Trump - 4 more years of this at least... [Archive] - Page 13

Viking01

27th May 2021, 17:12

..... Suffice to say I disagree - I come back to my point - if we aren't going to try and talk, then why should we not just bomb them to oblivion?

I don't like NK in terms of it's governance, it's ideology, censorship, human rights abuses etc. etc. But I still feel that if we can talk with them - it might be better than parking a couple of Aircraft carriers off in international waters and levelling what little infrastructure they still have.

I can only hope that if God decides to re-allocate his various portfolios, he doesn't assign you "international diplomacy".

The US has always been able to talk with the NK administration. But until Trump's era, it has largely chosen not to do so (apart from Bill Clintons broken promises in the late 1990's, followed by the Bush II Axis of Evil speech in 2002).

Because to engage in multi-lateral diplomatic talks - with some degree of US sincerity - might result in political outcomes not to US liking.

Such as:

1. NK-SK political engagement and diplomatic agreement (not necessarily reunification);
2. The US losing out (to Chinese or Russian parties) in contractual negotiations regarding exploitation of any mineral wealth - or infrastructure development - within NK;
3. Closer NK and SK relations - culminating in cross border visits by civilians, as well as joint business developments (such as the Kaesong Development Park);
4. The demand for removal of US imposed economic sanctions on NK;
5. The US being requested by SK to take its troops home, and its loss of a land-based "aircraft carrier" (useful for radar penetration and missile launch into China).

I too am not in favour of its governance and ideology, but having read plenty of recent history of the region (e.g. Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam), I can quite understand how much of the current situation has come about.

http://peacehistory-usfp.org/korean-war/

As for bombing NK into effective oblivion, well, that was effectively done (to great effect) by the US during the 1950-1953 war:

https://www.winterwatch.net/2019/10/historic-and-factual-basis-of-north-koreas-hatred-toward-america/

As well as the dropping of chemical and biological weapons on NK:

https://russia-insider.com/en/history/us-atrocities-korean-war-chem-and-bio-weapons-mass-civilian-bombing-and-execution/ri23685

Perhaps successive NK administrations have learned (from listening to the US's words and then watching US actions over the years) that having a nuclear weapon or two in one's back pocket is a handy deterrent to the US doing so again. And thus be very reluctant to halt its nuclear missile development programme.

And maybe, if given the chance (free from external interference - and US economic sanctions), the two Korean parties could map out and conclude a peace treaty and a mutually beneficial peace themselves.

https://www.rt.com/news/425346-korea-summit-agreements-moon-kim/

Though I do recognise that as a signatory to the 1953 Armistice, the US would also have to agree and sign off such a peace treaty. And nothing comes without strings attached.

FJRider

27th May 2021, 19:17

It certainly is....

Bu definitely not in the manner that you are inferring....

Reality is overrated. And your idea of reality radically differs from mine (Well it seems that way so far).

And Trumps version (or vision) of reality could not be anywhere near the version you or I might experience.

Access to the wealth and positions he holds ... makes it possible.

Such is (His) life ... :blank:

pritch

27th May 2021, 21:47

TheDemonLord

28th May 2021, 09:12

Interesting points as always - I'm going to focus on the one thing that I think you've glossed over:

1. NK-SK political engagement and diplomatic agreement (not necessarily reunification);
2. The US losing out (to Chinese or Russian parties) in contractual negotiations regarding exploitation of any mineral wealth - or infrastructure development - within NK;
3. Closer NK and SK relations - culminating in cross border visits by civilians, as well as joint business developments (such as the Kaesong Development Park);
4. The demand for removal of US imposed economic sanctions on NK;
5. The US being requested by SK to take its troops home, and its loss of a land-based "aircraft carrier" (useful for radar penetration and missile launch into China).
.

Now, I appreciate that on the face of it - those developments might not be strategically desirable by the US Military...

However on point 3, I think there's something you've missed - if there are cross border visits, where those from NK can see what their lives could be like in SK - that will be the Snowball that eventually grows to an Avalanche. I'm thinking the Soviet Union in the late 80s, east/west germany etc.

And a North Korea that moves from it's current totalitarian rule to something approaching freedom (I mean, let's use Russia as an example - it's still not at a level I'd consider to be 'Free' but it's better than it was) is ultimately better for everyone.

Viking01

28th May 2021, 12:10

Reply to DL post #3005

Afternoon.

Yes, you're correct in that:
1. I was simply focusing on aspects that would currently cause the US from even considering allowing the two Koreas to undertake a political reunification process under their own steam, and
2. I was deliberately ignoring a process by which reunification might occur.

Because until the US publicly announces that (i) it is willing to pack up its military forces and its missile systems and head home (ii) it will remove US sanctions - and support the removal of UN sanctions, I think that talk of some form of Korean reunification is moot.

And I don't see those specific events willingly happening, well, not in my lifetime.

Korean DMZ
I don't see a "breaking down the Berlin Wall" scenario playing out in Korea. If you look at your history books, you'll see that was a culmination of a process that occurred over approx a year(and involving other European states). The Korean DMZ is a far more militarised and heavily fortified boundary between two states.

And collapse of the Berlin Wall came about through increasing willingness of the Russian administration to accommodate change (perestoika, first mentioned by Brezhnev, but more actively pursued by Gorbachev).

Administrations and People
Apart from separate administrations with different (and opposed) ideologies - each with their own vested interests, the people of the two Koreas (despite their common heritage up to 1945) have since been taught to treat the other as the enemy. The generation that has any living memory of a past united Korea and a "common people" is probably almost gone.

Germany as a Model
You only have to look at the history of the reunified Germany for the first 20 years post 1989 to see how that played out.

While West Germany took on considerable debt to fund the German reunification process, ownership (or control) of many of the industries (and state assets) of former East Germany headed west. And even now, economic development of the eastern zone is still well behind that of the former western zone. Effectively, West Germany absorbed East Germany.

This lesson will not have been lost on the current NK administration.

Nor on either of its main sponsors (China and Russia). One of which still has memories of promises of "NATO, not an inch eastwards" , as a verbal undertaking given by the US during the German reunification negotiation process. And the other, very conscious of current US sabre-rattling and destabilisation efforts being conducted on its border regions.

So, you might say that there is currently a low level of trust on the parts of all parties.

What Would a Reunified Korea Look Like?
Before any reunification process can occur, you first have to define and agree what the end state will be:

1. One single country - like modern day Germany, or
2. Two separate countries - still with separate political administrations, but with considerable economic integration (and some limited social movement).

Plus the main parties to be involved, their long-term roles and their powers.

And then a pathway and a process (with mile stones), by which that is to be accomplished.

While I do have my own thoughts on Korean reunification - and possible steps in a process, I won't bother to try and outline them here.

Some Other Items for Consideration
That because of US actions (or political inaction on this topic), China and Russia could jointly reach a political agreement with the NK administration (outside of the UN). Including military support (defence).

That they could both revoke their current support for existing international (UN) economic sanctions on NK.

That they could ramp up supply of energy (oil and gas) to NK, and then both start to provide investment in and man-power to upgrade NK infrastructure (road, rail, energy supply) and manufacturing plant. Plus supply agreements for needed raw materials.

They both could enter into business contracts with NK for (i) mineral extraction and refining (ii) provision of modern phone network. Education services and development of tourism could also be provided in parallel.

And all of this without any US or SK participation. Just a thought.

F5 Dave

28th May 2021, 13:00

I'm sporadically listening to the Lazarus heist.

There have been several interesting programs on NK. The usual extreme oppression and fear that comes with a good dose of communism.

But this is how they fund shit through international cyber crime.

FJRider

28th May 2021, 17:27

Interesting points as always - I'm going to focus on the one thing that I think you've glossed over:

One thing YOU seem to have "Glossed over" ... North Korea, China, and the United States signed an armistice agreement. South Korea, however, objected to the continued division of Korea and did not agree to the armistice or sign a formal peace treaty. So while the fighting ended, technically the war never did.

Now, I appreciate that on the face of it - those developments might not be strategically desirable by the US Military...

With the war "Technically" still ongoing ... they won't want to go home. Their presence is the main reason the shooting hasn't continued.

However on point 3, I think there's something you've missed

Don't give him grief on missing any point ... you missed the fact the war hasn't ended.

And a North Korea that moves from it's current totalitarian rule to something approaching freedom ...

If their freedom included the ability to leave the country ... they'd probably ALL leave ... and wouldn't go back.

If YOU lived in North Korea and had the chance to leave ... would YOU go back ... :shifty:

F5 Dave

28th May 2021, 19:21

Sth Korea wasn't actually much better in the 80s even (at least from a human rights point of view) with a military dictatorship. Much has changed in a short space of time. A generation has experienced enormous change. A lot of the dregs ws because of the need to push against the NK regime.

husaberg

28th May 2021, 20:14

Another bit of news that might cause Trump to lose more sleep.

Trump apparently does not like Jeff Bezos. While he was president he constantly referred to Bezos' newspaper as the failing Washington Post. Nothing new there, the NY Times got the same treatment. Trump also tried to get the postal service to increase charges on Amazon parcels by 4 to 500% in an effort to reduce their profitabllity. There is no compelling reason for Bezos to be fond of Trump.

Bezos' latest business acquisition is reported to be MGM Studios for $9 billion. That gives Bezos ownership of "The Apprentice" the out takes of which reportedly contain use of racist language by Trump, among other things. As Colbert put it, "The private footage of a TV billionaire is gonna belong to an actual billionaire."

real billionaires are a bit more classy

look at the tweets after the election Trump lost.
Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Amazon and the world’s richest person who never publically endorsed any candiate.

“By voting in record numbers, the American people proved again that our democracy is strong,” he wrote on Instagram.

or Bill Gates the world's second-richest person.

@BillGates
Nov 8, 2020
Congratulations to President-Elect Biden and Vice President-Elect Harris. Thank you to the election officials and campaign workers who worked tirelessly to ensure a record number of Americans could cast a ballot and have it counted during such an challenging time for our country.

sugilite

29th May 2021, 11:17

At least one of us is having fun :D

The problem is that those groups will exist. Given the current political climate, the correct response is to NEVER apologise.

Thank God you are not a diplomat. Neither BLM or Antifa even existed when the 5 were exonerated when Trump should of apologized to them and their families - so your argument falls flat on it's face at that point.

You could also make the case that if someone (or a group) are found guilty of a crime, and the crime is of a heinous nature - it is right and proper to call for the Death Penalty (if that's what you believe in), if they are subsequently exonerated (with the implication that the appropriate checks, balances and processes in the imperfect legal system have finally turned) then there's you didn't do anything wrong. The system eventually worked.
Yes, I'm sure the 5 that did extensive jail time would wholeheartedly agree with your take on Justice "Working". :facepalm:

I'll find the post later.
Nope, no you won't because you never answered it - Kryptonite! Go on, give it a go mate. I'm picking the spin required for this one is going to add megawatts to the grid! :lol:

But I don't watch or follow Fox - In the wider, more 'grassroots' (I hate that term) commentary, that is closer to Trump's supporter base, There's references and discussion happening.
So, his msg is reaching his shrinking base only - what a winning media strategy !

Numerous times - and that includes times when I think it would have been right to intervene on what the individual states were doing.

As for Side-Stepping it - the question is what and by how much - and given some of Bidens rhetorhic on - let's say the first and second amendments - I'll take any side-steps you raise, in the manner that you raise them.

After the mauling Trump gave the constitution, don't go crying when the Dems do the same. I told you once Trump was out the dangerous precedents he gave birth to would come back to haunt the repubs. I would of laughed my arse off had the dems stacked the court and done away with the filibuster - but in true dem fashion, they all sat around a campfire in their nauseating woke state singing kumbaya as that train left the station. The only way they could of pulled it off would of been to do it on Feb 7 then rammed through a whole lot of stuff that they could of demonstrated was workable and beneficial come the mid terms. I tell you these dem fuckwits must all have Kevlar socks on, as they all repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot at any given opportunity.

Suffice to say I disagree - I come back to my point - if we aren't going to try and talk, then why should we not just bomb them to oblivion?

The NK/SK situation is a lot like the middle east situation as in there is simply no viable fix - especially one instigated by the States.

Are all lies of equal value and weighting?

I'll hear the principled argument that any lie, even if done for a noble intention:

"No Hunny, that doesn't make your arse look big"

is bad.
Or, "babe your beautiful booty is well accentuated by those new pants, lets get it on!"

But when it comes to Trump vs Other politicians - When Trump says it's gonna be the biggest/bestest/largest etc. I know he's not trying to deceive me, he knows he's not trying to decieve me and most of his supporters (at least the ones I watch/follow/talk to) also understand that there is no intent at deception behind his speech.

Whereas 5 minutes of (insert preferred politician here) and it's wholly different.

Hahaha, that has to be one of your best gloss overs yet mate - like the only lies told were exaggerations :laugh:
I showed resene paints your post, they have said it has inspired them to create a new line in gloss paint called "demented lord" - nothing sticks to it!

I did spot a bit of news that will bring warmth to your stone cold heart mate - The New Zealand Communist overlords organization is imploding!
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://i.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/300318926/opera-drama-third-of-nz-opera-board-resigns-over-artistic-direction-concerns&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1622324667180000&usg=AFQjCNGFi3YNUn7caq-BAAoVPzZiNF898A

Ah, Did TLDR try The old Trump did great myth for the economy......watch how he will like trump make claims but without any data to back him up.

And he did! Yes all it took was one BBC report. I'm picking the reporter earned a lifetime membership at Trumps Scottish Golf Course for that puff piece :laugh:

All polititians lie on occasion, that's a given. Thirty thousand lies in four years is a whole nutha thing and indicative of a mind detached from reality. Who knew it was contagious?
According to DL Trump only made exaggerations, not outright lies :laugh:
His Covid lies alone killed thousands. :facepalm:

pritch

29th May 2021, 12:01

According to DL Trump only made exaggerations, not outright lies :laugh:
His Covid lies alone killed thousands. :facepalm:

Over thirty thousand 'exaggerations' during his term. SMH

His Covid lies and his politicisation of mask wearing has killed hundreds of thousands.

Oh, and you were spot on with the kevlar socks crack. Unless the Dems wake up the US will be an authoritarian state in 2024.

husaberg

29th May 2021, 13:10

And he did! Yes all it took was one BBC report. I'm picking the reporter earned a lifetime membership at Trumps Scottish Golf Course for that puff piece :laugh:

According to DL Trump only made exaggerations, not outright lies :laugh:
His Covid lies alone killed thousands. :facepalm:

Isn't it interesting how one puff piece or Trump statement is enough for TLDR to crow about trump when it's totally not backed by actual facts or stats?
it's almost a religious faith.
Just like when he claimed to know more about US security than the FBI or more about US laws than a US supreme court judge.

pritch

29th May 2021, 15:11

it's almost a religious faith.

It's a cult.

husaberg

29th May 2021, 15:40

It's a cult.

A Cult of alternative facts drawn up with a big mag grease-stained sharpie that only attracts the best followers.

Cause Merica, It's Red white and Blue baby.
Red necked White trash with blue balls trying to grab pussy

F5 Dave

29th May 2021, 20:19

Jesus will strike you down for such insolence.

He only likes grabbing little boys.

Because he's a fuking paedophile.

husaberg

29th May 2021, 21:34

Jesus will strike you down for such insolence.

He only likes grabbing little boys.

Because he's a fuking paedophile.

Trump hates rapists, well he says he does.
Trump also claimed that he "hates" anyone who commits a crime such as rape.
So isn't it odd so many have accused him of Rape including at least one of his ex-wives and E. Jean Carroll
but i guess if you only pick one small part of a story from only one source whilst steadfastly ignoring all the evidence to the contrary it often will only tell the story you want it to tell.
Such like the confirmation bias of TLDR and the other trump faithfull.

TheDemonLord

29th May 2021, 23:41

Thank God you are not a diplomat. Neither BLM or Antifa even existed when the 5 were exonerated when Trump should of apologized to them and their families - so your argument falls flat on it's face at that point.

That depends upon which Time frame we are talking - If we are talking when Trump started his presidential run or subsequently - then both of those groups definitely existed.

If you want to look at the time frame of when they were exonerated.

Yes, I'm sure the 5 that did extensive jail time would wholeheartedly agree with your take on Justice "Working". :facepalm:

Sure, The system is designed by humans and run by humans and is imperfect - I'll take every critique you can throw at the western justice system and toss in a few of my own and I'll still stand by this statement:

"For all it's flaws, it is still the best and most fair system of determining guilt and innocence that we have yet devised" The fact they were acquitted at all means in some sense the system works - in the sense it has means, mechanisms, checks and balances to redress errors.

Nope, no you won't because you never answered it - Kryptonite! Go on, give it a go mate. I'm picking the spin required for this one is going to add megawatts to the grid! :lol:

Short answer: I have no opinion on it, because it is not a call to an action, directed at the crowd.

There's my direct response to it. My opinion is much the same, it bears little relevance to the question being asked at the time (which was did he incite the crowd)

So, his msg is reaching his shrinking base only - what a winning media strategy !

Who says his base is shrinking?

After the mauling Trump gave the constitution, don't go crying when the Dems do the same. I told you once Trump was out the dangerous precedents he gave birth to would come back to haunt the repubs. I would of laughed my arse off had the dems stacked the court and done away with the filibuster - but in true dem fashion, they all sat around a campfire in their nauseating woke state singing kumbaya as that train left the station. The only way they could of pulled it off would of been to do it on Feb 7 then rammed through a whole lot of stuff that they could of demonstrated was workable and beneficial come the mid terms. I tell you these dem fuckwits must all have Kevlar socks on, as they all repeatedly shoot themselves in the foot at any given opportunity.

Suffice to say you and I differ as to Trump's actions regarding the constitution.

Your comments on the Democrats are interesting though, if I was to posit that a certain invasive Ideology was the root cause of what you describe....

The NK/SK situation is a lot like the middle east situation as in there is simply no viable fix - especially one instigated by the States.

My personal view is that if people are able to experience Freedom and have the means to defend it for themselves, then eventually it will win.

As to whether that can be instigated or must be allowed to grow organically - I couldn't tell you. The point I'm making however is that however much I despise the NK style of Government - talking is better than shooting.

Or, "babe your beautiful booty is well accentuated by those new pants, lets get it on!"

And if you aren't an Arse Man (I've heard that such people exist - cannot confirm at this stage) - is it still a lie? is it of the same precedence and magnitude of other lies? If you accept the premise that not all lies are equal then you except the framework for my point that most of what Trump says that is termed 'lies' doesn't meet the threshold of intent/malice for what would be commonly termed a 'lie'

Hahaha, that has to be one of your best gloss overs yet mate - like the only lies told were exaggerations :laugh:
I showed resene paints your post, they have said it has inspired them to create a new line in gloss paint called "demented lord" - nothing sticks to it!

I did spot a bit of news that will bring warmth to your stone cold heart mate - The New Zealand Communist overlords organization is imploding!
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://i.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/arts/300318926/opera-drama-third-of-nz-opera-board-resigns-over-artistic-direction-concerns&sa=D&source=hangouts&ust=1622324667180000&usg=AFQjCNGFi3YNUn7caq-BAAoVPzZiNF898A

Well, let me know where I can buy a can or two - I'd be chuffed to have my own line of Paints.

Back to Trump - Most of what are reported as 'lies' (around 70%) are simply his manner/style of speaking. In the strictest sense (with no appreciation for context or applications of the English language) then sure, they are 'lies' but they are not in the same league as most of the whoppers spun by the typical politician.

As for the other 30% that are reported as lies, there's some selective editing in there (like omitting the clarification about referring to MS13 gang members) and other such tactics.

Interesting to read about the NZ Opera, it seems on the face of it eerily similar to what happened recently in the UK with the National Trust.

I might suggest that the average NZ Opera goer is probably well off, probably of a certain skin complexion, Probably Male, Probably Married and probably votes National.

And he did! Yes all it took was one BBC report. I'm picking the reporter earned a lifetime membership at Trumps Scottish Golf Course for that puff piece :laugh:

I mean, I could reference a myried of articles from right or centre right or financial-based Papers - but seeing how the BBC is now a left biased publication, if even they had to admit the Economy under Trump was good...

According to DL Trump only made exaggerations, not outright lies :laugh:
His Covid lies alone killed thousands. :facepalm:

Speaking of things claims that Trump was lying about - what is your view that Biden is now suggesting that it may have escaped from the Wuhan research facility.

I seem to remember another president making such claims and was widely and resoundly ridiculed at the time.

And whilst we are at it - when I went searching for where I'd responded to your question directly - I found this which I thought might be interesting:

- Telling the Illegal Migrants now is not the time (Translation "Let me stop the Border wall, tear it down and then you can come across")

Some might call that a touch prophetic...

TheDemonLord

29th May 2021, 23:43

One thing YOU seem to have "Glossed over" ... North Korea, China, and the United States signed an armistice agreement. South Korea, however, objected to the continued division of Korea and did not agree to the armistice or sign a formal peace treaty. So while the fighting ended, technically the war never did.

With the war "Technically" still ongoing ... they won't want to go home. Their presence is the main reason the shooting hasn't continued.

Don't give him grief on missing any point ... you missed the fact the war hasn't ended.

If their freedom included the ability to leave the country ... they'd probably ALL leave ... and wouldn't go back.

If YOU lived in North Korea and had the chance to leave ... would YOU go back ... :shifty:

Didn't gloss over it, it wasn't relavent - and yes I was aware that the Korean War never officially ended.

TheDemonLord

29th May 2021, 23:45

Isn't it interesting how one puff piece or Trump statement is enough for TLDR to crow about trump when it's totally not backed by actual facts or stats?
it's almost a religious faith.

Except that in the article it shows the

actual facts and stats

That you deny there existence is

almost a religious faith.

Or as Pritch put it:

It's a cult.

pritch

30th May 2021, 09:34

Came across this guy a while back. I like his attitude. This is his latest, events have moved on just a little but it's worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDWw6R3kMzc

sugilite

30th May 2021, 11:25

Look who is making a rare weekend post, got called back into work to complete what you should of done last week while posting on kb? hehehe

That depends upon which Time frame we are talking - If we are talking when Trump started his presidential run or subsequently - then both of those groups definitely existed.

If you want to look at the time frame of when they were exonerated.
I've not linked this to Trumps political career, you are the one doing that. The cunt should of apologized to the people he called for to be put to death right after they were exonerated. End of.

There's my direct response to it. My opinion is much the same, it bears little relevance to the question being asked at the time (which was did he incite the crowd)

Which is why I framed my latest attempt at my question to you very carefully this time as not to link it to whether trump started the riot or not. You have still completely failed to answer the question. And the question is very simple.
So try again. Is it good form for a leader to encourage his supporters to march on the halls of Government, telling them he will be right there beside them - only to turn his back on said supporters and go instead to a party of friends and family and watch it on the telly? Prove to me this is not your kryptonite, because as of now, it sure looks to be.
Any utterances of "I don't care" or It is not relevant to blah blah" will be accepted as being you have no defense for Trump in this matter.

Who says his base is shrinking?
Me. I said it. In terms of media coverage, mainly due to his "go to" of over promise and under deliver on the so called media platform he was building - he is sliding very much into the role as former president and reality tv star. Less exposure, particularly for the likes of a cretin like Trump, is less relevance = less followers. As people get to come down from the Trump hype, they have a chance to realize what prats they have been.

Suffice to say you and I differ as to Trump's actions regarding the constitution.

Your comments on the Democrats are interesting though, if I was to posit that a certain invasive Ideology was the root cause of what you describe....

Despite what the Republican party is currently doing and saying, I will be surprised if he is the nominee for 24, but would welcome it if he is. The thought of President Cruz, Hawley, McConnel, Grahame, or Cotton is nauseatingly worse! The Dems party is the party of wishful thinking incompetents. The Repubs are the party of just straight out arseholes. You can actually see it in play in the comments sections on their respective propaganda media networks. America is fucked and the only way in the World order for them is down. They got themselves there from straying further and further from the spirit of the constitution. As with all super powers before them, they succumbed to unbridled greed.

My personal view is that if people are able to experience Freedom and have the means to defend it for themselves, then eventually it will win.

As to whether that can be instigated or must be allowed to grow organically - I couldn't tell you. The point I'm making however is that however much I despise the NK style of Government - talking is better than shooting.
Good luck with that. As I said, there is no viable solution, just like the middle east. I doubt either scenario will be resolved without major bloodshed. It is not that I want that, it is more....you know...humans.

And if you aren't an Arse Man (I've heard that such people exist - cannot confirm at this stage) - is it still a lie? is it of the same precedence and magnitude of other lies? If you accept the premise that not all lies are equal then you except the framework for my point that most of what Trump says that is termed 'lies' doesn't meet the threshold of intent/malice for what would be commonly termed a 'lie'

I do not accept your premise. Judging which lies are not really lies, but little helpers is a never ending slippery slope.
Imagine trying to explain that concept along with defining the "line not to cross" to your children.

Back to Trump - Most of what are reported as 'lies' (around 70%) are simply his manner/style of speaking. In the strictest sense (with no appreciation for context or applications of the English language) then sure, they are 'lies' but they are not in the same league as most of the whoppers spun by the typical politician.
Trumps lies are not special. Just because he lies just about every time he opens his mouth does not transform the lies into being simply the way he talks - it just makes him a serial liar.

As for the other 30% that are reported as lies, there's some selective editing in there (like omitting the clarification about referring to MS13 gang members) and other such tactics.
Spectacular gloss job there mate, I see resene has already sent you some test pots. I notice you avoid my 2 examples of his lies, of which one killed many thousands of people. Trumps lies are certainly of no better quality than any other politicians, and certainly more prolific than most. Free pass for trump - DENIED.

Interesting to read about the NZ Opera, it seems on the face of it eerily similar to what happened recently in the UK with the National Trust.

I might suggest that the average NZ Opera goer is probably well off, probably of a certain skin complexion, Probably Male, Probably Married and probably votes National.
Do you think they go to watch the shows to spy on them in an effort to glean pointers to the Opera brigades communist takeover plans?

I mean, I could reference a myried of articles from right or centre right or financial-based Papers - but seeing how the BBC is now a left biased publication, if even they had to admit the Economy under Trump was good...
It was good under Trump, I admit it. It was good, but really - just a continuation of an already upward trajectory.
Imagine if Trump had taken a page out of Jacindas book on how to handle a pandemic. He would of come out a hero and absolutely steam rolled the dems in 2020. His downplaying role was a VERY naive attempt to shield the economy with a blanket of denial and lies. It led directly to his ultimate downfall.

Speaking of things claims that Trump was lying about - what is your view that Biden is now suggesting that it may have escaped from the Wuhan research facility.

I seem to remember another president making such claims and was widely and resoundly ridiculed at the time.

I never passed comment on that at the time because my American wife has a good friend back in the States with the right qualifications and active participant in the fight against covid. She told my wife that in her strong opinion this virus for sure was created in a lab. So I had a fair idea already.
Biden did ridicule Trump at the time, and it is looking more and more like he was wrong. But whether he had the facts and was lying is quite subjective. But to clear up my feelings on it - Biden is a politician, so if course he is a liar. And a denier for that matter. He is a dinosaur and not really fully equipped to lead a modern fast changing World. But is still leagues ahead of an inexperienced narcissistic reality tv star running the show.

Celebrities with no prior political experience have no business running a country. I defer to Bill below as he makes the points about celebs I very much subscribe to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ODeW4qaDg

mashman

30th May 2021, 12:08

Celebrities with no prior political experience have no business running a country. I defer to Bill below as he makes the points about celebs I very much subscribe to.

I got 1 minute in to the vid... maybe it got better, but I seriously doubt it.

:killingme... coz the trained politicians/businesspeeps doing the job of serving their people have done such a fantastic job over the last 100 years. I'm guessing Bill lives in an ivory tower, coz he certainly hasn't looked past his own nose... ironic given his celeb diagnosis of narcissism. So you, and Bill the shill, think that politicians/businesspeeps are the right people for the job? Ok... I guess you can at least blame Bill for your opinion and no form of logic generated by yer own brain. The tit in the video is an entertainer. Similarly to Presidents, he does as he is told, sorry, advised. I'd say give it some thought, but I've taken the shortcut and sent an email to Bill. Pretty sure he'll reinform your brain soon enough... unless he's been bought :shifty:

husaberg

30th May 2021, 12:17

I got 1 minute in to the vid... maybe it got better, but I seriously doubt it.

:killingme... coz the trained politicians/businesspeeps doing the job of serving their people have done such a fantastic job over the last 100 years. I'm guessing Bill lives in an ivory tower, coz he certainly hasn't looked past his own nose... ironic given his celeb diagnosis of narcissism. So you, and Bill the shill, think that politicians/businesspeeps are the right people for the job? Ok... I guess you can at least blame Bill for your opinion and no form of logic generated by yer own brain. The tit in the video is an entertainer. Similarly to Presidents, he does as he is told, sorry, advised. I'd say give it some thought, but I've taken the shortcut and sent an email to Bill. Pretty sure he'll reinform your brain soon enough... unless he's been bought :shifty:

Maybe you should run for parliament you would be sure to get in with all your credentials and great ideas.

But seriously. What exactly do you have to bring to the table, do you actually have the skills yourself to be a political leader?
Or do you sincerely believe there is some sort of conspiracy that prevents you from being elected as a political leader?
Or is it you believe the voters are not smart enough to know how great you really are?

https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2020/electorate-details-20.html
https://www.parliament.nz/en/document/DBHOH_Lib_EP_Mana_Electoral_Profile#_32

sugilite

30th May 2021, 15:06

I got 1 minute in to the vid... maybe it got better, but I seriously doubt it.

:killingme... coz the trained politicians/businesspeeps doing the job of serving their people have done such a fantastic job over the last 100 years. I'm guessing Bill lives in an ivory tower, coz he certainly hasn't looked past his own nose... ironic given his celeb diagnosis of narcissism. So you, and Bill the shill, think that politicians/businesspeeps are the right people for the job? Ok... I guess you can at least blame Bill for your opinion and no form of logic generated by yer own brain. The tit in the video is an entertainer. Similarly to Presidents, he does as he is told, sorry, advised. I'd say give it some thought, but I've taken the shortcut and sent an email to Bill. Pretty sure he'll reinform your brain soon enough... unless he's been bought :shifty:
Your post perfectly sums up why you came in near enough to dead last in your last election bid and you are on so many peoples ignore list here on KB. No one is interested in your rambling messaging. :yawn:

mashman

30th May 2021, 15:36

Your post perfectly sums up why you came in near enough to dead last in your last election bid and you are on so many peoples ignore list here on KB. No one is interested in your rambling messaging. :yawn:

:niceone:... ladies and gentlemen, the voter.

FJRider

30th May 2021, 15:49

Except that in the article it shows the

You must learn to finish sentences before you submit your reply ...

That you deny there existence is

Your grammar needs work ...

Or as Pritch put it:

Have you considered ... he might be correct ... ??

TheDemonLord

1st June 2021, 09:44

Have you considered ... he might be correct ... ??

He could be, He could also not be.

My contention is that when you have to proclaim demonstrably false facts to maintain your belief, that is Cultish behavior.

TheDemonLord

1st June 2021, 10:30

Look who is making a rare weekend post, got called back into work to complete what you should of done last week while posting on kb? hehehe

You're half-right, Wife is back at work and until her schedule gets fixed and we can update Daycare - I'm using my Works Flexi-time :D

I've not linked this to Trumps political career, you are the one doing that. The cunt should of apologized to the people he called for to be put to death right after they were exonerated. End of.

Trump wasn't much of a public figure in the early 00s really before the Apprentice started (2004) - which is after they were acquitted - I stand by the point that at that time, that was over 10 years ago - did he even remember that he had done it?

It's being brought up now as ammo against Trump's Political Career, which is why I'm linking it in that manner.

Which is why I framed my latest attempt at my question to you very carefully this time as not to link it to whether trump started the riot or not. You have still completely failed to answer the question. And the question is very simple.
So try again. Is it good form for a leader to encourage his supporters to march on the halls of Government, telling them he will be right there beside them - only to turn his back on said supporters and go instead to a party of friends and family and watch it on the telly? Prove to me this is not your kryptonite, because as of now, it sure looks to be.
Any utterances of "I don't care" or It is not relevant to blah blah" will be accepted as being you have no defense for Trump in this matter.

The problem I have is with your framing - you want to take the reasonable and literal interpretation of 'I'll be right there with you' as in physically there.

That - is completely fair enough - and on that basis you want me to concede that saying he will be physically there and not being there is poor leadership.

However, in order for me to accept your very reasonable and literal interpretation of the quote you take umbrage with, I - in return - get to insist on you also taking the reasonable and literal interpretation of the Quote that I have raised - namely 'Peacefully and patriotically'

So if you want me to concede Poor Leadership (which even given the above - it's a reasonable conjecture that seeing what was happening - leading the Protest might have aggravated things) then you must also concede that from his words there was no attempt at insurrection or riot and that the message was plain.

I don't think you will do this as you have your opinion formed on other related factors and as such, You will also have to grant me the same leeway that you grant yourself.

Me. I said it. In terms of media coverage, mainly due to his "go to" of over promise and under deliver on the so called media platform he was building - he is sliding very much into the role as former president and reality tv star. Less exposure, particularly for the likes of a cretin like Trump, is less relevance = less followers. As people get to come down from the Trump hype, they have a chance to realize what prats they have been.

The Media coverage though isn't a reliable Metric - as they have a vested interest.

But here's the serious question for you - consider all the Trump supporters - do you think that if he goes away they will stop holding the beliefs that made them like Trump in the first place?

One look at Britain and the absolute demolition of the 'Red Wall' primarily on the points of the increased focus on Identity Politics (which England has a much stronger aversion to, due to factors in our history) from Labour is an indication that the Blue Collar workers are increasingly getting fed-up of the middle class socialists that run both the Major Left-Wing parties. (democrats, UK Labour, NZ Labour)

The question is how long it takes.

Despite what the Republican party is currently doing and saying, I will be surprised if he is the nominee for 24, but would welcome it if he is. The thought of President Cruz, Hawley, McConnel, Grahame, or Cotton is nauseatingly worse! The Dems party is the party of wishful thinking incompetents. The Repubs are the party of just straight out arseholes. You can actually see it in play in the comments sections on their respective propaganda media networks. America is fucked and the only way in the World order for them is down. They got themselves there from straying further and further from the spirit of the constitution. As with all super powers before them, they succumbed to unbridled greed.

There's much I could pick apart here but I'm actually going to outright agree with the one statement:

"They got themselves there from straying further and further from the spirit of the constitution"

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness - The Libertarian dream is that everyone has the right to try and make it for themselves and the Government does not care if they do or don't.

The 'Arsehole' Republicans are closest to that view 'If you fail, you fail - don't come crying to me about it'
But the Democrats and their marxist influences - namely an insistence of equity and equality of outcome are diametrically opposed to that statement

Good luck with that. As I said, there is no viable solution, just like the middle east. I doubt either scenario will be resolved without major bloodshed. It is not that I want that, it is more....you know...humans.

Neither of us want that. My sincere hope is that once people get a taste of Freedom - Real Freedom - they will realize that it is worth almost any sacrifice.

I'd like to think that if the bad guys were landing on NZ's shores tomorrow, I wouldn't hesitate to pick up a Rifle and defend that which I believe.

I do not accept your premise. Judging which lies are not really lies, but little helpers is a never ending slippery slope.
Imagine trying to explain that concept along with defining the "line not to cross" to your children.

When you explain it to a child - all lies are bad.
As one grows and learns adult reasoning, then the lines get more and more blurry.

Consider a Deeply religious Family whose child takes their own life because of issues with identity and Sexuality - It is certainly a lie by omission not to tell them, in order to preserve the memories they have of their child, it may even be a direct lie if someone who did know was asked by the family - Is that a Lie that has Malice at it's heart? No - it's a lie to prevent someone from experience even more emotional pain than they are already.

That is my premise - that not all lies are equal - some have malice at the root of them, some have noble intent. Some even start off with Noble intentions and then end up in some horribly twisted variant.

Trumps lies are not special. Just because he lies just about every time he opens his mouth does not transform the lies into being simply the way he talks - it just makes him a serial liar.

Or a New Yorker....

But jesting aside - when it comes to the actual BIG things - the things that get written down, get implemented into Policy, as opposed to off-the-cuff remarks - those things, I've found him to be more honest than most politicians.

Spectacular gloss job there mate, I see resene has already sent you some test pots. I notice you avoid my 2 examples of his lies, of which one killed many thousands of people. Trumps lies are certainly of no better quality than any other politicians, and certainly more prolific than most. Free pass for trump - DENIED.

From my point of view, I would say he took a risk, it's one of the things I like about Trump - that he does take risks - The Covid one did backfire, although when you get into the detail and you look at the individual states and individual state Governance - it very quickly becomes much more nuanced.

As I've hinted at elsewhere - in NZ we have a number of inate advantages that the US simply didn't have.

Do you think they go to watch the shows to spy on them in an effort to glean pointers to the Opera brigades communist takeover plans?

No I think they go to watch the shows as a celebration of our rich and wonderful culture - a Culture that the Patrons of the arts (those old white rich men) want to see preserved and a Culture that the performers and governing bodies absolutely despise.

And when there comes a conflict - when those institutions start annoying their Patrons, the Money quickly goes away and then they have to reset.

It was good under Trump, I admit it. It was good, but really - just a continuation of an already upward trajectory.
Imagine if Trump had taken a page out of Jacindas book on how to handle a pandemic. He would of come out a hero and absolutely steam rolled the dems in 2020. His downplaying role was a VERY naive attempt to shield the economy with a blanket of denial and lies. It led directly to his ultimate downfall.

And this is one of my biggest contentions:

Something good happened - it was a continuation of Obama (despite it being double under Trump)
Something Bad happens - it was all Trumps fault (even when it was actually an Obama policy)

I've said elsewhere I'd prefer Trump's handling over Jacindas and as above - given we are an Island nation with realistically 3 ways to enter the country, that we had any community transmission is a blight on Jacinda - but suffice to say my thoughts on Jacinda are abundantly clear.

I never passed comment on that at the time because my American wife has a good friend back in the States with the right qualifications and active participant in the fight against covid. She told my wife that in her strong opinion this virus for sure was created in a lab. So I had a fair idea already.
Biden did ridicule Trump at the time, and it is looking more and more like he was wrong. But whether he had the facts and was lying is quite subjective. But to clear up my feelings on it - Biden is a politician, so if course he is a liar. And a denier for that matter. He is a dinosaur and not really fully equipped to lead a modern fast changing World. But is still leagues ahead of an inexperienced narcissistic reality tv star running the show.

There's a difference between the Opposition playing as the Opposition and what Biden did - in my opinion.

If the roles were reversed, would have been as charitable to Trump? I don't think so.

As for the last line - I can't agree, even if I was to accept all your critiques of Trump, in the manner you gave them - Biden is an example of everything that is wrong with Career Politicians.

Celebrities with no prior political experience have no business running a country. I defer to Bill below as he makes the points about celebs I very much subscribe to.

I could also retort that people who have never had to run a business and create wealth and work for people have no business running an Economy.

And without watching the video - I can see the point you are making - one of the beauties of the Western Democracy is that there is no barrier to entry - Anyone, with a sufficiently convincing idea can in theory become President/Prime Minister etc.

Whilst that may mean you get a few stinkers (Like Jacinda - from my PoV) it also means you get the likes of Churchill or Thatcher (also, from my PoV) stopping people without Political experience from running for Office whilst has some merits on paper is as dangerous an idea of restricting the right to Vote...

and for reference, there's an argument that could be made that one should have to pass a test in order to vote - but that opens such a can of worms that we accept all the problems of allowing everyone to vote in the hopes it will prevent the problems if only a limited number of people vote.

That said... Service Guarantees Citizenship....

FJRider

1st June 2021, 19:43

He could be, He could also not be.

Which one would you put money on ... as to being (more) correct. Pritch or Hussy .. ?? In my book ... both descriptions are pretty much the same thing.

My contention is that when you have to proclaim demonstrably false facts to maintain your belief, that is Cultish behavior.

Various (so called) religious groups proclaim all sorts of "Stuff" to their believers ... that to the unbeliever ... is just bullshit.

YOU "Proclaim" all sorts of bullshit to try to make a point. Are you a cult .. ?? You do seem to proclaim all sorts of bullshit ... ;)

The truth to one group ... are just lies to another group.

And for any person or group to continue in their beliefs ... that is their choice. And unless their actions are illegal in the Country they're in ... they are entitled to hold their beliefs.

Just another benefit of a free society I guess ...

And a cult can have a basis in a religious form ... OR ... a person (or thing) that is popular (or fashionable) among a particular group or section of society. For example ... a Rugby team. Or team Captain even. Was Ritchie McCaw a cult Leader .. ??

Ever heard of "Cult following" and "Cult Branding" .. ??? (Do you know the difference .. ??)

pritch

1st June 2021, 21:07

My contention is that when you have to proclaim demonstrably false facts to maintain your belief, that is Cultish behavior.

That's not a bad definition. Anybody who against all the evidence: the multiple recounts, the audits, the 65 or so court cases, still thinks Trump won the election is a fully committed cult member.

If the cap fits...

TheDemonLord

1st June 2021, 21:07

Which one would you put money on ... as to being (more) correct. Pritch or Hussy .. ?? In my book ... both descriptions are pretty much the same thing.

All my opponents tend to have a nugget of Truth to the claims - where we differ is what happens to that Nugget of Truth. My point of view is that the reasonable critique gets warped out of all reasonableness by a politically motivated media - and there are a myriad of objective instances of this - see the 'Insurrection' (deliberately editing out certain parts of the speech) 'All Mexicans are rapists' (Omitting the previous remark that was referencing directly MS13 Gang members) and other such instances.

So to my view, neither of them are Correct because they have moved so far from what happened due to an ideological hatred.

Various (so called) religious groups proclaim all sorts of "Stuff" to their believers ... that to the unbeliever ... is just bullshit.

YOU "Proclaim" all sorts of bullshit to try to make a point. Are you a cult .. ?? You do seem to proclaim all sorts of bullshit ... ;)

The truth to one group ... are just lies to another group.

