Stupid World

[mashman]

They have to do something - they are making more money but losing more assets
http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/Global/usa/planet3/PDFs/FUND-10-%20Audit.pdf
:lol:

I wish I could remember what Greenpeace was like when hippies ran it.

I guess sinking the odd boat will swing yer balance sheet in that direction.

[Ocean1]

I wish I could remember what Greenpeace was like when hippies ran it.

Not much different. Except for the 36" flares.

I did a bit of work on the first Rainbow Warrior the first time she was here. The whole thing was a fucking mess.

The chicks were hotter, then.

[Brian d marge]

TIN HATS ...

Please dont click unless you ARE wearing tins hats , , Alumi foil works well

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/NHpZXrEcf58" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tis the REAL reason(s)

Stephen

and its from youtube and looks dead professional like , so it must be true

[gwigs]

TIN HATS ...

Please dont click unless you ARE wearing tins hats , , Alumi foil works well

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/NHpZXrEcf58" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tis the REAL reason(s)

Stephen

and its from youtube and looks dead professional like , so it must be true

I watched it without a tin hat , now I,m worried that the Aliens might Know that I now Know about them..:laugh:

Interesting though and hey it could true..Alex Jones (http://planet.infowars.com/) proposes similar veiws

[avgas]

Found this doozy (http://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/7-harsh-truths-that-will-improve-your-life.html?utm_source=Lifehack&utm_campaign=4113d3f38f-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_983e966a3e-4113d3f38f-414654449) of an article - but I thought I better put a good quote from it here. Basically shows that in some situations we complain about stuff we could have fixed outselves (or at least minimised and mitigated).

"No One Is Going to Fix YouIf you are waiting for a knight in shining armor to gallop into your life and heal your broken heart, you will be waiting forever. The only person who can help you is yourself."

[mashman]

Egypt increases security before pro-Morsi protests (http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-increases-security-pro-morsi-protests-124746275.html)

"Meanwhile, the Egyptian government has begun deliberations on whether to ban the Brotherhood, a long-outlawed organization that swept to power in the country's first democratic elections a year ago"

So they were voted in, yet they should be outlawed? Just in case it happens again I guess. But this wasn't a military coup? So why did they remove a democratically elected government? Aye, democracy, brought to you by the US just so long as you adhere to the terms and conditions... or indeed aren't a Muslim govt it would seem.

[SPman]

Morsi was twat and his government weren't amenable to reason, but they were still the democratically elected gov, as you say. So democracy has failed for the poor masses...so....back to the tried and true rule of the AK47 it seems. What back country islam leaning peasant is going to trust the ballot box again.
On another matter closer to home - how many realise this thing is set to be slipped through....

The other spy bill II (http://norightturn.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/the-other-spy-bill-ii.html)

While attention is focused on the GCSB Bill, John Key's other spy bill, the Telecommunications (Interception Capability and Security) Bill (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2013/0108/latest/DLM5177923.html?search=ta_bill_T_bc%40bcur_an%40bn %40rn_200_a&p=1) is currently before select committee. The bill updates the Telecommunications (Interception Capability) Act 2004 (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2004/0019/latest/DLM242336.html?search=ta_act_T_ac%40ainf%40anif_an %40bn%40rn_200_a&p=1), which requires "telecommunications providers" to have built-in interception capability for police and spies. But it goes further than that, requiring ISPs to register with police like printing presses in pre-Enlightenment monarchies and giving the GCSB power to micromanage individual ISPs procurement decisions. More importantly, it allows them to require that internet services, such as Gmail, Dropbox, or any other website, also provide interception capability. And apparently the government is planning to impose this requirement in secret (http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/revealed-govt-plans-secret-orders-so-service-providers-under-spy-bill-ck-144562):

Para 104 of the December 2012 "Technical Paper: Telecommunications Interception Capability and Network Security" by MBIE (page 19 of the combined document); para 109 of the paper to the Cabinet Committee on Domestic and External Security Coordination (page 62); and para 37 of the Cabinet paper (page 74) all confirm the same thing:

A Ministerial directive will be used to secretly/confidentially impose an obligation to create interception capabilities by individually named service providers (referred to as "deem-in" but what I call a backdoor) "so as not to publicly announce a lack of capability in a particular service."

The Government is therefore going to be using secret orders to specific service providers directing the creation of interception capability, allowing real-time access by surveillance agencies

(The documents referred to are here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/159302367/OIA-for-TICS-Info-Re-Service-Providers-Merged))

So, its not enough for John Key to have the capability to spy on all your domestically sent emails and phone calls, he also wants to prevent you from being able to take any steps to protect your privacy. And while he says this will only be to "protect" us, overseas we've seen where this inevitably leads: to pervasive spying on whistleblowers, journalists, and others who expose wrongdoing by the bureaucracy and the government of the day.

Microsoft has already threatened to leave the country (http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/8986501/Spy-bill-a-threat-to-industry-says-Microsoft) in response to TICS, and they'd be wise to. but the real victims will be our small internet startups, whose services will be spook-compromised from the outset, and thus unmarketable overseas. The cost of this law may well be to strangle our internet industry, making us even more reliant on (poisoned) milk.

[mashman]

Morsi was twat and his government weren't amenable to reason, but they were still the democratically elected gov, as you say. So democracy has failed for the poor masses...so....back to the tried and true rule of the AK47 it seems. What back country islam leaning peasant is going to trust the ballot box again.
On another matter closer to home - how many realise this thing is set to be slipped through....


The other spy bill II (http://norightturn.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/the-other-spy-bill-ii.html)



They're all twats.

Put yer tin foil hat away. It IS for our own good. Freedom is overrated and should be actively discouraged and actively prosecuted. Running scared springs to mind. A bunch of chickenshit white muthafuckas running the world and all worried that their position in life is threatened by those who simply are not worthy of their consideration. It brings a smile to my face. Today, it's a bring on the meteors, volcanoes, earthquakes, karma day.

[Brian d marge]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/PHVWhkFz0JY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
these are the biggest twat

its an oldie , but worth watching .....

In the middle of watching,all I can think is...money is worthless

Stephen

[mashman]

these are the biggest twat

its an oldie , but worth watching .....

In the middle of watching,all I can think is...money is worthless

Stephen

I nearly wee'd when one guy excused greed as the enthusiasm for earning more money (likely not "wrong", but never heard it put that way before). Money is bad :D

[avgas]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/8CrOL-ydFMI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Brian d marge]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/rwiOn421aig" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
sorry has to go here

I knew they were dodgy ,but ,,,,, worth a watch , as it does happen here, and in NZ

Watch the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves

Stephen

[mashman]

Britain forced Guardian to destroy copy of Snowden material (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/britain-forced-guardian-destroy-copy-snowden-material-222933670.html)... Spies not happy at being spied upon... diddums.

[mashman]

sorry has to go here

I knew they were dodgy ,but ,,,,, worth a watch , as it does happen here, and in NZ

Watch the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves

Stephen

I wonder if the prices change on the day the CPI guy comes around? I guess they're all fighting for an ever dwindling pot of cash. Can't wait til things are too expensive, then perhaps people will start asking real questions about how we live.

[Brian d marge]

Step one of the "new world order"

make 4 gallons of Peapod wine

Step 2 ......grow veges in my garden and make a KILLER chiili sauce ( mad dog 357 and some )

Step 3 ...... might have to wait ,

Stephen

[avgas]

heh - has been happening for years. Many ago I read a study about "budget food in NZ".
Turns out that Pack-and-Saves annual marketing budget was EXACTLY the same as Foodtown etc. Butget/Pams packaging etc cost MORE that other brands.

To put things in perspective. Average paid amount for Avocado is $0.20 to the orchardist. They are not individually wrapped. Boxing costs are $0.01 per unit. Transportation costs, and cool store costs are near the same (for local produce). This paid amount has not increased in 17 years. Yet I have never seen one in a supermarket less than 1 dollar. Meaning 400+% mark up is OK.

Kiwifruit (green) is a couple of dollars per tray (36). This price changes frequently. But is determined by the only supplier in NZ - Zespri NZ. To put this in comparison - Fonterra whom is the primary supplier of milk in NZ returns on average 20-30% of revenue to farmers. Zespri which runs a similar model to Fonterra returns 5-7%.
97% is claimed as "expenses".

My friends in USA can buy NZ Green Kiwifruit 1/10th the price I can.......and anyone who claims economy of scale I can show you how export prices counterweight EOS.

[carbonhed]

Britain forced Guardian to destroy copy of Snowden material (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/britain-forced-guardian-destroy-copy-snowden-material-222933670.html)... Spies not happy at being spied upon... diddums.

Seems like it's all a bit more complex than that.

http://unfashionista.com/2013/08/19/the-lies-of-glenn-greenberg-and-the-guardian-a-short-primer/

[mashman]

Seems like it's all a bit more complex than that.

http://unfashionista.com/2013/08/19/the-lies-of-glenn-greenberg-and-the-guardian-a-short-primer/

My statement still stands in regards to spies not liking to be spied upon and your article highlights that even further. One mans freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

[Ocean1]

heh - has been happening for years. Many ago I read a study about "budget food in NZ".

I like it that farmers markets have sorta taken off over the last decade or so. I used to use the one down at the riverbank carpark when we lived closer, whether they were cheaper or not.

[blue rider]

heh - has been happening for years. Many ago I read a study about "budget food in NZ".
Turns out that Pack-and-Saves annual marketing budget was EXACTLY the same as Foodtown etc. Butget/Pams packaging etc cost MORE that other brands.

To put things in perspective. Average paid amount for Avocado is $0.20 to the orchardist. They are not individually wrapped. Boxing costs are $0.01 per unit. Transportation costs, and cool store costs are near the same (for local produce). This paid amount has not increased in 17 years. Yet I have never seen one in a supermarket less than 1 dollar. Meaning 400+% mark up is OK.

Kiwifruit (green) is a couple of dollars per tray (36). This price changes frequently. But is determined by the only supplier in NZ - Zespri NZ. To put this in comparison - Fonterra whom is the primary supplier of milk in NZ returns on average 20-30% of revenue to farmers. Zespri which runs a similar model to Fonterra returns 5-7%.
97% is claimed as "expenses".

My friends in USA can buy NZ Green Kiwifruit 1/10th the price I can.......and anyone who claims economy of scale I can show you how export prices counterweight EOS.


last time in germany, three years ago, 1 kg of nz kiwis 0.79 euro dollar. nz lamb leg whole 7.99 euro, litre of nz milk 0.79 euro.

i miss aldi. i do.

[blue rider]

interesting read

http://www.prwatch.org/files/Dissent%20or%20Terror%20FINAL_0.pdf

[mashman]

Employment Court decision a victory for working women (http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/employment-court-decision-victory-working-173728934.html)...it is 2013 and not 1913 isn't it?

[Ocean1]

Employment Court decision a victory for working women. ...it is 2013 and not 1913 isn't it?

So women are exactly equal to men, eh?

Sounds more like a victory for PC bullshit to me.

[mashman]

So women are exactly equal to men, eh?

Sounds more like a victory for PC bullshit to me.

In many cases no. They're better.

Sounds like more Victorian bullshit to me.

[blue rider]

http://enenews.com/japan-times-land-supporting-fukushima-reactor-buildings-at-risk-of-liquefying-area-near-sea-in-danger-of-turning-to-mud

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/08/130821-fukushima-latest-leak-how-is-it-different/

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/stories/what-can-28000-rubber-duckies-lost-at-sea-teach-us-about-

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/lake-babine-sockeye-fishery-at-risk-of-unprecedented-closure/article13715638/?service=print

ahh fun times all around

[Ocean1]

In many cases no. They're better.

Aye. So in those cases why wouldn't you pay them accordingly?


Sounds like more Victorian bullshit to me.

That's 'cause you're fucking clueless.

[mashman]

Aye. So in those cases why wouldn't you pay them accordingly?

That's 'cause you're fucking clueless.

Because trying to quantify the unquantifiable and then justify a decision to pay someone less based on some notion that I know what they do better than what they do is what I've come to expect from fucktards with entitlement complexes. Ignorant fucktards that should have read.

Clueless? Dude, you need a clue before you can start throwing clueless around... and, you sunshine, ain't got one.

In the meantime an interesting article "On "bullshit jobs"" (http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-markets-0?fsrc=scn/tw_ec/on_bullshit_jobs). The economy you revere is bullshit in the extreme. If you had a clue, you'd grasp why. You have a chance to redeem yourself, but I reckon the challenge is beyond your capability. Go ahead, astound me, show me that you understand what you're talking about... the worst that can happen is that I'll get a laugh out of it.

[Ocean1]

Because trying to quantify the unquantifiable

You mean like this?


In many cases no. They're better.


and then justify a decision to pay someone less based on some notion that I know what they do better than what they do

But I wasn't deciding to pay them less. I was suggesting that if they're better we should pay them more.

Sorta fucks up your wee rant, dunnit?


Clueless drivel

Meh.

[mashman]

You mean like this?

But I wasn't deciding to pay them less. I was suggesting that if they're better we should pay them more.

Sorta fucks up your wee rant, dunnit?

Meh.

Does it? They were being paid what they were worth weren't they?

And I was suggesting, well more than suggesting, that you haven't got a fuckin clue as you still believe that you can decide who should be paid more than who irrespective of colour, gender, age etc...

Oddly enough, no, it doesn't.

You didn't read the article did ya? Wotcha so scared of dude?

[Ocean1]

Does it?

Comprehensively. You just can't understand because it's not a cartoon.


And I was suggesting, well more than suggesting, that you haven't got a fuckin clue as you still believe that you can decide who should be paid more than who irrespective of colour, gender, age etc...

You can pay whoever you want whatever you want. Which is exactly what I do.

See? You're an evel capitalist after all.


You didn't read the article did ya? Wotcha so scared of dude?

Actually, the link didn't load in the 10 seconds I had to waste on your pathetic tirade. If I have time later I'll try again, if I can't dredge up the courage to slit my wrists first.


Oh, and nothing you've got, dude.

[mashman]

Comprehensively. You just can't understand because it's not a cartoon.

You can pay whoever you want whatever you want. Which is exactly what I do.

See? You're an evel capitalist after all.

Actually, the link didn't load in the 10 seconds I had to waste on your pathetic tirade. If I have time later I'll try again, if I can't dredge up the courage to slit my wrists first.

Oh, and nothing you've got, dude.

Interesting, coz it plays out as a string of cartoons in my head.

That's kind of my point.

No, I'm clueless.

And coz I;m a caring sharing kind of guy



On "bullshit jobs"
Aug 21st 2013, 12:59 by R.A. | LONDON

ANTHROPOLOGIST David Graeber has written an amusing essay (http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/) on the nature of work in a modern economy, which seems to involve lots of people doing meaningless tasks they hate:



In the year 1930, John Maynard Keynes predicted that, by century’s end, technology would have advanced sufficiently that countries like Great Britain or the United States would have achieved a 15-hour work week. There’s every reason to believe he was right. In technological terms, we are quite capable of this. And yet it didn’t happen. Instead, technology has been marshalled, if anything, to figure out ways to make us all work more. In order to achieve this, jobs have had to be created that are, effectively, pointless. Huge swathes of people, in Europe and North America in particular, spend their entire working lives performing tasks they secretly believe do not really need to be performed. The moral and spiritual damage that comes from this situation is profound. It is a scar across our collective soul. Yet virtually no one talks about it.

