Trump - 4 more years of this at least...

[Dean]

Yes, Trump is a confirmed liar of the highest order with his stolen election lies. As you say, now proven in the courts.

No, he acted on what he thought was a miscarriage of justice based on the information he received and thus presented. That doesn’t make him a liar, there was no malice (otherwise show me proof of ill intent).

Trump encourages all Americans to exercise their first amendment & democratic right to petition in the pursuit of justice.

That is what the courts are for after all - I didn’t make the rules…

(Not angry at you either btw).

[Kickaha]

No, he acted on what he thought was a miscarriage of justice based on the information he received and thus presented. That doesn’t make him a liar, there was no malice (otherwise show me proof of ill intent).



He started priming people by telling them the only way he could lose if the election was rigged months before the election so you statement doesn't ring true, he did the same in 2016 and he's doing the same now

[TheDemonLord]

He started priming people by telling them the only way he could lose if the election was rigged months before the election so you statement doesn't ring true, he did the same in 2016 and he's doing the same now

What *exactly* did he say in 2016?

I believe the quote was from a series of Tweets and he is specifically talking about Media company bias influencing the Election. Or should I say Election Fortification (https://time.com/5936036/secret-2020-election-campaign/)

And remember - this is after Elon bought Twitter - and we know for a fact that there was... a Harmonious relationship between the FBI, DNC and Twitter (A relationship that had been inferred long before the purchase for a number of Social Media companies - but we only have the concrete proof for Twitter) and that there were internal blacklists, policies, tools and procedures to suppress certain accounts that had a decidedly conservative outlook.

If you have a News Media that can make up stories with impunity (like the cowards and losers comment that has been denied by everyone in attendance), a Social Media that can suppress true news source (like Hunters Laptop) and do so in a critical phase of an Election - what would you call that if not Election Rigging?

Whilst it may not be changing the tally of votes - the net result is virtually identical. A Free and fair election depends on a free and fair press.

And as a case in point:

The same Press that said Trump was mentally unfit due to cognitive decline to be President whilst he was in Office, but Biden was sharp as a Tack, right up until the Debate shattered that, you know, we beat medicare.

[Pursang]

US election 2016: Trump says election 'rigged at polling places'

Published 17 October 2016 - https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37673797

[TheDemonLord]

US election 2016: Trump says election 'rigged at polling places'

Published 17 October 2016 - https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37673797

And due to Media Bias, from your source ;)

[pritch]

No, he acted on what he thought was a miscarriage of justice based on the information he received and thus presented. That doesn’t make him a liar, there was no malice (otherwise show me proof of ill intent).


Not close to reality that's just joke status. There is a huge amount of evidence available of Trump's lies to anyone who is interested. It's a mystery to me how you've missed it. All of the experts involved, multiple recounts, sixty odd court cases, and the officials who ran the election, say there was no significant fraud. Trump said before the election that he wouldn't accept the result if it went against him. He still hasn't conceded.

Trump lies about everything. It's safer to assume he is lying than to believe anything he says and that was before the onset of his rapid mental deterioration. Bearing in mind that he was not very bright to start with.

One from the way back stack relating to his character that may be news to you. When Trump applied for a casino licence in Australia it was declined because of his mob connections.

[sugilite]

No, he acted on what he thought was a miscarriage of justice based on the information he received and thus presented.
He has been presented with proof many times by the courts and even by his own election integrity team member.
Trump even said a republican primary (an election run by republicans) was rigged when his endorsed pick Dr Oz lost!!!
At what point Dean will you accept that when trump does not get the result he wants in an election he just lies by saying it was rigged?

[Laava]

He has been presented with proof many times by the courts and even by his own election integrity team member.
Trump even said a republican primary (an election run by republicans) was rigged when his endorsed pick Dr Oz lost!!!
At what point Dean will you accept that when trump does not get the result he wants in an election he just lies by saying it was rigged?
I think you will find he is irretreivably entrenched in his beliefs. Facts don't come into it.

[pritch]

I think you will find he is irretreivably entrenched in his beliefs. Facts don't come into it.

The people who say it's a cult know that of which they speak.

[sugilite]

I think you will find he is irretreivably entrenched in his beliefs. Facts don't come into it.

I read a bit of a blurb from a book written by some professor* from a US University that basically boiled down to "Tribe Before Truth". It kinda explained the maga movement perfectly for me. Don't get me wrong, there are loads on the left that drink from that batch of kool-Aid, but hot diggity dang, those magas bloody swim in an Olympic sized pool of the stuff!


* Please note: It is widely believed in circles comprising of "those with right legs 10 cm's shorter than their left" - that the majority of professors from US universities are indeed highly skilled open cover marxist operatives, doing every dastardly trick in the book to turn the USA into one big evil Marxist state using everyone else's money. Naturally all built on a sea of blood and the bones of kittens.

[husaberg]

Not close to reality that's just joke status. There is a huge amount of evidence available of Trump's lies to anyone who is interested. It's a mystery to me how you've missed it. All of the experts involved, multiple recounts, sixty odd court cases, and the officials who ran the election, say there was no significant fraud. Trump said before the election that he wouldn't accept the result if it went against him. He still hasn't conceded.

Trump lies about everything. It's safer to assume he is lying than to believe anything he says and that was before the onset of his rapid mental deterioration. Bearing in mind that he was not very bright to start with.

One from the way back stack relating to his character that may be news to you. When Trump applied for a casino licence in Australia it was declined because of his mob connections.
354885
This is a weird thing to say if you never lost an election direct quote


Donald Trump got caught forgetting his own lie — that the 2020 election was stolen from him — during an interview with journalist Ramin Setoodeh for his new book, “Apprentice in Wonderland,” according to a tape Setoodeh shared Thursday with MSNBC’s Nicole Wallace.

Setoodeh, the co-editor-in-cheif of Variety, told Wallace that he and Trump were discussing the latter's falling out with his once close friend, former Fox News personality Geraldo Rivera. As the subject came up , the presumptive GOP nominee let it slip that Rivera called him after he “lost the election,”




then you have whiteness reports under oath.
During the ninth and possibly final hearing, the committee investigating the January 6 insurrection shared new testimony from Alyssa Farah, a former White House aide, who said that a week after the election was called in favor of Biden, Trump was watching Biden on the television in the Oval Office, and said: “‘Can you believe I lost to this effing guy?’”

Jan 6 hearing updates: panel votes to subpoena Donald Trump – as it happened
Read more
In another new clip of testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson, a top aide to former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows, she shared that Trump told Meadows: “I don’t want people to know we lost, Mark. This is embarrassing. Figure it out.”

[pritch]

As if Trump didn't have enough legal problems he now has two more.

The family of Isaac Hayes has commenced legal action against Trump for use of the song "Hold On I'm Coming" at rallies in breach of copyright.

The United Auto Workers have initiated litigation against Trump and Musk with regard to comments they made in their public meeting on X a night or two back.
I might have been tempted to listen to that but it was running late. It eventually started forty minutes late.

[pritch]

Stable genius at work.

[onearmedbandit]

As if Trump didn't have enough legal problems he now has two more.

The family of Isaac Hayes has commenced legal action against Trump for use of the song "Hold On I'm Coming" at rallies in breach of copyright.



The stupidity goes further than Trump and deep into his campaign aides as that shit should be checked off by his team and not him. I'm not partisan on this, I think stupidity leaks into every spectrum of the political spread.

[Grumph]

The stupidity goes further than Trump and deep into his campaign aides as that shit should be checked off by his team and not him. I'm not partisan on this, I think stupidity leaks into every spectrum of the political spread.

Yes and no. If the candidate/team leader shows he/she considers themselves entitled it will spread down from the top.
This isn't Trumps first unauthorised use of a song - and I'd bet it won't be the last.

I'm perhaps lucky in that I've only once worked for a wealthy person who considered that the rules did not apply to them.
It was however an eye-opener as to what they thought they could get away with.

[onearmedbandit]

Yes and no. If the candidate/team leader shows he/she considers themselves entitled it will spread down from the top.
This isn't Trumps first unauthorised use of a song - and I'd bet it won't be the last.

I'm perhaps lucky in that I've only once worked for a wealthy person who considered that the rules did not apply to them.
It was however an eye-opener as to what they thought they could get away with.

Of course, my point was someone else no doubt decided (for whatever reason) to ignore copyright. Unless Trump did it all by himself and put the song on by himself at the rallies in question. I've known both wealthy and poor who were entitled enough to think the rules didn't apply to them. Wealth was the factor, ignorance and arrogance was all it took.

[HenryDorsetCase]

A

The family of Isaac Hayes has commenced legal action against Trump for use of the song "Hold On I'm Coming" at rallies in breach of copyright.



Has American of the year, this year and every year, Stormy Daniels, been approached for comment?

[HenryDorsetCase]

Yes and no. If the candidate/team leader shows he/she considers themselves entitled it will spread down from the top.
This isn't Trumps first unauthorised use of a song - and I'd bet it won't be the last.

I'm perhaps lucky in that I've only once worked for a wealthy person who considered that the rules did not apply to them.
It was however an eye-opener as to what they thought they could get away with.


"William Gibson, in COUNT ZERO said

"And, for an instant, she stared directly into those soft blue eyes and knew, with an instinctive mammalian certainty, that the exceedingly rich were no longer even remotely human

[R650R]

It will be interesting to see how various blogs and news agency’s on both sides will cover this.
Texas DA files felony corruption charges on 2022 election worker after independent investigation by the infamous Texas Rangers.
Before anyone gets too excited it’s all about not enough voting papers due to one guys laziness and greed, apparently there was no intent to interfere in election result.
The guy literally had one job, to make sure adequate allocation of voting papers, but he decided he needed two jobs and took on another full time job in oil and gas industry at same time. As such he paid lip service to voting papers job and also fraudulently claimed paid parental leave while having second job.
Anyhow in the early days news of this stuff being investigated (has to be by law if more than two people make affidavits to DA)you can see how some would easily lead think to claim election fraud/problems.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rtp6jcJKd8

[husaberg]

Yes and no. If the candidate/team leader shows he/she considers themselves entitled it will spread down from the top.
This isn't Trumps first unauthorised use of a song - and I'd bet it won't be the last.

I'm perhaps lucky in that I've only once worked for a wealthy person who considered that the rules did not apply to them.
It was however an eye-opener as to what they thought they could get away with.

Yes, Celine Dion is also a bit upset about him using one of here songs without permission.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/08/11/really-that-song-celine-dion-slams-trump-for-using-her-music/


Celine Dion's management team and her record label, Sony Music Entertainment Canada Inc, became aware of the unauthorized usage of the video, recording, musical performance, and likeness of Celine Dion singing My Heart Will Go On at a Donald Trump/JD Vance campaign rally in Montana," a message posted to Dion's social media accounts read."In no way is this use authorized, and Celine Dion does not endorse this or any similar use.
"… And really, THAT song?"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxfdSdScgrA

no doubt his team or supporters will claim immunity or first amendment...

[sugilite]

Yesterday Musk had a one on one interview with trump on X
It was beset with tech issues that held the show up for 40+ minutes. Reminds me of the ill fated desantis primary run announcement. :laugh:
Musk said he was going to have a conversation with trump rather than an interview as such, so everyone could get to know trump in that style of setting.
The difference was amazing, trump was lively, and started talking about policy of all things! He spoke extensively about his health plan replacement for obamacare he has been working on over the last 8 years.
JUST KIDDING!
It was the same old trump for 2 hours of wahhhhhh, wahhhhh stolen election and the other 5 greatest hits of petty grievances with musk asking a lame question every 10 minutes or so and then musk just responding, "yeah, hmmm, right, yeah", while sounding incredibly bored. Trump seemed to either have a mouthful of gumballs, or had a really bad mike. Either way if he was hoping this was going to move the needle on his badlay flailing campaign, this was not it. What a fucking borefest YAWN :yawn:

Oh yeah, at the same time the bookies in Las Vegas have changed the odds from trump to kamala winning - and everyone knows those guys would rather lose their left testicle than $1 on a bad bet.

John Stewart summed up trumps latest campaign antics very succinctly in the video below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VW6tHIcGfc&pp=ygUPdGhlIGRhaWxleSBzaG93

[sugilite]

Yes, Celine Dion is also a bit upset about him using one of here songs without permission.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/08/11/really-that-song-celine-dion-slams-trump-for-using-her-music/




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxfdSdScgrA

no doubt his team or supporters will claim immunity or first amendment...

Last week at one of his rallies, the maga rally organizers were playing the theme of the titanic to warm the crowd up - GOLD!

[Kb2020dope]

Thank you for clearing that up mate, because it looked for all the world like you were trying to pull a low ranking troll move by coming into a thread, throwing a bunch of shade around then attempting to make yourself look like the sole voice of reason and morality - then stand back and congratulate yourself on the ensuing carnage. Whew, THANK GOODNESS it was not that!

For the record, I'm not really sure if any website on planet earth is safe for you to visit if an image of a girl blowing kisses causes you moral discomfort. Chin up petal!


Well business as usual happened in this thread over the last few weeks. It has been a lot rowdier in the past, and at times does quieten down as we all get a bit tired of reporting on trumps never ending self propelled lies and dramas. It does always liven up when two or one magas arrive and spout a whole lot of trump lies with zero links or proof to back up their "stats" such as Deans impressive looking trumps tax cuts worked posts - ZERO LINKS provided.
You will have to forgive our scepticism, as higher IQ magas in the past have dropped by kb, and at first their stats looked very believable, until when pressed for their sources, could only provide a pdf of someones personal opinions that had only been downloaded a handful of times.:laugh: Obviously much merriment ensued in the thread.
What I would like you and Dean to do is back up your trump utterances with links to your sources.
Until you do that, I fear you will just be written off as low rent trolls. And golly, dang, and gosh - we would not want disinformation like that on this thread would we?

Hey bud,

Firstly, I would like to thankyou for your time and effort.

Secondly, I would like you to compact your opinion into a smaller and more organised statement.

Now, I'm not sure what websites you visit to see little girls blowing kisses. I find this deeply concerning that you seem to come across this often.

I would like for you to take a step back and think for yourself.
I would like you to consider that not everything mainstream media says is the truth.
I would like you to accept a large percentage want Donald Trump as their president.

Bud, let's just see what happens on election day.

Thankyou

[Dean]

No it wasn't.

That was a con someone made up as an excuse for the rich getting richer.

The middle class make up the majority of mortgage recipients in the US.

Mortgage lending significantly increased in 2018 post cut.

Meaning more middle class home owners.

One of the factors being the easier access to capital for banks, largely driven by things like the corporate tax rate reduction.

[Pursang]

Donald Trump's History of Angering Musicians: From Aerosmith to Rihanna

Actually, it starts at Adele goes to Village People


https://www.newsweek.com/trump-isaac-hayes-lawsuit-musicians-angry-aerosmith-rihanna-1937934

[husaberg]

if you keep repeating trumps lies even if you know they are lies or even worse if you can figure out they are lies ,
Whoever does that must be a special kind of stupid. Or a weak form of troll.
Years ago trolls were a bit smarter.
They mixed it up a bit, these current crop appear to be just attention seeking, no talent ass clowns. Not even capable of phoning it in.

recent weeks, President Donald Trump has been talking about plans for, as he put it, a “very substantial tax cut for middle income folks who work so hard.” But before Congress embarks on a new tax measure, people should consider one of the largely unexamined effects of the last tax bill, which Trump promised would help the middle class: Would you believe it has inflicted a trillion dollars of damage on homeowners — many of them middle class — throughout the country?

That massive number is the reduction in home values caused by the 2017 tax law that capped federal deductions for state and local real estate and income taxes at $10,000 a year and also eliminated some mortgage interest deductions. The impact varies widely across different areas. Counties with high home prices and high real estate taxes and where homeowners have big mortgages are suffering the biggest hit, as you’d expect, given the larger value of the lost tax deductions. But as we’ll see, homeowners all over the country are feeling the effects.
Zandi says that because of the 2017 tax law, U.S. house prices overall are about 4% lower than they’d otherwise be. The next question is how many dollars of lost home value that 4% translates into. That isn’t so hard to figure out if you get your hands on the right numbers.


Let me show you.


The Federal Reserve Board says that as of March 31, U.S. home values totaled about $26.1 trillion. Apply Zandi’s 4% number to that, and you end up with a $1.04 trillion setback for the nation’s home owners. That’s right — a trillion, with a T.

[pritch]

Now, I'm not sure what websites you visit to see little girls blowing kisses. .

Is this girl in the room with you now? I haven't seen Sugilite referencing any girls little or otherwise.



I would like you to accept a large percentage want Donald Trump as their president.


It is probably quite large, after all there's one born every minute. Although it may not be as big as you think, even allowing for all the gerrymandering.

[pritch]

Reflecting on Trump's unauthorised use of copyrighted material, I'm reminded of when the National Party here did something similar. IIRC it was Stephen Joyce offered his expert opinion on the TV News. Joyce thought it was, "Pretty legal." A novel concept, his comment made some US TV News shows.

[sugilite]

Hey bud,

Firstly, I would like to thankyou for your time and effort.
No prob


Secondly, I would like you to compact your opinion into a smaller and more organised statement.
OK, I dumb down 4 u - though I ask, how u deal with hard bible - may be trump bible for sun day school kids?



Now, I'm not sure what websites you visit to see little girls blowing kisses. I find this deeply concerning that you seem to come across this often.
Get help for broke mind - seek help with addicts group - great place to meet priests and swap notes.




I would like for you to take a step back and think for yourself.
I would like you to consider that not everything mainstream media says is the truth.
I would like you to accept a large percentage want Donald Trump as their president.

I have 2 ask u. How you like weird man who have hots for own childs and tells whole World?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EPEkk6qWkg



Bud, let's just see what happens on election day.


Oh, u no want to talk bout trump? U in wrong thread.

Thank u
Have good day.

[pete376403]

Comparing the madness of King George and a wannbe king https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/14/trump-harris-election-campaign

[Laava]

OK, I dumb down 4 u - though I ask, how u deal with hard bible - may be trump bible for sun day school kids?
Get help for broke mind - seek help with addicts group - great place to meet priests and swap notes.

Thank u
Have good day.
I used to wonder why religious extremists were flocking at Trumps feet. But I guess they already are highly gullible and hear what they want to hear…

[Grumph]

Interesting news. Trump has reportedly watched video of the assasination attempt multiple times - "over and over"

There appears to be a possibility he genuinely has PTSD.

That and the senile decline already noted may explain his inability to stay on message when speaking.

[husaberg]

Yesterday Musk had a one on one interview with trump on X
It was beset with tech issues that held the show up for 40+ minutes. Reminds me of the ill fated desantis primary run announcement. :laugh:
Musk said he was going to have a conversation with trump rather than an interview as such, so everyone could get to know trump in that style of setting.
The difference was amazing, trump was lively, and started talking about policy of all things! He spoke extensively about his health plan replacement for obamacare he has been working on over the last 8 years.
JUST KIDDING!
It was the same old trump for 2 hours of wahhhhhh, wahhhhh stolen election and the other 5 greatest hits of petty grievances with musk asking a lame question every 10 minutes or so and then musk just responding, "yeah, hmmm, right, yeah", while sounding incredibly bored. Trump seemed to either have a mouthful of gumballs, or had a really bad mike. Either way if he was hoping this was going to move the needle on his badlay flailing campaign, this was not it. What a fucking borefest YAWN :yawn:

Oh yeah, at the same time the bookies in Las Vegas have changed the odds from trump to kamala winning - and everyone knows those guys would rather lose their left testicle than $1 on a bad bet.

John Stewart summed up trumps latest campaign antics very succinctly in the video below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VW6tHIcGfc&pp=ygUPdGhlIGRhaWxleSBzaG93

It seems hes blaming technology rather then the fact he is a old at times ranting incoherent cretin fro his strange lisping mumbling mispronouncing vocals.
even he says he is strange.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSmqVh5BPNM

Trump’s critics and others listening to the Monday night chat with Musk pointed out that the former president at times sounded like he had a lisp or was struggling to clearly enunciate word
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4827219-trump-blames-technology-for-somewhat-different-and-strange-voice-in-musk-interview/

He also says he has had th biggest crowds in the history of politics.
really ... bigger then Nuremberg

2 minutes in


https://youtu.be/5cmnJmxFODg?t=119

[Dean]

The $10,000 state and local tax deduction cap, introduced by Trump, affected the wealthy more so than middle class.

These caps disproportionately affected individuals with multiple properties and high value real estate markets (upper class) where property and state taxes often exceed $10,000.

The vast majority of middle class homeowners in the US do not exceed the $10,000 limit on property taxes alone.

Link: https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/property-taxes-by-state-county-2022/

It also hurt the upper class even more-so in high tax states such as New Jersey, New York and parts of Virginia.

Places like Manhattan…Long Island…Westchester - the upper class areas.

Middle class on average own one home - so any losses would be limited and sunk into the one home (not a compounding loss over multiple properties).

Link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeownership_in_the_United_States

It’s pretty simple.

[husaberg]

:yawn:

Now
https://brucezim.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/images-1.jpeg

https://images.prismic.io/thedecisionlab/Zk4xGiol0Zci9XYo_Illusorytrutheffect.jpg?auto=form at,compress

[pete376403]

10 characters

[pete376403]

10 more chars

[Pursang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCM8YYywkoU

[sugilite]

The $10,000 state and local tax deduction cap, introduced by Trump, affected the wealthy more so than middle class.

Link: https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/property-taxes-by-state-county-2022/

It’s pretty simple.
Holy shit Dean, links!
I did a background search on taxfoundation.org and found that what they report has an approximately 50% truth rate, which by current standards, is actually pretty good. So thanks for that.

You may have missed that a project 2025 leader was secretly recorded and yeah, trump was not only aware of it, but actually gave it and their policies his blessing.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2024/08/15/what-we-know-about-trumps-link-to-project-2025-as-author-claims-ex-president-blessed-it-in-secret-recording/
Scarily they already have hundreds of Presidential executive orders all lined up for trump to sign from day one.
Dean, the last thing these guys are interested in is making life good for middle class workers, in fact they will absolutely be looking to transfer what little wealth they still have from the middle class to their own pockets.
They even want to ban pornography, so the poor americans cannot even have a decent wank to take their minds of all their rights that project 2025 will strip away if they get a chance.

So once again, trump has been caught blatantly barefaced lying about really important things - things that every american voter should be informed of before voting starts.

Now, I have just had a look at both yours and kbdopes KB profiles, and with myself being naturally gifted with incredible powers of observation, I could not help but notice that you guys have the exact same background in your profile photos - very, very suspicious mate. Hmmmmmmm :sherlock:

[husaberg]

354893
354894

..........

[Kb2020dope]

Is this girl in the room with you now? I haven't seen Sugilite referencing any girls little or otherwise.

Hey bud,

No.
I have seen it. I'm not sure if he's attracted to young females or if hes potentially fantasising about being a little girl. Either way as a lefty I trust you will support him.

It is probably quite large, after all there's one born every minute. Although it may not be as big as you think, even allowing for all the gerrymandering.

We shall see on the big day. Come over for a BBQ bud

[Kb2020dope]

No prob


OK, I dumb down 4 u - though I ask, how u deal with hard bible - may be trump bible for sun day school kids?



Get help for broke mind - seek help with addicts group - great place to meet priests and swap notes.





I have 2 ask u. How you like weird man who have hots for own childs and tells whole World?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EPEkk6qWkg




Oh, u no want to talk bout trump? U in wrong thread.

Thank u
Have good day.

Brother,

You are more organised. I'm impressed! However, you are still not making sense.

You are talking about school kids, addicts and priests.

I now understand why you guys don't normal people posting on your little trump thread. You want to chat about kids, addicts and priests in peace.

Please get help or remove yourself from kiwi biker.

[Dean]

Holy shit Dean, links!
I did a background search on taxfoundation.org and found that what they report has an approximately 50% truth rate, which by current standards, is actually pretty good. So thanks for that.

Links aside, one just exercises common sense - the property tax is based on the value of the home.

People with high value homes pay more property tax.

People with high value homes (above the average percentile) tend to be upper class.

State tax is based off taxable income, the more income you make in high paying jobs (not entrepreneurs or business owners) the higher you pay.

People with high incomes tend to be considered as “upper class”.

If you have multiple properties - it compounds.

Therefore to cap tax benefits at 10k - means the upper class are punished by their success.



You may have missed that a project 2025 leader was secretly recorded and yeah, trump was not only aware of it, but actually gave it and their policies his blessing.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2024/08/15/what-we-know-about-trumps-link-to-project-2025-as-author-claims-ex-president-blessed-it-in-secret-recording/
Scarily they already have hundreds of Presidential executive orders all lined up for trump to sign from day one.
Dean, the last thing these guys are interested in is making life good for middle class workers, in fact they will absolutely be looking to transfer what little wealth they still have from the middle class to their own pockets.
They even want to ban pornography, so the poor americans cannot even have a decent wank to take their minds of all their rights that project 2025 will strip away if they get a chance.

So once again, trump has been caught blatantly barefaced lying about really important things - things that every american voter should be informed of before voting starts.

