio dropped to 2 to 1 (not three to one as I originaly intended) so I needed a little more stroke to get a rapid compression rise at TDCYou could even get your rapid compression rise with a one to one ratio. Ever considered the weird gears in the picture below? I used them in the design of an Aspin-type rotary exhaust valve because with a constant rotation velocity it would not open quick enough, and I wanted a low rotation velocity when compression and combustion pressure were acting on the valve. For you it would have to be just the opposite: a quick rotation near TDC and a leisurely pace before and after.
http://www.google.de/?gws_rd=cr&ei=Nzd9VvvPIYv5ywPUxavIDQ#newwindow=1&q=non+circular+gears+design+and+generation

Frits Overmars

25th December 2015, 23:00

I heard VW already had a clean running Two stroke with zero emissions............:msn-wink:You're referring to Dieselgate?
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Flettner

26th December 2015, 12:20

You could even get your rapid compression rise with a one to one ratio. Ever considered the weird gears in the picture below? I used them in the design of an Aspin-type rotary exhaust valve because with a constant rotation velocity it would not open quick enough, and I wanted a low rotation velocity when compression and combustion pressure were acting on the valve. For you it would have to be just the opposite: a quick rotation near TDC and a leisurely pace before and after.
http://www.google.de/?gws_rd=cr&ei=Nzd9VvvPIYv5ywPUxavIDQ#newwindow=1&q=non+circular+gears+design+and+generation

Yes I've seen them. Not that easy to build, had a similar project that was going to use oval gears for the same reason.
Turns out that this engine might be a little harder to control than I though what with combustion chamber pressure changes as the pipe starts to work. I think it will need a serious timing change system?

Edit, SO, it runs!! I can't hold the phone camera and operate the engine at the same time, drill start, (clearly just a male) so when I get somone else around I'll get video and post it. Much excitment.

TZ350

26th December 2015, 13:50

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SO, it runs!! .... Much excitement.

HCCI ............. :woohoo:

Flettner

26th December 2015, 15:56

Well I've spent all afternoon and can't get HCCI to work again? I had made some changes, so back to the beginning and hay presto it runs again.
Part of the problem is you need to spin the engine over faster than a hand drill on low speed but after the changes I made that's all the power I had so I needed low gear, not enough! And when it does fire up the first thing that happens, if you try to keep the drill going (and the engine going), it unscrews the flywheel nut I'm starting it on (via a socket), then the drive pully falls off. No one way drive in the system.
So it would seem I need an electric motor on a hinge with a v belt.
But it does run on HCCI (no spark plug at all) and in the short bursts It has been doing it seems to run well, free running only though.
And the fact that the engine stops when the bottom pully falls off means combustion relies on the small piston rapidly raising pressure (and heat), with out it, the engine just stops.
Interesting enough results to continue I think.

TZ350

26th December 2015, 16:09

Interesting enough results to continue I think.

............... :niceone:

Lightbulb

26th December 2015, 18:59

Great news Neil.
Did you loose my phone number ?
Neil

Flettner

26th December 2015, 19:37

Great news Neil.
Did you loose my phone number ?
Neil

I didn't want to bother anyone untill I knew it would go.
Monday I'll set it up with an electric motor (2.2Kw) and then I'll get you out to video it if you like.
Trail ride tomorrow, Raglan, not one to be missed.

Lightbulb

26th December 2015, 21:59

I didn't want to bother anyone untill I knew it would go.
Monday I'll set it up with an electric motor (2.2Kw) and then I'll get you out to video it if you like.
Trail ride tomorrow, Raglan, not one to be missed.

Yeah, look forward to the call. It will be a pleasure to witness something new to me. We are having a Family day tomorrow.

Frits Overmars

26th December 2015, 23:21

SO, it runs!! ... Much excitment.Neils, I don't mind telling you that reading this feels like a Christmas present. You're incredible!
you need to spin the engine over faster than a hand drill... So it would seem I need an electric motor on a hinge with a v belt.How about screwing in a spark plug after all, and maybe a small carburetter, just as a starting aid?

Grumph

27th December 2015, 10:08

How about screwing in a spark plug after all, and maybe a small carburetter, just as a starting aid?

This works for me....

Yow Ling

27th December 2015, 13:40

wot about a glow plug just to get things underway , seems popular on diesels

Frits Overmars

27th December 2015, 21:13

wot about a glow plug just to get things underway , seems popular on dieselsA glow plug in an engine charged with a homogeneous fuel-air mixture is the worst thing you can have, Yow Ling. The higher the quality of the cylinder filling, the more ignition advance you will get; exactly what you do not want, because at WOT the burn will start way too early, causing a steep pressure rise before TDC, with a lot of negative work on the piston and a huge detonation risk.
I encountered this problem when working with model engines. They run way too rich because otherwise detonation would ruin the glow plug in a matter of seconds.
Using a glow plug with a shorter or thicker filament that does not glow quite so bright, would improve the power, but at the unacceptable risk that the engine might miss a combustion occurence, which would immediately stop any further chance of combustion.
Substituting the glow plug on these little engines with a spark plug would raise the power from about 5 hp to well over 6 hp, but the spark ignition would be too bulky and present too much of an interference risk with the radio control.
In a diesel it's different because the burn can only start after the first drops of fuel are injected, near TDC. And the burn will be spread over time (and over crankshaft degrees) just as the injection is spread over time.

ken seeber

28th December 2015, 01:09

In a diesel it's different because the burn can only start after the first drops of fuel are injected, near TDC. And the burn will be spread over time (and over crankshaft degrees) just as the injection is spread over time.

I am still a bit confused at the subtlety of difference between diesel and HCCI. I suppose with HCCI it is the seemingly capped peak values of consistent combustion pressures compared to detonation, whereas a diesel is controlled by the rate of fuelling over a discrete period of time. Still HCCI seems like a good thing when working.

I can see why that Neil likes it.....no friggin electronics, just good mechanical bits.

As to glow plugs, I always thought that diesel glow plugs were more of a pre-heater, that switched off after the engine gets up to temp. That's why that dude in the Lohmann Youtube was heating up the cylinder with a LPG torch. And glow plugs in model engines were more a necessary part of the combustion process. Either way, I agree that it would be good to have something that Neil could get it started and switch off when underway. He does have some mini plugs available and the engine has an ignition system in place. That's if he can't get a procedure to give repeatable starting/running.

Still though, what a legend he is.

WilDun

28th December 2015, 08:46

Yow Ling

28th December 2015, 08:54

A glow plug in an engine charged with a homogeneous fuel-air mixture is the worst thing you can have, Yow Ling. The higher the quality of the cylinder filling, the more ignition advance you will get; exactly what you do not want, because at WOT the burn will start way too early, causing a steep pressure rise before TDC, with a lot of negative work on the piston and a huge detonation risk.
I encountered this problem when working with model engines. They run way too rich because otherwise detonation would ruin the glow plug in a matter of seconds.
Using a glow plug with a shorter or thicker filament that does not glow quite so bright, would improve the power, but at the unacceptable risk that the engine might miss a combustion occurence, which would immediately stop any further chance of combustion.
Substituting the glow plug on these little engines with a spark plug would raise the power from about 5 hp to well over 6 hp, but the spark ignition would be too bulky and present too much of an interference risk with the radio control.
In a diesel it's different because the burn can only start after the first drops of fuel are injected, near TDC. And the burn will be spread over time (and over crankshaft degrees) just as the injection is spread over time.

Frits, my suggestion for glowplugs was to preheat the chamber before turning the engine over, just as they are used in diesels, the other old method was to use an inlet heater, my thinking was the blowtorch was a little too much Lanz Bulldog and afterall most homes have electricity we could use.
Is a semi diesel HCCI?

speedpro

28th December 2015, 10:11

Perhaps it might be an idea to go back to foundry stuff now and then, so I should tell you that as I have been in hospital etc, my wife decided to "tidy up" in the garage and I had made several split patterns (ie two halves glued together using paper and PVA) - they, along with several important pieces of wood and useful ally bits and pieces, got rescued from the rubbish bag just in time! One split pattern (probably 30mm dia and about a couple of feet long was also being used for stirring weedkiller for the garden!! - pissed off? - you bet!
:facepalm:

This sort of thing is why my wife is only allowed to pass through my garage on the way to hers. After much yelling from me she has finally figured out not to touch anything in the garage, ever. The only thing that still happens is a tool might go missing only to be found much later in a kitchen drawer or cupboard. Nobody ever knows how it got there.

Frits Overmars

28th December 2015, 10:24

Frits, my suggestion for glowplugs was to preheat the chamber before turning the engine over, just as they are used in diesels, the other old method was to use an inlet heater, my thinking was the blowtorch was a little too much Lanz Bulldog and afterall most homes have electricity we could use.
Is a semi diesel HCCI?A glowplug may preheat the air in the combustion chamber but I don't think it will do much good for the chamber's wall temperature.
what is a semi diesel?

WilDun

28th December 2015, 10:52

what is a semi diesel?

It's really just another name for a "Hot Bulb Engine" such as the German Lanz Bulldog tractor of the 'twenties' and 'thirties'.
http://www.fwi.co.uk/machinery/understanding-the-hot-bulb-engine.htm

Flettner

28th December 2015, 14:51

Yes one of my pre heat methods was to hold the Hot Air Gun at the inlet as the engine turned over but it all got too messy trying to hold everything. I've spent today sorting out parents (mine and my wifes) so nothing has been done. Although I've found some pullys, a belt and some steel channel to bolt it all to, engine and 2.2 KW motor. Perhaps this evening or tomorrow when things have settled down.

F5 Dave

28th December 2015, 19:03

Have you considered alchemy Neil?

I'll sponsor enough scrap metal once you get the first multitude carat result, I'm assuming Tuesday.

ken seeber

28th December 2015, 19:29

I'll sponsor enough scrap metal once you get the first multitude carat result, I'm assuming Tuesday.

No scrap metal here Dave, but a generous sharing from a fellow ANZACian. Had to do some welding on it and, because it looked so shitty, I thought an action pic will hide the mess. Next is the O ring grooves. Ultimately the collection will sit on some old reed valve 100 cc IAME crankcases, with a 50 bore and stroke and, not surprisingly, it will use a STRIKE piston. The goal being a carburetted 2 stroke that 2 strokes at idle.

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Niels Abildgaard

28th December 2015, 19:37

what is a semi diesel?

Try Youtube Semi diesel

Flettner

28th December 2015, 22:11

Semi Diesel is not HCCI. Semi Diesel is just a glow plug engine with the hot bulb being the glow plug. I guess hot bulb is only good for low speed engines where static compression is adjusted (at the factory) to get the timing about right. And it has an actual ignition point, a bit like a spark plug.

ken seeber

28th December 2015, 23:22

The goal being a carburetted 2 stroke that 2 strokes at idle.

In hindsight, I thought I should explain this a bit more. Essentially this is a sliding cylinder that can be raised or lowered, thereby altering the exh and transfer timings. In this case, the head is stationary, held in place by the sturdy external water jacket, so the CR is constant. At the lowest position, the transfers will be only 3 mm above the piston at BDC, giving 84 deg transfer & 158 exh duration. When raised, the durations will be 130 and 200 respectively. The hoped for improvement in low speed “cycle to cycle” combustion variation might/will/better come about due to the late commencement in scavenge flow and its short time duration giving less opportunity for the fuel charge to be lost out the exhaust. This also being a product of its potential higher velocity forcing the charge to follow its full scavenge path.
In this case, the scavenge path is the FOS or contra axial flow arrangement.
The sliding cylinder thing came about in ESE (approx Jan 2015) when there was discussion on controlling the mass flow rate through the engine by varying the transfer port height, this possibly being the primary load controlling mechanism.
So, who knows?

husaberg

28th December 2015, 23:45

Yow Ling

29th December 2015, 05:02

Pretty sure I was 129457% my idea :innocent: (But only if it works)
I recall at the time We Kiwis offered to swap you Russell Crowe for the exclusive patent rights to it....................

All it needs is a great silly acronym

Controled utility numerically throttled transfers

husaberg

29th December 2015, 05:15

Controled utility numerically throttled transfers

I must say, it has a nice ring to it.................:msn-wink:

Grumph

29th December 2015, 05:32

Adjustable ratio scavenge engine, surely ?

Lightbulb

29th December 2015, 10:59

[QUOTE=ken seeber;1130932893] The goal being a carburetted 2 stroke that 2 strokes at idle.

In hindsight, I thought I should explain this a bit more. Essentially this is a sliding cylinder that can be raised or lowered, thereby altering the exh and transfer timings. In this case, the head is stationary, held in place by the sturdy external water jacket, so the CR is constant. At the lowest position, the transfers will be only 3 mm above the piston at BDC, giving 84 deg transfer & 158 exh duration. When raised, the durations will be 130 and 200 respectively. The hoped for improvement in low speed “cycle to cycle” combustion variation might/will/better come about due to the late commencement in scavenge flow and its short time duration giving less opportunity for the fuel charge to be lost out the exhaust. This also being a product of its potential higher velocity forcing the charge to follow its full scavenge path.
In this case, the scavenge path is the FOS or contra axial flow arrangement.
The sliding cylinder thing came about in ESE (approx Jan 2015) when there was discussion on controlling the mass flow rate through the engine by varying the transfer port height, this possibly being the primary load controlling mechanism.
So, who knows?

Nice work Ken, are you going to make this with variable compression as well further down the track with a inner moving chamber while keeping a constant squish clearance ?
I was looking at a transducer making a fog/mist the other day, actually for acetone, but it got me to thinking about a transducer making a fog to mix the air with the petrol. It should be able to give a much better air fuel mixing than a carburetor or fuel injection. Just not sure how it could be controlled to give the right ratio. But if HCCI works like I think it does, the lean mixture would still ignite.

Grumph

29th December 2015, 12:00

[QUOTE=ken seeber;1130932968]

Nice work Ken, are you going to make this with variable compression as well further down the track with a inner moving chamber while keeping a constant squish clearance ?
I was looking at a transducer making a fog/mist the other day, actually for acetone, but it got me to thinking about a transducer making a fog to mix the air with the petrol. It should be able to give a much better air fuel mixing than a carburetor or fuel injection. Just not sure how it could be controlled to give the right ratio. But if HCCI works like I think it does, the lean mixture would still ignite.