It is not the case, he writes, that people have to keep working to produce the consumer goods for which the rich world hungers. Outrageously, meaningless employment—in what he calls "bullshit jobs"—is concentrated in “professional, managerial, clerical, sales, and service workers”:



In other words, productive jobs have, just as predicted, been largely automated away (even if you count industrial workers globally, including the toiling masses in India and China, such workers are still not nearly so large a percentage of the world population as they used to be).

But rather than allowing a massive reduction of working hours to free the world’s population to pursue their own projects, pleasures, visions, and ideas, we have seen the ballooning not even so much of the “service” sector as of the administrative sector...

Why in the world would firms spend extraordinary amounts of money employing people to do worthless tasks (especially when they've shown themselves to be exceedingly good at not employing people to do worthless tasks)? Says Mr Graeber:



The ruling class has figured out that a happy and productive population with free time on their hands is a mortal danger (think of what started to happen when this even began to be approximated in the ‘60s).

I am immediately bursting with questions. Such as, should we conclude that protesters around the world—in Brazil, India, North Africa, Turkey—are in fact too happy? How does the ruling class co-ordinate all this hiring, and if much of the economy's employment is useless in the first place why not just keep them on during recessions?

But there is actually an important point here. The place to start is to recognise that, romance aside, many of the industrial jobs that have been automated away were incredibly tedious and unpleasant for those doing them. The development of assembly line processes contributed to rising worker wages in part because of increased productivity...but also because employers were tired of training workers only to lose them once they realised they'd be affixing Tab A to Frame B, repeatedly, all day long.

Employers had to retain such workers—had to pay them a wage sufficient to keep them on the job despite its dreadful tedium—because the machines of the era lacked the manual dexterity to complete the required tasks, and so a line of human machines was the only way to make the highly productive assembly-line system work. As technology evolved, however, automating routine tasks became ever easier. And the high wages needed to compensate labourers for the soul-crushing repetitiveness of their work gave employers every incentive to automate routine tasks as soon as it was technically feasible.

Perhaps you see where this is going.

As technology has improved, it has become ever easier to dispense with human labour in mechanical processes. There are still jobs where a very high level of physical dexterity and task flexibility is needed—in construction, for example, or janitorial work—and people continue to do those jobs. But it is not surprising that employment growth has shifted elsewhere. And administrative jobs are the modern equivalent of the industrial line worker.

Over the past century the world economy has grown increasingly complex. The goods being provided are more complex; the supply chains used to build them are more complex; the systems to market, sell and distribute them are more complex; the means to finance it all is more complex; and so on. This complexity is what makes us rich. But it is an enormous pain to manage. I'd say that one way to manage it all would be through teams of generalists—craftsman managers who mind the system from the design stage right through to the customer service calls—but there is no way such complexity would be economically workable in that world (just as cheap, ubiquitous automobiles would have been impossible in a world where teams of generalist mechanics produced cars one at a time).

No, the efficient way to do things is to break businesses up into many different kinds of tasks, allowing for a very high level of specialisation. And so you end up with the clerical equivalent of repeatedly affixing Tab A to Frame B: shuffling papers, management of the minutiae of supply chains, and so on. Disaggregation may make it look meaningless, since many workers end up doing things incredibly far removed from the end points of the process; the days when the iron ore goes in one door and the car rolls out the other are over. But the idea is the same.

One question is why today's workers aren't rewarded with high wages for their suffering. And one possible answer is that, well, they are. Real wages for today's clerical workers are far higher than they were for manufacturing workers a century ago, and the work, for all its tedium, probably isn't nearly as unpleasant. Administrative workers get to sit down in climate-controlled offices, tweeting and playing fantasy football on their desktop when time allows. If firms had to pay more to get a body in the deskchair, they would.

Technology continues to improve, however. Just as robots became ever better at various manual tasks over the past century—and were therefore able to replace human labour in a growing array of jobs, beginning with the most routine—computer control systems are able to handle ever more of the work done by human administrative workers. Jobs from truck driver to legal aid to medical diagnostician to customer service technician will soon be threatened by machines. Starting with the most routine tasks. Human labour will not be eliminated entirely from these sectors. Jobs that require a particularly high level of task flexibility, or creativity, or empathy may continue to employ people (for a while). Yet most office jobs will eventually go the way of the dodo.

And at that point advanced economies may find it necessary to address what is really the central complaint in Mr Graeber's essay. The issue is not that jobs used to have meaning and now they don't; most jobs in most periods have undoubtedly been staffed by people who would prefer to be doing something else. The issue is that too little of the recent gains from technological advance and economic growth have gone toward giving people the time and resources to enjoy their lives outside work. Early in the industrial era real wages soared and hours worked declined. In the past generation, by contrast, real wages have grown slowly and workweeks haven't grown shorter.

The development of large-scale technological unemployment or underemployment, however, would force rich societies to revisit a system that primarily allocates purchasing power via earned wages. And that, in turn, could allow households to get by or even thrive while working many fewer hours than is now typically the case—albeit through a pretty hefty level of income redistribution. They would then be free to write poetry or tutor disadvantaged children, though we shouldn't be surprised if most use their new leisure to spend more time with a beloved video game.

We can't be certain that the robots are coming for all our jobs. Disemployment in administrative jobs could create new, and perhaps highly remunerative, work in sectors or occupations we can't yet anticipate. If we're lucky, that work will be engaging and meaningful. Yet there is a decent chance that "bullshit" administrative jobs are merely a halfway house between "bullshit" industrial jobs and no jobs at all. Not because of the conniving of rich interests, but because machines inevitably outmatch humans at handling bullshit without complaining.

[Ocean1]

You didn't read the article did ya?

Just did.

Let me astound you by saying that I agree with almost every sentiment and opinion expressed therein.

Except for the tinfoil hat shit about the "ruling class".

But there's absolutely nothing there that indicates the performance of an economic system. Mostly just observations about the undesirable effects of ballooning administration and compliance related costs and the effect such bullshit has on morale.

Which, as I said is all perfectly correct, anathema to the free market.

[mashman]

Just did.

Let me astound you by saying that I agree with almost every sentiment and opinion expressed therein.

Except for the tinfoil hat shit about the "ruling class".

But there's absolutely nothing there that indicates the performance of an economic system. Mostly just observations about the undesirable effects of ballooning administration and compliance related costs and the effect such bullshit has on morale.

Which, as I said is all perfectly correct, anathema to the free market.

I thought you would agree with most of it. Given that you, and the "ruling class", understand A reason why this "attitude" exists, do you take the "attitude" into account when remunerating your staff? The "ruling class" obviously do, which is why these jobs are seen as less deserving of a high wage.

The "ruling class" exists. I've met at least one of them and that "attitude" doesn't disappear overnight, if ever.

The jobs are the economic system. I thought the article made that clear. The Graeber article kind of misses the point though.

Why is it an anathema to the free market when each job is an integral part of it?

[Ocean1]

I thought you would agree with most of it. Given that you, and the "ruling class", understand A reason why this "attitude" exists, do you take the "attitude" into account when remunerating your staff? The "ruling class" obviously do, which is why these jobs are seen as less deserving of a high wage.

I take it that by "ruling class" you mean those that believe they have the right to decide what to buy with their hard earned and how much to pay for it? And I'm pickin' that by "attitude" you mean disagreeing that those selling shit should dictate what we should pay for it?

In which case I'd say a massive majority of the population are "ruling class" with "attitude".

I've explained to you before how I remunerate my staff. I can't afford employees, but those that work with me from time to time are remunerated well above market rates because we produce superior results and I expect them to perform accordingly.

But, as I've pointed out before, just yesterday in fact, you should feel free to pay whatever the fuck you want for absolutely any service or trinket you buy. That's your right. As it is mine.


Why is it an anathema to the free market when each job is an integral part of it?

Overbearing administration and compliance related costs are pretty much 100% loss. They don't actually produce anything anyone wants, so they're not only not an integral part of any free market they're the complete opposite: a parasitic waste of resources.

[Brian d marge]

I dont know if you people have met any of these idiots

but they have " im better than you" attitude ,

J k , Ive seen him switch into this condescending attitude , I often see it , even in David lange

its wrong

its a perceived position of power and if you know what to look for "oh the fun and games that can be had"

Stephen

[jonbuoy]

What about the self made tycoons - are they part of the ruling class conspiracy - or do you think they become part of it as they get richer and more powerful? Mark Zukenburg, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates?

http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/lists/rich/self-made-women-billionaires/

[mashman]

I take it that by "ruling class" you mean those that believe they have the right to decide what to buy with their hard earned and how much to pay for it? And I'm pickin' that by "attitude" you mean disagreeing that those selling shit should dictate what we should pay for it?

In which case I'd say a massive majority of the population are "ruling class" with "attitude".

I've explained to you before how I remunerate my staff. I can't afford employees, but those that work with me from time to time are remunerated well above market rates because we produce superior results and I expect them to perform accordingly.

But, as I've pointed out before, just yesterday in fact, you should feel free to pay whatever the fuck you want for absolutely any service or trinket you buy. That's your right. As it is mine.

Overbearing administration and compliance related costs are pretty much 100% loss. They don't actually produce anything anyone wants, so they're not only not an integral part of any free market they're the complete opposite: a parasitic waste of resources.

Not even close. The "ruling class" aren't just an "attitude", however their attitude is about thing that trickles down from atop their lofty perch. They unequivocally set themselves to be perfect examples of human beings in everything they do, say and are and anyone who does not aspire to live similarly is not worthy of any consideration and is allowed to breath their air under their grace.

You have explained how you remunerate your staff... I was just asking if attitude played a part in your "calculation" is all.

I agree with you to huge extent, but WTF are ya gonna do with all of those administration people who you would unemploy? The reality is that they are an integral part of the free market. Tis highly unlike you to ignore reality... were you drunk at the keyboard or somefink.

[mashman]

What about the self made tycoons - are they part of the ruling class conspiracy - or do you think they become part of it as they get richer and more powerful? Mark Zukenburg, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates?

http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/lists/rich/self-made-women-billionaires/

Nah, they're just guys who got rich. I love the phrase self-made, coz that just ain't true... but each to their own.

[unstuck]

http://cdn.lulztruck.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/A-Self-Made-Man.jpg

[pzkpfw]

Had a fortune cookie the other day (yes, really) that said "you don't help the poor Man by destroying the rich Man".

[avgas]

I dont know if you people have met any of these idiots

but they have " im better than you" attitude ,

J k , Ive seen him switch into this condescending attitude , I often see it , even in David lange

its wrong

its a perceived position of power and if you know what to look for "oh the fun and games that can be had"

Stephen
People never pull themselves into positions of power with good intentions. The only ones with good intensions are the ones whom didn't seek the power in the first place but had it thrust upon them.
That is why you never trust a politician. Politicians are no accident.

[unstuck]

Had a fortune cookie the other day (yes, really) that said "you don't help the poor Man by destroying the rich Man".

True that.:niceone:

[Ocean1]

Not even close. The "ruling class" aren't just an "attitude", however their attitude is about thing that trickles down from atop their lofty perch. They unequivocally set themselves to be perfect examples of human beings in everything they do, say and are and anyone who does not aspire to live similarly is not worthy of any consideration and is allowed to breath their air under their grace.

So why not just say "arrogant bastards". Who, by the way don't have a monopoly on wealth, jobs, remuneration or the economy in general, there are as many non-wealthy arrogant bastards as rich ones. Probably more.


You have explained how you remunerate your staff... I was just asking if attitude played a part in your "calculation" is all.

Attitude is something other people have, people who's opinion you don't agree with. I have facts. My "calculation" on remuneration is based on the value of the person in question. Value measured by their contribution to the bottom line. Any significantly different way of doing it don't work. Pun intended.


I agree with you to huge extent, but WTF are ya gonna do with all of those administration people who you would unemploy?

Are you trying to suggest there's nothing better for them to do than waste resources? There's nothing they can do that actually contributes to the economy, rather than damages it?


The reality is that they are an integral part of the free market. Tis highly unlike you to ignore reality... were you drunk at the keyboard or somefink.

How can anyone who doesn't actually produce anything someone else wants be a part of a free market? They're parasites. And they know it, the article you posted agrees, suggested they hated their jobs, knew it was make-work and longed to do something productive.

Reality agrees too, every means to subvert a free market produces distortions in the market that have a far greater reach than intended, dragging GDP down. And there's an imperial shitload of subversive rules and compliance issues that produce nothing of value, all costing the economy an unbelievable quantity of manpower and cash and very rarely producing the desired effect.

[jonbuoy]

Had a fortune cookie the other day (yes, really) that said "you don't help the poor Man by destroying the rich Man".

Yup Zimbabwe is a good example.

[avgas]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Wsn3VXl2xE0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

Had a fortune cookie the other day (yes, really) that said "you don't help the poor Man by destroying the rich Man".

Given that it isn't the rich man that physically produces the product, the harm to the poor would be minimal as others would take their place. However destroying them is pointless.

[mashman]

So why not just say "arrogant bastards". Who, by the way don't have a monopoly on wealth, jobs, remuneration or the economy in general, there are as many non-wealthy arrogant bastards as rich ones. Probably more.

Attitude is something other people have, people who's opinion you don't agree with. I have facts. My "calculation" on remuneration is based on the value of the person in question. Value measured by their contribution to the bottom line. Any significantly different way of doing it don't work. Pun intended.

Are you trying to suggest there's nothing better for them to do than waste resources? There's nothing they can do that actually contributes to the economy, rather than damages it?

How can anyone who doesn't actually produce anything someone else wants be a part of a free market? They're parasites. And they know it, the article you posted agrees, suggested they hated their jobs, knew it was make-work and longed to do something productive.

Reality agrees too, every means to subvert a free market produces distortions in the market that have a far greater reach than intended, dragging GDP down. And there's an imperial shitload of subversive rules and compliance issues that produce nothing of value, all costing the economy an unbelievable quantity of manpower and cash and very rarely producing the desired effect.

Coz it goes beyond arrogance. The "attitude" is that they own everything and everyone and that everything and everyone should submit to their bidding irrespective of whether it kills people along the way.

I can understand why you don't want to answer the question.

So you're saying that they're unproductive? Without their wages and employment your economy would blow into a million pieces and noone would have the money to buy anything. Without their wages GDP would be woeful. They are an integral part. The free market is a myth. My reasoning for the hatred of their jobs etc... is primarily seated in the source article by Graeber. However I believe that he has ignored, or hasn't really grasped, the primary factor that leads to the malaise.

Yup, agreed. There are a huge amount of jobs that really aren't required. Mine is one of them. Having said that, and you're not going to like this, if you want true efficiency etc... then production should be in the hands of as many monopolies as there are business sectors. to that end I am as right wing extreme as you could possibly imagine, but given the damage it does, I end up balancing the need of monopolies by taking one step left and becoming an extreme left dweller and removing the damaging factor from that equation i.e. money. That makes me neither left nor right wing, rather I want to see things done because they need doing and not because a bunch of fucktards who are stuck in the industrial age believe that it is their right to make profit off of the backs of others, whilst leaving those others fighting the wolf at the door.

[Ocean1]

Coz it goes beyond arrogance. The "attitude" is that they own everything and everyone and that everything and everyone should submit to their bidding irrespective of whether it kills people along the way.