Now, I have just had a look at both yours and kbdopes KB profiles, and with myself being naturally gifted with incredible powers of observation, I could not help but notice that you guys have the exact same background in your profile photos - very, very suspicious mate. Hmmmmmmm :sherlock:

If that were true, then why are the upper class being punished with a cap on property tax benefits, a cap of 10k that separates the middle class (within their range) from the upper class (typically exceed that).

So let’s recap - it was stated in this thread that trump had committed x amount of lies.

I followed that link and the second foundational “lie” was that trumps tax cut was not the largest in US history. And that it was destroying the middle class.

Both of which I have debunked and have provided analysis, logic and evidence.
Yet still to this day - crickets.

So here I am again at the crux of the issue - if Trump is a liar, let’s break down each scenario and use logic, data and common sense to address it.

Void of emotion and personal disgust.

Once I peel back the shiny layers I tend to find rotten fruit.

[Dean]

Now, I have just had a look at both yours and kbdopes KB profiles, and with myself being naturally gifted with incredible powers of observation, I could not help but notice that you guys have the exact same background in your profile photos - very, very suspicious mate. Hmmmmmmm :sherlock:

I want to preface my response firstly by saying I have respect for you based on how you have dealt with me in the past. And therefore I respect your opinion.

But this conspiracy about me and KB2020 is very unnecessary.

A moderator has confirmed there is no proof of multiple accounts.

In fact, KB2020 has put up a post in the meetings and events sub forum for people to join me and him - coro loop next weekend.

People are welcome to say hello and we are friendly people despite how we are perceived to come across on here.

[Dean]

Not close to reality that's just joke status. There is a huge amount of evidence available of Trump's lies to anyone who is interested. It's a mystery to me how you've missed it. All of the experts involved, multiple recounts, sixty odd court cases, and the officials who ran the election, say there was no significant fraud. Trump said before the election that he wouldn't accept the result if it went against him. He still hasn't conceded.

Trump lies about everything. It's safer to assume he is lying than to believe anything he says and that was before the onset of his rapid mental deterioration. Bearing in mind that he was not very bright to start with.

One from the way back stack relating to his character that may be news to you. When Trump applied for a casino licence in Australia it was declined because of his mob connections.

I think you’re forgetting that we have some common ground, I have admitted that Trump has lied in the past and that I don’t encourage that behaviour.

I also acknowledged that the courts have come to a decision and I accept that.

Whilst I also acknowledge that none of us are perfect, including that none of us have or will ever be in a position of responsibility & pressure that Trump is subjected to.

Or be party to information from advisors and party members who may have views on the fairness of the election system.

The crux of where we don’t align lies in the perception of if Trump genuinely felt a grievance to a process or result. Which people do feel that way about some things, they’re entitled to a right to petition and it happens all across the world.

Or if he did it with malicious intent - if he didn’t actually believe that, but stated it untruthfully.

So provide me proof that shows he was the latter - fair enough?

Now your off handed comment about Trump and mob ties is just nonsensical.

The mafia were and always are ingrained into the vertical construction industry in the USA.

https://www.history.com/news/how-mafia-infiltrated-american-labor-unions

With declared members and/or connections in and/or running the workers unions spanning from the 70’s to present.

You couldn’t build a sky scraper in Manhattan without having any of their businesses involved (they ran the union, concrete plants, quarries, contractor outfits, crane hires etc!).

[Kb2020dope]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSd4m_UQ868iSuI-0Bl3RfqB1QjqbtiKg8S-34F23Gus2w9YVUpoaX7TTkH3bRI5VNLep8&usqp=CAU

Hey champ,

I see you enjoy your research. Now, this is what us folk under the age of 45 call banter.

I am deep concerned that you are spending your friday night looking at my posts from 4 years ago. I think this link may be helpful to you.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/the-hottest-hobbies-to-have-poll/6Y5VUVT2LU62NUSJPBVIUBASL4/

All the best on your potential new hobbies bud.

[Pursang]

links aside, one just exercises common sense - the property tax is based on the value of the home.

people with high value homes pay more property tax.

People with high value homes purchase them in full knowledge of the property tax involved.

people with high value homes (above the average percentile) tend to be upper class.

The concept of an "upper class" is rather archaic (particularly outside of Britain). let's just say they tend to be wealthy.

state tax is based off taxable income, the more income you make in high paying jobs (not entrepreneurs or business owners) the higher you pay.

Yes, entrepreneurs and business owners have infinitely many more options to minimize taxable income, than salary workers. Your point?

people with high incomes tend to be considered as “upper class”. Let's just say they tend to be wealthy.

if you have multiple properties - it compounds.

No it just adds! + smart wealthy people/families also have access to trust and corporate structures to maximize deductions and minimize or transfer net profits.
Combining property holdings in multiple units allows the ability to balance income production with those sweet, sweet capital gains.
Significant capital assets and a self funding income source allows obtaining loans at well below the std. bank retail interest rates. Average working people have no access to these.

therefore to cap tax benefits at 10k - means the upper class are punished by their success.

Personal choices + the user pays (i believe this is a fiscal conservative mantra)....oh! The poor, poor bastards! (see above)

if that were true, then why are the upper class (wealthy) being punished with a cap on property tax benefits, a cap of 10k that separates the middle class (within their range) from the upper class (typically exceed that).

As explained above, those who choose higher value properties, do so (or at least should be expected to) of their own free will, in the knowledge that that choice has higher operational costs! Don't forget the gardener.
Warren Buffet, an extraordinarily wealthy person, chooses to live in a modest home and claim the appropriate tax benefit for it!

so let’s recap - it was stated in this thread that trump had committed x amount of lies.
I followed that link and the second foundational "lies” was that trumps tax cut was not the largest in us history. And that it was destroying the middle class.

Trump personally claimed (of course) that his tax cut was the Largest Ever. "by comparison to the largest historical tax cuts, the 2017 tax cuts and jobs act (tcja) enacted under trump ranks as the 10th largest tax cut since 1940"
https://taxfoundation.org/blog/largest-tax-cuts-hikes-biden-trump-tax-proposals/
"president trump cut the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 21 percent, the largest percentage point reduction of the top marginal rate in history".
https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/president-donald-j-trump-achieved-biggest-tax-cuts-reforms-american-history/

The $8.4 trillion that trump added to the federal debt has a significant and ongoing contribution to inflation, that is claimed by MAGAts to be one of the biglyist problems in the USA today.OOPS! now down to 2.9%

so here i am again at the crux of the issue - if trump is a liar, let’s break down each scenario and use logic, data and common sense to address it. Void of emotion and personal disgust.

US N.P.R. Did a postmortem fact check on trump's Mar a Lago press thing. They found 162 errors (lies) committed in 62 minutes, more than one lie in each 30 seconds.
https://www.npr.org/2024/08/11/nx-s1-5070566/trump-news-conference

once i peel back the shiny layers i tend to find rotten fruit.

So do I, so do I!

[pritch]

Trump has submitted the statement of his financial affairs as required for a presidential candidate. Surprise! It overvalues his assets and undervalues his liabilities. He could get new fraud charges added to those he's already been found guilty of.

Not all of those reporting have noticed the detail. He owes near $100 million from his defamation cases but he lists only the amount of the bond. Similarly the half billion he owes NY as a result of the fraud case there. Again he lists the amount of the bond not the amount of the judgement.

His income from the sale of bibles and his FTs is unbelievable. Literally.

We may have to wait for reports from the more inquisitive financial journalists. The major papers so far appear to be unquestioningly reporting what he claims.

[sugilite]

Brother,

You are more organised. I'm impressed! However, you are still not making sense.

You are talking about school kids, addicts and priests.

I now understand why you guys don't normal people posting on your little trump thread. You want to chat about kids, addicts and priests in peace.

Please get help or remove yourself from kiwi biker.

U avoid trump video where he lust own kids - trump own words - no media slant. yet pic of girl blow bubble - u blush - u strange maga.

U like put word in sugi mouth - hope u not want to put other thing in sugi mouth. Seek help dope must.
Good luck to dope.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf4BJZW9pY4

A very fair analysis.

For what it is worth, I disagree with Ryan McBeth on some aspects (he did a series on the twitter account End Wokeness, which suffice to say I had some issues with his perspective on things) - but for all my disagreements with him - he is very much not partisan.

[sugilite]

So here I am again at the crux of the issue - if Trump is a liar, let’s break down each scenario and use logic, data and common sense to address it.

Void of emotion and personal disgust.

Once I peel back the shiny layers I tend to find rotten fruit.

Heyya Dean, I think you missed my point. Trump swore black and blue he knew nothing about project 25, yet in the secret recording, the major architect of project2025 stated very clearly they have worked in lockstep with trump this whole time. This = trump being proven a liar again.

I will repeat - men like trump and those of project 2025 do not have the middle class interests at heart and they never will. There is a hell of a lot more to the picture than just property tax breaks. I "think" that those benefits are about to expire for the middle class tax payers soon. Trump did state in the interview with musk he was wanting to give billionaires more tax cuts and other benefits - he did not mention the poor old middle class getting an extension.

Did you see trumps explanation of inflation using packets of tic tacs? That should give you an idea he has no idea what it even really is. You can say he meant Shrinkflation, but if he did, he completely failed to articulate it with any clarity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grx3Dp6iW-0&pp=ygUuZG9uYWxkIHRydW1wIGV4cGxhaW5zIGluZmxhdGlvbiB 1c2luZyB0aWMgdGFjcw%3D%3D
Further to the subject of inflation, what the mainstream media and politicians fail to address is as soon as corporations hear the word "inflation" they wring their hands with glee and jack their prices to gouge people while throwing up their hands and saying the magical gouge enabling "but inflation". Which if course makes the inflation even worse. PLENTY of NZ companies did the same.

[Pursang]

Further to the subject of inflation, what the mainstream media and politicians fail to address is as soon as corporations hear the word "inflation" they wring their hands with glee and jack their prices to gouge people while throwing up their hands and saying the magical gouge enabling "but inflation". Which if course makes the inflation even worse. PLENTY of NZ companies did the same.

Three Phases of an economy: Recession - Stagnation - Inflation.

Only one of these is Really Good for business & profits!

[pritch]

Yesterday I noticed a car parked near here with a MAGA number plate. I wondered if that MAGA referred to the obvious. This morning I mentioned it to the passenger as we headed out for coffee and she looked back and reported that the car parked next to it had a Qanon plate. The enemy is *that* close. What kind of idiots would pay good money for those plates? It's not as if the cars were anything like new.

[Dean]

So do I, so do I!

Pursang,

The heart of what I was getting at was that the middle class were not the greatest affected class in relation to the property state tax caps.

Which according to your post you don’t seem to disagree.

So maybe we have reached common ground on that point.

As for the links you provided - I have already touched on this - they measure the “largest tax cut in history” based off the cut relative to the GDP at that point in time.

Which is a flawed metric as you need to take into account the health of the economy (GDP) at the time of the cuts.

10% of a weak GDP and/or an era with extremely high inflation & interest rates (Reagan’s period upwards of 13.1% inflation and 19% federal interest rates in 1981) is less than 7% of a strong & growing GDP and/or with stable inflation..

What stands as truth is no other president has issued a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut in their term, none, dollar value not % of GDP. Hence Trump was not wrong.

When you look at cuts like that of Obamas during a severe economic downturn - he is favoured by that metric for fronting less - even if you wanted to escalate his tax cuts by 2% YOY to 2017.

[Berries]

Yesterday I noticed a car parked near here with a MAGA number plate. I wondered if that MAGA referred to the obvious. This morning I mentioned it to the passenger as we headed out for coffee and she looked back and reported that the car parked next to it had a Qanon plate. The enemy is *that* close. What kind of idiots would pay good money for those plates? It's not as if the cars were anything like new.
I have a pretty good idea which two people might park next to each other, if you know what I mean................


Was one of them suffering rear end damage?

[husaberg]

trump issues trillions in tax cuts (aimed mainly targeted to help the rich) and also increased natuional debt by trillions at the same time ....i wonder if they are related?
#note this happened even before the covid pandemic.


Trump predicted that economic growth created by the 2017 tax cut, combined with the proceeds from the tariffs he imposed on a wide range of goods from numerous countries, would help eliminate the budget deficit and let the U.S. begin to pay down its debt. On July 27, 2018, he told Sean Hannity of Fox News: “We have $21 trillion in debt. When this [the 2017 tax cut] really kicks in, we’ll start paying off that debt like it’s water.”

That’s not how it played out. When Trump took office in January 2017, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office was projecting that federal budget deficits would be 2% to 3% of our gross domestic product during Trump’s term. Instead, the deficit reached nearly 4% of gross domestic product in 2018 and 4.6% in 2019.

There were multiple culprits. Trump’s tax cuts, especially the sharp reduction in the corporate tax rate to 21% from 35%, took a big bite out of federal revenue. The CBO estimated in 2018 that the tax cut would increase deficits by about $1.9 trillion over 11 years.

The tariffs did bring in additional revenue. In fiscal 2019, they netted about $71 billion, up about $36 billion from President Barack Obama’s last year in office. But although $36 billion is a lot of money, it’s less than 1/750th of the national debt..

By early 2019, the national debt had climbed to $22 trillion. Trump’s budget proposal for 2020 called it a “grave threat to our economic and societal prosperity” and asserted that the U.S. was experiencing a “national debt crisis.” However, that same budget proposal included substantial growth in the national debt.


Dec. 31, 2020, the national debt had jumped to $27.75 trillion, up 39% from $19.95 trillion when Trump was sworn in.


Still, the deficit growth under Trump has been historic. Steuerle, of the Tax Policy Center, has done a comparison of every American president using a metric called the “primary deficit.” It’s defined as the deficit minus interest costs, because interest is the only budget expense that presidents and Congress can’t control unless they want to do the unthinkable and default on the debt. Steuerle examined the records of 45 presidents to see how the primary deficit had shrunk or grown relative to the size of the economy between the first and final years of each president’s administration.

Trump had the third-biggest primary deficit growth, 5.2% of GDP, behind only George W. Bush (11.7%) and Abraham Lincoln (9.4%). Bush, of course, not only passed a big tax cut, as Trump has, but also launched two wars, which greatly inflated the defense budget. Lincoln had to pay for the Civil War. By contrast, Trump’s wars have been almost entirely of the political variety (https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump).

was asked about this risk during a virtual discussion with the Economic Club of New York last October. “If we have another stimulus bill out of Congress, are you worried that the entire amount of federal debt will be too large for us to pay off in a sensible way?” asked David Rubenstein, a private equity executive.


Trump answered by falsely claiming that the U.S. was starting to pay off the national debt before the pandemic, and he claimed that future economic growth would let it do so. “I think you’re going to see tremendous growth, David, and the growth is going to get it done,” Trump said.
https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump

In May 2024, ProPublica won the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for reporting on the billionaires giving gifts to the US Supreme Court's justices and covering their travel expenses. The stories were written by Joshua Kaplan, Justin Elliott, Brett Murphy, Alex Mierjeski and Kirsten Berg

one of 6 ...oddly Fox News has never won a Pulitzer, Emmy, Peabody, or Edward R. Murrow Award for journalism on the merits of its work.

[Dean]

“December 31 2020 the national debt had jumped to 27.75 trillion, up 39%”.

Wow that’s a huge leap!

It’s almost like something massive must of happened around that time…

Maybe a global pandemic that shook the world economy…

I wonder :whistle:

[Kb2020dope]

Hey team.

I do not want anyone to reply this.

What I would like you to do is read this article from mainstream media.

https://www.rt.com/russia/602705-dirty-nuclear-ukraine/

I'm not saying this is right or wrong.

This is what majority of Russians will be reading. Is it possible mainstream media from new zealand or a America are potentially biased?

Once again do not reply to this. Keep an open mind and have a think about how important it is to get both sides of a story.

Thanks team

[husaberg]

“December 31 2020 the national debt had jumped to 27.75 trillion, up 39%”.

Wow that’s a huge leap!

It’s almost like something massive must of happened around that time…

Maybe a global pandemic that shook the world economy…

I wonder :whistle:
Maybe instead of offering your clearly biased ill thought out opinion (without looking that it was clearly pointed out) trump had blown out the deficit, prior to the pandemic.
IE Trump prior had already blown out the deficit in 2019 to $22 trillion and it was increasing every day as he borrowed more and the interest racked up daily.
I am theorising you don't want to consider that, due to it not fitting your attempted troll...plus based on your other posts somewhat limited troll intellect.
Maybe you are too distracted by the then 19 year old in my avatar and imagining "KBdope" as being the chicken

[Berries]

Hey team.

I do not want anyone to reply this.

What I would like you to do is read this article from mainstream media.

https://www.rt.com/russia/602705-dirty-nuclear-ukraine/

I'm not saying this is right or wrong.

This is what majority of Russians will be reading. Is it possible mainstream media from new zealand or a America are potentially biased?

Once again do not reply to this. Keep an open mind and have a think about how important it is to get both sides of a story.

Thanks team
Not read the link as not interested in whatever it was. I cannot change what the Russians are reading so am not interested. I can't change American politics so not really interested in what you and your mate are posting in support of Trump, like the random tax cut shit that suddenly appeared in the thread. I struggle to see how anyone takes Trump seriously buy hey ho, it takes all sorts. That view is based solely on watching him speak, not articles written by him or about him by MSN, Fox, the BBC, Al Jazeera or your RT. What a statesman he truly is when he grabs them by the pussy.

If people cannot see that he is not president or even politician material then I just shake my head and laugh at them. The Apprentice was his obvious ceiling. I watched that for a laugh. Now I just watch all these, well, I can't call them redneck fuckwits because I quite like a lot of American rednecks and would be one if I lived there. Men in dungarees do look kind of cool.

Anyway, my only interest is that people like yourself feel so strongly about this and I find it rather funny. I live in NZ and don't even give a shit about politics here. In the long run it doesn't matter, I have no idea why you get so worked up about it.



I do not want anyone to reply this
Whatever.

[Dean]

So let’s look outside of this thing called the global pandemic:

Trumps presidency from January 2017 to February 2020 - total debt increase of approximately 3.9 trillion over 3 years = annual increase of 1.3 trillion.

And Obama an annual increase of 1.275 trillion.

And Biden an annual increase of 1.23 trillion.

Hey those numbers don’t look awfully different!? 2 & 6% respectively.
God forbid! “Blown out” he reckons.

[Kb2020dope]

Not read the link as not interested in whatever it was. I cannot change what the Russians are reading so am not interested. I can't change American politics so not really interested in what you and your mate are posting in support of Trump, like the random tax cut shit that suddenly appeared in the thread. I struggle to see how anyone takes Trump seriously buy hey ho, it takes all sorts. That view is based solely on watching him speak, not articles written by him or about him by MSN, Fox, the BBC, Al Jazeera or your RT. What a statesman he truly is when he grabs them by the pussy.

If people cannot see that he is not president or even politician material then I just shake my head and laugh at them. The Apprentice was his obvious ceiling. I watched that for a laugh. Now I just watch all these, well, I can't call them redneck fuckwits because I quite like a lot of American rednecks and would be one if I lived there. Men in dungarees do look kind of cool.

Anyway, my only interest is that people like yourself feel so strongly about this and I find it rather funny. I live in NZ and don't even give a shit about politics here. In the long run it doesn't matter, I have no idea why you get so worked up about it.



Whatever.

Buddy,

I am trying to teach you a lesson and you are acting like a new zealand male over the age of 50.

Wow! I am surprised! We have finally agreed on something! Donald trump is not a politician! He is certainly not! He is a businessman! He was won battles in the real world! He hasn't gone from university studying politics and then gone into politics. He has lived and payed tax in the real world! He is out there representing your average hard working person! He hasn't quite adjusted to the 2024 pc bullshit and that is why the majority love him and the media hate him.

Also I was not after a reply from my statement. I wanted you to shut your whore mouth and think. You couldnt do that. K rd, hunters corner, courney pl or Manchester St for you.

Thanks.

[husaberg]

He has lived and payed tax in the real world!
funny show us his records, as he is a convicted Tax fraudster. even as a troll its a bit obvious isn't it?

is out there representing your average hard working person! Hs.
Or Only the ones that started with small loans of 100 Million?
trumps lived off his old mans hard work, he has actually made less than if he put his inheritance in he bank.
Trolls should be clever. Not so obvious. 2/65

[husaberg]

So letÂ’s look outside of this thing called the global pandemic:

Trumps presidency from January 2017 to February 2020 - total debt increase of approximately 3.9 trillion over 3 years = annual increase of 1.3 trillion.

And Obama an annual increase of 1.275 trillion.

And Biden an annual increase of 1.23 trillion.

Hey those numbers donÂ’t look awfully different!? 2 & 6% respectively.
God forbid! “Blown out” he reckons.

Oh cool selective math, I remember yokel/albundy4eva/Austingtr were great fans of that also. I feel however using selective math is somewhat imbecility misleading...
.............................................Debt at start...................................Debt at end ............ increase%.........Total per year .............per year increase %
George W. Bush 2001–2009 ....$5,807,463,412,200.06 ..........$11,909,829,003,511.70 .......105.08%...... $6,102,365,591,311.64 ............13.5%
Barack Obama 2009–2017 ....$11,909,829,003,511.70.............$20,244,900 ,016,053.50 ........69.98% .......$8,335,071,012,541.80 ........8.75%
Donald J. Trump 2017-2021 ...$20,244,900,016,053.50 ..........$28,428,918,570,048.60 ..........40.43% .......$8,184,018,553,995.10 ........10.10%
Joe Biden 2021-2024 .............$28,428,918,570,048.60...........$33, 167,334,044,723.10 .........16.67% .......$4,738,415,474,674.50 ........4.16%

[pritch]

It’s almost like something massive must of happened around that time…

Maybe a global pandemic that shook the world economy…





There was no pandemic in 2017 when Trump told his wealthy guests at Mar A Lardo that because of his tax cut, "You all got a lot richer." Naturally the effect wasn't instantaneous.

In 2020 Trump was busy suggesting people try drinking disinfectant or shove light bulbs up their arse and predicting that the problem would disappear when the weather warmed up. All while a few hundred thousand Americans died unnecessarlly because of his inaction.

[pritch]

Buddy,


Wow! I am surprised! We have finally agreed on something! Donald trump is not a politician! He is certainly not! He is a businessman! He was won battles in the real world! He hasn't gone from university studying politics and then gone into politics. He has lived and payed tax in the real world! He is out there representing your average hard working person! He hasn't quite adjusted to the 2024 pc bullshit and that is why the majority love him and the media hate him.



That is funny - and tragic at the same time. Trump is truly awful as a businessman. I doubt he has ever owned a successful business (other than the skating rink). That he payed tax is a novel concept. Well he did pay tax in China. He payed more tax in China than in the US. He has an extensive list of failed business ventures including casinos.

He lied about getting a small loan of a million dollars which he had to pay back. He was given a million dollars on his eighth birthday. His father left nearly a billion to the family. Trump tried to gain control the whoie amount but his mother said his proposal failed the smell test.

The majority don't love Trump. He is beloved of the hard of thinking.

[onearmedbandit]

Congratulation kb2020dope, you have been the first to receive an infraction after my warning was given. More will be handed out to anyone who either continues to attack other members or takes the thread off topic. I've checked the stockroom and we currently have an excess supply of infractions to hand out so keep that in mind.

[Pursang]

Talking Straight to don-Old ----Love this one! the end is magic.


https://youtu.be/NC1UWEEDV_o?si=6WSeR1BICTiwFf0J

[HenryDorsetCase]

Talking Straight to don-Old ----Love this one! the end is magic.


I enjoyed that greatly. Thanks for posting. I will check out this Lincoln Project now. Cheers

[husaberg]

Here is the letter.
Maybe the Trump supporter here might explain his need to do this?
As Trump and his supporters always claim his right to "free speech" when he lies and spouts total fabrications.
Yet if someone says something that triggers him. He throws the "free speech" stuff out the window and attempts to "gag order" them.....
354895354896354897

[sugilite]

Hey those numbers don’t look awfully different!? 2 & 6% respectively.

Heyya Dean, I'm going to accept your numbers as I have no time to check em. The thing that really grinds my gears about the gop, is when they are not in power, they are all about fiscal responsibility, threatening to shut down the Government seemingly every few months to "cut down wasteful spending" - but the moment they are in power, just like the dems they spend like drunken sailors, and don't get me started on the waste from both teams!
The GOP - when in power have not exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to the deficit. Clinton managed to balance the books and run a surplus though most of his 8 year term and left Bush a tidy 236 billion surplus which bush managed to not only completely burn through but run the country into a deficit in his very first year!!!
https://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/

This idea that somehow the gop is better at managing spending is just a myth, perpetuated by the gop itself.



He has lived and payed tax in the real world!
As against the not real World? Very strange statement there brother Dope.



He is out there representing your average hard working person!
Trump only paid $750 income tax in 2016 and 2017, he paid a lot more than that in several other countries over the same time period. I'm not blaming him for scamming the system when clearly it has so many holes in the USA that rich people like him can escape paying taxes legally. However, painting him as a "man of the people" makes me laugh every time. He gives not one shit about "the people".



