The firearm thread

[ManDownUnder]

I have the Hornady book of reloading and would like another one or two to round out the collection and give me some breadth of reference material (and a great excuse to spend hours in the shitter...)

Are there any definitive works I should be looking to buy next? The Horandy manual gives me a damned good intro to reloading and I have the basics of that reasonably down pat. So now I'm looking for more data type manuals.

I have a 270WSM to load so the manuals need to be recent(ish) to incorporate that, but I prefer something that is not strictly brand specific, giving me a range of projectiles, COL's on them and the like.

Thoughts?

[Mr Merde]

I have the Hornady book of reloading and would like another one or two to round out the collection and give me some breadth of reference material (and a great excuse to spend hours in the shitter...)

Are there any definitive works I should be looking to buy next? The Horandy manual gives me a damned good intro to reloading and I have the basics of that reasonably down pat. So now I'm looking for more data type manuals.

I have a 270WSM to load so the manuals need to be recent(ish) to incorporate that, but I prefer something that is not strictly brand specific, giving me a range of projectiles, COL's on them and the like.

Thoughts?

The Lyman and the Lee reloading books are very good.
They are specific as to equipment not powders.

Get the ADI loading data as that seems to be a brand used by a lot of people here in NZ

Cartridges of the World is a ggood reference manual as is Pet Loads by Ken Waters although the latter will not have any reference to 270wsm. Its full of very interesting information.

You should come out to my place some day and just peruse the library.

I probably have 30-40 books on reloading and still look for more


Chris

[Mumbles]

There is an opinion poll on website stuff.co.nz today. It asks if we need more guns laws after the Napier incident :oi-grr:, it was not about gun laws at all :angry2:.
It may be an 'unofficial opinion poll', but don't let the 'anti-gun lobby' use it as a reference to further their cause:girlfight:. please vote
NO, its not about gun laws :mad:
www.stuff.co.nz

[The Pastor]

did anyone see the cambel live section on the illigal gun trade in NZ?

[The Pastor]

here is the full link to the gun law poll

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2400963/Siege-Gunmans-body-removed

its on the rhs of the page half way down.

3 000 people say more laws
13 000 people say no more laws

[scumdog]

here is the full link to the gun law poll

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2400963/Siege-Gunmans-body-removed

its on the rhs of the page half way down.

3 000 people say more laws
13 000 people say no more laws

Good shit!

The anti-gun-lobby-Phillip-Alpers-lovers have been skant on comment.

Maybe because all their rhetoric on registration/banning etc ad infinitum would not have made a difference here.

[Indiana_Jones]

Good shit!

The anti-gun-lobby-Phillip-Alpers-lovers have been skant on comment.

Maybe because all their rhetoric on registration/banning etc ad infinitum would not have made a difference here.

Considering apprently he owned them illegally, all the gun laws in the world would of made fuck all difference.

-Indy

[scumdog]

Considering apprently he owned them illegally, all the gun laws in the world would of made fuck all difference.

-Indy

Zachary wot I was meaning!;)

[Indiana_Jones]

Zachary wot I was meaning!;)

I figured as much :)

3000 to 14000 now

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Considering apprently he owned them illegally, all the gun laws in the world would of made fuck all difference.

-Indy
nah man the only way to solve this one is to ban semi automatics.

[Indiana_Jones]

nah man the only way to solve this one is to ban semi automatics.

of course! what was I thinking

problem is people have no idea what a semi-automatic is....

They hear automatic and they think it's a fucking machine gun :pinch:

I mean its not like a lever action or bolt is just as fast in the right hands

-Indy

[Mumbles]

I can fire my old lee enfield 303 just as fast (ok maybe not that fast) as my old trusted SLR. many a time had someone ask to see my semi and rub their head when they see the bolt

[Indiana_Jones]

Here's the new toy :whistle:


<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=129016&stc=1&d=1242031870">

-Indy

[Swoop]

There is another silly poll on the NZ Herald website regarding guns.
"What should be licenced, the gun or the person"?

Another kneejerk reaction.

I hope Pistol NZ rethinks its stance, of withdrawing from funding COLFO.

[Mr Merde]

of course! what was I thinking

problem is people have no idea what a semi-automatic is....

...

There is a female polititian in Aussie who was trying to get side by side shotguns banned.