History again - in the 50's Guzzi ran a supercharged 500 four legally. The blower merely blew air across a fuel nozzle to atomise it. No inlet pressure. Bloody complicated way of doing things. From memory I think there was an engine speed fuel pump and a rotating valve like a Hilborn to vary quantity of fuel.

husaberg

29th December 2015, 12:33

History again - in the 50's Guzzi ran a supercharged 500 four legally. The blower merely blew air across a fuel nozzle to atomise it. No inlet pressure. Bloody complicated way of doing things. From memory I think there was an engine speed fuel pump and a rotating valve like a Hilborn to vary quantity of fuel.

I posted pic and a diagram I think in the ESE thread. I will have a look it was from memory direct cylinder mainly air injection
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130654830#post1130654830
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To save you digging it out Grumph I can email it if you like?

jasonu

29th December 2015, 13:47

Controled utility numerically throttled transfers

I thought that was an acronym for Gypsies. Caravan Utilizing Nomadic Travelers...

husaberg

29th December 2015, 15:00

I thought that was an acronym for Gypsies. Caravan Utilizing Nomadic Travelers...

We call them Azkels but only if they have no bikes and a couple of tethered Goats.

Flettner

30th December 2015, 10:57

https://youtu.be/-2AhNvDFNlQ

Linear rod crank, no cams, no scotch yoke, just a crank within a crank. Each crank offset is 12.5mm, total stroke is 50mm. Not over hung, fully supported. Clicking sound is the rod touching the case at the bottom, will sort that next time it's apart. TF 100 case
So if somewhat different than the Ryger we also can have a oil less top end with HCCI that could technically rev to approx 30,000 rpm.

Frits Overmars

30th December 2015, 20:08

So if somewhat different than the Ryger we also can have a oil less top end with HCCI that could technically rev to approx 30,000 rpm.
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I don't like repeating myself, but you are incredible Neil.
Did you use something like this?
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This way you can build your engine lower than the Ryger. I just wonder how you are going to fit the piston head. Screw it on?

EDIT: with your crank construction you could also build a nice compact 180° flat twin (not a boxer because the pistons won't be moving against each other) with truly inline bores. Do you think you can incorporate sufficient balance mass for a twin in that crank?

WilDun

6th January 2016, 10:05

Frits,
At Neil's place I bet it's all on now, ie getting it to actually work well instead of speculating about it! - way to go, suck it and see!
:yes:

ken seeber

6th January 2016, 14:38

Frits,
At Neil's place I bet it's all on now, ie getting it to actually work well instead of speculating about it! - way to go, suck it and see!
:yes:

Willy, I do believe things are quiet on the Hamilton home front cos Neil went down to the south island for hols or sabbatical, I'd say back by next week.
It's not risky down there is it, being Hooser territory?
The scary thing is what he might have dreamt up when he couldn't make anything for a couple of weeks.:facepalm::eek5::yes:

Hope your foundry dreams have been rekindled.

husaberg

6th January 2016, 15:08

Willy, I do believe things are quiet on the Hamilton home front cos Neil went down to the south island for hols or sabbatical, I'd say back by next week.
It's not risky down there is it, being Hooser territory?
The scary thing is what he might have dreamt up when he couldn't make anything for a couple of weeks.:facepalm::eek5::yes:

Hope your foundry dreams have been rekindled.

He called in for a couple of hours, While he was here I swear he build 2 engines from scratch using a chisel and a drill press.:msn-wink:

Ocean1

6th January 2016, 18:29

He called in for a couple of hours, While he was here I swear be build 2 engines from scratch using a chisel and a drill press.:msn-wink:

A powered drill press?

WilDun

6th January 2016, 20:55

Willy, I do believe things are quiet on the Hamilton home front cos Neil went down to the south island for hols or sabbatical,
Hope your foundry dreams have been rekindled.

Yeah, no doubt he'll arrive back with some new inspiration or other!
Not much going on here at the moment unfortunately - don't have the "bounce back" I used to have, but the embers are still burning!

jasonu

7th January 2016, 03:33

He called in for a couple of hours, While he was here I swear he build 2 engines from scratch using a chisel and a drill press.:msn-wink:

318612

10characters

WilDun

7th January 2016, 06:51

Unfortunately it's often only the 'make believe' people like MacGyver who get any recognition, not the ones who actually can! - and I'm sure that Husa is being sincere in what he says!
;)

husaberg

7th January 2016, 10:57

A powered drill press?
Yeah we have that mains ellecty here;)

10characters318612
Same mullet;)

Unfortunately it's often only the 'make believe' people like MacGyver who get any recognition, not the ones who actually can! - and I'm sure that Husa is being sincere in what he says!
;)
The Holywood version of Fletner would be Shorter I should have got him to clean my gutters as well.

WilDun

7th January 2016, 19:15

Frits Overmars

7th January 2016, 22:55

Flettner, Frits (and anyone else). At first sight, the Scotch Yoke arrangement for converting rotary motion to linear looks attractive, although it obviously has some major disadvantages for two strokes (eg maybe not enough dwell at BDC?) otherwise it would be in everyday use! Do you guys know any other disadvantages it may have?BDC dwell is not the problem, Will. You can design in as much dwell as you want, either at BDC or TDC.
318630
I think the main disadvantages, not just for two-strokes but in general, are sliding instead or rolling big end pin movement, and / or high bearing contact pressures.

In comparison, I love Flettner's crank-in-a-crank-setup. It'll be interesting to see which gear ratio he managed to fit in and whether his big end pin velocity is a sinoid.

WilDun

7th January 2016, 23:52

You can design in as much dwell as you want, either at BDC or TDC.

I think the main disadvantages, not just for two-strokes but in general, are sliding instead or rolling big end pin movement, and / or high bearing contact pressures.

In comparison, I love Flettner's crank-in-a-crank-setup.

Yes, I was talking about a straight slot of course - I was aware that the dwell could be changed to suit, but the sliding action would be taken care of by the crankpin running in a sliding bearing block (so not just line contact)
A plain big end bearing in a conventional conrod is also sliding on a film of oil without problems, but I can see that in a curved Scotch Crank slot such as in the picture, there might just be a few problems!

I mentioned way back that someone suggested to Doug Hele the possibility of using the geared crank arrangement such as Flettner is probably about to use, he replied that the forces involved might cause problems, (then his hands were tied by Triumph etc. and he couldn't do or say too much without their say so!).

But.......I'm quite sure Flettner won't be deterred by all this negative talk and he'll give it a go anyway! :yes:

husaberg

8th January 2016, 10:11

I have posted this build before but this is it all in one place.
http://www.bikernet.com/pages/Bikernet_Secret_Society_El_Supremo_Excelsior_Disco very.aspx

tjbw

8th January 2016, 12:35

I have posted this build before but this is it all in one place.
http://www.bikernet.com/pages/Bikernet_Secret_Society_El_Supremo_Excelsior_Disco very.aspx

Nice engine and nice frame, but not sure about that engine in that light frame.

Frits Overmars

8th January 2016, 22:42

Linear rod crank, no cams, no scotch yoke, just a crank within a crank. Each crank offset is 12.5mm, total stroke is 50mm. Not over hung, fully supported. Clicking sound is the rod touching the case at the bottom.Maybe it's the rod's way of asking for a bottom guide, so the top guide can be made sorter and the whole engine can become lower.

Frits Overmars

9th January 2016, 19:58

I love Flettner's crank-in-a-crank-setup. It'll be interesting to see which gear ratio he managed to fit in and whether his big end pin velocity is a sinoid.I must have been high, drunk or sleepy when I asked myself these questions. In order to achieve linear motion, both cranks must have equal strokes and contra-rotate with equal rpm. This will establish the gearing and guarantee pure sinusoidal stroke, velocity and acceleration profiles.

husaberg

9th January 2016, 20:03

Frits Overmars

9th January 2016, 20:37

When he gives you a decent drawing Frits, will you be able to put on your maths hat and work out the forces?A rough sketch will do for most of the forces. In principle the kinematics for the crank-in-crank are simpler than for a conventional crank with a con rod.
Balancing will be simpler as well, at least in theory, because it may not be so easy to find sufficient room for the balancing masses.
Calculating the stress on the gears will be a horse of a different colour...

Flettner

11th January 2016, 19:07

I must have been high, drunk or sleepy when I asked myself these questions. In order to achieve linear motion, both cranks must have equal strokes and contra-rotate with equal rpm. This will establish the gearing and guarantee pure sinoidal stroke, velocity and acceleration profiles.

Yes Frits, what do you know of this type of crank system? when you are not high or drunk, sure? Yes the ratio has to be 2 to 1 ie 20 teeth to 40 teeth to get the big end to scribe a straight line. Any wear and the rod will not track true, my biggest worry is the gear tooth longevity but we will see, it is soaked in oil. This assembly is pressed up like a normal crank but what a bugger to put together with that ring gear in the way! I have a better system that will be much easier to assemble next time and just as strong, perhaps better?

On the HCCI front I have come up with a drive system that can accelerate and deccelerate the small crank at the right time, not using oval gears or cams and pins. Ironicly I found a set of oval gears on a printing press down the west coast (NZ) at Shanty Town while away on my Holiday, well I think it was a pair as I couldn't see what it was driving. They look like trouble! I spent today mounting up the AG100 to a test bed with a 2.2KW motor mounted, a piece of old channel iron from the scrap yard. Will the head need cooling? so long as initial compression is low enough to not cause detonation, on the upward stroke (big piston), that would be hard to adjust to.

http://prozamet.pl/art_2008_3_08.pdf Gear design paper.

Or just buy some? https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjMw4jyqqHKAhUFUaYKHaF7DKsQFgg5MAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cunningham-ind.com%2Fellipt.htm&usg=AFQjCNEoqeLjtC-4OTWYMMK9yg0IGy0X0A

https://youtu.be/RuDSxrbx_AQ

perhaps an eliptical gear set is worth a look at?

Frits Overmars

11th January 2016, 23:41

Yes Frits, what do you know of this type of crank system? when you are not high or drunk, sure? Yes the ratio has to be 2 to 1 ie 20 teeth to 40 teeth to get the big end to scribe a straight line. Any wear and the rod will not track true, my biggest worry is the gear tooth longevity but we will see, it is soaked in oil. This assembly is pressed up like a normal crank but what a bugger to put together with that ring gear in the way! I have a better system that will be much easier to assemble next time and just as strong, perhaps better? Like I said, I like the linear crank system. If I'd seen it earlier, I would have tried to convince Ryger to use it instead of what he has now
(don't ask, I can't tell, but I like yours better). I've never seen it applied in a real engine though. Anybody?

On the HCCI front I have come up with a drive system that can accelerate and deccelerate the small crank at the right time, not using oval gears or cams and pins.... Will the head need cooling? so long as initial compression is low enough to not cause detonation, on the upward stroke (big piston), that would be hard to adjust to.... perhaps an eliptical gear set is worth a look at?I think the head will need cooling; otherwise it will just get hotter and hotter and have a varying influence on the HCCI compression requirement.
But since HCCI does not put a lot of heat into the head, maybe you can get away with oil circulation.

That drive for your little HCCI-crankshaft that we talked about this morning: it will work though I'm not sure whether you can achieve the desired rate of rpm fluctuation with both crankshafts geared 1 to 1. I still think non-circular gears are simpler to implement and they offer a far greater range of fluctuation.
But I would not try to make them myself if I were you; you've got enough on your plate as it is and surely something suitable must be readily available somewhere.

speedpro

12th January 2016, 07:43

What about a toothed belt on pulleys with an offset mounting boss? Could work at lower revs but having the belt whipping back and forth????

speedpro

12th January 2016, 07:45

What about a toothed belt on pulleys with an offset mounting boss? Could work at lower revs but having the belt whipping back and forth???? Could be simple to alter the offset with easily machined inserts

Flettner

12th January 2016, 08:02

I guess I did mean water cooling, some form of cooling will be nessasary, fins for now might do.

WilDun

12th January 2016, 11:18

Neil,
If you did try to cut elliptical gears (on the gear shaper of course) would you also require an elliptical cutter and some method of changing the rotational speed between the cutter and gear blank being cut? also the centre distances between the gears (oh, maybe not!) - but it all sounds like a pretty expensive exercise! - just buy some I reckon!

speedpro

12th January 2016, 11:45

He's probably already made a special tool to do it using old washing machine parts and brush cutter conrods

Grumph

12th January 2016, 12:09

He's probably already made a special tool to do it using old washing machine parts and brush cutter conrods

hey, nothing wrong with brush cutter conrods...

I know you can programme a CNC to cut cams so is it possible to gearcut an elliptical path on a 5 axis ? Just asking...

ken seeber

12th January 2016, 12:17

Elliptical gears, crazy gears, any gears.
Go http://www.gearotic.com/ .... the world is your oyster. Then you could make any of the unusual designs in https://grabcad.com/library/most-liked/tag/mechanism?page=2&per_page=100
I would think though one would need to have them cut with a CNC wire cutter as the teeth profile changes along the periphery of the gears, making a regular tooth form cutter unsuitable.

Flettner

12th January 2016, 19:50

Well, more interesting stuff ( I think ) I'm downloading a short film on "HCCI in action"
Got the AG100 running tonight, will run on it's own.
Interesting discoveries
My little piston is just too crude with one cast iron ring with too much blow by. I can see it emitting out the top oil fill hole. So a large squirt of oil is needed to seal things up before the fuel is applied. Will have to make a dual steel ring piston.
Second interesting thing, timing is very critical, too advanced and it will knock badly and hardly run. Small piston needs to arrive at the right place for combustion much more accurately, quicker.
And I think you will agree the fueling is a bit hit and miss:dodge:

Result My test bed is just too crude, but it does run, watch the video, I'll post it when it's loaded.

https://youtu.be/2L8xH8U7IWQ

Frits Overmars

13th January 2016, 01:56

... you could make any of the unusual designs in https://grabcad.com/library/most-liked/tag/mechanism?page=2&per_page=100 Ken, why serve up a link that jumps to page 100 when the candy (Flettners linear crank mechanism) is on page 1? Don't you like us?:msn-wink:
http://grabcad.com/library/hypocyclic-engine-mechanism-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbFuw7mY74 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbFuw7mY74)

lohring

13th January 2016, 02:05

A very similar mechanism with more of a snap motion:
https://grabcad.com/library/jensen-ring-gear-slider-1

Lohring Miller

Frits Overmars

13th January 2016, 02:17

My little piston is just too crude with one cast iron ring with too much blow by. I can see it emitting out the top oil fill hole. So a large squirt of oil is needed to seal things up before the fuel is applied. Will have to make a dual steel ring piston.Didn't mummy tell you 'never use a short stroke in a two-stroke'? :msn-wink:
I can understand that you don't want to clutter up the combustion chamber with a deep narrow hole that cannot be effectively scavenged. But if your compression crank runs at twice the rpm of your labour crank, that hole will be flush at BDC, largely solving the scavenging problem, so maybe you can divert a little from your 30,5 mm bore x 8 mm stroke. A smaller bore will reduce the ring circumference and allow for a tighter piston clearance.
Having said this, I've learned that you have good reasons for everything you do, so don't pay too much attention to my brain eruptions. I just like to think along while you are doing all the work :p.

