Trump - 4 more years of this at least...

[husaberg]

A case for using RICO againast trump


First, there was an allegedly criminal effort to win the presidency, including through a foreign-influence campaign.

Second, there was the allegedly criminal effort to keep the presidency, which included obstructing the Mueller investigation, suppressing disclosure of the Stormy Daniels payment, obstructing the disclosure of Trump’s taxes and obstructing the impeachment investigations.

Third, there was the allegedly criminal effort to monetize the presidency, including by using Trump’s hotels and golf clubs in ways that may constitute corruption.

Fourth, there was the allegedly criminal effort to extend the presidency and block a peaceful transition of power through the Jan. 6 insurrection and the obstruction of Congress’ certification of the vote.

Fifth, there was the allegedly criminal effort to protect Trump’s future political prospects by obstructing the House’s Jan. 6 commission.

Sixth, and finally, there was the allegedly criminal effort to conceal state secrets at Mar-a-Lago.


Based on the evidence presented so far by the Jan. 6 committee, which is focused only on the insurrection, I personally believe the evidence could support a RICO prosecution comprised of a hub, with Trump, Roger Stone, Michael Flynn and other members of his inner circle at the center, and 10 different spokes of criminal activities that accumulate to a common goal.

Jim Walden
Jim Walden is the managing partner of the law firm Walden Macht & Haran. A former federal prosecutor and assistant U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of New York.

[Laava]

Rico sounds like a hitman. :ar15::ar15::ar15:

[husaberg]

Rico sounds like a hitman. :ar15::ar15::ar15:

Well its manily used on organized crime.
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO)
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/rico-racketeer-influenced-and-corrupt-organizations-act-statute

Arson
Bribery
Counterfeiting
Distribution of a controlled substance
Embezzlement
Extortion
Gambling
Homicide
Kidnapping
Mail fraud
Money laundering
Robbery
Wire fraud
Witness tampering

PENALTIES UNDER THE RICO ACT
A conviction under RICO has serious consequences. Not only does the RICO statute provide for criminal penalties including 20 years of prison, but the financial penalties are severe. A person convicted can face a fine of either $250,000 or double the amount of proceeds earned from illicit activity. The prison time can increase to up to a life sentence depending on the underlying crime that was committed.

In the establishment of RICO, there was the fear that assets associated with the enterprise would disappear before a final judgment was issued. RICO rules of procedure allow the government to freeze the assets of the defendant prior to the case even going to trial. The reasoning behind this was that making the government wait until a guilty verdict was entered would allow time for these assets to be well hidden.

In the event of a conviction, forfeiture of the defendant’s entire interest in the enterprise is handed over to the government. Because of the loss of these assets, the enterprise can suffer irreparable harm and even dismantlement.

Prior to RICO, evidence or verdicts from previous criminal or civil litigation were simply not allowed to be presented for a jury’s consideration.

RICO changed all that and made it possible for testimony and evidence to be introduced to the court in order to show a pattern of organized or intentional illegal behavior or practices. Prosecutors are now able to present previous charges and verdict outcomes, even if the defendant had been acquitted of previous criminal charges. RICO disallows defense attorneys to shelter their client’s previous criminal or civil litigation history from the eyes of the court. This is especially true if the defendant’s criminal and civil litigation can prove that the defendant not only engaged in illegal acts, but that those acts formed a pattern.

[F5 Dave]

Smile and wave boys.

[pritch]

Interesting Twitter exchange between a Trump supporter and 'Stormy Daniels.'

[Laava]

Classic! What kind of retard would step in to defend that which has already been admitted? Oh right, a dyed in the skin Trump supporter! Hahaha!

[husaberg]

https://youtu.be/7OeeHz0uNdM

China is paying for the Wall

[husaberg]

Oh Nose......

Judge rules Pence must testify in Jan. 6 attack probe.
WASHINGTON, March 28 (Reuters) - A federal judge has ruled that former U.S. Vice President Mike Pence must testify to a grand jury about conversations he had with former President Donald Trump leading up to the Jan. 6, 2021, attack on the U.S. Capitol, a source familiar with the ruling said on Tuesday.
The source, confirming reports by CNN and NBC, said the judge's decision compels Trump's former vice president, and potential challenger for the Republican presidential nomination in 2024, to appear before the federal grand jury but shields him from testifying about Jan. 6, 2021, itself.
In February, a source told Reuters Pence was preparing to resist a grand jury subpoena to secure his testimony.

Ahead of the Jan. 6 events, Trump had repeatedly lambasted Pence, publicly and privately, for refusing to try to prevent Congress from certifying Biden’s win in the 2020 election, sources told Reuters at the time.

Representatives for Special Prosecutor Jack Smith, who is leading the U.S. Department of Justice's investigation into Trump and his allies' alleged efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss.....

[1/32 man]

I feel a bit for Pennypence.

He was the total Trumpi suck up and then he was abused by the chosen one "weak Mike Pence" and now he is the poor sod who has to face the legal eagles.

[mashman]

Manhattan DA lawyers feared Stormy Daniels case against Trump was too weak to bring without other criminal charges, report says (https://www.businessinsider.com/manhattan-da-lawyers-feared-stormy-daniels-trump-indictment-weak-standalone-2023-3)

"Experts say the case is far from a slam-dunk". Oh no. Really? Again, and again, and again, I guess "the convoluted nature of the anticipated charges could give "reasonable doubt" to jurors hearing the case, according to Bederow." wouldn't be that hard to prove "reasonable doubt". Will it be yet more pain for the TDS crowd or will they hang on a little longer for the pound of flesh they think they so richly deserve... who knows, it seems almost as if anything can happen in the next half hour... or at least the next month after the hiatus of the jury. Such a familiar pattern, it's almost as if......... nah.

[F5 Dave]

I feel a bit for Pennypence.

He was the total Trumpi suck up and then he was abused by the chosen one "weak Mike Pence" and now he is the poor sod who has to face the legal eagles.

Lie down with dogs and you are going to get fleas.

[sugilite]

Trump Finally Indicted
For one of the first times ever, Trump will finally start facing some accountability for his actions. I'm actually in two minds about it, as I think it is small potatoes to be honest, but a start none the less.
Georgia is the big potato - I'm looking forward to that one.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-indicted-manhattan-da-probe-stormy-daniels-hush-money-payment


In other news, wow, I had no idea Trump freed 5000 taliban prisoners. This video highlights the sheer hypocrisy of the GOP whinging about today's issues as if it was not the Trump administration that bought them about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV2lZE_ZzZY&list=WL&index=3

[pritch]

Yesterday it was announced that the grand jury in the Manhattan DA case was taking a month off. The disappointment of the pundits was palpable. The mood has changed now that we know the jury is taking a month off because they have voted to indict Trump. So Trump makes history again.

[Pursang]

"WITCH HUNT" So when he is convicted.....do they Burn him or Drown him?

[onearmedbandit]

Drown him! Then if he dies we will know he wasn't a witch at all.

[pritch]

He's taking it as well as you'd expect.

[Berries]

Don't Google 'Stormy Daniels in a Tea Cup.'

Well, not from your work computer.

[pritch]

Some sources are reporting there are 34 counts in the indictment. That ditzy jury forewoman implied it would be massive and 34 charges would seem to be that. And the grand jury are still investigating. Or will be after their break.

[HenryDorsetCase]

LOCK HIM UP!

LOCK HIM UP!


LOCK HIM UP!

Stormy Daniels - American of the year, this year and every year.

Remember she described him as "yeti-pubes, mushroom helmet, smaller than average".

[1/32 man]

LOCK HIM UP!

LOCK HIM UP!


LOCK HIM UP!

Stormy Daniels - American of the year, this year and every year.

Remember she described him as "yeti-pubes, mushroom helmet, smaller than average".

Lorks a lordy (not the demon kind) what a giggle

[sugilite]

Drown him! Then if he dies we will know he wasn't a witch at all.

Sugilite Approves this action ;)

[husaberg]

Manhattan DA lawyers feared Stormy Daniels case against Trump was too weak to bring without other criminal charges, report says (https://www.businessinsider.com/manhattan-da-lawyers-feared-stormy-daniels-trump-indictment-weak-standalone-2023-3)

"Experts say the case is far from a slam-dunk". Oh no. Really? Again, and again, and again, I guess "the convoluted nature of the anticipated charges could give "reasonable doubt" to jurors hearing the case, according to Bederow." wouldn't be that hard to prove "reasonable doubt". Will it be yet more pain for the TDS crowd or will they hang on a little longer for the pound of flesh they think they so richly deserve... who knows, it seems almost as if anything can happen in the next half hour... or at least the next month after the hiatus of the jury. Such a familiar pattern, it's almost as if......... nah.


The reason why it way not be a slam dunk is pretty simple its nothing to do with guilt its they have to prove his intent.
its clear he made the payments to cover up the affair but they have to prove why.

There are a number of possible reasons why Trump might want to hide the payments to Daniels aside from covering up a campaign finance violation, Bederow said.

"What if he did that to protect his own reputation, to protect his wife from humiliation, or some personal reason?" Bederow said. "That's not an intent to defraud."

[TheDemonLord]

Drown him! Then if he dies we will know he wasn't a witch at all.

I heard he doesn't, in fact, weigh the same as a Duck.

Nor has anyone built a bridge out of Trump.

[Grumph]

I see someone is supposed to have said to Ms Daniels "Trump wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole " to which she answered "No, it was three inches "

She has style.

[husaberg]

I see someone is supposed to have said to Ms Daniels "Trump wouldn't touch you with a ten foot pole " to which she answered "No, it was three inches "

She has style.

Wasn't it her that described it to be looking remarkably like this.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTzeFmWBpz7IXzi60q-xumCzG9MlqnlrmSX4A&usqp=CAU



“It may have been the least impressive sex I’d ever had, but clearly, he didn’t share that opinion.”
She describes Trump’s penis as “smaller than average”
“He knows he has an unusual penis,” Like a toadstool …

[Pursang]

Mr. Toad's Wild Ride!
.
352719

[pritch]

Newsflash!

[husaberg]

Newsflash!

Odd, it gives his team a pretty good chance to overturn any conviction under appeal.

[R650R]

Will be interesting to see what happens as this will set a precedent for other presidents to be charged for other crimes... Clinton’s, Bush et al......

Since when did authorities advertise arrests in advance when they 100% know the perp and his location????

I think this is a side show to cover up the fall of Ukraine and the ousting of Zelensky. Russia is brokering a peace deal via China and even zelensky aludes to its all about to end. So let’s trot out the Trump show probably with a side dish of finding MH370, missing Madeline girl, and some routine climate storm alarmism somewhere in world...

[pritch]

Since when did authorities advertise arrests in advance when they 100% know the perp and his location????


It was Trump who advertised it, not the authorities. He just got the day wrong. Other than that the grand jury voted to indict, the authorities haven't said much at all.
Virtually everything we are reading, hearing, or watching, is speculation.

If Trump does not make himself available, the procedure is for the Governor of New York to formally request the Governor of Florida to hand him over. The Governor of Florida has stated he will refuse. That's interesting, because this situation is covered in the US Constitution which states that on request the person must be handed over.

[pritch]

Meanwhile on Russian TV...

[R650R]

Virtually everything we are reading, hearing, or watching, is speculation.



Sums up this entire thread nicely ;) Speculation infers some kind of refinement, that’s why most of us refer to it as pure uncut hopium, dangerously addictive. Too much of it and you’ll start dyeing your hair blue.

[pritch]

A picture worth a thousand words.

[mashman]

Meanwhile on Russian TV...

Yeah, the judge barred all cameras but russian TV. Journalists describe a packed courtroom. Yeah, a picture does indeed say a thousand words.

[sugilite]

Yeah, the judge barred all cameras but russian TV. Journalists describe a packed courtroom. Yeah, a picture does indeed say a thousand words.

Silly Russians, they could not even get his title right, it is not State TV Host, but rather Reality TV Host.

[mashman]

Silly Russians, they could not even get his title right, it is not State TV Host, but rather Reality TV Host.

Shirley a gameshow host given the landscape :shifty:

[TheDemonLord]

I will admit - I did see a Meme that made me chuckle:

It was from a raging Lefty (that I don't agree with) - but here goes:


"America being saved by a Porn Star is the most American thing ever"

I chortled, despite disagreeing, it was still pretty funny.

[pritch]

Interesting clip of Trump and escorts leaving the court room. The guy in front of him just lets the door swing back so Tump has to push it open himself. A bit ignorant of the guy but it must be a while since somebody didn't hold the door open for Trump.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Silly Russians, they could not even get his title right, it is not State TV Host, but rather Reality TV Host.

"Failed Social Media Influencer"

"Yeti pubes, mushroom dick, smaller than average"

[Stylo]

"Failed Social Media Influencer"

"Yeti pubes, mushroom dick, smaller than average"

Watching Trump in Court today was magic. He was a 76 year old 9 year old boy so out of his depth he couldn't actually comprehend the words used and the charges that he faces. Looking at his face was priceless.

He has no idea. This is so funny. Guilty as charged. Thanks Donald

[husaberg]

"Failed Social Media Influencer"

"Yeti pubes, mushroom dick, smaller than average"

Worst 90 seconds and most unimpressive sex of a pornstar who has made over 1000 movies
“the worst 90 seconds of my life”
'Least impressive sex I ever had'

[Berries]

Is that you Joanne?

[R650R]

More hopium aye.... no actual arrest as he voluntarily attended court and now the case has been postponed til December. I guess that’s how long of a distraction they need to clean up the ukraine saga...

[Pursang]

No actual arrest...True because he responded to the Summons to attend the Arraignment.
https://ww2.nycourts.gov/COURTS/nyc/criminal/glossary.shtml#Arraignment-glossary

From NYC Criminal Court - Glossary of Terms: Just so we all understand the whole process, moving forward.

Arrest - When the police take a person into custody on probable cause with or without a warrant.

Summons - An appearance ticket requiring a defendant to appear before the court for arraignment on an underlying accusatory instrument.

Accusatory instrument - A written accusation filed with the court charging the defendant with one or more offenses.

Indictment - A document that contains the felony (and perhaps also misdemeanor) charges that were voted by the grand jury.

Arraignment - The court proceeding during which a person is informed of the charges against him or her.

Grand Jury - A group of citizens who decide whether the prosecutor has enough evidence to pursue felony (and perhaps also misdemeanor) charges against a person.

Prosecutor - A lawyer who represents the government in criminal cases (also known as the Assistant District Attorney or A.D.A., the People, or the prosecution).

Offense - Conduct for which a person may be sentenced to a fine or jail. This is a very broad term and includes felonies, misdemeanors, violations and infractions.

Defendant - A person or corporation charged with committing an offense.

Felony - An offense for which a sentence to a term of imprisonment in excess of one year may be imposed. For the purpose of sentence, felonies are divided into five categories or classes: A, B, C, D and E felonies. Class A felonies are divided into two sub-categories: A-I and A-II felonies. Class A felonies carry the longest jail sentences and class E felonies carry the shortest jail sentences for felony cases. Jail sentences for misdemeanor and violations or infractions are even shorter.

Release on Recognizance (ROR) - To be released from custody without bail while a case is pending. This is often referred to as parole.

Trial - A court proceeding during which a judge or jury decides whether a person is guilty or not guilty of the charges against him or her.

Testify (testimony) - To speak under oath.

Conviction - When the court enters a plea of guilty or a finding of guilt by a jury or the Court.

Sentence - A punishment prescribed by law and imposed by a judge following a conviction.

[pritch]

More hopium aye.... no actual arrest as he voluntarily attended court and now the case has been postponed til December. I guess that’s how long of a distraction they need to clean up the ukraine saga...

You might have to explain the connection between a judge employed by the New York state government and events in Ukraine?

The judge is bending over backwards in an effort to avoid a gag order on Trump but Trump is not reading the signs. If a gag order is in force and he carries on as he is now he could potentially find himself in a cell. Again, the judge will try to avoid it but Trump just can't take a hint.

[F5 Dave]

Why are you talking to that cretin? Ukraine is probably some conspiracy of the Jews and lizard people to truck driver politics. No intelligent interaction will come from that quarter.

Honk honk. Beep beep. I'm BJ McKay and this is my best friend Bear. AhhDuh.

[R650R]

You might have to explain the connection between a judge employed by the New York state government and events in Ukraine?

The judge is bending over backwards in an effort to avoid a gag order on Trump but Trump is not reading the signs. If a gag order is in force and he carries on as he is now he could potentially find himself in a cell. Again, the judge will try to avoid it but Trump just can't take a hint.

We all know everything’s run like an old boys network. The charges against Trump are fairly minor in grand scheme of things it’s just a helpful soundbite distraction.
The media sold us the story that evil Putin was waging war against Ukraine, but he wouldn’t win as he was running out of weapons, had cancer, had dementia and would be ousted by the oligarchs, and then ousted by the citizens. It turned out none of that happened except for the war part which is stillness going on.
The USA and other countries donate (get rid of old stock) weapons and the military industrial complex gets to make billions selling the replacements to USA taxpayers.
The longer all this drags on the clearer the picture becomes to average joe. So the elite need a smokescreen to distract us while Russia grinds away at what is left of the Ukraine eligible fighting population before zelinsky is forced into a settlement or exit.
There’s too many questions that will be asked and lucky we have the trump show to distract

[Pursang]

Dear Ol' Average Joe is Very F'n Average.

In fact...50% of the population are Below Average!.....:yes:

[R650R]

Dear Ol' Average Joe is Very F'n Average.

In fact...50% of the population are Below Average!.....:yes:

THe scary thing is 10% of the population are now considered too dumb by the army to even be trained as a basic soldier...

[pritch]

This is an announcement from Gym Jordan, Congressional Judiciary Committee chair, to advise he is taking his clown show to New York. There is also a reply from a spokesperson for Alvin Bragg the prosecutor who has attracted Jordan's ire by indicting his Lord and Saviour Donald J Trump. So far it's Bragg 1 Jordan 0.


Sorry, I can't get them in the right order.

[neels]

This is an announcement from Gym Jordan, Congressional Judiciary Committee chair, to advise he is taking his clown show to New York. There is also a reply from a spokesperson for Alvin Bragg the prosecutor who has attracted Jordan's ire by indicting his Lord and Saviour Donald J Trump. So far it's Bragg 1 Jordan 0.
Which just suggests that there are no grounds to challenge the charges, so the only option left is to play the man, presumably in the hope they can get rid of him in favour of someone more sympathetic.

Or the timing could just be complete coincidence

[pritch]

Which just suggests that there are no grounds to challenge the charges, so the only option left is to play the man, presumably in the hope they can get rid of him in favour of someone more sympathetic.

Or the timing could just be complete coincidence

In todays news Jordan has been presented with a fifty page legal action alleging he is unlawfully interfering in an ongoing criminal action in New York.
He was warned and he should be concerned because that's exactly what he has been doing.



Update: The action is primarily designed to stop Jordan's ongoing "investigation" including the issuing of subpoenas to current or former staff of the Manhattan District Attorney.

[husaberg]

THe scary thing is 10% of the population are now considered too dumb by the army to even be trained as a basic soldier...
Thats all right, they can become truck drivers just like you.....:2thumbsup

[pritch]

Thats all right, they can become truck drivers just like you.....:2thumbsup

Now, now. We don't want excessively stupid people in charge of high velocity behemoths on our roads.

[husaberg]

Now, now. We don't want excessively stupid people in charge of high velocity behemoths on our roads.
I hear what you are saying
We dont want more excessively stupid people in charge of high velocity behemoths on our roads.

TBH i haven't seen a army truck driver for a long time, but they used to be all over the road.

[Laava]

Speaking of stupid people…
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/blob:https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/d7e255ea-1aa0-41ff-9cd9-2e5f60d686e4

[pritch]

Trump enabler Gym Jordan is cranking up another of his "inquiries." This one is to be about crime. The Republicans have been watching FOX "News" for too long. The Republicans and Fox are always talking about high crime in the big cities as an indication that Democrats, who tend to control big cities, are soft on crime. This, however, is untrue. Chicago has a big reputation for crime, but looked at on a per capita basis, it ranks about 30th most years. The most violent crime per capita occurs in Mississippi, Alabama, and the other southern states. Jordan's home state Ohio though does feature large.

[pritch]

Apparently the Washington Post reports that Trump is being investigated for "wire fraud." This is new and relates to the hundreds of millions worth of donations that he raised on the basis of his claim that the election was stolen.

I guess, since he just filed a new breach of contract action against Michael Cohen, that he hasn't had his fill of legal actions yet. He may not have known about this latest investigation though.

[1/32 man]

“New York hates you “

What a laugh!

[sugilite]

Looks like poor meatball has oversauced it as the gop inexplicably marches on to put forward an unelectable Trump as their 24 candidate :facepalm:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/19/desantis-dc-trump-endorsement-00092695

[TheDemonLord]

Looks like poor meatball has oversauced it as the gop inexplicably marches on to put forward an unelectable Trump as their 24 candidate :facepalm:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/04/19/desantis-dc-trump-endorsement-00092695

You say Inexplicable, I say inevitable.

You say Unelectable, I say....


And an interesting note from someone who isn't a conservative commentator:

"Trump is as 'unelectable' now as we presumed he was in 2016"

Which may be prescient.

[neels]

You say Inexplicable, I say inevitable.

You say Unelectable, I say....


And an interesting note from someone who isn't a conservative commentator:

"Trump is as 'unelectable' now as we presumed he was in 2016"

Which may be prescient.
This is true.

People thought americans couldn't possibly be that stupid last time, but they proved that they could, so no reason why it wouldn't happen again.

It may depend very much on who the democrats put up, the win in 2016 was in part due to people voting not for trump, but against hillary.

[TheDemonLord]

This is true.

People thought americans couldn't possibly be that stupid last time, but they proved that they could, so no reason why it wouldn't happen again.

It may depend very much on who the democrats put up, the win in 2016 was in part due to people voting not for trump, but against hillary.

And then Biden proved just how great a president Trump was. I can remember it - low inflation, world peace, cheap petrol.

I could do with some of that again...

[sugilite]

And an interesting note from someone who isn't a conservative commentator:

"Trump is as 'unelectable' now as we presumed he was in 2016"


Was that non commentators name TheDeludedLord by any chance?
For that premise to work, all the voters would of needed to have gone for a rip van winkle nap for the following 8 years.
To hold onto that sentiment is akin to whilst in the process of drowning being thrown a life ring filled with concrete.

Now, normally I would of said that the Dems have a great chance of seizing defeat from the jaws of victory with another round of circular firing squads - but now we have the extremest magas firmly taking over that title.

[TheDemonLord]

Was that non commentators name TheDeludedLord by any chance?

No, I couldn't honestly tell you who it was - but IIRC it was on a CNN panel. It was an off-hand comment, but I found it most interesting the comparison between Trump in 2016 and Trump in 2024.


For that premise to work, all the voters would of needed to have gone for a rip van winkle nap for the following 8 years.
To hold onto that sentiment is akin to whilst in the process of drowning being thrown a life ring filled with concrete.

Disagree, they only have to look at how their lives were under Trump vs under Biden. Good Economy, Cheap Fuel, World Peace vs Record inflation, Energy dependence and War. Trump just has to ask 'Is your life better under Biden?' - and all but the most die-hard of Democrat will likely say 'No, not really'.


Now, normally I would of said that the Dems have a great chance of seizing defeat from the jaws of victory with another round of circular firing squads - but now we have the extremest magas firmly taking over that title.

Maybe, maybe not.

The issue I think is that those who voted for Trump in 2020 will still vote for him in 2024. Trump is not exactly a swing-voter candidate. Will the people who voted for Biden in 2020 vote for Biden in 2024?

If not Biden, then who? There's no one in the Democrat that has the fortitude to go against the Woke activist base, Tulsi tried, then she realised the Dems were cancer and left (heh). So you either have the likes of Biden, Pelosi et al. Old and borderline senile who just go along with the activists because it's easier - or you have someone younger who is a die-hard zealot.

[sugilite]

Disagree, they only have to look at how their lives were under Trump vs under Biden. Good Economy, Cheap Fuel, World Peace vs Record inflation, Energy dependence and War. Trump just has to ask 'Is your life better under Biden?' - and all but the most die-hard of Democrat will likely say 'No, not really'.


Last time you rolled this argument out, I said nothing has changed since the mid terms gop disaster. Now things have changed. The stolen election lie is now unraveling with fox settling on the first day and there is still the smartmatic one to come. The fake electors in Georgia are now turning on each other - uh ohhh, and gop are still going against the grain implementing draconian abortion laws and that is just to name a few. None of this will sway swing voters back to trump.

The first time you posted in the original trump thread I knew a day of reckoning will come for you. You are absolutely going to get fucked by trump. Lucky for you he only has a 3 inch mushroom shaped knob, the pain for you will be inflicted by a death of a thousand small thrusts followed by a big climax at the end ;)

[R650R]

No, I couldn't honestly tell you who it was - but IIRC it was on a CNN panel. It was an off-hand comment, but I found it most interesting the comparison between Trump in 2016 and Trump in 2024.



Disagree, they only have to look at how their lives were under Trump vs under Biden. Good Economy, Cheap Fuel, World Peace vs Record inflation, Energy dependence and War. Trump just has to ask 'Is your life better under Biden?' - and all but the most die-hard of Democrat will likely say 'No, not really'.



Maybe, maybe not.

The issue I think is that those who voted for Trump in 2020 will still vote for him in 2024. Trump is not exactly a swing-voter candidate. Will the people who voted for Biden in 2020 vote for Biden in 2024?

If not Biden, then who? There's no one in the Democrat that has the fortitude to go against the Woke activist base, Tulsi tried, then she realised the Dems were cancer and left (heh). So you either have the likes of Biden, Pelosi et al. Old and borderline senile who just go along with the activists because it's easier - or you have someone younger who is a die-hard zealot.

Well one things for sure. With the media saying Russia is on its knees, no weapons no money and with an allegedly cancer ridden Dementia patient dictator busy with a war there’s no way “Russian intervetence” will be a credible story again.
The only sure thing is that whoever is in charge will be another puppet.

[neels]

And then Biden proved just how great a president Trump was. I can remember it - low inflation, world peace, cheap petrol.

I could do with some of that again...
Couldn't we all.

Then again on those metrics, you would have to say over the same period NZ had a great labour government and a great prime minister, or that Cambodia had a great leader from 1976-1979.

Of course you could consider what came after their time in office as a measure of their performance, as that's when the changes and policies actually have an effect, much like the early covid money scramble taking a couple of years to translate into increased inflation.

Otherwise it's effectively like judging how well someone maintains a motorcycle by how it was when they bought it, not how it was when they sold it.....

[TheDemonLord]

Couldn't we all.