Convicted murderers, then. Mostly locked up ain't they?

Or are you simply attributing extreme fantasies to people you don't like but can't say exactly why?

Again.


I can understand why you don't want to answer the question.


What fucking question? If you can't be fukt selectively quoting then your atrocious comprehension is going to make your shit completely incomprehensible.


So you're saying that they're unproductive? Without their wages and employment your economy would blow into a million pieces and noone would have the money to buy anything. Without their wages GDP would be woeful. They are an integral part. The free market is a myth. My reasoning for the hatred of their jobs etc... is primarily seated in the source article by Graeber. However I believe that he has ignored, or hasn't really grasped, the primary factor that leads to the malaise.

Am I saying unproductive people don't contribute to GDP? Absolutely, only a fuckwit would claim otherwise.

Oh...


There are a huge amount of jobs that really aren't required.

So, there are shitloads of jobs that aren't required, but it's not the ones than don't produce anything?

And non productive jobs actually contribute to GDP. Right.

I know exactly who it is that doesn't require non-productive jobs: those that pay for them.

Exactly which jobs do you think aren't required, and exactly who is it that you think doesn't require them?

Nah, don't bother, I've had enough of your paranoid fantasies.

[mashman]

Convicted murderers, then. Mostly locked up ain't they?

Or are you simply attributing extreme fantasies to people you don't like but can't say exactly why?

Again.

You'll not find the "ruling class" anywhere near a jail. So no, they run about as freely as any person on this planet can.

:rofl: I have more on common with them than I care to mention. I'm glad I'm on my side and not theirs.



What fucking question? If you can't be fukt selectively quoting then your atrocious comprehension is going to make your shit completely incomprehensible.

You could have gazed back a couple of posts and seen the question instead of foaming at the mouth and spitting the dummy.



Am I saying unproductive people don't contribute to GDP? Absolutely, only a fuckwit would claim otherwise.

Oh...

Oh dear.



So, there are shitloads of jobs that aren't required, but it's not the ones than don't produce anything?

And non productive jobs actually contribute to GDP. Right.

I know exactly who it is that doesn't require non-productive jobs: those that pay for them.

Exactly which jobs do you think aren't required, and exactly who is it that you think doesn't require them?

Nah, don't bother, I've had enough of your paranoid fantasies.

An unrequired job is an unrequired job... if it produces money for the economy and keeps people from being a net tax drain, then surely the job is producing something that contributes to GDP?

I see. So screw the country and the wider economy, it's your needs that matter? Fuckin genius.

Any job that is a double-up i.e. if 1 company of 10 people can do the job, why have another company of 10 people that do exactly the same thing? Start with the essential jobs and start the cull.

Paranoid fantasies? That's got to be a new low for you, entertaining, but most certainly a new low.

[mashman]

Bedroom tax "lies" exposed as figures show 19 out of 20 victims have nowhere to move to (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-lies-exposed-figures-2129495)... money is bad.

[Brian d marge]

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Wsn3VXl2xE0" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

oh gosh , this theme of the American monster is getting " oh so worn out"

like HOW many years have I been banging on about the same thing ,,,


OH I know , MAYBE theres a grain of truth ................

I should translate this for ocean blue and the fat kid ..... baaaabbbbaaaahhhhaaa baaaaaaaa , why are we being pushed up this walk way , why arent my friends coming back , why is that dog so angry ,,,,,,,,FK ........


Stephen

[avgas]

oh gosh , this theme of the American monster is getting " oh so worn out"
Indeed. But perhaps for a second we ponder for a second why we have what we have in NZ. What if it wasn't the big bad american machine? What if that was a big fat scapegoat for a the little bald man with a vendetta.

I would really like to know how KDC pissed off John Key enough for him to get federal on his arse. Considering we have some of the best cyber-criminals on the planet in NZ and they barely get touched by NZ Cops.

I would really like to know how a reporter in Afghanistan pissed of the Chief of NZDF. Enough to go black ops on his ass.

There are probably countless other accounts of little people with vendettas whom use the American Machine to their advantage, or scapegoat.

There is some string pulling happening with exports right now. If I recall the last 12 months - Zespri, Fonterra, Manuka Honey........que the failure of the lamb and beef market in 3, 2, 1......

[mashman]

Young people 'should be told to cast vote or pay a fine' (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/aug/26/young-people-compulsory-voting-pay-fine-ippr?CMP=twt_gu)

"With Labour committed to lowering the voting age from 18 to 16, the thinktank said compulsory first-time voting was necessary to ensure that the wide gap in turnout between young and old did not get worse. First-time voters would face a small fine if they refused to participate in an election. They would have the option of voting for "none of the above".

Guy Lodge, one of the authors of the report, said: "Unequal turnout matters because it gives older and more affluent voters disproportionate influence at the ballot box. Turnout rates among the young have fallen significantly which means there is less incentive for politicians to pay attention to them."

So not voting will be against the law? and all because some ignorant fuckwits are worried about how it reflects on their policy setting. Likely the same fuckers who believe that they only represent the people that voted for them. You are not paid to represent only those who have voted for you. The true colours of politicians starting to show through... blame and punish the people for making politicians look bad.

[puddytat]

Im all for compulsory voting.
Will encourage people to take more time to find out what politics is about & as for the the likes of yourself Mashy,your non filled out form will actually count as something as oppossed to drawing rude pictures on it....;)

[MisterD]

Im all for compulsory voting.
Will encourage people to take more time to find out what politics is about

Tui billboard-tastic! :laugh:

Make voting compulsory, put "none of the above" on the ballot and watch that option romp home...

[avgas]

Im all for compulsory voting.
Will encourage people to take more time to find out what politics is about & as for the the likes of yourself Mashy,your non filled out form will actually count as something as oppossed to drawing rude pictures on it....;)
[ ] Red Bullshit
[ ] Blue Bullshit
[ ] Green Bullshit
[ ] Something else

If it was like this count me in.

[Ocean1]

Im all for compulsory voting.
Will encourage people to take more time to find out what politics is about

Meh.

If they need to be compelled to find out what it's about and then to do something about it what does that tell you about the likely quantity of research they'll do and the quality of their subsequent voting decision?

Most of 'em seem to think complaining about it after the fact is more important.

[puddytat]

Meh.

If they need to be compelled to find out what it's about and then to do something about it what does that tell you about the likely quantity of research they'll do and the quality of their subsequent voting decision?

Most of 'em seem to think complaining about it after the fact is more important.

Yep, your right.....most of 'em'll be retards, children of lower socio economic parents who've been disenfranchised by successive Govts & failed by an under funded education system & raised on media drivel & an excess of drugs & bling driven culture surrounded by a society thats too worried about their own problems to give a fuck any more.
Kind of like me.

:cry:

Its up to the individual init.

[mashman]

Im all for compulsory voting.
Will encourage people to take more time to find out what politics is about & as for the the likes of yourself Mashy,your non filled out form will actually count as something as oppossed to drawing rude pictures on it....;)

I need to setup a political party called 'non filled out' :shifty:... but if it is on the ballot, I will cast my vote. I'd prefer 'No Confidence' though. Even at that, I still don't think that compulsory voting is the way to go.

[mashman]

Congress Warned US Debt Ceiling Looms (http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/congress-warned-us-debt-ceiling-084406592.html)... bwaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaa. Die mutha fucka, die.

[unstuck]

Bring back the Magillicuddy serious party.:headbang::headbang:

[puddytat]

Nah...dunno if they'd get away with having a "militia" nowadays.......didnt you know that flour bombs & rolled up newspapers are now classed as WMDs.
Alfs Imperial Army members have been dissapearing .....

[unstuck]

Nah...dunno if they'd get away with having a "militia" nowadays.......didnt you know that flour bombs & rolled up newspapers are now classed as WMDs.
Alfs Imperial Army members have been dissapearing .....

http://chuckslowe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Schulz-I-know-nothing.jpg

[Banditbandit]

Im all for compulsory voting.
Will encourage people to take more time to find out what politics is about & as for the the likes of yourself Mashy,your non filled out form will actually count as something as oppossed to drawing rude pictures on it....;)

Me too - but you'll be lucky to get support from the Right to do that .. a high voter turnout has always favoured Labour and the left and a high voter turn out has usually led to a Labour Government

Making voting compulsory wil gaurantee a high voter turnout and probably give us a Labour/left Government again.

(it's the poor and disaffected who don't always vote - and vote Labour/left when they do)

[Banditbandit]

Bring back the Magillicuddy serious party.:headbang::headbang:

Didn't they re-name themselves and are currently lead by Peter Dunne?

[unstuck]

Didn't they re-name themselves and are currently lead by Peter Dunne?

No I think that is Ridgeways circus your thinking of.:niceone:

[avgas]

Isn't that Lord of Winterfell guy the new head of labour.
Wonder when he will roll on into the beehive.

[Banditbandit]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/188kfa791ev5xjpg/original.jpg

[Ocean1]

Yep, your right.....most of 'em'll be retards, children of lower socio economic parents who've been disenfranchised by successive Govts & failed by an under funded education system & raised on media drivel & an excess of drugs & bling driven culture surrounded by a society thats too worried about their own problems to give a fuck any more.
Kind of like me.

:cry:

Its up to the individual init.

Yeah, it's all the government's fault they don't vote.

Funny how those that rely on others to get by don't get as far, innit?

[mashman]

Funny how those that rely on others to get by don't get as far, innit?

Nice. But what about: when the shit hits the fan, who's going to process your food? You may decide that this is a fairytale born of rainbow pony land, I hope you don't, but there is a very real reality that Wellington, or anywhere else in the country, could take an absolute battering in a quake (or even a tornado). You understand what 0.1 means in regards to how powerful an earthquake is. We haven't had a 7 directly under our feet yet. How fast has Chch come together? That's a highly accessible city. To put it bluntly and without laboring the point (too much), you are going to rely on a huge supply chain (of people) to meet your needs in the long term should something go tits.

Yes as groups of individuals, we may well come together, I have my concerns (as do you re: the criminal element), but in that instance we'd still need to do what needs to be done anyway.

As a "community" (it'll take a country), that is set up (designed and implemented), with rain, hail and shine in mind (code for flood, hail (earth bombardment event), drought, famine, erradication of financial meltdowns :blip:, war, unforseen stupid world/society circumstance), we would recover more quickly than we would recover as groups of individuals with their own goals, imho. The earlier you start to prepare, the shorter the amount of time it takes to recover from an event. Money is getting in the way (waste of personel on the wrong tasks) of that. Is an event going to happen? When? 1 year, 5/10/15/20? But it WILL happen. Unlimited time offer, please see terms and conditions as hidden costs apply.

Have you really made your choice?

[puddytat]

Yeah, it's all the government's fault they don't vote.

Funny how those that rely on others to get by don't get as far, innit?

Yeah, theres no doubt about it....you can supply all the help they need & they will still struggle.
You can give help to others through social services & they will take it , do what they can with it & try & get on with life.
There are a lot of folk who ask for nothing at all from the Govt & still dont get as far......as some.
And its not for lack of trying.

[Ocean1]

Nice. But what about: when the shit hits the fan, who's going to process your food?

Food processing's not the problem, transport is. A KTM 525 might come in handy.

The family comes here, we've got room and they'd be safer and better able to make do here. The place is self sufficient in water and waste for maybe 10 people. I couldn't live off my vegie garden right now, but I could within a couple of months. The bottom orchard makes enough fruit for most of the neighbourhood, the top one makes some nuts. Chickens make a dozen eggs a day from scraps and weeds. Red meat's over the fence, traded for fruit, eggs, mech services, whatever. Solid fuel heating with plenty in the woodshed, plus a couple of months worth of LPG always in stock for burning dinner. The workshop's a couple of minutes away but probably down to 20% capability until power's back on...


I'd have serious fuel and arms stocked but both are slightly illegal. <_<

Get the idea?

[Ocean1]

Yeah, theres no doubt about it....you can supply all the help they need & they will still struggle.
You can give help to others through social services & they will take it , do what they can with it & try & get on with life.
There are a lot of folk who ask for nothing at all from the Govt & still dont get as far......as some.
And its not for lack of trying.

I know. But here's the thing, dude: We're so far down the welfare dependency road that over half of the country are entitled to a bunch of handouts. And that's without considering the multitude of bullshit subsidies like the discounted insulation programme designed to keep WHO happy that we're doing something about our draughty homes etc.

All that is mostly to make sure 51% of the country stay voting the right way. Actually last I heard it's 55%. Now, if we did away with all that bullshit and did something about the public's expectations regarding massively expanding healthcare capabilities then we'd be able to do something for those that really do need help, instead of rationing the supply across the board, as is happening now.

Our Japan correspondent reckons I'm an evel capitalist. He's as wrong there as he is about most things, but the fact remains that we have an extraordinarily large number of people dangling off the public teat that simply don't need to be there. And the longer it goes on the more they come to believe that they're OK, that they're entitled to it. And the real national income drops a bit more, along with our ability to do something where it really matters.

[Brian d marge]

Hey at least I back my shit with facts , unlike you
Nice try but ya still on the short bus

Stephen

[mashman]

Food processing's not the problem, transport is. A KTM 525 might come in handy.

The family comes here, we've got room and they'd be safer and better able to make do here. The place is self sufficient in water and waste for maybe 10 people. I couldn't live off my vegie garden right now, but I could within a couple of months. The bottom orchard makes enough fruit for most of the neighbourhood, the top one makes some nuts. Chickens make a dozen eggs a day from scraps and weeds. Red meat's over the fence, traded for fruit, eggs, mech services, whatever. Solid fuel heating with plenty in the woodshed, plus a couple of months worth of LPG always in stock for burning dinner. The workshop's a couple of minutes away but probably down to 20% capability until power's back on...

I'd have serious fuel and arms stocked but both are slightly illegal. <_<

Get the idea?

Nice. I'm sure you worked hard and smart for it.

[Ocean1]

Nice. I'm sure you worked hard and smart for it.

And lucky, there's always at least one imperial smidgeon of that. In my case it arrived in the shape of a very talented and hard working wife.

But y'know what's most important about that stuff? It puts me in a position to help, first the family, and then the locals that need it.

[mashman]

And lucky, there's always at least one imperial smidgeon of that. In my case it arrived in the shape of a very talented and hard working wife.

But y'know what's most important about that stuff? It puts me in a position to help, first the family, and then the locals that need it.

Lucky alright, she can't have married you for your charm.

Cool. Any available sections there?

[Ocean1]

Lucky alright, she can't have married you for your charm.

Cool. Any available sections there?

It certainly wasn't for money.

Occasionally. But there's room for everyone to have a decent lump of dirt in NZ, you've just got to get around the local authorities development rorts. Dismantle a few other unnecessary pieces of regulatory compliance bullshit and a couple of building materials monopolies and most could actually afford it, too.

[mashman]

It certainly wasn't for money.

Occasionally. But there's room for everyone to have a decent lump of dirt in NZ, you've just got to get around the local authorities development rorts. Dismantle a few other unnecessary pieces of regulatory compliance bullshit and a couple of building materials monopolies and most could actually afford it, too.

heh heh...

Aye, there is room for everyone and no doubt the rorts would bring the costs down, but saving 50k for a deposit, isn't that beyond that "55%" who are currently seen as teet suckin? So I question your most could afford it claim, but yeah, there is enough space, just poor logistics and a system that's in the way.

[Ocean1]

heh heh...