Her reasoning was that as soon as you had fired the first barrel the second was " AUTOMATICALLY READY" to be fired by pulling the other trigger therefore it was an AUTOMATIC firearm.

Never underestimate the deviousness of the anti's

[Wolf]

There is a female polititian in Aussie who was trying to get side by side shotguns banned.

Her reasoning was that as soon as you had fired the first barrel the second was " AUTOMATICALLY READY" to be fired by pulling the other trigger therefore it was an AUTOMATIC firearm.

Never underestimate the deviousness of the anti's
silly slut needs to buy a dictionary - and then find someone to read bits of it to her

[ManDownUnder]

silly slut needs to buy a dictionary - and then find someone to read bits of it to her

So using that login my bolt actions are all fully auto... as soon as I have it loaded? Damn... I need an E cat...

[Mr Merde]

Any one remeber "Fred Dagg"

Remember his gumboot song?

Remember what you might get if you didnt keep your feet in them?

Well I havent got the flu.................

[Wolf]

Any one remeber "Fred Dagg"

Remember his gumboot song?

Remember what you might get if you didnt keep your feet in them?

Well I havent got the flu.................

pleurisy!

Bummer

[The Pastor]

Where is the link to the poll on the herald website? Cant find it.

I was talking about this to a friend who has no interest whatso ever in guns.

He thought every gun should be registered. I asked him why, he said it would stop me (being a firearm license holder) selling my rifle illegally.

I replied if I was the kind of person who would sell a fire arm illegally why would I bother about this new law, and that the only out come would be general cost increases for the law abiding citizen (which btw im fed up with getting ducked in the arse by the government).

He replied - "Costs should go up, shooting/hunting is only for sport."

There is no hope!

[Indiana_Jones]

Well on the 2 pages of "your views" on the herald site only one person was wanting more control.

The problem with this case is that the current laws didn't cause the problem.

This guy had had a lifetime licence, which of cause was taken away from the public in 92' and was given a 10 year grace period to get new licences and/or to sell on their weapons.

He kept his guns, and the cops didn't take them off him. So in that regard perhaps there has been a failing, but that has nothing to do with the current licencing laws.

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

In other news I grabbed a snap cap on the way home to try the new BSA with.

Seems to be in good working order. Will have to make my way to the range on Thursday to give it a real test.

The trigger is light as fuck lol. Might adjust it to be a little more heavy

Also I have all the sight inserts to go with her so I might have a play with them too

-Indy

[Swoop]

The problem with this case is that the current laws didn't cause the problem.

This guy had had a lifetime licence, which of cause was taken away from the public in 92'...
Quite interesting that this person was "known" to police, yet they failed to match up the fact that his licence had expired and therefore been revoked. I read today that he had a "C" endorsement as well...

[Mr Merde]

Erma has released a document with their decisions

They recommend that the ammount of powder, both smokeless and black, if held in quantities of less than 15kg do not need a CSL to buy or purchase.

This is down from the original 50kg

They also reccomend that you have to show a firearms licence to purchase powder for firearms.

While no bother to us as shooters this is a change as previously you didnt have to do so.

So the police have made inroads into our sport. Not as great as they would have liked but still it has limited some people. Some will say that these changes are minor but how many minor changes does it take to restrict something to a major extent.

What really worries me is how these changes were implemented. Not through the rule of law and parliament but through beaurocratic processes and seripticious methods. How easy it is to circumvent the letter of the law in the name of "whats good for us", in someone elses opinion.

Divide and conquer.

Watch the powers that be, chip away at our legal rights through these means and how long will it take for those rights to be practically useless.?

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Not good news at all.

Though these are recommendations? do they need parliamentary support to pass into law?

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

Well I'm happy with it :niceone:

Here's some pics of last night's effort

For the second picture, 10 circle is 3mm in diameter & 9 circle is 15mm in diameter

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

Well went up to the range yesterday in order to check the rifle is still driving tacks and to stretch its legs yesterday...... but too many rich aucklanders out in their boats meant the 300 was out of action so I stayed around for some pistol shooting...... and the bug has bitten again.

Was mainly using a Glock, which has the most filthy disgusting trigger I have used, but had a play with the guy who was teaching us 38 super open class pistol with a lovely light trigger.

Initially he had set up a IPSC set up which we had a go at, and then moved on to some aiming and muscle memory training, well worth it! And now the club is looking at setting up regular training sessions as they thought this impromptu one went so well.