He hasn't quite adjusted to the 2024 pc bullshit and that is why the majority love him and the media hate him.
My observations on magas such as yourself through the years comprises of watching them ignore trumps every crime and sin because he "owns the libs" and it gives magas that big dopamine hit.
This phenomena is clearly evidenced by your refusal to comment on trumps video showing in trumps own words to millions of people describing how hot his daughters are and even claiming he would date one if she were not his daughter.
Just in case you missed it, here it is again below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EPEkk6qWkg

[husaberg]

Heyya Dean, I'm going to accept your numbers as I have no time to check em. T

You really shouldn't accept his numbers. He edited out a year yet keep in all of everyone elses.
Trumps increased the national debt by an average of $8,1 trillion a year.
Not Deans average claim of an annual increase of 1.3 trillion.

Trumps made the national debt about about 33% each year than Obama and was 2.5x worse than Biden.
This is despite Obama leaving him a roaring economy and pulling the US out of a GFC

In 2008, Barack Obama to lead the country through the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression
All bush did was bail out some banks he never had to deal with the aftermath.

<iframe width="701" height="394" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ykesLGIi7_Q" title="The Record: President Obama on 8 Years of Economic Progress" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" referrerpolicy="strict-origin-when-cross-origin" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The Great Recession refers to the economic downturn from 2007 to 2009 after the bursting of the U.S. housing bubble and the global financial crisis. The Great Recession was the most severe economic recession in the United States since the Great Depression of the 1930s.
Also being buried in a couple of wars that Bush mk2 created.

Whoever takes over will have an economy ready to have interest rates cut and a economy primed for rapid growth

[Dean]

Heyya Dean, I'm going to accept your numbers as I have no time to check em.

Thanks Suglite, yes unfortunately some of the folk in here cling on to US debt numbers during the global COVID pandemic, under Trumps reign, to support their narrative.

Instead of comparing apples with apples, which professionals would do, (Trumps non-covid annual debt - which is similar to Obama and Biden!).

Some think any other Democrat president would have magically waved a wand and kept debt at a controlled level during COVID.



The GOP - when in power have not exactly covered themselves in glory when it comes to the deficit. Clinton managed to balance the books and run a surplus though most of his 8 year term and left Bush a tidy 236 billion surplus which bush managed to not only completely burn through but run the country into a deficit in his very first year!!!
https://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/


This I don’t agree, you need to ask yourself - what did each president do? What happened in their term? Instead of - hey that number is bigger than that one!

Remember - apples with apples:

Clinton was president during very small scale military aid operations such as:
- Bosnian War 1992-1995
- Kosovo War 1998-1999
- Somalia 1993
- Operation Desert Fox 1998
- Haiti 1994-1995

Military operations and war costs money.

The above operations reflect that Clinton near halved defence spending from 400 billion in 1992 to 296 billion.

Now let’s look at George W Bush:

He launched the greatest military operations since Vietnam.
- War on Afghanistan 2001
- Iraq War 2003
- Global war on terror 2003
- War in North West Pakistan 2004

These engagements directly accounted for 1.155 trillion of the 4.9 trillion increase.

Excluding the interest on borrowed funds, veterans care and other.

In fact, the “costs of war project” from Brown University estimated a holistic 6 trillion debt.

Now let’s talk about the economy.

Recessions or global financial crisis under Clinton:
- 0!

Under George W Bush:
- The dot com bubble recession 2001
- The global financial crisis/house bubble 2007 the greatest economic downturn since the Great Depression

[Dean]

Here’s another way to look at it.

Let’s take it year by year:

Obama
2009 - 1.9 Trillion
2010 - 1.7 Trillion
2011 - 1.2 Trillion
2012 - 1.1 Trillion

Trump
2017 - 0.7 Trillion
2018 - 1.2 Trillion
2019 - 1.2 Trillion
2020 COVID - 4.2 Trillion

Biden
2021 - 1.5 Trillion
2022 - 1.8 Trillion
2023 - 1.7 Trillion
2024 to date - Estimates 2 Trillion

https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/reports-statements/mts/

[husaberg]

how about real figures rather than cherry picked data added up and then reconfigured to suit an agenda
Last time I looked Obama served two terms or 8 years

354898
https://www.investopedia.com/us-debt-by-president-dollar-and-percentage-7371225

#Note Bidens COVID stimulus is valued at 1.9 trillion
# trumps COVID stimulus was 2.2 trillion

[Berries]

Also I was not after a reply from my statement. I wanted you to shut your whore mouth and think. You couldnt do that. K rd, hunters corner, courney pl or Manchester St for you.
Well you do appear to know all the hot spots. Seeing as you are 12 I guess your Mum must have taken you there?

[Dean]

I think you may not like that link you shared.

It states that Trump signed the largest financial rescue package in US history…

And here’s the kicker - direct payment to American families of $1,200 per adult plus $500 per child for households earning up to 75k (middle class).

It would be logical for you, based on your stance, to question why Biden had not provided a greater rescue package for the middle class? Being supposedly all for the middle class?

Particularly as per your perception that Trump was all things bad and Biden’s economy was squeaky clean.

It also states that out of the top 5 in US history, 3 were Democrats!
That’s 60%.

Back to Trump, interesting to see him only a few spots away from Biden.
All whilst weathering the global pandemic which peaked in America during the “first wave” in 2020 and the “winter surge” early 2021.

Quite impressive.

Then setting up Biden with a handsome relief package while COVID affects declined during Biden reign.

In conclusion - nothing you have posted support your statements or views.

Neither do I think you have the capacity to keep up with this level of analysis of data.

Goodbye

[Pursang]

I’m feeling the need to be a little kind and gentle to the MAGAts.

Many of these poor souls have invested over 8 years of their emotional, spiritual and, in many cases, financial resources to this this Entity, one that many of them believe is their Orange Messiah, ordained by God. Some even proclaim him as the 2nd coming of JC, himself.
Families have been destroyed, former friends, workmates, and family members have been ‘outcast’ for being LGBTQIA, RINO, ‘liberal’ (esp. called socialist/communist/fascist, without any logical understanding that these are incompatible philosophies). Black Americans, other colored people, immigrants, aliens, asylum seekers, other religions and the indigenous are all considered inferior in the MAGA state and are not welcome. (Jesus Weeps!)

These pitiful followers have been prepared to overlook all the lies, the crimes, the grifting, even the transgressions against the 10 Commandments, in order to achieve their ‘higher aims’. So far, Restrictions on Women’s reproductive rights and the imposition of the now seemingly ‘not fundamentally important’ Commandments on the walls in some schools is All they got. Billionaires did a lot better with the huge reduction of the top tax rate.

Hannibal Lecter, sharks and batteries are a major focus of former president trump’s addresses. The repeated reminder that he is a/the Snake, is also telling. Calling out the consequences of his unlawful behaviors as ‘unfair’ and as an impediment / interference to his second attempt to be re-elected also feature a lot. Project 2025, the program designed to manage the US transition to an authoritarian state, is currently being denied by trump as something he “knows nothing about”. Denigrating military service while lavishly praising Magamega-donors has taken a higher priority recently.

His purpose for running is to avoid incarceration for his adjudicated (and outstanding) crimes, and if possible, to enact revenge on his many perceived ‘enemies’. Actual policy positions are avoided, to divert public attention from Project 2025.
People can be seen leaving his unfilled venues mid-ramble. Meanwhile he lies, about numbers attending Harris/Walz events, despite overwhelming photographic evidence to disprove his false claims. Questions are now being raised in conservative circles, especially among major donors, not just re: his mental fitness, but if he still has any possibility of winning the presidential election. (Priority noted!) Latest polls indicate that this is increasingly unlikely.

Also a problem, is the lack of funds for ‘downstream’ candidates. After trump’s personal Legal expenses and what appears to be rampant ‘diversion’ to non-PAC accounts, little is left. The ‘project’ will not work if a ‘Blue Blanket’ descends on Congress & the Senate.

So, we must expect some loud denial, foot stamping, acting out, outrageous false claims, even behaviors of the kind seen at Charlottesville and the capital on Jan 6th. 2021. Some concern and attention is required from authorities, because many of his rabid followers are the ‘nutbags’ with the military assault weapons.

[Dean]

IÂ’m feeling the need to be a little kind and gentle

Thats a lot to unpack…

No need to reply to me at 2am - it can wait for the morning!

Trump 2024 MAGA.

[TheDemonLord]

(esp. called socialist/communist/fascist, without any logical understanding that these are incompatible philosophies).

Are they?

Marx quite clearly said that Socialism was a stepping stone to Communism.

And all the founders of Fascism were former Marxists.

China, for example, is a great example of a Fascist regime. It believes itself to be a Communist government and adheres to Marxist Leninism.

Whilst Communism is more of an Economic philosophy and Fascism is more of a Political philosophy - they both believe in a Collectivist narrative (Proletariat vs Bourgeoisie is awfully similar to Aryans vs Jews), they both hate the Jews (A Hammer and Sickle flag is never far away from a Pro-Palestine demonstration), They both believe in Government directed economies (There are subtle differences here, but in practice they are virtually the same), There are some key differences in the belief of ownership of private property - however, the Communists themselves will often retreat that to saying that Private Property is allowed, so long as it is not Bourgeoisie property - that allows the generation of Capital (e.g. wealth).

I could go on - but I will leave with this:

Once you believe in a Collectivist narrative (Us vs Them) - and you run that experiment to its ultimate conclusion - you end up with either Cambodia or Mid-Century Germany - both of which, from a practical point of view, are virtually indistinguishable.

The antidote is an individualist narrative.

[Berries]

Those bloody Communards.

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[Pursang]

That is what your takeaway from that was? So , I can assume the rest is correct?




I could go on - but I will leave with this:

Once you believe in a Collectivist narrative (Us vs Them) - and you run that experiment to its ultimate conclusion - you end up with either Cambodia or Mid-Century Germany - both of which, from a practical point of view, are virtually indistinguishable............

Please explain how MAGA is Not aggressively (Us Vs Them) and their Project 2025 is Not a path to an Authoritarian Kleptocracy!

[sugilite]

This I don’t agree, you need to ask yourself - what did each president do? What happened in their term? Instead of - hey that number is bigger than that one!

Hi dean, I must say this is an odd post.
I simply stated bush inherited a surplus and then burned through it in record time as you yourself then went on to point out.
So with Bush starting the wars thus burning through the cash, how exactly was I wrong?

Fun fact: The Iraq war was illegal, and based on completely false pretenses. But by happy coincidence I'm sure - America ended up with with options on a bunch of oil at a great knock down rates.

[TheDemonLord]

That is what your takeaway from that was? So , I can assume the rest is correct?

You assume incorrectly - I am trying not to argue as much as I used to. However - one of my favorite bugbears is the attempt at the disassociation of Fascism with Marxism.


Please explain how MAGA is Not aggressively (Us Vs Them)

Because the us (in the context of those that are MAGA) is fundamentally an Individualist philosophy - it is opposed to the myriad of Collectivist philosophies (which all, curiously enough, have their roots in Marxism).

The majority of MAGA folks simply want to be left alone to live their lives as they see fit. Case in point - one of the subsets of the MAGA movement could be considered the GamerGate folks - and whilst there is a lot of differences - I am using them to make this comment - the Battle cry of these people was:

We just wanted to play Video Games.

That is to say, they did not want their chosen form of entertainment subverted for a political goal that they did not share.

Or to put it another way: I don't care if you want to make a computer game with Gay/Women/Black/Other characters.

What I do care about is if you want to take over a computer game franchise that I enjoy and completely disregard the existing Lore, Canon, Context etc. and artificially insert those characters making the game worse for it.

And before anyone says it: I like well written Gay/Women/Black/Other characters.


and their Project 2025 is Not a path to a Authoritarian Kleptocracy!

To be clear, I have not read through the entire 900 pages - I have downloaded a copy though.

In terms of the parts I have read - the key takeaway points are:

- Shrinking the size of the Federal Government (that, right there, is a rebuttal to the claim of Authoritarian Kleptocracy).
- limiting the power of, or in some cases disbanding Federal agencies that are acting as the Legislature.
- Ousting Civil servants who are philosophically opposed to the direction that the people have voted for.
- Getting rid of DIE, CRT and other Marxist subversions.
- Preventing *federal* funds from being spent on things that are political issues (such as Abortions).
- Promoting Christian Family values.

There are elements I do not entirely agree with, the advocacy for Christianity for example - especially in the US context where the Federal Government is meant to be religiously neutral.

There are other elements that I think are more wish-list items and unlikely to happen (getting rid of the Department of Education, for example)

There are other elements I quite like - getting rid of people who work in departments and actively subvert what was voted for - and of course getting rid of all the DIE and CRT stuff.

Edit:

Pursang - in the pursuit of fairness - I would like to know what parts of Project 2025 is, in your opinion, a path to a Authoritarian Kleptocracy.

[Dean]

Welcome back TheDemonLord!

Great to have another Trump supporter on here.

And great analysis/posts.

[nerrrd]

Are they?

Marx quite clearly said that Socialism was a stepping stone to Communism.

...

The antidote is an individualist narrative.

I'm not remotely qualified to comment from a political or ideological point of view, but from a pragmatic point of view, working together in a co-operative society seems to me to be central to humanity's survival and is one of the unique qualities that has made our species so 'successful'. It's also a biological imperative to maintain a healthy gene pool.

So while I enjoy being an individual, I get many more benefits from being a citizen of New Zealand than I do from just being me. I'm not sure if co-operation is technically socialism, but if it is, I'm down with it.

[Dean]

Hi dean, I must say this is an odd post.
I simply stated bush inherited a surplus and then burned through it in record time as you yourself then went on to point out.
So with Bush starting the wars thus burning through the cash, how exactly was I wrong?

Fun fact: The Iraq war was illegal, and based on completely false pretenses. But by happy coincidence I'm sure - America ended up with with options on a bunch of oil at a great knock down rates.

Hi,

What I was pointing out was that those said wars would have occurred under a Democrat government regardless.

They were in large a response to the terrible events of 9/11.
And a decision made or supported by multiple people outside of the President (such as but not limited to military generals, advisors and Americans).

So it is unfair to pass judgement on GOP spending when their elected presidents were in office during these circumstances where they had no option but to spend to deliver on desired outcomes.

A better analysis would be to look for both GOP and Democrat presidents operating under similar conditions to make a fair and reasonable comparison.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm not remotely qualified to comment from a political or ideological point of view, but from a pragmatic point of view, working together in a co-operative society seems to me to be central to humanity's survival and is one of the unique qualities that has made our species so 'successful'. It's also a biological imperative to maintain a healthy gene pool.

So while I enjoy being an individual, I get many more benefits from being a citizen of New Zealand than I do from just being me. I'm not sure if co-operation is technically socialism, but if it is, I'm down with it.

Co-Operation is not Socialism.

So - you raise a good point, I entirely agree, voluntary Co-Operation is a wonderful thing. I want something from you, you want something from me - we find a way that we both get what we want.

I would even argue say that the above is the foundation of Capitalism - but that is merely me trying to score points.

If I use the dictionary definition of Socialism (which I am loathe to do - but for the point, it will suffice) - it argues that the means of production should be owned by the community - that is not co-operation, but the equal (or Equitable...) distribution of profits. Not Co-Operation.

[sugilite]

Hi,

What I was pointing out was that those said wars would have occurred under a Democrat government regardless.
But they didn't and the rest is pure speculation on your part. I'm dealing with facts here Dean, not shoulda, woulda, coulda.



A better analysis would be to look for both GOP and Democrat presidents operating under similar conditions to make a fair and reasonable comparison.
One political term has never mirrored another, like - ever.

[sugilite]

Ahhh, I see the immanent arrival of marxism/communism if the dems are elected is front and centre once again.

So in my life time I have seen this warning from maga (formally known as the gop/republicans RIP) since the carter days. Since then we have had 24 years of what must be according to the right, marxism in the USA. Looks a lot to me much like capitalism under maga (formally gop/republicans RIP)

Looking at the countries listed above by tdl that are actually a brand of flavor of marxism/communism, even if severely warped - could it be that the gop are a little confused as to what that even is when applied to their own country? Especially as they are now ardent fans of putin and russia.
I'm sure it is an honest mistake and the right is not fanning the flames of fear in their, well shall we charitably say alternative fact based base.
I mean after 24 years of rampant dems led marxism in the USA, what have they achieved, well other than tampons in some boys school toilets?

Semi related: The far left "progressive" parts of the dems aint got shit this term, just look at US oil production, higher than in the trump years!

As a fun aside, last week trumps advisors set up a table behind him full of food to remind trump to talk about inflation. Did he? No, he just played the greatest grievance hits again, waaaah , wahhhh 2020 election stolen etc, etc. Only at the end did he turn around and address the table full of veges and other foods. This prompted a very impressive response from the former President "Look, cheerios, I've not seen those for years" he then wandered off the stage. Not a man who can follow any sort of good advice from his "advisors" and certainly not anyone that should be running a country :laugh:

[Dean]

But they didn't and the rest is pure speculation on your part. I'm dealing with facts here Dean, not shoulda, woulda, coulda.

Sure, that never happened, because Bush was in office, despite the fact that to engage in an all out war the ultimate power is vested in Congress who operate separate from the president (not a red vs blue thing).

But if were talking about facts then your statement that GOP consistently overspend is false.

The top 3 out of 5 presidents in US history who had the greatest increase in debt while in office were democrats.

Now you could use my argument, which would be sensible to do, that number 1 on the list (Franklin D Roosevelt) was fighting a grand world war which rightfully equates to insane debt.

And based off your argument I could also say that this wouldn’t have happened if a GOP was in office - because that didn’t happen (coulda, woulda)…

Or maybe I could compare every GOP’s financial performance to Franklin? (Because no president is the same…right?).

3rd on the list - Obama.
4th - Ronald Raegan.


One political term has never mirrored another, like - ever.

Agreed, but there a clear and strong indicators of difference such as:

- President A had been in no recessions or economic crisis.
- President B had multiple
= substantial difference

- President A was involved in minor military operations
- President B started full scale large wars
= substantial difference

It doesn’t need to go down to the enth degree in comparison.
Just at a common sense level.

I believe above is a common sense level.

[sugilite]

A wall of text TDL would be proud of
Dean, you are doing it again.
If you go to my earliest post about this, I said both dems and republicans spend and waste money. My ENTIRE point was that it grinds my gears that republicans only "care" about fiscal responcibility when they are not the ones in power. As soon as they have power it is spend, spend, spend away - yes, just like the dems spend, spend, spend.
I'm used to dealing with magas that do the old ignore what I actually say and then write screes of unrelated text based on what I did not say. If you can read my posts with a little more care, you will save a bunch of time in typing.

[TheDemonLord]

Ahhh, I see the immanent arrival of marxism/communism if the dems are elected is front and centre once again.

So in my life time I have seen this warning from maga (formally known as the gop/republicans RIP) since the carter days. Since then we have had 24 years of what must be according to the right, marxism in the USA. Looks a lot to me much like capitalism under maga (formally gop/republicans RIP)

Looking at the countries listed above by tdl that are actually a brand of flavor of marxism/communism, even if severely warped - could it be that the gop are a little confused as to what that even is when applied to their own country? Especially as they are now ardent fans of putin and russia.
I'm sure it is an honest mistake and the right is not fanning the flames of fear in their, well shall we charitably say alternative fact based base.
I mean after 24 years of rampant dems led marxism in the USA, what have they achieved, well other than tampons in some boys school toilets?

What have they achieved - a good question. I am going to give the succinct answer first: Shifting the Needle and undermining social cohesion.

Now for the expanded answer:

Shifting the needle - Remember yonks ago when I talked about being a Centrist with some left-leaning sensibilities - things like Drug legalization, Pro-Choice, Free Speech (yes, this used to be a left-wing virtue) - all your classic Libertarian viewpoints that I hold.

Lets go back to a current Right-wing talking point - the need to secure the border - and I can think of no one better to make the point for me, than that most famous of Right Wing philosophers... Joe Biden:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP7hmnsrb6s

Put aside who it is saying it (for the moment, I am sure you can guess the point I am making) - None of those talking points would appear out of place on a Republican ticket today, yes - More guards, more surveillance.

Yet, in 17 years - An issue that had broad cross-party agreement: The need for a secure border has now become a partisan issue. Whereby one side thinks the other is racist for merely saying people shouldn't come in illegally and conversely that side thinks the other is committing treason by openly advocating for illegal migrants.

We have gone from a position where we both agree on something being a problem, but we cannot agree on how to solve it:

e.g. The bike wont start - I say to check the fuel pump and you say to check the spark plugs

To a position where we cannot even agree on the problem:

I say the bike wont start and the Dems say that the bike is an object of White supremacist colonialism.

This is just one issue. There are a myriad more political issues that I can think of where 20-30 years ago there was a broad agreement at least about the problem, but disagreement on the solution.

FWIW - I dont think America will ever go into a full revolution - that is not the danger of Marxism in the US context that I worry about. Which brings me to the second point:

Social Cohesion.

The late 90s and early 2000s were, IMO probably the peak time for Social Cohesion. You had a Media that was largely neutral (although not referencing the 90s and 2000s - this is an excellent video on the polarization of reporting) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgZPJpdmw3A), You had the birth of the Internet which meant people were able to find kinship in a way that perhaps they weren't able to do previously (instead of being the one weird guy that you knew, suddenly there were groups of other weird people, doing weird people things... and those weird people no longer felt alone or isolated, but got a sense of community) You had tolerance and acceptance of Homosexuality... to a degree, you had the decline of overt racism that was common in the 60s and 70s, you still had the majority of people living in the Nuclear Family.

The late 2000s though - that is when we saw first the rise of the Atheism vs Theism debates, which then morphed into the Feminism debates, which then morphed into Intersectionality debates - and now we have the full plethora of Race, Gender, Sexuality etc. politics on display.

I could go on, at length on all of these - but to make the point I am going to pick on Gender.

Go back 20 years, There was Male and Female. We all knew what that was, as had everybody from every culture for as far back as humanity can be bothered going. Sure we had Cross-dressers, we even had a few trans people - but even those knew what they were, Biologically.

then 10 or so years ago - a claim was made that Sex and Gender was different, but biological sex was still a thing and so someone could be a biological Male, but their Gender was Female - but they are still a biological male.

Now - we have TransWomen are Women and people have been arrested for saying that a Woman is an adult human female.

A fundamental bedrock of society (that we are a sexually dimorphic species) has been undermined and that undermining hurts social cohesion. Societal expectations (and we can argue whether they are good, bad, relics of the past or useful ways to regulate behavior) around gender have been damaged - and this has real world implications - the classic example (in the US) is the ruined thanksgiving dinner by the discussion of Politics.

It used to be that Politics could be discussed as a difference of opinion (see the above about agreeing on the problem, arguing over the solution) but now Politicis is discussed as an extension of Morality - one look at this thread should provide ample evidence of this.

Have they ushered in the Utopia as promised? - Of course not. Have they implemented things like Socialized Healthcare? No.

But have they made society a more divisive place? I put it to you that they demonstrably have and that this is not a good thing.

[TheDemonLord]

A wall of text TDL would be proud of

Mate, I didnt even need to scroll up to read the whole thing.

In my holiday, I think you have forgotten what a true Wall o' Text is.

[sugilite]

Mate, I didnt even need to scroll up to read the whole thing.

In my holiday, I think you have forgotten what a true Wall o' Text is.

Ill quote this one for others sanity. But pop in your ending from your earlier post for context below. Yes indeed, thank you for reminding us what a true wall of text is, and I can see areas where you were even holding back :laugh:


Have they ushered in the Utopia as promised? - Of course not. Have they implemented things like Socialized Healthcare? No.

But have they made society a more divisive place? I put it to you that they demonstrably have and that this is not a good thing.

Mate, each side shows off their visions of a shiny utopia which somehow never comes to fruition. As you know very well, much of trumps brand is based on division. So for you to be speaking like only of the left are doing it is actually not even being on thin ice, as in fact it is deep, deep water. So unless your name is Jesus, or you wear scuba gear as your daily attire - I highly recommend you not go there! Unless if course you are wanting an avalanche of youtube videos showing the right wing separatists doing their worst?. :sweatdrop

Lets do a good old sugilite analogy shall we? (like you have a choice? :laugh:)
In the marxist corner (you pick the country that runs the closest version of actual marxism) we have their best cake, it is a joyless vegan, gluten free xmas cake made from the driest shitty ingredients possible, so not a cake for their leadership, but rather their people.

Now we have a cake made in good ole U.S.A., a spectacular capitalist heart attack inducing rich multilayered chocolate cake, oozing with cream and adorned with the finest icing available. A cake that is available for everyone - hurrah!

Now in the large scheme of things, I put it to you that if you were to compare the republican cake, and the dems version of the same cake, there would be little difference other than one has red sprinkles on it, and the other blue sprinkles - if it is a birthday cake, the dems candles may be made from tampons.
However, in no way would the dems cake share any meaningful likeness to the poor old dry unappealing marxist cake from an ACTUAL marxist regime.

Now if you don't mind I'm off to buy me a cake, for some reason I'm getting hungry for one, I will however forgo the dems bday candles :bleh:

[Dean]

Dean, you are doing it again.
If you go to my earliest post about this, I said both dems and republicans spend and waste money.

My mistake, I agree on this.

As for some GOP that only care about fiscal responsibility when not in power - I haven’t done my research on that, but I trust you, under grounds of good character, that it is true.