Then again on those metrics, you would have to say over the same period NZ had a great labour government and a great prime minister, or that Cambodia had a great leader from 1976-1979.

Up until around oh 2019 when she showed her true colours...

But yes, in the period 2017-2019 the Economy was good and life was good.


Of course you could consider what came after their time in office as a measure of their performance, as that's when the changes and policies actually have an effect, much like the early covid money scramble taking a couple of years to translate into increased inflation.

So the Key National government was amazing right up until Jacinda screwed it all up?

Not sure I can agree with the first part, but whatever, I'll take it ;)


Otherwise it's effectively like judging how well someone maintains a motorcycle by how it was when they bought it, not how it was when they sold it.....

I dunno - see, if someone says that changing oil is systematic oppression against metal shavings and that they are going to stop changing the oil, then the engine blows up - I think we've got enough info to judge them before the sale....

[TheDemonLord]

Last time you rolled this argument out, I said nothing has changed since the mid terms gop disaster. Now things have changed. The stolen election lie is now unraveling with fox settling on the first day and there is still the smartmatic one to come. The fake electors in Georgia are now turning on each other - uh ohhh, and gop are still going against the grain implementing draconian abortion laws and that is just to name a few. None of this will sway swing voters back to trump.

The Defamation case though isn't the gotcha you think it is, Georgia - we'll see.

The abortion thing is interesting though - again, for clarity, I'm fundamentally pro-choice - this isn't my fight - In deep red states where there is strong opposition to Abortion (which, I'll remind you is predominantly from Mothers - not the Eeeeevil Patriarchy), these laws are popular.

And that is at the core of States rights - each state gets to do what is popular with it's residents and the Federal government doesn't intervene.

The biggest risk for the Dems is if the current NYC case falls flat on it's face (which I suspect it will, barring an activist jury) - then Trump gets to play the political persecution card - and that will both galvanize his own voterbase but also appeal to the Swing voter who hates political persecution more than Trump.


The first time you posted in the original trump thread I knew a day of reckoning will come for you. You are absolutely going to get fucked by trump. Lucky for you he only has a 3 inch mushroom shaped knob, the pain for you will be inflicted by a death of a thousand small thrusts followed by a big climax at the end ;)

I mean, that's some wonderful imagery, did you type your original post into pornhub instead of KB and watched the result?

Jokes aside though - the reckoning as you call it, would have been if Biden had been competent and been all the things that his supporters believed he would be. The fact he's been utterly disastrous (despite all the Media running interference for him and other organizations) proves that Trump wasn't nearly as bad as his detractors made him out to be.

Trump 2024.

[neels]

But yes, in the period 2017-2019 the Economy was good and life was good.
For most countries in the world, regardless of their leadership


So the Key National government was amazing right up until Jacinda screwed it all up?
Other than the ballooning national debt, they managed their way through a low inflation recession recovery quite well

The local covid response of throwing money around undoubtedly contributed to inflation, but it's also impossible for an economy the size of NZ's to resist external inflationary pressure such as increases in shipping costs by an order of magnitude, or rising fuel prices further exacerbated by the Ukraine invasion.

There are multinational companies with higher turnover than NZ's GDP, who can have a greater impact on our rate of inflation than any government policy.

I dunno - see, if someone says that changing oil is systematic oppression against metal shavings and that they are going to stop changing the oil, then the engine blows up - I think we've got enough info to judge them before the sale....Unless they do a John Key and make it someone else's problem before it blows up, then watch it all unfold from a safe distance

[TheDemonLord]

For most countries in the world, regardless of their leadership

One might say that a significant part of that was a good US economy and relative world peace...

Wonder who could have been responsible for that ;)


Other than the ballooning national debt, they managed their way through a low inflation recession recovery quite well

So, in other threads I have regularly pulled out my 'Fuck National' Flag - however, this is one area where I give them a pass. My memory is long enough to remember the $10 Billion surplus of the Clarke government that was all smoke and mirrors - I also remember the chronic under-investment in national infrastructure under the Clarke Government which the Key Government started.


The local covid response of throwing money around undoubtedly contributed to inflation, but it's also impossible for an economy the size of NZ's to resist external inflationary pressure such as increases in shipping costs by an order of magnitude, or rising fuel prices further exacerbated by the Ukraine invasion.

Sure, NZ's economy is small fry - and if Labour did something completely different, I might (who am I trying to kid here, I'd still be asking for them to be burnt at the stake) sing a little bit of a different tune. But the didn't so I don't.

And I feel this comes back to the above - National did pour a lot of money into the Economy, but investing in Infrastructure which provided benefits to the economy so we didn't feel any inflationary pressure. I can think of multiple projects that National started and have had a definitive improvement to NZ - the Waikato expressway for example.


There are multinational companies with higher turnover than NZ's GDP, who can have a greater impact on our rate of inflation than any government policy.
Unless they do a John Key and make it someone else's problem before it blows up, then watch it all unfold from a safe distance

There's an element of truth to that - however, almost all of it could be offset by Government intervention (Import/Export duties, Monetary policy etc. etc.). What people seem to forget with Key is that when he left, the Government was in tatters. It was only due to the Winston the Betrayer that Labour got in.

[neels]

One might say that a significant part of that was a good US economy and relative world peace...

Wonder who could have been responsible for that ;)

Barack Obama? He created the economy that Trump inherited out of the aftermath of the GFC



There's an element of truth to that - however, almost all of it could be offset by Government intervention (Import/Export duties, Monetary policy etc. etc.).

I thought you were against government intervention, and all for self determination?


What people seem to forget with Key is that when he left, the Government was in tatters. It was only due to the Winston the Betrayer that Labour got in.

Not forgotten at all and not really betrayal, Winston was (is?) in the centre and sided wherever his bread got buttered, National pissed him off by not fronting what they promised so he went with Labour.

The Maori party effectively ceased to exist as punishment from their voters for going with National, United Future actually ceased to exist when Peter Dunne retired from his safe electorate seat, which only left David Seymour and therefore not enough to form a government.

[TheDemonLord]

Barack Obama? He created the economy that Trump inherited out of the aftermath of the GFC

Wrong. Trump doubled the growth of Obama. The Trump economy was on the back of de-regulation.


I thought you were against government intervention, and all for self determination?

I am, which means a Government that I would support, wouldn't have done the things that caused the need for the interventions in the first place... but seeing as they did - they have mechanisms to control it.


Not forgotten at all and not really betrayal, Winston was (is?) in the centre and sided wherever his bread got buttered, National pissed him off by not fronting what they promised so he went with Labour.

I wouldn't call Winston a centrist, NZ First is socially conservative. I still think Winston just wanted to screw National over (and sit in the co-pilot's seat) - as much as the NZ First party members assure me that it was all on the strength of what Labour were promising... But as I told them - they accepted the 30 pieces of Silver and their voters let them know.

[husaberg]

Barack Obama? He created the economy that Trump inherited out of the aftermath of the GFC



https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/98BC/production/_115200193_usgdp2-nc.png

https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/F7IGGUA5BJCPLLYMP7PDXLMYWE.jpg
https://i0.wp.com/ctmirror-images.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/National-debt-chart-pp.jpg?resize=641%2C632&ssl=1\
https://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OG-FC971_TRUMPE_4U_20201014215456.png
despite a roaring economy Trump managed to tank it epic.

[sugilite]

The Defamation case though isn't the gotcha you think it is, Georgia - we'll see.
There is no gotcha, there was no stolen election plain and simple. Even Rudi is on tape saying there is no proof. Trump set up the big lie and 70% of republican voters believed it. The fact you still support the man in my eyes makes you a traitor to both democracy and conservatism. You support a man that undermined the very underpinnings of democracy with great success. You cannot tell me that Conservatism is supporting such behavior. (though you will try - unsuccessfully)


The abortion thing is interesting though - again, for clarity, I'm fundamentally pro-choice - this isn't my fight - In deep red states where there is strong opposition to Abortion (which, I'll remind you is predominantly from Mothers - not the Eeeeevil Patriarchy), these laws are popular.
The stats say you are wrong, these laws are not popular at all. Why is meatball avoiding wanting to talk about his 6 week ban? The way Michigan voted also craps on your premise that it is popular. Even Trump of late is trying to back peddle on the abortion issue and he blames individual states strong stance on abortions for the gop midterms disaster. Clearly he recognizes the damage it is doing to the gop.



The biggest risk for the Dems is if the current NYC case falls flat on it's face (which I suspect it will, barring an activist jury) - then Trump gets to play the political persecution card - and that will both galvanize his own voterbase but also appeal to the Swing voter who hates political persecution more than Trump.
What amazes me is Cohen already got done and jailed for this exact example of fraud, Trump at that time was unindicted co conspirator number 1. No one was bleating about cohan going down for a non crime were they? So now trump is indicted, why should he suddenly be innocent? Hilarious. There is plenty of time for Georgia to catch up with him too. There is basically nothing going on to bring back the swing voters that took a punt on him from 2016 - none. Ands as an aside, in Georgia, the lawyer representing 11 of the fake electors is in big, big trouble. Pop corn is at the ready. It wont be as fun as watching the orange buffoon facing off against meatball though - that will be a humdinger.



the reckoning as you call it, would have been if Biden had been competent and been all the things that his supporters believed he would be. The fact he's been utterly disastrous (despite all the Media running interference for him and other organizations) proves that Trump wasn't nearly as bad as his detractors made him out to be.

Trump 2024.

Again, Trump tried to steal an election and seriously undermined the underpinnings of democracy - just that alone excludes him from ever again being a good candidate for the presidency.

You bang on about Biden being bad, and he is as I have said many times. Still at least he is not trying to murder democracy to stay in power. No matter the fear based marxist shtick you constantly post, Biden is still better than Trump ever was.


The dems need to put this guy in the youtube below up for the presidency asap. Your blood would run cold if he ever ran eh? Young, relatable, authentic. Imagine those values in a US president? Who am I kidding though, even the dems would never go for that.
Nope, lets stick with putting up an orange buffoon, or an equally thin skinned meatball (ever widening and pithy disney fiasco) A doddery old man not long for the nursing home supported by an incompetent invisible VP who couldn't read a room if it came with sub titles. :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYICBReugOQ

[neels]

The dems need to put this guy in the youtube below up for the presidency asap. Your blood would run cold if he ever ran eh? Young, relatable, authentic. Imagine those values in a US president? Who am I kidding though, even the dems would never go for that.
Nope, lets stick with putting up an orange buffoon, or an equally thin skinned meatball (ever widening and pithy disney fiasco) A doddery old man not long for the nursing home supported by an incompetent invisible VP who couldn't read a room if it came with sub titles. :rolleyes:
It will be interesting to see who the dems put up, as that may be the determining factor. With the mechanics of the US electoral system being what they are, it's only a small minority of voters who determine the outcome anyway, so it really comes down to who can appeal to them the best.

Talking to people in the US before the 2016 election it was clear that there were a significant number of democrats who disliked Hillary so much they would be voting for Trump, just to make sure she wasn't elected, turns out that was enough to tip the balance.

If only both sides would make it interesting with the extremes, and put up AOC against MTG.

[TheDemonLord]

despite a roaring economy Trump managed to tank it epic.

Can't help but notice Trump had consistent lines above the line until something happened in 2020.

Remembering as well that it's % change compared to the last quarter. So having consistent positive growth without any flatlines (like Obama) shows that the Economy was doing great under Trump.

[TheDemonLord]

There is no gotcha, there was no stolen election plain and simple. Even Rudi is on tape saying there is no proof. Trump set up the big lie and 70% of republican voters believed it. The fact you still support the man in my eyes makes you a traitor to both democracy and conservatism. You support a man that undermined the very underpinnings of democracy with great success. You cannot tell me that Conservatism is supporting such behavior. (though you will try - unsuccessfully)

We've done this dance before - Let's cut to the chase - do I have the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (that is the level of proof demanded by a court) then I don't.

But you also want me to believe that Biden got a greater share of the African American vote than the first African American president (as just one example)? That doesn't pass the sniff test.

Like it or not, the 2020 election was unprecedented in terms of voting in the US. States that previously had minimal mail-in voting had sudden widespread mail-in voting. And it's not like Mail-in Voting doesn't have a distinguished history in the US - I remember the GW Bush election controversy. Then you've got the JFK controversy, The 1877 compromise for Rutherford B. Hayes etc.

Point is - it's not the unprecedented situation you claim it is. As for Traitor to democracy, simple - I would have insisted on in-person voting. For both the practical reasons, but also the philosophical reasons: If you aren't willing to die for your right to vote, maybe you shouldn't be voting.


The stats say you are wrong, these laws are not popular at all. Why is meatball avoiding wanting to talk about his 6 week ban? The way Michigan voted also craps on your premise that it is popular. Even Trump of late is trying to back peddle on the abortion issue and he blames individual states strong stance on abortions for the gop midterms disaster. Clearly he recognizes the damage it is doing to the gop.

Michigan is purple/swing state... So not really applicable. Hence why I said 'Deep red states'


What amazes me is Cohen already got done and jailed for this exact example of fraud, Trump at that time was unindicted co conspirator number 1. No one was bleating about cohan going down for a non crime were they? So now trump is indicted, why should he suddenly be innocent? Hilarious. There is plenty of time for Georgia to catch up with him too. There is basically nothing going on to bring back the swing voters that took a punt on him from 2016 - none. Ands as an aside, in Georgia, the lawyer representing 11 of the fake electors is in big, big trouble. Pop corn is at the ready. It wont be as fun as watching the orange buffoon facing off against meatball though - that will be a humdinger.

The way you describe it, sounds like someone desperately searching for multiple years for a way to make a charge stick. If the Dems get a conviction (and I say Dems because this is a clear Political prosecution) - the best they can hope for is to stop Trump from running. If they loose, Trump gets to say 'See, I told you they were out to get me' and 'if they can do this to the President of the USA and a Billionaire, what do you think they will do for you?'


Again, Trump tried to steal an election and seriously undermined the underpinnings of democracy - just that alone excludes him from ever again being a good candidate for the presidency.

Yeah - that would be the same Election that various groups 'Fortified' right? The same one where the FBI asked all the Tech companies to censure stories that made Biden look bad, right? The same one where we have proof of that Social Media had shadow bans, curiously affecting only Republicans, right? The same one where there had been a 4 year long disinformation campaign on behalf of the Democrats the 'Muh Russia Hoax' to discredit a lawfully elected President, right? The same one that had multiple Democrat encourage riots over a period of months causing billions in damage, to make the current President look bad, right?

At best (and this is me being as charitable as I possibly can) - you could say that the Pot is calling the Kettle Black - that both are as bad as each other. Obviously I think one is more guilty than the other - which is you got a newtonian 'Equal and opposite reaction'


You bang on about Biden being bad, and he is as I have said many times. Still at least he is not trying to murder democracy to stay in power. No matter the fear based marxist shtick you constantly post, Biden is still better than Trump ever was.

No, he's just murdering the country and taking the rest of the world down with, you know - the thing *sniff*

That and everything else above.


The dems need to put this guy in the youtube below up for the presidency asap. Your blood would run cold if he ever ran eh? Young, relatable, authentic. Imagine those values in a US president? Who am I kidding though, even the dems would never go for that.
Nope, lets stick with putting up an orange buffoon, or an equally thin skinned meatball (ever widening and pithy disney fiasco) A doddery old man not long for the nursing home supported by an incompetent invisible VP who couldn't read a room if it came with sub titles. :rolleyes:

He certainly speaks well, I'll give him that. However, looking at his Policy positions he is trapped in the framework of the Radical Left - From his website:

Poverty = Increase Minimum Wage.
Gun Control = I'm a soldier, so I know Guns are bad
BLM = I marched with BLM, I'm not a racist
LGBTQIA+123ABCXYZ = I'm captured by the Woke left
Climate Change = Box Check, Box Check, Box Check.

Shame really, because a Centrist Democrat who is well spoken could be great. Shame they just keep going to the Republicans...

Also - If Kamala was your VP - would you want her speaking in Public?

[TheDemonLord]

If only both sides would make it interesting with the extremes, and put up AOC against MTG.

Mud Wrestling, Pillow Fight or Handbags at 50 paces?

[sugilite]

We've done this dance before - Let's cut to the chase - do I have the evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (that is the level of proof demanded by a court) then I don't.
Neither does Trump or anyone else, yet trump pushes a lie that convinces 70% of gop voters to doubt the underpinnings of democracy - and from what I can tell, you are all good with that.


But you also want me to believe that Biden got a greater share of the African American vote than the first African American president (as just one example)? That doesn't pass the sniff test.
Because your constantly sniffing trumps butt and not giving the situation balanced thought. Despite everything you say, Trump is a racist. Blacks see that. Imagine being black and watching trump using language claiming ownership of "his black American".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOYMFkFgPzk

It is human nature to take action against something or someone you dislike. If course they came out to vote in force. Hatred is a powerful motivator, way more so than kumbaya sentiments.



Like it or not, the 2020 election was unprecedented in terms of voting in the US. States that previously had minimal mail-in voting had sudden widespread mail-in voting. And it's not like Mail-in Voting doesn't have a distinguished history in the US - I remember the GW Bush election controversy. Then you've got the JFK controversy, The 1877 compromise for Rutherford B. Hayes etc.
And yet by analyzing everything down to the smallest degree, the extensive Arizona analysis done by the maga leaning mob came up with more votes for Biden. How inconvenient for your premise.


Point is - it's not the unprecedented situation you claim it is. As for Traitor to democracy, simple - I would have insisted on in-person voting. For both the practical reasons, but also the philosophical reasons: If you aren't willing to die for your right to vote, maybe you shouldn't be voting.
You call that a point? I call it a farce. Mail in voting has PROVEN to be reliable and effective almost entirely free of fraud, time and time again. Your premise of "If you aren't willing to die for your right to vote, maybe you shouldn't be voting." is absurd. But you do you.




Michigan is purple/swing state... So not really applicable. Hence why I said 'Deep red states'
Oh, you mean a section of voters that is not the majority? Again, your premise so obviously flawed, The majority does NOT agree with the gop position on abortion - just as I stated.





The way you describe it, sounds like someone desperately searching for multiple years for a way to make a charge stick. If the Dems get a conviction (and I say Dems because this is a clear Political prosecution) - the best they can hope for is to stop Trump from running. If they loose, Trump gets to say 'See, I told you they were out to get me' and 'if they can do this to the President of the USA and a Billionaire, what do you think they will do for you?'
You do not address in anyway the way I described it. FACT: Cohen got done for it and the gop said nothing. It is exact same example of said crime. Your premise is so floored you could not even take my words head on. I grant you, in terms of the crimes trump has committed, this one is small. However, the dems have been very smart about it as they literally need Trump to run to win, and look how their plan has panned out, it has completely taken the wind out of meatballs campaign, he is literally dead in the water at this point. After watching meatball in action, he was never ready to take on Trump anyways. The dems are keeping the really big stuff until later, again, smart. Trump is the author of his own demise, as he has been ever since he won in 2016.



Yeah - that would be the same Election that various groups 'Fortified' right? The same one where the FBI asked all the Tech companies to censure stories that made Biden look bad, right? The same one where we have proof of that Social Media had shadow bans, curiously affecting only Republicans, right? The same one where there had been a 4 year long disinformation campaign on behalf of the Democrats the 'Muh Russia Hoax' to discredit a lawfully elected President, right? The same one that had multiple Democrat encourage riots over a period of months causing billions in damage, to make the current President look bad, right?
Russian interference was proven, no matter how many times you say otherwise, likely not to the extent the dems made out sure - but I believed Mueller 100% - I know an honest man when I see one - even a republican. The only story the FBI was proven to have interfered with, was the hunter biden one and only for 24 hours. Another TDL nothingburger - no wonder you are losing weight ;)
But at the end of the day, that one was proven in the hearings run by Gym Jordan as being yet another right wing cry-fest. Look at what the RWNJ were posting at the time, no wonder some of them were shadow banned. The riots in my opinion worked against the dems and made republicans fake law and order messaging (like they give a shit) very attractive to voters. Again, simple human nature there - if you care to even give it a modicum of thought. All that pales when compared to 70% of gop voters losing confidence over the electoral process due to mind numbingly repeated lies by trump and cronies again, and again, and again ad infinitum.



No, he's just murdering the country and taking the rest of the world down with, you know - the thing *sniff*
Leave the breathless lies and hype to trump eh, you are better than that. Biden is not responsible for the Worlds woes, neither are the dems, or even magas. You constantly reach for absolutes time and time again - ESPECIALLY when it comes to Marxism, see a few traits and every leftie wants to suck stalins dick. :rolleyes:



He certainly speaks well, I'll give him that. However, looking at his Policy positions he is trapped in the framework of the Radical Left - From his website:
Yes, lets address those shall we.


Poverty = Increase Minimum Wage. Why not, it is fucking disgusting what employers get away with over there.


Gun Control = I'm a soldier, so I know Guns are bad Duhhhh, because the wrong people with guns is bad. Just in the last few days, people getting shot/and killed for going up the wrong driveway, going to get a errant basketball, starting to mistakenly getting into the wrong car. Then add countless school massacres you promote as being worth the price of a fucked up second amendment. How you would change your tune if it were your children getting shot in the head. I read your hunting report, and liked 95% of it. I noted your sentiments along the lines of how you imagined the nice feelings of an armed society all getting along. In the group of response able peers you were with yes, I get that. But not everyone is like that, and large numbers of people should not have access to guns, because if they do, you get the lunacy that is growing ever larger in the USA.


BLM = I marched with BLM, I'm not a racist It is a fucking travesty that the one movement that should of bought a collective voice to the VERY real and legitimate current and historic grievances was a trogin horse run by greedy fucks. But people like you use that travesty to push your barrow of thinly disguised status quo-isym when it comes to continued repression of black people. You gloatingly expound how they have the same equal rights as other races, without taking a single step in their shoes. I've seen it first hand, the society they are born into. It took zero imagination for me to see how hard it would be for them to break out of the mind sets so carefully crafted for them to live in. Sure the scales will tip the other way of unrealistic expectations of reparations and so on, but they could at least hope the scales swing back to the middle and people can start to forgive, and learn that maybe, just maybe attitudes born of 100 of years of repression may need to be addressed. CRT is part of that. You yourself could use a dose of CRT, every point in regards to racism in the States I have ever made, including my personal experience from my time there, you have denounced and swatted down with nary a poofteenth of thought or empathy placed upon it. Frankly, I see no daylight between your writings and white supremacist rhetoric - none.


LGBTQIA+123ABCXYZ = I'm captured by the Woke left Sure, some aspects of trans and so on is extreme, and I'm against the dems for things lioke letting them compete in sports against genders they are not born into. However, the so called conservative media and pollies running a relentless campaign against them is fucking disgusting. Last week on one day, fox was runnig 25% of their content attacking trans. Fuck that shit. Some aspects of woke are actually good, highlighting things that need to be addressed. I get it has gone to far, but neverending attacks from the right leave no pathway to balance. What a shame RWNJ's have completely hijacked it, now nothing that actually needs attention and social adjustment stands a chance. As mentioned, the left are equally guilty for being extreme at the opposite end of the scale - and in the meantime many communities of persecuted people are continuing to be fucked over. I genuinely fear for my trans child safety the way things are going.


Climate Change = Box Check, Box Check, Box Check. Climate change, it is here, be it man made or otherwise. It will kill millions, no doubt. I do note how you like to spout science when it suits you and pooh pooh it when it does not. No matter the origins, man-made or a natural process, humanity needs to get it's shit together and work towards solutions. And yet even a calm, balanced politician is treated as some sort of marxist activist by the likes of people with your mindset for being concerned about a very large and real issue. I certainly would take notice of a calm and measured approach, rather than by someone so afraid of marxisym they martyr themselves over a couple of wannabe marxists in a large companies marketing division - all the while smugly pronouncing their brand of cancel culture to be far superior to others. You wanna talk about sniff tests? POOOOOOOH :puke:


Shame really, because a Centrist Democrat who is well spoken could be great. Shame they just keep going to the Republicans...
I'm with that well spoken dem, it is very suspicious how some of these these dems are suddenly having personality transplants. I bet their pockets are getting heavier at the same time, or their shoulders being weighed down by blackmail. My speculative opinion only. As mentioned by yourself recently, leopards don't change their spots.


Having said all the above, I'm equally sure that somewhere in the gop ranks, there is an equally balanced and well spoken republican, and I would be equally pleased to see them put into power.

[TheDemonLord]

Neither does Trump or anyone else, yet trump pushes a lie that convinces 70% of gop voters to doubt the underpinnings of democracy - and from what I can tell, you are all good with that.

Because your constantly sniffing trumps butt and not giving the situation balanced thought. Despite everything you say, Trump is a racist. Blacks see that. Imagine being black and watching trump using language claiming ownership of "his black American".

It is human nature to take action against something or someone you dislike. If course they came out to vote in force. Hatred is a powerful motivator, way more so than kumbaya sentiments.

And yet by analyzing everything down to the smallest degree, the extensive Arizona analysis done by the maga leaning mob came up with more votes for Biden. How inconvenient for your premise.

You call that a point? I call it a farce. Mail in voting has PROVEN to be reliable and effective almost entirely free of fraud, time and time again. Your premise of "If you aren't willing to die for your right to vote, maybe you shouldn't be voting." is absurd. But you do you.

Okay then - I've mentioned this in other threads and so I'll mention it again here - when it comes to Trump, you are very much on the 'There's no smoke without fire' train, you believe he's a criminal (or at least has committed criminal acts) and despite there being no successful prosecution, you still believe that.

Fine, you do you.

Yet, when I hold a position that is equally unproven, somehow I'm ridiculous?

When I looked at some of the voting patterns in the US, going back ~150 years, there are a number of things 'odd' about the 2020 election. Odd doesn't 'prove' fraud, but that is the Smoke that 70% think means there is fire.

The only thing I have got to take issue with is Mail-in Voting is not proven to be reliable. After the 2000 election Florida and Ohio (IIRC) both implemented a raft of legislation to tighten up some of the issues with Mail-in Voting and since those changes, in those states it is reliable.

Other states that did not have a history of large scale mail-in voting did not have those methods applied to their mail-in voting process. Does this prove fraud? No. But again, it's suspicious.


Oh, you mean a section of voters that is not the majority? Again, your premise so obviously flawed, The majority does NOT agree with the gop position on abortion - just as I stated.

Which Majority? There's an image that I'm 99% sure you've seen that shows the number of red counties vs number of blue counties in the US - and almost the entirety of the US, by area, is deeply conservative.

It's only the extremely densely populated cities that give the Democrats any victories. Granted, that numerically, they tend to outweigh the Republicans in terms of numbers - but I'm not sure you can so easily say it's flawed. If you had a cult compound in a small NZ town with more people in the compound than the surrounding town - would it be a fair assessment to say that the town was a religious cult? In one sense of Stats, absolutely, in another sense, absolutely not.