In case you are interested in smaller bore pistons, Neil Lickfold might be your man. He may even be able to supply you with RSP material.

Flettner

13th January 2016, 08:21

Now if we just add some ports to the small piston and have it introduce rich fuel air (only as the main piston is on the way up ie only every second stroke of the small piston) and tie this to a linear rod (crank within a crank system) we can have a resonably clean engine, not using EFI but still using conventional cylinders all within a standard crank case. Add to that the Ryger breathing and you might have an interesting outcome. Kind of going backwards throwing out the electronics:laugh: I'm sure we could fit a computer in somewhere, perhaps belt timing control. What was I thinking, also cylinder height control (like the FOS), about as far from KISS as I can think.

Frits Overmars

13th January 2016, 09:23

Now if we just add some ports to the small piston and have it introduce rich fuel air (only as the main piston is on the way up ie only every second stroke of the small piston) and tie this to a linear rod (crank within a crank system) we can have a resonably clean engine, not using EFI How would you feed that small piston with fuel only every second stroke without EFI?
With HCCI all the fuel will be burned as long as there is enough air around. But I fear that your cloud of rich mixture won't have time to spread, so a lot of fuel and a lot of air in the combustion chamber will remain unused.

..about as far from KISS as I can think.I shudder to think of what you may come up with next. A desmodromic foul-stroke? :facepalm:

Flettner

13th January 2016, 10:53

How would you feed that small piston with fuel only every second stroke without EFI?
With HCCI all the fuel will be burned as long as there is enough air around. But I fear that your cloud of rich mixture won't have time to spread, so a lot of fuel and a lot of air in the combustion chamber will remain unused.

I shudder to think of what you may come up with next. A desmodromic foul-stroke? :facepalm:

Never liked them (desmo) but I did like their pull rods (on their mopeds)

Yes, I know you are right, just thinking of other ideas that might turn into somthing else, you know. ;)

Ordered some oval gears, hardened teeth too. 2 to 1 ratio. That should speed things up a little. I do like the small offset (4mm) on the 30.5mm piston's crankshaft. If I speed this piston up at the right time that will help. Still going to run through the 2 to 1 step up as well.

WilDun

13th January 2016, 12:36

This thread is going way off topic now! but now it's taking off, who cares.
It's becoming more and more interesting every time I look in - sort of becoming a rival to the ESE thread! maybe we should change it's name to " The Experimental Bucket Foundry"!

I have always been intrigued by that crank design and now it looks that I might actually see it in action! - then we'll see If Doug Hele perhaps miscalculated - no amount of calculation will beat actually trying it!

:niceone:

husaberg

13th January 2016, 16:13

Never liked them (desmo) but I did like their pull rods (on their mopeds)

Yes, I know you are right, just thinking of other ideas that might turn into somthing else, you know. ;)

Ordered some oval gears, hardened teeth too. 2 to 1 ratio. That should speed things up a little. I do like the small offset (4mm) on the 30.5mm piston's crankshaft. If I speed this piston up at the right time that will help. Still going to run through the 2 to 1 step up as well.

Pulls rods like a NSU?
318753

Flettner

13th January 2016, 17:18

Pulls rods like a NSU?
318753

No, some rockers were under the under the cam (in the case) with thin rods connected to more rockers pulling down on the valves, odd ball, not like our sane stuff here.

That NSU system, how does it adjust for heat? As the engine heats up and expands so must the push / pull arms or will overload the bearings. Clearly I'm missing somthing?

Thank you for your time last week Glen, cylinder is sitting on my computer desk now, waiting for the rest of it so we can make some.

Flettner

13th January 2016, 17:26

This thread is going way off topic now! but now it's taking off, who cares.
It's becoming more and more interesting every time I look in - sort of becoming a rival to the ESE thread! maybe we should change it's name to " The Experimental Bucket Foundry"!

I can't seem to cope with things that go to plan:facepalm:

Although I did spend today over at Matamata airport testing my gyro's rotor pre rotator (300 rpm, will fly at approx 400 rpm) using a tapered cone clutch, that worked to plan (if there ever was one). She's good to go FAB. Fly that home made engine in a few weeks:yes:
Can't wait!

husaberg

13th January 2016, 17:30

No, some rockers were under the under the cam (in the case) with thin rods connected to more rockers pulling down on the valves, odd ball, not like our sane stuff here.

That NSU system, how does it adjust for heat? As the engine heats up and expands so must the push / pull arms or will overload the bearings. Clearly I'm missing somthing?

Thank you for your time last week cylinder is sitting on my computer desk now, waiting for the rest of it so we can make some.

No idea, but they were very reliable,set up that was used for a works racer as well.
I have a vauge idea some of the early NSU car engines used the same set up. I think it was written in a article I read the other day about the Muinch.
318761318762

I enjoyed finally meeting you and Mrs Neil, ps thanks for cleaning my gutters. Plus rebuilding my car engine:innocent:

Motorcycles
This Ultramax camshaft drive system was first applied to the motorcycles of NSU, the NSU Max NSU Max 300, NSU Supermax, SuperFox NSU, NSU Maxi, NSU Sportmax, Geländemax NSU and NSU Maxima scooter 175 cc (1960).
From 1952 to 1963, approximately 160,000 copies made.

Cars
From 1958 the first cars, the NSU Prinz I to III, was equipped with this camshaft drive system. From 1959 the NSU Sport Prinz 1961 and the NSU Prinz 4, produced till 1973: a total of 740,000 cars.

A total of approximately 900,000 engines were made with this unique NSU Ultramax system.
http://www.nsu4.nl/english/e1ultramaxcamshaftsystem.html

Funny enough my father has two Ducati's both of them are two stroke.
I think they are 80cc I have never seen any others like them in NZ.
One he has had since he was an apprentice, it has home made Earles forks (as was the fashion in the 50's.)
Neither of them are this pretty.

http://photos.ducati.net/Ducati/Museum-Ducati-Photos-Brochures/Museums-Swap-Meets-and/VintageMotos-Museum-Denver/i-Ph3FW5p/3/L/DSC_0104-L.jpg

husaberg

13th January 2016, 17:54

Is this it?
Ducati Cucciolo

WilDun

13th January 2016, 18:20

Funny enough my father has two Ducati's both of them are two stroke.
I think they are 80cc I have never seen any others like them in NZ.

The "Munch" caused quite a stir when it came out with it's NSU car engine but it didn't take the Japs long to make it look a bit old fashioned! I remember Friedel Munch himself later admitting that he wasn't really much of a businessman and preferred 'hands on' stuff in the workshop, as opposed to in working in an office!

I knew a cow cocky in Raglan way back in 1966 - 67 had a small Ducati farm bike which looked a little like the one you pictured, except that it had a different tank, cooling fan with a cylinder shroud, also a high level exhaust - I wouldn't be surprised if it was an adaption of that same model. - good little bike, never missed a beat!
That was back in the days when they were trying to promote the Kawasaki powered "Mountain Goat" - also the 9E Villiers powered 'Gnat' three wheeler as farm vehicles (Kart style with tiller steering, which you sat in rather than on).
318768318767
Must say the Ducati was way ahead for the time! but the Kiwis did make a good effort!

I believe that this was the mountain Goat prototype - the one I posted before may have been an actual Suzuki - can't be sure, but the Mountain Goat is a long way from the good old Mudbug!
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Flettner

13th January 2016, 18:35

Is this it?
Ducati Cucciolo

Yes thats the one, Gerbalgronk has one. You can see the beginnings of Desmo right there:lol:
I myself had a Zundapp moped untill it was stolen from my storage cow shed, or did it just escape to a better place. It's probably in Brazil now hiding out till the war is over.

husaberg

13th January 2016, 18:51

The "Munch" caused quite a stir when it came out with it's NSU car engine but it didn't take the Japs long to make it look a bit old fashioned! I remember Friedel Munch himself later admitting that he wasn't really much of a businessman and preferred 'hands on' stuff in the workshop, as opposed to in working in an office!

I knew a cow cocky in Raglan way back in 1966 - 67 had a small Ducati farm bike which looked a little like the one you pictured, except that it had a different tank, cooling fan with a cylinder shroud, also a high level exhaust - I wouldn't be surprised if it was an adaption of that same model. - good little bike, never missed a beat!
That was back in the days when they were trying to promote the Kawasaki powered "Mountain Goat" - also the 9E Villiers powered 'Gnat' (Kart style with tiller steering, which you sat in rather than on) three wheeler as farm vehicles.
318768318767
Must say the Ducati was way ahead for the time! but the Kiwis did make a good effort!

He used to have one of those mountain goats as well but a Kawaski engine one.
Pretty sure he might still have the wheels complete with the mini tractor tyres, they were one of the earliest disk braked bikes to boot.
I remember having a go on a Gnat as a kid, I think it had a Honda stationary engine though.
He has a RV90 in the shed (Orange)

I have a road test on the Farmebike/mountain Goat I will post it when I trip over it.

husaberg

13th January 2016, 18:53

Yes thats the one, Gerbalgronk has one. You can see the beginnings of Desmo right there:lol:
I myself had a Zundapp moped untill it was stolen from my storage cow shed, or did it just escape to a better place. It's probably in Brazil now hiding out till the war is over.

Yowling has a neat goped engine... ,Maybe he will post the pic again.

Grumph

13th January 2016, 19:15

That NSU system, how does it adjust for heat? As the engine heats up and expands so must the push / pull arms or will overload the bearings. Clearly I'm missing somthing?

Two eccentrics top and bottom coupled by links resembling con rods - phased at 90 degrees.
"the problem of overcoming differences in thermal expansion between the links and the cylinder is met by providing a member between the two shafts which maintains them at the same center-distance as the links, the variation in timing thus caused being negligible"

now you know as much as i do - and that was written by one of the best technical writers ever....

My brother had a Sport Max 250 NSU and i remember we looked at the setup, found it ran at more clearance in the "conrod" bores than it should but was silent and working well - so buttoned it up and left it alone....

I think Bentley used the same system in one of the big motors in the 20's.

ken seeber

13th January 2016, 20:10

[QUOTE=Frits Overmars;1130937466]Ken, why serve up a link that jumps to page 100 when the candy (Flettners linear crank mechanism) is on page 1? Don't you like us?:msn-wink:

You're right Frits. I must have saved the GCAD as a favourite when on P100. Incredible range of mechanisms. Actually I have to thank Hoosa for getting me on to this in the early days of Ryger awareness when we were all trying to understand how it works. Probably still don't know, but it sounds like it won't be long.

Wonder though, whether the friction of the gears and pins is more or less than a normal crank & rod and the resultant piston side thrust. It certainly offers compactness PLUS the all important linear motion.

Grumph, you're right too re the NSU centre distance control link.

Don't you like us? What a question Frits? ESE and Foundry are some of the best things in years for me. Keeps us thinking, meeting new people, good people, honest, open, 2 strokes etc....great. Yep, I do like you all. :hug:

WilDun

13th January 2016, 21:37

Yowling has a neat goped engine... ,Maybe he will post the pic again.

I think from memory that Yow Ling's engine is the same as the one I have - it's the Italian designed two stroke Mini Motor (Mini Motore) but made under licence in England by Trojan and fits on the back of a bike. - capable of about 25 - 30 kph.
I'm told it was a competitor to the four stroke Ducati Cucciolo.

BTW All this stuff is just a fill in during a lull in Flettner's stuff - we haven't got entirely off track!

husaberg

13th January 2016, 21:44

I think from memory that Yow Ling's engine is the same as the one I have - it's the Italian designed two stroke Mini Motor (Mini Motore) but made under licence in England by Trojan and fits on the back of a bike. - capable of about 25 - 30 kph.
I'm told it was a competitor to the four stroke Ducati Cucciolo.

UPDATE - not entirely sure that the picture I posted was of a "mountain Goat" - will check it out.
Pretty sure they where originally called the farm bike and later the called mountain goat, my fathers frame was square tube (I think) but same basic design, although I think it had a swing arm and I can't recall it having the rear tow ball (but it has been years)

Here you go.

The full story.
http://pukeariki.com/Learning-Research/Taranaki-Research-Centre/Taranaki-Stories/Taranaki-Story/id/519/title/johnny-callender-and-the-mountain-goat

http://tatatm.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/mount-goat.jpg.w300h225.jpg

One of the members of my family has a duzgo
Same idea a cheap farm vehicle as there was nothing suitable available but destroyed by the same bureaucrats, only it was a car version.
it had two gearboxs mounted back to back for 13 forward gears with a supper super low of putting both into reverse, they had a 16 HP Kohler but most have a Honda V twin now.
They were made in the late 70's early 80's in one of most country towns of the West Coast Whataroa.
He made about 20 or so before he got shut down as they said he would have to comply with the new Vehicle rules, even though they were made out of recycled bits and bobs.
The wheels are motorbike as are the tyres with welded flat metal spokes.

Now Ken if you would whip down to Bunbury way and get a few photos of the double Chamberlin's in that ag museum down around there somewhere (it might have been Albany?)

Frits Overmars

14th January 2016, 01:36

I mentioned way back that someone suggested to Doug Hele the possibility of using the geared crank arrangement such as Flettner is probably about to use.Can you dig up any more information on Doug Hele and linear motion cranks Will? I'd love to read about any issues without running into them myself.