[sugilite]

Not trump, but free speech pops up often in this thread. I've said often that it is a sad indictment that some of the most balanced accurate reporting comes from comedians, but here is a video showing comedian Rowen Atkinson talking about free speech. Just ignore the irony that it has been posted by what I assume is a right wing leaning person trying to make out that Rowan only just said it, as it looks to have been filmed in the obama days. However, still very, very relevant today!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHyPRnrLnzA&list=WL&index=2&pp=gAQBiAQB

[TheDemonLord]

Ill quote this one for others sanity. But pop in your ending from your earlier post for context below. Yes indeed, thank you for reminding us what a true wall of text is, and I can see areas where you were even holding back :laugh:

Yes, the irony was not lost on me - and the fact you noticed my restraint made me smile.


Mate, each side shows off their visions of a shiny utopia which somehow never comes to fruition. As you know very well, much of trumps brand is based on division. So for you to be speaking like only of the left are doing it is actually not even being on thin ice, as in fact it is deep, deep water. So unless your name is Jesus, or you wear scuba gear as your daily attire - I highly recommend you not go there! Unless if course you are wanting an avalanche of youtube videos showing the right wing separatists doing their worst?. :sweatdrop

Trump is a reaction to the modern Left. Same with what is happening in Europe, Even England that elected Sir Keir Starmer in a supposed landslide... with 20 percent of the vote.

In many places the modern left is facing pushback from, ironically, a lot of the working-class types.

And no need to worry about the Right Wing separatist types, I know them and will talk about them in a mo.

I think I posted previously in this thread about the study of the shift in policy over time and how the Republicans have remained fairly stable (lower taxes, smaller government, strong military, law, order, borders etc.) with some interesting fissures (The Warhawk Republicans vs the isolationist Republicans for example) - I could take most of the the current Republican platform in terms of Policy, drop it into the Republican party of 2000s or the 1990s or the 1980s and it would not look out of place.

However, on the Left, there has been a noticeable shift. Some off the top of my head examples:

- Free Speech, used to be a virtue championed primarily by the Left, now they champion the concept of Hatespeech.
- Abortion, used to be Safe, Legal and Rare was the slogan (one I agree with), now it is Abortion is Healthcare (a statement I find repulsive)
- The Border - see the quote I used for Joe Biden compared to Joe Biden now.
- The God Emperor himself Donald J Trump - A Registered Democrat until 2009 - now he is considered Far-Right.

The separatists have looked at where the Left is going and gone:

Fuck this, we are out.

I do not deny their existence - but again, I put it to you that they are a reaction to the excesses of the modern Left.


Lets do a good old sugilite analogy shall we? (like you have a choice? :laugh:)
In the marxist corner (you pick the country that runs the closest version of actual marxism) we have their best cake, it is a joyless vegan, gluten free xmas cake made from the driest shitty ingredients possible, so not a cake for their leadership, but rather their people.

Now we have a cake made in good ole U.S.A., a spectacular capitalist heart attack inducing rich multilayered chocolate cake, oozing with cream and adorned with the finest icing available. A cake that is available for everyone - hurrah!

Now in the large scheme of things, I put it to you that if you were to compare the republican cake, and the dems version of the same cake, there would be little difference other than one has red sprinkles on it, and the other blue sprinkles - if it is a birthday cake, the dems candles may be made from tampons.
However, in no way would the dems cake share any meaningful likeness to the poor old dry unappealing marxist cake from an ACTUAL marxist regime.

Now if you don't mind I'm off to buy me a cake, for some reason I'm getting hungry for one, I will however forgo the dems candles :bleh:

Which Democrats though.

There are some who I would absolutely agree with your analogy.

But allow me to raise the likes of AOC (yeah, low hanging fruit - but she is an elected Congresswoman) - firstly she is a member of the Democratic Socialists (they do love their contradicting names) - however secondly, and I quote:


To me, capitalism is irredeemable,

I mean - that is pretty clear cut as a direct quote.

Then there are the numerous members of the so-called progressive wing of the DNC - Pro-Palestine, Defund the Police, Green new deal etc. etc.

I put it to you that if that faction of the DNC got their way, then using your analogy - it would absolutely be a joyless vegan cake.

Now - for the sake of fairness, let me pick the most extreme person I can think of on the Republican side - Magic The Gathering - what would America look like if all of her most extreme positions came true - well it would be a Christian Christmas cake, with a Gun on the side, no FBI, no foreign aid, no illegal migrants etc....

But still a cake.

[sugilite]

Trump is a reaction to the modern Left.
A massive over correction in my opinion, but I take your point.

As for policies, does maga have any? Today Trump was asked today what was his policy going to be for inflation? His response "vote for me, I will fix it". You are living in the days when the GOP existed, same goes for their policy statements. In case you missed it, the republican partys coffin was lowered into the grave when trump took over the RNC. You can type a shogun part two sized post and you will not shift my needle on this.

If trump wins, and lets face it, for the last month he has been doing his best to lose it - actual policy will only be known once the secretive project 25 mob come out of the shadow of secrecy and start administering it while trump is on the golf course 12 hours a day. The people deserve to know what policy a party is going to implement BEFORE the election. Anyone voting for trump will be in the dark more than those voting for Harris. Trumps policy for replacing obamacare - It will be a big beautiful plan - that's it. what a fucking joke, but that is the low bar the maga movement has settled for because trump owns the libs Weeeeeeeeeeeee :rolleyes:



- Free Speech, used to be a virtue championed primarily by the Left, now they champion the concept of Hatespeech.
- Abortion, used to be Safe, Legal and Rare was the slogan (one I agree with), now it is Abortion is Healthcare (a statement I find repulsive)
- The Border - see the quote I used for Joe Biden compared to Joe Biden now.
- The God Emperor himself Donald J Trump - A Registered Democrat until 2009 - now he is considered Far-Right.


Can show you plenty of maga mob expounding free speech for me but not for thee.
I can see how it comes under healthcare, unless you are going to see a murky type with a coat hanger in a dark alley, however I noticed how both sides can talk about this subject for seemingly hours without mentioning the word "abortion" once. woman are still very pissed, and with maga mob having ivf in their sights, it is not an election winner for them.
The right lost credibility on the border when they killed a by-partisan bill that would of had the strictest ever border measures ever. While I agree that yes, trump was better at border policy in the past, he fucked that by killing the latest bill because he wanted it as an election hammer. Yet another demonstration why he should not be let near the presidency ever again.
Trump is for Trump, always has been and always will be. He is a grade "A" bucket of orange vomit, though that is being unkind towards buckets of actual orange vomit.



I put it to you that if that faction of the DNC got their way, then using your analogy - it would absolutely be a joyless vegan cake.

Now - for the sake of fairness, let me pick the most extreme person I can think of on the Republican side - Magic The Gathering - what would America look like if all of her most extreme positions came true - well it would be a Christian Christmas cake, with a Gun on the side, no FBI, no foreign aid, no illegal migrants etc....
And no elections, for sure authoritarian, it is her dream. While you are correct on your AOC scenario, as I mentioned, the extreme left has been well suppressed by their leadership, thank god! But over on the right, the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

While you are correct, if AOC took over, I have no doubt that the cake would be leaning way left into the joyless zone, but while we are talking horrific scenarios, I invite you to imagine if you have the stomach strength for it - a President Hillary Clinton, and Vice President AOC and secretary of state Omar. They somehow won the election in 2028, the corrupt supreme court has already ordained a no worries on committing any crimes they deem in the name of the presidency. Right wing bodies start falling out of high rise building windows like confetti at a rich Indian wedding, so many it even has putin blushing. Now think of this wrecking crew with the powers that the maga mob had put in place the cycle before having got schedule F through and the now actual marxists party has put in their own hand picked stooges throughout all of government.
Feel comfortable with schedule F and free crimes for presidents now?
Be careful what you wish for good sir.

[TheDemonLord]

A massive over correction in my opinion, but I take your point.

Agree to Disagree.


As for policies, does maga have any? Today Trump was asked today what was his policy going to be for inflation? His response "vote for me, I will fix it". You are living in the days when the GOP existed, same goes for their policy statements. In case you missed it, the republican partys coffin was lowered into the grave when trump took over the RNC. You can type a shogun part two sized post and you will not shift my needle on this.

Reduce Federal bureaucracy.
Energy Independence.
Reduce government spending on BS (which is what will address inflation)
Deregulation etc.



If trump wins, and lets face it, for the last month he has been doing his best to lose it - actual policy will only be known once the secretive project 25 mob come out of the shadow of secrecy and start administering it while trump is on the golf course 12 hours a day. The people deserve to know what policy a party is going to implement BEFORE the election. Anyone voting for trump will be in the dark more than those voting for Harris. Trumps policy for replacing obamacare - It will be a big beautiful plan - that's it. what a fucking joke, but that is the low bar the maga movement has settled for because trump owns the libs Weeeeeeeeeeeee :rolleyes:

It is hard to claim secrecy - when they have published the document in all its 900 page glory.




Can show you plenty of maga mob expounding free speech for me but not for thee.

Sure - however - I am willing to bet there is some context in those clips - that it is in response to certain groups. Maintaining a principle that advantages your opponent when they will absolutely not grant you the same courtesy is a tough sell. Allowing a group a freedom that allows them to subvert your position that they would not grant in return is difficult.

There are days when it is tempting.


I can see how it comes under healthcare, unless you are going to see a murky type with a coat hanger in a dark alley, however I noticed how both sides can talk about this subject for seemingly hours without mentioning the word "abortion" once. woman are still very pissed, and with maga mob having ivf in their sights, it is not an election winner for them.

But it is not healthcare, is it? Medical procedure? Sure. But it is not healthcare. However, this is beside the point - which is to show the drift of position - from one that a self-avowed right winger is happy with, to one that is repugnant.


The right lost credibility on the border when they killed a by-partisan bill that would of had the strictest ever border measures ever. While I agree that yes, trump was better at border policy in the past, he fucked that by killing the latest bill because he wanted it as an election hammer. Yet another demonstration why he should not be let near the presidency ever again.

I have heard different versions of this - namely that tacked onto the bill was a whole bunch of other stuff that was not to do with the border. But again - I want to reframe the point - 17 years ago, the Left was talking about the Border like any rational politician would, now the Left wants to abolish border controls


Trump is for Trump, always has been and always will be. He is a grade "A" bucket of orange vomit, though that is being unkind towards buckets of actual orange vomit.

No one thought that until 2015. When he announced his run for Presidency. Remember how I asked you for all the reasons you hated Trump and all the claims from yourself and others could all be traced to hit-pieces written after he announced his candidacy.


And no elections, for sure authoritarian, it is her dream. While you are correct on your AOC scenario, as I mentioned, the extreme left has been well suppressed by their leadership, thank god! But over on the right, the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Have they been Suppressed - again - look at the shift in Policy - We have gone from Law and Order to Defund the Police. Freedom of Speech to Hatespeech. Borders need to be secure to abolish ICE.

And these are mainstream democrat policy positions.

The shift left of the Democrats over the last 20 years or so has been massive. Further examples - Joe Rogan - a Self-confessed Bernie Bro who believes in UBI (Universal Basic Income) - is considered Far Right. Russel Brand who is a practically a Socialist is condemned as Far Right.


While you are correct, if AOC took over, I have no doubt that the cake would be leaning way left into the joyless zone, but while we are talking horrific scenarios

Thus my point: There is a radical faction of the Democrats that is pushing them further and further Left - and whilst there are certainly some in the party that are more of the, shall we say, Managerial persuasion (Neither left or right per se, but believe they know what is best for people and so need power to rule) - they are happy to sleep next to the radical element - because ultimately they both believe in power.


I invite you to imagine if you have the stomach strength for it - a President Hillary Clinton, and Vice President AOC and secretary of state Omar. They somehow won the election in 2028, the corrupt supreme court has already ordained a no worries on committing any crimes they deem in the name of the presidency. Right wing bodies start falling out of high rise building windows like confetti at a rich Indian wedding, so many it even has putin blushing. Now think of this wrecking crew with the powers that the maga mob had put in place the cycle before having got schedule F through and the now actual marxists party has put in their own hand picked stooges throughout all of government.
Feel comfortable with schedule F and free crimes for presidents now?
Be careful what you wish for good sir.

I have seen many a left-wing commentator make this argument or variations of it (the most popular being that they could send the SEALs in to assassinate people - completely ignoring Posse comitatus).

The ruling is for official acts.

Now, the legislation and precedent around this is hazy - I will grant you - but let us use an example from history:

The Louisiana Purchase - done by Jefferson, with authority he did not have. There was a lot of debate at the time (and amongst subsequent historians) around this - and the general consensus is that what Jefferson did was right and correct - but that he did not have the legal authority to do what he did. E.g. what he did was illegal.

This is a type of action where the President would have immunity for something done in an official capacity.

Another example - Obama and Bush and their foreign wars and drone strikes - I include them together so as to make the argument bi-partisan. Both have been accused as War Criminals - both are immune from prosecution because these are official acts, taken as President.

Despite all the wailing and gnashing of teeth - this is inline with other legal theories - such as Qualified Immunity for Police.

[Pursang]

https://files.mastodon.online/media_attachments/files/112/979/030/939/540/706/original/4c95c69b197adb78.png

[Pursang]

Pursang - in the pursuit of fairness - I would like to know what parts of Project 2025 is, in your opinion, a path to a Authoritarian Kleptocracy.

Integrating federal agencies (inc FBI, DOJ, DOC, FCC, HSS, etc, etc.) under the Direct Control of the Executive branch (President/King) This is 'Unitary Executive Theory' into Practice.
All designed to undermine the independent rule of law, separation of powers, separation of church and state, and civil liberties, etc ,etc.

You would think that persons truly concerned with their 'personal independence' would find this extremely disconcerting.

[TheDemonLord]

Integrating federal agencies (inc FBI, DOJ, DOC, FCC, HSS, etc, etc.) under the Direct Control of the Executive branch (President/King) This is 'Unitary Executive Theory' into Practice.
All designed to undermine the independent rule of law, separation of powers, separation of church and state, and civil liberties, etc ,etc.

You would think that persons truly concerned with their 'personal independence' would find this extremely disconcerting.

Are those entities the Judiciary or the Legislature?

Or are they branches of the Executive and therefore come under the auspices of the President (as head of the Executive)?

This is textbook separation of powers. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the reason that a lot of the Alphabet Agencies are in the crosshairs is precisely because they have been acting as their own Legislature, Judiciary and Executive, in violation of the concept of separation of powers.

That is - they have been making law without the passing of acts by Congress or the Senate, they have been re-interpreting the law as they see fit and then enforcing that law.

Case in point - the Pistol brace ban (there are other notable instances).

On the Civil Liberties front - the system is designed to function much the same as it always has:

The Executive tries to do something not supported in Law (the Legislature) or Precedent (the Judiciary) - Legal challenges are filed:

If it is something that the People have voted for (e.g. they have enough representation in Congress and the Senate) - then Legislation is written to make whatever it is legal.

If it is something new, but similar to other majority judicial opinions - then precedent is set.

If it is not something that the People have voted for - then Congress and the Senate can write legislation expressly forbidding it.

If it is something not in-line with Judicial opinion - then ultimately the supreme court will strike it down as unconstitutional.

FWIW - as an aside - half of the issues here have been because the very roadblocks in the US governmental system put in place by the founding fathers to prevent authoritarian from taking hold were stopping 'progress' from happening and so the various agencies decided to become their own little fiefdom.

That all said - there is one thing conspicuous by its absence - even if I take everything you say at face value - the claim was authoritarian kleptocracy - the President having greater control over the executive does not prove that.

And in the American context - as they are want to say - the Second Amendment protects all the others.

[Kickaha]

We have gone from Law and Order to Defund the Police.

Defunding the police is all about Law and Order, It's just approaching it from a different angle

[TheDemonLord]

Defunding the police is all about Law and Order, It's just approaching it from a different angle

I know what you mean - but I gotta ask:

How'd that all work out?

That is without expanding on the second point which is that certain people view the police and judiciary as systemically corrupt racist institutions and want to get rid of them completely, so that this can fuel divisions in society that will ultimately lead to the proletariat rising up...

It is not about Law and Order and never was. It was always about undermining western civilization.

[pritch]

I enjoyed that greatly. Thanks for posting. I will check out this Lincoln Project now. Cheers



For some years they have been the most effective opposition to Trump. Their ads can be brilliant. I listen to Wilson regularly.

Wilson, Conway, and the others are Republicans though and when Trump is finally gone some Democrats are in for a shock.

[pete376403]

Such an honest candidate...
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/525631/donald-trump-posts-image-of-fake-taylor-swift-endorsement

[sugilite]

I know what you mean - but I gotta ask:

How'd that all work out?
I know how the opposite worked out when in the 90's when after successive governments had underfunded mental health and many of the psychiatric hospitals were shuttered due to building decay. The government of the day (cannot remember which flavor it was) simply cast most of the patients out onto the streets and the police suddenly became mental health providers. It was a disaster then, and still is to quite some degree now. I lived in Porirua in those days and saw the carnage first hand.

To spout "the left want to defund the police" and leave the statement at that is disingenuous. Right up there with the right saying in the states that the dastardly dems support abortion right up to and even after birth - which is absurd as at that point by law it is considered murder/infanticide.
Ultimately, Yes left "some" wing radicals want to defund the police in the manner which you are suggesting, however they are a very small minority.

I'm far from convinced that presenting right (or left) wing talking points as gospel translates to a stable position from which to make compelling arguments.

Got plenty to say about your other post to me, just trying to work out a format to do so without driving other forum members around the twist because of our walls of quoted text.
We should probably at least attempt to only discuss one point at a time lest we be run out of dodge for creating mental instability among those not so keen on our brand of discourse :msn-wink:

[TheDemonLord]

I know how the opposite worked out when in the 90's when after successive governments had underfunded mental health and many of the psychiatric hospitals were shuttered due to building decay. The government of the day (cannot remember which flavor it was) simply cast most of the patients out onto the streets and the police suddenly became mental health providers. It was a disaster then, and still is to quite some degree now. I lived in Porirua in those days and saw the carnage first hand.

So - on this point, no argument from me. Mental Health facilities are inadequate. The Police are not Mental Health providers.

And yes, both in NZ and the USA it was the right wing that axed the Mental Institutions.


To spout "the left want to defund the police" and leave the statement at that is disingenuous.

Okay - it is a fair critique to a point. So let me expand - there are some people who advocate for "defund the police" who genuinely believe that funds spent on enforcement would have better mileage being spent on preventative programs. And that is a sentiment I think has a degree of merit.

I would much rather spend my Tax Dollars on something that prevented a kid committing a crime and earning a criminal record than I would the extra officers to arrest them and having that stigma for life.

However... If you want to explore the nuance of it, there are additional points that need to be made:

The efficacy of the programs that were supposedly to replace the Police were of a dubious nature.
The communities where these experiments were being run were historically under-policed, and so defunding the police lead to them being even more under-policed.
And my original point that there is a group, who loudly believe in the defund part because of their philosophical outlook on life: A Law is by definition, exclusionary. There is something you can or something you cannot do. It creates a division. And we cannot live in our perfect utopia if there is a means by which people are different.

And it is the latter group who use the trojan horse of community outreach programs to breach the walls of Troy.


Right up there with the right saying in the states that the dastardly dems support abortion right up to and even after birth - which is absurd as at that point by law it is considered murder/infanticide.

Two points here - firstly, I have seen and heard Left-wing activist types (almost entirely women) saying that they would support Abortion up to Birth (and in some cases, beyond) - now, to be fair - most of these clips were in the context of informal debate, so I am taking them with a little grain of salt as I am not sure in *most* cases they genuinely believe that, more that they were backed into a corner and so agreed with the inference in order to not loose face.

Secondly is the infamous quote by one: Democratic Gov. Ralph Northam.

Even when taking in context and even allowing him grace in that he is talking about fringe scenarios that are difficult - what he said:


[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus that’s nonviable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen, The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.

That still sounds horrific to me.


Ultimately, Yes left "some" wing radicals want to defund the police in the manner which you are suggesting, however they are a very small minority.

They are the tail that wags the dog though.


I'm far from convinced that presenting right (or left) wing talking points as gospel translates to a stable position from which to make compelling arguments.

Got plenty to say about your other post to me, just trying to work out a format to do so without driving other forum members around the twist because of our walls of quoted text.
We should probably at least attempt to only discuss one point at a time lest we be run out of dodge for creating mental instability among those not so keen on our brand of discourse :msn-wink:

I wont be down your ways for a while, but sounds like it would be a great opportunity to do it over a pint, in front of a fire.

[sugilite]

Agree to Disagree.
For the sake of shortness of reply, anything I don't comment on you can assume that point has become an "agree to disagree".


Reduce Federal bureaucracy.
Energy Independence.
Reduce government spending on BS (which is what will address inflation)
Deregulation etc.

I'm yet to see trump talking with any kind of ,meaningful depth about any of these policies.
In my time of observing politics here and the USA - I consider the gold standard of articulating policy to be David Seymour. You are never left wondering what the policy is and how and when it will be implemented. While I do not agree with many of his policies, I do acknowledge his articulation of said policy is top draw stuff.
So, with Seymour being a 10 out of 10 for policy articulation, where do you place trump on that scale?
I give trump a 1 out of 10. He only gets the "1" for occasionally mentioning the title of a policy.


It is hard to claim secrecy - when they have published the document in all its 900 page glory.
I'm not naive enough to believe that they have published every unpalatable policy they will seek to bring in - are you?



Sure - however - I am willing to bet there is some context in those clips - that it is in response to certain groups.
Simone Biles saying she "loved her black job". Had many fox contributors and commenters losing their heads and saying (the polite version) she should not wade into politics and only comment on gymnastics. And all she was doing was showing support for trump by quoting him :bleh:
There are PLENTY of other instances out there where right wingers suddenly find free speech inconvenient. I see trump trolled taylor swift last night posting up an ai photo on truth social of her supposed supporters wearing swifties for trump t shirts and trump "accepting" their endorsement. If I were Swift, I would make an endorsement (as is her first amendment right) the night before the actual election date. Fuck trump lol.



I have heard different versions of this - namely that tacked onto the bill was a whole bunch of other stuff that was not to do with the border. But again - I want to reframe the point - 17 years ago, the Left was talking about the Border like any rational politician would, now the Left wants to abolish border controls
Initially the left tried attaching Ukraine money to it, but then put it through separately. The maga mob then under trumps prompting refused to put the stand aslone version of it through to the senate. The rest of what you say (17 years ago etc) is moot because it was the strongest border proposal ever put forward in the history of the usa.


No one thought that until 2015. When he announced his run for Presidency. Remember how I asked you for all the reasons you hated Trump and all the claims from yourself and others could all be traced to hit-pieces written after he announced his candidacy.
And I told you at the time that i formed my opinions on the lying piece of shits own words from videos. I already thought he was a dickhead from his apprentice days, though a entertaining dickhead, i prob watched at least 10 episodes of it.


Joe Rogan - a Self-confessed Bernie Bro who believes in UBI (Universal Basic Income) - is considered Far Right. Russel Brand who is a practically a Socialist is condemned as Far Right.
Funny you bring up rogan, as trump dissed him big time last week when he dared to say he would vote RFK. Your guy is a proper cry baby eh, wahhhhh, waaaahhhhhh waaaaaahhhhhhhh :rolleyes:



Thus my point: There is a radical faction of the Democrats that is pushing them further and further Left - and whilst there are certainly some in the party that are more of the, shall we say, Managerial persuasion (Neither left or right per se, but believe they know what is best for people and so need power to rule) - they are happy to sleep next to the radical element - because ultimately they both believe in power.
Cuts both ways sport, as you well know both sides have to live with their radicals, and the left right now, waaaaaaaay better than the right at controlling them. For example - the maga mob in the house have shown for the last 2 years is they cannot work together and sure as shit cannot pass laws, you know - their job! Marge is now trying to remove their latest speaker lol


I have seen many a left-wing commentator make this argument or variations of it (the most popular being that they could send the SEALs in to assassinate people - completely ignoring Posse comitatus).

The ruling is for official acts.

Now, the legislation and precedent around this is hazy - I will grant you -
Your history lesson past this point are also moot as hazy is exactly what this corrupted supreme court was going for.
If they have shown anything over the last two years, this supreme court will cheerfully pop past presidents into the trash in aid of their convicted criminal mate and corporate masters.

[pete376403]

Quote "Even when taking in context and even allowing him grace in that he is talking about fringe scenarios that are difficult - what he said:

[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus that’s nonviable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen, The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.
That still sounds horrific to me."

replying to this as such an event happened in a family known to me - two older (approaching 50's) parents; the mother was informed her foetus was severely brain damaged and would never live without constant care. She (the husband apparently had no say in the matter) insisted that the child would be delivered alive. And it was, having a condition known as "smooth brain" (Lissencephaly) After the initial rush of "my precious baby will be loved and cherished forever", she got rather tired of the constant care and attention and decided to go off to be an artist. The child has been dumped back into the health system and kept alive at rather considerable expense, even though it will never be anything. It makes random noises, eats and shits. What is the benefit to anyone, including that child? DL - can I put your name forward as a possible caregiver?