You do not address in anyway the way I described it. FACT: Cohen got done for it and the gop said nothing. It is exact same example of said crime. Your premise is so floored you could not even take my words head on. I grant you, in terms of the crimes trump has committed, this one is small. However, the dems have been very smart about it as they literally need Trump to run to win, and look how their plan has panned out, it has completely taken the wind out of meatballs campaign, he is literally dead in the water at this point. After watching meatball in action, he was never ready to take on Trump anyways. The dems are keeping the really big stuff until later, again, smart. Trump is the author of his own demise, as he has been ever since he won in 2016.

'The Dems have been very smart' - so it's naked Politicing then and nothing to do with Justice, thanks for the confirmation ;)


Russian interference was proven, no matter how many times you say otherwise, likely not to the extent the dems made out sure - but I believed Mueller 100% - I know an honest man when I see one - even a republican. The only story the FBI was proven to have interfered with, was the hunter biden one and only for 24 hours. Another TDL nothingburger - no wonder you are losing weight ;)
But at the end of the day, that one was proven in the hearings run by Gym Jordan as being yet another right wing cry-fest. Look at what the RWNJ were posting at the time, no wonder some of them were shadow banned. The riots in my opinion worked against the dems and made republicans fake law and order messaging (like they give a shit) very attractive to voters. Again, simple human nature there - if you care to even give it a modicum of thought. All that pales when compared to 70% of gop voters losing confidence over the electoral process due to mind numbingly repeated lies by trump and cronies again, and again, and again ad infinitum.

It was proven to be a figment of the Dem's imagination. Nothing more, nothing less. At best, I'd say Mueller was an honest man who was himself deceived.

24 hours? The Twitter ban ran for weeks alone - and it wasn't just Twitter, it was FB, YT etc.

And again - it doesn't change the fact that there was Cabal-like behavior, where they admitted to 'Fortifying' the election. We have the source code that the level playing field was absolutely tipped in one direction, only in the favor of the Democrats. If you think that this makes it a fair and free election, then I'd like you to take every bit of rhetorhic you hurled at me over 'destroying Democracy' and read it aloud for yourself.

Now, sure if you want to say 'look at what the RWNJs were posting' sure, then I get to say 'Look at what the Gender Activists were posting' - they weren't banned... Until Elon came along.



Leave the breathless lies and hype to trump eh, you are better than that. Biden is not responsible for the Worlds woes, neither are the dems, or even magas. You constantly reach for absolutes time and time again - ESPECIALLY when it comes to Marxism, see a few traits and every leftie wants to suck stalins dick. :rolleyes:

Well, did those woes happen under Trump? No?
Did they happen under Biden? Yes?

That's about as far as I care at this point. To answer the challenge directly: I do believe that Biden's Energy, Fiscal, Mandate and Foreign Policy have all been significant causal factors in the currents issues we face.

There are obviously home-grown issues as well, but seeing as Jacinda sung from the same song sheet, I'm not inclined to draw a distinction.

As for Marxism - The problem is - you've read the work and you know I'm right on this - the ideologies that are currently in vogue amongst the Left all trace their roots back to the Frankfurt School, Gramscii and Marx.

I'll grant you that some of the people parroting these ideas probably don't know the source of the ideas or what the intended goal of them is - but that is not my concern. They are functionally no different than someone who does know the source and does have that as the intended goal - and so by that metric I damn both of them with the same critique.


Yes, lets address those shall we.

Why not, it is fucking disgusting what employers get away with over there.

Cause it doesn't work.

I'm being serious here. There is no evidence economically that increasing the Mininmum Wage helps poverty in the Long run. Now, I'll grant you that for a few short months, it will 'seem' to help - but Poverty is not a short-term problem for those who are most affective, so why would a short term 'fix' make any difference?

I'll give you one example here - do you know what the single biggest predictor is for long term success is? It's a two-parent (Mother and Father) household. I looked in his Poverty plan - I didn't see anything in there to address the rate of Divorce or the rate of single motherhood.

All I see is the same number of failed ideas that are based on the same flawed economic theories that underpin modern Leftism.

That in-of-itself wouldn't be that bad if those policy ideas were benign, but I put it to you that many of them over time compound the problem and make it worse. I often get accused of callousness - but what is more callous? Saying no in the short-term, so that the long-term prospects are better or saying yes in the short-term and damning the person in the long run.


Duhhhh, because the wrong people with guns is bad. Just in the last few days, people getting shot/and killed for going up the wrong driveway, going to get a errant basketball, starting to mistakenly getting into the wrong car. Then add countless school massacres you promote as being worth the price of a fucked up second amendment. How you would change your tune if it were your children getting shot in the head. I read your hunting report, and liked 95% of it. I noted your sentiments along the lines of how you imagined the nice feelings of an armed society all getting along. In the group of response able peers you were with yes, I get that. But not everyone is like that, and large numbers of people should not have access to guns, because if they do, you get the lunacy that is growing ever larger in the USA.

Okay then - tell you what, let's put aside the second amendment for a moment - I'm going to cherry pick two things here:

"The wrong people with guns is bad" and "In the group of response able peers you were with yes, I get that."

Simple question: How do you make sure only the reasonable people and not the wrong people have them?


It is a fucking travesty that the one movement that should of bought a collective voice to the VERY real and legitimate current and historic grievances was a trogin horse run by greedy fucks.

Greedy, Marxist fucks. And it wasn't a Travesty, it was an inevitability.


But people like you use that travesty to push your barrow of thinly disguised status quo-isym when it comes to continued repression of black people. You gloatingly expound how they have the same equal rights as other races, without taking a single step in their shoes. I've seen it first hand, the society they are born into. It took zero imagination for me to see how hard it would be for them to break out of the mind sets so carefully crafted for them to live in.

What Quo-isym do I support?

I'll tell you: Meritocracy. Race need not apply.

The problem for you is that if America is as bad as you say it is - why are Asians, Indians and first generation Immigrants crushing the White Population? Why are the systemic barriers that supposedly uphold 'whiteness' not hold back those groups? That's when they (The marxists) come up with terms like 'White adjacent' and other such nonsense.

There is a painful truth here - that if you tell a group that they are systematically oppressed and that no matter how hard they try, they'll never succeed - guess what? They'll believe it. That belief will then colour (pun intended) every interaction of theirs. Just like you accused me of seeing Marxism everywhere (although in my case, I have the academic citations to back it up) they will see Racism everywhere and then will act in accordance to that belief.

This is not anything new either - Sun Tzu even said it:

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.”

If you want to improve Race relations, first and foremost - you have to stop with the victim narrative even if there is some historic truth in that matter - because someone who believes they can succeed will find a way to.

There's other things as well - like the massive rate of Fatherlessness in the Black Community, Gangs and crime - but without that belief - you could fix everything else and still be screwed.


Sure the scales will tip the other way of unrealistic expectations of reparations and so on, but they could at least hope the scales swing back to the middle and people can start to forgive, and learn that maybe, just maybe attitudes born of 100 of years of repression may need to be addressed. CRT is part of that. You yourself could use a dose of CRT, every point in regards to racism in the States I have ever made, including my personal experience from my time there, you have denounced and swatted down with nary a poofteenth of thought or empathy placed upon it. Frankly, I see no daylight between your writings and white supremacist rhetoric - none.

Tip the scales the other way? In regards to Racial Justice? How has that worked out in the past? In a pile of bloody corpses as far as the eye can see. CRT has but one goal in mind, it's not Racial Justice - just like BLM was a Trojan horse for Greedy Fucks (your words, mind) CRT is a trojan horse for a revolution - you've even read the citations, yet still don't believe it.

I don't doubt your personal experience in terms of what you saw - I'm saying that the charge of 'Racism' required an interrogation of both the act and the mindset of the person doing it - to use the legal term: Mens rea - the guilty mind.

I heard an interaction recently between 2 people "Are you Indian?", "No, I'm not", "But your skin is Indian", "I'm not from india", "Where did you come from?", "I'm from New Zealand"

Sounds Racist as fuck, right? Now, let's re-read that with some Context. That was from a child, talking to a Nurse in hospital who had been learning about India in School. There was not a drop of racism, only curiosity and a child's clumsiness of speech.

Of course, not everyone is a Child - the point being that if you are inferring mindset purely on action - I'm going to call you up on it.

That and the 'research' on implicit bias is completely bunk, to the point that the Authors of the research asked that it stopped be used in the manner that it was.

If you see no light between what I write and a White Supremecist - that's your call, I doubt you truly mean that, because I doubt you'd broke any words with a white supremecist - however, depending on how bored I get today, I may decide to test this theory - I'm sure I could cut out a few snippets of CRT texts and replace the word White with Black and see if you can tell the difference ;)




Sure, some aspects of trans and so on is extreme, and I'm against the dems for things lioke letting them compete in sports against genders they are not born into.

So, you're Transphobic then....



However, the so called conservative media and pollies running a relentless campaign against them is fucking disgusting. Last week on one day, fox was runnig 25% of their content attacking trans. Fuck that shit.

Do you think maybe there's some connection here - like the Dems not backing off and saying 'You know what? This is too far.'? Like maybe if they stopping pushing it, then the conservative media would find something else to be annoyed about?


Some aspects of woke are actually good, highlighting things that need to be addressed.

As a general rule, I disagree - I'm trying to think of an issue that wokeness has highlighted that needed to be addressed and requires Wokeness to be addressed. Can't think of one. Closest would be MeToo - but even that went too far.


I get it has gone to far, but neverending attacks from the right leave no pathway to balance. What a shame RWNJ's have completely hijacked it, now nothing that actually needs attention and social adjustment stands a chance. As mentioned, the left are equally guilty for being extreme at the opposite end of the scale - and in the meantime many communities of persecuted people are continuing to be fucked over. I genuinely fear for my trans child safety the way things are going.

If it has gone to far, why do you criticize me and the right for pushing back? That's the only way to get back to Balance. Problem is, you know, as well as I do - that the moment you push back, you are in the same camp as me and you know you'll cop the same flak that I do, despite not agreeing with me on many subjects.

Tell you what though - how about this - if I could, I'd take us back to the mid-2000s consensus on many issues, Trans included - they exist, we'll leave them alone to do their thing.

Deal?



Climate change, it is here, be it man made or otherwise. It will kill millions, no doubt. I do note how you like to spout science when it suits you and pooh pooh it when it does not. No matter the origins, man-made or a natural process, humanity needs to get it's shit together and work towards solutions. And yet even a calm, balanced politician is treated as some sort of marxist activist by the likes of people with your mindset for being concerned about a very large and real issue. I certainly would take notice of a calm and measured approach, rather than by someone so afraid of marxisym they martyr themselves over a couple of wannabe lefties in a large companies marketing division - all the while smugly pronouncing their brand of cancel culture to be far superior to others. You wanna talk about sniff tests? POOOOOOOH :puke:

'Or otherwise' And that my Dear Sugi is part of the problem.

The conversation I see on Climate Change from the Left (which is why they get the label of Marxism) goes something like this:

"Capitalism is evil, it's ruining the environment, therefore we need to get rid of it and the only way to do that is to give all the power and money to the Government"

Normally with the first part conveniently omitted.

Now, if it's 'Or Otherwise' - then that is a very different set of problems to solve than if it's man-made. I've mentioned elsewhere I have an old book from the 90s about Energy and it's a lovely book and in it, it makes all sorts of energy predictions - none of them have come true. And these predictions are very milk-toast, not like the doomerism of the Climate mob today. I can go back 70 odd years to the 1950s and give you a laundry list of failed climate scares.

So when the Government says 'You need to change your entire lifestyle because Climate (oh and BTW we'll need to take some of your rights, money and freedom too)' - yeah, to say I'm skeptical would be a massive understatement. To say that I'm outright hostile when I see the same philosophers cited in the theory that drives it is probably more accurate.

Here is the thing though - I'm not opposed to 'Green' Technologies - My thoughts, to put them as succinctly as I can "When they are good enough, they will be able to compete on their own merits, without Government fiat".

That and there's a bit of 'You say I need to drive less, to save the planet, but you need to fly your private jet'. I see the claims as nothing more than 'Do as we say, not as I do'


I'm with that well spoken dem, it is very suspicious how some of these these dems are suddenly having personality transplants. I bet their pockets are getting heavier at the same time, or their shoulders being weighed down by blackmail. My speculative opinion only. As mentioned by yourself recently, leopards don't change their spots.

The Dems are in a tough spot - Wokeness isn't popular, but it is what drives the Activist base. You could take one look at UK Politics to see this - you have Labour being wildly unelectable under Jeremy Corbyn and then Sir Keir Stamer trying to convince the party that it's not the party of Corbyn, Stamer doesn't have the minerals to do what Blair did in the 90s and oust all the Communists (although ironically, Blair turned out to be awful, but for different reasons). Then you've got the Tories who keep forgetting that they aren't meant to be Labour.

What the Left wing needs - and perhaps even more for the Right wing, is a new Left wing ideology that doesn't have it's roots in Marxism. Think like the 1980s left wing politics - that was heavily libertarian and (due to the Cold War) was still wary of Marxist ideas.

A new form of Left Wing Politics would naturally curb the excesses of the Right (as above - they Right keep pushing because the Left keep pushing - and IMO the Left drew first blood(


Having said all the above, I'm equally sure that somewhere in the gop ranks, there is an equally balanced and well spoken republican, and I would be equally pleased to see them put into power.

Ron ;)

[R650R]

Okay then - I've mentioned this in other threads and so I'll mention it again here - when it comes to Trump, you are very much on the 'There's no smoke without fire' train, you believe he's a criminal (or at least has committed criminal acts) and despite there being no successful prosecution, you still believe that.

Fine, you do you.

Yet, when I hold a position that is equally unproven, somehow I'm ridiculous?

When I looked at some of the voting patterns in the US, going back ~150 years, there are a number of things 'odd' about the 2020 election. Odd doesn't 'prove' fraud, but that is the Smoke that 70% think means there is fire.

The only thing I have got to take issue with is Mail-in Voting is not proven to be reliable. After the 2000 election Florida and Ohio (IIRC) both implemented a raft of legislation to tighten up some of the issues with Mail-in Voting and since those changes, in those states it is reliable.

Other states that did not have a history of large scale mail-in voting did not have those methods applied to their mail-in voting process. Does this prove fraud? No. But again, it's suspicious.



Which Majority? There's an image that I'm 99% sure you've seen that shows the number of red counties vs number of blue counties in the US - and almost the entirety of the US, by area, is deeply conservative.

It's only the extremely densely populated cities that give the Democrats any victories. Granted, that numerically, they tend to outweigh the Republicans in terms of numbers - but I'm not sure you can so easily say it's flawed. If you had a cult compound in a small NZ town with more people in the compound than the surrounding town - would it be a fair assessment to say that the town was a religious cult? In one sense of Stats, absolutely, in another sense, absolutely not.



'The Dems have been very smart' - so it's naked Politicing then and nothing to do with Justice, thanks for the confirmation ;)



It was proven to be a figment of the Dem's imagination. Nothing more, nothing less. At best, I'd say Mueller was an honest man who was himself deceived.

24 hours? The Twitter ban ran for weeks alone - and it wasn't just Twitter, it was FB, YT etc.

And again - it doesn't change the fact that there was Cabal-like behavior, where they admitted to 'Fortifying' the election. We have the source code that the level playing field was absolutely tipped in one direction, only in the favor of the Democrats. If you think that this makes it a fair and free election, then I'd like you to take every bit of rhetorhic you hurled at me over 'destroying Democracy' and read it aloud for yourself.

Now, sure if you want to say 'look at what the RWNJs were posting' sure, then I get to say 'Look at what the Gender Activists were posting' - they weren't banned... Until Elon came along.




Well, did those woes happen under Trump? No?
Did they happen under Biden? Yes?

That's about as far as I care at this point. To answer the challenge directly: I do believe that Biden's Energy, Fiscal, Mandate and Foreign Policy have all been significant causal factors in the currents issues we face.

There are obviously home-grown issues as well, but seeing as Jacinda sung from the same song sheet, I'm not inclined to draw a distinction.

As for Marxism - The problem is - you've read the work and you know I'm right on this - the ideologies that are currently in vogue amongst the Left all trace their roots back to the Frankfurt School, Gramscii and Marx.

I'll grant you that some of the people parroting these ideas probably don't know the source of the ideas or what the intended goal of them is - but that is not my concern. They are functionally no different than someone who does know the source and does have that as the intended goal - and so by that metric I damn both of them with the same critique.



Cause it doesn't work.

I'm being serious here. There is no evidence economically that increasing the Mininmum Wage helps poverty in the Long run. Now, I'll grant you that for a few short months, it will 'seem' to help - but Poverty is not a short-term problem for those who are most affective, so why would a short term 'fix' make any difference?

I'll give you one example here - do you know what the single biggest predictor is for long term success is? It's a two-parent (Mother and Father) household. I looked in his Poverty plan - I didn't see anything in there to address the rate of Divorce or the rate of single motherhood.

All I see is the same number of failed ideas that are based on the same flawed economic theories that underpin modern Leftism.

That in-of-itself wouldn't be that bad if those policy ideas were benign, but I put it to you that many of them over time compound the problem and make it worse. I often get accused of callousness - but what is more callous? Saying no in the short-term, so that the long-term prospects are better or saying yes in the short-term and damning the person in the long run.



Okay then - tell you what, let's put aside the second amendment for a moment - I'm going to cherry pick two things here:

"The wrong people with guns is bad" and "In the group of response able peers you were with yes, I get that."

Simple question: How do you make sure only the reasonable people and not the wrong people have them?



Greedy, Marxist fucks. And it wasn't a Travesty, it was an inevitability.



What Quo-isym do I support?

I'll tell you: Meritocracy. Race need not apply.

The problem for you is that if America is as bad as you say it is - why are Asians, Indians and first generation Immigrants crushing the White Population? Why are the systemic barriers that supposedly uphold 'whiteness' not hold back those groups? That's when they (The marxists) come up with terms like 'White adjacent' and other such nonsense.

There is a painful truth here - that if you tell a group that they are systematically oppressed and that no matter how hard they try, they'll never succeed - guess what? They'll believe it. That belief will then colour (pun intended) every interaction of theirs. Just like you accused me of seeing Marxism everywhere (although in my case, I have the academic citations to back it up) they will see Racism everywhere and then will act in accordance to that belief.

This is not anything new either - Sun Tzu even said it:

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.”

If you want to improve Race relations, first and foremost - you have to stop with the victim narrative even if there is some historic truth in that matter - because someone who believes they can succeed will find a way to.

There's other things as well - like the massive rate of Fatherlessness in the Black Community, Gangs and crime - but without that belief - you could fix everything else and still be screwed.



Tip the scales the other way? In regards to Racial Justice? How has that worked out in the past? In a pile of bloody corpses as far as the eye can see. CRT has but one goal in mind, it's not Racial Justice - just like BLM was a Trojan horse for Greedy Fucks (your words, mind) CRT is a trojan horse for a revolution - you've even read the citations, yet still don't believe it.

I don't doubt your personal experience in terms of what you saw - I'm saying that the charge of 'Racism' required an interrogation of both the act and the mindset of the person doing it - to use the legal term: Mens rea - the guilty mind.

I heard an interaction recently between 2 people "Are you Indian?", "No, I'm not", "But your skin is Indian", "I'm not from india", "Where did you come from?", "I'm from New Zealand"

Sounds Racist as fuck, right? Now, let's re-read that with some Context. That was from a child, talking to a Nurse in hospital who had been learning about India in School. There was not a drop of racism, only curiosity and a child's clumsiness of speech.

Of course, not everyone is a Child - the point being that if you are inferring mindset purely on action - I'm going to call you up on it.

That and the 'research' on implicit bias is completely bunk, to the point that the Authors of the research asked that it stopped be used in the manner that it was.

If you see no light between what I write and a White Supremecist - that's your call, I doubt you truly mean that, because I doubt you'd broke any words with a white supremecist - however, depending on how bored I get today, I may decide to test this theory - I'm sure I could cut out a few snippets of CRT texts and replace the word White with Black and see if you can tell the difference ;)





So, you're Transphobic then....



Do you think maybe there's some connection here - like the Dems not backing off and saying 'You know what? This is too far.'? Like maybe if they stopping pushing it, then the conservative media would find something else to be annoyed about?



As a general rule, I disagree - I'm trying to think of an issue that wokeness has highlighted that needed to be addressed and requires Wokeness to be addressed. Can't think of one. Closest would be MeToo - but even that went too far.



If it has gone to far, why do you criticize me and the right for pushing back? That's the only way to get back to Balance. Problem is, you know, as well as I do - that the moment you push back, you are in the same camp as me and you know you'll cop the same flak that I do, despite not agreeing with me on many subjects.

Tell you what though - how about this - if I could, I'd take us back to the mid-2000s consensus on many issues, Trans included - they exist, we'll leave them alone to do their thing.

Deal?




'Or otherwise' And that my Dear Sugi is part of the problem.

The conversation I see on Climate Change from the Left (which is why they get the label of Marxism) goes something like this:

"Capitalism is evil, it's ruining the environment, therefore we need to get rid of it and the only way to do that is to give all the power and money to the Government"

Normally with the first part conveniently omitted.

Now, if it's 'Or Otherwise' - then that is a very different set of problems to solve than if it's man-made. I've mentioned elsewhere I have an old book from the 90s about Energy and it's a lovely book and in it, it makes all sorts of energy predictions - none of them have come true. And these predictions are very milk-toast, not like the doomerism of the Climate mob today. I can go back 70 odd years to the 1950s and give you a laundry list of failed climate scares.

So when the Government says 'You need to change your entire lifestyle because Climate (oh and BTW we'll need to take some of your rights, money and freedom too)' - yeah, to say I'm skeptical would be a massive understatement. To say that I'm outright hostile when I see the same philosophers cited in the theory that drives it is probably more accurate.

Here is the thing though - I'm not opposed to 'Green' Technologies - My thoughts, to put them as succinctly as I can "When they are good enough, they will be able to compete on their own merits, without Government fiat".

That and there's a bit of 'You say I need to drive less, to save the planet, but you need to fly your private jet'. I see the claims as nothing more than 'Do as we say, not as I do'



The Dems are in a tough spot - Wokeness isn't popular, but it is what drives the Activist base. You could take one look at UK Politics to see this - you have Labour being wildly unelectable under Jeremy Corbyn and then Sir Keir Stamer trying to convince the party that it's not the party of Corbyn, Stamer doesn't have the minerals to do what Blair did in the 90s and oust all the Communists (although ironically, Blair turned out to be awful, but for different reasons). Then you've got the Tories who keep forgetting that they aren't meant to be Labour.

What the Left wing needs - and perhaps even more for the Right wing, is a new Left wing ideology that doesn't have it's roots in Marxism. Think like the 1980s left wing politics - that was heavily libertarian and (due to the Cold War) was still wary of Marxist ideas.

A new form of Left Wing Politics would naturally curb the excesses of the Right (as above - they Right keep pushing because the Left keep pushing - and IMO the Left drew first blood(



Ron ;)

Must spread rep etc....

[sugilite]

He slipped so many mickeys in there Disney lawyers will come a knocking. Rushed with cliche easily disproven premises as per usual. Dont feel bad mate, only the mildly astute picks up on them ;)
I will deal with tdl in a few days when I get back to my cherry red mx. Don't worry, tdl will understand what that means.

[TheDemonLord]

He slipped so many mickeys in there Disney lawyers will come a knocking. Rushed with cliche easily disproven premises as per usual. Dont feel bad mate, only the mildly astute picks up on them ;)
I will deal with tdl in a few days when I get back to my cherry red mx. Don't worry, tdl will understand what that means.

Take care, till then.

[sugilite]

Take care, till then.

Fuck it mate, the gop have finally done it, they found a dem voter that has been proven to have voted 10,000 times. Fuck. :Oops::mad:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/21/politics/patty-murray-10000th-vote/index.html

[sugilite]

Okay then - I've mentioned this in other threads and so I'll mention it again here - when it comes to Trump, you are very much on the 'There's no smoke without fire' train, you believe he's a criminal (or at least has committed criminal acts) and despite there being no successful prosecution, you still believe that.

Fine, you do you.

Yet, when I hold a position that is equally unproven, somehow I'm ridiculous?
Well, yes you are being ridiculous. Trump has never had to face accountability in his life, or near enough to never. His wealth, power and influence has shielded him, I'm sure from times even before daddy got him out of the draft. This week the civil rape trial starts. A man that makes statements you can and should listen to - it is evident to myself that a man that makes such utterances is definitely one that would force himself on a woman.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html
You can wait for a court of law if you wish, I don't need too. The pedigree of the man can easily be found in his own words. (over so many, many, many recordings, videos and self made tweets)
With the New York case, Georgia and the documents one, I'm sure you will get the convictions you require.


When I looked at some of the voting patterns in the US, going back ~150 years, there are a number of things 'odd' about the 2020 election. Odd doesn't 'prove' fraud, but that is the Smoke that 70% think means there is fire.
Oh, so smoke only = fire for your points, thanks for clearing that up.
You go on about this election having anomalies - ones I'm sure would have been caused by having the most divisive, polarizing president in history, and the election being held during a pandemic. It is hardly a mystery why things looked different.



The only thing I have got to take issue with is Mail-in Voting is not proven to be reliable. After the 2000 election Florida and Ohio (IIRC) both implemented a raft of legislation to tighten up some of the issues with Mail-in Voting and since those changes, in those states it is reliable.

Other states that did not have a history of large scale mail-in voting did not have those methods applied to their mail-in voting process. Does this prove fraud? No. But again, it's suspicious.
Despite there being no evidence of any widespread fraud with mail in voting, you are suspicious huh? I'm sure Florida and Ohio changing the laws had nothing to do with just making it harder for dem voters who traditionally vote by mail in larger numbers to vote eh :rolleyes:

All this is tiny, itsibitsie potatoes when compared to the us conservative party spreading a grotesque lie to the point of corrupting their followers views and believe that a free and fair election did not happen in 2020. They have lost faith in the underpinnings of democracy - and AGAIN, I point out, you appear to be all good with that. I still consider you to be a traitor to democracy and a disgrace to the true conservative movement. (I'm not trolling here)



Which Majority? There's an image that I'm 99% sure you've seen that shows the number of red counties vs number of blue counties in the US - and almost the entirety of the US, by area, is deeply conservative.
Pretty maps do not equal math sport. I'm not even going to say nice try on this one.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/04/11/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-court-ruling-threatens-mifepristone-access/?sh=3ae665817933


It's only the extremely densely populated cities that give the Democrats any victories. Granted, that numerically, they tend to outweigh the Republicans in terms of numbers - but I'm not sure you can so easily say it's flawed.
Them disney lawyers be coming for you. Ahem - popular vote win and loses below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_by_po pular_vote_margin



'The Dems have been very smart' - so it's naked Politicing then and nothing to do with Justice, thanks for the confirmation ;)
Mate, you going to need a new pair of running shoes for all these premature victory laps you keep running.
For years the us pollies had their snouts in the trough and come election time they all start pointing at the other side accusing them of crimes, that they never ever then act upon any further. It is just wink, wink, nudge nudge, then straight back to putting their snouts back into the trough. Even trump with his famous locker her up chants. Did he ever take it further?
My opinion is yes, the dem hierarchy DO have influence what charges and when they get laid. I do not know how much influence, but I very much assume they do have at least some. It is not just Trump I want to see face accountability, but the whole dam mother fucking load of those pollies. I welcome the gop to bring charges on shonky dems doings as well. Anything that brings pollies to justice, I'm all for.