This thread is going way off topic now!As this happens with every thread I participate in, I wonder whose fault that could be...:scratch:

That NSU system, how does it adjust for heat? As the engine heats up and expands so must the push / pull arms or will overload the bearings.the dark push-pull rods drive the overhead camshaft http://www.nsu4.nl/english/e1ultramaxcamshaftsystem.html
The light-coloured rod keeps the distance between crankshaft and camshaft under control.
318781

EDIT: I see that Grumph beat me to it.

Wonder though, whether the friction of the gears and pins is more or less than a normal crank & rod and the resultant piston side thrust.Gears are supposed to perform a rolling-only motion but friction caused by piston side thrust is far from negligible, especially with a short con rod like the Ryger's.
It's one of the reasons I love Flettners crank-within-crank system.

it had two gearboxes mounted back to back for 13 forward gears4 x 3 (like in the first Kreidler GP racers) = 12
6 x 2 (like in the later Kreidler GP racers) = 12
How on earth can anyone arrive at 13?

gsxr

14th January 2016, 02:32

it had two gearboxes mounted back to back for 13 forward gears with a supper super low of putting both into reverse, they had a 16

Off topic on topic

Many years ago i had a beach buggy on aircraft tyres 1938 V8 side valve motor.
2 humber gearboxes reversed with a push button overdrive between them.
Gave an effective 20 forward and 5 reverse if requirded

Grumph

14th January 2016, 05:29

One of the members of my family has a duzgo
Same idea a cheap farm vehicle as there was nothing suitable available but destroyed by the same bureaucrats, only it was a car version.
it had two gearboxs mounted back to back for 13 forward gears with a supper super low of putting both into reverse, they had a 16 HP Kohler but most have a Honda V twin now.
They were made in the late 70's early 80's in one of most country towns of the West Coast Whataroa.
He made about 20 or so before he got shut down as they said he would have to comply with the new Vehicle rules, even though they were made out of recycled bits and bobs.
The wheels are motorbike as are the tyres with welded flat metal spokes.

One of the two brothers involved with this is Kevin Giles of KG Motorcycles in ChCh. He has a running Duzgo and most of the promo literature. Absolutely butt ugly things they are...
As for the 13 gears, can I suggest that as Whataroa was a sawmill town deep in feral Westland, they may well have run out of fingers and toes to count the gears on....

F5 Dave

14th January 2016, 06:49

And neutral isn't really a gear.

WilDun

14th January 2016, 07:26

Can you dig up any more information on Doug Hele and linear motion cranks Will? I'd love to read about any issues without running into them myself.
As this happens with every thread I participate in, I wonder whose fault that could be...:scratch:

I'm sorry Frits, I did try to find that article about Doug Hele quite a few times but no joy. As I recall it was just in answer to a reporter's question asking about whether or not it would be feasible for production etc. and didn't go into any real detail. Probably from the 'Motorcycle', 'Motorcycling' or 'Motorcycle News' mags of the sixties.

Don't think there is any "fault" involved with us wandering off topic now and then, just so long as we realise that and always wander back again - if there is any of us at fault, then of course I would be involved! but the thread hums along quite well and even though we don't hear a lot from Yow Ling these days I guess he is happy enough with how it's going!

tjbw

14th January 2016, 09:46

...

Gears are supposed to perform a rolling-only motion but friction caused by piston side thrust is far from negligible, especially with a short con rod like the Ryger's.
It's one of the reasons I love Flettners crank-within-crank system.

...

To reduce the friction due to a 90mm rod, why not use a 110mm rod with a 20mm spacer between crankcase and cylinder/valve block?

Flettner

14th January 2016, 13:03

Mazda Rotary have a similar but different gear system in their rotor housings / side case to control the motion of the rotor. Those gears don't give trouble as I understand. Granted this crank within a crank system may be a little harder on the gear set.
Big advantage is the rod and bigend weigh (technical term) bugger all, no centrifugal loads on the big end or rod. Centrifugal load on a bigend bearing is far more damaging than combustion load, harder you rev the worse it gets.
A longer rod is just heavier.

WilDun

14th January 2016, 13:16

Flettner

14th January 2016, 13:45

I think that maybe gears use forces something similar to rolling motion when idling, but when real force is applied (eg. when transmitting power) it is as much pure sliding motion (between teeth) as it is with piston side thrust, except that the forces are now concentrated on a very small area but are more easily lubricated by increased availability of pure oil. - then, there's the cost - high quality steel, hardened and ground gears (as these will need to be) don't come cheap!
Nobody seems at all sure what the result of this theoretical arrangement will be (I for one can't remember ever seeing it used before)

Sorry to sound like a 'dampener with a wet blanket' ...but everything needs to be considered! and if anyone is really going to find out, then no doubt it will be Flettner !

No, well designed gears are rolling contact, heavy load still rolling contact unless the tooth deforms. So it just means that the gear needs to be robust enough not to deform a significant amount. Trouble is in this gear set there is not much room. I have made the gear set 15mm wide in an effort to reduce tooth deflection.
Who knows? I will just have to try and see. It's all there now although I would like to chage the crank flyweels to be bigger (balance reasons) and a better attchment system, at the moment it's a bugger to put together, as I said.

So if the rod is made from 7075 alloy what coating will be suitable to slide in the under piston bushing? Perhaps hard anodise against a carbon lined bushing? Minimal friction, hard chrome would be good but we can't do that in NZ (hard chrome on to alloy). Perhaps nikasil?

Grumph

14th January 2016, 14:30

So if the rod is made from 7075 alloy what coating will be suitable to slide in the under piston bushing? Perhaps hard anodise against a carbon lined bushing? Minimal friction, hard chrome would be good but we can't do that in NZ (hard chrome on to alloy). Perhaps nikasil?

What sort of temps are you expecting? I've used a Moly loaded nylon base bush for several applications. NZ made - Husa can probably find it.
From memory, permanent deflection around 250C and around 100kg if it's well supported. Got some here but can't find what data I had.

Flettner

14th January 2016, 14:51

Sooo, made some more adjustments to the HCCI engine, I'm still shaking, how do you stop a runaway compression ignition engine? stop the fuel, no, the crank case is full of fuel oil! Shut off the air? No the exhaust without a pipe on can suck air back in but it will slow the run away. In answer to you question Frits yes it DOES rev and it was only on twostroke OIL.
Thankfully it run out of oil before it exploded. :shit:

Sketchy_Racer

14th January 2016, 14:54

Now I wish you had the video running for that run, Neil!

Do you have any way of throttling the motor? Or once it starts it all on it own?

WilDun

14th January 2016, 15:05

No, well designed gears are rolling contact, heavy load still rolling contact unless the tooth deforms. So it just means that the gear needs to be robust enough not to deform a significant amount.

Well, we live and learn! - please ignore my above statement!
I know that helical gears have sliding forces but thought that similar things would happen with straight cut gears (to a lesser degree)!

WilDun

14th January 2016, 15:16

How do you stop a runaway compression ignition engine? stop the fuel, no, the crank case is full of fuel oil! Shut off the air? No the exhaust without a pipe on can suck air back in but it will slow the run away. In answer to you question Frits yes it DOES rev and it was only on twostroke OIL.
Thankfully it run out of oil before it exploded. :shit:

Shutoff valve on exhaust and flood it with CO2?? :)

Flettner

14th January 2016, 15:32

Shutoff valve on exhaust and flood it with CO2?? :)

Yes, some more thought will need to be applied, perhaps it will need some throttling as well as fuel. It will need an exhaust:laugh:
Poor little AG100.
Is it a 100cc or do we need to add the small piston displacement as well? Being that the small piston is at it's TDC when the big piston is at it's BDC I think we can ignor the little piston's displacement. Correct? Or is this a rule bender?

husaberg

14th January 2016, 16:22

One of the two brothers involved with this is Kevin Giles of KG Motorcycles in ChCh. He has a running Duzgo and most of the promo literature. Absolutely butt ugly things they are...
As for the 13 gears, can I suggest that as Whataroa was a sawmill town deep in feral Westland, they may well have run out of fingers and toes to count the gears on....
Its still a town, only the mill has gone. It has a shop, a garage, a pub,a school, plus a 9 hole golf course. Plus once a year a few White herrons
You say ugly, I say quirky..........Far better looking than a Treka or a CF bedford.
Rodney Giles last I heard was on a lemon farm in Akaroa, he has restored (well basically remade) quite a few.
Rodney could fix or make just about anything much like an old school blacksmith.One of his Alan cousins was the forman at the local foundry now he has the landmower shop in town. he actually won a national kart title about
two years ago he would have to be well into his late fifties.

And neutral isn't really a gear.

4 x 3 (like in the first Kreidler GP racers) = 12
6 x 2 (like in the later Kreidler GP racers) = 12
How on earth can anyone arrive at 13?
One gearbox is three speed the other one is 4 speed = 12 forward gears as you would expect plus a super low crawler by putting both in reverse. Thus 13 forward gears.
In practice you drive it like a Road ranger gearbox. only it has two levers rather than a button.

it had two gearboxes mounted back to back for 13 forward gears with a supper super low of putting both into reverse, they had a 16
Off topic on topic
Many years ago i had a beach buggy on aircraft tyres 1938 V8 side valve motor.
2 humber gearboxes reversed with a push button overdrive between them.
Gave an effective 20 forward and 5 reverse if requirded
Correct you can have a virtual chocolate fish.

ken seeber

14th January 2016, 17:45

Runaway engines, farm vehicles of sorts, 2 foundry pages per day, etc..... it's all go in kiwiland. :niceone:
In Oz west coast, there are things happening also, albeit a pace that is far less than 10% of Fletto though.
After lots of measurements, layout drawings and head scratching I decided that I had to rebore the water jacket a bit more. Done. Now back to the cylinder to do the boring and the outside diameter & O ring grooves to suit the water jacket , then off to the plater. After that the crankcase.
318796

While I'm here, we're helping a dude over here with an inertia dyno. For the flywheel overrunning issue, we are going to use a relatively available sprag clutch 40*80*22 BB-40-K, Keyed on ID and OD, tons of torque capacity and was around A$110

318801

MikeT1

14th January 2016, 18:51

Flettner

14th January 2016, 19:01

Grumph

14th January 2016, 19:29

[QUOTE=Flettner;1130937595]No, some rockers were under the under the cam (in the case) with thin rods connected to more rockers pulling down on the valves, odd ball, not like our sane stuff here.

Do you have any illustrations of the rockers, I need to find a way of operating the valves in the same direction as the pushrod moves, and are not happy with any of the ideas I have come up with so far.

There was a desmo conversion for the pushrod 500 Velocette which used the pushrods to pull as well as push. Worth looking at for a steam valving setup.
I don't have anything on it on line but it was well publicised so should be worth a google.

Husa - just heard today that KG has sold everything up. Apparently all the s### will appear in parcels on trademe in due course of time. There's ChCh's last wrecker in premises gone. 2 or 3 working from home on line now only.

Flettner

14th January 2016, 19:37

What sort of temps are you expecting? I've used a Moly loaded nylon base bush for several applications. NZ made - Husa can probably find it.
From memory, permanent deflection around 250C and around 100kg if it's well supported. Got some here but can't find what data I had.

What material would you run against it? I imagine It would need to be hard. Is it abrasive to anodised surfaces

Yow Ling

14th January 2016, 20:28

Frits Overmars

14th January 2016, 20:41

if the rod is made from 7075 alloy what coating will be suitable to slide in the under piston bushing? Perhaps hard anodise against a carbon lined bushing? Minimal friction, hard chrome would be good but we can't do that in NZ (hard chrome on to alloy). Perhaps nikasil?I cannot imagine that no-one in the whole of NZ does hard chrome; it should be easier than nikasil. I'm not the specialist in this field, but I remember that the prototypes of our MB40 model engines, with sleeveless alloy cylinders, were hard chromed in a couple of aquariums in the basement of one of the builders (to be fair I must add that when he was not occupied with those engines, he was a chemist professor).

Poor little AG100. Is it a 100cc or do we need to add the small piston displacement as well? Being that the small piston is at it's TDC when the big piston is at it's BDC I think we can ignore the little piston's displacement. Correct? Or is this a rule bender?I think it's correct. In my book cylinder capacity is maximum volume minus minimum volume. That leaves the question: is maximum volume reached at BDC?
In your present setup it will be, but if you re-phase the crankshafts, it has to be re-established.
If I can find the time I'll cock up some program that will add the volume displaced by the big piston and the volume displaced by the small piston per crank degree, and that will have an option for adapting the bore, stroke, gearing and phasing of both crankshafts.

WilDun

14th January 2016, 20:48

Yes same thing, Trojan Mini Motor, but for ease of use my Batavus GoGo is way better
Got any pics? (of both).
My mini motor is a motor only and could have actually been used in some other setup, but I did have one long ago (my first "motorcycle") - I bought the present one with a Villiers 8e engine and found it in a pile of other "junk" which came with it.

WilDun

14th January 2016, 20:57

What material would you run against it? I imagine It would need to be hard. Is it abrasive to anodised surfaces

If it was copper plated first, then it might take the hard chrome, but then you could try a hard chromed brass bushing, Model aircraft cylinders used to be made with hard chromed brass liners.
How about just a bronze bush with labryrinth sealing? - after all there won't be much side force to worry about.

WilDun

14th January 2016, 21:32

No, well designed gears are rolling contact, heavy load still rolling contact unless the tooth deforms.

Been checking out the interaction between involute gears and I can now see what you mean about rolling contact - I do see that I can still learn something even if my brain is shrinking - whether I'll remember that tomorrow, I dunno! :laugh:

Flettner

14th January 2016, 21:40

If it was copper plated first, then it might take the hard chrome, but then you could try a hard chromed brass bushing, Model aircraft cylinders used to be made with hard chromed brass liners.
How about just a bronze bush with labryrinth sealing? - after all there won't be much side force to worry about.

I looked into all that, copper plate first is just show chrome, no use. Hard chrome must go straight on to the alloy using hydrfluric as an etch. Not nice stuff. Too difficult to use a brass sleeve (on the rod).

If I could get hard chrome on the 7075 rod and run it against a carbon lined bush that would have to be the most frictionless system there is?