[TheDemonLord]

I'm yet to see trump talking with any kind of ,meaningful depth about any of these policies.
In my time of observing politics here and the USA - I consider the gold standard of articulating policy to be David Seymour. You are never left wondering what the policy is and how and when it will be implemented. While I do not agree with many of his policies, I do acknowledge his articulation of said policy is top draw stuff.
So, with Seymour being a 10 out of 10 for policy articulation, where do you place trump on that scale?
I give trump a 1 out of 10. He only gets the "1" for occasionally mentioning the title of a policy.

Trying to butter me up with Seymour - nice try ;)

I will answer your question in the form of a Military Joke:

A New Lieutenant is being interviewed about what it means to command. In the interview panel, the lieutenant is asked how he would raise the flag pole on the parade square.

The Lieutenant pauses for a moment, before confidently answering about where the flag pole is stored, the hinge, the flag pin, the rope he would use etc. etc.

After he finishes, he waits for the board to accept his answer. To his disappointment, the board unanimously says that is the wrong answer. Confused, the Lieutenant asks the Colonel on the board how he should have answered it.

The Colonel pauses, buzzes the door and calls in the Sargeant.

‘Sergeant, get that pole raised, I’ll check back in with you later‘

Trump is very much this style of leader (in my opinion) - he dictates where he wants to go, then lets his staff work out how to get there. Whereas Seymour is an Engineer and so outlines each variable and how it will be accounted for.

I like both.


I'm not naive enough to believe that they have published every unpalatable policy they will seek to bring in - are you?

Okay - let me indulge a little - I am... Infamous... shall we say for my tirades against Marxism and all its derivative ideas - and often point out that for certain groups, this is their ulterior motive.

If we take the Project 2025 and use my same end-goal analysis: What does it look like - A Christian country, laws designed to encourage the nuclear family.

Could be a whole lot worse - so I invite you, let your imagination run as wild as mine is said to - what are these unpalatable policies and what does the country look like?


Simone Biles saying she "loved her black job". Had many fox contributors and commenters losing their heads and saying (the polite version) she should not wade into politics and only comment on gymnastics. And all she was doing was showing support for trump by quoting him :bleh:
There are PLENTY of other instances out there where right wingers suddenly find free speech inconvenient. I see trump trolled taylor swift last night posting up an ai photo on truth social of her supposed supporters wearing swifties for trump t shirts and trump "accepting" their endorsement. If I were Swift, I would make an endorsement (as is her first amendment right) the night before the actual election date. Fuck trump lol.

Even if I accept your instances - I put it to you that it is a reaction to the cancelling and hate speech that is done by the Left. And again - the point was - I remember when the ACLU had a Jewish lawyer defend a Neo Nazis right to parade - on principle. That was what the Left used to be about when it came to Free Speech.

Would the Left of today do such a thing?


Initially the left tried attaching Ukraine money to it, but then put it through separately. The maga mob then under trumps prompting refused to put the stand aslone version of it through to the senate. The rest of what you say (17 years ago etc) is moot because it was the strongest border proposal ever put forward in the history of the usa.

Ah, so initially it was a poisoned chalice and then subsequent drinks orders were refused... When that context is added, not quite so clear cut. I wouldn't trust them either. Furthermore - if I were to believe the Democrats were serious on the Border, the expectation would be they would be doing everything they could within the current laws - and curiously enough... I don't see that happening.



And I told you at the time that i formed my opinions on the lying piece of shits own words from videos. I already thought he was a dickhead from his apprentice days, though a entertaining dickhead, i prob watched at least 10 episodes of it.

I am sure if I spent enough time I could dig up the actual quote - it is somewhere in the 400+ pages of discussion. My Memory is that one of your points was about not paying his contractors - which was what I tracked down. I like the man, you don't.


Funny you bring up rogan, as trump dissed him big time last week when he dared to say he would vote RFK. Your guy is a proper cry baby eh, wahhhhh, waaaahhhhhh waaaaaahhhhhhhh :rolleyes:

But the point is, again, Rogan who is objectively Centre Left - is referred to as Far Right. Just another example of how far the left has shifted.


Cuts both ways sport, as you well know both sides have to live with their radicals, and the left right now, waaaaaaaay better than the right at controlling them. For example - the maga mob in the house have shown for the last 2 years is they cannot work together and sure as shit cannot pass laws, you know - their job! Marge is now trying to remove their latest speaker lol

Yes... Communists have always been better at quelling dissention in the ranks ;)



Your history lesson past this point are also moot as hazy is exactly what this corrupted supreme court was going for.
If they have shown anything over the last two years, this supreme court will cheerfully pop past presidents into the trash in aid of their convicted criminal mate and corporate masters.

Gotta disagree here. IMO this Supreme Court have done a lot to overturn bad precedents set by bad judgements. Roe is the obvious example - but even RBG who defended Roe from a pragmatic view (she supported the right to abortion) was heavily critical of the judicial reasoning that underpinned Roe. Reasoning that IMO was rightfully overturned despite being Pro-Choice myself.

If there is a specific decision that you disagree with - I will happily read up - but all the major ones (Dobbs, Immunity etc.) are consistent with historical and textual precedents.

[TheDemonLord]

Quote "Even when taking in context and even allowing him grace in that he is talking about fringe scenarios that are difficult - what he said:

[Third trimester abortions are] done in cases where there may be severe deformities. There may be a fetus that’s nonviable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen, The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.
That still sounds horrific to me."

replying to this as such an event happened in a family known to me - two older (approaching 50's) parents; the mother was informed her foetus was severely brain damaged and would never live without constant care. She (the husband apparently had no say in the matter) insisted that the child would be delivered alive. And it was, having a condition known as "smooth brain" (Lissencephaly) After the initial rush of "my precious baby will be loved and cherished forever", she got rather tired of the constant care and attention and decided to go off to be an artist. The child has been dumped back into the health system and kept alive at rather considerable expense, even though it will never be anything. It makes random noises, eats and shits. What is the benefit to anyone, including that child? DL - can I put your name forward as a possible caregiver?

Sure - on one condition:

Can I put your name forward as the person to swing the blade?

Point scoring aside - let us entertain a hypothetical - let us say there are people that will never be self-sufficient, will always be a drain on societies resources - do we have a moral right to kill them whether by direct action (as above) or by inaction (neglecting them till they die) - certainly there have been societies historically that have done that. Certainly one can make a economic, mental health (as in your friends) and all manner of arguments - Is that a society you want to live in?

I don't.

But let us go one step further - lets say we both agree that in some circumstances this might be acceptable - where do you draw the line? What conditions are acceptable for euthanasia? It feels like we are verging awfully close to eugenics territory (and I don't mean you support it) - and that gives me the heebees.

And so as a matter of principle - I say that the slope on the other side of this issue is long and slippery - but I pay the tax burden of keeping that individual alive because the alternative is far more terrifying.

[sugilite]

They are the tail that wags the dog though.
Holy shit man, the maga tail has shaken the dog so much, the only remaining part of said dog left is an old arse hole and a bunch of dags!


Trying to butter me up with Seymour - nice try ;)

I will answer your question in the form of a Military Joke:
You mean you will sidestep answering the too hard questions.
P.S. actually serious about seymour and trump should really know policy as he is not giving orders to his sycophants, he is telling the public at rallies what his parties policies are - well in theory he should. I'm sure you are well aware of your attempted sidestep and sneaky straw man.


I wont be down your ways for a while, but sounds like it would be a great opportunity to do it over a pint, in front of a fire.
Yep, we will probably need to, as your answers today are ever progressively avoiding the meat of my points. Which of course is when we both know you are on the ropes. If you disagree with this point - I will post one more time and show you where you are in avoidance mode, but then - no more because I see little point putting effort in if you are not going to step up to the plate.



Sure - on one condition:

Can I put your name forward as the person to swing the blade?


It strongly appears donald trump believes in abortion up to the age of 25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-_o69AAAeQ&t=913s&pp=ygUVZnJlZCB0cnVtcCBzcGVha3Mgb3V0

[TheDemonLord]

Holy shit man, the maga tail has shaken the dog so much, the only remaining part of said dog left is an old arse hole and a bunch of dags!

I am not so sure on this point. From a Policy stand point, most of what MAGA represents is very much generic Right Wing policy. It is not aligned per-se with the traditional Christian Right, and from a decorum point of view it does deviate substantially from traditional conservative or republican sensibilities.

Perhaps you could say that their relationship and view of the Media and Institutions is a definitive break from traditional Republican norms - however I would counter that this was caused by those entities departing from their traditional norms.

When the Media is (mostly) politically neutral - the Traditional Republican type respects it as an institution.
When the Media is blatantly partisan for the Democrats - the MAGA types call them dirty smear merchants.

So whilst there are elements I could concede that there has been an element of that, from my point of view - there are causal elements outside of the Republican party.



You mean you will sidestep answering the too hard questions.
P.S. actually serious about seymour and trump should really know policy as he is not giving orders to his sycophants, he is telling the public at rallies what his parties policies are - well in theory he should. I'm sure you are well aware of your attempted sidestep and sneaky straw man.

It isnt a straw man (but I thought it was a good joke) - I saw a video from one of my preferred Right Wing news outlets where they were talking about Trump - it may have even been an interview with Seb Gorka - might not have been. Anyway - this channel were self-avowed Trump fans like myself - and they made an interesting point:

Trump seems to act on instinct or his Gut.

This was not said as an insult, but more an observation. So to your point - no, I dont believe that Trump has every single detail worked out in advance - I expect him to look at a situation and go: 'We are gonna pick this option. It is a beautiful option. The greatest option ever. We are going to have the best option in the history of this great nation. Look at this option, it's really great.'

That notion might strike terror into you that I could be so blaise - so let me give an example of what I mean - when some middle eastern country shot down a US drone, a Retaliation was suggested. Which would have killed people. Trump vetoed it - killing people for the loss of some equipment did not sit well with him. That is the sort of gut-feel decision making that Trump does. Suffice to say, I am fine with it.



Yep, we will probably need to, as your answers today are ever progressively avoiding the meat of my points. Which of course is when we both know you are on the ropes. If you disagree with this point - I will post one more time and show you where you are in avoidance mode, but then - no more because I see little point putting effort in if you are not going to step up to the plate.

We were talking different things though - my point was to demonstrate on a number of issues how far the Left has moved over the last ~20 years. It is less about the specific points themselves.

Plus, I am a little rusty :D


It strongly appears donald trump believes in abortion up to the age of 25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-_o69AAAeQ&t=913s&pp=ygUVZnJlZCB0cnVtcCBzcGVha3Mgb3V0

Curious... How that Comment was only made where no one could witness it or hear it.
Curious... How Fred Trump voted for Hilary, Biden and Kamala - now could he have a motive for saying something abhorrent but completely unproveable?
Curious... How multiple news outlets on the same day cover the same story with similar verbiage: 'Shocking!', 'Exposed!' etc. (that came up with I went to Google Fred Trump)

This old Chesnut I think is relephant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksb3KD6DfSI

Now - allow me to put my own bit of hearsay - from a Brit, SAS trooper - Obi Wan Nairobi (Christian Craighead), talking about accidentally meeting Trump:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qVWsXgiTHQ

There is another video somewhere of some other SF or similar type guy talking about meeting Trump - I wish I could find who it was or the context - but it was something similar - there was an incident and some Americans were saved - that person said something very similar about Trump - that the first thing he said was thanking him for protecting or saving Americans.

It struck me because I have two independent sources that describe a very similar interaction. I have no reason to believe that either party knew of the other ones interaction with the Donald - so it isnt a co-ordinated media campaign, just two guys relaying their experiences - and as you can tell from Mr Craighead - he is not partisan and doesnt want any part of politics.

Then you have things like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/5d8zop/serious_people_who_have_met_or_dealt_with_donald/

I struggled to find a single negative interaction - and Reddit has a tendency to lean left (there are obviously right-wing sub reddits - but there is an overall trend to the left)

[R650R]

Time for a laugh this guy is good


https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=8VFcaMWHbVQp2GHV&v=gACDI3M0_5Q&feature=youtu.be

[pritch]

The latest from the Lincoln Project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpLpOtFNFWg

[neels]

So kbdope disappears and TDL returns, surely just coincidental timing.

I fear the onset of RSI in my mousing finger from scrolling past enormous walls of text.

[Berries]

So kbdope disappears and TDL returns, surely just coincidental timing.

I fear the onset of RSI in my mousing finger from scrolling past enormous walls of text.
TDL or TLDR?

I am happy however to see that he has paid his dues to society and is back out.

[1/32 man]

I have just read where trumpf backs down from saying he should be able to control interest rates....what a move from the stable genius!
and as for his AI steal regarding Swifties support....I am waiting for a response from herself.

[Grumph]

So kbdope disappears and TDL returns, surely just coincidental timing.

I fear the onset of RSI in my mousing finger from scrolling past enormous walls of text.

Several years back I publicly enquired how I went about disabling his multi-quote button.

Disabling it would be a public service.

[TheDemonLord]

So kbdope disappears and TDL returns, surely just coincidental timing.

I fear the onset of RSI in my mousing finger from scrolling past enormous walls of text.

Okay - Bants aside - but my writing style is pretty distinctive (Multi-quotes, philosophical references, random capital letters and a love of run-on sentences) - I am not gonna throw shade on someone else - but I am pretty goddamn unique.

[TheDemonLord]

TDL or TLDR?

I am happy however to see that he has paid his dues to society and is back out.

Nah - it was a combination of factors, change in jobs - personal life issues, trying to argue less and enjoy life more.

The Trump assassination attempt made me think of you guys though, so I stuck my head back in. I was missed be a few people - it was touching (they know who they are)

[TheDemonLord]

Several years back I publicly enquired how I went about disabling his multi-quote button.

Disabling it would be a public service.

The irony is I don't use a button, I am so used to doing it, I just type out the opening and closing PHP tags now.

[pritch]

I know how the opposite worked out when in the 90's when after successive governments had underfunded mental health and many of the psychiatric hospitals were shuttered due to building decay. The government of the day (cannot remember which flavor it was) simply cast most of the patients out onto the streets and the police suddenly became mental health providers.

That was Shipley. When this was discussed on TV she was asked what if the former mental patients committed crimes. She replied that was a matter for the Police.
Which is of no help to people murdered by mental patients and yes, that has happened here.

[sugilite]

OK, big breath time. I disappeared yesterday as the IT project I'm working on bloody turned to custard when my production environment reacted completely differently from my cloned test environment. WTF :mad:

So my time has become severely limited. Which made me think about how to deal with your posting style. So from now on, if you would like to converse with me as you say you like to do - For the sake of my and other forum members sanity, I'm suggesting we debate one single subject at a time - no more multi fronted debates, as from my point of view, there becomes to many fronts of what I consider at least 40% to be deliberate misdirection - and I simply cannot keep up with the constant fact checking. Fair enough?

So lets start with my yesterdays bugbear of your sneaky straw man/misdirection response quoted further down below.
Your "joke" has no relevance to the conversation. If the discussion was on policy implementation within the party itself, it would - as you well know.:oi-grr:
As the question directly pertains to communicating and explaining the policies to potential voters so they understand what said policy is. That extends to actual details about said policy such as what it is, how it is put together, how it will benefit the people, how it is better than the policy it seeks to replace and how and when it will be implemented.
As mentioned, I sincerely believe David Seymour is the gold standard at doing this. So I ask again, and I would appreciate a sincere response - With Seymour being a 10, where does trump sit on that scale for you in communicating and explaining the policies he and his party plan to implement? So your score out of 10 for trump is????

Once we have hashed this one out, you can pick the next single trump subject for us to debate.

Just one more comment. When it comes to arguing/debating, if ones position does become untenable, it is actually quite liberating to just stand back and admit that ones position has become such. As against for instance avoiding the question with a dose of deliberate misdirection through "questionable" humor. Just some food for thought?


Trying to butter me up with Seymour - nice try ;)

I will answer your question in the form of a Military Joke:

A New Lieutenant is being interviewed about what it means to command. In the interview panel, the lieutenant is asked how he would raise the flag pole on the parade square.

The Lieutenant pauses for a moment, before confidently answering about where the flag pole is stored, the hinge, the flag pin, the rope he would use etc. etc.

After he finishes, he waits for the board to accept his answer. To his disappointment, the board unanimously says that is the wrong answer. Confused, the Lieutenant asks the Colonel on the board how he should have answered it.

The Colonel pauses, buzzes the door and calls in the Sargeant.

‘Sergeant, get that pole raised, I’ll check back in with you later‘

Trump is very much this style of leader (in my opinion) - he dictates where he wants to go, then lets his staff work out how to get there. Whereas Seymour is an Engineer and so outlines each variable and how it will be accounted for.

I like both.

[sugilite]

That was Shipley. When this was discussed on TV she was asked what if the former mental patients committed crimes. She replied that was a matter for the Police.
Which is of no help to people murdered by mental patients and yes, that has happened here.

Cheers Pritch, ahhhh - if course it was Shitlley. I well remember her "going on the benefit for a week" stunt to show that the dole was enough to live on. Never mind that all her utility bills were all paid up :facepalm:, and her fridge and pantry already full of food which she clearly enjoyed :innocent:
In a way she mirrored a lot of how trump operates. <==== On topic :sweatdrop

I will mention again though, it was constant under funding from both national and labour that so many psych hospitals became so run down they became unsustainable. Fucking politicians constantly kicking cans down roads. :bash:
They should of homed all the ejected patients in the beehive and had them getting their daily meals at bellamys. Bet we would have seen some robust mental health funding come about in pretty short order under that scenario!

[TheDemonLord]

OK, big breath time. I disappeared yesterday as the IT project I'm working on bloody turned to custard when my production environment reacted completely differently from my cloned test environment. WTF :mad:

Them feels. I feel that deep in my soul. It is the absolute worst.


So my time has become severely limited. Which made me think about how to deal with your posting style. So from now on, if you would like to converse with me as you say you like to do - For the sake of my and other forum members sanity, I'm suggesting we debate one single subject at a time - no more multi fronted debates, as from my point of view, there becomes to many fronts of what I consider at least 40% to be deliberate misdirection - and I simply cannot keep up with the constant fact checking. Fair enough?

Fair.


So lets start with my yesterdays bugbear of your sneaky straw man/misdirection response quoted further down below.
Your "joke" has no relevance to the conversation. If the discussion was on policy implementation within the party itself, it would - as you well know.:oi-grr:
As the question directly pertains to communicating and explaining the policies to potential voters so they understand what said policy is. That extends to actual details about said policy such as what it is, how it is put together, how it will benefit the people, how it is better than the policy it seeks to replace and how and when it will be implemented.
As mentioned, I sincerely believe David Seymour is the gold standard at doing this. So I ask again, and I would appreciate a sincere response - With Seymour being a 10, where does trump sit on that scale for you in communicating and explaining the policies he and his party plan to implement? So your score out of 10 for trump is????

Okay - I say this as a fan of both Seymour and Trump. Trump does not seem to me to operate in that manner. It is like comparing an Army Sniper and an Texas redneck about how they can shoot a target 400 metres away.

The Sniper (Seymour) - will tell you about the Wind, the Humidity, distance, elevation etc. etc. and hit the target.
The Texan (Trump) - will just say 'Well, I just hit it'.

You are asking me to rate Trump on a scale of how well he can articulate all the variables, but I rate Trump on whether or not he hits the target.

As such - your challenge is a non-starter for me - I trust Trumps gut instinct - call it faith if you want. It is not avoidance per se - look, if it will make you happy:

Compared to how Seymour articulates his policies, Trump is not even in the same league.

But to put that comment in perspective - when it comes to statesmen-like speeches, Obama was clearly better than Trump... Yet I still like Trumps style of speaking (it is really easy to parody, I mean it is one of the easiest - and perhaps greatest speech patterns to parody ever, you know - my friend, said to me once - This way you speak it....).

If that is a key consideration for you - fair enough, it is not a key consideration for me.


Just one more comment. When it comes to arguing/debating, if ones position does become untenable, it is actually quite liberating to just stand back and admit that ones position has become such. As against for instance avoiding the question with a dose of deliberate misdirection through "questionable" humor. Just some food for thought?

I still thought it was a good joke - and highlighted the difference of leadership styles.

[Pursang]

https://i1.wp.com/www.differencebetween.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Signs-of-Narcissistic-Personality-Disorder.png

[sugilite]

I can only take from your analogies and apparent rating of "0" that trump is hopeless at communicating policies to potential voters - as actually hitting the target would comprise of having well informed potential voters at the end of said speech.
Furthermore, you are more than happy with a party leader not having the ability to articulate policies in any meaningful form. I assume you apply this low bar to all political leaders of every flavor when analyzing their performances?
I find this a very surprising position for you to take.
Personally, I prefer leaders to have the ability to communicate clearly, rather than an uninformative mess of grievance driven whining and rants.




Okay - I say this as a fan of both Seymour and Trump. Trump does not seem to me to operate in that manner. It is like comparing an Army Sniper and an Texas redneck about how they can shoot a target 400 metres away.

The Sniper (Seymour) - will tell you about the Wind, the Humidity, distance, elevation etc. etc. and hit the target.
The Texan (Trump) - will just say 'Well, I just hit it'.

You are asking me to rate Trump on a scale of how well he can articulate all the variables, but I rate Trump on whether or not he hits the target.

As such - your challenge is a non-starter for me - I trust Trumps gut instinct - call it faith if you want. It is not avoidance per se - look, if it will make you happy:

Compared to how Seymour articulates his policies, Trump is not even in the same league.

But to put that comment in perspective - when it comes to statesmen-like speeches, Obama was clearly better than Trump... Yet I still like Trumps style of speaking (it is really easy to parody, I mean it is one of the easiest - and perhaps greatest speech patterns to parody ever, you know - my friend, said to me once - This way you speak it....).

If that is a key consideration for you - fair enough, it is not a key consideration for me.



I still thought it was a good joke - and highlighted the difference of leadership styles.

[TheDemonLord]

I can only take from your analogies and apparent rating of "0" that trump is hopeless at communicating policies to potential voters - as actually hitting the target would comprise of having well informed potential voters at the end of said speech.

Now we get into the nuance - I know the over-arching narrative, if you will, in terms of policy from Trump:

Southern Border, Law and Order, Lower regulation, reducing the size of the Federal Government, less overseas conflict, reigning in CHI-NAH etc.

Broad brush strokes.


Furthermore, you are more than happy with a party leader not having the ability to articulate policies in any meaningful form. I assume you apply this low bar to all political leaders of every flavor when analyzing their performances?
I find this a very surprising position for you to take.

So, let me compare the former Conservative Government in the UK vs Trump to highlight why this is not as critical.

Every Conservative Government for the last 10 or so years had very long and well detailed policies on how they were going to stop or curtail illegal migration. And yet there was never any meaningful change.

Trump makes some bombastic claim that he is going to defeat ISIS in a few months - and lo and behold, The Middle East settled down and seemed to behave under his premiership.

This is what I mean by he seems to operate on gut instinct - and for me, at key points when I think about actions he took and the net result of them, My life and the world seemed to be better for it.

And so from that perspective - sure I give Trump leeway that I dont give other Politicians - I said as much in the previous post that you could call it Faith if you like.

Do I know exactly how he is going to accomplish this - No. Do I think *he* knows exactly how he is going to accomplish this - also, No.

But like that Texas farm kid - I trust him to nail the target.

Probably not the robust philosophical defense you were expecting - but its the truth. My life was better when Trump was in power, the world had less war when Trump was in power.


Personally, I prefer leaders to have the ability to communicate clearly, rather than an uninformative mess of grievance driven whining and rants.

I cannot find the quote currently - I have probably used it previously in this thread - but it was from JBP - it is something like:

Trumps bombastic exagerations are more palatible than Hilarys carefully crafted attempts to manipulate.

That is - the uninformative mess of grievance is more sincere and genuine than faked empathy.

[sugilite]

Now we get into the nuance - I know the over-arching narrative, if you will, in terms of policy from Trump:

Southern Border, Law and Order, Lower regulation, reducing the size of the Federal Government, less overseas conflict, reigning in CHI-NAH etc.

Broad brush strokes.
Sure, You know the policies, but trump is there to explain these policies to swing voters, or previously dem voters who are considering voting for trump - you know the votes he actually needs on top of his preordained orange chinned base voters.:innocent:
Trumps not just there for your left triggering enjoyment pal ;)





Probably not the robust philosophical defense you were expecting - but its the truth. My life was better when Trump was in power, the world had less war when Trump was in power.

I believe in fair and balanced principles for all leaders to be judged against, I don't have a separate bunch of rules for...shall we charitably say "a special needs" president.


Trumps bombastic exagerations are more palatible than Hilarys carefully crafted attempts to manipulate.

That is - the uninformative mess of grievance is more sincere and genuine than faked empathy.

If this paragraph is still related to articulating policy, trump never gets far past the title and maybe a sentence about how it is somehow going to be the bestist most beautiful policy ever. That is a pile of steaming bullshit. At least with harris's pile of steaming bullshit you will get a much better of idea about said policy. As in, those elusive swing voters can go "hey I like that policy", I'm voting for harris, as opposed to "I don't understand what the fuck trump just said, what a bunch of bombastic waffle" and they then go online searching the net for some of that cool harris/whatshisname camo hats - Wahooo! (as i know you don't go to fox, apparently magas thought they owned the trademark for camo hats, it was hilarious!)