Aye, there is room for everyone and no doubt the rorts would bring the costs down, but saving 50k for a deposit, isn't that beyond that "55%" who are currently seen as teet suckin? So I question your most could afford it claim, but yeah, there is enough space, just poor logistics and a system that's in the way.

Saving the deposit on a house was only ever "easy" for the few years that you needed just 5%, and look how sustainable that turned out to be. For most of the last century you had to have 20 to 25% cash, a bit less if the old's helped out a bit. Most working Kiwi families managed that, usually just from the one income, and without the bullshit building costs you'd probably be back down to the historic "5 years graduate's income equivalent" for a house. So while I don't see it as an actual doddle I don't think it's beyond that 55% at all.

I must admit our parents and grandparents didn't have 56" TVs and I-shit that needed annually renewing, and fresh wheels every other year...

Hitcher reckons sections of a few acres are always going to cost a lot more simply because you've got maybe 20% of the usual number of homes having to pay for the same service infrastructure per kilometer. But as I pointed out at the time they don't usually come with water or sewerage conections to start with. I point it out to the council fairly regularly, too, roughly every rates demand.

[mashman]

Saving the deposit on a house was only ever "easy" for the few years that you needed just 5%, and look how sustainable that turned out to be. For most of the last century you had to have 20 to 25% cash, a bit less if the old's helped out a bit. Most working Kiwi families managed that, usually just from the one income, and without the bullshit building costs you'd probably be back down to the historic "5 years graduate's income equivalent" for a house. So while I don't see it as an actual doddle I don't think it's beyond that 55% at all.

I must admit our parents and grandparents didn't have 56" TVs and I-shit that needed annually renewing, and fresh wheels every other year...

Hitcher reckons sections of a few acres are always going to cost a lot more simply because you've got maybe 20% of the usual number of homes having to pay for the same service infrastructure per kilometer. But as I pointed out at the time they don't usually come with water or sewerage conections to start with. I point it out to the council fairly regularly, too, roughly every rates demand.

Houses should be free. We need more. We were lucky in the "boom" with property, well, more luck than judgement that's for sure. The architecture and potential of the Venus Project could be interesting. Building another city could potentially stimulate a stagnent economy. Lots of on the job training, architecture jobs, engineers etc... but they get to keep one of the houses. Dreams are free. Ideas cost.

Ooooo they missed out. Imagine showing yer gran some of the tech we have today. However I don't need to have it :blink:

He's likely bang on. Target those who can pay, although the tanks are running drier every day eh. We thought about 28 acres (from memory) for 310k between 4 in Whitemans. All things considered, connection costs without costing alternatives, consent, legality, rates, lack of an internet connection as well as not knowing what we wanted to build all conspired against us. And life goes on. :rofl:@rates reminder... you must be their most favouretest customer.

[mashman]

Financial stress may hit your brain and wallet (http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/financial-stress-may-hit-brain-181108531.html)

"She said poor people often have the same mainstream values about marriage and two-parent families as everyone else, but they don't seem to act that way. This shows that it's not their values but the situation that impairs their decision-making, she said. ". So, people may be affected by the mere thought of financial issues :shit: along with circumstances skewing how they might react otherwise. Hush your mouth.

[mashman]

Pffffffffffffft (https://www.truthdig.com/report/item/banks_put_a_price_on_earths_life_support_20130830/)... today's new money maker. 'Scuse me, we own the world, so we'll back money using the world as collateral. I feel kinda bummed at that thought.

[mashman]

Let the games begin :facepalm:

Verizon buys Vodafone's wireless stake (http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/verizon-buys-vodafones-wireless-stake-232903169.html)

Microsoft to acquire Nokia's handset business for $9 billion (http://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-acquire-nokias-handset-business-031642600.html)

[mashman]

SIS acts within the law, Key says (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/18766224/peters-complains-of-illegal-sis-raid/)... I wonder what the Fijian Democracy and Freedom Movement were planning. Democracy and Freedom maybe.

[Ocean1]

Pffffffffffffft (https://www.truthdig.com/report/item/banks_put_a_price_on_earths_life_support_20130830/)... today's new money maker. 'Scuse me, we own the world, so we'll back money using the world as collateral. I feel kinda bummed at that thought.

I'm surprised you'd have a problem with anyone quantifying environmental damage in an attempt to control it.

It is driven by banks, though. Must be fukn evel, eh?

[mashman]

I'm surprised you'd have a problem with anyone quantifying environmental damage in an attempt to control it.

It is driven by banks, though. Must be fukn evel, eh?

There's quantifying it and then there's quantifying it. Using financial mechanisms to keep track of how much of the Earth we're destroying? Really? Nothing more than, hey we've counted everything and what's more, as we've given birth to it we have a right to put a price on it. How are "they" going to control "it".

Meh.

[Ocean1]

There's quantifying it and then there's quantifying it.

Maybe. But only you can see the difference.


Using financial mechanisms to keep track of how much of the Earth we're destroying? Really? Nothing more than, hey we've counted everything and what's more, as we've given birth to it we have a right to put a price on it.

Where did it say that?

Or is that your neurotic anti-bank fetish speaking on their behalf? Again.


How are "they" going to control "it".

"They" told you how in the article. Wana try reading it with the other eye open?

[mashman]

Maybe. But only you can see the difference.

Where did it say that?

Or is that your neurotic anti-bank fetish speaking on their behalf? Again.

"They" told you how in the article. Wana try reading it with the other eye open?



It is not easy to put a value on a forest, a clean river, or unpolluted air, but that is what a group of the world’s biggest banks is attempting to do.

Sure there'll be a quantity involved, but this is business... how long do you reckon it's going to be before a tree is $42.99. An economy backed by scarcity will only ever push prices up as it fuels growth. Both eyes open.

I'm assuming there''ll be a future. Why shaft them when they'll have less than we have now?

[Ocean1]

Sure there'll be a quantity involved, but this is business... how long do you reckon it's going to be before a tree is $42.99. An economy backed by scarcity will only ever push prices up as it fuels growth. Both eyes open.

I'm assuming there''ll be a future. Why shaft them when they'll have less than we have now?

Yeah. That's nothing like what you said they said, is it?

Almost any tree you can name is worth more than that now, they're talking about adding a value commensurate with it's ecological value to control its exploitation. You'd have to be a rabid capitalist to have a problem with that.

And you don't have economies based on scarcity, I assume you mean a market value based on scarcity. And scarcity does push prices up, which far from fuelling growth in fact restricts it.

But don't let the facts get in the way like you usually...

Ah, as you were.

[mashman]

Almost any tree you can name is worth more than that now

Then once upon a time a tree was worth $42.99 and you have proven the point? The value for me is how the tree is used. If it's used for bus tickets i.e. "money" then it's a waste. All resources should be priceless.

[gwigs]

Bayer sues Europe over pesticide ban .

http://action.sumofus.org/a/bayer-bees-lawsuit/?sub=tw

[Ocean1]

The value for me is how the tree is used. If it's used for bus tickets i.e. "money" then it's a waste.

Which is precisely the contention of the proposal. And entirely consistent with a free market, if the tree has more value in the ground than bus tickets then it'd stay right there. Like I said it sounds like a slightly more lucid version of your usual rant.


All resources should be priceless.

Which is the exact opposite of your statement that they should be free. It also means nothing would ever be produced.

The sentiment is laudable, but it's not real world and either statement is simply nonsensical.

[mashman]

Which is precisely the contention of the proposal. And entirely consistent with a free market, if the tree has more value in the ground than bus tickets then it'd stay right there. Like I said it sounds like a slightly more lucid version of your usual rant.


Is it? We're putting a price tag on everything somehow magic's away many of the world's issues? Pish. Prices will rise, people will be able to afford less and less... BUT SOME WILL STILL BE ABLE TO AFFORD THE RESOURCE, likely to frame a 200 year old picture instead of shoring up a bridge.



Which is the exact opposite of your statement that they should be free. It also means nothing would ever be produced.

The sentiment is laudable, but it's not real world and either statement is simply nonsensical.

Oh lord... it's not that the tree is to stay in the ground to be priceless, it's being selective in what you use it for that makes it priceless.

Of course it's real world. How many other things are made from a tree that really aren't needed? Receipts, forms, travel tickets etc... all used and thrown away. Your world doesn't allow for humanity to function without its bits of paperwork, mine does... and it turns out that yours and my world's are exactly the same place, but with slightly different rules governing it's usage.

[mashman]

Watch the video. Ignore the title. This guy should be the head of Monsanto.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cocp7utUy64

[puddytat]

Bayer sues Europe over pesticide ban .

http://action.sumofus.org/a/bayer-bees-lawsuit/?sub=tw

So they are clearly having an effect on killing Bees & other pollinators with one product & yet are one of the main suppliers of Varroa treatments that are helping to save Bees.......
Making money wether they are fixing or fucking......

[carbonhed]

So they are clearly having an effect on killing Bees & other pollinators with one product & yet are one of the main suppliers of Varroa treatments that are helping to save Bees.......
Making money wether they are fixing or fucking......

So what killed the 37 million bees?

[Ocean1]

Is it? We're putting a price tag on everything somehow magic's away many of the world's issues?

Who said that? SOunds like you've been selectively translating shit again. Badly.


Oh lord... it's not that the tree is to stay in the ground to be priceless, it's being selective in what you use it for that makes it priceless.

.... Nope, makes no sense, gibberish I'm afraid.



Of course it's real world. How many other things are made from a tree that really aren't needed? Receipts, forms, travel tickets etc... all used and thrown away.

Who says they're not needed? The fella that paid for the tree certainly didn't agree with you, and as it's his tree he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants with it.


Your world doesn't allow for humanity to function without its bits of paperwork, mine does... and it turns out that yours and my world's are exactly the same place, but with slightly different rules governing it's usage.

Aye. Rules set by that committee, eh?

Big black dog upya.

[Brian d marge]

So what killed the 37 million bees?
just watched a BBC prog all about that
the chemicals, forget its name causes the bee to get disorientated and lose the hive
ALSO, the veroa and the loss of habitat ( monoculture)
As for do we need the bee, yes , or its dry toast for breakfast

Stephen

[mashman]

Who said that? SOunds like you've been selectively translating shit again. Badly.

So what are the banks that did the counting gonna do? Restore confidence by backing their financial system against the financial value of the planet's resources? or something entirely different?



.... Nope, makes no sense, gibberish I'm afraid.


All resources are priceless because they are to be used for a genuine purpose and not to make profit.



Who says they're not needed? The fella that paid for the tree certainly didn't agree with you, and as it's his tree he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants with it.


Tickets are a financial token that represent the financial value of some goods/services etc... They really are obselete, in exactly the same way as boarding passes etc... are. Ditch the financial system, save a tree for something that serves a genuine purpose. (No more circulars, YAY.)



Aye. Rules set by that committee, eh?

Big black dog upya.

As opposed to the rules set by the banks who have counted the trees? then yes, that committee.

I'd rather not indulge you in your fantasies if you don't mind.

[carbonhed]

just watched a BBC prog all about that
the chemicals, forget its name causes the bee to get disorientated and lose the hive
ALSO, the veroa and the loss of habitat ( monoculture)
As for do we need the bee, yes , or its dry toast for breakfast

Stephen

Colony Collapse Disorder? Sure as shit isn't that.

There's an interview with the apiarist here and pictures of the incident :-

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/ontario-bee-farmer-hoping-for-pesticide-ban-to-end-die-off-1.1354729#ixzz2YH5fT9UZ

Has all the hallmarks of an acute poisoning incident. Looks like somebody fucked up big time spraying something they were feeding on. I don't understand why they can't find out what the material was and who sprayed it. Everything applied has to be recorded and the records available for inspection. The apiarist must know what they were feeding on... surely?

[puddytat]

So what killed the 37 million bees?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid for a start



http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/cellphones-contribute-bee-colony-decline-study-suggests/story?id=13597625 possibly maybe as well

[Ocean1]

So what are the banks that did the counting gonna do? Restore confidence by backing their financial system against the financial value of the planet's resources? or something entirely different?

Perhaps if you tried something a bit different and actually read the fucking links you post to whinge about you'd find out, because they told you exactly what they proposed to do.


All resources are priceless because they are to be used for a genuine purpose and not to make profit.

Yes, yes we know that's what you'd like, but all that really means is that you want to decide what's a "genuine purpose". You get to decide what use is OK for your shit, for everyone else's shit you get to mind your own fucking business.


Tickets are a financial token that represent the financial value of some goods/services etc... They really are obselete, in exactly the same way as boarding passes etc... are. Ditch the financial system, save a tree for something that serves a genuine purpose. (No more circulars, YAY.)
.

The very last thing that'd produce fewer trees being felled is ditching the financial system. Anyone so benightedly fukt in the head as to manage to arrive in such a world would make like Douglas Adams' B ark idiots and start saving leaves instead.


As opposed to the rules set by the banks who have counted the trees? then yes, that committee.

Like I said, we know the current system's rules and the vast majority manage it just fine. You and your committee can get fukt.

[carbonhed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid for a start



http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/cellphones-contribute-bee-colony-decline-study-suggests/story?id=13597625 possibly maybe as well

The symptoms of Colony Collapse disorder include :-

1) complete absence of adult bees in colonies, with few or no dead bees in or around colonies,

The symptoms of this incident include :-

Drifts of dead and dying bees surrounding the colonies exhibiting symptoms of neurotoxicity.

After searching through mounds of reports I've managed to find one that says the Dept of Agriculture has taken samples and expects the results shortly. So then we'll know.

[mashman]

Perhaps if you tried something a bit different and actually read the fucking links you post to whinge about you'd find out, because they told you exactly what they proposed to do.

I did read the link, but I didn't store it in my wank bank. I have serious doubts that this is going to help. I won't take them at their word. Let's hope I'm wrong.



Yes, yes we know that's what you'd like, but all that really means is that you want to decide what's a "genuine purpose". You get to decide what use is OK for your shit, for everyone else's shit you get to mind your own fucking business.

No problem. You make it sound like 1984.



The very last thing that'd produce fewer trees being felled is ditching the financial system. Anyone so benightedly fukt in the head as to manage to arrive in such a world would make like Douglas Adams' B ark idiots and start saving leaves instead.

Care to try that one in English?



Like I said, we know the current system's rules and the vast majority manage it just fine. You and your committee can get fukt.

Vast majority manage what? You don't think that things are currently run by committees? Did you read the article? they're forming a new committee, well, at least one.

[Ocean1]

I did read the link, but I didn't store it in my wank bank. I have serious doubts that this is going to help. I won't take them at their word. Let's hope I'm wrong.

Given that you didn't bother retaining the relevant details you probably will be wrong.


No problem. You make it sound like 1984.

Most people would agree that having some arbitrary committee dictate what you can do with your life is pretty much what 1984 was about.


Care to try that one in English?

It is in English. Douglas Adams is possibly the language's most respected exponent. If you haven't read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy you aren't qualified to use the language.


Vast majority manage what? You don't think that things are currently run by committees? Did you read the article? they're forming a new committee, well, at least one.

Their finances. And I don't give a fuck what's run by committees, as long as they stick to their own business.

[mashman]

Given that you didn't bother retaining the relevant details you probably will be wrong.

Same shit, different currency. What more is there to remember?



Most people would agree that having some arbitrary committee dictate what you can do with your life is pretty much what 1984 was about.