Frits, you take the piss, this is New Zealand, no hard chroming onto aluminium, here:facepalm:

I've been thinking about the HCCI engine again, one suggestion (on another forum) is to use an exhaust gate (valve) to throttle the exhaust not the inlet, leaving the inlet open still. Put the carb back on and just move the needle up and down (no throttle piston) ??? See what happens I guess.

eldog

14th January 2016, 21:54

If it was copper plated first, then it might take the hard chrome
Nickel plate? Otahuhu Hard Chrome?
Hardchromers are becoming rarer and rarer, too much from China:no:

Good old Alli-Bronze?
I suppose it's too fast and high a load for those self oiling/Sintered parts

thinking out side the square? I could be completely wrong:facepalm:

Frits Overmars

15th January 2016, 01:30

If it was copper plated first, then it might take the hard chrome, but then you could try a hard chromed brass bushing, Model aircraft cylinders used to be made with hard chromed brass liners.
How about just a bronze bush with labryrinth sealing? - after all there won't be much side force to worry about.The hard chromed brass liners were succeeded by hard chromed alu liners and then the MB40 came along with linerless chromed bores (guilty, your Honor).
Labyrinth sealing may work but stationary piston rings around the rod have proven to work too.

Nickel plate? Otahuhu Hard Chrome?Nickel is too soft. That's why they throw in sand and call it nikasil.

Is it a 100cc or do we need to add the small piston displacement as well? Being that the small piston is at it's TDC when the big piston is at it's BDC I think we can ignor the little piston's displacement.Here's something for you to play with Neil. Not sure if it will run on your computer though; it prefers Windows 98 (maybe XP as well) and doesn't like 64bit machines. 318804

EDIT: if you really want to see the effects, select the dimensions of the small crankshaft and piston such that it gives about half the cubic capacity of the big crank & piston, and then play a little with the gearing and the phasing.

Grumph

15th January 2016, 05:28

I looked into all that, copper plate first is just show chrome, no use. Hard chrome must go straight on to the alloy using hydrfluric as an etch. Not nice stuff. Too difficult to use a brass sleeve (on the rod).

If I could get hard chrome on the 7075 rod and run it against a carbon lined bush that would have to be the most frictionless system there is?

Frits, you take the piss, this is New Zealand, no hard chroming onto aluminium, here:facepalm:

Give Steve Winteringham in Invercargill a call. Classic chrome o3 218 3228 I know he does hard chrome. He's a racer too so likely to be sympathetic.
Nicasil on the rod may be a problem - everyone's set up to do it in bores not on the OD...

The moly filled nylon bushes are non abrasive, I'd think simply polished 7075 would be fine to run against.

Throttling...ha, my one experience of a runaway motor - caused by flaking plating on the plugs - was fun to look back on. We tried to choke it to death by squeezing the airbox rubbers but it only stopped when it emptied the float bowls. In your case it's obviously hot enough to vapourise any oil and use it as fuel - Mr Diesel would be proud. It's either shut off anything which it can use as fuel or stop the air supply completely - which may not be easy....

eldog

15th January 2016, 06:33

Nickel is too soft. That's why they throw in sand and call it nikasil..

Induction hardened it. Had some bushes recently induction hardened on inside bore only-tricky Japs

Flettner

15th January 2016, 08:28

The hard chromed brass liners were succeeded by hard chromed alu liners and then the MB40 came along with linerless chromed bores (guilty, your Honor).
Labyrinth sealing may work but stationary piston rings around the rod have proven to work too.

Nickel is too soft. That's why they throw in sand and call it nikasil.

Here's something for you to play with Neil. Not sure if it will run on your computer though; it prefers Windows 98 (maybe XP as well) and doesn't like 64bit machines. 318804

EDIT: if you really want to see the effects, select the dimensions of the small crankshaft and piston such that it gives about half the cubic capacity of the big crank & piston, and then play a little with the gearing and the phasing.

Thank you, thats a hard case program. I'll throw some numbers at it.
If I get a chance today I'll make the above mentioned changes and have another go at the HCCI engine, video this time. I would be nice to have some control:sweatdrop

speedpro

15th January 2016, 08:33

Frits Overmars

15th January 2016, 09:28

The moly filled nylon bushes are non abrasive, I'd think simply polished 7075 would be fine to run against.Except that the rod will move at incredible speeds and be hot as well. Teflon would not survive there; anything with nylon in it won't stand a chance in hell.

Thank you, thats a hard case program. I'll throw some numbers at it.So you got it running? Good, then I'll start with the niceties: you'll be able to enter exhaust timing, temperature and pressure of the cylinder contents at exhaust closure (I'll add default values in case you haven't got a clue) and it will spit out pressure and temperature graphs and lists. May take a while though.

tjbw

15th January 2016, 09:36

Run it in compatibility mode

I tried XP SP3 compatibility without success, but that was on W10 64 bit

Grumph

15th January 2016, 11:29

Except that the rod will move at incredible speeds and be hot as well. Teflon would not survive there; anything with nylon in it won't stand a chance in hell.

Fair enough - I did ask for an estimate of temps...Looks like carbon remains as the best answer. I'm aware of it's load and temp properties - automotive clutch release thrust bearings as an example. But what does it run against best ?

Flettner

15th January 2016, 12:31

Except that the rod will move at incredible speeds and be hot as well. Teflon would not survive there; anything with nylon in it won't stand a chance in hell.

So you got it running? Good, then I'll start with the niceties: you'll be able to enter exhaust timing, temperature and pressure of the cylinder contents at exhaust closure (I'll add default values in case you haven't got a clue) and it will spit out pressure and temperature graphs and lists. May take a while though.

Hey, you got me at "haven't got a clue"

Thank you for your help, I'll need every bit.

Flettner

15th January 2016, 12:40

Fair enough - I did ask for an estimate of temps...Looks like carbon remains as the best answer. I'm aware of it's load and temp properties - automotive clutch release thrust bearings as an example. But what does it run against best ?

How about that, we can't hard chrome to aluminium but we can Titanium Nitride alloy parts:brick:

Anyway the man at the Titanium Nitride place says that running against a carbon surface will be about best. Add a fine layer of oil and that will do the trick.
Also says that running the 7075 with Titanium coating against 4140 steel nitrided (the bigend) (with oil pressure feed) will make a good bearing.

This all sounds too good to be true, you know what they say.

Grumph

15th January 2016, 13:39

How about that, we can't hard chrome to aluminium but we can Titanium Nitride alloy parts:brick:

Anyway the man at the Titanium Nitride place says that running against a carbon surface will be about best. Add a fine layer of oil and that will do the trick.
Also says that running the 7075 with Titanium coating against 4140 steel nitrided (the bigend) (with oil pressure feed) will make a good bearing.

This all sounds too good to be true, you know what they say.

Too bloody easy...

ken seeber

15th January 2016, 13:56

I've been thinking about the HCCI engine again, one suggestion (on another forum) is to use an exhaust gate (valve) to throttle the exhaust not the inlet, leaving the inlet open still. Put the carb back on and just move the needle up and down (no throttle piston) ??? See what happens I guess.

Neil, been thinking a bit about the HCCI (we don't want to see you killed at all) and the sliding cylinder engine, the thing they have in common is that the mass flow thru the engine is being controlled by something other than the inlet:
a. The exhaust valve for the HCCI as you say
b. The significantly lowered transfers for the sliding cylinder

So, what I was going to do was to chuck on a CV carb, with the butterfly held open or removed. This would then passively supply the mixture. For sure there will be some mucking about getting the carb settings right. Probably made worse by the fact that in nearly every case they were used on 4 strokes. For our application, where I intend to initially focus on low load operation and therefore it'll be just on the idle circuit, adjusting this mixture shouldn't be an issue.

Does anyone know which common bike might have used a smallish CV carb, say 20/25 upwards?

WilDun

15th January 2016, 13:57

How about that, we can't hard chrome to aluminium but we can Titanium Nitride alloy parts:brick:

Anyway the man at the Titanium Nitride place says that running against a carbon surface will be about best. Add a fine layer of oil and that will do the trick.
This all sounds too good to be true, you know what they say.

Well, there you go - just ask the right people! - which will now take precedence, the first flight with the new engine or the straight line engine? - you've got a very full diary!

mr bucketracer

15th January 2016, 14:12

Flettner

15th January 2016, 14:25

who was the nice guy that put you on to them (-; lol

Yes, thank you.

This thread is a varitable smorgasbord of ideas, thank all.

husaberg

15th January 2016, 15:55

Neil, been thinking a bit about the HCCI (we don't want to see you killed at all) and the sliding cylinder engine, the thing they have in common is that the mass flow thru the engine is being controlled by something other than the inlet:
a. The exhaust valve for the HCCI as you say
b. The significantly lowered transfers for the sliding cylinder

So, what I was going to do was to chuck on a CV carb, with the butterfly held open or removed. This would then passively supply the mixture. For sure there will be some mucking about getting the carb settings right. Probably made worse by the fact that in nearly every case they were used on 4 strokes. For our application, where I intend to initially focus on low load operation and therefore it'll be just on the idle circuit, adjusting this mixture shouldn't be an issue.

Does anyone know which common bike might have used a smallish CV carb, say 20/25 upwards?

GY6 Honda scooters and the Chinese versions of them.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ATV-Quad-Buggy-Motorbike-Scooter-GY6-24mm-Carburetor-150cc-Carb-Carbi-Chinese-/251254862471
here are the various sizes and dimensions
https://sites.google.com/site/motorparts4less/home/carburetor/moped-carb
Yamaha SRV250 have 26mm downdraft ones as well.
The 250 Fours have 28-30mm CV carbs

Flettner

15th January 2016, 16:09

O well, I guess I deserved that. The Yamaha AG 100 piston split in two, almost. After a good hard high speed run. I was trying to get some sort of control before I videoed it but too late now.
Fixes
1 Replace the piston with a forged one

2 Water cool the head as it gets hot. Probably aiding and abetting early combustion as the head gets hotter.

3 Needs the high speed small piston set up ( oval gears ) to get a more accurate combustion point, at the moment it's all happening a bit early but because of the need for high compression I don't have much choice with this setup.

4 I see the crank case is full of oil, maybe as the engine speeds up it's pushing too much oil into the combustion chamber causing it to hydraulic? At first when it stopped suddenly from high speed I thought it had seized as it stopped so fast. Perhaps thats what did the damage? No signs of seizure. A dry top end would be nice (Ryger).

5 Where did I put that supercharger?

I'm sorry, I was so ashamed of that first video I wanted a decient one to replace it, with me under total control, Ha Ha.

speedpro

15th January 2016, 16:10

Does anyone know which common bike might have used a smallish CV carb, say 20/25 upwards?

Scooters use small CV carbs - 4T anyway

Flettner

15th January 2016, 16:55

Some pictures of the damage, only the Yamaha piston, everything else is still good.
See exhaust runaway gate.

Flettner

15th January 2016, 17:05

Little tank was full of Kerosene / oil mix, started on CRC spray can.

mr bucketracer

15th January 2016, 20:11

Some pictures of the damage, only the Yamaha piston, everything else is still good.
See exhaust runaway gate.thanks for the pictures , has open my eyes to a old idea i but revisted , must stop projects to start though lol

Frits Overmars

16th January 2016, 07:12

Thank you for your help, I'll need every bit.My pleasure Neil. Here's a version with a couple more functions. Let me know what else you need.
318827

Cheesy

16th January 2016, 07:32

Just out of curiosity is the TiN a PVD or a CVD process? Many years ago I was playing with this stuff on piston rings and testing it against arc sprayed / plasma sprayed coatings for cylinder liners

Flettner

16th January 2016, 10:50

My pleasure Neil. Here's a version with a couple more functions. Let me know what else you need.
318827

A sack full of money?

Went scavenging through Blackwood Yamaha's rubbish bin and found a new (ish) piston, not forged but you know what beggers get.
Will make the mods I can for now, drain for the sump, water cool the head.

J.A.W.

16th January 2016, 13:30

Does anyone know which common bike might have used a smallish CV carb, say 20/25 upwards?

1974 Suzuki GT380 is a candidate as a donor, being a 2T triple that used smallish CV carbs ( & for `74 only).

Flettner

16th January 2016, 18:08

No success, after much thought It would seem I've done the wrong thing. I have a better idea with way more control, I think.
And easy to make. Mark two.

Grumph

16th January 2016, 18:46

No success, after much thought It would seem I've done the wrong thing. I have a better idea with way more control, I think.
And easy to make. Mark two.

Be careful - if we don't hear from you again, that would make a splendid epitaph.
Just as well you're not a bomb maker...

Frits Overmars

16th January 2016, 22:29

No success, after much thought It would seem I've done the wrong thing. I have a better idea with way more control, I think. And easy to make. Mark two.Apart from the exhaust pipe that you're going to need anyway and that would prevent the engine from inhaling oxygen through the biggest port?
A decent pipe can markedly raise the cylinder pressure at exhaust closure and that will change everything that happens further in the cycle.
Like how much compression you need, and when you need it.

PS: after seeing the pictures of your HCCI head I understand why the 30,5 mm bore and 8 mm stroke. I knew there would be a good reason for it :msn-wink:.

Flettner

17th January 2016, 09:22

The trouble with prototyping is you need to build the item just good enough to get sensible results but not waste too much time or money getting there.So how much do you cobble together existing parts off other engines (and suffer some compromise) and how much do you build specific for the development. Comes down to cost and time I guess (and how much you realy want it). It could be said once again that's where I'm let down, because I can build parts I do, when another existing part would do the job, although sometimes trying to fit / modify an existing part can be just as much trouble. It can be a real dilemma.
You need to be a little bit "hard ball" on the development sometimes and know when to just walk away. Unfortunatly I'm too soft and just can't help myself and just keep hammering away:weep:

I'm trying to work out wether to just shove another engine on to of my AG100 or just build components specific, real work starts again tomorrow and time for play will run short again. I think I saw the rest of another AG100 engine in Blackwoods bin.

Lets get real, my HCCI engine uses Diesel type compressions so It needs to be more robust than an AG100! BUT if those combustion pressures happen after TDC will ordinary components do the job, lets see?? Just thinking out loud.

I managed to smuge the small pistons ring and lose compression, won't start again.

Flettner

17th January 2016, 15:42

Apart from the exhaust pipe that you're going to need anyway and that would prevent the engine from inhaling oxygen through the biggest port?
A decent pipe can markedly raise the cylinder pressure at exhaust closure and that will change everything that happens further in the cycle.
Like how much compression you need, and when you need it.