Hey don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy for trump to keep putting off those elusive swing voters due to grievance whining and ranting that you appear to market as "bombastic". Even if it is going to cost me the price of a stiff drink once the votes are tallied :devil2:

Looking at our writings, I don't think we are going to move each others needles in a meaningful way from here.

If you too deem that to be the case, it looks like you are pitching and I'm batting now - take your best shot! :sunny:

[F5 Dave]

I used to tell a joke as a fairly unsophisticated teenager.
The general concept was about a bloke who went hunting bears to Prove Himself. but was a terrible shot and the bear did beastly things to his bottom. But he kept coming back with more weapons. This time.

The punchline was the Bear saying " you don't just come here for the shooting do you?"

TDL is that guy.

[TheDemonLord]

Sure, You know the policies, but trump is there to explain these policies to swing voters, or previously dem voters who are considering voting for trump - you know the votes he actually needs on top of his preordained orange chinned base voters.:innocent:
Trumps not just there for your left triggering enjoyment pal ;)

Are you saying that the other voters arent as smart or as sophisticated as me - Why Sugi, such flattery ;)

I think that most voters have a good idea of what Trump. The question for the voter is those that dislike his personality, but liked the country when he ran it - can they look past that?

I think with the assassination attempt, many can.

Case in point - a lot of British commentators who are put-off by Trump being Trump (typical loud obnoxious yankee that the Brits don't like) - saw the reaction to being shot and found him to be admirable.

I have no idea how I would react to being shot. Would I have the prescence of mind to stand up defiantly - I would like to think so - but it's the kind of thing no one knows for sure until it happens.


I believe in fair and balanced principles for all leaders to be judged against, I don't have a separate bunch of rules for...shall we charitably say "a special needs" president.

Yes and No - If you had a person you worked with who you felt consistently gave you positive results - and then they asked you to trust them on something - would you subject them to the same scrutiny as a random person or the same scrutiny as someone who you felt consistently failed to deliver?


If this paragraph is still related to articulating policy, trump never gets far past the title and maybe a sentence about how it is somehow going to be the bestist most beautiful policy ever. That is a pile of steaming bullshit. At least with harris's pile of steaming bullshit you will get a much better of idea about said policy. As in, those elusive swing voters can go "hey I like that policy", I'm voting for harris, as opposed to "I don't understand what the fuck trump just said, what a bunch of bombastic waffle" and they then go online searching the net for some of that cool harris/whatshisname camo hats - Wahooo! (as i know you don't go to fox, apparently magas thought they owned the trademark for camo hats, it was hilarious!)

Obligatory - I am not Trumps campaign manager (I know, I know - shocking) - If I were - I would not be touching policy at all.

I would be asking the Voters if they want 4 years of how life was 2016 to before Covid, or if they want 4 more years of Inflation, Energy price hikes, Global conflicts etc.

I would point to each one of Kamalas campaign promises of what she plans to do when in office.... Then point out she is currently in Office and given Biden being mentally AWOL - is the person in charge, then ask why she hasn't made good on any of them yet.

That said - I wouldn't have picked Vance. I would have picked Tulsi. Not because of my undying love for that Lady, but the one demographic that Trump does poorly with (white middle class women) - Tulsi would have provided balance I feel.


Hey don't get me wrong, I'm more than happy for trump to keep putting off those elusive swing voters due to grievance whining and ranting that you appear to market as "bombastic". Even if it is going to cost me the price of a stiff drink once the votes are tallied :devil2:

Looking at our writings, I don't think we are going to move each others needles in a meaningful way from here.

If you too deem that to be the case, it looks like you are pitching and I'm batting now - take your best shot! :sunny:

I had a good poke around some various polls on the 270towin website - if you exclude NYT and Bloomberg (both of which have a left-wing bias) - most of the other polls show Trump with a small lead over Harris. Sure, she has gotten a bump because unlike Biden she is at capable of finishing a sentence (a fact we all lament, unburdened by what has been) - but despite the numerous puff pieces propping her up like she is crushing Trump - she really isn't.

I am getting very distinct 2016 flashbacks with the polling data.

But as above - a good beverage bet is on the line.

[pete376403]

Nah - it was a combination of factors, change in jobs - personal life issues, trying to argue less and enjoy life more.

The Trump assassination attempt made me think of you guys though, so I stuck my head back in. I was missed be a few people - it was touching (they know who they are)

Tump was missed by a few millimeters - a lot of people were disappointed by thet, too

[sugilite]

Are you saying that the other voters arent as smart or as sophisticated as me - Why Sugi, such flattery ;)
Well, if you want to take it as a atta boy, thats completely up to you!


I think that most voters have a good idea of what Trump. The question for the voter is those that dislike his personality, but liked the country when he ran it - can they look past that?

I think with the assassination attempt, many can.

I mean, well trump kinda had maybe a small baby bump in the polls after the attempt, but I think kamala came along and aborted it before it came to full term :bleh:


Yes and No - If you had a person you worked with who you felt consistently gave you positive results - and then they asked you to trust them on something - would you subject them to the same scrutiny as a random person or the same scrutiny as someone who you felt consistently failed to deliver?
When it comes to leading a country, standards must be maintained at all times.



Obligatory - I am not Trumps campaign manager (I know, I know - shocking) - If I were - I would not be touching policy at all.
Thank you for once again highlighting how trump is a cheapskate that does not pay his people what they are worth as clearly trump has been reading kiwibiker and has thus far followed your instructions to perfection :banana:


That said - I wouldn't have picked Vance. I would have picked Tulsi. Not because of my undying love for that Lady, but the one demographic that Trump does poorly with (white middle class women) - Tulsi would have provided balance I feel.
It does not take much imagination to gauge exactly what sort of feel you would have for Tulsi! I still miss reveling in miss truss boobies, it was an incredible couple of weeks seeing them near daily, what a shame it didn't last and the lettuce won :msn-wink:



I had a good poke around some various polls on the 270towin website - if you exclude NYT and Bloomberg (both of which have a left-wing bias) - most of the other polls show Trump with a small lead over Harris. Sure, she has gotten a bump because unlike Biden she is at capable of finishing a sentence (a fact we all lament, unburdened by what has been) - but despite the numerous puff pieces propping her up like she is crushing Trump - she really isn't.
I am getting very distinct 2016 flashbacks with the polling data.
Wow, you are certainly in line for a gold medal in the polled voter event :laugh:
Ahhh, I remember the good old days of the few hours before the last midterm US elections, "someone, cant think who?" was strutting around the forum like a proud peacock - hitting all the crack the polls had on offer! Only to then resemble a plucked turkey once the votes had been counted and the highly anticipated red wave had been severely downgraded to a small wet orange fart :bleh:


But as above - a good beverage bet is on the line.
As exciting as that bet is, what a shame it could not have been a tulsi tug or a truss motorboating up for grabs - dammit. :baby:

[TheDemonLord]

Tump was missed by a few millimeters - a lot of people were disappointed by thet, too

Which speaks more about them than anything else.

I will say this, in the interest of fairness - one of the most unifying things post the attempt was the bi-partisan condemnation of the Secret Service by both the Republicans and the moderate Democrats.

Putting aside the fringes that as above - were disappointed - I saw a lot of commentary among the moderate Dems about how the multiple failings were unacceptable and how that is not what they expected for the Secret Service.

[TheDemonLord]

I mean, well trump kinda had maybe a small baby bump in the polls after the attempt, but I think kamala came along and aborted it before it came to full term :bleh:

Something pointed out elsewhere - the Trump assassination attempt was in the news cycle for less time than Chris Rock getting slapped.

Consider how news outlets still bang on about Jan 6th - this is the sort of media bias we are talking about. We'll see. If the roles were reversed, I would bet that every major news outlet would be running a Harris Assassination story 24/7 until the polls closed.

We also have yet to see Trump vs Harris debate. Trump crushed Hilary, the 2020 Biden debate was not the best Trump performance (I still think he won - but then I am biased), 2024 Biden was so bad that Biden dropped out - If Trump can carry a little more of his subdued performance and act a little more Presidential - I dont see Harris winning the Debate.

Hell, Tulsi annihilated her in the 2020 primaries.


When it comes to leading a country, standards must be maintained at all times.

Is there any Politician, of any stripe, that comes close to that standard - even my own beloved Saint David of Seymour falls short.

I get your point - but you must admit that we grant more leeway to people we believe are working with our best interests at heart. The latter part is absolutely up for debate.


Thank you for once again highlighting how trump is a cheapskate that does not pay his people what they are worth as clearly trump has been reading kiwibiker and has thus far followed your instructions to perfection :banana:

4 more years of a Trump presidency with cheaper petrol, low inflation, good economy and less global war is more than payment enough.


It does not take much imagination to gauge exactly what sort of feel you would have for Tulsi! I still miss reveling in miss truss boobies, it was an incredible couple of weeks seeing them near daily, what a shame it didn't last and the lettuce won :msn-wink:

This is the closest I will ever come to a personal riposte - Liz Truss, really? I mean I aint gonna Yuck your Yum...

However, back to my favorite topic:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k86n1HQ-yO4

A number of points - firstly her insight and commentary is fantastic. And secondly - Goddamn is that woman made of fine Wine. The silver streak is just doing all kinds of things.


Wow, you are certainly in line for a gold medal in the polled voter event :laugh:
Ahhh, I remember the good old days of the few hours before the last midterm US elections, "someone, cant think who?" was strutting around the forum like a proud peacock - hitting all the crack the polls had on offer! Only to then resemble a plucked turkey once the votes had been counted and the highly anticipated red wave had been severely downgraded to a small wet orange fart :bleh:

So we are talking the 2022 Midterms - my memory is a little hazy - but IIRC it was still a Republican victory, not as big as hoped - but there was a lot of results that on the surface looked like the red wave didn't happen, but when the data was dug into - showed that there was a definitive shift towards the Republican side.

Maybe it is optimism, maybe not - but I am getting 2016 vibes.


As exciting as that bet is, what a shame it could not have been a tulsi tug or a truss motorboating up for grabs - dammit. :baby:

Id let you have Liz for free if I could spend an evening with Lt Colonel Gabbard....

[husaberg]

I can only take from your analogies and apparent rating of "0" that trump is hopeless at communicating policies to potential voters - as actually hitting the target would comprise of having well informed potential voters at the end of said speech.
Furthermore, you are more than happy with a party leader not having the ability to articulate policies in any meaningful form. I assume you apply this low bar to all political leaders of every flavor when analyzing their performances?
I find this a very surprising position for you to take.
Personally, I prefer leaders to have the ability to communicate clearly, rather than an uninformative mess of grievance driven whining and rants.


Tump was missed by a few millimeters - a lot of people were disappointed by thet, too
Faux outrage about trump nearly getting shot.
Yet trump mocked a democrats leaders 80 year old husband who was attacked with a hammer and received a fractured skull?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR7LHOfSA_k

https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/trump-continues-to-joke-about-assault-of-paul-pelosi-197718085570

Yet why did the attacker he say he did it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQCe63u31R8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXeSKD5MVV8

[1/32 man]

This is what I mean by he seems to operate on gut instinct How did that work out for the US when Covid showed up?

[TheDemonLord]

How did that work out for the US when Covid showed up?

Considering the Tyranny in New Zealand - Absolutely fantastic.

[pete376403]

Considering the Tyranny in New Zealand - Absolutely fantastic.

Because everyone knows that death is so much better than staying home for a few weeks "give me liberty or give me death" indeed

[R650R]

Operation warp speed , they said it would take 5 years I did it in two days lol

This gets good about halfway


https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=ypInzjMZcML1OM3u&v=0QathxavHSk&feature=youtu.be

[pritch]

https://i1.wp.com/www.differencebetween.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Signs-of-Narcissistic-Personality-Disorder.png

And that right there is Donald J Trump. Except that he probably has other additional untreated mental disorders.

[TheDemonLord]

Because everyone knows that death is so much better than staying home for a few weeks "give me liberty or give me death" indeed

I mean, it *is* a foundational statement of the US...

[pete376403]

I mean, it *is* a foundational statement of the US...

You believe it? Seems you failed to follow through during the lockdowns

[sugilite]

Something pointed out elsewhere - the Trump assassination attempt was in the news cycle for less time than Chris Rock getting slapped.
100% of dems hate trump, my "guess" is at least 40% of republicans (RIP) hold their nose when they vote for trump. I would suggest how long people give a shit is based on if they respect said person.
The right wing media went away from covering it after fairly short order too I noticed. Are they biased too?

Add to all that, since then, Trump kept on making massive own goals which took the limelight away from his earlier press. For instance at a black reporters conference. "Kamala only recently decided to become black" in front of that crowd! What an IDIOT. As usual, trump was the author of his own misfortune. Then he picked a guy for vp that went on to say stupid things about woman and the role he sees they should be filling. For the last month every time trump has had a microphone in his hand he starts smashing it into his nuts. Don't get me wrong, I never get sick of that - give that man a bigger microphone I say!


We also have yet to see Trump vs Harris debate. Trump crushed Hilary, the 2020 Biden debate was not the best Trump performance (I still think he won - but then I am biased), 2024 Biden was so bad that Biden dropped out - If Trump can carry a little more of his subdued performance and act a little more Presidential - I dont see Harris winning the Debate.
That is one hell of a bold prediction. I'm looking forward to Kamala the prosecutor putting big mouth under the kosh! A former prosecutor against a criminal convicted unanimously by a jury of 12. You may want to keep in mind how much you passionately defended the US legal system in past debates before you reply.
Are you sure he is debate ready at all? Becuase of late I noticed trumps energy levels have dropped in the last few years if you look at some of his earlier videos, now he is down to this - Michigan yesterday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX-dKjlVlkk

You better get on the next plane to the USA post haste, looks like the guy could do with a hug.


Is there any Politician, of any stripe, that comes close to that standard - even my own beloved Saint David of Seymour falls short.

I get your point - but you must admit that we grant more leeway to people we believe are working with our best interests at heart. The latter part is absolutely up for debate.
If course you are right, no politician measures up to that standard, being seen to always do ones best is good enough. Trump however never got close to that standard Trump for trump etc.


4 more years of a Trump presidency with cheaper petrol, low inflation, good economy and less global war is more than payment enough.
The USA does not have complete control over gas prices, the inflation is low compared to other countries who are still dealing with covid fallout/wayward covid policies. Trump started a war within his own country imo. Not many bodies - yet.


This is the closest I will ever come to a personal riposte - Liz Truss, really? I mean I aint gonna Yuck your Yum...
Her boobs for me are a 10, the rest of her is perfectly fine too :love:


So we are talking the 2022 Midterms - my memory is a little hazy - but IIRC it was still a Republican victory, not as big as hoped - but there was a lot of results that on the surface looked like the red wave didn't happen, but when the data was dug into - showed that there was a definitive shift towards the Republican side.
I heard people had memory issues when stepping back out of the cryo chamber after a year :bleh:
https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/tdl-trump-1.jpg
https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/tdl-trump-2.jpg

Looking forward to seeing how this one of yours pans out :msn-wink:
https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/tdl-trump-voter-count-24.jpg

[TheDemonLord]

100% of dems hate trump, my "guess" is at least 40% of republicans (RIP) hold their nose when they vote for trump. I would suggest how long people give a shit is based on if they respect said person.
The right wing media went away from covering it after fairly short order too I noticed. Are they biased too?

The Right Wing media is preaching to the choir though - their audience is presumably already on the Trump train. The point was to draw the comparison between how we both know that the Left would react if the roles were reversed and the sort of wall-to-wall coverage that would be occurring


Add to all that, since then, Trump kept on making massive own goals which took the limelight away from his earlier press. For instance at a black reporters conference. "Kamala only recently decided to become black" in front of that crowd! What an IDIOT.

Not necessarily - I have heard commentary from African Americans that they really don't like it when people who aren't fully black, playing the black card.

Now - Caveat - I don't like playing racial politics, it is not something I advance - I am only pointing out that there is a proportion of the African American community who feels like Kamala is pretending to be 'black' when it suits her agenda - and they don't like it.


As usual, trump was the author of his own misfortune. Then he picked a guy for vp that went on to say stupid things about woman and the role he sees they should be filling. For the last month every time trump has had a microphone in his hand he starts smashing it into his nuts. Don't get me wrong, I never get sick of that - give that man a bigger microphone I say!

I have seen other commentary on JD Vance - one political news outlet I follow picked him as the VP, that same group made a comment that JD was essentially Trump's assassination policy (this is before the actual attempt) - e.g. have a candidate that the radical Left would dislike or



That is one hell of a bold prediction. I'm looking forward to Kamala the prosecutor putting big mouth under the kosh! A former prosecutor against a criminal convicted unanimously by a jury of 12. You may want to keep in mind how much you passionately defended the US legal system in past debates before you reply.

Tulsi, who is not a prosecutor, destroyed Harris in the debates. And I dont think Tulsi is that good of a debater.


Are you sure he is debate ready at all? Becuase of late I noticed trumps energy levels have dropped in the last few years if you look at some of his earlier videos, now he is down to this - Michigan yesterday.

You better get on the next plane to the USA post haste, looks like the guy could do with a hug.

Could be a drop in energy levels, could be he has mellowed out a bit - I am not sure - in his Biden debate, we certainly got a more restrained Trump. Perhaps the near death experience has had some unintended consequences.


If course you are right, no politician measures up to that standard, being seen to always do ones best is good enough. Trump however never got close to that standard Trump for trump etc.

Always doing ones best - an interesting standard... So the example I keep referencing is the lack of a retaliatory strike for downing a Drone. Organizing the end of the Middle East Wars is another, Making the US Energy independent, moving the embassy to Jerusalem - Those are the examples that stick out to me as doing ones best. I doubt you will agree with them - but if the standard is doing ones best, then from my perspective - Trump meets it.


The USA does not have complete control over gas prices, the inflation is low compared to other countries who are still dealing with covid fallout/wayward covid policies. Trump started a war within his own country imo. Not many bodies - yet.

Sure - but it stands to reason if the USA is a net exporter of energy, then globally it will be cheaper than if the USA is a net importer of energy.

Started a war? As I said - Trump is a reaction to deeper socio-political divides.


Her boobs for me are a 10, the rest of her is perfectly fine too :love:

You do you. :D


I heard people had memory issues when stepping back out of the cryo chamber after a year :bleh:

Looking forward to seeing how this one of yours pans out :msn-wink:

Excellent recollection! Fair point then.

[1/32 man]

Considering the Tyranny in New Zealand - Absolutely fantastic.

No, consider how it worked out in the US please.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Considering the Tyranny in New Zealand - Absolutely fantastic.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Show us on the doll where they touched you

[sugilite]

The Right Wing media is preaching to the choir though - their audience is presumably already on the Trump train. The point was to draw the comparison between how we both know that the Left would react if the roles were reversed and the sort of wall-to-wall coverage that would be occurring
What an odd response - so you are saying it is fine that the right wing media can drop the story earlier because trump supporters are already on the train, but the left wing media should run the story longer....to, ummmm - give slow reading democrats a chance to catch the train? Surely an easier solution would be to put kiwirail in charge, so every one has a fair chance to catch the now guaranteed slow late train :yes:


Not necessarily - I have heard commentary from African Americans that they really don't like it when people who aren't fully black, playing the black card.

Oh really? I will have to insist on a robust link for that one mate.


I have seen other commentary on JD Vance - one political news outlet I follow picked him as the VP, that same group made a comment that JD was essentially Trump's assassination policy (this is before the actual attempt) - e.g. have a candidate that the radical Left would dislike or
Not sure where the rest of that went. Yeah, I must admit I've been waiting for the maga mob to start saying JD is a dem plant (with jd's history of calling trump hitler etc) and the war cry of "Lance JD Vance" to start ringing out!

The comparison of the two vice president nominees can be found in the 2 videos below - both from yesterday. I now very much see why kamala picked that guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReGGW4IgBRk

Contrasted with....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHtYcbH50ag&pp=ygUPVGltIFdhbHogc3BlYWtz


Could be a drop in energy levels, could be he has mellowed out a bit - I am not sure - in his Biden debate, we certainly got a more restrained Trump. Perhaps the near death experience has had some unintended consequences.

Or he has been watching the wild popularity of the Dems conference? The differences between the RNC and DMC bashes was very stark to say the least.


Tulsi, who is not a prosecutor, destroyed Harris in the debates. And I dont think Tulsi is that good of a debater.
You would cheer like a giddy school boy for tulsi if she stood at the podium and recited the alphabet. I can just see it, as she gets to the letter "B" you would go and grab her arse and loudly shout "B for butt". I think we would all know what body part you would be grabbing to represent the letter "C"! As endorsed by the orange one :laugh:


Always doing ones best - an interesting standard... So the example I keep referencing is the lack of a retaliatory strike for downing a Drone. Organizing the end of the Middle East Wars is another, Making the US Energy independent, moving the embassy to Jerusalem - Those are the examples that stick out to me as doing ones best. I doubt you will agree with them - but if the standard is doing ones best, then from my perspective - Trump meets it.
Are you having a laugh? trump solved peace in the middle east? At best he did the equivalent of making some fighting kids in a playground begrudgingly shake hands. Moving the embassy pleased precisely one country and not retaliating when a single drone got shot down - big whoop. That in no way makes up for the carnage he caused his own countries faith in democracy through his never ending wahhh wahhh fire hose of stolen election lies.


Sure - but it stands to reason if the USA is a net exporter of energy, then globally it will be cheaper than if the USA is a net importer of energy.
And in case you missed it, the USA is producing more oil under biden than trump. I'm assuming you are writing a letter of congratulations to biden right now? ;)


Started a war? As I said - Trump is a reaction to deeper socio-political divides.
History will remember trump as a orange shit stain on the crisp white bed sheets of the great American experiment :oi-grr:



You do you. :D
You know, people have been telling me variations of this for years, and I have never worked out what exactly they were meaning :innocent:

[TheDemonLord]

No, consider how it worked out in the US please.

Okay - When certain Michigan tried to pass tyrannical restrictions based on the Sniffles - Militia turned out in force, armed to the teeth - to remind the Government that they work *for* the people.

And so yes - I think that worked out better.

When it comes to the Death Toll - that was an inevitability in the big cities based on an aging population, mass-transit systems and a prevalance of co-morbidities (many of which have been long pointed out).

America, for the most part, retained its fundamental freedoms.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Show us on the doll where they touched you

Never before did I think in an Anglo-Liberal democracy I would need to show my papers to merely go about my business.

NEVER

Never did I think the rest of the population would be so complicit as to go along with it.

[sugilite]

Okay - When certain Michigan tried to pass tyrannical restrictions based on the Sniffles - Militia turned out in force, armed to the teeth - to remind the Government that they work *for* the people.

And so yes - I think that worked out better.

Not so much for the Militia though eh :lol:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/27/politics/adam-fox-sentenced-whitmer-kidnapping-plot/index.html

[HenryDorsetCase]

Never before did I think in an Anglo-Liberal democracy I would need to show my papers to merely go about my business.

NEVER

Never did I think the rest of the population would be so complicit as to go along with it.

Its for your own good, son.

[TheDemonLord]

What an odd response - so you are saying it is fine that the right wing media can drop the story earlier because trump supporters are already on the train, but the left wing media should run the story longer....to, ummmm - give slow reading democrats a chance to catch the train? Surely an easier solution would be to put kiwirail in charge, so every one has a fair chance to catch the now guaranteed slow late train :yes:

There is more to it than that. Remember how I have said repeatedly I dont watch Fox (read into that what you will) - but to ask a question: If the roles had been reversed and it was either Biden or Kamala that had nearly been shot - do you think that it would have been dropped so quickly - or do you think that runs and re-runs of the event would be plastered everywhere from now until right before the Election


Oh really? I will have to insist on a robust link for that one mate.

As one example - 2 minutes in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebtw4Cu9hfc

Notice how CNN has to ringfence that as a fringe opinion...


Not sure where the rest of that went. Yeah, I must admit I've been waiting for the maga mob to start saying JD is a dem plant (with jd's history of calling trump hitler etc) and the war cry of "Lance JD Vance" to start ringing out!

I havent invested much into having an opinion on either person TBH - I did see some ruffled feathers on the Veteran community side over Walz saying he retired as a Command Sergeant Major. TL;DR - he was an acting CSM, went to the school, but didn't stay in the Guard long enough after attending the leadership school to retire as a CSM.

For my 2c, I think Walz saying he was a CSM is fine and I can appreciate that for the sake of simplicity he omits all the minutae around promotions and acting etc. he just says it. Veterans though point out that a CSM is responsible for upholding things like standards and integrity and other Army values - they are annoyed he is not being correct.

But as above - I kinda give him a pass on that.


Or he has been watching the wild popularity of the Dems conference? The differences between the RNC and DMC bashes was very stark to say the least.

I have not watched it - but I did see that Michelle Obama was wheeled out - which tells me that they are pulling out all the stops... which tells me they are afraid...


You would cheer like a giddy school boy for tulsi if she stood at the podium and recited the alphabet. I can just see it, as she gets to the letter "B" you would go and grab her arse and loudly shout "B for butt". I think we would all know what body part you would be grabbing to represent the letter "C"! As endorsed by the orange one :laugh:

A is for Arse, B is for Boobs, C is for C you Next Tuesday I have got a fantasy to live out...