It was proven to be a figment of the Dem's imagination. Nothing more, nothing less. At best, I'd say Mueller was an honest man who was himself deceived.

24 hours? The Twitter ban ran for weeks alone - and it wasn't just Twitter, it was FB, YT etc.

And again - it doesn't change the fact that there was Cabal-like behavior, where they admitted to 'Fortifying' the election. We have the source code that the level playing field was absolutely tipped in one direction, only in the favor of the Democrats. If you think that this makes it a fair and free election, then I'd like you to take every bit of rhetorhic you hurled at me over 'destroying Democracy' and read it aloud for yourself.

You may want to educate yourself. Watch the clip below to at least halfway through until the youtube presenter turns up (I cannot stand this one, just cannot be arsed looking for the same clip in another video).
Or are you balls deep on the rudy fruitcake train?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YORClvU_7Mg


Now, sure if you want to say 'look at what the RWNJs were posting' sure, then I get to say 'Look at what the Gender Activists were posting' - they weren't banned... Until Elon came along.
Were the gender activists posting misleading information to alter an election result? I did not realize.



As for Marxism - The problem is - you've read the work and you know I'm right on this - the ideologies that are currently in vogue amongst the Left all trace their roots back to the Frankfurt School, Gramscii and Marx.

I'll grant you that some of the people parroting these ideas probably don't know the source of the ideas or what the intended goal of them is - but that is not my concern. They are functionally no different than someone who does know the source and does have that as the intended goal - and so by that metric I damn both of them with the same critique.
Nice absolutism there mate,
Whilst living in Arkansas, and traveling through and staying in many other states, marxism, true marxism will not happen. Sure, plenty of wannabees, but given a true taste of what it looks like in it's totality, the wannabees would go running back to mummies skirts.
The fear that pours out of every bit of your being when it comes to marxism constitutes a form of mental disorder in my opinion.



Cause it doesn't work.

I'm being serious here. There is no evidence economically that increasing the Mininmum Wage helps poverty in the Long run. Now, I'll grant you that for a few short months, it will 'seem' to help - but Poverty is not a short-term problem for those who are most affective, so why would a short term 'fix' make any difference?
I'm fairly sure you would find zero support from a single lowly paid american for your idealist premise.


I'll give you one example here - do you know what the single biggest predictor is for long term success is? It's a two-parent (Mother and Father) household. I looked in his Poverty plan - I didn't see anything in there to address the rate of Divorce or the rate of single motherhood.

All I see is the same number of failed ideas that are based on the same flawed economic theories that underpin modern Leftism.

That in-of-itself wouldn't be that bad if those policy ideas were benign, but I put it to you that many of them over time compound the problem and make it worse. I often get accused of callousness - but what is more callous? Saying no in the short-term, so that the long-term prospects are better or saying yes in the short-term and damning the person in the long run.

You are correct, that certainly does need addressing, is there a plan from the right to address this issue? Whilst you go poking around in right wing policy pledges and so on, is there a gop replacement healthcare plan to replace obamacare yet? ;)


Okay then - tell you what, let's put aside the second amendment for a moment - I'm going to cherry pick two things here:

"The wrong people with guns is bad" and "In the group of response able peers you were with yes, I get that."

Simple question: How do you make sure only the reasonable people and not the wrong people have them?
A good start would be a proper gun licensing system similar to what we have here in nz, complete with referees, basic mental health tests and checks. Minimum age for certain gun types etc. Will it work 100%? If course not, but it would go some way to lower the gun violence there.



Greedy, Marxist fucks. And it wasn't a Travesty, it was an inevitability.
Those people deserve their voices to be heard. It absolutely was and is a travesty.



The problem for you is that if America is as bad as you say it is - why are Asians, Indians and first generation Immigrants crushing the White Population? Why are the systemic barriers that supposedly uphold 'whiteness' not hold back those groups? That's when they (The marxists) come up with terms like 'White adjacent' and other such nonsense.

There is a painful truth here - that if you tell a group that they are systematically oppressed and that no matter how hard they try, they'll never succeed - guess what? They'll believe it. That belief will then colour (pun intended) every interaction of theirs. Just like you accused me of seeing Marxism everywhere (although in my case, I have the academic citations to back it up) they will see Racism everywhere and then will act in accordance to that belief.

This is not anything new either - Sun Tzu even said it:

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.”

If you want to improve Race relations, first and foremost - you have to stop with the victim narrative even if there is some historic truth in that matter - because someone who believes they can succeed will find a way to.

There's other things as well - like the massive rate of Fatherlessness in the Black Community, Gangs and crime - but without that belief - you could fix everything else and still be screwed.

In Arkansas, Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabamma and Georgia, I witnessed many black towns that had houses barely standing, chronic poverty and so on. Kids born into this will find it hard to escape as they largely will have been swallowed by gangs etc before they are even teens. And that is just that issue they face.

I see you have craftily compared Asians, Indians and other first generations to whites this time.
You come across at times as a deep thinker, and other times the exact opposite. The answer to your question can be summed up in one word - they are highly motivated to succeed to the point of moving to another country to achieve their goals. My god man, do you even think about these things before posting? :facepalm:



Tip the scales the other way? In regards to Racial Justice? How has that worked out in the past? In a pile of bloody corpses as far as the eye can see. CRT has but one goal in mind, it's not Racial Justice - just like BLM was a Trojan horse for Greedy Fucks (your words, mind) CRT is a trojan horse for a revolution - you've even read the citations, yet still don't believe it.

I don't doubt your personal experience in terms of what you saw - I'm saying that the charge of 'Racism' required an interrogation of both the act and the mindset of the person doing it - to use the legal term: Mens rea - the guilty mind.

I heard an interaction recently between 2 people "Are you Indian?", "No, I'm not", "But your skin is Indian", "I'm not from india", "Where did you come from?", "I'm from New Zealand"

Sounds Racist as fuck, right? Now, let's re-read that with some Context. That was from a child, talking to a Nurse in hospital who had been learning about India in School. There was not a drop of racism, only curiosity and a child's clumsiness of speech.

Of course, not everyone is a Child - the point being that if you are inferring mindset purely on action - I'm going to call you up on it.

I read what the original authors of CRT say it is about, I read what the right wing attempt to portray it as in order to create the chicken little effect, and you are absolutely being chicken little. CRT in it's pure form is no trojan horse. So they have marxists ideas and leanings, big deal. CRT it self is a path to having an adjustment on laws that have not changed since slavery days and encourage discussing racism baked into laws. It is not about addressing individual racist people as the right is sooooooooooooooooooooooo desperately trying to make out.
The blindness to it is breathtaking, such as the queues I saw for a white teller over no queue for a black teller at the wallmart I visited near daily, I saw that so, so many times. The mural depicting slaves working in cotton fields at the local post office. If you were to interview these white people, they would not consider themselves racist at all. For the most part they are completely oblivious to their baked in prejudice. Some elements of CRT taught in schools could help address that. (I can feel R650's blood boiling from here)




That and the 'research' on implicit bias is completely bunk, to the point that the Authors of the research asked that it stopped be used in the manner that it was.

If you see no light between what I write and a White Supremecist - that's your call, I doubt you truly mean that, because I doubt you'd broke any words with a white supremecist - however, depending on how bored I get today, I may decide to test this theory - I'm sure I could cut out a few snippets of CRT texts and replace the word White with Black and see if you can tell the difference ;)

I encourage you to do this - but I would stipulate you use only CRT writings as written by the original authors of it. Go on, give it a go and lets see how you get on? :yes:



As a general rule, I disagree - I'm trying to think of an issue that wokeness has highlighted that needed to be addressed and requires Wokeness to be addressed. Can't think of one. Closest would be MeToo - but even that went too far.
Actually, there is hundreds of issues that more awareness would be good to have, single use plastics, mining practices (I'm doing my part there), health care issues. Now days anything even mildly inconvenient to ones lifestyle being bought up gets you an avalanche of woke accusations being leveled against you. A bit of balance would be nice.


So, you're Transphobic then....

Do you think maybe there's some connection here - like the Dems not backing off and saying 'You know what? This is too far.'? Like maybe if they stopping pushing it, then the conservative media would find something else to be annoyed about?


If it has gone to far, why do you criticize me and the right for pushing back? That's the only way to get back to Balance. Problem is, you know, as well as I do - that the moment you push back, you are in the same camp as me and you know you'll cop the same flak that I do, despite not agreeing with me on many subjects.

'Or otherwise' And that my Dear Sugi is part of the problem.

Pushing back is fine, absolutely fine. An avalanche of hate as evidenced by 20+ percent of fox news articles in one day is not acceptable. My god, they are still posting daily articles about the bud light saga :bash:
But the right is being so hypocritical about it all. As evidenced by one of their hero past presidents actually performing in at least two drag shows for the military and doing it in front of children no less. Yes, you read that right, a revered republican president performed in drag shows :shit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HautJ80SoU0



The conversation I see on Climate Change from the Left (which is why they get the label of Marxism) goes something like this:

"Capitalism is evil, it's ruining the environment, therefore we need to get rid of it and the only way to do that is to give all the power and money to the Government"

Normally with the first part conveniently omitted.

Now, if it's 'Or Otherwise' - then that is a very different set of problems to solve than if it's man-made. I've mentioned elsewhere I have an old book from the 90s about Energy and it's a lovely book and in it, it makes all sorts of energy predictions - none of them have come true. And these predictions are very milk-toast, not like the doomerism of the Climate mob today. I can go back 70 odd years to the 1950s and give you a laundry list of failed climate scares.

So when the Government says 'You need to change your entire lifestyle because Climate (oh and BTW we'll need to take some of your rights, money and freedom too)' - yeah, to say I'm skeptical would be a massive understatement. To say that I'm outright hostile when I see the same philosophers cited in the theory that drives it is probably more accurate.

Here is the thing though - I'm not opposed to 'Green' Technologies - My thoughts, to put them as succinctly as I can "When they are good enough, they will be able to compete on their own merits, without Government fiat".

That and there's a bit of 'You say I need to drive less, to save the planet, but you need to fly your private jet'. I see the claims as nothing more than 'Do as we say, not as I do'

My take on it is nature does not care one shit about the politics of climate change. We need to work together, the far left are being wankers about it, so are the far right. The two parties better get their shit sorted out, and fast.


The Dems are in a tough spot - Wokeness isn't popular, but it is what drives the Activist base. You could take one look at UK Politics to see this - you have Labour being wildly unelectable under Jeremy Corbyn and then Sir Keir Stamer trying to convince the party that it's not the party of Corbyn, Stamer doesn't have the minerals to do what Blair did in the 90s and oust all the Communists (although ironically, Blair turned out to be awful, but for different reasons). Then you've got the Tories who keep forgetting that they aren't meant to be Labour.

What the Left wing needs - and perhaps even more for the Right wing, is a new Left wing ideology that doesn't have it's roots in Marxism. Think like the 1980s left wing politics - that was heavily libertarian and (due to the Cold War) was still wary of Marxist ideas.

A new form of Left Wing Politics would naturally curb the excesses of the Right (as above - they Right keep pushing because the Left keep pushing - and IMO the Left drew first blood(
Sure, ok - the right needs to drop the daftest maga morons off too.




Ron ;)

:laugh:
Now find me the gop version of that nice articulate dem congressman. Are there any?

[TheDemonLord]

Well, yes you are being ridiculous. Trump has never had to face accountability in his life, or near enough to never. His wealth, power and influence has shielded him, I'm sure from times even before daddy got him out of the draft. This week the civil rape trial starts. A man that makes statements you can and should listen to - it is evident to myself that a man that makes such utterances is definitely one that would force himself on a woman.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html
You can wait for a court of law if you wish, I don't need too. The pedigree of the man can easily be found in his own words. (over so many, many, many recordings, videos and self made tweets)
With the New York case, Georgia and the documents one, I'm sure you will get the convictions you require.

That's nice and all - but if I hold you and your opinion on Trump to the same standard you hold me and my opinion on a certain election - there's a disconnect.

Despite both being an opinion, sincerely held, where the court outcomes do not backup said opinion.

All I'm saying is if you want to say 'But Trump is a Criminal', then by the same evidenciary basis, you can't say 'The Election was secure'. I'm just asking you to pick one.


Oh, so smoke only = fire for your points, thanks for clearing that up.
You go on about this election having anomalies - ones I'm sure would have been caused by having the most divisive, polarizing president in history, and the election being held during a pandemic. It is hardly a mystery why things looked different.

See above about Smoke and Fire.

Polarizing may be a factor - but I can think of other polarizing elections too. And 150 years or so of patterns isn't something you can just hand-waive away.


Despite there being no evidence of any widespread fraud with mail in voting, you are suspicious huh? I'm sure Florida and Ohio changing the laws had nothing to do with just making it harder for dem voters who traditionally vote by mail in larger numbers to vote eh :rolleyes:

You got a source for that last part? I've not been able to find some hard numbers as to the partisan split for Mail in Voters - so I'm not sure about that.

The Florida and Ohio law changes were more about the fact that the Bush/Gore election had to go all the way to the supreme court. Again, these states have a long history of larger than average Mail in voting, so it makes sense that they would be particularly affected by any issues.

I agree there is no direct evidence, but when you have states that have massive changes in how they run their elections, which corresponds with statistically significant changes in voting patters - it's suspicious.

Like it or not, that suspicion is both reasonable and well-founded.


All this is tiny, itsibitsie potatoes when compared to the us conservative party spreading a grotesque lie to the point of corrupting their followers views and believe that a free and fair election did not happen in 2020. They have lost faith in the underpinnings of democracy - and AGAIN, I point out, you appear to be all good with that. I still consider you to be a traitor to democracy and a disgrace to the true conservative movement. (I'm not trolling here)

Perhaps if the Democrats had been super squeeky clean during Trump's presidency and not subjected us to 4 years of made up accusations, not rigged internet discourse and not forced mass-mail in voting - then perhaps you might have a point.


Pretty maps do not equal math sport. I'm not even going to say nice try on this one.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2023/04/11/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-court-ruling-threatens-mifepristone-access/?sh=3ae665817933

An interesting article. I note some interesting segments - like claiming a majority support when the percentage of actual support is in the 40% range - but never-the-less, I'll take the stats as holy writ.

Here's my take - most people accept that Abortion is a necessary Evil. I'm very much in that camp, I'm pro-choice for various reasons.

That said, Roe represented bad law. It read into the constitution something that was never intended using some very impressive legal wrangling. Just so you do think this is a Republican talking - My view on Roe is almost functionally identical to that of Ruth Bader Ginsberg. Bad law should always be repealed.

What I see - is that the Activist wing of the Democrats are trying to glorify and normalize Abortion. If I'm being charitable, it's because someone shouldn't feel ashamed of having one, If I'm not being charitable - it's an attack on the Family and Children. Things like 'Shout your Abortion' or my personal favorite 'Abortion is Healthcare' - These are IMO wrong. And if the Left keeps trying to push this and won't back down and revert to the previous position 'Safe, Legal and Rare' - then the Republicans will keep pushing back.

Most Republicans that I've talked to don't want to outright ban Abortion - they just think there is a point in time after which it shouldn't be allowed (because after that, it's a Human, with all the rights that a Human gets) and that it shouldn't be too 'easy' - Someone should ask 'Are you sure this is the right thing to do?' - however when they see the excesses of the Democrats and what they are pushing for - those reasonable Republicans go 'Nope'.

and just so we are clear on the issue 900,000 performed in a year.



Them disney lawyers be coming for you. Ahem - popular vote win and loses below.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_by_po pular_vote_margin

Disagree - put it this way, if the individual states had electoral colleges, the USA wouldn't have seen a Democrat president, ever.


Mate, you going to need a new pair of running shoes for all these premature victory laps you keep running.
For years the us pollies had their snouts in the trough and come election time they all start pointing at the other side accusing them of crimes, that they never ever then act upon any further. It is just wink, wink, nudge nudge, then straight back to putting their snouts back into the trough. Even trump with his famous locker her up chants. Did he ever take it further?
My opinion is yes, the dem hierarchy DO have influence what charges and when they get laid. I do not know how much influence, but I very much assume they do have at least some. It is not just Trump I want to see face accountability, but the whole dam mother fucking load of those pollies. I welcome the gop to bring charges on shonky dems doings as well. Anything that brings pollies to justice, I'm all for.

Look, if you want to pull the Law and Order card, fine - but the moment you say that they are being smart about how and when to charge someone, in this context, you've just confirmed that it's got absolutely nothing to do with Law and Order. It's Politicking plain and simple.

Fīat jūstitia ruat cælum.

Let Justice be done, though heaven shall fall.



You may want to educate yourself. Watch the clip below to at least halfway through until the youtube presenter turns up (I cannot stand this one, just cannot be arsed looking for the same clip in another video).
Or are you balls deep on the rudy fruitcake train?

Watched it - Noted the many bait-and-switches, knowing a fair amount about computer forensics and data know that he's trying to play a forensic image of a Hard Drive as 'Not being the same hard drive' - the moment he pulled that Gem, I knew he was full of shit.


Were the gender activists posting misleading information to alter an election result? I did not realize.

No... They were only breaking the law, yet Twitter allowed them to continue on the platform (until Musk bought it).

See - here's the difference:

Republicans, not breaking the law - but doing something the Left doesn't like = Banned by Twitter at the behest of the FBI
Democrats, Breaking the law - but the Left is cool with it = allowed to continue.

If you want to say that this somehow represents 'A Level playing field', then that's fine - but I consider that to be philosophically equivalent to election tampering. You are stiffling the free speech of one side and one side only.



Nice absolutism there mate,
Whilst living in Arkansas, and traveling through and staying in many other states, marxism, true marxism will not happen. Sure, plenty of wannabees, but given a true taste of what it looks like in it's totality, the wannabees would go running back to mummies skirts.
The fear that pours out of every bit of your being when it comes to marxism constitutes a form of mental disorder in my opinion.

It's not absolutism, it is the painful truth. Hell the Marxist scholars even talked about this - they have a whole name devoted to this idea - Praxis.

Now, to be fair to your point - I agree most US states and most US citizens don't and will never want it.

That's not my concern.

My concern is how many corpses will be piled high if those plenty of wannabees get to give it a try before running back to Mummies Skirts.



I'm fairly sure you would find zero support from a single lowly paid american for your idealist premise.

This is not an idealist premise. In fact, the link between minimum wage and getting out of poverty is an idealist notion. This is cold, hard economic facts.

Look - at it's most basic if you want your 'average' workers to be paid more, you have to either increase demand or restrict supply. Increase in demand would be growing more businesses, new technologies, getting people into new areas to work. Restricting supply would be have a net-zero Immigration policy. Government Legislation does not shift the graph.

And we know this because as the Minimum wage increases, various jobs that predominantly were done by School-age kids that provided minimal value disappeared - I remember being shown to my seat in the Movies by a pimply faced teen with a torch - doesn't happen now. Why? Because the cost of the wage is more than the value provided.


You are correct, that certainly does need addressing, is there a plan from the right to address this issue? Whilst you go poking around in right wing policy pledges and so on, is there a gop replacement healthcare plan to replace obamacare yet? ;)

https://www.mediamatters.org/tim-pool/after-roe-conservatives-set-their-sights-ending-no-fault-divorce-laws

Put aside the hyperbole of 'staying in violent marriages' - it's a Left source, so it's got to get it's two cents in - There's an idea.


I mean, it's not like the idea of destroying the Nuclear Family hasn't been a hallmark of radical leftism for over a hundred years... (https://www.csustan.edu/sites/default/files/History/Faculty/Weikart/Marx-Engels-and-the-Abolition-of-the-Family.pdf)


A good start would be a proper gun licensing system similar to what we have here in nz, complete with referees, basic mental health tests and checks. Minimum age for certain gun types etc. Will it work 100%? If course not, but it would go some way to lower the gun violence there.

Okay then - suppose I accept that, here's the rub - if that's your standard (and to be clear, it's a pretty good standard - no argument from me) - you have to accept that if and when it fails, that you don't go banning things when something happens due to government Incompetence.

The issue is, I know your feelings as and when that did happen, so I wouldn't trust it.


Those people deserve their voices to be heard. It absolutely was and is a travesty.

The history of Marxist Kleptocrats would disagree.


In Arkansas, Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabamma and Georgia, I witnessed many black towns that had houses barely standing, chronic poverty and so on. Kids born into this will find it hard to escape as they largely will have been swallowed by gangs etc before they are even teens. And that is just that issue they face.

So, what is the solution here?

First and foremost - it's Law and Order. You cannot build a high-trust society with high crime. It doesn't work. That means more policing, more well-trained police. Not defunding the Police.
Next, it's the family - those young boys and young men who get swallowed by the Gangs? They need Fathers or at the very least a strong father figure. I can't recall the study - but it's something like most of the negative effects of fatherlessness on an individual can be mititgated if that individual is otherwise surrounded by other families with Fathers.
Then its culture - This is a hard one - but what the Smithsonian called 'Whiteness' could be summed up as 'Work hard and respect other people' - If that is what Whiteness is and Blackness is not Whiteness (thanks CRT Scholars), then what does that say about Blackness?
Then it's Business and jobs - Idle hands are the devils tools and all that.



I see you have craftily compared Asians, Indians and other first generations to whites this time.
You come across at times as a deep thinker, and other times the exact opposite. The answer to your question can be summed up in one word - they are highly motivated to succeed to the point of moving to another country to achieve their goals. My god man, do you even think about these things before posting? :facepalm:

Asians and Indians though can be 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation Americans - so know, they aren't motivated to succeed just by moving to another country - nice bait and switch.

I put it to you that it is the strong values of family and a focus on Success has lead them to get to the top in a Meritocratic system.

Again - if the America was truly white supremacist, as is the claim, this would not be allowed.



I read what the original authors of CRT say it is about, I read what the right wing attempt to portray it as in order to create the chicken little effect, and you are absolutely being chicken little. CRT in it's pure form is no trojan horse. So they have marxists ideas and leanings, big deal. CRT it self is a path to having an adjustment on laws that have not changed since slavery days and encourage discussing racism baked into laws. It is not about addressing individual racist people as the right is sooooooooooooooooooooooo desperately trying to make out.

They have Marxist ideas and want to implement racial Marxism. What could possibly go wrong? If it's not about addressing individual racists, why do they spend so much time educating individuals into Anti-Racism?

But let's be charitable for a moment - if CRT was only about adjusting laws that have not changed since Slavery - then the majority of CRT discussion should focus on those laws, right? Why do I not see that from the likes of Kimberle Crenshaw? Derrick Bell? etc.



The blindness to it is breathtaking, such as the queues I saw for a white teller over no queue for a black teller at the wallmart I visited near daily, I saw that so, so many times. The mural depicting slaves working in cotton fields at the local post office. If you were to interview these white people, they would not consider themselves racist at all. For the most part they are completely oblivious to their baked in prejudice. Some elements of CRT taught in schools could help address that. (I can feel R650's blood boiling from here)

You are essentially repeating the Implicit Bias assumptions. Again, I must point out that these were so flawed that the original author of the concept had to come out and say 'please stop using it like that'.

If people do not consider themselves as Racist and you are making the claim that they are Racist - we have an impasse. Essentially this is an accusation of a thought crime, for which there is no valid defence (because you've already judged them as guilty).

But again, let's be charitable, there is nothing unique to CRT that could address that in any meaningful way. I'm very serious about that point.



I encourage you to do this - but I would stipulate you use only CRT writings as written by the original authors of it. Go on, give it a go and lets see how you get on? :yes:

I'll do that tonight - for various reasons. Namely public Wi-Fi atm.


Actually, there is hundreds of issues that more awareness would be good to have, single use plastics, mining practices (I'm doing my part there), health care issues. Now days anything even mildly inconvenient to ones lifestyle being bought up gets you an avalanche of woke accusations being leveled against you. A bit of balance would be nice.

You'll note I added a key caveat 'That requires Wokeness' - none of those examples require Wokeness. The accusation of Wokeness is when a small minority use Government force to make people live the way that they want them to (afterall, Wokeness is a totalitarian ideology).



Pushing back is fine, absolutely fine. An avalanche of hate as evidenced by 20+ percent of fox news articles in one day is not acceptable. My god, they are still posting daily articles about the bud light saga :bash:

Have the left accepted that maybe they've gone too far and that Biological Sex is, in fact, a reality?

No?

Then let the 'avalanche of hate' as you call it flow. As I said, the Left keeps pushing and then complains why they get a reaction.




But the right is being so hypocritical about it all. As evidenced by one of their hero past presidents actually performing in at least two drag shows for the military and doing it in front of children no less. Yes, you read that right, a revered republican president performed in drag shows :shit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HautJ80SoU0

I'll watch later - but I suspect it's going to be more akin to the Christmas Pantomime Dame (Oh no it isn't!) than a modern Drag show.

Now, for context - I've seen Drag shows, I think Drag queens are hilarious. As adult entertainment. Nothing wrong with it being Adult Entertainment. If we get back to the more 'traditional' cross-dressing acts - such the aforementioned Panto Dame - the comedy is that it's clearly a man, dressed as a Woman, with a silly voice. It's not someone in fishnets and a corset stripping off.

I mean, I saw a video the other day, in a school, of a pupil getting a lap dance from a Drag Queen.

I want to ask everyone this: Is there a context where you would ever accept an under 16 year old, getting grinded on by an adult male in lingerie? Cause I sure as shit can't.

This is what is riling Republicans up so much - something that is so far beyond the pail that to any reasonable observer it's wrong, yet not only was it allowed, but when it's pulled up - it's defended.




My take on it is nature does not care one shit about the politics of climate change. We need to work together, the far left are being wankers about it, so are the far right. The two parties better get their shit sorted out, and fast.

I think we'll be fine. That said, a bit more Nuclear Power, perhaps a way to leverage wave energy and a reduction in coal-fired power stations would be a good thing.