And that's what you believe what would happen in "my" system because we would govern by committee? Other than being a very high level description of what would take place, it's quite the opposite as to how I see it. You can't just turn the entire system off.



It is in English. Douglas Adams is possibly the language's most respected exponent. If you haven't read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy you aren't qualified to use the language.

Well, I missed your point and still don't see one. Yes I read the series.



Their finances. And I don't give a fuck what's run by committees, as long as they stick to their own business.

I'm all for that, kinda. It would hasten the demise somewhat. Who the fuck gives a shit about your business out of the 7 billion people on the planet? What do you think you would lose given my overly authoritative committees?

[Brian d marge]

Colony Collapse Disorder? Sure as shit isn't that. There's an interview with the apiarist here and pictures of the incident :- http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/ontario-bee-farmer-hoping-for-pesticide-ban-to-end-die-off-1.1354729#ixzz2YH5fT9UZ Has all the hallmarks of an acute poisoning incident. Looks like somebody fucked up big time spraying something they were feeding on. I don't understand why they can't find out what the material was and who sprayed it. Everything applied has to be recorded and the records available for inspection. The apiarist must know what they were feeding on... surely? not in Britain it aint , That looks like a one of event, the link you posted ... , the bees have on their way out for a number of years , I re-interate my original post. Stephen

[Ocean1]

Same shit, different currency. What more is there to remember?

Selective memory, eh? Yeah, you definitely slide right off any reference showing your bogyman might possibly have the high ground.



And that's what you believe what would happen in "my" system because we would govern by committee? Other than being a very high level description of what would take place, it's quite the opposite as to how I see it. You can't just turn the entire system off.

Yes.

Contrary to popular belief the road to hell is paved with arseholes who feel the need to make other's decisions for them.

And how you see things wouldn't protect you from the big fuckoff steamroller of public opinion, should you ever be even slightly successful in your goal to dictate terms, no mater what "level" it's done at.


Well, I missed your point and still don't see one. Yes I read the series.

Faced with the prospect of no money they decided to make their own. They decided to use leaves, because they were certified fuckwits.

Inflation was a problem. But not as much as the fact that they were fuckwits who thought they knew how trade and commerce worked.

Apparently the B ark survivors didn't all die off after all, you're living, breathing proof of it.


I'm all for that, kinda. It would hasten the demise somewhat. Who the fuck gives a shit about your business out of the 7 billion people on the planet? What do you think you would lose given my overly authoritative committees?

Yeah. That "kinda" is a problem.

And apparently you give a shit, seeing as how you don't like the way everyoine else carries out there business. So thank's to the committee an'all, but fuck off.

[Smifffy]

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/the_effect_of_m.html

The Effect of Money on Trust

Money reduces trust in small groups, but increases it in larger groups. Basically, the introduction of money allows society to scale.

The team devised an experiment where subjects in small and large groups had the option to give gifts in exchange for tokens.

They found that there was a social cost to introducing this incentive. When all tokens were "spent", a potential gift-giver was less likely to help than they had been in a setting where tokens had not yet been introduced.

The same effect was found in smaller groups, who were less generous when there was the option of receiving a token.

"Subjects basically latched on to monetary exchange, and stopped helping unless they received immediate compensation in a form of an intrinsically worthless object [a token].

"Using money does help large societies to achieve larger levels of co-operation than smaller societies, but it does so at a cost of displacing normal of voluntary help that is the bread and butter of smaller societies, in which everyone knows each other," said Prof Camera.

But he said that this negative result was not found in larger anonymous groups of 32, instead co-operation increased with the use of tokens.

"This is exciting because we introduced something that adds nothing to the economy, but it helped participants converge on a behaviour that is more trustworthy."

He added that the study reflected monetary exchange in daily life: "Global interaction expands the set of trade opportunities, but it dilutes the level of information about others' past behaviour. In this sense, one can view tokens in our experiment as a parable for global monetary exchange."

[mashman]

Selective memory, eh? Yeah, you definitely slide right off any reference showing your bogyman might possibly have the high ground.

Whatever helps you sleep better dear.



Yes.

Contrary to popular belief the road to hell is paved with arseholes who feel the need to make other's decisions for them.

And how you see things wouldn't protect you from the big fuckoff steamroller of public opinion, should you ever be even slightly successful in your goal to dictate terms, no mater what "level" it's done at.

There are already people who make our decisions for us... well, the one's we let them make for us.

I'm counting on that, contrary to whatever warped view of what I see that you have. :rofl:@dictate.



Faced with the prospect of no money they decided to make their own. They decided to use leaves, because they were certified fuckwits.

Inflation was a problem. But not as much as the fact that they were fuckwits who thought they knew how trade and commerce worked.

Apparently the B ark survivors didn't all die off after all, you're living, breathing proof of it.

There no difference between using leaves and money in that case... and those who decide to rely on either are certified fuckwits.



Yeah. That "kinda" is a problem.

And apparently you give a shit, seeing as how you don't like the way everyoine else carries out there business. So thank's to the committee an'all, but fuck off.

So, you only like being ruled by the current committees because you know the rules? Not only that, but you believe you know the rules that would govern the comittees of "my" system where your perception of them is as close to Earth as it is to Voyager. Blinder. Don't change the rules, I'm comfortable :crybaby:...

[mashman]

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/the_effect_of_m.html

The Effect of Money on Trust


bwaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaa...

Edit: Yes, there is an alternative to capitalism: Mondragon shows the way (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/24/alternative-capitalism-mondragon)

[Ocean1]

Yes, there is an alternative to capitalism: Mondragon shows the way


There is no alternative ("Tina") to capitalism?

Really? We are to believe, with Margaret Thatcher, that an economic system with endlessly repeated cycles, costly bailouts for financiers and now austerity for most people is the best human beings can do?

He's obviously as clued up about what capitalism is as you are. :third:

[Ocean1]

So, you only like being ruled by the current committees because you know the rules? Not only that, but you believe you know the rules that would govern the comittees of "my" system where your perception of them is as close to Earth as it is to Voyager. Blinder. Don't change the rules, I'm comfortable :crybaby:...

The only financial rules I have to worry about are the ones attached to a loan. Y'know, the ones you actually agree to.

And you've continually refused to specify what your committee would and wouldn't allow, a pig in a poke, which is enough reason in itself to tell it to get fukt.

[Brian d marge]

bwaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaa...

Edit: Yes, there is an alternative to capitalism: Mondragon shows the way (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/24/alternative-capitalism-mondragon)
Kiwis, a committee...... Omg

You will get one bully , 300 sheep and fuck all done
Hahahaaaaaa

Stephen

[mashman]

The only financial rules I have to worry about are the ones attached to a loan. Y'know, the ones you actually agree to.

And you've continually refused to specify what your committee would and wouldn't allow, a pig in a poke, which is enough reason in itself to tell it to get fukt.

Well done you.

Yet you have decided that the committee would be fire and brim stone environmentalist socialist doogooders. But as you asked, they would likely would and wouldn't allow whatever they decided to allow and not allow. Who knows, it may well be run by businessmen.

[Ocean1]

Well done you.

Yet you have decided that the committee would be fire and brim stone environmentalist socialist doogooders. But as you asked, they would likely would and wouldn't allow whatever they decided to allow and not allow. Who knows, it may well be run by businessmen.

Like I said, you refuse to specify, the most reliable indicator of a snake-oil peddler. So why would anyone possibly be interested? Get fukt.

[mashman]

He's obviously as clued up about what capitalism is as you are. :third:

The solution is viable, but it'd be the beginning of yet another financial cycle unfortunately.

[Smifffy]

Kiwis, a committee...... Omg

You will get one bully , 300 sheep and fuck all done
Hahahaaaaaa

Stephen

It's how our govt and our biggest companies are run now. Devolve individual responsibility for poor decisions, but make more poor decisions.

[mashman]

Like I said, you refuse to specify, the most reliable indicator of a snake-oil peddler. So why would anyone possibly be interested? Get fukt.

And you happily fill in the blanks... and when you don't like the answer, you roll out snake-oil etc... People will be as interested as they wish, ya know, fuck you if you think I should show more interest. But hey, you like things the way they are.

[Ocean1]

And you happily fill in the blanks... and when you don't like the answer, you roll out snake-oil etc... People will be as interested as they wish, ya know, fuck you if you think I should show more interest. But hey, you like things the way they are.

Now who's filling in blanks? I've never claimed to be happy with every aspect of our society.

And if you want people to take a proposal seriously you generally need to tell them what it is. And you haven't, you focus on blaming the current system for your shortcomings.

Meh.

[Ocean1]

The solution is viable, but it'd be the beginning of yet another financial cycle unfortunately.

Co-ops? Oh yeah, old as the hills. Never heard of one that doesn't have an economic plan, though.

[mashman]

Now who's filling in blanks? I've never claimed to be happy with every aspect of our society.

And if you want people to take a proposal seriously you generally need to tell them what it is. And you haven't, you focus on blaming the current system for your shortcomings.

Meh.

Didn't think that you were, but you did say you're happy with the rules they are. You get the society that you pay for.

If people want to take the proposal seriously then they have to be serious about understanding the proposal. I have a reason for blaming the current system. I'm pretty damned sure we can do better.

[gwigs]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/uWSxzjyMNpU?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Global Wealth Inequality - What you never knew you never knew

[gwigs]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6vNCpGaxWno?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Culture In Decline.....

[Ocean1]

Your health dollar hard at work.... http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/9111852/Doctors-dine-out-on-9m-of-unlimited-food

[mashman]

Culture In Decline.....

Nice find... All a matter of making a single decision eh

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction. They may be summed up by the phrases:

1- It's completely impossible.
2- It's possible, but it's not worth doing.
3- I said it was a good idea all along.

[mashman]

Your health dollar hard at work.... http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/9111852/Doctors-dine-out-on-9m-of-unlimited-food

Meh. Dr's need feeding too.

[Ocean1]

Meh. Dr's need feeding too.

Aye, and there's no reason they can't pay for their own lunch like everyone else rather than siphoning it from the health budget.

[mashman]

Aye, and there's no reason they can't pay for their own lunch like everyone else rather than siphoning it from the health budget.

Awwwww I dunno, what's wrong with spending a little money on feeding doctors? They're life savers after all.

[gwigs]

Mmm politicians get free lunch dont they...and lots of other freebies too
Doctors deserve a free lunch especially with the hours they have work...
Rather give something to them than to Politicians..

[Ocean1]

Mmm politicians get free lunch dont they...and lots of other freebies too
Doctors deserve a free lunch especially with the hours they have work...
Rather give something to them than to Politicians..

Whereas most of the rest of us would rather the 9 million dollars was spent on public health, as was intended.

But perhaps you could track down those who fell off the bottom of the waiting lists and explain to them why junior doctors who make >$80/year spent their allocated budget on lunch.

[Scuba_Steve]

Whereas most of the rest of us would rather the 9 million dollars was spent on public health, as was intended.

But perhaps you could track down those who fell off the bottom of the waiting lists and explain to them why junior doctors who make >$80/year spent their allocated budget on lunch.

I'd rather see the dictators pay for their food before making the doctors pay for theirs, but yes this is an out of date rule back from when 1) the doctors worked extreme hours & 2) the food was hospital owned not privatised & thus was at cost not costly!

[gwigs]

Whereas most of the rest of us would rather the 9 million dollars was spent on public health, as was intended.

But perhaps you could track down those who fell off the bottom of the waiting lists and explain to them why junior doctors who make >$80/year spent their allocated budget on lunch.

Most of us , so you speak for most of us then ?..well not me for a start
Where does your authority come from to speak for most of us ?...
Out of your imagination me thinks...

[Banditbandit]

Whereas most of the rest of us would rather the 9 million dollars was spent on public health, as was intended.

But perhaps you could track down those who fell off the bottom of the waiting lists and explain to them why junior doctors who make >$80/year spent their allocated budget on lunch.

The article said "Junior doctors" not doctors - and they earn less than $80,000 - as well as working strange hours - so they eat at the hospital cafes ..

[avgas]

Whereas most of the rest of us would rather the 9 million dollars was spent on public health, as was intended.
Technically it still is.
Feed the doctors - they stay in the hospital - so an emergency resource is at hand - also means doctors don't rush home for dinner - so do overtime.

Unless you have a way to perform medical procedures without a doctor - I am more than willing to pay $9m for un-eating robots that perform such wonders.
But then I foresee no need for hospitals. Just insert $2 into the local vending machine for your medical needs.

Or we pay the doctors lunch, which they must consume at the hospital cafe, and when we get rushed there at 2am - we know there is a coffee fueled machine ready to help us.

[Ocean1]

I'd rather see the dictators pay for their food before making the doctors pay for theirs, but yes this is an out of date rule back from when 1) the doctors worked extreme hours & 2) the food was hospital owned not privatised & thus was at cost not costly!

Fine. Find out what “dictators” lunches cost and post it up.

And who makes the food ain’t relevant, who pays for it is.


Most of us , so you speak for most of us then ?..well not me for a start
Where does your authority come from to speak for most of us ?...
Out of your imagination me thinks...

So post up a poll. I’m picking a comfortable majority of taxpayers would rather doctors didn’t skim $9 million a year from their health taxes to pay for lunch, but if you’ve got evidence to the contrary let’s see it.


The article said "Junior doctors" not doctors - and they earn less than $80,000 - as well as working strange hours - so they eat at the hospital cafes ..

Yes, junior doctors. Do you know what that means? They’re journeymen, they've got their doctorate and they’re attached to an accredited training institution for a couple of years to practice on the public under supervision. That almost always means one of the larger DHB emergency departments. It also means they fall under the New Zealand resident doctors association, possibly the most virulent and militant union in the country.

And knowing a few of them I’d say their income ranges from $60k (basic wages) to $90k, plus a range of perks that’d make any politician blush.


Technically it still is.
Feed the doctors - they stay in the hospital - so an emergency resource is at hand - also means doctors don't rush home for dinner - so do overtime.

Unless you have a way to perform medical procedures without a doctor - I am more than willing to pay $9m for un-eating robots that perform such wonders.
But then I foresee no need for hospitals. Just insert $2 into the local vending machine for your medical needs.

Or we pay the doctors lunch, which they must consume at the hospital cafe, and when we get rushed there at 2am - we know there is a coffee fueled machine ready to help us.

Bollox, by no stretch of the imagination is a doctor’s lunch “health spending”. Under exactly the same logic nurses would be eligible for some $100 million of free lunches. All of the “public safety” arguments ignore one important fact: the rest of the world pays for their own lunch and there’s every reason to expect junior doctors to do the same, they get enough handouts as it is.

[gwigs]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1130610507]Fine. Find out what “dictators” lunches cost and post it up.





So post up a poll. I’m picking a comfortable majority of taxpayers would rather doctors didn’t skim $9 million a year from their health taxes to pay for lunch, but if you’ve got evidence to the contrary let’s see it.





You post up a poll ...youre the one who claims to speak for most of us...
And you can tell us what dictators lunches cost...:motu:

[Ocean1]

You post up a poll ...youre the one who claims to speak for most of us...
And you can tell us what dictators lunches cost...:motu:

That's not the way it works, dude, I don't have to prove your claims for you.

You're the one that's concerned about dictators lunch costs, you tell us why.

[gwigs]

That's not the way it works, dude, I don't have to prove your claims for you.

You're the one that's concerned about dictators lunch costs, you tell us why.
What claims...? I, m not a Dude either...

Yes you need to prove your claims that most of us agree with you otherwise you are talking crap as usual

[avgas]

Bollox, by no stretch of the imagination is a doctor’s lunch “health spending”. Under exactly the same logic nurses would be eligible for some $100 million of free lunches. All of the “public safety” arguments ignore one important fact: the rest of the world pays for their own lunch and there’s every reason to expect junior doctors to do the same, they get enough handouts as it is.
They will. Across the road. Or at home. Not near the hospital. Where people need doctors/nurses.
Because everyone should just work 40 hour weeks and buy their own lunches in your world.

You're not an accountant per chance?

Though in saying that - I like your thinking. I think it should be global policy. I will kick it off by ditching all my perks and asking for 40% boost in pay and 30% reduction in hours.

[Ocean1]

They will. Across the road. Or at home. Not near the hospital. Where people need doctors/nurses.

They're residents, that used to mean they virtually lived on site. Now it doesn't, and yet the old compensations for that remain. And I still haven't heard why nurses shouldn't be compensated similarly.


Because everyone should just work 40 hour weeks and buy their own lunches in your world.

As I said, residents don't live and work on site as they used to, there's not much unusual about their hours nowadays. I've got no problem with anyone working as many hours as they can agree with their employer. But yes, I have a problem with free lunches, they're a myth, and in this case the ones paying for it are missing out on some 9 million dollars worth of healthcare.


You're not an accountant per chance?

No, I'm someone who pays for his own fucking lunch.


Though in saying that - I like your thinking. I think it should be global policy. I will kick it off by ditching all my perks and asking for 40% boost in pay and 30% reduction in hours.

Go for it, if you can make it stick your employer obviously thinks your worth it. And it's a more honest measure of your worth, eh? Rather than an historic bevy of obsolete perks on top of a very respectable wage for what amounts to an apprentice.

[mashman]

As I said, residents don't live and work on site as they used to, there's not much unusual about their hours nowadays. I've got no problem with anyone working as many hours as they can agree with their employer. But yes, I have a problem with free lunches, they're a myth, and in this case the ones paying for it are missing out on some 9 million dollars worth of healthcare.

Coz it would go back into healthcare wouldn't it?

[Ocean1]

Coz it would go back into healthcare wouldn't it?

It hasn't ever been removed from the health budget.

[avgas]

They're residents, that used to mean they virtually lived on site. Now it doesn't, and yet the old compensations for that remain. And I still haven't heard why nurses shouldn't be compensated similarly.
Exactly. First they were not live-in-residents, but they hang around due to free food/coffee. Now you want to take that away - so you're in reality you supporting this change.
I would like to see the opposite happen. Hell give them free accommodation if they are next the hospital.
Put the workers near the coal face and they will do what is natural. Tell them to find their own means......and they do what is natural, which is eat/live AWAY from work.

I recently did a quick experiment at work. I sold coke via the fridge. $1 can. Nearest competition was 50m across the road @ $4 bottle. Effectively I am saving 15 minutes time per person. So say 4-5 man hours of productivity saved. I suspect this would be better with free coke - but not in a position to test that theory.
In a previous job - I shouted my teams 7am breakfast. Breakfast cost me about $50/day. I think I reclaimed about $500/day in productivity and overtime. So I have done the math here.

I wonder how much hospitals gain by having doctors eating in the mess hall - rather than in a nice cafe 30 minutes from site? I suspect you talk to the admin in a hospital - as your missing the peripheral benefits and concentrating on the $9M loss.

Hell even casinos give punters free food. Ever wonder why?

[mashman]

It hasn't ever been removed from the health budget.

Didn't say it had, but did ask if you thought the 9 million "saved" would go back into healthcare.

[Ocean1]

Exactly. First they were not live-in-residents, but they hang around due to free food/coffee. Now you want to take that away - so you're in reality you supporting this change.
I would like to see the opposite happen. Hell give them free accommodation if they are next the hospital.
Put the workers near the coal face and they will do what is natural. Tell them to find their own means......and they do what is natural, which is eat/live AWAY from work.


No. First they were live-in residents, not supposed to be off site and working long hrs and it made sense to include free meals as part of their remuneration. Many had free accommodation then too, all part of the deal whereby the public health service got relatively cheap services in exchange for training.

Hospitals still train the wee darlings, at a cost that makes the free lunch look like pocket lint, but they get a much, much higher hourly rate. They also get a wide range of perks that nobody’s supposed to notice when the wage round comes around again.

No, let’s have the costs out in the open so the taxpayers can see what the real costs are.


I recently did a quick experiment at work. I sold coke via the fridge. $1 can. Nearest competition was 50m across the road @ $4 bottle. Effectively I am saving 15 minutes time per person. So say 4-5 man hours of productivity saved. I suspect this would be better with free coke - but not in a position to test that theory.
In a previous job - I shouted my teams 7am breakfast. Breakfast cost me about $50/day. I think I reclaimed about $500/day in productivity and overtime. So I have done the math here.

I shout lunch for absolutely anyone working for me at the slightest excuse, it’s worth a lot just in goodwill. But it’s my money, and I sure as fuck wouldn’t be doing it if the guys were taking the piss with outdated perks every time their contract was due.



I wonder how much hospitals gain by having doctors eating in the mess hall - rather than in a nice cafe 30 minutes from site? I suspect you talk to the admin in a hospital - as your missing the peripheral benefits and concentrating on the $9M loss.

As it happens I talk to hospital administrators regularly. To a man/woman they seem to see it as a waste of money they have far better uses for and they see no benefit to the DHBs at all. From a big step back from the industry it sounds like it’s an irritant typical of their general annoyance at the high level of perks available to many professionals in the industry who often point to off-shore incomes as high by comparison.

[Ocean1]

Didn't say it had, but did ask if you thought the 9 million "saved" would go back into healthcare.

Yes, that's exactly what I think.

You think John's henchmen are hovering, waiting for that $9M to hit the balance sheets so they can siphon it off for Bellamy's?

[Scuba_Steve]

Yes, that's exactly what I think.

You think John's henchmen are hovering, waiting for that $9M to hit the balance sheets so they can siphon it off for Bellamy's?

Govt's already taken more money than the Health system can afford to give & somehow you don't think if another 9mil free'd up they wouldn't take that too?
You wanna save the tax payer money lets get rid of Govt perks, lets cap state sector CEO's & upper management, lets bring 'essential' services & infrastructure back in-house.

[mashman]

Yes, that's exactly what I think.

You think John's henchmen are hovering, waiting for that $9M to hit the balance sheets so they can siphon it off for Bellamy's?

Not at all. I'm sure the NZ govt doesn't believe in clawing back money that is being "wasted" and would plough it straight back from whence it came... most likely in the form of bonuses for the important people :blip:

[Ocean1]

Govt's already taken more money than the Health system can afford to give & somehow you don't think if another 9mil free'd up they wouldn't take that too?


Indeed?

When was the last time New Zealand's health budget was less than the previous year's?


You wanna save the tax payer money lets get rid of Govt perks, lets cap state sector CEO's & upper management, lets bring 'essential' services & infrastructure back in-house.

No problem with that at all.

Seems possible there'd be some spirited discussion about what was "essential" is all...

[Scuba_Steve]

Seems possible there'd be some spirited discussion about what was "essential" is all...

Well I consider anything "needed" in modern life "essential" so roads, power production & transport, sewage, water, footpaths, etc unsure about phone lines/fibre maybee take control of the lines but leave the Telcos private

this also includes the guys to look after & fix the above mentioned too.

[Banditbandit]

Yes, junior doctors. Do you know what that means? They’re journeymen, they've got their doctorate

No, I'm sorry - they have a bachelor's degre - they are a long way from a Doctorate ... medical Doctor is not he same as PhD ...


and they’re attached to an accredited training institution for a couple of years to practice on the public under supervision. That almost always means one of the larger DHB emergency departments. It also means they fall under the New Zealand resident doctors association, possibly the most virulent and militant union in the country.

:killingme: A middle class union the most militant ... Fell about laughing ...


And knowing a few of them I’d say their income ranges from $60k (basic wages) to $90k, plus a range of perks that’d make any politician blush.

See - rather than say "knowing a few .." I looked up the pay scale on the union website - it's $60 grand ... and junior doctors appear to be the most militant because DHBs are notorius for paying no more tan they have to ...



All of the “public safety” arguments ignore one important fact: the rest of the world pays for their own lunch

Do they now ... for real ?? Or just asking your keyboard ... the "rest of the world" is a fucking big place ... ever heard of Expense Accounts FFS ... asnd other wasys of having lunch paid for by work ...

[Banditbandit]

Go for it, if you can make it stick your employer obviously thinks your worth it. And it's a more honest measure of your worth, eh?

Isn't that exactly what the junior doctor's union has done ????


Rather than an historic bevy of obsolete perks on top of a very respectable wage for what amounts to an apprentice.

I love the spin you put on things - do you work for a PR company ???

The difference between your two statements is only a matter of perception - not of fact .. and there's a big difference between apprentices and junuior doctors ... apprentices receive on the job training .. junior doctors recieve four years of training before they are allowed on the job ...

[avgas]

Isn't that exactly what the junior doctor's union has done ????
Yep. But our bold fellow here thinks all the young things want to stay and work in NZ because the money is so good here.

I once had a shitty job and kept it for 9 months purely on the fact I got a holden ute for a work vehicle. I am sure the accountant thought my tire account was a big fat waste of money. My boss knew otherwise, and argued (until he left) that the only reason I did that shit job was due to the fact I had a cool car.

While I am not arguing doctors and nurses will stay due to good, close food........I am not going to discount it either. My 2am trips to Te Rapa were comforted slightly by the fact I drove a cool (at the time) ute.

I wouldn't dare go back on call again though - that ship (and its perks) have sailed. Fuck knows how doctors/nurses do it.

[Ocean1]

No, I'm sorry - they have a bachelor's degre - they are a long way from a Doctorate ... medical Doctor is not he same as PhD ...


I was aware.



:killingme: A middle class union the most militant ... Fell about laughing ...

You’re heavily into that class thing ain’t you?

I don’t give a fuck what you percieve their class to be, their union is as militant, grasping and inflexible as any in the country.


See - rather than say "knowing a few .." I looked up the pay scale on the union website - it's $60 grand ... and junior doctors appear to be the most militant because DHBs are notorius for paying no more tan they have to ...

Which is exactly what I said. See, I do know a few, so I didn’t have to research it to say exactly what you’ve just found. Except that $60k is the base rate, look again, they can and do earn way better than that.

DHBs notorious for not paying more than they have to? Then why are they paying for trainee doctor’s lunch? Do try to be consistent old chap.


Do they now ... for real ?? Or just asking your keyboard ... the "rest of the world" is a fucking big place ... ever heard of Expense Accounts FFS ... asnd other wasys of having lunch paid for by work ...

I have indeed, I have one myself. I also pay for it. You’ve got a problem telling the difference don’t you?

Your fucking big world does have an unfortunate quantity of parasitic lunch eaters I must admit, you could probably do better listing them if you got off your class grandstand.

One parasite at a time, eh? Get the junior doctors paying for their own lunch, fuck me the taxpayer still pays for most of their training, ain’t that generous enough?

[Ocean1]

Isn't that exactly what the junior doctor's union has done ????


Quite the opposite, they're insisting on keeping perks the rest of the industry gave up years ago AND they continue to bleat about their "low" income. They've been offered cash alternatives to most of their perks every time their contract's been negotiated for years, but it'd mean their real income would be publicly obvious.


I love the spin you put on things - do you work for a PR company ???


No spin here sunshine, although I can see that someone as class sensitive as yourself migh feel particularly exposed in that regard.


The difference between your two statements is only a matter of perception - not of fact .. and there's a big difference between apprentices and junuior doctors ... apprentices receive on the job training .. junior doctors recieve four years of training before they are allowed on the job ...

You've been reading again, haven't you?

So, resident doctors get no training or supervision eh? So... why aren't they out earning their keep in the real world as GPs or consultants?

[Banditbandit]

See .. I think you have made the mistake of thinking that I accept that the junior doctors should get their free lunches ... I'd be interested for you to show me where I said that ...

Yes, my world does include free lunches for my staff .. I PAY FOR THEM ... from my own pocket ... (sorry, yes, I might not have told you I do manage staff) ... I do not expect any employer to pay for lunch for me or my staff ...

I have shown no support or opposition to the free lunches - I have simply attacked the holes in your position - of which there are many ...


You've been reading again, haven't you?

Yeah .. I do that all the time - I go crazy without something to read .... currently I'm reading Dumas' The Three Musketeers .. I've just finished Tolstoy's War and Peace .. tho' why the fuck I read that I have no idea ... I read Anna Karenina a while ago and swore I'd never read Tolstoy again .. next I plan to read Stephen King's new book ...


So, resident doctors get no training or supervision eh?

Did I say that ??? ... show me where I said that ...

I think you should enter the Olympics - you'd be a star at Jumping to Conclusions ...

[Ocean1]

Yep. But our bold fellow here thinks all the young things want to stay and work in NZ because the money is so good here.

Again, let's see all of their income as wages and we'd have no problem making that comparison, eh?

As for the greener grass? Any idea how much most of the rest of the world's doctors pay in public liability insurance? It can easilly be more than a NZ consultant earns. Do you know how many institutional doctors in NZ are off-shore imports? Rather a lot. The grass here is plenty green enough for doctors I assure you.



While I am not arguing doctors and nurses will stay due to good, close food........I am not going to discount it either. My 2am trips to Te Rapa were comforted slightly by the fact I drove a cool (at the time) ute.

I wouldn't dare go back on call again though - that ship (and its perks) have sailed. Fuck knows how doctors/nurses do it.

Meh. The lunch money is peanuts compared to some of the undeclared income they make, I just find the "poor me" posturing smells bad when it's carrying all that bullshit.

Edit: and you've answered your own question I think, Nurses get bugger all perks, a modest income and still do the hard yards. They're not the country's most trusted profession for nothing.

[Ocean1]

See .. I think you have made the mistake of thinking that I accept that the junior doctors should get their free lunches ... I'd be interested for you to show me where I said that ...

Yes, my world does include free lunches for my staff .. I PAY FOR THEM ... from my own pocket ... (sorry, yes, I might not have told you I do manage staff) ... I do not expect any employer to pay for lunch for me or my staff ...

I have shown no support or opposition to the free lunches - I have simply attacked the holes in your position - of which there are many ...

Well you're wrong. Again.

And you're not doing a very good job of agreeing with me.

[Banditbandit]

Well you're wrong. Again.

And you're not doing a very good job of agreeing with me.

Hey ... who says I agree with you ... I have never stated a position on the issue ...

If you really must know - I am appalled that the junior doctors get free lunches to the extent that millions of dollars are diverted from the health budget ... fuck - my taxes are feeding those cunts !!! My version of socialism does not include free food for well paid arseholes !!!

I just really hate agreeing with you ... it doesn't come naturally ...

[Ocean1]

Hey ... who says I agree with you ... I have never stated a position on the issue ...

If you really must know - I am appalled that the junior doctors get free lunches to the extent that millions of dollars are diverted from the health budget ... fuck - my taxes are feeding those cunts !!! My version of socialism does not include free food for well paid arseholes !!!

I just really hate agreeing with you ... it doesn't come naturally ...

I don't begrudge them their free lunch because they're rich pricks, I just don't like the dishonesty of claiming to be poorly paid when the actual cash is nowhere near the whole story. The RDA need to be taken down a peg or seven, they're far too full of shit for the industry's good.

[Brian d marge]

I just really hate agreeing with you ... it doesn't come naturally ...

Dude I just gave him green bling , how do you think I feel !

BTW I swap you war and p for Heyak .... or one copy of cosmopolitan


Stephen

[Banditbandit]

I don't begrudge them their free lunch because they're rich pricks, I just don't like the dishonesty of claiming to be poorly paid when the actual cash is nowhere near the whole story. The RDA need to be taken down a peg or seven, they're far too full of shit for the industry's good.

Intreresting ... we come to the same answer by very very different routes ... I don't like the idea because the well paid pricks are sucking at the publc trough ...

But see, on the classic confrontation between the bourgoisie and the proletariat the bourgoisie have won ... and the workers are screwed ... the battle has now moved to the middle class - the ruling elite are attacking the middle classes ... which means that we see action from the middle class unions - the teachers, the nurses, the junior doctors ...

And if you don't think that is true - then just think of Roger Douglas and Ruth Richardson - the tools of the ruling elite attacked the middle classes (Richardson and co finished off the proletariat with the removal of compulsory union memebrship and the CEA bill .. created a workforce totally at their beck and call ... ) Remember all the public service restructuring and the private sector restrucuring which put lots of middle New ZEalanders out of jobs in the 1980s and 90s ...


To me it is all symptomatic of late period capitalism and the need of the ruliogn classs to gain domination over society for their own benefit ...

The middle classes have always seen that their interests liwe with the ruling casses - and they are lead to beleive that by the ruling classes. It's the promise of "you can be rich like us if you do what we tell you ..."

But the middle clasees are decieved, because the ruling classes only act in their own best interest .. and the recent history of GodZone proves just that - the rulng classes are crapping on the middle classes - and people like you are sucked in by their propoganda ... and have become their tool



Dude I just gave him green bling , how do you think I feel !

BTW I swap you war and p for Heyak .... or one copy of cosmopolitan


Stephen

Sorry - I read and e-book edition of Warren Peace .. and I wouldn't recommend Tolstoy - especially that - a boring soap opera plot (like Anna Karenina) with a harsh and strange critique of the contemporaneous historians who wrote about Napolean, intermingled with Tolstoy's bullshit philosophy on the need for war and how to win one, contrasted with the Russian fuck ups on the battlefield ... I have no idea why peopel think Tolstoy is great literatuere - apart from the fact he is Russian ... I'd rather read Chekhov or Turgenev .. even Goncharov's Oblomov is a better read - and nothing happens in that at all ...

But which Hayek ? The Road to Serfdom? Or something else? What else might you trade?

I'd like this one - but she's worth more than Warren Peace


<img src="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XM5wccP8RP0/UaNIJdjncaI/AAAAAAAAArc/NXOrDpFHaWU/s1600/salma+hayek-Idea.jpg" width="400px"/>

[Banditbandit]

!BTW I swap you war and p for Heyak .... or one copy of cosmopolitan


Stephen

OK ... it took the morning coffee for that to sink in ... Naaa mate - for a copy of Cosmopolitan ?? I'd be ripping you off ...

[avgas]

Meh. The lunch money is peanuts compared to some of the undeclared income they make, I just find the "poor me" posturing smells bad when it's carrying all that bullshit.

Edit: and you've answered your own question I think, Nurses get bugger all perks, a modest income and still do the hard yards. They're not the country's most trusted profession for nothing.
Possibly. But to be honest my perks are peanuts to what I get paid - but money ain't everything. It's nice to be looked after - even if I have money to do these things myself. Simply getting paid more just cheapens the deal I feel. Even though financially it is better for me - company cars and fuel cards have kept me in jobs where a "vehicle pay packages" have lost me. Could be convenience (not my car so not my problem). But don't know. Likewise I was always early to work when I got breakfast - even though I could buy the bloody stuff myself.

Never said Nurses shouldn't get it - far from it. I think it should be for all hospital staff, rather than taken away. This is why I have never been a fan of unions. They are always "Look at this waste of money and these poor sods get nothing, lets remove it from the fat pigs" rather than trying to make the perk big enough for all involved.

If people thought more positive about things, and think about how things could be improved rather than trimmed down......we would take steps forward.
As many have said here - this is not a cut people are interested in. There is potential to grow this to something positive, keeping all hospital staff in the hospital (independant of pay).
Cut something non-usefull. Like paying people to talk in the house.......away from public opinion. Hell you could replace the beehive with a facebook page where people liked different things and that would get funding. We have to stop living the 1200's. People are no longer dim, we no longer are required to elect leaders to make decisions for us.

If politicians need to talk in private about matters - they are never going to be ideas that sit well with their constituents.
Cut the crap, leave the food.

[mashman]

Private equity firms are making millions out of failing children’s care homes - yet care for vulnerable is 'unacceptable' (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-private-equity-firms-are-making-millions-out-of-failing-childrens-care-homes--yet-care-for-vulnerable-is-unacceptable-8815656.html) :facepalm:

[unstuck]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/D3di8Vw15XY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:Punk::Punk:

[avgas]

Good shit. Nice feel good story. Too often people blur the lines and join the dots as they see fit.

[carbonhed]

Here's a little cost analysis of decarbonisation schemes using the UN's own figures.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/Zw5Lda06iK0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Amazingly now the IPCC is dialing back it's expected warming rates the new cost benefit ratio is 100 to 1 :laugh:

[mashman]

Here's a little cost analysis of decarbonisation schemes using the UN's own figures.

Amazingly now the IPCC is dialing back it's expected warming rates the new cost benefit ratio is 100 to 1 :laugh:

Who would have thought that money would stop us from being proactive eh <_<.

[mashman]

I dunno... some, well an awful lot, of privileged people just don't get it do they... well, not even privileged.

Dutch King Willem-Alexander declares the end of the welfare state (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/dutch-king-willemalexander-declares-the-end-of-the-welfare-state-8822421.html)... I can't wait to see the fallout of this.

Exclusive: 50,000 people are now facing eviction after bedroom tax (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-50000-people-are-now-facing-eviction-after-bedroom-tax-8825074.html)... :facepalm: the tax is moronic and is indicative of moronic thought processes that are regressive and not progressive.

[carbonhed]

Who would have thought that money would stop us from being proactive eh <_<.

Awesome! I promise to pay future generations $100,000 to compensate for part of any damage... you owe me $5,000,000 now. Cash preferred.

[mashman]

Awesome! I promise to pay future generations $100,000 to compensate for part of any damage... you owe me $5,000,000 now. Cash preferred.

Always a financial solution eh... so disappointing.

[puddytat]

Some good news for a change......

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/halfway-to-climate-change-catastrophe-total-amount-of-carbon-burnt-since-the-industrial-revolution-must-not-exceed-one-trillion-tonnes-say-scientists-8827713.html

[Scuba_Steve]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYfDTsjwE58

[Ocean1]

Always a financial solution eh... so disappointing.

Well, y'know, for someone who thinks money is plucked out of thin air the world is always going to be a disappointing place.

And, of course that’s the world’s fault, eh? it really should be organised so you don't have to work so fucking hard.

[Ocean1]

Some good news for a change......

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/halfway-to-climate-change-catastrophe-total-amount-of-carbon-burnt-since-the-industrial-revolution-must-not-exceed-one-trillion-tonnes-say-scientists-8827713.html

What's good about it? Isn't it just another estimate pretty much the same as the last several years' worth from that source?

A source, I might add that took a pretty sever battering on the credibility front a year or so ago.

[Brian d marge]

Well, y'know, for someone who thinks money is plucked out of thin air the world is always going to be a disappointing place.

And, of course that’s the world’s fault, eh? it really should be organised so you don't have to work so fucking hard.

Where does money come from then ?

Stephen

[mashman]

Well, y'know, for someone who thinks money is plucked out of thin air the world is always going to be a disappointing place.

And, of course that’s the world’s fault, eh? it really should be organised so you don't have to work so fucking hard.

I know that money is plucked out of thin air, get it right. It's a small number people that are disappointing, the world is full of awesome people for the main part.

No, just a small number of people, keep up. Why won't people work hard? Doh, sorry, I should know that you measure the world and it's people against your yardstick... which, as it turns out, looks to be 3cm.

[Ocean1]

Where does money come from then ?

Stephen

Well I can't speak for your money, but mine comes from my clients, who give it to me in exchange for the work I do for them.

Yes, yes I know that's not what you mean, you don't like the fact that someone else is in control of issuing currency and you don't like the way they do it.

But none of that makes a tiny little bit of difference to the fact that it's primary function is as a unit of exchange, a function it manages perfectly well. Nor does it make a jot of difference that a few like to believe that because the evel bankers simply print the stuff without actually "earning" it then that somehow means that they shouldn't have to earn it either. A belief that, in order to protect themselves from blame for their lack, naturally extends as far as an irrational dislike and overwhelming jealousy of those that somehow manage to do OK simply by actually producing shit that others want to buy.

They could print their own money and set up in competition, of course. If their clients could be brought to have the confidence in their business that most do in the existing versions. Or vote for people who say they will arrange things differently, the way they want. They wouldn't , of course, because most of the alternatives simply don't work, but at least it's an option that stands a slim chance of getting their way. Or they could simply admit that their net worth is, in fact a roughly accurate reflection of their value to their client/s. Either way they should probably also give the evel banker slash IMF conspiracy a break, Stephen.

[Ocean1]

I know that money is plucked out of thin air, get it right. It's a small number people that are disappointing, the world is full of awesome people for the main part.

And it must be exceptionally difficult for you, having to range so far in search for the nescessary recipients of your blame for your own disappointments.


No, just a small number of people, keep up. Why won't people work hard? Doh, sorry, I should know that you measure the world and it's people against your yardstick... which, as it turns out, looks to be 3cm.

I don't have any problem with people that don't work hard at all. The problems start when they think they're worth more than the rest of the world does. Even then I don't have a problem with them, and neither does the rest of the world. In fact the ones with all the problems are invariably the ones that reckon they're worth so much more than they produce.

[mashman]

And it must be exceptionally difficult for you, having to range so far in search for the nescessary recipients of your blame for your own disappointments.

No difficulty at all, it's pretty obvious who the culprits are... however the blameless outweigh the blameable by some considerable number, so blame has already been assigned and my disappointment is fleeting as it is expected.



I don't have any problem with people that don't work hard at all. The problems start when they think they're worth more than the rest of the world does. Even then I don't have a problem with them, and neither does the rest of the world. In fact the ones with all the problems are invariably the ones that reckon they're worth so much more than they produce.

:rofl: as I said, 3cm.

[puddytat]

What's good about it? Isn't it just another estimate pretty much the same as the last several years' worth from that source?

A source, I might add that took a pretty sever battering on the credibility front a year or so ago.

It was an attempt at gallows humour.....ya know, like its good news that we're only 1/2 way there....
no doubt its all a conspiracy eh.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Well I can't speak for your money, but mine comes from my clients, who give it to me in exchange for the work I do for them.

Yes, yes I know that's not what you mean, you don't like the fact that someone else is in control of issuing currency and you don't like the way they do it.

But none of that makes a tiny little bit of difference to the fact that it's primary function is as a unit of exchange, a function it manages perfectly well. Nor does it make a jot of difference that a few like to believe that because the evel bankers simply print the stuff without actually "earning" it then that somehow means that they shouldn't have to earn it either. A belief that, in order to protect themselves from blame for their lack, naturally extends as far as an irrational dislike and overwhelming jealousy of those that somehow manage to do OK simply by actually producing shit that others want to buy.

They could print their own money and set up in competition, of course. If their clients could be brought to have the confidence in their business that most do in the existing versions. Or vote for people who say they will arrange things differently, the way they want. They wouldn't , of course, because most of the alternatives simply don't work, but at least it's an option that stands a slim chance of getting their way. Or they could simply admit that their net worth is, in fact a roughly accurate reflection of their value to their client/s. Either way they should probably also give the evel banker slash IMF conspiracy a break, Stephen.


The reason you don't understand the problem is that you don't understand what money is. $1 of paper currency = between $9 and $500 of debt. That is all money is. DEBT

[Ocean1]

It was an attempt at gallows humour.....ya know, like its good news that we're only 1/2 way there....
no doubt its all a conspiracy eh.

Ah, I see. I gave up saying shit I don't mean years ago, people start believing it.

As for conspiracies, there very well might be some around. You'd never know from looking at shit on the internet, though, people there say shit they don't mean all the time. Can't trust the fuckers.

[Ocean1]

The reason you don't understand the problem is that you don't understand what money is. $1 of paper currency = between $9 and $500 of debt. That is all money is. DEBT

I understand the problem tolerably well, dude, but it's not a problem I actually have.

Possibly because I don't have any debt.

Does that mean all my money is going to disappear into thin air where it came from?

[mashman]

It was an attempt at gallows humour.....ya know, like its good news that we're only 1/2 way there....

No way :shit:

[Brian d marge]

Well I can't speak for your money, but mine comes from my clients, who give it to me in exchange for the work I do for them.

Yes, yes I know that's not what you mean, you don't like the fact that someone else is in control of issuing currency and you don't like the way they do it.

But none of that makes a tiny little bit of difference to the fact that it's primary function is as a unit of exchange, a function it manages perfectly well. Nor does it make a jot of difference that a few like to believe that because the evel bankers simply print the stuff without actually "earning" it then that somehow means that they shouldn't have to earn it either. A belief that, in order to protect themselves from blame for their lack, naturally extends as far as an irrational dislike and overwhelming jealousy of those that somehow manage to do OK simply by actually producing shit that others want to buy.

They could print their own money and set up in competition, of course. If their clients could be brought to have the confidence in their business that most do in the existing versions. Or vote for people who say they will arrange things differently, the way they want. They wouldn't , of course, because most of the alternatives simply don't work, but at least it's an option that stands a slim chance of getting their way. Or they could simply admit that their net worth is, in fact a roughly accurate reflection of their value to their client/s. Either way they should probably also give the evel banker slash IMF conspiracy a break, Stephen.
Not near a pc , so excuse the lack of layout.
Next time you buy a motorcycle , you feed my family , ta.

Yes I dont like monetary system its flawed at the most basic level.

As for starting a new system. it happens all the time. but strangle they tend to get shut down . Bitcoin for example, how long before that gets shut down? they are trying .....

As for a conspiracy, I prefer the words of Joseph Shiglitz ( sp ) who said , while it may not be a full blown conspiracy, Money in politics has forced an agenda on the people ( ill add the quote late)

Here is were I start getting bent out of shape , as "money " ( as in people) does not care ....about me , the environment etc. Only incentive......

Stephen

ill edit this later , when Im near a computer.....

[Banditbandit]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/p320x320/971649_569990209704259_1729163894_n.jpg

[unstuck]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/WSIUf2hD6Io" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:Punk::Punk:

[mashman]

Senate advances US budget bill, shutdown threat remains (http://news.yahoo.com/senate-leader-eyes-sunday-scrap-over-govt-shutdown-115108833.html)

"This is just the beginning," vowed Senator Jeff Sessions. "We will not allow this country to socialize medicine."