PS: after seeing the pictures of your HCCI head I understand why the 30,5 mm bore and 8 mm stroke. I knew there would be a good reason for it :msn-wink:.

After thinking about your comment I'll fit an exhaust, clean up the small piston / ring and give it one more try before I start on the mark two.

Flettner

23rd January 2016, 10:54

I wonder how this system might work with Hydrogen fuel? Am I right in thinking Hydrogen a problem for normal engines due to it's low octane number? With this setup low octane number doesn't matter.

tjbw

23rd January 2016, 11:41

I wonder how this system might work with Hydrogen fuel? Am I right in thinking Hydrogen a problem for normal engines due to it's low octane number? With this setup low octane number doesn't matter.

There are quite a few hydrogen powered vehicles on the road, some use compressed liquid hydrogen. There are guides for conversion, and kits available. Also need to be aware of risks:

http://hydrogenunits.com/disadvantages-dangers-of-a-hydrogen-car.php

WilDun

23rd January 2016, 12:15

Also need to be aware of risks:

Petrol vapour is highly inflammible but we just drive on and pretend that the danger isn't there! - just a matter of being aware and doing our best to prevent these things happening I guess.

Neil, will you be having your first flight with the new engine this week?

husaberg

23rd January 2016, 12:23

I wonder how this system might work with Hydrogen fuel? Am I right in thinking Hydrogen a problem for normal engines due to it's low octane number? With this setup low octane number doesn't matter.

hydogen has a very fast combustion (like too fast, basically an explosion) it works well on a rotary engine though.
http://www2.mazda.com/en/csr/environment/special_features/2006_01_03.html

eldog

23rd January 2016, 12:31

Perhaps the nicest reaction 2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O + energy out

Can spontaneously combust with the right concentrations

anyone remember the Hindenburg?

WilDun

23rd January 2016, 12:42

Perhaps the nicest reaction 2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O + energy out

Can spontaneously combust with the right concentrations

anyone remember the Hindenburg?

Wasn't the Hindenburg accident was caused by static electricity? ie when it was being connected the anchor tower - then it was made worse by the aluminium paint which reacted and spread the flame to the other hydrogen bags?

eldog

23rd January 2016, 12:46

Wasn't the Hindenburg accident was caused by static electricity? ie when it was being connected the anchor tower - then it was made worse by the aluminium paint which reacted and spread the flame to the other hydrogen bags?

Yes, just show you how simple events can have devastating outcomes.

I know of some people who were playing around with a hydrogen generator when it went boom boom.
I don't think it was a flame, but the amount of H2(leaked) and air in the room most likely caused it.

Just be careful.

Flettner

23rd January 2016, 15:18

perhaps a knock sensor connected to my old battery CDI connected to a timing light will give an accurate ignition time? What does a knock sensor put out? 4V pulse?

Flettner

23rd January 2016, 17:53

Petrol vapour is highly inflammible but we just drive on and pretend that the danger isn't there! - just a matter of being aware and doing our best to prevent these things happening I guess.

Neil, will you be having your first flight with the new engine this week?

Will, next weekend, national gyro fly in.

Frits Overmars

24th January 2016, 01:07

I wonder how this system might work with Hydrogen fuel? Am I right in thinking Hydrogen a problem for normal engines due to it's low octane number? With this setup low octane number doesn't matter.Hydrogen has an octane number > 130 so it may not want to play ball in your HCCI engine.
What it does have is an extremely wide flammability window. That's fine, but it is not required with HCCI.
319058
Here's some more hydro-reading:http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm01r0.pdf

Perhaps the nicest reaction 2H2 + O2 -> 2H2O + energy outThat looks too good to be true. And you know what they say...
It'll work if you carry not only the hydrogen but also bring your own oxygen. Yes, there's oxygen in the air, but it's polluted by an overdose of nitrogen.
And if you put that in a combustion engine, you will have H2O + energy + NOx out.
Enter the fuel cell: no high temperatures, so no NOx.

seattle smitty

24th January 2016, 06:33

It being that what's drawn into the carburetor is only about 21% oxygen, how would HCCI engines work with "oxidizer" fuels (particularly methanol, nitromethane, and other common fuels and fuel fractions traditionally used in many kinds of racing)??

Flettner's engine, on gasoline, tried to "run away" on him; would nitro, which has a tendency to auto-ignite already, be utterly uncontrollable in an HCCI engine? (There are some co-solvents for nitromethane that are less prone to detonation than methanol/nitromethane, but probably they are unaffordable).

WilDun

24th January 2016, 07:57

Will, next weekend, national gyro fly in.

Neil, where exactly is it to be held? I might like to see it.
I don't usually go to airshows etc. anymore because I have a frozen neck and I can't look up or sideways which makes it difficult to say the least! - could take a swivel recliner with me though, too good to miss I reckon.

Flettner

24th January 2016, 09:32

Neil, where exactly is it to be held? I might like to see it.
I don't usually go to airshows etc. anymore because I have a frozen neck and I can't look up or sideways which makes it difficult to say the least! - could take a swivel recliner with me though, too good to miss I reckon.

Bit of a drive, Dannevirke.

Flettner

24th January 2016, 09:38

Hydrogen has an octane number > 130 so it may not want to play ball in your HCCI engine.
What it does have is an extremely wide flammability window. That's fine, but it is not required with HCCI.
319058
Here's some more hydro-reading:http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm01r0.pdf

That looks too good to be true. And you know what they say...
It'll work if you carry not only the hydrogen but also bring your own oxygen. Yes, there's oxygen in the air, but it's polluted by an overdose of nitrogen.
And if you put that in a combustion engine, you will have H2O + energy + NOx out.
Enter the fuel cell: no high temperatures, so no NOx.

Ok, just a thought, I'll stick to my light oils.
The Gyro has taken up my time as it needs to be ready for next weekend. Fuel tap leaks, prerotator needs a new finned clutch cone, and some sort of travelling device to hold the control stick off the back stop. I don't want the rotor head banging aginst it's stop all the way down to Dannevirke. Trailers are hard on aircraft.

WilDun

24th January 2016, 11:13

Bit of a drive, Dannevirke.

BUGGER!
My brother in law lives down that way (Wairarapa) but we only get down there about once a year - Looks like we may be at Raglan this weekend anyway and just to mention foundries again, an ideal place to do some melting and casting! - we'll see.

Also a great place for aircraft - not many places where you walk across the runway to get to the beach (remembering to look right and left before you cross, as incoming aircraft have their engines on idle and you can't hear them coming).

Flettner

24th January 2016, 11:22

BUGGER!
My brother in law lives down that way (Wairarapa) but we only get down there about once a year - Looks like we may be at Raglan this weekend anyway and just to mention foundries again, an ideal place to do some melting and casting! - we'll see.

Also a great place for aircraft - not many places where you walk across the runway to get to the beach (remembering to look right and left before you cross, as incoming aircraft have their engines on idle and you can't hear them coming).

The good thing about the Dannevirke strip is it's long and smooth with plenty of off field parking, you know, lots of flat paddocks for emergency engine out landings. Also being Dannevirke it's quiet, no air traffic, until we turn up:eek5:

andrew a

24th January 2016, 13:10

The good thing about the Dannevirke strip is it's long and smooth with plenty of off field parking, you know, lots of flat paddocks for emergency engine out landings. Also being Dannevirke it's quiet, no air traffic, until we turn up:eek5:

Hi Neil i will try to catch up with you if I make it up on Sunday. Ill look for the 2 stroke beast.

Flettner

24th January 2016, 13:23

Hi Neil i will try to catch up with you if I make it up on Sunday. Ill look for the 2 stroke beast.

See you there.

WilDun

26th January 2016, 08:28

Neil, if your new engine is a success will you be catering for the fixed wing people too? - road bikes maybe?

jhenise

27th January 2016, 03:22

howdy all, Neil had asked me to post my progress here about making a pattern for an air cooled two stroke cylinder. this is a follow up from about a month ago.

it's coming together!
http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/50-core-structures-cast-from-the-actual-core-boxes.jpg

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/54-full-core-structure-model-as-a-split-pattern.jpg

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/15.jpg

Full story here...

http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?11802-Air-cooled-2-cycle-motorcycle-racing-cylinder&p=183308#post183308

FastFred

27th January 2016, 08:54

Full story here...

http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?11802-Air-cooled-2-cycle-motorcycle-racing-cylinder&p=183308#post183308

I followed the link, beautiful work. :niceone:

AndreasL

27th January 2016, 09:19

Wow!
Impressive to say the least.

Flettner

27th January 2016, 11:10

Wow!
Impressive to say the least.

It's called therapy :2thumbsup, nice job. How soon to a cast? I've very keen to see the outcome.

AndreasL

28th January 2016, 07:40

It's called therapy :2thumbsup

A very nice form of therapy. Someday I will have/take the time to prioritize projects like that. 👍

jhenise

28th January 2016, 09:35

We aim to cast in about 10 days will post the results!

ken seeber

28th January 2016, 21:35

We aim to cast in about 10 days will post the results!

Jeff, if the castings turn out as half as good as the patterns they'll be brilliant. Excellent. Thanks for sharing.:niceone:

WilDun

28th January 2016, 23:02

Neil,
Good luck with the gyro engine at Dannevirke.

Flettner

29th January 2016, 20:14

Neil,
Good luck with the gyro engine at Dannevirke.

Thank you Will, it's in the hands of the gyro gods now.

Flettner

2nd February 2016, 13:46

WilDun

2nd February 2016, 15:51

I know this is the wrong forum but here goes anyway, Autoflight 700 twin in flight.
The Engine played nice all weekend (thankfully).

Fantastic stuff! - That must have been the most satisfying sight ever, ie to see your own creation in flight!
Congratulations, and I hope that it's development continues and that you achieve everything you set out to do with it.
:2thumbsup:

Lightbulb

2nd February 2016, 16:26

Neil did you have a fly ?
Neil

Askor

2nd February 2016, 17:12

Is the seat the fuel tank?

Flettner

2nd February 2016, 18:42

No, it needs a few hours on it before I'm permitted to fly it (Claire's orders).
Yes fuel in the seat, death and cremation all in one:lol:
I guess no worse than a motorbike tank, in a crash.
It keeps the C of G in the right place as fuel is burnt off.

ken seeber

2nd February 2016, 20:55

No, it needs a few hours on it before I'm permitted to fly it (Claire's orders).
Yes fuel in the seat, death and cremation all in one:lol:
.

Neil
You’re there boy !!! I can see the orders coming in, you’ll need business managers, marketing consultants, patent attorneys, larger facilities, security companies, insurance agents, government advisors, TV interviews & make-up artist, stockbrokers and the list goes on and on and then you’ll wonder what the hell did you did to even want this in the first place.
That aside, karts have the fuel tank between the legs. So, If ever there was a fire, you're knackers would be burnt off, sorta like death I guess.
Anyways, as Willy said, you should be proud.:2thumbsup

Flettner

2nd February 2016, 21:08

Neil
You’re there boy !!! I can see the orders coming in, you’ll need business managers, marketing consultants, patent attorneys, larger facilities, security companies, insurance agents, government advisors, TV interviews & make-up artist, stockbrokers and the list goes on and on and then you’ll wonder what the hell did you did to even want this in the first place.
That aside, karts have the fuel tank between the legs. So, If ever there was a fire, you're knackers would be burnt off, sorta like death I guess.
Anyways, as Willy said, you should be proud.:2thumbsup

I think the word is relieved :sweatdrop

WilDun

3rd February 2016, 09:29

Neil
You So, If ever there was a fire, you're knackers would be burnt off, sorta like death I guess.

True, - but those things cause more grief in this world than just about anything else - even bikes or gyrocopters! ........still best to have some though .......:laugh:

andrew a

3rd February 2016, 11:16

True, - but those things cause more grief in this world than just about anything else - even bikes or gyrocopters! ........still best to have some though .......:laugh:

Amen to that!
Sorry I didn't get there Neil I got crook and had to lay low for the weekend. Great to see the photos or the craft in the air. I hope it brings you hours or enjoyment.

tjbw

3rd February 2016, 14:11

I know this is the wrong forum but here goes anyway, Autoflight 700 twin in flight.
This is Gyro Gary doing the test flying for me, note the control stick is adjusted wrong, too far forward. Will need to fix that. Engine played nice all weekend (thankfully).

Brilliant!

You remind me of Rex McCandless, who designed the Norton Featherbed frame. He also designed and built his own autogyro.

Niels Abildgaard

4th February 2016, 07:49

Hello Neil

Is there somewhere on the web with pictures and words about the engine ?
What size airscrew and rpm and power?
I am aero two stroke enthusiast even more than for bikes.

WilDun

4th February 2016, 08:59

Is there somewhere on the web with pictures and words about the engine ?
I am aero two stroke enthusiast .

Hi Neils - sorry to butt in, but earlier in in this thread and the ESE thead (still under the "Buckets" section as this thread is) - there is enough stuff (with pictures) on the engine's development by FLETTNER (aka NEIL) to keep you occupied forever, it's pretty amazing work and has really kept this thread alive.
Of course you still have to delve to find it, but it's probably worth checking out.

My main interest originally was in learning metal casting, but as I'm also interested in aircraft and bikes, I couldn't keep away from knowing the whole story!

I think Neil is probably a busy guy at the moment - but I thought you might want to read up on it.

WilDun

4th February 2016, 12:29

Brilliant!

You remind me of Rex McCandless, who designed the Norton Featherbed frame. He also designed and built his own autogyro.

Yes, the McCandless brothers (Rex & Cromie) did a lot of sterling work for Norton, they also built a spaceframe trials car,(which I can remember) and I believe that Rex also designed a small full time 4 wheel drive chain driven vehicle (for the rough stuff) the front wheels were slightly lower geared and freewheeled when the rears had grip but when they started to spin, the front wheels took over to help out - innovative for the early fifties.

They had a head start with this sort of stuff, because they worked at Short & Harland's aircraft factory in Belfast ( now owned by Bombardier) and having access to a lot of good materials (tubing etc) and all the state of the art equipment of the time.

I believe the Gyrocopter was developed into a successful machine.

Flettner

4th February 2016, 13:32

Hi Neils - sorry to butt in, but earlier in in this thread and the ESE thead (still under the "Buckets" section as this thread is) - there is enough stuff (with pictures) on the engine's development by FLETTNER (aka NEIL) to keep you occupied forever, it's pretty amazing work and has really kept this thread alive.
Of course you still have to delve to find it, but it's probably worth checking out.