Anyways - let me quote that notorious Right wing Outlet... CNN:


Tulsi Gabbard rips Kamala Harris' record on criminal prosecutions


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4fjA0K2EeE



Are you having a laugh? trump solved peace in the middle east? At best he did the equivalent of making some fighting kids in a playground begrudgingly shake hands. Moving the embassy pleased precisely one country and not retaliating when a single drone got shot down - big whoop. That in no way makes up for the carnage he caused his own countries faith in democracy through his never ending wahhh wahhh fire hose of stolen election lies.

I never said Solved.

How many new wars started in the Middle East under Trump?
How many US service Members died?
Compare what happened under Obama or Biden to how things were under Trump.

What is the current Death toll of the Israel/Hamas conflict - It is my sincere belief that had Trump been in power, the Afghanistan withdrawal wouldn't have been a shambles and various other factors would not have emboldened Hamas to commit the October 7th attack which would lead to Israel not levelling Gaza.

Or the other example - Russia invaded Crimea under Obama. Did nothing under Trump. Invaded Ukraine again under Biden. Seems to me that there is a common factor as to when Russia tries it on.


And in case you missed it, the USA is producing more oil under biden than trump. I'm assuming you are writing a letter of congratulations to biden right now? ;)

And for the same consumption - There is a lot of nuance around this - however, even when adjusted for inflation - Petrol was cheaper under Trump and more expensive under Biden.


History will remember trump as a orange shit stain on the crisp white bed sheets of the great American experiment :oi-grr:

Just like Historians conveniently forget that the roots of Fascism was Marxism... No, I think Trump will be remembered interestingly. Whatever does happen - I can bet there will be at least another 400 pages of debate.


You know, people have been telling me variations of this for years, and I have never worked out what exactly they were meaning :innocent:

Hahahahahahaha

[TheDemonLord]

Its for your own good, son.

and therein lies the most insidious problem:


Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

[TheDemonLord]

Not so much for the Militia though eh :lol:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/12/27/politics/adam-fox-sentenced-whitmer-kidnapping-plot/index.html

Isnt that the case where most of the co-conspirators were Federal Agents....

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDMQhzY9Z3U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WzcOwlr5sA

[sugilite]

There is more to it than that. Remember how I have said repeatedly I dont watch Fox (read into that what you will) - but to ask a question: If the roles had been reversed and it was either Biden or Kamala that had nearly been shot - do you think that it would have been dropped so quickly - or do you think that runs and re-runs of the event would be plastered everywhere from now until right before the Election
Fox has to be in the trump conversation as that is the place that overwhelmingly right wing voters get their news from.
I would suggest to you, that each side would milk the fuck out an failed assassination "opportunity". To me it would seem your beef should lie with why the right media has dropped it so fast. Why moan about the other sides whos interest is not in promoting it? Still, for me at least - I view this as a strange position for you to be holding.


As one example - 2 minutes in:

First of all, interviewing some dudes in a barbershop is hardly what I would call a robust link. 2nd, I'm very surprised you go to CNN for your news, wow. (or perhaps struggling to find material that supports your theory?) 3rdly, I would suggest that a large hall of black journalists would be about the most stupid place that trump could put forward this nonsense. I notice trump has since dropped this line of stupidity.


I havent invested much into having an opinion on either person TBH - I did see some ruffled feathers on the Veteran community side over Walz saying he retired as a Command Sergeant Major. TL;DR - he was an acting CSM, went to the school, but didn't stay in the Guard long enough after attending the leadership school to retire as a CSM. For my 2c, I think Walz saying he was a CSM is fine and I can appreciate that for the sake of simplicity he omits all the minutae around promotions and acting etc. he just says it. Veterans though point out that a CSM is responsible for upholding things like standards and integrity and other Army values - they are annoyed he is not being correct.

Both men served their country in their respective roles just fine. Each side are being abject wankers about it. Fox's latest gambit of saying that walz is a sleeper agent because he taught in chinese schools 13 odd years before running for office is especially pathetic. (Comer was pushing it on fox too, needs to be investigated he says). Apparently comer is a gluten for humiliation as their biden impeachment effort just recently ended with no evidence to impeach. The house maga mobs witchhunt essentially had the effect of totally exonerating president biden! Now that is genuinely hilarious :laugh:


I have not watched it - but I did see that Michelle Obama was wheeled out - which tells me that they are pulling out all the stops... which tells me they are afraid...
First, why an earth would they not bring out michelle when she has speaking skills that she does, and is wildly popular and motivating. Secondly, they have good reason to be afraid. Letting that convicted criminal back into office would be very bad for the country. Furthermore, a stark contrast between the dem and maga convention was the dems rolled out multiple past presidents, and ramped up the razzmatazz with current music stars and such. In contrast, the maga mob wheeled out no past presidents, a tired old ex wrestler and kid rock, an aged musician whose careers best years are decades behind him. Oh yes, lets not forget a bunch of unlicensed music they are now being sued over - again.


I never said Solved.
My apologies, what you actually said was "Organizing the end of the Middle East Wars is another,". That is a pretty bloody compelling and finite statement - yes?


How many new wars started in the Middle East under Trump?
I view this line of logic as being highly subjective at best. I do not attribute anywhere near as much influence to trump on the middle east as what you do. It is my view that trump would not hesitate to send the country to war if it were to benefit himself. The fact that pretty much his only military retaliatory response was he took out that general who mean tweeted him speaks volumes about where his priority lies when it comes to taking military action. Remember, I have formed my opinion on trump from his own words, actions and non actions. Because you have this mind boggling blind spot when it comes to trump - let me offer the two examples you have provided in previous threads. Iran attacks drone - trumps response, ahhh meh, let it slide. Iranian general mean tweets trump, trump has him killed in a drone strike. As much as I have no doubt you will love that, the reality is he only chose to respond when his fragile ego was hurt. Not what you want or need in a leader.


What is the current Death toll of the Israel/Hamas conflict - It is my sincere belief that had Trump been in power, the Afghanistan withdrawal wouldn't have been a shambles and various other factors would not have emboldened Hamas to commit the October 7th attack which would lead to Israel not levelling Gaza.
Very subjective once again in regards to Afghanistan. Trump does not have much of a clue about how the armed forces works apart from how to dodge the draft. It is the same US armed forces under both presidents, I doubt trump would of sent them a blue print on how to retract in a better fashion than what they did under Biden. In regards to the attack on Gaza, what is it?? saint trump does not start wars, or war hawk trump is so likely to start a war the hamas would have been too paralyzed with fear to act? For me the blood rushing to your woody for trump appears to be coming from the part of your brain that controls unbiased critical thinking :bleh:


Or the other example - Russia invaded Crimea under Obama. Did nothing under Trump. Invaded Ukraine again under Biden. Seems to me that there is a common factor as to when Russia tries it on.
And for the same consumption - There is a lot of nuance around this - however, even when adjusted for inflation - Petrol was cheaper under Trump and more expensive under Biden.
I'm getting real bored with this line highly subjective woulda, shoulda coulda rubbish :yawn:


Just like Historians conveniently forget that the roots of Fascism was Marxism... No, I think Trump will be remembered interestingly. Whatever does happen - I can bet there will be at least another 400 pages of debate.
So you foresee the history books covering US presidents and their historical impact as simply showing one photo of trump with just the caption of "Interesting" :laugh:

[Berries]

I can bet there will be at least another 400 pages of debate.
If you two keep multi quoting each other we will be there in a couple of weeks.

T-shirt I saw in San Fran recently -

[Stylo]

If you two keep multi quoting each other we will be there in a couple of weeks.

T-shirt I saw in San Fran recently -

That's a good T-Shirt.

It's interesting watching a doddery old man with the brain of a spoilt brat, a 9 year old brat maximum, trying to defend himself.

I'm looking forward to the debate. Kamala will kill him.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Very subjective once again in regards to Afghanistan. Trump does not have much of a clue about how the armed forces works apart from how to dodge the draft. It is the same US armed forces under both presidents, I doubt trump would of sent them a blue print on how to retract in a better fashion than what they did under Biden. In regards to the attack on Gaza, what is it?? saint trump does not start wars, or war hawk trump is so likely to start a war the hamas would have been too paralyzed with fear to act? For me the blood rushing to your woody for trump appears to be coming from the part of your brain that controls unbiased critical thinking :bleh:



The President of the USA is the Commander in Chief of all of her Armed Forces. Fun fact: the US Air Force is the largest air force in the world (by any measure). What is the second largest? Yep, it is the US Navy.

Anyway all of the informed sources that I have read seem to agree that the US exit was a complete clusterfuck that left a power vacuum that the Taliban walked into. Boom. Instant dark ages because of their stupid religion and even stupider politics.

Hopefully when Kamala is elected it will signal the rising of the matriarchy. I honestly believe if women were in charge then life would be better. It would also free up my time for being decorative and for activities. Its a win win. The patriarchy is a lot of tedious hassle.

[1/32 man]

Hopefully when Kamala is elected it will signal the rising of the matriarchy. I honestly believe if women were in charge then life would be better. It would also free up my time for being decorative and for activities. Its a win win. The patriarchy is a lot of tedious hassle.

Similar thoughts here....

[pete376403]

The only thing trump is good for - providing cartoonists with subject matter

[pritch]

I would suggest to you, that each side would milk the fuck out an failed assassination "opportunity".

The event would seem to have received an appropriate amount of coverage, it's still in the news seems like almost every day.

You may recall reports at the time that the local cops weren't able to communicate urgently with the Secret Service. A couple of days ago it was announced that the local cops had made radios available to the SS but the radios hadn't been collected.

The same day in a seperate news item it was announced that the five SS planners involved in the event had been assigned to administrative duties.

It's not exactly like there's a news vacuum.

[R650R]

Anyway all of the informed sources that I have read seem to agree that the US exit was a complete clusterfuck that left a power vacuum that the Taliban walked into. Boom. Instant dark ages because of their stupid religion and even stupider politics.

Hopefully when Kamala is elected it will signal the rising of the matriarchy. I honestly believe if women were in charge then life would be better. It would also free up my time for being decorative and for activities. Its a win win. The patriarchy is a lot of tedious hassle.

Could leaving Afghanistan as a mess have been a strategic move. With NATO vs Russia looming it could be handy having a stockpile of weapons and mercanaries sitting there to cause untold problems for Russia in south.
Couple of phone calls and youÂ’ve bought yourself a warlord all you need is a few air transports raining cash, ammo and spare parts into the mix.Even as a jumping off point to insert western special forces it would be invaluable.

Well weÂ’ve had several powerful women leaders in this country and whether you agree with their politics or not there was no epic transformation of society and the results have been mixed. Jenny Shipley, Helen Clarke and Jacinda Adern.
In the world stage you had Margaret Thatcher lead Falklands war (no instant world peace) and the coal miners and their families suddenly unemployed probably shocked about it. Germany has Angela Merkel, Italy and Finland also have female leaders.
IÂ’ve no problems with women leaders but I donÂ’t think itÂ’s the magic pill to fix societies problems.The real issue is most political systems revolve around only having to provide good results once every three to four years.

[R650R]

A bit more comedy. Does both sides and last half bit out of date now Biden is out but it’s a good laugh mostly at Trumps expense no surprise. The bit about bragging about felony counts is hilarious as it’s actually something so stupid trump is likely to do it himself


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmvJjMGX7hw

[pritch]

In case anybody still believes Trump is a stable genius...

On September 5th Trump is planning to host an awards ceremony at Mar A Lago. This event is to celebrate heroes of his Jan 6 coup attempt who will be present for the event. Consorting with felons would constitute a breech of the release conditions imposed by the court(s) and would render him liable to immediate imprisonment.

It's difficult to determine whether he is really *that* stupid or actually wants to be locked up.

[Grumph]

In case anybody still believes Trump is a stable genius...

On September 5th Trump is planning to host an awards ceremony at Mar A Lago. This event is to celebrate heroes of his Jan 6 coup attempt who will be present for the event. Consorting with felons would constitute a breech of the release conditions imposed by the court(s) and would render him liable to immediate imprisonment.

It's difficult to determine whether he is really *that* stupid or actually wants to be locked up.

He's a prominent example of the narcissistic, entitled class of person who simply don't believe the rules apply to them.

[F5 Dave]

What beggers belief is that there are those that somehow think that he has thier sorry little interests at heart or even the good of their country.

What is sadder is the dumb kiwis amongst our rank that think they are somehow American.
Too much USA TV which had to have an effect on or society.

[Kickaha]

He's a prominent example of the narcissistic, entitled class of person who simply don't believe the rules apply to them.

That's what happens when you get away with so much with no consequences over your lifetime

[TheDemonLord]

Fox has to be in the trump conversation as that is the place that overwhelmingly right wing voters get their news from.
I would suggest to you, that each side would milk the fuck out an failed assassination "opportunity". To me it would seem your beef should lie with why the right media has dropped it so fast. Why moan about the other sides whos interest is not in promoting it? Still, for me at least - I view this as a strange position for you to be holding.

The presumes I consider Fox to be the right wing media. Again - I rarely if ever go to Fox or use them as a source. Which is beside the point I was making - if the roles were reversed, would we have seen it dropped as quickly.


First of all, interviewing some dudes in a barbershop is hardly what I would call a robust link. 2nd, I'm very surprised you go to CNN for your news, wow. (or perhaps struggling to find material that supports your theory?) 3rdly, I would suggest that a large hall of black journalists would be about the most stupid place that trump could put forward this nonsense. I notice trump has since dropped this line of stupidity.

I have heard that sentiment on multiple disparate channels. You asked for proof - so I selected on that is most biased *against* my position. 4 random black guys in a Barbershop all hold the same belief as to Kamala and her claims of Race - when have you seen 4 random people agree on anything when it comes to politics?



Both men served their country in their respective roles just fine. Each side are being abject wankers about it. Fox's latest gambit of saying that walz is a sleeper agent because he taught in chinese schools 13 odd years before running for office is especially pathetic. (Comer was pushing it on fox too, needs to be investigated he says). Apparently comer is a gluten for humiliation as their biden impeachment effort just recently ended with no evidence to impeach. The house maga mobs witchhunt essentially had the effect of totally exonerating president biden! Now that is genuinely hilarious :laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVMkvv8PQhk

This is perhaps the most even breakdown of the issues that veterans have with Walz. But the TL;DR is:

- Is claiming he retired at a rank he did not earn
- Enrolled in a limited space school when he was on his way out
- Did not deploy to combat with his unit

Now, to clarify - since he was an acting CSM, I give him a free pass for saying he was a CSM, even though the above link goes through why saying that is wrong. The other stuff, I dont have a strong opinion on - but I do find the critique from fellow service-members, on service related issues to be interesting.



First, why an earth would they not bring out michelle when she has speaking skills that she does, and is wildly popular and motivating.

Because she isnt running to be President... Is she... And if part of your pitch is first black female president, it does not do well to be upstaged by Michelle.


Furthermore, a stark contrast between the dem and maga convention was the dems rolled out multiple past presidents, and ramped up the razzmatazz with current music stars and such. In contrast, the maga mob wheeled out no past presidents, a tired old ex wrestler and kid rock, an aged musician whose careers best years are decades behind him. Oh yes, lets not forget a bunch of unlicensed music they are now being sued over - again.

I tell you one thing Brother, when the thousands of Trump-o-Maniacs Say their prayers and eat their vitamins Brother...

(okay that is enough of that)

Hulk cutting a wrestling Promo was... Amusing - to say the least. Kid Rock is still surprisingly relevant amongst his demographic (Red Necks, lets be honest) - There was also the OF star (I forget her name) at the RNC - which caused some discussion.

You say the Dems wheeled out multiple past presidents - almost as if they are trying to project an air of Legitimacy to Kamala that she does not have. One might say - Overcompensating.



My apologies, what you actually said was "Organizing the end of the Middle East Wars is another,". That is a pretty bloody compelling and finite statement - yes?

It is - and under his Presidency no new wars were started. And the current conflicts that America was involved in (for 20 years...) were negotiated to end.

That does not mean full Peace in the Middle East.

Until Biden screwed it all up.

In fact - as an aside, I was talking with an Iranian regular at my local Gym (the guy is built like a Persian Wrestler - all chest) - and his perspective (as someone from that region) on both Biden, Trump and the current Conflicts was a hell of a lot more scathing than even my most pointed critique.



I view this line of logic as being highly subjective at best. I do not attribute anywhere near as much influence to trump on the middle east as what you do. It is my view that trump would not hesitate to send the country to war if it were to benefit himself. The fact that pretty much his only military retaliatory response was he took out that general who mean tweeted him speaks volumes about where his priority lies when it comes to taking military action. Remember, I have formed my opinion on trump from his own words, actions and non actions. Because you have this mind boggling blind spot when it comes to trump - let me offer the two examples you have provided in previous threads. Iran attacks drone - trumps response, ahhh meh, let it slide. Iranian general mean tweets trump, trump has him killed in a drone strike. As much as I have no doubt you will love that, the reality is he only chose to respond when his fragile ego was hurt. Not what you want or need in a leader.

Man, I wish you could have a chat with the guy I mentioned above. But okay - fair riposte, he drone struck someone for saying Mean Tweets - I mean it is wasn't like the guy had been a designated terrorist since the mid 2000s or assisted with the Iraqi insurgency or helped HAMAS or done a myriad of other things...

However if we contrast the two scenarios, because I think it is important:

Scenario 1: Let us assume he orders the retaliation strike for the Drone being shot down - a bunch of Rank-and-file soldiers are killed, the Leadership is intact and then gets to say that the USA Murdered innocent soldiers.

That works counter to Americas best interest.

On the flip-side, letting every single Terrorist leader know that if they start flapping their gums and getting uppity, they will suddenly find themselves removed from this plane of existence without any collateral damage - that makes the leadership think really carefully about how they want to behave. Yes, the Civilians will still make them a Martyr of sorts, that is unavoidable - but the message that we will no longer target your people or your soldiers, we will target You, specifically. That is a very powerful message, it removes the possibility of Violence as an option, which means that Dialogue must happen.


Very subjective once again in regards to Afghanistan. Trump does not have much of a clue about how the armed forces works apart from how to dodge the draft. It is the same US armed forces under both presidents, I doubt trump would of sent them a blue print on how to retract in a better fashion than what they did under Biden. In regards to the attack on Gaza, what is it?? saint trump does not start wars, or war hawk trump is so likely to start a war the hamas would have been too paralyzed with fear to act? For me the blood rushing to your woody for trump appears to be coming from the part of your brain that controls unbiased critical thinking :bleh:

Subjective - perhaps - but the record remains consistent - multiple things happened under Obama, multiple things happened under Biden - Didn't happen under Trump. Biden changed the plan because he wanted a Photo-Op and it was a catastrophic failure - we cannot know if Trumps plan would have had the same issues - but given the overall de-escalation globally of conflict under Trump - yes, I give him that benefit.

I think Trump does not like war and the loss of *innocent* life - but I think he knows that judicious use of Violence is a necessary evil and your enemy needs to know it is an option.

If you kill 2-3 high ranking generals to make a point and in turn save thousands of lives - is that better, at least from a pragmatic view than the alternative. And yes - I will grant you that this is a form of the hTrolley problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem)


I'm getting real bored with this line highly subjective woulda, shoulda coulda rubbish :yawn:

Happened under Bush Sr.
Happened under Clinton.
Happened under GW Bush.
Happened under Obama.
Didn't happen under Trump.
Happened under Biden.

Definitely subjective and in no way a pattern... If Trump gets a second term and things cool off globally (existing wars ending and no new wars) - will you then admit that there is some substance to this?


So you foresee the history books covering US presidents and their historical impact as simply showing one photo of trump with just the caption of "Interesting" :laugh:

I mean, he's no George Washington or Jefferson. There will be the kabal of Leftie academics that will try and smear everything he did, but there will be those that will begrudgingly admit that he wasn't bad - there may even be a few of us at the other end who still have living memory of his Presidency that will be able to attest how good it was.

Like I said - Interestingly.

[1/32 man]

He was white and then he suddenly turned orange....just like that.

Is he orange or white?

We deserve an answer.

[1/32 man]

there may even be a few of us at the other end who still have living memory of his Presidency that will be able to attest how good it was.

Maaaate, yah dreaming. I have seen people describe him as reponsible for a milion covid deaths. The guy is incapable of doing anything useful for anyone except himself.

Please dont preach your lefty tolerant trumpiness here.

[TheDemonLord]

Maaaate, yah dreaming. I have seen people describe him as reponsible for a milion covid deaths. The guy is incapable of doing anything useful for anyone except himself.

Please dont preach your lefty tolerant trumpiness here.

And yet more people died under Biden from Covid.

Was the world a better place, with less war, less conflict, better economy etc. from 2016 - 2020 than before or after?

[sugilite]

The presumes I consider Fox to be the right wing media.
Again, It is not about you. I cannot believe i have to say again. Fox undeniably is the place where the massive majority of right wing america gets its "news". You not watching fox does not magically erase what they say and do.


I have heard that sentiment on multiple disparate channels. You asked for proof
You showed a video of 4 guys that likely judging her race on her Indian name. Furthermore what you actually said is "I have heard commentary from African Americans that they really don't like it when people who aren't fully black, playing the black card." Your so called "proof" video does not show them as "really not liking it" they simply think she is not black. Show me proof backing your actual quote. Don't worry, I won't wait ;)


And if part of your pitch is first black female president.
Yet curiously she never mentioned it once in her dnc speech.


One might say - Overcompensating.
So all the many previous gop presidents talking at past rnc events are also "overcompensating". Yet more sad weak misdirection?


In fact - as an aside, I was talking with an Iranian regular at my local Gym.
4 black guys walk intro a barbershop and a lone iranian walks into a gym = a sad joke if that is all you have in presenting "proof".


Definitely subjective and in no way a pattern
About the only serious point you made in that large batch of waffle.

[sugilite]

A dozen GOP (rip) lawyers endorse kamala, say trump unfit to lead.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-lawyers-who-advised-reagan-bush-endorse-harris-over-trump-2024-showdown

[1/32 man]

And yet more people died under Biden from Covid.

Never have I read that before....and if true, it was because trump tried to wash or wish it away with thoughts and prayers and disinfectant instead of taking real action.

It shows what a useless *&^t he is when a real crisis shows up and his bullshed cant fix it.

[TheDemonLord]

Never have I read that before....and if true, it was because trump tried to wash or wish it away with thoughts and prayers and disinfectant instead of taking real action.

It shows what a useless *&^t he is when a real crisis shows up and his bullshed cant fix it.

Of course you have not read it before - why would you want to be presented with any facts that make Trump look good...

So - for the detail - according to the CDC, up until Trump left office - there were 424,325 Covid Deaths (it is not specified if that is died with or died from...)

As at September 1, 2022 - over 617,491 additional Covid Deaths were reported (1,041,816 - 424,325)

Clearly from the Numbers, Trump did a better job by 1.5 times than Biden. Yet, you still think that Trump was terrible for Covid and Biden was great. Why is that?

Not to mention Project Lightspeed was implemented under Trump (remember how everyone laughed at him saying a Vaccine couldn't be created in such a short time period, remember all the Democrats saying how they wouldn't take a Trump Vaccine? No?)

[nerrrd]

And yet more people died under Biden from Covid.

Was the world a better place, with less war, less conflict, better economy etc. from 2016 - 2020 than before or after?

Hmmm, funny you should mention 2020, which is when the pandemic began. So President Trump had what, March to November? President Biden had the next four years, that's hardly an apples vs apples comparison.

[TheDemonLord]

Again, It is not about you. I cannot believe i have to say again. Fox undeniably is the place where the massive majority of right wing america gets its "news". You not watching fox does not magically erase what they say and do.

Is it - Fox viewing numbers are 1,304,000 for their nightly news segment. That is against 30+ million registered Republicans.

Even if we include the YT channel, that has 11 million subscribers.

To that end, I dont think I am such an Outlier as you claim. I would say that Facebook is probably the leading place where the right wing of America get their news.


You showed a video of 4 guys that likely judging her race on her Indian name. Furthermore what you actually said is "I have heard commentary from African Americans that they really don't like it when people who aren't fully black, playing the black card." Your so called "proof" video does not show them as "really not liking it" they simply think she is not black. Show me proof backing your actual quote. Don't worry, I won't wait ;)

Methinks you are shifting the goal post - that is one example, from CNN.

Here is another person https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtPlRZjYBow - Now - listen closely to what this person is saying:

Not African American and not descended from Slaves (like Rosa Parks)
and a preference that she acknowledge that she is Indian (and not "Black")

I will grant you I am distilling many different viewpoints into one Meta-view point - However, there is a subset of African Americans who take issue when Kamala tries to portray herself as one of them.

I should note - I am not a fan of Racial Politics in general - I am merely pointing out that what Trump said is in-line with that subset of Voters.


Yet curiously she never mentioned it once in her dnc speech.

Okay - I will take your word for it that she doesn't - however it does not invalidate all the chatter around her.


So all the many previous gop presidents talking at past rnc events are also "overcompensating". Yet more sad weak misdirection?

I had to go back to 2008 to find an RNC where a past Republican President spoke - so...

But to answer the point - the DNC could be summarized as 'Look at all these previous Presidents, see our Figurehead is just like them!'