The phrase has not been invented that can convey quite how idiotic and pathetic these so called human beings are. Bring on the tidal waves.

[Brian d marge]

Senate advances US budget bill, shutdown threat remains (http://news.yahoo.com/senate-leader-eyes-sunday-scrap-over-govt-shutdown-115108833.html)

"This is just the beginning," vowed Senator Jeff Sessions. "We will not allow this country to socialize medicine."

The phrase has not been invented that can convey quite how idiotic and pathetic these so called human beings are. Bring on the tidal waves.

raise the debt ceiling , print a few more dollars .... be fine .

Getting out of dodge might seem a good idea hahahahahaa

Stephen

[mashman]

raise the debt ceiling , print a few more dollars .... be fine .

Getting out of dodge might seem a good idea hahahahahaa

Stephen

Aye... it's worked up to now, what could possibly go wrong.

nah, they've got guns and no one will come to rob a house with guns... unless they've got guns of course. Oh, hang on.

[Brian d marge]

Aye... it's worked up to now, what could possibly go wrong.

nah, they've got guns and no one will come to rob a house with guns... unless they've got guns of course. Oh, hang on.

I gave my house back to the bank

that fooled em !

Stephen

[mashman]

I gave my house back to the bank

that fooled em !

Stephen

Lucky you had that luxury ;)

Young people `leave state care homeless' (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/19130283/young-people-leave-state-care-homeless/)

"Dr Smith said there was no definition of homelessness but a recent analysis identified 8500 people under 15 with "severely inadequate housing"."

What a wanker.

[Brian d marge]

Requiem for Detroit

Says it all really

Stephen

Ps , plese dont use wanking and Dr smith in the same sentence. One ruins it for the other.

[mashman]

Requiem for Detroit

Says it all really

Stephen

Ps , plese dont use wanking and Dr smith in the same sentence. One ruins it for the other.

Even right whingers need their fantasy outlet... don't be so repressive man.

[puddytat]

N0 doubt about it eh.....must be a conspiracy
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/28/climate-change-denial-is-cultural-not-scientific/

[mashman]

N0 doubt about it eh.....must be a conspiracy
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/28/climate-change-denial-is-cultural-not-scientific/

Trees are a carbon sink. Check.
We cut down about 80,000 hectares per day. Check
Humans concrete huge areas where trees once grew. Check
Humans don't affect the environment. Che... hang on, I might need to think about that for a while.

And that's just 1 thing.

[Ocean1]

Trees are a carbon sink. Check.
We cut down about 80,000 hectares per day. Check
Humans concrete huge areas where trees once grew. Check
Humans don't affect the environment. Che... hang on, I might need to think about that for a while.

And that's just 1 thing.

Thought you weren't susceptible to political propaganda.

Or is socialist propaganda all kosher?

[mashman]

N0 doubt about it eh.....must be a conspiracy
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/28/climate-change-denial-is-cultural-not-scientific/


Thought you weren't susceptible to political propaganda.

Or is socialist propaganda all kosher?

Are you really suggesting that the above is propaganda? Which bit doesn't sit well with you? See, I reckon it's the bit where it would involve having to consider other people.

[Ocean1]

Are you really suggesting that the above is propaganda? Which bit doesn't sit well with you? See, I reckon it's the bit where it would involve having to consider other people.

Ah, no, it's the fact that it's an opinion piece from a rabid socialist blogsite.

Didn't you notice?

[mashman]

Ah, no, it's the fact that it's an opinion piece from a rabid socialist blogsite.

Didn't you notice?

Oh you poor thing.

No. I read it for the subject matter, whether I agree with the opinion or not comes a distinct second. FYI, if it had have been a right whinge blog, my answer would have been exactly the same.

[ellipsis]

...my right wing hurts a lot these days and my left wing flops around a lot when I put it under pressure...age is a definite two edged sword...

[Ocean1]

No. I read it for the subject matter, whether I agree with the opinion or not comes a distinct second.

I tend not to waste my time reading anything from politically influenced or demonstrably extremist sources, the content's usually neither believable nor reliable.

Explains why much of your drivel looks to have come straight from Dr Seuss, though.




FYI, if it had have been a right whinge blog, my answer would have been exactly the same.

Didn't notice any answer.

But, then I tend not to waste my time reading anything from politically influenced or demonstrably extremist sources, the content's usually neither believable nor reliable.

[Ocean1]

...my right wing hurts a lot these days and my left wing flops around a lot when I put it under pressure...age is a definite two edged sword...

That'll be the result of the right wing having to do all the work the left one flops around failing to do.

[mashman]

I tend not to waste my time reading anything from politically influenced or demonstrably extremist sources, the content's usually neither believable nor reliable.

Explains why much of your drivel looks to have come straight from Dr Seuss, though.

Didn't notice any answer.

But, then I tend not to waste my time reading anything from politically influenced or demonstrably extremist sources, the content's usually neither believable nor reliable.

At least your hypocrisy is consistent.

[Brian d marge]

Stupid builders

Stephen

[carbonhed]

I love the bit where they whine about the Koch brothers putting 10's of millions of dollars into climate change denial... Greenpeace on their own would dwarf that, on their own... per annum, every annum. All of the money in this argument is in Big Green's hands... and they're still losing. Pisses them off no end.

ETA. Bomber Bradbury! What fucking goober posted that dickwad's thoughts on climate change! Bomber fucking Bradbury can suck my dick... I've got more knowledge on climate change in my little finger than that fuckwit would have in a thousand lifetimes... rant over.

[mashman]

Cleanup on aisle 3 please, mainly saliva but some weird white stuff that might need a hazmat suit.

[mashman]

The good ole UK. (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/sep/29/thousands-protest-manchester-austerity)

"Austerity is having a devastating effect on our communities and services, with 21,000 NHS jobs lost over the last three months alone. The NHS is one of Britain's finest achievements and we will not allow ministers to destroy, through cuts and privatisation, what has taken generations to build."

[puddytat]

No doubt this is socialist bullshit too....why bees are disappearing
http://www.ted.com/talks/marla_spivak_why_bees_are_disappearing.html


so's this....http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/28/ipcc-climate-change-deniers

you poor self centered fucks

[puddytat]

Even more bullshit.....organic of course
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/30/multi-lateral-work-on-food-security-or-secret-trade-and-investment-deals-for-corporations-which-way-nz/

[mashman]

No doubt this is socialist bullshit too....why bees are disappearing
http://www.ted.com/talks/marla_spivak_why_bees_are_disappearing.html

so's this....http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/28/ipcc-climate-change-deniers

you poor self centered fucks


Even more bullshit.....organic of course
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/30/multi-lateral-work-on-food-security-or-secret-trade-and-investment-deals-for-corporations-which-way-nz/

Some fuckers just don't get it eh. It's always somebody else's problem and it always raises a smile that the ideology of the right whinge seems to have more in common with what they deem to be socialism i.e. taking what belongs to someone else in order to feather their nest. Hypocrites. Friedman and his ilk has a lot to answer for.

[mashman]

Feeding homeless to be banned by Tory-run Westminster council (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/feeding-homeless-to-be-banned-by-tory-run-westminster-113433)... WTF!

"Westminster council, one of the richest in the land, wants to bring in a bylaw making it an offence to “give out food for free”, punishable by fines."

[unstuck]

WTF!

"Westminster council, one of the richest in the land, wants to bring in a bylaw making it an offence to “give out food for free”, punishable by fines."

Sounds like a good idea to me, as long as they are going to implement some sort of SELF help programs. Teach a man to fish and all that. A lot of these people are there by choice because they get stuff handed out to them, teach them how to fend for themselves I say.:msn-wink:

[avgas]

No doubt this is socialist bullshit too....why bees are disappearing
http://www.ted.com/talks/marla_spivak_why_bees_are_disappearing.html
Nothing new. Think NZ is a world leader of being green.

We sell this : http://www.zespri.com/zespri-kiwifruit/zespri-kiwifruit-products/products-zespri-organic.html

But it only accounts for 1% of our export market.

The reason is we are addicted to using this : http://www.nufarm.co.nz/Assets/23799/1/Hi-Cane_20L_Label_Website_INDENT.pdf
to get a good yield every year.

This makes us dirtier than the South Americans or even the Chinese who are banned from using HiCane.

[mashman]

Sounds like a good idea to me, as long as they are going to implement some sort of SELF help programs. Teach a man to fish and all that. A lot of these people are there by choice because they get stuff handed out to them, teach them how to fend for themselves I say.:msn-wink:

Can you not read or somefink? Did they not mention that the "help" programs are losing funding too. Better off shooting them as blood washes away and the strays can make use of the corpse.

[Brian d marge]

Nothing new. Think NZ is a world leader of being green.

We sell this : http://www.zespri.com/zespri-kiwifruit/zespri-kiwifruit-products/products-zespri-organic.html

But it only accounts for 1% of our export market.

The reason is we are addicted to using this : http://www.nufarm.co.nz/Assets/23799/1/Hi-Cane_20L_Label_Website_INDENT.pdf
to get a good yield every year.

This makes us dirtier than the South Americans or even the Chinese who are banned from using HiCane.

kill those dirty little bees .....

288094

nz Exports

Stephen

[blue rider]

interesting read
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/30/1242221/-The-Return-of-the-19th-Century

[Ocean1]

Can you not read or somefink? Did they not mention that the "help" programs are losing funding too. Better off shooting them as blood washes away and the strays can make use of the corpse.

Free lunches don't constitute self help. You missed that SELF bit, didn't you?

I can just see you, there, getting all sweaty and breathless just thinking about free shit. It's a myth.

[blue rider]

Sounds like a good idea to me, as long as they are going to implement some sort of SELF help programs. Teach a man to fish and all that. A lot of these people are there by choice because they get stuff handed out to them, teach them how to fend for themselves I say.:msn-wink:

ah i see a business opportunity here...the sales of bootstraps should be going good? No? oh. kai then.

[mashman]

Switzerland to vote on $2,800 monthly ‘basic income’ for adults (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/switzerland-to-vote-on--2-800-monthly-%E2%80%98basic-income%E2%80%99-minimum-for-adults-181937885.html) could you imagine this in NZ. bwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaa... I almost wee'd.

BUT WAIT, there's more :killingme

"For example, on November 24th, the country will vote on a separate measure that would limit executive pay to the same amount paid to a company’s lowest paid staff member.". The response is priceless.

[avgas]

Over here don't we call that "living wage" that people keep protesting about.

I worked out that way back when I was a poor student my annual income was $12,000 year. So I don't know what the people working at Macca's are complaining about. Clearly the problem isnt money - its the fact they can't afford a house. Sleep in your car's then buddy!

[Brian d marge]

hows this for stupid
US President Barack Obama will nominate Federal Reserve Vice-Chair Janet Yellen to be the next head of the US central bank on Wednesday, according to a White House official.

Now anyone with half a brain who can grasp "FIAT MONEY" how the fk can they go on to have such a "stellar " career?


Stephen

[carbonhed]

Scary bananas :-

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/4zJn4gxCx3c" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Ocean1]

Scary bananas :-

Oh hold on now, you can't go comparing actual numbers when it comes to the climate scare industry dude!

What are you thinking? You just assume a self righteousness attitude, collect few buzzwords, a light smattering of tangentially related facts, a bunch of opinion and churn the fuck outa them.

[mashman]

Oh hold on now, you can't go comparing actual numbers when it comes to the climate scare industry dude!

What are you thinking? You just assume a self righteousness attitude, collect few buzzwords, a light smattering of tangentially related facts, a bunch of opinion and churn the fuck outa them.

So both sides end up choosing that which they prefer. Can someone just tell me the truth for a change?

[Ocean1]

So both sides end up choosing that which they prefer. Can someone just tell me the truth for a change?

Newsflash: So do you.

What, again?

[puddytat]

the truth is......"conforming to fact or reality"

[mashman]

Newsflash: So do you.

What, again?

That may well be a newsflash for you.

http://hateandanger.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/george-orwell-the-further-a-society-drifts-from-truth-the-more-it-will-hate-those-who-speak-it.jpg

[mashman]

New benefit rules come into force tomorrow (http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/19370605/new-benefit-riles-come-in-force-tomorrow/)... you'll get off lighter if you start a business and rip people off for millions. Aim high guys.

[mashman]

'De-Americanised' world needed after US shutdown: China media (http://news.yahoo.com/americanised-world-needed-us-shutdown-china-media-053014967.html)... new world order eh. Global currency too... and the Americans vetoed it? I wonder if they'll reconsider given JPMorgan's Dimon on US default: 'You don't want to know' (http://news.yahoo.com/jpmorgans-dimon-us-default-dont-want-know-183434960.html). Silly people.

[puddytat]

China thinking of calling in its debt?....

[Scuba_Steve]

China thinking of calling in its debt?....

That would amuse me immensely :devil2:

[puddytat]

That would amuse me immensely :devil2:

Schadenfreude eh!!:woohoo::violin:
wonder how they're affording to keep paying the rent & paying the aid, to their overlords in the Holyland.....

[Brian d marge]

'De-Americanised' world needed after US shutdown: China media (http://news.yahoo.com/americanised-world-needed-us-shutdown-china-media-053014967.html)... new world order eh. Global currency too... and the Americans vetoed it? I wonder if they'll reconsider given JPMorgan's Dimon on US default: 'You don't want to know' (http://news.yahoo.com/jpmorgans-dimon-us-default-dont-want-know-183434960.html). Silly people.
Hahahahaaaaaaaa
All I need now is a hunting stick ....

Stephen

Shyt ,,,,,,,I paid me house off ,,,, bugger it could have been free

Doh .....

[Brian d marge]

Len Brown knows the score

Stephen

[jonbuoy]

That may well be a newsflash for you.



From now on I want you all to call me Chelsea!

[mashman]

Robert J. Shiller - Nobel Prize for Economics. Oi, Bob, I've got one for you to look over ;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwhUN42BGE8

[Brian d marge]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/QPKKQnijnsM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

got me some money to

Stephen

[mashman]

Non-Market left leaning libertarians eh. Who woulda thunk it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjHTrwCstcM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[unstuck]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1380559_730141193680328_1072417340_n.jpg

[blue rider]

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1848433/the-ocean-is-broken/?cs=12


and fukushima is leaking like a sieve...

move along
nothing to see here

look over there
shiny objects
bootstraps
n'shit

[Brian d marge]

our Media says everything Will be ok by the next olympics

[mashman]

our Media says everything Will be ok by the next olympics

Awesome... and NZ will pickup dozens more gold eh, eh, eh.

[mashman]

http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1848433/the-ocean-is-broken/?cs=12


and fukushima is leaking like a sieve...

move along
nothing to see here

look over there
shiny objects
bootstraps
n'shit

"But they said they'd calculated that the environmental damage from burning the fuel to do that job would be worse than just leaving the debris there." = Too hard basket or simply not enough of a shit being given?

[blue rider]

"But they said they'd calculated that the environmental damage from burning the fuel to do that job would be worse than just leaving the debris there." = Too hard basket or simply not enough of a shit being given?

i actually believe that the effort would be so great that it might not be "environmentally" friendly, aka to costly the fuel.
c ause we still don't have ships that run on solar energy, cause thats in the too hard basket, and in the can't be bothered basket.

lets go fracking and tar sanding instead.
:brick:

[blue rider]

our Media says everything Will be ok by the next olympics

yeah, sure tui