With the Economy however, we actually have some hard data - that right up until Covid, the US economy was the strongest it had been since the post-war boom (that's a pretty damn good watermark) and despite the 'inheritied from Obama' rhetorhic - we have the data that show Trump doubled what Obama had managed.

At this point you come to a junction - If you are a reasonable person with a reasonable dislike of Trump, you might say things like:

"Sure the numbers say the Economy was good, but at what cost?" or other similar things - recognizing the undeniably true element, whilst providing a reasoned critique.

However, we see a lot of flat-out denial - see the 'Inhereted from Obama' Narrative that the data does not support. I myself shy-away from the term - but this is what was loosely called 'Trump Derangement Syndrome' - unsupported and irrational hatred of Trump. Another case in point - the 'Kids in Cages' story - again a complete media fabrication (The image wasn't what it was claimed to be) and it turns out the policy was one that was implemented by Obama.

Or perhaps you would take for example the claims about Antifa and BLM - I seem to recall a thread where Pritch wasn't aware that Antifa predated Trump's presidency by quite some margin - again these are objective facts, backed by hard data that are flat-out denied because it contradicts a certain narrative.

So when I point to this behavior and ridicule it as being as Cult-like as whatever it is I'm claimed to be doing - it's not without reason.

And if you were to draw parrallels between old-school christianity and the modern 'woke' left - you have a number of eerie parrallels

Excommunication = deplatforming/Cancel Culture
Satan = Trump
Original Sin = Slavery/Empire/Colonisation or simply being White
Recieved Knowledge = Intersectionality/CRT/Marxism
Rosary Prayers = Protest Chants

Etc.

As for me - if you think I post a lot of shit - as always, The price of Admission is Free and you get what you Pay for. Am I exhibiting Cult-Like behavior? The one problem with that accusation is as per below:

And for any person or group to continue in their beliefs ... that is their choice. And unless their actions are illegal in the Country they're in ... they are entitled to hold their beliefs.

Just another benefit of a free society I guess ...

And a cult can have a basis in a religious form ... OR ... a person (or thing) that is popular (or fashionable) among a particular group or section of society. For example ... a Rugby team. Or team Captain even. Was Ritchie McCaw a cult Leader .. ??

Ever heard of "Cult following" and "Cult Branding" .. ??? (Do you know the difference .. ??)

Sure and I've been on record of being a staunch supporter of Free speech - even championing people who I vehemently disagree with on issues where I support their right to speak, whilst vigorously critiquing what they say.

Championing the voices of those you disagree with, because you hold their right to speak as sacrosanct as your own right is the very polar opposite of Cult-Like behavior.

I've also been on record of vigorously disagreeing with someone in one thread about a topic, whilst simultaneously praising their virtues in another thread - again, very un Cult-like.

TheDemonLord

1st June 2021, 21:20

That's not a bad definition. Anybody who against all the evidence: the multiple recounts, the audits, the 65 or so court cases, still thinks Trump won the election is a fully committed cult member.

If the cap fits...

I've never outright said I think Trump won - I've said there are a large number of statistical anomolies (Again, we have 150 years of Voting data to compare to, so a pretty good sample size to reference).

There is a difference between being able to prove beyond all reasonable doubt exactly what happened and saying 'these factors and subsequent actions cast doubt'.

husaberg

1st June 2021, 21:51

That's not a bad definition. Anybody who against all the evidence: the multiple recounts, the audits, the 65 or so court cases, still thinks Trump won the election is a fully committed cult member.

If the cap fits...

we all know he wears that maga cap with pride.

it's funny how no matter how damning or overwhelming the evidence TLDR still claims he knows better.
A trait all the trump supporters share with their mediocre leader. Captain Lysol hydroxychloroquine combover

sugilite

2nd June 2021, 09:04

You're half-right, Wife is back at work and until her schedule gets fixed and we can update Daycare - I'm using my Works Flexi-time :D
I guess you needed a work break huh :bleh:

Trump wasn't much of a public figure in the early 00s really before the Apprentice started (2004) - which is after they were acquitted - I stand by the point that at that time, that was over 10 years ago - did he even remember that he had done it?
Surely a stable genius would remember taking out a full page calling for the death of five human beings?

It's being brought up now as ammo against Trump's Political Career, which is why I'm linking it in that manner.
Yes, you must protect that perfectly nice mr trump. I'm sure he would not do the same back to his opponents :laugh:

The problem I have is with your framing - you want to take the reasonable and literal interpretation of 'I'll be right there with you' as in physically there.

That - is completely fair enough - and on that basis you want me to concede that saying he will be physically there and not being there is poor leadership.

However, in order for me to accept your very reasonable and literal interpretation of the quote you take umbrage with, I - in return - get to insist on you also taking the reasonable and literal interpretation of the Quote that I have raised - namely 'Peacefully and patriotically'

So if you want me to concede Poor Leadership (which even given the above - it's a reasonable conjecture that seeing what was happening - leading the Protest might have aggravated things) then you must also concede that from his words there was no attempt at insurrection or riot and that the message was plain.

I don't think you will do this as you have your opinion formed on other related factors and as such, You will also have to grant me the same leeway that you grant yourself.
It must be so tiring being a trump apologist lol. So after loftily telling me previously I had asked the question that you did not see the two things as being connected, you now want to hook the wagon back up and link them again to win a point - hilarious! I knew the spin was going to be epic, but dang man, I'm resting easy that NZ will make it through this winter with plenty of electricity - all we need to do is ask you a tricky Trump question and hook that spin machine up to the grid!

So again, our genius riles up the crowd for an hour or so, mentions fight about 100 times and peacefully once, and he did not think that the angry crowd was going to hang onto his one utterance and not the other hundred or more - in my opinion a shrewd get out of jail card. Oh, our genius also forgot to tack the word "in spirit" to the I'll be there right along side you. Sloppy genius huh. You invoke Thatcher and Churchill below somewhere. I have no doubt both would absolutely despise the cowardly weasel trump. Both would likely quite cheerfully slit trumps throat.

The Media coverage though isn't a reliable Metric - as they have a vested interest.
Both sides of propoganda central rreported on damn near every tweet that twerp made, now crickets. Haha!

But here's the serious question for you - consider all the Trump supporters - do you think that if he goes away they will stop holding the beliefs that made them like Trump in the first place?
No (this is what a simple answer looks like)

when it comes to the actual BIG things - the things that get written down, get implemented into Policy, as opposed to off-the-cuff remarks - those things, I've found him to be more honest than most politicians.
Trump is a serial liar, big small and everything in between :facepalm:

From my point of view, I would say he took a risk, it's one of the things I like about Trump - that he does take risks - The Covid one did backfire.
Well, it was just a little backfire that killed only thousands of the people he was charged with protecting. He totally does deserve a free pass - to the gallows.

I've said elsewhere I'd prefer Trump's handling over Jacindas and as above.
Yes, Trumps bury the head in the sand, downplay a pandemic and kill thousands largely to appease a narcissistic ego would be the preferred response. :rolleyes:

Biden is an example of everything that is wrong with Career Politicians.
Still better than Trump. FFS the man ripped off millions from his supporter suckers with recurring payments on their cards, burying that little nugget in a tiny font - many pages into a disclaimer - classy leader right there

I'll leave you to the fruitless task of bailing out the good ship SS trump, pity he only gave you a sieve to do the job. It does not alter the level of swamp water in the boat, but does catch all the trump turds. Like I said earlier, being a Trump apologist must be such hard bloody yakka. :laugh:

pritch

2nd June 2021, 12:39

A read of the blog, "From the desk of Donald J Trump" is depressing. There is very little connection with reality. I doubt this item was written by Trump. He knows nothing of such things, understands less, and is only semi literate so can't spell. The spelling mistake and misplaced capitals may have been included for effect.

Remember, this is the guy who canned an international memorial service in Europe because he might have got his hair wet.

Donald J. Trump
8:47am May 31, 2021
On this Memorial Day, we remember the fallen heroes who took their last breaths in defense of our Nation, our families, our citizens, and our sacred freedoms. The depth of their devotion, the steel of their resolve, and the purity of their patriotism has no equal in human history. On distant battlefields, in far-off oceans, and high in the skies above, they faced down our enemies and gave their lives so that America would prevail. They made the supreme sacrifice so that our people can live in safety and our Nation can thrive in peace. It is because of their gallantry that we can together, as one people, continue our pursuit of America’s glorious destiny.

We owe all that we are, and everything we ever hope to be, to these unrivaled heroes. Their memory and their legacy is immortal. Our loyalty to them and to their families is eternal and everlasting.

America’s warriors are the single greatest force for justice, peace, liberty, and security among all the nations ever to exist on earth. God bless our fallen Soldiers, Sailors, Coast Guardsmen, Airmen, and Marines. We honor them today, forever, and always.

TheDemonLord

2nd June 2021, 12:42

Surely a stable genius would remember taking out a full page calling for the death of five human beings?

Do you remember everything you did 10 years ago? I mean - sure to us taking out a spread in a Major Newspaper would be a momentus event, but to someone like Trump, it probably barely registered on the richter scale.

It must be so tiring being a trump apologist lol. So after loftily telling me previously I had asked the question that you did not see the two things as being connected, you now want to hook the wagon back up and link them again to win a point - hilarious! I knew the spin was going to be epic, but dang man, I'm resting easy that NZ will make it through this winter with plenty of electricity - all we need to do is ask you a tricky Trump question and hook that spin machine up to the grid!

So again, our genius riles up the crowd for an hour or so, mentions fight about 100 times and peacefully once, and he did not think that the angry crowd was going to hang onto his one utterance and not the other hundred or more - in my opinion a shrewd get out of jail card. Oh, our genius also forgot to tack the word "in spirit" to the I'll be there right along side you. Sloppy genius huh. You invoke Thatcher and Churchill below somewhere. I have no doubt both would absolutely despise the cowardly weasel trump. Both would likely quite cheerfully slit trumps throat.

Each time Fight is mentioned It is well within the bounds of what is and has been considered standard Political Rhetorhic in the US. It is neither out of the ordinary or beyond the pail, it is bog standard Political speech. The one sentance where a directive to the crowd is given, it is very clearly and unambigiously clarified.

All I'm saying is I want you to uphold the same standards on both sides - if you insist on a very literal interpretation to invoke an admonishment of Trump on part - that's fair enough, so long as you also hold yourself to that very literal interpretation and concede no insurrection.

But as I said - you won't and so neither will I.

As for Churchill and Thatcher - I think they would have gotten on with Trump rather well. Both of them despised all forms of Marxism and both of them were almost prescient when it came to the Evils of that particular Ideology.

Both sides of propoganda central rreported on damn near every tweet that twerp made, now crickets. Haha!

Except the more independent news sources (the ones that I tend to follow) it's still being referenced, perhaps not as much as his Twitter account - but again, early days and without User interaction.

No (this is what a simple answer looks like)

And now for the complex question - What do you suppose happens to them?

Trump is a serial liar, big small and everything in between :facepalm:

See, on the Big stuff - like his Policies, he carried out the main ones that he campaigned on:

Strong Economy - Yep
Wall - Yep
Curb illegal Immigration - Yep
America First, everyone else second - Yep

Everything else is mostly background noise.

Well, it was just a little backfire that killed only thousands of the people he was charged with protecting. He totally does deserve a free pass - to the gallows.

See my previous comments about State's individual rights - I've conceded previously that I'd like to have seen a more proactive stance from the Federal level, but if you look at things like Cuomo's handling in New York (especially the rest homes) - there is enough scope to distribute parts of the blame more evenly.

Yes, Trumps bury the head in the sand, downplay a pandemic and kill thousands largely to appease a narcissistic ego would be the preferred response. :rolleyes:

I'll take having my Freedoms maintained and allowing myself to choose the level of risk I am comfortable with, over having my rights illegally taken away.

Any day of the week.

Still better than Trump. FFS the man ripped off millions from his supporter suckers with recurring payments on their cards, burying that little nugget in a tiny font - many pages into a disclaimer - classy leader right there

See, let's talk about the framing of this for a second - nearly every subscription AND donation service that I'm signed up to By Default sets up the payment as recurring.

If this was completely unheard of and only Trump did it, I might concede your point - but this is very very very very very common, to the point of Normality.

And in terms of what better - put it this way - Trump did more things (good and bad) for America in 4 years than Biden did in 40. All the while it's rather clear that Biden has used his political standing to his betterment. I'm not going to say it's outright corruption because on the face of it, it's within the bounds of low-level nepotism that is impossible to avoid - it still stands that he, as a career politician, has done nothing but ride the Gravy Train.

I'll leave you to the fruitless task of bailing out the good ship SS trump, pity he only gave you a sieve to do the job. It does not alter the level of swamp water in the boat, but does catch all the trump turds. Like I said earlier, being a Trump apologist must be such hard bloody yakka. :laugh:

It would be hard work if the critiques were fair and honest, but so many of them quite simply aren't - which makes it rather easy.

TheDemonLord

2nd June 2021, 12:46

husaberg

2nd June 2021, 17:16

Stylo

2nd June 2021, 18:39

Is memorial day when the Trumpist celebrate the US revoltutionary war airforce?

https://youtu.be/A2SFo3TkvhM

Thanks for reminding me of how much of a fucking idiot Trump used to be as the POTUS .

If he appiled for a job at a Supermarket today he'd struggle to get the trolley pusher job.

Trump can't even string two words together coherently. The people that support this idiot need some help.

Give me a break...

pritch

3rd June 2021, 09:04

Trump's much touted new media empire which turned out to be a humble blog has apparently closed. You can leave your email address at the site so as to receive "EXCLUSIVE updates" which would doubtless turn out to be requests for money.

In other news, Trump's Washington DC hotel is for sale. That's of interest mainly because he doesn't own the building. He only leases it. Perhaps it's not so profitable now that people who wish to see the president don't have to stay there to guarantee access.

Oh, and Trump and his sycophants are saying he will be reinstated as president in August.

sugilite

3rd June 2021, 10:41

Do you remember everything you did 10 years ago? I mean - sure to us taking out a spread in a Major Newspaper would be a momentous event, but to someone like Trump, it probably barely registered on the richter scale.
He is a self professed stable genius, and I'm sure seeing them exonerated would of triggered his memory.
Your free pass for him in this matter is beneath you good sir.

Each time Fight is mentioned It is well within the bounds of what is and has been considered standard Political Rhetorhic in the US. It is neither out of the ordinary or beyond the pail, it is bog standard Political speech. The one sentance where a directive to the crowd is given, it is very clearly and unambigiously clarified.

All I'm saying is I want you to uphold the same standards on both sides - if you insist on a very literal interpretation to invoke an admonishment of Trump on part - that's fair enough, so long as you also hold yourself to that very literal interpretation and concede no insurrection.
I've never spoken much about the "insurrection" as such. I viewed it more as he wound up a angry mob and send them down the road for a bout of disorganized carnage - which is exactly what happened. I feel he exceeded his wildest dreams on the outcome, but would of been well satisfied at his job well done. Again, all this nuanced bullshit you refer too shoots across the average maga wacker head. They did not sit behind a keyboard pondering the ways of their leaders words like you. they were there, got caught up in the heat of the moment and charged at their leaders request. An utterance of one word that was the only single opposition to the many thousands of fighting words stood no chance of getting in their brains - no matter how desperate you are to defend your position at all cost. They just heard march, march, fight, fight,fight. So they did, just without their spineless leader who probably had a bad flare up of his heel spurs :lol:

But as I said - you won't and so neither will I.
Sorry old boy, I'm claiming the win, you cannot argue both sides of the same coin. The answer even including your play both sides arguments - either he just deliberately mislead them, or "forgot" to add in "In Spirit". Either way - poor leadership. Suck it up.

As for Churchill and Thatcher - I think they would have gotten on with Trump rather well. Both of them despised all forms of Marxism and both of them were almost prescient when it came to the Evils of that particular Ideology.
whilst they may have kinda shared hate for marxism, there is absolutely no way either would of respected a cretin like Trump. And I'm sure you know it, disagreeing with someone is like a gag reflex for you. :lol:

Except the more independent news sources (the ones that I tend to follow) it's still being referenced, perhaps not as much as his Twitter account - but again, early days and without User interaction.
This is absolutely bloody delicious, you just got rodgered by your own idol.
He just closed his blog due to low numbers Bwah ha ha ha!
This brings your previous comments this week into sharp focus. You are willing to argue unlikely and at best overoptimistic points when hard facts are in plain sight. Your outlandish justifications and free passes have been exposed for what they are in this case. I predict this will be far from the last time Trump will serve you bitter humble pie moments on his ever accelerating descent into irrelevancy and his legacy of being the worst president in US history takes a concrete hold in the annals of history.

And now for the complex question - What do you suppose happens to them?

Pffft, complex - surely you jest? It is easy, they hook up their wagons to the next republican arsehole, like cruz, whorely or gaetz.

See, on the Big stuff - like his Policies, he carried out the main ones that he campaigned on:

Strong Economy - Yep
Wall - Yep
Curb illegal Immigration - Yep
America First, everyone else second - Yep

Everything else is mostly background noise.
Meh, he took action only on the lower hanging fruit policies that could be implemented via tweets.
Though his amazing health plan to replace obama care was impressive. Oh that's right, despite him making his multitude of election promises, not only did he fail to repeal obamacare, he never had a replacement for it either - well other than trumpdontcare. What a chump. To hard to work it out by tweet, so into the too hard basket it went :laugh:

See my previous comments about State's individual rights - I've conceded previously that I'd like to have seen a more proactive stance from the Federal level, but if you look at things like Cuomo's handling in New York (especially the rest homes) - there is enough scope to distribute parts of the blame more evenly.
Cuomo should be made to lie in a bed of his own faeces for a week then jailed for his handling of rest homes in particular. He should join Trump at either the gallows or in solitary in a super max for life right along side Trump. At either location specified works for me. Balanced enough for you?

I'll take having my Freedoms maintained and allowing myself to choose the level of risk I am comfortable with, over having my rights illegally taken away.

Any day of the week.
Unless you died from covid following your leaders shitty suggestions, then your just a buffet for the worms eh. But I'm sure the worms will taste that freedom you value so highly :sick:

See, let's talk about the framing of this for a second - nearly every subscription AND donation service that I'm signed up to By Default sets up the payment as recurring.

If this was completely unheard of and only Trump did it, I might concede your point - but this is very very very very very common, to the point of Normality.
Why yes indeed, lets do talk about framing - your framing.
In the text above you correctly point out subscriptions are very very very very very common. As a WordPress site developer, I have dozens and dozens of bloody plugin subscriptions, and others types of subs too.
What your framing deliberately misses out is how they always tell you at the shopping cart you are opting in to a subscription, and 19 times out of twenty send you an email stating as much and giving instructions on how to cancel said subscription. They DO NOT bury it in a tiny font deep in the lengthy small print. Oh, nor do they charge my card MULTIPLE TIMES over a one month period. This is yet another example of the lengths of fact suppression you will go to in order to freshly mint yet another free pass for Trump.
So now I have closed your framing with the rest of the subscription facts, that should keep your free pass for trump bullshit well contained. :bleh:

Well 2 things here - firstly - There you go Sugilite - seems I'm not the only one who visits Trump's Desk :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
But who got the last laugh sport?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300323696/donald-trump-ends-blog-after-29-days-infuriated-by-measly-readership-numbers
Again Bwah ha ha ha!

TheDemonLord

3rd June 2021, 11:43

He is a self professed stable genius, and I'm sure seeing them exonerated would of triggered his memory.
Your free pass for him in this matter is beneath you good sir.

I initially stated 'Statute of Limitations' - I've agreed that an apology would be proper, but I've also stated given the time scales, it's an unreasonable critique.

I've never spoken much about the "insurrection" as such. I viewed it more as he wound up a angry mob and send them down the road for a bout of disorganized carnage - which is exactly what happened. I feel he exceeded his wildest dreams on the outcome, but would of been well satisfied at his job well done. Again, all this nuanced bullshit you refer too shoots across the average maga wacker head. They did not sit behind a keyboard pondering the ways of their leaders words like you. they were there, got caught up in the heat of the moment and charged at their leaders request. An utterance of one word that was the only single opposition to the many thousands of fighting words stood no chance of getting in their brains - no matter how desperate you are to defend your position at all cost. They just heard march, march, fight, fight,fight. So they did, just without their spineless leader who probably had a bad flare up of his heel spurs :lol:

Sorry old boy, I'm claiming the win, you cannot argue both sides of the same coin. The answer even including your play both sides arguments - either he just deliberately mislead them, or "forgot" to add in "In Spirit". Either way - poor leadership. Suck it up.

Then you are also playing both sides of the same coin, Claim the win if you want - but I'll still claim the bigger win: Acquitted ;)

whilst they may have kinda shared hate for marxism, there is absolutely no way either would of respected a cretin like Trump. And I'm sure you know it, disagreeing with someone is like a gag reflex for you. :lol:

I'm sure Sir Winston would have mocked Trump liberally on his speaking manner.

But both of them would have seen the rot that Trump was trying to curb and would have supported his efforts. Thatcher was pointing out that the Intersectional Feminist Radicals of the 1980s were wholly Marxists, which in turn lead to the Critical Race Theory that Trump was busy trying to curtail - they would have agreed on quite a lot.

This is absolutely bloody delicious, you just got rodgered by your own idol.
He just closed his blog due to low numbers Bwah ha ha ha!
This brings your previous comments this week into sharp focus. You are willing to argue unlikely and at best overoptimistic points when hard facts are in plain sight. Your outlandish justifications and free passes have been exposed for what they are in this case. I predict this will be far from the last time Trump will serve you bitter humble pie moments on his ever accelerating descent into irrelevancy and his legacy of being the worst president in US history takes a concrete hold in the annals of history.

You forget, however, that the Blog was never an issue I particularly cared about.

I was happy to give it time - but you'll note I did say that without user interaction it was going to be hampered.

Pffft, complex - surely you jest? It is easy, they hook up their wagons to the next republican arsehole, like cruz, whorely or gaetz.

Possibly, I'm not so sure, I think that the Trump brand of Republicanism is going to have a few very interesting waves.

You've seen the rift between the RINOs, those that crossed the floor etc. and those that supported Trump - I see a lot of parrallels between that and what happened in the Conservative Party in the UK over Brexit.

Meh, he took action only on the lower hanging fruit policies that could be implemented via tweets.
Though his amazing health plan to replace obama care was impressive. Oh that's right, despite him making his multitude of election promises, not only did he fail to repeal obamacare, he never had a replacement for it either - well other than trumpdontcare. What a chump. To hard to work it out by tweet, so into the too hard basket it went :laugh:

Ah yes, because doubling the Economy growth is easy...

As for American Healthcare - yeah, for all the issues the NHS/DHBs have (never enough funding etc.) I agree that a social health care system has such an overall net-positive outcome that it's better than the alternative.

Cuomo should be made to lie in a bed of his own faeces for a week then jailed for his handling of rest homes in particular. He should join Trump at either the gallows or in solitary in a super max for life right along side Trump. At either location specified works for me. Balanced enough for you?

I'll take it :)

Unless you died from covid following your leaders shitty suggestions, then your just a buffet for the worms eh. But I'm sure the worms will taste that freedom you value so highly :sick:

Freedom to Die from my own stupidity is the ultimate Freedom.

Why yes indeed, lets do talk about framing - your framing.
In the text above you correctly point out subscriptions are very very very very very common. As a WordPress site developer, I have dozens and dozens of bloody plugin subscriptions, and others types of subs too.
What your framing deliberately misses out is how they always tell you at the shopping cart you are opting in to a subscription, and 19 times out of twenty send you an email stating as much and giving instructions on how to cancel said subscription. They DO NOT bury it in a tiny font deep in the lengthy small print. Oh, nor do they charge my card MULTIPLE TIMES over a one month period. This is yet another example of the lengths of fact suppression you will go to in order to freshly mint yet another free pass for Trump.
So now I have closed your framing with the rest of the subscription facts, that should keep your free pass for trump bullshit well contained. :bleh:

Okay, let me try a different tack:

LinkedIn
Microsoft Azure
Netflix
Spotify
Any Adult Website
etc.

All operate on the same business model - Sign up for a free trial, we just need a credit card to validate you are real....

(If you don't cancel the subscription, we'll just start charging you)

Is it a scummy business practice? Sure.
Is it something unique to Trump that only he does and therefore deserves criticism? Absolutely not.

But who got the last laugh sport?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/300323696/donald-trump-ends-blog-after-29-days-infuriated-by-measly-readership-numbers
Again Bwah ha ha ha!

We'll see...

Given that Facebook and Twitter et al were once banning people for discussion whether or not Covid came from the Lab at Wuhan (when Trump said he thought it did), to Dr Fauci doing yet another 180 recently and saying it looks like it came from the Lab - those people who were banned/censured/etc. for discussing something that now seems more likely to be true have a justified grievance.

If he does follow through on an actual Social Media platform, it will be interesting to see.

pritch

3rd June 2021, 11:50

Bwah ha ha ha!

Indeed. :rofl:

R650R

3rd June 2021, 16:34

pritch

3rd June 2021, 17:10

Quite a common business model to buy a lease for x amount of years and run a company or faculty onsite.
His book has really good insight to how these big deals work

If the lease has expired he's got nothing to sell. That could be right though, his business model is failure. The list is long.

https://labor411.org/411-blog/here-are-all-of-trump-s-bankruptcies-and-failed-businesses/

husaberg

3rd June 2021, 20:44

If the lease has expired he's got nothing to sell. That could be right though, his business model is failure. The list is long.

https://labor411.org/411-blog/here-are-all-of-trump-s-bankruptcies-and-failed-businesses/

but think of the tax he doesn now have toupee.........
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xxGrAZXvmuA/hqdefault.jpg

sugilite

4th June 2021, 10:26

I initially stated 'Statute of Limitations' - I've agreed that an apology would be proper, but I've also stated given the time scales, it's an unreasonable critique.
And I have pointed out that an apology at the time would of been appropriate.

Then you are also playing both sides of the same coin, Claim the win if you want - but I'll still claim the bigger win: Acquitted ;)

Haha, nice jab! Yes, I've tucked the trophy for that win away in the cabinet, right along side the arsestinger and bonez scalps :shifty:
I'll acknowledge up front you have your own cabinet with a handful of presented by sugi trophies of your own :msn-wink:

I'm sure Sir Winston would have mocked Trump liberally on his speaking manner.

But both of them would have seen the rot that Trump was trying to curb and would have supported his efforts. Thatcher was pointing out that the Intersectional Feminist Radicals of the 1980s were wholly Marxists, which in turn lead to the Critical Race Theory that Trump was busy trying to curtail - they would have agreed on quite a lot.
You must be posting this from your tesla whilst in ludicrous mode. I have no doubt both would have despised Trump with every fiber of their being. "The enemy of my enemy needs to be buried along side the enemy".

You forget, however, that the Blog was never an issue I particularly cared about.

I was happy to give it time - but you'll note I did say that without user interaction it was going to be hampered.
Fair enough, just like I did not care if the mob was rioting on insurectioning lol
But yeah, being killed off after just a few weeks - good to see Trump is still on the comedy trail :laugh:

Possibly, I'm not so sure, I think that the Trump brand of Republicanism is going to have a few very interesting waves.

You've seen the rift between the RINOs, those that crossed the floor etc. and those that supported Trump
I think the trump dick smokers have vastly superior numbers to the rhinos. Chiefly because of the stunning depth of talent the repubs have of arseholes within their ranks.

Ah yes, because doubling the Economy growth is easy...
I gues it helps if you have trillions of tax payers money to squander on giving the rich tax breaks huh lol
And I'm going with Husas stats over your one trump dick smoking bbc reporters puff piece :sunny:

As for American Healthcare - yeah, for all the issues the NHS/DHBs have (never enough funding etc.) I agree that a social health care system has such an overall net-positive outcome that it's better than the alternative.
Yes, why would Trump want to pull the pigs snouts out of that trough - scam recognizes scam!

I'll take it :)
trump at the gallows with cuomo - excellent! :bleh:

Freedom to Die from my own stupidity is the ultimate Freedom.
You and all the other magas can have an after death party celebrating your wins over the dastardly dems!

Okay, let me try a different tack:

LinkedIn
Microsoft Azure
Netflix
Spotify
Any Adult Website
etc.

All operate on the same business model - Sign up for a free trial, we just need a credit card to validate you are real....

(If you don't cancel the subscription, we'll just start charging you)

Is it a scummy business practice? Sure.
Is it something unique to Trump that only he does and therefore deserves criticism? Absolutely not.
well, I do not recall Trumps site saying "make a free trial donation" so your premise does not look like it can be applied to Trumps case of make a donation and we will take many more "donations" from you as often as we like. Even if you find a way to actually link free trials to recurring billing - do any of the companies you mention charge multiple times a month and at what ever amounts they feel like? No if course not. Trump is out front at being a thieving cunt by a very large margin - at last something he really is winning at!

Given that Facebook and Twitter et al were once banning people for discussion whether or not Covid came from the Lab at Wuhan (when Trump said he thought it did), to Dr Fauci doing yet another 180 recently and saying it looks like it came from the Lab - those people who were banned/censured/etc. for discussing something that now seems more likely to be true have a justified grievance.

If he does follow through on an actual Social Media platform, it will be interesting to see.
but it's all good because justice was eventually done right? :bleh:

And to quote a great President - "Cummon man!" We both know that if Trump and his team cannot even sustain a blog, and were naive enough to think it would be well received - they have not got a snowballs chance in hell of putting out a rival to twitter and facebook :laugh:
Even if they do, they will have a massive problem with take-up of non trump fans. Twitter and Facebook had bipartisan support already. Trumps pending still birth will only attract maga fans - so Trumps msg would only get through to the converted. But that is moot as no such platform will be forthcoming.

I feel you do deserve some sort of trophy for being the last trump apologist standing in kb - so well done for that :bleh:
R650 does not get a trophy as he is more a cheeky troll and not a died in the wool trump apologist like your good self :niceone:

F5 Dave

4th June 2021, 18:54

Actually I think he is just a troll. But an elaborate one. I really don't think he believes such twaddle. But he needs a hug and this is it.

husaberg

4th June 2021, 19:28

A

I guess it helps if you have trillions of tax payers money to squander on giving the rich tax breaks huh lol
And I'm going with Husas stats over your one trump dick smoking bbc reporters puff piece :sunny:

that old saying comes to mind,
"about the one more swallowing Trump, doesn't make it spring"......
https://www.betterthanpants.com/media/catalog/product/t/r/trump-sandwich-white-bread-full-of-baloney-wrussian-dressing-and-a-small-pickle--funny-anti-trump-tshirt-large.jpg
349152349153

1/32 man

5th June 2021, 11:15

It is great to drop in and see the literary skills of the contributors to this thread are still strong....so enjoyed reading back a little bit as I sip my Vietnamese coffee.

I am so glad trump is winning at failing, still.

husaberg

6th June 2021, 21:08

349168349169349170349171349172

husaberg

6th June 2021, 21:15

349173349174349176349177349178

pritch

7th June 2021, 09:02

R650R

7th June 2021, 15:29

All that talk about Biden's deteriorating mental condition is just projection. It always was. Parts of Trump's recent speeches are incoherent nonsense. He's wearing interesting trousers too, they appear to be held up by elastic, they have no fly, and anybody who still doubts he wears nappies should take a good look.

He's also still full of shit. He explained his physical difficulty descending a ramp at West Point by explaining that is was pouring ran. The photos all still show sunshine.

This has been discussed on a site that is pro trump (with same angle as me is still a lowly politician but better than Biden).

It’s apparent he’s been drugged/attacked by the Elite. What more evidence do you need of a commie takeover that now a puppet clearly lacking in required skills is in charge and the current most plausible popular opposition suddenly falls ill.....
Time to buy shares in makers of windowless railway wagons, red paint and excavators

F5 Dave

7th June 2021, 15:45

Trump was hugely incompetent. And easily played by Putin and Kim. And you are talking about communism?

Laava

7th June 2021, 15:50

It’s apparent he’s been drugged/attacked by the Elite. What more evidence do you need of a commie takeover that now a puppet clearly lacking in required skills is in charge and the current most plausible popular opposition suddenly falls ill.....
Time to buy shares in makers of windowless railway wagons, red paint and excavators
Just to be clear, are you talking about Trump or Biden? I know you're a Trump adorer, but still...

husaberg

7th June 2021, 17:21

https://i.imgflip.com/23l9fl.jpg

pritch

7th June 2021, 20:15

Was reminded of this today. The comparison is stark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsBOWSjOLsE

husaberg

7th June 2021, 20:41

Was reminded of this today. The comparison is stark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsBOWSjOLsE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnDAl5kxTGE&t=83s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI4dvc8WeSE&t=28s

TheDemonLord

8th June 2021, 09:44

And I have pointed out that an apology at the time would of been appropriate.

I agree on that point that it would be appropriate, but using it as a black mark for something that is nearly 20 years old is were I draw a line.

Haha, nice jab! Yes, I've tucked the trophy for that win away in the cabinet, right along side the arsestinger and bonez scalps :shifty:
I'll acknowledge up front you have your own cabinet with a handful of presented by sugi trophies of your own :msn-wink:

Oh, I know, don't worry.

Afterall, why else would you take me off ignore after putting me on it?

I'm fairly certain it's not due to my irresistable charm and magnetic personality...

You must be posting this from your tesla whilst in ludicrous mode. I have no doubt both would have despised Trump with every fiber of their being. "The enemy of my enemy needs to be buried along side the enemy".

If you look at the Policies that both Thatcher and Churchill stood on, they are very tightly aligned with the Policies from Trump that I approve of.

Further to that - if we look at who is closest to Trump in terms of their career history, you could make a good argument that Reagan has similarities (didn't start life as a politician, spent time in Show-Biz etc.) and Thatcher's relationship with Reagan is well documented.

Of course, since 2/3 of them are dead, this is purely hypothetical, but I stand by the assertion that based on Policy and based on the rejection of Marxist derived ideas - they'd have gotten on like a house on fire.

I think the trump dick smokers have vastly superior numbers to the rhinos. Chiefly because of the stunning depth of talent the repubs have of arseholes within their ranks.

I think there's something in there that is worth further discussion - In the UK, NZ and the US the mainstream Right-Wing party have a bit of a schism between the RINO types (Judith Collins for example in NZ) and the more Trump-esque Right Wing Libertarian types (Small Government, minimal regulation etc.)

In NZ - if you look at the rise of ACT currently - who have stood on that Right-Wing Libertarian platform
In the UK - you have the likes of Priti the Barbarian, JRM and Kemi Badenoch who espouse the principles that good Conservative Governance is allowing the individual the maximum amount of Freedom to live their own lives as they see fit (although if they could hurry up and repeal some of Tony Blair's disastrous reforms, that would be great... they have a Stonking Majority...)
And so in the US - you have a large Voterbase that encompasses both the Blue Collar/Working class types and other stratas of Society that want that libertarian sort of Governance.

The point here is - even if it's not Trump himself, I think there are going to be some interesting Echos from his brand of Conservatism.

I gues it helps if you have trillions of tax payers money to squander on giving the rich tax breaks huh lol
And I'm going with Husas stats over your one trump dick smoking bbc reporters puff piece :sunny:

I could pull a myriad of different metrics, all from left-leaning sites that show objectively Trump had an excellent Economy.

But here's the funny thing, and it's something often not well understood, that sometimes giving a tax break to the rich generates significantly more tax revenue. There can be multiple reasons for it:

- Tax breaks are known to increase speculative investment, investment which tends to increase productivity, grow the economy and then the increased money velocity results in more taxable transactions
- Tax breaks can encourage the '1%' to move their money from overseas investments/banks/holdings/funds back onshore as they now loose less money keeping it locally, this in turn is re-invested, stimulating the economy
- Tax breaks typically signal an increase in business confidence

etc. etc.

There's a common Left-Wing narrative that goes something like 'the right only give tax breaks to make their friends richer' - which is hilarious especially because

1: Although the Rich do get richer, so do the Poor - their standard of Living goes up
2: When the Economy is stimulated, it means that those most disadvantaged in Society get the most benefit: Minority unemployment was lowest under Trump, Wages rise for the lowest working (assuming you don't have large net migration to increase the supply of labour and therefore keep wages low....)
3: Left-Wing Marxist/Communists actually do just that, case in point - one of the BLM founders, a self-described Marxist, now retiring from Activism, after she purchased her $2 million dollar home
4: Really a continuation of point 3 - but the fundamentals of every Left-Wing economic prediction simply never happens, the entire worldview and philosophy that drives it is false and has been proven false multiple times (often with disastrous results) - just look at the Child Poverty stats under Taxinda...

Yes, why would Trump want to pull the pigs snouts out of that trough - scam recognizes scam!

This is an interesting one, I don't think it's a Trump issue however - Obamacare had some major issues

trump at the gallows with cuomo - excellent! :bleh:

Oh, we wouldn't be stopping there - we'd be hanging everyone that has ever uttered something Treasonous or in violation of the Constituion. Granted that would wipe out the entire Democratic party and a good chunk of the Republicans - but if you asked me to sign Trump's death warrant to purge the poison, I'd consider it a noble Martyrdom.

You and all the other magas can have an after death party celebrating your wins over the dastardly dems!

That's if we die.

And if we live, we can have a Freedom party celebrating the enshrinement and protection of our rights from the Tyranny of State.

I know which one I'd choose.

well, I do not recall Trumps site saying "make a free trial donation" so your premise does not look like it can be applied to Trumps case of make a donation and we will take many more "donations" from you as often as we like. Even if you find a way to actually link free trials to recurring billing - do any of the companies you mention charge multiple times a month and at what ever amounts they feel like? No if course not. Trump is out front at being a thieving cunt by a very large margin - at last something he really is winning at!

Focus not on the free trial part but on the 'Default setting up of an Automatic Payment' part - Again, I don't like it as a business practice, but it is very common.

Multiple billing charges - Never ascribe to malice that which can be ascribed to Stupidity. As you know, I work in IT - I've managed systems that have (from time-to-time) billed customers multiple times. Mostly it's a combination of factors (one-time manual intervention, a previously unknown bug, customer error etc.) that cause it - I'd need more information on the details before I'm willing to issue any condemnation.

but it's all good because justice was eventually done right? :bleh:

Certainly there's a great ring of Poetic Justice to it.

And to quote a great President - "Cummon man!" We both know that if Trump and his team cannot even sustain a blog, and were naive enough to think it would be well received - they have not got a snowballs chance in hell of putting out a rival to twitter and facebook :laugh:
Even if they do, they will have a massive problem with take-up of non trump fans. Twitter and Facebook had bipartisan support already. Trumps pending still birth will only attract maga fans - so Trumps msg would only get through to the converted. But that is moot as no such platform will be forthcoming.

I don't think there will be as much an issue from the up-take from non-trump fans as you think.

To quote Anton Levay (Church of Satan founder): "Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!"

Consider further that in Media, it's well known that Fear sells better than Hope - Whether it's Climate Change! Covid! Trump!

If Trump creates a social Media platform and sets it up in a way that allows User generated content and interaction AND is founded on the principles of Free Speech, then I think you will very quickly see an uptake from both sides.

The Disenfranchised Right will want to use it because they are tired of being banned for saying things that are subsequently shown to be True or at least plausible (Cough Wuhan Lab Cough)

The Journalists and other Left-leaning activists will want to use it in order to garner justification for their existence "LOOK AT THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT! THEY WANT TO PROTECT FREE SPEECH! WHAT NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ZIS"

(see also the proliferation of Left-Wing activists committing Hate Crimes against themselves to 'prove' their narrative)

I feel you do deserve some sort of trophy for being the last trump apologist standing in kb - so well done for that :bleh:
R650 does not get a trophy as he is more a cheeky troll and not a died in the wool trump apologist like your good self :niceone:

I'm going to sign this off with an interesting Observation - on some recent travels around the Country, I've seen multiple Cars/Houses/things that have Flown an American flag. At an estimate, I'd say at least 50-60% of those ALSO flew a Trump Flag or some other indication of a support of Trump.

Would you like to guess how many of those flew something to show support for Biden?

0.

Of course, this is purely anecdotal - but it raises the observation - the people who are demonstrably proudest of being American are also the ones who support Trump, what does that say about Biden and the Democrats?

TheDemonLord

8th June 2021, 09:51

"Immigrants aren't people, they are Animals"

Except this isn't the Quote is it?

This is a perfect example of the lies and misinformation about Trump. The actual quote, in full, was referring to MS13 Gang Members (who have a long and well-documented history of extreme violence and cruelty).

So not only is the Meme a Lie, the comparison is also a Lie. I mean Trump married a legal Migrant, so the charge that he hates Immigrants is demonstrably false.

And one has to ask - why the need to lie?

If Trump was as bad as claimed, there would be no need to selectively edit quotes, omit certain statements etc. You could just play the whole thing, in context and in it's entirety and be done with it.

Of course, if you were propaganda merchants and wanting to spin/maintain a narrative....

R650R

8th June 2021, 10:40

Just to be clear, are you talking about Trump or Biden? I know you're a Trump adorer, but still...

Both lol and it appears the lefts official beloved fact checkers have debunked the pants saga they are not on backwards lol

sugilite

8th June 2021, 11:02

Oh, I know, don't worry.

Afterall, why else would you take me off ignore after putting me on it?

I'm fairly certain it's not due to my irresistable charm and magnetic personality...
Don't sell yourself short sport ;)

If you look at the Policies that both Thatcher and Churchill stood on, they are very tightly aligned with the Policies from Trump that I approve of.

Further to that - if we look at who is closest to Trump in terms of their career history, you could make a good argument that Reagan has similarities (didn't start life as a politician, spent time in Show-Biz etc.) and Thatcher's relationship with Reagan is well documented.

Of course, since 2/3 of them are dead, this is purely hypothetical, but I stand by the assertion that based on Policy and based on the rejection of Marxist derived ideas - they'd have gotten on like a house on fire.

Watching a few vids on youtube of Reagan showed a articulate witty man. No surprises Thatcher loved him. Every time Trump opens his mouth an uncouth turd pops out. Neither Thatcher or Churchill were known to suffer fools. Trump is the poster child for being an offish fool. Lets put this one to bed, we are not going to agree ever on this point.

I think there's something in there that is worth further discussion - In the UK, NZ and the US the mainstream Right-Wing party have a bit of a schism between the RINO types (Judith Collins for example in NZ) and the more Trump-esque Right Wing Libertarian types (Small Government, minimal regulation etc.)

The point here is - even if it's not Trump himself, I think there are going to be some interesting Echos from his brand of Conservatism.
Trump is for Trump. I do not even begin to see him as a conservitive. Would be interesting to see a blind poll within the repubs asking that exact question.

I could pull a myriad of different metrics, all from left-leaning sites that show objectively Trump had an excellent Economy.

But here's the funny thing, and it's something often not well understood, that sometimes giving a tax break to the rich generates significantly more tax revenue. There can be multiple reasons for it:

- Tax breaks are known to increase speculative investment, investment which tends to increase productivity, grow the economy and then the increased money velocity results in more taxable transactions
- Tax breaks can encourage the '1%' to move their money from overseas investments/banks/holdings/funds back onshore as they now loose less money keeping it locally, this in turn is re-invested, stimulating the economy
- Tax breaks typically signal an increase in business confidence

etc. etc.
Just going around in circles here. I already agreed he "had" a good economy until his lack of presidential skills let him down when the virus came along and he tried to save the stock market. Fuck the people though.

This is an interesting one, I don't think it's a Trump issue however - Obamacare had some major issues
And Trumpcare? ;)

Oh, we wouldn't be stopping there - we'd be hanging everyone that has ever uttered something Treasonous or in violation of the Constituion. Granted that would wipe out the entire Democratic party and a good chunk of the Republicans - but if you asked me to sign Trump's death warrant to purge the poison, I'd consider it a noble Martyrdom.
It is so adorbs you think the repubs are somehow more princibled than the dems. Maybe once, then along came trump and on his coattails came the likes of greene :lol:

That's if we die.

And if we live, we can have a Freedom party celebrating the enshrinement and protection of our rights from the Tyranny of State.

I know which one I'd choose.
Like those poor trunmpers that had to stay home because if they wore a mask it somehow stopped them enjoying "freedom" :laugh:

Focus not on the free trial part but on the 'Default setting up of an Automatic Payment' part - Again, I don't like it as a business practice, but it is very common.

Multiple billing charges - Never ascribe to malice that which can be ascribed to Stupidity. As you know, I work in IT - I've managed systems that have (from time-to-time) billed customers multiple times. Mostly it's a combination of factors (one-time manual intervention, a previously unknown bug, customer error etc.) that cause it - I'd need more information on the details before I'm willing to issue any condemnation.

As mentioned I have subs coming out my ears, none displayed the predatory practices of Trump. I would ask just the nature of these subs you signup for that in your words "Again, I don't like it as a business practice, but it is very common."! Hmmmmmm

I don't think there will be as much an issue from the up-take from non-trump fans as you think.

Meanwhile back to reality - we both know there is not going to be a forthcoming social media platform from Trump. Way to hard. He could not even get a blog right.

I'm going to sign this off with an interesting Observation - on some recent travels around the Country, I've seen multiple Cars/Houses/things that have Flown an American flag. At an estimate, I'd say at least 50-60% of those ALSO flew a Trump Flag or some other indication of a support of Trump.

Would you like to guess how many of those flew something to show support for Biden?

0.

Of course, this is purely anecdotal - but it raises the observation - the people who are demonstrably proudest of being American are also the ones who support Trump, what does that say about Biden and the Democrats?
Interesting, I really notice US flags in New Zealand as well, and my job gets me all over NZ, I have only seen one US flag here accompanied by a trump one. you just drive around the same block multi times or what?
While living in the States for near 2 years, I lived in what should of been a Trump stronghold. At least 30% plus of any given street had US Flags, yet in all that time - the only Trump fan reference I ever saw was on the back of a septic tank truck :lol:
I do feel this "Dems hate America" rhetoric is a load of bullshit.

sugilite

8th June 2021, 11:13

I mean Trump married a legal Migrant, so the charge that he hates Immigrants is demonstrably false.
You mean the immigrant that was a model that somehow got granted a visa designed to only be issued for the likes of scientists with skills the US badly needed? Leading with the chin right there bro :killingme

And one has to ask - why the need to lie?
Yes, why did Trump feel the need to lie about his father being born in Germany? :lol:

If Trump was as bad as claimed, there would be no need to selectively edit quotes, omit certain statements etc. You could just play the whole thing, in context and in it's entirety and be done with it.
Like either US Party and associated propaganda corps is known for that :killingme

Both lol and it appears the lefts official beloved fact checkers have debunked the pants saga they are not on backwards lol
They just looked weird because he needs ever larger and larger nappies to contain the ever growing piles of shit he produces :laugh:

TheDemonLord

8th June 2021, 13:03

Watching a few vids on youtube of Reagan showed a articulate witty man. No surprises Thatcher loved him. Every time Trump opens his mouth an uncouth turd pops out. Neither Thatcher or Churchill were known to suffer fools. Trump is the poster child for being an offish fool. Lets put this one to bed, we are not going to agree ever on this point.

From some of the speeches of Trump I've watched, he's also witty - maybe not to your taste - but the example I go to was his remark to Hilary 'No, you'd be in Jail'.

When he's speaking from a Script, he's not that great, but when he's speaking off-the-cuff, he's always cracking a joke.

As an aside, given the legendary status of some of Sir Winston's jab's "If you were my Wife, I'd drink it" and "Ah, but in the morning I shall be Sober and you will still be Ugly", if he had a Twitter account, what Gems might we have seen from him....

Trump is for Trump. I do not even begin to see him as a conservitive. Would be interesting to see a blind poll within the repubs asking that exact question.

He was once a Democrat - his Policy positions wouldn't look out of place on the Democrat agendas in the early 90s (should be a hint to just how far the Democrats have moved left - which I'll come back to later).

In terms of his policy and his political alignment - I suspect he falls on a traditional centre left, libertarian scope (although by todays standards that would be mid-right libertarian)

Just going around in circles here. I already agreed he "had" a good economy until his lack of presidential skills let him down when the virus came along and he tried to save the stock market. Fuck the people though.

It's the where and how you agreed that I take umbrage with: Namely the 'inherited from Obama' narrative, which demonstrably is not true. Further to that there's an implication that the strong Economy was a fluke or accident as opposed to a direct result of Trump's 'Stable Genius'

And Trumpcare? ;)

We'll never know...

It is so adorbs you think the repubs are somehow more princibled than the dems. Maybe once, then along came trump and on his coattails came the likes of greene :lol:

Some Republicans are more principled. Although not the US republicans - I'd raise David Seymour's opposition to the Government Firearm legislation as a Principled right-wing position. JRM's refusal to claim expenses that he is entitled to claim 'Because I'm fortunate enough that I can afford it'.

And yes, there are principled Democrats....

the problem is their principles are Marxist in nature...

Like those poor trunmpers that had to stay home because if they wore a mask it somehow stopped them enjoying "freedom" :laugh:

2 things here - the first is a critique on Dr Fauci's position on wearing a mask (which is more just a point scoring jab, but nevermind)

The second however is the real point: Regardless of your view on it or not, that IS a curtailing of Freedom. It is an affront to the long standing British Common Law idea (which American law is derived from) that Governance is done with the consent of the people. When NZ was found to be enforcing rules which they had no authority to enforce - it is exactly this type of Tyranny that I am opposed to - even if it's just on the basis of it.

It may just be a Mask today, it may be something else tomorrow - each time the Government overeaches it's authority, does it ever retract? Or does it follow the ratchet theory?

Or perhaps another way - some might say that telling someone that they can only go outside if they wear a mask is similar to telling someone they can only go outside if they wear a Yellow, 6 pointed Star.

Afterall, they are both just bits of Fabric, right?

As mentioned I have subs coming out my ears, none displayed the predatory practices of Trump. I would ask just the nature of these subs you signup for that in your words "Again, I don't like it as a business practice, but it is very common."! Hmmmmmm

Well, I gave you a list of them - If something offers me a free trial but asks for my Credit card - generally I don't sign up.

Meanwhile back to reality - we both know there is not going to be a forthcoming social media platform from Trump. Way to hard. He could not even get a blog right.

Well, hold your horses a second there - there are the likes of Gab, Parler, Minds etc. which have experienced a large amount of Growth, which is directly linked to the editorialisation of content by the current Social Media companies. Most of those alternate social media platforms don't have the backing of someone like Trump.

It doesn't mean it will be a success, but I think to dismiss it as implausible is also unfair.

Interesting, I really notice US flags in New Zealand as well, and my job gets me all over NZ, I have only seen one US flag here accompanied by a trump one. you just drive around the same block multi times or what?
While living in the States for near 2 years, I lived in what should of been a Trump stronghold. At least 30% plus of any given street had US Flags, yet in all that time - the only Trump fan reference I ever saw was on the back of a septic tank truck :lol:
Actually it's been between Auckland, Palmerston North, Taranaki and a few other places - but even going on your observation - How many Biden stickers/Flags?

I do feel this "Dems hate America" rhetoric is a load of bullshit.

Does the average Democrat voter hate America? No.
Do ALL of the Democrats hate America? Also, No (Bonus Thulsi Gabbard Plug).
Do a specific section of the Democrats (who just so happen to be 'in power' within the Party) hate America?

To answer this properly - I want to come back to those Marxist Principles I mentioned earlier. They are antithetical to the US way of life, the American dream and the founding ideas that America is built on (a tangent of British liberalism) - ideas such as "Everyone is equal before the law", Rule by Consent, Natural/God-given rights etc.

Believing in Marxist ideas is to disagree with everything that the US stands for. Or to borrow a phrase from BLM (with their strong links to the Democrat party):

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure"
and
"Dismantling the imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy" (the key word in that one is Capitalist for reference)

To that end - if you believe in Marxist ideas, you have to hate America.

When you look at the likes of certain characters within the Democrat party, their activist base etc. It's clear that Yes, the current faction in charge of the Democrats DO hate America.

Or to put it another way - when it comes to the question of Memorial Day - to remember those who gave their lives to defend the ideals of their country - In the words of Kamala Harris "Enjoy the Long weekend!"

TheDemonLord

8th June 2021, 13:12

You mean the immigrant that was a model that somehow got granted a visa designed to only be issued for the likes of scientists with skills the US badly needed? Leading with the chin right there bro :killingme

But she did do it the legal route, correct? With all the necessary documentation, correct? Regardless of what I think of the Value of a Model to society (because I agree entirely with that point there) - she did everything right.

Yes, why did Trump feel the need to lie about his father being born in Germany? :lol:

Probably the same reason that many people that were born around the 1940s with germanic heritage sought to distance themselves from Germany. I seem to remember something happening around that time. Something to do with Silly Moustaches and Jews...

Like either US Party and associated propaganda corps is known for that :killingme

We've covered off the differences between certain lies - but this one I feel is particularly insidious, not only for it's comparison but because the source material is so easily checked.

And yet it's these sort of lies, half-truths that are regularly circulated, about Trump, not just by fringe organisations - but by major News Outlets and by even the DNC themselves.

One has to ask - if Trump is as terrible as they claim, why the need to lie about him constantly?

They just looked weird because he needs ever larger and larger nappies to contain the ever growing piles of shit he produces :laugh:

See, I'm still bemused by this obsession with if he does or doesn't wear an adult Nappy. I couldn't care less tbh - if he has incontinence issues at his age, then he has issues.

He could be wearing a full steel chastity harness for all I care. Isn't it curious that the 'side' that is so quick to tell others not to judge people based on their Looks (don't fat shame me!) or their sexual preferences (Don't Slut shame me!) or any N number of cause celebre issues are also very quick to ridicule someone because they might have a Medical condition.

pritch

8th June 2021, 21:41

And the Republicans like to say Biden is suffering from Alzheimers? These are exerpts from Trump's recent speech. That's the one where his pants are held up by elastic so he can get them up over the nappy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwlHpQRcqyI

husaberg

8th June 2021, 23:06

“We have people coming into the country, or trying to come in — and we’re stopping a lot of them — but we’re taking people out of the country. You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before. And because of the weak laws, they come in fast, we get them, we release them, we get them again, we bring them out. It’s crazy.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ9a0BV7YfI
https://images.indianexpress.com/2020/04/trump-1200-1.jpghttps://ta-images.condecdn.net/image/Y7Oo6AlRoG9/crop/1620/f/LS-tatler-4oct17-getty.jpg

TheDemonLord

9th June 2021, 08:36

Part of the Quote

How about you stop lying and include the statement immediately before the Quote you've posted?

There could be an MS-13 member I know about -- if they don't have a certain threshold, I cannot tell [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] about it,

To which Trump then responds - and from the context, it's clear the 'Animals' remark refers to the violent Gang, MS13/

sugilite

9th June 2021, 08:40

From some of the speeches of Trump I've watched, he's also witty - maybe not to your taste - but the example I go to was his remark to Hilary 'No, you'd be in Jail'.

As an aside, given the legendary status of some of Sir Winston's jab's "If you were my Wife, I'd drink it" and "Ah, but in the morning I shall be Sober and you will still be Ugly", if he had a Twitter account, what Gems might we have seen from him....
"you would be in jail" vs "if you were my wife I'd drink it" are not even in the same universe of wit level. You love to give Trump a good back rub at any given opportunity huh :lol:

He was once a Democrat - his Policy positions wouldn't look out of place on the Democrat agendas in the early 90s (should be a hint to just how far the Democrats have moved left - which I'll come back to later).
As mentioned, Trump is for trump. Policy was dictated on how he feels that day and implemented by tweet. You cling onto that manifest of policies you outlined a while back like Trump actually took it seriously :laugh: I would be surprised if he even read it.

It's the where and how you agreed that I take umbrage with: Namely the 'inherited from Obama' narrative, which demonstrably is not true. Further to that there's an implication that the strong Economy was a fluke or accident as opposed to a direct result of Trump's 'Stable Genius'

We'll never know...
Does not stop you from fighting tooth and nail to make out it was all Trump though eh :laugh:

Some Republicans are more principled. Although not the US republicans - I'd raise David Seymour's opposition to the Government Firearm legislation as a Principled right-wing position. JRM's refusal to claim expenses that he is entitled to claim 'Because I'm fortunate enough that I can afford it'.

And yes, there are principled Democrats....

the problem is their principles are Marxist in nature...
The coffin was lowered on Repulican decency from 2016.
Loved Seymour in dancing with the stars! As a pollie, he is principled to his own beliefs, which by pollie standards is an achievement.

2 things here - the first is a critique on Dr Fauci's position on wearing a mask (which is more just a point scoring jab, but nevermind)

The second however is the real point: Regardless of your view on it or not, that IS a curtailing of Freedom. It is an affront to the long standing British Common Law idea (which American law is derived from) that Governance is done with the consent of the people. When NZ was found to be enforcing rules which they had no authority to enforce - it is exactly this type of Tyranny that I am opposed to - even if it's just on the basis of it.

It may just be a Mask today, it may be something else tomorrow - each time the Government overeaches it's authority, does it ever retract? Or does it follow the ratchet theory?

Or perhaps another way - some might say that telling someone that they can only go outside if they wear a mask is similar to telling someone they can only go outside if they wear a Yellow, 6 pointed Star.

Afterall, they are both just bits of Fabric, right?
One was a "mark" on a race, the other was protection in a pandemic. Your premise of comparison is complete fuckwitty.

Well, I gave you a list of them - If something offers me a free trial but asks for my Credit card - generally I don't sign up.
This premise is to far outside of the situation being discussed. Trump aimed to rip off his supporters and did so. End of.

Well, hold your horses a second there - there are the likes of Gab, Parler, Minds etc. which have experienced a large amount of Growth, which is directly linked to the editorialisation of content by the current Social Media companies. Most of those alternate social media platforms don't have the backing of someone like Trump.

It doesn't mean it will be a success, but I think to dismiss it as implausible is also unfair.
Totally fair, you know what a mountain to climb producing a valid alternative to Twitter and fb would be. Trump does not have the tenacity or brains trust on hand to carry it out. Still born at best, HIGHLY unlikely to ever be released the likely outcome. Keep playing with the unicorns and fairies if you please.

Actually it's been between Auckland, Palmerston North, Taranaki and a few other places - but even going on your observation - How many Biden stickers/Flags?
None, so 1 vs 0. Not much to get excited about there.

Does the average Democrat voter hate America? No.
Do ALL of the Democrats hate America? Also, No (Bonus Thulsi Gabbard Plug).
Do a specific section of the Democrats (who just so happen to be 'in power' within the Party) hate America?
Yet when I asked you for quotes from any of the "squad" stating they hated America - crickets!

To answer this properly - I want to come back to those Marxist Principles I mentioned earlier. They are antithetical to the US way of life, the American dream and the founding ideas that America is built on (a tangent of British liberalism) - ideas such as "Everyone is equal before the law", Rule by Consent, Natural/God-given rights etc.

Believing in Marxist ideas is to disagree with everything that the US stands for. Or to borrow a phrase from BLM (with their strong links to the Democrat party):

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure"
and
"Dismantling the imperialist white supremacist capitalist patriarchy" (the key word in that one is Capitalist for reference)

To that end - if you believe in Marxist ideas, you have to hate America.

When you look at the likes of certain characters within the Democrat party, their activist base etc. It's clear that Yes, the current faction in charge of the Democrats DO hate America.
marxist, marxist, commie, commie, commie. Give me a break. Sure a dem or two may admire some marxist ideals. But turning the US into a marxist regime. Gimee a break., Go spent time in the US. Your so paranoid it is laughable.

Or to put it another way - when it comes to the question of Memorial Day - to remember those who gave their lives to defend the ideals of their country - In the words of Kamala Harris "Enjoy the Long weekend!"
Yet when Trump says 'I like people who weren't captured' you strangely had nothing to say? Hypocrite.

But she did do it the legal route, correct? With all the necessary documentation, correct? Regardless of what I think of the Value of a Model to society (because I agree entirely with that point there) - she did everything right.
Unlikely it was strictly legal, entirely likely some officials were bribed. TDL "There are anomalies in the election and despite 50+ cases thrown out of court - the election was stolen!". Model who happens to be trumps then girlfriend now wife "somehow" gets a visa designed for ultra skilled experts in their field". All legit correct? Hypocrite.

Probably the same reason that many people that were born around the 1940s with germanic heritage sought to distance themselves from Germany. I seem to remember something happening around that time. Something to do with Silly Moustaches and Jews...
So you are saying Trump was lying because he wanted to get closer to Germany? Wanted to distance himself from a mustache? :confused:

We've covered off the differences between certain lies - but this one I feel is particularly insidious, not only for it's comparison but because the source material is so easily checked.

And yet it's these sort of lies, half-truths that are regularly circulated, about Trump, not just by fringe organisations - but by major News Outlets and by even the DNC themselves.

One has to ask - if Trump is as terrible as they claim, why the need to lie about him constantly?
Yet strangely you ignore all the other sides exact same behavior and lies. And you are right, I do not understand why the left make up lies about trump when there is such an unbelievably rich seam of lies that he has told!

See, I'm still bemused by this obsession with if he does or doesn't wear an adult Nappy. I couldn't care less tbh - if he has incontinence issues at his age, then he has issues.

He could be wearing a full steel chastity harness for all I care. Isn't it curious that the 'side' that is so quick to tell others not to judge people based on their Looks (don't fat shame me!) or their sexual preferences (Don't Slut shame me!) or any N number of cause celebre issues are also very quick to ridicule someone because they might have a Medical condition.

I'm bemused and amused that Trump wears nappies. Many people are. It is human nature. Especially when the victim of bemusement in this case is such a public bully.
Trump is a pugnacious piece of shit that ultimately is the author of the ridicule he attracts.

Now it is time to really drop a clanger.
With all these investigations into Trump, if they cannot pin anything on him despite having cretins like his ex lawyer cohen dishing the dirt - then I'm seriously wondering if he is as crooked as they say he is. With the knowledge cohen has, they should of been able to dig up the bodies right away, and lots of them.
However, I still feel he should be thrown in jail for killing thousands with his virus lies alone. But I would upgrade him from I would not piss on him if he was on fire to I would piss on him, just not necessarily the parts of him that are on fire. Having said all that, I also wonder if the real powers that be do have all the evidence they need, but are hesitant to seriously punish him as that would require them to acknowledge that their system is hopelessly corrupt beyond repair. Which if course it is, because both sides are hopelessly compromised and corrupt to their very core.

You are so obsessed with commies taking over the us, but the real danger is another certain country is on what I consider to be a near unstoppable roll. On it's current trajectory, the US will not be a super power at all within a decade, and the "other country" will be in control. That scares me. The "other" country is supposed to be communist, but from what I can make out - is capitalist with a dictatorship at the top. America is fucked, I wish it wasn't I sincerely do - but it is.

pritch

9th June 2021, 08:52

Your premise of comparison is complete fuckwitty.

That is an understatement. Not only was the comment you replied to completely stupid there is nowhere outside the KKK or similar groups that remark would be considered anything but completely offensive.

sugilite

9th June 2021, 08:59

That is an understatement. Not only was the comment you replied to completely stupid there is nowhere outside the KKK or similar groups that remark would be considered anything but completely offensive.

He does get carried away somewhat :laugh:

Love the news below - end of video "It does appear Trump is being squeezed". Lets hope his elastic on those nappies is the bestest elastic in the World :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBsj2APym40

R650R

9th June 2021, 09:18

That is an understatement. Not only was the comment you replied to completely stupid there is nowhere outside the KKK or similar groups that remark would be considered anything but completely offensive.

The greatest offence is yet to come once the commies finish their takeover and suspend elections.... cause they so superior we don’t need personal choice anymore. And no elections will save money and carbon emissions and allow the govt time to make more laws and restrictions. Exhausted from your angst powering the machine you’ll forget the freedom s we once had and enjoy the new universal slavery for all. There shall be no more rewards as with no choice but to comply no incentive is needed...

In all Trumps remarks about illegals it’s quite clear he his talking about the criminal element of some. I wonder if we had Chinese boat people landing here at same rate as Mexicans would people still say let them all in...

https://youtu.be/fHMoDt3nSHs

TheDemonLord

9th June 2021, 12:41

"you would be in jail" vs "if you were my wife I'd drink it" are not even in the same universe of wit level. You love to give Trump a good back rub at any given opportunity huh :lol:

Well, I laughed heartily at both. I'll grant you not the same league, but I won't agree to not the same universe.

As mentioned, Trump is for trump. Policy was dictated on how he feels that day and implemented by tweet. You cling onto that manifest of policies you outlined a while back like Trump actually took it seriously :laugh: I would be surprised if he even read it.

Given what Trump forwent to become the PoTUS, I don't think the claim Trump is for Trump can be argued. Even if I accept your next statement that he made policy based on a Gut-Feel - Is that necessarily a bad thing? I know many people who make good, virtuous decisions on various matters - all from their Gut instinct (and some of those don't have the necessary smarts to go through a period of deep introspection to understand WHY they did it).

Does not stop you from fighting tooth and nail to make out it was all Trump though eh :laugh:

It's one area where we have some very definitive data that Trump did what he set out to do, It's also one area where we see the most amount of Apologia 'Inherited from Obama' - which is the part that I enjoy fighting on because it shows a level of disconnect.

The coffin was lowered on Repulican decency from 2016.
Loved Seymour in dancing with the stars! As a pollie, he is principled to his own beliefs, which by pollie standards is an achievement.

TBH American Politics has always had far less decorum than say the UK - Certainly Trump's brash and brusque style was in contrast to the likes of Bush (although I'd prefer dropping one-liners than dropping bombs), but likewise the Media demonization of Trump is equally to blame for the 'lowering of standards'

One was a "mark" on a race, the other was protection in a pandemic. Your premise of comparison is complete fuckwitty.

There's a reason I chose that as a comparison. You rightly point out that they are worlds apart - but you do so only because of what happened after the badges were introduced.

Wearing a mask became (to certain groups) a symbol of Virtue and Piety "Look at how good we are for always wearing our Mask"
Whereas for others it became a point of rebellion "The Government cannot dictate to me what I should wear to enjoy my God-Given/Natural Rights"

In either case however, just like a certain star it became a way to separate the 'good' people with the 'bad' people.

This premise is to far outside of the situation being discussed. Trump aimed to rip off his supporters and did so. End of.

The last past is an assertion - one which you've made based on 2 bits of evidence: Automatic repeat billing and Multiple billing - Both of which have far less nefarious explanations.

Totally fair, you know what a mountain to climb producing a valid alternative to Twitter and fb would be. Trump does not have the tenacity or brains trust on hand to carry it out. Still born at best, HIGHLY unlikely to ever be released the likely outcome. Keep playing with the unicorns and fairies if you please.

There's really only 2 points to make here - the first is I remember when Yahoo and MySpace where the be-all and end-all of the internet

The second is the point out that people were saying the same thing about Trump in around 2015.... and look how that turned out...

None, so 1 vs 0. Not much to get excited about there.

Allow me for a moment to completely abuse statistics and sample sizes and say "100% support and approval for Trump" based on your data :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Yet when I asked you for quotes from any of the "squad" stating they hated America - crickets!

If you want a statement of 'I hate America' then sure, I can't produce that.

I can however produce multiple statements supporting causes that are fundamentally opposed to everything that America represents.

marxist, marxist, commie, commie, commie. Give me a break. Sure a dem or two may admire some marxist ideals. But turning the US into a marxist regime. Gimee a break., Go spent time in the US. Your so paranoid it is laughable.

It's not Paranoia.

Let me first agree with part of the statement - The average US Citizen doesn't want Marxism, Socialism or any form of Communism. A while ago Husa posted the meme that showed the county breakdown of voting preferences of Trump vs Biden - and you'll note that most of the counties voted for Trump but the most populace areas voting for Biden.

It's not just 'a dem or two' it's the Academic establishment (The Universities), it's the Activist organizations (BLM, Antifa).

If you look back 10-20 years ago when some of the more radical intersectionality stuff was starting to be disseminated into mainstream university courses - the idea then was that this was just silly nonsense that would stay in the University. The problem was that those people went out and got jobs and after working for that time period have gotten into positions with enough authority to influence senior management AND the people that report to them.

Let's put it another way - Go back 5 years (so before Trump) and ask yourself this - if I had said - 5 years ago - that a group of Communist activists would take over a part of a City, declare it seceded from the US - you'd have laughed at me harder than you laugh now.

If I further then said that not only would it happen, but that the authorities would allow it to continue to exist, instead of sending in the Police or even the NG to restore order - you'd have probably fallen on the floor in hysterics

If I then further said that this would happen despite multiple murders in that seceded area - you'd probably die from Laughing.

And yet it did happen.

There is a direct academic lineage from the French Communist philosophers of the 1960s who realised in 1970 that Communism was actually a really bad idea - so they did a little bait and switch - No longer the Proletariat and the Bourgeoisie, but now it's the Oppressed and the Oppressor. Same theory, same jealous malevolently murderous undertones - just a new coat of paint.

This was imported into the US via I believe Derrida as part of the Post-Modern movement, starting out as a form of literary critique. This way of thinking struck a cord with the other Marxist groups that existed on University (Such as the Feminist movement). From Post-Modernism, you get the notion of Oppressor and Oppressed (Blacks vs Whites or Men vs Women) and this lead to the development of Intersectional theory and Critical Race theory which started in the 1980s - and I'm not sure if you remember, but in the early 90s people were starting to complain about Political Correctness - then you had 2 things happen:

1: The internet - Suddenly there was something new for people to try and 'get rich' in, It's hard to convince someone they are oppressed when a new avenue of exploration just opens up and potentially anyone can make it big
2: September 11th - Nothing like a major terrorist attack to unite people against a common enemy.

But in the University, the courses in Critical theory, Feminism, Post-Modernism etc. (all with their Marxist influences and roots) were continuing to be taught. People were graduating and going out into the world with these ideas.

You started to see this in the Atheism vs Christianity debate in the mid 2000s - until the Schism of 'Elevator Gate' really started what has been termed 'The Culture War'.

When you see BLM holding up a Fist in protest or as their Emblem - that's Marxism.
When you hear someone talking about Equity, diversity and inclusivity - that's Marxism.
When you see these terms being propagated by Mainstream news outlets, Politicians, talking heads - that's Marxism.
When you see famous Movie, Video game or TV Franchised destroyed for the sake of 'Diversity' - that's Marxism.

At some point, you will realise that there has been a long and slow creep of these Marxist ideas into our culture. They are ideas that are diametrically opposed to the very way of life we have in the Anglo-West. They are European continental ideas that do not have any basis in the British Liberal Philosophical ideals that underpin NZ, Aus, UK, US etc.

That they are wrapped in such seemingly innocuous language that make the average person think 'well, that doesn't sound too bad' is what makes them even more insidious. When the Marxist activist says 'But surely, you want to see an Equal representation of Women, right?' it's very hard for the average person (who doesn't want to appear sexist) to say no.

When the correct response is "I don't care about equal representation, I only care to make sure the best and most suitable person is chosen".

Whether you believe it or not is up to you - however I'd say rather than take my word for it - go read the Academic literature on the subject - they are quite brazen and proud of their Marxist roots.

Or you can watch Yuri Bezmenov detail exactly how the USSR went about it's plans to infiltrate countries... in 1985 - then line-up what he says with what has been happening - it's borderline prophetic.

Or we can go all the way back to George Orwell who outlined the exact type of middle-class, university educated Socialists - and why such an idea appeals the Intellectual.

Yet when Trump says 'I like people who weren't captured' you strangely had nothing to say? Hypocrite.

It was a pretty Cunty thing to say, although if memory serves it was a direct jab at Senator McCain.

He still however has been a staunch supporter of the Military and the Military seem to be quite the supporters of Trump - so it can't have offended them that badly.

Unlikely it was strictly legal, entirely likely some officials were bribed. TDL "There are anomalies in the election and despite 50+ cases thrown out of court - the election was stolen!". Model who happens to be trumps then girlfriend now wife "somehow" gets a visa designed for ultra skilled experts in their field". All legit correct? Hypocrite.

Let me correct one part - I've never said it was Stolen, I've said I have doubts (which I consider reasonable) about the validity of the result - I've acknowledged that I cannot meet the burden of proof for a court that I can prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt' it was stolen.

Back to the Migration thing - if you are implying that she either bribed or flirted her way to Citizenship, I'm not going to entirely disagree with you - it's entirely possible, I mean you could argue she was ultra skilled in her field (even if I personally think that field is a farce, likely you feel much the same). The point is she still came through the front door with the correct paperwork.

So you are saying Trump was lying because he wanted to get closer to Germany? Wanted to distance himself from a mustache? :confused:

Wait, which way round did he say

Born in Germany, but said not born in Germany
or
Not born in Germany, but said born in Germany?

I took that as the first option?

Yet strangely you ignore all the other sides exact same behavior and lies. And you are right, I do not understand why the left make up lies about trump when there is such an unbelievably rich seam of lies that he has told!

You've almost arrived at the Ben Shapiro position on Trump.

Let me answer the accusation - if the media was honest in it's critiquing of Trump (and we both agree there is plenty to work with), then perhaps I'd be a little more strict on the other side.

The levels of lies and behavior though are IMO worlds apart at this point in time

I'm bemused and amused that Trump wears nappies. Many people are. It is human nature. Especially when the victim of bemusement in this case is such a public bully.
Trump is a pugnacious piece of shit that ultimately is the author of the ridicule he attracts.

Has anyone proved that he does or doesn't yet?

Now it is time to really drop a clanger.
With all these investigations into Trump, if they cannot pin anything on him despite having cretins like his ex lawyer cohen dishing the dirt - then I'm seriously wondering if he is as crooked as they say he is. With the knowledge cohen has, they should of been able to dig up the bodies right away, and lots of them.

Woah! You are literally inches away from arriving at my position.

If they still cannot pin anything on him and you accept that *maybe* he's not as bad as he was made out to be, then you might re-evaluate the optics by which you viewed his actions.

However, I still feel he should be thrown in jail for killing thousands with his virus lies alone. But I would upgrade him from I would not piss on him if he was on fire to I would piss on him, just not necessarily the parts of him that are on fire.

Well, babysteps in the right direction....

Having said all that, I also wonder if the real powers that be do have all the evidence they need, but are hesitant to seriously punish him as that would require them to acknowledge that their system is hopelessly corrupt beyond repair. Which if course it is, because both sides are hopelessly compromised and corrupt to their very core.

I'm not sure I would say corrupt beyond repair. There's always going to be corrupt actors in any system and every system will have inherent flaws. The fact that Trump got elected IMO is proof that the system isn't that corrupt (although I could be a real dick here and say 'well, if it's corrupt beyond repair, then that surely would include being able to rig an election') - Trump was very much so an anomoly, that no one in the various 'power structures' wanted.

You are so obsessed with commies taking over the us, but the real danger is another certain country is on what I consider to be a near unstoppable roll. On it's current trajectory, the US will not be a super power at all within a decade, and the "other country" will be in control. That scares me. The "other" country is supposed to be communist, but from what I can make out - is capitalist with a dictatorship at the top. America is fucked, I wish it wasn't I sincerely do - but it is.

Sure, China is a big problem. China is the logical result of Communism - a Fascist dictatorship (all the Fascists were former Marxists...) There may be a degree of 'free enterprise' - but with the CCP holding a controlling stake.

I'm not sure if you've seen the Memes recently - comparing the latest US Army recruitment Ads vs the Russian and the Chinese ones.

The US ones are dripping with all the Marxist pandering that I'm talking about (diversity, inclusion, equity blah blah blah) whereas both the Russian and Chinese ones are all Tough Men doing Tough Men things, saluting the flag in uniform and charging over the top in a hail of Gunfire.

For reference:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Rr6Uu2C4Y

I mean, I don't speak Russian or Chinese - but Goddamn do both of those adverts get my blood pumping! and then we get to the US...

Does the US advert make you want to sign up to fight, kill and die for what you believe in? Does it extol the virtues and strength of the US? Does it give off the message 'We will do what is necessary to protect Freedom, no matter the cost?'

You are right in many ways, America is being Fucked...

but it's being Fucked from within.

TheDemonLord

9th June 2021, 12:43

https://youtu.be/fHMoDt3nSHs

On a side note - Steve Hughes in the Man, I've seen him live - funny as fuck - and like all great comedians, there's some stinging nuggets of truth in his Jokes.

F5 Dave

9th June 2021, 13:27

TheDemonLord

9th June 2021, 14:05

So. . . Why didn't that all happen (tdl is on ignore so we'll ignore that post) when Clarke was in power for like 4 centuries?

I mean, you ask why it didn't happen and then state you're ignoring a post where I outline why it didn't happen...

Willful blindness is unbecoming.

You also have to look at the political mileu of the late 90s early 2000s in the UK and NZ - you had New Labour under Blair - whose rhetorhic was (paraphrased) 'We are no longer Socialists'

In hindsight, there were echoes and hints as to what was to come, but not at the time - much the same with Clarke and her Government.

Let's do some other fearmongery for comparison. What happens when national regroup and wearing brown shirts march and overtake all governance? Extermination of all minority groups and all sorts of other bullshit while we invoke Hitler in late 1990s Internet rhetoric?

You mean like wearing Black Block, fantasizing about killing white people, targeting Asians, secede locations from the State?

Already happening, just not from the Right Wing.

And here's your daily reminder that all the Brown Shirts were former Socialists:

National Socialism is a form of Socialism, is emphatically revolutionary, does crush the property owner as surely as it crushes the worker. The two regimes, having started from opposite ends, are rapidly evolving towards the same system—a form of oligarchical collectivism

- George Orwell.

Well what are you going to do then? Huh? Huh?

Stand upon the British Liberal values that have triumphed (eventually) over every attack by Marxist derived ideas, forces and groups.

R650R

9th June 2021, 15:20

So. . . Why didn't that all happen (tdl is on ignore so we'll ignore that post) when Clarke was in power for like 4 centuries?

Let's do some other fearmongery for comparison. What happens when national regroup and wearing brown shirts march and overtake all governance? Extermination of all minority groups and all sorts of other bullshit while we invoke Hitler in late 1990s Internet rhetoric?

Well what are you going to do then? Huh? Huh?

Your forgetting capitalism needs the poor people for the lower paid jobs so there will be no extermination.
Even a far more right wing govt than we’ve ever had would be better than the status quo. Our current govt excells at propaganda and rewarding failure.

R650R

9th June 2021, 15:34

That army recruitment ad is such a great metaphor for the failings of left identity politics.

It’s funny they trying to portray her decision a successful outcome from having “ two moms” ( hey where’s daddy? That sperm came from somewhere) but back it up, she’s obviously studied well but can’t find a decent job or “ her place” in society!!’
So she joins the army which is typically the last choice career in USA for mainly low educated black and some white men. And then it’s only a button pusher on a patriot battery which will likely never see service unless they do a rotation through the promised land in Israel on “exercise”....

I guess if all your doing is beating up third world nations you don’t need traditional soldier characteristics where as Russia and China both face real threats from equal or greater foes.

It’s kinda odd that given all services are having trouble attracting candidates that they should advertise to recruit from perhaps the smallest minority in society. Guess we’ll see results in Operation Raining Equality when they go to war with Iran in 2025

F5 Dave

9th June 2021, 19:25

Have you considered immigrating? You're clearly unhappy here.

Laava

9th June 2021, 21:49

Have you considered immigrating? You're clearly unhappy here.
I've heard Mar a Lago is nice this time of year?

pritch

10th June 2021, 09:14

The greatest offence is yet to come once the commies finish their takeover and suspend elections....

That won't be the 'commies', they're apparently hiding under your bed. The Republican controlled states are working on that right now. Well, they might have elections but only Republicans can win. Some famous person in the USA said something to the effect, when fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. And so it is

TheDemonLord

10th June 2021, 09:32

That won't be the 'commies', they're apparently hiding under your bed. The Republican controlled states are working on that right now. Well, they might have elections but only Republicans can win. Some famous person in the USA said something to the effect, when fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. And so it is

You sure about that?

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Dr.+Aruna+Khilanani

I mean - she still has a Facebook, Yale university has only 'restricted access to the lecture' (Not removed it, not deleted it, not Fired her, not launched an investigation into how such an obvious racist could be allowed to advocate for Genocide).

And just for reference (in case you don't wish to review the info) here's just one of the things she said:

I had fantasies of unloading a revolver into the head of any white person that got in my way, burying their body, and wiping my bloody hands as I walked away relatively guiltless with a bounce in my step. Like I did the world a fucking favour

I will make just 2 points here - the first is the Killing of Jay Bishop, by Communist Revolutionaries (AKA Antifa) - The way she describes her fantasy is almost identical to the way that Jay was Murdered.

The second is if you replace the word 'White' with say 'Black' or 'Jew' or 'Muslim' or 'Gay' - Do you think Yale would even have allowed them to speak? Do you think they would still have a Facebook account? Do you think their work would still be accessible?

And again, your historical Reminder - all the Fascists of the 1930s were former Marxists/Socialists.

pritch

10th June 2021, 11:22

It’s kinda odd that given all services are having trouble attracting candidates that they should advertise to recruit from perhaps the smallest minority in society. Guess we’ll see results in Operation Raining Equality when they go to war with Iran in 2025

The British Army spent up large on a campaign to recruit minorities. It was a spectacular failure. The Army is hard work, it can be dangerous, and the pay is crap.
The minorities may be brown but they're not stupid.

TheDemonLord

10th June 2021, 11:29

The British Army spent up large on a campaign to recruit minorities. It was a spectacular failure. The Army is hard work, it can be dangerous, and the pay is crap.
The minorities may be brown but they're not stupid.

It's almost like the ad is being made to satisfy an Ideological agenda around Diversity, inclusion and Equity - as opposed to recruiting new Soldiers....

Just more Marxist infiltration...

sugilite

10th June 2021, 12:31

It's almost like the ad is being made to satisfy an Ideological agenda around Diversity, inclusion and Equity - as opposed to recruiting new Soldiers....

Just more Marxist infiltration...
You have any similar armed forces recruitment photos generated by any marxist regimes to back your assertion?

TheDemonLord

10th June 2021, 12:45

You have any similar armed forces recruitment photos generated by any marxist regimes to back your assertion?

Why would they want to weaken their own forces?

I again point to Yuri Bezmenov - They (the senior KGB Officials) in the 80s actively despised the Marxist revolutionaries that they were training up - as soon as they had fulfilled their purpose - they were gone (that is, lined up against the wall and shot) - once the new totalitarian regime is in place, it's business as usual.

sugilite

10th June 2021, 13:15

Given what Trump forwent to become the PoTUS, I don't think the claim Trump is for Trump can be argued. Even if I accept your next statement that he made policy based on a Gut-Feel - Is that necessarily a bad thing?

The tax drop NYT did highlighted that companies Trump invested in but had no control over did well, companies he had a direct hand in very often went bankrupt. Trumps gut is meh.

It's one area where we have some very definitive data that Trump did what he set out to do, It's also one area where we see the most amount of Apologia 'Inherited from Obama' - which is the part that I enjoy fighting on because it shows a level of disconnect.
He inherited Obamacare, said it was a top priority to get rid of it - he failed. He failed to give an alternative too. That is just one example of what Trump failed to do. Off with the rose tinted glasses eh.

There's a reason I chose that as a comparison. You rightly point out that they are worlds apart - but you do so only because of what happened after the badges were introduced.

Wearing a mask became (to certain groups) a symbol of Virtue and Piety "Look at how good we are for always wearing our Mask"
Whereas for others it became a point of rebellion "The Government cannot dictate to me what I should wear to enjoy my God-Given/Natural Rights"

In either case however, just like a certain star it became a way to separate the 'good' people with the 'bad' people.
Your own hero was the main person that set up that scenario. Your premise is complete shit in this matter.
When a pandemic hits, sacrifices need to be made. Wearing a mask was always a medical necessity. Dickface Trump and his minions were the ones that politicized it and they killed thousands needlessly to do it. Sickening. Your premise is about as bad taste as could possibly be.

The last past is an assertion - one which you've made based on 2 bits of evidence: Automatic repeat billing and Multiple billing - Both of which have far less nefarious explanations.
You would have us believe because nefarious other companies that are in the questionable services business do it, so it is ok for Trump to rip off his supporters. Classic TDL right there.

There's really only 2 points to make here - the first is I remember when Yahoo and MySpace where the be-all and end-all of the internet

The second is the point out that people were saying the same thing about Trump in around 2015.... and look how that turned out...
The first two companies I did not involve myself in, but strangely the internet still worked for me, and your second premise is completely unrelated to building a viable social network - face it you got nothing in this one.

Allow me for a moment to completely abuse statistics and sample sizes and say "100% support and approval for Trump" based on your data :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Gosh, never saw that coming :msn-wink:

If you want a statement of 'I hate America' then sure, I can't produce that.

I can however produce multiple statements supporting causes that are fundamentally opposed to everything that America represents.
"Everything" huh.

It's not Paranoia.
BLM is a travesty really, the black people have genuine grievances and face racism daily, I seen it first hand. It started out with the right intentions, then yes, the wrong people were controlling it. 4 investment properties for the leader I see. As mentioned - a travesty. No good cause seems to have a chance because humans are so inherently corruptible and greedy.
Antifa activities are on decline, or are barely reported now, either way they like trump are becoming less influential.

It was a pretty Cunty thing to say, although if memory serves it was a direct jab at Senator McCain.
It was, but reflected poorly on all POW's. Coming from a serial draft dodger is particularly sickening.

Back to the Migration thing - if you are implying that she either bribed or flirted her way to Citizenship, I'm not going to entirely disagree with you - it's entirely possible, I mean you could argue she was ultra skilled in her field (even if I personally think that field is a farce, likely you feel much the same). The point is she still came through the front door with the correct paperwork.
What is the bet she is the only model that got in on that visa. Sure she came through the door with the correct paperwork, but getting that paperwork is highly unlikely to have been done within the rules. I'm sure you know that and just want to argue.

Wait, which way round did he say

Born in Germany, but said not born in Germany
or
Not born in Germany, but said born in Germany?

I took that as the first option?
He stated his father was born in germany. Even fox questioned why on earth did he tell that lie when he did not need too.

You've almost arrived at the Ben Shapiro position on Trump.

Let me answer the accusation - if the media was honest in it's critiquing of Trump (and we both agree there is plenty to work with), then perhaps I'd be a little more strict on the other side.

The levels of lies and behavior though are IMO worlds apart at this point in time
The level of lies from both sides is totally comparable. Back to the bottom of the garden to play with the fairies for you.

Woah! You are literally inches away from arriving at my position.

If they still cannot pin anything on him and you accept that *maybe* he's not as bad as he was made out to be, then you might re-evaluate the optics by which you viewed his actions.

Well no, because believe it or not, I formed my opinion on Trump from his television interviews and tweets. As they are unfiltered Trump. That is what I looked too. Just because he triggers the left and makes out he follows conservative policies does not cut him one bit of slack in my book.
Judging directly from his own words I can see he is a racist, bigoted, woman abusing piece of shit.

I'm not sure I would say corrupt beyond repair. There's always going to be corrupt actors in any system and every system will have inherent flaws. The fact that Trump got elected IMO is proof that the system isn't that corrupt (although I could be a real dick here and say 'well, if it's corrupt beyond repair, then that surely would include being able to rig an election') - Trump was very much so an anomoly, that no one in the various 'power structures' wanted.
Because both sides of the political spectrum's despicable corruption, they have a absolutely massive amount of the population viewing any given situation with either a blue or a red lends. This will ensure they keep going down the road to destruction. There is no turning back when people have no longer have any desire to do so. They sowed the seeds of their destruction and from what I can make out, that other country is coming into harvest the lot of them. Unfortunately. But as per below, you too already know this.

You are right in many ways, America is being Fucked...

but it's being Fucked from within.

sugilite

10th June 2021, 13:20

Why would they want to weaken their own forces?

I again point to Yuri Bezmenov - They (the senior KGB Officials) in the 80s actively despised the Marxist revolutionaries that they were training up - as soon as they had fulfilled their purpose - they were gone (that is, lined up against the wall and shot) - once the new totalitarian regime is in place, it's business as usual.
So why attribute "marxist" values to the american advert? duh
I'm not sure that a marxist or communist regime ever existed following the actual doctrine, was always totalitarian yes?
Every single political ideal is flawed because humans are incapable of following one to the letter. Corruption and greed wins the day every time.

TheDemonLord

10th June 2021, 14:10

The tax drop NYT did highlighted that companies Trump invested in but had no control over did well, companies he had a direct hand in very often went bankrupt. Trumps gut is meh.

Ah yes, because the NYT has never been deceptive or misleading on Trump...

But even taken at face value - His gut clearly must be better than chance if his investments are doing well...

He inherited Obamacare, said it was a top priority to get rid of it - he failed. He failed to give an alternative too. That is just one example of what Trump failed to do. Off with the rose tinted glasses eh.

If memory serves, that was more to do with challenges at the Supreme Court than anything else. That said, I've been clear that IMO Socialized Healthcare is to the public benefit (despite knowing many people who work in that field and could list off a litany of issues that it being a public service causes)

Your own hero was the main person that set up that scenario. Your premise is complete shit in this matter.
Wearing a mask was always a medical necessity. Dickface Trump and his minions were the ones that politicized it and they killed thousands needlessly to do it. Sickening. Your premise is about as bad taste as could possibly be.

Excuse the splitting of your statement - but I feel it's easier to address this way.

On the subject of masks - I'm going to use that most right-wing of sources: CNN

https://edition.cnn.com/factsfirst/politics/factcheck_e58c20c6-8735-4022-a1f5-1580bc732c45

You have the initial position of 'don't wear masks' to the subsequent position of 'Wear a mask', One side took to wearing a mask as a symbol of virtue, the other side merely didn't want Government Mandates telling them what they can and can't do or what they must do to enjoy their god-given/natural rights.

When a pandemic hits, sacrifices need to be made.

And the question then becomes - What sacrifices? My position has always been on the side of Freedom.

Of course, others may see it differently. And that Position isn't absolute either - however I still stand by my stance that for a disease that has just over a 2% mortality rate, there has been a large over-reaction towards the general population.

And when I say General Population - that means that the people in the at-risk groups should absolutely have measures taken to protect them.

You would have us believe because nefarious other companies that are in the questionable services business do it, so it is ok for Trump to rip off his supporters. Classic TDL right there.

Not sure I'd call most of them Nefarious, just stating it's a common business practice (even if it's a shitty one) and as a common practice, not something you can use to rebuke Trump.

The first two companies I did not involve myself in, but strangely the internet still worked for me, and your second premise is completely unrelated to building a viable social network - face it you got nothing in this one.

Well, I referenced them because they were both the undisputed kings of their respect market fields, before being usurped.

As for the second point - it's merely an observation that the same criticisms were being made then as now.

"Everything" huh.

The US is based on the British liberal tradition of the Individual.
It is directly opposed to any collectivist ideologies.

When I say Everything - I mean at the very bottom of the foundation of the US is a set of ideas, everything that the US is, was and will be, is built upon those ideas.

Those ideas are centered around the Individual. That there is something immutable about the Individual, that they are born with certain rights (Natural/God-given) and that these are not granted by the State but are imbued upon that individual by their very existence.

Everything stems from that idea.
And Marxism because of it's collectivist notions, the continental view that Rights aren't inherent to the individual, but granted by the State (and there's a hint as to why it always ends badly - if a Right is granted by the State, it can be revoked by the State) etc. is opposed to that very foundation that everything is built on.

So yes, Everything.

BLM is a travesty really, the black people have genuine grievances and face racism daily, I seen it first hand. It started out with the right intentions, then yes, the wrong people were controlling it. 4 investment properties for the leader I see. As mentioned - a travesty. No good cause seems to have a chance because humans are so inherently corruptible and greedy.
Antifa activities are on decline, or are barely reported now, either way they like trump are becoming less influential.

Right intentions is debatable, since the founders were 'Trained Marxists' - they followed the playbook to the letter, I don't see that as a Travesty, I see that as the logical conclusion. If people don't read their history and recognize the signs and the rhetoric - then that's their own silly fault.

It seems harsh when I can agree that there are and will be individual cases of Racism - these are abhorrent and we should identify the individuals responsible and see that Justice is done.

As for Antifa - One might say the Useful idiots have served their purpose....

It was, but reflected poorly on all POW's. Coming from a serial draft dodger is particularly sickening.

It did - but I think the POWs had enough sense to know who it was and who it wasn't aimed at - hence why most of them still support Trump.

What is the bet she is the only model that got in on that visa. Sure she came through the door with the correct paperwork, but getting that paperwork is highly unlikely to have been done within the rules. I'm sure you know that and just want to argue.

I'm not disagreeing about the possibility she might have had a helping hand - it's plausible. I personally don't follow fashion models closely enough to know when they emigrate, by what Visa they gain entry - my only point is - she went through the process and got her Visa legally - and I've not problem with that.

He stated his father was born in germany. Even fox questioned why on earth did he tell that lie when he did not need too.

Oof, my Bad - I dunno then.

The level of lies from both sides is totally comparable. Back to the bottom of the garden to play with the fairies for you.

Disagree - when Fox can get the FBI to run a multiple year investigation on bogus charges, then perhaps we can say they are comparable...

Well no, because believe it or not, I formed my opinion on Trump from his television interviews and tweets. As they are unfiltered Trump. That is what I looked too. Just because he triggers the left and makes out he follows conservative policies does not cut him one bit of slack in my book.
Judging directly from his own words I can see he is a racist, bigoted, woman abusing piece of shit.

So I have to ask - what Quotes (in full) can you provide that show he's Racist? Or that he's Bigoted? Or that he's a Woman Abuser? I can think of some quotes that claim this - but when given in full, it's clear that he's not.

Because both sides of the political spectrum's despicable corruption, they have a absolutely massive amount of the population viewing any given situation with either a blue or a red lends. This will ensure they keep going down the road to destruction. There is no turning back when people have no longer have any desire to do so. They sowed the seeds of their destruction and from what I can make out, that other country is coming into harvest the lot of them. Unfortunately. But as per below, you too already know this.

I wouldn't say Corruption, per se.

It's the failure of the Right to properly deal to the creeping Marxism.
It's the failure of the Left to allow itself to drift towards Marxism.

On the surface, a lot of the initial calls from the far-left seem reasonable and it's hard to counter them with a solid Conservative position.

TheDemonLord

10th June 2021, 14:18

So why attribute "marxist" values to the american advert? duh

Because it's being made under the Auspices of Diversity, Inclusion and Equity - which are Marxist ideals.

Not Liberal ideals.

The Liberal position looks upon the 100m sprint and does not care that all of the sprinters appear to be of African decent - the Liberal only asks 'Are these the faster Sprinters?'

Whereas the Marxist position holds that there should be equity - that all people should be represented in all things and so breaks the rules in order to achieve that goal.

I'm not sure that a marxist or communist regime ever existed following the actual doctrine, was always totalitarian yes?

'But that wasn't REAL Communism'

In terms of what Marx's theory was - no, they never got to that state.
In terms of the logical conclusion borne out of the fundamental flaws of Marx's Theory - Yes, they all followed it to the letter which is why they all ended up the same way.

Every single political ideal is flawed because humans are incapable of following one to the letter. Corruption and greed wins the day every time.

So you build the system that accepts that Humans are greedy and so asks them 'If you want to get rich, you have to do things for other people that make them want to give you Resources' - then the Individual is free to decide the level of effort they are willing to input in order to get what they desire.

You can also add in that the more useful to other people the thing you do is, the more resources you can trade for what it is you are doing.

Add in a few laws to protect property rights and viola!

Capitalism.

A system which accepts Humans for what they are and self-motivates them to do things for their peers in order that everyone prospers.

pritch

10th June 2021, 14:20

So why attribute "marxist" values to the american advert? duh
I'm not sure that a marxist or communist regime ever existed following the actual doctrine, was always totalitarian yes?

Poor TDL, he tosses terms like Marxist or critical race theory around with literally no clue what he's referring to. BLM is another. The Black Lives Matter movement started in reaction to police killings of unarmed black men. Sometime later three women, one of whom claimed to be Marxist, registered the name Black Lives Matter. (It's a nice little earner.) So the RWNJs claim BLM is Marxist. Complete nonsense of course.

Antifa is another. Antifa does not exist as such. It's an idea not an organisation. As proved by the FBI under Barr declaring it a terrorist organisation and seeking to arrest them. Naturally there were no arrests. It may come as news to the FBI, but you can't arrest an idea.

The amusement value in all of this has gone, it's just sad now.

FJRider

10th June 2021, 16:21

You have any similar armed forces recruitment photos generated by any marxist regimes to back your assertion?

The Marxist regimes have no need to advertise for military recruitment. They just come and get you.

FJRider

10th June 2021, 18:14

Because it's being made under the Auspices of Diversity, Inclusion and Equity - which are Marxist ideals.

Not Liberal ideals.

BULLSHIT .. !!

Diversity is perceived to be about perspective ... representation ... tough talking ... and supporting inclusion.

Inclusion prompts answers about creating environments conducive to getting good feedback ... and to support the diversity of all it's citizens.

Equity was described as fairness, sameness, and valuing diversity and inclusion.

To define Marxism in simple terms to a simple person (not mentioning any names) it is just a political and economic theory where a society has no classes. Every person within the society works for a common good ... and class struggle is (theoretically) gone.

In reality ... some are just more equal than others ...

The Liberal position looks upon the 100m sprint and does not care that all of the sprinters appear to be of African decent - the Liberal only asks 'Are these the faster Sprinters?'

Liberals generally support free markets ... free trade and limited government intervention. Along with individual rights (including civil rights and human rights) / capitalism / democracy / secularism / gender and racial equality and international business and trade. No questions asked. And the "Faster sprinters" don't always get to run ... they have to get noticed first. (The squeaky wheel gets the oil)

Whereas the Marxist position holds that there should be equity - that all people should be represented in all things and so breaks the rules in order to achieve that goal.

The definition of equity in Aotearoa New Zealand is ... people have differences in health that are not only avoidable but unfair and unjust. But in reality ... that is often the way it is in life. Popular opinion is ... if it's "Not my fault" ... action or change must be made. Equity recognizes different people with different levels of advantage ... require different approaches (and resources) to get acceptable health outcomes. With the Marxist position ... ALL are equal. There are NO citizens with advantage over other citizens (well .. not in theory anyway).

The World Health Organization defines equity as the absence of avoidable or remediable differences among groups of people. But is this (in reality) actually happening .. ?? When Capitalism rears it's ugly head ... those with more money have more advantages.

'But that wasn't REAL Communism'

In terms of what Marx's theory was - no, they never got to that state.
In terms of the logical conclusion borne out of the fundamental flaws of Marx's Theory - Yes, they all followed it to the letter which is why they all ended up the same way.

They didn't "Follow it to the letter" ... which is why it ended up the way it did. "Animal Farm" in real life. Rules are adjusted to suit the current policy issues ... and agenda. All are equal ... just some more equal than others.

So you build the system that accepts that Humans are greedy and so asks them 'If you want to get rich, you have to do things for other people that make them want to give you Resources' - then the Individual is free to decide the level of effort they are willing to input in order to get what they desire.

Create a system that any fool can use ... and only fools will use it. To get rich ... you produce/provide an item or service that is cheaper and/or easier than others could produce or provide for themselves ... if they could actually be bothered to make the effort.

The lazier the general population is ... the more chances there are to make money. For example ... see how many people are happy to come to your place and clean your car for you. Just one service that is no longer used just by the wealthy. The lazy are the base profile of the customer in many industries.

You can also add in that the more useful to other people the thing you do is, the more resources you can trade for what it is you are doing.

Add in a few laws to protect property rights and viola!

The current Patent laws should suffice ...

Capitalism.

A system which accepts Humans for what they are and self-motivates them to do things for their peers in order that everyone prospers.

Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. Rather than being controlled by the state. Is New Zealand really in "an era of free-market capitalism" ... ???

To me its more like those working have to pay more to fund those NOT working ... so those not working can have the benefit (excuse the pun) of the moderate wealth those working have.

Hardly a capitalist society in my opinion.

husaberg

10th June 2021, 19:36

after Charlotville.

Reporter: "Nazis were there."

Reporter: "David Duke was there."

Trump: "I didnÂ’t know David Duke was there.
....
Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --"

Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didnÂ’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."

Reporter: "George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same." The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.

Trump"But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest -- because, I donÂ’t know if you know, they had a permit.

Reporter: "How concerned are you about race relations in America? And do you think things have gotten worse or better since you took office?"
Trump: "I think they’ve gotten better or the same. Look, they’ve been prayed for a long time. And you can ask President Obama about that, because he’d make speeches about it. But I believe that the fact that I brought in -- it will be soon -- millions of jobs -- you see where companies are moving back into our country -- I think that’s going to have a tremendous, positive impact on race relations.

sugilite

11th June 2021, 09:01

But even taken at face value - His gut clearly must be better than chance if his investments are doing well...
pretty much just the ones he did not have hands on day to day management.
Which explains with all the tv watching and golfing he did, the economy was allowed to continue on it's upwards trajectory eh :bleh:

If memory serves, that was more to do with challenges at the Supreme Court than anything else. That said, I've been clear that IMO Socialized Healthcare is to the public benefit (despite knowing many people who work in that field and could list off a litany of issues that it being a public service causes)
I accept your deafening silence on his never seen replacement for obamacare that Trump completely failed on health reform.

You have the initial position of 'don't wear masks' to the subsequent position of 'Wear a mask', One side took to wearing a mask as a symbol of virtue, the other side merely didn't want Government Mandates telling them what they can and can't do or what they must do to enjoy their god-given/natural rights.

And the question then becomes - What sacrifices? My position has always been on the side of Freedom.

What sacrifices are actually made whilst wearing a mask? Take off your stupid red/blue lens. I propose one group wore a mask because it was the right thing to do to reduce death and misery. The large proportion of non mask wearers were sucked in by a narcissist who does not care one fuck if people die in his successful effort to forge division within the people he swore to protect.

Not sure I'd call most of them Nefarious, just stating it's a common business practice (even if it's a shitty one) and as a common practice, not something you can use to rebuke Trump.

I accept your acknowledgement that Trump indulges in shitty business practices in order to rip of his supporters. At last - thank you.

Well, I referenced them because they were both the undisputed kings of their respect market fields, before being usurped.

As for the second point - it's merely an observation that the same criticisms were being made then as now.

Yes, these companies were titans of their time sure, Trump has released a blog so poorly received he pulled it. Hardly comparable.

a lot of marxist malarkey - as it turns out
As I have admitted before, my grasp of political ideologies is limited at best, so I was taking your words at face value, but after reading fj's responses, I realize your grasp is not that flash either.

It did - but I think the POWs had enough sense to know who it was and who it wasn't aimed at - hence why most of them still support Trump.
It certainly killed Trump that said ex pow killed his kill obamacare act lol
I'm quite sure most ex pows did not support trumps statements or indeed trump.
The existing troops probably liked trump because rather than send them to war, trump just indulged in killing foreign mean tweeters instead :rolleyes:

I'm not disagreeing about the possibility she might have had a helping hand - it's plausible. I personally don't follow fashion models closely enough to know when they emigrate, by what Visa they gain entry - my only point is - she went through the process and got her Visa legally - and I've not problem with that.
If you don't have a problem with clear abuse of process to get an outcome that clearly went against the premise of that documents design purpose, then stop crying when dems do the same :laugh:

Oof, my Bad - I dunno then.

Well you are in good company in that regard.

Disagree - when Fox can get the FBI to run a multiple year investigation on bogus charges, then perhaps we can say they are comparable...
You mean the investigation that led to multiple arrests and jailings for many involved, 10 counts of obstruction. That investigation?

So I have to ask - what Quotes (in full) can you provide that show he's Racist? Or that he's Bigoted? Or that he's a Woman Abuser? I can think of some quotes that claim this - but when given in full, it's clear that he's not.
I would love to, but unfortunately your guy got banned for inciting violence. I'm sure they did not want to ban a chief income earner but he was so bad - they had too. Yep, the president of the usa was so toxic he had to be banned!Anyways, just on woman abuse, take your pick below. Though I'm sure you could come up with 61 piles of bullshit as a response to each quote :rolleyes:
https://theweek.com/articles/655770/61-things-donald-trump-said-about-women

I wouldn't say Corruption, per se.

It's the failure of the Right to properly deal to the creeping Marxism.
It's the failure of the Left to allow itself to drift towards Marxism.

So your framing of this is all of americas corruption can be laid at the feet of dastardly marxists :laugh:

So you build the system that accepts that Humans are greedy and so asks them 'If you want to get rich, you have to do things for other people that make them want to give you Resources' - then the Individual is free to decide the level of effort they are willing to input in order to get what they desire.

You can also add in that the more useful to other people the thing you do is, the more resources you can trade for what it is you are doing.

Add in a few laws to protect property rights and viola!

Capitalism.

A system which accepts Humans for what they are and self-motivates them to do things for their peers in order that everyone prospers.
and a system that is well in the process of creating a planet that will be too toxic for humans to live on due to unchecked greed and corruption.

TheDemonLord

11th June 2021, 10:49

Poor TDL, he tosses terms like Marxist or critical race theory around with literally no clue what he's referring to.

That's a bold statement - care to actually back it up? Go on, I dare you. You've asserted I have no clue as to what I'm referring to, so it should be exceptionally easy to prove me wrong...

BLM is another. The Black Lives Matter movement started in reaction to police killings of unarmed black men. Sometime later three women, one of whom claimed to be Marxist, registered the name Black Lives Matter. (It's a nice little earner.) So the RWNJs claim BLM is Marxist. Complete nonsense of course.

Right.

You are objectively wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrisse_Cullors

Created the Hashtag 'BlacklivesMatter' on Twitter as a response to the acquittal of George Zimmerman (not Police Killings of Unarmed Black Men initially). She created based on the Facebook post of

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Garza

Then a 3rd woman joined with them to register the name.

Now for the Marxist stuff.

First let's compare the Symbol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raised_fist

It's the Socialist Fist with communist roots dating back to the 1910s

Then let's look at the now deleted statement from the BLM Website: "We aim to deconstruct the Western white supremacist, capitalist, patriarchy." (key points are the Western, Capitalist and Patriarchal part)

Then let's look at the founders statements - first the explicit 'we are trained Marxists' but also other statements such as:

Cullors weaves her intellectual influences into this narrative, from black feminist writers like Audre Lorde and bell hooks, to Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and Mao Zedong. Reading those social philosophers “provided a new understanding around what our economies could look like,”

I mean - when the Founders say they are Marxists, they adopt the Marxist symbols, cite Lenin, Mao and Marx as inspiration, call for the deconstruction of the Western Capitalist system - what more evidence do you need to prove they are Marxist?

Antifa is another. Antifa does not exist as such. It's an idea not an organisation. As proved by the FBI under Barr declaring it a terrorist organisation and seeking to arrest them. Naturally there were no arrests. It may come as news to the FBI, but you can't arrest an idea.

Apparently, according to Pritch, this doesn't exist:

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=antifa

Yet there are Websites, iconography, People wearing the iconography, Protesters waving the Flag, Local Chapters with Facebook pages etc. etc.

I mean, just because it's decentralised with no formal (or formally understood) command structure, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This is just willful, head-in-the-sand ignorance of the highest levels

pritch

11th June 2021, 11:21

What sacrifices are actually made whilst wearing a mask? Take off your stupid red/blue lens. I propose one group wore a mask because it was the right thing to do to reduce death and misery. The large proportion of non mask wearers were sucked in by a narcissist who does not care one fuck if people die in his successful effort to forge division within the people he swore to protect.

RWNJs in this country crowed about the Health Dept changing their mask policy as if it was inconsistent. Initially the government didn't want the public buying up the country's supply of masks leaving none for front line workers. We saw what the public did with shit house paper so the concern was justified. When the stocks were up, and so was the risk, masks were to be worn. Simple, but still too difficult for some.

A large proportion of the US population are unable to distinguish fact from fallacy. Currently one in five believe Trump will be reinstated as president. There is no mechanism for such an event short of armed takeover. That has been actually suggested by some Trumpist loonies. Hopefully sanity will prevail but I wouldn't bet on it.

TheDemonLord

11th June 2021, 11:27

BULLSHIT .. !!

Diversity is perceived to be about perspective ... representation ... tough talking ... and supporting inclusion.

Inclusion prompts answers about creating environments conducive to getting good feedback ... and to support the diversity of all it's citizens.

Equity was described as fairness, sameness, and valuing diversity and inclusion.

To define Marxism in simple terms to a simple person (not mentioning any names) it is just a political and economic theory where a society has no classes. Every person within the society works for a common good ... and class struggle is (theoretically) gone.

In reality ... some are just more equal than others ...

You can bullshit all you want - the problem is that implicit in what you've described as Marxism, contains the Theory that lead to the desire of diversity, inclusion and equity - you inadvertently prove my point.

If we are all equal, in a perfect Communist utopia, then there is no reason why we wouldn't have perfect representation at all levels, because we would all be equal.

However, people just on their fundamental physical attributes, are not equal. Some are Tall, Some are short, Some have denser Bones, some have larger Lung Capacity, Some have high concentration of fast twitch Muscles etc.

Liberals generally support free markets ... free trade and limited government intervention. Along with individual rights (including civil rights and human rights) / capitalism / democracy / secularism / gender and racial equality and international business and trade. No questions asked. And the "Faster sprinters" don't always get to run ... they have to get noticed first. (The squeaky wheel gets the oil)

The Liberal concerns themselves with making sure the process is fair and unbiased (or at least as fair and unbiased as possible - because reality is always a factor) - which is where the support for Free Markets (no barriers to entry, no artificial government regulation) comes from.

In terms of the Fastest Sprinter - sure, the process for selection in any arena has discrepancies, but when you run the same process over hundreds of thousands of time and get the same result - all the top guys are of African Descent - to the Liberal, this isn't an issue - the process is fair - you run 100m and the fastest person wins.

To the Marxist, however, since everyone is equal, there should be an equal distribution of top sprinters when compared to the population make up: x% of White people, x% of Black people etc.

The definition of equity in Aotearoa New Zealand is ... people have differences in health that are not only avoidable but unfair and unjust. But in reality ... that is often the way it is in life. Popular opinion is ... if it's "Not my fault" ... action or change must be made. Equity recognizes different people with different levels of advantage ... require different approaches (and resources) to get acceptable health outcomes. With the Marxist position ... ALL are equal. There are NO citizens with advantage over other citizens (well .. not in theory anyway).

The first part sounds like "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"....

The Collectivist argument goes something like 'You are of xxxxxx descent, therefore you are likely to have Y health needs' - now, to give the Devil their Due, certain ethnic groups do have certain risk factors due to genetic traits and so even from a Liberal position (which would generally favour an individual view) this has a valid reason.

The World Health Organization defines equity as the absence of avoidable or remediable differences among groups of people. But is this (in reality) actually happening .. ?? When Capitalism rears it's ugly head ... those with more money have more advantages.

Sure, but again - the Liberal position is that there is Equality of Opportunity - If Me and Bill Gates both end up at Hospital at the same time - The Liberal position is that we are both treated as individuals

Of course the critique is that Bill gates has the money to pay for Private care and so doesn't have to wait and can afford to see specialists etc. but that's outside the scope of the discussion

They didn't "Follow it to the letter" ... which is why it ended up the way it did. "Animal Farm" in real life. Rules are adjusted to suit the current policy issues ... and agenda. All are equal ... just some more equal than others.

It can never end in any other way. The fundamental assumptions that the theory makes are wrong. So yes, they DID follow it to the Letter.

Create a system that any fool can use ... and only fools will use it. To get rich ... you produce/provide an item or service that is cheaper and/or easier than others could produce or provide for themselves ... if they could actually be bothered to make the effort.

The lazier the general population is ... the more chances there are to make money. For example ... see how many people are happy to come to your place and clean your car for you. Just one service that is no longer used just by the wealthy. The lazy are the base profile of the customer in many industries.

And so the individual is free to choose:

Do I want to spend my time cleaning my own car
or
Do I want to pay someone else to clean my car so I can focus my time elsewhere.

If it's more valuable for me to spend my time Working/spending time with family than it is to wash my car, then I'll pay someone to do it.

The current Patent laws should suffice ...

Honestly, I think the current Patent/Copywrite laws have gone too far IMO.

Capitalism is an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. Rather than being controlled by the state. Is New Zealand really in "an era of free-market capitalism" ... ???

I disagree it's a political system. I know that's the Google Definition, however the Wikipedia definition states:

Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.

Are we a pure Free Market Capitalist system? Not really - too much Government regulation for my liking, but also I'd not want a fully laissez-faire system.

To me its more like those working have to pay more to fund those NOT working ... so those not working can have the benefit (excuse the pun) of the moderate wealth those working have.

Hardly a capitalist society in my opinion.

Well, that's cause we are a Social Democracy, with a regulated Capitalist economic system.

And I don't mind having a social security system - despite my issues with the current system.

TheDemonLord

11th June 2021, 12:08

pretty much just the ones he did not have hands on day to day management.
Which explains with all the tv watching and golfing he did, the economy was allowed to continue on it's upwards trajectory eh :bleh:

But the trajectory DOUBLED - so clearly something Trump did (that Obama didn't) doubled the rate at which it grew.

What sacrifices are actually made whilst wearing a mask? Take off your stupid red/blue lens. I propose one group wore a mask because it was the right thing to do to reduce death and misery. The large proportion of non mask wearers were sucked in by a narcissist who does not care one fuck if people die in his successful effort to forge division within the people he swore to protect.

What Sacrifices are actually made by wearing a golden Star?

Again, there's a principled stand that says 'The Government doesn't get to dictate how I can enjoy my Natural Rights'.

What the Mask issue became was a display of Virtue by one side ('Look at how good we are, following all the rules, aren't we good people') and a display of rebellion by the other

I accept your acknowledgement that Trump indulges in shitty business practices in order to rip of his supporters. At last - thank you.

But no more shitty than every other company, and so nothing to uniquely criticize Trump on

Yes, these companies were titans of their time sure, Trump has released a blog so poorly received he pulled it. Hardly comparable.

True, but the point that in the short history of the Internet, one-time undisputed titans were beaten by a new, better platform.

As I have admitted before, my grasp of political ideologies is limited at best, so I was taking your words at face value, but after reading fj's responses, I realize your grasp is not that flash either.

FJ's responses miss some key parts. Again, don't take my word from it, or his - read the Academic works on the subject, they aren't shy about citing their influences.

It certainly killed Trump that said ex pow killed his kill obamacare act lol
I'm quite sure most ex pows did not support trumps statements or indeed trump.
The existing troops probably liked trump because rather than send them to war, trump just indulged in killing foreign mean tweeters instead :rolleyes:

I'm going to cite the opinion of Veterans Affairs Secretary Robert Wilkie, when asked about the remark:

"Well, it's politics."

So it seems the ex-Pows and Veterans also knew and understood the context in which the comment was given.

If you don't have a problem with clear abuse of process to get an outcome that clearly went against the premise of that documents design purpose, then stop crying when dems do the same :laugh:

Even if there was no bribery or corruption, was it outside the Spirit of the law? Yes.
But was it outside the letter of the law? No.

Now, I agree with your overarching point that a Model, even one per-eminent in their field, shouldn't be able to qualify for such a Visa (because, as I'm sure you'll agree, they don't exactly contribute much...)

However, that all said, she got through with the right documentation and paperwork

You mean the investigation that led to multiple arrests and jailings for many involved, 10 counts of obstruction. That investigation?

Except for the actual charge that was alleged.

I would love to, but unfortunately your guy got banned for inciting violence. I'm sure they did not want to ban a chief income earner but he was so bad - they had too. Yep, the president of the usa was so toxic he had to be banned!Anyways, just on woman abuse, take your pick below. Though I'm sure you could come up with 61 piles of bullshit as a response to each quote :rolleyes:
https://theweek.com/articles/655770/61-things-donald-trump-said-about-women

So, reading the list - they can broadly be taken on 3 categories:

1: Insulting the person directly (nothing to do with their gender)
2: Insulting people over their actions (nothing to do with their gender)
3: Commenting people on their Looks

But I think the one Quote I'm going to cite is this:

Women have one of the great acts of all time. The smart ones act very feminine and needy, but inside they are real killers. The person who came up with the expression 'the weaker sex' was either very naive or had to be kidding. I have seen women manipulate men with just a twitch of their eye — or perhaps another body part.

It seems Trump treats women as Equals - he talks to them in the exact same manner that he talks to Men.

Now, I'll agree that many of the comments are very impolite and rude (even if they may contain nuggets of Truth) - the Challenge however was to show a quote that shows he hates women. And from that list - and the above quote, it seems he respects them at least as a worthy adversarys and treats them exactly the same as he treats Men.

And that is what true Equality looks like - being treated equally - which includes being insulted equally.

So your framing of this is all of americas corruption can be laid at the feet of dastardly marxists :laugh:

Specifically, the major issues of the last 10-20 years.

I'm sure there are other corruptions that have different roots and are far older (the Lobbyists are probably the best example here).

and a system that is well in the process of creating a planet that will be too toxic for humans to live on due to unchecked greed and corruption.

In the 60s it was a system that was creating a planet too cold to live on. Then it was a system creating a planet too acidic to live on. Then it was a system creating a planet without enough Ozone to live on. Then it was a system creating a planet that was too hot to live on. Now it's a system that's creating a planet that is too changing to live on.

Curiously, the predictions always seem to be wrong and curiously they always seem to include a particular critique of Capitalism...

Should I also point out why the Green Party also just so happen to be the most left-wing Marxist Party in NZ?

It's almost like there's a link there... that maybe some of the people making the predictions have a vested interest in not only there being a disaster just around the corner if we don't act Now (and give them $$$ in research funding) but also they might be wanting to replace the Capitalist system (that's *clearly* the cause of every issue) with something else... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism)

Just a thought...

sugilite

11th June 2021, 13:19

But the trajectory DOUBLED - so clearly something Trump did (that Obama didn't) doubled the rate at which it grew.
No it didn't as per Husa well researched stats.

What Sacrifices are actually made by wearing a golden Star?
I did not ask about ab a unrelated Gold star. The mask was to curtail a virus, a star was to mark a specific race and only related in your ever desperate need to win a "point", no matter how ridiculous your premise
Again, what freedoms did wearing a mask prevent one from enjoying?

Again, there's a principled stand that says 'The Government doesn't get to dictate how I can enjoy my Natural Rights'.
So by your logic, why have any government mandated laws at all? The mask was a safety measure and from what I can make out in no way prevents one from enjoying freedom.

What the Mask issue became was a display of Virtue by one side ('Look at how good we are, following all the rules, aren't we good people') and a display of rebellion by the other
Only idiots that swallowed trumps divisive bullshit swallowed that one. I'm loving watching you write this stuff, it shows how far away from reality you are willing to go to protect the love of your life - trump :laugh:

But no more shitty than every other company, and so nothing to uniquely criticize Trump on
And there in a nutshell is your "free pass for trump" in any and every situation - if someone else has done it, then it's ok for trump for trump to do it.

True, but the point that in the short history of the Internet, one-time undisputed titans were beaten by a new, better platform.
And Trump is going to bring such a platform? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

FJ's responses miss some key parts.
As apparrently did you - which I already knew from your statement "followed to the letter". Yeah right.

I'm going to cite the opinion of Veterans Affairs Secretary Robert Wilkie, when asked about the remark:

"Well, it's politics."

So it seems the ex-Pows and Veterans also knew and understood the context in which the comment was given.
Well done, you have just attributed one persons view to hundreds of thousands of people. Top stuff!

Even if there was no bribery or corruption, was it outside the Spirit of the law? Yes.
But was it outside the letter of the law? No.

Now, I agree with your overarching point that a Model, even one per-eminent in their field, shouldn't be able to qualify for such a Visa (because, as I'm sure you'll agree, they don't exactly contribute much...)

However, that all said, she got through with the right documentation and paperwork
Well yes, because no investigation required for you to categorically know it was all above board and within the law. So even though it smells in a spectacularly bad way, nothing untoward happened. Yet an obscure anomaly and those dastardly dems gone done rigged the election. Clearly no bias there huh :blink:

Except for the actual charge that was alleged.
The other charges are very much related.

So, reading the list - they can broadly be taken on 3 categories:

1: Insulting the person directly (nothing to do with their gender)
2: Insulting people over their actions (nothing to do with their gender)
3: Commenting people on their Looks

I knew you could brush of 61 instances, nice work! :facepalm:

In the 60s it was a system that was creating a planet too cold to live on. Then it was a system creating a planet too acidic to live on. Then it was a system creating a planet without enough Ozone to live on. Then it was a system creating a planet that was too hot to live on. Now it's a system that's creating a planet that is too changing to live on.

Curiously, the predictions always seem to be wrong and curiously they always seem to include a particular critique of Capitalism...

Should I also point out why the Green Party also just so happen to be the most left-wing Marxist Party in NZ?

It's almost like there's a link there... that maybe some of the people making the predictions have a vested interest in not only there being a disaster just around the corner if we don't act Now (and give them $$$ in research funding) but also they might be wanting to replace the Capitalist system (that's *clearly* the cause of every issue) with something else... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eco-socialism)

Just a thought...

I'm always bemused when the same people that at times like to say look to the science when it suits their arguements, then turn around and ignore it when it does not.
Global warming is a thing mate :yes:
So is a finite set of resources.

Do I have a solution for it - or a suggested ideology that would solve it?
Absolutely not.
As mentioned, my opinion is it will always fail because of human nature.
Want an example? When something as simple and logical as wearing a mask to save lives becomes something to bicker over, fake indignation that some how wearing one curtails freedoms and is also some sort of political statement. Well, there is no hope for such morons, of which there is a vast number of.

husaberg

11th June 2021, 16:49

It certainly killed Trump that said ex pow killed his kill Obamacare act lol
I'm quite sure most ex-pows did not support Trump's statements or indeed trump.
The existing troops probably liked trump because rather than send them to war, trump just indulged in killing foreign mean tweeters instead :rolleyes:

.

Trump couldn't even get full republican support for getting rid of Obamacare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLsPfYUp1QM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wezSi5RLkRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjP1vHfv3L8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLIlOQuzTnU

"We are an important check on the powers of the Executive. Our consent is necessary for the President to appoint jurists and powerful government officials and in many respects to conduct foreign policy. Whether or not we are of the same party, we are not the President's subordinates. We are his equal!

"As his responsibilities are onerous, many and powerful, so are ours. And we play a vital role in shaping and directing the judiciary, the military, and the cabinet, in planning and supporting foreign and domestic policies. Our success in meeting all these awesome constitutional obligations depends on cooperation among ourselves.

10 members of his own Republican party even voted to impeach Trump

but yeah
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DetKPiyUEAAIJAV.jpg

R650R

13th June 2021, 09:43

Is our resident Washington post correspondent going to publish the retraction they made in regards to a major Trump article around time of election that was basically complete fake news... ????

husaberg

13th June 2021, 11:02

The media are tripping over themselves trying to solve the mystery of why Africans aren't dying from covid as badly as the west.
Africans routinely take a cheap safe anti malaria drug invented in n 1960's called hydroxychloroquine....
Scooby Doo would solve that puzzle faster

Nothing to do with Trump.
If you widened your reading circle to sources outside the mainstream media machine you’ll find plenty of independant sources were saying hey we experimented with this and had some success.

Hydroxyclhoriquine has been around since 60’s been used years officially as anti malaria drug and its super cheap.

This statement has been fact checked and found to be true.

Well well well, our journey into communist hell continues.

There has only been 1650 alleged cases (out of 700,000 tests!!!!) of the virus, but what has spread faster has been submission to communist control.
Nearly 2 million have downloaded the Covid app so you can be sent to a govt “ health” camp to catch the virus if you didnt already have it.

But yay 3 million kiwis have said no to turning their phone into govt spy device.

Tommorow is D-day, public transport will be the barometer of how many of us have rolled belly up to mask wearing.
Hopefully most will say screw this shit and drive their cars to work.

You don’t have to wear a mask if it affects your physical or mental health and you do NOT need to present documents to prove this.

Out and about it’s refreshing to see nearly No one scanning the qr code thingy.

It’s quite clear now as the mountain of contradictions grow that it’s not about stopping the “virus”..

Masks are for destroying social interaction and communication with strangers. You know those moments in life when some shitbag is bashing his missus and enough of you make visual contact to know you’ve got each other back and intervene.
But with masks there will never be any Flight 93 “lets roll” moments of bravery, you’ll never know if your fellow citizen is a Karen or Stasi as you reluctantly board the blacked out train carriage...
A cop will never see your friendly smile, never know you like them and not let you off that minor stop sign indescretion...
...............................

TheDemonLord

14th June 2021, 10:30

No it didn't as per Husa well researched stats.

So the graph I posted is false then?

I did not ask about ab a unrelated Gold star. The mask was to curtail a virus, a star was to mark a specific race and only related in your ever desperate need to win a "point", no matter how ridiculous your premise
Again, what freedoms did wearing a mask prevent one from enjoying?

Without getting into the specifics of 'A mask' vs 'A Surgical Mask' and alike - you are missing the point that I'm making.

What wearing a Mask became was a way for certain groups to show their ideological allegiance.

In much the same way as the wearing of a Gold Star was to show who the 'good' people were and who the 'bad' people were.

Freedoms such as not being allowed into Pubic spaces for a start.

So by your logic, why have any government mandated laws at all? The mask was a safety measure and from what I can make out in no way prevents one from enjoying freedom.

See the comment about the british liberal concept of a Natural Right - these are what laws are designed to Protect.

When access to certain things are conditional on wearing a mask, that is were the restriction is happening 'Can't do XYZ unless you wear a mask'

Only idiots that swallowed trumps divisive bullshit swallowed that one. I'm loving watching you write this stuff, it shows how far away from reality you are willing to go to protect the love of your life - trump :laugh:

I've never really commented on Masks per se - the science on them was patchy at the start, but it seems that a mask that stops particles of a certain thickness (ie saliva spray) is effective at stopping transmission - what I am commenting on is how the wearing of a Mask became a symbol of Piety for a certain group an a symbol of rebellion for another.

And there in a nutshell is your "free pass for trump" in any and every situation - if someone else has done it, then it's ok for trump for trump to do it.

It's very hard to criticize someone for what is (unfortunately) a standard business practice.

And Trump is going to bring such a platform? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

I have no idea, he was pretty popular on the last few social media platforms, so it's a possibility.

And people laughed as hard at that at the notion he would be the President...

As apparrently did you - which I already knew from your statement "followed to the letter". Yeah right.

Both you and FJ miss the tongue-in-cheek point being made there.

Socialism/Communism or any other Marxist derived system makes a number of assumptions about the Human experience (assumptions which only a small amount of introspection and observation would disprove), because of that, it is doomed to failure. And it is Doomed in a very specific manner.

When I say they followed it to the Letter, I don't mean in accordance with the impossible dream outlined by Marx, I mean in accordance to the reality of attempting to achieve such a Dream.

Well done, you have just attributed one persons view to hundreds of thousands of people. Top stuff!

I mean - I point out that most Military Members support Trump - Ah but they are currently Serving
I could post you umpteen Veteran Military public figures - ALL of them are VERY pro-Trump
That quote was succinct and summed up best what the feeling is - they know it's a political jab at a political opponent, not a comment on the wider Military experience.

Well yes, because no investigation required for you to categorically know it was all above board and within the law. So even though it smells in a spectacularly bad way, nothing untoward happened. Yet an obscure anomaly and those dastardly dems gone done rigged the election. Clearly no bias there huh :blink:

I'm mostly agreeing with you on this point - That it's not in the spirit of the law and could well have had a dodgy component in it.

If you think an investigation is warranted, go ahead, I'm not entirely disagreeing - only to say that at the point of entry, she had the necessary particulars.

The other charges are very much related.

Except the one charge that actually mattered, the Smoking Gun - that never eventuated

I knew you could brush of 61 instances, nice work! :facepalm:

Okay - let's be clear:

It's not nice to Insult people
It's not nice to Insult people based on their appearance

But it does not show hatred of an entire subset of the human race. To the Contrary, him outlining that some women are able to outsmart Men by using their wits, cunning and femininity shows a degree of admiration for them.

I'm always bemused when the same people that at times like to say look to the science when it suits their arguements, then turn around and ignore it when it does not.
Global warming is a thing mate :yes:
So is a finite set of resources.

Do I have a solution for it - or a suggested ideology that would solve it?
Absolutely not.
As mentioned, my opinion is it will always fail because of human nature.

I've never said Global Warming isn't a thing - I've pointed out that the Alarmist predictions have not come true. And then pointed to other alarmist predictions that also did not come true.

I think I've expressed my opinion on this before - but in case you missed it or I haven't. I'm fine with individuals making decisions to reduce their environmental impact. I think Electric Cars (once Battery and Charging technology matures enough that a a recharge takes about the same time to fill a petrol tank and you get the same mileage on a full charge) will be great as there are a lot of advantages that can be had (No need for a Gearbox, constant torque throughout the rev range, Motors per-hub, smart traction control/torque splitting between wheels etc.)

Where I stop is that the alarmist predictions of the Environmental Activist Scientists have, in the last 60+ years NEVER been accurate. And we have a fairly comprehensive list of some of the claims (which I paraphrased).

We also have a very very short time-frame in which we have accurate data (relative to Geological time frames). All this is not to say that we shouldn't individually take reasonable steps to help the Environment.

Only that we should be extremely skeptical of the next Activist Scientist whose career requires there to be a crisis just around the corner in order to justify it's existence and whose ideological beliefs dictate the removal of the Capitalist system.

As for the final point - When the problem becomes bad enough that it affects people and they are willing to pay for a solution, the Free Market will find a way to fix the problem for a Price.

When something as simple and logical as wearing a mask to save lives becomes something to bicker over, fake indignation that some how wearing one curtails freedoms and is also some sort of political statement. Well, there is no hope for such morons, of which there is a vast number of.

I'm going to start with a partial quote from one C.S. Lewis:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive....
...but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

A mask, in of itself, may be innocuous and harmless, but we have plenty of examples from just the Pandemic response alone where Governments restricted freedoms without the legislation to do so.

There is also a common trend that a Government will first chance it's hand on something that in principle it should not do, but has little moral or practical objections - only to later on take further liberties on issues where there is a Moral or Practical Objection - but by then the precedent has been set.

And so in light of the quote above - when the Government says 'This is too dangerous for you, we are restricting your personal freedoms for your own good' - I, as I've stated, stand firmly on the side of Freedom and liberty (and all the dangers therein).

pritch

14th June 2021, 16:52

F5 Dave

14th June 2021, 19:25

Yeah but Hillary was running that child sex slave ring and Obama wasn't even American.

pritch

14th June 2021, 21:25

Dunno who's making money off this, but it's as kosher as a three dollar note.

sugilite

15th June 2021, 07:50

So the graph I posted is false then?
Yeah man, like Trump says - fake news.

Without getting into the specifics of 'A mask' vs 'A Surgical Mask' and alike - you are missing the point that I'm making.

What wearing a Mask became was a way for certain groups to show their ideological allegiance.

In much the same way as the wearing of a Gold Star was to show who the 'good' people were and who the 'bad' people were.

Freedoms such as not being allowed into Pubic spaces for a start.
The part of "Pious Arsehole" has been filled for the upcoming romance movie "Trump - the love story". The part of "Common Sense" is proving somewhat harder to fill :laugh:

I've never really commented on Masks per se - the science on them was patchy at the start, but it seems that a mask that stops particles of a certain thickness (ie saliva spray) is effective at stopping transmission - what I am commenting on is how the wearing of a Mask became a symbol of Piety for a certain group an a symbol of rebellion for another.

Nice gloss over the fact that your one true love started that dynamic!

t's very hard to criticize someone for what is (unfortunately) a standard business practice.
Actually fairly easy when many supporters had their cards charged several times over a one month period. Nice try at a good ole TDL gloss over job though :rolleyes:

I have no idea, he was pretty popular on the last few social media platforms, so it's a possibility.

And people laughed as hard at that at the notion he would be the President...
Someone that thought a blog would do the job is hardly going to get out a comprehensive social media platform. How many fairies did you see at the bottom of your garden this morning? :devil2:

Both you and FJ miss the tongue-in-cheek point being made there.

Socialism/Communism or any other Marxist derived system makes a number of assumptions about the Human experience (assumptions which only a small amount of introspection and observation would disprove), because of that, it is doomed to failure. And it is Doomed in a very specific manner.

When I say they followed it to the Letter, I don't mean in accordance with the impossible dream outlined by Marx, I mean in accordance to the reality of attempting to achieve such a Dream.
Got it, when you state "by the letter" you do not actually mean it :bleh:

I mean - I point out that most Military Members support Trump - Ah but they are currently Serving
I could post you umpteen Veteran Military public figures - ALL of them are VERY pro-Trump
Oh really? https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/more-200-retired-generals-admirals-endorse-biden-including-some-who-n1240842

That quote was succinct and summed up best what the feeling is - they know it's a political jab at a political opponent, not a comment on the wider Military experience.
I think the opponent he was jabbing was dead at the time. Par of the course for ex president coward.

I'm mostly agreeing with you on this point - That it's not in the spirit of the law and could well have had a dodgy component in it.

If you think an investigation is warranted, go ahead, I'm not entirely disagreeing - only to say that at the point of entry, she had the necessary particulars.
Hahaha, like any investigation goes anywhere in the us, no matter what party launches it :lol:

Except the one charge that actually mattered, the Smoking Gun - that never eventuated
All charges matter :bleh:

Okay - let's be clear:

It's not nice to Insult people
It's not nice to Insult people based on their appearance

But it does not show hatred of an entire subset of the human race. To the Contrary, him outlining that some women are able to outsmart Men by using their wits, cunning and femininity shows a degree of admiration for them.
So Trump was actually complimenting them in the midst of (as you admit) being a thoroughly un-nice person. Got it :niceone:

As for the final point - When the problem becomes bad enough that it affects people and they are willing to pay for a solution, the Free Market will find a way to fix the problem for a Price.

Except by then if course, it will very likely be way to late.

sugilite

15th June 2021, 08:25

Trump and his team lying about tear gassing peaceful protestors? Surely not!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sAERemVvcg

TheDemonLord

15th June 2021, 11:53

The editorial board of the Boston Globe thinks Trump should be prosecuted.

Here's why. I do realise this will be tl:dr for some.

https://apps.bostonglobe.com/opinion/graphics/2021/06/future-proofing-the-presidency/part-1-a-treasure-map-for-an-american-tyrant/

What a load of partisan drivel.

From a paper that openly supports the Democrats and proclaims their progressive Ideals...

pritch

15th June 2021, 13:31

Trump and his team lying about tear gassing peaceful protestors? Surely not!

I understand the Australian Government lodged a formal protest with the US Government about this particular piece of "fake news".

The reason for the complaint is seen at just after 1.00 into this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hblX9QwPDaw

pritch

15th June 2021, 16:19

husaberg

15th June 2021, 16:44

Lin Wood is a US lawyer, a conspiracy theorist and a Trump supporter, he has been reponsible for some of the court actions appealing Trump's election loss. The State Bar of Georgia, concerned at the state of his mental health, has ordered him to undertake a mental health evaluation to ascertain if he is still fit to practice law. He has appealed - and lost. He is currently still refusing to undertake the evaluation which alone could be sufficient cause for the State Bar to remove his licence.

If you enter his name in Google you'll get the picture.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2021/06/10/pro-trump-lawyer-lin-wood-loses-lawsuit-over-mental-health-evaluation/?sh=68839a225137

Another lawyer should be very worried

The New York State Bar Association (NYSBA) strongly condemned the violent uprising that occurred at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, orchestrated by individuals bent on subverting the will of the voters by disrupting the certification of the 2020 presidential election results.

Thankfully, Congress overcame this assault and fulfilled its constitutional responsibility in certifying the Biden-Harris victory. However, we must address the root cause of this abhorrent incident, the blame for which lies first and foremost with President Donald Trump.

But the president did not act alone. Hours before the angry mob stormed the Capitol walls, Trump’s personal attorney, Rudolph Giuliani, addressed a crowd of thousands at the White House, reiterating baseless claims of widespread election fraud in the presidential election and the Georgia U.S. Senate runoffs.
https://nysba.org/new-york-state-bar-association-launches-historic-inquiry-into-removing-trump-attorney-rudy-giuliani-from-its-membership/

NYSBA’s bylaws state that “no person who advocates the overthrow of the government of the United States, or of any state, territory or possession thereof, or of any political subdivision therein, by force or other illegal means, shall be a member of the Association.

addressed a crowd of thousands at the White House, reiterating baseless claims of widespread election fraud in the presidential election and the Georgia U.S. Senate runoffs.
“If we’re wrong, we will be made fools of, but if we’re right a lot of them will go to jail,” Mr. Giuliani said. “Let’s have trial by combat.”

https://nysba.org

Rep. Bill Pascrell Jr. (D-N.J.) filed complaints on Friday in five states against Giuliani and 22 other lawyers working with the Trump campaign, calling for them to be stripped of their law licenses for filing “frivolous” lawsuits and allegedly engaging in “conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit, or misrepresentation.”

“Donald Trump has done great damage to this nation — but he has always had helpers. These lawyers are enabling his treachery and harming our democracy,” Pascrell told The Post through a spokesperson Monday. He called the campaign legal team’s effort to overturn election results with frivolous lawsuits "misconduct and an affront to the rule of law.”

pritch

15th June 2021, 20:01

Another lawyer should be very worried

Yep. Powell too. Although losing the right to practice should just be the beginning. They should all do time, either in a prison or the funny farm.

husaberg

15th June 2021, 20:26

Yep. Powell too. Although losing the right to practice should just be the beginning. They should all do time, either in a prison or the funny farm.

Well at least one already has been disbarred and had been prisoned at least.

Michael Dean Cohen (born August 25, 1966) is an American disbarred lawyer who served as an attorney for U.S. president Donald Trump from 2006 to 2018. Cohen was a vice-president of the Trump Organization, and the personal counsel to Trump. He served as co-president of Trump Entertainment and was a board member of the Eric Trump Foundation, a children's health charity. From 2017 to 2018, Cohen was deputy finance chairman of the Republican National Committee.

Re Lin Wood

“repeatedly posted incendiary, seditious, and patently false messages on social media,” including implying Supreme Court Justice John Roberts belongs to a sex trafficking ring and calling for former Vice President Mike Pence to face “firing squads.”

the laywers club also said

“Under any reasonable measurement of conduct unbecoming, Mr. Wood has crossed that line by a wide margin,” the Lawyers Club wrote. “Mr. Wood’s continued membership in the Club would bring discredit to the Club and its members.”

FJRider

15th June 2021, 23:17

If we are all equal, in a perfect Communist utopia, then there is no reason why we wouldn't have perfect representation at all levels, because we would all be equal.

To use your own words (from a reply you made in another post in THIS thread ) ...

When I say they followed it to the Letter, I don't mean in accordance with the impossible dream outlined by Marx, I mean in accordance to the reality of attempting to achieve such a Dream.

Actual fact ... "PERFECT" Communist Regimes do NOT exist. If you CAN ... NAME ONE ... otherwise your posts are (as I stated) ... Complete and total BULLSHIT ... !!!

In terms of the Fastest Sprinter - sure, the process for selection in any arena has discrepancies ...

Considering the BULLSHIT you have already posted ... I have to say YOUR posts have very LARGE discrepancies ... discrepancies you later (as I have quoted above) ... ADMIT.

To the Marxist, however, since everyone is equal, there should be an equal distribution of top sprinters when compared to the population make up: x% of White people, x% of Black people etc.

As YOU admitted (as above) ... reality differs from the intended policy of the Communist/Marxist system. Everyone is NOT equal.

Far from it ... ACTUALLY.

The first part sounds like "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"....

Considering there is no sound in this forum ... your "Deafness" is apparent. Selective deafness actually. The equality of having the SAME rights to health, employment, and education ... to name but a few ... is the basis of a civilized community.

According to "HIS" needs .. ??? (what about "HER" needs) you are not only deaf ... but sexist too ("THEIR" needs would have been correct)... ??? But who decides what "HIS" (or HER) needs are .. ?? And what has ability (to perform what .. ??) got to do with it ... ?? If they HAVE a need ... they wont automatically have an ability to fulfill that need. If they HAVE the ability ... it might seem logical the "Need" might not be there.

Can you care to explain what the differences between the NEED and ABILITY are ... to get assistance .. ???

are there different requirements to getting necessary needed assistance ... ??

The Collectivist argument goes something like 'You are of xxxxxx descent, therefore you are likely to have Y health needs' - now, to give the Devil their Due, certain ethnic groups do have certain risk factors due to genetic traits and so even from a Liberal position (which would generally favour an individual view) this has a valid reason.

NOW you say the help New Zealand social services providers are race based ... ??? Does it really matter the ETHNIC BACKGROUND of a person requiring help legally affects/changes the amount (or urgency) of the help that citizens will expect to get .. ??

Sure, but again - the Liberal position is that there is Equality of Opportunity - If Me and Bill Gates both end up at Hospital at the same time - The Liberal position is that we are both treated as individuals

Reality ... If Bill Gates ... and ended up in the same hospital as YOU ... YOU would either be in a private hospital in your own private room. Or ... HE would be in a PUBLIC ward ... and members of HIS staff would be unemployed.

REALITY sunshine ... Get used to it.

Of course the critique is that Bill gates has the money to pay for Private care and so doesn't have to wait and can afford to see specialists etc. but that's outside the scope of the discussion

REALITY ... I mentioned THAT above too ... you seem to lack a grasp of the obvious ... Please try to keep up.

It can never end in any other way. The fundamental assumptions that the theory makes are wrong. So yes, they DID follow it to the Letter.

If the Marxist/Communist Regime was followed to the letter (by your OWN admission at the start of this post it was NOT followed to the letter) ... And so it failed ... in the biggest way possible.

Government Employee's were not paid on a regular basis ... all Government sector Heads of Departments (junior and senior) were rife for bribery and corruption ... and the common citizen got screwed in any and every way possible.

And so the individual is free to choose:

Do I want to spend my time cleaning my own car

Even if YOU don't pay someone to clean YOUR car ... How often do YOU clean your OWN car .. ???

or

Do I want to pay someone else to clean my car so I can focus my time elsewhere.

Like ...

At the pub .. ??

At home with family .. ??

At work/Business .. ??

BUT ... usually the real reason they pay someone to clean their car is ... because they can (sometimes) afford it ... or ... they let other more important financial demands slide ... for reasons of their perceived priority ... rather than actual importance.

If it's more valuable for me to spend my time Working/spending time with family than it is to wash my car, then I'll pay someone to do it.

As above ... the 20 minutes away from your family cleaning your car ... you will never get over.

Honestly, I think the current Patent/Copywrite laws have gone too far IMO.

Those with Copyright and Patent rights ... will probably disagree.

Do YOU have ANY Copyright or Patent .. ?? If your answer is NO ... your answer is to be expected.

Your logic and common sense in your comments (to date) would preclude that. I think (just my personal opinion) that YOU coming up with something (ANYTHING) original ... would be beyond you.

I disagree it's a political system. I know that's the Google Definition, however the Wikipedia definition states ...

Disagree with WHAT .. is Capitalism really political ... or just a reality in a FREE society .. ??

Are we a pure Free Market Capitalist system? Not really - too much Government regulation for my liking, but also I'd not want a fully laissez-faire system.

Rule number one in a "Free market system" ... the Government has to make money in whatever scheme you are running. NO exceptions. Period.

Well, that's cause we are a Social Democracy, with a regulated Capitalist economic system.

And I don't mind having a social security system - despite my issues with the current system.

Bullshit ...it's more like those WITH money have to provide for those with NO money ... and no intention (or ability) to provide their own income.

But those with NO ability (or intention) to EARN their own income ... still DEMAND equal funding for THEIR own chosen lifestyle.

Which are you .. a provider ... or being provided FOR ... ???

SOCIAL Democracy .. ??

Google Democracy ... here's the result of what I found ...

a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

"a system of parliamentary democracy"

Similar:

Representative government

Elective government

Constitutional government

Popular government

Self-government

Government by the people

Autonomy

Republic

Commonwealth

Opposite:

Tyranny

Dictatorship

A state governed under a system of democracy.

Plural noun: democracies

"a multiparty democracy" .. control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.

"the intended extension of industrial democracy"

Which of the above describes the NZ Government system ... ??

NOT found ... was Social Democracy. Why would that be ... ???

Personally ... I think you simply allow your imagination more freedom than it deserves.

TheDemonLord

17th June 2021, 10:25

Yeah man, like Trump says - fake news.

So, to be clear - you are claiming that the BBC (with a demonstrable left-wing Bias) is promoting Fake news in favour of Trump?

Yeah man, like Trump says - fake news. The part of "Pious Arsehole" has been filled for the upcoming romance movie "Trump - the love story". The part of "Common Sense" is proving somewhat harder to fill :laugh:

Nice gloss over the fact that your one true love started that dynamic!

As I pointed out - Fauci was originally responsible telling people not to wear Masks, even begrudgingly admitted by various left-wing 'fact-checking' sites.

The opposition to the mandatory enforcement of Mask wearing rules, however, does not come from either Trump or Fauci - but from a principle of Freedom.

Actually fairly easy when many supporters had their cards charged several times over a one month period. Nice try at a good ole TDL gloss over job though :rolleyes:

Yes... As you know I help manage IT systems, I can assure you - I've had to investigate multiple charges to peoples cards for various reasons. The part you are missing is the proof that this is due to a deliberate action, as opposed to error.

Someone that thought a blog would do the job is hardly going to get out a comprehensive social media platform. How many fairies did you see at the bottom of your garden this morning? :devil2:

I mean from the beginning I said without user interaction, it wasn't going to get a lot of traction, the point is however that Trump has been written off as having no hope at achieving something, so I'd be a little hesitant about dismissing him out of hand.

Got it, when you state "by the letter" you do not actually mean it :bleh:

So, I will expand on this in my responses to FJR - but let me be clear - I do explicitly mean it.

Firstly - what you are doing is a variant of this tired old argument: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=that%27s+not+real+communism - an Argument I find particularly distasteful. In your case, you've said you haven't read a lot of political theory - so I'll give you a partial free pass - but to put it into context - you rightly critique my support of Trump and contrast that with the Covid Death-Toll (600,000). So what should my critique of you be when you are repeating the apologia (and therefore giving implicit support to) a system that has resulted in up to 200 MILLION deaths?

When you look at Marx's theory and you think about it - and I mean *really* think about it - you realise that it is fundamentally incompatible with Humans. I came to that realization when I was about 18 - it's a lovely system in theory - but Human Nature (See all the Marxists believe in Tabula Rasa...) means it can never be implemented as it is defined in theory.

What you are left with then is the attempt to implement it, as per the theory, always fails and more importantly, always fails with the same results - for the same reasons.

The attempt is done by the letter - but Reality and theory always Diverge.

Or to put it another way - If someone had a theory that if you ran really fast and flapped your arms really hard and did it off the side of a Cliff, you could fly.

The Marxist apologists would say 'Oh but if he just ran a bit faster' or 'The Cliff wasn't the correct type' or 'He needed to make his hands into a bird-like wing shape' or any other apologia and then claim since it didn't perfectly match the theory, it wasn't a real attempt and it will work next time...

Whereas I would look at the Corpse at the bottom of the Cliff and say 'They implemented the Theory, to the letter - and got the same result as everyone else'

Oh really? https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/more-200-retired-generals-admirals-endorse-biden-including-some-who-n1240842

https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-geo-images/30c9fc39-991f-40d1-a2fc-d4ce18b97630.jpg

(God, it's been forever since I've had an excuse to use those Owls)

https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/fb7c7bd8-097d-4e2f-8f12-3442d151b57d/downloads/2021%20Open%20Letter%20from%20Retired%20Generals%2 0and%20Adm.pdf?ver=1620643005025

And isn't it interesting that the Letter I put forward still is accessible - but when I go to the letter in the article:

Oh Dear. (https://www.nationalsecurityleaders4biden.com/)

So, I guess that shows just how sturdy and stalwart their 'support' really was....

I think the opponent he was jabbing was dead at the time. Par of the course for ex president coward.

Many people have been critical of Senator McCain, both before and after his Death. And the loudest of those critics have been Republicans.

However, https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/trump-attacks-mccain-i-like-people-who-werent-captured-120317

That was in 2015, McCain died in 2018, So he was very much alive and kicking.

All charges matter :bleh:

This reminds me very much of the case of British Voldemort (He-who-shall-not-be-named) and his conviction for Mortgage Fraud. I'm certain someone was to look hard enough at most people on this site, they would find illegal dealings and something that a charge could be pinned on.

But that actual charge that was touted, the one that mattered, the one that we were assured of by CNN? *Nothing*

So Trump was actually complimenting them in the midst of (as you admit) being a thoroughly un-nice person. Got it :niceone:

Well, hang on a second there Bud - there's something we need to get straight.

Do you believe in Equality of the Sexes? I'm going to presume you do. That is to say that I, You and Trump should treat Men and Women the same?

If that is the case, then it must follow that whilst it is not kind or nice to insult someone - If I, You or Trump were to insult a Woman in the same manner that we would insult a Man - then that is, by the above definition, equality.

If someone was more than happy to insult a Man, but declined to insult a Woman purely on account of her being a woman, that is - by definition Sexism.

I think I can dispense with the obvious, but for completeness sake - Both you and I agree that Trump is more than happy to hurl Insults at other men.

The charge you raised against Trump was that he is Sexist and the proof you provided was a littany of insults against Women.

I could perhaps agree with the assessment if the Insults were based solely on them being Women - but they aren't. Most of them are based upon their actions. And in the list provided there are a number of statements that show he considers them as worthy adversaries - that is to say, being his equal.

Except by then if course, it will very likely be way to late.

So said the Doom-mongers in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s, 20s....

But we are still here, despite their predictions (and some of them were given in time frames that have since come to pass)

I personally think the Planet and Humans are far more resilient and so even if we did manage to catastrophically fuck it up, we'd still survive and eventually thrive - it just might suck quite a lot in the short term.

TheDemonLord

17th June 2021, 12:49

To use your own words (from a reply you made in another post in THIS thread ) ...

Actual fact ... "PERFECT" Communist Regimes do NOT exist. If you CAN ... NAME ONE ... otherwise your posts are (as I stated) ... Complete and total BULLSHIT ... !!!

If you want everyone to be equal, the only way to do that is to reduce everyone down to the lowest common denominator. And the only way to do that is through absolute Tyranny.

When I state that they followed Marx's teachings to the Letter, I mean it. That it fails to achieve the hypothetical end-goal is not my concern. That it always ends up in the same situation is merely grounds for me to point out why the theory is so demonstrably flawed.

You are looking at the end-state of Communism (which Marx believed would eventually come via Socialism) of a Classless Moneyless society - then looking at all the failed attempts and making a variant of the phrase:

'See, that wasn't REAL Communism' - a Phrase which I find to be utterly detestable.

Considering the BULLSHIT you have already posted ... I have to say YOUR posts have very LARGE discrepancies ... discrepancies you later (as I have quoted above) ... ADMIT.

Admit what? Either you agree with me that people are different (which you seem to be doing) and therefore the theoretical end-state of Marx's Utopia is impossible to achieve and therefore even if one takes all the steps outlined in the Communist Manifesto, as per Marx's original vision, it will never achieve the desired outcome.

My point is that every time someone does what Marx says to do, it doesn't end up where Marx says it will. This does not mean that it hasn't been tried or that it wasn't tried correctly - on the contrary, the real-world examples both at the Macro and the Micro level (e.g. Entire Countries and small Communist Communes) bear this fact out.

So I repeat my earlier claim - that yes, it was done exactly as Marx said to do it, but in reality it did not produce what Marx said it would.

Those are not conflicting statements and the lack of the latter does not invalidate the former.

As YOU admitted (as above) ... reality differs from the intended policy of the Communist/Marxist system. Everyone is NOT equal.

Far from it ... ACTUALLY.

No - the correct phrase would be:

reality differs from the intended Outcome of the Communist/Marxist system

Outcome and Policy are two wildly different concepts.

And this is where the contention is. You are implcitly saying that because the Policy didn't produce the Outcome, the Policy wasn't tried.

My statement is that the Policy was tried, but it didn't produce the outcome because the ideal that drove the policy is fundamentally wrong.

Considering there is no sound in this forum ... your "Deafness" is apparent. Selective deafness actually. The equality of having the SAME rights to health, employment, and education ... to name but a few ... is the basis of a civilized community.

Those may be Human Rights, but not Natural Rights. Since Health, Employment and Education requires a 3rd party.

According to "HIS" needs .. ??? (what about "HER" needs) you are not only deaf ... but sexist too ("THEIR" needs would have been correct)... ??? But who decides what "HIS" (or HER) needs are .. ?? And what has ability (to perform what .. ??) got to do with it ... ?? If they HAVE a need ... they wont automatically have an ability to fulfill that need. If they HAVE the ability ... it might seem logical the "Need" might not be there.

It's not my quote, it's from Marx... So you'll have to take the Sexism up with him.

Ironically, in your critique of Me, you've actually pointed out one of the many issues with Marx - namely Who DOES decide what someones Needs are?

Can you care to explain what the differences between the NEED and ABILITY are ... to get assistance .. ???

are there different requirements to getting necessary needed assistance ... ??

Again, I agree with you - and all what you are saying is a further reinforcement of the problems with Marx's theory.

NOW you say the help New Zealand social services providers are race based ... ??? Does it really matter the ETHNIC BACKGROUND of a person requiring help legally affects/changes the amount (or urgency) of the help that citizens will expect to get .. ??

Specifically Health Care - certain Genetic Groups have Genetic predispositions and higher risks to certain conditions. On that point, a case can be made from the Liberal position, that someone who has something over which they have no control (their Genetic make-up) shouldn't be 'penalized' on certain conditions by having the same standard of care as one who doesn't have a predisposition.

I agree that in general, Access to Public Services should not be dependent on a particular Group identity. Do you remember the furor that this raised: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/unlicensed-maori-drivers-exempt-from-fines/GHGVV3LKTJEYYK6KGEU6ZYRFIE/?

So it's not like there isn't precedent to say that some social institutions haven't had issues with 'positive discrimination' (which is still discrimination and wrong) - and I will quite merely point you to the body of Academic literature that says that this is a good thing, and then I'll point to the chain of citations with Glee as it leads back to Marx.

Reality ... If Bill Gates ... and ended up in the same hospital as YOU ... YOU would either be in a private hospital in your own private room. Or ... HE would be in a PUBLIC ward ... and members of HIS staff would be unemployed.

REALITY sunshine ... Get used to it.

REALITY ... I mentioned THAT above too ... you seem to lack a grasp of the obvious ... Please try to keep up.

You miss the point. When accessing a Public service, we should both get the same level of Care. I've been to Hospitals, admittedly not with Bill Gates, but definitely with some people who are *quite* well off, they are treated by the Nurses and Doctors mostly the same as the person who is on the Benefit (The mostly being contingent on their Attitude, not their Social Status or any other group)

If the Marxist/Communist Regime was followed to the letter (by your OWN admission at the start of this post it was NOT followed to the letter) ... And so it failed ... in the biggest way possible.

Government Employee's were not paid on a regular basis ... all Government sector Heads of Departments (junior and senior) were rife for bribery and corruption ... and the common citizen got screwed in any and every way possible.

See above. The more you try to hammer home this point, the more you are vindicating the point I was making that the Policy was implemented as per Marx, but the Outcome was vastly different.

Even if YOU don't pay someone to clean YOUR car ... How often do YOU clean your OWN car .. ???

or

Like ...

At the pub .. ??

At home with family .. ??

At work/Business .. ??

BUT ... usually the real reason they pay someone to clean their car is ... because they can (sometimes) afford it ... or ... they let other more important financial demands slide ... for reasons of their perceived priority ... rather than actual importance.

As above ... the 20 minutes away from your family cleaning your car ... you will never get over.

It matters not, only that I'm free to make the decision as I see fit and as works best for me at the current time.

Those with Copyright and Patent rights ... will probably disagree.

Do YOU have ANY Copyright or Patent .. ?? If your answer is NO ... your answer is to be expected.

Your logic and common sense in your comments (to date) would preclude that. I think (just my personal opinion) that YOU coming up with something (ANYTHING) original ... would be beyond you.

And yet, I have recorded original Music, which by extension gives me automatic copyright in NZ.

Everything I write here - could be considered Original, so the fact I reply to you with my own words (which you acknowledge are mine) kinda disproves your point.

Disagree with WHAT .. is Capitalism really political ... or just a reality in a FREE society .. ??

I hold the opinion that Capitalism is purely an Economic System, not a Political System. Often those who wish to see it as a Political System do so that they may attack on a Political Basis (generally Devotees of one aforementioned Marx)

In terms of whether it's a reality or not - My opinion is that the Capitalist free market gives the most amount of people the most amount of freedom, with perhaps the only exception being those who live a purely Anarchist lifestyle/outside of any system of Governance.

Although you could make the argument that those people are oppressed by Nature/Life in a way that the Capitalist system isn't - but that's a different story.

Rule number one in a "Free market system" ... the Government has to make money in whatever scheme you are running. NO exceptions. Period.

The ANCAPs would like a word.

Bullshit ...it's more like those WITH money have to provide for those with NO money ... and no intention (or ability) to provide their own income.

But those with NO ability (or intention) to EARN their own income ... still DEMAND equal funding for THEIR own chosen lifestyle.

Which are you .. a provider ... or being provided FOR ... ???

Have to? No sir. They do not. They do so under the fiat of force from the Government (Taxation) and that when people have nothing to loose and everything to gain, it makes for tempting targets.

As for which am I? I've been a net-tax payer (that is, I pay more in Tax that I consume in services from the Government) since I was in my mid twenties.

SOCIAL Democracy .. ??

A Social Democracy (not the Socialist usurping of the word) is also known as the Nordic Model - basically it's a system of Government with High Taxation and a high focus on good quality public services.

It refers not to the make up or assembly of the governing system, but more towards the style of government - hence why it doesn't make your list.

Google Democracy ... here's the result of what I found ...

a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

"a system of parliamentary democracy"

Similar:

Representative government

Elective government

Constitutional government

Popular government

Self-government

Government by the people

Autonomy

Republic

Commonwealth

Opposite:

Tyranny

Dictatorship

A state governed under a system of democracy.

Plural noun: democracies

"a multiparty democracy" .. control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.

"the intended extension of industrial democracy"

Which of the above describes the NZ Government system ... ??

None, because since the Queen is our Head of State, we are a Constitutional Monarchy

NOT found ... was Social Democracy. Why would that be ... ???

As above, those words describe the architecture of the Governing structures, not the Policy objectives of the Government

Personally ... I think you simply allow your imagination more freedom than it deserves.

And conversely, I think you should allow yours a little more.

pritch

17th June 2021, 21:27

FOX tried to lay the blame for Jan 6th coup attempt anywhere except with the RWNJs where it belonged. Remember the Antifa and BLM people wearing red hat disguises?
Yeah, that was unhinged enough, but Tucker Carlson has excelled himself. Noting that among the court papers relating to the hundreds of people now facing charges from the events of that day, there is frequent mention of "unindicted co conspirators", Carlson has decided that this phrase indicates that the person is FBI.
So you see the insurrection was an FBI plot all along. Apparently.

Meanwhile back on Earth, Andrew McCabe, former head of the FBI, said on CNN that the description unindicted co conspirator can mean many things: the prosecutors are still seeking proof, or are seeking additional proof, or it can mean the person is cooperating with prosecutors, etc. He said it would be illegal to describe fBI staff or informants as unindicted co conspirators.

My favourite part of all this is that in the court case arising from the payment of hush money to porn star Stormy Daniels that sent trump's lawyer Michael Cohen to jail, Trump is described as Individual number 1. Individual number 1 is an unindicted co conspirator. Using Carlson's logic Trump is FBI. Didn't see that coming. :whistle:

FJRider

17th June 2021, 22:25

If you want everyone to be equal, the only way to do that is to reduce everyone down to the lowest common denominator. And the only way to do that is through absolute Tyranny.

Where I come from ... equality is having equal rights. And equal right of access to the basic necessities of life.

Like the provision of healthy food ... comfortable housing ... and medical help as and when it's actually needed.

In a system that where the Government provides all ... employment should be based on work that the citizen CAN do ... not based on the (so called) worth of their occupation. Thusly ... personal wealth in such (perfect) Marxist systems is not accumulated.

When I state that they followed Marx's teachings to the Letter, I mean it. That it fails to achieve the hypothetical end-goal is not my concern. That it always ends up in the same situation is merely grounds for me to point out why the theory is so demonstrably flawed.

From ...

When I say they followed it to the Letter, I don't mean in accordance with the impossible dream outlined by Marx, I mean in accordance to the reality of attempting to achieve such a Dream.

To ...

When I state that they followed Marx's teachings to the Letter, I mean it. That it fails to achieve the hypothetical end-goal is not my concern.

What happened to reality .. ??

The reality is ... there was no attempt to "follow it to the letter" ... so the system was doomed from the start. Your use of "the hypothetical end goal" term ... is proof the system could not be "Followed to the letter" and achieve anything anywhere near the (to use your words) "Hypothetical end goal". Something you are obviously aware of ... but not (apparently) the leaders of those in the various Governments that (try to) use this system of Government. Any idea why this could be ... ??

You are looking at the end-state of Communism (which Marx believed would eventually come via Socialism) of a Classless Moneyless society - then looking at all the failed attempts and making a variant of the phrase:

'See, that wasn't REAL Communism' - a Phrase which I find to be utterly detestable.

I'm looking at a system YOU stated they "Followed to the letter". They didn't ... couldn't ... and will never actually do so. Simply because those at the top of the ranking in those societies ... have far too much to lose.

My point is that every time someone does what Marx says to do, it doesn't end up where Marx says it will. This does not mean that it hasn't been tried or that it wasn't tried correctly - on the contrary, the real-world examples both at the Macro and the Micro level (e.g. Entire Countries and small Communist Communes) bear this fact out.

Nah ... it means (as I stated above) that Human nature of Political leaders (at ANY level) cannot allow it. Not because of any perceived loss of rights ... but plain and simply a potential loss of privileges.

Back in the early 1980's ... I agreed to do a bit of work in a small commune near Otaki (lower North island). As a favour for a friend who lived there. The place was run as the perfect all are equal society. No private money to be held by any member. All had a say in what was needed done ... and when. The evening meetings were almost laughable. And the chatter during the day was equally laughable. "Favours" offered for support of schemes planned were commonplace. Just prior to a necessary trip into town for needed parts for the project I was involved in ... five members gave me money (but no "private money allowed remember) to get items for them in town. In fact for the whole period I was there ... it seemed a continuous process of all members trying to gain an advantage of privilege over the others. I left the place as soon as I did what I had promised I would.

Be it a commune or country ... everybody wants more privileges than the others. Human nature. Many just see themselves as just more equal than others.

So I repeat my earlier claim - that yes, it was done exactly as Marx said to do it, but in reality it did not produce what Marx said it would.

Repeat it until the cows come home ... they don't do it as Marx said to do it. Following to the letter means ACTUALLY following it to the letter.

They DON'T. Resulting in a FAIL to achieve the intended result.

Those are not conflicting statements and the lack of the latter does not invalidate the former.

Your comment ...

So I repeat my earlier claim

You "Claim" a lot ... but (as always) ... it's just bullshit.

No ...

Outcome and Policy are two wildly different concepts.

"Outcome" is reliant on on actual practice ... not policy.

"Policy" isn't even "the rules". Policy is just preferred practice. In actuality ... policy isn't even always followed.

And this is where the contention is. You are implcitly saying that because the Policy didn't produce the Outcome, the Policy wasn't tried.

As above ... Policy is NOT actual practice. In ANY Business ... business managers prefer it when policy is followed.

In reality ... this is not always the case.

If YOU believe "Policy" is ALWAYS followed to the letter (anywhere) ... you are not as bright as you may believe you are.

My statement is that the Policy was tried, but it didn't produce the outcome because the ideal that drove the policy is fundamentally wrong.

Policy must be FOLLOWED ... not just tried. Human nature is such ... some don't try as hard as they could. Thus ... some results may vary.

Those may be Human Rights, but not Natural Rights. Since Health, Employment and Education requires a 3rd party.

In New Zealand ... access to help for medical ... employment and education assistance ... is freely available. As it should be also in any Marxist Regime ... equal rights and all that ... for the good of their society etc.

Or do equal rights to the above not exist in a Marxist regime .. ??

It's not my quote, it's from Marx... So you'll have to take the Sexism up with him.

A bit of sexism I can live with ... but who gets to decide the urgency or importance of those needs .. ???

Do they really get more education or medical help they ask for ... or see/believe their urgency of either .. ??

Ironically, in your critique of Me, you've actually pointed out one of the many issues with Marx - namely Who DOES decide what someones Needs are?

So ... who actually does decide ... (asking for a friend)

Again, I agree with you - and all what you are saying is a further reinforcement of the problems with Marx's theory.

So ... when you stated ... "According to "HIS" needs" ... you have no idea how when or if ... those needs will be met ... ??

Or maybe just Marxist Policy to state that .. ?? (see above for my thoughts on POLICY)

Specifically Health Care - certain Genetic Groups have Genetic predispositions and higher risks to certain conditions. On that point, a case can be made from the Liberal position, that someone who has something over which they have no control (their Genetic make-up) shouldn't be 'penalized' on certain conditions by having the same standard of care as one who doesn't have a predisposition.

I think my world has crashed ... I might actually agree with that ... :sweatdrop

I agree that in general, Access to Public Services should not be dependent on a particular Group identity. Do you remember the furor that this raised: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/unlicensed-maori-drivers-exempt-from-fines/GHGVV3LKTJEYYK6KGEU6ZYRFIE/?

I'm old and my memory has the odd issue. But I remember that.

BUT ... would it happen in a Marxist society ... ??

So it's not like there isn't precedent to say that some social institutions haven't had issues with 'positive discrimination' (which is still discrimination and wrong) - and I will quite merely point you to the body of Academic literature that says that this is a good thing, and then I'll point to the chain of citations with Glee as it leads back to Marx.

When at times Social Institutions tell us smacking is evil ... I ask myself why that is so. Is it evil to punish for a wrong-doing .. ?? If a wrong-doing goes unpunished ... does that mean your wrong-doing should (will .. ??)continue to go unpunished .. ??

You miss the point. When accessing a Public service, we should both get the same level of Care. I've been to Hospitals, admittedly not with Bill Gates, but definitely with some people who are *quite* well off, they are treated by the Nurses and Doctors mostly the same as the person who is on the Benefit (The mostly being contingent on their Attitude, not their Social Status or any other group)

The same level of care ?? No.

Qualified medical help YES.

Qualified specialized medical help delivered in the same time frame NO. (Ever been on a "Waiting List" .. ?? I have. )

Would Bill Gates ever be on any waiting list .. ??? NO.

And I doubt you would have the same ability of access to specialized medical care as Bill Gates has.

And if you believe those in a Marxist Regime would have a health care system to match ours ... :facepalm:

See above. The more you try to hammer home this point, the more you are vindicating the point I was making that the Policy was implemented as per Marx, but the Outcome was vastly different.

It is now YOU that missed the point. See (well) above for my thoughts on the differences between Policy and Practice. Neither are LAW. It depends on how the differences Policy and (ACTUAL) practice are implemented.

It matters not, only that I'm free to make the decision as I see fit and as works best for me at the current time.

I was told you were a fat useless cunt ... which (if true) ... might have some bearing on that statement. I don't know you ... so can hardly comment on it's truth.

Just saying ...

And yet, I have recorded original Music, which by extension gives me automatic copyright in NZ.

Time stamped and certified by whom ... ??

Everything I write here - could be considered Original, so the fact I reply to you with my own words (which you acknowledge are mine) kinda disproves your point.

Do I send YOU a bill for every time you quote me .. ??

And your words are seldom original.

I hold the opinion that Capitalism is purely an Economic System, not a Political System. Often those who wish to see it as a Political System do so that they may attack on a Political Basis (generally Devotees of one aforementioned Marx)

The wording in your original post was misconstrued. My apologies.

In terms of whether it's a reality or not - My opinion is that the Capitalist free market gives the most amount of people the most amount of freedom, with perhaps the only exception being those who live a purely Anarchist lifestyle/outside of any system of Governance.

If they act and trade within the bounds of current existing NZ legislation and LAW .. they are bound to conform to such. Be it to their advantage ... or not.

Although you could make the argument that those people are oppressed by Nature/Life in a way that the Capitalist system isn't - but that's a different story.

Not necessarily ... but a GOOD story though ...

The ANCAPs would like a word.

Financial advantage comes in many forms ... and not always obvious.

Have to? No sir. They do not. They do so under the fiat of force from the Government (Taxation) and that when people have nothing to loose and everything to gain, it makes for tempting targets.

That was the area of "Force" used to support the existing NZ welfare system ... that I was meaning.

As for which am I? I've been a net-tax payer (that is, I pay more in Tax that I consume in services from the Government) since I was in my mid twenties.

I have on occasion sat on both sides of the Social welfare system ... both helping provide for ... and receiving.

I never felt the receiving should be a lifestyle I could live with.

Necessity can be a bitch ...

A Social Democracy (not the Socialist usurping of the word) is also known as the Nordic Model - basically it's a system of Government with High Taxation and a high focus on good quality public services.

It refers not to the make up or assembly of the governing system, but more towards the style of government - hence why it doesn't make your list.

New Zealand Public services seem more focused on profit margins and productivity ... rather than QUALITY PUBLIC SERVICE.

In plain terms ... everybody that needs help gets it. But seldom as much help as they feel they need ... or are (read: should be) entitled to.

None, because since the Queen is our Head of State, we are a Constitutional Monarchy

You need glasses ... the line six down below "Originally Posted by FJRider" ... ;)

As above, those words describe the architecture of the Governing structures, not the Policy objectives of the Government

I sit corrected.

And conversely, I think you should allow yours a little more.

I deal with reality. It often takes a good imagination to deal with that.

The best advice I could ever offer (regardless of the subject) ...

1.) Think outside the square. There is more room to move outside the square. Inside a square you are limited in movement.

2.) Logic is not a certainty. Just an assumption. Assume nothing if it is not a known fact.

3.) For every rule there are exceptions.

TheDemonLord

18th June 2021, 11:27

Remember the Antifa and BLM people wearing red hat disguises?

But when it's ANTIFA and BLM, it's RWNJ's in Black-block Disguise....

husaberg

18th June 2021, 16:03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYZIl2eiYzA
https://media3.giphy.com/media/l3q2XnJo1OVj2pgmQ/200.gif

pritch

19th June 2021, 11:45

Seems about right...

husaberg

19th June 2021, 12:00

Yet with Bengazi there was never any incitement by an US high-ranking politician for people to enter and kill the US govt officials and security.
Only that "not enough was done to protect the ambassador from terrorists. "
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es8HN17U4AALDtE.jpg

Shortly after the Benghazi attack, Secretary of State Clinton commissioned an independent Accountability Review Board to investigate, chaired by retired ambassador Thomas R. Pickering with vice-chair retired Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Michael Mullen. The Board released their final report on December 19, 2012. It made 29 recommendations to the State Department on how to improve its operations, which Clinton pledged to implement. As part of this investigation, four career State Department officials were criticized for denying requests for additional security at the facility prior to the attack. By the end of 2012, Eric J. Boswell, the Assistant Secretary of State for Diplomatic Security, resigned under pressure, while three others were suspended. None of the other Benghazi investigations identified wrongdoing by any individuals.

There were ten investigations into the Benghazi matter: one by the FBI; one by an independent board commissioned by the State Department; two by Democrat-controlled Senate Committees; and six by Republican-controlled House Committees. After the first five Republican investigations found no evidence of wrongdoing by senior Obama administration officials, Republicans in 2014 opened a sixth investigation, the House Select Committee on Benghazi, chaired by Trey Gowdy. This investigation also failed to find any evidence of wrongdoing by senior Obama administration officials

sugilite

19th June 2021, 12:12

So, to be clear - you are claiming that the BBC (with a demonstrable left-wing Bias) is promoting Fake news in favour of Trump?
I have already made it perfectly clear that I accept husa's well researched tsunami of stats over your wee bbc anomaly.

As I pointed out - Fauci was originally responsible telling people not to wear Masks, even begrudgingly admitted by various left-wing 'fact-checking' sites.

The opposition to the mandatory enforcement of Mask wearing rules, however, does not come from either Trump or Fauci - but from a principle of Freedom.
I cut Fauci some slack for chopping and changing as new information came to light regarding the virus. In fact after reading a sample of the emails that were recently released my respect for the man went up. He was given ample opportunities to bury the knife in Trump, but he chose not too and focused on doing his best for the American people in a terrible situation. What a shame Trump did the exact opposite.

Yes... As you know I help manage IT systems, I can assure you - I've had to investigate multiple charges to peoples cards for various reasons. The part you are missing is the proof that this is due to a deliberate action, as opposed to error.

You need another can of gloss.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2021/04/03/trump-campaign-reportedly-forced-to-refund-more-than-122-million-to-donors/?sh=1f5aa1c258a3

I mean from the beginning I said without user interaction, it wasn't going to get a lot of traction, the point is however that Trump has been written off as having no hope at achieving something, so I'd be a little hesitant about dismissing him out of hand.
We will see won't we, I'm sure you are just pushing your talking point and have pretty much the same view as me if push were to come to shove. If you seriously think he has a chance at producing a FB or Twitter killer, then your TDS is worse than I thought.

So, I will expand on this in my responses to FJR - but let me be clear - I do explicitly mean it.

I see FJ gave you further schooling in this area. I'm just not dedicated enough to delve deep into political ideologies when I know human greed will just shoot it all to hell - no matter the flavor being offered up.

Many people have been critical of Senator McCain, both before and after his Death. And the loudest of those critics have been Republicans.

However, https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/trump-attacks-mccain-i-like-people-who-werent-captured-120317

That was in 2015, McCain died in 2018, So he was very much alive and kicking.
I'm sure McCain respected that coming from captain bone spurs.

Well, hang on a second there Bud - there's something we need to get straight.

Do you believe in Equality of the Sexes? I'm going to presume you do. That is to say that I, You and Trump should treat Men and Women the same?

Would have the same exact view if Trumps shit was aimed at say - your wife? Look honey he is treating you to a lovely barrage of equality, what a guy!

I personally think the Planet and Humans are far more resilient and so even if we did manage to catastrophically fuck it up, we'd still survive and eventually thrive - it just might suck quite a lot in the short term.
Life is a lot more fragile than most humans think it is. I hope you are right.

pritch

19th June 2021, 13:00

Bloomberg is reporting that lawyers employed in the Trump administration are having trouble finding a new job. Nobody wants a former Trumper on their team it seems.
My heart bleeds.

Some of them may yet find employment defending themselves against Justice Dept charges. If there is a God, Barr will.

husaberg

19th June 2021, 16:26

I have already made it perfectly clear that I accept husa's well researched tsunami of stats over your wee bbc anomaly.
.

Trump supporters that ignore all clear evidence no matter how overwhelming yet cling to anything no matter how obscure that can help support their preconceived notions remind me of this.
349251

Then again when the kb trump supporter and appoligist who has zero legal or national security expertise claims to know more about the US law than a supreme court judge or more about US security than the FBI you have to question his sanity..................

The annual increases in GDP under Trump were broadly similar to what they were during the final six years under his predecessor, Barack Obama. And GDP growth under Trump was well below that of prior presidents.

If you adjust GDP to take account of population, the picture remains weak for Trump. Calculations by Burtless found that inflation-adjusted GDP per capita increased 1.9% annually under Trump, which makes this three-year period the 16th highest among the past 30 non-overlapping three-year periods — right about average compared with his predecessors.

The overall unemployment rate, however, decreased under Obama, with a steady decrease occurring in his second term. When Obama was inaugurated in Jan. 2009 the overall unemployment rate was 7.8% and when he left office in Jan. 2017 it was 4.7%, its lowest rate during his presidency.

under Trump the overall unemployment rate started at 4.7 and reached the highest rate since at least the 1940s, as it hit 14.7% in April 2020

sugilite

20th June 2021, 12:49

American politics - a study in hypocrisy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQq5xNsVHvg

Someone will be along on Monday with a can of gloss and a free pass for trumps utterances in the above :laugh:

pritch

20th June 2021, 15:07

Glenn Kirschner a former US prosecutor of some 30 years experience has commented on some quastions asked of insurgents being investigated for the events of January 6th.

One question was to the effect, Have you been in contact with anybody in Congress?

Kirshner says that's interesting because the FBI don't usually ask such a question unless they already know the answer. They will have the meta data from the subject's phone, they probably also have his emails. If he lies that's another charge, potentially an extended prison sentence. What is really interesting about that question though is that it implies the FBI are actually investigating politicians. The politicians who encouraged or helped facilitate the coup attempt are under investigation themselves.

Fucking good job. I hope he's right.

One of the Proud Boys is facing charges and the DoJ have lodged the court documents. The most notable charge is one of terrorism as defined in US law. It would seem that as charges are laid for others the charge of terrorism may not be uncommon. That also implies that the people who encouraged the events of Jan 6th could be charged with inciting terrorism.

Today is a good day.

You don't need to wade through all this, (5) (A) & (B) ii and iii show which way the wind is blowing.

§2331. Definitions
As used in this chapter—
(1) the term "international terrorism" means activities that—
(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;

(2) the term "national of the United States" has the meaning given such term in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act;
(3) the term "person" means any individual or entity capable of holding a legal or beneficial interest in property;
(4) the term "act of war" means any act occurring in the course of—
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin;

(5) the term "domestic terrorism" means activities that—
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and

(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States; and

(6) the term "military force" does not include any person that—
(A) has been designated as a—
(i) foreign terrorist organization by the Secretary of State under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189); or
(ii) specially designated global terrorist (as such term is defined in section 594.310 of title 31, Code of Federal Regulations) by the Secretary of State or the Secretary of the Treasury; or

(B) has been determined by the court to not be a "military force".
(Added Pub. L. 102–572, title X, §1003(a)(3), Oct. 29, 1992, 106 Stat. 4521; amended Pub. L. 107–56, title VIII, §802(a), Oct. 26, 2001, 115 Stat. 376; Pub. L. 115–253, §2(a), Oct. 3, 2018, 132 Stat. 3183.)

sugilite

21st June 2021, 11:02

Trumps inexperience in the job ensures the poor Iranians have a hardliner government for years to come.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/20/middleeast/iran-analysis-trump-raisi-cmd-intl/index.html

F5 Dave

21st June 2021, 13:06

The Shah was a dork and the US and Brits badly mishandled the situation trying to keep status quo because it suited them to believe it was possible. It would have been a good step to making amends.

At some stage financial incentives to stop militaristic states becoming more hardline (dangerous to themselves and others) and tend to feeding and employing their people has got to be a good investment.

pritch

21st June 2021, 15:12

The formerly anonymous Congressman Clyde has assured himself of a degree of notoriety.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwQVPTA3-Eg

Then we have a photograph of him manning a barricade to keep the 'tourists' away and another of him looking anything but calm and collected which is now deseredly a meme.

TheDemonLord

22nd June 2021, 10:33

I have already made it perfectly clear that I accept husa's well researched tsunami of stats over your wee bbc anomaly.

I'll come back to this in a separate post - with more than just the BBC - and I'll make a point of citing my sources from Left-leaning sites (so there can be no accusation of Pro-Trump interpretation).

I cut Fauci some slack for chopping and changing as new information came to light regarding the virus. In fact after reading a sample of the emails that were recently released my respect for the man went up. He was given ample opportunities to bury the knife in Trump, but he chose not too and focused on doing his best for the American people in a terrible situation. What a shame Trump did the exact opposite.

I've not said a whole lot about Fauci - if I'm being charitable, he seems to have tried to do his best in an evolving situation - but again what Fauci said one day and then recanted the next was never a concern of mine (except perhaps the Wuhan lab theory suddenly becoming not a conspiracy when it's said by Biden and not Trump...).

What concerned me is mandating behavior, from the State, based on dubious evidence that infringes on an Individuals Rights and Freedoms.

You need another can of gloss.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2021/04/03/trump-campaign-reportedly-forced-to-refund-more-than-122-million-to-donors/?sh=1f5aa1c258a3

Interesting Article - the one thing that particularly caught my eye was the fact that the Payments were handled by a 3rd party...

We will see won't we, I'm sure you are just pushing your talking point and have pretty much the same view as me if push were to come to shove. If you seriously think he has a chance at producing a FB or Twitter killer, then your TDS is worse than I thought.

If you'd asked me this 10 years ago, I'd have agreed with you. Even 5 years ago I'd probably still agreed. However in that time, there has been a marked increase in Censorship by the likes of Google, Facebook, Twitter et al. against Conservative positions.

Take a topic like Abortion for example - for the record, I'm pro-choice (and in case you are wondering - I consider that a Feotus becomes a 'life' when it's capable of surviving outside of the Womb) - Therefore I disagree with the absolutist Pro-Life argument (that Life begins at conception). Despite my disagreement, I would never want the Pro-Life advocates to be subject to invisible and arbitrary censorship with no oversight or means to have your case judged and appealed (like there is in a Law Court).

The constant tampering with recommended algorithms to appeal to Left-wing sensibilities has alienated a large number of Conservative content creators. If we take the most extreme example - Alex Jones (who I have said on many occasions that I think he's an absolute Cunt) - where does that person and that audience go? We've seen the likes of Parler, Gab, Minds, Bitchute etc. start to grow organically and we've also seen that as FB, Twitter, YT etc. enact more censorship their memberbase has increased.

What is missing however from those platforms is a critical mass of users and a flagship user. You may remember when Twitter was starting to get introduced, Twitter was paying High profile individuals (Celebrities) big money to use Twitter - these individuals were the Flagship users that encouraged the regular user to start using it.

Getting back to Trumpbook or Trumper or YouTrump - If Trump could get a functional social Media platform built and If it was structured in such a way as to conform with principles of Free Speech and If it had a number of high profile users (and Trump would certainly be a high profile user) - then it's possible.

I see FJ gave you further schooling in this area. I'm just not dedicated enough to delve deep into political ideologies when I know human greed will just shoot it all to hell - no matter the flavor being offered up.

Schooling? Most of FJ's critiques validate my position, not contradict or refute them. When I've got a bit more time (soon...) I'll reply to FJ.

However on what you've said - two points:

The first is a paraphrase that I think applies to your statement that 'I'm not dedicated enough':

You may not spend your time thinking about Political Ideologies, but Political Ideologies spend ALL of their time thinking about YOU

And the second is on Human Greed - Enter the Capitalist system: If you want something, you have to do things for other people - Selfish Altruism that self-motivates the individual to do things for other people so that those other people will exchange their resources - and thus if everyone buys into the system (Pun fully intended) then it generates a prosperous Society.

Would have the same exact view if Trumps shit was aimed at say - your wife? Look honey he is treating you to a lovely barrage of equality, what a guy!

If he insults my wife the same way he insults a man, that's equality.

Just like it's equality if he receives a tap on the nose for doing it in (from Me or Her...) the same way as if anyone else said it...

Again, the point here is that if you are equally rude to everyone, that's not discriminatory nor is it evidence of a particular dislike of one group. It may not be nice or polite, but if you tried everyone badly, it is equality.

Life is a lot more fragile than most humans think it is. I hope you are right.

If anything, I think Life is far more Robust that Humans think it is - I mean we have the Eskimos/Inuits/whatever-the-correct-term-is, We have Bacteria that lives off on Sulfur in the bottom of the Ocean.

Of course, it might not be Life as we know it, or want it, but it would be Life.

pritch

22nd June 2021, 19:50

Bill O'Reilly and Donald J Trump have announced a speaking tour for December. That seems a little odd because Trump is claiming that he'll be "reinstated" as president in August.

For anyone who may not be aware, O'Reilly was the top rated host on FOX until the channel and he parted ways over the latest sexual harrasment claims he was facing. In one instance he had to pay US$32 million to Lisa Wiehl, another FOX host. What the hell do you do to a woman to have to pay her 32 million?

Oh, and some tickets on this magical mystery tour cost $7,500 a head.

Update:

On checking ticket prices the range is from $100 to 7,500. Not that I'm going.

pritch

22nd June 2021, 20:58

As time passes we get more glimpses into the alternate reality inhabited by Trump and his followers.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/06/21/trump-reportedly-considered-sending-covid-infected-american-tourists-to-guantanamo/?sh=476d14586ef9

husaberg

23rd June 2021, 01:21

Bill O'Reilly and Donald J Trump have announced a speaking tour for December. That seems a little odd because Trump is claiming that he'll be "reinstated" as president in August.

For anyone who may not be aware, O'Reilly was the top rated host on FOX until the channel and he parted ways over the latest sexual harrasment claims he was facing. In one instance he had to pay US$32 million to Lisa Wiehl, another FOX host. What the hell do you do to a woman to have to pay her 32 million?

Oh, and some tickets on this magical mystery tour cost $7,500 a head.

Wiehl's complaints "included allegations of repeated harassment, a non-consensual sexual relationship and the sending of gay pornography and other sexually explicit material to her." The story cited "people briefed on the matter."

https://www.thewrap.com/bill-oreilly-fox-news-lis-wiehl-sexual-harassment-nonconsensual-sex/

pritch

23rd June 2021, 11:58

https://www.thewrap.com/bill-oreilly-fox-news-lis-wiehl-sexual-harassment-nonconsensual-sex/

My question was really intended as rhetorical but OK. So Bill expects us to believe he paid Wiehl 32 million to spare his children embarrassment? His children are younger than I thought, but they already had to give evidence against their father in a domestic abuse case so maybe they were tough enough to handle it.

That's an impressive list of colleagues Bill paid out in harrassment settlements, six of them. One of the others was $9 million the other amounts are unknown. It would have been soooo much cheaper to use upmarket prostitutes.

Grumph

23rd June 2021, 14:21

My question was really intended as rhetorical but OK. So Bill expects us to believe he paid Wiehl 32 million to spare his children embarrassment? His children are younger than I thought, but they already had to give evidence against their father in a domestic abuse case so maybe they were tough enough to handle it.

That's an impressive list of colleagues Bill paid out in harrassment settlements, six of them. One of the others was $9 million the other amounts are unknown. It would have been soooo much cheaper to use upmarket prostitutes.

Without wishing to belabor the point, I thought that was the job definition of Fox newsreaders and "pundits"......

pritch

23rd June 2021, 14:53

Without wishing to belabor the point, I thought that was the job definition of Fox newsreaders and "pundits"......

In addition to O'Reilly there was Ailes who also had to quit Fox over harrassment claims, so you may well be right.

We reportedly gave citizenship to Matt Lauer of NBC who had a button under his desk so that he could lock the door behind whoever was unfortunate enough to be in there with him. But OK he was rich, so welcome to NZ Matt.

pritch

25th June 2021, 09:10

Rudy Giuliani's licence to prectice law in New York has been suspended temporarily pending further investigation.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/06/24/politics/rudy-giuliani-suspended-law/index.html

F5 Dave

25th June 2021, 13:24

That's a pity 'Cause he sure needed practice.

pritch

26th June 2021, 14:11

Multiple sources reporting that the Trump Organisation could be indicted as early as next week.

The Justice Dept is defending Trump in one case and there are indications they may defend him in others. This on the grounds that he was performing his duties as president. The Trump Organisation was not president so it's hard to see how the Justice Dept could get involved. Of course if the DA does incict Trump Org that puts his kids in the crosshairs as well.

husaberg

26th June 2021, 15:29

My question was really intended as rhetorical but OK. So Bill expects us to believe he paid Wiehl 32 million to spare his children embarrassment? His children are younger than I thought, but they already had to give evidence against their father in a domestic abuse case so maybe they were tough enough to handle it.

That's an impressive list of colleagues Bill paid out in harrassment settlements, six of them. One of the others was $9 million the other amounts are unknown. It would have been soooo much cheaper to use upmarket prostitutes.
From what i understand that sort of sexual behavior where they force the others into sex by indimidation factors like it seems him and some of Weinstein's victims is more about showing power than just sex.

sugilite

26th June 2021, 20:49

Trump loses to Biden yet again - Oafffffff!
https://news.yahoo.com/bidens-approval-rating-rises-56-120546151.html

pritch

28th June 2021, 14:20

In case anyone was wondering?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/28/new-york-prosecutors-set-deadline-for-trump-on-legal-action-report?utm_term=faf2d74d997ae19c73689df742793604&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayAUS&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTAU_email

pritch

1st July 2021, 14:27

Multiple news reports state that indictments have been laid against the Trump Organisation and long time CEO Weisselberg. The indictments remain sealed until Thursday US time.

It's unlikely that these charges will be all that arise out of this grand jury hearing, the hearings are about one month into a scheduled six months. It seems possible that this is more about pressuring Weisselberg to flip on Trump.

F5 Dave

2nd July 2021, 13:06

You couldn't invent a better name. I'm rereading the fabulous The way of the Weasel , Dilbert management book. He would have creamed himself to include that guy somehow.

pritch

3rd July 2021, 15:52

The New York DA and AG are thought to be considering charging Trump under anti-racketeering laws, they have the guy who wrote the book on the NY anti-racketerring laws on their team. It would seem that one of the lawyers on Trump's team is there to counter this if it eventuates. He has extensive history defending Mafia members.

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/12/politics/who-is-alan-futerfas/index.html

husaberg

3rd July 2021, 17:24

He’s Teflon Don no more, at least when it comes to court.
Donald Trump, no longer insulated by claims of presidential protections, faces a host of increasingly serious legal problems in some of the US’s most high-profile courts, including both criminal investigation and civil litigation.

When Donald Trump was president, his lawyers repeatedly claimed that presidential immunity shielded him from civil litigation unrelated to his official duties, among other legal actions. Court after court rejected that position, with various judges ruling “no one is above the law” – though his numerous appeals delayed litigation.

The Washington Post reported on 25 May that Manhattan prosecutors had convened the grand jury that is “expected to decide whether to indict Donald Trump, other executives at his company or the business itself, should prosecutors present the panel with criminal charges”.
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell nonetheless made it clear he still felt Trump was responsible, saying: "
There is no question that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of that day."

Giuliani told the crowd "let's have trial by combat... I'll be darned if they're going to take our free and fair vote."
Trump, who then took the stage, urged people to march to the Capitol. More than 200 people have been charged with federal offences in the assault on Congress, which left five dead.

The FBI and federal prosecutors have been increasingly focusing on whether members of far-right extremist groups conspired to impede Congress from certifying President Joe Biden's election victory.
More than 18 people associated with the Proud Boys have been charged so far for their alleged role during the riots.

Other issues

Manhattan prosecutors’ inquiry into Trump and his business concerns has hit an “advanced stage” after proceeding for more than two years. More, it indicates that Manhattan prosecutors believe they have discovered evidence of a crime.
Meanwhile, the New York state attorney general has ramped up its investigation. “We have informed the Trump Organization that our investigation into the organization is no longer purely civil in nature. We are now actively investigating the Trump Organization in a criminal capacity, along with the Manhattan DA
Trump has been under investigation by New York’s top prosecutors for three years – in large part thanks to Cohen, once his trusted lawyer. Cohen – who once said he would “take a bullet” for Trump – turned on the former president as he was sentenced to 36 months in prison for crimes including facilitating illegal payments to silence two women who allegedly had sex with Trump.

On the surface, the Weisselberg charges did seem like “smaller fish”. In an interview with Politico, Trump’s lawyer Ronald Fischetti said: “It’s like the Shakespeare play Much Ado About Nothing. This is so small that I can’t believe I’m going to have to try a case like this.”
But surfaces can be deceptive.
After three years of subpoenas, supreme court hearings and existential legal rows about the legality of charging a president of the United States with wrongdoing, New York’s fearsome prosecutorial team have charged a little-known 73-year-old accountant with defrauding taxpayers of $1.7m over 15 years. That is big money for most people, but not an amount that would worry Trump, who Forbes calculates is worth $2.4bn.

The US Department of Justice, which is representing Trump, had claimed that he should be considered a regular federal employee and that his statements fell within the parameters of his employment. As such, the DoJ contended, Trump was protected by the “Federal Tort Claims Act” – meaning its lawyers could represent him.

The judge in the case did not agree that Trump was a regular federal worker, nor that these statements were part of his work.
Trumps lawyers have tried to halt cases, citing presidential protection from the legal action. Trump’s legal team appealed to New York’s highest court after suffering prior legal defeats related to the immunity issue. On 30 March, the court ultimately rejected this appeal, saying “the issues presented have become moot” given that he is no longer president.

various......

F5 Dave

3rd July 2021, 18:03

Lock her up. Lock her up.

Sorry I got confused . 😕

pritch

3rd July 2021, 22:12

Trump's problems are quite complicated. Apparently some people think the recent charges will cover all of his wrong doing. Not so.

The charges faced by his CFO and the Trump Organisation are specifically related to tax evasion. The grand jury is one month in to a six month hearing so more charges are likely, but they will be specifically tax or fraud related. Anybody who still thinks he is unlikely to be guilty has clearly forgotten that his "university" was found by the court to be fraudulent, and his charity foundation was shut down by the court because of fraud. Those events were not accidents, more like Trump's SOP.

As time passes increasing evidence comes to light of his corruption in office. Sadly much of it will be written off as "not technically illegal". Somebody suggested when he was elected that those words would sum up his presidency. And so it came to pass...

I did like one detail recently reported: White House staff who wanted to avoid Trump for whatever reason just went up to the next floor. They knew there was no possibility of Trump walking up the stairs.

R650R

4th July 2021, 16:37

I just love how people can’t let go of Trumps legacy of achievement. You think you guys would all be in Biden thread posting of his umm eerrr.....well... yeah....

https://youtu.be/y8areSFyqYM

husaberg

4th July 2021, 18:02

Posts

I just love how people can’t let go of Trumps legacy of achievement.

trumps legacy of achievements.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::l augh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

U.S. budget deficit hits all-time high of $3.1 trillion...
The only American president to be impeached twice.The third commander-in-chief in US history to be impeached
Trump’s legacy will be defined by his disastrous handling of COVID-19.....
Thousands are dying daily from the COVID-19 pandemic, the economy is badly damaged and political violence has surged.
Trump’s refusal to concede defeat to Joe Biden.
The Dow fell a record 2,013.76 points to 23,851.02
Confirmed a guy with multiple sexual assault allegations to the supreme court
Failed to overturn Obamacare despite sentate majorities.
Misspent billions building a small section of wall no one needed. he declared a state of emergency to steal defense money to do it.
Pick a measure, almost any measure, and the trajectory of his first three years was identical to that of Barack Obama’s final three years: unemployment, manufacturing, wages, you name it. And whereas Obama passed a successful economy to Trump, Trump bequeaths a wreck to his successor.

FJRider

4th July 2021, 20:30

I just love how people can’t let go of Trumps legacy of achievement. You think you guys would all be in Biden thread posting of his umm eerrr.....well... yeah....

I personally think Trumps achievement was proving that ... with the right backing ... any US citizen can be President if the US of A.

Let the children dream ... and the children will try.

pritch

4th July 2021, 21:44

Trump's achievements?
Lost the popular vote - twice.
Lost Congress.
Lost the Senate.
Lost the White House.

husaberg

4th July 2021, 21:58

Trump's achievements?
Lost the popular vote - twice.
Lost Congress.
Lost the Senate.
Lost the White House.

But it does show what someone can do with a small loan of 120 million dollars and the backing of the Koch brohers if you use racism to garner support.

FJRider

4th July 2021, 22:01

Trump's achievements?
Lost the popular vote - twice.
Lost Congress.
Lost the Senate.
Lost the White House.

He got to be President of the USA. Could YOU achieve that .. ??

pritch

5th July 2021, 09:26

He got to be President of the USA. Could YOU achieve that .. ??

No, I wasn't born there. Thank God.

South Park summed it up when they pointed out that the Yanks only ever get to choose between a turd sandwich and a giant douche.

Looking back, the two final candidates are all too often very uninspiring people. (I know there are often other candidates, Greens, Libertarians, or other similar nutcases, but they have zero chance of getting elected.)

sugilite

5th July 2021, 11:18

FJRider

5th July 2021, 11:32

Looking back, the two final candidates are all too often very uninspiring people. (I know there are often other candidates, Greens, Libertarians, or other similar nutcases, but they have zero chance of getting elected.)

So what got him elected as President ... ?? Aside from his money ... ??

TheDemonLord

5th July 2021, 11:56

I'm replying late to this one because as I have noticed on our previous convos of this ilk, your credibility slides downwards sharply as you cling onto tiny ridiculous anomilies in a desperate bid to support your own position. Thus my priority of reply has subsequently taken a dive.

As is your want and right, I too have been rather busy of later (and starting to get back to Normality) - there's several posts in this thread that I would like respond in full to and haven't been able to do so.

No point, your findings of wee anomalies will not surpass the avalanche of quality info from Husa.

An interesting comment... Because that is a statement of absolute faith.

"We have the Bible, the One true Book and no Anomalies will surpass the Word of our Lord and Saviour Gawd"

Of course, I will still compile a list - just not at the moment.

As are most payments, see that rotting corpse in the corner? That is your credibility decomposing? Why? Because despite the avalanche of evidence Trumps mob despicably charged multiple donors cards you just cannot even begin to admit this is outright fraud. Apparently "other people do it" mints another free pass for the cretin.

There are 2 distinct concepts here.

One is the automatic enrolling in subscription based repeat payments. I've been happy to agree that it is not something I like, but I've pointed out that this is now a common thing. Doesn't mean I'm happy that it's common, but to pillory someone for doing something that is a common business practice is not charitable.

On the double payments issue - You are happy to ascribe to Malice things that are far more likely to be the result of technical errors. You've stated your reasons for doing so - but what is lacking is hard proof that either entity was deliberately double-billing.

Show me an email or internal Memo where it says they were aware of the issue but ignored it in order to garnish more funds - then perhaps I might move slightly - but as yet - such evidence has been distinctly lacking.

When Trumps says he could shoot someone and still not lose voters is a reference to how his blindly loyal supporters will always back him no matter what. You are the poster child for his sentiments.

Why are we bringing up a 5 year old, obviously hyperbolic comment? Shall I bring up Biden's F-15's and Nukes comment (which is much more topical) if we are going down the path of 'US Presidents issuing veiled threats towards the populace'?

Thin skinned Trump allowing free speech on his platform :laugh: :laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:

Well, in Gettr's ToS - they state that Freedom of Speech is one of their Core Values - so we'll see what happens.

I do not see him racing to agree with you there :lol:

Many of the questions he asked in his last post boil down to the following 'This is what was intended, this is what they did - but this is what happened and therefore you are wrong' - which is exactly my critique of the system 'Yes, They did apply it as per the theory, but reality worked out vastly different, that's why it's so wrong' However as above - that is one of the posts I wish to revisit.

Until the planets resources run out that is - it cannot support unbridled endless capitalism.

What do you mean when you say the resources run out? That they are sent off into outerspace and no longer accessible? I know what you are getting at - but I disagree with the premise.

As we consume resources, they are changed from one form to another - The various Atoms/Molecules etc. are still there. So it will come down to either a form of recycling or choice which leads to:

If we assume a total free market approach, we will get to a point where Supply and Demand equalize at a given price point. If we assume that we've mined all the Iron Ore in all of the planet, then there are 2 things that will happen. Existing structures containing Iron/Steel will start to increase in value to the point that recycling them become economically viable OR the Price of Steel Structures will be so prohibitively expensive that only those items which absolutely necessitate Iron will use it and everything else will have to find alternatives.

I personally believe that as we approach that point though, the market pressure for demand will spur innovation (as it always does) to either alternative tech, recycling or similar when the price-point gets sufficiently high to make it profitable.

We are starting to see this in some markets (Copper for example) where the cost of extracting Copper from the Earth is comparable with the cost of recycling existing Copper.

So to wrap up - when you say the resources run out - they don't run out, they are only changed from one form to the next and if we approach a point where we have 100% utilization (which I highly doubt) of a given resource, we will then have to make choices, via the mechanism of the Free Market as to where and how we leverage said resources.

See reference to Trump shooting someone and not losing loyal subjects - has your cane for the visually impaired arrived from amazon yet? I do not believe you could bring yourself to ever admit anything Trump says is actually bad. you just keep coming up with ludicrous scenarios where your hero is not at fault. Such scenarios that only make sense in the most seriously of afflicted TDS sufferers minds.

As above - if you want to go down that road, I'm more than happy to raise F-15s and Nukes from Biden (And the AFT... not the ATF... According to Biden) - Somehow, hyperbole about shooting an individual pales in comparison to baiting literally half the country into a Civil War (and the implied threat of using Nuclear weapons on your own populace)

(But y'know - the Tree of Liberty - Blood of Patriots and Tyrants - another quote Joe managed to mangle spectacularly....)

sugilite

5th July 2021, 14:03

Because that is a statement of absolute faith.
Not at all, he used solid sources, you on the other hand are trying to say the economy doubled under trump.

There are 2 distinct concepts here.

One is the automatic enrolling in subscription based repeat payments. I've been happy to agree that it is not something I like, but I've pointed out that this is now a common thing. Doesn't mean I'm happy that it's common, but to pillory someone for doing something that is a common business practice is not charitable.

On the double payments issue - You are happy to ascribe to Malice things that are far more likely to be the result of technical errors. You've stated your reasons for doing so - but what is lacking is hard proof that either entity was deliberately double-billing.
He set out to hide the recurring, then multi dipped on too many occasions for it to be an anomaly. I'm sick and tired of your bullshit answers here, your guy is extremely dishonest in this scenario no matter how many coats you of whitewash you apply. so it is my last go at this subject.

Why are we bringing up a 5 year old, obviously hyperbolic comment? Shall I bring up Biden's F-15's and Nukes comment (which is much more topical) if we are going down the path of 'US Presidents issuing veiled threats towards the populace'?
Because he was talking about the likes of YOU when he made it.

Many of the questions he asked in his last post boil down to the following 'This is what was intended, this is what they did - but this is what happened and therefore you are wrong' - which is exactly my critique of the system 'Yes, They did apply it as per the theory, but reality worked out vastly different, that's why it's so wrong' However as above - that is one of the posts I wish to revisit.
Good luck with that, I'll enjoy watching you get another spanking when you do :laugh:

What do you mean when you say the resources run out? That they are sent off into outerspace and no longer accessible?
Not every resource can be recycled. I do agree that necessity is the mother of creation. But what a fucking mess we have on our hands right now.

As above - if you want to go down that road, I'm more than happy to raise F-15s and Nukes from Biden (And the AFT... not the ATF... According to Biden) - Somehow, hyperbole about shooting an individual pales in comparison to baiting literally half the country into a Civil War (and the implied threat of using Nuclear weapons on your own populace)

(But y'know - the Tree of Liberty - Blood of Patriots and Tyrants - another quote Joe managed to mangle spectacularly....)
Sure if you like, just sounds like you are going to hammer Biden for something you would assign an instant free pass for Trump had he done it. You know, It was just hyperbole, he did not mean it literally yadda, yadda. Slippery slope and all that. Also, try to remember just because I am a never trumper, does not make me a dem lover.

Saved you the trouble Biden “Well, the tree of liberty is not [watered with] the blood of patriots, what’s happened is that there never been, if you want, if you think you need to have weapons to take on the government, you need F-15s and maybe some nuclear weapons,” Biden continued. “The point is that there’s always been the ability to limit, rationally limit, the type of weapon that can be owned, and who can own it.”

It would appear to me he is saying that if you want to take on the government, you will need more than the weapons he is looking to get banned - or thereabouts.
I'm not surprised you are trying to project he was "baiting" half the country into civil war. The same poster who gave trump a free pass on jan 6th because he mentioned the word "peacefully" one single time along with an avalanche of words designed to incite. You my friend are an absolute riot :lol: :laugh:

TheDemonLord

5th July 2021, 15:03

Not at all, he used solid sources, you on the other hand are trying to say the economy doubled under trump.

I said the rate of growth doubled...

He set out to hide the recurring, then multi dipped on too many occasions for it to be an anomaly. I'm sick and tired of your bullshit answers here, your guy is extremely dishonest in this scenario no matter how many coats you of whitewash you apply. so it is my last go at this subject.

So you have emails/bug reports/Memos/Anything to back this up, yes?

Something that shows actual intent to defraud, yes?

Not conjecture based on circumstantial facts and your view of Trump?

Because if you had such proof, it would be plastered across every single left-wing outlet from now until the Rapture and given how Loudly they bleated about things like the Impeachment, I think I've got a reasonably strong case to say that no such evidence either exists or has come to public knowledge.

Because he was talking about the likes of YOU when he made it.

Okay, we'll cross this bridge below.

Good luck with that, I'll enjoy watching you get another spanking when you do :laugh:

I'm sure you will, but if you would also read the Academic literature that backs the points I'm making you'll realise that your enjoyment isn't as satisfying as you first thought. A lot more depressing, in fact.

Not every resource can be recycled. I do agree that necessity is the mother of creation. But what a fucking mess we have on our hands right now.

Disagreee on the first part - from 2 positions.

The first being Absolute Pedantry - but unless the Atoms that comprise the resource are destroyed (and even then Matter can be converted to Energy and hypothetically vice-versa), then in 'theory' it should be possible to recycle everything

The only resource I could perhaps grant you isn't recyclable, is Time - but then I ask from which perspective - an individual who gets maybe 80 odd years? But in terms of Life as an overall - hundreds of Millions of years leaves me in disagreement.

In terms of Mess - Do we? Who is it that is saying we have an absolute mess on our hands? Do they have an ulterior motive for convincing you that we have a Mess on our hands? Are they trying to create the illusion of Crisis in order to push an alternate Political and Economic system (that has failed each time)?

Why is it that the Green Party (both here, the UK and other places) always end up as the Communist Party?

Sure if you like, just sounds like you are going to hammer Biden for something you would assign an instant free pass for Trump had he done it. You know, It was just hyperbole, he did not mean it literally yadda, yadda. Slippery slope and all that. Also, try to remember just because I am a never trumper, does not make me a dem lover.

I know you aren't a Dem lover - you wish to nail Trump for saying he could shoot a single person dead and still be popular - I consider that Hyperbole.

You want me to take it seriously, okay fair enough, so let's compare it against another statement that should also be taken as Hyperbole (I didn't bring it up prior) - by the Man with his finger on the Nuclear button.

One person shot in 5th avenue vs 'If you attack us, we'll nuke you' - If we apply the standard you wish to apply against Trump evenly to both sides - The Democrats come out looking like tyrannical monsters whereas Trump only comes out looking vaguely bad (in comparison).

So I asked if you wanted to go down this road - you clearly did - I was happy to write both statements off as clear figures of speech.

Saved you the trouble Biden “Well, the tree of liberty is not [watered with] the blood of patriots, what’s happened is that there never been, if you want, if you think you need to have weapons to take on the government, you need F-15s and maybe some nuclear weapons,” Biden continued. “The point is that there’s always been the ability to limit, rationally limit, the type of weapon that can be owned, and who can own it.”

So first let's get the factual components out the way.

Biden butchered the Jefferson quote - which for a US President should be borderline inexcusable.

Next up is that he is historically wrong about the 2nd Amendment - Private Citizens could and did own Cannons, Warships etc. Let me be clear - Every weapon that was available to the Government when the 2A was written and signed was available to the Private Citizen (for the appropriate cost)

Either Biden is ignorant of the historical facts surrounding the 2nd Amendment (which again, as a US President should be inexcusable) or he's being deceptive (given the context, more likely) and I've even been charitable and not added in a potential Mental decline jab.

It would appear to me he is saying that if you want to take on the government, you will need more than the weapons he is looking to get banned - or thereabouts.
I'm not surprised you are trying to project he was "baiting" half the country into civil war. The same poster who gave trump a free pass on jan 6th because he mentioned the word "peacefully" one single time along with an avalanche of words designed to incite. You my friend are an absolute riot :lol: :laugh:

But as per President Biden - if you want to overthrow the US Government, you need F15s and Nukes, right? So whatever happened on Jan 6th cannot have been an insurrection - no F15s or Nukes were involved....

Then we have to consider what his intent was - and I'm going to use your words:

"if you want to take on the government, you will need more than the weapons he is looking to get banned"

Then, there's absolutely no reason for the Government to ban them, is there? Clearly not a threat (as per Biden).

And it's doubly hilarious because the Democrats have long held up the argument that the AR platform is a Weapon of War and so should only be used by the Military, yet in the same breath - they are now saying it's innefective as a Weapon of War... I mean take your pick - which is it? Is it an effective tool or not?

Now the funny part is, I actually semi-agree with what Biden is saying - that if the US Government DID turn tyrannical, the level of Firepower available to it (assuming no mass desertions - which considering it would be a gross violation of the Posse Comitatus act, is unlikely) would be very one-sided - but that Threat is based on the willingness to Nuke your own citizens.

So I'll leave it at this - I'm happy to interpret what Biden said as clearly Hyperbole, he doesn't want to actually nuke the Citizenry of the US but in order for me to hold that interpretation you will likewise have to hold the position that Trump doesn't want to shoot anyone in 5th Avenue either.

But if you insist on taking the literal interpretation, then that's fair - I'd choose the Person who shoots a single person over the Person that Nukes their country any day of the week - so I ask - which would you prefer?

pritch

5th July 2021, 17:12

So what got him elected as President ... ?? Aside from his money ... ??

I'm not sure he's got *that* much money. He still owes the odd million from his hate rallies and his election campaign. He was just refused use of one venue because of unpaid bills from his previous visit.

The news media were a huge help. FOX "News" brainwashing a large chunk of the population, the rest of the media chasing clicks and dollars rather than actual news.
Most appear to have learned nothing.

Economic anxiety was considered to be a significant factor - until it was realised that economic anxiety was just old fashioned racism. Racism was a major factor.

The electoral college got him elected, Clinton won more votes than Trump. Gerrymandering was a factor.

No one thing got him elected, multiple influences contributed. It was definitely not that he was smart, honest, or had a good reputation. None of those applied.

husaberg

5th July 2021, 18:15

I'm not sure he's got *that* much money. He still owes the odd million from his hate rallies and his election campaign. He was just refused use of one venue because of unpaid bills from his previous visit.

The news media were a huge help. FOX "News" brainwashing a large chunk of the population, the rest of the media chasing clicks and dollars rather than actual news.
Most appear to have learned nothing.

Economic anxiety was considered to be a significant factor - until it was realised that economic anxiety was just old fashioned racism. Racism was a major factor.

The electoral college got him elected, Clinton won more votes than Trump. Gerrymandering was a factor.

No one thing got him elected, multiple influences contributed. It was definitely not that he was smart, honest, or had a good reputation. None of those applied.

Running against a woman no really one liked sure helped....

pritch

5th July 2021, 19:23

Running against a woman no really one liked sure helped....

True. She was the second most unpopular candidate ever, but she ran a lacklustre campaign and lost to the most unpopular candidate ever. I don't even think she knew why she was running beyond some vague notion that it was her turn.

Some rated her "the most qualified" candidate ever, but by the time you get to that point there must be baggage. Too much baggage as it turned out.

FJRider

5th July 2021, 20:05

I'm not sure he's got *that* much money. He still owes the odd million from his hate rallies and his election campaign. He was just refused use of one venue because of unpaid bills from his previous visit.

Ownership of various properties and business's can't hurt. Interest rates on money he has might be more than penalty rates on money owed (if even such penalty rates exist).

The news media were a huge help. FOX "News" brainwashing a large chunk of the population, the rest of the media chasing clicks and dollars rather than actual news.
Most appear to have learned nothing.

And promoting their own brand as well. What could possibly go wrong .. ??

Economic anxiety was considered to be a significant factor - until it was realised that economic anxiety was just old fashioned racism. Racism was a major factor.

I thought it was the "Make America Great Again" campaign ...

The electoral college got him elected, Clinton won more votes than Trump. Gerrymandering was a factor.

The Electoral College decisively confirmed Joe Biden as that nation's next president. It's what happens when the Electoral College do NOT elect a president ... that the fun begins ...

No one thing got him elected, multiple influences contributed. It was definitely not that he was smart, honest, or had a good reputation. None of those applied.

He got plenty of tv time ... before/during and after his term. He can add that job to his CV.

Viking01

5th July 2021, 20:09

I said the rate of growth doubled...

I keep seeing you state that the rate of US growth increased (doubled) over the course of the Trump administration, but I'd like to query that statement a little.

If you meant "economic growth", then adjusted US GDP figures might not support that point e.g.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/188165/annual-gdp-growth-of-the-united-states-since-1990/

I don't see either a long term doubling in % growth, or any significant difference from figures for the preceding Obama years.

But if you meant that the US stock market (e.g. Dow Jones Average Industrial Index) doubled during the Trump period, then I'd be inclined to agree:

https://knoema.com/jhxfibc/dow-jones-industrial-average-historical-prices-2007-2020

Even if you meant share market growth, I'd still have to question the significance (productive nature) of the increase in share market valuation over that period, given:

- Changes in corporate tax policies (plus tax breaks given predominantly to the top 10% of the population)
- Share buybacks by major corporates (which simply inflated stock market prices)
- Increased military spending (progressive increases in US annual military budgets)
- Increases in pricing of services by corporates (as the US economy slowly started recovery after the main Covid impact ). Most specifically finance, insurance and real estate sectors.
- Increases in housing purchase and rental costs
- Speculators investing heavily in futures for commodities such as copper, aluminium and oil (hoping to cash in on future increases in demand for those commodities)

Even if the US economy was as rosy as some have tried to portray, you'd still have to have some concerns about actual economic state of health and ongoing sustainability, given:

(i) ongoing increases in US external debt

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/external-debt (select 10Y or 25Y button)

(ii) recapitalisation of major US banks by the FED during 2019

https://wallstreetonparade.com/2021/03/more-than-a-year-later-americans-have-no-idea-where-9-trillion-of-fed-money-went/

(iii) levels of personal US household debt

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-state-of-household-debt-in-america/

(iv) increasing austerity and inequality

https://time.com/5888024/50-trillion-income-inequality-america/

pritch

5th July 2021, 20:18

Ownership of various properties and business's can't hurt. Interest rates on money he has might be more than penalty rates on money owed (if even such penalty rates exist).

"Ownership" might need some defining in this instance. It was Russian money bought most of the properties, all of which are bleeding cash, but whether it was loaned to him or he was a front for a money laundering operation remains to be seen.

F5 Dave

5th July 2021, 20:23

Make America Grate (sp) again translated into make America Great for whites like it was perceived in the 70s, 80s.

sugilite

6th July 2021, 11:31

Are you OK? This is the most ill disciplined, poorly thought out post I have ever seen from you.

I said the rate of growth doubled...
Did not even come close, as Viking pointed out.

So you have emails/bug reports/Memos/Anything to back this up, yes?

Something that shows actual intent to defraud, yes?

Not conjecture based on circumstantial facts and your view of Trump?

Because if you had such proof, it would be plastered across every single left-wing outlet from now until the Rapture and given how Loudly they bleated about things like the Impeachment, I think I've got a reasonably strong case to say that no such evidence either exists or has come to public knowledge.
So, you do not want to acknowledge electoral fraud despite a head spinning amount of court cases and scrutiny due to some small obscure anomalies, but cannot see fraud when in plain sight when comparing dem refunds and the statistically MUCH higher trump campaign ones. If those numbers were reversed between the parties, I don't need to guess what you would be saying then.
what you are doing is requiring me to find evidence that is not publicly available while totally ignoring the stats that ARE available. Very poor form mate.

I'm sure you will, but if you would also read the Academic literature that backs the points I'm making you'll realise that your enjoyment isn't as satisfying as you first thought. A lot more depressing, in fact.
The problem is because you cling so desperately to giving Trump free passes, your credibility is shot to hell, like many former trump employees are finding out now. Your desperate out of context posts, demands of proof that are not available and outright bullshit have invoked the cry wolf effect. Your ill thought out posts on political ideologies and recently the american economy have found you badly wanting. So no, I will not bother reading your right wing loony fringe alternate reality tripe.

Disagreee on the first part - from 2 positions.

The first being Absolute Pedantry - but unless the Atoms that comprise the resource are destroyed (and even then Matter can be converted to Energy and hypothetically vice-versa), then in 'theory' it should be possible to recycle everything

What, now you want to look at science while completely ignoring it in your attack on mask wearing? I find your invoking or rejection of science purely depending on what point you are trying to peddle - frankly distasteful.

I know you aren't a Dem lover - you wish to nail Trump for saying he could shoot a single person dead and still be popular - I consider that Hyperbole.
Completely wrong, and deliberately misleading. I'm not looking to nail trump as he said people would still vote for him if he shot someone, he was not actually stating he would shoot someone. The point I was making as I'm sure you are well aware, the types of people he was alluding to that would still vote for him is 100% the likes of you that will defend him beyond all rationality. He is a crafty man at times and he plays to the fact that so many people such as yourself will endlessly defend him - in fact he relies on numpties doing that.

Biden butchered the Jefferson quote - which for a US President should be borderline inexcusable.
Yes, agreed - poor form. The previous president said among many other crazy shit made an awkward blunder during his Independence Day speech, praising the army, which he said “took over the airports” from the British during the revolutionary war in the late 1700s. I did not see you posting that it is borderline inexcusable to not know there were no airports in the 1700's. I would put up the many of trumps speech fuckups against bidens ones any day. Naturally it is the broken american political systems that can only offer up turd sandwich vs doochs options at election time - and old fuddy duddies at that. Anyway, it just shows how hard you lean into your TDS when you can ignore references to airports in the 1700's and make out biden is the poor performing president when it comes to speeches.

But as per President Biden - if you want to overthrow the US Government, you need F15s and Nukes, right? So whatever happened on Jan 6th cannot have been an insurrection - no F15s or Nukes were involved....
This is getting tiresome, As mentioned many, many times now, I view the jan 6th as a riot. Trump supporters are simply not smart enough to mount a credible insurrection.

Then we have to consider what his intent was - and I'm going to use your words:

"if you want to take on the government, you will need more than the weapons he is looking to get banned"

Then, there's absolutely no reason for the Government to ban them, is there? Clearly not a threat (as per Biden).
You mean bidens words right? This is about as facetious a reply as I have ever seen you make. Talk to the families of all the school mass shooting victims, tell them there is no need to ban the types of weapons that stole their children's lives and futures because they simply were not as lethal as nukes and f15's? This is truly beneath you. I know you are deeply upset that Jacinda restricted the types of bang bang's you can own, but still - it is very sad to see you stoop this low mate :no:

And it's doubly hilarious because the Democrats have long held up the argument that the AR platform is a Weapon of War and so should only be used by the Military, yet in the same breath - they are now saying it's innefective as a Weapon of War... I mean take your pick - which is it? Is it an effective tool or not?

Now the funny part is, I actually semi-agree with what Biden is saying - that if the US Government DID turn tyrannical, the level of Firepower available to it (assuming no mass desertions - which considering it would be a gross violation of the Posse Comitatus act, is unlikely) would be very one-sided - but that Threat is based on the willingness to Nuke your own citizens.
So the US army got rid of guns once they got nukes? Again, this is so desperate, it is not really funny, just sad the level you are dropping down to. Biden was in no way making a threat, he was stating fact that it would take more than a few guns to beat a government these days. I see no threat, and in fact it was barely reported on fox and there was no avalanche of comments sharing your position either. This is how far you have strayed from reality. So you see my point that you are the type of supporter trump was talking about when he made the shoot someone statement.

So I'll leave it at this - I'm happy to interpret what Biden said as clearly Hyperbole, he doesn't want to actually nuke the Citizenry of the US but in order for me to hold that interpretation you will likewise have to hold the position that Trump doesn't want to shoot anyone in 5th Avenue either.

If course, neither meant it literally and neither stated they would do either deed.
In case you still do not get it, I invoked that Trump statement because he truly was talking precisely about the likes of you.
And the posts you make above make that absolutely abundantly clear.
You do defend him beyond any sort of logical reasoning. You get points for being the largest Trump apologist still standing in this thread. But doing so has damaged your credibility pretty much beyond repair - you just don't realize it because you suffer so badly from TDS.

TheDemonLord

6th July 2021, 13:08

Are you OK? This is the most ill disciplined, poorly thought out post I have ever seen from you.

Did not even come close, as Viking pointed out.

I'm fine, thanks for asking :)

I'm still working on the rebuttal there, so I'll have to take a pause.

So, you do not want to acknowledge electoral fraud despite a head spinning amount of court cases and scrutiny due to some small obscure anomalies, but cannot see fraud when in plain sight when comparing dem refunds and the statistically MUCH higher trump campaign ones. If those numbers were reversed between the parties, I don't need to guess what you would be saying then.
what you are doing is requiring me to find evidence that is not publicly available while totally ignoring the stats that ARE available. Very poor form mate.

Well, not quite - I've been very clear that if you were to demand the level of proof from me that I am demanding of you, I cannot prove that Fraud happened.

So, in your case, you would have to concede that you cannot prove there is any Malice.

I would accept if you withdrew to that position, that you can't prove it, but your prior beliefs have shaped your judgement - that is the point I'm getting you to admit.

So no, I will not bother reading your right wing loony fringe alternate reality tripe.

Except I'm not asking you to read any such thing.

I'm asking you to read the LEFT wing Loony fringe alternate reality tripe that has permeated the Education system.

I've repeatedly said 'Don't take my word for it that it's all Marxist derived nonsense, Go read their text books, they aren't shy about it'

What, now you want to look at science while completely ignoring it in your attack on mask wearing? I find your invoking or rejection of science purely depending on what point you are trying to peddle - frankly distasteful.

My attack was that Mask Wearing became a sign of religious Piety.

Case in point - the other day I saw a Cyclist in NZ riding down a steep hill, wearing a very obvious and colourful face mask - No problem, right? Except he wasn't wearing a Helmet. This person was an embodiment of everything that I am critical of.

If he (the Cyclist) is so concerned about Safety, why are they not wearing a Helmet?
If he (the Cyclist) is so concerned about following Government Guidelines (or even Law, I think?), why are they not wearing a Helmet?

The Mask in this case is more about a public display of piety. It is a public statement of 'I am a good person because I do XYZ' - which I have little to no time for.

In addition to that, I am hold a position that the Government does not get to compel me to wear certain things, regardless of the Nobility of Intent. Especially when the wearing or not wearing of it can be used to restrict people from services that they would otherwise be able to access.

The only thing I've said about the actual Science of Mask wearing is that in the beginning it was unclear and it seems subsequently that Masks that filter out particles of a certain size, do help limit the transmission.

Completely wrong, and deliberately misleading. I'm not looking to nail trump as he said people would still vote for him if he shot someone, he was not actually stating he would shoot someone. The point I was making as I'm sure you are well aware, the types of people he was alluding to that would still vote for him is 100% the likes of you that will defend him beyond all rationality. He is a crafty man at times and he plays to the fact that so many people such as yourself will endlessly defend him - in fact he relies on numpties doing that.

Okay, if that's the position you want to argue - not on the act but on the Hyperbole that he is saying he is very popular - let's go with that.

There's the Obvious question - Why?

Perhaps if you want a flipside argument - why would people in Chicago still vote Democrat when Democrat policies of the last 6 years have resulted in a massive increase in the Murder rate?

Yes, agreed - poor form. The previous president said among many other crazy shit made an awkward blunder during his Independence Day speech, praising the army, which he said “took over the airports” from the British during the revolutionary war in the late 1700s. I did not see you posting that it is borderline inexcusable to not know there were no airports in the 1700's. I would put up the many of trumps speech fuckups against bidens ones any day. Naturally it is the broken american political systems that can only offer up turd sandwich vs doochs options at election time - and old fuddy duddies at that. Anyway, it just shows how hard you lean into your TDS when you can ignore references to airports in the 1700's and make out biden is the poor performing president when it comes to speeches.

If I was going to make a list of Biden's public speaking Faux Pas, it would be very long, but I don't. In this particular case however, I'm raising it as an example of a Man who does not respect (or understand) the foundational principles that the country he is leading was built on.

It would be as bad to me if a British Prime Minister tried to reference a Churchill speech (This was their finest hour, We shall fight them on the Beaches, Never in the field of Human history was so much owed by so many to so few etc.)

This is getting tiresome, As mentioned many, many times now, I view the jan 6th as a riot. Trump supporters are simply not smart enough to mount a credible insurrection.

Well, upon that we agree.

You mean bidens words right? This is about as facetious a reply as I have ever seen you make. Talk to the families of all the school mass shooting victims, tell them there is no need to ban the types of weapons that stole their children's lives and futures because they simply were not as lethal as nukes and f15's? This is truly beneath you. I know you are deeply upset that Jacinda restricted the types of bang bang's you can own, but still - it is very sad to see you stoop this low mate :no:

Yes, I am deeply upset when the Government makes multiple mistakes and uses it's mistakes as justification to seize my Private Property. When has that ever gone wrong in the past?

So you'll be fine with Banning Cars, Swimming Pools, Drugs and Fire then? As they kill far more children annually than Semi-Automatic centrefire Rifles do.

Or better yet - let's take a quick look at the countries that historically enacted 'strong firearm control' before ushering in a Totalitarian Government. How many children died as a result of that?

The point is that the US as an Ideal is founded explicitly on the idea that the Common Citizenry can, at any moment, overthrow the Government using Armed Force. This idea was reasoned just after they had done just that. They didn't define any restriction on Arms - specifically for that reason. Biden's comment is not only historically and factually wrong, but it shows he doesn't understand (either willfully or via Ignorance) what the fundamental structure of the US is supposed to be.

So the US army got rid of guns once they got nukes? Again, this is so desperate, it is not really funny, just sad the level you are dropping down to. Biden was in no way making a threat, he was stating fact that it would take more than a few guns to beat a government these days. I see no threat, and in fact it was barely reported on fox and there was no avalanche of comments sharing your position either. This is how far you have strayed from reality. So you see my point that you are the type of supporter trump was talking about when he made the shoot someone statement.

I'm not sure why you bring Fox up, since I don't watch it. I've seen this speech critiqued in different places - from Firearm enthusiast channels, to Libertarian channels. And not just US based channels either.

It was an implied threat, a sort of 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough'.

The main reasons it was picked up was firstly Biden was flat-out wrong in his historical statements, His butchering of a core maxim of the American Ideal and the hypocrisy of his position: If the Firearms he wants to ban aren't enough to overthrow the government, then there is no reason the common citizenry should be denied ownership of them. You cannot simultaneously make the case that something is a Weapon of War, only to be used by the Military etc. and then also make the case that it couldn't be used to fight a War.

If course, neither meant it literally and neither stated they would do either deed.
In case you still do not get it, I invoked that Trump statement because he truly was talking precisely about the likes of you.
And the posts you make above make that absolutely abundantly clear.
You do defend him beyond any sort of logical reasoning. You get points for being the largest Trump apologist still standing in this thread. But doing so has damaged your credibility pretty much beyond repair - you just don't realize it because you suffer so badly from TDS.

I asked above Why people support Trump, when even myself (according to you) is critical of many things about Trump.

The first is to ask what is the Alternative: The Democrats - which have demonstrably moved further and further to the Radical Left over time (Case in point, Trump - the 'Right Winger' was a Democrat voter in the 90s and was pictured with the likes of Bill Clinton etc. during that time frame), whereas the Republicans have moved very little (perhaps the biggest move has been away from Christian Fundamentalism)

The fact that today you have Democrat Senators like AOC proudly saying they are 'Democratic Socialists' (I'm fairly certain that Kim Jung Il considered himself a Democratic Socialist too....) should be enough of a clue as to how far left the Democrats have moved. Would you have a Democratic candidate in the 90s repeating Marxist rhetoric?

So that's the first reason - a Vote not for Trump is a vote for the Democrats who have gone off the rails. If the Party was mainly filled with Thulsi Gabbard types - then you might see a significantly different outcome.

But that is only half the question - If the Democrats are Cancer, then surely any Republican will do, right? Well, this comes back to several issues that I've hinted at earlier - there are the RINOs and the Neo-Con types and they are very well entrenched.

Then you have Trump - He hits many different notes:

Libertarian: Repeal of Bad legislation
Law and Order: Enforcement of Border Restrictions
Pro-American: America First
Anti-Woke: It has been the charge of Trump to see through the BS and call things out for what they are and now we are seeing the ripples in the US for Parents opposing Critical Race Theory.

If you contrast Trump with the UK conservatives - Trumps's Bombastic and 'Shoot-from-the-hip' style meant that he was identifying these issues long before other more 'measured' politicians were doing do. Sure - that same style has it's drawbacks and it's risks - but I happen to respect that. Same for David Seymour in NZ - he took a big risk on a certain aforementioned issue - he decided to make a princpled stand when the other two 'Conservative' parties of this country were busy forgetting what Conservative actually means.

Getting rid of Trump then is actually quite easy:

1: Clean the Democrat house of the Marxists and Socialists
2: Get a proper Libertarian conservative candidate

FJRider

6th July 2021, 17:09

I'm fine, thanks for asking :)

I'm still working on the rebuttal there, so I'll have to take a pause.

Good to hear ... but I'm still waiting on a rebuttal you told Pritch (I think)you'd do ... about a month back. I guess making all these rebuttals must be hard work. Maybe because you aren't imaginative enough to come up with any new bullshit theories ... A theory with some element of feasibility. And (dare I say) an element of (possible) truth.

Good luck with that ...

So, in your case, you would have to concede that you cannot prove there is any Malice.

ANY accusation of fraud ANYWHERE is done "With Malice" ... To effect punishment (if true) or aggravation (if untrue).

Except I'm not asking you to read any such thing.

You post it ... we read it ... and call it for what it is ... Good old fashioned TRIPE. Known locally as BULLSHIT.

I've called you out on it a few times ... and I'm still waiting for some cohesive argument.

My attack was that Mask Wearing became a sign of religious Piety.

Case in point - the other day I saw a Cyclist in NZ riding down a steep hill, wearing a very obvious and colourful face mask - No problem, right? Except he wasn't wearing a Helmet. This person was an embodiment of everything that I am critical of.

If he (the Cyclist) is so concerned about Safety, why are they not wearing a Helmet?
If he (the Cyclist) is so concerned about following Government Guidelines (or even Law, I think?), why are they not wearing a Helmet?

Are masks about health or safety. Are they the same thing .. ?? You have already admitted to lane-splitting ... and your own experiences of close calls. Enough to worry you at the time. But still claim it's perfectly safe (but still know it's not entirely legal).

In addition to that, I am hold a position that the Government does not get to compel me to wear certain things, regardless of the Nobility of Intent. Especially when the wearing or not wearing of it can be used to restrict people from services that they would otherwise be able to access.

Don't hold that position for too long ... it's bound to be painful. But if it is law ... it is required. And it is in your own best interests to do so. For the safety of your own health and that of your family. And anybody unlucky enough to be having anything to do with you ...

Okay, if that's the position you want to argue - not on the act but on the Hyperbole that he is saying he is very popular - let's go with that.

There's the Obvious question - Why?

He has money and position to get things done that people want done. Those with bugger all to lose would always support him. Regardless of how stupid and unlikely his proposals are.

Perhaps if you want a flipside argument - why would people in Chicago still vote Democrat when Democrat policies of the last 6 years have resulted in a massive increase in the Murder rate?

If it's not Democrats getting murdered ... what could possibly go wrong .. ??

If I was going to make a list of Biden's public speaking Faux Pas, it would be very long, but I don't. In this particular case however, I'm raising it as an example of a Man who does not respect (or understand) the foundational principles that the country he is leading was built on.

Make a list of Trumps speaking Faux Pas ... compare the two.

pritch

6th July 2021, 17:27

The previous president said among many other crazy shit made an awkward blunder during his Independence Day speech, praising the army, which he said “took over the airports” from the British during the revolutionary war in the late 1700s.

That was one of many. The idiot level ignorance and then the lies. All of his crank Covid cures, inject them with bleach, strong light kills it. Some redneck states buying up massive quantities of chloroquin on his say so and with which they are now stuck. Who knows but with global warming the anopheles mosquito might make itself at home there, then they'll need it.

Then there was one that many may have missed. Following his failed romance with Kim Jong Un the remains of some fallen US soldiers were returned to the US. Trump said he had received many calls from grateful parents. That's a double happy, it's a lie and it's stupid. Anybody who fought in Korea has to be in their eighties minimum. Their parents? 110 to 120 plus? Yeah right.

F5 Dave

6th July 2021, 20:40

Just to try stave off some of the Whataboutisims in perpetual circulation;

I don't think anyone here thinks Biden was a good choice.

It's just that Trump was so evil, and so stupid, that Satan or Elmer Fudd would have been a better choice.

sugilite

7th July 2021, 10:24

I'm still working on the rebuttal there, so I'll have to take a pause.
If course, it must be tough defending the indefensible 100% of the time :bleh:

Well, not quite - I've been very clear that if you were to demand the level of proof from me that I am demanding of you, I cannot prove that Fraud happened.

The thousands upon thousands of fraud complaints by his supporters along with the mega percentage more refunds than the dems is 100% proof. How do you breathe with your head stuck in the sand?

My attack was that Mask Wearing became a sign of religious Piety.

Case in point - the other day I saw a Cyclist in NZ riding down a steep hill, wearing a very obvious and colourful face mask - No problem, right? Except he wasn't wearing a Helmet. This person was an embodiment of everything that I am critical of.

If he (the Cyclist) is so concerned about Safety, why are they not wearing a Helmet?
If he (the Cyclist) is so concerned about following Government Guidelines (or even Law, I think?), why are they not wearing a Helmet?

The Mask in this case is more about a public display of piety. It is a public statement of 'I am a good person because I do XYZ' - which I have little to no time for.

Wow, just wow - you can not possibly know this cyclists life story - despite making out you do. The simple FACT is you do not know shit about him. Maybe he just wanted to keep his face warm, maybe he had just robbed a bank and was executing a stealthy getaway, maybe he lost his helmet. I repeat - you don't know shit about him.

Okay, if that's the position you want to argue - not on the act but on the Hyperbole that he is saying he is very popular - let's go with that.

There's the Obvious question - Why?
Because he has a gift for attracting gullible idiots that love nothing better to dine on his hyperbole. These gullible idiots don't seem to realize that because 95+% of what falls out his mouth is hyperbole, subsequently nothing he says can be taken seriously :lol:

If I was going to make a list of Biden's public speaking Faux Pas, it would be very long, but I don't. In this particular case however, I'm raising it as an example of a Man who does not respect (or understand) the foundational principles that the country he is leading was built on.

It would be as bad to me if a British Prime Minister tried to reference a Churchill speech (This was their finest hour, We shall fight them on the Beaches, Never in the field of Human history was so much owed by so many to so few etc.)
I could make a much longer list of Trumps and you know it lol. I see you are avoiding wanting to discuss trumps airport clanger, just want to focus on twisting Bidens words to make it sound like something he clearly did not intend - fancy that! :lol:

Yes, I am deeply upset when the Government makes multiple mistakes and uses it's mistakes as justification to seize my Private Property. When has that ever gone wrong in the past?
I'm very comfortable with what weapons have been controlled in this instance. You can still go hunting and kill things - chin up chap.

So you'll be fine with Banning Cars, Swimming Pools, Drugs and Fire then? As they kill far more children annually than Semi-Automatic centrefire Rifles do.
Yes, doing nothing is really working out well for the states on gun violence huh :rolleyes:

The point is that the US as an Ideal is founded explicitly on the idea that the Common Citizenry can, at any moment, overthrow the Government using Armed Force. This idea was reasoned just after they had done just that. They didn't define any restriction on Arms - specifically for that reason. Biden's comment is not only historically and factually wrong, but it shows he doesn't understand (either willfully or via Ignorance) what the fundamental structure of the US is supposed to be.
Time change old chap. Some things just fade away - like nearly every single ideal the founding fathers set up. But just keep that laser scope on the 2nd amendment :laugh:

I'm not sure why you bring Fox up, since I don't watch it. I've seen this speech critiqued in different places - from Firearm enthusiast channels, to Libertarian channels. And not just US based channels either.
Correct, no major news agencies jumped on it, it was just blown up by the loony fringe out of touch with reality mob. Loonies you seem well acquainted with :innocent:

It was an implied threat, a sort of 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough'.
You are embarrassing yourself, "implied threat" :laugh: Only stupid trumpifiles could extract that from his statement.

The main reasons it was picked up was firstly Biden was flat-out wrong in his historical statements, His butchering of a core maxim of the American Ideal and the hypocrisy of his position: If the Firearms he wants to ban aren't enough to overthrow the government, then there is no reason the common citizenry should be denied ownership of them. You cannot simultaneously make the case that something is a Weapon of War, only to be used by the Military etc. and then also make the case that it couldn't be used to fight a War.
Control your hyperbole eh. The hypocrisy is yours for ignoring the many, many more times Trump butchered American history. ahem, airports in the 1700's :rolleyes:

I asked above Why people support Trump, when even myself (according to you) is critical of many things about Trump.
You have to be joking, you critical of Trump? :weird:

The fact that today you have Democrat Senators like AOC proudly saying they are 'Democratic Socialists' (I'm fairly certain that Kim Jung Il considered himself a Democratic Socialist too....) should be enough of a clue as to how far left the Democrats have moved. Would you have a Democratic candidate in the 90s repeating Marxist rhetoric?
Would the republican party of the 90's let a cretin like Trump lead the party? I see your AOC and raise you a tayler-green :lol:

Then you have Trump - He hits many different notes:
Bum notes that saw him lose the house, lose the senate and lose the presidency :lol:

Getting rid of Trump then is actually quite easy:

News flash - He already has been got rid off - all it took was a free and fair election and woosh, down the dunny he went :grin:
Sure he can run in 24 (and I hope he does, never get sick of seeing him lose), but then he has lost a lot of votes already by defrauding thousands upon thousands of his donors. Build something, then burn it down with incompetency - the trump way :lol:

Looks like the New York DA lot have opted for a slow painful death by 1000 cuts - I approve, and look forward to Trump receiving many turds in his morning cornflakes in the coming months and years. :devil2:

sugilite

7th July 2021, 11:04

That was one of many. The idiot level ignorance and then the lies. All of his crank Covid cures, inject them with bleach, strong light kills it. Some redneck states buying up massive quantities of chloroquin on his say so and with which they are now stuck. Who knows but with global warming the anopheles mosquito might make itself at home there, then they'll need it.

Then there was one that many may have missed. Following his failed romance with Kim Jong Un the remains of some fallen US soldiers were returned to the US. Trump said he had received many calls from grateful parents. That's a double happy, it's a lie and it's stupid. Anybody who fought in Korea has to be in their eighties minimum. Their parents? 110 to 120 plus? Yeah right.

Yeah, TDS, opps I mean TDL seems oblivious to how much more material there is out there on trumps gaffes than even the gaffe prone biden.

TheDemonLord

8th July 2021, 10:13

Good to hear ... but I'm still waiting on a rebuttal you told Pritch (I think)you'd do ... about a month back. I guess making all these rebuttals must be hard work. Maybe because you aren't imaginative enough to come up with any new bullshit theories ... A theory with some element of feasibility. And (dare I say) an element of (possible) truth.

Good luck with that ...

More like Time, We finished a massive work project on the 30th of June - so busy playing catch up.

You post it ... we read it ... and call it for what it is ... Good old fashioned TRIPE. Known locally as BULLSHIT.

I've called you out on it a few times ... and I'm still waiting for some cohesive argument.

You can call what I write Tripe/Bullshit/Nonsense till the cows come home, you may have 'called me out on it' - but I don't mind, you are entitled to have you opinion of me, as you say - I post, you read it - what you choose to do with it is up to you.

However in this specific instance - I'm not asking anyone to read what I am saying, I'm suggesting they read what the Authors and Philosophers of that idea are saying.

Noel Ignatiev:

The goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists.

Kalwant Bhopal:

CRT scholarship promulgates that all white people are, by default, implicated in preserving white supremacy

Sumi Cho:

assessing both achievements and failings of parallel efforts to raise race consciousness through student-led diversity struggle and CRT's scholarly interventions on race discourse. By linking histories of communal struggle with the individual agency of the initial critical race proponents, we demonstrate how antiracist practices and antiracist theorizing are metabolically intertwined.

Robin Diangelo

I was invited to the retirement party of a white friend. The party was a pot-luck picnic held in a public park. As I walked down the slope toward the picnic shelters, I noticed two parties going on side by side. One gathering was primarily composed of white people, and the other appeared to be all black people. I experienced a sense of disequilibrium as I approached and had to choose which party was my friend’s. I felt a mild sense of anxiety as I considered that I might have to enter the all-black group, then mild relief as I realized that my friend was in the other group. This relief was amplified as I thought that I might have mistakenly walked over to the black party!

I mean, I could go on - but in those 4 we have:

1: An explicit call for Genocide (the full quote involves some verbal backflips to try and weasel out of the accusation, comparing themselves to Anti-Monarchists - but my Skin Colour is not an institution)
2: Original Sin (Remember when I said Social Justice had all the hallmarks of a new religion) - All *white* people are born with Original Sin and therefore must repent!
3: They want to Raise Race Consciousness. They want me to see them as a "Black" Man instead of a Man. In total opposition to Martin Luther King's Dream. Funnily enough the NeoNazis and the KKK agree whole heartedly on this point.
4: Communal Struggles - Can we name an Ideology based around Commun... ideals?
5: You ever walked to a Park where you knew some friends were having a party and seen a group of mostly white people and a group of mostly Maori people and said to yourself 'I hope it's not the one with all the Maoris'? (or Asians or Indians or *insert demographic different to your own here*)

That's the actions of a Racist. I, on the other hand, don't and more importantly would never feel that way - I'm pretty sure most of the posters here also wouldn't be worried about joining a group where they were the minority race.

So I say again, you want to dismiss what I say as Bullshit - Be my Guest, but don't dismiss what the academics are saying, it might shock you.

Are masks about health or safety. Are they the same thing .. ?? You have already admitted to lane-splitting ... and your own experiences of close calls. Enough to worry you at the time. But still claim it's perfectly safe (but still know it's not entirely legal).

If you take the proponents of Mask wearing at their word, they are about Health and Safety. My position is that what they have become to certain people is a symbol of piety. Which is why it's perfectly logical to wear a Mask riding a bike without a helmet. It's not about Health or about Safety, it's about showing allegiance to certain tribe.

Don't hold that position for too long ... it's bound to be painful. But if it is law ... it is required. And it is in your own best interests to do so. For the safety of your own health and that of your family. And anybody unlucky enough to be having anything to do with you ...

Is it? I can think of many laws throughout history where time has show that non-compliance was absolutely the right thing to do.

He has money and position to get things done that people want done. Those with bugger all to lose would always support him. Regardless of how stupid and unlikely his proposals are.

Sure, he has Money and a Position - why are people not following the likes of Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos in the same manner then? It has nothing to do with Money or Power and everything to do with the ideals that his is putting forth.

If it's not Democrats getting murdered ... what could possibly go wrong .. ??

No one should be getting Murdered, that's kinda the point, when Policies that were implemented to appeal to an ideological viewpoint have results in a sharp increase in the number of Deaths (and ironically amongst the population the Policy was designed to 'protect'), then that says quite a bit.

Make a list of Trumps speaking Faux Pas ... compare the two.

Trump's would likely be longer, Biden's would likely be more serious.

TheDemonLord

8th July 2021, 10:37

The thousands upon thousands of fraud complaints by his supporters along with the mega percentage more refunds than the dems is 100% proof. How do you breathe with your head stuck in the sand?

So no Memos then.

No confirmed intent? I'm glad you concede the point.

Wow, just wow - you can not possibly know this cyclists life story - despite making out you do. The simple FACT is you do not know shit about him. Maybe he just wanted to keep his face warm, maybe he had just robbed a bank and was executing a stealthy getaway, maybe he lost his helmet. I repeat - you don't know shit about him.

If only his backpack was emblazoned with Emblems that clearly denoted his political viewpoints... If only....

I appreciate that I may not have stopped him and grilled him on the minutiae of his every political and social belief - but I can assure you, the Mask he was wearing was not of the 'I want to keep my face warm' type, nor was he coming from any Bank.

Why are you so averse to the clear point that Mask wearing has been adopted as a Virtuous Act by one side and an Act of Rebellion by the other?

Because he has a gift for attracting gullible idiots that love nothing better to dine on his hyperbole. These gullible idiots don't seem to realize that because 95+% of what falls out his mouth is hyperbole, subsequently nothing he says can be taken seriously :lol:

Sure - which is why I ignore 95% of what Trump says, it's the 5% that isn't hyperbole that interests me.

I could make a much longer list of Trumps and you know it lol. I see you are avoiding wanting to discuss trumps airport clanger, just want to focus on twisting Bidens words to make it sound like something he clearly did not intend - fancy that! :lol:

I said you could make a longer list (if you include every bit of Hyperbole) - but I also said Biden's was much more damning.

In terms of the Clanger - if my history serves me, weren't the American army defending a Port in that battle? In which case it's a fairly inconsequential slip of the tongue to say Airport instead of port (or harbour)

I'm very comfortable with what weapons have been controlled in this instance. You can still go hunting and kill things - chin up chap.

And if I was so inclined I could go to Hirepool, then RD1 then a Shell Garage and have access to all the things one would need to commit an act of Terror.

Also, it's very easy to be comfortable when you've got no skin in the game. But then - less than 30% handed in, so have they really been controlled?

Yes, doing nothing is really working out well for the states on gun violence huh :rolleyes:

Depends - in the Republican states with Liberal Open Carry or CCP laws, things seem to be going pretty well. In California and New York (Both Democrat strongholds with very strict Firearm Laws) - not so much.

Time change old chap. Some things just fade away - like nearly every single ideal the founding fathers set up. But just keep that laser scope on the 2nd amendment :laugh:

I completely agree that the departure from the Founding Principles, not just the 2A, has been to the detriment of the US.

But in this instance, no - I don't think times change. Just like on the 1st Amendment - Hate Speech laws be damned - There's an absolute Natural/God Given right and I do not think it should ever be moderated.

Correct, no major news agencies jumped on it, it was just blown up by the loony fringe out of touch with reality mob. Loonies you seem well acquainted with :innocent:

Ah yes, why would Corporate, left-leaning America not seek to discredit the Left-Wing president....

The Loony Fringe that you refer to BTW - has higher Viewership figures than the likes of CNN, MSNBC Combined - so which is which?

You are embarrassing yourself, "implied threat" :laugh: Only stupid trumpifiles could extract that from his statement.

It's quite clearly saying 'We've got bigger weapons than you and so if you want to overthrow us, we'll crush you'

Control your hyperbole eh. The hypocrisy is yours for ignoring the many, many more times Trump butchered American history. ahem, airports in the 1700's :rolleyes:

There is no Hyperbole on my part - Biden was explicitly wrong on his Historical statements. Categorically. The rest is more amusement at the absurdity of his rational for trying to Ban weapons that he refers to as 'Weapons of War' and then moments later says that they would be ineffective in fighting a War.

You have to be joking, you critical of Trump? :weird:

I've stated many times I don't like his manner of Speech, there's other things I've been critical of him over (I acknowledged I'd have liked to have seen a stronger Federal Covid response) - and I've agreed that if the left actually critiqued Trump fairly, it would be far more effective

Would the republican party of the 90's let a cretin like Trump lead the party? I see your AOC and raise you a tayler-green :lol:

No, he was tied to the Democrats back then (which should tell you a few interesting things...)

MTG - Okay, some of the things she says are quite spicy, verging into Alex Jones' territory, definitely unpleasant. Calling School Shootings as 'Fake' is very high up there in my list of reprehensible actions.

But there's one key difference. For all the mean and nasty things MTG says, she doesn't want to destroy the US and replace it with a Communist 'Utopia' (AKA Hell-Hole).

If you are a Politician in this day and age and you can promote Socialism or any other theory that has it's roots in Marxism - you are either Historically ignorant to the point that you should be disallowed from running for Office on principle or you are Malevolent.

Bum notes that saw him lose the house, lose the senate and lose the presidency :lol:

News flash - He already has been got rid off - all it took was a free and fair election and woosh, down the dunny he went :grin:
Sure he can run in 24 (and I hope he does, never get sick of seeing him lose), but then he has lost a lot of votes already by defrauding thousands upon thousands of his donors. Build something, then burn it down with incompetency - the trump way :lol:

And yet we are still talking about him, he is still holding Political events - which people are still attending. So I'm not sure you can say he's gotten Rid of.

Looks like the New York DA lot have opted for a slow painful death by 1000 cuts - I approve, and look forward to Trump receiving many turds in his morning cornflakes in the coming months and years. :devil2:

I cannot approve blatant abuse of the Justice System to serve a political goal.

Again, nothing says 'Free and Fair' like Censuring your opponent and colluding with the Justice System to vindictively investigate someone.

TheDemonLord

8th July 2021, 10:46

All of his crank Covid cures, inject them with bleach, strong light kills it. Some redneck states buying up massive quantities of chloroquin on his say so and with which they are now stuck. Who knows but with global warming the anopheles mosquito might make itself at home there, then they'll need it

We've covered the Bleach comment - which was a spitball idea, very clear when you read the full quote.

UV Light: Ultraviolet germicidal irradiation - it's a thing, so it's not crazy to say 'hey this works on some instances, maybe it will work with Covid'

Chloroquin: Doesn't appear to have any significant side effects, so why not try it? If it works (even if only a Placebo) what's the harm?

sugilite

8th July 2021, 11:02

If you take the proponents of Mask wearing at their word, they are about Health and Safety. My position is that what they have become to certain people is a symbol of piety. Which is why it's perfectly logical to wear a Mask riding a bike without a helmet. It's not about Health or about Safety, it's about showing allegiance to certain tribe.
They have become that way due to a certain irresponsible thank god ex president saying things like, the CDC are recommending masks, but I don't think I'll be wearing one. Queue easily manipulated trumpbots to start another front on the we hate dems war. Your guy is the one that is a very large part of starting that bullshit so he could sow some more division. Only the dumb fell for it - your continued posts down this line are duly noted :facepalm: And as for the cyclist, you do not know hios name, occupation or the slightest thing about him other than he wore a mask on a bicycle. All you are doing is projecting your frailties and fringe right wing insecurities onto the poor guy.

Sure, he has Money and a Position - why are people not following the likes of Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos in the same manner then? It has nothing to do with Money or Power and everything to do with the ideals that his is putting forth.
You mean the ideals of fleecing ones own supporters. See he has started a never going to win class action against social media (guess it is easier than building his own as he has found out) and boom his first action is to call out to his supporters for donations to put in to his latest scam. Dumbarses will fall for it and say how it is his right to bring such an action. I know you will defend him on it, as is your way. nothing odd about a claimed billionaire begging and stealing peoples money, according to you, it's all good.

Trump's would likely be longer, Biden's would likely be more serious.
I've watched gaffes videos of both Biden and Trump. You may want to do the same before posting much more on this, since there is clear indisputable evidence in this instance, not bull shitty show me the emails dribble you can hide behind.

We've covered the Bleach comment - which was a spitball idea, very clear when you read the full quote.
Apart from the whincing cringing doctor behind him. Drinking bleach is hardly something someone yet alone a president should be spitballing

Chloroquin: Doesn't appear to have any significant side effects, so why not try it? If it works (even if only a Placebo) what's the harm?
Yes, based on your words, we can expect to see medical warning stickers say something like "Does not seem to have side effects, may work like a placebo - not designed for your intended use, but hey just give it a go". :facepalm:
Can you not see how absurd your boundless defense of Trump is making you look?

pritch

8th July 2021, 11:51

More probems for Rudy Giuliani. An appeals court in Washington DC has temporarliy suspended his licence to practice law in DC. This follows a similar decision in New York.

pritch

8th July 2021, 16:18

husaberg

8th July 2021, 18:03

Donald Trump has announced that he is talking a class action against Twitter, Facebook and Google (who own Youtube) under the First Amendment to the US Constitution for "censoring him". Interesting because it's not a class action, and the !st Amendment has no relevance to companies. The 1st Amendment applies to the government.

This "legal action" has been described by lawyers as idiotic. Probably more serious is the fund raising to finance this fools errand.
With Trump there's always a grift, always a con, but fools will fall over each other to be parted from their money.

Especially given as they have private ownership they are entitled to uphold their own rules.......
not to mention Facebook's independent oversight board ruling they were within their rights
That independent board is made up mostly of professors lawyers and free speach advocates from around the world.

The First Amendment only protects your speech from government censorship. It applies to federal, state, and local government actors. This is a broad category that includes not only lawmakers and elected officials, but also public schools and universities, courts, and police officers. It does not include private citizens, businesses, and organizations. This means that:

A private school can suspend students for criticizing a school policy;
A private business can fire an employee for expressing political views on the job; and
A private media company can refuse to publish or broadcast opinions it disagrees with.

Free Speech and the Regulation of
Social Media Content
As the Supreme Court has recognized, social media sites like Facebook and Twitter have become important venues for users to exercise free speech rights protected under the First Amendment.
Commentators and legislators, however, have questioned whether these social media platforms are living up to their reputation as digital public forums. Some have expressed concern that these
sites are not doing enough to counter violent or false speech. At the same time, many argue that the platforms are unfairly banning and restricting access to potentially valuable speech.
Currently, federal law does not offer much recourse for social media users who seek to challenge a social media provider’s decision about whether and how to present a user’s content. Lawsuits predicated on these sites’ decisions to host or remove content have been largely unsuccessful, facing at least two significant barriers under existing federal law. First, while
individuals have sometimes alleged that these companies violated their free speech rights by discriminating against users’ content, courts have held that the First Amendment, which provides protection against state action, is not implicated by the actions of these private companies. Second, courts have concluded that many non-constitutional claims are barred by Section
230 of the Communications Decency Act, 47 U.S.C. § 230, which provides immunity to providers of interactive computer services, including social media providers, both for certain decisions to host content created by others and for actions taken “voluntarily” and “in good faith” to restrict access to “objectionable” material.

Funny enough trump tried to censor the media as they wrote mean things about him.

Donald Trump has threatened to “strongly regulate” or close down social media platforms that do not meet his standards for ideological balance, a day after Twitter, for the first time, slapped a warning label on a pair of Trump tweets spreading lies about mail-in voting.

Trump in the past has made threats about media censorship that he did not then act on, and any attempt by the White House to shutter a media organization would encounter first amendment challenges in the courts. In 2018 a federal judge ruled the president could not block people on Twitter, because it violates their first amendment rights to participate in a “public forum”.

Laava

8th July 2021, 18:32

Yes, based on your words, we can expect to see medical warning stickers say something like "Does not seem to have side effects, may work like a placebo - not designed for your intended use, but hey just give it a go". :facepalm:
Can you not see how absurd your boundless defense of Trump is making you look?

Can you please stop quoting him, a lot of people have him on ignore for a very good reason!😀😀😀

sugilite

8th July 2021, 20:06

Can you please stop quoting him, a lot of people have him on ignore for a very good reason!😀😀😀
Ok. fair enough - I just deleted the start of my reply to him :lol: I guess it is a waste of time sparring with someone that can back flip the exact same scenario multiple times in order to suit which point he happens to be peddling at that minute :facepalm:

F5 Dave

8th July 2021, 21:19

Yeah it gets tedious. He probably tells his mates hes baiting internet dudes by saying dumb shit, and I don't believe he can be that dumb. Hes making it up.

pritch

8th July 2021, 21:19

Especially given as they have private ownership they are entitled to uphold their own rules.......

Not to mention that he is taking his farce to a court in southern Florida. The varous firms he's sueing have legal arrangements tieing them to courts in different jurisdictions. This will all be grist to the mill for the lawyers. As long as Trump's lawyers understand they are working pro bono, but he won't have told them that. Yet.

FJRider

8th July 2021, 21:38

More like Time, We finished a massive work project on the 30th of June - so busy playing catch up.

Me ... I'm taking a week off work. I work every second week and get paid for BOTH weeks. I was told you were a fat useless cunt ... :shifty:

But obviously ... by your own words ... not lazy ... :shifty:

You can call what I write Tripe/Bullshit/Nonsense till the cows come home, you may have 'called me out on it' - but I don't mind, you are entitled to have you opinion of me, as you say - I post, you read it - what you choose to do with it is up to you.

What you read in my posts is entirely my opinion. As is my right to post. I just like to argue your opinions ... :shifty:

However in this specific instance - I'm not asking anyone to read what I am saying, I'm suggesting they read what the Authors and Philosophers of that idea are saying.

Perhaps you should consider ... that the majority of those in the coloured races that are speaking out ... have a large portion of White DNA in their heritage. I personally know a few claiming Maori heritage ... with the only thing that would suggest that was true ... was because their surname was Brown ... :shifty:

I mean, I could go on - but in those 4 we have:

You do go on ... and on ... and on ... and on ... :shifty:

1: ...

2: ...

3: ...

4: ...

5: ...

I rest my case ...

That's the actions of a Racist ...

The action (singular) of a racist is to see colour ... not a person. As is the action of mentioning a Race ... not as a country.

So I say again, you want to dismiss what I say as Bullshit - Be my Guest, but don't dismiss what the academics are saying, it might shock you.

And I say again ... BULLSHIT .. !!! ... :shifty:

My position is that what they have become to certain people is a symbol of piety.

Somehow ... you have gone from ...

My attack was that Mask Wearing became a sign of religious Piety.

to ...

they have become to certain people ... etc

It's good to see you are steadfast in your beliefs (and statements) ... :shifty:

Is it? I can think of many laws throughout history where time has show that non-compliance was absolutely the right thing to do.

So can I ... wars were started over less. But in the current situation ... is it ... "the right or wrong thing to do" ... :shifty:

Sure, he has Money and a Position - why are people not following the likes of Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos in the same manner then? It has nothing to do with Money or Power and everything to do with the ideals that his is putting forth.

You might not recall Bill Gates inciting the rabble to riot ... probably because ... he never did ... :shifty:

No one should be getting Murdered, that's kinda the point, when Policies that were implemented to appeal to an ideological viewpoint have results in a sharp increase in the number of Deaths (and ironically amongst the population the Policy was designed to 'protect'), then that says quite a bit.

In case you haven't noticed ... it's not a perfect world. The old ... "If it doesn't affect me or my family ... I'm not worried about it" ... :shifty:

Trump's would likely be longer, Biden's would likely be more serious.

Trump telling people that injecting bleach would be a way of fighting the virus ... and that (by your quote) Biden's gaff's are "Likely" more serious ... ??? :shifty:

Go figure ... :shifty:

husaberg

8th July 2021, 21:43

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6e5f75df5aae6eefde5017db94efb47f

349340349341

TheDemonLord

9th July 2021, 10:02

They have become that way due to a certain irresponsible thank god ex president saying things like, the CDC are recommending masks, but I don't think I'll be wearing one. Queue easily manipulated trumpbots to start another front on the we hate dems war. Your guy is the one that is a very large part of starting that bullshit so he could sow some more division. Only the dumb fell for it - your continued posts down this line are duly noted :facepalm: And as for the cyclist, you do not know hios name, occupation or the slightest thing about him other than he wore a mask on a bicycle. All you are doing is projecting your frailties and fringe right wing insecurities onto the poor guy.

What started it was the 'Don't wear a mask' then 'Wear a mask' then 'We compel you wear a mask' - It's the Compulsion that spurred the resistance. And when the opposition doubled down on Mask wearing, it became a clear sign of Piety.

In regards to the Cyclist - You're attempts to whataboutism fall flat - for two reasons:

1: He had enough Emblems on his bag for us to know his various political positions
2: I can point to other clearly absurd instances of Mask Wearing:

https://alphanewsmn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Annotation-2020-09-01-191248.png

Clearly, because of how a Woodwind instrument works and the fact that the Mask has a hole in it - it's not performing the function, so why the Mask? I could accept wearing a mask to the performance, taking it off during, then putting it back on - but instead we have a mask with a Zip.

The wearing of the Mask in this case is not of any practical use, but instead symbolic of ones virtue 'See, I'm still wearing my Mask, what a good person I am'

You mean the ideals of fleecing ones own supporters. See he has started a never going to win class action against social media (guess it is easier than building his own as he has found out) and boom his first action is to call out to his supporters for donations to put in to his latest scam. Dumbarses will fall for it and say how it is his right to bring such an action. I know you will defend him on it, as is your way. nothing odd about a claimed billionaire begging and stealing peoples money, according to you, it's all good.

Fleecing Supporters? Should I bring up the BLM founders who left the movement after they bought multiple, Million Dollar properties in White, Gated communities? At least the Money that Trump is collecting is going towards what he says it is, doomed to fail (in your opinion) or otherwise.

In terms of the Class action, I don't think he will win, but I think it will be a very interesting case to watch.

I've watched gaffes videos of both Biden and Trump. You may want to do the same before posting much more on this, since there is clear indisputable evidence in this instance, not bull shitty show me the emails dribble you can hide behind.

Oh really? See, if I was to treat all of Biden's Gaffes, the same way that the Media treats 'Trump Gaffes': That is removing what was said from all forms of Context and taking the exact words literally, without any consideration of what the actual message is - Like mocking him for saying Airport instead of Port....

All I would have to do is post this Biden quote:

We have put together I think the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of American politics.

Job done, case proven (by the standards that you hold Trump to) etc. etc.

But I don't. Because I, as a native English speaker, am happy to accept that Biden (given the context of the Speech) meant to say 'Anti-Fraud' or similar in the speech. And there are a lot more of Biden's 'Gaffes' that I don't bring up because they are clearly slips of the Tongue or off-hand comments. The same way that almost all of the Trump 'Gaffes' you would raise are. Yet when I do it for Trump (take the words in their context, with the intended meaning), All I get is 'Free Pass for Trump'. So, if you want me to hold Trump to the standard that you and the media do - fine, but I'll be holding Biden to that same standard and as above - He's just admitted Voter fraud (if you don't give 'A Free pass for Biden') - I'll let you decide on which standard you want to adhere to.

Getting back to the quote that sparked this however - Butchering one of the Maxims upon which your country is built on, I can't excuse as a mere slip of the Tongue. Not knowing the historical context of one of the foundational tenants of the Bill of Rights, I can't excuse that.

Apart from the whincing cringing doctor behind him. Drinking bleach is hardly something someone yet alone a president should be spitballing

I've said it was bad, but the comment of 'Could we use Bleach to kill it'? became 'TRUMP WANTS YOU TO INJECT BLEACH!' - 2 wildly different realities. I've said it was a dumb comment before, but I also said that in the context of the conversation it was neither a directive nor a serious policy suggestion.

Yes, based on your words, we can expect to see medical warning stickers say something like "Does not seem to have side effects, may work like a placebo - not designed for your intended use, but hey just give it a go". :facepalm:
Can you not see how absurd your boundless defense of Trump is making you look?

You should read a little of the History of Medicines.

'Does not seem to have any bad Side Effects, May work as a Placebo, Not designed for your intended use, but hey give it a go' has been the genesis of many Prescription and other Medicines.

Viagra as one particular instance - was intended originally to be used for Chest pain.

The clinical trails however showed "Does not seem to have any bad Side Effects, May work as a Placebo, Not designed for your intended use, but hey give it a go" - And Millions since have indeed been 'giving it a go'.

Or if you prefer, you can look at the history of HIV/AIDS treatments in the late 80s/early 90s - where eventually the FDA allowed people to take drugs that they hadn't approved on the basis of
'Does not seem to have any bad Side Effects, May work as a Placebo, Not designed for your intended use, but hey give it a go'

TheDemonLord

9th July 2021, 10:08

Especially given as they have private ownership they are entitled to uphold their own rules.......
not to mention Facebook's independent oversight board ruling they were within their rights
That independent board is made up mostly of professors lawyers and free speach advocates from around the world.

Funny enough trump tried to censor the media as they wrote mean things about him.

Yeah... Hold up a sec there bud:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-1/quasi-public-places

But it may be that in some instances private property is so functionally akin to public property that private owners may not forbid expression upon it.

This is the argument that Trump will be making, that Twitter, YouTube and Facebook, although private are functionally akin to Public property (and the fact you can see a Facebook, YouTube or Twitter page without an account is going to go a long way towards that argument) and therefore in accordance with Marsh V Alabama fall under the protection of the First Amendment.

TheDemonLord

9th July 2021, 10:22

Me ... I'm taking a week off work. I work every second week and get paid for BOTH weeks. I was told you were a fat useless cunt ... :shifty:

But obviously ... by your own words ... not lazy ... :shifty:

Well, you keep replying, so obviously I am of some use...

What you read in my posts is entirely my opinion. As is my right to post. I just like to argue your opinions ... :shifty:

Of course, and I welcome that you express your opinion, my track record on always being on the side of free speech on this forum is well documented.

Perhaps you should consider ... that the majority of those in the coloured races that are speaking out ... have a large portion of White DNA in their heritage. I personally know a few claiming Maori heritage ... with the only thing that would suggest that was true ... was because their surname was Brown ... :shifty:

You do go on ... and on ... and on ... and on ... :shifty:

I rest my case ...

The action (singular) of a racist is to see colour ... not a person. As is the action of mentioning a Race ... not as a country.

And I say again ... BULLSHIT .. !!! ... :shifty:

I'm going to ask you a series of questions in this regard:

1: Do you accept that what I posted was from the Academic Sources of this Movement and not some 'Right Wing conspiracy' as you put it?
2: Do you find those Quotes to be inherently racist?
3: Regardless of what my opinion is or whether you believe my interpretation - if you agree with questions 1 and 2 - are you prepared to accept that there is something very rotten with this theory?

Somehow ... you have gone from ...

to ...

It's good to see you are steadfast in your beliefs (and statements) ... :shifty:

Those are one and the same thing. A Certain group decided that wearing a Mask was a virtuous act and so the wearing of it became a pious act of Virtue. The criticism of public displays of 'Virtue' go all the way back to the Bible:

Be careful not to do your `acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men.

So can I ... wars were started over less. But in the current situation ... is it ... "the right or wrong thing to do" ... :shifty:

If you accept the British Liberal framework that underpins our Society - then the answer is obvious.

The sad part is people like to choose the bits of that Framework that are convenient and ignore the bits they don't like, without appreciating that all of them need to work in unison.

You might not recall Bill Gates inciting the rabble to riot ... probably because ... he never did ... :shifty:

There are certainly other Billionaires who have been funding groups that have done quite a lot or Rioting in recent times - with a much higher Body Count....

In case you haven't noticed ... it's not a perfect world. The old ... "If it doesn't affect me or my family ... I'm not worried about it" ... :shifty:

"When they came for the Communists, I did not speak out because I was not a Communist
When they came for the Gypsies, I did not speak out because I was not a Gypsy
When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out because I was not a Jew
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out"

Edit:

Also - if you think it won't be affecting your Family - the only reason you know about this is because parents noticed the consequences of this were being taught to their Children.

Trump telling people that injecting bleach would be a way of fighting the virus ... and that (by your quote) Biden's gaff's are "Likely" more serious ... ??? :shifty:

Go figure ... :shifty:

As above - if you want me to apply the standard of interpretation you are applying to Trump, then I get to point to the Biden quote and say he admitted Voter Fraud.

Pick the standard....

pritch

9th July 2021, 12:39

What started it was the 'Don't wear a mask' then 'Wear a mask' then 'We compel you wear a mask' - It's the Compulsion that spurred the resistance. And when the opposition doubled down on Mask wearing, it became a clear sign of Piety.

My mistake, I thought I'd see if TDL has improved. The first sentence is completely absurd so I didn't need to read anymore.

It will be a waste of time to explain, but I'll try.

Initially there were not even enough masks for hospital staff, so the recommendation to the public was no masks.

When sufficient masks became available the public was told to wear masks.

The politicisation of Covid and masks was 100% Trump. He had a little help from Jared, his son in law, who advised him that since the dsease appeared first in cities it was a Democrat problem, therefore not a worry for the government. If Trump acted on that though, he is responsible. Nobody else.

The compulsion didn't do anything. The MAGATs were following their leader regardless. That left wingers may be seen wearing masks and right wingers not, might well be a sign of the relative sanity of the two groups rather than piety.

F5 Dave

9th July 2021, 13:11

You only had to see the rush on toilet paper to understand the mask supply issues.

But don't worry. Covid is just going to go away said the Don.

TheDemonLord

9th July 2021, 14:30

My mistake, I thought I'd see if TDL has improved. The first sentence is completely absurd so I didn't need to read anymore.

It will be a waste of time to explain, but I'll try.

Initially there were not even enough masks for hospital staff, so the recommendation to the public was no masks.

"Don't do this"

then moments later "You absolutely Must do this" - and you wonder why some people may not trust the advice? Regardless of the Justification.

The politicisation of Covid and masks was 100% Trump. He had a little help from Jared, his son in law, who advised him that since the dsease appeared first in cities it was a Democrat problem, therefore not a worry for the government. If Trump acted on that though, he is responsible. Nobody else.

Then how do you explain the opposition to Lockdowns, Mask orders, Gathering limitations outside of America if it's 100% Trump?

The answer is that there is a Libertarian opposition to arbitrary rules That in several cases did not have the backing of Legislation.

That left wingers may be seen wearing masks and right wingers not, might well be a sign of the relative sanity of the two groups rather than piety.

So, how do you explain the Left-Wing narrative that the Wuhan Virus Lab was a 'Right Wing conspiracy'? Remember, it got you banned from Social Media for spreading 'False information'?

If the supposedly 'sane' group dismisses something to the point of censuring it, which later comes out that it is very plausible, what does that say about their perception of Reality?

pritch

9th July 2021, 17:00

"Don't do this" then moments later "You absolutely Must do this" - and you wonder why some people may not trust the advice? Regardless of the Justification.

Moments later? It was more like months. Anybody with an IQ over room temperature should have been able to follow what was happening.

Then how do you explain the opposition to Lockdowns, Mask orders, Gathering limitations outside of America if it's 100% Trump?

Monkey see monkey do.

Take for example Billy Te Kahika who gathered together every halfwit conspiracy theory he could find and made them "policy" for the last election. He didn't get much of his nonsense from this country.

So, how do you explain the Left-Wing narrative that the Wuhan Virus Lab was a 'Right Wing conspiracy'? Remember, it got you banned from Social Media for spreading 'False information'

Nothing wrong with that. It's almost as if you believe the virus started in a Wuhan lab. Nobody knows that yet. Not even you.

People were banned from social media for spreading harmful misinformation about the virus. That was a common sense precaution. It was not specific to the Wuhan lab, misinformation about treatments and causes were also reason for banning. Much of the misinformation started by Trump himself. Hundreds of thousands died unnecessarily because of that buffoon.
And you're OK with that?

sugilite

9th July 2021, 18:29

Sure - which is why I ignore 95% of what Trump says, it's the 5% that isn't hyperbole that interests me.

Moments later? It was more like months. Much of the misinformation started by Trump himself. Hundreds of thousands died unnecessarily because of that buffoon.
And you're OK with that?
OK, this is likely to be pretty much the last time I quote TDL in order to respect the many that have him on ignore.
The reason I quoted this line is because I believe it gets to the crux of his TDS. TDL seems to have no problem with an (ex) president who spouts shit 95% of the time, and he also believes he can glean the remaining 5% balance left. He also seems to think that the average MAGAT can do the same - cough, cough the one utterance of the word peaceful for instance. So despite admitting 95 percent of Trumps rantings are Hyperbole (hy·per·bo·le - noun: hyperbole; exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally) he still finds ways to give trump free passes 95% of the time. And it all appears to be because trump triggers the left/socialist/commies that TDL is so fearful of. It is why TDL tried to make out that months was in fact "moments". As a result, TDL's posts emulate his heroes 95% ratio of hyperbole rubbish.

husaberg

9th July 2021, 18:48

Nothing wrong with that. It's almost as if you believe the virus started in a Wuhan lab. Nobody knows that yet. Not even you.

it would be the first time he claimed to have information that was likely in fact an outright lie.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/42615-The-firearm-thread?p=1131177693&highlight=police+met+internet#post1131177693

Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
, I would never ever EVER take a character reference for an individual, from someone who only knew them from an Internet Forum.

Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
how he was granted the ability to obtain the Firearms in the first place - Do you think an Internet Forum persona is an Acceptable Character Reference?

Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
His Referees were 2 people that had only known him from an Online Forum.

Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
The Chch Terrorist was not vetted properly by NZ Police (an online persona as a Character reference, what a Joke).

Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
Point of Order - 'Vetting' where he used Referees that only knew him from a Web Forum, and the Trans-Tasman checks are still not a thing...

Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
In case you missed it, tomorrow, someone could come from Aus, be a member of numerous hate groups online, use a Referree from who only knows them from an online Forum, get issued a FAL, purchase a Rifle and go shoot innocent people.

Royal commission
Did gaming friend know the individual?

Gaming friend had indeed “known” the individual for ten years, but the relationship was primarily online. They had been in the physical presence of the individual for approximately 21 days during the individual’s 2013 trip to New Zealand and on his return to New Zealand in August 2017.

The notes of the interview between gaming friend and the Waikato Vetting Officer set out a question “Do you know of any reason whatsoever as to why Police should refuse a firearms licence to the applicant?” and records the response as “No reasons known”.

Gaming friend was well aware of the individual’s extremist political opinions and that he was racist and Islamophobic. But they said nothing of this to the Waikato Vetting Officer. Their “no reasons known” response indicates that they saw them as not being relevant to whether the individual should be granted a firearms licence.

TLDR keyboard would likely spontaneously combust if he ever admitted he posted those lies.
watch how he will narcissistically minimize obfuscate and twist the lies instead of simply saying...... "shit i got that wrong."
Same as he does for trump.

FJRider

9th July 2021, 20:27

Well, you keep replying, so obviously I am of some use...

Some use ... little use ... same thing ... :whistle:

Of course, and I welcome that you express your opinion, my track record on always being on the side of free speech on this forum is well documented.

The only way your bullshit would be worth anything ... would be if you could spread it on the garden ... :whistle:

I'm going to ask you a series of questions in this regard:

1: Do you accept that what I posted was from the Academic Sources of this Movement and not some 'Right Wing conspiracy' as you put it?
2: Do you find those Quotes to be inherently racist?
3: Regardless of what my opinion is or whether you believe my interpretation - if you agree with questions 1 and 2 - are you prepared to accept that there is something very rotten with this theory?

1. Anything you post with a "Conspiracy" label is bullshit. Just believing in conspiracy theories and being suspicious about the actions of others is in some ways ... quite an adaptive thing to do. I know we don't necessarily want to trust everybody ... or trust everything that's happening around us. And so they (conspiracy theories) have always been with us. And to some extent ... I guess you could call everybody a conspiracy theorist. If you want to use that term at one point or another.

2. Anything that is said/written on the subject of race, with the mention against any (other ??) race ... or even promoting their own race ... is ... in itself racist.

3. That might entail agreeing with you. I have principals ... :whistle:

Those are one and the same thing.

Actually ... everybody has their own reasons for wearing a mask.

Some don't wear a mask ... for the very reasons some do wear a mask for. Because they feel its the right thing to do.

Reasoning it as piety ... is an display of piety in itself.

Do you wear a mask .. ??

If you accept the British Liberal framework that underpins our Society - then the answer is obvious.

A simple yes or no would have sufficed ... :whistle:

The sad part is people like to choose the bits of that Framework that are convenient and ignore the bits they don't like, without appreciating that all of them need to work in unison.

And if what you ignore ... does not affect anybody else ... all well and good. But it doesn't always work out that way.

There are certainly other Billionaires who have been funding groups that have done quite a lot or Rioting in recent times - with a much higher Body Count....

How many of them were presidents of the US of A and were actively supporting the riots .. ??

"When they came for the Communists, I did not speak out because I was not a Communist
When they came for the Gypsies, I did not speak out because I was not a Gypsy
When they came for the Jews, I did not speak out because I was not a Jew
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out"

I am neither Communist ... Gypsy or jew. Nor do I see their total extinction anytime soon.

Edit:

Also - if you think it won't be affecting your Family - the only reason you know about this is because parents noticed the consequences of this were being taught to their Children.

Look at the stories being told to NZ Parents in this day and age. The lies haven't stopped yet.

Pick the standard....

Pick the stopping point for the comparisons ... you point your finger ... and another will point back.

pritch

11th July 2021, 22:15

Y'all will be familiar with Rudy Giuliani, former mayor of New York, lawyer for Donald Trump. Well he may be ex lawyer for Donald Trump as Trump refuses to pay Giuliani for his work. This should not have come as a surprise to Rudy, Trump is famous for not paying his bills.

Rudy needs big bucks for his rapidly multiplying legal problems, all of which were incurred in the service of Trump. He has started a "go Fund Me" to raise five million dollars. Good luck with that Rudy. The cult members know that you are on the outer with their orange God so they too will ignore you. The Go Fund me is currently a bit short of the five million, as at today it's yet to make $10,000.

husaberg

11th July 2021, 22:24

https://pics.me.me/never-underestimate-the-power-of-stupid-people-in-large-groups-1862016.png
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihiu_gZr8gs

F5 Dave

12th July 2021, 12:34

R650R

12th July 2021, 16:48

"Don't do this"

then moments later "You absolutely Must do this" - and you wonder why some people may not trust the advice? Regardless of the Justification.

Then how do you explain the opposition to Lockdowns, Mask orders, Gathering limitations outside of America if it's 100% Trump?

The answer is that there is a Libertarian opposition to arbitrary rules That in several cases did not have the backing of Legislation.

So, how do you explain the Left-Wing narrative that the Wuhan Virus Lab was a 'Right Wing conspiracy'? Remember, it got you banned from Social Media for spreading 'False information'?

If the supposedly 'sane' group dismisses something to the point of censuring it, which later comes out that it is very plausible, what does that say about their perception of Reality?

Interesting..., meanwhile

https://youtu.be/sQzMeE3hHvw

pritch

12th July 2021, 17:26

Interesting..., meanwhile

Watching Murdoch rubbish will rot your brain.

husaberg

12th July 2021, 17:39

Watching Murdoch rubbish will rot your brain.

That's the interesting thing about Trumps lawsuit because if it successful his old mates at SKY and Fox will have to allow equal time for the democratic view points......:nya:

Former President Donald J. Trump on Wednesday sued three tech giants — Facebook, Twitter and Google — and the firms’ chief executives after the platforms took various steps to ban him or block him from posting.
Mr. Trump, , arguing that he has been censored wrongfully by the tech companies. Speaking about “freedom of speech” and the First Amendment — which applies to the government, not to private-sector companies

At the event and in court documents, Mr. Trump’s legal team argued that the tech firms amounted to state actors and thus the First Amendment applied to them.

Legal experts said similar arguments had repeatedly failed in the courts before.

“Mark Zuckerberg doesn’t work for the government, Jack Dorsey doesn’t work for the government,” Eric Goldman, a law professor at Santa Clara University School of Law and a co-director of the High Tech Law Institute, said of the Facebook and Twitter chief executives. “The idea that somehow, magically, we can treat them as an extension of the government is illogical.”

TheDemonLord

13th July 2021, 09:24

Moments later? It was more like months. Anybody with an IQ over room temperature should have been able to follow what was happening.

It's not the length of time that passes that is the issue here.

Monkey see monkey do.

Take for example Billy Te Kahika who gathered together every halfwit conspiracy theory he could find and made them "policy" for the last election. He didn't get much of his nonsense from this country.

I don't know who Billy Te Kahika is - nor do I care, the point you are trying to avoid is that there are a series of Libertarian principles (which don't need Trump to be applied) that one can reference to oppose what was mandated.

Nothing wrong with that. It's almost as if you believe the virus started in a Wuhan lab. Nobody knows that yet. Not even you.

People were banned from social media for spreading harmful misinformation about the virus. That was a common sense precaution. It was not specific to the Wuhan lab, misinformation about treatments and causes were also reason for banning. Much of the misinformation started by Trump himself. Hundreds of thousands died unnecessarily because of that buffoon.
And you're OK with that?

There's much to dissect in here.

Let me first be crystal clear - I do not have a horse in the race of 'Did it or didn't it start in the Wuhan lab' - It's not an argument I've championed.

My issue is entirely with the Censorship of the theory.

If we wind the clock back to when the theory started - On the face of it, the Theory is plausible - that is, you have a Bioresearch Lab, that specializes in the Type of Virus that was released, in the city that can be considered 'Ground Zero'. Based on the circumstantial theory, it's entirely possible that it could have originated from there.

Facebook, Twitter et al decided however that this reasonable theory (and I'll not accept the attempt to lump it in with an argument about censoring Treatment misinformation, since one could be banned for JUST talking about the Wuhan Virus lab without talking about alternative Treatments) was grounds for a Ban. In conjunction, you had a myriad of 'experts' come forward and ridicule this Theory (after Trump had publicized it).

Are you OK with Corporations censoring Plausible theories?

Subsequently, after the Regime change - and Saint Biden had blessed the theory as now being good - all those same 'experts' have come out and reversed their tune (and said they were encourage to lie, at the behest of certain interest groups).

Are you OK with experts lying, so as to justify Censorship?

You asked me if I'm OK with Hundreds of Thousands of people Dead?

Let me be brutally frank:

I'd rather hundreds of thousands of people died of their own Free will and free access to information than Censorship.

Because when the Government and Corporations in concert with each other decide to censor the Truth, Millions of Bodies aren't too far away.

TheDemonLord

13th July 2021, 10:02

OK, this is likely to be pretty much the last time I quote TDL in order to respect the many that have him on ignore.

Far be it from me to say what you should or shouldn't do, but it seems to me that coming into a Trump thread and complaining you see people quoting me is akin to walking through a swamp and complaining your boots got muddy....

It's not like I'm shy about my affiliations or my love of arguing....
The reason I quoted this line is because I believe it gets to the crux of his TDS. TDL seems to have no problem with an (ex) president who spouts shit 95% of the time, and he also believes he can glean the remaining 5% balance left. He also seems to think that the average MAGAT can do the same - cough, cough the one utterance of the word peaceful for instance.

I asked you if I should set the same standard for Biden (and revoke all of his 'Free passes') that yourself and the Media set for Trump.

I firstly find it curious that you have declined to answer this challenge. I'll posit that you know that the '95% shit' that you refer to is just that...

And if I was to apply the same literal interpretation to the '95% shit' that Biden says, it comes out looking just as (if not more so) bad than Trump.

In terms of gleaning the 5% that's good - I don't make any claims as to what the average 'MAGAT' does or doesn't think - I personally believe that on balance - within both the Republican and Democrat voter bases, there are the same approximate percentage of people that believe each camps blatant lies. Such is the nature of partisan politics.

When it comes to the 'One utterance' - it's not a statement that is open for interpretation, no trumpian hyperbole or other such understanding of the English Language required.

So despite admitting 95 percent of Trumps rantings are Hyperbole (hy·per·bo·le - noun: hyperbole; exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally) he still finds ways to give trump free passes 95% of the time.

He's a politician and a businessman - of course I take a large grain of salt with everything he says....

And it all appears to be because trump triggers the left/socialist/commies that TDL is so fearful of. It is why TDL tried to make out that months was in fact "moments". As a result, TDL's posts emulate his heroes 95% ratio of hyperbole rubbish.

Okay, let me try a different tack.

Pritch has already given us the Left-wing Apologia for Critical Race Theory in this thread (I believe referring to it as RWNJ Conspiracy theory).

I want to remind you that Trump banned the usage of CRT in government institutions and that Biden reversed said ban.

I now want to refer you to this Post:

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/188513-Trump?p=1131188250#post1131188250

Specifically the section where I outline 4 different quotes about CRT. From the Academics who study and promote this theory.

And I'm going to ask this - put aside all the things about Trump that I may or may not believe, put aside all the claims of Marxist infiltration that I've made:

When you read those quotes - What is your reaction? Do you find it good and noble or do you recoil from the words as those of absolute Racists?

From there it is more a question of you asking yourself - which group supports this and which opposes it.

pritch

16th July 2021, 09:09

I didn't think I'd agree with Putin on much but...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/15/kremlin-papers-appear-to-show-putins-plot-to-put-trump-in-white-house

F5 Dave

16th July 2021, 13:02

pritch

16th July 2021, 13:58

And now they know they can do it.

Que next nutjob. How about TV Evangelist who doesn't like gays, Jews. Muslims, people of colour, Women, or other undesirable factors to have any influence, or rights, in the Good old USA. Like in the old days. Which I guess is the playbook of the very word Conservative.

True. As with Trump's "Make America Great Again." People's version of when the US was great would vary somewhat, but yer average MAGAt would likely consider it was when segregation ruled and black people knew their place. Or else.

Senator Lindsay Graham is currently loudly announcing his support for Chic-fil-A, a fast food chain. Funny thing is that the chain is run by evangelicals who might be suspicious of Miss Lindsay.

pete376403

16th July 2021, 18:11

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/video/gen-mark-miley-recalls-election-concerns-reference-hitler-78858204

Godwins apply here?

pritch

16th July 2021, 19:01

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/video/gen-mark-miley-recalls-election-concerns-reference-hitler-78858204

Godwins apply here?

Godwin supspended his law when it was realised there were actual fascists in the White House. He could reinstate it, but he might be waiting until 2024?

Grumph

16th July 2021, 19:18

Interesting....a post from jasonU appeared - and disappeared. It was no more than expected, rubbish, but why pull it ?

husaberg

16th July 2021, 20:09

Interesting....a post from jasonU appeared - and disappeared. It was no more than expected, rubbish, but why pull it ?

did he post this
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a0148b6c7bb9990ba64133d02b4d0de2https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9b5b43d9d2425a5ba668d6b4262dab32

jasonu

17th July 2021, 00:47

Interesting....a post from jasonU appeared - and disappeared. It was no more than expected, rubbish, but why pull it ?

Censorship is alive and well in NZ.

husaberg

17th July 2021, 18:19

Censorship is alive and well in NZ.

Like when trump attempted to censor the media because he didn't like what they printed about him?
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/29/21273191/trump-twitter-social-media-censorship-executive-order-analysis-bias
https://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2020/05/27/here-is-a-catalog-of-trumps-threats-to-regulate-social-media/?sh=45ac867c2642
or shut down others
https://money.cnn.com/2016/06/14/media/donald-trump-media-blacklist/index.html
https://observer.com/2020/08/with-wars-on-china-and-twitter-trump-is-trying-to-censor-the-internet-like-china/

PS zero for two

National and Trump will both win in 2020.

You forget labour didn't actually win the election, Winston gave them the win. I see National winning the next one.

PS if you want to post about censorship you probably shouldn't say others should be banned from the site.......

sugilite

18th July 2021, 09:46

I'm no fan of John Bolton, he is a war hawk through and through. However it was interesting watch him talk about Trump, and he is right on the money, as he should be having worked directly with the cretin. Interesting to hear him say how everything was political for Trump. That certainly goes against what the last remaining trumpeteer on kb says - that being Trump was not a politician. I guess the Trumpeteer was too busy in the shadow of Trumps butt whilst kissing trumps ring to see the blindingly obvious. :devil2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-LN2Z2GtgM

pritch

18th July 2021, 17:10

I'm no fan of John Bolton, he is a war hawk through and through. However it was interesting watch him talk about Trump, and he is right on the money,

I have Bolton's book, The Room Where It Happened. As you say he's a hawk, it seems he has had two great ambitions in life: to bomb the DPRK, and to bomb Iran.

Although probably something of an arsehole, in the White House he was experienced and knew how things were supposed to work. In that, he was virtually alone. The chancers and grifters with whom Trump had surrounded himself were oblivious to how an administration was supposed to function. It was obvious to Bolton that he would not be there forever.

He's no hero. He had incriminating evidence on Trump that he withheld from the impeachment inquiry pending publication of his book. Not that it would have changed anything...

R650R

18th July 2021, 17:57

https://youtu.be/Z5UpwBZvsN8

pritch

18th July 2021, 19:56

[video

You do realise that Lauren Southern is a notorious alt right, whte nationalist? Life's too short to listen to her..

sugilite

18th July 2021, 20:02

I have Bolton's book, The Room Where It Happened. As you say he's a hawk, it seems he has had two great ambitions in life: to bomb the DPRK, and to bomb Iran.

Although probably something of an arsehole, in the White House he was experienced and knew how things were supposed to work. In that, he was virtually alone. The chancers and grifters with whom Trump had surrounded himself were oblivious to how an administration was supposed to function. It was obvious to Bolton that he would not be there forever.

He's no hero. He had incriminating evidence on Trump that he withheld from the impeachment inquiry pending publication of his book. Not that it would have changed anything...
Yes, and all that makes it less likely that he is lying about Trump.
So Trump is back lying through his teeth again, I reckon the more accurate stats for him would be 30% hyperbole, 69% pure lies and 1% actual substance.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/ap-fact-check-trump-makes-false-claims-about-arizona-audit-donald-trump-facts-arizona-trump-maricopa-county-b1885992.html

pritch

18th July 2021, 20:13

Then there's Katie Hopkins. She used to write in a Brit tabloid but repeated lawsuits costing shed loads of cash eventually put paid to that. She got two leftish commentators confused, wouldn't correct the error, and that probably cost her house because that particular multiple hundred thousand quid fuck up was to her own account. She was charged with spreading racial hatred in South Africa. She's permanently banned from Twitter. In short, she's a real sweetie.

Some idiot at Channel 7 invited her to Australia for the Big Brother TV show. Queue instant outrage from Australians unable to get home. Then a stupid YouTube clip from Katie about flouting isolation precautions. Ah well...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/18/far-right-commentator-katie-hopkins-to-be-dumped-by-channel-seven-after-sydney-hotel-quarantine-claims

husaberg

18th July 2021, 20:50

You do realise that Lauren Southern is a notorious alt right, whte nationalist?..
More out and out White supremacist ...

Websites for crowdfunding (GoFundMe), business services (Patreon) and banking (PayPal) have all barred Southern from using their services. YouTube demonetized her channel by June 2017 and was no longer running advertisements on it.

she "retired" as an activist in 2019 and is trying to recast herself as a reporter LOL

R650R

18th July 2021, 21:17

You do realise that Lauren Southern is a notorious alt right, whte nationalist? Life's too short to listen to her..

You do realise that that’s the label given to her by the notorious far left, wokerati globalist mainstream media puppets that have never objectively listened to her material?
Life’s to important to not listen to a diverse range of opinions....

Anyhow the vids about the hilarious absurdity of lefty journos trying to milk the capital hill saga....

The jewel being the headline that “surviving journalists” implies that some of them died there (none did of course) and the claims of PTSD....
It’s not Lauren but all the comments on the tweets taking the piss out of the battle scarred softies...

sugilite

21st July 2021, 12:25

Dear, Oh Dear, yet another Trump man charged with a federal crime. Only a matter of time before Trump himself goes down :laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHngVgfYzTo

pritch

21st July 2021, 13:19

Dear, Oh Dear, yet another Trump man charged with a federal crime. Only a matter of time before Trump himself goes down :laugh:

Trump has an extraordinary list of crooks and paedophiles among his friends. Five of his cabinet were referred to the Justice Dept for investigation but of course his Justice Dept took no action. Wilbur Ross may not be so lucky. And we all thought Wilbur Ross was sleeping...

On a lighter note.

husaberg

21st July 2021, 16:46

Trump by numbers
349400

pritch

26th July 2021, 16:27

The idiot has learned a new word. He has no idea what it means but he definitely likes the sound.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1419078829210021890/pu/vid/1280x720/4701vrULb3Uc2-MC.mp4?tag=12

husaberg

26th July 2021, 17:20

Compare the failure to concede with HW Bush's letter to Bill Clinton.

"Dear Bill, when I walked into this office just now I felt the same sense of wonder and respect that I felt four years ago. I know you will feel that, too," the letter began. "I wish you great happiness here."

"There will be very tough times, made even more difficult by criticism you may not think is fair. I'm not a very good one to give advice; but just don't let the critics discourage you or push you off course," he continued. "Your success now is our country's success. I am rooting hard for you. Good luck, George."

"I love that letter," Clinton told ABC News. "I thought it was vintage George Bush. I thought he meant it, but I also thought he was trying to be a citizen in the highest sense of the word. It was profoundly moving to me, personally."

The letter came after Bush delivered a conciliatory and hopeful concession speech on Nov. 4, 1992 -- one day after Clinton was projected to win the election.
"Here's the way we see it and the country should see it -- that the people have spoken, and we respect the majesty of the democratic system," Bush said in his opening remarks, vowing to work with the incoming administration on a "smooth transition" and urging his supporters to "stand behind our new president."

Or GW bush letter to Obama

Dear Barack,

Congratulations on becoming our President. You have just begun a fantastic chapter in your life.

Very few have had the honor of knowing the responsibility you now feel. Very few know the excitement of the moment and the challenges you will face.

There will be trying moments. The critics will rage. Your “friends” will disappoint you. But, you will have an Almighty God to comfort you, a family who loves you, and a country that is pulling for you, including me. No matter what comes, you will be inspired by the character and compassion of the people you now lead.

God bless you.

Sincerely,

GW
.

The three words that explain why Trump won't concede

“Follow the money” is the sage, albeit fictionalized, advice offered by Deep Throat to the dogged Washington Post reporters who unraveled the Watergate story, resulting in President Nixon’s resignation. Although Deep Throat’s specific words were created for the movie version, they still stand the test of time.

After a stunning array of court losses, including at the Supreme Court, and the passage of the electoral safe harbor deadline, speculation has intensified about whether the president will finally concede his loss to Joe Biden and halt his lawsuits. The answer lies in these simple instructions: “follow the money.”

Donald Trump has refused to publicly accept the results of an election that he overwhelmingly lost. He has engaged in disingenuous legal attacks that have grown increasingly dangerous. There are many suggested reasons for this unprecedented behavior. Trump cannot admit a loss because his brand is based on winning. He wants to stoke party passions to help the two Republican Senate candidates win the Georgia election that will determine control of the United States Senate. Trump wants to ensure party loyalty for a 2024 run. And, in the straightforward observation of his niece, Mary Trump, his behavior is consistent with a lifelong pattern of lying, cheating and stealing to win.

While all of these are warranted theories, there are more than 200 million additional reasons why Trump is refusing to admit defeat. That is how many dollars he has raised since he was defeated at the polls and falsely proclaimed himself the victim of a fraudulent election.
https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-the-three-words-that-explain-why-trump-wont-concede-20201211-ef2zl4ouezdebnniqgejqgaq2a-story.html