Now to get that endorsement and a 226!





Mr Merde, would you be able to ask around your Cowboy guys if anyone is using

[Mr Merde]

Well went up to the range yesterday in order to check the rifle is still driving tacks and to stretch its legs yesterday...... but too many rich aucklanders out in their boats meant the 300 was out of action so I stayed around for some pistol shooting...... and the bug has bitten again.

Was mainly using a Glock, which has the most filthy disgusting trigger I have used, but had a play with the guy who was teaching us 38 super open class pistol with a lovely light trigger.

Initially he had set up a IPSC set up which we had a go at, and then moved on to some aiming and muscle memory training, well worth it! And now the club is looking at setting up regular training sessions as they thought this impromptu one went so well.

Now to get that endorsement and a 226!





Mr Merde, would you be able to ask around your Cowboy guys if anyone is using

So the bug has bitten.

Welcome to my addiction.

Sig 226. Lovely handgun. My carry gun in UK army was a Sig 220. I'll ask around if anyone uses a 226.

Chris

[Swoop]

...... but too many rich aucklanders out in their boats meant the 300 was out of action
That is why the winter months are popular on the 300. Less foul-range days.

[Mr Merde]

Had the results of the audio testing from our range.

Council is worried about the noise from our propaosed site and its affect on the neighbours.

Technician hired.

Test weapons were a .308 rifle, a 12 guage shotgun and a .45 ACP

Engineer went completely around the perimeter of the area and measured the sound. He also took measurements at or near all 7 residences that are in the area.

In a lot of places the shooting couldnt be heard and didnt register on the techies sound measuring device.

In those places where he got a reading it was between a low of 41 db and a high of 49db.

Nothing higher.

A human voice converses at approximately 72 db.

The wind on the range was registering 65 db.

He then took measurements at the firing point.

128db

Good thing all ranges enforce hearing protection.

So we now have scuppered the councils concerns regarding noise. We also took the opportunity to talk to 5 out of the 7 neighbours (2 werent at home) and explained what we hoped to do. No objections from them. They will all sign a letter stating this.

Another scuppering of council concerns.

We are getting there slowly but surely. I've personally beeen working on the document that we will be submitting to council to get RMA approval.

Just waiting for a few other documents to be passed to me for inclusion.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Thanks for the update Chris!

-Indy

[The Pastor]

good work chirs, cant wait for the range to be open

droped my 308 off at serious shooters as its misfiring, one of the guys there said the dent where the hammer hits the primer is raised and indicates a head space issue, we'll see how this goes


also box of ammo went up from $49 to $71.50 for a box of 20.

[Indiana_Jones]

also box of ammo went up from $49 to $71.50 for a box of 20.

you're taking the piss right?

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

also box of ammo went up from $49 to $71.50 for a box of 20.

I have noticed this as well, damn shitty NZ dollar and Osama!



Mr Merde, would you be able to ask around your Cowboy guys if anyone is using......

38-40 Winchester and hand loading. Not much ammo left and with the dollar the way it is I cant front for the gear.

[sAsLEX]

you're taking the piss right?

-Indy

45 44 and 59 for the last three boxes of rifle ammo, and the 59 was a while back.

[The Pastor]

you're taking the piss right?

-Indy
nope guess who'll be reloading soon lol

[Indiana_Jones]

nope guess who'll be reloading soon lol

Not like they're giving us a choice with those prices lol

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

I have noticed this as well, damn shitty NZ dollar and Osama!




38-40 Winchester and hand loading. Not much ammo left and with the dollar the way it is I cant front for the gear.


You want me if anyone is reloading 38-40.... right?

How much ammo are you looking for?

[Mr Merde]

......

also box of ammo went up from $49 to $71.50 for a box of 20.

Mentioned this in my rant over the powers trying to license reloaders.

Ammo has gone up by 50-100% overe the last year.

Its not all Osama. China has been buying up the raw ingredients ie lead, like there was no tomorrow.

The septics have been buying a lot more guns and ammo than usual as they fear that the new regime is going to severely restrict firearm ownership.

Its already illegal to use lead bullets in the PRK. (Peoples Republic of Kalifornia).

Reloading is the way to go b ut the cost of setting up means that it is going to take you a few more boxes of reloads before you start saving.