4 black guys walk intro a barbershop and a lone iranian walks into a gym = a sad joke if that is all you have in presenting "proof".

You are asking for hard proof of other people nebulous opinions. A little uncharitable - Especially when voicing said opinions is not always met well.


About the only serious point you made in that large batch of waffle.

Okay - let me ask directly this - putting all your personal grievances for Trump to one side:

Compare Foreign Policy and its downstream effects of Obama, Biden and Trump - if you had to pick one to be the best - which one?

[TheDemonLord]

Hmmm, funny you should mention 2020, which is when the pandemic began. So President Trump had what, March to November? President Biden had the next four years, that's hardly an apples vs apples comparison.

I grant you it is not an entirely apples and apples comparison, as Biden had the benefit of the Vaccine that Trump helped develop. But the point remains from Feb-Jan, Trump had ~400K deaths and from Jan to September, Biden had ~600K deaths.

I put it to you that the President had very little impact on Covid.

[sugilite]

To that end, I dont think I am such an Outlier as you claim.
You placed yourself there sport, putting words in my mouth to make a point is weak. All the rest is yet more subjective waffle.


Methinks you are shifting the goal post
I'm sorry you consider me holding you to your words is inconvenient for you. You think finding an additional video with one single person (who still does not seem upset by it as you per your original quote) is adding anything to the discussion - must be a very tiny subset huh. trump has given up on it, maybe you should too.


I am merely pointing out that what Trump said is in-line with that subset of Voters.
So you think dumbarse pitching that to a room for of educated black journalists was a good idea?

the DNC could be summarized as 'Look at all these previous Presidents, see our Figurehead is just like them!'
You appear to be miffed the dems are doing what looks for all the world to me like good marketing.


You are asking for hard proof of other people nebulous opinions.
A refresher yet again - your exact words "I have heard commentary from African Americans that they really don't like it when people who aren't fully black, playing the black card."
Big statements should require big evidence, not my fault you picked a subject that you cannot back your big statement up with anything meaningful.


Compare Foreign Policy and its downstream effects of Obama, Biden and Trump - if you had to pick one to be the best - which one?
This subject is way too big and time consuming for me to research and give you an informed decision that I could stand by.

[pete376403]

Here is another person https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtPlRZjYBow - Now - listen closely to what this person is saying:

Not African American and not descended from Slaves (like Rosa Parks)
and a preference that she acknowledge that she is Indian (and not "Black")?

Kamala Harris' father is from Jamaica. How did black people get to Jamaica? Oh thats's right, slaves from Africa. "The Spaniards also introduced the first African slaves into the island. By the early 17th century, when most of the Taino had died out, the population of the island was about 3,000, including a small number of African slaves." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica

[pritch]

Kamala Harris' father is from Jamaica. How did black people get to Jamaica? Oh thats's right, slaves from Africa. "The Spaniards also introduced the first African slaves into the island. By the early 17th century, when most of the Taino had died out, the population of the island was about 3,000, including a small number of African slaves." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica

Exactly. As I have pointed out previously the difference between an African American and a Jamaican was just a few degrees on the compass of a slave ship.

[husaberg]

https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/v2/D5622AQFw8XwuVZMrYg/feedshare-shrink_800/feedshare-shrink_800/0/1683051012691?e=1727913600&v=beta&t=v7Kp-vTq6dEQsScbkbLnYOJK5roizLKLw4tkO5P2GMU

https://images.mktw.net/im-66493708?width=700&size=1.4733812949640288
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d79b218b1b774ca844dd69bd028faf06-lq

https://i.redd.it/nnkgkq4hoef51.png

https://preview.redd.it/nnkgkq4hoef51.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&7f82f053

https://preview.redd.it/nnkgkq4hoef51.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&7f82f053
https://preview.redd.it/nnkgkq4hoef51.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&7f82f053
https://preview.redd.it/nnkgkq4hoef51.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&7f82f053
https://preview.redd.it/nnkgkq4hoef51.png?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&7f82f053

[Laava]

And expressed as DNA….

[1/32 man]

Yet, you still think that Trump was terrible for Covid and Biden was great. Why is that?

Eerrr.....how do you know that is what I think. Maaate, you are assuming way too much.

From that I could assume that you are a drumper.... er trumpfer..... er orange person supporter. Couldn't I?

I didn't hear Biden suggest that injecting bleach was a good idea. Trump shits his pants and is an adderall addict so how would he know what is good for the health of the people.

[nerrrd]

I grant you it is not an entirely apples and apples comparison, as Biden had the benefit of the Vaccine that Trump helped develop. But the point remains from Feb-Jan, Trump had ~400K deaths and from Jan to September, Biden had ~600K deaths.

I put it to you that the President had very little impact on Covid.

President Trump deserves credit for fast tracking the development of the vaccines. Infectious diseases spread, though, and the longer it's out there, the more people catch it. The numbers will always be lowest at the beginning of a pandemic, vaccine or not.

[sugilite]

A lot of Trump news today - none of it good for trump.

Two top people in trumps foreign policy say Afghanistan pullout mess largely attributed to trump. Who knew blocking the current government and directly dealing with a terrorist regime and releasing 5000 of said regimes worst was a bad thing. Yet more ignorant trumpfuckery.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejqOEXYqpHE

More than two hundred former staff from Bush, McCain and Romney endorse Harris because they view trump as a direct threat to democracy. Yet we have 3 blind mice in this thread that think the gop still exists!
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/over-200-former-bush-mccain-and-romney-staffers-endorse-harris-the-alternative-is-simply-untenable

And trump has picked up a new indictment designed to skirt around the corrupt supreme courts ruling of crimes are all good for presidents to commit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USDBZhCn9Qc

Traditionally trump gets a polling bump when he picks up another indictment, so it will be very interesting to see what happens this time.
trump is the master of the delay, but i largely point the finger at soft cock merrick garland for not having a spine and going soft on criminal trump lest he upset some people. justice delayed is justice denied.

[F5 Dave]

Kamala Harris' father is from Jamaica. How did black people get to Jamaica? Oh thats's right, slaves from Africa. "The Spaniards also introduced the first African slaves into the island. By the early 17th century, when most of the Taino had died out, the population of the island was about 3,000, including a small number of African slaves." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica

Oh don't be so harsh. At least the Spanish were spreading the Good News and Redemption of Jesus.
Those other things just happened.
Amen and Halli-ewe-eja

[TheDemonLord]

Kamala Harris' father is from Jamaica. How did black people get to Jamaica? Oh thats's right, slaves from Africa. "The Spaniards also introduced the first African slaves into the island. By the early 17th century, when most of the Taino had died out, the population of the island was about 3,000, including a small number of African slaves." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jamaica

Tell that to the African American population.

Again - I don't like Racial Politics. I am merely repeating what I have heard African Americans say.

[TheDemonLord]

You placed yourself there sport, putting words in my mouth to make a point is weak. All the rest is yet more subjective waffle.

The argument you are making hinges on Fox being both a leader in Right Wing thought and a wholly Right Wing outlet. Given their market reach and (for example) the way they split with Tucker Carlson (again, not a huge fan) - I say that those hinges are rusty and fragile.


I'm sorry you consider me holding you to your words is inconvenient for you. You think finding an additional video with one single person (who still does not seem upset by it as you per your original quote) is adding anything to the discussion - must be a very tiny subset huh. trump has given up on it, maybe you should too.

Two separate and completely disparate groups (apart from Skin Colour) both expressing the same sentiment and yet somehow that is not enough to prove the sentiment exists.

Must I interview every African American and then post a percentage. You asked for proof that people think that - I have given two separate instances.


So you think dumbarse pitching that to a room for of educated black journalists was a good idea?

The Woke university indoctrinated journalists who would never vote for Trump in a million years, even if he offered them a night with Ivanka... Those journalists?

Perhaps he was speaking to another demographic. The Demographic of African Americans who feel taking-for-granted by the Democrat party and feel annoyed that they are pandered to and spoke down to by Woke Liberal Women.

So yes, I do think it was a good idea - because it gets Black voters talking about Trump - and there is a subset who will identify with that comment.


You appear to be miffed the dems are doing what looks for all the world to me like good marketing.

That is one viewpoint, another is that they are trying to prop up a puppet as legitimate. If she was so credible and such the obvious choice, surely she should be able to stand on her own merits.



A refresher yet again - your exact words "I have heard commentary from African Americans that they really don't like it when people who aren't fully black, playing the black card."
Big statements should require big evidence, not my fault you picked a subject that you cannot back your big statement up with anything meaningful.

I have given you two interviews, one with multiple people, expressing that sentiment. To say it does not exist (when it plainly does) is not factual. Now, you could dispute how far and wide that sentiment exists - that would at least be fair.

Here is another few quotes, from This Politico article in 2019 (https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/04/kamala-harris-black-voters-2020-075651):


That led to wide concern on the ground in key states like South Carolina that black candidates were not authentic enough in their petitions for black support.

A Lack of Authenticity around ones appeal based on Ethnicity. Or to put it more crudely: She Aint Black.


This subject is way too big and time consuming for me to research and give you an informed decision that I could stand by.

Okay - let me say this then: If you need to do that level of analysis to answer, then I get to say that the difference between all of them is minimal at best, with no clear winner.

Even if you feel Trump is the worst of all 3, that it is not by a significant margin - which goes a long way to disprove the claim of incompetence.

[Laava]

Those other things just happened.
No one was expecting that…

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb-p--iRFew

[Pursang]

....even if he offered them a night with Ivanka...

That seems to perfectly fit his profile and previous form!

[F5 Dave]

No one was expecting that…
Nice. . . Can't give rep to Laava until blah blah.

[pritch]

So Trump fucked up again. Another day, another photo op, his time at Arlington National Cemetery. He arrived for one of his stupidly inappropriate grinning, thumb up, photographs over the grave of a recent casualty of one of America's wars. Problem was that no photographs are permitted in this part of the cemetery, Section 60, unless taken by cemetery staff. This led to a verbal and allegedly physical confrontation between Trump campaign officials and Arlington staff before the Trump team took their photos. This is completely illegal and thus yet another Trump crime for which he probably will not be charged. We can but hope.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ckgwnn11x18o

[sugilite]

The argument you are making hinges on Fox being both a leader in Right Wing thought and a wholly Right Wing outlet.
I welcome you showing me a larger right wing media organization then?



I have given you two interviews, one with multiple people, expressing that sentiment. To say it does not exist (when it plainly does) is not factual. Now, you could dispute how far and wide that sentiment exists - that would at least be fair.
Fair?, mate, you are yet to show me anything showing support for your ""I have heard commentary from African Americans that they really don't like it when people who aren't fully black, playing the black card." Statement. Perhaps instead of whining, how about stumping up?


So yes, I do think it was a good idea - because it gets Black voters talking about Trump - and there is a subset who will identify with that comment.
Message well received - congratulations ex president trump :laugh:

https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Screenshot-2024-08-29-090901.jpg


That is one viewpoint, another is that they are trying to prop up a puppet as legitimate. If she was so credible and such the obvious choice, surely she should be able to stand on her own merits.
Her momentum is very impressive, looks like her campaign is making great decisions.



Okay - let me say this then: If you need to do that level of analysis to answer, then I get to say that the difference between all of them is minimal at best, with no clear winner.
Even if you feel Trump is the worst of all 3, that it is not by a significant margin - which goes a long way to disprove the claim of incompetence.

Sorry to call you back from your self appointed victory lap old chap, but these TWO HUNDRED grizzled experienced republican Alumni with all their inside experience of trump just explained much better than I why trump is not just a shit president but why he is also a direct threat to democracy.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25071901-bush-mccain-and-romney-alumni-for-harris-statement

https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Screenshot-2024-08-29-092133.jpg

If course if this is not enough proof for you, I could always search for something more robust, like a group of dems in a barber shop saying trump is shit?

[pritch]

President Trump deserves credit for fast tracking the development of the vaccines.

Nah. Trump fast tracked delivery of the vaccine when it became available. He had nothing to do with the development of the vaccine. It was a German discovery.

[nerrrd]

Nah. Trump fast tracked delivery of the vaccine when it became available. He had nothing to do with the development of the vaccine. It was a German discovery.

OK, delivery then. I'm ok with giving him credit either way.

[Laava]

Give him some credit for this lot too. Or better still, shoot the cunt. With a big dumb orange bullet.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350397312/donald-trump-makes-lewd-social-media-attack-kamala-harris

[nerrrd]

Give him some credit for this lot too. Or better still, shoot the cunt. With a big dumb orange bullet.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350397312/donald-trump-makes-lewd-social-media-attack-kamala-harris

Someone tried that, I guess the bullet wasn’t big enough or dumb enough. No credit for being a sleazy toxic male from me.

President Trump is an asshole. He exemplifies all the worst instincts of humanity in my opinion. But the idea that he’s some kind of malevolent Chauncey Gardiner figure that just stumbled into being President because half of the US is just as dumb as he is stretches credulity too far for me.

He’s clearly no genius, but he does seem to have a knack for getting away with things by fair means or foul, and keeping himself in the spotlight.

[F5 Dave]

Sorry, um why are you calling him the president?
Have you just woke up from coma?

[nerrrd]

No, still in the coma, this is all just a nightmare.

President Trump as in President(s) Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan etc.

[F5 Dave]

You don't know the 1/2 of it.

[Pursang]

The Best social media!

354959

[Pursang]

https://scontent.fbne5-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/454687628_884388393718598_2061613677308016948_n.jp g?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=sDr2y7dnmpEQ7kNvgGdNQEc&_nc_ht=scontent.fbne5-1.fna&oh=00_AYAQxRv2w-kiF0caC2ThdNV8c2QT2sh1LlSleJH0uYwZcA&oe=66DF45D6

[Pursang]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQQDx9VWUAAxnn7?format=jpg&name=900x900

[Laava]

I dont know how this is supposed to clean shit up when it is usually responsible for producing it!
Although it does seem somehow appropriate!

[Pursang]

I dont know how this is supposed to clean shit up when it is usually responsible for producing it!
Although it does seem somehow appropriate!

When it comes to the orange turd, it seems to be necessary to flush it away at least twice!!

A thorough scrubbing and disinfection will be essential to remove foul remnants in all areas, seen and unseen, that have been impacted by contact or have absorbed the odor!

[pritch]

Ironic that after doing everything possible to delay his various court cases interminably Trump's lawyers are now upset at a delay. Judge Merchand (?) has delayed sentencing until after the election for Trump's 34 fraud convictions.

Some pundits consider that Trump would have appealed his sentence to his corrupted Supreme Court and could possibly have been acquitted prior to the election. He now has to run as a convicted felon and if he loses the election the Supreme Court may not be so willing to go out on a limb for him.

[pete376403]

Ironic that after doing everything possible to delay his various court cases interminably Trump's lawyers are now upset at a delay. Judge Merchand (?) has delayed sentencing until after the election for Trump's 34 fraud convictions.

Some pundits consider that Trump would have appealed his sentence to his corrupted Supreme Court and could possibly have been acquitted prior to the election. He now has to run as a convicted felon and if he loses the election the Supreme Court may not be so willing to go out on a limb for him.
hadn't considered that. Was thinking more "how did they get the post election delay so if elected (god hep us all) he could pardon himself"

[Grumph]

hadn't considered that. Was thinking more "how did they get the post election delay so if elected (god hep us all) he could pardon himself"

Not a Federal crime.He couldn't pardon a State court verdict. Supreme Court is the only way to overturn it without winning an appeal -which is unlikely.

[husaberg]

Posted as a Xmas present for mechanical Santa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se-didBGn8A

[husaberg]

Trump is so weird.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90C5rZPTy5g

[pete376403]

stable genius explains child care:

[husaberg]

stable genius explains child care:
Trump sure says weird things, weirdly often....

[sugilite]

Well, Kamala just whopped trumps arse in the debate.
Even fox is leading with an article on how he lost the debate right near the top of their "news" page.
As soon as harris triggered trump on people leaving his rallies out of sheer exhaustion and boredom - he started basically yelling from that point on. She would duck, then trigger, then bash him for being reactive and weak - all with a smile and lightness. At one point she laughed at trump and you could just tell he wanted to cross the stage and strangle her :laugh:
She did a great job showing why he should never ever be president again that's for sure.

[Pursang]

Well, Kamala just whopped trumps arse in the debate.

She did a great job showing why he should never ever be president again that's for sure.

She also did a great job of demonstrating that she is well up to the task of being the US President.

Unlike trump, who's major skills are focused around cheating at golf and awarding himself his own club championships.

[pritch]

My reaction was pessimistic. Each side would claim they'd won. Thankfully it does seem the reaction is more realistic. Trump claims he won of course, pretty much everyone else considers he lost. And Yeah, I sat through the whole thing.

Almost had to laugh at Trump saying immigrants are eating people's pets. This is one of two weird stories currently circulating on the right. The other involves an immigrant gang in Aurora taking over some apartment blocks and committing crimes including child sex trafficking. (What is it with Republicans and child sex trafficking?). This news was "confirmed" by Lauren Boebert no less. There are even reports that the Hell's Angels are en route to sort out the gang. Apparently the truth of the matter is much less exciting. The property is owned by a slum landlord who won't fix any of the many problems on the property so the tenants have started a rent strike.

Makes a change from stories about litter trays being supplied in school toilets for kids who identify as cats.

[pritch]

After checking reaction around the Web it's interesting that the near unanimous view is that Harris won the debate. A rather more realistic reaction than I expected. I did come across one YouTube channel though where the public comments were pretty much 50/50 Trump won and Trump lost but it was rigged. One theory as to the rigging of the debate relates to her ear rings which are obviously capable of receiving voice communications. Personally I lack expertise on communication capable ear jewellery so... Reading the public comments there was just depressing really.

[neels]

After checking reaction around the Web it's interesting that the near unanimous view is that Harris won the debate. A rather more realistic reaction than I expected. I did come across one YouTube channel though where the public comments were pretty much 50/50 Trump won and Trump lost but it was rigged. One theory as to the rigging of the debate relates to her ear rings which are obviously capable of receiving voice communications. Personally I lack expertise on communication capable ear jewellery so... Reading the public comments there was just depressing really.
Seems to be a pretty standard response from Trump and the more deranged of his supporters, claiming to have won, while at the same time seemingly acknowledging having lost but only because it was rigged.

The election being stolen conspiracy theories have already started before the election has even happened, no doubt setting up in advance for such claims when they actually lose.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/aug/12/trump-overturn-result-presidential-election-vote

[PrincessBandit]

It was a pleasure to see Trump’s whiney heiny well and truly whupped. Harris came across as a refreshing update to the Presidential image while the Orange orangutang continued to demonstrate he wouldn’t recognise “Presidential” if it smacked him in his little pouty lemon-sucking countenance.
Tbh, Kamala could have probably stood there and not uttered a word and still come out looking like a winner against the Dong.

[Pursang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0QcyJ9ik1Q

[HenryDorsetCase]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2024/sep/12/donald-trump-kamala-harris-us-presidential-election-debate-news-updates


What would we expect from a career coward who had his pasty pustule covered orange arse handed to him?

[neels]

Trump getting fact checked by Germany,

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/germany-responds-to-donald-trumps-debate-comments-on-energy-with-a-dash-of-sarcasm/

[pritch]

The largest organisation representing police unions in the USA has endorsed convicted felon Donald J Trump for president.

[Pursang]

The largest organisation representing police unions in the USA has endorsed convicted felon Donald J Trump for president.

Have we not seen enough US television, reality & drama, over the last 50 years, to realize that a not insignificant percentage of US police officers have some authoritarian/fascist inclinations?

[onearmedbandit]

Have we not seen enough US television, reality & drama, over the last 50 years, to realize that a not insignificant percentage of US police officers have some authoritarian/fascist inclinations?

Well that *does* make for good viewing. Not many people are interested unless there's scandal. "On tonight's episode of Law and Order, everyone acts normally and no one abuses their power or position for their own gain and everyone gets along with each other."

[neels]

The largest organisation representing police unions in the USA has endorsed convicted felon Donald J Trump for president.
Not hugely surprising, he's talking about seconding police to help round up illegal immigrants for deportation, so a great opportunity for job creation and beating up minorities.

[Pursang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BrCvZmSnKA

https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/azxqN0q_700bwp.webp

[pritch]

Fifty days out from the US election Trump Inc is launching a new investment opportunity. This time it's a crypto currency venture. After the many and varied grifts his supporters must be as broke as they are stupid. Conflict of interest? What's that?

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/08/31/trump-crypto-family-affair-00176764

[1/32 man]

always the grifter looking for the next opportunity to separate fools from their money....

I see he was marked safe from gunfire near his location....pity.

Ear ear

[neels]

Someone else trying to have a crack at Trump.

Americans seem to be obsessed with assault rifles, if you want to do the job properly you need to use the correct tool

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350416392/live-gunman-hid-bushes-close-trump-had-assault-rifle-scope-and-go-pro-camera

[pritch]

Details of the events at Trump’s golf club are still a bit murky. A suspect has been arrested and named. A witness had seen him fleeing in a black Nissan and photographed the vehicle - and it’s plate.

Meanwhile in response Trump has issued a plea for donations. Of course.



Update:

Strangely the would be assassin is another Republican. Apparently he voted for Trump previously but had become disenchanted. For one thing he was evidently a strong supporter of Ukraine. He had been communicating with various alternative Republican presidential candidates on social media: Vivek Ramaswamy, Tulsi Gabbard, & Nikki Haley.

Elon musk has asked on Xitter why nobody is taking a shot at Biden or Harris. He may get a visit from the FBI and learn that free speech has limits.

[Laava]

Someone else trying to have a crack at Trump.

Americans seem to be obsessed with assault rifles, if you want to do the job properly you need to use the correct tool

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350416392/live-gunman-hid-bushes-close-trump-had-assault-rifle-scope-and-go-pro-camera
Assault rifles are what all the tv and movie heroes use… remember Americans are a simple folk!

[nerrrd]

At least the Secret Service seem to have upped their game this time.

He’ll be starting to get a little paranoid…

[Pursang]

Update:

Strangely the would be assassin is another Republican. Apparently he voted for Trump previously but had become disenchanted.

Merch Marketing Ideas

Do you think I should make these available for sale!

It's a growing movement and obviously gaining some momentum!

Sure it's distasteful...but trumps people love that stuff!

https://preview.redd.it/merch-marketing-ideas-v0-s2fjan43s5pd1.jpg?width=507&format=pjpg&auto=webp&69835bdd

[pritch]

Have we not seen enough US television, reality & drama, over the last 50 years, to realize that a not insignificant percentage of US police officers have some authoritarian/fascist inclinations?

And that's before a significant proportion of them misused steroids and became susceptible to "roid rages".

[jim.cox]

Sure it's distasteful...but trumps people love that stuff!

https://preview.redd.it/merch-marketing-ideas-v0-s2fjan43s5pd1.jpg?width=507&format=pjpg&auto=webp&69835bdd

You 'aint going to sell many with an AK47 on it - needs to be a "Real 'Merkin Weapon" like an AR14

[onearmedbandit]

Elon musk has asked on Xitter why nobody is taking a shot at Biden or Harris. He may get a visit from the FBI and learn that free speech has limits.

To be fair if this forum was American based there might be a few people in this thread that got a visit from the FBI too lol

[PrincessBandit]

Just listened to Vance blaming the dems for the assassination attempts justifying by stating “no one has tried to assassinate Kamala Harris”. Let’s hope that it wasn’t a dog whistle to red neck Trump supporters. If that isn’t inflammatory I don’t know what is. And still after both Harris and Biden have condemned the attempts on the orange orangutang.

[Laava]

Didnt Elon Musk(piss smell) say similar?
However Vance may just be thinking aloud about how Kamala is not the detestable kind of arsehole that gets shot at?

[R650R]

At least the Secret Service seem to have upped their game this time.

He’ll be starting to get a little paranoid…

When you look at the terrain it’s pretty good attention to detail to spot a barrel sticking through the chain link fence. They’d just about have to be right on top of him which they can’t otherwise they’d have nailed him.
Apparently there are some 7000 secret service agents nationwide so bell curves and all there’s got to be a few sharper ones about.

[pritch]

When you look at the terrain it’s pretty good attention to detail to spot a barrel sticking through the chain link fence. They’d just about have to be right on top of him which they can’t otherwise they’d have nailed him.
Apparently there are some 7000 secret service agents nationwide so bell curves and all there’s got to be a few sharper ones about.

The circumstances seem a bit odd. Apparently this golf trip wasn't preplanned. it was a spur of the moment thing almost. Of course Trump still travels round in a convoy big enough to massage his ego so he could be spotted.

[Grumph]

The circumstances seem a bit odd. Apparently this golf trip wasn't preplanned. it was a spur of the moment thing almost. Of course Trump still travels round in a convoy big enough to massage his ego so he could be spotted.

It's reported the guy was there for 12 hours or so. Fairly good bet he'd play golf at some point. He's predictable in that at least.

[Laava]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/350419472/elon-musk-deletes-post-about-harris-and-biden-assassination-after-widespread

[Grumph]

I see Vance has come out and threatened to pull the US out of NATO unless the EU backs off it's attempt to get Musk to obey hate speech and misinformation laws on X.

Given how much money Musk has allegedly put into the Trump/Vance ticket you've got to assume he wants something back in return.