That and drop the naked anti-capitalism Maxists off at the street corner.



Sure, ok - the right needs to drop the daftest maga morons off too.

After the Democrats pull back, not before (and I don't think they will pull back) remember - MAGA arouse out of the excesses of the Left under Obama.




:laugh:
Now find me the gop version of that nice articulate dem congressman. Are there any?

Okay, so not a Congressman - but Nick Freitas is a good example. I'll post a link later.

[sugilite]

That's nice and all - but if I hold you and your opinion on Trump to the same standard you hold me and my opinion on a certain election - there's a disconnect.

Despite both being an opinion, sincerely held, where the court outcomes do not backup said opinion.

All I'm saying is if you want to say 'But Trump is a Criminal', then by the same evidentiary basis, you can't say 'The Election was secure'. I'm just asking you to pick one.
Lets see, I supply audio of a man boasting about forcing himself on woman as evidence, and you in turn provide me with ........no evidence what so ever of corrupt voting - none. Then you attempt to make a play like you your holding a super strong poker hand. Your all bluff n fluff mate :lol:



Polarizing may be a factor - but I can think of other polarizing elections too. And 150 years or so of patterns isn't something you can just hand-waive away.
And none of those elections have a polarizer like trump or voted through an active pandemic. And you expect it to produce results in line with other elections? Oh and no proof of vote fixing has been found despite it being the most scrutinized election in history. Keep digging mate, you might make it to spain lol





You got a source for that last part? I've not been able to find some hard numbers as to the partisan split for Mail in Voters - so I'm not sure about that.

The Florida and Ohio law changes were more about the fact that the Bush/Gore election had to go all the way to the supreme court. Again, these states have a long history of larger than average Mail in voting, so it makes sense that they would be particularly affected by any issues.

I agree there is no direct evidence, but when you have states that have massive changes in how they run their elections, which corresponds with statistically significant changes in voting patters - it's suspicious.

Like it or not, that suspicion is both reasonable and well-founded.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/11/20/the-voting-experience-in-2020/ for dems vs gop voter percentages
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-absentee-voting-looked-like-in-all-50-states/ for overalls.
Look how they discuss in the first paragraph how different the pandemic made things from other elections - as any reasonable person would expect.

"We may have seen it coming, but now we know for sure: The coronavirus pandemic made the 2020 election look different from any other election in recent memory. Due to the massive expansion of mail voting, a staggering number of Americans cast their ballots before Election Day. And due to then-President Donald Trump’s false claims that mail voting would lead to election fraud, a huge partisan gap emerged between ballots cast by mail and ballots cast on Election Day."
ahhhh yes, Trump priming his base warning of vast mail in fraud before voting had ever started. His big lie had started before the election had started. I remember Trump accusing bunches of Republicans of the same thing in the mid term primaries just run for fucks sake. Any time votes don't go his or his endorsements way out comes the voter fraud megaphone:lol:


Perhaps if the Democrats had been super squeeky clean during Trump's presidency and not subjected us to 4 years of made up accusations, not rigged internet discourse and not forced mass-mail in voting - then perhaps you might have a point.
You so desperately struggling to come up with anything of substance here, and when faced with the avalanche of proof that trump and the gop lied about the fraud, thus undermining 70% of gop voters from confidence in free elections. It is an incredible attack on democracy and you are trying to pretend like that did not happen. It's pitiful mate.
So much is coming out near daily now. Listen to the audio tapes that ex fox exec released with Peter Navaro today mate. Holy shit!!! But hey, keep clinging to the concrete filled life ring marked SS Trump.



Here's my take - most people accept that Abortion is a necessary Evil. I'm very much in that camp, I'm pro-choice for various reasons.

That said, Roe represented bad law. It read into the constitution something that was never intended using some very impressive legal wrangling. Just so you do think this is a Republican talking - My view on Roe is almost functionally identical to that of Ruth Bader Ginsberg. Bad law should always be repealed.

What I see - is that the Activist wing of the Democrats are trying to glorify and normalize Abortion. If I'm being charitable, it's because someone shouldn't feel ashamed of having one, If I'm not being charitable - it's an attack on the Family and Children. Things like 'Shout your Abortion' or my personal favorite 'Abortion is Healthcare' - These are IMO wrong. And if the Left keeps trying to push this and won't back down and revert to the previous position 'Safe, Legal and Rare' - then the Republicans will keep pushing back.

Most Republicans that I've talked to don't want to outright ban Abortion - they just think there is a point in time after which it shouldn't be allowed (because after that, it's a Human, with all the rights that a Human gets) and that it shouldn't be too 'easy' - Someone should ask 'Are you sure this is the right thing to do?' - however when they see the excesses of the Democrats and what they are pushing for - those reasonable Republicans go 'Nope'.

and just so we are clear on the issue 900,000 performed in a year.

None of the waffle above addresses my point, that percentage wise, the abortion issue has the gop running against the grain, and it is costing them more votes than it is gaining.



Disagree - put it this way, if the individual states had electoral colleges, the USA wouldn't have seen a Democrat president, ever.

Wow, what does it say about your team when you say it would need the weird electoral college scam, opps scheme to give the gop a hand up - sad.



Look, if you want to pull the Law and Order card, fine - but the moment you say that they are being smart about how and when to charge someone, in this context, you've just confirmed that it's got absolutely nothing to do with Law and Order. It's Politicking plain and simple.

Fīat jūstitia ruat cælum.

Let Justice be done, though heaven shall fall.
This is super weak as I'm pulling the law and order card for BOTH sides.
Crimes were committed, just because they are politicians and politicking does not mean there is not an actual crime to be addressed. Fucking hell, this is desperate stuff from you :shutup:


Watched it - Noted the many bait-and-switches, knowing a fair amount about computer forensics and data know that he's trying to play a forensic image of a Hard Drive as 'Not being the same hard drive' - the moment he pulled that Gem, I knew he was full of shit.
Holy crap, yet more smoke and mirrors from you - so WHO handed over said hard drive? Oh yes rudy, fuck knows what had happened to it before then. Unless a goverment agency had busted in and confiscated the hard drive directly, the integrity of the data on said drive cannot be trusted. Pretty basic shit mate.



No... They were only breaking the law, yet Twitter allowed them to continue on the platform (until Musk bought it).

See - here's the difference:

Republicans, not breaking the law - but doing something the Left doesn't like = Banned by Twitter at the behest of the FBI
Democrats, Breaking the law - but the Left is cool with it = allowed to continue.

If you want to say that this somehow represents 'A Level playing field', then that's fine - but I consider that to be philosophically equivalent to election tampering. You are stiffling the free speech of one side and one side only.
You have a lot to say about this, is there proof the fbi asked twitter to shadow ban accounts? (real proof please)



It's not absolutism, it is the painful truth. Hell the Marxist scholars even talked about this - they have a whole name devoted to this idea - Praxis.

Now, to be fair to your point - I agree most US states and most US citizens don't and will never want it.

That's not my concern.

My concern is how many corpses will be piled high if those plenty of wannabees get to give it a try before running back to Mummies Skirts.
Oh that is so fucking rich, NOW you are concerned about bodies piling up, yet happy to sacrifice hundreds of school kids on the alter of the 2nd amendment - and those are bodies that are actually piling up - not mythical ones that may come from a pretty fucking unlikely marxists uprising. HOLY SHIT you are a piece of work!

So what? You are you worried Russia and China are going to start arming the academics (the opera singers can be the reserve troops) and marxisym is going to sweep the states???? As soon as these wannabee young marxists figure out this shit is going to take hard work, they will be heading back for their latees and social media posting :laugh:

Shit man you should of seen US faces when I was talking about the NZ Government owning the electricity grids, telecommunications and other such entities back in the 70's and 80's they were horrified at the communism we all lived under then lol. Marxism has about as much chance of taking hold in the US in our lifetime as you making a calm and rational post regarding the actual realistic threat of Marxism :facepalm:


This is not an idealist premise. In fact, the link between minimum wage and getting out of poverty is an idealist notion. This is cold, hard economic facts.

Look - at it's most basic if you want your 'average' workers to be paid more, you have to either increase demand or restrict supply. Increase in demand would be growing more businesses, new technologies, getting people into new areas to work. Restricting supply would be have a net-zero Immigration policy. Government Legislation does not shift the graph.
I do not agree at all. It is a pain in the arse for me to pay my workers living wages, but I do because they deserve to be able to live at a reasonable standard. Someone said earlier, if the eltes keep being grreedy they will hang from the trees as history repeats yet again. There needs to be balance. You talk as if life lives in statistical journals - it does not.



And we know this because as the Minimum wage increases, various jobs that predominantly were done by School-age kids that provided minimal value disappeared - I remember being shown to my seat in the Movies by a pimply faced teen with a torch - doesn't happen now. Why? Because the cost of the wage is more than the value provided.
More like they have cut that public service out to enrich themselves further. Find your own fucken seat and I'll pocket the extra. Similar to the rort of self checkout, pack your own fucken groceries and we will hire less humans and pocket the difference.



https://www.mediamatters.org/tim-pool/after-roe-conservatives-set-their-sights-ending-no-fault-divorce-laws

Put aside the hyperbole of 'staying in violent marriages' - it's a Left source, so it's got to get it's two cents in - There's an idea.


I mean, it's not like the idea of destroying the Nuclear Family hasn't been a hallmark of radical leftism for over a hundred years... (https://www.csustan.edu/sites/default/files/History/Faculty/Weikart/Marx-Engels-and-the-Abolition-of-the-Family.pdf)

Seriously, that is the best policy you can find from the right to tackle what the blacks are facing? Nothing else? Big government forcing bad relationships to keep at it is going to in some way save and elevate them as a race? My fucking god man :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:



Okay then - suppose I accept that, here's the rub - if that's your standard (and to be clear, it's a pretty good standard - no argument from me) - you have to accept that if and when it fails, that you don't go banning things when something happens due to government Incompetence.
If and when it fails, For fucks sake man, it never started!


So, what is the solution here?



First and foremost - it's Law and Order. You cannot build a high-trust society with high crime. It doesn't work. That means more policing, more well-trained police. Not defunding the Police.
Next, it's the family - those young boys and young men who get swallowed by the Gangs? They need Fathers or at the very least a strong father figure. I can't recall the study - but it's something like most of the negative effects of fatherlessness on an individual can be mititgated if that individual is otherwise surrounded by other families with Fathers.
Then its culture - This is a hard one - but what the Smithsonian called 'Whiteness' could be summed up as 'Work hard and respect other people' - If that is what Whiteness is and Blackness is not Whiteness (thanks CRT Scholars), then what does that say about Blackness?
Then it's Business and jobs - Idle hands are the devils tools and all that.
Fair enough, so what are the GOP policies to address this?




Asians and Indians though can be 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation Americans - so know, they aren't motivated to succeed just by moving to another country - nice bait and switch.

I put it to you that it is the strong values of family and a focus on Success has lead them to get to the top in a Meritocratic system.

Again - if the America was truly white supremacist, as is the claim, this would not be allowed.

Bait and switch - Why are we talking about Asians and Indians anyway? This is misdirection by you. They were not born into black communities, thus their situation is not comparable. Pfffft.



They have Marxist ideas and want to implement racial Marxism. What could possibly go wrong? If it's not about addressing individual racists, why do they spend so much time educating individuals into Anti-Racism?

But let's be charitable for a moment - if CRT was only about adjusting laws that have not changed since Slavery - then the majority of CRT discussion should focus on those laws, right? Why do I not see that from the likes of Kimberle Crenshaw? Derrick Bell? etc.
Are you talking about their work pertaining to CRT, or are you talking about other work they have done? I'm talking about CRT itself.





You are essentially repeating the Implicit Bias assumptions. Again, I must point out that these were so flawed that the original author of the concept had to come out and say 'please stop using it like that'.

If people do not consider themselves as Racist and you are making the claim that they are Racist - we have an impasse. Essentially this is an accusation of a thought crime, for which there is no valid defence (because you've already judged them as guilty).

But again, let's be charitable, there is nothing unique to CRT that could address that in any meaningful way. I'm very serious about that point.

I'm telling you what I saw. Why were white people queuing for white tellers when black tellers were available a few meters away? - remember I saw the phenomenon pretty much daily.





I'll do that tonight - for various reasons. Namely public Wi-Fi atm.
I'm really looking forward to this - make sure your switching races premis to see what it looks like is applied to actual CRT as published by the acknowledged authors of CRT.




You'll note I added a key caveat 'That requires Wokeness' - none of those examples require Wokeness. The accusation of Wokeness is when a small minority use Government force to make people live the way that they want them to (afterall, Wokeness is a totalitarian ideology).
Interesting, where exactly are you getting this official definition of wokeness from - sources please?

Maybe you could forward it to this republican author who wrote a book on wokeness, and yet - can still not define it :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0hsg5mz18ew
Interviewer: "oh, you can take your time" :laugh:



Have the left accepted that maybe they've gone too far and that Biological Sex is, in fact, a reality?

No?

Then let the 'avalanche of hate' as you call it flow. As I said, the Left keeps pushing and then complains why they get a reaction.

My trans child, and associates that I've met - politics is the further-est things from their mind. They literally never talk about it or consider it, but it is ok for them to be attacked constantly as though they are?
Fuck you.



I'll watch later - but I suspect it's going to be more akin to the Christmas Pantomime Dame (Oh no it isn't!) than a modern Drag show.
Cummon man, that's all you got? Surely even you can find just how fucking hilarious it is that we have Ronald Reagan dressed in drag, performing a drag show for the military and kids. GOLD!!!!


Now, for context - I've seen Drag shows, I think Drag queens are hilarious. As adult entertainment. Nothing wrong with it being Adult Entertainment. If we get back to the more 'traditional' cross-dressing acts - such the aforementioned Panto Dame - the comedy is that it's clearly a man, dressed as a Woman, with a silly voice. It's not someone in fishnets and a corset stripping off.

I mean, I saw a video the other day, in a school, of a pupil getting a lap dance from a Drag Queen.

I want to ask everyone this: Is there a context where you would ever accept an under 16 year old, getting grinded on by an adult male in lingerie? Cause I sure as shit can't.

This is what is riling Republicans up so much - something that is so far beyond the pail that to any reasonable observer it's wrong, yet not only was it allowed, but when it's pulled up - it's defended.
Sigh........ we have covered this exact ground several times. You know I don't agree with transvestites in schools, even for basic story time yet alone grinding. It is the exception (that needs to stop) not the rule for trans people and the issues they are facing. The right are just gas lighting so badly that trans are starting to turn up murdered. I have valid worries for my child because of that.



I think we'll be fine. That said, a bit more Nuclear Power, perhaps a way to leverage wave energy and a reduction in coal-fired power stations would be a good thing.
It might take a bit more than that to fix the issue.


That and drop the naked anti-capitalism Maxists off at the street corner.
I would counter, there is already a bunch there, you trying to start a turf war?




After the Democrats pull back, not before (and I don't think they will pull back) remember - MAGA arouse out of the excesses of the Left under Obama.
Ahhh, the well worn hallmark of diplomacy - not. God forbid that any balanced calm dialog break out, where the votes in that eh?





Okay, so not a Congressman - but Nick Freitas is a good example. I'll post a link later.
Make it a Congressman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now as an aside, I notice as one continues to engage you, imo your walls of text get ever larger and wilder. My perception is you do this knowing most do not have the time or inclination to counter - thus fall silent. You use this silence to walk away and within your mind at least "celebrate a win".
Now in regards to me, you say you like to debate me and that's fine. But the reality of my reply above is, you only got one because I was a greedy fuck and had wayyyyy to much spicy rich food before going to sleep. I woke up in the early hours gagging on acid. So I had to get up and wait for my stomach to come right - that is literally the only reason you got the reply above!
My interpretation you debate me as if I'm some left wing zealot. I like balanced discussion, and at present I find debating you is like having teamed up for a three legged race with an below the right knee amputee who is still awaiting the prosthetic to arrive in the mail. As a result we just end up running around in clockwise circles. It gets old fast and one validly feels they are getting nowhere, either singularly or as a team.

The wall of text approach is akin to you being the kiwibiker version of Mister Organ - just without the malice. If you don't get the reference, download the movie Mister Organ, it is a kiwi doco worth a watch. Part of Mister Organs approach is he is very intelligent, yet grinds down his opponents with a never ending avalanche of super boring and often inaccurate shit. That is how I view your walls of text. If you want me to engage further, try some more balance please. If not, you will need to pack your most important messaging into the first paragraph, as I won't be bothering to read or commenting on any more than said first paragraph - that is of a reasonable length I should add! ;)

[TheDemonLord]

Lets see, I supply audio of a man boasting about forcing himself on woman as evidence, and you in turn provide me with ........no evidence what so ever of corrupt voting - none. Then you attempt to make a play like you your holding a super strong poker hand. Your all bluff n fluff mate :lol:

Sounds like we are doing the 'Grab em by the pussy' line again. I mean, it's not like certain Trump quotes have been taken wildly out of context (Bleach, MS-13 etc. etc.) - even then though, your audio misses the point I was making.

You say 'boasting about forcing himself on a woman'
I say 'boasting about fortifying an election'


And none of those elections have a polarizer like trump or voted through an active pandemic. And you expect it to produce results in line with other elections? Oh and no proof of vote fixing has been found despite it being the most scrutinized election in history. Keep digging mate, you might make it to spain lol

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/11/20/the-voting-experience-in-2020/ for dems vs gop voter percentages
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-absentee-voting-looked-like-in-all-50-states/ for overalls.
Look how they discuss in the first paragraph how different the pandemic made things from other elections - as any reasonable person would expect.

"We may have seen it coming, but now we know for sure: The coronavirus pandemic made the 2020 election look different from any other election in recent memory. Due to the massive expansion of mail voting, a staggering number of Americans cast their ballots before Election Day. And due to then-President Donald Trump’s false claims that mail voting would lead to election fraud, a huge partisan gap emerged between ballots cast by mail and ballots cast on Election Day."
ahhhh yes, Trump priming his base warning of vast mail in fraud before voting had ever started. His big lie had started before the election had started. I remember Trump accusing bunches of Republicans of the same thing in the mid term primaries just run for fucks sake. Any time votes don't go his or his endorsements way out comes the voter fraud megaphone:lol:

What was mostly missing was a historic breakdown of Left vs right in Mail-in voting - however, I'm going to use the second link to make this point: it does show the 2016 Election and it shows that Mail-in voting wasn't particularly partisan. Then, with a large expansion of Mail in voting, we see it heavily partisan.

That, in of itself, is statistically interesting. You have a significant change in how an Election is conducted and that change seems to favor one-side heavily. In any other context, that would be called 'Gerrymandering'.

Now - you say his big lie started before the election - From your point of view, he was prepping for his loss, priming his base etc. A different point of view is that based on the historical precedents, like the 2000 election where inadequate controls over Mail-in voting caused issues - he had a valid concern over states that massively expanded mail-in voting due to the pandemic, which turned out to be correct.

I still put it to you that Trump is as polarizing in 2020 (and 2024 ;) ) as he was in 2016 - and so your claim of that this discrepancies are caused purely off that basis (for me) don't hold enough water to support that. What I'm interested to see is what the 2024 numbers look like, especially if Trump is the Candidate. If we see numbers in terms of votes case and splits that look similar to 2016, then we will be able to reasonably infer that 2020 had issues. If we see numbers between 2024 and 2020, then we won't.


You so desperately struggling to come up with anything of substance here, and when faced with the avalanche of proof that trump and the gop lied about the fraud, thus undermining 70% of gop voters from confidence in free elections. It is an incredible attack on democracy and you are trying to pretend like that did not happen. It's pitiful mate.

Let me you ask this: if the 2020 election had been run under normal voting conditions (e.g. no mass mail in voting) - Do you think this would have happened? I will grant you that a fringe number of Republicans wouldn't have accepted the result either way, like the fringe number of Democrats who didn't in 2016 - but the 70% number you keep citing wouldn't hold that belief.

Mail in voting was pushed by the Democrats and heavily favored them - that alone doesn't pass a sniff test. That's the bit you completely ignore.


None of the waffle above addresses my point, that percentage wise, the abortion issue has the gop running against the grain, and it is costing them more votes than it is gaining.

The only areas it is costing them votes, are areas which they are never going to win anyway. There's a few states that are deep red and have implemented Abortion Bans - I haven't seen any dip in support in those areas.



Wow, what does it say about your team when you say it would need the weird electoral college scam, opps scheme to give the gop a hand up - sad.

It's not a Scam though - I mean the Electoral College was founded because of a fear that more populous states would end up controlling less populous states. That Democracy, absent any checks and balances, is tyranny of the Majority over the Minority - which in the US context is an affront to Freedom.

If that argument can be applied to the country as a whole, there is no reason why it shouldn't be applied to the individual states.

My point being that this seems to be happening at a State level - if every county can vote red, but a single city can vote blue and that swings the state blue - is that a proportional, representative Democracy?



This is super weak as I'm pulling the law and order card for BOTH sides.
Crimes were committed, just because they are politicians and politicking does not mean there is not an actual crime to be addressed. Fucking hell, this is desperate stuff from you :shutup:

Sure - then it needs to be addressed absent a political time frame. The moment a charge is leveled purely on a political basis, I'm going to call it bunk. The m



Holy crap, yet more smoke and mirrors from you - so WHO handed over said hard drive? Oh yes rudy, fuck knows what had happened to it before then. Unless a goverment agency had busted in and confiscated the hard drive directly, the integrity of the data on said drive cannot be trusted. Pretty basic shit mate.

Yeah.... No. Again, this is my Wheelhouse - I've done a bit of this type of work. Given the behavior of certain Government Agencies, They would be the last people I would be handing it to.

There's a multitude of factors that swayed me that the HDD was legit. You've asked for brevity, so I will try and give it: On the email chains, especially the ones that were the focus of the accusations of corruption against both Hunter and Joe - we are able to verify the information was valid in 2 different ways: Firstly through 3rd party logs - That is, other people CC'd in on the Email chain - we saw confirmation from those people that this was the email (and IIRC when a forensic deep-dive was done, they validated the headers) - secondly through real life events. If you have an email, confirming a business meeting and you have confirmation that the 2 people in question did in fact meet, it tends to say the email was valid.

In order to 'fake' it, as is being claimed, you would need to go back in time, hack both mail servers (recipient and sender) and arrange for 2 people to meet - now, state-level hacking is pretty damn sophisticated, but time travel and hacking Google isn't on their list of capabilities.



You have a lot to say about this, is there proof the fbi asked twitter to shadow ban accounts? (real proof please)

I've given it previously - multiple times. I've even given the Democrat rep who sent an email going 'guys, this is going against the 1st amendment'.


Oh that is so fucking rich, NOW you are concerned about bodies piling up, yet happy to sacrifice hundreds of school kids on the alter of the 2nd amendment - and those are bodies that are actually piling up - not mythical ones that may come from a pretty fucking unlikely marxists uprising. HOLY SHIT you are a piece of work!

Hundreds of dead compared to tens of Millions of dead.

You're damn right I'm worried about the greater of two evils.

And before you call me Evil - think on this - everyday you get in a Car you are making the same statistical argument I'm making. You might kill someone or someone's elses family - you might die or you might end up loosing your Family - yet the utility and value of having personal transport is so great that you are willing to Risk it and you take precautions that nothing bad happens.


So what? You are you worried Russia and China are going to start arming the academics (the opera singers can be the reserve troops) and marxisym is going to sweep the states???? As soon as these wannabee young marxists figure out this shit is going to take hard work, they will be heading back for their latees and social media posting :laugh:

I mean firstly, McCarthy was right, I just want to remind everyone of that historical precedent.
Secondly, Let's take the most recent Commune, in the United States - CHAZ/CHOP - did they go back to their Lates and Social Media?

Or, was it, that when the glorious revolution failed to usher in utopia - it wasn't that the idea was wrong, it was that the people weren't motivated enough - and that's when the murders started happening

How many historical examples do I need to point to where the revolutionaries, after they took over everything and everything fell apart - didn't as you say 'Head back to Lates and Social Media' - they instead engaged in brutal repression?


Shit man you should of seen US faces when I was talking about the NZ Government owning the electricity grids, telecommunications and other such entities back in the 70's and 80's they were horrified at the communism we all lived under then lol. Marxism has about as much chance of taking hold in the US in our lifetime as you making a calm and rational post regarding the actual realistic threat of Marxism :facepalm:

Just humour me this question: Did you then go to a Californian University campus and asked the same questions? Because I'm willing to bet the responses you would get from the people who are likely to be the next generation of leaders would be somewhat different.

IIRC - Arkansas is a deep red state - which would explain that reaction.


I do not agree at all. It is a pain in the arse for me to pay my workers living wages, but I do because they deserve to be able to live at a reasonable standard. Someone said earlier, if the eltes keep being grreedy they will hang from the trees as history repeats yet again. There needs to be balance. You talk as if life lives in statistical journals - it does not.

Why is it a pain in the arse? And more importantly - would government regulation make it more or less of a pain in the arse?

Which elites being greedy? Those same ones with Pro-nouns in their bios, BLM flags on their social Media? Just wondering.

However - still doesn't address the point, as painful as it is, that in pure economics - it does not help. There are a myriad of other factors that have far more influence over it - to the point you can increase the Minimum wage and make Poverty worse (just like the last 6 years of Labour in NZ)


More like they have cut that public service out to enrich themselves further. Find your own fucken seat and I'll pocket the extra. Similar to the rort of self checkout, pack your own fucken groceries and we will hire less humans and pocket the difference.

You mean that as you increase regulation, Companies cut jobs to maintain their profit margin? Almost sounds like you are making the Conservative argument for decreasing government regulation is the best way to increase jobs, which leads to increased competitions from businesses for workers, which leaders to the worker having greater bargaining power for asking for higher wages.

Your MAGA hat will be in the post ;)


Seriously, that is the best policy you can find from the right to tackle what the blacks are facing? Nothing else? Big government forcing bad relationships to keep at it is going to in some way save and elevate them as a race? My fucking god man :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

I could post up a clip of Chris Rock in a stand-up show criticising the African American community for it's attitudes towards fatherhood - from about 20 years ago. The Family is both a microcosm of society and also the bedrock upon which everything else rests.

Now, if it makes you happy, I'd like to see Republicans, Conservatives, National et al be much more forceful in their articulation of why a strong family unit is a necessity and maybe pushback on the idea that if you are unhappy, you should just get divorced.

I mean - when their own community is calling them out for this self-destructive behavior and culture and they continue to do it - at what point does the reasonable person say 'You've been given good advice that you are ignoring, you're on your own'


If and when it fails, For fucks sake man, it never started!

So, what is the solution here?