I load my .44 mag rounds for about $5\100. Thats without factoring in the cost of the brass as it has been used something like 20-30 times per piece.

It also includes the cost of the lead that I cast the bullets from.

I have about 50 kg of old lead pipes just waiting to be melted down and a friendly scrapp dealer who msells it to me a $1.50 a kg. That gives me enough lead to cast about 4000 rounds.

The expensive part of reloading for me is keeping my shotgun fed. I dont have a shot maker yet so have to buy pellets. This has doubled in price.

[Wolf]

also box of ammo went up from $49 to $71.50 for a box of 20.
Hot Damn! Even the humble .22lr is a lot dearer than when I last bought a brick. At this rate, the only thing I'll be able to afford to "feed" will be the Brown Bess...

[Indiana_Jones]

Don't the fucking know we need the ammo to kill the zombies for when they come!?

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

How can the braindead understand the danger of the braindead?

Bugger the Zombies, what about the Vamps (orherwise refered to as polititians) and Wolves?

[fatzx10r]

Bugger the Zombies, what about the Wolves?

silver bullets, that's guna cost ya

[Wolf]

How can the braindead understand the danger of the braindead?

Bugger the Zombies, what about the Vamps (orherwise refered to as polititians) and Wolves?
Do what you like to the zombies but leave the wolves alone - lest we shoot back :2guns::ar15:

[Indiana_Jones]

This thread always comes back to zombies lol

-Indy

[The Pastor]

http://www.seasonshot.com/

has anyone seen this? It must be a pisstake surely?

But it got me thinking, i shot a hare with some number 4 lead ammo and cooked it up (had some for lunch - very nice). but i found the occasional ball still in the meat (hurts your teeth man!) is that bad health wise? i mean most shot duck would be filled with it surely.

[fatzx10r]

http://www.seasonshot.com/

has anyone seen this? It must be a pisstake surely?

But it got me thinking, i shot a hare with some number 4 lead ammo and cooked it up (had some for lunch - very nice). but i found the occasional ball still in the meat (hurts your teeth man!) is that bad health wise? i mean most shot duck would be filled with it surely.

flavor from the inside out lol, what a crock. as for the lead shot, swallowing lots lot's of little ball's of lead cant be to good for ya, but steel shot is what most use these day's so i dont think that it would be to much of a problem

[Mr Merde]

I suppose how well your stomache does in digesting the lead. A medical person would be able to tell you this. It probably just passes through your system.

Why waste a #4 on a hare. .22 does just as well and is cheaper. 50m and they just leap into the air and drop. never had one travel more than 1 m from where it was shot.

Start my turkey season this comming weekend. I have an order for 30 from a restaurant. Last month I have been walking the hills and finding out where they roost. Got a couple of good spots with flocks of 20+.

[Wolf]

but i found the occasional ball still in the meat (hurts your teeth man!) is that bad health wise? i mean most shot duck would be filled with it surely.
we used to have a saucer on the table for any shot we bit down on when eating duck - part and parcel of eating wild duck. Yeah, lead shot does hurt the teeth.

Probably swallowed some shot over the years, too.

[Indiana_Jones]

Start my turkey season this comming weekend. I have an order for 30 from a restaurant. Last month I have been walking the hills and finding out where they roost. Got a couple of good spots with flocks of 20+.

Sounds like you might need a hand there Chris? :D

Field test for the BSA perhaps? 5kg .22 = heavy lol

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Why waste a #4 on a hare. .22 does just as well and is cheaper. 50m and they just leap into the air and drop. never had one travel more than 1 m from where it was shot.

well you see, its more fun with a mate on a quad with a spotlight and me on the back with a shotgun, he spots a bunny guns it while Im balancing on the back with a loaded 12g.


just gotta watch out for the fences!

[Mr Merde]

well you see, its more fun with a mate on a quad with a spotlight and me on the back with a shotgun, he spots a bunny guns it while Im balancing on the back with a loaded 12g.


just gotta watch out for the fences!

Understood

A lot to be said for the FUN factor

[The Pastor]

also i dont seem to understand how to aim my side by side, i cant hit anything with it!

[Drunken Monkey]

Don't the fucking know we need the ammo to kill the zombies for when they come!?

-Indy

Start stockpiling...