My main interest originally was in learning metal casting, but as I'm also interested in aircraft and bikes, I couldn't keep away from knowing the whole story!

I think Neil is probably a busy guy at the moment - but I thought you might want to read up on it.

I don't know, had a bit of a look but can't find it? Glen will find it;)

Flettner

4th February 2016, 13:34

.

I believe the Gyrocopter was developed into a successful machine.

Gyrocopter design has come a long way since then.

tjbw

4th February 2016, 15:43

Gyrocopter design has come a long way since then.

I recall that he made wooden rotor blades.
Engine was a Triumph twin.

tjbw

4th February 2016, 15:45

Yes, the McCandless brothers (Rex & Cromie) did a lot of sterling work for Norton, they also built a spaceframe trials car,(which I can remember) and I believe that Rex also designed a small full time 4 wheel drive chain driven vehicle (for the rough stuff) the front wheels were slightly lower geared and freewheeled when the rears had grip but when they started to spin, the front wheels took over to help out - innovative for the early fifties.

They had a head start with this sort of stuff, because they worked at Short & Harland's aircraft factory in Belfast ( now owned by Bombardier) and having access to a lot of good materials (tubing etc) and all the state of the art equipment of the time.

I believe the Gyrocopter was developed into a successful machine.

He also worked with Harry Ferguson for a while.

Yow Ling

4th February 2016, 16:44

Hello Neil

Is there somewhere on the web with pictures and words about the engine ?
What size airscrew and rpm and power?
I am aero two stroke enthusiast even more than for bikes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DyPUqr4-CU

WilDun

4th February 2016, 19:11

He also worked with Harry Ferguson for a while.

Lots of people worked for him (even Henry Ford!) - Harry (I'm told) was a great organiser and salesman!

WilDun

5th February 2016, 07:50

Gyrocopter design has come a long way since then.

Yes, those were early days and the pioneers did take a few risks I guess, probably McCandless was quite lucky!

What next? - guess you'll be concentrating on getting the engine perfected and into production - lots more metal casting?
Looking good, keep going and keep us posted.

Flettner

5th February 2016, 09:10

Yes, those were early days and the pioneers did take a few risks I guess, probably McCandless was quite lucky!

What next? - guess you'll be concentrating on getting the engine perfected and into production - lots more metal casting?
Looking good, keep going and keep us posted.

Interesting question, what next? Production? How many? Market research? How many Rotax sold?

All very business like but I don't have the resources to back it up. Each engine will cost up front to make, although we do have the machinery and fixtures, just not the exhaust press tools yet.
I guess I'll just make a few (2) and find flying homes for them but they can not be sold as they may still need development. Give away free engines, that's a good way to make money:eek:
Take deposits and start building many engines, a bit risky at this stage I think.
Find a sugar mummy (I'd prefer a mummy over a dady) and let them fund it, perhaps.
Yes indeed, what next?
For a start just keep this one flying.

WilDun

5th February 2016, 09:41

Interesting question, what next? Production? How many? Market research? How many Rotax sold?

All very business like but I don't have the resources to back it up.
Yes indeed, what next?
For a start just keep this one flying.

Would be very sad to see all the work come to nothing, still must be satisfying to see your own creation working.
Guess a lot of the bike boys would like to have it on the road, but .......... not really a realistic idea!
John Key might help? - maybe not these days - so involved the pressures from the big business of the world, bun fights up north etc. he probably won't even notice! :no:

Flettner

5th February 2016, 10:13

Would be very sad to see all the work come to nothing, still must be satisfying to see your own creation working.
Guess a lot of the bike boys would like to have it on the road, but .......... not really a realistic idea!
John Key might help? - maybe not these days - so involved the pressures from the big business of the world, bun fights up north etc. he probably won't even notice! :no:

O yes the TPPA that will save us.
I have a bike version on the drawing board (some patterns made) with a six speed gearbox, once again I will need the resources to back it up.
At the end of the day, who cares I guess, I have my own twostroke Gyro engine now so if no one else wants one, I don't mind. Same with the bike engine, I have two in mind to build, one, a twin for Blackwood yamaha and one for me, so if that's where it ends so what, I enjoy building these things. I'll be building mine as a 1050cc tripple 210HP +, something no one will be brave enough to ride, including me.:lol:
Don't get me wrong, I would like to build production gyro engines but unfortunatly reality bites.

speedpro

5th February 2016, 10:21

3 big fat pipes to find a home, you'll need valium

WilDun

5th February 2016, 10:58

O yes the TPPA that will save us.
I have a bike version on the drawing board (some patterns made) with a six speed gearbox, once again I will need the resources to back it up.
I'll be building mine as a 1050cc tripple 210HP +, something no one will be brave enough to ride, including me.:lol:

Hopefully in a milder state of tune (50% maybe, as compared to a racer) long pipes as opposed to the fat ones! :facepalm:

ken seeber

5th February 2016, 12:13

STOP PRESS!!!
Western Australia checking in with a sliding cylinder update:
Water jackets exh passages in plus a recess to clear the boss on the actual cylinder when the cylinder is at max height (= the power setting 71 hp).
The two black dots represent where an M6 push/pull rod will pass to raise and lower the cylinder externally.
Next step is to do the assembly machining of the pair for the holes in both for the rod.
This being done, the cylinder will be good to go to the plater.
Time is always the issue at the moment with work and karting committee happenings being major distractions. :cry:

319284

WilDun

5th February 2016, 15:29

M6 push/pull rod will pass to raise and lower the cylinder externally.

Stepper driving the screw?

F5 Dave

5th February 2016, 19:36

Would be very sad to see al

work come to nothing, still me satisfying to see your own creation working.
Guess a lot of the bike boys would like to have it on the road, but .......... not really a realistic idea!
John Key might help? - maybe not these days - so involved the pressures from the big business of the world, bun fights up north etc. he probably won't even notice! :no:
Come to nothing?!? Looks like it has already borne fruit.

Plenty of people has ruined thier hobby by trying to make it into a business.

Frits Overmars

6th February 2016, 05:16

The two black dots represent where an M6 push/pull rod will pass to raise and lower the cylinder externally.M6 sounds a bit feeble to me. But more importantly: surely you are not going to use normal M-thread? Low-friction trapezium thread was invented for jobs like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezoidal_thread_forms

WilDun

6th February 2016, 07:26

M6 sounds a bit feeble to me. But more importantly: surely you are not going to use normal M-thread? Low-friction trapezium thread was invented for jobs like this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapezoidal_thread_forms

With no backlash allowable,(using an adjustable double nut) - how about ballscrews?
Hang on a minute, this is all beginning to sound positively sadistic - that was unintentional by the way!:facepalm:

ken seeber

6th February 2016, 21:50

[QUOTE=Frits Overmars;1130944909]M6 sounds a bit feeble to me.

The situation is that the M6 will, in fact, be screwed permanently into the boss of the cylinder so the actuation will be external of the waterways.
As the cylinder head (spigotted into the cylinder and the same diameter as the piston) will be stationary, supported by the water jacket, the sliding cylinder will not see any direct combustion forces. However it will see:
1. The axial component of the piston face and ring friction forces
2. Crankcase pressure variations acting on the relatively large cylinder base diameter
3. Cooling water pressure
Hopefully these are all small and time averaged to be close to zero.

As to the actuation, there are a couple of sources of friction to consider:
1. 3 off O rings surrounding the exh passage outlets
2. The large cylinder base O ring
3. The O ring and piston ring in the cyl head

Will just have to wait until it is all assembled for the first time to see what axial force is required to overcome all the above. However, for the first runs it can be simply be done with spanners over nuts on a long thread connected to the M6. There is a thought that, when operating, all the relatively high frequency fluctuating and reversing forces might act favourably to break the stiction allow the cylinder to be easily moved in either direction.

I know the M6 is possibly feeble (not so in a Swiss watch though) so time will tell with all the unknowns yet to rear their heads. Space is tight in this design format.
If the mechanism shits itself, then we'll just lock it up into fixed positions and still be able to conduct some meaningful testing.

Currently, 37 C with Monday/Tuesday going to 42+. Just can't wait. :weep: Makes the 40C coolant temp into the engine from the radiator seem a tad difficult.

Frits Overmars

6th February 2016, 23:29

With no backlash allowable,(using an adjustable double nut) - how about ballscrews?
Hang on a minute, this is all beginning to sound positively sadistic - that was unintentional by the way!:facepalm:Your sudden sensitivity fits in nicely with a certain quote in another Kiwi-thread:
I can still get a leg over, unfortunately not over the seat of a racing bike! :laugh:

Currently, 37 C with Monday/Tuesday going to 42+. Just can't wait. You sadist. It just stopped snowing here.

F5 Dave

7th February 2016, 01:22

Crumbs, we're getting close to 30 during the days, met it the day before, can't sleep. Maybe I'll stop bitching.

Flettner

7th February 2016, 11:23

Frit's, you must be a little bit excited to see what happens with this experiment, I know I am. Throttleable transfers!

Frits Overmars

7th February 2016, 23:11

Frit's, you must be a little bit excited to see what happens with this experiment, I know I am. Throttleable transfers!We both are. I had a hunch you were up to something like this after our 'comma-transfers' discussion went quiet and it dawned on me when I saw your castings in October. But do you think your cylinder will be able to move up and down quickly enough to make a throttle redundant? It might turn out to be fly-off by wire :p.

ken seeber

8th February 2016, 00:52

But do you think your cylinder will be able to move up and down quickly enough to make a throttle redundant?:p.

Frits, speed of actuation would be an issue in real life, but not so for a slave test cylinder such as this. Obviously there are lots of things going on with this version, axial scavenging, tri exh ports, large crankcase volume, etc, etc. If it can go from a 2 stroke 2 stroke idle up to a reasonable output then good, with a wide powerband in between then sweet. Like lots of things, if some basic principle shows promise, then one will try hard to get around the shortcomings, in this case, a responsive actuation system.
Obviously, one does not need to limit oneself to the existing scavenging design, so a much lower friction level for a more conventional sliding cylinder sealing system could be introduced.
Who knows? Jeez, if one thinks too hard :headbang: about making a perfect design, nothing would ever get made.

Frits Overmars

8th February 2016, 04:36

Jeez, if one thinks too hard about making a perfect design, nothing would ever get made.This deserves a place on the wall of fame.
319365

seattle smitty

8th February 2016, 04:54

Academic economists have a running joke on themselves about this process: "Oh sure, that's how it works in real life . . . but how does it work in theory??"

Frits Overmars

8th February 2016, 05:27

..........319366

seattle smitty

8th February 2016, 07:34

Frits Overmars

8th February 2016, 10:04

Darn, not again! However you, and others, are posting that, I never can get this computer (Win 10.1) to read it.I have a hunch as to what the problem could be Smitty. Below are three picture formats: PNG, JPG and GIF. Can you see all of them?
319373 319372 319371

husaberg

8th February 2016, 12:44

(Darn, not again! However you, and others, are posting that, I never can get this computer (Win 10.1) to read it).

Henry Kissinger said the same thing as the economists, but from another angle (you have to remember his deep growling voice): "It was such a beautiful theory . . . and in this case it had the added advantage of being true!"

Yes Smitty windows 10 is the same for me I just right click on the PNG and open it. Or conversely save it and look at it there.
319375
Maybe frits has another work around?

seattle smitty

8th February 2016, 17:44

I can see all three, Frits, but left-clicking doesn't open any of them. However Husaberg's right-click did the trick with your previously unopenable post, AAHHHH!!! :niceone::niceone::niceone:

Increasing age is supposed to mellow us out, but personal computers have increased my profanity to levels that would have horrified my poor mother. There was an expression in this country, easily a hundred years old but now disappearing in our regrettable modern age, in which something reliable "Runs like a Swiss watch!!" Every computer I've owned runs like a cheap Chinese knock-off. Hiccups and farts, endless glitches, hours of work vaporized beyond recall. Is it supposed to be irrelevant that a Swiss watch was AN ENTIRELY MECHANICAL DEVICE??? The nerds love to load these miserable computers with hundreds of FEATURES!, lah-di-dah, which they assume are as exciting to us as to them, where what I want would be stripped and SIMPLE. Now these same nerds want to fill our roads with computer-driven cars (and our airspace with drones). They imagine they reassure us by saying that the car-driving computers are comparatively simple. Right. A fly-by-wire throttle is even simpler, yet one that was put into production by one of the world's best carmakers killed several people before being recalled, while the carmaker scratched its head in searching for a cause.

Computers!!! I never really appreciated the expression, "a love/hate relationship" until I got a computer.

(Sorry, TeeZee, and I promise I'm going to come back and delete this gratuitous rant, but for the moment I want to vent!)

TZ350

8th February 2016, 19:44

(Sorry, TeeZee, and I promise I'm going to come back and delete this gratuitous rant, but for the moment I want to vent!)

Vent away, fill your boots, I am happy, this is the Foundry thread started by Yow Ling ...... :D

Flettner

8th February 2016, 20:09

Flettner

8th February 2016, 20:17

We both are. I had a hunch you were up to something like this after our 'comma-transfers' discussion went quiet and it dawned on me when I saw your castings in October. But do you think your cylinder will be able to move up and down quickly enough to make a throttle redundant? It might turn out to be fly-off by wire :p.

You don't know the half of it Frits, all this secret stuff going on in our secret development lab located at our secret location:shit:
Yah Right:facepalm: I think all my cards are on the (not so secret) table.
Never the less, I'm very keen to see what happens, thanks to your input for guiding us in the right, well a direction, remember I did say I was going to bastardise your concept.

adegnes

8th February 2016, 20:21

There is a better way...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Tux.png

Frits Overmars

8th February 2016, 21:38

I'm very keen to see what happens, thanks to your input for guiding us in the right, well a direction
remember I did say I was going to bastardise your concept.A direction? Why do I get the impression that you're always working in at least five different directions at the same time: direct EFI, variable rotary timing, ride by wire, opposed pistons, sleeve valve, FOS scavenging, variable cylinder timing, hypocycloid crank, HCCI, singles, twins, triples, did I miss anything? Oh yes, autogiros.
Bastardize away at your heart's desire Neil, I love it! :2thumbsup.

