Stupid World

[Brian d marge]

Only one! - he never got stuck in again.....!Pulled out at the last minute I suspect

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[oldrider]

Rothschild secret weapon exposed in just two minutes :shifty:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hYzX3YZoMrs" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Brian d marge]

Rothschild secret weapon exposed in just two minutes :shifty:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/hYzX3YZoMrs" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>Anyone with a brain cell on active duty could have figured that one out ...... Oh wait I forgot...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[oldrider]

44,000 US (terrorist?) Troops on ‘Unknown’ Deployments Worldwide - WHY? http://news.antiwar.com/2017/12/08/44000-us-troops-on-unknown-deployments-worldwide/ Who needs enemies with friends like this? :innocent:

[oldrider]

Israel Will Return Lebanon to Stone Age, Intel Minister Threatens: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/48411.htm :corn:

[EJK]

Monalisa Perez, 20, pleaded guilty last week to second-degree manslaughter in the June death of 22-year-old Pedro Ruiz III, The Star Tribune reported . Perez has two young children with Ruiz.

Perez told investigators that Ruiz wanted to make a video of her shooting a bullet into a hardcover encyclopedia he was holding against his chest, according to court records.

Perez said she fired a .50-caliber Desert Eagle pistol from about a foot (30cm) away.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/100066273?cid=facebook.post.100066273

Guess she broke his heart.

[Akzle]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/100066273?cid=facebook.post.100066273

Guess she broke his heart.

darwin .

[oldrider]

"A Stunning Rebuke": 128 Nations Support UN Call For Trump To Withdraw Jerusalem Decision? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-21/un-delivers-stunning-rebuke-trump-128-nations-condemn-jerusalem-decision

Maybe Trump should just declare Jerusalem as capital of the USA? :scratch:

[Akzle]

"A Stunning Rebuke": 128 Nations Support UN Call For Trump To Withdraw Jerusalem Decision? http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-21/un-delivers-stunning-rebuke-trump-128-nations-condemn-jerusalem-decision

Maybe Trump should just declare Jerusalem as capital of the USA? :scratch:

fucken jews

[mashman]

Apple apologises for slowing down older iPhones with ageing batteries (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/29/apple-apologises-for-slowing-older-iphones-battery-performance)... bwaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa accidents happen eh. Just as well they'll help pay for a replacement :killingme

[Akzle]

Apple apologises for slowing down older iPhones with ageing batteries (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/dec/29/apple-apologises-for-slowing-older-iphones-battery-performance)... bwaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa accidents happen eh. Just as well they'll help pay for a replacement :killingme

yeha, and now they're reporting it all like "ok, we're sorry we didn't tell you, but it was in your best interests, and cos of all the apps YOU want, definitley not to scam you into buying a newer one" - but they were all fucken hush-hush-fuck-you until they were called out by some l33t n3rd who actually found it in the code.

[Graystone]

yeha, and now they're reporting it all like "ok, we're sorry we didn't tell you, but it was in your best interests, and cos of all the apps YOU want, definitley not to scam you into buying a newer one" - but they were all fucken hush-hush-fuck-you until they were called out by some l33t n3rd who actually found it in the code.

Wasn't it just some bloke who just ran benchmark comparisons? If it's been found in the code it would probably show if it was a result of the bug-fix for poor electrical design, or planned obsolescence.

[Brian d marge]

yeha, and now they're reporting it all like "ok, we're sorry we didn't tell you, but it was in your best interests, and cos of all the apps YOU want, definitley not to scam you into buying a newer one" - but they were all fucken hush-hush-fuck-you until they were called out by some l33t n3rd who actually found it in the code.It's called the Sony timer here in Japan .. Detroit even had a competition to see how close they could get it to the end of warranty

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Viking01]

Just for you, BanditBandit, since you enjoyed the earlier rabbit jumping so much.

http://www.euronews.com/2017/12/27/most-viewed-video-in-2017-goes-to-hobby-horses

[oldrider]

Military & Political Trends Of 2017 That Will Shape 2018 https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-30/military-political-trends-2017-will-shape-2018 Interesting script and video production? :corn:

[Akzle]

lorde - well done girlie. fuck jews.

(in roughly chronological order: )
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/100048687/fans-call-lorde-to-boycott-israel-after-she-announces-her-show-in-tel-aviv

http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/entertainment/2017/12/roseanne-barr-slams-bigot-lorde-for-cancelling-israel-tour-calls-for-boycott.html


"We are deeply disappointed that Lorde has succumbed to a small but loud group of extremist bullies. Boycotts of Israel will not lead to peace. Those who advocate them are not interested in negotiations between the two sides to this conflict or a two-state solution,"
where the fuck would i begin with this?? extemist bullies? hypocrisy much?
and i love how that whore can say what other people are interested in...especially since zion has been SO friendly and open and seeking to remedy their illegal occupation of palestine// o... wait on.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=11966865

just... fuck jews.

[oldrider]

Canadian prof exposes Left’s secret weapon for world domination in new documentary :- https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/canadian-prof-exposes-lefts-secret-weapon-for-world-domination-in-new-docum - Interesting stuff? :corn:

<iframe width="675" height="405" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/YWVmDSMl30s" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Ocean1]

Would all of you safety Nazis do everyone a favour and fuck off?

And the rest of you ffs stop bitching about "aorta do something", it just encourages them.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/100719307/kids-losing-ability-to-swim-as-more-schools-close-their-pools-says-water-safety-boss

[mashman]

Australia unveils plan to become one of world’s top 10 arms exporters (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/australia-unveils-plan-to-become-one-of-worlds-top-10-arms-exporters)

[Brian d marge]

Australia unveils plan to become one of world’s top 10 arms exporters (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/australia-unveils-plan-to-become-one-of-worlds-top-10-arms-exporters)Boomerangs that don't come back are sorely needed in the north

Those rebels will feel the power of the alliance ....
I wonder what NZ could sell? .....

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Katman]

I wonder what NZ could sell? .....

I expect Ocean would sell our soul.

[Brian d marge]

I expect Ocean would sell our soul.To whom?
Oscar hasn't any money ...
And even if the Chinese made an offer ..we would have to produce the goods ....

Which means we had better find one ...

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Akzle]

Australia unveils plan to become one of world’s top 10 arms exporters (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/australia-unveils-plan-to-become-one-of-worlds-top-10-arms-exporters)

fuk yea! straya!

most of the toys i play with like to eat winchester...

[Brian d marge]

fuk yea! straya!

most of the toys i play with like to eat winchester...Morning possums

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180130/fcccbc2c2a336e39dcd7d2b4ce9e35f3.jpg

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Ocean1]

Boomerangs that don't come back are sorely needed in the north

Those rebels will feel the power of the alliance ....
I wonder what NZ could sell? .....

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

We offered to pay for the Aussie frigates with small patrol craft made in NZ, which would have been a great boon to the local boat building industry and saved the taxpayer a huge wad of cash.

But Helen scuppered the idea, wouldn't have NZ producing the tools of war.



Or much of anything else for that matter.

[Ocean1]

I expect Ocean would sell our soul.

The market for hypocritical fuckwit souls is a bit flat atm, dude.

[oldrider]

Australia unveils plan to become one of world’s top 10 arms exporters (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/28/australia-unveils-plan-to-become-one-of-worlds-top-10-arms-exporters)

Now there is something Australia could be proud of and stand tall among nations! - :not: - Well international federal bankers at least! - FFS . :facepalm:

[mashman]

I wonder what NZ could sell? .....

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Turns out the waters not too good in places and the land is feeling things a tad, and with Tech Unemployment knocking on the door production is likely to be affected a smidge. First borns are a little old testament and souls are hard to obtain when the thing has you and not the other way around. Pffff. Tricky......... although...

I reckon throw in 7 or 8 desalination plants powered by geothermal if possible, if not then wind n sun n tide etc... and become the worlds fresh water supplier as they slowly poison themselves.

[oldrider]

Kept reading this as Pritch and thought WTF? - https://twitter.com/pitchjokes?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjc18y&refsrc=email&iid=f88c52ff540f479189efafe2fc141390&uid=47854944&nid=244+281153537

[oldrider]

:scratch: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVwb05uVQAIB6EC.jpg

[oldrider]

78 Years Ago Today Churchill Incinerated 100,000 Defenseless Civilians in Dresden https://russia-insider.com/en/78-years-ago-today-churchill-incinerated-100000-defenseless-civilians-dresden/ri22531?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter he blamed it on the servicemen under "his" command? :scratch:

[Akzle]

78 Years Ago Today Churchill Incinerated 100,000 Defenseless Civilians in Dresden https://russia-insider.com/en/78-years-ago-today-churchill-incinerated-100000-defenseless-civilians-dresden/ri22531?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter he blamed it on the servicemen under "his" command? :scratch:

war is hell

[FJRider]

78 Years Ago Today Churchill Incinerated 100,000 Defenseless Civilians in Dresden https://russia-insider.com/en/78-years-ago-today-churchill-incinerated-100000-defenseless-civilians-dresden/ri22531?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter he blamed it on the servicemen under "his" command? :scratch:

They should write articles for STUFF NZ.

[Woodman]

war is hell

And that particular war was 78 years ago.

[Akzle]

And that particular war was 78 years ago.

white guys, huh? never lern.

[husaberg]

78 Years Ago Today Churchill Incinerated 100,000 Defenseless Civilians in Dresden https://russia-insider.com/en/78-years-ago-today-churchill-incinerated-100000-defenseless-civilians-dresden/ri22531?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter he blamed it on the servicemen under "his" command? :scratch:

Point one official German figures place the death toll at 25000.
Point two nearly half the bombers were USAF
Point three the city had 110 factories supporting the war effort including aircraft parts, artililary and anti-aircraft guns, a poison gas factory and was a significant railway hub, it was ranked by the US one of the formost industrial sites in the Reich.
Point four the Germans were first to use incidendary weapons agains cilvian cities Rotterdam 14th May 1940 then Coventry blitz 14th November 1940 and then 29/30 December 1940.

[Akzle]

pintrest. asides from being horrendously coded and a piece of shit clickbait meta-website... threw this in a google search result (don't worry it was sandboxed and routed through proxies)

"77 best Radiation Caused Birth Deformities images on Pinterest "

:clap:

[oldrider]

Accidents do happen - (such as this one) - don't they? - Well they said it was an accident, they didn't realise it was an American ship! :oi-grr:

<iframe width="589" height="442" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZluFfyQ7sAI" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

100 Years Ago US Troops Attacked Russia's Pacific Coast and Committed Atrocities https://russia-insider.com/en/100-years-ago-us-troops-attacked-russias-pacific-coast-and-committed-atrocities/ri22341 Selective history overlooked emphasizing this bit? :shutup:

[Viking01]

Point one official German figures place the death toll at 25000.
Point two nearly half the bombers were USAF
Point three the city had 110 factories supporting the war effort including aircraft parts, artililary and anti-aircraft guns, a poison gas factory and was a significant railway hub, it was ranked by the US one of the formost industrial sites in the Reich.
Point four the Germans were first to use incidendary weapons agains cilvian cities Rotterdam 14th May 1940 then Coventry blitz 14th November 1940 and then 29/30 December 1940.


I saw your brief reply regarding bombing of Dresden, but felt it presented
a slightly one sided view (and a partial justification on Churchill's part).

I'm not a historian, but do have a strong interest in history. This reply is
a bit long (be warned), and there is no obligation to read it.

I have tried to reply to the points you raised in the same order.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

While I have a number of history texts, I have inserted Wiki links where the
online articles appear to provide reasonably even handed coverage. Also easier
than trying to scan and upload content.


1. Civilian Population Loss during Bombing of Cities in WW2

Agree that various parties (German and other) inflated the supposed death toll
for propaganda purposes (i.e. 100,00 ; 200,000), and that subsequent analysis
arrived at a total around 25,000.

However, I would argue that a largely civilian death toll of 25,000 is still a fairly
horrendous total (irrespective of the nationality of the victims).


You mention other European or UK cities for comparison (Rotterdam and Coventry)

a. Rotterdam suffered 885 civilian deaths when bombed in May 1940. The majority
of the deaths arose due to margarine oil tanks by the wharves that were hit, and
which then caused extensive fires.

[ Note: The wife had some Dutch family who were living in Rotterdam during the
bombing and subsequent occupation. Very interesting people to talk with when we
visited them in 1987, about two years before the Berlin Wall came down ]

b. Coventry had suffered several bombing raids mid to late 1940 and once in 1941
(est'd civilian death toll 1,235 )

We could add:

c. The London Blitz has reported a civilian death toll between 32,000 and 45,000
when bombed over the 8-9 month period between September 1940 and May 1941.

d. Hamburg reported a civilian death toll of 45,000 when fire-bombed in July 1943.

We could also add bombing raids that occurred later over Japan:

e. Tokyo - Fire bombing in March 1945 (Doolittle raids) - est'd 100,000 killed
f. Hiroshima - First A-bomb - April 1945 - est'd 90,000 - 145,000 killed
g. Nagasaki - Second A-bomb - April 1945 - est'd 40,000 - 80,000 killed

All of which were horrific in their own way.

Yes, the Germans may have been 'first' to have used incendiaries (intended to
destroy roofs of industrial buildings). Should we also note that the US was the
'first'to use A-bombs ?


But I would like to keep attention focused on what I believe were the key themes
of the original RT article, which were:

-That Dresden was not a significant enough military target to warrant bombing of
the civilian city centre,
and
-That Churchill was either directly or largely indirectly responsible for the Dresden
civilian death toll.


Given its proximity to the advancing Russian front at that time - as well as the
number of refugees streaming west to escape the Red Army, Dresden was known to
harbour a "high civilian population". As well as few in the way of bomb shelters.

Indeed, following the Dresden raid, Churchill was subsequently "called out" in the
House of Commons, and "accused" of perpetrating "terror bombing".

It appears he was quite willing to politically sidestep this accusation, and to
allow the head of the RAF "Bomber Command" (Arthur "Bomber" Harris) to accept
the responsibility for this operation.

Despite Harris's reputation - and willingness to undertake "area bombing" (instead
of "precision bombing" in order to reduce potential civilian casualty), it appears
he was still a little reluctant to accept responsibility for Dresden.


2. USAF and RAF

The timeline table included in the link at top shows that there were multiple bombing
attacks spanning October 1944 to April 1945; however, all raids but one were aimed
at the rail marshalling yards (and adjacent industrial areas).

The most well known bombing raid (14 February 1945) were indeed split between USAF
and RAF forces, but it was the RAF that chose to hit the civilian centre of the city.

The weather for that raid was cloudy, and the RAF forces did not necessarily have
clear sight of the areas that were being bombed. Question was also raised whether
the RAF had adequate maps for navigation.


3. Factories and Railways

Factories
I understand that the bulk of the industrial buildings lay well north of the city
centre, along with the main switching yards.

And while an estimated 150 factories (manufacturing a range of war materials and
synfuel) were thought to be present, nothing that I have read indicates that the
factories were targetted to any great extent during the USAF bombing raids.

Railways
I understand the main target of the bombings in 1945 were the railway lines and
switching yards, to prevent the shift of men and material to the war front.

There were two main rail lines (roughly NW - SE) through the wider city. And the
goal of hindering transport of men and materials could largely have been achieved
by concentrating on bombing of bridges plus the railways and switch yards.


4. Rationale for Bombing

Both Allies and Germans alike have argued over the real purpose of the fire bombing;
the “official” Allied rationale was that Dresden was a "major communications centre"
and that bombing it would hamper the German ability to support its army, which was
battling Soviet forces nearing Berlin at the time.

But the extent of destruction was, to many, disproportionate to the stated strategic
goal. Many believed that the attack was simply an attempt to "punish the Germans"
and to "weaken their morale".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11410633/Dresden-was-a-civilian-town-with-no-military-significance.-Why-did-we-burn-its-people.html

A memo issued to RAF airmen on the night of the attack indicated a secondary purpose
of the raid was to "show the Russians when they arrive [at Dresden] what [the British]
Bomber Command can do." Hold that thought for a minute !

5. Any Other Possible Reasons?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable

Churchill was avidly anti-communist (since the 1920's), he disliked Joe Stalin strongly,
and he feared that withdrawal of some US ground forces from western Germany (transfer
to the Pacific War theatre) might compromise the security of UK ground forces in Europe.

Within days of the war in Europe ending, Churchill surprised his Chiefs-of-Staff by asking
whether an Anglo-American force could force the Red Army back from the River Elbe. With
the goal of liberating areas as far as Poland.

He tasked his military planners to come up with a plan that could also include using German
personnel and what was left of Germany’s economic might. He even thought of a date for such
an assault – July 1st 1945. Four days before the UK general election. [Operation Unthinkable]

The Chief of the English Army, General Sir Alan Brooke, was appalled at the plan, likening
the Prime Minister to a warmonger. Brooke noted in his diary that Churchill was “longing
for another war”.

One of the reasons Churchill pressed the matter was the fact he knew about the Manhattan
Project and how close America was to developing atomic bombs passed the test phase. He
even told Brooke that if Stalin failed to listen to the West’s wishes, the US could target
Moscow, Stalingrad and then Kiev.

And where was this operation due to commence ? Dresden.

Fortunately, Truman declined the proposal, principally because he thought that the US might
require some Russia forces to participate in the defeat of Japan. Truman has gained Stalin's
agreement to this idea at Yalta, agreeing that Russia would start to attack Japan 3 months
after the end of the European war theatre.

And Stalin kept his word, starting attack on Japan on August 8th 1945 (3 months to the day)
- right inbetween the USAF dropping A-bombs on Japan (6th and 9th August 1945) as it so
happened.

[Note: Stalin learned of Churchill's plan soon after request had been made for its preparation]


6. Rebuilding of Important Buildings in Dresden

Dresden had been regarded as one of the cultural centres of Germany. One of the most notable
buildings was the Frauenkirke, which had a fine baroque structure. While it has been called
a cathedral, it was not officially ranked as such [ no bishop in residence ].

I can recall seeing the remains of the Frauenkirke in 1987, very much as in the small photo
shown in the link at top.

Funding and reconstruction of the Frauenkirke did not commence until after East and West
Germany had been reunited in 1991.

And strangely, the English were happy to be involved in the reconstruction effort. In Britain,
the Dresden Trust has the Duke of Kent as its royal patron and the Bishop of Coventry among
its curators. Dr. Paul Oestreicher, a canon emeritus of Coventry Cathedral and a founder of
the Dresden Trust, wrote: "This church is to Dresden what St. Paul's [Cathedral] is to London".


7. Churchill's History of WW2 and Personal Memoirs

"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it". This line is attributed to Churchill, but he
didn't actually say it. Though the gist is much the same, what he actually did say was:

"For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all parties to leave the past
to history, especially as I propose to write that history".

I think that history has been unduly kind to Churchill, undeservedly so. Perhaps a little
rebalancing is in order?


While it has been a matter of personal interest to have copies and have read his memoirs and
the six volume set "History of World War II", it has also been interesting to note some of the
topics which seem to have been omitted by Churchill from any real mention or discussion e.g.

a. Czechoslovakia - Standing up for Benes in 1938
b. The Holocaust - 1938 (Kristallnacht) through to 1945
c. The Rudolph Hess Affair - A possible secret peace deal with Hitler - 1940
d. Delay of the D-Day Invasion from 1942 to 1944
e. The Bengal Famine in India - 1943 - 1944
f. Liberation and Control of Greece - 1944 - 1946
g. Operation Unthinkable - 1945

Just to mention a few.

I see that Churchill's reputation has been polished again recently, with the release of the
movie "Darkest Hour". Yet I suspect that if the true details of the Rudolph Hess affair had
been exposed to the general public, their judgement of him might have been quite different.

You should ask yourself why Hess was incarcerated in Spandau prison until his death in 1987.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Hess


8. Churchill the Orator

Churchill has always been noted as an orator, and most commonly mentioned are four of his
speeches (the first three made in the House of Commons around the time of the Battle of
Britain):

a. Blood, Sweat and Tears - May 1940
b. Fight Them on the Beaches - June 1940
c. This was their Finest Hour - June 1940
d. An Iron Curtain Descending across Europe - May 1946

But there is a small degree of irony in respect to two of these four speeches:

The "We Will Fight Them on the Beaches" speech was plaigarised in part from the speech
by Robert Emmet (an Irish nationalist), as he stood in the dock sentenced of rebellion and
awaiting the death sentence by the English in 1803.

Churchill’s ancestry was linked to loyalism to Britain, as he was a direct descendent of the
Marquis of Londonderry who helped put down the 1798 United Irishmen rising. And barely
100 years later (1904), Churchill still "remained of the opinion that a separate Parliament
for Ireland would be both dangerous and impractical".

The Black and Tans of the 1920's were the brainchild of Churchill; he sent them to Ireland
to impose their will. Attacking both civilians and civilian property, they did Churchill proud,
rampaging across the country and carrying out reprisals.


The "An Iron Curtain Descending across Europe" was in part plaigarised from an editorial
written by Goebbels in early 1945, where he was contemplating a future situation where the
Nazis had been successful in defeating the Russians and consolidating the Third Reich.

But what was Churchill actually lamenting when he wrote and delivered his speech in 1946?
Was he upset about the recent take-over of various eastern European nations by Stalin's
armies in 1945?

No. It was the fact that the Russians had just refused to accept and ratify the one-sided
Bretton Woods Agreement offered to them, where all world trade would be conducted in
terms of the US dollar (and where USSR financial control would be ceded to US banks i.e.
the Fed).

Sound familiar to de-dollarisation today ?


9. Visiting These Cities

Apart from Coventry, I have been fortunate to visit all the other cities listed in part 1.

It is one thing to read a number of dead due to warime activity, but quite another to visit
their museums and memorials commemorating the dead (always quite sombre to see photos
of the death and destruction).

But apart from causing death, bombing destroyed some amazing buildings and architecture.
Which were an integral part of their culture.

In Germany in 2008, a collection of more than 3,000 aerial photographs of Germany before and
during the allied bombing campaign of WW2 was re-discovered. The collection presented the most
comprehensive record of how devastating the campaign was on the country's cultural heritage.

In case you are interested:

http://www.fotomarburg.de/bestaende/uebernahm/kieler

Cheers,
Viking

[husaberg]

1. Civilian Population Loss during Bombing of Cities in WW2

Agree that various parties (German and other) inflated the supposed death toll
for propaganda purposes (i.e. 100,00 ; 200,000), and that subsequent analysis
arrived at a total around 25,000.Agreed

However, I would argue that a largely civilian death toll of 25,000 is still a fairly
horrendous total (irrespective of the nationality of the victims).

You mention other European or UK cities for comparison (Rotterdam and Coventry)
a. Rotterdam suffered 885 civilian deaths when bombed in May 1940. The majority
of the deaths arose due to margarine oil tanks by the wharves that were hit, and
which then caused extensive fires.

[ Note: The wife had some Dutch family who were living in Rotterdam during the
bombing and subsequent occupation. Very interesting people to talk with when we
visited them in 1987, about two years before the Berlin Wall came down ]

b. Coventry had suffered several bombing raids mid to late 1940 and once in 1941
(est'd civilian death toll 1,235 )

We could add:

c. The London Blitz has reported a civilian death toll between 32,000 and 45,000
when bombed over the 8-9 month period between September 1940 and May 1941.

d. Hamburg reported a civilian death toll of 45,000 when fire-bombed in July 1943.

We could also add bombing raids that occurred later over Japan:

e. Tokyo - Fire bombing in March 1945 (Doolittle raids) - est'd 100,000 killed
f. Hiroshima - First A-bomb - April 1945 - est'd 90,000 - 145,000 killed
g. Nagasaki - Second A-bomb - April 1945 - est'd 40,000 - 80,000 killed

All of which were horrific in their own way. All bombing is horiffic i just pointed out the British did not start the targeting of cilivilians or terror bombing.
the difference in losses is acounted by the allies having achieved air superority and bigger heavy bomber forces.
Also the British limited their civilian losses by evacuating cities poulations to the country.


-That Dresden was not a significant enough military target to warrant bombing of
the civilian city centre,
and
-That Churchill was either directly or largely indirectly responsible for the Dresden
civilian death toll.


Given its proximity to the advancing Russian front at that time - as well as the
number of refugees streaming west to escape the Red Army, Dresden was known to
harbour a "high civilian population". As well as few in the way of bomb shelters.

Indeed, following the Dresden raid, Churchill was subsequently "called out" in the
House of Commons, and "accused" of perpetrating "terror bombing".

It appears he was quite willing to politically sidestep this accusation, and to
allow the head of the RAF "Bomber Command" (Arthur "Bomber" Harris) to accept
the responsibility for this operation.

Despite Harris's reputation - and willingness to undertake "area bombing" (instead
of "precision bombing" in order to reduce potential civilian casualty), it appears
he was still a little reluctant to accept responsibility for Dresden. US percision bombing is not accurate even though it was carried out generally in daytime with huge loses even with their better armed planes it should be noted at least 60 of the bombers missed the country of Grmany in this raid let alone the city and mistakenley bombed Poland instead



2. USAF and RAF

The timeline table included in the link at top shows that there were multiple bombing
attacks spanning October 1944 to April 1945; however, all raids but one were aimed
at the rail marshalling yards (and adjacent industrial areas).

The most well known bombing raid (14 February 1945) were indeed split between USAF
and RAF forces, but it was the RAF that chose to hit the civilian centre of the city.

The weather for that raid was cloudy, and the RAF forces did not necessarily have
clear sight of the areas that were being bombed. Question was also raised whether
the RAF had adequate maps for navigation.
The RAF bombers were guided by pathfinders (MOZZies) using radio location
As i pointed out 60 of the US bombers bombed the entire wrong country.



3. Factories and Railways

Factories
I understand that the bulk of the industrial buildings lay well north of the city
centre, along with the main switching yards.
And while an estimated 150 factories (manufacturing a range of war materials and
synfuel) were thought to be present, nothing that I have read indicates that the
factories were targetted to any great extent during the USAF bombing raids.


synfuel plants were targeted at the same time.T
360 RAF bombers targeted Bohlen that same night. Also as air superiority of the allies incresed the RAF did more daylight percision raids rather than area bombing.






Railways
I understand the main target of the bombings in 1945 were the railway lines and
switching yards, to prevent the shift of men and material to the war front.

There were two main rail lines (roughly NW - SE) through the wider city. And the
goal of hindering transport of men and materials could largely have been achieved
by concentrating on bombing of bridges plus the railways and switch yards.
US bomber were specifically targeting the railyard but as the weather was poor they bombed the center.
Railways and bridges are rather hard to target.

4. Rationale for Bombing

Both Allies and Germans alike have argued over the real purpose of the fire bombing;
the “official” Allied rationale was that Dresden was a "major communications centre"
and that bombing it would hamper the German ability to support its army, which was
battling Soviet forces nearing Berlin at the time.

But the extent of destruction was, to many, disproportionate to the stated strategic
goal. Many believed that the attack was simply an attempt to "punish the Germans"
and to "weaken their morale".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/11410633/Dresden-was-a-civilian-town-with-no-military-significance.-Why-did-we-burn-its-people.html

A memo issued to RAF airmen on the night of the attack indicated a secondary purpose
of the raid was to "show the Russians when they arrive [at Dresden] what [the British]
Bomber Command can do." Hold that thought for a minute !
All allies like to think they are better.

All German industrial and manufacturing centres were high priority targets. Dresden had been targeted prior.
but unsuccessfully until the raids.
Of course there are human elements at play with the bombing of Germany, but remember as i pointed out England did not bomb Germany's cities first.
Nor did they sink their unarmed merchant ships first etc.

The escalation into this form of war started with Germany.
Like it or not without the destruction of Germany's infrastructure more allied soldiers and civilians would have been lost. Dresden was a major German city 6th in size.
it was a manufacturing hub. 25,000 people were employed directly in manufacturing.
The losses were lower in the London blitz as Londoners had already been bombed WW1 and had effective defences plus a rather useful air raid bunker system (The underground)

[oldrider]

Have They Lied To Us About Absolutely EVERYTHING?? -- Bart Sibrel :rolleyes:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/bP6hDD8-FFI" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

Like it or not without the destruction of Germany's infrastructure more allied soldiers and civilians would have been lost.

And guess what else the destruction of Germany's infrastructure caused - the death of many thousands of Jews.

[oldrider]

Same Churchill different historian? :scratch:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LnZ0fXlEiUU" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

And guess what else the destruction of Germany's infrastructure caused - the death of many thousands of Jews.
We are all well versed that your answers to the Jewish question are the same as the Nazis Steve.

[oldrider]

As Oscars celebrate Winston Churchill, some wonder if he was more war criminal than war hero for starving Indians http://nationalpost.com/news/as-oscars-celebrate-winston-churchill-some-wonder-if-he-was-more-war-criminal-than-war-hero-for-starving-indians

Churchill was our leader - "which way did he go"? :confused:

[Brian d marge]

As Oscars celebrate Winston Churchill, some wonder if he was more war criminal than war hero for starving Indians http://nationalpost.com/news/as-oscars-celebrate-winston-churchill-some-wonder-if-he-was-more-war-criminal-than-war-hero-for-starving-indians

Churchill was our leader - "which way did he go"? :confused:The fat fkr wanted to use anthrax in one of his drunken stupors,. That would have made Europe unliveable for quite a while
Sanity prevailed


Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[oldrider]

Youtube Has Gone Full Blown 1984 Over P@rkland Psyop, Free Speech Under Attack Like Never Before on Internet http://investmentwatchblog.com/youtube-has-gone-full-blown-1984-over-prkland-psyop-free-speech-under-attack-like-never-before-on-internet/ :shutup:

[Brian d marge]

no more fumbling around in the dark then ...

[husaberg]

The fat fkr wanted to use anthrax in one of his drunken stupors,. That would have made Europe unliveable for quite a while
Sanity prevailed


Yet the country you live in (Japan) Actually used Cholera, Typhoid, Paratyphoid, Anthrax and Plague on civilians during WW2
Germany also used Anthrax in WW1.

[Katman]

An interesting read.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1326439/

Particularly this bit....


After the war, the Soviets convicted some of the Japanese biowarfare researchers for war crimes, but the USA granted freedom to all researchers in exchange for information on their human experiments. In this way, war criminals once more became respected citizens, and some went on to found pharmaceutical companies.

[Katman]

And this bit.....


Soon after the war, the US military started open-air tests, exposing test animals, human volunteers and unsuspecting civilians to both pathogenic and non-pathogenic microbes (Cole, 1988; Regis, 1999). A release of bacteria from naval vessels off the coasts of Virginia and San Francisco infected many people, including about 800,000 people in the Bay area alone. Bacterial aerosols were released at more than 200 sites, including bus stations and airports. The most infamous test was the 1966 contamination of the New York metro system with Bacillus globigii— a non-infectious bacterium used to simulate the release of anthrax—to study the spread of the pathogen in a big city.

[husaberg]

And this bit.....
While i doubt you can differentiate the difference, I'd wager that others more intelligent would be able to appreciate the less than subtle difference, between Japan and Germany spreading well known deadly pathogens such as Anthrax and Cholera and the plague. The spreading of which resulted in the deaths of 10,000’s (Some say up to 200,000 people). Compared to the US spreading of what was considered to be harmless bacteria and other markers, used only to simulate how a biological attack might spread, where 1 single person died.

[oldrider]

Britain's little look over here attention grabber - while US and Israel do their thing in Syria? - https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-13/russia-threatens-uk-one-does-not-give-24hrs-notice-nuclear-power

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201802281062090464-us-russia-guerilla-syria/?utm_source=adfox_site_41917&utm_medium=adfox_banner_2425036&utm_campaign=adfox_campaign_626011&ues=1

https://southfront.org/u-s-officially-threatens-to-strike-syrian-army-if-it-continues-operation-in-eastern-ghouta/

It has been said that US is occupied territory of Israel? - Proof of the pudding? :- https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-pick-offers-a-window-into-trumps-thinking-on-israel-iran/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Akzle]

Britain's little look over here attention grabber - while US and Israel do their thing in Syria? - https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-13/russia-threatens-uk-one-does-not-give-24hrs-notice-nuclear-power

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201802281062090464-us-russia-guerilla-syria/?utm_source=adfox_site_41917&utm_medium=adfox_banner_2425036&utm_campaign=adfox_campaign_626011&ues=1

https://southfront.org/u-s-officially-threatens-to-strike-syrian-army-if-it-continues-operation-in-eastern-ghouta/

It has been said that US is occupied territory of Israel? - Proof of the pudding? :- https://www.timesofisrael.com/pompeo-pick-offers-a-window-into-trumps-thinking-on-israel-iran/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

lol. rbcifgip. :niceone;

[oldrider]

US Commander Says He Is Ready To Risk The Lives of His Troops to Defend Israel https://needtoknow.news/2018/03/us-commander-says-he-is-ready-to-risk-the-lives-of-his-troops-to-defend-israel/ That's a risk "he" is ready to take??? :scratch:

[oldrider]

Europeans Are Waking Up! | How Even Ordinary People Are Beginning to Take Action Against Immigration - Too little too late? :scratch:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HlP84iYwVbY" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Woodman]

Europeans Are Waking Up! | How Even Ordinary People Are Beginning to Take Action Against Immigration - Too little too late? :scratch:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HlP84iYwVbY" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Looks like karma to me.

[Swoop]

Europeans Are Waking Up! | How Even Ordinary People Are Beginning to Take Action Against Immigration - Too little too late? :scratch:

Well, that cunt merkel has a LOT to answer for.

Partially why Britain is trying to free itself of the EU chains, which is a very good move. All European nations have lost national identity and traditions because of the Brussels bureaucrats and their meddling.
France seems to have suffered greatly, but after WW3 the loser should be forced to keep France.;)

[Ocean1]

Perhaps the socialist that can't distinguish between a commercial entity and his policy piggy bank should be the one to step down...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102451908/shane-jones-calls-for-air-nz-chair-to-step-down-asks-ceo-to-step-down-or-shut-up

[Banditbandit]

Perhaps the socialist that can't distinguish between a commercial entity and his policy piggy bank should be the one to step down...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102451908/shane-jones-calls-for-air-nz-chair-to-step-down-asks-ceo-to-step-down-or-shut-up

Perhaps AirNZ should think about cooperate citizenship ..

Perhaps AirNZ should consider the wishes of it's shareholder with 52% holdings

Perhaps AirNZ should consider how many times the Government has given them corporate welfare ...

[Ocean1]

Perhaps AirNZ should think about cooperate citizenship ..

Perhaps AirNZ should consider the wishes of it's shareholder with 52% holdings

Perhaps AirNZ should consider how many times the Government has given them corporate welfare ...

Yeah Jones doesn't know how it works either. They're not in the business of subsidising air travel, and Jones would be the first one to cry if they lost money.

If he want's flights from non-viable centres it's HIS regional economic development budget that subsidies should be coming out of. He's a belligerent wanker, if he survives the term his behaviour will cost labour dearly.

[Akzle]

Perhaps the socialist that can't distinguish between a commercial entity and his policy piggy bank should be the one to step down...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102451908/shane-jones-calls-for-air-nz-chair-to-step-down-asks-ceo-to-step-down-or-shut-up

you should definitely vote about that

[Brian d marge]

you should definitely vote about thatAs opposed to actually do something

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Graystone]

As opposed to actually do something

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

...build a bridge perhaps?

[Brian d marge]

...build a bridge perhaps?A big beautiful wall ... Much better

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Ocean1]

Seriously, where do they get these people? :laugh:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102507145/minister-for-women-julie-anne-genter-says-old-white-men-should-move-on-from-company-boards

[Graystone]

A big beautiful wall ... Much better

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Make love, not wall.

[oldrider]

Make love, not wall.

Again - not actually making love (or walls) but still producing the same product, complete with a whole lot of unnecessary anxiety issues? https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/shocked-men-discover-sperm-donation-used-to-sire-children-not-scientific-re :scratch: Who am I? etc etc? :shutup:

[carbonhed]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1131090628]Seriously, where do they get these people? :laugh:

Racist, sexist and ageist in one shot. A perfect trifesta of stupid.

It used to be that you could think the Greens were wrong but still have some respect their integrity... these days under Shaw (who looks great in a suit BTW) it's just fuckup after fuckup after fuckup. The 5% threshold beckons. Couldn't happen to a bigger bunch of dickheads... other than WinstonFirst of course.

[oldrider]

Dual Citizenship -- Loyal to Whom? http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html By deception (duplicity) do war? :mellow: never? :rolleyes:

[Viking01]

With Trump's US tariffs going into effect last Friday, estimated to affect China by up to
approx US$50-60 billion annually, it has been interesting to see how China might retaliate.

And apart from:

1. Advising the US that tariffs are detrimental for world trade in general, and
2. Identifying certain products that are iconic US products (some of which are manufactured
in the home states of key US Congress men supporting the tariffs)

(and only to the tune of only US$3 billion), it has been "relatively quiet" on some of the main
Chinese websites the last two days. No mention of China dumping USD Treasuries (as yet).

Surely, the Chinese must have thought up some asymmetric approach, rather than chose to
compete directly in a potentially damaging trade war with the US ?

So it was with interest when I read the following:

https://www.rt.com/news/422255-us-china-garbage-recyclables-import/

Stating that in 2016 alone, American scrap exports to China totaled $5.6 billion and provided
US industry with 155,000 jobs. And it could also affect all 50 US states.

The US press has wasted no time in complaining how bad this decision could be (for the US).

Unforeseen consequence ? I watch the news for further such events.

[oldrider]

‘We Don’t Even Know Where He Is’: Sergei Skripal’s Russian Family Speak Out https://russia-insider.com/en/we-dont-even-know-where-he-sergei-skripals-russian-family-speak-out/ri22925?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter :wait: Not a good look for Britain whatever the final outcome! :no:

[husaberg]

And this bit.....


While i doubt you can differentiate the difference, I'd wager that others more intelligent would be able to appreciate the less than subtle difference, between Japan and Germany spreading well known deadly pathogens such as Anthrax and Cholera and the plague. The spreading of which resulted in the deaths of 10,000’s (Some say up to 200,000 people). Compared to the US spreading of what was considered to be harmless bacteria and other markers, used only to simulate how a biological attack might spread, where 1 single person died.


You are very quiet on the 100 people the Russians killed with their little Anthrax incident Steve
http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/human-body/the-biological-chernobyl-day-death-came-on-the-wind/news-story/03bbe01846705463bd39800334d472bb
Could it be that that doesn't suit your anti American pro Russian narrative?

Of course seeing as they had in 1972, the USSR has signed a biological weapons control treaty that precluded such research I would see why you would not want it brought up.:laugh:

[oldrider]

Shocking images of VW cars dumped in Californian desert by German manufacturer after it was forced to buy back 350,000 cars for $7billion over diesel scandal

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5562609/Shocking-images-VW-cars-dumped-Californian-desert.html#ixzz5BNmAiOvZ

[oldrider]

Despite Gun Ban and Knife-Control, London Violence Surges Past New York City’s http://theantimedia.com/london-gun-ban-knife-nyc/ :corn:

[oldrider]

Look "anywhere" but never ever notice whats happening in Palestine? https://www.globalresearch.ca/palestine-all-the-gods-are-with-you-but-none-dares-scream-murder/5634601 :oi-grr: . Nothing going on there? :scratch: May God be with you! :confused:

[Viking01]

https://journal-neo.org/2018/04/04/how-much-of-a-poodle-boris-really-is/

[oldrider]

https://journal-neo.org/2018/04/04/how-much-of-a-poodle-boris-really-is/


One look at that picture quickly confirms that boxing is another pursuit that Boris should never get involved in - he reeks inability and incompetence - Oh alas poor Boris! :o

[Banditbandit]

Despite Gun Ban and Knife-Control, London Violence Surges Past New York City’s http://theantimedia.com/london-gun-ban-knife-nyc/ :corn:

Not as true as it first appears

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/london-murder-rate-new-york-compare-worse-stabbings-knife-crime-teenagers-statistics-figures-a8286866.html

[husaberg]

Not as true as it first appears

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/london-murder-rate-new-york-compare-worse-stabbings-knife-crime-teenagers-statistics-figures-a8286866.html

Yip it seems oldies spreading "fake news"
There were 116 murders in London in 2017, fewer than half New York’s annual total of 290. (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-york/articles/2018-01-05/new-york-city-ends-the-year-with-290-murders)

[Viking01]

Yes, I admit it, I'm an Oldie spreading some more Fake News ..... 8-)

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201804071063318093-absurdities-in-the-skripal-case/

But in my defence, your honour, I didn't make it up.

[oldrider]

UN unable to 'independently verify the allegations' of chemical attack in Douma https://www.rt.com/news/423691-un-unable-verify-douma/ but Trump must have his war? :weird:

[Katman]

.....but Trump must have his war?

The guy is a fucking lunatic.

http://www.ladbible.com/news/news-get-ready-russia-the-missiles-are-coming-trumps-threat-to-putin-20180411?source=facebook

[Katman]

https://www.globalresearch.ca/on-the-brink-of-a-full-blown-war-reports-of-nuclear-submarines-on-the-way-to-syria/5635667

[oldrider]

The guy is a fucking lunatic.

http://www.ladbible.com/news/news-get-ready-russia-the-missiles-are-coming-trumps-threat-to-putin-20180411?source=facebook


So he says he "doesn't care" - response from Granny to us as kids - Don't care was made to care, don't care was hung! - Dead man walking? :weird:

[Viking01]

Afternoon.

There may be a few of you that eagerly await the latest tweets from the
US Tweeter-in-Chief, and wonder whether things can get any madder than
they already are.

Well, I can't predict the future, but I can help you relive some of those
past events like they were just last week (or any number of weeks ago,
from the time of Trump's election back in 2016 in fact).

I'm not sure why you would want to (though in my case it was to try
and settle a wee discussion that was being had).

See the website:

https://theweeklylist.org/

Each weekly post has quite a few events listed, and each individual entry
is about 2-3 lines in length (just a very quick summary).

The website has a 'Search' function that lets you search across all weekly
posts. You can enter a keyword and find all entries that match. [ Note: If
you try and use multiple keywords, it assumes the words are present as
contiguous text.]

When you get a Result list, passing the browser cursor across each entry
shown in the Result list then shows a "pop-up" (echoing the content of the
entry you are currently positioned on). The content displayed obviously
changes as you move the cursor up/down the list.


The following link gives you some history as to how the website came into
existence (if you really want to know).

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/44143-yes-we-are-like-frogs-in-boiling-water-with-trump-as-president

Cheers,
Viking

[oldrider]

Jimmy Dore and Tucker Carlson united. No war in Syria! http://theduran.com/jimmy-dore-and-tucker-carlson-united-no-war-in-syria-video/

<iframe width="662" height="403" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DbQB1EQ32CE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

Jimmy Dore and Tucker Carlson united.

Great video. Should be compulsory viewing.

[Katman]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/goldman-asks-is-curing-patients-a-sustainable-business-model.html

[mashman]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/goldman-asks-is-curing-patients-a-sustainable-business-model.html

Oceanomics.

[Graystone]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/11/goldman-asks-is-curing-patients-a-sustainable-business-model.html

Makes a good case for nationalisation of big pharma, of course to do that you'd need universal healthcare, and of course to do that you'd need to raise taxes, and of course to do that you'd have to educate dumb fucks about the difference between socialism and universally provided healthcare.

But of course to do any of that, you'd need to believe humans have a right to increased lifespans and overcrowding the planet's limited resources.

[mashman]

But of course to do any of that, you'd need to believe humans have a right to increased lifespans and overcrowding the planet's limited resources.

From 1999. (http://edition.cnn.com/US/9910/12/population.cosumption/) Go kill the unproductive 3 billion of the planet and next to nothing happens in terms of resources. Overpopulation? Nah, just shit resource usage to float economies... but ya know, dumb fucks still thinking that using 133% of the planet each year to maintain life today is down to overpopulation. Brainless suckers.

[Ocean1]

Makes a good case for nationalisation of big pharma, of course to do that you'd need universal healthcare, and of course to do that you'd need to raise taxes, and of course to do that you'd have to educate dumb fucks about the difference between socialism and universally provided healthcare.

But of course to do any of that, you'd need to believe humans have a right to increased lifespans and overcrowding the planet's limited resources.

You do know that humans are exponentially healthier than they've ever been, right?

And that's driven almost exclusively by private industry?

And that nationalisation of anything is the very definition of socialism?

So your assertion that healthcare is a "right" isn't in good company, there.

[Graystone]

You do know that humans are exponentially healthier than they've ever been, right?

And that's driven almost exclusively by private industry?

And that nationalisation of anything is the very definition of socialism?

So your assertion that healthcare is a "right" isn't in good company, there.

Was driven. When healthcare starts being able to cure all things, it isn't going to be profitable to do so, so the driver of private industry will be less effective.

Socialism is far more than healthcare, nationalised healthcare is just like nationalised roads, still good as gold for a capitalist society.

Healthcare is not some universal right, but it is right that we should make it one.

[Graystone]

From 1999. (http://edition.cnn.com/US/9910/12/population.cosumption/) Go kill the unproductive 3 billion of the planet and next to nothing happens in terms of resources. Overpopulation? Nah, just shit resource usage to float economies... but ya know, dumb fucks still thinking that using 133% of the planet each year to maintain life today is down to overpopulation. Brainless suckers.

Sounds right, by definition the unproductive will use fuck all resource apart from charity from the productive.

As for the rest, sure eugenics is a great answer, bit hard to sell though.

[Ocean1]

Was driven. When healthcare starts being able to cure all things, it isn't going to be profitable to do so, so the driver of private industry will be less effective.

Socialism is far more than healthcare, nationalised healthcare is just like nationalised roads, still good as gold for a capitalist society.

Healthcare is not some universal right, but it is right that we should make it one.

Interpolating historic healthcare success shows differently. It's gone from curing fuck all to curing most things and shows no sign of becoming unprofitable along the way.

Sure, a single national provider should enjoy economies of scale not available to smaller entities. Sometimes that might even make up for the lack of direct accountability and competition. But where the objective is the redistribution of healthcare funds I prefer to call it charity.

And allocating "rights" irrespective of costs is not a viable long term strategy.

[Graystone]

Interpolating historic healthcare success shows differently. It's gone from curing fuck all to curing most things and shows no sign of becoming unprofitable along the way.

Sure, a single national provider should enjoy economies of scale not available to smaller entities. Sometimes that might even make up for the lack of direct accountability and competition. But where the objective is the redistribution of healthcare funds I prefer to call it charity.

And allocating "rights" irrespective of costs is not a viable long term strategy.

So what about extrapolation...

Seems to be working fine so far, in fact you can correlate how many 'rights' we all have with hight quality of life, ie, both have been increasing for ages!

[Brian d marge]

You do know that humans are exponentially healthier than they've ever been, right?

And that's driven almost exclusively by private industry?

And that nationalisation of anything is the very definition of socialism?

So your assertion that healthcare is a "right" isn't in good company, there.
three kg of what ever u smoke

Ill pay for the shipping

granted the viking aint been over in a few years but as for food and stuff AND medicine ,,,,,, ill sit out on me limb and throw bullshyt in ur general direction

[Ocean1]

So what about extrapolation...

Seems to be working fine so far, in fact you can correlate how many 'rights' we all have with hight quality of life, ie, both have been increasing for ages!

Which is not causation. In fact the burgeoning "rights" we all have is simply one feature of the recent massive increase in living standards, which is a result of productivity improvements caused by technology advances.

Before redistributing the fruits of that extra productivity you might ask if that'll cause it to regress. And even if not whether it's sustainable.

[Graystone]

Which is not causation. In fact the burgeoning "rights" we all have is simply one feature of the recent massive increase in living standards, which is a result of productivity improvements caused by technology advances.

Before redistributing the fruits of that extra productivity you might ask if that'll cause it to regress. And even if not whether it's sustainable.

I see, so the correlation of private pharma and increased quality of pharmaceuticals means it is caused by it's privateness, not technology, but the correlation of 'rights' with increased quality of life is caused only by technology? Double standard much?

Course it is. Interpolate trends and apply causation based on what one wants to see, it's increasing so it cannot stop right :laugh:

[mashman]

Sounds right, by definition the unproductive will use fuck all resource apart from charity from the productive.

As for the rest, sure eugenics is a great answer, bit hard to sell though.

"But of course to do any of that, you'd need to believe humans have a right to increased lifespans and overcrowding the planet's limited resources.". Population isn't the issue was my point... thanks for agreeing.

Are you saying that gene therapy is required to make the unproductive more productive? Somewhat ironically, if you "cure" everyone of that "malady" and set out to provide them with the same standard of living as we have today, then yes, you will then be overpopulating the planet. There's more than enough to go around and plenty for spacey sciency toys too etc... so long as we stop creating the shit that takes resource, human and material, aware from such pursuits. That is economically sustainable, just not economically sustainable from a financial perspective, and that's where the real cognitive dissonance, I mean problems start to raise their head.

Tis funny bloody though and raises some serious concerns about the boys at the banks who seem unable to be able to work out something as simple as, "When there are no more customers will we still be making a profit.". Such brainlessness would certainly explain why we're going in the opposite direction of sustainability.


three kg of what ever u smoke

Ill pay for the shipping

granted the viking aint been over in a few years but as for food and stuff AND medicine ,,,,,, ill sit out on me limb and throw bullshyt in ur general direction

Vikings? dude, wtf, just have sanitation workers quit for a year and we'll see just how useful medical science is. After all, it would seem as though the medical profession are taking credit for all sorts of human benefits when basic hygiene and sanitation is clearly the primary, by far, reason for our

[Viking01]

three kg of what ever u smoke

Ill pay for the shipping

granted the viking aint been over in a few years but as for food and stuff AND medicine ,,,,,, ill sit out on me limb and throw bullshyt in ur general direction


Yes, I realise that it's been about 1,000 years since we were last
over to chlorinate the existing UK gene pool and improve its quality.

And that from what is happening in the UK at the moment, another
visit is evidently long overdue.

But we're being to think that this time, even our restorative powers
may well not be enough. And frankly, we're not sure it's worth the
effort.

Cheers,
Viking

[Ocean1]

I see, so the correlation of private pharma and increased quality of pharmaceuticals means it is caused by it's privateness, not technology, but the correlation of 'rights' with increased quality of life is caused only by technology? Double standard much?

Course it is. Interpolate trends and apply causation based on what one wants to see, it's increasing so it cannot stop right :laugh:

I never mentioned "pharma", specifically. But yes, industry, (almost all of it private) produces the technology responsible for the improvement in the quality of life, some of which you chose to call "rights". Get yer causal links straight.

Course what is what? If you're implying industry in general, or health care tech development in particular is immune to the deleterious effects of socialism I suggest a remedial course in history may be in order.

[Graystone]

"But of course to do any of that, you'd need to believe humans have a right to increased lifespans and overcrowding the planet's limited resources.". Population isn't the issue was my point... thanks for agreeing.

Are you saying that gene therapy is required to make the unproductive more productive? Somewhat ironically, if you "cure" everyone of that "malady" and set out to provide them with the same standard of living as we have today, then yes, you will then be overpopulating the planet. There's more than enough to go around and plenty for spacey sciency toys too etc... so long as we stop creating the shit that takes resource, human and material, aware from such pursuits. That is economically sustainable, just not economically sustainable from a financial perspective, and that's where the real cognitive dissonance, I mean problems start to raise their head.

Tis funny bloody though and raises some serious concerns about the boys at the banks who seem unable to be able to work out something as simple as, "When there are no more customers will we still be making a profit.". Such brainlessness would certainly explain why we're going in the opposite direction of sustainability.



Vikings? dude, wtf, just have sanitation workers quit for a year and we'll see just how useful medical science is. After all, it would seem as though the medical profession are taking credit for all sorts of human benefits when basic hygiene and sanitation is clearly the primary, by far, reason for our

Population remains the issue, if we had less, we would use less.

Another issue is the makeup of that population, you want to change that, good luck! Eugenics, dictatorships, wars, genocides, utopian dreamlands, all these are options to change that, probably similarly hard to sell...

[Graystone]

I never mentioned "pharma", specifically. But yes, industry, (almost all of it private) produces the technology responsible for the improvement in the quality of life, some of which you chose to call "rights". Get yer causal links straight.

Course what is what? If you're implying industry in general, or health care tech development in particular is immune to the deleterious effects of socialism I suggest a remedial course in history may be in order.

I did, context is actually quite important.

Course it is sustainable. We can cherry pick trending data to 'show' causality just as you do...

[mashman]

Population remains the issue, if we had less, we would use less.

Another issue is the makeup of that population, you want to change that, good luck! Eugenics, dictatorships, wars, genocides, utopian dreamlands, all these are options to change that, probably similarly hard to sell...

You did see that 20% - 80% resource usage thing before right? 80% already use a lot lot lot less than the 20%. It's not a population issue. Sounds like you're being willfully ignorant.

They are hard to sell. Primarily due to willful ignorance.

[Graystone]

You did see that 20% - 80% resource usage thing before right? 80% already use a lot lot lot less than the 20%. It's not a population issue. Sounds like you're being willfully ignorant.

They are hard to sell. Primarily due to willful ignorance.

You did see the second part of my post right? Where I pointed to the makeup of that population as another issue? You're literally ignoring part of the issue (and basically my entire post) while calling me willfully ignorant :laugh: you're an extra special sort of stupid aren't you? Go into the corner and ask Katman to share his crayons...

[Katman]

Go into the corner and ask Katman to share his crayons...

I don't share my crayons.

[Graystone]

I don't share my crayons.

Eat less, share more, poop normal.

[Katman]

Eat less, share more, poop normal.

Thanks for your concern.

[mashman]

You did see the second part of my post right? Where I pointed to the makeup of that population as another issue? You're literally ignoring part of the issue (and basically my entire post) while calling me willfully ignorant :laugh: you're an extra special sort of stupid aren't you? Go into the corner and ask Katman to share his crayons...

Makeup of a population on a planet with global problems bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h ahaaaaaa. Well, you had a chance to prove that you're not willfully ignorant by putting forwards a coherent argument instead of some bullshit cohort response... but as per usual you choose a different path and blame others for your shortcomings. I guess you can deny the evidence that way and blame some cohort like the divisive little cunt you show in virtually ever post you make. Just clearly obvious observations. I Am an extra special kind of stupid though. Still get the better of you on every single occasion though... but thanks for yet another example that proves the observations.

[Graystone]

Makeup of a population on a planet with global problems bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha h ahaaaaaa. Well, you had a chance to prove that you're not willfully ignorant by putting forwards a coherent argument instead of some bullshit cohort response... but as per usual you choose a different path and blame others for your shortcomings. I guess you can deny the evidence that way and blame some cohort like the divisive little cunt you show in virtually ever post you make. Just clearly obvious observations. I Am an extra special kind of stupid though. Still get the better of you on every single occasion though... but thanks for yet another example that proves the observations.

Are you properly medicated?

[mashman]

Are you properly medicated?

Are you as retarded in real life?

[Graystone]

Are you as retarded in real life?

That'd be a no then, seriously, go see someone and get help. You're clearly a few screws loose of a full deck.

[mashman]

That'd be a no then, seriously, go see someone and get help. You're clearly a few screws loose of a full deck.

Was that it? Wow. When the weak fold they really do fold like underwater paper tables. I "spoke" with a few guys like you recently. They're running for parliament. Willfully ignorant too. You'd fit in really really well should you feel the need to do something about that population issue... Instead of using your perception to blame others for the lack of change that is. ommmmmmmmmmmm.

[Graystone]

Was that it? Wow. When the weak fold they really do fold like underwater paper tables. I "spoke" with a few guys like you recently. They're running for parliament. Willfully ignorant too. You'd fit in really really well should you feel the need to do something about that population issue... Instead of using your perception to blame others for the lack of change that is. ommmmmmmmmmmm.

Take a look in the mirror mate, somehow you read my post pointing out the makeup of population was a cause of overused resources, and decided that I was full of shit and actually the cause was the makeup of the population (given in 80% and 20% slices). Then flew off the handle with some notions of divisiveness and whatnot...

Do you see why I asked if you were properly medicated?

[mashman]

Take a look in the mirror mate, somehow you read my post pointing out the makeup of population was a cause of overused resources, and decided that I was full of shit and actually the cause was the makeup of the population (given in 80% and 20% slices). Then flew off the handle with some notions of divisiveness and whatnot...

Do you see why I asked if you were properly medicated?

I understood why you asked if I was properly medicated. Did you understand why I asked if you are as retarded in real life? What is affecting us cares not who and where resources are consumed. It tends to care more where those resources are produced though. The who isn't anywhere near as relevant as the what and how and why. Usually in that order. Smoke and mirrors. You're been looking through smoke, and yes, I have had a damned good look in the mirror and came to the conclusion that I'd be happy to live in a Resource Based Economy (Fresco's or there abouts). Look in the mirror :killingme

The divisiveness was just a throwaway jibe. You went for it. Not surprising really. You seem quite Princessy.

[Graystone]

I understood why you asked if I was properly medicated.

Perhaps sort that shit out then, cos until you do, there is no point wasting my time with someone so clearly as unbalanced as yourself.

[mashman]

Perhaps sort that shit out then, cos until you do, there is no point wasting my time with someone so clearly as unbalanced as yourself.

Projection noted.

[Akzle]

Perhaps sort that shit out then, cos until you do, there is no point wasting my time with someone so clearly as unbalanced as yourself.

i find myself nodding to a number of your posts.






...and also mashy's.

what additional drugs do you recommend? :bleh:


lets see if this parses: $[date]

[mashman]

i find myself nodding to a number of your posts.






...and also mashy's.

what additional drugs do you recommend? :bleh:


lets see if this parses: $[date]

I'm game if he is. Let's go for some hard core LSD. That should sort the wheat from the chaff :shifty:

Can't abuse you through rep system. What happened?

[Akzle]

I'm game if he is. Let's go for some hard core LSD. That should sort the wheat from the chaff :shifty:

Can't abuse you through rep system. What happened?

there's a stalker-rittard with a severe case of sand-in-the-vagina in the south island. the kind of "man" that would rep someone every day for three months.
apparently happy to give it, but can't take it.

[mashman]

there's a stalker-rittard with a severe case of sand-in-the-vagina in the south island. the kind of "man" that would rep someone every day for three months.
apparently happy to give it, but can't take it.

You must have been better at it that "him".

[mashman]

Can Governments Dictate to the Free Markets? (https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/pension-crisis/can-governments-dictate-to-the-free-markets/)

[Ocean1]

Can Governments Dictate to the Free Markets? (https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/pension-crisis/can-governments-dictate-to-the-free-markets/)

Possibly the most coherent reference you've posted.

[mashman]

Possibly the most coherent reference you've posted.

Then I doubt you understood it.

[Akzle]

da-dee-da-dit-da.... jewishism

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/03/opinion/when-a-school-board-victimizes-kids.html?_r=0

[oldrider]

Scott Bennett's Stunning SHELL GAME Report https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F59KWYUjqkk&t=209s :shifty: WOW? :eek5:

[Viking01]

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/04/24/in-south-pacific-anzus-squawk-chinese-coming.html

[oldrider]

Happy Birthday Karl?: Top 10 Goals Of Marx' Manifesto Accomplished In America https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-05/happy-birthday-karl-top-10-goals-marx-manifesto-accomplished-amerika - :weird:

Plenty of stupid ideas kill people. But one man’s stupid ideas have killed over a hundred million people. :wait: :thud:

[Woodman]

Happy Birthday Karl?: Top 10 Goals Of Marx' Manifesto Accomplished In America https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-05/happy-birthday-karl-top-10-goals-marx-manifesto-accomplished-amerika - :weird:

Plenty of stupid ideas kill people. But one man’s stupid ideas have killed over a hundred million people. :wait: :thud:

Wonder how many people capitalism has killed?

[oldrider]

Wonder how many people capitalism has killed?

Good question but is today communist founders birthday - that is catalyst for post above. (200yrs)

[Ocean1]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/103632305/joel-maxwell-youre-a-loser-don-brash-but-i-love-you-anyway

[sidecar bob]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/103632305/joel-maxwell-youre-a-loser-don-brash-but-i-love-you-anyway

Shall I do a brief summary of Maori in the same vein & see if I don't end up on the 6pm news, branded as the country's worst racist.
See that's the problem with pakeha, they just shrug it off & get on with working to pay tax to prop up losers.
Instead of being the perpetrator of hate speech, that person should have written a thank you letter to "pakeha" for the continued existence, health & prosperity of the Maori species.

[Ocean1]

See that's the problem with pakeha, they just <strike>shrug it off & get on with working to pay tax to prop up losers.</strike> give and steal, give and steal. Broken gifts chained to ever more outrageous thefts. They give hamburgers and steal forests. They give God and steal land. They give Facebook and steal facts. They give antibiotics, medicine, long life – steal ice caps, drown the world.

You’re one of dem ideologically right thieving Pakehas, incha?

I particularly liked this bit:


I know I joked about deadbeat dads, but the love of our parents is the first irreplaceable gift of emotional life. It sparks love of ourselves, and love for our own children.

It almost made me go look for an ironing picture.

[Viking01]

This can't be right - I'm sure they said it was the Russians..... ever since Trump was elected (at least).

https://russia-insider.com/en/list-us-pro-israel-pressure-groups-extraordinary-israel-lobby-list/ri23384

[oldrider]

This can't be right - I'm sure they said it was the Russians..... ever since Trump was elected (at least).

https://russia-insider.com/en/list-us-pro-israel-pressure-groups-extraordinary-israel-lobby-list/ri23384

Most probable thing is that they are all working together to create a safe zone around Israel using Gaza as the prime model - they are all looking just the same - smashed! :shifty:

[Viking01]

http://lawinfo.ru/assets/files/Sravnitelnaya_politika/Sravnitelnaya_politika_4/Sravnitelnaya_politika_4_16-3.pdf

Might be a little bit on the 'dry' side, but interesting to see them trying to use
Chaos Theory to model the various interventions around the world (past and
current), in order to be able to react to them better in the future.

[oldrider]

http://lawinfo.ru/assets/files/Sravnitelnaya_politika/Sravnitelnaya_politika_4/Sravnitelnaya_politika_4_16-3.pdf

Might be a little bit on the 'dry' side, but interesting to see them trying to use
Chaos Theory to model the various interventions around the world (past and
current), in order to be able to react to them better in the future.

Israel and the East or Israel and the West - National communism or global communism - orchestrated divide and conquer? - Works every time! :rolleyes:

Whatever eventuates the NWO phoenix will arise from the ashes by the will of the people for the people by the people - the granddaddy Hobson's choice of all time?

Watch the stupid world, will they really believe that it was "their own choice"? :yes:

[Viking01]

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1805/S00056/gordon-campbell-on-nine-trump-lies-about-the-iran-deal.htm

[Voltaire]

Trumps favourite song from 1979


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBGPw_LBiRA

Probably get a re release soon Vince probably needs the $$

[oldrider]

This Iran? - https://twitter.com/MeettheNews/status/994130008783441921/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F

[oldrider]

American action man POTUS? https://twitter.com/jamesperloff/status/997234142298460160/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F Impressing his boss? :hug:

[oldrider]

Israel was permitted to join United Nations on three conditions:- https://twitter.com/HenryMakow/status/997904956484128771/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F Have they done that yet? :no: - :wait: True fact? - Check it out? :rolleyes:

[Ocean1]

This lot are proving an environmental disaster.

First killing off plans for one of the biggest marine reserves on the planet: https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/98122008/kermadec-ocean-sanctuary-put-on-ice-by-nz-first-catching-greens-unaware

And then pulling the rug from under the means to regulate fishing anywhere else: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/104083793/bottom-trawling-for--orange-roughy-has-scientists-worried

Now, if the greens were actually an environmentally driven entity rather than some marxist flavoured farce they'd be doing something about that...

[Katman]

Now, if the greens were actually an environmentally driven entity rather than some marxist flavoured farce they'd be doing something about that...

And if they were doing something about it you'd still moan.

[Ocean1]

And if they were doing something about it you'd still moan.

Probably. I mean, given that their history is one of a far left political entity rather than the environmental hand wringers they profess to be it's difficult to see how they're likely to do anything anyone but an ardent socialist is likely to support.

Fuck the environment, the iwi want their's.

[Banditbandit]

Probably. I mean, given that their history is one of a far left political entity rather than the environmental hand wringers they profess to be it's difficult to see how they're likely to do anything anyone but an ardent socialist is likely to support.

Fuck the environment, the iwi want their's.

The Greens do not present themselves as environmental hand wringers ... Sure, a focus on the environment is a large part, but not the only part, of Green politics ...

You set up a false straw-man - then shoot it down - but of course, you miss, because you are only shooting a straw-man.

[Ocean1]

The Greens do not present themselves as environmental hand wringers ... Sure, a focus on the environment is a large part, but not the only part, of Green politics ...

You set up a false straw-man - then shoot it down - but of course, you miss, because you are only shooting a straw-man.

Then they need to stop pretending they can have their cake and eat it too.

There's nothing straw man about the observation that the greens are further left than any other NZ political entity, or that effective environmental policy and a tenancy towards intrusive social engineering are often mutually exclusive. They need to either change their policies to match their sales pitch or admit that their environmental policy takes a back seat to their socialist agenda and ditch the "green" marketing label.

[TheDemonLord]

In other news, I'm really tempted to get this shirt:

Hehehe (https://www.amazon.com/Register-Communists-Not-Firearms-T-Shirt/dp/B07CFXVQ61)

[mashman]

Was that the business lobby blaming the greens for BAU? :killingme. Priceless. Let's have a look at what the Greens, and by default us, are actually up against in terms of the mess that left and right and the business lobby are ignoring coz free market. (http://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2018/05/11/not-so-renewables/)

[Ocean1]

Was that the business lobby blaming the greens for BAU? :killingme. Priceless. Let's have a look at what the Greens, and by default us, are actually up against in terms of the mess that left and right and the business lobby are ignoring coz free market. (http://consciousnessofsheep.co.uk/2018/05/11/not-so-renewables/)

"Indeed, the term “renewable” is among the greatest PR confidence tricks ever to be played upon an unsuspecting public, since solar panels and wind (and tidal and wave) turbines are very much a product of and dependent upon the fossil carbon economy."

Aye, 'cause you can definitely make wind turbines from fresh air and solar panels from raw sunshine. :yes:

[mashman]

"Indeed, the term “renewable” is among the greatest PR confidence tricks ever to be played upon an unsuspecting public, since solar panels and wind (and tidal and wave) turbines are very much a product of and dependent upon the fossil carbon economy."

Aye, 'cause you can definitely make wind turbines from fresh air and solar panels from raw sunshine. :yes:

Yeah, big ask innit... and as a Green govt haven't had the same leeway as the other mob yet, and given that we're fucked given our current overshoot data (among other things) under the left right BAU ideology, maybe the greens are on to something re: the BAU that's actually doing the damage, and not the rhetoric that denies the greens a crack. But sure, go ahead and blame a party that has never been in the driving seat of power for the business environment that is actually destroying the planet. Oh, and just in case anyone fancies getting their hopes up and starts with ye olde "oh the planet will be fine, we'll be fucked". Consider that there'll be no humans around to maintain our nuclear power plants or nuclear weapons arsenal etc... The plant doesn't support life very well under those conditions it seems.

[Viking01]

I have found that F. William Engdahl has been an interesting social and political
commentator for at least the last 10 years:

http://www.williamengdahl.com/index.php

If you are looking for a book on major social and political events since the mid 1980's,
can I suggest his latest book "Manifest Destiny: Democracy as Cognitive Dissonance"
(despite its unusual title) as a good read.

While I had read about many of the events he addresses, he provides a good level
of detail. Only 220 pages, and in very readable format.

[Graystone]

In other news, I'm really tempted to get this shirt:

Hehehe (https://www.amazon.com/Register-Communists-Not-Firearms-T-Shirt/dp/B07CFXVQ61)

Reminds me of some of those nerd-shirt typey things...

"What's wrong with communism?

{
communist foo = new communist();
}"

[Viking01]

While I'm not a farmer or involved in the dairy industry, it would appear interesting
times ahead for the dairy industry and for NZ

http://werewolf.co.nz/2018/05/gordon-campbell-on-the-m-bovis-outbreak/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/104237057/Mycoplasma-bovis-Why-it-matters-for-all-of-us-not-just-farmers

I have been advised that M Bovis affected milk is not permitted to be used in making
milk powder destined for infant formula in certain overseas markets (like China).

http://www.atimes.com/article/china-seeks-quality-improvement-in-dairy-industry/

[oldrider]

Israel - capital of the world?

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZHZPLvbhLh8" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

How, what, where, why and who? - thinking about the Situation in Syria? - As they say - follow the money? :corn: So who has the most to win or lose? :wait:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FhTMy9ma2mQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Berries]

This one is for oldrider. I'm sure the jews are behind it.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/CziHrYYSyPc" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

This one is about how oldriders uncle tried to enslave an african nation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTQbiNvZqaY

[oldrider]

Take a look at this video clip and give the contents some thought and ask the question - is Iran the real menace that it is made out to be? - Nothing else - just give it some real consideration.

Someone is telling porkies - surely not Israel or the USA and the Western alliance? - they are the "good guys" - aren't they? :shit: - Israel's Netanyahu keeps telling the world that Iran tells lies lies all the time! :yes:

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xH9PVkdwjrg" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkbE6x47RKw

[oldrider]

Masks can be warn when Evil wants to disguise itself as Good - can we spot the difference? https://tobefree.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/benjamin-netanyahu-mileikowsky-isnt-a-semitic-jewish-descendant-of-abraham/ :confused: - :shifty: (Bibi accuses Iran of lying - takes one to know one?) :rolleyes:

[oldrider]

Bump :shifty:

Masks can be warn when Evil wants to disguise itself as Good - can we spot the difference? https://tobefree.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/benjamin-netanyahu-mileikowsky-isnt-a-semitic-jewish-descendant-of-abraham/ :confused: - :shifty: (Bibi accuses Iran of lying - takes one to know one?) :rolleyes:

[oldrider]

Laurent Guyenot's book:- "From Yahwey to Zion" reviewed with Kevin Barret? Outside the square? :scratch: Well for some at least! :corn:

<iframe width="504" height="378" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jVV_LfdUcpk" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

Bump - :wait:

Masks can be warn when Evil wants to disguise itself as Good - can we spot the difference? https://tobefree.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/benjamin-netanyahu-mileikowsky-isnt-a-semitic-jewish-descendant-of-abraham/ :confused: - :shifty: (Bibi accuses Iran of lying - takes one to know one?) :rolleyes:

[oldrider]

Bump - :wait:

Masks can be warn when Evil wants to disguise itself as Good - can we spot the difference? https://tobefree.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/benjamin-netanyahu-mileikowsky-isnt-a-semitic-jewish-descendant-of-abraham/ :confused: - :shifty: (Bibi accuses Iran of lying - takes one to know one?) :rolleyes:

[oldrider]

Bump - :msn-wink:

Masks can be warn when Evil wants to disguise itself as Good - can we spot the difference? https://tobefree.wordpress.com/2017/07/18/benjamin-netanyahu-mileikowsky-isnt-a-semitic-jewish-descendant-of-abraham/ :confused: - :shifty: (Bibi accuses Iran of lying - takes one to know one?) :rolleyes:

[husaberg]

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/images/2016/04/April-Fools2.jpg (https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinknews.co.uk%2F2016%2F04%2 F04%2Foops-daily-mail-and-russia-today-fell-for-our-april-fools-joke-about-canadas-pm-stripping-naked%2F&psig=AOvVaw3QPy9ZnpFf8CQfOfpqEGKH&ust=1528271196819223)I
Idiots
https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2016/04/01/canadian-pm-justin-trudeau-to-pose-nude-for-gay-mags-body-image-campaign/

[oldrider]

Winston Churchill’s Darkest Hour? - Can you spot the similarity to Donald Trump? - Watch this space as the "current" man of the moments instructions unwind among the unwary? :rolleyes:

<iframe width="696" height="392" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tn0tSJDlCyE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w2dMekIJLw

[Viking01]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/06/02/newt-gingrich-chinas-embrace-marxism-is-bad-news-for-its-people.html

[Viking01]

https://southfront.org/nato-sabre-strike-exercise-scaring-russia-with-multiple-war-games-of-unparalleled-scale/

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/428911-nato-virus-europe-russia/

[Viking01]

https://www.fort-russ.com/2015/12/hounding-bear-hybrid-methodology-of/

[oldrider]

:rolleyes: https://twitter.com/FrommPaul/status/1009254587943960577/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F A joke? - maybe/maybe not? :corn: (apparently Churchill owed very big debt and was a compulsive drunk!)

[Voltaire]

(apparently Churchill owed very big debt and was a compulsive drunk!)

That was made pretty clear in the Darkest Hour, but really who would not like champagne for lunch.

The other guy was a vegetarian, liked dogs, dabbled in art, didn't drive.... and the other guy trained to be a priest.

Donald I gather from reading Fake News likes Macdonalds and does not drink.

He appears to like cars.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-trumps-car-collection-2017-1/?r=AU&IR=T/#24-karat-gold-chopper-6

and he owns a motorcycle ( of sorts).:msn-wink:
http://hauteliving.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/DonaldTrumpBike1.jpg


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/10974124/All-the-best-world-leaders-have-loved-a-drink.html

[mashman]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay business...

Many say we can have 100% renewable energy by 2050. This is factually incorrect.

We can have 100% renewable electricity production by 2050.

But electricity production is only 18% of total world energy demand.

82% of total world energy demand is NOT electricity production.

The other 82% of the world’s energy is used to extract minerals to make roads, cement, bricks, glass, steel and grow food so we can eat and sleep. Solar panels and wind turbines will not be making cement or steel anytime soon. Why? Do you really want to know? Here we go. (https://lokisrevengeblog.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/no-soil-water-before-100-renwable-energy/)

[Voltaire]

Business is really talking up " the forth industrial revolution" and how so much change is imminent.

If the power went off for over 3 days the internet would pretty much stop as the supporting infrastructure is diesel and lead/acid.

It was said that the NZ vehicle fleet average is 14 years old, so the transition to electric is going to take some time, its not like the difference between a horse and a Model T.

[oldrider]

Business is really talking up " the forth industrial revolution" and how so much change is imminent.

If the power went off for over 3 days the internet would pretty much stop as the supporting infrastructure is diesel and lead/acid.

It was said that the NZ vehicle fleet average is 14 years old, so the transition to electric is going to take some time, its not like the difference between a horse and a Model T.

Where do many supporters of electric cars think they get their clean green power from? - :scratch:

[Voltaire]

Where do many supporters of electric cars think they get their clean green power from? - :scratch:

Probably the same ones who think all those free internet sites and apps are not storing and selling you data.

[husaberg]

Where do many supporters of electric cars think they get their clean green power from? - :scratch:
Must be because Tesla is a jewish name aye.
Are we able to pin the reliance of fossil fuels on Israel.

[oldrider]

Must be because Tesla is a jewish name aye.
Are we able to pin the reliance of fossil fuels on Israel.

Really! :rolleyes: - You should try to kerb your enthusiasm for casting Anti-Semitic responses on the forums. :spanking:

[husaberg]

Really! :rolleyes: - You should try to kerb your enthusiasm for casting Anti-Semitic responses on the forums. :spanking:
Come on Oldie you must have the real story on how its all the jews fault after all.
Or have you finally wised up a bit and realised you were being an old bigoted fool.

[oldrider]

Example of history written by the "victors"? :- https://twitter.com/jamesperloff/status/1010172589686362113/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F . :corn: - War = abomination to all but world bankers!

[Viking01]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/25/harley-davidson-production-us-eu-tariffs-motorcycles

[Voltaire]

Will HD now mean Hindu Davidson?:msn-wink:

[Voltaire]

Example of history written by the "victors"? :- https://twitter.com/jamesperloff/status/1010172589686362113/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F . :corn: - War = abomination to all but world bankers!

Finland?
I thought they just wanted not to be part of the Soviet Union. They did give the Russians a lesson in winter warfare....for a while.
There is a good video of Hitler in a railway wagon talking to their leader and I think its the only recording of him not in full rant mode.

[oldrider]

A real fun kinda guy? https://twitter.com/LBF777/status/1011363491771543553/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F - Maybe we could get him to speak to a KB gathering? :whistle: (Scroll to George Bush)

[Laava]

Will HD now mean Hindu Davidson?:msn-wink:

Rock your head gently from side to side and say 'harley and davidson'

[oldrider]

Who exactly is pulling what strings and why? :- http://persiannationalist.blogspot.com/2018/06/lot-of-players-in-alternative-media.html?m=1 :confused: . Never saw "that" coming? :no:

Age old magicians trick - always offer an alternative for the observers to pay attention to while you do something else unseen and entirely with a different outcome! :rolleyes:

[Viking01]

Possible Trade Wars

It's been interesting watching Trump's recent posturing regarding trade agreements, his claims how disadvantaged
the US is, and yet how easy a trade war will be for the US to win.

Given that some of the threatened trade tariffs may soon take effect (earliest mid June), the next three weeks could
be interesting times. To see who-concedes-what in the interim, and which trade tariffs do get activated.


1. Collecting A Few Threads Together

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/trump-gamble-china-gain-180604085551622.html


2. US and China

The US Comes Calling for an Update

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2152792/china-wont-concede-inch-xi-jinping-tells-us-defence

Chinese Assessment of the US

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1108667.shtml

Steps towards Mitigating the Effect of US Tariffs

http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0627/c90000-9474973.html

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2151706/china-may-find-underhanded-and-damaging-ways-hit-back


3. Possible Shift to a War on Investments

The US telegraphs an escalation, but exactly who will be most affected ?

http://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/united-states/article/2152696/first-trade-now-investments-us-escalates-its


4. What are Other Countries Doing ?

Who is Rolling Over ?

https://www.rt.com/business/430415-world-turn-against-us-tariffs/



Thought I'd add my $ 0.02 worth as well.

I've been watching the trade related goings-on the past three months, given the separate discussions between
the US and each of (i) Asia (ii) Canada & Mexico - NAFTA (iii) Europe (iv) China. [I have ignored Russia simply
because economic sanctions are already in place, and have been for some while. ]

Each seems to have had its own separate set of objectives (as viewed from a US perspective) e.g.

-To extract a few more concessions from some of its traditional trade partners (e.g. Asia; Canada and Mexico)
-To dissuade some of its trade partners from making certain political decisions (e.g. Europe)
-To attempt to derail trade growth of its main economic competitor (i.e. China)

1. Asia and NAFTA

South Korea earlier negotiated a 'soft' agreement with the US, conceding a little ground on cars and trucks.
Japan has yet to reach a similar accommodation with the US. Seems good friend Abe has not been successful.

A few token adjustments to bilateral trade agreements (in US favour) will allow Trump to show he has been busy
(and has been making progress) prior to US midterm elections in November 2018.

My impression is NAFTA negotiations with Canada and Mexico will eventually track the same path as South Korea.

2. Europe

Europe in aggregate has a larger economy than the US, but it is tied to the US (and USD) for trade, and it faces
a number of internal challenges as well (which exposes Europe to the old "divide and rule" approach).

Western Europe is currently faced with decisions on (i) Nord 2 gas pipeline (ii) retention of economic sanctions
on Russia (iii) retention of NATO vs a new European military organisation (iv) the Euro and the weak economic
situation of some members (such as Italy / Spain / Portugal / Greece).

My impression is the Nord 2 pipeline and the removal of sanctions upon Russia will occur over the next 2-3 years,
despite being forcibly delayed. However, I can't see the US willingly conceding ground on NATO, due to loss of US
military decision-making power as well as loss of markets for sale of US weapons.

Given that Germany provides the economic engine for Europe (hence its pivotal role in those decisions), I can see
some US tariffs on Germany being enforced (e.g. cars) if the 'right' decisions were not forthcoming. Supported by
further issues with migrants, a possible need for financial bailout of certain Euro countries, or a political scandal,
whichever is the most expedient.

3. China

China is in a whole different category altogether, because of (i) size of its economy (ii) ease of market access
(iii) its political model and its increasing independence (iv) OBOR (v) Made in China 2025 (vi) increasing trade
volumes not denominated in USD.

During earlier US - China trade negotiations, there seem to have been multiple US entities vying with one another
(i.e. Trump wanting some relatively quick concessions he could sell to his domestic political base before November;
bankers and multinational corporations seeking trading and financial access to the Chinese market; US military
hardliners seeking to deny China access to US technology).

The US is definitely focused on gaining access into China markets by US multinational companies. Not just US auto,
energy and technology companies, but more particularly US banks and shadow banks (i.e. investment banks, hedge
funds and equity firms). Despite all the talk about 'goods trade deficits', past US trade deals have always been more
about ensuring that US ‘money capital' flows from the US into other economies.

It’s also worth noting at the same time that the US mainstream press almost never mentions:

- That much of the US goods (products) trade deficit with China is the result of US companies located within China
exporting semi- finished goods back to the US for final manufacture in the US,
- That the US runs a significant 'services' trade surplus with China, consisting mostly financial services,
- That just because a trade tariff 'may come into effect' on a certain date, it does not mean it will be 'activated'
on that date.

My impressions are:

- That a few 'cheap' concessions will be made by the Chinese for Trump's political purposes,
- That there is still much negotiation to occur between the US and China,
- That Chinese concessions made on financial services will very much depend upon corresponding
US concessions made on technology,
- That China has time on its side and is quite willing to play a 'long game'. Whereas the US is
impatient, and wishes to hobble China sooner rather than later (before Chinese strength grows
much further).

[F5 Dave]

Come on oldrider. Jesus is waiting for you. Not so long and he will take you to hell with him and fuck you to sleep screaming I'm a Jew you MotherFucker.
Cmon Satan. Have a go next.
We ran out of lube in the 70s.

[husaberg]

Come on oldrider. Jesus is waiting for you. Not so long and he will take you to hell with him and fuck you to sleep screaming I'm a Jew you MotherFucker.
Cmon Satan. Have a go next.
We ran out of lube in the 70s.


Not only Jesus, Mohammad waiting to reward him as well for his good work, he has promised the old buggar sex with a boat loads of virgins, thing is he never actually specified they would be female .....

[Voltaire]

The next GFC is coming.... probably by Christmas , former pagan holiday hijacked by the Roman/Christians.:shutup:

Would be nice to see the FANG's take a hit, tax dodging mofos.

[Viking01]

1. Soccer World Cup 2018

Seems that Russia has risen to the occasion well, and has so far delivered a very
successful Soccer World Cup. Even though my team (Denmark) lost in the second
round against Croatia yesterday in a penalty shoot-out (3-2). :cry:

https://www.rt.com/sport/431540-russia-gary-neville-world-cup/

Hopefully, the tournament will continue and conclude without any unfortunate
incidents (involving safety of players, tourists, Russian citizens etc).

Like other major sporting events, this is an opportunity for Russia to be able
to not only showcase itself, but also counter some of the negative western
press content of more recent months.

https://www.eurasiafuture.com/2018/07/02/the-unspoken-geopolitical-overtones-of-russias-world-cup-victory-over-spain/

http://thesaker.is/why-do-we-need-the-world-football-cup-by-ruslan-ostashko/

to be followed by:

2. Putin - Trump Summit Meeting

While bear baiting has been a popular activity of recent years:

https://www.fort-russ.com/2015/12/hounding-bear-hybrid-methodology-of/

Trump now wants to meet with Putin - with a formal summit scheduled for July 16
(the day immediately after the closing of the Soccer World Cup). Putin will likely
attend the closing ceremony and then catch a flight directly to Helsinki, Finland.


But why meet at all ? And why meet now ?

Is this an opportunity for Trump to further demonstrate peace making credentials
(after his North Korea foray), as well as help put an end to the ongoing Mueller
investigation ? In good time for US mid-term elections in November 2018.

Assuming that the 2018 Soccer World Cup has been successful for Russia, and
given (say) recent US statements:

- Companies participating in Nord2 gas pipeline may not be subject to US sanction
- Takfiris in southern Syria will potentially lose US support during a Syrian army
offensive near Daraa and Golan Heights

will Putin be in a "good mood", and be willing to make plenty of concessions ?

https://russia-insider.com/en/politics/host-countries-usually-lose-money-world-cup-russia-scores-250-return-russian-tv-news-video

What might be some topics of Summit discussion ?

- Syria ? Russian support to promote exit of Hezbollah and Iran ?
- Palestinians ? Russian support for US "Deal of the Century" ?
- Golan Heights ? Russian support for Israeli oil exploration ?
- Iran ? Russian support for sanctions on Iran ? Oil ?
- Europe ? Countries seeking NATO membership ? The Black Sea ?
- Weapons Race ? Possible US willingness to sit around the table again ?

As well as the Russian position re :

- China (and/or North Korea) ?
- Turkey (and/or the Kurds) ?
- Saudi Arabia ?
- Ukraine ?
- Venezuela ?

Interesting to contemplate:
- Who might in a position to, and be willing to offer what ?
- Who would benefit ?
- Conditions and trade-offs ?

Meanwhile, Russian FM Sergei Lavrov continues to deal patiently with the Western press :

https://southfront.org/russian-foreign-ministers-interview-on-conflict-in-syria-and-upcoming-putin-trump-meeting/

[oldrider]

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/513506d24b1d0aac0b5280046c8f2de8bad82a78ca9edbd0a1 9611b4e3ef7ae6.jpg :corn:

[Voltaire]

I would have thought Russia would win giving they supposedly helped Mango Mullet win.:rolleyes:

[mashman]

Just watching Simon Bridges, yes National Party Leader, state live in Wanganui that he is pro-Israel, because they have a thousand year right to it. Shilly boy.

[mashman]

Espionage bill could make some protests criminal acts, GetUp says (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jun/26/espionage-bill-could-make-some-protests-criminal-acts-getup-says)

[Viking01]

On my own part, it has been interesting to recently read more about Chinese
and Indian history (last 200 years). Not only to aid general understanding,
but also to try and provide some background to recent political events.

My interests have been ones focusing on their politics / economics / military /
religion of both countries, but at the end of the day, people need to be able
to eat and drink.

As the two countries are home to a sizeable portion of the world's population
(37%), food production and distribution is important to their individual futures.

Given the proportion of the Indian population involved in small plot agriculture,
and bearing in mind factors such as climate change and introduction of GMO
seeds, then articles like the following:

https://dissidentvoice.org/2018/07/agrarian-crisis-and-climate-catastrophe-forged-in-india-made-in-washington/

prompt questions like:

- what does the future look like for the small farmer (and city dweller), and
- whose interests are currently being served ?

[oldrider]

On my own part, it has been interesting to recently read more about Chinese
and Indian history (last 200 years). Not only to aid general understanding,
but also to try and provide some background to recent political events.

My interests have been ones focusing on their politics / economics / military /
religion of both countries, but at the end of the day, people need to be able
to eat and drink.

As the two countries are home to a sizeable portion of the world's population
(37%), food production and distribution is important to their individual futures.

Given the proportion of the Indian population involved in small plot agriculture,
and bearing in mind factors such as climate change and introduction of GMO
seeds, then articles like the following:

https://dissidentvoice.org/2018/07/agrarian-crisis-and-climate-catastrophe-forged-in-india-made-in-washington/

prompt questions like:

- what does the future look like for the small farmer (and city dweller), and
- whose interests are currently being served ?

As always someone is thinking of the "other people" who populate the world and need "controlling"! - https://www.quora.com/Why-isnt-Indian-government-doing-anything-to-control-population-growth

[Viking01]

I've been reading the news over the last year regarding NZ - China trading
relationship, looking to see how trade has progressed following the 2008
NZ - China FTA.

Recall that Winston was busy up in China recently working to update the
NZ - China FTA (signed back in 2008).

So a number of recent articles have left me a little puzzled. Specifically ones
about the purchase of new aircraft for the NZ air force.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/China-sends-chills-through-South-Pacific-politics
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018652548/govt-s-defence-strategy-takes-solid-stance-on-china
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1807/S00089/nz-to-buy-four-p-8a-poseidon-maritime-patrol-aircraft.htm
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1807/S00054/defence-minister-urged-to-not-arm-new-aircraft.htm
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-Relations/New-Zealand-ends-China-honeymoon-over-security-concerns
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11998271
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1807/S00058/campbell-five-reasons-not-to-spend-billions-replacing-p-3s.htm

I see that in the last few days, Winston and Mark have gotten out the order
book and ordered some new aircraft (i.e. 4 Boeing Poseidon P8A's to replace
the 6 ageing Orions). Given age of the Orions - and allowing for obsolescence,
replacement is to be expected.

They will apparently be just the base model, and estimated to cost NZ$2.35 bn.
While they might have racks for bombs and missiles, no weapons have apparently
been included in the initial order.

Ok so far.

================================================== ==========================

But then picking out a few comments from the various articles listed above:

“The purchase ensures the Defence Force can continue to deliver the country’s
maritime surveillance, resource protection, humanitarian and disaster response
around New Zealand and across the South Pacific,” says Ron Mark.

And:

"One of the key reasons Mark gave for the purchase was the aircraft's ability
to operate in joint missions with allies such as Australia, the US and Canada."

And:

"Mr Peters told Morning Report that the military capacities of these planes, such
as anti-submarine capabilities, were needed."

"We live in a much more highly stressed area of geopolitical competition because
we have left, some of us, a vacuum there which others would fill."

He would not "point fingers" on where threats were from, as "it doesn't help our
relations internationally, and it doesn't help our chance of being a very significant
influential force in the Pacific."


Then the Government released its updated NZ Defence Strategy paper last Friday.

While the Defence Strategy document highlights the importance of adoption of a
"rules based" approach internationally, it was not quite so clear who actually is
to make the rules.

And the only countries explicitly mentioned as "possible threats" in the Defence
Strategy document are China and Russia (our "new friends").

Then there was an article by a NZ political scientist, highlighting Chinese interest
(with likely intent !!) down in Antarctica. Apparently, they want to rape some of
the resources and steal some penguins (or was it the other way around ? )

Finally, last but not least, there was an article that said the whole Red threat is
not real after all, and that it's just more "fake news". Real "fake news" this time.


All very confusing, and not surprisingly I had a few questions. Perhaps some-one
could clarify for me ?

So, at the risk of being accused of being a "Chinese apologist" (or a "Russian
apologist", or even worse, both), here goes :

1. Intended Usage

Are we buying and fitting out these aircraft so we can meet our NZ maritime
surveillance plus humanitarian and disaster response needs
- or -
so we can hunt submarines and drop bombs with the "big boys on the block"
(our "traditional friends" ) ?

2. Submarines

If we should find a submarine, how do we identify what country it belongs to ?

If it is a Chinese or a Russian submarine (hopefully it is painted red for easy
identification), then what do we do ? What if it's a yellow submarine ?

3. Munitions

If we are to drop bombs on them, do we have to buy them from the local cartel
(at their usually inflated prices) ?

Are their bombs really "smarter", or is that just marketing hype ?

Can we buy Chinese or Russian bombs instead, or is that against "the rules" ?

If we do not spend enough on munitions, will we then get a visit from the agent
insisting that we buy more ? [ Say up to 2% of GDP, as for NATO ]

Is it possible to buy a few less bombs, and say more nurses (as I much prefer
nurses).

4. Possible Mitigation

To protect against the risk of Chinese "political chills", should I just wear
an extra layer of clothes ?

With all the recent talk about suspicious poisonings, should I forego Chinese
takeaways ?


I look forward to your helpful replies. Thanks in advance.

[husaberg]

I see that in the last few days, Winston and Mark have gotten out the order
book and ordered some new aircraft (i.e. 4 Boeing Poseidon P8A's to replace
the 6 ageing Orions). Given age of the Orions - and allowing for obsolescence,
replacement is to be expected.

They will apparently be just the base model, and estimated to cost NZ$2.35 bn.
While they might have racks for bombs and missiles, no weapons have apparently
been included in the initial order.

Ok so far.

================================================== ==========================

But then picking out a few comments from the various articles listed above:

“The purchase ensures the Defence Force can continue to deliver the country’s
maritime surveillance, resource protection, humanitarian and disaster response
around New Zealand and across the South Pacific,” says Ron Mark.

And:

"One of the key reasons Mark gave for the purchase was the aircraft's ability
to operate in joint missions with allies such as Australia, the US and Canada."

And:

"Mr Peters told Morning Report that the military capacities of these planes, such
as anti-submarine capabilities, were needed."

"We live in a much more highly stressed area of geopolitical competition because
we have left, some of us, a vacuum there which others would fill."

He would not "point fingers" on where threats were from, as "it doesn't help our
relations internationally, and it doesn't help our chance of being a very significant
influential force in the Pacific."

1. Intended Usage

Are we buying and fitting out these aircraft so we can meet our NZ maritime
surveillance plus humanitarian and disaster response needs
- or -
so we can hunt submarines and drop bombs with the "big boys on the block"
(our "traditional friends" ) ?

It a Shame the US went with the P8 leaving us little choice but to do the same
If the US had have gone with the other contender we would have had a updated familar platform ready for another 50 years rather than 20.
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/orion%2021.htm
The P8 is based on the 737
prior to the P8 there was a programe to do one from boing based on the newer 757 platform
that was sidelined on cost.
THe P3 has been in service for 50 years with the US as has the C130 and B52
the P3 are anti submarine capable they have bomb bays and NZ has even practiced bombing with them previously
Also depending on who you intend fighting against decide whose weapons you should use
for instance during the falklands conflict when it was clear they were going to be used against the British the french showed the poms how to electronically stop the Excoets from exploding on impact saving many lives.

[Viking01]

Well, the big day has arrived. Yes, it was a big day for the
French with the World Cup Soccer final, but I am referring to
the Trump - Putin summit.

1. Trump - Putin

https://sputniknews.com/europe/201807161066384255-trump-putin-helsinki-summit/

I see that the format for the meeting has changed slightly within
the last few days, in that:

- There will be no meeting beforehand between Pompeo and Lavrov
- The meeting between the two leaders will be just that (apart
from interpreters)

You could almost be excused for thinking that Trump did not want
his "own home team" interfering with the lead-up to and execution
of the leaders meeting. Not that that would happen ....

- This will be followed by a working lunch which may include
both foreign ministers
- There will then be a brief post meeting Q&A session

Apparently there were to be no meeting minutes issued, but a
brief joint communique of "points agreed" may be issued later.

2. NATO
Meanwhile, the "official minutes" from the recent NATO summit
meeting have just been released:

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_156624.htm

It's over 20 pages of A4 text, so it's a long read. And it's
full of "positive and aspirational" statements. The first 10
(of the 79) points were sufficient to get the general drift.
The short story is that the Russians were (or will be held)
responsible. That's all you really need to know.

3. Why Don't the Russians Trust NATO ?

Personally, I can't see why the Russians don't trust the West
when it talks about NATO and its intentions.

A Pocket Summary of NATO History

https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/12/25/nato-seeking-russias-destruction-since-1949/

Not Once Inch to the East ("how many ways or times do we
have to say it?")

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/19/how-us-swindled-russia-early-1990s.html

[Voltaire]

Its hot over there at the moment, Putin and Trump should chill out with a nice ice cream.:innocent:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/05/26/14/2915619F00000578-0-image-a-60_1432648316213.jpg

and have a read of a new book about great leaders and ponder why they are not on the cover....

https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2018/03/9788131937150-1.jpg

[Viking01]

Well, Trump has now shaken hands with "the devil", and the sky has not fallen in
(well, not here in Wellington at least)

https://sputniknews.com/world/201807161066407227-trump-putin-meeting-highlights/

No doubt there will be more "information" to follow.

Guess that we just have to wait and watch the actions of both parties.

Meanwhile:

Certain members of the US "home team" have been busy informing us what he
must and mustn't do:

https://sputniknews.com/world/201807161066407660-cia-brennan-treason-putin/
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201807161066395610-us-troops-syria-iranian-menace/

And a coincidence: 100 years ago today

https://russia-insider.com/en/history/100-years-ago-jewish-communists-slaughtered-tsar-his-wife-children-relatives-and-servants

A few little tidbits of history included in the article, about US banks and
Czarist gold. Some things never change, so it seems.

[Viking01]

Must have missed reading about this in the local news recently.
Understandable after all the political excitement overseas this
last week.

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/433612-australia-new-zealand-china-pacific/

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/australianz/australia-nz-to-sign-security-pact-with-south-pacific-nations

It seems that we will soon have to worry about Russians and Indians
(as well as the Chinese) appearing in our backyard.

So, if you happen to see increased presence of Chinese takeaways,
Indian dairies or Russian liquor outlets in your area, then please do
mention it to the appropriate authorities ... we can't be too careful.

I know that Obama visited earlier this year ( "for a round of golf" ),
but I'm sure that Donald will soon pay a visit our way to check out
that the local NZ missile launch sites are still fully operational.

What ? You didn't think those golf course bunkers were actually ...
you just keep reading your motorcycle magazines.

Wonder if we are going to order some drones as well as some maritime
surveillance aircraft ? Winston didn't say anything in his last speech.

Or will NZ simply spend any aid monies allocated to Pacific nations
on the provision of actual aid itself ?

[Viking01]

New trade tariffs have now been in force for about a couple of weeks.

Governing bodies "on both sides of the fence" will be reluctant to discuss
the true impact of trade tariffs on their economy. It's certainly the case in
China, where discussion of the trade war appears to be being suppressed to
some degree.

Because of timing, the latest US quarterly GDP figures just published show
very little evidence of the effect of tariffs on US sales.

It's unlikely the first tranche of tariffs (say $50 bln) is going to cause any
significant damage to any of the major economies (US, China or Europe).
But there is another (much larger) tranche of tariffs "parked up" by the US
awaiting triggering.


1. US - China

It's still early days yet, but some early results are able to be seen. While the
US chose to target electronics, China chose to target certain food products
(i.e. those produced within key US states that were strong Trump supporters).

Just to pick on a few products e.g. Meat; soybeans (used for cattle food and
cooking oil); motor vehicles; chips for mobile phones.

a. Meat has started to pile up within US export warehouses:

https://www.rt.com/business/434032-us-meat-piles-slow-exports/

b. US soybeans sales have fallen significantly, and the US government has already
resorted to granting $12 bln of financial assistance to soybean farmers:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-farmers/trump-to-give-farmers-billions-in-aid-politico-idUSKBN1KE1YE

Chinese soybean importers are starting to suffer as well, with one large Chinese
importer (of US soybeans) already indicating possible financial failure. How China
chooses to react will be interesting:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2018/07/25/Chinese-importer-of-soybeans-insolvent-following-trade-tariff/1611532573566/?utm_source=fp&#038;utm_campaign=ts_tn_int&#038;utm_medium=4

Other suppliers (like Brazil) will "make hay" in the interim. It would be interesting
to know whether soybean supply and pricing was discussed between China and
Brazil during the BRICS summit in South Africa just concluded:

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2156195/soybean-giant-brazil-swoops-us-crop-china-trade-war

c. Several US car manufacturers have just declared lower earnings, mentioning
some impact by US tariffs on steel and aluminium:

https://wolfstreet.com/2018/07/26/gm-fiat-chrysler-ford-signal-problems-slash-guidance/

d. Qualcomm, a major US chip maker used by Chinese phone manufacturers,
is already starting to feel the pain. Interesting not only because of reduced
chip sales, but mention of the Chinese using alternative methods to retaliate
(i.e. rejection of pending US corporate take-overs by Chinese regulators).

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-Deals/Qualcomm-not-the-last-victim-as-US-China-trade-war-intensifies

One regular long-term Asian commentator (David Goldman, alias "Spengler")
offered some advice to the US Trade representative Kudlow:

http://www.atimes.com/article/open-letter-to-larry-kudlow-you-need-a-different-china-strategy/

Two key points in his article were worth noting:

"The first is that you do not negotiate with China by trying to make its
leader lose face."

-and -

"China’s export dependence on the United States is shrinking, not growing.
Most of China’s exports are directed towards Asia. Moreover, Asia provided
the biggest growth margin in China’s exports."

Guess we will have to wait and see just how effective the US tariffs are
upon China, and "who blinks first".

2. US - Europe

Trump and Juncker met within the last few days to discuss EU - US trade,
and on the EU part specifically to secure a deferral of US tariffs on European
motor vehicles. However, general consensus appears it was mostly "all show"
on the part of both parties:

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201807271066723512-US-EU-Trade-Pledge-Mostly-Show/

While Juncker pledged that the EU would "seek to increase" purchases of soybeans
and natural gas from the US, it's worth noting that (i) soybeans are only in small
demand within Europe, and (ii) shale natural gas sourced from the US is still not
competively priced vs Russian gas (plus the additional EU cost for re-gasification
equipment on top).

Another important point is that European agricultural sectors are still very heavily
protected. Not only would any proposed reduction in EU tariffs incur some strong
push-back from EU agricultural concerns, but such changes would require approval
by multiple EU member states (e.g. the French):

https://www.dw.com/en/eus-juncker-says-trade-talks-with-trump-almost-collapsed-over-us-agriculture-demands/a-44859952

However, it is the link below that was the most interesting.

https://www.eurasiafuture.com/2018/07/27/first-europe-humiliated-by-trump-now-both-trump-and-the-eu-are-rebuffed-by-the-us-congress/

Not only has the EU effectively backed itself into a corner (apparently having
rejected a Chinese invitation to co-operate and to jointly resist US tariffs),
but soon after the US - EU trade summit, both the US House of Reps and the
Senate then defied Trump by passing the "Miscellaneous Tariffs Bill".

The importance of this Bill is that it would allow the US to now reduce or to
eliminate US tariffs on various products (still to be specified). This would help
protect certain US manufacturers operating in China, as well as certain local
US importers (parties that would otherwise be adversely affected by Trump's
tariffs).

Does this mean that US representatives (i) don't believe Trump that "tariffs
will have only minimal impact upon US companies" (ii) have been instructed to
resist Trump (iii) believe that their own political interests could be severely
harmed in the upcoming November mid-terms ? You decide.

The Bill still requires Presidential signature ( but will Trump dare veto it ? )

But forgetting US interests for a minute, you do have to wonder exactly "who
is in control" within the European economic bloc (and "just whose economic
interests are being threatened") when the EU agrees to such arrangements
with the US and allows itself to be "boxed in".

Perhaps their main politicians have already been (found to be) compromised to
an extent they dare not fight back in the interests of their own populations.
Who knows ?

Interesting times ahead.

[Viking01]

It's nice to know that when you're down and need a "friend" .....

https://www.rt.com/usa/434646-john-oliver-facebook-parody/

[oldrider]

Russian Electronic Warfare Against US Troops In Syria Enters Dangerous Phase: Report https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-30/russian-electronic-warfare-us-troops-syria-has-entered-new-phase-report It really is a stupid fucking world! :facepalm:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UZK2FZGKAd0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Banditbandit]

Just watching Simon Bridges, yes National Party Leader, state live in Wanganui that he is pro-Israel, because they have a thousand year right to it. Shilly boy.

So - is this dingbat going to accept a 1000-year-old Maori claim to Aotearoa ???

[Viking01]

A. Political Wars

Mike Pompeo seems to have had a very busy schedule recently.

First, there were Senate hearings following the Trump - Putin
summit in Helsinki, where Pompeo re-assured senators that US
policy had not changed. Admittedly, HuffPost may not the best
website to get information:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-pompeo-trump-putin_us_5b58d3ffe4b0fd5c73cb4390

Then there was Pakistan. I hadn't realised that he was such a
cricket fanatic, as he was very keen to meet with the newly
elected Imran Khan. As it was, he bowled a "quick" down the
pitch at Khan before leaving:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-Relations/Pompeo-warns-against-IMF-bailout-for-Pakistan-that-aids-China

Then next to qualify some remarks made by Trump earlier about
his "willingness to meet with the Iranian leadership." I do sense
a degree of reluctance on the Iranian's part to meet:

https://www.rt.com/news/434771-iran-guards-no-trump-meeting/

Perhaps the implied threat to commence bombing of Iranian nuclear
sites this month didn't help the situation:

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/07/29/us-ready-strike-iran-august.html

Then a quick speech to the US Chamber of Commerce, before being
off to Singapore where he is to offer various enticements to various
Asian parties (wonder what's on offer?):

https://www.rt.com/newsline/434644-us-invest-indo-pacific/

and to keep the focus on NK disarmament (as opposed to what is
to happen on the other side of the fence, in line with the earlier
US-NK summit objective of wider "Korean de-nuclearisation").

http://www.ktuu.com/content/news/North-Korea-tops-Pompeo-agenda-at-Asia-security-meeting-489662441.html

It's a busy job this being an enforcer, er, Secretary of State.
Just as well Trump picked the "right man" this time, some-one
with all the right credentials.

It sometime seems like it's easier to wait for 2-3 days after
any major Trump event for the Pompeo interpretation.


B. Trade Wars

Meanwhile, other members of the US "team" have been busy advising
the WTO what a poor job it has been doing in meeting US expectations.

So much so that the US is now considering "throwing more toys out
of the cot" and withdrawing from the WTO (first NATO and now WTO,
if that can be believed):

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-wto/us-says-the-reckoning-over-china-trade-is-too-big-for-wto-idUSKBN1K11EQ

The US kindly tabled a paper outlining all China's transgressions,
to ensure everyone was reading from the appropriate hymn sheet.
The paper is on the WTO website if you're really that interested.

Needless to say, there are two sides to every story, and that the
Chinese were quick to reply e.g.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-wto/u-s-and-china-clash-at-wto-over-ideology-states-role-idUSKBN1KG22G
http://en.people.cn/n3/2018/0730/c90000-9486002.html

The US and China are obviously lining up for further trade related
discussions, but the hardest part might simply be agreeing of an
agenda (since that might signal areas of weakness):

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-markets/equities-inch-higher-on-u-s-china-talks-report-idUSKBN1KL030

I'd expect quite a few more turns of this "circus carousel" before
it comes to a halt. Not until very much closer to mid-terms. And
keeping the "big clown" until later.

[carbonhed]

The South African parliament in February voted in favour of a motion, brought by the radical Marxist Economic Freedom Fighters and supported by the ANC, to send the matter to parliament's Constitutional Review Committee.

"It has become patently clear that our people want the constitution to be more explicit about expropriation of land without compensation, as demonstrated in public hearings," Ramaphosa said in a video message addressing "fellow South Africans, comrades, friends".

This is going to end in O for Awesome.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12099235

[Ocean1]

The South African parliament in February voted in favour of a motion, brought by the radical Marxist Economic Freedom Fighters and supported by the ANC, to send the matter to parliament's Constitutional Review Committee.

"It has become patently clear that our people want the constitution to be more explicit about expropriation of land without compensation, as demonstrated in public hearings," Ramaphosa said in a video message addressing "fellow South Africans, comrades, friends".

This is going to end in O for Awesome.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12099235

"The ANC [has] reaffirmed its position that a comprehensive land reform program that enables equitable access to land will unlock economic growth by bringing more land in South Africa to full use and enable the productive participation of millions more South Africans in the economy."

Productive participation eh?

Didn't I read a couple of years ago about crops on the majority of such "nationalised" farms rotting in the ground because the new owners couldn't be fucked harvesting them?

[carbonhed]

"The ANC [has] reaffirmed its position that a comprehensive land reform program that enables equitable access to land will unlock economic growth by bringing more land in South Africa to full use and enable the productive participation of millions more South Africans in the economy."

Productive participation eh?

Didn't I read a couple of years ago about crops on the majority of such "nationalised" farms rotting in the ground because the new owners couldn't be fucked harvesting them?

I'm sure it'll be different this time. Venezuela without the oil... maybe Zimbabwe?

If only they can get rid of those damn kulaks.......

[oldrider]

The New “Water Barons”: Wall Street Mega-Banks are Buying up the World’s Water https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-new-water-barons-wall-street-mega-banks-are-buying-up-the-worlds-water/5383274 - something tricky going on here? :wait:

[oldrider]

Atrazine: Chemical Used to Chemically Induce Homosexuality & Sexual Confusion - (Begs the question:- How many KB posters have been exposed to Atrazine?) :innocent:

<iframe width="922" height="519" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WmytXKe0OcM" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[carbonhed]

Not really a fan of Molyneux and Southern but Jesus they make Patrick Gower, supposedly one of our "elite" journalists look dumber than a sack of hammers. Dipstick was practically begging for mercy at the end :laugh:


https://youtu.be/mUR9U6Srj7g

[husaberg]

Not really a fan of Molyneux and Southern but Jesus they make Patrick Gower, supposedly one of our "elite" journalists look dumber than a sack of hammers. Dipstick was practically begging for mercy at the end :laugh:


https://youtu.be/mUR9U6Srj7g
She called Nazis Genocidal individuals Katman and oldie do not agree with that.

[Katman]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/09/dozens-dead-in-yemen-as-bus-carrying-children-hit-by-airstrike-icrc

And the World sits back and does nothing.

[husaberg]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/09/dozens-dead-in-yemen-as-bus-carrying-children-hit-by-airstrike-icrc

And the World sits back and does nothing.

So Whats your thoughts of Russians airstrikes civilian casualties then.....
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/15/russian-airstrikes-in-syria-killed-2000-civilians-in-six-months

[Viking01]

Guess it depends upon who is telling the story and their affiliation.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-misleading-role-of-human-rights-ngos-in-international-politics/5649974

[Viking01]

A long article, but some may find it worth the read.

https://truthout.org/articles/neoliberal-fascism-and-the-echoes-of-history/

[oldrider]

Is this the result of ("HART") Halt All Racist Tours activities in New Zealand? - Where are the protesters today? - Time is a great revealer! :wait: Is South Africa now a failed state? :scratch:

<iframe width="922" height="519" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/OmdwJRrMFQ4" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-sold-weapons-argentina-falklands-war-declassified-files-foreign-office-a7209646.html

[oldrider]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-sold-weapons-argentina-falklands-war-declassified-files-foreign-office-a7209646.html

There is a large population of Jewish people living in Argentina:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country

[Viking01]

It's been an interesting fortnight watching some of the happenings
outside of the US. In particular, Turkey and Greece, whose history
seems to have been forever intertwined.

1. Turkey

Erdogan and Turkey still seems to be trying to steer a "middle path"
between US/Europe and Russia/China. Because of his/its positions on
various issues like:

- Threat of release of refugees into Europe,
- Purchase of S400s from Russia,
- Not supporting the US re the Kurds in Syria,
- Imprisoning a Christian pastor,

it is on the receiving end of US economic sanctions (not to mention
"doubled" product tariffs on steel and aluminium exports to the US).

The following article is interesting not only because of discussion
of Turkey's current financial problems, but also the mention of USD
denominated loans and how rising US interest rates (along with lower
trade volumes) could affect Turkey - and other countries in Asia.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2160222/turkeys-crisis-shows-deeper-disease-and-asia-infected-too

Challenges ahead for countries heavily dependent upon oil (needing
to settle oil purchases in USD), and/or having to service previously
cheap loans denominated in USD.

The article also points to :

- A knock-on effect - Not only the direct effect upon China (due to
the current US trade war), but also upon Asian countries that had
had taken out loans for the building of infrastructure tied to Chinese
OBOR) --> A useful way for the US to constrain spread of new OBOR
infrastructure throughout Asia.

Witness recent effects upon Laos and Malaysia (the Malaysian PM
Mahathir Mohamad is in Beijing at the moment). The following article
makes their view regarding future Chinese loans to Malaysia:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1116133.shtml

Mahathir Mohamad will also have good memory of what happened to
Malaysia in the late 1990's during the Asian "currency crisis", and
what US banks, hedge funds and the IMF did to the "Asian Tigers"
during that period.

- One reason why China is in no hurry to liquidate its 1.3Tr holding
in USD (regarding fighting a trade war with the US ) --> Its USD
holding will be a useful "diplomatic tool" for buying influence within
Asian, African and Latin American countries (not to mention the
South Pacific) via low-interest loans and aid.

2. Greece

Greece has always been a country of interest to me, not only because
of its history, but having worked on a project with an international
Greek company in the past, and knowing several local Greek families
very well.

I have recently been doing some more reading on the IMF, and on
some recent IMF interventions (including both Greece and Cyprus,
where the latter is split between Turkey and Greece).

So it was "surprising" to read two new articles today talking about
a related subject (i.e. the end of the scheduled Greek bailout cycle),
but which highlighted the difference between various news sources
quite graphically.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-greece-bailout/greece-exits-final-bailout-successfully-esm-idUSKCN1L40OG

If you had read only the article above, you'd have thought it was a
marvelous success (I believe "Mission Accomplished" is the phrase).
Without any notable social issues or pain. And no mention of forced
sell-off of state assets.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/19/greeces-bailout-is-finally-at-an-end-but-has-been-a-failure

The Guardian article is much closer to the truth, but even it does
not begin to give an appreciation on really what happened to Greek
society over the past years while the economy was "under IMF/ECB
management".

Which leads me to the last point.

3. The IMF (and recent Bail-In Provisions)

If you want to read an informative book on the IMF and some of its
interventions (from Russia in the 1990's through to Cyprus in 2015),
can I suggest: "Pillaging the World - The History and Politics of the
IMF", written by Ernst Wolff. 200 pages and very well written and
readable.

https://www.amazon.com/Pillaging-World-History-Politics-IMF-ebook/dp/B00PQQC7D6

It is not only a good book re its recounting of some modern history,
but it also outlines some of the banking skulduggery going on in the
background.

Which strangely either never made it to the front page of most major
western newspapers, or if it did, the "truth" was often quite sparse.

While I found the whole book interesting, one of the most important
pieces was near the end of the book, when it discussed depositor
"bail-in" provisions. Where bond and depositor funds are "taken" in
order to rebuild a banks balance sheet.

Which had been "trialed by the IMF in Cyprus, and was deemed
by the IIF to have worked very well for recapitalisation of banks"
(read "worked well for bank shareholders").

And that once the Swiss IIF (Institute of International Finance) had
made its recommendation on bail-in, "the US, Canada, UK, Australia
and NZ hastened to follow the Swiss example, and immediately made
arrangement to incorporate it into their legal systems".

In our case, see OBR or "Open Bank Resolution".

While the following NZ Reserve Bank document has obviously been
written to avoid causing undue worry for NZ depositors, rules will
likely be applied regardless of the cause of the "bank failure" (e.g.
whether local or overseas ; arising from imprudent bank lending or
economic down-turn).

https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/-/media/ReserveBank/Files/regulation-and-supervision/banks/policy/5340579.pdf?la=en

It was interesting to note that IMF/ECB bail-in provisions applied in
Cyprus (in response to reckless bank lending) did not treat either
bond-holders and small depositors at all well.

And that some larger banks and financial parties had received "ample
warning and time", allowing them to make transfer arrangements from
affected banks and so shift their funds "out of harms way".

Finish with the following article:

https://goldsurvivalguide.co.nz/bank-bail-ins-new-zealand-leading-way-wrong-reasons/

[Viking01]

No doubt the US press will be full of praise for the man:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-08-25/john-mccain-dead-81

Though there are some who will query the story told:

http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-tokyo-rose-ran-for-president/

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/mccain-and-the-pow-cover-up/

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/08/25/do-not-let-them-make-a-saint-of-this-asshole/

[Viking01]

http://thesaker.is/the-us-state-department-openly-outlined-its-plans-to-guarantee-americas-global-primacy/

[Viking01]

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/09/07/billionaires-plan-escape-from-apocalypse/

Mind you, if the likes of them are responsible for the next financial crisis,
and me living in penury during my retirement, I'd better go sharpen the
pitchfork right now.

[Viking01]

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/437893-libya-chaos-nato-violence/

[oldrider]

Why you should always wear good gloves? https://twitter.com/SportFailTV/status/1039198093646938113/video/1?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email :ride: Ouch!

[Viking01]

It was interesting to see Trump's national security advisor (John Bolton) due to make a
speech Monday announcing US intention to withdraw from the International Criminal Court
(ICC) in the Hague. Supposedly because the US might be at risk of being accused of war
crimes and being brought before the Court itself.

http://www.euronews.com/2018/09/10/bolton-wants-sanction-icc-judges-who-probe-alleged-u-s-n908011
https://www.dw.com/en/us-threatens-to-arrest-icc-judges-over-war-crimes-probe/a-45435900

This announcement (intention to withdraw from an international organisation) is certainly
not the first in recent times, and certainly not by the Trump administration alone (i.e. US
intention to withdraw from UNESCO was reported in 2011 during the Obama administration,
although it was 2017 before that event actually occurred).

The ICC decision is perhaps to be expected, given earlier announcement in 2018 by the US
of its intention to withdraw from the UN Human Rights Council (UNHR).

Even though the US signed (but not ratified) up to the treaty that established the ICC,
you might think given all the "success" the ICC has achieved (in the prosecution of various
individuals from Yugoslavia and dictators in Africa ( who wouldn't do as instructed), the US
would still be happy to continue supporting the ICC and its operation.

But apparently not.

Given that the current announcement is tied to its operation Afghanistan, you'd have to
wonder whether there was truth to some of the news stories about US forces bombing
Afghan wedding parties and civilian hospitals.

I suppose when you are so used to bombing targets and see another building with a large
red cross on the roof, you'd almost be forgiven for thinking X (or +) marks the spot and
dropping the payload. Anyone could easily make the same mistake - if they didn't already
know the hospital GPS coordinates.

It seems the US doesn't want to play (be bound) by the same rules as applied to everyone
else, but instead wants to proceed down the path of bilateral agreements with countries
that US forces are to operate within ( i.e. "we'll just keep this between ourselves, no-one
else needs to know").

I'm not quite sure how this will apply to countries like Syria, but that's a separate thread.
Perhaps they'll just bomb them anyway (without a UN mandate). With just a hint of white
phosphorus to spice up the standard recipe .

So, with withdrawal from UNHR and ICC, it almost seems that the US is clearing the way
to avoid its being held accountable for future human rights atrocities it might commit.

I was going to say the US will no doubt try to point the finger at either Russia or China
in some way (given their interest in Afghanistan), but Federico Pieraccini's article (following)
summarises it better than I can.

https://southfront.org/us-efforts-to-halt-eurasian-integration-are-failing-miserably/

================================================== ======================================

Predicted US Withdrawal during Obama Administration
https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/11/01/senators-predict-massive-u-s-withdrawal-from-international-organizations/

UN Education, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) - Withdrawal in 2017
https://theconversation.com/why-the-us-withdrawal-from-unesco-is-a-step-backwards-for-global-cultural-cooperation-85692

UN Human Rights Council (UNHCR) - Withdrawal in 2018
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelposner/2018/06/19/u-s-withdrawal-from-the-un-human-rights-council/#6d4530f7de2b

World Trade Organisation (WTO) - Intention to Withdraw in 2018
http://fortune.com/2018/06/29/trump-wto-withdrawal/

[Viking01]

After Hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans in 2005, and more recently
Hurricane Maria (which devastated Dominica and Puerto Rico in 2017), the
decision of the Trump administration to deny Climate Change and its effects
seems madness at best.

After the recent anniversary of 911, Trump's trumpeting of success (despite
a comparable death toll) seems incongruous. Or maybe, like illegal immigrants,
they don't matter.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/09/11/lawmaker-trump-puerto-rico-3000-dead-americans-isnt-unsung-success-its-national

However, there might be a little more at stake this time.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/09/11/15-million-flee-hurricane-florence-worries-grow-over-half-dozen-nuclear-power-plants

So I watch with interest the next few days as Hurricane Florence bears down
on the Carolinas. Progress can be followed via the National Hurricane Centre
website:

https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/

I doubt that I'll be the only one watching. Maybe they will be fortunate
enough to "dodge the bullet". One can only hope.

[Viking01]

This whole international relations (and sanctions) business is starting to
get complicated.

US in Afghanistan
The US is still present in Afghanistan (after 18 years), still seeking to
bring "democracy and peace", while supporting their human rights.

US and India
The US has recently concluded a new armaments deal with India (though
who knows what will happen if India still proceeds with planned purchase
of Russian S400 missile systems).

https://news.usni.org/2018/09/09/new-india-u-s-arms-agreement-expanded-exercises-illustrate-growing-security-cooperation

And even though India is (currently) a US ally, the US is still going to apply
a 25% levy on Indian steel. Because that's what friends do. But that shouldn't
be a problem for India as not much Indian steel is sold into the US market.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/indl-goods/svs/steel/us-tariff-on-steel-import-may-indirectly-affect-india-minister/articleshow/64978250.cms

All good so far.

But India still needs to source iron ore for internal manufacturing - and it seems
a large deposit in Afghanistan is potentially a good local source of iron ore. [Not
to mention other valuable minerals]

But if we look at the map, Afghanistan is landlocked, inbetween Iran and Pakistan.

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Afghanistan/

India does not want to have to deal via its arch rival, Pakistan. And the US has
recently been threatening the new government of Pakistan with restrictions on
lending (via the IMF). So that option looks out of contention at the moment.

So the only realistic way to export iron ore from Afghanistan to India is via Iran,
specifically via the Chabahar port in southern Iran.

India has been busy developing the port with Iran. And China and Russia have
been heavily engaged with Iran building road and rail links down the east of Iran
to Chabahar, so the overland transport of ore might not be a physical issue.
Though it might become a political issue.

US and Iran
The US has recently pulled out of the JCPOA nuclear agreement with Iran,
and has both re-applied sanctions on Iran and has threatened it with social
unrest.

So the US may need to retrace some of its steps, and try and get Iran onside:

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201809141068015062-US-Waiver-Sanctions-Indian-Iranian-Port/

Might still be do-able. Never say never.

Back to the US in Afghanistan (full circle)

But the Taliban have recently been reasserting themselves across Afghanistan
once again, and have a strong presence in the west of the country.

While the Hajigak iron concession (just to the west of the Afghan capital, Kabul)
is nominally within government control, much of the land further to the west on
the way to Iran is under Taliban control (at least subject to transport disruption).

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2016/08/afghanistan-controls-160823083528213.html

And when we take a map for Afghanistan and look at its distribution of minerals,
it looks as if export of other minerals (of interest to the US) might be equally
challenging.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtml/jframe.html#https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/images/map-minerals-2012.jpg|||Afghanistan%20Minerals%20Map%202012

Somehow, this looks like a good object lesson in the value of building good
political relationships and friendships with other countries, and not threatening
them financially or militarily?

And why do I think that the "negotiation" process might have only just started ?

[Katman]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/16/air-pollution-particles-found-in-mothers-placentas

But Ocean will have you believe that things have never been better.

[carbonhed]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/16/air-pollution-particles-found-in-mothers-placentas

But Ocean will have you believe that things have never been better.

The human race spent tens of thousands of years cooking over open fires in mud huts... possibly even whilst pregnant... particles of soot in the lungs have been around for a looooooooooooooooooooooong time.

[Ocean1]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/16/air-pollution-particles-found-in-mothers-placentas

But Ocean will have you believe that things have never been better.

Dude, I'd have you believe whatever the fuck you like, but you proved years ago that you're completely immune to facts.

https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

[Viking01]

https://interactives.stuff.co.nz/2018/09/the-country-no-one-wants/

A friend of mine had been asking for background information on Chinese OBOR, and how a recent
online diagram had shown a line down through Indonesia and into the Timor Sea above Australia.
He was asking why this line was present, and conversation then got around to Timor Leste.

If you don't know exactly where it is: https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/Timor-Leste/

I saw this morning's article on Stuff (above), and when I sent the link through to him, I bet him
(without having even read the article) that:

1. this article would be just a "feel good" story, to show what a good international citizen NZ is
being (coming on the back of NZ's recent extension of tour of duty for the NZ army in Iraq and
Afghanistan)
2. The article will gloss over the bloody period just after TL's independence from the Portuguese
in 1975 (the role of Indonesia), and the subsequent behaviour of Australia (dispute over oil and
gas rights).

Why should we (or you) be interested ?

Well, it's another story about foreign power greed and of human rights abuse, but in our backyard.
For those old enough and with long memory, some may remember NZ losing a TV camera man in Dili
back in 1975 (executed by the Indonesian military):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balibo_Five


The following is a cut-and-paste from an earlier email sent to my friend:

Timor Leste
There is oil and gas to be had from the Timor Sea (Timor Leste), now that there has finally been
some more signs of progress on recognition of Timor Leste's claim to oil and gas rights within its
territorial waters.

Australia was dragging the chain in that respect (since the 2000's), likely in the hope that Timor
Leste would agree to more favourable oil and gas allocation (in Australian favour), given that TL
badly needed that income stream to help facilitate internal development (after its independence).

A recent article shows all is not yet settled, and I would suspect unless TL agrees to "development
projects" favouring Australia and the US first (= no Chinese involvement), resolution of territorial
claims will continue to languish.

https://theconversation.com/australias-deal-with-timor-leste-in-peril-again-over-oil-and-gas-95303

If you think that Australia's behaviour in terms of refugees in Nauru and PNG is poor, you should read
a little history about Timor Leste and its fight for its independence through the 1980's and the 1990's
(where Indonesia occupied western Papua). A high death toll and a very sad story.

The Australian investigative journalist John Pilger made himself very unpopular with Australian and US
governments for exposing the brutality of the Indonesian regime. Nothing to be proud about.

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-universal-lesson-of-the-courage-of-east-timor

He wrote a book ("Distant Voices") which also includes a section on Timor Leste.

http://johnpilger.com/books/distant-voices

[Katman]

https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

I knew you'd wheel your boyfriend out. :killingme

[Ocean1]

I knew you'd wheel your boyfriend out. :killingme

Facts?

Sure, why not, they're garlic for fuckwits like you.

[carbonhed]

What the world needs now are more left wing paradises....

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/china-social-credit-a-model-citizen-in-a-digital-dictatorship/10200278?pfmredir=sm

[mashman]

Facts?

They're not facts. They're extrapolations you dumb fuck.

[Ocean1]

They're not facts. They're extrapolations you dumb fuck.

Talk to the guy that counted the corpses.

[Katman]

Talk to the guy that counted the corpses.

Or you could talk to the fact that these days there is a greater range of chronic illness in children, and disease in society in general, than ever before.

Know anyone who's been affected by Cancer?

(And that's a rhetorical question - in case any dumb cunt's wondering).

[Ocean1]

Or you could talk to the fact that these days there is a greater range of chronic illness in children, and disease in society in general, than ever before.

Know anyone who's been affected by Cancer?

(And that's a rhetorical question - in case any dumb cunt's wondering).

Look, I know this is Stupid World, but "Rhetorical" don't get you a pass on backing your shit up.

Show us the evidence that everyone's sicker than ever, because that contradicts pretty much every other historical health metric on the planet.

[Katman]

Show us the evidence that everyone's sicker than ever, because that contradicts pretty much every other historical health metric on the planet.

Dude, it's time to forget those historical health metrics.

You need to take a look at the world around you.

[Ocean1]

Dude, it's time to forget those historical health metrics.

You need to take a look at the world around you.

Nah, it's time to call out misanthropic fuckwits for their completely unsupported claims that the sky is falling.

.... and point, and laugh.

[sidecar bob]

Or you could talk to the fact that these days there is a greater range of chronic illness in children, and disease in society in general, than ever before.

Know anyone who's been affected by Cancer?

.
Could you attach a link to your chronic illness research please? Where has Polio, TB & the Flu gone as chronic diseases and mass killers? We really should subtract them from the list you are adding to.
Before cancer was discovered people just died of "natural causes", usually around age 34, which essentially meant they died from the inside, not from having boiling fat poured on them while attempting to invade a castle, or similar.
The longer people live or expect to live, the more we can put their demise down to fixable things.
Did you know that the average life expectancy of a newborn in the slum part of Edinburgh in the 1600's was ten days?
I learned that on a tour I did there as a perk of my job as an international race team mechanic/transporter driver.;)