I use "Left 4 Dead" to do my training. I got 32+ minutes on survivor mode for Death Toll/Drains. Wicked.

[Mr Merde]

also i dont seem to understand how to aim my side by side, i cant hit anything with it!

Aim low and lead with the barrels

[Indiana_Jones]

U need to play more COD5 bro

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

[QUOTE=Mr Merde;1129220207]
Its already illegal to use lead bullets in the PRK. (Peoples Republic of Kalifornia).
[QUOTE]

Who needs lead?

<img src=http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa171/crzyman1971/IMG_0016.jpg><img>

http://www.predatorprojectiles.com.au/


Was thinking 100 odd 38-40 for the odd plinking session with it. Will get some reloading gear in the near future but cant afford a setup for the .308 and the pistol round.

[Mr Merde]

[QUOTE=Mr Merde;1129220207]
Its already illegal to use lead bullets in the PRK. (Peoples Republic of Kalifornia).
[QUOTE]

Who needs lead?

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa171/crzyman1971/IMG_0016.jpg

http://www.predatorprojectiles.com.au/


Was thinking 100 odd 38-40 for the odd plinking session with it. Will get some reloading gear in the near future but cant afford a setup for the .308 and the pistol round.


Love the bullets. My mates up north turn out their bullets, for a Boyes .55 anti tank rifle, on a lathe and made from solid brass

I'll ask about the 38-40. See whats around.


Chris

[Wolf]

Who needs lead?
When Depleted Uranium can get the job done with so much more flair...

[Mr Merde]

When Depleted Uranium can get the job done with so much more flair...

Usede to buy that stuff in the late 80's.

23 UK pounds per shot.

[Wolf]

Usede to buy that stuff in the late 80's.

23 UK pounds per shot.
What the fuck were you shooting at that required DU rounds? Did the deer thereabouts travel by APC?

[Mr Merde]

What the fuck were you shooting at that required DU rounds? Did the deer thereabouts travel by APC?

No we were on an army range in Caldicot, South Wales.

It backed on to the Servern Estuary.

We were shooting targets at 600 yards with my mate Andy's single shot .50 BMG.

We only bought 4 rounds as 100 UKP wasa a shit load of money for us.

We only realised later that if we had of missed , that on the other side of the Severn was the nuclear powerstation and it was well withing range of a .50BMG.

Hate to think what would have happened if a DU round had hit this installation.

[The Pastor]

well here goes round 2.


got the rifle back, couldn't find a problem (its misfiring), reattach the scope and go to sight it in.

sure enough after about 15 shots i get a misfire.

Took it back in, and sure enough they cant find a fault. I bitched at them for a bit and now they are sending it to a 3rd gunsmith.

Bet ya 100 bucks he wont find a problem, i asked the store man to tell the gunsmith to check headspace and he says he only is allowed to tell the gunsmith the problem (i.e., misfiring) and that no one in New Zealand has a headspace gauge and if it was headspace it'd be doing it on every round. not just every now and again.

i dunno what to do? send it back to america?

[Wolf]

Hate to think what would have happened if a DU round had hit this installation.
"Containment Breach"

[Mr Merde]

well here goes round 2.


got the rifle back, couldn't find a problem (its misfiring), reattach the scope and go to sight it in.

sure enough after about 15 shots i get a misfire.

Took it back in, and sure enough they cant find a fault. I bitched at them for a bit and now they are sending it to a 3rd gunsmith.

Bet ya 100 bucks he wont find a problem, i asked the store man to tell the gunsmith to check headspace and he says he only is allowed to tell the gunsmith the problem (i.e., misfiring) and that no one in New Zealand has a headspace gauge and if it was headspace it'd be doing it on every round. not just every now and again.

i dunno what to do? send it back to america?

Check your ammo for proud primers.
Check the firing pin spring
Check the firing pin for protrusion (too far)

How does it missfire?

When closing the bolt?
How is the bolt moved into position ?
Is it a caming movement?
Does it use gearing?
Both could be loose or miss aligned

Contact the manufacturers via the internet and ask their advice

[The Pastor]

hows your health atm chirs? i'll bring it around if you want to have a look (and a shoot if it shoots haha) when i get it back.

yeah i'll be contacting marlin after i give the gun shop one more go. (3 times lucky)

What do you mean proud primers? when the hammer hits the primer if the dent sits a bit proud?