WilDun

9th February 2016, 11:20

There is a better way...

The road to old age is littered with better ways, often with dead ends, but the Bucketeers etc. explore them anyway - stuff the straight easy road I say!

Flettner

9th February 2016, 13:36

Do you think your cylinder will be able to move up and down quickly enough to make a throttle redundant? It might turn out to be fly-off by wire :p.

Thats's why I decided on a rack and pinion, straight to a push pull cable. Remember there are no combustion loads on this component, just a bit of "O" ring friction.

WilDun

9th February 2016, 16:32

Thats's why I decided on a rack and pinion, straight to a push pull cable. Remember there are no combustion loads on this component, just a bit of "O" ring friction.

I didn't know about the cable either, I just assumed it would be a stepper, guess you guys will soon find out one way or the other! As they say, talk is cheap, actions are something else!
Not many actions coming from my place at the moment! :rolleyes:

nasone32

9th February 2016, 23:46

idea for making sand cores for casting.
3d printing the shell! with a super cheap desktop 3d printer

(those boosters are meant to go around the bolts)
the outer shape of the cylinder can be 3d printed aswell in two halves.

319413319414319415319416319417

Peiter

9th February 2016, 23:52

You might want to check page 110 Nasone, there Polinzei showed some excellent results of printed core boxes :).

Further back I showed some pictures of a cylinder which I have cast using the "lost PLA" method.
This method worked like a charm as well and it is also affordable with a desktop 3d printer.

nasone32

9th February 2016, 23:55

nasone32

10th February 2016, 00:12

seen that, IMPRESSIVE result, my compliments!
Can you go a bit in the detail about the procedure, after the print? please please!

do you submerge the print with a mix of plaster of paris and sand, and then melt the pla away?
how does the investment fill the voids in the model?
I'd be glad to know!

EDIT: nevermind, i find your post!

jhenise

10th February 2016, 10:56

Well, Neil we did it! Air cooled barrel cast!
we had some small issues with the tips of the largest fins filling, but the bore and ports and the rest of the fins came out great. For these i will add the missing fin tips with the TIG and be on my way.
I have some ideas on how to improve the fill, to the fin tips we were SO close!
Two cylinders have survived heat treating to T6 and will be machined and nikasil plated soon!

full story here
http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/showthread.php?11802-Air-cooled-2-cycle-motorcycle-racing-cylinder/page7

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/22.jpg

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/112.jpg

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/43.jpg

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/FullSizeRender_5.jpg

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-login.php

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/103.jpg

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/63.jpg

and heat treating...

http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/F37_cylinder_oven_9904.jpg

tjbw

10th February 2016, 11:10

Applause for jhenise, well done!

Brett S

10th February 2016, 12:37

Flettner

10th February 2016, 12:51

Great work Jhenise.

Did you pour all cylinders at once from the one crucible and did the last one get worse fin filling?
I wonder if they are just cold shuts or air couldn't escape.

Maybe one of the below thoughts may help:
If cold shuts:
Hotter melt temp
Remove filter for faster fill

If trapped air:
Slightly tilt moulds up on angle so air can run along fins to the fore aft web and scratch an air vent up mould split line to let it out
Courser sand or less resin
Drill down side of mould alongside fins and then drill through tips of fins to let air out. fettle off pips after

Hopefully one of these may help.

Brett

Real nice job! You should be well proud, no stopping you now:laugh:

I use just a welding wire to poke down to the pattern before the sand is hardened, also these little holes are good for CO2 infusion.

Tiny little holes to let the mould gas escape.

Seeing those air cooled cylinders encourages me to have a go at my F9 cylinder, I can't say it enough, REAL nice job.

ken seeber

10th February 2016, 14:51

Jeff, really nice work. I'm sure the fin filling issues will be easily resolvable.
Hope the performance matches the level of excellent detail you have put in all through the design and manufacture.
Job satisfaction 100% :yes:

Michael Moore

10th February 2016, 18:20

I added some links to FB videos from Sunday to Jeff's thread at Alloy Avenue.

Brett, we played it safe and refilled the crucible after each cylinder. The small crucible might have been fine (I don't think Jeff has weighed a complete casting/runner system yet) but we had all day and it didn't take long to get another melt ready.

Jeff picked the two cylinders up from me this afternoon and should be machining them tonight. He'll bring me chunks of runner so I can see how hard they got.

Quenching both cylinders at once had the water vigorously boiling (and slopping several gallons out on the floor) for about 45-50 seconds. This was water that was @ 208F at the start of the quench. 20 minutes later it was still at 198F. We used a big plastic ice chest for the tank. Jeff plumbed an immersion heating element into the side of the chest that brought the 110F tap water to 190F in about 50 minutes.

Having a handle for the rack that kept my hands from being directly over the superheated steam made it a much less dramatic (and painful) process.

cheers,
Michael

WilDun

10th February 2016, 21:18

That's excellent work, I would have been happy to have half as good results!:niceone:

Lightbulb

10th February 2016, 21:42

You have done very well indeed and thank you for sharing the weblink and posting here as you have been progressing the project.
Neil Lickfold

ken seeber

12th February 2016, 16:29

Sliding cylinder update. Finally got the time to set up the water jacket and cylinder and do the assy machining for the actuation rod and also the water jacket base mounting holes. These have been done on the same PCD as Fletto's standard gauge mounting pattern on his crankcases. This will allow interchangeability from the basic ex kart engine crankcase I will build up and Fletto's setup so it can actually be tested on a bike.
I think the pics tell the story, the small O ring on the rod will provide the sealing around the sliding rod.
As usual, progress is slow ( :sweatdrop ) , a fraction of that ever so youthful Fletto.

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F5 Dave

12th February 2016, 17:25

Wow, I used to think I did adventurous things, mb100/h100 triple ex port full case reed etc in the 90s, but I'm blown into the weeds by the real innovators.

Mind you I knew I was in the minor leagues when some clown showed up to a bucket gp, was it the late 80s? with a uni flow engine in a bike. I never knew such a thing existed.

Tunisti

13th February 2016, 13:57

First of all, I've gotta say that this thread is just way too impressive! If I wore a hat, I'd tie it to a weather balloon and let it go for good.:crazy:

But, I have a problem. When making cores with sodium cilicate there is something terribly wrong. I've calculated the needed amount of CO2 to harden the cores, and they harden quite well with the required gasing. I've also tried several temperatures, concentrations and sands. But when the cores stay over night in the workshop, they have become very brittle and they're falling in pieces even from the smallest touch. I thought that it would be due to relative humidity of the air, so I packed the cores into sealed container with CaCl2 in small cup to remove the moisture. Still they changed just as brittle as before.

So, I'm thinking that I've got some wrong kind of sodium silicate. It's not easy to obtain in Finland and no one tends to know anything about it in here. The liquid is water clear, high in viscosity and doesn't seem to settle very easily via atmospheric CO2. What I've seen in videos, the liquid is brownish and the cores seem to withstad pretty rough handling when assembling the moulds. So, any ideas what's wrong? I've read that you can modify sodium silicate by adding some water to it, but I think it's not going to do the trick.

Can I modify my sodium cilicate with some additives/procedures, or should I search for that brown one? Where could I get it? I know that cores can also be baked, but that's not an option right now... Almost forgot, what is the glue that is used to seal mould halves and glue cores to another cores? Tradenames or chemical formulas could help me a lot.

-Sami

WilDun

13th February 2016, 16:18

I found this PDF on Sodium Silicate on my desktop but had to send it this way - the forum doesn't seem to want to handle PDF messages and I couldn't find the link!
They're not my words of course, but here it is anyway! I've been told that Sodium Silicate itself is actually a good glue.

BTW, Does anyone know how to send a PDF to this forum??

EDIT (TZ says in the next post below that it can be downloaded to desktop etc. and read as a PDF so I've deleted the original print).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

TZ350

13th February 2016, 17:40

319534

Here Will, this is your PDF, I was able to download it from your previous post.

WilDun

13th February 2016, 17:54

Here Will, this is your PDF, I was able to download it from your previous post.

Thanks TZ,
Still get the same thing as before but everyone will no doubt be able to download it too! - all probably more savvy than me.
Now if I don't understand this, then how the hell will I ever be able to understand the Ryger! :confused:

jhenise

14th February 2016, 05:16

I did a bit of messing around with this and that when I first started making sand molds and had a lot of problems and ok results.

SO i decided that since this foundry stuff is tricky enough as is, I would switch to a standardized system of chemicals that were sold to work together, and ever since i have had almost no problems on the chemical front!

I get everything through a local distributor here is the USA from a company called HA International. I have contacted HA directly and it is hard to get them to part with anything less then tanks and drums, but if you find a supplier they may be willing to siphon off buckets of this and that here and there.

http://www.ha-international.com/

For sand binder I use their sodium silicate formula: Chem Bond 4905 resin and 230 catalyst
http://www.ha-international.com/tds/321517.pdf

4905 can be found elsewhere too:
http://shop.clay-planet.com/chembond-4905-no-bake-binder---5-gallon-bucket.aspx

You mix the catalyst into the sand then the resin, it creates a chemical reaction that forms CO2 in situ so you don't need gas and get perfect hardness throughout the mold every time.
I use AFS 90 silica sand, they call it "Oklahoma 90" over here. I story teh molds in a room heated to ~80 oF to keep dry a few days before casting of also seal cores in a container with CaCl2 or CaSO4 (dririte)

For mold release i use NixSTix NB
http://www.ha-international.com/tds/362307.pdf

To glue cores and molds together I use Core Weld NB
http://www.ha-international.com/tds/361635.pdf

And for smooth finish on cores and molds I use ArcoLite 408N zircon core wash
http://www.ha-international.com/tds/312225.pdf

I am not saying these are the only good products out there, but they work well in my hands. The point is if you find a foundry chemical supplier and but a set of things designed to work together they work well together.

WilDun

14th February 2016, 09:31

ken seeber

15th February 2016, 14:28

Jeff,
Some time ago, we did a cylinder prototype for submission to the Australian Karting Association. This was offered as an alternative to the original cast cylinder for the Yamaha KT100J engine, a popular lower performance engine. One of the issues for this engine was the wide performance variation due to the casting variations of both the cast in, cast iron liner with cast ports and its matching to the cylinder jacket ports and passages. We were offering a cast cylinder with much more accuracy in conjunction with a shrunk-in CNC machined liner.

One of the key things for us was to ensure we had a good match between the ports of machined jacket and the machined ports of the liner. The key variable being the position of the cast ports in the finned jacket. So we concluded that the most accurate way was, when doing the initial machining op, to use the ports and cast bore as the initial datums. We felt this was much better than trying to hold the jacket, for example, by the fins or other external features.

So, we made up a vertical central post fixture that featured an upper and lower level of 3 balls each. These were expanded outwards by tapered plugs within the fixture, these being drawn together with an M10 screw, with a spring between the plugs. This centralised the bore. To set the height, we inserted a piece thru the exh port and this had a dowell that entered a hole on the fixture post, this piece could rotate slightly such that the roof of the exh port sat down on the 2 small balls. For indexing, the small piece had a screw head on one side and the jacket was rotated up to this piece so the side of the exh port registered against the screw head. As the jacket was the noprmal way up, the first machining operation was to do the cylinder head sealing face and the stud holes, creating a datum location for all the subsequent operations.

The rubber bands were a poor man’s way to stop the balls falling out. A sort of negative castration I guess.

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WilDun

15th February 2016, 22:54

Ken, did the new cylinders improve the performance? - interesting looking machine guess it did the job well?
I often had to do a lot of jigs and fixtures for CNC machines etc. and it gave me the chance to have a free licence to think up weird and wonderful stuff and more or less do my own thing.
I just refused to operate the CNC machines, couldn't stand the thought of being tied down to production - missed out on learning to fully understand the CNC stuff though!

Was back in my workshop most of the day today so I must be coming right.

What's the latest on the sliding cylinder?

tjbw

15th February 2016, 22:56

Originally posted by ken seeber

...

Thanks for sharing that Ken, I bet it saved a lot of set-up time.

tjbw

15th February 2016, 23:24

...

missed out on learning to fully understand the CNC stuff though!

Was back in my workshop most of the day today so I must be coming right.

...

Wil, you understand how to machine, so already know what's required for CNC, it just requires a list of instructions and co-ordinates etc.

Good to hear that you're on the mend.

WilDun

16th February 2016, 12:41

Wil, you understand how to machine, so already know what's required for CNC, it just requires a list of instructions and co-ordinates etc.

Yeah, I just need to buy a CNC machine! (well I do already have a little engraver).
I don't regret not learning CNC way back, because I had a ball doing the stuff I liked in my own little corner of the factory (which made various kinds of valves), things like coreboxes, jigs and fixtures, prototypes etc. Much better than being a personal slave to a CNC machine!

Flettner

20th February 2016, 20:50

Flettner

20th February 2016, 20:55

Also an order for five gearboxes similar to this one. This is a 160 HP three gear unit to suit the Honda Fitt / Jazz engine.
The ones we make for replica Mustangs fit on to a Chev V8 engine of some sort, just over 300HP. We would have made at least sixty of these 300HP units now.
2.21 to one reduction ratio, V8's are 1.9 to one. Gears are all EN39B case hardened to 60R.

Grumph

21st February 2016, 06:15

There was a guy down here converting V12 Jag motors for replica Mustangs/Spitfires. Market seems to have dried up.

I was told many moons ago that for best life a gear pair should be dissimilar steels...One in say EN39B, it's mate in EN36A. The close ratio bike box conversions I've done have all followed this path. Comments ? Experience ?
It's worked for me but obviously not with the loads these boxes will see.

WilDun

21st February 2016, 07:50

No more engine projects these last few weeks, work is getting in the way. For example, wheels for Mustang 3/4 scale replicas. Cast in LM 25, heat treated to T6 then finished machined. Five sets (ten wheels), castings done by Skellerns in Auckland. Nice casting job too, no inclusions. We made the pattern in house.

Nice job, are the wheels of similar alloy to "mag" car wheels?
I hadn't realized that the little Honda engines were being used in aircraft - thought the Suzuki and Toyotas ruled.

Also are the newer Chev engines still cast iron?- must be heavy! and why do they use a 3 gear reduction box - one idler maybe ?

I think I'm getting a bit behind here! :rolleyes: