Trump - 4 more years of this at least...

[pritch]

Yeah, for a 74 year old I'm surprised he can move without being hooked up to life support. Maybe they edited his tanks out of the pic. Quick, get some tanks in there pritch and get dat scoop bro.

He's just a young feller, but a life of bad diet and no exercise will do that.

[TheDemonLord]

This is a recent shot, the MAGAts would have you believe this is a photo of a guy in great shape. Without his orange makeup and usual hair dye job, and with his blotchy skin he really aint looking too flash.

I've seen a lot worse 70+ year olds, those in the White house for example...

[sugilite]

I've seen a lot worse 70+ year olds, those in the White house for example...

Yeah, agreed, have seen a lot worse at his age.

Would love to see this guy interview you mate. I have no doubt at all you would last a lot longer and make a much better fist of it than the Trump supporter he interviewed. In fact, I reckon you would last the full 12 rounds. However, ultimately the DJ would prevail on points with clever use of actual facts. :yes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dunR5UHfoFI

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah, agreed, have seen a lot worse at his age.

Would love to see this guy interview you mate. I have no doubt at all you would last a lot longer and make a much better fist of it than the Trump supporter he interviewed. In fact, I reckon you would last the full 12 rounds. However, ultimately the DJ would prevail on points with clever use of actual facts. :yes:


James O Brien is an absolute fuckwit (And that's nothing in reference to his views on Trump - mainly his views on Brexit but that's a different matter).

I probably would go full 12 rounds, and if I knew I was going to do it, rather than an off-the-cuff thing, then it wouldn't be that hard.

[pritch]

Would love to see this guy interview you mate.

James O'Brien is excellent. He has a podcast "Full Disclosure" in which he interviews people very few of whom I've ever heard of. Most interviews are interesting some are brilliant. The first one I heard was his interview with Brian Wood MC.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/full-disclosure-james-obrien/full-disclosure-with-james-obrien-brian-wood/

[sugilite]

James O Brien is an absolute fuckwit (And that's nothing in reference to his views on Trump - mainly his views on Brexit but that's a different matter).

I probably would go full 12 rounds, and if I knew I was going to do it, rather than an off-the-cuff thing, then it wouldn't be that hard.
You loathe him? I'll buy an extra box of popcorn!


James O'Brien is excellent. He has a podcast "Full Disclosure" in which he interviews people very few of whom I've ever heard of. Most interviews are interesting some are brilliant. The first one I heard was his interview with Brian Wood MC.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/podcasts/full-disclosure-james-obrien/full-disclosure-with-james-obrien-brian-wood/
First time I seen him, apparently not everyone here is a fan lol. I thought he was very good at holding that trumper accountable for their ravings.

[TheDemonLord]

You loathe him? I'll buy an extra box of popcorn!

First time I seen him, apparently not everyone here is a fan lol. I thought he was very good at holding that trumper accountable for their ravings.

Well, obviously - I follow Brexit related things a bit, since y'know....

Here's another side of his:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF3OQkWEyZA

The right-honorable member for the 19th Century, Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg against James O'Brien and this shows what happens when he meets someone that is equally well prepared and his mask slips.

And what is truly interesting is that this was done 2 years ago, and we can see whether or not any of the predictions James made came true - and it turns out they haven't and it appears (with the Covid Vaccination scandal) that leaving the EU has benefited the UK quite nicely. Double ironic because one of the claims of the Remoaners was that Brexit will stop the UK from accessing "Life saving Medical supplies"

[Bonez]

You loathe him? I'll buy an extra box of popcorn!.
It's a bit like you loathing any KB member with a different point of veiw than you Numbnuts. But unlike you he doesn't threaten to offload a truck of poo poos on his front lawn.

[mashman]

He's just a young feller, but a life of bad diet and no exercise will do that.

I reckon he looks pretty good for 74, doubly so as he's treated himself in such a way.

[Bonez]

I reckon he looks pretty good for 74, doubly so as he's treated himself in such a way.ME TOO!:yes:

[mashman]

ME TOO!:yes:

Where's the hash?

[Bonez]

Where's the hash?

I think Numbnuts, who I don't give a shit about, has a double garage full of the stuff.:innocent:

That might explain his toxic behaviour over the last year and a half.

She sent me a vailed threat via rep the poor dear.

[mashman]

I think Numbnuts, who I don't give a shit about, has a double garage full of the stuff.:innocent:

That might explain his toxic behaviour over the last year and a half.

She sent me a vailed threat via rep the poor dear.

That's a lot of hash. It's possible that sort of quantity could drive anyone to anything. I mean, take Bob Marley for instance. He ended up singing songs about peace and love and living together n shit, got shot for doing so, then got on stage a few days later stating: "The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off, why should I? Light up the darkness.", displaying a wisdom seldom seen in this world. I would have thought pritch would have been more amenable if his garage was stocked. You didn't sell him a double garage load of oxo cubes did ya?

[Bonez]

That's a lot of hash. It's possible that sort of quantity could drive anyone to anything. I mean, take Bob Marley for instance. He ended up singing songs about peace and love and living together n shit, got shot for doing so, then got on stage a few days later stating: "The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off, why should I? Light up the darkness.", displaying a wisdom seldom seen in this world. I would have thought pritch would have been more amenable if his garage was stocked. You didn't sell him a double garage load of oxo cubes did ya? Might have. but can't remember because I'm old.:msn-wink:

The KB Kniting Circle Ladys call Trump a narcissist yet they themselves exhibit narcissic behavior in KB forums all the time.:weird:. In some cases it is a damn sight worse than they examples they give for Trump. So bad sometimes mods actually delete their posts.:facepalm: Especially when they get abusive or abuse their member:whistle:

[mashman]

Might have. but can't remember because I'm old.:msn-wink:

The KB Kniting Circle Ladys call Trump a narcissist yet they themselves exhibit narcissic behavior in KB forums all the time.:weird:. In some cases it is a damn sight worse than they examples they give for Trump. So bad sometimes mods actually delete their posts.:facepalm: Especially when they get abusive or abuse their member:whistle:

How old does one have to be before they get to use it?... asking for a friend.

Was you around when the "he's a narcissist" phase gripped certain members of R&R like a pandemic? The echo was deafening. The answer to everything was, "he's a narcissist". Revealing to say the least given the finger pointers and circle jerkers v's finger pointees in any given thread on any given subject. Very funny in a great many ways, but kind of very sad that it took place.

It takes one to know one, apparently, although I prefer "You see the world as you are!". Trump has spent his life projecting an image of success that involves getting his own way a lot. Big fucking whoop. That he digs it makes him narcissistic, but even at that, narcissists still have great capacity for compassion (usually), even if it is just looking good by doing good for and by others, but generally don't go out of their way to destroy others in the process of their glorification. Cunts don't. Their narcissism is just another feather on their arrow of life. It sits proudly erect on the arrow, right next to the other two white feathers. Wilful ignorance and being a cunt.

[Bonez]

How old does one have to be before they get to use it?... asking for a friend.

Was you around when the "he's a narcissist" phase gripped certain members of R&R like a pandemic? The echo was deafening. The answer to everything was, "he's a narcissist". Revealing to say the least given the finger pointers and circle jerkers v's finger pointees in any given thread on any given subject. Very funny in a great many ways, but kind of very sad that it took place.

It takes one to know one, apparently, although I prefer "You see the world as you are!". Trump has spent his life projecting an image of success that involves getting his own way a lot. Big fucking whoop. That he digs it makes him narcissistic, but even at that, narcissists still have great capacity for compassion (usually), even if it is just looking good by doing good for and by others, but generally don't go out of their way to destroy others in the process of their glorification. Cunts don't. Their narcissism is just another feather on their arrow of life. It sits proudly erect on the arrow, right next to the other two white feathers. Wilful ignorance and being a cunt.Yip remember it well. The KB Knitting Circle Ladys made a ton of posts about it daily and drowning out any other KB members making post regarding motorcycles or other interesting topics.Lke peranas on a bleeding carcass they were.

I found Numbnuts last two passive agressive posts in PD absolutely hilarious and responded appropriately.:wings:

Trump did extremely will sonsidering all the crap that was trown at him.:dodge: As have you and TDL. Well done.:2thumbsup

[mashman]

Yip remember it well. The KB Knitting Circle Ladys made a ton of posts about it daily and drowning out any other KB members making post regarding motorcycles or other interesting topics.Lke peranas on a bleeding carcass they were.

I found Numbnuts last two passive agressive posts in PD absolutely hilarious and responded appropriately.:wings:

Trump did extremely will sonsidering all the crap that was trown at him.:dodge: As have you and TDL. Well done.:2thumbsup

Gotta say though, the persecution of oldrider was about the most abysmal thing I've seen on here. Ya really got to see who was made of what. Fucking disgusting, and nothing passive about it.

Aye, the impeachment lies and not being able to do anything about it must have been a right pain in the arse to have to deal with, let alone the stolen election. Having said that, he must be used to it given that these sorts of things are business and not personal.

[Bonez]

Gotta say though, the persecution of oldrider was about the most abysmal thing I've seen on here. Ya really got to see who was made of what. Fucking disgusting, and nothing passive about it.

Aye, the impeachment lies and not being able to do anything about it must have been a right pain in the arse to have to deal with, let alone the stolen election. Having said that, he must be used to it given that these sorts of things are business and not personal.
I'd imagine other KB members like sidecar bob and others Just got sick of thje KB knitting Circles Ladys shit posts for over 5 years. I know Voltiar is over at advrider now. I whatched the posts for three weeks so I could get a handle on what was going on before rejoining. In the first week pritch put me on ignore the poor dear.. It took Laava and F5 Dave a bit longer than expected but we got there in the end.:clap:

Trump and his staff hung in there for all it's worth and are for better people than the Sisters Grim IMHO.:rolleyes:

[onearmedbandit]

I dislike Trump. Only because I dislike all politicians. But what I dislike even more is the media and the influence they have over people. And here we go. Many shaped their attacks on Trump based on what their 'trusted' source of news told them. I'm not saying they did this with intent, I'm just using it to illustrate that not everything that is printed is fit for consumption.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/the-story-was-a-hoax-donald-trump-hits-out-after-washington-post-admits-it-published-false-quotes/N4SFP4TDMWHGOQZBTOLS2UIVBA/

And yes I realise I'm using what the media is telling me but it does provide more insight into why we can't just believe everything we are told.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah so some sloppy journalism there. Should have been more careful but people memory is a bit crap and they paraphrase what they hear when called to repeat.

"In the call, Trump repeatedly tells Watson that he won the state and that "something bad happened". He tells the investigator that she would be "praised" when the "right answer comes out"."

So he's fucking lying and trying to pressure underlings to collude the lie. That's a shitty abuse of power right there. I fuking hate bullies.

[TheDemonLord]

I dislike Trump. Only because I dislike all politicians. But what I dislike even more is the media and the influence they have over people. And here we go. Many shaped their attacks on Trump based on what their 'trusted' source of news told them. I'm not saying they did this with intent, I'm just using it to illustrate that not everything that is printed is fit for consumption.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/the-story-was-a-hoax-donald-trump-hits-out-after-washington-post-admits-it-published-false-quotes/N4SFP4TDMWHGOQZBTOLS2UIVBA/

And yes I realise I'm using what the media is telling me but it does provide more insight into why we can't just believe everything we are told.

And then people wonder why people like me automatically assume that when 'the media' says something about Trump, my first response is that it's either a Lie or at best it's been very selectively edited...

Because it turns out - that once again - after all the Media Hubbub, all the 'Smoking Guns', All the 'Investigations' - Trump, Once again, Comes out cleaner than a Nun's Cunt.

[Bonez]

Yeah so some sloppy journalism there. Should have been more careful but people memory is a bit crap and they paraphrase what they hear when called to repeat.

"In the call, Trump repeatedly tells Watson that he won the state and that "something bad happened". He tells the investigator that she would be "praised" when the "right answer comes out"."

So he's fucking lying and trying to pressure underlings to collude the lie. That's a shitty abuse of power right there. I fuking hate bullies.
OHH the irony. You are a fucking bully lol.:brick:

[R650R]

And then people wonder why people like me automatically assume that when 'the media' says something about Trump, my first response is that it's either a Lie or at best it's been very selectively edited...

Because it turns out - that once again - after all the Media Hubbub, all the 'Smoking Guns', All the 'Investigations' - Trump, Once again, Comes out cleaner than a Nun's Cunt.

I guess with all the leftist meddling in the education system that The Boy Who Cried Wolf is no longer required reading at kindergarten. Let’s all dance in our rainbow colours with the wiggles tho that will be so useful.

Given what a certain member here says about the church though a few of those nuns prob need a visit to the clinic of his allegations are true....

What will the next “ unnamed Whitehouse officials” or “sources in Republican Party” alledgey alledge???!

[mashman]

I'd imagine other KB members like sidecar bob and others Just got sick of thje KB knitting Circles Ladys shit posts for over 5 years. I know Voltiar is over at advrider now. I whatched the posts for three weeks so I could get a handle on what was going on before rejoining. In the first week pritch put me on ignore the poor dear.. It took Laava and F5 Dave a bit longer than expected but we got there in the end.:clap:

Trump and his staff hung in there for all it's worth and are for better people than the Sisters Grim IMHO.:rolleyes:

I've got an unused hurt feelings form if you want one :bleh:

They did indeed hang in there. Tough gig after one of the opposition gives the green light for them to be vilified wherever they go simply for doing their job. Just straight up ugly dehumanising bullshit that's supported far and wide it seems.

[mashman]

I dislike Trump. Only because I dislike all politicians. But what I dislike even more is the media and the influence they have over people. And here we go. Many shaped their attacks on Trump based on what their 'trusted' source of news told them. I'm not saying they did this with intent, I'm just using it to illustrate that not everything that is printed is fit for consumption.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/the-story-was-a-hoax-donald-trump-hits-out-after-washington-post-admits-it-published-false-quotes/N4SFP4TDMWHGOQZBTOLS2UIVBA/

And yes I realise I'm using what the media is telling me but it does provide more insight into why we can't just believe everything we are told.

The video that was made for Trump's second impeachment was done in the same spirit. Not quite lies (but really outright lies), but certainly nowhere near the full truth either.

[Bonez]

I've got an unused hurt feelings form if you want one :bleh:

They did indeed hang in there. Tough gig after one of the opposition gives the green light for them to be vilified wherever they go simply for doing their job. Just straight up ugly dehumanising bullshit that's supported far and wide it seems.
Lol.

When Bumbling Bobs report was done I couldn't believe the Democrats would read the thing vebatum live. It was like kind garden kids reading a page of a Noody book.What a waste of time and resources,I pet pritch sat in front of the telly drooling through the whole feasco. And then Richard Madcows fairy tale.


2024 will be very interesting. All the lefties trying to make sure Trump can not run is very pathetioc imho. They've certainly dropped their panties and exposed their all once again

[pritch]

Did you hear the one about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac? He wakes up at 2.29AM and paces the room wrestling with the question, Is there a Dog?

[TheDemonLord]

Did you hear the one about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac? He wakes up at 2.29AM and paces the room wrestling with the question, Is there a Dog?

Is he related to the Dyslexic Witch who was burned at the stake for Worshiping Santa?

[sugilite]

Well, obviously - I follow Brexit related things a bit, since y'know....

Here's another side of his:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF3OQkWEyZA

The right-honorable member for the 19th Century, Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg against James O'Brien and this shows what happens when he meets someone that is equally well prepared and his mask slips.

And what is truly interesting is that this was done 2 years ago, and we can see whether or not any of the predictions James made came true - and it turns out they haven't and it appears (with the Covid Vaccination scandal) that leaving the EU has benefited the UK quite nicely. Double ironic because one of the claims of the Remoaners was that Brexit will stop the UK from accessing "Life saving Medical supplies"

Finally had a few minutes to watch a bit of this, not all of it. Neither seemed to land a knockout blow, both seemed well informed enough to have a decent conversation about it. As far as pollies go, he seems ok actually. Watched the 1st 6 mins, skipped about at the end waiting for a meltdown, none observed. Media always exaggerates problems no matter what side of the political divide.
Case in point, right wing media going on and on about dems cancelling Dr Seuss when it was the publisher, and washington post making up trump quotes. So meh.

[Bonez]

Finally had a few minutes to watch a bit of this, not all of it. Neither seemed to land a knockout blow, both seemed well informed enough to have a decent conversation about it. As far as pollies go, he seems ok actually. Watched the 1st 6 mins, skipped about at the end waiting for a meltdown, none observed. Media always exaggerates problems no matter what side of the political divide.
Case in point, right wing media going on and on about dems cancelling Dr Seuss when it was the publisher, and washington post making up trump quotes. So meh.So you only watched a BIT of the video Numbnuts not the WHOLE video., How then can you come to a conclusion without watching the WHOLE video prey tell?:killingme

[pritch]

As far as pollies go, he seems ok actually.

You just don't know him well enough? He is very pro Brexit, but before the date Brexit kicked in he moved his businesses to Ireland. The mere sight of him pisses me off.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/09/why-it-matters-jacob-rees-mogg-was-reclining-house-commons

[TheDemonLord]

You just don't know him well enough? He is very pro Brexit, but before the date Brexit kicked in he moved his businesses to Ireland. The mere sight of him pisses me off.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/09/why-it-matters-jacob-rees-mogg-was-reclining-house-commons

Yes, he is very Pro-Brexit, but he didn't move his businesses to Ireland.

He moved a single investment fund (one of many, some in the UK, some overseas) to Ireland.

As for the Reclining - the Memes that were generated were hilarious (and he even had a good laugh at some of them himself) - However he was present for the entire debate and participated in it.

But god, heaven forbid someone reclines in a chair...

[TheDemonLord]

Finally had a few minutes to watch a bit of this, not all of it. Neither seemed to land a knockout blow, both seemed well informed enough to have a decent conversation about it. As far as pollies go, he seems ok actually. Watched the 1st 6 mins, skipped about at the end waiting for a meltdown, none observed. Media always exaggerates problems no matter what side of the political divide.


Suffice to say - I like JRM, mainly because he's very witty, unashamedly a British Toff (in every sense of the word), happy to take the piss out of himself but most importantly:

He tends towards the classic strand of British Conservative Liberalism that I like. Let the people decide for themselves and let the government have the smallest input into peoples lives as possible.

As for the interview - James just seems conceited for the whole thing, as if it's a chore for him to talk to JRM and that Jame's position is so self-evidently right that it's beneath him to discuss it with JRM. That's my personal take - however the Knock out blow for me was the discussion on Australian Beef. James is trying to paint a picture of international trade that is obviously nonsense. Countries can trade with each other with an agreement to respect each sides standards but without one country having legal superiority over the other.

That he would attempt to make sure a claim is proof the absurdity of his Claims. But as I said in my original post - it's the fact that after Brexit, some of the key Remainer claims have been shown to be definitively false.


Case in point, right wing media going on and on about dems cancelling Dr Seuss when it was the publisher, and washington post making up trump quotes. So meh.

There's a difference between lazy attributation - Saying it's the Democrats cancelling Dr Seuss, whereas it would be more correct to say 'Radical Left Wing Activists' (which is the Democrats at this point...) pressured the publisher to cancel. And outright making shit up.

And yes, I'll grant you every accusation of bias in my summation of that, that you want.

[sugilite]

You just don't know him well enough? He is very pro Brexit, but before the date Brexit kicked in he moved his businesses to Ireland. The mere sight of him pisses me off.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/09/why-it-matters-jacob-rees-mogg-was-reclining-house-commons
I just assume all pollies have their self interest at heart, it is in their DNA. I liked the way he spoke. I did not have the knowledge of brexit to form an opinion on the validity of what he was saying.


Suffice to say - I like JRM, mainly because he's very witty, unashamedly a British Toff (in every sense of the word), happy to take the piss out of himself but most importantly:

He tends towards the classic strand of British Conservative Liberalism that I like. Let the people decide for themselves and let the government have the smallest input into peoples lives as possible.
Well, as mentioned I do not have the knowledge or inclination to gain it to evaluate what he was saying, but he was watchable, as was ine interviewer. Not like that yank dribble. I cannot stand maddow, lemon, ari and ilk, Same goes for Hanity, tucker and judge moron over at fox. They are all shit.


As for the interview - James just seems conceited for the whole thing, as if it's a chore for him to talk to JRM and that Jame's position is so self-evidently right that it's beneath him to discuss it with JRM. That's my personal take - however the Knock out blow for me was the discussion on Australian Beef. James is trying to paint a picture of international trade that is obviously nonsense. Countries can trade with each other with an agreement to respect each sides standards but without one country having legal superiority over the other.
Yeah, agree with that, but knockout blow? More a straight right to the chops.



There's a difference between lazy attributation - Saying it's the Democrats cancelling Dr Seuss, whereas it would be more correct to say 'Radical Left Wing Activists' (which is the Democrats at this point...) pressured the publisher to cancel. And outright making shit up.

And yes, I'll grant you every accusation of bias in my summation of that, that you want.
Did the publisher state that they were coming under pressure from left wing radicals? My limited perception as I have not studied the pooh out of it - is that the publisher took it upon themselves.
I saw an illustration from one of the books in question and thought it was a big nothing.

The two examples I gave were not meant to be directly compared. Both right wing and left wing media agencies are as bad as each other. Plenty of examples of out right lies and misdirection can be found in both camps.

[Viking01]

....

That he would attempt to make sure a claim is proof the absurdity of his Claims. But as I said in my original post - it's the fact that after Brexit, some of the key Remainer claims have been shown to be definitively false.

....

Just out of curiosity, were any of the Brexiter claims equally shown to be false ? ;)

[F5 Dave]

Funnily enough I was listening to a podcast at 5am (The detail so NZ) and it turns out Dr Seuss Estate withdrew 6 titles only of their own decision. So none of that is quite correct.

Cancel Culture? Well there's several ways to look at it. One extreme is for us old white guys to get all very shouty, as we were quite comfortable being able to look down on everyone else- and who dare attack our right to be superior? And control the nice stuff.

Or we can be honest and admit evolution of society is required. Women are allowed to vote can you imagine?

How we get to a fair and equitable society is the difficult part. Taking drastically opposing sides is of course the very worst way to do it.

[TheDemonLord]

Just out of curiosity, were any of the Brexiter claims equally shown to be false ? ;)

Of the big ones, you could probably hold up the 39 Billion pounds as probably the biggest falsehood - but that's really about it.

Whereas the big Remain claims so far haven't happened.

[pritch]

Cancel Culture? Well there's several ways to look at it.

The right are as good at cancel cuture as anybody else. I offer, for those who may recall: The Dixie Chicks, Colin Kaepernick and Kathy Griffin.

[TheDemonLord]

Did the publisher state that they were coming under pressure from left wing radicals? My limited perception as I have not studied the pooh out of it - is that the publisher took it upon themselves.
I saw an illustration from one of the books in question and thought it was a big nothing.

Whether direct pressure (as in letters, campaigns) or more the implicit milieu of that industry (which, would be fair to say, is left-leaning as with most creative industries) - It's the same social forces IMO.

As you said - you've seen the Illustration - I've read Dr Seuss as a Child and I've read it to my Kids - nothing about the illustrations ever suggested Racism to me.

On the other hand, I've still got a copy of Tintin and Blue Lotus and various Asterix books - and even me, with my Staunchly libertarian views, look at some of those drawings as 'This is a bit Spicy...'

[mashman]

Lol.

When Bumbling Bobs report was done I couldn't believe the Democrats would read the thing vebatum live. It was like kind garden kids reading a page of a Noody book.What a waste of time and resources,I pet pritch sat in front of the telly drooling through the whole feasco. And then Richard Madcows fairy tale.


2024 will be very interesting. All the lefties trying to make sure Trump can not run is very pathetioc imho. They've certainly dropped their panties and exposed their all once again

To be honest I watched very little of the left and right wing show. There's never anything of any real substance spoken of, and the only thing I wanted to see from Trump he couldn't deliver.
Having said that, I reckon they should read out every single word of every single document they expect the representatives of 'we the people' to sign, coz it's highly likely that that'll be the only time that those representatives get anywhere near putting what they've heard about a thing into context... and given the number of documents that sleepy joe signed, unsigned, undid, whatever he did and the extras that his mob want, I doubt that there's enough time in the day to do so. It may curtail the never ending cycle of creating and uncreating 'rules' because for some reason they don't work in their current form and therefore need thousands of focus groups to figure out a thousand ways to fix the 1 problem.

I hope not coz that really don't solve the division thing much innit i.e. hate hate hate, keep the Republicrat hate machine going at all costs... coz it clearly turns supposed intelligent human beings into foolish tits that'll wait until the next time to be fooled again by the next glorious leader spat forth by the machine.

[husaberg]

Just out of curiosity, were any of the Brexiter claims equally shown to be false ? ;)
You mean like johnsons illegal decision to suspend parliament.

the British Supreme Court ruled that Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament was unlawful.

[sugilite]

Whether direct pressure (as in letters, campaigns) or more the implicit milieu of that industry (which, would be fair to say, is left-leaning as with most creative industries) - It's the same social forces IMO.


So you are just assuming/guessing that the publishers were pressured then? No actual evidence as such?

[F5 Dave]

So why does thinking need to be labeled left or right? (Insert Demon as applicable). Maybe there us just evolution of what is acceptable. Whipping your slaves to death because you are angry for any particular reason is no longer acceptable. Is that leftist pressure?

[Bonez]

So you are just assuming/guessing that the publishers were pressured then? No actual evidence as such?:nya: OH the irony!

Just saying...

[Viking01]

Of the big ones, you could probably hold up the 39 Billion pounds as probably the biggest falsehood - but that's really about it.

Whereas the big Remain claims so far haven't happened.

Thanks for the reply.

I suppose that if you look at the basic planks that underpinned the Brexit Referendum itself (as opposed to specific goals and objectives that followed), then I agree your answer is correct.

Planks
The planks supporting Brexit ( about 7 that I can recall) are as follows:

1. Threat to UK Sovereignty.
- Where the UK saw a progressive shift of power to the EU bureaucracy in Brussels. Where the UK considered that it was "losing power and influence", relative to the % of dues paid to the EU.

2. The EU was Restricting the UK in Terms of Unnecessary Regulations.
- Gove argued that this was costing the UK some Stg 600 mln a week in terms of "lost UK productivity" (though this was disputed).

3. The EU was focused more on supporting corporate interests, which in turn prevented the UK from conducting its own "radical" reforms.
- I couldn't find mention of any specific instances of "radical" UK reforms being called out (despite a quick online search).

4. Use of the Euro Currency was not desired.
- Despite the fact that the UK managed and used its own currency (Stg), think that this reflected UK unwillingness for tighter political and fiscal integration with the EU. Fingers were pointed at the ability (?) of the EU EC to react to major changes in economic situation, giving Greece (2014) and Spain (2015) as examples.

5. The EU was allowing too many immigrants in.
- Supposedly due to the fear that Eastern and Southern European workers were depressing wages of UK workers. In addition, large numbers of ME and African people had been leaving their home countries (due to war) and flooding into the EU since at least 2015.

6. The UK could implement a more rational immigration system.
- That the UK would benefit from introducing its own "points based" system, where it could better limit immigration to more skilled workers (not economic or political migrants) and to those who spoke English (better).

7. The UK could retain the money (Stg 39 bln) that it currently paid to the EU in annual dues.
- This represented a gross figure, whereas a UK deduction (approx 28%) was made upfront before payment by the UK to the EU (a net figure). Boris's Brexit tour bus displayed the gross amount (Stg 350 mln per week) for which he was criticised.
- That while much of the UK dues paid related to provision of services , it was argued that this should be retained by the UK government itself (which would be better able to decide upon its distribution). There was a reasonable amount of discussion (suggestion?) that the money would be used to improve both UK Health (NHS) and Education.

So, the last plank, subject to some distortion in the lead-up to the UK Brexit vote, was also the only tangible / measurable one that I could see.

English Terminology
[I did notice that you used the word "falsehood" in your post. :msn-wink:
1. Is that the same as a "lie", but just a little more up-market ? e.g. I might "lie", but Boris or Rees Mogg would "perpetrate a falsehood" ?.
2. Or is it more like a "low fat" lie ? You can make more of them in one sitting (Parliament), and you don't feel so guilty ?
3. What do you call some-one who "perpetrates a falsehood"? ]

Claims Made
It was probably within subsequent stages (e.g. the Transition period leading to UK Parliament signing of Brexit intent in 2019, and during the Brexit Agreement negotiation phase in 2020) that I find UK claims and behaviour to have been most puzzling e.g.


Supposed Brexit Benefits
- Farage and the Brexit Party in June 2019 claiming that there would be a Stg 200 bln "Brexit dividend". This later appeared to include assumptions re the distribution of the Stg 39 bln dues mentioned earlier, the scrapping of a Stg 14 bln foreign aid budget, and cancellation of the UK HS1 high-speed rail project - approx Stg 80-100 bln).

Supposed Ease of Concluding a UK-EU Agreement
- That it would be "the easiest trade deal in history". That Brexit Agreement negotiation would be quite "rapid", and that drafting and signing of the Brexit Agreement would be completed within 11 months (by Christmas 2020) "as most of the work has already been done".
- The EU has never negotiated a trade deal with another party in such a short time (e.g. the EU-Canada FTA required seven years to complete).

Ease of Trade Movement Across UK - EU Borders
- That there will be no barriers to UK - EU trade ("frictionless trade") due to a new high tech Customs solution to be introduced by the UK ("no forms, no checks, no barriers"). Which has since failed to perform up to expectation.
- That there would be little impact upon the Irish "Good Friday" Agreement governing the Northern Ireland / Eire border.

Political Integrity of the UK
- That the UK Union would be made "stronger" by Brexit (despite the predominant "Remain" vote for both Scotland and Northern Ireland).

Negotiation of Other FTA's in Parallel
- That the UK would use the Transition Period (up to start of UK-EU Brexit negotiation) to negotiate and conclude FTA's with other third parties (such as the UK colonies). These seem to have been few and far between.

Industrial and Financial Migration
- That the UK economy was still "strong" over the 4-5 years of the Transition and Agreement Negotiation periods. By end of 2019, the UK had already suffered a Stg 70 bln financial hit.
That this was not a concern, despite the fact that: (i) many major industrial groups were already moving and re-establishing in Ireland or the EU (ii) major car firms - such as Honda and Nissan - planned to cease UK operation due to their likely inability to operate JIT manufacturing (iii) many banks and financial instiutions domiciled in London (the City) started migrating parts of their physical operation and their trading activity to the EU (e.g. Frankfurt).

Financial Equivalence
- That UK financial organisations (despite London being a major global money laundering centre) believed that the EU would be willing to offer an "equivalence arrangement", despite the UK no longer being an EU member and subject to its laws and regulations.
- Despite the size and value of the UK financial industry in London, the net result was that the UK financial sector did not reach any agreement during the Brexit negotiation phase, and it must still conduct such negotiation during 2021-22 (post the Brexit Agreement having gone into live operation).
- In the meantime, the volumes of certain financial activity (e.g. bond trading) has shifted significantly in the EU's favour.
- Even if the UK decided to establish new off-shore "tax havens" (with fewer restrictions upon their operation), their interaction with EU financial entities will still require them to be subject to rules of the EU jurisdiction.

Fisheries
- That while the UK would regain control over its fisheries (and likely choose to limit quota to EU fishing firms from Norway, Denmark, Netherlands and France), this would be a "boon' to the UK. Despite it only contributing about 1.5% to GDP.
- That this seemed to ignore the facts that (i) most of the UK fish processing was occurring within EU processing plants - continuity? (ii) the UK home fishing fleet had been depleted significantly since the 1970's, and did not have either the ships or the manpower to be able to exploit the increased quota.

The following timeline for Brexit might be of interest.

https://www.dw.com/en/brexit-timeline-from-doom-to-dust/a-55956451

[pritch]

Yep. It's all going swimmingly. Now the EU is threatening legal action against the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/10/brexit-eu-poised-to-take-legal-action-against-uk-over-northern-ireland

[mashman]

MI Court: Michigan Secretary of State’s Absentee Ballot Order Broke Law, Vindicating Trump Claim (https://www.breitbart.com/2020-election/2021/03/16/mi-court-michigan-secretary-of-states-absentee-ballot-order-broke-law-vindicating-trump-claim/)... I wonder if hearing the case earlier would have added a little more gravitas to Trumps claims.

[Bonez]

MI Court: Michigan Secretary of State’s Absentee Ballot Order Broke Law, Vindicating Trump Claim (https://www.breitbart.com/2020-election/2021/03/16/mi-court-michigan-secretary-of-states-absentee-ballot-order-broke-law-vindicating-trump-claim/)... I wonder if hearing the case earlier would have added a little more gravitas to Trumps claims.Interesting. This could snowball very quickly.

[mashman]

Interesting. This could snowball very quickly.

Until appeal ;)

[Bonez]

Until appeal ;)And the poo flinging.:msn-wink:

[TheDemonLord]

So you are just assuming/guessing that the publishers were pressured then? No actual evidence as such?

Let's just say I've heard the same tune sung before by the same Choir, from the same songsheet and by the same conductor.

I'm also fairly confident to say that neither Dr Seuss' estate or the Publishing house are hardcore conservatives or staunch libertarians...

[TheDemonLord]

So why does thinking need to be labeled left or right? (Insert Demon as applicable). Maybe there us just evolution of what is acceptable. Whipping your slaves to death because you are angry for any particular reason is no longer acceptable. Is that leftist pressure?

And How many Slaves were whipped to death as either a direct result of, or in the books of Dr Seuss?

None?

Getting back to the books: It's very clear which strain of ideological thought is responsible for this - and I'm going to further presume that most people here have read Dr Seuss, as either a child or as a Parent - and the fundamental question is this:

How many of you that have looked at ANY Dr Seuss drawing and thought: "This is Racist" or more specifically "Man, I never knew how much I hated those N... Dr Seuss has really shown me the truth"

I'm also going to suggest the answer is also 'None'.

This is not an Evolution, this is a sustained attack on our culture by the Woke brigade who are hell bent on destroying everything of past culture (like all Revolutionary Communists....)

[mashman]

And the poo flinging.:msn-wink:

heh... yes. Tis the only way to solve the status quo: We have evidence for and evidence against. We don't want the evidence for to exist or at the very least it needs to look silly so that all who mention it, believers or not, will also be seen as silly. A food fight is a waste of food... may as well decide the lot by slinging the physical instead of the persistent metaphorical for a change.

[Bonez]

And How many Slaves were whipped to death as either a direct result of, or in the books of Dr Seuss?

None?

Getting back to the books: It's very clear which strain of ideological thought is responsible for this - and I'm going to further presume that most people here have read Dr Seuss, as either a child or as a Parent - and the fundamental question is this:

How many of you that have looked at ANY Dr Seuss drawing and thought: "This is Racist" or more specifically "Man, I never knew how much I hated those N... Dr Seuss has really shown me the truth"

I'm also going to suggest the answer is also 'None'.

This is not an Evolution, this is a sustained attack on our culture by the Woke brigade who are hell bent on destroying everything of past culture (like all Revolutionary Communists....)We never questioned why Noody and Big Ears shared a bed together either.

Or that Golly Wog was a nigger.

[sugilite]

I'm also fairly confident to say that neither Dr Seuss' estate or the Publishing house are hardcore conservatives or staunch libertarians...
Now I'm intrigued! You know the Seuss' estate and publishing people personally?

There once was a demonlord, who while at "work" would get rather bored. Now he liked a good Seuss story, almost as much as a cashed up pro brexit tory.
So while fending off another sugi zinger, he would flatten that with an overweight democrat opera singer!
When work was over, it was on the bike for a blat, looking suspiciously like a modern day cat in an odd shaped hat.
Who is this cat in an odd shaped hat, riding the bike that goes blat, blat, blat - why that that would be the guy on the hunt for a questionable stat. Or something like that - that cheshire grinning cat :msn-wink:

[TheDemonLord]

Now I'm intrigued! You know the Seuss' estate and publishing people personally?

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.


There once was a demonlord, who while at "work" would get rather bored. Now he liked a good Seuss story, almost as much as a cashed up pro brexit tory.
So while fending off another sugi zinger, he would flatten that with an overweight democrat opera singer!
When work was over, it was on the bike for a blat, looking suspiciously like a modern day cat in an odd shaped hat.
Who is this cat in an odd shaped hat, riding the bike that goes blat, blat, blat - why that that would be the guy on the hunt for a questionable stat. Or something like that - that cheshire grinning cat :msn-wink:

Are we doing Poetry?

Okay:

Hello all, I am Sugilite.
I'm back in NZ, on an airline flight
Occasionally upon politics I bite
I'm not on the left but neither the right
When people upset me I ignore them out of sight
This KB forum can sometimes be a plight.
What's this? Covid? That gives me a Fright!
And now I'm down in the Dump
I hate Donald Trump
He gives me the Hump!
And so for relief I poke the DemonLord
For I know he will reply, because he is Bored.
And things that he says, well they leave me Floored!
Now on this new issue, he makes claims I dismissed
For with DL, it's always those pesky old Socialists
and despite all the signs that they're nouveau Communists
Such as we are trained Marxists
and here is our protest symbol, a fist.
Au Contraire, these counter-points leave me pissed
And so I will ping-pong with the one called Bonez
Do we love or hate? we can't tell from the Moans
And so with this poem, that's inflated like loans
Shall be finished off - as I hate typing on phones.

[Bonez]

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.



Are we doing Poetry?

Okay:

Hello all, I am Sugilite.
I'm back in NZ, on an airline flight
Occasionally upon politics I bite
I'm not on the left but neither the right
When people upset me I ignore them out of sight
This KB forum can sometimes be a plight.
What's this? Covid? That gives me a Fright!
And now I'm down in the Dump
I hate Donald Trump
He gives me the Hump!
And so for relief I poke the DemonLord
For I know he will reply, because he is Bored.
And things that he says, well they leave me Floored!
Now on this new issue, he makes claims I dismissed
For with DL, it's always those pesky old Socialists
and despite all the signs that they're nouveau Communists
Such as we are trained Marxists
and here is our protest symbol, a fist.
Au Contraire, these counter-points leave me pissed
And so I will ping-pong with the one called Bonez
Do we love or hate? we can't tell from the Moans
And so with this poem, that's inflated like loans
Shall be finished off - as I hate typing on phones.

EXCELENT TDL :laugh::laugh::laugh::drinknsin:corn::woohoo:

[sugilite]

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.
Hello all, I am Sugilite.
I'm back in NZ, on an airline flight
Occasionally upon politics I bite
I'm not on the left but neither the right
When people upset me I ignore them out of sight
This KB forum can sometimes be a plight.
What's this? Covid? That gives me a Fright!
And now I'm down in the Dump
I hate Donald Trump
He gives me the Hump!
And so for relief I poke the DemonLord
For I know he will reply, because he is Bored.
And things that he says, well they leave me Floored!
Now on this new issue, he makes claims I dismissed
For with DL, it's always those pesky old Socialists
and despite all the signs that they're nouveau Communists
Such as we are trained Marxists
and here is our protest symbol, a fist.
Au Contraire, these counter-points leave me pissed
And so I will ping-pong with the one called Bonez
Do we love or hate? we can't tell from the Moans
And so with this poem, that's inflated like loans
Shall be finished off - as I hate typing on phones.

Nice effort mate, just a handful of points off for no Dr Seuss stylz :niceone:

[sugilite]

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.

Over 60 lost trials for Trumps failed attempt at circumnavigating the election results, but still not enough evidence for you.
A wisp of circumstantial evidence on Dr Seuss books being cancelled by radical dems and BOOM a reasonable conclusion can be made.
Classy mate :laugh:

[TheDemonLord]

Over 60 lost trials for Trumps failed attempt at circumnavigating the election results, but still not enough evidence for you.
A wisp of circumstantial evidence on Dr Seuss books being cancelled by radical dems and BOOM a reasonable conclusion can be made.
Classy mate :laugh:

Different standards of Proof.

[Bonez]

Over 60 lost trials for Trumps failed attempt at circumnavigating the election results, but still not enough evidence for you.
A wisp of circumstantial evidence on Dr Seuss books being cancelled by radical dems and BOOM a reasonable conclusion can be made.
Classy mate :laugh:It was 59 out of 60 numbnuts. You really should do your research before you post shit.

[sugilite]

Different standards of Proof.
Evidently so!

[F5 Dave]

Ah, Circumstantial Evidence.

Read; - making a first opinion based on your prejudices, and vehemently denying any evidence to the contrary whilst embracing anecdotal stories, no matter how flimsy.

Bit sad really.


He lost because he was an incompetent cunt, so bad that even a slug like Biden could beat him. Just face it.

And no I can't read your response, but I'll assume it to be ridiculous and ill founded

[Bonez]

Ah, Circumstantial Evidence.

Read; - making a first opinion based on your prejudices, and vehemently denying any evidence to the contrary whilst embracing anecdotal stories, no matter how flimsy.

Bit sad really.


He lost because he was an incompetent cunt, so bad that even a slug like Biden could beat him. Just face it.

And no I can't read your response, but I'll assume it to be ridiculous and ill foundedOH! the fucken irony:lol:

You KB Knitting Circle Ladys have been doing that for the last five years.:laugh:

[TheDemonLord]

So, I'm going to preface this with - lots of things in here I agree with, so for the sake of attempted Brevity, I'm going to omit them.



English Terminology
[I did notice that you used the word "falsehood" in your post. :msn-wink:
1. Is that the same as a "lie", but just a little more up-market ? e.g. I might "lie", but Boris or Rees Mogg would "perpetrate a falsehood" ?.
2. Or is it more like a "low fat" lie ? You can make more of them in one sitting (Parliament), and you don't feel so guilty ?
3. What do you call some-one who "perpetrates a falsehood"? ]

All Politicians Lie, or least, tell the truth from their perspective - however the overall claim of 'if we leave the EU, we don't have to pay the members fee' IMO was true, the ancillary parts of 'we will spend it all on the NHS' - well, that had the faint whiff of Bullshit about it.


Claims Made
It was probably within subsequent stages (e.g. the Transition period leading to UK Parliament signing of Brexit intent in 2019, and during the Brexit Agreement negotiation phase in 2020) that I find UK claims and behaviour to have been most puzzling e.g.

So before I whip through the below - There's 2 points I'm going to quickly raise:

1: With 2020 being the year that is was, Many things - Brexit included were overshadowed by the Covid
2: There is still a lot of deeply held opposition to Brexit within the Civil Service - Bureaucrats like Bureaucracy.


Supposed Brexit Benefits
- Farage and the Brexit Party in June 2019 claiming that there would be a Stg 200 bln "Brexit dividend". This later appeared to include assumptions re the distribution of the Stg 39 bln dues mentioned earlier, the scrapping of a Stg 14 bln foreign aid budget, and cancellation of the UK HS1 high-speed rail project - approx Stg 80-100 bln).

If memory serves on this one - but HS2 (which is the contentious one, HS1 is already built I think) and the Foreign Aid Budget both have ties to EU Policy - I'm not sure if this is explicit legislation or one of the many 'Suggestions' which Member states are expected to abide by. Leaving the EU means that HS2 could be scrapped.


Supposed Ease of Concluding a UK-EU Agreement
- That it would be "the easiest trade deal in history". That Brexit Agreement negotiation would be quite "rapid", and that drafting and signing of the Brexit Agreement would be completed within 11 months (by Christmas 2020) "as most of the work has already been done".
- The EU has never negotiated a trade deal with another party in such a short time (e.g. the EU-Canada FTA required seven years to complete).

The theory behind why the Trade deal should be the easiest in history is sound - namely that at the point of exiting the EU, Britain and the EU have perfect regulatory alignment - which is usually one of the sticking point of a Trade Deal. However many Pro-Brexiteers would usually add in the caveat that this is all dependent on the EU negotiating in Good Faith - something which I myself don't believe they've done - mainly on the back that there are other Nations who are looking to see how Britain does from Brexit, and so the EU has a vested interest in Brexit being a failure for Britain and a success for the EU, lest other unhappy Member states decide to leave.


Ease of Trade Movement Across UK - EU Borders
- That there will be no barriers to UK - EU trade ("frictionless trade") due to a new high tech Customs solution to be introduced by the UK ("no forms, no checks, no barriers"). Which has since failed to perform up to expectation.

My understanding here is that Goods coming into the UK are fine, but the delay is for Goods exiting the UK, entering the EU - see earlier point about the EU having a vested interest in Brexit being a failure for my perspective on this. That said, I think it's also fair to say that with such a massive change, there will be initial issues to be sorted and with the post-Covid world these are being exasperated.


- That there would be little impact upon the Irish "Good Friday" Agreement governing the Northern Ireland / Eire border.

I think it's important to be clear that the UK said it would not put up any borders in Ireland. If the EU requires Ireland to put a border with Northern Ireland, then that's an issue for Ireland and the EU to fight about - obviously the last thing anyone wants is a return to the Troubles.


Political Integrity of the UK
- That the UK Union would be made "stronger" by Brexit (despite the predominant "Remain" vote for both Scotland and Northern Ireland).

Scotland had Indyref, they choose to remain, and Northern Ireland was primarily motivate by the above fear of an Irish Border. However currently Scotland has the SNP in power and well, the less said about them the better.


Negotiation of Other FTA's in Parallel
- That the UK would use the Transition Period (up to start of UK-EU Brexit negotiation) to negotiate and conclude FTA's with other third parties (such as the UK colonies). These seem to have been few and far between.

Pretty much Covid was the culprit here I feel - I know that Aus, NZ and the US (at least under Trump) were all keen for a Trade Deal, but everything in the UK pretty much stopped and focused on Covid - and I'll be honest there are many things that the Tories should have been doing AS WELL as Covid during that time - such as Boris defending the statues of Winston Churchill, so it's not like this is just a Brexit thing where the Focus has lapses.




Industrial and Financial Migration
- That the UK economy was still "strong" over the 4-5 years of the Transition and Agreement Negotiation periods. By end of 2019, the UK had already suffered a Stg 70 bln financial hit.
That this was not a concern, despite the fact that: (i) many major industrial groups were already moving and re-establishing in Ireland or the EU (ii) major car firms - such as Honda and Nissan - planned to cease UK operation due to their likely inability to operate JIT manufacturing (iii) many banks and financial instiutions domiciled in London (the City) started migrating parts of their physical operation and their trading activity to the EU (e.g. Frankfurt).

If memory serves the EU had also suffered similar financial issues in the time period - and that the UK downturn wasn't as severe as the one suffered by those using the Euro.

In regards to businesses moving or looking to move - Big Business doesn't like change, and certainly putting several eggs in several baskets isn't unwise - I think time will tell on this - ultimately if too many business start to move their operations, the UK government would be free from EU regulations to offer incentives for them to stay. I'm skipping the next paragraph since I feel that my reply is here is also suited to it.



Fisheries
- That while the UK would regain control over its fisheries (and likely choose to limit quota to EU fishing firms from Norway, Denmark, Netherlands and France), this would be a "boon' to the UK. Despite it only contributing about 1.5% to GDP.
- That this seemed to ignore the facts that (i) most of the UK fish processing was occurring within EU processing plants - continuity? (ii) the UK home fishing fleet had been depleted significantly since the 1970's, and did not have either the ships or the manpower to be able to exploit the increased quota.

So I happen to have Relatives that live in what would be considered 'Fishing villages' and have holidayed there regularly - the Damage done to the local economies by the CFP has been immense, it may be a small percent of the overall GDP, but the key factor for them is where that GDP is located - most of those seaside towns have 2 sources of income: Fish (which is an all-year round thing) and the Tourist season - As the Fishing income declined, so to did the regional economy, leading to less investment and the places starting to look shabby, this impacted the tourist Pounds and it's really been bad for them.

I'm also disappointed in how much the Tories gave to the EU, I'd have been perfectly happy with a parking one QE Class Aircraft carrier on the Western approaches and another off the coast of Gibraltar and telling the Spanish and French fishing fleets that there will be no warning shots across the bow.

The other thing that is causal to this is that traditionally British caught fish (Cod, Haddock etc.) were the backbone of the Fish and Chips takeaway market - which aren't processed in the EU, the decline of the catch has lead to knock-on price increases here.

This is one area of Brexit where IMO the benefit will be significant, not so much to the wider UK (although Cheaper Takeaways - woot!) but to the specialized areas that rely on this - it will be huge.

[TheDemonLord]

5. The EU was allowing too many immigrants in.
- Supposedly due to the fear that Eastern and Southern European workers were depressing wages of UK workers. In addition, large numbers of ME and African people had been leaving their home countries (due to war) and flooding into the EU since at least 2015.

6. The UK could implement a more rational immigration system.
- That the UK would benefit from introducing its own "points based" system, where it could better limit immigration to more skilled workers (not economic or political migrants) and to those who spoke English (better).

I wanted to touch on this separately: where I grew up in the UK was very close to some very working class areas, there was some nice areas - and there was also some absolute shit-holes. Consequently I know from first hand quite a bit about the make-up and wages that these predominantly blue-collar families had.

When I last went back to the UK to visit, I stopped by where I grew up - bearing in mind it had been only 10 or so years since I was last there. I can assure you, I noticed the difference, instead of hearing the local accent (which is very VERY pronounced) I was hearing various Slav languages (Polish, Ukranian etc.) Speaking to some old friends - I heard the same stories - Wages didn't rise, whilst the cost of everything else did. Tradies (Plasterers, Plumbers etc.) who before had enjoyed a Comfortable lifestyle - certainly not racking in the Cash, but enough to own a house and have a Nice 5 YO Car etc. were now struggling, they simply couldn't compete with the imported Labour. For the Blue-Collar areas, their local Economy and society had Radically altered and in a short space of time. Add to that they had imported certain types of Crime - now I'll be clear, before these areas were no saints - lots and LOTS of low-level crime - Theft, Bar Fights, Graffiti etc. however some of the migrants imported different types of Crime, Crimes that were seen, by the pre-existing criminals as 'Beyond the pail'

But here's the kicker - in the nice areas, everything was much the same as it was when I left, the Middle Class types were doing just fine, not much change in the local Demographics, Salaries were keeping pace with the cost of living. Even with the fact that there were French, German people living and working there under the EU rules. No issues.

It really was a very stark and poignant image of one of the Driving forces behind Brexit. If a German engineer decides to move to the UK - in a highly specialized field - no one cares, in fact it's a benefit to the UK. When 20 Poles come to the UK because they can earn 3 times in the UK what they do in Poland in Blue Collar jobs - it impacts those working class communities hard.

And the difference is - for every German who wants to come to the UK, there's probably an Englishman who wants to go to Germany, whereas no one from the Working Class communities wanted to go to Poland.

In regards to Middle Eastern and African Migration into the UK - Just a look at Knife Crime in London tells you all that you need to know - Primarily it's Economic Migrants, who are young, Military Aged Men, coming for an Adventure and wanting to bypass the Immigration process that they would never pass.

Very few people in the UK would have problems with Women and Children or entire Families who were escaping a War from seeking Asylum. What we see however is it's mostly young men (who are leaving 3rd world countries that aren't experiencing a current conflict) and then when they get here - they do things like Burn down the Barracks they are being housed in whilst their applications are being sorted.

Add to that things like Rotherham etc. and you have all the anti-migrant sentiment you need.

[pritch]

Funny that.

https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2021/03/17/tussauds-waxworks-in-san-antonio-removes-trump-figure-because-people-keep-punching-it

[pritch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aMqYNKUTp4

[Viking01]

DemonLord,

Thanks for replies #2815 and 2816. Always interested to hear other perspectives.

I'll have another read through them, and may come back to you on a few points.

Cheers,
Viking

[pritch]

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/19/politics/mar-a-lago-closed-covid-outbreak/index.html

[sugilite]

Get ready for the Trump social media platform
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/donald-trump-will-use-his-own-platform-to-return-to-social-media-after-twitter-ban-says-insider/LHNXXWZ2WZ6TJ3W5O7HAARFVUA/

Names they are considering include...
Dick Dock, where far right conspiracy theorists can dock dicks and talk about the conspiracy of the day.
Turd Talk, a revolutionary platform that lets nut jobs plot and plan their next insurrection.
Twatter - A place for twats that still believe the election was stolen.
Face Fleece, In order to post - one must pay Trump first to keep the steal going strong.

It's gunna be epic :corn:

[pritch]

Sidney Powell, a member fo Trump's legal "dream team" is defending herself in court by stating that no resonable people would believe her election fraud claims.

May I respectfully suggest that any KBer who believed her nonsense, and we do have them, shoud spend the next several months in the naughty corner wearing a dunce hat.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/22/politics/sidney-powell-dominion-lawsuit-election-fraud/index.html

[TheDemonLord]

Sidney Powell, a member fo Trump's legal "dream team" is defending herself in court by stating that no resonable people would believe her election fraud claims.

May I respectfully suggest that any KBer who believed her nonsense, and we do have them, shoud spend the next several months in the naughty corner wearing a dunce hat.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/22/politics/sidney-powell-dominion-lawsuit-election-fraud/index.html

I love the difference between the headline and what was actually said:


Defendants' position that reasonable people would not accept such statements as fact but view them only as claims that await testing by the courts through the adversary process."

And Powell wasn't part of Trump's official Legal team - as per your article:


Though the Trump campaign had sought to distance itself from Powell

[pritch]

And Powell wasn't part of Trump's official Legal team - as per your article:

She was part of the dream team until her insanity frightened the others off. Trump though wanted to see more of her, he liked her message, he wanted to give her a job investigating the election.

[sugilite]

And Powell wasn't part of Trump's official Legal team - as per your article:

Pritch is right, she absolutely was part of the strike farce legal team.
She was shown the door for being to loony. Wonder what Rudi has to do to be shown the same door :laugh:

[pritch]

Wonder what Rudi has to do to be shown the same door :laugh:

Speaking of Rudy, he seems tp be lying low somewhere. Probably a good idea, but the long arm of the law should be reaching for him soonish.

[husaberg]

She was part of the dream team until her insanity frightened the others off. Trump though wanted to see more of her, he liked her message, he wanted to give her a job investigating the election.


Pritch is right, she absolutely was part of the strike farce legal team.
She was shown the door for being to loony. Wonder what Rudi has to do to be shown the same door :laugh:

lets see
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2021/03/22/sidney-powell-argues-her-dominion-defamation-lawsuit-should-be-dropped-because-no-reasonable-person-would-believe-her/?sh=58101a901dad

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2020/11/20/who-is-sidney-powell-meet-trumps-new-top-conspiracy-theorist/?sh=29b1b34b1f9d
yip TLDR is wrong

[pritch]

lets see
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlieporterfield/2021/03/22/sidney-powell-argues-her-dominion-defamation-lawsuit-should-be-dropped-because-no-reasonable-person-would-believe-her/?sh=58101a901dad

https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2020/11/20/who-is-sidney-powell-meet-trumps-new-top-conspiracy-theorist/?sh=29b1b34b1f9d
yip TLDR is wrong

Interesting to see the phrase "actual malice" in that first item. In the US if a public figure, or in this case a company with a public profile, wants to sue for libel the bar is slightly higher than for a private individual. It is assumed that public figures will have things said about them that are not true so they have to prove "actual malice". Whether the judge will be convinced that Sidney acted with actual mallice is key.

This is just one of the legal problems she faces. She could face charges relating to whichever of the 60 post election court cases she was involved with. It's expected that at the very least she will be disbarred. Lawyers are not permitted to knowingly present false charges in court. Other members of Trump's 'strike force' will have similar problems. They did it sixty times. It's not like they could say, 'Ooops I slipped'.

[TheDemonLord]

She was part of the dream team until her insanity frightened the others off. Trump though wanted to see more of her, he liked her message, he wanted to give her a job investigating the election.

The latter part is true, but as you say, she left/wasn't part of the Dream Team.

[sugilite]

The latter part is true, but as you say, she left/wasn't part of the Dream Team.

Thanks for confirming your error and confirming she was part of the team. Her getting fired does not erase her initial existence within team strike farce.
And - "Dream Teams" tend to not lose 59 out of 60 bro.

[TheDemonLord]

Thanks for confirming your error and confirming she was part of the team. Her getting fired does not erase her initial existence within team strike farce.
And - "Dream Teams" tend to not lose 59 out of 60 bro.

If you are fired before the Team plays it's first game, is it correct to say you played for the team?

Interestingly enough on this Subject - I was listening to a Discussion with Nigel Farage on this subject:

https://youtu.be/cS3-ls7_sjc?t=2076

Here's the link if you're interested, to the part where the discussion takes place - it covers the Capitol Riots, Trump's speech, The Election - and I find myself very much in Nigel's position - in particular on this point:

"It's one thing to know there's Postal fraud happening, but it's another to be able to prove it in Court"

[pritch]

If you are fired before the Team plays it's first game, is it correct to say you played for the team?

Interestingly enough on this Subject - I was listening to a Discussion with Nigel Farage on this subject:

https://youtu.be/cS3-ls7_sjc?t=2076

Here's the link if you're interested, to the part where the discussion takes place - it covers the Capitol Riots, Trump's speech, The Election - and I find myself very much in Nigel's position - in particular on this point:

"It's one thing to know there's Postal fraud happening, but it's another to be able to prove it in Court"

She wasn't fired before the first game. She was a major player.

Quoting Nigel Farage? I don't know what to say. If you want to discuss a shonky elections there's a great example. The Brexit campaign was based on lies, breaches of electoral law, and financed to an extent by Russian money. Putin must be very pleased with Nigel and his fellow useful idiots.

In the US election there was zero proof of fraud except for some minor instances by Republican voters. There were recounts and audits but none found anything significant. These checks were in many cases conducted by Republicans. The net result was that there was nothing found that would have changed the result. The guy in charge of the electronic component of the election rated it the most secure ever. So of course Trump fired him. Nobody with a grasp of reality believes there was significant fraud. It just isn't credible.

[TheDemonLord]

She wasn't fired before the first game. She was a major player.

That's highly questionable.


Quoting Nigel Farage? I don't know what to say. If you want to discuss a shonky elections there's a great example. The Brexit campaign was based on lies, breaches of electoral laws, and financed to an extent by Russian money. Putin must be very pleased with Nigel and his fellow useful idiots.

I happen to like Nigel. Not all the time, but well - "You all laughed at me then, well you're not laughing now"

But I can assure you - Anti-EU sentiments have absolutely NOTHING to do with Russian Money. I can post you videos from Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister in the 80s that show the British attitude to the EU. Well before Russian Money was a thing and whilst the Iron Curtain was still up.

If you aren't a member of the London bubble - the encroachment of EU regulation and the fact that your elected representative cannot propose legislation in the EU Parliament is a reason for not wanting to be a part of it.

If you are a blue-collar worker whose community and livelihood has been drastically changed (and not in a positive manner) by the Free movement of People, then that's your reason for not wanting to be a part of it.

In both cases Lies (and I'll be more than happy to list of the multitude of Remoaner lies that were lambasted as false at the time and subsequently have been proven to be lies), Breaches of Electoral Law and whatever other 'reasons' you might raise as to why those poor stupid Gammon voted to leave need not apply.


In the US election there was zero proof of fraud except for some minor instances by Republican voters. There were recounts and audits but none found anything significant. These checks were in many cases conducted by Republicans. The net result was that there was nothing found that would have changed the result. The guy in charge of the electronic component of the election rated it the most secure ever. So of course Trump fired him. Nobody with a grasp of reality believes there was significant fraud. It just isn't credible.

Except for the woman arrested in Texas for systematic Mail-in Vote fraud (for the Democrats). Let's gloss over that. Let's also gloss over the changes made to the Electoral process by a number of states that didn't go through the proper process as per their own constitutions.

And the point Nigel makes is very succinct, it's one thing to know something is happening, but another to be able to prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. I can think of many high-profile cases in this country where we definitively knew someone was guilty, but we were unable to prove to the required standard.

[Viking01]

But I can assure you - Anti-EU sentiments have absolutely NOTHING to do with Russian Money.

....

In both cases Lies (and I'll be more than happy to list of the multitude of Remoaner lies that were lambasted as false at the time and subsequently have been proven to be lies), Breaches of Electoral Law and whatever other 'reasons' you might raise as to why those poor stupid Gammon voted to leave need not apply.

.....


Russian money. Look, will you please keep to the party Line ? <_<

List of Remoaner Lies: Yes, please. I for one would be interested. Thanks.

[pritch]

Hmmm just checked the name of the journalist who had been pushing the Russian money claim against Aaron Banks who headed the Vote Leave body. It seems that Banks sued the journalist and won because she could not substantiate her claims. In which case I will withdraw the comment about Russian money since that seems tenuous now.

[TheDemonLord]

Hmmm just checked the name of the journalist who had been pushing the Russian money claim against Aaron Banks who headed the Vote Leave body. It seems that Banks sued the journalist and won because she could not substantiate her claims. In which case I will withdraw the comment about Russian money since that seems tenuous now.

I'd rep but apparently I rep'd you too recently - Respect where respect is due.

[pritch]

I'll post an item about the Russian money legal case below.

The journo is Carole Cadwalladr. She was invited onto a Brit TV programme to speak about her suspiciaons regarding Russian money in the Brexit campaign. These days if someone is going to speak for something, the TV channels thinks they have to have somebody opposed to provide fairness. Or at least the appearance thereof.

Cadwalladr's Russian money accusations were new so there was nobody opposed. Since Cadwalladr was identified as a remainer they got a pro Brexit woman on. The pro Brexit women shouted down Cadwalladr the whole time and Cadwalladr never got out what she was invited on to stay. The TV host just sat and stared, the most useless performance by an interview host I've ever seen. Frustrating as Hell. He's no newcomer either, he's a big name in Britain, but as much use as a chocolate tea pot.


There is more if anyone is really interested.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/dec/12/judge-makes-preliminary-ruling-in-carole-cadwalladr-libel-case

[husaberg]

Fox News 8th November
BARTIROMO: Welcome back.

"President Trump's legal team, as you have been hearing this morning, is preparing for all-out war, beginning with a slew of new lawsuits this week, beginning with one in Pennsylvania tomorrow, along with what our next guest says is evidence of voter fraud.

Sidney Powell is General Michael Flynn's attorney. She's fighting on the front lines of this battle as part of the president's legal team.
Sidney, good morning to you. Thank you for being here.

Can you walk us through what has taken place here..."

......
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BARTIROMO: Welcome back.

I'm back with Sidney Powell, who is part of President Trump's legal team in contesting this election.

Sidney, we talked about the Dominion software. I know that there were voting irregularities. Tell me about that.

[husaberg]

<iframe width=512 height=330 src='https://www.c-span.org/video/standalone/?478246-1/trump-campaign-alleges-voter-fraud-states-plans-lawsuits' allowfullscreen='allowfullscreen' frameborder=0></iframe>

oh look even Trumps personal lawyer said she was a senior lawyer for trump and his campaign not only that she's standing behind him and later speaking at the trump campaign legal team news conference.

[F5 Dave]

Ahh don't be so circumstantial. Fake news. Dem plants Antifa moles and BLM stooges.

Look over there. Clinton had a ham sandwich.

[Laava]

oh look even Trumps personal lawyer said she was a senior lawyer for trump and his campaign not only that she's standing behind him and later speaking at the trump campaign legal team news conference.
Isn't she the one who was standing behind Jewelleryani when he farted on air?

[pritch]

Isn't she the one who was standing behind Jewelleryani when he farted on air?

I think that was Jenna Ellis? She's the other woman in that clip. Not quite as barmy as Sidney perhaps. She claimed to be a constitutional law expert but apparently her main experience was in a low level court handling assault and traffic cases in a relatively rural area. Not much constitutional law happening there.

Husaberg's other post mentioned Maria Bartiromo. She, Lou Dodd, Judge Box o' Wine, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, as well as FOX itself, are being sued for 2.7 billion by Smartmatic, the other electronic voting equipment supplier.

Even if Sidney escapes the Dominion case relatively lightly - it ain't over.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/fox-news-sued-smartmatic-2-7-billion-over-rigged-election-n1256759

[husaberg]

I think that was Jenna Ellis? She's the other woman in that clip. Not quite as barmy as Sidney perhaps. She claimed to be a constitutional law expert but apparently her main experience was in a low level court handling assault and traffic cases in a relatively rural area. Not much constitutional law happening there.

Husaberg's other post metioned Maria Bartiromo. She, Lou Dodd, Judge Box o' Wine, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, as well as FOX itself, are being sued for 2.7 billion by Smartmatic, the other electronic voting equipment supplier.

Even if Sidney escapes the Dominion case relatively lightly - it ain't over.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/fox-news-sued-smartmatic-2-7-billion-over-rigged-election-n1256759
Yip jennna Ellis gives him the side eye.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydlE8grvF-k

[sugilite]

If you are fired before the Team plays it's first game, is it correct to say you played for the team?



Your keyboard won't explode taking your fingers with it if you were to actually admit you got it wrong in this instance.

[pritch]

Saw a discussion about Sidney Powell's defence that she was just making statements that would subsequently be tested in court. The First Amendment to the US Constitution, which guarantees freedom of speech, permits people to have opinions and to express them. Sidney did not express an opinion, she stated it as fact, and she repeatedly said she had proof. That's a whole nutha thing.

Y'all may recall her, Rudy, and sundry hangers on, waving around ring binders which were probably full of empty pages. Trump used that ploy twice, they couldn't even manage original. Anyhoo afidavits are not "proof".

And that's just one of her defamation cases.

There will also be the matter of her, Rudy, Jenna. and whoever else, bringing sixty odd legal actions knowing the details to be false. If even one of the sixty judges is pissed off enough to take action that's another problem. Then there's their respective Bar associaltions. If there is any justice at all none of these clowns will ever set foot in a court again. Except as a defendant.

[pritch]

The various Republican controlled states are bringing in some 260 laws designed to make it more difficult for people to vote. Unless they are going to vote Republican.
In some states it is now a crime to offer food or water to somone waiting in a queue to vote.

Georgia wants to ban voting on a Sunday. The reason being the bible says you should keep the sabbath. Of course almost everybody in the bible observed the sabbath on a Saturday, and never mind the separation of church and state. Apparently in Georgia black people particularly would attend church then the congregation would head for the polls en masse.

Less drop boxes, more ID requirements, less mail voting, less early voting, and on and on.

The Constitution gives the states almost total control of their own elections. The Democrats have legislation in the system though which would outlaw these new requirements on the basis that they are an abuse of civil rights. Civil rights are a federal matter. Getting that through with their razor thin majority will be a challenge. Interesting.

[F5 Dave]

Hallelujah thank jesus.

No offence

[pritch]

Dominion Voting Machines are now suing FOX for "at least" 1.6 billion. This is in addition to the 2.7 billion Fox is being sued for by Smartmatic. That might even be enough to worry Murdoch?

[pritch]

The Georgia Governor has signed their new voting measures into law. The master stroke within is a provision that permits the state government to change the election result if they don't like what the voters decided. What a shit hole.

[F5 Dave]

Bouy. That's wot we caual Demonocracy round hear. You no lyekkit, you can getthafuk oughta hear.

[pritch]

Bouy. That's wot we caual Demonocracy round hear. You no lyekkit, you can getthafuk oughta hear.

Yeah. Perhaps people aspiring to be politicans in southern states should be required to submit proof that their family tree does fork.

[TheDemonLord]

Russian money. Look, will you please keep to the party Line ? <_<

List of Remoaner Lies: Yes, please. I for one would be interested. Thanks.

So when I use the term Lie - I'm going to limit this to things that are so blatantly false as to be considered a Lie - some of the claims which have subsequently not been true were more reasonable and so not including them - I'll try to include a source for all of them, but some of the below are more an amalgamation of various claims - so it may not be a perfect match. Also - many make reference to a No-Deal Brexit.

Food shortages. (https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2019/09/05/Brexit-food-shortages-Shoppers-pessimistic-but-is-there-an-opportunity-to-go-local)

This one is a bit tricky to navigate, since in NZ we also had 'shortages' due to Covid, Panic buying and other factors and so although there are some reports of 'Shortages' - whether this is actual shortages, or just Covid related ones is generally not articulated in the Article - The fact however that if the UK was having a Food Shortage to the point it was causing serious issues (as opposed to not being able to buy the usual brand of Jam that you like - as happened to me during our Lockdown) then we would be hearing about it in NZ.

Further to this - on why I consider it a lie - in a Post-Brexit world, even one with a no-deal, importation of goods would be fully controlled by the UK government, so there is no reason why you would have a shortage in terms of importing.

No medicine. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31591974/) - There are various claims here, and even post Brexit, it seems certain News organisations have been attempting to spin certain shortages as being related to Brexit - this article: Here (https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/opinion/brexit-is-not-the-only-reason-for-medicines-shortages) provides a very good description of some of the issues around this:


But — despite the headlines — an unequivocal link between Brexit and medicines shortages has yet to be proven.

In addition, we have the Covid Vaccine, where it is clear that Brexit has had the opposite effect - it has allowed the UK to be proactive with the Vaccine.

Planes grounded. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/04/uk-and-eu-at-risk-of-grounded-flights-after-brexit-era-warns.html)

Now, as something of an Aviation Nerd, I've got some knowledge in this area - there are certain aspects of international travel that clearly require co-operation. However the fact is flights fly from the UK to other countries that aren't the EU and miraculously the relevant bodies (CAA, FAA, CASA etc.) have found a way to work together.

House price crash. (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/sep/02/house-prices-could-nosedive-after-no-deal-brexit-says-kpmg)

Again, this is more for a No-Deal brexit, but even reading the Guardian article it's clear that even with a deal, House prices would slow to 1.3% if there was a Brexit Deal. The reality?
7.3 percent rise in 2020 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55483432)


Half a million jobs lost. (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-osborne-idUKKCN0YE141) - Now this isn't even on the a Deal or No-Deal, it's just on a Vote to leave - well, turns out that Pre-Covid, it was the highest since 1971 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46958560)

Cost of £4,300 to every home. (https://www.ft.com/content/a7739ec4-04c2-11e6-a70d-4e39ac32c284)

It's our old mate George Osbourne again - this was an estimate due to Economy Shrinking - but it simply didn't happen, and I've included it in the lie list, because it was again, on the Vote to leave, as opposed to the actual exit.

Riots. (https://www.france24.com/en/20190912-uk-worst-case-no-deal-brexit-plan-warns-riots-food-shortages-operation-yellowhammer)

The premise for this was that the Food Shortages will cause Riots. Whilst there have been certainly Riots of late, none of them are in any way related to Brexit.

Super gonorrhea. (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-could-lead-to-spread-of-infectious-diseases-such-as-supergonorrhoea-health-chief-warns-a3898186.html)

Now, I could grant you that the Covid outbreak would warrant considering these claims as at least plausible - however I have 2 issues with that - firstly is that the assumption implied is that the EU with all it's centralised regulation would be able to effectively control an outbreak of an infectious disease - as we saw in various EU countries, that wasn't the case. And secondly that it would be at the border that such issues would occur - but with Covid - it's been clear that because of Brexit, the UK has the right to simply shut the Border - so in this case - the reasons for why it was proposed as a risk are clearly not true and Covid has shown that EU or no EU - with a sufficiently nasty disease, everyone is fucked.

Donald Tusk at the EU said it would be the end of Western civilization as we know it. (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36515680)

Okay, this one is a bit of Hyperbole, to be sure - but the underlying point is still worthy of Ridicule Europe has experienced periods of peace prior to the EU - the Pax Britannica for example. The notion that the EU and the EU alone is responsible for Peace is laughable.

So there you go - those are the 'Claims' by the remain camp that were so outlandish at the time, that they were disputed as being alarmist and fear-mongering and subsequent events, even with Covid have shown them to be Lies.

[TheDemonLord]

Less drop boxes, more ID requirements, less mail voting, less early voting, and on and on.

I have absolutely no issue with any of these, nor should any reasonable member of Society.


The Constitution gives the states almost total control of their own elections. The Democrats have legislation in the system though which would outlaw these new requirements on the basis that they are an abuse of civil rights. Civil rights are a federal matter. Getting that through with their razor thin majority will be a challenge. Interesting.

Interesting isn't it... That a number of States changed their voting practices in breach of their own constitutions to allow mass mail-in voting, and now the Democrats want to 'Fortify' future elections by mandating the allowance of mass Mail-in Voting.

One might conjecture that they know without an easy to abuse system, they have no hope of getting into government....

[Viking01]

....

So there you go - those are the 'Claims' by the remain camp that were so outlandish at the time, that they were disputed as being alarmist and fear-mongering and subsequent events, even with Covid have shown them to be Lies.

Thanks for the various items and commentary. Good effort. Interesting to see what items that you singled out.

One of the challenges in trying to assemble a "big picture" view (using media articles) is that recent articles on specific topics are not always available for the relevant period. especially since the Brexit story unrolled over a period of four years (primarily 2019-2020). Furthermore:
- It overlapped with the Covid pandemic.
- It's difficult to distill and separate out possible media organisation bias.

From a first read, there are only three articles that I'd have listed in the "lie" category:
-The "job losses" article and the "Stg 4,300 loss per household" article were from 2016, prior to the initial Brexit Remain/Leave vote (as you stated). Both authors could be judged to have a vested interest in promoting a "Remain" outcome.
-As for the Donald Tusk article (also promoting a "Remain" stance), I'm undecided whether it belonged more in the Humour section ("destroy western political civilisation"), or it was simply an over-dramatic plea not to "rock the economic boat" prior to the Brexit vote.


Most of the articles listed were from the period Sept-Oct 2019, in the lead-up to the UK Dec 2019 general election, and preceding what transpired to be the start of the 2020 Transition period. [Brexit negotiation and Agreement drafting]

Think there was a considerable degree of uncertainty at that point in time, both over the upcoming UK election outcome, and (assuming the Conservatives were returned) how they would then choose to conduct Brexit negotiations (assuming subsequent progress to the Transition phase, and given the internal divisions within the Conservative party).

A "No-Deal" Brexit outcome was generally seen as the worst outcome for the UK, and I think the majority of the articles probably reflect the possibility of that outcome.

Given that a "No Deal" Brexit agreement was not actually taken off the table by Boris until Dec 2020 (right at the end of the Transition period), I can well understand concern over:

- Some food shortages and medicine shortages due to vehicle hold-up at EU-UK borders, assuming that : (i) vehicles returning to the UK were performing the second leg of a round trip, and that the first leg - product delivery into the EU - may have been delayed due to incorrect paperwork (ii) panic buying by UK citizens inducing limited product shortages.

- If some UK manufacturers were no longer able to export product into the EU (based on phyto-sanitary or other EU product compliance grounds), then reduced production in the UK may have led to some increase in unemployment over time - and some limited civil unrest. [The riots article did clearly state "worst case" scenario].

- The "reduced flights" article (Dec 2018) seemed more along the lines of an Open Letter to the UK government, asking for more information on the likely UK negotiation stance. While highlighting some of the areas that might be impacted (airline safety and border security), more about the need for ongoing contact and collaboration between UK and EU authorities.

[ I can recall reading articles by a number of UK manufacturing and exporting organisations during 2019, making similar call to the UK government. Many asking for more certainty whether a "No Deal" outcome was seriously "on the table", so that they could then start scoping out possible operational changes)].

- The super gonorrhea article seems less about pandemics, and more focused on the need to maintain contact and collaboration between UK and EU health authorities.

- I cannot see how widespread house price falls were being rationalised, even in 2019.

Thanks.

[actungbaby]

That's a lot of hash. It's possible that sort of quantity could drive anyone to anything. I mean, take Bob Marley for instance. He ended up singing songs about peace and love and living together n shit, got shot for doing so, then got on stage a few days later stating: "The people that are trying to make the world worse never take a day off, why should I? Light up the darkness.", displaying a wisdom seldom seen in this world. I would have thought pritch would have been more amenable if his garage was stocked. You didn't sell him a double garage load of oxo cubes did ya?Little lucifer fire lighters .give the all over glow .and no thats
Not in anyway horrible.
As never know any of you.
In the street lol

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

[actungbaby]

How old does one have to be before they get to use it?... asking for a friend.

Was you around when the "he's a narcissist" phase gripped certain members of R&R like a pandemic? The echo was deafening. The answer to everything was, "he's a narcissist". Revealing to say the least given the finger pointers and circle jerkers v's finger pointees in any given thread on any given subject. Very funny in a great many ways, but kind of very sad that it took place.

It takes one to know one, apparently, although I prefer "You see the world as you are!". Trump has spent his life projecting an image of success that involves getting his own way a lot. Big fucking whoop. That he digs it makes him narcissistic, but even at that, narcissists still have great capacity for compassion (usually), even if it is just looking good by doing good for and by others, but generally don't go out of their way to destroy others in the process of their glorification. Cunts don't. Their narcissism is just another feather on their arrow of life. It sits proudly erect on the arrow, right next to the other two white feathers. Wilful ignorance and being a cunt.I have to say honestly easy get middle finger than talk about.
Ones feelings lol .

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

[mashman]

Little lucifer fire lighters .give the all over glow .and no thats
Not in anyway horrible.
As never know any of you.
In the street lol

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

Ahhhh, gaslighters. I now see the need.


I have to say honestly easy get middle finger than talk about.
Ones feelings lol .

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

There are forms for hurt feelings. If anything else is needed, that's what a pillow or a mum is for. Preferably yer own pillow and mum, but friends with benefits should span generations (said only to appease the upcoming Old Peoples Movement Matters crowd)

[TheDemonLord]

Thanks for the various items and commentary. Good effort. Interesting to see what items that you singled out.

No Probs, for me - I would have been happy with a No Deal Brexit personally - a lot of the claims, if they were more reasonable e.g. instead 'Planes Grounded and you won't be able to travel overseas' - it went with the more honest "There may be changes and some of them may have short-term impacts on travel whilst details are worked out" - I'd have not included them.

From my perspective - many of the Remain arguments start from a nugget of truth and then grew to the most outlandish and unreasonable version.


Edit: And sure - the $350 Million for the NHS from the Leave Camp followed the same path path, but overall, the major claims from the Leave side have been accurate.

[Viking01]

No Probs, for me - I would have been happy with a No Deal Brexit personally - a lot of the claims, if they were more reasonable e.g. instead 'Planes Grounded and you won't be able to travel overseas' - it went with the more honest "There may be changes and some of them may have short-term impacts on travel whilst details are worked out" - I'd have not included them.

From my perspective - many of the Remain arguments start from a nugget of truth and then grew to the most outlandish and unreasonable version.

Edit: And sure - the $350 Million for the NHS from the Leave Camp followed the same path path, but overall, the major claims from the Leave side have been accurate.

Thanks for the reply. While I'm not enamored by the "Boris deal" (the final Agreement signed December 2020), I think it is still an improvement over a No-Deal outcome.

Based on the key benefits that were being discussed as at deal signing date.

Neutral (under either Boris Deal or No Deal)
Sovereignty
- The UK regained its sovereignty [in truth it never lost it] and would be free to dictate its own foreign policy.
Legal Independence
- The Uk regained independence of the European Court of Justice.
Border Control
- The UK regained control over the UK-EU border and who may cross into and work within the UK.

Boris Deal
The key gains that I noted accruing from the Boris deal were:

1. No tariffs or quotas (for trading with the EU, which is the UK's largest trading bloc). Able to continue to trade with the EU and to avoid adverse impact upon exports to the EU bloc (provided that the UK does not diverge from existing EU environmental, product or labour standards).

2. Increased UK fishing allocation within UK waters. Though only of benefit to the UK if it could make and process larger catches, and improve fishing related income and profitability over and above that available through sale of fishing quota to the EU).

3. Boris could point to having honoured his election promise of delivering a Brexit Agreement (irrespective of its quality). He could also avoid totally "poisoning the well" in terms of future EU-UK political relations (in that an Agreement was concluded).

The following articles provided a fairly neutral high-level summary of categories within the Agreement:

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-eu-brexit-trade-deal-at-a-glance/
https://ec.europa.eu/info/files/eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreement-new-relationship-big-changes-overview-consequences-and-benefits_en

I did note that even before the Boris deal had been concluded in the UK, the Conservative government had already posted its own summary of its negotiation achievements (with associated Us-Them / Win-Lose assessments).

https://www.scribd.com/document/489048219/Government-Analysis-of-the-Deal-Document#fullscreen&from_embed

I couldn't help feeling their assessments was very political (seeking just to shout out how well UK negotiators had supposedly performed). They were quite narrow in coverage, and seemed overly optimistic (even their spin doctor might have gotten slightly dizzy).

Some of the assessments were probably more notable for what they didn't say (e.g. Tax ; Financial Services).

1. Tax: The UK dependencies of Isle of Mann, Guernsay and Jersey used to have to comply with the EU Code of Conduct on Business Taxation. Now that the EU Code will no longer apply, UK financial authorities are now able to re-establish "ring fences" favouring non-resident tax payers and thus re-create full tax haven status.

2. Financial Services: Apart from the fact that "Services" (and particularly Financial Services) were not in scope for Brexit negotiation (despite significant contribution to UK GDP), the UK gained no concessions regarding (i) equivalence and (ii) portfolio delegation.

Once negotiation started in 2020, the EU was very quick to advise that “equivalence” (i.e. foreign company rules deemed equivalent to rules set by EU financial regulators) would be decided upon by the EU.

So if UK financial entities thought they would be able to continue to operate in the EU under then-current arrangements post Agreement (i.e. to receive EU operational benefits without being an EU member), they were told “No” fairly early on during the negotiation process.

Next, EU authorities advised that the current “delegations” regime (effectively “letter box company registration”) might no longer be accepted by EU financial regulators. Because the latter are difficult to monitor and regulate, US financial entities operating in London could be compelled to shift their operations to the EU bloc.

Even Boris was quickly forced to concede that UK financial services had not fared anywhere near as well as expected, and that "negotiation would be ongoing" in year 2021.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/27/boris-johnson-admits-brexit-deal-falls-short-for-financial-services

I feel that a careful reading of the final Agreement document - plus the passage of time - might render many of the UK "wins" as "draws" (or "still to be determined").

As for the quality of the final Agreement - and the realisation of benefits, I'll leave the final word to your old friend Rees Mogg in July 2020: ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuVzSwSbkmc

No Deal
Even back in 2019, the UK government's own planning documents were indicating that a No-Deal outcome was less attractive.

https://www.vox.com/2019/9/11/20861291/brexit-news-no-deal-operation-yellowhammer

Concern was so high at the time that (i) MP's then voted to force the government to reveal its No-Deal Brexit Plans (ii) An Act was passed in the Commons and Lords to prevent Boris from pursuing a No-Deal outcome.

Some of the additional impacts that I had noted re a No-Deal outcome were:

1. An estimated additional GDP loss (2%) over and above that estimated for the situation where an Agreement was successfully concluded.

2. Basic tariffs on certain food groups and medicines could now be applied. Default to (higher) WTO rates.

3. Not only tariffs on EU-UK trade, but the need for (extensive) new regulations - which could in turn affect cost and availability of good and services within the UK.

4. Companies and individuals engaged in cross-border business having to relocate personnel and operations, to obtain new operating licenses and registrations, and to make other operational adjustments. The increase in cost could result in imported goods (to the UK) becoming slightly more expensive, with a knock-on effect upon UK consumer spending.

5. Impact upon foreign manufacturing companies who had earlier set up operations in the UK as a means of gaining easier product entry into the EU (e.g. Japanese car manufacturers such as Honda and Nissan). Not just impact upon JIT manufacturing operations.

6. The risk of Stg currency devaluation due to economic uncertainty. Progressively push up inflation and also reduce real wages.

7. Possible drop in direct foreign investment in the UK (especially after the Northern Ireland Protocol episode). Willingness to violate international law makes foreign investors nervous.

8. No-Deal exit "divorce payments"being levied upon the UK under the Withdrawal Agreement (which were estimated at 39-41 billion euro payable over several decades).

9. Time and effort required to negotiate new FTA's with other countries (to offset loss of trade with the EU at a minimum). Outside of the EU, only 10% of the UK's export trade (including the new UK-Japan deal) would be covered by agreements.

UK's ability to conclude an FTA with the US on favourable terms to the UK.

Lastly, links to some documents assessing the attraction of a No-Deal outcome over time.

As of August 2019:
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/UKIN-No-Deal-Brexit-Issues-impacts-and-implications.pdf

As at October 2020:
https://www.politico.eu/article/any-brexit-deal-is-better-than-no-deal-fisheries-trade/

[TheDemonLord]

Thanks for the reply. While I'm not enamored by the "Boris deal" (the final Agreement signed December 2020), I think it is still an improvement over a No-Deal outcome.

Yes and No - There are certain things in the Boris deal that I would have been happier paying the cost of a No-Deal to achieve.

FWIW - most of what you've written is very objective - so any part I skip - take that as a sign of either I agree with it, or that any quibbles I have are relatively minor


Neutral (under either Boris Deal or No Deal)
Sovereignty
- The UK regained its sovereignty [in truth it never lost it] and would be free to dictate its own foreign policy.
Legal Independence

The Sovereignty question is an interesting one - and it comes down to which court is Superior. When Britain was in the EU, the European Court was superior - which means if a bit of Legislation was passed by the Government, upheld in the British Courts, it could be struck down in the ECJ.

That to me is a loss of Sovereignty, since the ECJ is not subject to the British Democratic System (and before anyone raises MEPs - they can't propose Legislation to the EU, like an MP can in the House of Commons - only the EU Commission, which is not elected, can do that)


2. Increased UK fishing allocation within UK waters. Though only of benefit to the UK if it could make and process larger catches, and improve fishing related income and profitability over and above that available through sale of fishing quota to the EU).

Increased from the terms of the CFP, but not increased in terms to pre-EU Fishing rights - this has been a very sore spot for coastal communities that were decimated as per one of my previous posts by this.


3. Boris could point to having honoured his election promise of delivering a Brexit Agreement (irrespective of its quality). He could also avoid totally "poisoning the well" in terms of future EU-UK political relations (in that an Agreement was concluded).

His mantra was "Get Brexit Done' - not "Get a Brexit Deal" - in the event of a No Deal - the Brexiteer faction would still have considered Boris to have honoured his Mandate.


1. Tax: The UK dependencies of Isle of Mann, Guernsay and Jersey used to have to comply with the EU Code of Conduct on Business Taxation. Now that the EU Code will no longer apply, UK financial authorities are now able to re-establish "ring fences" favouring non-resident tax payers and thus re-create full tax haven status.

This type of question would often come up in the debate leading to Brexit and the over-arching point that the Brexit side used to make is "we will get to decide" - so if Britain decides it's in her best interest to Ring Fence and create a Tax Haven, so be it. If they decide it's not in their best interest, they will update the laws - but eitherway - Britain gets to decide.


I feel that a careful reading of the final Agreement document - plus the passage of time - might render many of the UK "wins" as "draws" (or "still to be determined").

The interesting thing with Financial Services is that a Draw is the most likely outcome - the EU as much as the UK needs the UK financial Services and Vice-Versa. Many of the issues raised I'm certain will have loopholes found by the Lawyers and the Accounting teams - but let's assume the worst case scenario - that the EU decides not to play nicely, Yes, it will hurt the UK, but given that the EU isn't very financially stable at the moment, it will hurt the EU even more.



No Deal
Even back in 2019, the UK government's own planning documents were indicating that a No-Deal outcome was less attractive.

That's because the Civil Service were full of Remoaners who never accepted the Brexit result and how dare the People vote against their best interests....

But jokes aside - Yellow Hammer was an absolute work of fearmongering fiction - and many of the things I put in the outright lies category have their genesis in Yellow Hammer.


1. An estimated additional GDP loss (2%) over and above that estimated for the situation where an Agreement was successfully concluded.

"The Price of Freedom"


2. Basic tariffs on certain food groups and medicines could now be applied. Default to (higher) WTO rates.

So this one again was bandied about a lot - but just because the WTO has a generic Tariff, doesn't mean that the UK is obligated to use it (this was something that also would come up alot) - Mogg used to have this out with many people - that the British Government could remove or lower tariffs for items ('Food, clothing and footwear') than either the WTO or EU Tariffs.


3. Not only tariffs on EU-UK trade, but the need for (extensive) new regulations - which could in turn affect cost and availability of good and services within the UK.

The problem with this one is that at the point of a No-Deal happening, unless the UK government repealed a bunch of Regulations (and wouldn't be nice if a Conservative Government did that for a change), then there would exist perfect regulatory alignment. Certainly in the future there would need to be agreements and such - however the UK trades with the rest of the world without requiring the framework of the EU. And there exists means to either recognize each others standards as being good enough (such as between NZ and UK) or to have a means to require certain things done for trade.


4. Companies and individuals engaged in cross-border business having to relocate personnel and operations, to obtain new operating licenses and registrations, and to make other operational adjustments. The increase in cost could result in imported goods (to the UK) becoming slightly more expensive, with a knock-on effect upon UK consumer spending.

This IMO is stretching - because again it's talking about the cost of importing goods at the UK border - Let's assume that this was a real thing, then the UK government could introduce legislation or mechanisms to offset this (lowering of Tarrifs, exemptions, express processing).


5. Impact upon foreign manufacturing companies who had earlier set up operations in the UK as a means of gaining easier product entry into the EU (e.g. Japanese car manufacturers such as Honda and Nissan). Not just impact upon JIT manufacturing operations.

See above - there's a great Clip of Mogg apologising that in a statement he had said goods were cleared inbound to the UK at the border in 10 seconds, which was false - it was (according the Customs) 8 seconds.


6. The risk of Stg currency devaluation due to economic uncertainty. Progressively push up inflation and also reduce real wages.

If memory serves - those predictions were made on the back of Mr Osbournes wild flights of Fancy.


7. Possible drop in direct foreign investment in the UK (especially after the Northern Ireland Protocol episode). Willingness to violate international law makes foreign investors nervous.

Well, not so fast, The UK has specifically stated it will not do anything at the UK/Ireland Border to Jeopardize the Good Friday agreement. If the EU pursuant to it's own rules requires such a Border to be in effect, it will be a matter between the EU and Ireland, not the UK. There's no violation of international Law from the UK's part in any of this - there is only that whatever the EU Mandates for the rest of Ireland must be done between Ireland and the EU.


8. No-Deal exit "divorce payments"being levied upon the UK under the Withdrawal Agreement (which were estimated at 39-41 billion euro payable over several decades).

One of the key facts about a No-Deal Brexit was that if there is no Deal, the UK is not bound by any law to pay the EU money.


9. Time and effort required to negotiate new FTA's with other countries (to offset loss of trade with the EU at a minimum). Outside of the EU, only 10% of the UK's export trade (including the new UK-Japan deal) would be covered by agreements.

UK's ability to conclude an FTA with the US on favourable terms to the UK.

So on the last one - under Trump - there was every indication that a good Free Trade deal would have been done - Under Biden, he's following the globalist left-wing position of wanting to 'punish' the UK for Brexit (aka Saint Obama and his 'Back of the Queue' statement)

However as per one of my previous posts - the Covid situation has put a stall to about a year's worth of Trade Negotiation. I know that many of the former commonwealth countries (Us, Aus, Canada etc.) are quite keen for a Trade Deal with the UK.

Even in the event of a No Deal - the question has to be asked: What country wouldn't want a favorable trading relationship with the UK? The answer is virtually none - everyone would want a favorable deal with the UK, so it becomes merely a matter of negotiating it.

[Viking01]

Reply to post #2860 above.

Thanks for the reply. A few interesting comments.

1. ECJ Jurisdiction.
Think that ECJ jurisdiction would relate primarily to trade related issues within the EU. As to other matters relating to governance of the UK - or to UK trade with non EU countries, that should have been under the UK's own jurisdiction. And subject to votes in the Commons, Lords and Royal Assent.

Some mention of the "ring fence" around the ECJ and its powers was made in the following link (see Transition Period hyperlink).

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit-next-steps-the-court-of-justice-of-the-eu-and-the-uk/

2. Fishing.
Point regarding coastal communities mentally noted earlier.

Suppose that these parties were on the "losing" side , in respect to income from sale of UK quota by the UK administration. Even if it was more profitable (at a UK level) to sell quota to EU fishing concerns, there would be no guarantee that these local UK fisheries would have been adequately compensated in turn (irrespective of which party was then in power in the UK).

3. Get Brexit Done.
Point noted. Although many assumed the UK was negotiating in expectation of successfully concluding an Agreement, the negotiating behaviour of the UK team during 2020 certainly kept people guessing. As late as mid October 2020, Boris will still telling the world (UK) that a “No Deal” has highly likely, and to prepare for it.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/300134962/boris-johnson-tells-uk-to-prepare-for-a-nodeal-brexit

The EU even offered the UK the opportunity to extend the time available for negotiation and for document drafting – in mid to late December 2020 - when it finally came clear that a “No Deal” outcome had been avoided.

https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/staged-brexit-negotiations-psychodrama-and-propaganda/

Then just before Christmas, it was Boris who pushed for a conclusion before the end of 2020 (“Let’s get it done”). Rushing the related Bill through the House of Commons, allowing MP’s only 4.5 hours to read and review the Agreement (1,246 pages) before a vote was called.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-uk-trade-deal-with-the-eu-passes-in-the-house-of-commons-1.4447526

In terms of the Brexiteers who favoured a No Deal outcome, it would still be interesting to know the demographics of those who might have benefited accordingly.

4. Tax Havens.
The EU Code of Conduct on Business Taxation had (I understand) heavy focus on suppressing money laundering activity. I just wondered which demographic would likely be a beneficiary of new / reinstated tax havens with looser restrictions on laundering. I doubt they would all be Saudi sheiks or Russian oligarchs. :msn-wink:

5. Financial Services.
In terms of providing financial services prior to Brexit (2016), the London City was definitely best placed in terms of (i) time zone (ii) ability to offer a wide range of financial instruments and services (iii) experience in assembling financials deals and arranging funding. No argument.

But 4 years elapsed (prior to the Transition period) in which time banks / insurance companies / hedge funds had the opportunity to evaluate "the lie of the land" (e.g. whether the EU was willing to offer concessions), and whether they should relocate staff / operations / IT systems to the EU bloc (e.g. Frankfurt, Luxembourg, Dublin).

In the interim, a number of financial organisations did choose to move to the EU:

https://www.cityam.com/financial-services-firms-move-1-3trn-to-eu-post-brexit-vote/
https://fortune.com/2020/10/01/banks-trillions-jobs-brexit-move/

And just prior to signing of the Brexit Agreement in December 2020, there were a few articles pondering how much trading business the City might lose.

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/12/city-of-london-frets-about-life-after-2020.html

By the end of February 2021, share trading on the London Stock Exchange (LSE) had fallen by up to 50%, Luxembourg had grown to be the second largest fund management centre, and Dublin had tripled its proportion of assets under management.

6. Yellow Hammer

Whether "an absolute work of fearmongering fiction" - or not, the existing government was the owner of the document. And if they didn't agree with the findings, they offered nothing in response to "correct the story". I'd have thought that if the government was able to table an alternative "story" (which looked both feasible and attractive), it was in their interests to have done so.

7. Price of Freedom.

If a government proposed to introduce a tax whose take would be equivalent to 2% of GDP, I'm not sure that it would be accepted quite as readily as your "Price of Freedom". :msn-wink:

8. Removal of Regulations.
I thought that part of the initial justification for Brexit (from a Brexiteer's perspective) was the removal of "unfair" and "unreasonable" EU rules and regulations, so the current state of "perfect regulatory alignment" (with the EU) would seem to be a position that Brexiteers wanted to move away from.

While they may not want to perform wholesale "slash and burn" of regulations, the negotiation of non-EU FTA's would still involve time and cost in review, negotiation and re-drafting of rules and regulations.

9. Cross Border Traffic.
While I recognise that changes to cross-border process / procedure / IT system software / documentation might be short term (say over 3-6 months minimum), the transport companies involved still bear those costs upfront - and will likely seek to recover them through increased freight charges. Which will be passed on to importers - and customers - in turn.

Rees Mogg may have quoted previously existing border clearance times, but I doubt that they applied under the new operational regime. Given that the UK may no longer have access to the EU databases for product identification and registration (e.g. REACH), I doubt 8-10 seconds inbound clearance times in March 2021.

Your suggestions of "exemptions and express processing" will still imply some minimum form completion and processing (even if electronic) under the new regime.

For those factories operating under JIT, assume this requires prompt clearance for inbound traffic at the UK border each and every day. While this might happen, the same vehicles may be needed for deliveries later within the same week - and vehicle holdups for outbound vehicles returning to the EU (to be reloaded) might prevent them being available when expected (delaying subsequent deliveries).

In the case of Honda, they have decided to remain, but exit the UK in 2020. In contrast, Nissan have decided to remain in the UK for the time being.

https://www.dw.com/en/uk-honda-halts-production-at-swindon-plant-over-supply-chain-issues/a-55884085
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/honda-close-swindon-plant-job-losses-brexit-diesel-emissions-a8784846.html

The EU may also wish to encourage business activity (and employment) within the EU, and entice some UK-based manufacturers to relocate.

https://orientalreview.org/2020/12/21/brexit-billionaires-and-the-little-people/

11. Currency.
Think the point is still a valid point. But it's just that we're not really in a position to be able to quantify it or debate it in any meaningful way.

12. Northern Ireland / Eire Border.
Think that there is a degree of semantics involved in your statement. It may not be a breach of international law, but it certainly threatened to create an operational problem for both Northern Ireland and Eire.

Both Irish parties were concerned, as many of their manufacturing supply chains span the Irish border, and a proposed return to a "hard border" brought back memories of the Troubles of the 1970's.

Boris has signed the Northern Ireland Protocol, which has indicated a logical UK border in the Irish Sea (and which avoided this situation). Anger was ignited when Boris subsequently threatened to back out of this arrangement .

Eventually, Boris backed down (thus preserving the Good Friday Agreement and Northern Ireland Protocol). But this decision occurred onlyafter the US had gotten involved, and had threatened not to commence and conclude a US-UK free trade agreement if the UK did not resolve the problem to Irish satisfaction. [ As well as Biden being of Irish stock, the Irish vote is important to the Democrats ].

https://sputniknews.com/us/202009091080413593-us-uk-trade-agreement-will-not-pass-congress-if-brexit-undermines-good-friday-accord-pelosi-says/

Even then, this situation was not finallyresolved until December 2020, when Boris stated that they would in fact continue to honour the Northern Ireland Protocol.

13. Divorce Payments.
I'll be honest and say that I just tossed that item in near the end (just to see your response). :msn-wink:

My understanding was that if the UK left with a "No Deal" outcome, Boris was taking the line that the UK was not obliged to make "divorce payments". However, given earlier UK commitments to contribute towards certain joint EU-UK programmes, the EU would be likely to take the UK to the ICJ to recover "nominal UK contributions".

https://fullfact.org/europe/no-deal-divorce-bill-payment/

There will still be some ongoing UK payments to the EU in any case:

https://www.bbc.com/news/51110096

14. FTA's.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47213842

UK-US FTA: I watch with interest. Not sure where you got the idea that Biden was left wing. ;)

Think that any Democrat resistance to a US-UK FTA arose more from (i) the importance of the Irish vote (see 12. above) , and (ii) previous UK mutterings about wanting to enter into financial arrangements with the Chinese. Fortunately, Boris has since "seen the light" on both points, and he has returned to poking China with a "human rights" stick, as well as threatening to send a UK aircraft carrier to the South China Sea.

UK-Canada / Australia / NZ FTA's: Again, I'll watch with interest.

The most recent article that I have sighted re UK trade with NZ and Australia was in the context of a suggested wider agreement with Canada, Australia and NZ. I suppose being ex-colonies - and Five Eyes partners - has to be of some benefit to the UK (even if it did abandon us in 1973 to join the EC instead).:msn-wink:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1403709/Brexit-news-CANZUK-Australia-Canada-New-Zealand-Boris-Johnson-Anglosphere

Regarding NZ, I wouldn’t get overly excited about potential economic benefit of a NZ FTA to the UK:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-new-zealand-economy-jacinda-ardern-a9571421.html

In answer to your last question: What country wouldn't want a favorable trading relationship with the UK?
China perhaps ? :msn-wink:

[R650R]

https://www.45office.com/

[R650R]

So when I use the term Lie - I'm going to limit this to things that are so blatantly false as to be considered a Lie - some of the claims which have subsequently not been true were more reasonable and so not including them - I'll try to include a source for all of them, but some of the below are more an amalgamation of various claims - so it may not be a perfect match. Also - many make reference to a No-Deal Brexit.

Food shortages. (https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2019/09/05/Brexit-food-shortages-Shoppers-pessimistic-but-is-there-an-opportunity-to-go-local)

This one is a bit tricky to navigate, since in NZ we also had 'shortages' due to Covid, Panic buying and other factors and so although there are some reports of 'Shortages' - whether this is actual shortages, or just Covid related ones is generally not articulated in the Article - The fact however that if the UK was having a Food Shortage to the point it was causing serious issues (as opposed to not being able to buy the usual brand of Jam that you like - as happened to me during our Lockdown) then we would be hearing about it in NZ.

Further to this - on why I consider it a lie - in a Post-Brexit world, even one with a no-deal, importation of goods would be fully controlled by the UK government, so there is no reason why you would have a shortage in terms of importing.

No medicine. (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31591974/) - There are various claims here, and even post Brexit, it seems certain News organisations have been attempting to spin certain shortages as being related to Brexit - this article: Here (https://pharmaceutical-journal.com/article/opinion/brexit-is-not-the-only-reason-for-medicines-shortages) provides a very good description of some of the issues around this:



In addition, we have the Covid Vaccine, where it is clear that Brexit has had the opposite effect - it has allowed the UK to be proactive with the Vaccine.

Planes grounded. (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/04/uk-and-eu-at-risk-of-grounded-flights-after-brexit-era-warns.html)

Now, as something of an Aviation Nerd, I've got some knowledge in this area - there are certain aspects of international travel that clearly require co-operation. However the fact is flights fly from the UK to other countries that aren't the EU and miraculously the relevant bodies (CAA, FAA, CASA etc.) have found a way to work together.

House price crash. (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/sep/02/house-prices-could-nosedive-after-no-deal-brexit-says-kpmg)

Again, this is more for a No-Deal brexit, but even reading the Guardian article it's clear that even with a deal, House prices would slow to 1.3% if there was a Brexit Deal. The reality?
7.3 percent rise in 2020 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-55483432)


Half a million jobs lost. (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-osborne-idUKKCN0YE141) - Now this isn't even on the a Deal or No-Deal, it's just on a Vote to leave - well, turns out that Pre-Covid, it was the highest since 1971 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46958560)

Cost of £4,300 to every home. (https://www.ft.com/content/a7739ec4-04c2-11e6-a70d-4e39ac32c284)

It's our old mate George Osbourne again - this was an estimate due to Economy Shrinking - but it simply didn't happen, and I've included it in the lie list, because it was again, on the Vote to leave, as opposed to the actual exit.

Riots. (https://www.france24.com/en/20190912-uk-worst-case-no-deal-brexit-plan-warns-riots-food-shortages-operation-yellowhammer)

The premise for this was that the Food Shortages will cause Riots. Whilst there have been certainly Riots of late, none of them are in any way related to Brexit.



FYI the UK operates the same just in time distribution model that we have. It’s very reliant on road transport and cheap migrant labour. Unload times are very slow due to poor management practices so trucks effectively act as a floating 24 hr storage medium.
Their saving grace would be the abundance’s of grain mills and farmers market distribution of farm products locally. Still a very short buffer though as grain isn’t stockpiled in volumes of days gone by.

[sugilite]

Dirty Gaetz, another Trump loyalest scumbag. Love how he says it must be an ex girlfriend causing the shit for him. So I guess she is ex because 17 years old was just past it for him :puke:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy7uOJ82TCI

[TheDemonLord]

To keep this post readable - I'm just going to reference the Headings


Reply to post #2860 above.

Thanks for the reply. A few interesting comments.

1. ECJ Jurisdiction.

Now, my understanding of both the previous setup and the setup under the article you linked is that where there is a conflict between Domestic Law and EU Law, the Superior domestic Court goes to the ECJ to get an interpretation on the EU law - which then the Superior domestic court is responsible for upholding.

In the Article it mentions a 4 year grace period for any issues occurring during the transition period, and then after that, any issues are handled in the usual manner (e.g. if the UK has breached EU law in the EU, then it can be called to account by the ECJ, in the same manner that the UK can do to the EU)


2. Fishing.


I would imagine that there would be quotas set aside for indigenous rights and then some set aside for international bidding - However should the international fishing cause an impact to the domestic market, the Quotas could be adjusted (much the same as in NZ)


3. Get Brexit Done.

Really, there's only 2 points in here to make - The EU has consistently offered the UK 'more time' - but I don't think that this was due to any benevolence or good will on the EUs part - The longer it went on, the more likely there was a possibility of forcing another referendum and the possibility of the UK staying in.

In terms of who benefitted - I'm going to quote Nigel Farrage as my example here - he famously stated that to stop being a Commodities trader and become a Politician - he took a massive Pay Cut - now, certainly he's not representative of all Brexiteers - but most of the ones that I've followed for the last 6 or so years have always made the argument on leaving the EU/No Deal on a point of principle and damn the consequences.


4. Tax Havens.

That's the funny thing about EU regulations, many of them have supposedly noble intents, but the application of them is abysmal - for example - all the website you click on where it asks you about your Cookie tracking preferences - you can thank the EU for that.


5. Financial Services.

The Stock Exchange is by nature very risk averse, so it doesn't surprise me - but the main reasons for why London was always popular for Financial trading haven't fundamentally changed (Location, Language, Expertise, Prestige, History etc.) And also we have to factor in what impact Covid had on the numbers (considering the UK's nearly year long Lock down - I'm going out on a limb here and suggesting it's going to have an impact)


6. Yellow Hammer

This is a tricky one - because of the way the Civil Service and the MPs have a degree of separation - however I've heard multiple prominent MPs tear Yellow Hammer to shreds (Rees Mogg, Farage, Bojo etc.) I'm not sure if that fulfills your requirement of having the Government 'Correct the Story'.


7. Price of Freedom.

I can think of a few things, just here in NZ that I'd pay that increase in Tax to have fully restored.



8. Removal of Regulations

This is a very fair point - given the relative speed at which the UK Government moves though I think it's a bit moot.

There are some things that definitely the UK would want to move away from the EU in terms of regulations - and for those, there would have to be some negotiation - but those items are likely to be things such as 'Whiskey requires to be aged for 3 years in a Wooden Barrel to be sold as Whiskey' as opposed to 'Yes, we use Sawdust and Horsemeat in our Butcheries' - My point here is it much like the Mogg clip I posted to Sugilite - Most modern western countries have high health and safety standards for most produce and so a degree of parity can be agreed upon.



9. Cross Border Traffic.

Sure, change involves Cost - I can agree with that, however if we take the clearance as an example - the UK Government has the possibility to relax the rules to promote trade (yes, I know that rarely happens with Governments) but the overarching point is that by having direct control that isn't subject to oversight by the ECJ the UK Border can be optimised for the needs of the UK.


10. JIT.

If we run that scenario to the logical conclusion - It's the EU businesses that are being deprived of Haulage resources that will ultimately harm them - Case in point - If the Germans can't get Car Transporters back across the border to sell Brts German cars, then that's seriously going to hurt the German economy.

In this case - everyone has a vested self interest to make sure the Spice Must Flow.




12. Northern Ireland / Eire Border

That's one view of it - but tbh I treat everything Pelosi says as a Lie unless proven otherwise. Even before the Boris Deal, Before Theresa's deal - the position from the Conservative government was very consistent on this point - they would not put up any physical border in Ireland. Now, in terms of semantics - I hear that - but I'm deferring to the last 6 years of discussion on this point from the UK Government - they won't do anything, if the EU requires such a physical Border, then that's on them.



13. Divorce Payments.

The best Analogy I've heard on this is that if you are a Member of a Club and leave the Club, the Club can't force you to pay the Membership to fill a shortfall in their budget whilst also denying you access to the Club House.

In terms of International Law, I personally think the EU would have no leg to stand on - regardless of what projects it's committed to, once the UK is out, they are no longer bound by them.

Of course, if it's in Britains interests that some projects are completed, then they may well have decided to contribute, but that would be at the mandate of the British people and not the Mandate of Brussels.



14. FTA's.

Certainly for much of the Former Commonwealth, a Trade deal with the UK won't be a massive boon to the Economy, but it's still likely to be a net benefit to both countries. In terms of the other Trade Deals - I think once the globe has gotten over the current Cough, then we'll see some substantive progress on this front.


In answer to your last question: What country wouldn't want a favorable trading relationship with the UK?
China perhaps ? :msn-wink:

Allow me to counter: China most of all wants a favorable trading relationship with the UK :msn-wink:









(It's just our definition and their definition of Favorable aren't the same.....)

[pritch]

The High Court in New York has approved that a court action against Trump may proceed. This is another of the women who accused him of sexual assault and he responded by calling her a liar. She is suing for defamation.

That brings to thirty the number of legal actions Trump is currently facing. Thirty is not a huge number, but that's a lot of court cases. And they are only starting to uncover the shonky shit that was going on while he was in the White House.

And then there's Dominion Voting Machines...

[Viking01]

Reply to post #2865 above.

Again, thanks for the reply. And again, some interesting comments. Like you, I'll keep my reply to the same headings.

1. ECJ Jurisdiction

Your words on trade related matters summarise it nicely. My words were intended to relate solely to EU-UK trading activity (and not to UK domestic law, or say human rights). Re the latter two, I have just cut-and-pasted a snippet that summarise it more succinctly than I could.

In the case of domestic UK law:

"However, the UK's post-Brexit domestic law takes precedence, and cannot be set aside by any directly effective EU law. ... For the most part, section 6 EUWA provides for pre-Brexit EU case law to remain binding on the UK courts when retained EU law is litigated, while post-Brexit EU case law is not binding." 05/01/2021

In the case of human rights:

The European Convention on Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights exist separately from the European Union. ... The UK courts, including the Supreme Court, are not bound by decisions of the Court of Justice of the European Union made after 11pm on 31 December 2020.

2. Fishing

Point noted.

I had seen documents relating to reservation of UK fishing quota for local fishers pre-Brexit (2015), but the text content - and quota numbers in their Annex - did not easily translate for me (i.e. some-one not from the industry or hailing from the UK fishing regions).

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/914715/English_quota_management_rules_2015.pdf

Even the following two UK-sourced articles say little of the importance of fishing to local UK coastal communities:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/17/catches-quotas-and-communities-the-key-fisheries-issues-at-stake
https://www.bbc.com/news/46401558

3. Get Brexit Done.

The only comments I'd make are:
- The UK appeared to have more interest in negotiation and writing of an Agreement at a high level (less specific / less detail), whereas the EU sought the opposite (more specific / more detail); hence the EU offers of more time for negotiation and documentation.

- The EU had a better grasp of the scale of the negotiation required (e.g. how many aspects would be impacted, and the potential level of disruption likely to be caused) – quite apart from any desire of wishing the UK to remain within the EU trading bloc. Another reason for wanting to extend the negotiation and drafting phases.

- There was a lack of respect demonstrated by both parties for one another. After the first two years under Theresa May - and possibly a lack of expected progress (gains ?) by the UK by 2018, think that hardened up both sides and drove some of the behaviours seen during 2019 and 2020. Neither side could be said to have come out the end with a glowing score-card.

4. Tax Havens.

The only comment I'd make is that some UK tax firms / lawyers were involved in the drafting of some of the EU Code of Practice on Business Taxation. Recall at least one instance declaring that they had provided text to help prevent some of the intended obligations of the Code from being defeated.

5. Financial Services.

Agree regarding historical role and position of London City. But I'm simply less optimistic than you for the UK future re FS. While the UK FS capability may still exist, some of the financial entities have chosen to relocate operations to the EU simply for sake of perceived ease of operation.

December 2020
The first article below [New Statesman] might need a temporary account.
https://www.newstatesman.com/business/finance/2021/02/why-brexit-deal-disaster-city
https://www.dw.com/en/what-next-for-london-the-worlds-second-largest-financial-center/a-56101977

End March 2021
Article posted yesterday.
https://www.riskscreen.com/kyc360/news/u-k-and-eu-reach-first-post-brexit-deal-on-financial-rules/

6. Yellow Hammer.

Points noted. Not able to offer any further comment.

7. Price of Freedom.

:cool:

8. Removal of Regulations.

Points noted.

The only comment I'd make is that I'd disagree re your last point: "most modern western countries have high health and safety standards for most produce".

I'd simply point to the US, and to (i) its practices re high usage of antibiotics plus its raising practices for chicken and pork (ii) its usage of certain pesticides not accepted in other countries. Expect such US products to be pushed forcibly in negotiation during any future US-UK FTA.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/aug/17/us-chickens-literally-sitting-in-each-others-waste-says-rspca-brexit
https://www.rt.com/usa/466001-us-regulators-pesticides-corporations/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/chlorinated-chicken-foods-us-trade-deal-uk-eu

9. Cross Border Traffic.

Points noted.

10. JIT.

Points noted.

12. NI / Eire Border.

And yet, the UK Government still acquiesced to the US. :msn-wink:

13. Divorce Payments.

Points noted.

14. FTA's.

Time will tell; I watch with interest over the remainder of 2021 - and into 2022.

China FTA: You are much more confident than I on the likelihood of any future China-UK FTA.

If you asked me back in 2019, I’d have said that the Chinese were "keen" to enter into trade negotiations (as well as being mindful of the then political situation):

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/201903/1141641.shtml
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/201909/1165532.shtml

But I think that view has well and truly passed by.

Given events such as (i) Huawei 5G roll-back in the UK (ii) Sovereignty / Human Rights – Hong Kong, Xinjiang and Taiwan (iii) Threatened UK military provocation – Aircraft carrier in South China Sea (iv) Perceived tighter US – UK political coupling following Brexit completion in 2020.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1371770/brexit-news-latest-UK-free-trade-deal-china-Australia-export-imports-tariffs

But possibly more because of: (i) a perceived “old colonialist” attitude – with some residual sour feeling (UK) still hanging over from the days of having relinquished Hong Kong (ii) a marked lack of political respect shown for China on the world stage.

One of my Chinese contacts put it succinctly: "The UK wants to come and trade with us – and to get the associated benefits of trade, but it also reserves the right to come and pi$$ in China’s pool at the same time. Not very smart thinking."

[ Two of the other Five Eye brethren – Canada and Australia – are currently acting likewise. And I watch with interest to see if NZ ends up being drawn in as well. Time will tell. ]

Plus a number of other things have happened while Brexit was in its final throes:

- China now has an FTA in place with the EU. And while the EU might be vocal on topics of “sovereignty” and “human rights” at the moment, I think a degree of pragmatism - with an eye to the importance of EU – Asia trade (abetted by the progressive rollout of OBOR) will mean that the EU will tone down the volume on those subjects in the future.

The EU may well still be vocal in the future, but likely on more pure trade related matters. [ I'm not ignoring future Intellectual Property debate.]

So as the China-EU FTA slowly beds in, I'm left wondering: Why does China really need the UK trade-wise (for financial or physical trading purposes)?

- China and a number of ASEAN nations already have FTA’s in place. And while some of those nations do have territorial disputes with China (the South China Sea), they can – and will – work out their mutual differences between themselves and come to some arrangement. US and UK involvement is simply not required (in fact, quite counter-productive).

- The UK now desires to establish FTA’s with a number of those same ASEAN countries. But with some of those countries having product manufacturing supply chains involving Chinese factories, this will potentially complicate trade negotiation for the UK.

You don’t have to agree with me, and most likely will not on some points. That’s fine with me. Just my 2c worth. Thanks for your earlier comments.

Cheers, Viking

[Edit]

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1220252.shtml

[Viking01]

https://politics.theonion.com/ted-cruz-decries-voting-rights-bill-as-shameless-power-1846553352

[pritch]

If there is anyone who still harbours doubts that Trump is a con man I recommend they read this. It's from the NY Times which is usually behind a paywall, but for whatever reason this seems to be accessible.


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/03/us/politics/trump-donations.html

[husaberg]

Not just those Pritch
His post election ones as well
https://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/trump-scam-4.jpg


buried deep in the fine print.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EmK5e0YVgAA4SwE?format=png&name=large

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d6188af78a325efb5971017aabbc6f0e9d11e81a3ff7461e75 63e1d67e4a4337.jpg
ever noticed that when the con has exposed some people conned still will never admit they were conned.

[husaberg]

Nah you've got it all wrong. Again.

I was looking for this earlier today but couldn't find it. It sums up the situation in the USA with regards to freedom of speech and social media.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=347508&d=1602841144

I never seen this one at the time remember when all those were crying that banning trump of social media platform was destroying free speech
odd those never complained when he said this first

Note the Date
https://s3.ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/images.deccanchronicle.com/dc-Cover-g4bflmnbi4coegebsi9036ohp2-20200527175304.Medi.jpeg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/23/2d/b3232d5d8e3be932bc68a1d3c769f92e.jpg

[pritch]

Matt Gaetz arrived in Congress at the same time Trump arrived in the White House. Matt is in a spot of bother. First there was a NY Times story about sex with an underage woman. Seventeen doesn't seem underage here, but in the US the age of consent is 18. Then the floodgates opened, stories of paying for sex, of asking women if they had friends who would shag him and his mates. Showing colleagues nude photos of his "conquests." Some of this apparently involved interstate travel which raises the possibility of sex trafficking charges. The Republican party though are strangely silent so far. It seems Matt has no mates.

One of his partners in all this is currently in jail facing a raft of federal charges. It does seem that he may be singing like a canary.

[TheDemonLord]

I never seen this one at the time remember when all those were crying that banning trump of social media platform was destroying free speech
odd those never complained when he said this first


The irony is that the Sir Winston comment accurately describes the Hard-Left and their attempts to silence speech that they don't like. I used to be able to post numerous Conservatives asking for people who were on the Left or Far-Left to come onto their Youtube Channels and discuss the issues - most of those have been removed now - Steven Crowder's long running series of 'I'm X Opinion, Change my Mind' is a textbook example of this.

The talk of Regulation from Trump is to stop the practice of shadow-banning Conservative ideas and ideals from Platforms. It's also to ensure that the ToS are applied fairly and equally to everyone - Because I can post multiple instances of Verified Check-Mark Twitter users posting things that if you replaced the word "White" with the word "Black" or the word "Jew"....

And let's not forget Facebook admitting that they fabricated the 'evidence' used to kick Tommy Robinson off the platform....

And here's the kicker:

I know for an absolute fact that you've engaged in multiple attempts to stifle others Speech on this platform. Whereas I, despite the many people I fundamentally disagree with, have Never tried to get anyone banned on Censured for a political Opinion.

I think I've contacted the Mods 3 times in my Tenure here when I felt remarks personally relating to me crossed the line, never for the opinion stated.

You'll also note that I do not Red-Rep people (The last time I did that was more than 3 years ago).

So tell me this: Who is for Free Speech for everyone and Who is for Free Speech just for themselves.

[TheDemonLord]

Again - Trimming out things where there's no real disagreement or where there's not much more to discuss.



2. Fishing

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/17/catches-quotas-and-communities-the-key-fisheries-issues-at-stake
https://www.bbc.com/news/46401558

Reading through the Guardian article - the devil is in the detail - the acknowledgement that although small in terms of overall industry, for certain communities, it's vital.



3. Get Brexit Done.

On your first point - I would say that this is more a case of the British way of doing things vs the Continental (or specifically - German) way of doing things. In Britain there is very much a long standing tradition of having an overall objective and then letting everyone figure it out - this does produce some interesting results - both positive and negative, whereas the Continental view is very much top-down - everything is received wisdom from up-on-high, with no deviation allowed. This contrast leads me to your second point:

I disagree with the assessment about the EU having a greater understanding - but not for the reasons you've stated - this is more from a position that the EU in it's negotiating position and ESPECIALLY with Theresa the Appeaser was intent on having it's cake and eating it - writing a Treaty to get someone to play by your rules will always favor the group making the rules, the Sticking point for people like me is that fundamentally we don't agree with this.

To link it back - The British want to do things the British way and the Germans wanted to do things the German way. (I'm sure there's a joke about the 1940s in there...)

On the last point - sure, I'll take that everyone behaved badly - What remains for me (heh - Pun intended) was that the initial period of Negotiation was pretty much the EU trying to bully the UK into submission. One look at British Lore will tell you that the Brits are more than happy to dig their heels in over a point of principle and be obstinate Stubborn bastards over it. Once that bridge was crossed - then yeah the UK dug in.

This initial period of disrespect and arrogance from the EU (and Theresa's failure to stand firm) really has lead many to the logical conclusion that the EU has a vested interest in Brexit being a failure and once this conclusion is reached, it taints all the subsequent negotiations as being viewed from that point of view.

Whether you agree with that assesment or not - I thin the Common ground here is that everyone behaved poorly.



5. Financial Services.

And that's fair - will it be the same as before, undoubtedly it won't be identical. It may take time, the UK may decide to incentivize companies to bring their Financial services back to the UK - but in the Long-run, I think the UK will be fine - we always have been fine.




8. Removal of Regulations.

Now, apologies for Quoting myself (as it's a little cheap) - but if I jump into my Time Machine - I can pull up this very discussion point previously:

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/187136-Are-Brexit-and-Trump-the-biggest-ever-embarrasments!?p=1131154254#post1131154254

I personally have no problems with Chlorinated Chicken being sold

A: Because of the points above (So long as it's labelled, then I as a consumer can make an informed choice as to whether or not I want to buy it)
B: I don't eat Chicken anyway.


12. NI / Eire Border.

Point Noted ;)


14. FTA's.

Definitely - it will also be interesting to compare a baseline of other countries during the same time period to see whether or not they setup Trade Deals.


China FTA: You are much more confident than I on the likelihood of any future China-UK FTA.

My Apologies - I think you missed the Joke I was making - no I'm not confident at all of a China-UK Trade Deal.

My point was more that China has been operating in a very consistent Manner - which starts with cheap products, then with Trade Deals, then with Chinese Influence on the relationship. I believe China to be playing a very long game in terms of wanting more influence in the West as not only does this give them financial Parity, but it allows China access to a Tap that they can threaten to turn off (and so financially cripple the West) if they do things that displease China.

The hesitance to call what is happening to the Uighurs (a former Marxist one-party state with a supreme leader starts shipping off religious minorities in cattle cars to 're-education' camps, where they are forcibly steralized - I mean, stop my if you've heard this one before) is the most egregious example.

So when I say that China wants a trade deal most of all with the UK, it's not from a position of Benevolence or mutual benefits - but part of China's weilding of soft-power to exert their influence.

[R650R]

The High Court in New York has approved that a court action against Trump may proceed. This is another of the women who accused him of sexual assault and he responded by calling her a liar. She is suing for defamation.

That brings to thirty the number of legal actions Trump is currently facing. Thirty is not a huge number, but that's a lot of court cases. And they are only starting to uncover the shonky shit that was going on while he was in the White House.

And then there's Dominion Voting Machines...

Can we just hear about the cases where he gets found guilty... too much white noise all these pending/current cases that go no where.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah Pritch. Fast forward time about 17 months will ya.

[Laava]

Very high chance the fat sack of McDonald pus won't survive 17months.

[husaberg]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/72845672.jpg

[Viking01]

Reply to post #2874 above.

Replying to just a few of the headings.

3. Get Brexit Done.
Agree with much of your summary.

I can understand EU unwillingness to concede much to the UK (for a range of reasons) e.g.

1. The current EU trading implementation was the product of years of negotiation in itself. The EU team will have envisaged a fully fledged EU-UK (re-)negotiation programme needing several years , whereas the UK team wanted a simplified agreement - and to conclude the whole process within 12 months.

This basic difference in viewpoint was never reconciled, and slow initial engagement by the UK team wouldn't have helped matters. In response, the EU position likely was: Why should the EU then act contrary to its own interests - and concede very much to a party that was choosing to leave the EU trading bloc (as opposed to join)? Especially given that that party currently had a large proportion of its external trade with the EU.

2. The EU would have obviously seen some financial advantage in taking their time with negotiations (e.g. an extended period of UK levy contributions; a possible shift by some manufacturing and banking organisations from the UK to the EU bloc in the interim).

3. Some of the Brussels civil service involved in regulating EU trade would have had a vested self-interest in maintaining the status quo (i.e. avoid job losses or of benefits).

I'll concede to displays of EU arrogance during the initial EU-UK negotiation phase itself (e.g. periodic leaks to the media by Juncker ; comments about competence of UK politicians).

But for me, I think the initial negotiation phase spoke more of a general lack of clarity and consensus within the UK political space (i.e. what was Brexit supposed to deliver to the UK in terms of tangible outcomes - and to whom?).

And that these quickly became visible once initial negotiations began:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped

I'm not a close follower of UK politics, but my understanding was that Theresa May was effectively trying to negotiate a Brexit deal largely to satisfy a specific section of the Conservative Party (the most ardent Brexiteers). Reflecting internal splits within the party.

But given that her final proposal seemed to indicate "continued adherence to EU rules" - implying not only a continued customs union governing trading activity, but also impacting upon some aspects relating to "UK sovereignty " (such as the ECJ and the NI / Eire border which had been key planks of the Brexit Referendum), then perhaps no real surprise that Theresa May's proposal ended up being rejected within the UK Parliament.

Quite in contrast to Boris's subsequent negotiating behaviour (a clear "Exit the EU" - and with a "No Deal" option clearly visible in the background as late as mid December 2020). Before he then quickly changed tack and concluded an EU-UK FTA (marginally better than a "hard Brexit").

5. Financial Services

Your comment "... In the Long-run, I think the UK will be fine - we always have been fine" may well end up being true. <_<

My earlier posts related to loss of income earned from legitimate trading and financing activities, but the Channel Islands and the City have long had reputations for other "finance related" services:

(i) The Channel Islands have often been used by the gentry for hiding their assets and income from UK taxation (as opposed to money laundering);
(ii) Large flows have tended to go through the City itself, with big foreign banks (US, Euro, Middle East, African and Asian banks) pushing all sorts of transactions (e.g. proceeds of crime and illegal activities / tax evasion) through to their UK subsidiaries. From there, proceeds can then get laundered (e.g. via deals, advances, asset purchases, or just straight transfers to certain parties via other City participants).

https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/city-london-centre-global-crime-scene/

The following link gives an idea of the nature of the issue:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/11/london-haven-dirty-cash-unexplained-wealth-orders-money-laundering

This next link is based on the FINCEN leak which exposes how the UK has a high number of shell companies that are used to hide/obscure the money flows arriving at and passing through the banks.

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/how-fincen-leaks-expose-london-as-a-money-laundering-hub-39963

The FINCEN leak reports also provide some further texture:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54226107

Mind you, money laundering is a truly global pursuit. Though that isn't the perspective you get from official FATF, EU and Basel Committee publications (which try to paint the UK and US as bastions of AML virtue).

8. Removal of Regulations

Chlorinated Chicken - Point noted. But you'll excuse me if I pass (and I never see such product on a NZ super-market shelf).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/chlorinated-chicken-foods-us-trade-deal-uk-eu

14. FTA's
As to FTA's negotiated or concluded (signed) during 2020, I'd imagine very few. Due to a reluctance for countries to engage and interact while the Covid pandemic has been active. To develop a global picture, you'd need to compile an inventory of documents (such as the following) and then aggregate:

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_118238.pdf
https://aric.adb.org/database/fta <-- See Table 6

China
Given the phases you mentioned for development (growth), I can't see the Chinese life cycle being overly different from several other countries. Other than the fact that it was possibly more highly successful (and in a shorter time period), and that it has also shifted itself up the product value chain as well.

Is that much different as for a number of other countries (e.g. some of the Asian Tigers of the 1990's ? India ? Israel ?)

Given the Chinese proclivity to trade, it's no surprise that China has sought to spread its wings globally within the last 20 years and to widen its trade base (especially with more developed / wealthier western nations whose citizens have more disposable income). But China has obviously distinguished itself further, in that it has also sought:

(i) To develop trading routes and nodes throughout Asia and Europe = OBOR
(ii) To improve its future technical capability via AI / Robotic initiatives = Made in China 2025
(iii) To grow its physical economy via use of a mixed economic model = Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics
(iv) To improve the economic situation of a substantial portion of its population = Increasing Middle Class (wealth).

As an outcome, China has now become a significant economic power in its own right. And a strong economic competitor to the US.

Wherein lies the "problem" for the US. In that China is now able to resist US influence to some extent, as well as surpass western technical capabilities in some areas.

But probably more annoying (for the US), it has been able to do so largely independent of direct US ownership and control of Chinese assets. And placing some restrictions on the actions of western corporations operating in China.

What did amuse me in your story was the transition - whereby now having gained some degree of economic parity, China is supposedly going to start displaying some Jeykll-and-Hyde personality change (supposedly seeking to "turn off some tap" and to "cripple the West"). The obvious question to that assertion is simply "why ?".

In contrast, the US has had plenty of practice in this respect, having been doing this all across the globe the past 50+ years (often in conjunction with the IMF and the World Bank). Simply in order to maintain its own economic position and to preserve its western lifestyle. And where the US has been unable to dominate some specific country militarily (i.e. via invasion or military bases), it has often resorted to some combination of:

(i) Attempted regime change
(ii) Financial sanctions - such as restrictions to the US banking systems, USD, or to bank credit
(iii) Pressure on the local currency
(iv) Indirectly encouraging the target to take out foreign currency loans (via the IMF or WB), and then imposing austerity conditions and forcing state asset sales if repayments faltered.

One should not assume that China has the same social or political objectives as the US, nor that it will adopt the same operational model.

I think you must have been reading too many western based think-tank reports recently. <_<

Uyghurs
You feel free to get excited by western media stories about Muslim Uyghur persecution in Xinjiang, but excuse me if I don't join you. Simply because there is more than enough information online to present a much truer picture of the situation on the ground, and the motivations of the various actors involved e.g.

https://off-guardian.org/2019/07/23/march-of-the-uyghurs/
https://journal-neo.org/2018/10/05/china-s-uyghur-problem-the-unmentioned-part/
https://consortiumnews.com/2021/02/22/the-us-genocide-accusation-against-china/
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-far-right-regime-change-network-fall-china/

In some respects, similar to the Chechen situation in the Russian southern provinces in the early-to-mid 1990's . In that case, both the US and Saudi were involved in providing funds and fighters to stir up the local Muslim populations.

Soft Power
I was also amused by your comment about "soft power". Is it only OK when it is wielded by western states (our traditional friends - like the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc), but it is not OK when it is wielded by their economic competitors (like China, Russia)?

The US has been bleating about its loss of reputation ("soft power") in the age of Trump, due to events such as:

(i) US Covid management
(ii) conducting a trade war with China, disrupting global trade and supply chains
(iii) the Trump administration's hard nosed position re EU NATO funding
(iv) willingness to sanction the EU, where it had sought to engage with either Russia or China.

But this has simply been the latest in a long line of events since at least year 2000, and spanning both Republican and Democrat administrations. Events such as:

(i) starting and progressing a list of wars ("7 wars in 5 years") costing some $ 6 Trillion
(ii) pushing the rapid expansion of NATO across eastern and southern Europe
(iii) causing the 2008 GFC, which then rippled out across the whole world
(iv) an ongoing lack of US willingness to allow certain states to decide their own political future, and initiating "colour revolutions".

It should therefore be no surprise that China - with its focus on trade and on OBOR projects - has increased its "soft power" (despite all the adverse western media commentary), while that of the US has declined.

[sugilite]

Just one senator did not vote for stronger child sex trafficking, can you guess who, huh, huh???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6Yn29053_o

[F5 Dave]

Reply to post #2874 above.

Replying to just a few of the headings.

3. Get Brexit Done.
Agree with much of your summary.

I can understand EU unwillingness to concede much to the UK (for a range of reasons) e.g.

1. The current EU trading implementation was the product of years of negotiation in itself. The EU team will have envisaged a fully fledged EU-UK (re-)negotiation programme needing several years , whereas the UK team wanted a simplified agreement - and to conclude the whole process within 12 months.

This basic difference in viewpoint was never reconciled, and slow initial engagement by the UK team wouldn't have helped matters. In response, the EU position likely was: Why should the EU then act contrary to its own interests - and concede very much to a party that was choosing to leave the EU trading bloc (as opposed to join)? Especially given that that party currently had a large proportion of its external trade with the EU.

2. The EU would have obviously seen some financial advantage in taking their time with negotiations (e.g. an extended period of UK levy contributions; a possible shift by some manufacturing and banking organisations from the UK to the EU bloc in the interim).

3. Some of the Brussels civil service involved in regulating EU trade would have had a vested self-interest in maintaining the status quo (i.e. avoid job losses or of benefits).

I'll concede to displays of EU arrogance during the initial EU-UK negotiation phase itself (e.g. periodic leaks to the media by Juncker ; comments about competence of UK politicians).

But for me, I think the initial negotiation phase spoke more of a general lack of clarity and consensus within the UK political space (i.e. what was Brexit supposed to deliver to the UK in terms of tangible outcomes - and to whom?).

And that these quickly became visible once initial negotiations began:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/mar/28/11-brexit-promises-leavers-quietly-dropped

I'm not a close follower of UK politics, but my understanding was that Theresa May was effectively trying to negotiate a Brexit deal largely to satisfy a specific section of the Conservative Party (the most ardent Brexiteers). Reflecting internal splits within the party.

But given that her final proposal seemed to indicate "continued adherence to EU rules" - implying not only a continued customs union governing trading activity, but also impacting upon some aspects relating to "UK sovereignty " (such as the ECJ and the NI / Eire border which had been key planks of the Brexit Referendum), then perhaps no real surprise that Theresa May's proposal ended up being rejected within the UK Parliament.

Quite in contrast to Boris's subsequent negotiating behaviour (a clear "Exit the EU" - and with a "No Deal" option clearly visible in the background as late as mid December 2020). Before he then quickly changed tack and concluded an EU-UK FTA (marginally better than a "hard Brexit").

5. Financial Services

Your comment "... In the Long-run, I think the UK will be fine - we always have been fine" may well end up being true. <_<

My earlier posts related to loss of income earned from legitimate trading and financing activities, but the Channel Islands and the City have long had reputations for other "finance related" services:

(i) The Channel Islands have often been used by the gentry for hiding their assets and income from UK taxation (as opposed to money laundering);
(ii) Large flows have tended to go through the City itself, with big foreign banks (US, Euro, Middle East, African and Asian banks) pushing all sorts of transactions (e.g. proceeds of crime and illegal activities / tax evasion) through to their UK subsidiaries. From there, proceeds can then get laundered (e.g. via deals, advances, asset purchases, or just straight transfers to certain parties via other City participants).

https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/city-london-centre-global-crime-scene/

The following link gives an idea of the nature of the issue:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/11/london-haven-dirty-cash-unexplained-wealth-orders-money-laundering

This next link is based on the FINCEN leak which exposes how the UK has a high number of shell companies that are used to hide/obscure the money flows arriving at and passing through the banks.

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/how-fincen-leaks-expose-london-as-a-money-laundering-hub-39963

The FINCEN leak reports also provide some further texture:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54226107

Mind you, money laundering is a truly global pursuit. Though that isn't the perspective you get from official FATF, EU and Basel Committee publications (which try to paint the UK and US as bastions of AML virtue).

8. Removal of Regulations

Chlorinated Chicken - Point noted. But you'll excuse me if I pass (and I never see such product on a NZ super-market shelf).

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/mar/02/chlorinated-chicken-foods-us-trade-deal-uk-eu

14. FTA's
As to FTA's negotiated or concluded (signed) during 2020, I'd imagine very few. Due to a reluctance for countries to engage and interact while the Covid pandemic has been active. To develop a global picture, you'd need to compile an inventory of documents (such as the following) and then aggregate:

https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/december/tradoc_118238.pdf
https://aric.adb.org/database/fta <-- See Table 6

China
Given the phases you mentioned for development (growth), I can't see the Chinese life cycle being overly different from several other countries. Other than the fact that it was possibly more highly successful (and in a shorter time period), and that it has also shifted itself up the product value chain as well.

Is that much different as for a number of other countries (e.g. some of the Asian Tigers of the 1990's ? India ? Israel ?)

Given the Chinese proclivity to trade, it's no surprise that China has sought to spread its wings globally within the last 20 years and to widen its trade base (especially with more developed / wealthier western nations whose citizens have more disposable income). But China has obviously distinguished itself further, in that it has also sought:

(i) To develop trading routes and nodes throughout Asia and Europe = OBOR
(ii) To improve its future technical capability via AI / Robotic initiatives = Made in China 2025
(iii) To grow its physical economy via use of a mixed economic model = Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics
(iv) To improve the economic situation of a substantial portion of its population = Increasing Middle Class (wealth).

As an outcome, China has now become a significant economic power in its own right. And a strong economic competitor to the US.

Wherein lies the "problem" for the US. In that China is now able to resist US influence to some extent, as well as surpass western technical capabilities in some areas.

But probably more annoying (for the US), it has been able to do so largely independent of direct US ownership and control of Chinese assets. And placing some restrictions on the actions of western corporations operating in China.

What did amuse me in your story was the transition - whereby now having gained some degree of economic parity, China is supposedly going to start displaying some Jeykll-and-Hyde personality change (supposedly seeking to "turn off some tap" and to "cripple the West"). The obvious question to that assertion is simply "why ?".

In contrast, the US has had plenty of practice in this respect, having been doing this all across the globe the past 50+ years (often in conjunction with the IMF and the World Bank). Simply in order to maintain its own economic position and to preserve its western lifestyle. And where the US has been unable to dominate some specific country militarily (i.e. via invasion or military bases), it has often resorted to some combination of:

(i) Attempted regime change
(ii) Financial sanctions - such as restrictions to the US banking systems, USD, or to bank credit
(iii) Pressure on the local currency
(iv) Indirectly encouraging the target to take out foreign currency loans (via the IMF or WB), and then imposing austerity conditions and forcing state asset sales if repayments faltered.

One should not assume that China has the same social or political objectives as the US, nor that it will adopt the same operational model.

I think you must have been reading too many western based think-tank reports recently. <_<

Uyghurs
You feel free to get excited by western media stories about Muslim Uyghur persecution in Xinjiang, but excuse me if I don't join you. Simply because there is more than enough information online to present a much truer picture of the situation on the ground, and the motivations of the various actors involved e.g.

https://off-guardian.org/2019/07/23/march-of-the-uyghurs/
https://journal-neo.org/2018/10/05/china-s-uyghur-problem-the-unmentioned-part/
https://consortiumnews.com/2021/02/22/the-us-genocide-accusation-against-china/
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-far-right-regime-change-network-fall-china/

In some respects, similar to the Chechen situation in the Russian southern provinces in the early-to-mid 1990's . In that case, both the US and Saudi were involved in providing funds and fighters to stir up the local Muslim populations.

Soft Power
I was also amused by your comment about "soft power". Is it only OK when it is wielded by western states (our traditional friends - like the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc), but it is not OK when it is wielded by their economic competitors (like China, Russia)?

The US has been bleating about its loss of reputation ("soft power") in the age of Trump, due to events such as:

(i) US Covid management
(ii) conducting a trade war with China, disrupting global trade and supply chains
(iii) the Trump administration's hard nosed position re EU NATO funding
(iv) willingness to sanction the EU, where it had sought to engage with either Russia or China.

But this has simply been the latest in a long line of events since at least year 2000, and spanning both Republican and Democrat administrations. Events such as:

(i) starting and progressing a list of wars ("7 wars in 5 years") costing some $ 6 Trillion
(ii) pushing the rapid expansion of NATO across eastern and southern Europe
(iii) causing the 2008 GFC, which then rippled out across the whole world
(iv) an ongoing lack of US willingness to allow certain states to decide their own political future, and initiating "colour revolutions".

It should therefore be no surprise that China - with its focus on trade and on OBOR projects - has increased its "soft power" (despite all the adverse western media commentary), while that of the US has declined.
Um, dude. Do you think anyone actually read what's above? It's a page of text. I'm not that sure what you are arguing about, but it sounds boring.
Can we go back to Hillary's baby eating accusations?

[pritch]

The griters are still at it. The attachment was still up last night our time. The company doing the fundraising is a 'for profit' and they take a major chunk of the money raised. Well, at least that part which doesn't have to be repaid because it was taken under false pretences.

[Viking01]

Um, dude. Do you think anyone actually read what's above? It's a page of text. I'm not that sure what you are arguing about, but it sounds boring.
Can we go back to Hillary's baby eating accusations?

Maybe only TDL.

You do as you wish, sir.

Have a good day. Definitely a low-wind day today, ideal for a ride.

[TheDemonLord]

Um, dude. Do you think anyone actually read what's above? It's a page of text. I'm not that sure what you are arguing about, but it sounds boring.
Can we go back to Hillary's baby eating accusations?

I read it, with great enthusiasm, I find Viking01's posts to be well written, well thought out, exceptionally well formatted, adequately sources (a touch too much The Guardian for my personal liking) and most of all - I find his opinions and insights to be balanced and with a good foundation of reason and evidence to support them.

Which makes disagreeing with him all the more fun for me.

[Viking01]

I.... (a touch too much The Guardian for my personal liking) ....

Which makes disagreeing with him all the more fun for me.

Damn. And I thought I was being careful.

I deliberately avoided including any RT and China Daily Global links. ;)

[pritch]

Matt Gaetz who may be charged with a number of crimes including underage sex and trafficking among others. Some serious stuff. He claims he's innocent, but It's now reported that he approached White House staff about a premeptive pardon from Trump shortly before Biden took over. Innocent people don't usually seek pardons just in case. Trump has now said that Gaetz didn't approach him for a pardon. That wasn't the claim, the report was that Gaetz had approached senior staff. Maybe he didn't wave his chequebook. As one of Trump's most vocal supporters he should've known how it worked.

[pritch]

Damn. And I thought I was being careful.

I deliberately avoided including any RT and China Daily Global links. ;)

TDL should read the Guardian more often. People who restrct their reading to RWNJ crap turn into RWNJs.

[TheDemonLord]

TDL should read the Guardian more often. People who restrct their reading to RWNJ crap turn into RWNJs.

Who says I don't read the Guardian?
and who says I only read 'RWNJ' crap?

And finally, if that is true for 'RWNJ Crap', why would it not be true for 'LWNJ Crap' (Aka, The Guardian)...

[F5 Dave]

Maybe only TDL.

You do as you wish, sir.

Have a good day. Definitely a low-wind day today, ideal for a ride.

Why thank you.
Yes it would have been but I had this work thing on today (work). But I did enjoy a snack down by the river at lunchtime. That's not code for something dodgy. It was some chocolate fudge (not code either, ) and some V. (Again, not code).

[pritch]

Who says I don't read the Guardian?
and who says I only read 'RWNJ' crap?

And finally, if that is true for 'RWNJ Crap', why would it not be true for 'LWNJ Crap' (Aka, The Guardian)...

Dunno what to say. Too much of what the RWNJs believe has no connection to reality. None. The irregularities and anomolies they saw in the election just did not exist. At all.

Yet they clung to them with dogged determination.

They didn't get any of that from the left wing press.

Today a Repblican politician from Georgia admitted that their Jim Crow 2.0 voter suppression laws were based entirely on Trump's big lie that the election was stolen.
The lie the RWNJs believed.

You probably won't read about that in the RWNJ press though.

[ellipsis]

...having read most of, or skimmed a lot of this thread, I have come to a conclusion...you cunts are even sillier than me...and that deserves a medal...

...who actually gives two fucks...

,,,Jacinda and her mismatched, luck strewn, red-left-green-wankfuck-tell-delusional-tales...to a silly bunch of dumb kiwis a few untruths, must be more of a concern, and twice as exciting... shirley...


:crazy:

[husaberg]

Why thank you.
Yes it would have been but I had this work thing on today (work). But I did enjoy a snack down by the river at lunchtime. That's not code for something dodgy. It was some chocolate fudge (not code either, ) and some V. (Again, not code).

i prefer the V and avoid the choc fudge

[pritch]

i prefer the V and avoid the choc fudge

Well You can have the V, I'll take a choc fudge. (And no, that's not code.)

Only tried RedBull and V once each didn't like them. Worked with a large lady (yeah, that's code) who bought them by the slab. Her business but...

Anyhoo saw this yesterday and it appealed.

[R650R]

Well You can have the V, I'll take a choc fudge. (And no, that's not code.)

Only tried RedBull and V once each didn't like them. Worked with a large lady (yeah, that's code) who bought them by the slab. Her business but...

Anyhoo saw this yesterday and it appealed.

THeir both just shameless shotgun blasts of sugar in a can. A scientist did a really cool tech analysis on YouTube. Basically there’s scant evidence that the stimulants like gurana and whatever else actually do anything and that the quantities of them in the can would make them negligible next to the sugar anyway.
As a former long haul trucker I can tell you they are useless for real world fatigue.
Every sip Is just one step closer to pancreatic cancer... (all that sugar bashes the part trying to make suitable insulin to balance it out)

[F5 Dave]

Yeah iys my guilty pleasure. I buy fridge packs so smaller than usual 200ml cans 10 of. Takes a couple of weeks to get through that so I probably drink less sugar and caffeine than your average coffee drinker which I'm not.

The craft beer on the other hand. Well, guilty as charged. :drinknsin

[pritch]

Yeah iys my guilty pleasure. I buy fridge packs so smaller than usual 200ml cans 10 of. Takes a couple of weeks to get through that so I probably drink less sugar and caffeine than your average coffee drinker which I'm not.

The craft beer on the other hand. Well, guilty as charged. :drinknsin



The only time I bought a Redbull I was heading off on a long drive late in the day and thought it might help me stay awake. Didn't like the taste. I don't know how much stimulants they put in but I don't think drinking a succession of Redbull cocktails seems like a smart idea..

I was drinking coffee black, no sugar, but had to stop at least temporarily because a caffeine related problem developed. Currently limited to two cups of tea a day. Maybe next week?

Meanwhile back on topic... Trump - and craft beer. I bought some cans of "Dump The Trump" craft beer to drink while the US election was on. Excellent beer but that brewery doesn't sell down here and $11.50 per can plus freight is a bit rich for my blood. I need to improve my knowledge of which beers are actually produced by a craft brewery and which are false flag operations produced by the big breweries.

[F5 Dave]

The only time I bought a Redbull I was heading off on a long drive late in the day and thought it might help me stay awake. Didn't like the taste. I don't know how much stimulants they put in but I don't think drinking a succession of Redbull cocktails seems like a smart idea..

I was drinking coffee black, no sugar, but had to stop at least temporarily because a caffeine related problem developed. Currently limited to two cups of tea a day. Maybe next week?

Meanwhile back on topic... Trump - and craft beer. I bought some cans of "Dump The Trump" craft beer to drink while the US election was on. Excellent beer but that brewery doesn't sell down here and $11.50 per can plus freight is a bit rich for my blood. I need to improve my knowledge of which beers are actually produced by a craft brewery and which are false flag operations produced by the big breweries.

Well now. This was tonight's tipple. After a few hazys as I can't justify buying big cans for everyday.

Ahh crap, I'll need another device. Hold on.b

[F5 Dave]

Ok let's try this.

Ok sweet.

The Behemoth is special. But not for everyone.

The Deep creek is generally fantastic and if you slightly like Hazy this will become a favorite.

[pritch]

Matt Gaetz's bestie is negotiating a plea deal. That implies he is "cooperating". The feds tend to squeeze a smaller fry to give information about a bigger fish, and it seems to be working.

Gaetz could be looking at serious time. A life sentence, if not exactly likely, could be a possibility. Are there even bigger fish Gaetz could squeal on to get himself off the hook?

Matt better stay away from tall buildings and pedestrian crossings.

[mashman]

Matt Gaetz's bestie is negotiating a plea deal. That implies he is "cooperating". The feds tend to squeeze a smaller fry to give information about a bigger fish, and it seems to be working.

Gaetz could be looking at serious time. A life sentence, if not exactly likely, could be a possibility. Are there even bigger fish Gaetz could squeal on to get himself off the hook?

Matt better stay away from tall buildings and pedestrian crossings.

Yeah, given the following list, that none of that sort of thing would be able to take place, and yet.....................



Democratic Illinois State Representative, Keith Farnham, has resigned and was charged with possession of child pornography and has been accused of bragging at an online site about sexually molesting a 6-year-old girl.

Democratic spokesperson for the Arkansas Democratic Party, Harold Moody, Jr, was charged with distribution and possession of child pornography.

Democratic Radnor Township Board of Commissioners member, Philip Ahr, resigned from his position after being charged with possession of child pornography and abusing children between 2 and 6 years-old.

Democratic activist and BLM organizer, Charles Wade, was arrested and charged with human trafficking and underage prostitution.

Democratic Texas attorney and activist, Mark Benavides, was charged with having sex with a minor, inducing a child under 18 to have sex and compelling prostitution of at least nine legal clients and possession of child pornography. He was found guilty on six counts of sex trafficking.
Democratic Virginia Delegate, Joe Morrissey, was indicted on charges connected to his relationship with a 17-year-old girl and was charged with supervisory indecent liberties with a minor, electronic solicitation of a minor, possession of child pornography and distribution of child pornography.

Democratic Massachusetts Congressman, Gerry Studds, was censured by the House of Representatives after he admitted to an inappropriate relationship with a 17-year-old page.

Democratic Former Mayor of Stillwater, New York, Rick Nelson was plead guilty to five counts of possession of child pornography of children less than 16 years of age.

Democratic Former Mayor of Clayton, New York, Dale Kenyon, was indicted for sexual acts against a teenager.

Democratic Former Mayor of Hubbard, Ohio, Richard Keenan, was given a life sentence in jail for raping a 4-year-old girl.

Democratic Former Mayor of Winston, Oregeon, Kenneth Barrett, was arrested for setting up a meeting to have sex with a 14-year-old girl who turned out to be a police officer.

Democratic Former Mayor of Randolph, Nebraska, Dwayne L. Schutt, was arrested and charged with four counts of felony third-degree sexual assault of a child and one count of intentional child abuse.

Democratic Former Mayor of Dawson, Georgia, Christopher Wright, was indicted on the charges of aggravated child molestation, aggravated sodomy, rape, child molestation and statutory rape of an 11-year-old boy and a 12-year-old girl.

Democratic Former Mayor of Stockton, California, Anthony Silva, was charged with providing alcohol to young adults during a game of strip poker that included a 16-year-old boy at a camp for underprivileged children run by the mayor.

Democratic Former Mayor of Millbrook, New York, Donald Briggs, was arrested and charged with inappropriate sexual contact with a person younger than 17.

Democratic party leader for Victoria County, Texas, Stephen Jabbour, plead guilty to possession and receiving over half a million child pornographic images. Democratic activist and fundraiser, Terrence Bean, was arrested on charges of sodomy and sex abuse in a case involving a 15-year-old boy and when the alleged victim declined to testify, and the judge dismissed the case.

Democratic Party Chairman for Davidson County, Tennessee, Rodney Mullin, resigned amid child pornography allegations.

Democratic activist, Andrew Douglas Reed, pleaded guilty to a multiple counts of 2nd-degree sexual exploitation of a minor for producing child pornography.

Democratic official from Terre Haute, Indiana, David Roberts was sentenced to federal prison for producing and possessing child pornography including placing hidden cameras in the bedrooms and bathrooms at a home he shared with two minor female victims.

Democratic California Congressman, Tony Cárdenas, is being sued in LA County for allegedly sexually abused a 16-year-old girl.

Democratic aide to Senator Barbara Boxer, Jeff Rosato, plead guilty to charges of trading in child pornography.

Democratic Alaskan State Representative, Dean Westlake, resigned from his seat after the media published a report alleging he fathered a child with a 16-year-old girl when he was 28.
Democratic New Jersey State Assemblyman, Neil Cohen, was convicted of possession and distribution of child pornography.

Republican Tim Nolan, chairman of Donald Trump’s presidential campaign in Kentucky, pled guilty to child sex trafficking and on February 11, 2018 he was sentenced to serve 20 years in prison.

Republican state Senator Ralph Shortey was indicted on four counts of human trafficking and child pornography. In November 2017, he pleaded guilty to one count of child sex trafficking in exchange for the dropping of the other charges.

Republican anti-abortion activist Howard Scott Heldreth is a convicted child rapist in Florida.
Republican County Commissioner David Swartz pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 11 and was sentenced to 8 years in prison.

Republican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.

Republican anti-abortion activist Nicholas Morency pleaded guilty to possessing child pornography on his computer and offering a bounty to anybody who murders an abortion doctor.

Republican legislator Edison Misla Aldarondo was sentenced to 10 years in prison for raping his daughter between the ages of 9 and 17.

Republican Mayor Philip Giordano is serving a 37-year sentence in federal prison for sexually abusing 8- and 10-year old girls.

Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.

Republican Senator Strom Thurmond, a notable racist, had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.

Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a female juvenile.
Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.

Republican Congressman Donald “Buz” Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a female minor and sentenced to one month in jail.

Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges and paying two teenage girls to pose for sexual photos.

Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.
Republican activist Randal David Ankeney pleaded guilty to attempted sexual assault on a child.
Republican Congressman Dan Crane had sex with a female minor working as a congressional page.
Republican activist and Christian Coalition leader Beverly Russell admitted to an incestuous relationship with his step daughter.

Republican congressman and anti-gay activist Robert Bauman was charged with having sex with a 16-year-old boy he picked up at a gay bar.

Republican Committee Chairman Jeffrey Patti was arrested for distributing a video clip of a 5-year-old girl being raped.

Republican activist Marty Glickman (a.k.a. “Republican Marty”), was taken into custody by Florida police on four counts of unlawful sexual activity with an underage girl and one count of delivering the drug LSD.

Republican legislative aide Howard L. Brooks was charged with molesting a 12-year old boy and possession of child pornography.

Republican Senate candidate John Hathaway was accused of having sex with his 12-year old baby sitter and withdrew his candidacy after the allegations were reported in the media.

Republican preacher Stephen White, who demanded a return to traditional values, was sentenced to jail after offering $20 to a 14-year-old boy for permission to perform oral sex on him.
Republican talk show host Jon Matthews pleaded guilty to exposing his genitals to an 11 year old girl.

Republican anti-gay activist Earl “Butch” Kimmerling was sentenced to 40 years in prison for molesting an 8-year old girl after he attempted to stop a gay couple from adopting her.
Republican Party leader Paul Ingram pleaded guilty to six counts of raping his daughters and served 14 years in federal prison.

Republican election board official Kevin Coan was sentenced to two years probation for soliciting sex over the internet from a 14-year old girl.

Republican politician Andrew Buhr was charged with two counts of first degree sodomy with a 13-year old boy.

Republican politician Keith Westmoreland was arrested on seven felony counts of lewd and lascivious exhibition to girls under the age of 16 (i.e. exposing himself to children).
Republican anti-abortion activist John Allen Burt was charged with sexual misconduct involving a 15-year old girl.

Republican County Councilman Keola Childs pleaded guilty to molesting a male child.

Republican activist John Butler was charged with criminal sexual assault on a teenage girl.

Republican candidate Richard Gardner admitted to molesting his two daughters.

Republican Councilman and former Marine Jack W. Gardner was convicted of molesting a 13-year old girl.

Republican County Commissioner Merrill Robert Barter pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual contact and assault on a teenage boy.

Republican City Councilman Fred C. Smeltzer, Jr. pleaded no contest to raping a 15 year-old girl and served 6-months in prison.

Republican activist Parker J. Bena pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography on his home computer and was sentenced to 30 months in federal prison and fined $18,000.

Republican parole board officer and former Colorado state representative, Larry Jack Schwarz, was fired after child pornography was found in his possession.

Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate Robin Vanderwall was convicted in Virginia on five counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.

Republican city councilman Mark Harris, who is described as a “good military man” and “church goer,” was convicted of repeatedly having sex with an 11-year-old girl and sentenced to 12 years in prison.

Republican businessman Jon Grunseth withdrew his candidacy for Minnesota governor after allegations surfaced that he went swimming in the nude with four underage girls, including his daughter.

Republican director of the “Young Republican Federation” Nicholas Elizondo molested his 6-year old daughter and was sentenced to six years in prison.

Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, Richard A. Dasen Sr., was charged with rape for allegedly paying a 15-year old girl for sex. Dasen, 62, who is married with grown children and several grandchildren, has allegedly told police that over the past decade he paid more than $1 million to have sex with a large number of young women.

Democratic donor and billionaire, Jeffrey Epstein, ran an underage child sex brothel and was convicted of soliciting underage girls for prostitution.

Democratic New York Congressman, Anthony Weiner, plead guilty to transferring obscene material to a minor as part of a plea agreement for sexted and sending Twitter DMs to underage girls as young as 15.

Democratic donor, activist, and Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein is being criminally prosecuted and civilly sued for years of sexual abuse (that was well known “secret” in Hollywood) including underage sexual activities with aspiring female actresses.

Democratic activist and #metoo proponent, Asia Argento, settled a lawsuit for sexual harassment stemming from sexual activities with an underage actor.

Democratic Mayor of Racine, Wisconsin, Gary Becker, was convicted of attempted child seduction, child pornography, and other child sex crimes.

Democratic Seattle Mayor Ed Murray resigned after multiple accusations of child sexual abuse were levied against him including by family members.

Democratic activist and aid to NYC Mayor De Blasio, Jacob Schwartz was arrested on possession of 3,000+ child pornographic images.

Democratic activist and actor, Russell Simmons, was sued based on an allegation of sexual assault where he coerced an underage model for sex.

Democratic Governor of Oregon, Neil Goldschmidt, after being caught by a newspaper, publicly admitted to having a past sexual relationship with a 13-year-old girl after the statute of limitations on the rape charges had expired.

Democratic Illinois Congressman, Mel Reynolds resigned from Congress after he was convicted of statutory rape of a 16-year-old campaign volunteer.

Democratic New York Congressman, Fred Richmond, was arrested in Washington D.C. for soliciting sex from a 16-year-old boy.

Democratic activist, donor, and director, Roman Polanski, fled the country after pleading guilty to statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl. Democrats and Hollywood actors still defend him to this day, including, Whoopi Goldberg, Martin Scorcese, Woody Allen, David Lynch, Wim Wenders, Pedro Almodovar, Tilda Swinton and Monica Bellucci.

Democratic State Senator from Alaska, George Jacko, was found guilty of sexual harassment of an underage legislative page.

Democratic State Representative candidate for Colorado, Andrew Myers, was convicted for possession of child pornography and enticing children.

Democratic Illinois Congressman, Gus Savage was investigated by the Democrat-controlled House Committee on Ethics for attempting to rape an underage female Peace Corps volunteer in Zaire. The Committee concluded that while the events did occur his apology was sufficient and took no further action.

Democratic activist, donor, and spokesperson for Subway, Jared Fogle, was convicted of distribution and receipt of child pornography and traveling to engage in illicit sexual conduct with a minor.

Democratic State Department official, Carl Carey, under Hillary Clinton’s state department, was arrested on ten counts of child porn possession.

Democratic Maine Assistant Attorney General, James Cameron, was sentenced to just over 15 years in federal prison for seven counts of child porn possession, receipt and transmission.

Democratic State Department official, Daniel Rosen, under Hillary Clinton’s state department, was arrested and charged with allegedly soliciting sex from a minor over the internet.

Democratic State Department official, James Cafferty, pleaded guilty to one count of transportation of child pornography.

Democratic radio host, Bernie Ward, plead guilty to one count of sending child pornography over the Internet.

Democratic deputy attorney general from California, Raymond Liddy, was arrested for possession of child pornography.

[pritch]

Yeah, given the following list, that none of that sort of thing would be able to take place, and yet.....................

That's an impressive list.

Gaetz wouldn't have to reveal someone else's sexual wrong doing specifically. Anything criminal would do, provided the person he is giving up is high enough up the food chain. Former prosecutors have mentioned that the feds will want someone higher than him. Juries do not like the accused giving evidence against smaller fish than themselves, consequently prosecutors tend to avoid that.

[mashman]

That's an impressive list.

Gaetz wouldn't have to reveal someone else's sexual wrong doing specifically. Anything criminal would do, provided the person he is giving up is high enough up the food chain. Former prosecutors have mentioned that the feds will want someone higher than him. Juries do not like the accused giving evidence against smaller fish than themselves, consequently prosecutors tend to avoid that.

They span at least 20 years unfortunately. As such, Gaetz could follow that example and keep his mouth shut, do his time, and then get on with life without having to look over his shoulder for the rest of his lives. Most likely that is. They also have Maxwell, although outwith extreme measures, she too will likely just shut the fuck up. How else do these things continue given the high level of people who have been getting knicked over the last X decades. Tis the way of the world it seems.

[TheDemonLord]

I've been meaning to reply to this - but feel it best to address in two posts - since there's 2 distinct ideas here)



3.1. The current EU trading implementation was the product of years of negotiation in itself. The EU team will have envisaged a fully fledged EU-UK (re-)negotiation programme needing several years , whereas the UK team wanted a simplified agreement - and to conclude the whole process within 12 months.

The EU team approached the agreement as if the UK was a Foreign entity that wasn't part of the EU in the first place, which is where the disconnect occurred.

In terms of the Vested interest - sure the EU wants to have it's cake - nothing wrong with that.

But doing it in a manner where you retain all the benefits, without any of the penalties - namely that the EU needs Britain to buy EU goods, and should the EU insist on certain rules that will hurt Britain, it must be prepared for Britain the reciprocate - and that's where many Brexiteers were frustrated in Theresa May's initial negotiation.


3.2. The EU would have obviously seen some financial advantage in taking their time with negotiations (e.g. an extended period of UK levy contributions; a possible shift by some manufacturing and banking organisations from the UK to the EU bloc in the interim).

It's the first part for me - and feel free to label me as Jaded or Cynical.


3.3. Some of the Brussels civil service involved in regulating EU trade would have had a vested self-interest in maintaining the status quo (i.e. avoid job losses or of benefits).

Who wants to upset the Gravy Train?


I'm not a close follower of UK politics, but my understanding was that Theresa May was effectively trying to negotiate a Brexit deal largely to satisfy a specific section of the Conservative Party (the most ardent Brexiteers). Reflecting internal splits within the party.

Theresa voted Remain and in hindsight, it's clear her heart just wasn't in it.

You raise a good point about the Schism inside the Conservative Party - in much the same way that Trump represented a Schism in the Republicans - between the traditional Liberal conservatives (small Government types) and the Neo Conservative types.

The Tory defectors (people who crossed the floor based on the Brexit vote) ironically got summarily ousted by their constituents when the Boris election was held - which shows IMO the disconnect between the people and the politicians.

Fundamentally - in terms of what Brexit needed to achieve was freedom from the ECJ - realistically from there flows everything else that people objected to, part of Theresa's initial deal (going from memory) was some weird hybrid situation.

I should also point out - I generally don't follow UK politics from a daily perspective - however Brexit was such a monumental issue, that I followed that quite closely.


Quite in contrast to Boris's subsequent negotiating behaviour (a clear "Exit the EU" - and with a "No Deal" option clearly visible in the background as late as mid December 2020). Before he then quickly changed tack and concluded an EU-UK FTA (marginally better than a "hard Brexit").

And that is where Boris being a Brexiteer really shone through - Boris was happy to hold the sword of Damacles of a no-deal over the EU, in order to negotiate a Deal, something I don't feel Theresa ever did.

5. Financial Services

Your comment "... In the Long-run, I think the UK will be fine - we always have been fine" may well end up being true. <_<[/quote]

To be honest - I don't deal too much in the Money Laundering sector - the only thing I can really posit is that with any sufficient scale of industry, corruption will creep in. Either because of people willing to be corrupt and actively engage in it, or simply because it's easier to hide when it's at scale

[pritch]

Matty no mates.


https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/11/politics/matt-gaetz-donald-trump-denied-meeting/index.html

[TheDemonLord]

Post 2 - specifically concerning China



China
Given the phases you mentioned for development (growth), I can't see the Chinese life cycle being overly different from several other countries. Other than the fact that it was possibly more highly successful (and in a shorter time period), and that it has also shifted itself up the product value chain as well.

Is that much different as for a number of other countries (e.g. some of the Asian Tigers of the 1990's ? India ? Israel ?)

I think the fundamental structure of China (One party state, the Social Credit system, the casual attitude to rights when the state decides it) is what separates it. And this will come up again later in this post.



Given the Chinese proclivity to trade, it's no surprise that China has sought to spread its wings globally within the last 20 years and to widen its trade base (especially with more developed / wealthier western nations whose citizens have more disposable income). But China has obviously distinguished itself further, in that it has also sought:

(i) To develop trading routes and nodes throughout Asia and Europe = OBOR
(ii) To improve its future technical capability via AI / Robotic initiatives = Made in China 2025
(iii) To grow its physical economy via use of a mixed economic model = Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics
(iv) To improve the economic situation of a substantial portion of its population = Increasing Middle Class (wealth).

As an outcome, China has now become a significant economic power in its own right. And a strong economic competitor to the US.

All of the above I have no issue with - Let traders trade - however there's something that I will expand on later - 'With Chinese Characteristics'


Wherein lies the "problem" for the US. In that China is now able to resist US influence to some extent, as well as surpass western technical capabilities in some areas.

But probably more annoying (for the US), it has been able to do so largely independent of direct US ownership and control of Chinese assets. And placing some restrictions on the actions of western corporations operating in China.

I think the more pressing concern is two-fold for the US:

1: Chinese courts do not uphold Western copyright law. So a US company can invest a large amount of time and resources into developing something new and exciting, only for a Chinese company to copy it and when the US take the Chinese company to court in the Chinese legal system, the Chinese judge rules in favour of the Chinese company

2: the CCP and their controlling interest in Companies. This is perhaps the biggest sticking point - consider a US company that it outright hostile to the US Government or even the US as an Ideal (not a difficult task), you can be certain that there is no US Government influence, other than the rule of law. Not so with a Chinese company - Some may have more freedom from the CCP than others, but as a trading partner, you can never be 100% certain what degree of oversight or info is being shared or taken by the CCP


What did amuse me in your story was the transition - whereby now having gained some degree of economic parity, China is supposedly going to start displaying some Jeykll-and-Hyde personality change (supposedly seeking to "turn off some tap" and to "cripple the West"). The obvious question to that assertion is simply "why ?".

So I'm going to use Disney and Star Wars as an example - bearing in mind that Disney, like most Hollywood industries have loudly and proudly declared their allegiance to the Woke Social Justice agenda. What they did with the latest Star Wars films a clear testament to this (Mary Sue characters, diversity hire choices etc. Treatment of Luke Skywalker etc.)

When it came to release the new Star Wars Movie in China - what happened? They digitally altered the poster to remove one of the prominent actors (who played Finn), because he's African American.

Why would a Company that destroyed the most profitable franchise in history for the sake of social justice, suddenly do the very opposite of what their supposed principles are? The answer is that China has a long standing history of Racism, specifically against black people. But surely Disney would stand on it's principles, right? 'Stand up to Racism', 'End Racism' and all the other pithy corporate Slogans?

I posit that there was either explicit or implicit pressure 'Do this, or we won't allow the film to be released' - so now China gets a controlling say in how a foreign company conducts business if it wants to retain access to the lucrative chinese market.


In contrast, the US has had plenty of practice in this respect, having been doing this all across the globe the past 50+ years (often in conjunction with the IMF and the World Bank). Simply in order to maintain its own economic position and to preserve its western lifestyle. And where the US has been unable to dominate some specific country militarily (i.e. via invasion or military bases), it has often resorted to some combination of:

(i) Attempted regime change
(ii) Financial sanctions - such as restrictions to the US banking systems, USD, or to bank credit
(iii) Pressure on the local currency
(iv) Indirectly encouraging the target to take out foreign currency loans (via the IMF or WB), and then imposing austerity conditions and forcing state asset sales if repayments faltered.


Yep - fair points, the US have been scummy, no disagreement there - however I want to ask this question:

If there was a US Empire, that - like the British, extended US principles to the Colonial territories.
If there was a Chinese Empire, that - like the British, extended Chinese principles to the Colonial territories.
If there was a Communist Empire, that - like the British, extended Communist principles to the Colonial territories.

In which colony would you want to live? The last one I added in there because most of the more dubious acts where against Communist regimes. I don't know about you - but I'd take a written constitution with the Bill of rights of any alternative, any day of the week.

The more important question - where would you want your opponents to live? Those that disagree with you? For me, with the exception of a few groups (so they could experience the outcome of the ideas they are professing, so they can know why they are terrible ideas), I'd want my opponents to enjoy the same freedoms and liberties as me.

And even with that exception, it's only short-term so they can see the error of their ways.


One should not assume that China has the same social or political objectives as the US, nor that it will adopt the same operational model.

I agree they don't have the same social and political goals, it's the differences that concern me.

I think you must have been reading too many western based think-tank reports recently. <_<


Uyghurs
You feel free to get excited by western media stories about Muslim Uyghur persecution in Xinjiang, but excuse me if I don't join you. Simply because there is more than enough information online to present a much truer picture of the situation on the ground, and the motivations of the various actors involved e.g.

https://off-guardian.org/2019/07/23/march-of-the-uyghurs/
https://journal-neo.org/2018/10/05/china-s-uyghur-problem-the-unmentioned-part/
https://consortiumnews.com/2021/02/22/the-us-genocide-accusation-against-china/
https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-far-right-regime-change-network-fall-china/

In some respects, similar to the Chechen situation in the Russian southern provinces in the early-to-mid 1990's . In that case, both the US and Saudi were involved in providing funds and fighters to stir up the local Muslim populations.

I'll agree that I oversimplified it for dramatic effect, however I still hold that there is enough undisputed evidence to call what is happening to the Uyghurs a Genocide. I tend to take a very absolutist view on these things.


Soft Power
I was also amused by your comment about "soft power". Is it only OK when it is wielded by western states (our traditional friends - like the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc), but it is not OK when it is wielded by their economic competitors (like China, Russia)?

This is a fantastic question. Both from a philosophical point of view and from the specifics here:

The short answer is it's okay when it's backed by mandate from the masses. Power needs to be held accountable. In a traditional democracy, that's at the Ballot Box. Where is the Accountability for Xie Jing ping? Who do the Chinese people vote for if they are unhappy with the roll out of the Social Credit system?

The same could very much be said for Russia and Putin.

Add into this - I touched on it earlier about the application of Law - If 2 Countries are playing by the same rules, then any disagreement can be negotiated out. It might take time, it might even take Sabre Rattling - but it's possible to do.

Whereas if one country plays by your rules when it works in their favour, but their own rules when it suits them (like the aforementioned Copyright issue) then it fundamentally can't be negotiated, because one side is not playing fair.


The US has been bleating about its loss of reputation ("soft power") in the age of Trump, due to events such as:

(i) US Covid management
(ii) conducting a trade war with China, disrupting global trade and supply chains
(iii) the Trump administration's hard nosed position re EU NATO funding
(iv) willingness to sanction the EU, where it had sought to engage with either Russia or China.

But this has simply been the latest in a long line of events since at least year 2000, and spanning both Republican and Democrat administrations. Events such as:

(i) starting and progressing a list of wars ("7 wars in 5 years") costing some $ 6 Trillion
(ii) pushing the rapid expansion of NATO across eastern and southern Europe
(iii) causing the 2008 GFC, which then rippled out across the whole world
(iv) an ongoing lack of US willingness to allow certain states to decide their own political future, and initiating "colour revolutions".

It should therefore be no surprise that China - with its focus on trade and on OBOR projects - has increased its "soft power" (despite all the adverse western media commentary), while that of the US has declined.

[/QUOTE]

I disagree with your assessment that this is a Trump thing - Most of the issues were Bush/Obama - and a lot of Conservative outlets pointed out that Obama allowed other nations to out-maneuver the US on the international Stage. Something that Trump reversed - whether it's by cunning diplomacy, or tweeting to North Korea that he's got a bigger Nuclear Button and it works.

In other posts, when people have critiqued Trump, I've been quick to point out that every single President in my lifetime has contributed to the issue that Trump attempted to fix (whether you agree with his Sledgehammer approach or not)

With the Trump administration, the willingness to lean on nations to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules lead to reclaiming of that Soft Power (even if the various left-wing outlets hated it) - and as a perfect demonstration - the Migrant crisis at the US Border - Trump was clear and unequivocal, whereas Biden has been caught napping.

[TheDemonLord]

Dunno what to say. Too much of what the RWNJs believe has no connection to reality. None. The irregularities and anomolies they saw in the election just did not exist. At all.

They definitely existed - we have the numbers to show they existed. Things that have not happened since Voting began in the US, things that haven't happened in nearly 100 years. Those are definitively irregularities.

The question was whether they prove there was Election fraud or not.

For me - they cast reasonable suspicion on the result, without being able to meet the threshold of beyond all reasonable doubt.


Yet they clung to them with dogged determination.

They didn't get any of that from the left wing press.

I can point you to any number of debunked ideas that regularly get trotted out by the Left Wing press, in particular, The Guardian - so I wouldn't go throwing that stone in that glasshouse.


Today a Repblican politician from Georgia admitted that their Jim Crow 2.0 voter suppression laws were based entirely on Trump's big lie that the election was stolen.
The lie the RWNJs believed.
You probably won't read about that in the RWNJ press though.

The question is: Do you object to requiring a State-issued photo ID for Voting? What about Driving? Or What about Firearm ownership?

Put aside for a moment your unprovable assertions that it's Voter suppression.

No Republican has a problem with being subjected to this standard of behaviour. It will ensure that only those who are eligible to vote, can vote.

The left-wing claim is that this is to disenfranchise people who can vote but don't have a state issued ID is at best a few massive leaps of logic. However, if you were to ask the Republicans about this - I'm sure they'd be happy to have a waiver for low-income families who might struggle to get the $20 for a State issued ID.

Some of the more hard-core right wingers might point out that if you can't sort your life out to the point where you can organize a State issued ID, perhaps you shouldn't be voting. But you'll notice in that statement there's no mention of skin tone, colour or Hue.

The rule applies equally to everyone, as it should.

[sugilite]

They definitely existed - we have the numbers to show they existed. Things that have not happened since Voting began in the US, things that haven't happened in nearly 100 years. Those are definitively irregularities.

The question was whether they prove there was Election fraud or not.

For me - they cast reasonable suspicion on the result, without being able to meet the threshold of beyond all reasonable doubt.

Why is it that you have such a high standard of proof for right wing conspiracies, but such a low standard for the left ones. Like the publisher of Seuss books withdrawing some and you going, that sounds like the left applied pressure - good enough!
30 lost cases in court vs 1 for trumps lawyers, and nope, still not enough proof for you. Despite some of them being Trump appointed judges etc. If the left had these genius in place capable of rigging the general election and completely avoiding detection, they surely would of won the senate by a handy margin etc.
To my mind, that is just as biased as both sides of the pathetic media are being.
Though on election night and a few days after, a weird transformation took over fox and they actually became a principled news service. Normal service has since resumed.

[TheDemonLord]

Why is it that you have such a high standard of proof for right wing conspiracies, but such a low standard for the left ones. Like the publisher of Seuss books withdrawing some and you going, that sounds like the left applied pressure - good enough!

Because I've seen the same pattern repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

For me - This has been something I have been watching since before 2011 - at the start of the Atheism Schism (really starting with Elevator-Gate) - There is a history here that I doubt you've read or you've witnessed. Does that colour my views? Most certainly. Does it diminish the fact we can objectively point to the same patterns each and every time and for where the info might be thin, connect the dots? Not at all.

And at time of writing, looks like Captain Underpants is the next to fall foul of the Social Justice mob.

I might be a little more inclined if it wasn't such a regular occurrence or with nearly identical identifying marks - but alas.


30 lost cases in court vs 1 for trumps lawyers, and nope, still not enough proof for you. Despite some of them being Trump appointed judges etc. If the left had these genius in place capable of rigging the general election and completely avoiding detection, they surely would of won the senate by a handy margin etc.

There's a difference between knowing something happened and being able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt exactly what happened.

As for the Senate - consider this: You've got people from multiple areas fraudulently casting ballots, but you can't expect them to know the Senator for the area they are currently forging their vote for, but you can expect them to vote for Biden.

That would certainly explain a number of the anomalies quite nicely. Whereas a normal Person casting a vote would vote both for their Presidential candidate and their Representative.

I'm not saying that this was the case - but given the example you raised, it certainly does explain the peculiar voting pattern we saw....

[pritch]

Because I've seen the same pattern repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.


Whether it happened or not.



And at time of writing, looks like Captain Underpants is the next to fall foul of the Social Justice mob.


The Dr Seuss books that were canned were treated thus because they weren't selling and there were concerens about some of the content. It was the estate of the writer that canned them. There has been no reliable link to the "Social Justice mob." The likes of Matt Gaetz and Gym Jordan do not count as reliable.

It's almost as if you don't think the RWNJs are into cancel culture. They scream about it non stop but they are busy doing it themselves. It's just a distraction while they go about the serious work of rigging elections..

[TheDemonLord]

Whether it happened or not.

Indeed, and we'll get to that...


The Dr Seuss books that were canned were treated thus because they weren't selling and there were concerens about some of the content. It was the estate of the writer that canned them.

So which is it? Was it purely a financial decision? Or were there concerns about the Content. Concerns which *perfectly* coincide with the rise of certain social movements?

Whether it was explicit pressure - someone saying something to the Estate
or Implicit pressure - seeing other people fall foul of the Mob and deciding to self-censure.

In your own statement - to refute me, you provide the very proof of my position.


There has been no reliable link to the "Social Justice mob." The likes of Matt Gaetz and Gym Jordan do not count as reliable.

Except the timing, the reasons, the state-mandated apology, the genuflecting before the altar of Wokeness.


It's almost as if you don't think the RWNJs are into cancel culture. They scream about it non stop but they are busy doing it themselves. It's just a distraction while they go about the serious work of rigging elections..

Every right wing or libertarian Pundit I listen to has never called for someone to be Cancelled. In fact, they often make direct Appeals to people of the opposing view to come and discuss their position with them. Something you never see in the Left-Wing circles.

I've heard them be called to be held to the same standard as the Right Wingers - for example - if I were to go to Twitter and post something like "Fuck all white Men" - I can be reasonably safe that my Twitter account wouldn't get banned. Whereas if I merely change the race mentioned, we can be certain it would be banned.

That, however, is not Cancel Culture, that is an appeal to have the rules applied equally.

[Viking01]

....

With the Trump administration, the willingness to lean on nations to ensure that everyone is playing by the rules lead to reclaiming of that Soft Power (even if the various left-wing outlets hated it) - and as a perfect demonstration - the Migrant crisis at the US Border - Trump was clear and unequivocal, whereas Biden has been caught napping.

In response to earlier DL post #2905. [ F5 Dave - Just ignore - No need to read. :msn-wink:]

Have been busy this week, so my first opportunity to reply. Following the sequence of your earlier reply.

Fundamental Structure of China

(i) One Party System - Yes , I'll credit you that. The CCP calls it a “socialist consultative democracy”. The party sits atop a multi-layer local government structure (province, municipality, prefecture, county and town).

https://www.scmp.com/knowledge/topics/china-two-sessions

(ii) Social Credit System - Will become so as time passes. But given China's recent history, its current population of 1.4 billion, and the various external parties seeking to exert pressure and destabilise China, then it’s no real surprise that such a system has been developed. At the same time, it's not as if the intent has not been telegraphed well in advance.

https://chinacopyrightandmedia.wordpress.com/2014/06/14/planning-outline-for-the-construction-of-a-social-credit-system-2014-2020/

http://chinarising.puntopress.com/2018/01/11/chinas-public-social-credit-system-versus-the-wests-secret-panopticon-china-rising-radio-sinoland-180111/

I won’t mention the NSA and the other monitoring and intelligence gathering services operating in the US if you don’t. :msn-wink:

(iii) Approach to Human Rights - Different ? Yes. Casual ? No.

https://dissidentvoice.org/2020/10/the-communist-party-of-china-putting-the-people-first/

https://www.unz.com/article/chinas-human-rights-gap/

https://www.unz.com/article/human-rights-in-china-and-america/

Copyright Law

US Dispute on Copyright Law: Not my area of expertise. But I think one has to recognise:

(i) The willingness with which previous US administrations allowed the out-sourcing of US manufacturing activity to China because of the attraction of its low labour cost.

See Trump's own comment in the second linked article below (see (iii) immediately below, following the picture of Kissinger and Zhou En Lai meeting).

(ii) The fact that many US product owners who out-sourced to China were not particularly concerned about their own product IP - since their products were either not "high tech" (i.e. they could be easily reverse engineered) or they considered that their own profit gain far out-weighed any "nominal loss of IP". [ Not to mention the fact that Chinese knowledge of the IP was actually needed to facilitate some of the manufacturing processes themselves. ]

(iii) The fact that China realises its past-practice in the IP arena will not necessarily continue unchecked going into the future, and that it must provide some more robust protections for external IP.

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/2170132/how-chinas-rampant-intellectual-property-theft

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/2152874/us-china-trade-war-can-trump-learn-history-and

My understanding is that trade-marking was originally intended to allow manufacturers a "head-start" (a time period within which to be able to manufacture and sell their product, sufficient to establish brand, recover R&D costs and to earn a moderate margin - before competitors could then enter the same market and develop / sell a comparable product).

But times have changed. In our neoliberal world, focus has shifted much more to earning of rentier income.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/04/16/americas-neoliberal-financialization-policy-vs-chinas-industrial-socialism/

Using trademark as a barrier to competitor entry, a more recent US attempt to try and extend maximum trademark life (from 50 to 75 years?) spoke to me more of being able to earn greater rentier income (rather than perform more in the way of product reinvestment and new product development).

While great for the IP owner, the amount of product development in the global market would likely be reduced, and product advancement delayed.

CCP and Controlling Interest

Oversight by the CCP - A little unclear exactly what point that you're seeking to make. Oversight of what by the CCP ? Types of information that might become available to the CCP? Importance ?

If “controlling interest” was such an issue, then why are major US organisations (such as Apple, Ford and GM, Caterpillar, Boeing) still choosing to continue to operate manufacturing plants within China ? Why haven’t they followed Trump’s earlier diktat, and started relocating to the US ?

Disney and Star Wars
Surely the issue was one for Disney to decide - whether it puts its own financial profit ahead of its supposed principles ?

China does not necessarily subscribe to supposed American values, and obviously has its own set of values (and sensitivities). So why would you expect US corporates to somehow be “exempted” when operating in China? Are US corporates "exceptional" in some respect, and deserving of special treatment?

“China has a long standing history of Racism, specifically against black people.” [Your words]

Just as well the same has not applied in the US - well, not since the end of the US Civil War. BLM, you can stand down now. :msn-wink:

List of US Actions Taken Over the Past 50 Years

"Yes, fair points, the US has been scummy". [Your words]

Only scummy ? So what more would they have to have done to be regarded as truly reprehensible? :msn-wink:

You mentioned later on in your post that some of the "more dubious acts" by the US were performed on Communist regimes. [ Let’s extend that to Socialist regimes and Authoritarian regimes as well ].

So, does that make those actions by the US somehow more acceptable ?

What about US actions such as imposing sanctions on countries - deliberate restrictions upon supplies such as food / medicines / medical equipment - resulting in malnutrition or death of large numbers of foreign civilians ?

https://archive.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/170-sanctions/41952.html

What about a socialist country like Cuba ? Which happens to deploy a type of "bottom-up consultative style“ of democracy similar to that within China ?

Subject to severe US sanctions for 60+ years, but yet it has still managed to not only develop and deploy a very comprehensive medical system at home (in some cases superior to the US), but also choosing to help other countries with combating Covid ?

https://apnews.com/article/98cfdbf5c4a62a40eba648723e452f3e

https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/03/17/cubas-contribution-to-combatting-covid-19/

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/01/23/popular-democracy-in-cuba/

Empires and Colonies

Empires
If there was a US Empire ? Surely that’s simply the world as we currently know it (with its regional command structures, and its 800+ military bases deployed globally)?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_combatant_command

And what are these supposed "guiding principles" that you talk of ? Maybe a short list would be helpful.

If there was a Chinese Empire ? Well, if one ever eventuates, then I guess we'll both know the answer to that question. :msn-wink:

Capitalist vs Communist
I often ignore this type of question in an argument, as it is often deployed where one party tries to win a point by restricting focus to just a single factor (in this case, economic model). Offering only two options (black or white) without mention of any shades of grey in-between. But, as with so many things in life, there are "shades of grey".

So, in answer to your question "which country would I prefer to live in"? The US or China ?

If "black" was the US (with its current capitalistic system) and "white" was China (with its mixed economic system), I would prefer to live in neither.

Because I have been perfectly happy living here in NZ, and I do so for many reasons - not just one.

For a combination of factors such as (i) my home for most of my life (ii) language (iii) family and friends (iv) low population density (v) a safe society (vi) political stability (vii) education and employment opportunities (viii) physical environment. Just to name a few.

And if I couldn't live here in NZ, well, there is still a number of other countries where I'd prefer to live before considering either the US or China (e.g. one of the "grey" social democracies in Scandinavia).

My opinions on China has been gleaned from history books I’ve read about the country, newspaper and magazine articles the last few years, and from periodic email interaction with a few Chinese contacts living in mainland China or Hong Kong.

Chinese people living in China will have a different life experience and perception. Satisfaction surveys have been conducted by both Chinese and western-based entities:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/

Written Constitutions and Bills of Rights

I recognise that the US possesses both a written Constitution as well as a Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments to the Constitution), but I would have thought that having a Constitution and a Bill of Rights is only of value to the general population if they are observed and honoured in the breech.

From a general observation of life in the US the past 20+ years, it would appear that it has been “open shooting season” on many of the first 10 amendments over that time. [ And not just the first 10 amendments. ]

https://www.mapsofworld.com/answers/world/countries-having-uncodified-constitution/#

As for NZ, it may have an uncodified Constitution, but it also possesses a Bill of Rights. I’ll still settle for living in NZ, thanks. Uncodified Constitution or not.

Uyghurs in China
" I'll agree that I oversimplified it for dramatic effect, however I still hold that there is enough undisputed evidence to call what is happening to the Uyghurs a Genocide”. [Your words]

Did you now ? :msn-wink:

I would have thought that with an accusation of “genocide”, then no dramatisation was actually required. Assuming that there was some degree of truth in the original accusations.

So, when you find some moderately reliable information about the situation on the ground (preferably not from one of the NGO’s operated or supported by the West), then you post up a few links of this “undisputed evidence”.

Soft Power
“The short answer is it's okay when it's backed by mandate from the masses.” [Your words]

Well, I suppose on that basis, China, with its 1.4 billion population and its “bottom-up consultative style” of democracy is fully entitled to exercise its “soft power”.

"Power needs to be held accountable. In a traditional democracy, that's at the Ballot Box.”

Just one vote ? Once every 3 or 4 years ? Is that all the average citizen gets ? Is that meant to keep the political system robust, and the political parties honest ?

What happens in a traditional democracy where (just for argument sake):

(i) A significant proportion of eligible voters are denied the right to vote because of restrictive state rules (voter registration) or are denied ready access to voting booths (on voting day)?
(ii) Gerry-mandering of electoral boundaries occurs?
(iii) The country operates an electoral-college system? Where certain small states get a disproportionate number of electoral-college voters, or where the elected reps do not necessarily need to allocate their votes according to the majority popular vote of the state?
(iv) Policy finally adopted by the “winning party” can be influenced via party campaign donations by influential people or organisations?

What do the citizens of such a country do then ?

“Where is the Accountability for Xi Jing Pin?” [Your words]

If you look at the “Government” and “Communist Party” sub-sections of the following link, you can probably work out the linkages and accountability:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_China#Elections

As for any accusation of Xi being a dictator, free to do as he pleases:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/26/98516/

Application of Law and International Rules

What exactly are these global sets of rules you talk about?

Are these international rules - as developed and decided upon by say UN institutions, and outlined within past International Charters or Conventions (e.g. Geneva Convention) ?

Or do you mean some “rules based international order”, where the US gets to decide who makes the rules, and to decide which ones to enforce (or not enforce)?

The US has been busy either exiting a number of international organisations (or weakening their operation) over the past few years, which seems to imply that it is not willing to be bound by a set of international rules - unless of course they happen to be in US best interest.

https://theprint.in/world/paris-deal-to-who-the-11-organisations-donald-trumps-us-has-pulled-out-of-weakened/432486/

We should add the ICC to the list as well, which the US exited in 2002 (soon after Yugoslavia had been disassembled, and just after the start of the US “7 Wars in 5 Years” programme i.e. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc).

https://www.rferl.org/a/explainer-why-does-u-s-have-it-out-for-international-criminal-court-/29484529.html

And while the Biden administration has since either voluntarily re-joined (WHO, Paris Climate Accord) or sought to re-join (UNHRC), it seems to me more out of US self-interest (simple recognition that “if you are not sitting at the table and participating, you don’t get any input to or control over the rules”).

Given interest by US pharmaceutical lobby groups (re WHO), US interest in either weakening Climate Change initiatives / targets or deciding upon and financing of Green Deal projects (re Paris Climate Accord), or in protecting US (or Israeli) troops against possible international prosecution for alleged war crimes (re UNHRC), it should perhaps not be a surprise.

https://journal-neo.org/2021/04/05/respect-for-a-real-system-of-international-law-long-overdue/

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/521257-us-china-whipping-up-fear/

The Age of Trump

I agree with you in that the “loss of US soft power” was already occurring during earlier US administrations, though I’d argue that Trump has certainly helped to accelerate the process.

“Cunning diplomacy”? C’mon. Nothing about Trump or his actions were “cunning” or “diplomatic”. He was obviously a graduate of the Theodore Roosevelt school of diplomacy (“Speak softly and carry a big stick”), except in Trump’s case, he had modified the mantra to “shout loudly”. :msn-wink:

Incidentally, “soft power” (when possessed and well exercised) should largely obviate the need for “leaning on other nations”.


My 2c worth.

[pritch]

Trump is famous for not paying his bills. Venue hire for his rallies was often paid late. Accounts for the security costs associated with the rallies just went unpaid. Albuquerque is not happy about their unpaid bill, they've called in the debt collectors.


https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-04-23/albuquerque-sends-unpaid-trump-reelection-campaign-bill-to-collections-agency

[pritch]

The Trumplicans are struggling to find any mud to stick to Biden. Their reaction is to make stuff up and toss it in his direction anyway. An example of this was the furore over Biden banning the Dr Suess books. Nobody with an IQ over room temperature was sucked in, but the gullible went for it.

Talking heads at FOX have been discussing Biden's emissions targets and coming up with their own extrapolations of what the figures might mean. In one instance they decided that the targets will affect agriculture significantly, particularly the production of red meat. This is now being broadcast as people will only be permitted one hamburger per month under Biden's new regime.

As if this was not absurd enough, up steps Larry "hold my beer" Kudlow who announced that under Biden's new regime, beer will have to be plant based. I already considered Kudlow a clown but he has excelled himself. God knows what beer he's been drinking.

The sooner FOX is shut down the better.

[F5 Dave]

Probably not this.

[sugilite]

Oh dear, how sad :wings:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300288321/federal-agents-execute-search-warrant-at-rudy-giulianis-home

[TheDemonLord]

Oh dear, how sad :wings:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300288321/federal-agents-execute-search-warrant-at-rudy-giulianis-home

Now, I've got no skin in the game of Rudy Giulianis, but does that not absolutely reek?

[pritch]

Oh dear, how sad :wings:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300288321/federal-agents-execute-search-warrant-at-rudy-giulianis-home

Ah yes. A great start to the day. The Schadenfreude is strong today. It wasn’t just Giuliani either, other members of Trumps legal team had similar visits.

[husaberg]

Ah yes. A great start to the day. The Schadenfreude is strong today. It wasn’t just Giuliani either, other members of Trumps legal team had similar visits.

off same feed "Julie" claimed the Borat crew were trying to "extort him" to prevent the movie keeing the footage of his young girl "pants incident"

[pritch]

Michael Cohen, Trump’s former lawyer, says of Rudy Giuliani, more recently Trump’s lawyer, “I don’t recall ever seeing Rudy sober.”

Cohen predicts Giuliani will sing.

[sugilite]

Some may remember me speculating about the name of Trumps pending "Platform". Well, Turd talk it is! As in just one turd talking - Trump. He has just released the platform after many months of "development".
The hilarious thing is - it is just a blog that only he can talk on. No interaction from others, including his fans. No wonder he never even released a brief on a new health policy, yet alone an actual replacement for Obama care. Even funnier is all the fan bois over at fox raving about how this "blog" is going to put facebook and twitter out of business. There is your hard earned donations at work suckers :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-launches-new-communications-platform-months-after-twitter-facebook-ban

[TheDemonLord]

Some may remember me speculating about the name of Trumps pending "Platform". Well, Turd talk it is! As in just one turd talking - Trump. He has just released the platform after many months of "development".
The hilarious thing is - it is just a blog that only he can talk on. No interaction from others, including his fans. No wonder he never even released a brief on a new health policy, yet alone an actual replacement for Obama care. Even funnier is all the fan bois over at fox raving about how this "blog" is going to put facebook and twitter out of business. There is your hard earned donations at work suckers :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-launches-new-communications-platform-months-after-twitter-facebook-ban

To me, that looks like an MVP release (Minimum Viable Product)

The interface is reasonably clean (although personally, I'd remove the donate flags - since it clutters the look), I'd add an infinite scroll and as you quite correctly pointed out, there needs to be a way and a means for other people to interact with the content.

Will it put them out of business? I'd be very surprised tbh, although I do remember Yahoo being the undisputed victor of the Search Engine wars in the late 90s and then came along Google... I also remember MySpace being *the* social media platform... before Facebook...

[sugilite]

To me, that looks like an MVP release (Minimum Viable Product)

The interface is reasonably clean (although personally, I'd remove the donate flags - since it clutters the look), I'd add an infinite scroll and as you quite correctly pointed out, there needs to be a way and a means for other people to interact with the content.

Will it put them out of business? I'd be very surprised tbh, although I do remember Yahoo being the undisputed victor of the Search Engine wars in the late 90s and then came along Google... I also remember MySpace being *the* social media platform... before Facebook...

Go to the home page of the site and the pop up window wants you to buy a cap, mug or t shirt. That is the most important message he wants to share :nya:
Get rid of the pop up and you have precisely 3 funnels - one to donate, one to shop, and the other to sign up - undoubtedly so they can brow beat you for donations.
Yahoo and my space were usurped by superior technology. This is a blog :lol::lol::lol:

You or I could of banged this out by lunch time using free software, how long did it take them?

This could not even be described as a low bar, more a dry twig on the ground :rolleyes:

[TheDemonLord]

Go to the home page of the site and the pop up window wants you to buy a cap, mug or t shirt. That is the most important message he wants to share :nya:
Get rid of the pop up and you have precisely 3 funnels - one to donate, one to shop, and the other to sign up - undoubtedly so they can brow beat you for donations.
Yahoo and my space were usurped by superior technology. This is a blog :lol::lol::lol:

You or I could of banged this out by lunch time using free software, how long did it take them?

This could not even be described as a low bar, more a dry twig on the ground :rolleyes:

I'm not gonna lie - I have been tempted to by a MAGA Cap....

Remember though, we are only seeing the front end - There's a myriad of ways to setup a Blog, even using free tools - Most of them can be made to look indistinguishable from each other - but with vastly different architectures and scalability on the back-end - Hence why I'm not quite ready to slam it as a piss-poor effort.

Especially if they have built it fro the ground up to handle the kind of scale of the likes of Facebook/Twitter etc. That WOULD take months, even if the functionality looks the same as a shared hosted Wordpress blog.

[sugilite]

I'm not gonna lie - I have been tempted to by a MAGA Cap....

Remember though, we are only seeing the front end - There's a myriad of ways to setup a Blog, even using free tools - Most of them can be made to look indistinguishable from each other - but with vastly different architectures and scalability on the back-end - Hence why I'm not quite ready to slam it as a piss-poor effort.

Especially if they have built it fro the ground up to handle the kind of scale of the likes of Facebook/Twitter etc. That WOULD take months, even if the functionality looks the same as a shared hosted Wordpress blog.

Fair enough, but I would not squander a launch by releasing a half baked product, bloody hell it is not even that.
What we have here is a Look at my underwhelming front end, but you should see my invisible back end :laugh:

[TheDemonLord]

Fair enough, but I would not squander a launch by releasing a half baked product, bloody hell it is not even that.
What we have here is a Look at my underwhelming front end, but you should see my invisible back end :laugh:

I can't tell you how many times I've been personally involved in roll-outs that are, as you say, 'half baked' - it's one of the things that pisses me off about the modern development cycle - Pre-Orders, releases with Day 1 patches, MVP releases....

[sugilite]

Barr the wanker.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300300849/judge-blasts-william-barr-justice-department-for-disingenuous-handling-of-secret-donald-trump-obstruction-memo

[pritch]

Barr the wanker.


Barr may be having difficulty sleeping lately. Moscow Mitch might be starting to wonder if he didn't make a mistake in not holding a confirmation hearing for Merrick Garland's appointment to the Supreme Court. Garland could be doing serious damage to the Republicans as Attorney General. Nothing that wasn't entirely due either.

Thing is the Dems can't dither about. They need to nail Trump, Barr, Giuliani, etc, before the next election. Otherwise Trump will keep pretending he was exonerated and there is no shortage of fuckwits will believe him.

Update: A former US Solicitor General has suggested that any lawyer who did work for Trump during his presidency had better consult a lawyer. They will likely all have all been exposed to Trump's criminality. I'll drink to that. :drinkup:

[TheDemonLord]

Thing is the Dems can't dither about. They need to nail Trump, Barr, Giuliani, etc, before the next election. Otherwise Trump will keep pretending he was exonerated and there is no shortage of fuckwits will believe him.


Impeached twice, ACQUITTED, TWICE

No belief required, it's the objective record.

[sugilite]

Impeached twice, ACQUITTED, TWICE

No belief required, it's the objective record.

Remind me again, what group of people acquitted him? Was it a jury of peers, or a group of fellow party cronies afraid of a storm of mean tweets if they did not tow the PARTY line?

[TheDemonLord]

Remind me again, what group of people acquitted him? Was it a jury of peers, or a group of fellow party cronies afraid of a storm of mean tweets if they did not tow the PARTY line?

The same question could be asked as to who Impeached him.

[pritch]

Impeached twice, ACQUITTED, TWICE

No belief required, it's the objective record.




Impeachment is a political process. With any luck Trump, and his cronies, will now face a judicial process. A whole nutha thing.

[pritch]

In what was probably a predicatable move Trump joined Twitter under an alias. Today his new account was axed.

[pritch]

It is reported that Giuliani has asked Trump to access some of the hundreds of millions he rorted from the gullible to "fight his legal battles". As ever Trump does not like giving money away and he declined to assist Giuliani. Apparently Giuliani replied to the effect, pay up or else.

[pritch]

Last night our time in Congress Trump's Secretary of Defence, the one he appointed after he had lost the election, was questioned about Jan 6th. He said that Trump instructed him to have the troops protect the protesters.

We'll probably be hearing about that again, as evidence in court.

[husaberg]

It is reported that Giuliani has asked Trump to access some of the hundreds of millions he rorted from the gullible to "fight his legal battles". As ever Trump does not like giving money away and he declined to assist Giuliani. Apparently Giuliani replied to the effect, pay up or else.

https://imgix.gizmodo.com.au/content/uploads/sites/2/2020/10/22/giuliani.jpeg?ar=16%3A9&auto=format&fit=crop&q=65&w=1280

[pritch]

Scaramucci (?sp) says he warned Giuliani that getting involved with Trump could leave him legally compromised. Giuliani replied that he has "insurance".

The insurance needs to be good.

[R650R]

Last night our time in Congress Trump's Secretary of Defence, the one he appointed after he had lost the election, was questioned about Jan 6th. He said that Trump instructed him to have the troops protect the protesters.

We'll probably be hearing about that again, as evidence in court.

Police routinely keep seperate factions apart at protests to avoid conflict even in nz, perfectly normal. How on earth do you extract something nefarious from that lol

[pritch]

Police routinely keep seperate factions apart at protests to avoid conflict even in nz, perfectly normal. How on earth do you extract something nefarious from that lol

You have trouble with comprehension don't you. There is no mention of police in my post.

Oh, and lawyers, former prosecutors, seem rather more excited by the news than you.

[Robert Taylor]

Well, the joke is on the American people, now being ''led'' by a geriatric non achieving nobody of a career politician with early onset of alzheimers lurking. He makes Gerald Ford look sure footed, for those who have been around long enough to know why I have said that. When he dies in office or is declared unfit for office ( already apparent ) there is a be-skirted communist waiting in the wings.

What a cesspit of a country.

[pritch]

The Trump/Kushner Middle East peace agreement is holding up well. :whistle:

[R650R]

The Trump/Kushner Middle East peace agreement is holding up well. :whistle:

Let’s not forget that Biden’s first order of business was to sign exec orders undoing all trumps good work.

By the time he finishes wombling through an incoherent sentence the middle east will be a pile of ashes

[Laava]

Lol! Trumps good work! 😆😆😆😆😆😆😆

[sugilite]

Holy shit, finally tangible voter fraud has been found!
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300309382/us-man-arrested-for-wifes-murder-after-using-her-name-to-vote-for-donald-trump

[husaberg]

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-596c916d9d3510cb2a40ecb9a2e38a6d

[pritch]

Poor ol' Rudy Giuliani. He has asked Trump for support but apparently no support of any sort will be forthcoming. That includes money, but Rudy should have known that, Trump is known for not paying lawyers. Or anybody else much. That "insurance" Rudy told Sacramucci about will need to be good.

Rudy's lawyers are filing court papers which are basically a wish list. He wants his phones back for one. Good luck with that.

A search of a lawyer in the US is complicated as there will be conversations between the lawyer and clients which are privileged and not available to law enforcement.
What they did with Michael Cohen, Trump's previous personal attorney, was to appoint a retired judge to be a "master". A team from a different office to the prosecuting office went through all the records, when selecting information that seemed relevant to the case they took it to the master who either approved its use or otherwise. The search team were not permitted to communicate directly with the office handling the prosecution.

If the lawyer is involved in criminal activity the privilege ceases to apply.

Giuliani is appearing on any radio or TV show that will have him. He has clearly forgotten that he has a right to remain silent.

[pritch]

Rudy Giuliani's son Andrew has announced he is running for Mayor of New York. He was sacked from the golf team when at college, basically for being a prick, and he subsequently sued the university. It was literally laughed out of court, apparently the judge liked to make golf jokes.

Giuliani Jr's sole aim, if elected, will be to pardon Trump and Giuliani Sr of any NY State crimes they may have been found guilty of. He has zero experience or qualifications, his job in Trump's White House was to organise visits by visiting sports teams. Such visits were few and far between.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/judge-laughs-andrew-giuliani-bid-sue-duke-university-kicking-golf-team-article-1.375425

[pritch]

An interesting development. The NY DA's investigation into the Trump organisatin is now criminal as well as civil.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-state-probe-trump-organization-is-now-criminal-attorney-general-2021-05-19/

[husaberg]

Rudy Giuliani's son Andrew has announced he is running for Mayor of New York. He was sacked from the golf team when at college, basically for being a prick, and he subsequently sued the university. It was literally laughed out of court, apparently the judge liked to make golf jokes.

Giuliani Jr's sole aim, if elected, will be to pardon Trump and Giuliani Sr of any NY State crimes they may have been found guilty of. He has zero experience or qualifications, his job in Trump's White House was to organise visits by visiting sports teams. Such visits were few and far between.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/judge-laughs-andrew-giuliani-bid-sue-duke-university-kicking-golf-team-article-1.375425
His son is a chad off the old block.
I enjoy his trump like made up words.........
https://twitter.com/i/status/1387500953167962112

[TheDemonLord]

An interesting development. The NY DA's investigation into the Trump organisatin is now criminal as well as civil.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/new-york-state-probe-trump-organization-is-now-criminal-attorney-general-2021-05-19/

Nothing says legitimately elected like politicizing the legal system to vindictively go after your opposition....

[pritch]

Nothing says legitimately elected like politicizing the legal system to vindictively go after your opposition....

That's what Trump will claim but it is complete nonsense of course. It is common knowledge that he has fiddled taxes, banks and insurance companies forever. This information was from his own paperwork as supplied to the NY Times by his niece. That's what he gets for shafting her out of her share of the family fortune.

Most peope realise that Trump and his spawn are a crime family, all we need to confirm that is the rest of the paperwork. And Weisselberg's testimony.

[TheDemonLord]

That's what Trump will claim but it is complete nonsense of course.

It's patently obvious. What is being done to Trump can be summarised as 'Political Revenge'.


It is common knowledge that he has fiddled taxes, banks and insurance companies forever. This information was from his own paperwork as supplied to the NY Times by his niece. That's what he gets for shafting her out of her share of the family fortune.

Is it? It's often been claimed but the curious thing is, we've had nearly 6 years of these claims and yet... Nothing...


Most peope realise that Trump and his spawn are a crime family, all we need to confirm that is the rest of the paperwork. And Weisselberg's testimony.

So, Guilty until proven Innocent?

You don't have the paperwork to confirm it, by your own admission.

Neither does the state and yet these blatant political persecutions are A-Okay with you, despite the Evidence being curiously absent.

May I also raise that the Machinery of Politics has been outright hostile to Trump ever since he decided to run and despite multiple 'investigations', Impeachments and other such shameful abuses of the legal system.

Not.
One.
Conviction
Against.
Trump.

[F5 Dave]

I so seem to remember something about Hillary with the last election if you are talking about politicising the legal system. Oh yeah. Make bed, sleep in it. .

[TheDemonLord]

I so seem to remember something about Hillary with the last election if you are talking about politicising the legal system. Oh yeah. Make bed, sleep in it. .

I, too, remember something about Hilary.

If Trump had done half the things that Hilary actually did, then there is no doubt that Trump would already be in Jail.

[pritch]

It's patently obvious. What is being done to Trump can be summarised as 'Political Revenge'.

That's nonsense.




It's often been claimed but the curious thing is, we've had nearly 6 years of these claims and yet... Nothing...

Nothing? He is now facing civil and criminal actions from two different offices in New York. They would not have even announced that if they didn't have evidence.
You are also forgetting that Trump refused to hand over his tax returns and refused to let people appear at hearings even though they had been subpoenaed. He was always playing for time, but time is running out. In more ways than one.

You seem to have forgotten too the OLC opinion that a sitting president cannot be charged. That alone accounts for four years.




You don't have the paperwork to confirm it, by your own admission.
Neither does the state and yet these blatant political persecutions are A-Okay with you, despite the Evidence being curiously absent.


Not.
One.
Conviction
Against.
Trump.

The DA and the AG have the tax returns and the business records, they have had them for some time now following Trump's failed series of appeals.

As for that "Not one conviction" which you cling to so desperately, watch this space. This is just the beginning, there are the ten or so obstruction charges listed in the Mueller report, charges arising from election interference in Georgia, and all his shady shit in Ukraine. Don't forget Trump is still "unindicted co-conspirator number one" in the case that sent Cohen to prison for following Trump's instructions in paying off Stormy Daniels. There is also the small matter of the coup attempt which failed like all of his other enterprises. And that ain't all.

Your level of self delusion is truly impressive.

[F5 Dave]

". . blatant political persecutions"

Again I invoke the Hillary case. Trump was a complete vindictive wanker with no care for anyone else's safety as he cast them as criminals, judge and jury. Get your mob on. And this is years before Capitol.

Hippo Krit.

[husaberg]

The funniest thing about Trump
<marquee bgcolor="#000080" style="color: #FFFFFF; font-family: Book Antiqua" behavior="scroll" >His supporters</marquee>

[TheDemonLord]

The funniest thing about Trump
<marquee bgcolor="#000080" style="color: #FFFFFF; font-family: Book Antiqua" behavior="scroll" >His suporters</marquee>

If I was going to insult my opposition, I'd be really careful to ensure my Spelling was correct...

[TheDemonLord]

". . blatant political persecutions"

Again I invoke the Hillary case. Trump was a complete vindictive wanker with no care for anyone else's safety as he cast them as criminals, judge and jury. Get your mob on. And this is years before Capitol.

Hippo Krit.

Personally, if I was going to invoke an example - Hilary would be the last one I'd resort to, namely due to the myriad of objectively dodgy things that she did such as:

Deleting Subpoena'd data, Not having any recoverable backups - I can never remember the term for it - but there's a legal principle that if someone is actively destroying evidence, you're allowed to presume that which was destroyed was incriminating.

Deliberately bypassing Government security by running a Private email server and conducting official business via it.

However - the bit that is missing in the comparison is a sustained multi-year attack on Hilary. A quick search shows plenty of results for Trump talking about Hilary in 2016, but not a whole lot after

[TheDemonLord]

That's nonsense.

It's an Objective truth.


Nothing? He is now facing civil and criminal actions from two different offices in New York. They would not have even announced that if they didn't have evidence.
You are also forgetting that Trump refused to hand over his tax returns and refused to let people appear at hearings even though they had been subpoenaed. He was always playing for time, but time is running out. In more ways than one.

You seem to have forgotten too the OLC opinion that a sitting president cannot be charged. That alone accounts for four years.

They announced 2 Impeachments with no evidence.... So their Track record isn't very promising.

And of course it's filed in New York, again No political machinations there...

As for the 'playing for time' - I think you mean that he's doing exactly what any reasonable person would do. And coming back to your 'that accounts for four years' - you'll note you said 'Charged' but that doesn't preclude being 'investigated' which we both know that there were numerous politically motivated actors in various positions who spent the entirety of those 4 years investigating - and yet...


The DA and the AG have the tax returns and the business records, they have had them for some time now following Trump's failed series of appeals.

So, they've had them for some time now, and this is the best they can come up with? Sounds very much like grasping at straws.


As for that "Not one conviction" which you cling to so desperately, watch this space. This is just the beginning,

Indeed, because Political Persecution never ends, the Evidence and justification just gets more and more abstract until it can be shoe-horned into whatever narrative is being spun.

I'm very much reminded of Tommy Robinson and his banning from Facebook for 'calling for the beheading of Muslims' - only for a Facebook spokesperson to subsequently confirm what everyone knew (because if Tommy had said anything like that on any public platform, it would have been on every front page of every flavour of News outlet in a millisecon) that they basically made up the accusation.


there are the ten or so obstruction charges listed in the Mueller report, charges arising from election interference in Georgia, and all his shady shit in Ukraine. Don't forget Trump is still "unindicted co-conspirator number one" in the case that sent Cohen to prison for following Trump's instructions in paying off Stormy Daniels. There is also the small matter of the coup attempt which failed like all of his other enterprises. And that ain't all.

Your level of self delusion is truly impressive.

If I apply the same standard of innocence that you applied to the election - He's as clean as a whistle...

[pritch]

It's an Objective truth.

Objective truth for one may be nonsense to normal people.



And of course it's filed in New York, again No political machinations there...

Political machinations? NY is where the Trump Organisation is situated. Where did you think the case should be handled? Mexico?


[QUOTE=TheDemonLord;1131186430]
So, they've had them for some time now, and this is the best they can come up with? Sounds very much like grasping at straws.

There are both civil and criminal charges pending. I cant remember the exact phrase but the offending was described with two words such as prolific and persistent.
That doesn't sound ike grasping at straws.

Oh, and regarding your reply to Dave re Hillary's emails. James Comey wrote in his book that there were no missing emails. The FBI got them all. The 'missing' emails Trump was raving about were the personal ones the FBI had no further interest in.

[F5 Dave]

I was almost tempted to click view, but I think. Nah. It will be the same rubbish. Dont quote it please.

[pritch]

I was almost tempted to click view, but I think. Nah. It will be the same rubbish. Dont quote it please.

Apologies. I too should have had the will power to do that.

[pritch]

Sadly the ones that really need to read this just won't get it.

[TheDemonLord]

Objective truth for one may be nonsense to normal people.

And who gets to define Normal?


Political machinations? NY is where the Trump Organisation is situated. Where did you think the case should be handled? Mexico?

Let me put it another way - if one is going to sue for Libel, One files it in London.
If one is going to be filing something on behalf of the Government, one tends to file in Columbia.

Filing it in a heavily Democrat area, with a Governor who has been very vocal against Trump, whose brother has used (some might say abused) his media platform - again, this has all the hallmarks of being politically motivated.


There are both civil and criminal charges pending. I cant remember the exact phrase but the offending was described with two words such as prolific and persistent.
That doesn't sound ike grasping at straws.

Well, we'll see. I suspect it will end in one of 2 ways:

Either the same way the Impeachment went (clearly fabricated 'evidence' on objectively false claims)
Or the the same way as the Chauvin trial (a Jury deciding that it's better to appease the mob in case their head ends up on the block)


Oh, and regarding your reply to Dave re Hillary's emails. James Comey wrote in his book that there were no missing emails. The FBI got them all. The 'missing' emails Trump was raving about were the personal ones the FBI had no further interest in.

Would that be the same James Comey who admitted that there was evidence of Mishandling classified information... But didn't file charges...

Yeah... I think it's safe to say that if their last name wasn't 'Clinton', they wouldn't have been shown such deference, and as such - any subsequent statements are to be treated as tainted.

As for whether or not the emails were indeed of a personal nature - we only have the word of people who have shown an objective bias, so you'll excuse me if I don't take it at face value.

[F5 Dave]

Let's all love Jesus together.

You hold him down and. . :buggerd: .

[TheDemonLord]

Sadly the ones that really need to read this just won't get it.

Let's go through them one by one

Is he a Billionaire? https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=trump+net+worth

Would it bother me if his net worth was *only* $999,999,999? Not one bit.

Is he a Genius? The fact that he's been successful in so many different arenas (Business, Politics and Show Business) is proof enough. As for College Grades - I've worked with some people who had certifications galore and were as thick as Pig's shit and I've worked with some with little to no formal education that could run rings around me.

And let's be clear about what I mean by 'successful' - 99.999999% of people don't get to have their name on the side of Prominent Buildings. 99.999999% of people don't get their own syndicated TV Series. 99.999999% of people don't get to be the President of the United States.

Of those that do have one of those, I can't think of anyone else who has managed all 3 (Perhaps Reagan?).

Is he a great Business Man? He still has his Business Empire, there's still the Trump brand - sure, he's had ups and downs - but that's part of the cycle for the type of speculating he does. According to Google (that famed Trump supporting company) he's still worth 2.4 Billion - so, he must be doing a few things right.

Is he an Irresistible Ladies Man? There's a misconception about why someone who can have anyone would pay a professional, I'm reminded of Justin Bieber visiting Brothels - I think it's probably best expressed as 'Sometimes a Hooker is cheaper than a Groupie'.

Is he a Philanthropist? Honestly? I couldn't care less one way or another.

Is he a Patriot? All you have to do to answer this question is ask yourselves who do the Flag-waving 'America is the Best' align themselves with? For bonus points, you could ask the inverse of which Party and Politicians continually align themselves with protest movements and organizations whose stated goal is to 'Tear down the Western capitalist imperialist Patriarchy' - Those 2 questions will give you the answer - Draft or no Draft.

Is he a Christian? I'm an Atheist so what do I care? It's a long running observation that any political candidate in the US has to declare themselves an adherent of some form of Christianity. That said, I know some Christians who don't go to Church because they believe their faith is between themselves and their God.

Is he Innocent? 2 and 0 and counting. Not testifying when there is no legal compulsion to do so and nothing to be gained from doing so isn't proof of guilt - it's proof of being smart.

[pritch]

Let me put it another way - if one is going to sue for Libel, One files it in London.
If one is going to be filing something on behalf of the Government, one tends to file in Columbia.

Filing it in a heavily Democrat area, with a Governor who has been very vocal against Trump, whose brother has used (some might say abused) his media platform - again, this has all the hallmarks of being politically motivated.


I will explain this because what you have written above typifies your lack of understanding.

The cases are filed in New York because the headquarters of the Trump Organisation are in New York and all five of the main persons of interest lived in New York: DJT himself, Alan Weisselberg CFO of the Trump Organisation, Dumb and Dumber, and Ivanka. It's also likely most offences, if any, were committed there.

These particular investigations are not conducted by the federal government. One investigation is being conducted by the Attorney General for New York. The other investigation is being conducted by the Manhattan District Attorney. It should be obvious that any court action will most likely take place in New York.

None of this has anything to do with the District of Columbia although it is entirely possible that other federal investigations and charges may follow and any resultant court action would likely be held in DC or Virginia.

Having had to explain these basics, all of which are readily available, means you are back on ignore.

[pritch]

"From the desk of Donald J Trump

Many people have asked about the beautiful Boeing 757 that became so iconic during the Trump rallies. It was effectively kept in storage in Upstate New York in that I was not allowed to use it during my presidency. It is now being fully restored and updated and will be put back into service sometime prior to the end of the year. It will soon be brought to a Louisiana service facility for the completion of work, inspection and updating of Rolls-Royce engines, and a brand new paint job. When completed, it will be better than ever, and again used at upcoming rallies!"


That's going to take a lot of cash. The plane has been sitting for over four years and currently has one engine missing. He says he's going to splash out for a new paint job. Wanna bet it'll look a lot like Air Force One? If it happens at all.

[sugilite]

There is really no point interacting with Mr Demon Lord on anything Trump, he has nothing but a never ending set of free passes for the guy.
Wants objective justice huh?
Trump took out a full page advert in the New York times calling for the death penalty for the so called central park 5.
They have since been exonerated.
Has Trump apologized to them and their families or admitted he was wrong? If course the thin skinned prick has not. He is incapable of admitting he was wrong. For some reason DL deeply admires this orange stained piece of shit.
https://zfacts.com/trump-death-penalty-ad

[husaberg]

TLDR was the guy who claimed to know more about US law than a Supreme court judge, Then more about US government's internal security than the FBI, plus more about the US laws than the people that drafted them. Then claimed a near-unanimous law change was undemocratic because he didn't like it.....
Dunning and Kruger would be so proud of him........

[FJRider]

... Many people have asked about the beautiful Boeing 757 that became so iconic during the Trump rallies.

It doesn't look like much has (or will) happen with it.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/19/politics/trump-757-repairs-gold-plated-glory-days/index.html

Priorities I guess ... :shutup:

[husaberg]

Trumps declared Harley to be losers and started his own motorycle company.
They will of course be proudly made in the U̶S̶A̶ China.......

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/9882756285_9ca88029d9_o.jpg

[FJRider]

Let's go through them one by one

You can count ... Who knew ... (but not past one) ...
:shifty:


Is he a Billionaire?

Has he got a Billion $$$ in the bank .. ?? "Net Worth" is subjective.


Would it bother me if his net worth was *only* $999,999,999? Not one bit.

It wouldn't bother you if he was broke. Your point is ... ???


Is he a Genius? The fact that he's been successful in so many different arenas (Business, Politics and Show Business) is proof enough.

BULLSHIT .. !!! The financial decisions he makes rely on PAID advisors. Decisions NOT entirely based on HIS opinion. But the final decision is his alone.

GOOD advice goes a long way to success.


As for College Grades - I've worked with some people who had certifications galore and were as thick as Pig's shit and I've worked with some with little to no formal education that could run rings around me.

You've worked ... Who knew .. :shifty:

Qualifications are gained by various means. Some not approved. OR legal.


And let's be clear about what I mean by 'successful' - 99.999999% of people don't get to have their name on the side of Prominent Buildings. 99.999999% of people don't get their own syndicated TV Series. 99.999999% of people don't get to be the President of the United States.

Those with an ability to have their names on prominent buildings does not make the point. Those with that ability to do so it's personal CHOICE. Not a legal or enforced requirement.

Have you ever considered ... 99.999999% of people in the US do NOT want to be (or attempt to be) President ... <_<


Of those that do have one of those, I can't think of anyone else who has managed all 3 (Perhaps Reagan?).

That YOU are aware of ... :shifty:

Unless you have made an active search ... and come up empty ... your lack of knowledge does not surprise me. Most of your statements on here ... are based on your opinion .. not facts ... :shifty:


Is he a great Business Man? He still has his Business Empire, there's still the Trump brand - sure, he's had ups and downs - but that's part of the cycle for the type of speculating he does. According to Google (that famed Trump supporting company) he's still worth 2.4 Billion - so, he must be doing a few things right.

As I've already stated above ... with the right advice ... the right decisions can be made. Such is Business. He could just be good at following advice.

And ... I'd be betting that not ALL of his financial advice was good.


There's a misconception about why someone who can have anyone would pay a professional, I'm reminded of Justin Bieber visiting Brothels - I think it's probably best expressed as 'Sometimes a Hooker is cheaper than a Groupie'.

You're probably more qualified and experienced on this subject to comment than I ... so I wont ... :shifty:


Is he a Philanthropist? Honestly? I couldn't care less one way or another.

BULLSHIT .. !!! It would be in your own best interest to be seen as being that way ... :shifty:

Given the opportunity ... you'd like it ... :laugh:


Is he a Patriot?

You don't bite the hand that feeds you ... or go against the system that puts (lot's of) money in YOUR pocket ... :shifty:


Is he a Christian? I'm an Atheist so what do I care? It's a long running observation that any political candidate in the US has to declare themselves an adherent of some form of Christianity. That said, I know some Christians who don't go to Church because they believe their faith is between themselves and their God.

Some orders a President might have to make ... like the deaths of a few 100,000 people (or more) ... might go against the requirement to make a Presidential decision in a Christian context.

Could a true Christian live with that .. ??


Is he Innocent? 2 and 0 and counting. Not testifying when there is no legal compulsion to do so and nothing to be gained from doing so isn't proof of guilt - it's proof of being smart.

Are YOU ... or I for that matter ... innocent ... ?? Guilt is subjective ... We both make decisions in our lives that affect people adversely. Specific instances we may not be even aware of. If you were aware of such ... would your decisions differ .. ?? :shifty:

[pritch]

Word on social media is that Trump is to apply for a casino licence for his troubled Doral resort. That's the resort in which he proposed to host the G7 summit meeting. Except it would have been the G8 because he wanted to invite Russia against the objections of the other 6. The place was run down and he probably thought he could get it completely refurbished at the tax payers' expense prior to the meeting. Eventually it was made clear that this was all too corrupt even for him.

One might wonder who the fuck would give a casino licence to a guy who has previously presided over multiple casino bankruptcies? Ron Desantis, Governor of Florida, Trump sycophant, and likely 2024 presidential candidate would.

We'll see.

[husaberg]

Word on social media is that Trump is to apply for a casino licence for his troubled Doral resort. That's the resort in which he proposed to host the G7 summit meeting. Except it would have been the G8 because he wanted to invite Russia against the objections of the other 6. The place was run down and he probably thought he could get it completely refurbished at the tax payers' expense prior to the meeting. Eventually it was made clear that this was all too corrupt even for him.

One might wonder who the fuck would give a casino licence to a guy who has previously presided over multiple casino bankruptcies? Ron Desantis, Governor of Florida, Trump sycophant, and likely 2024 presidential candidate would.

We'll see.
Before he gets a Licence he would need to provide tax and financial accounts.
but to make it happen in florida It looks like they even changed the state laws so he and another of the big republican contributors could get around the state laws on Casinos with the Indian Tribes.
https://www.americangaming.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/AGAGamingRegulatoryFactSheet_Florida-1.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/05/19/trump-casino-florida-desantis/
https://www.tampabay.com/news/florida-politics/2021/05/19/florida-legalizes-sports-betting-but-hurdles-remain/

It would be interesting to see if the local tribes did a campaign similar to what he funded to stop Indian casinos
https://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-anti-indian-campaign-20160630-snap-story.html
All done in an apparent n an attempt to save his own failing Casinos


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFi0EHh1f0I&t=52s

I pay taxs 1.30.......LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLO

What's funny is he might have won Arizona if he wasn't so anti Indian.
they had a 25% increase in registered voters

[F5 Dave]

He's hardly going to support them as they are immigrants.

Take a man's job

[pritch]

Only the best people...

Senior Trump advisor Jason Miller allegedly got a stripper pregnant and subsequently slipped her an abortion pill without her knowledge. He has now sued a publisher who reported the story - and lost. I hope they get their money, because reportedly the only other thing he's famous for is not paying child support

https://www.rawstory.com/jason-miller-abortion/

[TheDemonLord]

There is really no point interacting with Mr Demon Lord on anything Trump, he has nothing but a never ending set of free passes for the guy.
Wants objective justice huh?
Trump took out a full page advert in the New York times calling for the death penalty for the so called central park 5.
They have since been exonerated.
Has Trump apologized to them and their families or admitted he was wrong? If course the thin skinned prick has not. He is incapable of admitting he was wrong. For some reason DL deeply admires this orange stained piece of shit.
https://zfacts.com/trump-death-penalty-ad

Nineteen Eighty Nine.

I don't think I need much more rebuttal than that.

[TheDemonLord]

I will explain this because what you have written above typifies your lack of understanding.

You've managed to spectacularly miss the point... And proved the point I was making.


These particular investigations are not conducted by the federal government. One investigation is being conducted by the Attorney General for New York. The other investigation is being conducted by the Manhattan District Attorney. It should be obvious that any court action will most likely take place in New York.

And at whose behest would the AG of NY and the Manhattan DA be doing this?

Let's just throw a theory out - that maybe one of Trump's most Vocal critics during the Covid-19 issues in the US - might just happen to be the Governor of NY?

There's some other stuff between the interactions of Trump and Cuomo that I could add in here - but this has all the hallmarks of a Witch-hunt.


None of this has anything to do with the District of Columbia although it is entirely possible that other federal investigations and charges may follow and any resultant court action would likely be held in DC or Virginia.

You missed the point, again. It was to show how one can file in a location that is likely to be the most sympathetic to your desired outcome.


Having had to explain these basics, all of which are readily available, means you are back on ignore.

I mean, you do you, but putting someone on Ignore because you failed to understand the point that was being made - it's bad form.

[TheDemonLord]

Has he got a Billion $$$ in the bank .. ?? "Net Worth" is subjective.
It wouldn't bother you if he was broke. Your point is ... ???

It was never my point in the first place, it was Pritch's.


BULLSHIT .. !!! The financial decisions he makes rely on PAID advisors. Decisions NOT entirely based on HIS opinion. But the final decision is his alone.

GOOD advice goes a long way to success.

Sure - but here's the thing - literally every Political analyst on both sides of the Aisle regularly said that Trump should Tweet less. His Supporters on the other hand, love that he had a direct line of communication with them.

I'm certain he has Advisors on all sorts - but if you look at some of the positions he's taken, where 'conventional' wisdom would dictate otherwise, he's done allright.



Those with an ability to have their names on prominent buildings does not make the point. Those with that ability to do so it's personal CHOICE. Not a legal or enforced requirement.

Have you ever considered ... 99.999999% of people in the US do NOT want to be (or attempt to be) President ... <_<

If you offered the majority of people the chance to be the President, without going through all the ancillary stuff - basically, you get to be the boss - I think most would take the offer.

I agree that a large proportion would probably shortly relinquish the role once they found out how demanding it is - but that's not what we are talking about here.



That YOU are aware of ... :shifty:

Unless you have made an active search ... and come up empty ... your lack of knowledge does not surprise me. Most of your statements on here ... are based on your opinion .. not facts ... :shifty:

The point was that in the rare company of Presidents and Ex-Presidents, Trump is even rarer still.



As I've already stated above ... with the right advice ... the right decisions can be made. Such is Business. He could just be good at following advice.

And ... I'd be betting that not ALL of his financial advice was good.

Oh definitely he's had some bad calls - that's life, but to pin all of his success on the an implied legion of assistants raises 2 questions:

1: If the Advisors he has are so good, why aren't they just doing it themselves and
2: Even with the best advice, sometimes a good leader has to make the tough calls.



You're probably more qualified and experienced on this subject to comment than I ... so I wont ... :shifty:

Au Contraire, you've said you've been deployed overseas, I'm willing to bet you have the greater experience.


BULLSHIT .. !!! It would be in your own best interest to be seen as being that way ... :shifty:

Given the opportunity ... you'd like it ... :laugh:

Not really. My reasons for liking Trump have nothing to do with Charity or Philanthropy. Putting aside my general distrust of people splashing around cash in an effort to convince me of how good and noble they are, It's in my best interest to articular my position honestly.


You don't bite the hand that feeds you ... or go against the system that puts (lot's of) money in YOUR pocket ... :shifty:

That depends, I can think of many institutions that are nibbling on the hand that feeds - and almost all of them do so because of a Political agenda.


Some orders a President might have to make ... like the deaths of a few 100,000 people (or more) ... might go against the requirement to make a Presidential decision in a Christian context.

There have been many war-time leaders who have a very strong personal faith. There have also been people who derive from the Bible a strict sense of Pacifism - I'm reminded of the US Medic who got a MoH for such actions and never once picked up a Weapon.

If you boil it down to the interpersonal level - If one was a christian and came across Someone sexually assaulting another - is it right to raise your fists? You can look to the story of Jesus and the Money Lenders to see that there is a precedent in the Bible for Righteous anger and violence - done on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.


Could a true Christian live with that .. ??

I can answer that in two ways - the first is the cop-out of saying 'just ask for forgiveness'

The second is to reference the above - If the action is being taken on behalf of someone else, then yes, they could - so long as there were no Ulterior motives (War for Oil springs to mind)


Are YOU ... or I for that matter ... innocent ... ?? Guilt is subjective ... We both make decisions in our lives that affect people adversely. Specific instances we may not be even aware of. If you were aware of such ... would your decisions differ .. ?? :shifty:

In a legal sense - unless we've been convicted - absolutely.
In a philosophical sense - Sure, I've done things in my past that I regret and from them I've learned lessons.

That's all one can hope for really.

[sugilite]

Nineteen Eighty Nine.

I don't think I need much more rebuttal than that.

Oh, had the statute of limitations on being a decent human expired had it? :rolleyes:

Not even close to a rebuttal there sport.

[R650R]

Only the best people...

Senior Trump advisor Jason Miller allegedly got a stripper pregnant and subsequently slipped her an abortion pill without her knowledge. He has now sued a publisher who reported the story - and lost. I hope they get their money, because reportedly the only other thing he's famous for is not paying child support

https://www.rawstory.com/jason-miller-abortion/

How is they a problem, I thought your beloved Democrats were pro abortion....

I do love how in true lefty identity politics style you’ve used the woman’s occupation to slur Jason but demeaning her self worth at the same time by effectively judging her occupation this angering the lefty feminist element lol

Damn trump advisors such sexy arse big ball sack mofos they damn getting laid all over the show impregnating wimmin folk everywhere lol

[husaberg]

How is they a problem, I thought your beloved Democrats were pro abortion....

If you cant tell the difference between being pro choice and pro-abortion you have a serious lack of cognitive function.
This is backed up by the fact you missed the whole meaning of a woman's right to choose.

[pritch]

How is they a problem, I thought your beloved Democrats were pro abortion....

I do love how in true lefty identity politics style you’ve used the woman’s occupation to slur Jason but demeaning her self worth at the same time by effectively judging her occupation this angering the lefty feminist element lol

Damn trump advisors such sexy arse big ball sack mofos they damn getting laid all over the show impregnating wimmin folk everywhere lol

Only in your befuddled mind. I didn't use anything to do anything, I just posted the story. Although I did mention that he is reputedly a dead beat dad.
Jason appears to be what the Yanks call an asshole.

[F5 Dave]

And thinking Trump is a dickwad doesn't make someone a leftist. Furthermore claiming the same person loves Democrats is equally flawed.

You do realise that we dont live in the USA right? We cant vote in their elections.

We just think Trump is a complete tosser.

[TheDemonLord]

Oh, had the statute of limitations on being a decent human expired had it? :rolleyes:

Not even close to a rebuttal there sport.

Have you apologized for everything you did over 30 years ago? Has anyone?

I mean, it's not even when he was on his path to campaigning for a nomination bid.

The worst you could say is to point at his 1988 Oprah interview.... but again - over 30 years ago.

[sugilite]

Have you apologized for everything you did over 30 years ago? Has anyone?

I mean, it's not even when he was on his path to campaigning for a nomination bid.

The worst you could say is to point at his 1988 Oprah interview.... but again - over 30 years ago.

No, I tend to get apologies out the way immediately it becomes apparent they need to be made - like the infamous swallow a dead rat apology I made to the now rightly banned bonez.
Trump should have apologized in 2002 when the 5 were exonerated. He has been given other opportunities as recently as this year to apologize but has declined to take them. He is incapable of admitting he is wrong due to his weak cowardly nature.

So lets go to something a little more recent then, since you clearly give mulligans for anything remotely dated.
On Feb the 6th Trump told his adoring supporters to march on the congress buildings and he would be right there beside them. But he wasn't was he? In fact he chose to instead go and watch the carnage on the telly with family and friends.
Blatantly lying to constituents, cowardice of not following through on ones words - Good leadership qualities in your opinion?

I'm just going to add in a few classic DL snippets from your prior replies to others....


Sure - but here's the thing - literally every Political analyst on both sides of the Aisle regularly said that Trump should Tweet less. His Supporters on the other hand, love that he had a direct line of communication with them.

I'm certain he has Advisors on all sorts - but if you look at some of the positions he's taken, where 'conventional' wisdom would dictate otherwise, he's done allright.

Except his blog has bombed. He promised a best-est social media platform ever, and in usual Trump fashion produced a small wet fart. He has gone from having a mega maga bullhorn to a trumpet mute stuffed in his gob - loving Trumps new "social media" fail bigly here :lol:



Not really. My reasons for liking Trump have nothing to do with Charity or Philanthropy. Putting aside my general distrust of people splashing around cash in an effort to convince me of how good and noble they are, It's in my best interest to articular my position honestly.

As you have mentioned before, you like him for triggering the evil libs. Apparently for you it "Trumps" all common decency, honesty and being a good and worthy leader. Trigger the libs, and Demonlord got your back! It is amusing watching you twist honest logic to fit one of the most dishonest men alive today. I know you sincerely think your logic works in your mind - meanwhile in reality the "creative" spin you put on all things Trump is both comedic and just a little sad at the same time.

[FJRider]

It was never my point in the first place, it was Pritch's.

It seemed to me ... you were measuring his success by the fact he was a billionaire. Hence my comment.


Sure - but here's the thing - literally every Political analyst on both sides of the Aisle regularly said that Trump should Tweet less. His Supporters on the other hand, love that he had a direct line of communication with them.

I'm certain he has Advisors on all sorts - but if you look at some of the positions he's taken, where 'conventional' wisdom would dis decisions were not entirely ictate otherwise, he's done allright.

"Tweets" seem to be a spur of the moment thing. Just another "thing" like most facebook posts. Some of which may not be appropriate or correct. Just an opinion at the time ... which might change if it's later seen as/felt as ... the wrong thing to "say" ...

I did say that some of his decisions were not entirely based on his opinion. And I doubt all his decisions were successful.


If you offered the majority of people the chance to be the President, without going through all the ancillary stuff - basically, you get to be the boss - I think most would take the offer.

The "Ancillary stuff" catches most of the triers. Not really a bad thing ... eh .. !!!


I agree that a large proportion would probably shortly relinquish the role once they found out how demanding it is - but that's not what we are talking about here.

For a chance to play with the "Football" ... many still try.


The point was that in the rare company of Presidents and Ex-Presidents, Trump is even rarer still.

Different anyway. Different than the others doesn't make him rare.


Oh definitely he's had some bad calls - that's life, but to pin all of his success on the an implied legion of assistants raises 2 questions:

1: If the Advisors he has are so good, why aren't they just doing it themselves and
2: Even with the best advice, sometimes a good leader has to make the tough calls.

1. They get paid well to spend other peoples money. But could never have the Billions of their own money to offset the risks.

2. True. what was the question in (2.) ?? (You did say ... Two questions ??)


Au Contraire, you've said you've been deployed overseas, I'm willing to bet you have the greater experience.

Limited experience. We weren't paid that well. Getting involved with any woman costs. Basically ... you pay to get the same thing. Usually less with a part-timer ...


Not really. My reasons for liking Trump have nothing to do with Charity or Philanthropy. Putting aside my general distrust of people splashing around cash in an effort to convince me of how good and noble they are, It's in my best interest to articular my position honestly.

I've lost you ... Articular is relating to a joint or the joints. Do you mean articulate .. ?? If you did ... obvious fail.


That depends, I can think of many institutions that are nibbling on the hand that feeds - and almost all of them do so because of a Political agenda.

If you can get away with it ... all good. Not all such actions can carry on forever. Or even for long. Bugger eh ...



There have been many war-time leaders who have a very strong personal faith. There have also been people who derive from the Bible a strict sense of Pacifism - I'm reminded of the US Medic who got a MoH for such actions and never once picked up a Weapon.

Personal ethic's vary ... with each and every individual. Depending on results needed or wanted. And somebody else doing the dirty bits.


If you boil it down to the interpersonal level - If one was a christian and came across Someone sexually assaulting another - is it right to raise your fists? You can look to the story of Jesus and the Money Lenders to see that there is a precedent in the Bible for Righteous anger and violence - done on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves.

As above.


I can answer that in two ways - the first is the cop-out of saying 'just ask for forgiveness'

The second is to reference the above - If the action is being taken on behalf of someone else, then yes, they could - so long as there were no Ulterior motives (War for Oil springs to mind)

As above.


In a legal sense - unless we've been convicted - absolutely.
In a philosophical sense - Sure, I've done things in my past that I regret and from them I've learned lessons.

That's all one can hope for really.

I never meant a legal sense. The old ... "I never thought that would happen" type retort by the leader.

Like ... not realizing the effects of bringing a few hundred thousand of your countrymen home from a war in body-bags .... Or reducing a normal Benefit payment by $20. Will the public reaction to Government be the same in both cases ... ?? Which would the general population hate more .. ??

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzDhm808oU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OeeHz0uNdM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfMUn1U3aSk

[TheDemonLord]

No, I tend to get apologies out the way immediately it becomes apparent they need to be made - like the infamous swallow a dead rat apology I made to the now rightly banned bonez.
Trump should have apologized in 2002 when the 5 were exonerated. He has been given other opportunities as recently as this year to apologize but has declined to take them. He is incapable of admitting he is wrong due to his weak cowardly nature.

Perhaps if the people demanding the apology would accept it, then maybe things might be different.

At this point, with certain groups, even if there are errors on your part, I'd also take the position of refuse to Apologise to a group that grants no forgiveness.


So lets go to something a little more recent then, since you clearly give mulligans for anything remotely dated.
On Feb the 6th Trump told his adoring supporters to march on the congress buildings and he would be right there beside them. But he wasn't was he? In fact he chose to instead go and watch the carnage on the telly with family and friends.
Blatantly lying to constituents, cowardice of not following through on ones words - Good leadership qualities in your opinion?

I'm fairly certain you've raised this one previously, my answer is much the same.


Except his blog has bombed. He promised a best-est social media platform ever, and in usual Trump fashion produced a small wet fart. He has gone from having a mega maga bullhorn to a trumpet mute stuffed in his gob - loving Trumps new "social media" fail bigly here :lol:

I'm giving this one time - I've certainly seen people making references to things that he's posted on his Desk.


As you have mentioned before, you like him for triggering the evil libs. Apparently for you it "Trumps" all common decency, honesty and being a good and worthy leader. Trigger the libs, and Demonlord got your back! It is amusing watching you twist honest logic to fit one of the most dishonest men alive today. I know you sincerely think your logic works in your mind - meanwhile in reality the "creative" spin you put on all things Trump is both comedic and just a little sad at the same time.

Triggering the evil Libs is more like an added bonus.

The things I really like about him is his refusal to countenance anything that has it's origins in Marxist ideology (Critical Race Theory, Antifa, BLM etc.) and unlike other Western politicians was exceptionally forthright in his refusal.

Then you've got his Economic policy (best economy since the post-war boom)
His Migration Policy (Even if you don't agree with the rhetorhic - seeing what has happened with Biden shows that Trump was right)
His embodiment of American Principles - such as State's rights when it comes to the Federal Government, Upholding the individual's right to choose for themselves.
His Foreign Policy (which although even I would describe as 'brinkmanship' - such as the North Korea tweets about the size of his Red Button - it was far more effective and a lot less bloody than every other US President in my lifetime)

And yeah, I like that he's not a Politician. I think I've raised it previously but the description of 'Trumps bombastic Lies were more honest that Hillary's calculated Lies' really does ring true.

[husaberg]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-versus-truth-most-outrageous-falsehoods-his-presidency-n1252580


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wAMHo-MkjE

[pritch]

Apparently the prosecutors are pressuring Weisselberg, Trump's CFO, to give evidence against Trump. Cohen thinks Trump will flip on Weisselberg. He thinks Trump will flip on everybody including his kids.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8vpR0tnqho

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIJky-FmZpw

[sugilite]

Perhaps if the people demanding the apology would accept it, then maybe things might be different.

At this point, with certain groups, even if there are errors on your part, I'd also take the position of refuse to Apologise to a group that grants no forgiveness.


Ohh, so you think because Trump did not think his apology would be well received he did not bother? What a cop out. The point of an apology is because you fucked up and should be made based on your actions, not how one thinks it will be received.


I'm fairly certain you've raised this one previously, my answer is much the same.

Why yes I have asked several times for your take on Trump telling his supporters he would be marching right there along side them, and each time you have not given any sort of reply. That is why I enjoy asking it. You know as a leader, what he said and did not follow through on is indefensible. I think this question is your Trump kryptonite :laugh:



I'm giving this one time - I've certainly seen people making references to things that he's posted on his Desk.
Yes, compared to his twitter exposure, from behind trumps little desk is an abject failure in comparison.




Triggering the evil Libs is more like an added bonus.
Hardly, it is your main event!


The things I really like about him is his refusal to countenance anything that has it's origins in Marxist ideology (Critical Race Theory, Antifa, BLM etc.) and unlike other Western politicians was exceptionally forthright in his refusal.
What about the reds under your bed?


Then you've got his Economic policy (best economy since the post-war boom)
A continuation of the Obama days actually - until he tried to downplay the virus.


His Migration Policy (Even if you don't agree with the rhetorhic - seeing what has happened with Biden shows that Trump was right)
Yes, you are correct, Trumps immigration policies did work better at the border than Bidens mess. Wow, look my keyboard has not exploded admitting Trump got something right!


His embodiment of American Principles - such as State's rights when it comes to the Federal Government, Upholding the individual's right to choose for themselves.
Only when it suited him, otherwise he was keen on states doing exactly as he told them, remember his sanctuary state threats? He did not seem so keen on those states following their own path then eh?


His Foreign Policy (which although even I would describe as 'brinkmanship' - such as the North Korea tweets about the size of his Red Button - it was far more effective and a lot less bloody than every other US President in my lifetime)
Except he gave North Korea legitimacy while gaining nothing in return. What a win - for Kim!
And his larger red button tweet was trumped in the extreme by kims huge envelope gag highlighting Trumps small hands - which Trump and his team totally fell for. :laugh:



And yeah, I like that he's not a Politician.
He lies through his teeth and gets away (for now) with corruption in the extreme. He was always a politician in waiting.


I think I've raised it previously but the description of 'Trumps bombastic Lies were more honest that Hillary's calculated Lies' really does ring true.

Lies that are honest, you really are Trumps man :lol:

[TheDemonLord]

Ohh, so you think because Trump did not think his apology would be well received he did not bother? What a cop out. The point of an apology is because you fucked up and should be made based on your actions, not how one thinks it will be received.

For the relevant crowd an apology is an admission of Guilt that by implication gives them Power over you.

As such, when it comes to dealing with the types of interest groups we are talking about: Never Apologize.


Why yes I have asked several times for your take on Trump telling his supporters he would be marching right there along side them, and each time you have not given any sort of reply. That is why I enjoy asking it. You know as a leader, what he said and did not follow through on is indefensible. I think this question is your Trump kryptonite :laugh:

And the last time you asked, you got a full answer.


Yes, compared to his twitter exposure, from behind trumps little desk is an abject failure in comparison.

That's an apples and oranges comparison however we don't have hard data - I see the Washington post are saying that they estimate it's getting fewer visitors than various sites - but the key word there is Estimate.

And when you look at how they are estimating it, it's based on Social Media shares - which raises another question - the censorship of Trump and all things Trumpian on the big Social Media platforms may be tainting the results.

However the key part at the moment is that we don't know the direction they are going to be heading, because ultimately - without user generated content, it's not going to be seeing much growth.


Hardly, it is your main event!

As I said, it's an added Bonus. I'll grant you (if I'm being charitable) that there's a correlation between the Policies that I approve of, and the triggering of the Communists - but the key part is the policy.

The Triggering is a bonus.



What about the reds under your bed?

Let's play (https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/v/c/2/p/i/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1240x700 .1vcgcb.png/1559203771546.jpg?format=pjpg&optimize=medium)

Spot the (https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/antifa.jpeg?w=800&quality=85)

Socialist Fist (https://cached.imagescaler.hbpl.co.uk/resize/scaleWidth/1248/cached.offlinehbpl.hbpl.co.uk/news/OMC/blmresized2.jpg)

I mean - I could actually go to the Academic sources of Critical Race Theory, Intersectional theory etc. - but I'll spare you... I will however link to Britannica (A reasonably unbiased source):
https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory


Its immediate precursor was the critical legal studies (CLS) movement, which dedicated itself to examining how the law and legal institutions serve the interests of the wealthy and powerful at the expense of the poor and marginalized. (CLS, an offshoot of Marxist-oriented critical theory

And of course, a regular reminder of the people saying things like:

"I'm a Literal Communist"
"We are trained Marxists"
"We want to tear down the Western Capitalist imperialist Patriarchal structures and the Nuclear Family"

Or any N number of Marxist utterings (like demands for Expropriation)

Bonus fun fact - one of the UK BLM Activist Leaders (who has said things that even I won't repeat - beginning with N and beginning with C and being extremely racist) recently was Shot in the head (although at time of writing, she's in critical condition)...

By an inner-city Black Gang.

This is the same person who called for people she didn't like to be Hanged, fully supported defunding the police etc. All I can say is - Karma is being very efficient


A continuation of the Obama days actually - until he tried to downplay the virus.

Except the rate of improvement doubled under Trump, And Obama started from a recession - so factually not correct.


Yes, you are correct, Trumps immigration policies did work better at the border than Bidens mess. Wow, look my keyboard has not exploded admitting Trump got something right!

That's the first step on a long road, maybe one day I'll get you to near the end of it ;)


Only when it suited him, otherwise he was keen on states doing exactly as he told them, remember his sanctuary state threats? He did not seem so keen on those states following their own path then eh?

That's because those sanctuary laws (if we are talking about illegal Immigation and not 2A sanctuary laws) would be inviolation of the Spirit of the constitution.

(Article 4 I believe, the bit about State Borders)


Except he gave North Korea legitimacy while gaining nothing in return. What a win - for Kim!
And his larger red button tweet was trumped in the extreme by kims huge envelope gag highlighting Trumps small hands - which Trump and his team totally fell for. :laugh:

I know your position that this legitimized North Korea and I think I've agreed there is merit in your critique - however we haven't seen NK rattle the sabre for a while. It will be interesting what they do under Biden.


He lies through his teeth and gets away (for now) with corruption in the extreme. He was always a politician in waiting.

Lies that are honest, you really are Trumps man :lol:

Trump telling me that his next venture is going to be the biggest, bestest, greatest thing in the history of the entire world is far more honest than 90% of what other Politicians say.

Compared that to whatever Hillary, Biden, Ardern and alike are peddling at any one time - I'd take the worst of Trump's lies (by your definition of Lying) over anything that they have to say any day of the week.

I'll leave you free to interpret that however you wish.

[sugilite]

Ok, im on my phone in a bumpy truck, there will be errors!


For the relevant crowd an apology is an admission of Guilt that by implication gives them Power over you.

As such, when it comes to dealing with the types of interest groups we are talking about: Never Apologize..
Twaddle, he needed to apologise to the 5 and their families, not blm or antifa! Poor form there old chap.



And the last time you asked, you got a full answer..

NO. You have never once given me even half an answer yet alone a full one in regards to Trump telling his followers to march on Congress and he would be right there along side them. So go on give it a go.


That's an apples and oranges comparison however we don't have hard data - I see the Washington post are saying that they estimate it's getting fewer visitors than various sites - but the key word there is Estimate.

And when you look at how they are estimating it, it's based on Social Media shares - which raises another question - the censorship of Trump and all things Trumpian on the big Social Media platforms may be tainting the results.

However the key part at the moment is that we don't know the direction they are going to be heading, because ultimately - without user generated content, it's not going to be seeing much growth..
Mate, not even fox report on most of his posts, ive been checking. It is a very poorly received vehicle for his messaging.



Except the rate of improvement doubled under Trump, And Obama started from a recession - so factually not correct..
It did not double, and despite Obama giving the bankers free money, the dick head still managed a recovery to pass on to trump. Trump fucked it in the end.




That's because those sanctuary laws (if we are talking about illegal Immigation and not 2A sanctuary laws) would be inviolation of the Spirit of the constitution..

Spirit of the constitution? Lol, like trump ever did that! You seemed quite proud of Trump when he side stepped it on multiple occasions. So, its only ok when Trump does it? Par of the course for a serial free pass for Trump issuer. :laugh:



I know your position that this legitimized North Korea and I think I've agreed there is merit in your critique - however we haven't seen NK rattle the sabre for a while. It will be interesting what they do under Biden.

Yes, Trump totally fucked up the NK thing. Lets see if Biden does the same.




Trump telling me that his next venture is going to be the biggest, bestest, greatest thing in the history of the entire world is far more honest than 90% of what other Politicians say.

Compared that to whatever Hillary, Biden, Ardern and alike are peddling at any one time - I'd take the worst of Trump's lies (by your definition of Lying) over anything that they have to say any day of the week.

Lies are Lies, Trumps are as bad as any and a lot more frequent to boot. Good grief man :facepalm:

[TheDemonLord]

Ok, im on my phone in a bumpy truck, there will be errors!

At least one of us is having fun :D


Twaddle, he needed to apologise to the 5 and their families, not blm or antifa! Poor form there old chap.

The problem is that those groups will exist. Given the current political climate, the correct response is to NEVER apologise.

You could also make the case that if someone (or a group) are found guilty of a crime, and the crime is of a heinous nature - it is right and proper to call for the Death Penalty (if that's what you believe in), if they are subsequently exonerated (with the implication that the appropriate checks, balances and processes in the imperfect legal system have finally turned) then there's you didn't do anything wrong. The system eventually worked.


NO. You have never once given me even half an answer yet alone a full one in regards to Trump telling his followers to march on Congress and he would be right there along side them. So go on give it a go.

I'll find the post later.


Mate, not even fox report on most of his posts, ive been checking. It is a very poorly received vehicle for his messaging.

But I don't watch or follow Fox - In the wider, more 'grassroots' (I hate that term) commentary, that is closer to Trump's supporter base, There's references and discussion happening - but again I come back to my over-arching point:

Without User generated content and interaction, it's not going to be as popular.


It did not double, and despite Obama giving the bankers free money, the dick head still managed a recovery to pass on to trump. Trump fucked it in the end.

The rate of Growth did.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/134FC/production/_115200197_dow.jones2-nc.png

From the BBC no less - Trump achieved in 4 years what it took Obama 8 to do (if you average out the peaks/troughs).


Spirit of the constitution? Lol, like trump ever did that! You seemed quite proud of Trump when he side stepped it on multiple occasions. So, its only ok when Trump does it? Par of the course for a serial free pass for Trump issuer. :laugh:

Numerous times - and that includes times when I think it would have been right to intervene on what the individual states were doing.

As for Side-Stepping it - the question is what and by how much - and given some of Bidens rhetorhic on - let's say the first and second amendments - I'll take any side-steps you raise, in the manner that you raise them.


Yes, Trump totally fucked up the NK thing. Lets see if Biden does the same.

Suffice to say I disagree - I come back to my point - if we aren't going to try and talk, then why should we not just bomb them to oblivion?

I don't like NK in terms of it's governance, it's ideology, censorship, human rights abuses etc. etc. But I still feel that if we can talk with them - it might be better than parking a couple of Aircraft carriers off in international waters and levelling what little infrastructure they still have.


Lies are Lies, Trumps are as bad as any and a lot more frequent to boot. Good grief man :facepalm:

Are all lies of equal value and weighting?

I'll hear the principled argument that any lie, even if done for a noble intention:

"No Hunny, that doesn't make your arse look big"

is bad.

But when it comes to Trump vs Other politicians - When Trump says it's gonna be the biggest/bestest/largest etc. I know he's not trying to deceive me, he knows he's not trying to decieve me and most of his supporters (at least the ones I watch/follow/talk to) also understand that there is no intent at deception behind his speech.

Whereas 5 minutes of (insert preferred politician here) and it's wholly different.

[husaberg]

A continuation of the Obama days actually -.


:

Ah, Did TLDR try The old Trump did great myth for the economy......watch how he will like trump make claims but without any data to back him up.

inflation-adjusted GDP per capita increased 1.9% annually under Trump, which makes this three-year period the 16th highest among the past 30 non-overlapping three-year periods — right about average compared with his predecessors.


In Trump’s three years in office through January 2020, real consumption per person grew by 2% a year. Of the 30 non-overlapping three-year periods since 1929, this ranks Trump 12th from the bottom.


Donald Trump President

“This is the greatest economy that we've had in our history, the best.”
at a rally in Charleston, W.V. – Tuesday, August 21, 2018

https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2020/10/business/us-economy-trump-vs-other-presidents/

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/E6DC/production/_115200195_usgdp_19502-nc.png
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/A6B0/production/_114727624_us.unemployment-nc-1.png
https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/EV3RIIU7KRDGRKZQXGF7B6OX4A.png
https://images.axios.com/CMyd3vsv3Gy4mnQmpnDbvIN9LNA=/1080x1080/smart/2020/02/17/1581942999106.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Scorecard_Trump_vs._Obama.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Job_Creation_Trump_vs_Obama_33_months.png

[TheDemonLord]

Ah, Did TLDR try The old Trump did great myth for the economy......

It's not a Myth - it was the strongest economy since the post-war boom.
One of the lowest rates of unemployment, especially amongst the 'impoverished' and 'marginalized' demographics.

I mean - feel free to look at the BBC (that well known Right Wing outlet) begrudgingly admitting that the Economy did well under Trump.

[pritch]

Lies are Lies, Trumps are as bad as any and a lot more frequent to boot. Good grief man :facepalm:

All polititians lie on occasion, that's a given. Thirty thousand lies in four years is a whole nutha thing and indicative of a mind detached from reality. Who knew it was contagious?