[Mr Merde]

hows your health atm chirs? i'll bring it around if you want to have a look (and a shoot if it shoots haha) when i get it back.

yeah i'll be contacting marlin after i give the gun shop one more go. (3 times lucky)

What do you mean proud primers? when the hammer hits the primer if the dent sits a bit proud?


Proud primers are exactly what they soun]d like.

Primers that are sitting proud of the base of the case before they are fired.

Shouldnt be a case with factory ammo but who knows. narrows down the field a bit.

Are there any particular circumstances when the missfire occurs.

I take it its when you close the lever and the bolt goes forward.

Check that the firing pin isnt hanging up in the bolt. No burrs etc

[The Pastor]

I really want to take the bolt apart, but the dickhead (is his name richard or something?) at SS said i'll break it, which i find hard to belive so i gave it a go, but couldn't seem to figure it out

<img src='http://www.pyrocam.com/filez/go/marlinparts.JPG'>

Its part 15 i cant get off. (is it the extractor?)

[Mr Merde]

I really want to take the bolt apart, but the dickhead (is his name richard or something?) at SS said i'll break it, which i find hard to belive so i gave it a go, but couldn't seem to figure it out

http://www.pyrocam.com/filez/go/marlinparts.JPG

Its part 15 i cant get off. (is it the extractor?)


What dont you understand?

Check for dirt in the bolt. Check the firing pin for burrs

Check the hole that the firing pin protudes from after being struck. Look for a burr

You cant break it and yes Richard is a dickhead

Chris

[The Pastor]

part 15 that comes off part 2. i put alot of force trying to take it off, it looks like its just pressed on and should simply pop off? or do i need to take number 23 off first? are they just pins or screws?

[Mr Merde]

part 15 that comes off part 2. i put alot of force trying to take it off, it looks like its just pressed on and should simply pop off? or do i need to take number 23 off first? are they just pins or screws?

Part 15 is the extractor. I agree it looks like it rols off but I would go careful.

Personallly I would concentrate on parts 23 first.

Parts 23 are pins. You will need to drift these out with a pin punch. They hold the firing pin in the bolt.

[wbks]

Just a quick Q to anyone who has gotten their licence recently... It says that you need to apply "at an arms officer" and at a police station. Are you just supposed to go to any station and they will arrange something or do you need to go to specific ones?

[Indiana_Jones]

Just a quick Q to anyone who has gotten their licence recently... It says that you need to apply "at an arms officer" and at a police station. Are you just supposed to go to any station and they will arrange something or do you need to go to specific ones?

Goto the cop shop and ask for the Arms officer.

I donno where you're based to, they might direct you to a bigger station if it's a small one.

-Indy

[wbks]

K... About the referees, what kind of thing do they need to answer? 'Cause I don't really know many people over 20 if they need to answer everything down to what my favourite colour is. And I take it a standard licence will cover .22 semi's and larger caliber bolt actions? Adds on trademe seem to have .322 semi's listed as Acategory's and pretty much any bolt action rifle normal?

[Indiana_Jones]

Well I have been a referee for my mate when he applied for his licence.

They just ask things like is he a trustyworthy person, anger/violent person?

Just run of the mill stuff to get a picture of you.

A-cat will allow you to own rifles of any calibar. upto 7 shots in larger calibar semi autos, 15 shots (or is it 25?) for .22 semi autos

No pistol grips and folding stocks etc.

will also allow you to own semi shotguns (not sure if there's a shot limit to them) as well as all other types.

-Indy

[Sniper]

Anyone know where to get an M40A3 stock? I have the rest, just want the stock for..... um...... research

[fatzx10r]

got this pic of a friend firing my sks, i thought it looked bloody cool :2guns:

[Indiana_Jones]

That's a pretty bad arse muzzle flash lol

Have to try my M44 at night I think!

[ManDownUnder]

That's a pretty bad arse muzzle flash lol

I wonder what a 22-250 Tikka T3 Lite Stainless looks like at night...

... I might need to try my new one and see... :)

[Wolf]

I wonder what a 22-250 Tikka T3 Lite Stainless looks like at night...

... I might need to try my new one and see... :)
Dunno, but the flash from a Winchester 30-30 seemed to reach across a river to the valley wall on the far side. Mind you, I was behind and to the left of the muzzle so I'm willing to concede that part may have been the angle of view and part may have been an after-image from the red-hot arse of the projectile. Considering my eyes were accustomed to starlight at the time, anything brighter than Sirius would have left its mark on my retina...