New Zealand. And you supported it. Although to be fair, I did manage to tease out of you a 'Perhaps they went too far', so I don't want to appear to hard on that point.

That is why people like me don't believe anybody who says 'Oh, if we just do this one thing, it won't happen again' - it will happen again and then something else will be to blame and get banned and the next thing and the next thing.


Fair enough, so what are the GOP policies to address this?

Refund the Police/Back the Blue.
Discussions about Divorce law and also around how benefits are setup to incentivize single parenthood.
Culture is not so much about Government Policy per se - as I tend to see that culture is downstream from academia. Academia that at the moment is rotten to the core. So things like this (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2023/03/30/house-republicans-seek-ways-protect-campus-free-speech) are applicable.
Then for business de-regulation and streamlining of the Tax system.

As I said in a previous post - I'd love to see the Republicans be much more strident on the advocacy towards Families. And setting the Government structure up in such a way that it encourages two parent families.


Bait and switch - Why are we talking about Asians and Indians anyway? This is misdirection by you. They were not born into black communities, thus their situation is not comparable. Pfffft.

So, hear me out then: If Asians and Indians aren't affected, then maybe the problem isn't 'Whiteness' or White Supremacy, maybe the problem is something unique to the Black Community.

Now - I'll grant you there are historic factors, my contention is that their impact is much more limited than other factors. That is, if we fixed Crime, Fatherlessness and Culture - that would go longer and further than any dollar figure in 'Reparations' will ever go.



Are you talking about their work pertaining to CRT, or are you talking about other work they have done? I'm talking about CRT itself.

I don't draw that great of a distinction. Again, I view CRT as little more than an academic tool to undermine society to usher in the Glorious revolution, when you look at the other work they have done, that explanation makes much more sense.



I'm telling you what I saw. Why were white people queuing for white tellers when black tellers were available a few meters away? - remember I saw the phenomenon pretty much daily.

I'm not denying what you saw. I'm saying that to get to the charge of Racism, we need to know that each individual queuing was doing so because they didn't like Black People. There could be reasons, absent racism, that could explain it.

It could also be racism.


I'm really looking forward to this - make sure your switching races premis to see what it looks like is applied to actual CRT as published by the acknowledged authors of CRT.

There's a few works that I've got in mind - the biggest issue I'm going to face is to re-write them so they can't be copied and pasted to get the answer.


Interesting, where exactly are you getting this official definition of wokeness from - sources please?

Maybe you could forward it to this republican author who wrote a book on wokeness, and yet - can still not define it :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0hsg5mz18ew
Interviewer: "oh, you can take your time" :laugh:

Yeah, I remember that - that person is an Idiot and I've never cited them or referenced them in any of my writings.

My definition of Wokeness is based on my reading of what they write - the only reason there isn't an 'official' definition of Wokeness is so that those who practice it can lie about what it is.

But... because you asked - I'll provide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guYc12MHqH4 - you can watch the whole thing - but the relevant part is the first 1 minute and 30 seconds - including someone lying about what Wokeness is (when they know very well what it is) and then giving what I think is a pretty good definition: "At a political level, I want the pursuit of re-distributive goals (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism) whether that's power (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat), whether that's wealth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism), whether that's land in order to pursue aims of social justice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism) along class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletariat), gender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism), race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory)lines"


My trans child, and associates that I've met - politics is the further-est things from their mind. They literally never talk about it or consider it, but it is ok for them to be attacked constantly as though they are?
Fuck you.

My experience is very different - many of the people who I've met who self-identify as Queer, Gender non-binary, Gender non-confirming Trans etc. are radically political.

But here's my reply: If someone was using a group that you were a member of for political ends and it was making your life much worse - what would you do? I know I'd make certain that those people speaking in my name did not speak for me.


Cummon man, that's all you got? Surely even you can find just how fucking hilarious it is that we have Ronald Reagan dressed in drag, performing a drag show for the military and kids. GOLD!!!!

Not really - I've had to explain this to many Americans who have tried to tell me that the Pantomime Dame is the same as a modern Drag show - it's not. The key difference is the sexual element.

The Soldiers Drag show is a very old tradition and doesn't share it's roots with a modern Drag show. That is to say - it came about due to not many women being on the front lines.


Sigh........ we have covered this exact ground several times. You know I don't agree with transvestites in schools, even for basic story time yet alone grinding. It is the exception (that needs to stop) not the rule for trans people and the issues they are facing. The right are just gas lighting so badly that trans are starting to turn up murdered. I have valid worries for my child because of that.

Let me paint a scenario then - to perhaps highlight why the right is still attacking this issue - if in the first instance of something like that getting filmed (and it's not a single instance or from a single school) all of the Left went 'Holy Shit! That's not we intended, this is way too far, you are right - this IS innapropriate and we will do something about it!' - I suspect this wouldn't be the issue that it is.

That isn't the case though, we don't even get pleas of ignorance 'We didn't know this was happening' - no, from the Left we actually get apologia for this kind of behavior - people saying this is fine and not to be offended by it and in some cases, that we need more of it.

And so the pushback from the right wing continues and grows.

Let me dial this back a few years to something JBP said back in (I think) 2016 or so - 'We know when the Right goes too far - when they start making claims of Ethnic or racial superiority. Now, we know the Left can go too far, Obviously, but no one knows when exactly that is'

I put it to you that on this issue, the Left have gone too far, yet they are incapable of reversing themselves. Whether it's Pride (heh), Not wanting to 'lose' to the Conservatives, Genuine Conviction, or Ideological nefariousness, I don't know - but until they retreat - the Right are going to keep pushing. I don't want anyone to get Murdered in much the same way I don't want anyone to commit suicide, nor do I want anyone to undergo life-altering medical procedures because they were convinced at the time it was a good idea.

Somethings gotta give and even the most liberal of Person tends to get really conservative, really quickly if they think their child is threatened.



It might take a bit more than that to fix the issue.

Maybe, maybe not - as I said, there's 70 years of failed eco-disaster predictions, including a few that I remember in my lifetime. I think Life and Planet Earth is far more resilient than we give it credit for.

I also think we humans aren't quite as important as we think we are.



I would counter, there is already a bunch there, you trying to start a turf war?

Well, that would be one way to thin the herd...



Ahhh, the well worn hallmark of diplomacy - not. God forbid that any balanced calm dialog break out, where the votes in that eh?

And therein lies the heart of the problem, in my opinion, the current left in terms of the activists do not share a common goal with the current right. Without that shared common goal, we cannot have balanced dialog - we are diametrically opposed.

America was built on British Liberalism - which places the primacy of the individual front and centre. It is incompatible with any form of Collectivism.


Make it a Congressman

Okay, I'll admit - most of the people I was thinking of were Senators - but having a look through the list - I recognized one that I quite like (You have no idea how tempted I was to put Magic The Gathering here...)

Dan Crenshaw.
Oh and Morgan Luttrell.


My interpretation you debate me as if I'm some left wing zealot.

I know you aren't a left wing zealot, but on many issues - you accept the Left Wing framing of certain issues. Framing that I disagree with at the Philosophical level and at a pragmatic level.

[Berries]

My head hurts.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mEa5IIOhqs

[husaberg]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fufh64sWAAAvdDO.jpg
https://twitter.com/i/status/1199135926955466753

[pete376403]

Carlson has been booted by Fox. Too extreme even for them

[pritch]

The TV One News has managed to piss me off again. They are attributing Tucker Carlson's departure to the Dominion court case. That's not impossible but it's not likely. More realistically his departure is, similar to Roger Ailes and Bill O'Reilly, due to sexual harassment. Carlson had also slagged off the FOX management. His Executive Producer also got the axe and he wasn't obviously involved in slandering Dominion. He would have been involved in contributing to a toxic work environment though.

If you haven't already heard what is happening Google Abby Grossberg. She is suing FOX and one of the lawyers made a cryptic comment that raised the possibility of a criminal investigation.

Time will tell.

[F5 Dave]

My head hurts.

That's because the TDL logon is really a beta Russian AUI bot.

Artificial Un-Intelligence designed to argue continuously to try take down Capitalist pig dogs like you until your head spins, Does Not Compute. Does Not Compute. Thus killing off the West's sleeper agents with extreme weaponised stupidity.

Come the glorious day. Come the etc.

Anyway. Unsubscribe. Again.


Let's can this section and just have motorcycle threads?

[Grumph]

I suggest that overuse of the multi-quote function be made an offence on the site. 6 months suspension for using it more than twice per post.

If you can't say what you want in one simple paragraph, piss off.

[pritch]

This didn't age well. I'd even shout him some nails.

[sugilite]

Don the dem? :laugh:

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-hits-desantis-using-progressive-talking-points-liberal-sources-baffles-experts-bizarre

[Laava]

Haha, it’s like a tragic comedy!

[F5 Dave]

That's just Trump being a cunt, I mean being Trump.

Can't achieve anything of merit, but it sure is much easier to slag someone else off as a distraction and to give the air that maybe he is a glorious saviour (spoiler alert, he's not).


Ahh God, get me out of here. Unsubscribe.

[TheDemonLord]

Anyway. Unsubscribe. Again.


Ahh God, get me out of here. Unsubscribe.

Are you possessed of some form of compulsion that forces you to both click on this thread and to subscribe to it?

Just curious.

[pritch]

It's not very often I'd want to be a fly on the wall at a court case but...

In the E Jean Carrol rape/defamation case there is an interesting moment coming up. Lawyers for the plaintiff have presented a series of witnesses. Trump having decided he'd rather be in Scotland than at his court case, his lawyers were planning to call just one witness. That witness will not now be appearing.

So it seems we will arrive at a stage where the lawyers for the plaintiff announce to the court that they are finished and they rest their case. The judge will then ask Trump's lawyers to present their case and call their witnesses and they will announce that they have no witnesses. The jury will likely be sitting there with their mouths open.

This is a civil case the standard of proof is not 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. The jury's decision will be based on the preponderance of the evidence - the entirety of which comes from just one side.

Expect some circus plays by Team Trump.

[Grumph]

Ironic IMO, that lawyers for a known liar are going to have to stand up and say "she's lying" as the only defence they can produce.

[R650R]

Can't achieve anything of merit, but it sure is much easier to slag someone else off as a distraction and to give the air that maybe he is a glorious saviour (spoiler alert, he's not).

.

That sounds awfully familiar behaviour.....

Time for some comedy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kazCgOpzHKs&pp=ygUUVHdvIHJvbm5pZXMgcmVwZWF0ZXI%3D

[pritch]

Trump has lost yet another legal action. He was sueing the NY Times, several journalists, and his niece Mary Trump, for releasing his tax details in the Pulitzer Prize winning article. The judge has Ruled in favour of the NY Times and the journalists, and Trump has to pay their legal fees. Possibly around a million dollars. His own legal team may not be so fortunate.

The Mary Trump part of the action is still work in progress. Trump alleges she did not have the right to release the information because of a non-disclosure agreement.

[sugilite]

In more legal news attributed to the defamation trial, rapist trumps team is not even going to put up a defence now.
Before party hats break out, it could mean the rapist has found enough jurors to buy off.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/03/politics/trump-defense-e-jean-carroll-lawsuit/index.html

[Pursang]

News just keeps coming:

Proud Boys Enrique Tarrio, 3 others guilty of Jan. 6 seditious conspiracy
Prosecutors alleged defendants viewed themselves as Donald Trump’s army, intent on keeping him in power through violence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/05/04/proud-boys-verdict-jan6-seditious-conspiracy/?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most&carta-url=https%3A%2F%2Fs2.washingtonpost.com%2Fcar-ln-tr%2F39e98ba%2F6453d8cda61bab12f751179e%2F5e8982e0 ae7e8a5948c2ef42%2F10%2F72%2F6453d8cda61bab12f7511 79e

[Laava]

It is endlessly pathetic watching these deluded cunts living out their GI Joe fantasies.

[pritch]

Proud Boys Enrique Tarrio, 3 others guilty of Jan. 6 seditious conspiracy


That's interesting on a coupla counts. Tarrio was not present at the insurgency on Jan 6th but was found guilty. The charge was a conspiracy charge so he only had to take part in the planning. That raises the possibility of higher level Republican peratives such as Rudy Giuliani, Roger Stone, Steve Bannon, John Eastman, etc, also facing charges.

There was known to be a planning meeting at the Willard hotel prior to the events of the sixth. All present now have good reason to hire a lawyer. As do some Republican Congressional representatives.

[Pursang]

https://i.imgflip.com/1r0k86.jpg

[Pursang]

Washington Post....May 5, 2023 at 4:53 p.m. EDT

"At least eight of the 16 Georgia Republicans who convened in December 2020 to declare Donald Trump the winner of the presidential contest despite his loss in the state have accepted immunity deals from Atlanta-area prosecutors investigating alleged election interference, according to a lawyer for the electors."

[sugilite]

This is simply incredible.
In the Trump defamation/rape case, the lawyers interviewed trump while he was under oath.
Trump says that Jean Carrol is not his type, trump kindly takes time to also reveal the lawyer interviewing him is also not his type. THEN in the same interview when shown a photo, trump mistakes Jean Carroll for his ex wife Marla :facepalm: - so clearly he married a woman that is not his "type" :laugh:
I cannot think why trumps lawyers don't want him testifying.
Considering the jury saw this video yesterday, it really is not looking good for the rapist ex president. :wings:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjTtihu9yLQ&list=WL&index=1

Holy shit, if anything, this section of the interview is even worse!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnIYydNYmrk

[pritch]

Trump has filed a motion to move his NY fraud case and the 34 Indictments his business is facing to federal court. This is considered unlikely to succeed.

If the case did move to federal court, and if he was elected President, he could pardon himself. A president can't pardon people convicted in state courts, the Governor of the state can, but New York has a Democrat Governor.

[1/32 man]

He is a cunning prick.

I saw Jordan Peterson say that trumpk had a high IQ....in some respects he might do but as a decent human he scores below the median.

[pritch]

He is a cunning prick.

I saw Jordan Peterson say that trumpk had a high IQ....in some respects he might do but as a decent human he scores below the median.

Peterson sometimes says things just to be controversial. That's probably one such. "Fucking moron" is probably a more accurate assessment of Trump. It's true he does have a certain cunning though.

If he was truly intelligent he wouldn't have needed to threaten every educational institution he attended wth legal action if they released his grades.

[Laava]

If he was truly intelligent he would be smart enough to not brag about it.
Rat/weasel cunning is what he has.

[1/32 man]

Rat cunning it is...I hope they fence him in real soon.

[Pursang]

Trump is what Stupid people believe a Smart person is like.

[pritch]

Y'all may remember the video clip of Trump at the site of his new golf course saying that he was leaving Ireland early to travel back the US to 'confront' E Jean Carrol in court. All bullsht of course, he would have been fully aware that it was already too late to do that, but he may have been planning a motion for a mistrial on the grounds that he was prevented from testifying in his defence.

The judge heard about his speech Thursday US time, and gave Trump until 5PM Sunday to request an appearance. SURPRISE! The deadline has passed and reports indicate that no such application has been received.

[pritch]

This is something I came across as I was waking up this morning. Chris Whipple, the author of a book on Biden's presidency was being interviewed. He mentioned a New Zealander which made me prick my ears up. It transpires that in the final stages of Trump's presidency this kiwi played a major role. The link is an excerpt from the book that was printed in Vanity Fair. It's an interesting read.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/10/exclusive-inside-the-shtshow-that-was-the-trump-biden-transition

[Laava]

Thanks Pritch that was pretty interesting. What a toxic cunt that Trump is. How anybody can be so drawn in by him to think otherwise is nothing short of brainwashed. Koolaid anyone?

[pritch]

There was a time when some were amused by the charges against the Jan 6th insurrectionists and the light sentences handed down. Enrique Tarrio just got twenty years and that's no laughing matter. Onward and upward.

[Laava]

I'm sure Donald Trump will pardon him. If he ever remembers who he is!

[sugilite]

Ahhhhh, the sweet smell of accountability. Rapist Trump found GUILTY!

https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/us-canada/300873532/donald-trump-found-guilty-of-sexual-abuse-in-new-york-trial

[TheDemonLord]

Lots of celebrating...

Just consider this - at some point - whether it's in 2024 or beyond, the Republicans will be back in power - and the Dems have set the standards of dubious claims, civil prosecutions, claims of insurrection etc. etc.

So when the inevitable revenge comes (and it will be revenge) - I want to hear no complaining from the Democrat side about how unfair the Republicans are being.

My response will be 'This is the bed, nighty-night'

[1/32 man]

Come on Trum...er TDL....surely your gut feeling cannot be that trumpet is an innocent man and the witch hunt is for real?

[pritch]

Trump is telling his followers on what's left of Troth Senshall (his description) that he was not permitted to defend himself. He's lying. Then again, he lied in his deposition and the jury could see that. Didn't take the jury too long for their deliberations either, so it's not as if they had any serious doubts.

The amount awarded could be five million? We'll see... but first the appeal? Assuming he can find a lawyer to take the case and who won't mind not being paid.

[TheDemonLord]

Come on Trum...er TDL....surely your gut feeling cannot be that trumpet is an innocent man and the witch hunt is for real?

I've seen fairer show trials in the Soviet Union.

You want me to believe that this lady was sexually assaulted in 1996 by Trump has waited this long, not for Justice, but for a payout... And before a presidential cycle.

On the face of it, the claim is dubious at best - when all the other circumstances are added to it, it smells.

[pritch]

The judge in the case brought against Trump by DA Bragg in New York has issued a gag order against Trump.

The order is in three parts:
Trump will be permitted to access some evidence. He is not to publicly discuss or disseminate any evidence in public.
Other categories of evidence Trump is permitted to see only under supervision of his legal team, he is not permitted to retain it in his possession.
Trump is not permitted any access to any evidence obtained from cellphones.

Such orders are normally only issued against crime bosses, great company he's keeping. In this case it's designed primarily to prevent further stochastic terrorism, interfering with witnesses, and polluting of the jury pool.

[TheDemonLord]

The judge in the case brought against Trump by DA Bragg in New York has issued a gag order against Trump.

The order is in three parts:
Trump will be permitted to access some evidence. He is not to publicly discuss or disseminate any evidence in public.
Other categories of evidence Trump is permitted to see only under supervision of his legal team, he is not permitted to retain it in his possession.
Trump is not permitted any access to any evidence obtained from cellphones.

Such orders are normally only issued against crime bosses, great company he's keeping. In this case it's designed primarily to prevent further stochastic terrorism, interfering with witnesses, and polluting of the jury pool.

I mean, that's one view.

There's another view that goes something like:

"Should the general public see the evidence for themselves, they'd see how corrupt the NY Legal system is"

[Pursang]

I've seen fairer show trials in the Soviet Union.
You want me to believe that this lady was sexually assaulted in 1996 by Trump has waited this long, not for Justice, but for a payout... And before a presidential cycle.
On the face of it, the claim is dubious at best - when all the other circumstances are added to it, it smells.


Soviet Union?? WTF?? A jury of his Peers, selected with the assistance of his defense team, exposed to all the Evidence, provided by the prosecution AND the defense, UNANIMOUSLY agreed that Donald Trump is a Sexual Abuser.

If anything Smells, it's because your nose is so far up his arse!

[sugilite]

Lots of celebrating...

So when the inevitable revenge comes (and it will be revenge).
The celebrating has not begun to start in earnest yet. This is but an hors d'oeuvre, and this is set for at least a 6 course meal! Though I understand your keenness to get the party started ;)
Bring on the gop revengefest, the more pollies held accountable the better.


I've seen fairer show trials in the Soviet Union.

You want me to believe that this lady was sexually assaulted in 1996 by Trump has waited this long, not for Justice, but for a payout... And before a presidential cycle.

On the face of it, the claim is dubious at best - when all the other circumstances are added to it, it smells.
I'm asuming those other circumstances you mention are the facts of the voice recording of him boasting about forcing himself on woman, then the video of him saying she aint his type, then mistaking her in a photo for his wife, then he and his team not even mounting a defense?
You are right about Russia though, a much fairer trial result would of been a firing squad.


I mean, that's one view.

There's another view that goes something like:

"Should the general public see the evidence for themselves, they'd see how corrupt the NY Legal system is"
I love how you quasi frame trumps truth social posts as being "evidence" :laugh:

Trump has already corrupted faith in free and fair elections, it is no surprise the courts slap the duct tape over his big yap.

But really mate - Big Props to you! I now know first hand how just plain exhausting it is being a trump apologist! For the last month I've been across at fox news comments section being a trump apologist (doing my bit for democracy by doing my best to get votes for him in the primary) and yeah, it is bloody exhausting, so many code 9's to clean up!!!
But I'm becoming a bit of a pro now at defending him by spouting absolute twaddle just like you do here. The magas lap it up!

Yep, you can rest assured that over at Fox - @RealDemonLord is doing great work to protect America from another Trump presidency :innocent:

[R650R]

Soviet Union?? WTF?? A jury of his Peers, selected with the assistance of his defense team, exposed to all the Evidence, provided by the prosecution AND the defense, UNANIMOUSLY agreed that Donald Trump is a Sexual Abuser.

If anything Smells, it's because your nose is so far up his arse!

Well if you read the judge and lawyers comments it seems they operate different over there

“US judge Lewis A Kaplan told jurors they first needed to decide whether they thought there was more than a 50% chance that Trump raped Carroll. If they answered yes, they would then decide whether damages should be awarded.

If they answered no on the rape question, they could then decide if Trump subjected her to lesser forms of assault involving sexual contact without her consent or forcible touching to degrade her or gratify his sexual desire.

If they answered yes on either of those questions, they would decide if damages were appropriate. The jury ultimately found Trump liable on the lesser charge of sexual abuse.

On defamation claims stemming from a Trump’s dismissal of Carroll’s claims in October 2022, Kaplan said jurors needed to be guided by a higher legal standard – clear and convincing evidence.

He said they would have to agree it was “highly probable” that Trump’s statement was false and was made maliciously with deliberate intent to injure or out of hatred or ill will with reckless disregard for Carroll’s rights.

Carroll, 79, testified that she had a chance encounter with Trump at the Bergdorf Goodman store across the street from Trump Tower. She said it was a lighthearted interaction in which they teased each other about trying on a piece of lingerie before Trump became violent inside a dressing room.

Tacopina told jurors there was no reason to call Trump as a witness when Carroll couldn’t even recall when her encounter with Trump happened.

[pete376403]

And now federal prosecutors have charged George Santos - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/09/nyregion/george-santos-federal-charges.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20230509&instance_id=92173&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=96860793&segment_id=132532&te=1&user_id=8d2e2536c983806372541db8cf28bb3d

[Grumph]

Yep, you can rest assured that over at Fox - @RealDemonLord is doing great work to protect America from another Trump presidency :innocent:

You're doing god's work my son, keep it up.

[TheDemonLord]

Soviet Union?? WTF?? A jury of his Peers, selected with the assistance of his defense team, exposed to all the Evidence, provided by the prosecution AND the defense, UNANIMOUSLY agreed that Donald Trump is a Sexual Abuser.

If anything Smells, it's because your nose is so far up his arse!

Yeah... I mean - I watched the Derek Chauvin trial - and he was found guilty, when it was clear from the evidence that he didn't kill George Floyd (especially the alternate camera angles where you can see his knee isn't on his neck) - but we all know how that trial went.

[TheDemonLord]

The celebrating has not begun to start in earnest yet. This is but an hors d'oeuvre, and this is set for at least a 6 course meal! Though I understand your keenness to get the party started ;)
Bring on the gop revengefest, the more pollies held accountable the better.

I don't think it will go the way you want it to.



I'm asuming those other circumstances you mention are the facts of the voice recording of him boasting about forcing himself on woman, then the video of him saying she aint his type, then mistaking her in a photo for his wife, then he and his team not even mounting a defense?
You are right about Russia though, a much fairer trial result would of been a firing squad.

Groupies exist. I don't know how else to explain this. What is acceptable behavior towards a woman often changes when you have enough ones and zeroes in your bank balance.

Is it 'good' behavior? No. But there's a difference between forcing yourself onto someone and someone 'letting you grab 'em by the pussy'. Key word being 'let' - which implies a degree of consent.


I love how you quasi frame trumps truth social posts as being "evidence" :laugh:

I've said nothing of the sort. I'm saying that if the public saw the Evidence from the prosecution, they might realise how transparent the motivations of the case is. Hence why the judge had a Gag order placed on it.


Trump has already corrupted faith in free and fair elections, it is no surprise the courts slap the duct tape over his big yap.

What's the old phrase? If you tear out a mans tongue, then something about being afraid of what they say.



But really mate - Big Props to you! I now know first hand how just plain exhausting it is being a trump apologist! For the last month I've been across at fox news comments section being a trump apologist (doing my bit for democracy by doing my best to get votes for him in the primary) and yeah, it is bloody exhausting, so many code 9's to clean up!!!
But I'm becoming a bit of a pro now at defending him by spouting absolute twaddle just like you do here. The magas lap it up!

Yep, you can rest assured that over at Fox - @RealDemonLord is doing great work to protect America from another Trump presidency :innocent:

It would be a right shame if it backfired and you help to get him elected in 2024...

That would be levels of Karmic hilarity that even I don't think I could comprehend.

[pritch]

Well if you read the judge and lawyers comments it seems they operate different over there


As has been pointed out here more than once this case was a civil case not a criminal case. The standard of proof was not 'beyond doubt' but was "on the balance of probability."

It was basically a defamation case, not a criminal rape case. Trump could not be jailed. Damages could be awarded against him, so it was only his money and reputation at risk.
On second thoughts it was only his money.

[husaberg]

And now federal prosecutors have charged George Santos - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/09/nyregion/george-santos-federal-charges.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20230509&instance_id=92173&nl=from-the-times&regi_id=96860793&segment_id=132532&te=1&user_id=8d2e2536c983806372541db8cf28bb3d

i checked up what was recent about him the other day it turns out the republican's consider him to be a suitable representative of their party and its ideals/..

[pritch]

i checked up what was recent about him the other day it turns out the republican's consider him to be a suitable representative of their party and its ideals/..

It's not so much that as with their razor thin majority they don't want ot lose him.

[Laava]

i checked up what was recent about him the other day it turns out the republican's consider him to be a suitable representative of their party and its ideals/..
Hahaha, he sounds ideal for their party! Maybe TDL should go join up? He has the right mindset and boy does he love Trump! How hard can it be?
Pretend to be a Christian
Make noise about stopping Abortions
claim “witch-hunt “ every time someone pulls you up on your red neck bullshit or past stunts
Be ok with hypocrisy when you are rigging the election yet blaming it on the opposition
Be comfortable with acting out all your locker room talk
Get used to lying about everything to the point you no longer recognise the truth

[TheDemonLord]

Just a question for those who oppose Trump:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/15/trump-e-jean-carroll-defamation-lawsuit-dna

When you have both legal teams agreeing (eventually) on the terms of doing a DNA test - and the Judge refusing the evidence, does that sound like normal jurisprudence?