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Anyone know anything about a chinese firearms company by the name of Jianwei ? I've just bought another 22, as my winter project, and wondered if anyone had heard of them ? :confused:

[Indiana_Jones]

Anyone know anything about a chinese firearms company by the name of Jianwei ? I've just bought another 22, as my winter project, and wondered if anyone had heard of them ? :confused:

Isn't that like some 2 minute noodle company? lol

No idea mate!

so is it fucked?

Bolt?

got pics?

-Indy

[frogfeaturesFZR]

No not to bad actually. Lovely timber on it. I'll post some pics.

[fatzx10r]

No not to bad actually. Lovely timber on it. I'll post some pics.

did you get it off trade me? i think i seen one on there a few day's back

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Sure did :niceone:

[wbks]

Just curious as to where you people in town areas go to shoot loud rifles? Not sure if there are any target ranges around here but I don't really know anyone that owns bush land or where is ok to just go anyway?

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Join your local deerstalkers, if they have a range ?
Heres the pics of my 2 latest toys. The K98 now has my Lyman 2 1/2 power scope on it, and the 22 off Trademe now has a 4x40 Tasco on it. The Trademe 22 has been expoxy bedded and the barrel has been floated.

[jono035]

For shooting anything more than .22LR in rifle form you've gotta look for a deerstalkers club. In Auckland, Central Shooters on Nelson St handles .22LR rifles and pistols from .22 rimfires right through to .44 magnum.
I think there is a deerstalkers range out Massey way somewhere.

[jono035]

K... About the referees, what kind of thing do they need to answer? 'Cause I don't really know many people over 20 if they need to answer everything down to what my favourite colour is. And I take it a standard licence will cover .22 semi's and larger caliber bolt actions? Adds on trademe seem to have .322 semi's listed as Acategory's and pretty much any bolt action rifle normal?

When I got mine, I originally had my boss and a work colleague listed as my referees but they said they would actually prefer to talk to someone who I lived with so ended up interviewing my girlfriend and flatmate. Basically asked if I had a history of any violent/erratic behaviour, if I was a responsible person and whether they would be comfortable with the idea of me having a gun license.

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/arms-code.pdf has all the info you need on the different stages of license and what the criteria are for the different weapons categories.

[ManDownUnder]

Dunno, but the flash from a Winchester 30-30 seemed to reach across a river to the valley wall on the far side.

I tried her out just on dusk tonight... very nice flash bang too! She handles a treat and the 50mm objective drags the light in like I would never have predicted.

My Tikka T3 in 22-250... what an outstanding combo!

[Mr Merde]

I tried her out just on dusk tonight... very nice fkash bang too! She handles a treat and the 50mm objective drags the light in like I would never have predicted.

My Tikka T3 in 22-250... what an outstanding combo!

New biike and a new rifle. nice

[Mr Merde]

Speaking of new rifles.

My mate, Mark Jackson, phoned me the other night fom the UK.

Mark is a member of the British Black Powder Club and his father is the Captian of the Bristish BP shooting team going tho the world champs in the US this August.

Another member is selling off some of his collection of rifles.

Would I be interested in an 1879, Trapdoor Springfield Cadet, in 45-70.

This is an original rifle and whilst the rifle 's exterior is only in 80% finish the mechanics are perfect. Mark has shot it at 500 yards and rung the gong with every shot.

Checked out my reference books. All numbers matched. Woodwork has correct markings.

This is the real thing. One of only 22,000 made in the cadet model.

600,000 Trapdoors were made and the were used right up til WW1.

Mark is sending me photos and such next week.

If they look OK I will be buying it.

Mark is planing on comming over here in August for a look around, with a vies to moving here permanently. He will bring the rifle with him as well as his original Brown Bess and hopefully his original Whitworth rifle.

Slowlyu growing myu collection

Chris

[geoffm]

Just curious as to where you people in town areas go to shoot loud rifles? Not sure if there are any target ranges around here but I don't really know anyone that owns bush land or where is ok to just go anyway?

Serious Shooters have published an A4 list of all the local gun clubs by discipline. Call in to see them and get a copy.
Deerstalkers or Waiuku Pistol Club being 2 with full bore ranges. There are a couple of 25m indoor ranges for 22 rifles.