I mean if Trump is lying (as you are all oft to claim) then DNA would prove at the very least he was there, with the Jean and he came.
If Trump isn't lying then the DNA would prove it's not him.

It is an awfully curious set of reasons the Judge has given for not allowing it - and I quote:


He said a positive match of Trump’s DNA to that on the dress would prove only that there had been an encounter between Trump and Carroll on a day when she wore the dress, but would not prove or disprove that a rape occurred and might prove entirely inconclusive.

Considering one of the parties denies there was an encounter, it would seem rather pertinent. If the DNA is inconclusive, that would also seem rather pertinent.

And then you wonder why people like me call this a witch-hunt.

[neels]

Just a question for those who oppose Trump:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/15/trump-e-jean-carroll-defamation-lawsuit-dna

When you have both legal teams agreeing (eventually) on the terms of doing a DNA test - and the Judge refusing the evidence, does that sound like normal jurisprudence?

I mean if Trump is lying (as you are all oft to claim) then DNA would prove at the very least he was there, with the Jean and he came.
If Trump isn't lying then the DNA would prove it's not him.

It is an awfully curious set of reasons the Judge has given for not allowing it - and I quote:



Considering one of the parties denies there was an encounter, it would seem rather pertinent. If the DNA is inconclusive, that would also seem rather pertinent.

And then you wonder why people like me call this a witch-hunt.

Interesting take on the article, even allowing for confirmation bias.

Of course what is obvious is that despite being asked 3 years earlier, they waited until after the deadline for evidence to agree, thus hoping to further delay the trial and inevitably create grounds to challenge any findings or decision that results from it. It's a pretty obvious ploy that when you know you can't win, you go looking for other ways to prevent it getting to trial.

It's the judge's job to keep everyone involved working within the legal process, hence the ability to appeal to a higher court if one of the parties considers this is not the case, if judges allowed every last minute request to bugger about preparing more evidence nothing would ever get to court.



The judge, Lewis A Kaplan, rejected the 11th-hour offer by Trump’s legal team to provide a DNA sample to rebut claims Carroll first made publicly in a 2019 book.

Kaplan said lawyers for Trump and Carroll had more than three years to make DNA an issue in the case and both chose not to do so.

He said it would almost surely delay the trial scheduled to start on 25 April to reopen the DNA issue four months after the deadline passed to litigate concerns over trial evidence and weeks before trial.

Trump’s lawyers did not immediately comment. Carroll’s attorney, Roberta Kaplan, declined to comment.

Carroll’s lawyers have sought Trump’s DNA for three years to compare it with stains found on the dress Carroll wore the day she says Trump raped her in a department store dressing room in late 1995 or early 1996. Analysis of DNA on the dress concluded it did contain traces of an unknown man’s DNA.

[TheDemonLord]

Interesting take on the article, even allowing for confirmation bias.

Of course what is obvious is that despite being asked 3 years earlier, they waited until after the deadline for evidence to agree, thus hoping to further delay the trial and inevitably create grounds to challenge any findings or decision that results from it. It's a pretty obvious ploy that when you know you can't win, you go looking for other ways to prevent it getting to trial.

It's the judge's job to keep everyone involved working within the legal process, hence the ability to appeal to a higher court if one of the parties considers this is not the case, if judges allowed every last minute request to bugger about preparing more evidence nothing would ever get to court.

Sure - the Lawyers are lawyering - I get that. Gamesmanship on both sides.

It still doesn't address the fundamental question:

We have evidence that can prove that the encounter took place (not the crime, just the encounter) between the 2 individuals - and the Judge didn't allow it.

If you want me to believe this was a totally fair trial, you have to admit - that's a pretty big hill to overcome.

[husaberg]

It's not so much that as with their razor thin majority they don't want ot lose him.

Well i must admit there was an element of sarcasm in my post, but its obvious they are backing him by saying nothing despite the motives they will defend him as hes a party member ....:msn-wink:
He does sound like a great representative for the republican party though.

[sugilite]

I just cannot fathom why the judge in the stormy case placed a gag on Trump :laugh:

https://am22.mediaite.com/lc/cnt/uploads/2023/03/Trump-bat.jpg

[Laava]

It's funny how someone can be so full of themselves that anything that goes against them, is against them personally. Trump is being held accountable for his actions in the same way that anyone else should. Even tho it is taking a lot longer for that action to happen. Fuck him, it's not anti Trump, it's anti arsehole!

[husaberg]

"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?"

[pritch]

I just cannot fathom why the judge in the stormy case placed a gag on Trump :laugh:


Another judge has gagged him. Trump is now to attend a lecture by the judge on what he can't do or say. Of course it remains to be seen what happens when he violates the judges requirements. Anybody else would be locked up. I can't see them locking up him - and his security detail.

Also, during his CNN clown show he basically confessed to the charges he's facing re the documents. And some people think he's smart? His lawyers are crap but he makes life difficult for them. They're saying one thing and he is busy admitting guilt.


Re Santos. I'd thought if the going got too tough he might head back to Brazil. The police there were investigating him for cheque fraud though. Apparently he has pled guilty to make that problem go away.

[Laava]

He's a piece of work isn't he?
Oh. Shit, I meant shit!

[Pursang]

He's a piece of work isn't he?
Oh. Shit, I meant shit!

Trump? and/or the Trump 'Mini-Me' Santos?

[pritch]

James Comer is alleged to bave physically and mentally abused his girl friend while at college. These days he’s in Congress leading the charge to impeach Joe Biden. Recently he has been on any TV channel that would have him announcing that he had a whistle blower prepared to dish up the dirt on the Biden family.

This morning I see that his witness has vanished and is nowhere to be found. Colour me surprised.

[sugilite]

More fake GOP
First it was fake electors, now it is fake whistle blowers :laugh:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jim-jordans-fbi-whistleblowers-paid-by-trump-ally-spread-conspiracies-report-says

[pritch]

During the now infamous CNN "town hall" Trump repeated the statements he had made about E Jean Caroll for which he had been found liable and ordered to pay five million just one day previously. Ms Carroll has filed a new claim which raises the prospect of punitive damages. Because he is treating a five million finding against him in such cavalier fashion, the next amount can be expected to be larger. Possibly much larger.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/22/e-jean-carroll-donald-trump-cnn-town-hall-damages

Incidentally one of Trump's Political Action Committees has been paying his legal fees. Some ten million dollars this year? The spending of PACs is quite strictly controlled and depending on the actual details this spending could be unlawful.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/trump-has-already-spent-millions-from-donors-to-cover-legal-fees/

[pritch]

In this morning's news E Jean Carroll is seeking an additional ten million dollars plus plus. This for what Trump said in CNN's infamous "town hall." Trump, never particularly quick on the uptake, has apparently repeated the remarks again on Truth Social overnight our time.

The action against Trump is not a new action, it's in the nature of an addition. They don't have to prove anything, he has already been found liable.

This is almost unprecedented, people found liable of defamation and having had to pay out millions, usually catch on and realise they should shut up. Not Trump.

[Laava]

Hahahahahahahahaha!

[Grumph]

IMO he doesn't care as his legal fees - including I believe fines - are being paid by his PAC. In other words, his supporters money.

Any judgement against him seems to produce another round of donations. Stupid Americans eh.

Loss of personal freedom or liberty would seem to be the only thing that will stop his mouth. Bring it on.

[F5 Dave]

[TDL submits PayPal transaction]

[TheDemonLord]

[TDL submits PayPal transaction]

Never paid a cent to any politician.

[pritch]

Karen demands to see the manager.

Trump apparently posted a copy of this letter on 'Troth Sensal'. He didn't bother to remove the lawyer's contact details which may lead to some merriment in the office. The letter is entirely unprofessional. Even allowing for Trump's previous conduct meaning no serious lawyer wants to have any dealings with him, the letter is a fail.
Conjecture is that the letter was dictated by Trump himself.

It's reported that the letter was consigned to File 13 on arrival at the Attorney General's office.

[sugilite]

Not before passing it around the office giving everyone a laugh on how trump is shitting himself on this one :laugh:

[husaberg]

Karen demands to see the manager.

Trump apparently posted a copy of this letter on 'Troth Sensal'. He didn't bother to remove the lawyer's contact details which may lead to some merriment in the office. The letter is entirely unprofessional. Even allowing for Trump's previous conduct meaning no serious lawyer wants to have any dealings with him, the letter is a fail.
Conjecture is that the letter was dictated by Trump himself.

It's reported that the letter was consigned to File 13 on arrival at the Attorney General's office.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbG4P-AYzzA

https://youtu.be/d40pS-e5Z9g?t=16

[pritch]

Karen update.

In the US it is common for defence lawyers to meet with the prosecution lawyers shortly before court proceedings are initiated. Some journalists are commenting that the letter from Trump lawyers to the Attorney General is therefore indicative of imminent charges. That'd be nice but nah. Nobody with a law degree wrote that letter, they probably just corrected the spelling and removed the inappropriate capital letters before retyping it and handing it to the courier.

The letter is not addressed to the prosecuting lawyers, or even to the Special Counsel heading the investigation. It's addressed to the Attorney General, the head of the US Justice Department. This is not business as usual. It's more like monkey business.

[Grumph]

It's also cc'd to members of Congress so as one report said, they should be receiving it soon.

It's very plainly a "help me please GOP members" Last, maybe desperate, attempt to make it all go away.

Shit's gettin' real, boy.

[pritch]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/25/oath-keepers-far-right-stewart-rhodes-sentence

[sugilite]

The newly announced meatball presidential bid (which was badly botched by meatballs very poor decision to team up with musks shitter) has meatballs team scheming victory over trump. They concede that trump got a sympathy bump from trumps arrest. Their disillusionment is they think that will wear off. The reality is trump has a shit ton of sympathy bumps coming in the form of many upcoming indictments :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

"They made the case that Trump’s current polling lead was being inflated by sympathy from Republican voters over his indictment in New York over a case involving hush money payments to a pornstar and would diminish over time. "

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/25/desantis-aides-to-donors-trumps-lead-is-a-polling-sugar-high-00098852

Another problem for meatball, is his draconian policies are so unpopular in his own state that a dem won the mayoralty in a very populous Jacksonville.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/elections/democrat-donna-deegan-flips-jacksonville-mayors-office-major-upset-rcna84791

And to add to the fun, trump will pull meatballs doomed stillborn presidential bid out if the womb and smash it against the nearest pole. Good times ahead folks, Good times ahead :corn:

[pritch]

DeSantis' entry into the Presidential race has attracted much comment. One gem, from Kari Lake, referenced DeSantis' losing fight with Disney.
"If he can't beat Donald Duck how can he beat Donald Trump?"

[Grumph]

Donald Duck has better lawyers.

[husaberg]

DeSantis' entry into the Presidential race has attracted much comment. One gem, from Kari Lake, referenced DeSantis' losing fight with Disney.
"If he can't beat Donald Duck how can he beat Donald Trump?"


Donald Duck has better lawyers.

and much less legal issues....
Donald duck also never had a small loan of a hundred million dollars....

[Grumph]

and much less legal issues....
Donald duck also never had a small loan of a hundred million dollars....


You'd need to confirm that with Unca Scrooge McDuck. As I remember it, he could have afforded it.

[husaberg]

You'd need to confirm that with Unca Scrooge McDuck. As I remember it, he could have afforded it.
Scrooge had so much money as he never gave it out to con artists
But anyway Trumps more looney Tunes that Disney channel......

[Al Bundy 4eva!]

Ahhh, California, a Democrats, Labour party's socialist paradise!


https://youtu.be/mrMunV4y39I

[sugilite]

Please stay on topic al, this is the trump thread. By all means start a californiasucks thread if you wish.

Oh dear, schedule another maga trump bump, turns out trump showed outsiders classified documents at maralardo.
ever deeper into the shit does he go.
The fun part is now meatball has to Grimace alongside us as every one of trumps bone headed moves is rewarded with ever more mad maga love :killingme:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/26/trump-classified-documents-workers-moved-boxes

[pritch]

Another of Trump's lawyers is in difficulties. I thought there were indications that Lin Wood was a screw loose but it seems the Georgia State Bar think so too. They want an investigation into his mental health, he has appealed that - and lost. He might be able to do something about that though, apparently he has previously claimed to be Jesus. A very angry Jesus. He says the Georgia State Bar will burn in Hell.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/attorney-lin-wood-loses-appeal-over-state-bars-mental-health-probe-2022-05-31/

[pritch]

There is much speculation about what Special Counsel Jack Smith has been up to and if he is nearing the stage of charging Trump. Overnight our time Trump's legal team were seen entering the Justice Department and then leaving not too long after. A very short time later the all caps message below appeared.

[Laava]

Was that on trumpspeshul or has he reverted to twitter as no one else is actually on trumspeshul?






Who am I kidding, I don't fucking care!…..

[pritch]

Interesting comment by a US lawyer. Asked about the copious notes taken by several of Trump's lawyers, all of which are now in the possession of the Justice Department. He said that normally lawyers do not document everything in great detail, but if they suspect that a client may lie about the case in future they will write down everything to cover their arse.

Probably wise of them considering the history of their client.

[husaberg]

There is much speculation about what Special Counsel Jack Smith has been up to and if he is nearing the stage of charging Trump. Overnight our time Trump's legal team were seen entering the Justice Department and then leaving not too long after. A very short time later the all caps message below appeared.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWeBhHpX0AARIDL.jpghttps://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-aac080f2714f1f2e71274326edbabf74-lq

https://images-us.bookshop.org/ingram/9781087222363.jpg?height=500&v=v2https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AlarmedShadyArizonaalligatorlizard-max-1mb.gif

[sugilite]

Oh, so only now the spineless shit weasel cum stain wants to talk about Trump wanting to burn the constitution when it suits him.
Enjoy your single figure polling ya fuck knuckle.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4038723-pence-argues-jan-6-is-disqualifying-for-trump-as-he-launches-campaign/

[pritch]

Interesting news from CNN: CEO Chris Licht has been fired. The new owner of CNN David Zaslav, had appointed Licht to take CNN to the right in an attempt to take viewers from FOX. That didn't work, it just pissed off their existing viewers who moved to MSNBC.

There was the farcial Trump "town hall" which alientated most of the CNN staff and a large chunk of the population. Apart from the town hall viewer numbers have continued to slide. CNN now ranks outside the top 3 cable channels.

Be interesting to see who replaces Licht and if there's a change in the current failed policy.

[pritch]

So how're things going over at Troth Senshul? Not too good it seems.

Tomorrow is rumoured to be the big day. Multiple charges including espionage. Experienced prosecutors are saying there will have to be jail time. That would be radical though and I can't get excited about Trump getting locked up. Anybody else would be locked up already but...

Anyhoo we've been here before and I'm not putting the Veuve Clicq on ice just yet.

[Laava]

I didn't know viscous rinos could have jobs? Or dogs for that matter…

[neels]

I didn't know viscous rinos could have jobs? Or dogs for that matter…
What is the viscosity of the average rino?
What for that matter is a rino?
Does it hurt to have someone through you, and is it worse if this occurs under a bus?
What does fruit bread have to do with the election?

So many questions.....

[Laava]

The sad cunt is going be banging the same stolen election drum for the rest of his pathetic life. No doubt after the next stollen election, he will fade into the background…he could run for russian president! He has the right sort of personality to run a corrupt country!

[husaberg]

Oh, so only now the spineless shit weasel cum stain wants to talk about Trump wanting to burn the constitution when it suits him.
Enjoy your single figure polling ya fuck knuckle.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4038723-pence-argues-jan-6-is-disqualifying-for-trump-as-he-launches-campaign/

Imagine Pence vs Biden, dull and duller.
how often do vice presidents become presidents
Bush 1 Biden?

he googles

Four sitting vice presidents have been elected president: John Adams in 1796,
Thomas Jefferson in 1800,
Martin Van Buren in 1836
George H. W. Bush in 1988.
Likewise, two former vice presidents have won the presidency, Richard Nixon in 1968 and Joe Biden in 2020.
Oh shit what a class act these lot are, other than Jefferson.

[pete376403]

Imagine Pence vs Biden, dull and duller.
how often do vice presidents become presidents
Bush 1 Biden?

he googles

Oh shit what a class act these lot are, other than Jefferson.


Johnson after JFK assasination
Ford after Nixon resigned

[husaberg]

Johnson after JFK assasination
Ford after Nixon resigned

That's not really adding a lot of talent to the list......i left them out as they were not elected, but shit i always thought in politics they choose a deputy or a vice pres as they are not a threat to them as a leader.

[pritch]

Trump has announced on Troth Senshal that he has been summoned to appear at the Miami Courthouse at 3.00PM Tuesday Florida time. I have a bottle of Veuve Clicq that will go in the fridge to be ready.

It has been reported that he will be charged with espionage and obstruction among other things but the actual clauses used don't refer to classified documents. Apparently the charge relates to passing military information to unauthorised persons. So we shouldn't have to read a lot of crap about how he can declassify documents with his mind ninja style.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/08/politics/trump-indictment-truth-social-classified-documents/index.html


Update: There is some concern that should Trump be reelected president he would pardon himself. There is also concern that is found guilty he could even run from prison and normally there's nothing preventing that. Some sections of the espionage act though contain the stipulation that anybody found guilty is banned from running for any public office. I think Jack Smith will have noticed that.

[Pursang]

https://thewareaglereader.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/sevenfingers.jpg

[F5 Dave]

Fuk what a muppet! Only in America could such a charliton rise to power.

Sadly the disease has spread and even hard of thinking losers in this country hold a candle for him.

Jezzuz fuk krist. If there was a god, which clearly there isn't or he would have been struck down years ago, decades ago, he would get locked up.

Next to Clinton. Heck let's not take sides.

[husaberg]

https://i.imgflip.com/3y0fww.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FiyH8i0WYAI1dEF.jpghttps://i.imgflip.com/1oreun.jpg

[neels]

Fuk what a muppet! Only in America could such a charliton rise to power.
Only in america? There are clearly enough just as stupid voting here....

Like Trump he was sold as a great business man, admittedly he was good at making rich people (and himself) even richer.

Then people believed the 'rock star economy' based on immigration, created billions of debt to his former employers to fund tax cuts, and sold off state assets to leave the country with the current housing crisis.

353295

Clearly all worthy of a knighthood.

[R650R]

Only in america? There are clearly enough just as stupid voting here....

Like Trump he was sold as a great business man, admittedly he was good at making rich people (and himself) even richer.

Then people believed the 'rock star economy' based on immigration, created billions of debt to his former employers to fund tax cuts, and sold off state assets to leave the country with the current housing crisis.

353295

Clearly all worthy of a knighthood.

How many state houses did Key sell??? Also since then a lot of people came home from overseas due to covid etc

Labour fuelled the current crisis by putting people in motels. Now thereÂ’s a game where if you gets yourself there your a priority to get a state house. In the past a lot of those people would probably have found a spare room or shed at family or friends houses to live in.
This govt has had nearly six years during which they could have easily built high density housing projects.
They know how to build big buildings as they just built a three story office monstrosity in central napier for WONZ/HNZ hq. They just donÂ’t know how to tell people hey this is how youÂ’re going to live. ItÂ’s a special kind of irony building that thing right next to where a lot of homeless people sleep.
The days of the 1/4 acre dream are over. We need to stop thinking about single or even two story homes for the poor, we need apartment blocks and other tools can be used to get around the stigma/issues they have.
Then thereÂ’s all the burdens on landlords to provide x level of building. Right now my home could be rented to other people and I could flat with friends whose houses are not fully occupied.
But I need to spend about 5K to insulate it on top of the risks of damage if I get bad tenants.
I could even subdivide, demolish my house, build a two story town house for me and two small pensioner flats alongside.
But all the nanny state regulation makes that a too costly/risky venture. The work you have to do now for site foundations is ridiculous.

[Pursang]

https://media.istockphoto.com/id/1255392908/vector/happy-37th-birthday-gold-foil-balloon-greeting-background.jpg?s=612x612&w=0&k=20&c=IHCsUWUCioNBJ2KhfI5Bazd_rI1NzbNRgXyGpzIA0kQ=

[pritch]

The days of the 1/4 acre dream are over. We need to stop thinking about single or even two story homes for the poor, we need apartment blocks and other tools can be used to get around the stigma/issues they have.


The situation in Britain and in France suggests otherwise. All the sections hereabout were quarter acre but many are now being subdivided and new houses added. My house was one of the first in the area, the suburb is named after this house, although that had nought to do with me. It's unlikely the house will survive me by much. When it's sold it'll almost certainly be knocked down and replaced by multiple units of some kind.

[pritch]

Meanwhile back in the USA...

Trump's lawyers have slung their hook. Apparently this is normal, the team he had until now were employed to keep him from being indicted. Having been indicted he now needs experienced Florida trial lawyers. He already has one, expect more.

One of the judges is Aileen Cannon. Remember her? She's the Trump appointed judge who interfered in the case in the early stages until the DoJ successfully appealed her rulings. TV talking head lawyers doubt she can repeat that performance, if she tries she would just lose on appeal again. She would also lose what's left of her credibility. We'll see. She should recuse herself, if she doesn't do that the DoJ will likely move to have her removed. There is precedent that suggests the DoJ should be successful.

For anyone interested, the indictment. It's a long read. https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/09/politics/read-trump-indictment-document/index.html

[husaberg]

How many state houses did Key sell??? Also since then a lot of people came home from overseas due to covid etc

Labour fuelled the current crisis by putting people in motels. Now thereÂ’s a game where if you gets yourself there your a priority to get a state house.

You just reversed history congratulations.....What an epic fail even by your standards.
The state house inventory was 68000 when key came in 63000 when he finished he also have at least 1000 more houses for sale including 100's in CHCH
The key Govt was who started using motels as emergency housing whilst selling off the state houses.
The preferred supplier was a very large National party donor who owned a national chain in need of refurbishment.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/79067679/numerous-donations-by-hotel-founder-to-national-party-but-no-conflict
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/103655890/the-national-party-was-donated-three-times-more-money-than-labour-last-year--but-labour-won
https://www.nbr.co.nz/lani-hagaman-heartland-bank-among-latest-big-note-political-donors/

[Hoonicorn]

You just reversed history congratulations.....
the state house inventory was 68000 when key came in 63000 when he finished he also have at least 1000 more houses for sale including 100's in CHCH
the key Govt was who started using motels as emergency housing whilst selling off the state houses.
The preferred supplier was a very large National party donor who own a national chain in need of refurbishment.

Wasn't that because National was moving people into private housing, giving them an accomodation supplement, because it was considered cheaper for tax payers to subsidise housing than own and maintain housing directly? The accomodation problem was then due to the lack of available housing in NZ as a whole (public and private). So National launched a "kiwi build" scheme to build more housing. Labour then claimed that National wasn't building enough houses under than scheme and campaigned on building more houses than National. They failed to build any more than National, sacked the housing minister and continue to rent hotels, motels and apartment buildings to cover the shortfall. And now we consider tiny hotel rooms and apartments as "housing" for low income families when we used to count state houses.

I'd bet that at least some of these hotels/motels/shoebox apartments used for emergency accomodation are owned by people who have donated to a political party, so not sure why you're playing that card like a winning hand?

[pritch]

He may not be planning on going quietly?

[sugilite]

For those interested in just how FUCKED Trump is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMcmDc2PYrs

[Grumph]

The trouble now is that the nore fucked Trump is - and the stronger the case against him - the more likely the right wing nutcases are to start shooting.

And the GOP won't do anything to stop that.

Looks very much like you CAN fool some of the people all of the time.

[Pursang]

The trouble now is that the nore fucked Trump is - and the stronger the case against him - the more likely the right wing nutcases are to start shooting.

And the GOP won't do anything to stop that.

Looks very much like you CAN fool some of the people all of the time.

I think he needs to be very afraid of just one right wing nutcase who wakes up (wokes?) and realises he has been lied to and made a total mug of.
Perhaps someone with a military or intelligence service background who has been put at risk or lost buddies due to an information leak.
Perhaps someone with a close relative serving quietly somewhere overseas.
Perhaps one who's allegiance to the actual security of the USA exceeds his political prejudices and preferences.

We can but hope!

[pritch]

I think he needs to be very afraid of just one right wing nutcase who wakes up (wokes?) and realises he has been lied to and made a total mug of.
Perhaps someone with a military or intelligence service background who has been put at risk or lost buddies due to an information leak.
Perhaps someone with a close relative serving quietly somewhere overseas.
Perhaps one who's allegiance to the actual security of the USA exceeds his political prejudices and preferences.

We can but hope!



There have been several instances of people committing crimes in the hope of starting a race war or a new civil war. That'd do it.

Meanwhile back at Mar a Lago...
Nevermind the stolen documents. That shower curtain being in the same room as that chandelier is a crime.

[Grumph]

Gold plated taps on the vanity......

[husaberg]

Gold plated taps on the vanity......

i would wager bright nickel.. its what a 5 dollar Slovakian hooker would think was ornate lavish and luxurious..
Not that trump could use these words himself.

[TheDemonLord]

Well, this undoes the precedent set for a certain presidential candidate.

Can't wait for Trump's legal team to point to the precedent set in the Comey report.

Either they have to abide by that precedent and drop all charges, or they prove that the whole FBI is now just an extension of the Democrat party.

Although it the former would be the better outcome, the latter will certainly be more interesting.

[neels]

Well, this undoes the precedent set for a certain presidential candidate.

Can't wait for Trump's legal team to point to the precedent set in the Comey report.

Either they have to abide by that precedent and drop all charges, or they prove that the whole FBI is now just an extension of the Democrat party.

Although it the former would be the better outcome, the latter will certainly be more interesting.
That reads more like a high school algebra question than a forum post.

I can't figure it out, what time does the train arrive in Invercargill?

[husaberg]

That reads more like a high school algebra question than a forum post.

I can't figure it out, what time does the train arrive in Invercargill?

I am not sure whataboutism is a real form of legal defence, but as that poster previously claimed to know more than federal and supreme court judges and the FBI. I am sure he will be called upon to be an trump expert witless.


Whataboutism refers to the practice of deflecting criticism by pointing to the misdeeds of others. Oxford Dictionaries defines it as “the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counter-accusation or raising a different issue.”

History tells us that this method of counteracting arguments was first manifested in the Cold War (Soviet Union) — a tool for battling criticism with the cynicism, of sorts. Later on, it was popularised again by the beloved Donald Trump and lately has been spreading like the ‘potentially’ airborne COVID-19.

[R650R]

This thread is nearly 350 pages deep and three months shy of three years old.

Countless allegation of unnamed sources, charges to be laid, charges laid and nothing of real substance (in regard to the seriousness of claims) has actually materialised into a courtroom verdict and sentence…

[TheDemonLord]

I am not sure whataboutism is a real form of legal defence, but as that poster previously claimed to know more than federal and supreme court judges and the FBI. I am sure he will be called upon to be an trump expert witless.

You do know that precedent is a thing in Law.

Right?

So, it is actually extremely valid, in Law, to say 'But what about this case that had many similar aspects to this and had X result?'

Guess I really do know more than....

[TheDemonLord]

That reads more like a high school algebra question than a forum post.

I can't figure it out, what time does the train arrive in Invercargill?

It's a trick question.

There are no trains arriving in Invercargill.

[pritch]

This thread is nearly 350 pages deep and three months shy of three years old.

Countless allegation of unnamed sources, charges to be laid, charges laid and nothing of real substance (in regard to the seriousness of claims) has actually materialised into a courtroom verdict and sentence…

True.

The wheels of justice turn slow.

The Trump Organisation was already facing multiple charges. The Chief Financial Officer was jailed.

Trump was sued by E Jean Caroll for sexual abuse and defamation, found liable and ordered to pay five million. The next day he repeated the defamation on TV and is now facing another ten million. (Nobody said he was quick on the uptake.)

On Wednesday Trump is to be charged with 37 (or 38?) charges any one of which would have anybody else in prison already.

A Georgia DA has asked all law enforcement agencies to cancel all leave for dates in late July or early August and has requested the Court schedule be cleared for the same dates. It is believed that this is in relation to Trump being charged with attempted election fraud. "I just need 11,780 votes." Although political interference on behalf of Trump is still possible in this instance.

There is still the matter of his attempted coup. The sentences dished out in related cases have been getting longer. Eighteen years the longest to date I believe. So far no politicians have been charged but there is still a grand jury in Washington DC that we haven't heard from yet. There may also be ongoing investigations that have not been made public.

[R650R]

True.

The wheels of justice turn slow.

The Trump Organisation was already facing multiple charges. The Chief Financial Officer was jailed.

Trump was sued by E Jean Caroll for sexual abuse and defamation, found liable and ordered to pay five million. The next day he repeated the defamation on TV and is now facing another ten million. (Nobody said he was quick on the uptake.)

On Wednesday Trump is to be charged with 37 (or 38?) charges any one of which would have anybody else in prison already.

A Georgia DA has asked all law enforcement agencies to cancel all leave for dates in late July or early August and has requested the Court schedule be cleared for the same dates. It is believed that this is in relation to Trump being charged with attempted election fraud. "I just need 11,780 votes." Although political interference on behalf of Trump is still possible in this instance.

There is still the matter of his attempted coup. The sentences dished out in related cases have been getting longer. Eighteen years the longest to date I believe. So far no politicians have been charged but there is still a grand jury in Washington DC that we haven't heard from yet. There may also be ongoing investigations that have not been made public.

The coup thing will be hard to prove. Some dictionary definitions;

an unexpectedly successful achievement

a sudden illegal, often violent, taking of government power, especially by part of an army

The cruder method of fomenting military coups had been replaced by financing and training civilian opponents, but the aim was still the same.

a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group

a brilliant, sudden, and usually highly successful stroke or act

So back in the January 6 circus, there was nothing successful, there was no “army”, and no govt was overthrown. Ultimately a bunch of over excited leaderless rabble caused some damage and distress the same way the lefty antifa group does.

If trump is guilty of a coup then by same logic you have to jail Green Party members or Greta thunberg for any disruptive action that extinction rebellion, just stop oil or any of the other kooky green groups.

Is any leader of black community responsible for the “ mostly peaceful” riots and arson during BLM protests??

[husaberg]

True.

The wheels of justice turn slow.

The Trump Organisation was already facing multiple charges. The Chief Financial Officer was jailed.

Trump was sued by E Jean Caroll for sexual abuse and defamation, found liable and ordered to pay five million. The next day he repeated the defamation on TV and is now facing another ten million. (Nobody said he was quick on the uptake.)

On Wednesday Trump is to be charged with 37 (or 38?) charges any one of which would have anybody else in prison already.

A Georgia DA has asked all law enforcement agencies to cancel all leave for dates in late July or early August and has requested the Court schedule be cleared for the same dates. It is believed that this is in relation to Trump being charged with attempted election fraud. "I just need 11,780 votes." Although political interference on behalf of Trump is still possible in this instance.

There is still the matter of his attempted coup. The sentences dished out in related cases have been getting longer. Eighteen years the longest to date I believe. So far no politicians have been charged but there is still a grand jury in Washington DC that we haven't heard from yet. There may also be ongoing investigations that have not been made public.
the wheels turns especially slowly when the defendant is rich and connected also when they fire their legal council numerous times and then stall at every opportunity.

[pritch]

The coup thing will be hard to prove. Some dictionary definitions;


You could consult the dictionary, not a bad thing, but you have to look up the correct term. Coup is short for Coup d'etat. (Excuse the lack of the accent thingie over the e.)

Or you could see what the experts have to say. The people who deal with such things say it was a coup. Specifically a type described as a "self coup."
That's when somone who attains power legally subsequently tries to retain power illegaly. Which sums up Jan 6th and Trump's other failed plans nicely.

There was also a plan to declare martial law. Although it seems neither Trump nor any of his shithead co conspirators could even spell that.

There was the attempt to kidnap the Vice President - foiled when he smelled a rat and refused to get in the car.

There were the fake electors.

There were the "11,780 votes".

There is a ton of stuff to work through and a number of sitting politicians were involved. All of whom should be banned from holding any future public office but...

[Berries]

This thread is nearly 350 pages deep and three months shy of three years old.

Countless allegation of unnamed sources, charges to be laid, charges laid and nothing of real substance (in regard to the seriousness of claims) has actually materialised into a courtroom verdict and sentence…
I was right though.

[Pursang]

The coup thing will be hard to prove. Some dictionary definitions;

an unexpectedly successful achievement Desired Outcome - but...FAILED

a sudden illegal, often violent, taking of government power, especially by part of an army SUCCESS Temporary - Took the Govt's power to do it's constitutional duties, but...Ultimately FAILED

The cruder method of fomenting military coups had been replaced by financing and training civilian opponents, but the aim was still the same.Like Proud Boys / Oath keepers FAILED & CONVICTED

a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group Attempted - but...FAILED

a brilliant, sudden, and usually highly successful stroke or act FAILED....FAILED...FAILED

So back in the January 6 circus, there was nothing successful, there was no “army” but trained civilian opponents and no govt was overthrown.

"there was nothing successful", TRUE So.... the phrase you need to research is ATTEMPTED COUP - FAILURE is actually a prerequisite for this one! And it is most definitely a CRIME

Another worthwhile lookup is CONSPIRACY (Tip! use a legal dictionary) Conspiracy to Attempt a Coup is also a CRIME


.................................................

[sugilite]

This whole docs case is so simple.
Pence - "Opps I found documents I should not still have, here FBI come and get them please." Consequent investigation by the authorities cleared pence. (he is still a total fuckknuckle)
Biden"Opps I found documents I should not still have, here FBI come and get them please." Consequent investigation by the authorities have not been copmpleted. I'm more than happy for Biden to face charges if misdeeds are found.
Trump - "Yes, I have documents, I'm not going to return them despite being requested multiple times to do so. Think I'll actively hide some and show others to people in order to be a show off as well." As ever, trump is the author of his own demise.

The whartabouters are laughable.

I'm still looking for the Georgia charges the most.

[pritch]

There's a coupla things about Biden and Pence having classified docs at home. Cabinet members have a huge amount of reading to do so it seems they routinely take paperwork home that would get almost anybody else fired or imprisoned.

The second thing is that when they finally leave office, they don't get down on their hands and knees and pack the boxes personally. Staff do that for them.

Neither instance comes close to Trump removing a truck load of documents to which he was not entitled and he knew it.

Then there was Reality Winner. She was an intelligence analyst who released one document confirming Russian interference in the 2016 election. She was locked up while the case was investigated and then sentenced to five years.

[husaberg]

There's a coupla things about Biden and Pence having classified docs at home. Cabinet members have a huge amount of reading to do so it seems they routinely take paperwork home that would get almost anybody else fired or imprisoned.

The second thing is that when they finally leave office, they don't get down on their hands and knees and pack the boxes personally. Staff do that for them.

Neither instance comes close to Trump removing a truck load of documents to which he was not entitled and he knew it.

Then there was Reality Winner. She was an intelligence analyst who released one document confirming Russian interference in the 2016 election. She was locked up while the case was investigated and then sentenced to five years.

Unlike our resident whataboutism trump expert "apologists" who claims to know more than anyone else in their specialist fields yet clearly has no grounding for their dunning krugerism.
Back years ago there were calls to send Hilary to jail yet i bet none of the trumpers are suggested to do the same with trump now will they, for they will just be using their modified form of whataboutism saying she was investigated but not charged so trump cant be charged or found guilty ......

here is real opinion from someone actually qualified to make comments. who weighed up the differences. Who is a proper expert.

Oona A. Hathaway is a professor of law and political science at Yale University and former special counsel to the general counsel at the U.S. Department of Defense.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/11/opinion/donald-trump-and-reality-winner-espionage-act.html
https://law.yale.edu/oona-hathaway
The key difference between the legal situations of Mr. Biden and Mr. Pence and that of Mr. Trump is not politics. Rather, the difference lies in what they did once they discovered the classified materials: Mr. Biden and Mr. Pence immediately notified the federal government, turned over the documents, and fully consented to thorough F.B.I. searches of their personal offices and residences. They did not willfully retain documents that they knew they had no legal right to keep, and they certainly did not undertake elaborate schemes to mislead their own lawyers or the government in order to conceal and hold the documents. The special counsel working on Mr. Biden’s case has not yet announced whether he will pursue charges, but the Justice Department has closed the case against Mr. Pence, announcing just days before the Trump indictment was filed that no criminal charges will be sought.

What about Hillary Clinton? Mrs. Clinton was the subject of chants at Trump rallies during the 2016 presidential campaign after it came to light that she had sent and received classified information on a private email server while serving as secretary of state. Unlike Mr. Trump, Mrs. Clinton had the right to see the documents in question; she was in office at the time and was cleared to see the most sensitive classified materials. The concern instead was that she had made classified information vulnerable by sharing it over an unclassified server and then deleted thousands of emails in what some saw as an attempted cover-up.

An F.B.I. investigation found that out of 30,000 emails sent to the State Department, 110 emails in 52 email chains contained classified information. Eight of the chains contained information at the top secret level. But only “a very small number” of the emails contained classification markings that would have signaled the presence of classified information. Announcing that no charges would be brought, James Comey, the F.B.I. director at the time, stated that Mrs. Clinton and her colleagues were “extremely careless” in handling classified information but that the F.B.I. had not found clear evidence that she “intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information.” Not only is Mr. Trump on tape discussing a classified document he knew he had no legal right to possess, but he also repeatedly attempted to play a shell game with classified documents to keep them out of the government’s hands.

Unless Mr. Trump pleads guilty (which seems very unlikely), it will be up to a jury to determine his guilt. But the picture that emerges from the indictment is of a man who never really took seriously the responsibility he had as president to preserve and defend the national security of the United States. When he was president, it was reported that he rarely read his daily brief, yet the indictment reveals that once out of office, he hoarded some of our country’s most important national secrets, trotting them out on occasion as if they were party tricks.

Those who are describing this indictment as Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida did, as “the weaponization of federal law enforcement,” misunderstand the situation that Jack Smith, the special counsel who was appointed to investigate the case, faced. Those who say Mr. Trump should have been allowed to get away with putting U.S. national security at risk have claimed that he is not receiving equal treatment under the law. But that is, in fact, what Mr. Trump is getting.


“The DeSantis administration will bring accountability to the DOJ, excise political bias and end weaponization once and for all,” Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis tweeted about two hours after the news. | Charlie Neibergall/AP Photo

By SALLY GOLDENBERG and GARY FINEOUT

06/08/2023 11:02 PM EDT

He’s only been a presidential candidate for two weeks, but Ron DeSantis is already finding himself defending his chief rival.

Several hours after news broke that former President Donald Trump was indicted over his handling of classified documents, DeSantis lambasted the Department of Justice.



“The weaponization of federal law enforcement represents a mortal threat to a free society. We have for years witnessed an uneven application of the law depending upon political affiliation. Why so zealous in pursuing Trump yet so passive about Hillary or Hunter?” DeSantis tweeted about two hours after the news. “The DeSantis administration will bring accountability to the DOJ, excise political bias and end weaponization once and for all.”
#note Rep and GOP candidate rep Gov. Ron DeSantis never offered any legal reasons for his opinion or any insight only a statement inferring bias.

[TheDemonLord]

Unlike our resident whataboutism trump expert "apologists" who claims to know more than anyone else in their specialist fields yet clearly has no grounding for their dunning krugerism.
Back years ago there were calls to send Hilary to jail yet i bet none of the trumpers are suggested to do the same with trump now will they, for they will just be using their modified form of whataboutism saying she was investigated but not charged so trump cant be charged or found guilty ......

here is real opinion from someone actually qualified to make comments. who weighed up the differences. Who is a proper expert.

It's funny how your definition of a Proper Expert is one who agrees with your view.

As for Dunning Krugerism - You remember that time when I did, in fact, know more about Covid Death reporting than the NZ Government?

See the problem with appealing to experts is that experts aren't inherently correct. That's why it's a fallacy. Let's take your quote from Oona A. Hathaway for a moment:


Those who are describing this indictment as Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida did, as “the weaponization of federal law enforcement,” misunderstand the situation that Jack Smith, the special counsel who was appointed to investigate the case, faced.

The problem is that Ron Desantis is a former JAG - or Judge Advocate General. He is - by your own standards - someone who is qualified to make comments. He is, as you put it, ' a proper expert' and he view it as Weaponization of Law enforcement. Your expert never addresses why someone who is also trained in the legal profession would hold a different view - they simply dismiss it.

If you want me to put any stock in your expert, then I think it's a reasonable expectation that they go into detail as to why he (and many others) are wrong. The problem is that the why they present in the body of their argument is contradictory.

People keep bringing up Hillary because despite the attempts to downplay the amount of material - let's address this quote:


that she had made classified information vulnerable by sharing it over an unclassified server

An unclassified server that was a willful act. Which means this line:


but that the F.B.I. had not found clear evidence that she “intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information.”

Doesn't wash.

See, if you build a server that you aren't meant to, then configure that server for email that you shouldn't use, then use that email platform to handle information that it shouldn't - that's a lot of conscious effort. It's not a case of 'Oops I accidentally forwarded it to my home email' - there's a whole lot of intent there that your expert (and the FBI) is handwaiving away.

The justification for why it's different is flimsier than a bit of tissue paper soaked in water.

The democrats and the FBI have set their precedent - you can do multiple willful acts and it still doesn't reach the threshold for prosecution....

Unless you are a Trump.

Now - if Hillary was in prison for what she did, you could make a pretty compelling argument that Trump demonstrated intent and should be locked up. Problem is, that didn't happen and the other facts around this case aren't as clear-cut. For example, we have the memo from the president the day before he left office saying he was taking the boxes home and declassifying them as was his right as president at the time.

You then have that the FBI asked him to put a lock on the area, which he complied with, and to await further instruction.

[onearmedbandit]

Whataboutism seems to be a popular choice of argument for people from both sides of the debate lol

[TheDemonLord]

Whataboutism seems to be a popular choice of argument for people from both sides of the debate lol

I prefer the term 'Precedent' - and I feel it's more than justified in this instance.

[husaberg]

Trumps former laywer
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/15/rudy-giuliani-lawsuit-noelle-dunphy-sexual-assault
https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2023/05/NYPICHPDPICT000008670165.jpg?resize=1536,1024&quality=75&strip=all
In the suit it contends he tried to sell pardons with Trump and him splitting the proceeds....
what's damming is the FBI already have all his computers so if there is anything on there its going to come out..

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Whataboutism seems to be a popular choice of argument for people from both sides of the debate lol

whataboutit?;)

[sugilite]

Let Bill Barr bring some of us here back to reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZPoPLKolec

I repeat, trump is well fucked

[husaberg]

Let Bill Barr bring some of us here back to reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZPoPLKolec

I repeat, trump is well fucked

Bill Barr

In May 2019, three months into his tenure as attorney general, the Associated Press characterized Barr as a champion and advocate for Trump.Barr had enthusiastically supported Trump's political agenda, misrepresented aspects of Special Counsel Robert Mueller's report, repeated Trump's assertion that those investigating Trump had engaged in spying, defied congressional subpoenas, and refused to give Congress an unredacted version of the Mueller report.
During his first tenure as AG, media characterized Barr as "a staunch conservative who rarely hesitates to put his hardline views into action


Trump supporters When the dude that was always in trumps and other repudicklickins corner says what he just did in the video, your dude you have well f'éd up.
Plus to say it on Fox news.....

"If even half of [the indictment] is true then he's toast. It's a very detailed indictment, and it's very, very damning," Barr said.
"This idea of presenting Trump as a victim here--the victim of a witch hunt--is ridiculous


But all we will hear will be but but hunter Biden, but hilary but joe biden but but but butt hurt....

[pete376403]

In the course of working for an organisation, it is quite common to handle information that is confidential to that organisation, however once you no longer work there, it is a given that any material or information belonging to that employer remains behind. In what way does this not apply to trump? Hes an ex president, nothing to do with running the country any more, no reason to hold this information. Unlike Biden, who is the current Pres, and whose job allows, indeed, relies on the handling of the information.

TDL - if you leave your current employer - how much of their confidential documentation do you expect to keep stored in your garage?

[husaberg]

In the course of working for an organisation, it is quite common to handle information that is confidential to that organisation, however once you no longer work there, it is a given that any material or information belonging to that employer remains behind. In what way does this not apply to trump? Hes an ex president, nothing to do with running the country any more, no reason to hold this information. Unlike Biden, who is the current Pres, and whose job allows, indeed, relies on the handling of the information.

TDL - if you leave your current employer - how much of their confidential documentation do you expect to keep stored in your garage?

hey look in the picture, do you see what I see?
not sure if its a set up but...
353319
<div style="width:360px;max-width:100%;"><div style="height:0;padding-bottom:75%;position:relative;"><iframe width="360" height="270" style="position:absolute;top:0;left:0;width:100%;height:1 00%;" frameBorder="0" src="https://imgflip.com/embed/1tl0ns"></iframe></div><p><a href="https://imgflip.com/gif/1tl0ns"></a></p></div>
oh look it widely reported as being a legit pic.

https://storage.googleapis.com/afs-prod/media/bbf95c50b36c426d9cd40c4c34e18c51/800.jpeg
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-indictment-plea-deal-bill-barr-b2355704.html

[Pursang]

Tim Palatore, the former attorney for Donald Trump claimed on CNN (or MSNBC?) that Trump didn't have the original docs...just Copies!!!!

'Cos that, somehow, makes it all better. Actually, copying classified documents is specifically prohibited and a whole other (really serious) crime in the espionage related rules.

Strangely, he has now clammed up and neither he, or the remaining/new lawyers are actively pursuing this line of "defense".

:msn-wink:

[husaberg]

Tim Palatore, the former attorney for Donald Trump claimed on CNN (or MSNBC?) that Trump didn't have the original docs...just Copies!!!!

'Cos that, somehow, makes it all better. Actually, copying classified documents is specifically prohibited and a whole other (really serious) crime in the espionage related rules.

Strangely, he has now clammed up and neither he, or the remaining/new lawyers are actively pursuing this line of "defense".

:msn-wink:

I have seen stuff written that some of them appear to be copies as the colour doesn't go to the edge i have no idea what a top secret doc look like. but i see a photocopier right next to his doc storage..... some say modern copiera have some sort storage facility so its possible to see what's been copied, But again no idea if this is true.

[pete376403]

I have seen stuff written that some of them appear to be copies as the colour doesn't go to the edge i have no idea what a top secret doc look like. but i see a photocopier right next to his doc storage..... some say modern copier have some sort storage facility so its possible to see whats been copied But again no idea if this is true.

Most office copiers can have hard drive storage and network connectivity, thats been the norm for the last 10 years or more.

[TheDemonLord]

In the course of working for an organisation, it is quite common to handle information that is confidential to that organisation, however once you no longer work there, it is a given that any material or information belonging to that employer remains behind. In what way does this not apply to trump? Hes an ex president, nothing to do with running the country any more, no reason to hold this information. Unlike Biden, who is the current Pres, and whose job allows, indeed, relies on the handling of the information.

TDL - if you leave your current employer - how much of their confidential documentation do you expect to keep stored in your garage?

The accusations against Biden were from the period of time after he was VP and before he was President.

So, by your own logic, it should apply to him - yes? If you believe Trump should be in prison, then by the same logic, Biden should be too? And Hillary for that matter. And therein lies the first problem - if you are only going after Trump - are you fairly enforcing the law? Or are you using it to target your political opponents?

But let's address the actual question - firstly - let's re-frame it so it's a more accurate scenario:

If you are the CEO of the Company - how much documentation do you expect to keep stored in your garage? Well, the answer there is a little more interesting. It's not uncommon for CEOs to keep mementos and other items that are tangentially related to their time running the company. Some of it may even be proprietary information.

The issue here is that before leaving office, Trump signed a memo saying I'm taking boxes of personal items to my home - as he still had the power to do so. It seems that there were some documents that shouldn't have been there. Fair enough - mistakes happen - the FBI knew where they were, told him to up his security - which he complied with - and that creates an awfully tricky situation for the issue of Intent. See, taking a box of documents that someone else had accidentally filed classified information in seems a lot lower on the intent scale, then... Oh... I dunno... building your own private email server to bypass governmental IT security policy.

And as James Comey told us at length - that doesn't reach the level of threshold for prosecution.

Which makes this case look increasingly like a Witchhunt.

[TheDemonLord]

hey look in the picture, do you see what I see?
not sure if its a set up but...

Looks like just about every office I've ever worked in where the Photocopier was in the same back-office location as the document storage.

Next, you'll be posting a picture of Trump's Kitchen with a Microwave near the Oven and use that as proof of something else...

[pritch]

Most office copiers can have hard drive storage and network connectivity, thats been the norm for the last 10 years or more.

Yeah. That was a thing years before I retired, and I've been retired just short of ten years.

[pritch]

Let Bill Barr bring some of us here back to reality.

[

I'd be mildly interested to know if that Barr interview took place before of after Trump called Barr a "Gutless Pig".

[sugilite]

I'd be mildly interested to know if that Barr interview took place before of after Trump called Barr a "Gutless Pig".

Yeah, Barr is far from the only right leaning official to be saying trump does not have a leg to stand on.

None of what Trump is spouting, or indeed his largest defender on this forum is saying can be brought before a judge because it is all meaningless jibber jabba.

Bring on Georgia I say, lets keep the trump bumps going in the primary polls.
Because the gop is following nature, in the form of one turd pushes out another. And the next turd is busy changing various laws in his home state to the benefit of himself, proving he is the worst kind of pollie. Thank god trump should block him out - this time.

[pritch]

This is from a professor of clinical psychology. I like it.

[pete376403]

Yeah. That was a thing years before I retired, and I've been retired just short of ten years.

Another interesting fact about copiers https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170607-why-printers-add-secret-tracking-dots

[onearmedbandit]

Another interesting fact about copiers

That has to be the first time those words have been said haha.

[husaberg]

That has to be the first time those words have been said haha.

https://omscopiers.com/101-amazing-facts-about-copy-machines/

[pete376403]

That has to be the first time those words have been said haha.

Well, when they were things that, among others, I installed and repaired, it helped to be interested in them.

[onearmedbandit]

It was just a joke, I'm sure there are lots of interesting things about them.

[pritch]

Watching some of the more unhinged comments by Trump supporters, One, who claims to have been a Federal Agent for twenty years, talks bout how Trump is going to be "indoctrinated" on Tuesday. He goes on to say how he and his ilk won't stand for it, the militias are ready, the nation is crumbling, blah blah blah.

The predictions for what will take place outside the court on Tuesday vary widely 'cause nobody knows.

If anything untoward does happen, on Wednesday they will claim that ANTIFA did it.

[husaberg]

Trump jr said this, it might be better for his dad if he just said nothing.

“Trump has the charisma of a mortician... And the energy that makes Jeb Bush look an Olympian,” Donald Trump jr
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/26/donald-trump-jr-mix-up-desantis#:~:text=%E2%80%9CTrump%20has%20the%20char isma%20of,video%20platform%20on%20Thursday%20night .


No wonder fox is ghosting him.
353322

[pritch]

Nineteen years a Federal Agent? I don't think so Tim.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8U1IabM_Ww

[husaberg]

Nineteen years a Federal Agent? I don't think so Tim.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8U1IabM_Ww

Could have been in the department of veterans affairs
US postal service or probation
he looks like he is acquainted the glass pipe
Or maybe the US fed agents are not all they are cracked up to be.

US federal agencies

U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations
U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Division
U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
U.S. Capitol Police
U.S. Central Intelligence Agency
U.S. Coast Guard Investigative Service
U.S. Customs and Border Protection
U.S. Defense Criminal Investigative Service
U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency
U.S. Department of Homeland Security
U.S. Department of State’s Diplomatic Security Service
U.S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Office of Odometer Fraud Investigation
U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration
U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation
U.S. Federal Protective Service
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement
U.S. IRS Criminal Investigations Division
U.S. Marshal Service
U.S. Naval Criminal Investigative Service
U.S. Office of Special Investigations
U.S. Park Police
U.S. Postal Inspection Service
U.S. Probation and Pretrial Services
U.S. Secret Service


U.S. Agency for International Development, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Agriculture, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Commerce, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Defense, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Education, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Energy, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Homeland Security, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Housing & Urban Development, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Interior, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Postal Service, Office of Inspector General
U.S. National Aeronautics & Space Administration, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Office of Personnel Management, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Railroad Retirement Board, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Small Business Administration, Office of Inspector General
U.S. State Department, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Social Security Administration, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of Transportation, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Department of the Treasury, Office of Inspector General
U.S. Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of Inspector General

[Berries]

It was just a joke, I'm sure there are lots of interesting things about them.
Nope.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/iEp3Ig3isxc" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

mf10ch

[Pursang]

There was supposed to be a new group present at Trump's Florida Arrest and Indictment.

Pro-lifers 4 Trump Sounds worthwhile....but then I thought, even 20 years would be enough!

;) made a meme
https://i.redd.it/zj36v79upv5b1.jpg

[pritch]

One commentator this morning said that these protests were not the same as Jan 6th. On Jan 6th there were organised groups under some sort of discipline, but many of them are in prison now. This time the various groups were meeting in the pub. OK...