[Mr Merde]

Just curious as to where you people in town areas go to shoot loud rifles? Not sure if there are any target ranges around here but I don't really know anyone that owns bush land or where is ok to just go anyway?


At the moment I avail myself of gthe 100+metre range just 50 metres from my back door. Of course being a piece of private labnd I am not allowed to shoot my pistols there.

In the longer term I am part of a group trying to start a new range in the Franklin area. This will be pistol, rifle and shotgun.


Chris

[The Pastor]

hey chirs have you fired that rifle you were making yet?

[Mr Merde]

hey chirs have you fired that rifle you were making yet?

Still unfired.

collecting all the bits to make the rounds.

got brass, mould,bp. primers.

only need to get the dies and it'll be all go.

[wbks]

What rifles would you guy's recommend for the average outdoor shooting range? Kind of want something larger than a .22, just because shooting seems like more of an experience when you can actually feel and hear it... But can't really afford to shell out $1000+ or spend too much on ammo (recently seen that some of the larger caliber rifles are the good part of a dollar for one round, and about shat myself :( ). Something pretty looking would be nice too... I kind of feel like I'm shopping for bikes again :lol:

[Drunken Monkey]

plenty of stuff around for $600-$800 that shoots 7.62x39. That will probably suit your requirements. Look for things like the SKS or similar.

[Indiana_Jones]

Good second hand .223 might be what you're after

-Indy

[wbks]

Yea, I've seen SKS' on trademe before but they slipped my mind, look quite nice. Semi - open bolt, right? Few cheap .223's out there from what I can see, too. Thanks for the hint

[The Pastor]

you want a sporty 303, can get them from 100-500 bucks

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-223077888.htm

[Smokin]

recently seen that some of the larger caliber rifles are the good part of a dollar for one round, and about shat myself :( ).


A Mate has a 416 rigby, He pays $18 per round :crazy:

[jono035]

Depending on how keen you are and how much ammo you go through, there is always the option of reloading your own ammo. Plenty of info online and for rifle ammo you can use a cheap single stage press (as opposed to the 5 stage progressive I'm looking at for pistol ammo). Doesn't take long and as long as you've got a decent eye for detail and don't let things distract you then you'll be safely making loads that are probably better than factory anyway...

[jono035]

A Mate has a 416 rigby, He pays $18 per round :crazy:

Yeah, one of the range officers at central shooters shoots .500 winchester magnum... can't remember how much factory rounds were but not that far off...

[wbks]

Depending on how keen you are and how much ammo you go through, there is always the option of reloading your own ammo. Plenty of info online and for rifle ammo you can use a cheap single stage press (as opposed to the 5 stage progressive I'm looking at for pistol ammo). Doesn't take long and as long as you've got a decent eye for detail and don't let things distract you then you'll be safely making loads that are probably better than factory anyway...Define a "cheap" press?

[scumdog]

Do you guys with a standard licence know there's moves afoot to make things trickier when it comes to NOT having a 'free standing pistol grip' on your 7 shot AK47?

It seems that the old screw-a-bit-of-wood-from-pistol-grip-to-bottom-of-butt to get around that reg will no longer get by.

[Indiana_Jones]

Do you guys with a standard licence know there's moves afoot to make things trickier when it comes to NOT having a 'free standing pistol grip' on your 7 shot AK47?

It seems that the old screw-a-bit-of-wood-from-pistol-grip-to-bottom-of-butt to get around that reg will no longer get by.

Please tell me you're joking Scummy! :bash:

-Indy

[hospitalfood]

ditched my cheap AK and got a cheaper sks. sks is way nicer IMO

[geoffm]

Good second hand .223 might be what you're after

-Indy

Also plan on taking up reloading if you own any centerfire stuff.
I use a Lee press kit whcih I have had for years - cheap and works.
projectiles and cases for 223 are cheap on trademe from time to time as well, adn they don't use to much powder. My 3006 uses 3times as much, and it adds up

[wbks]

So is all the equipment you need to reload very expensive?

[jono035]

Pretty much the cost is determined by the complexity of the press, which generally determines the rate at which you can reload ammo.

A full progressive press setup will cost you around $700-1k all up, but will churn out hundreds of rounds per hour, ideal for competitive pistol shooting. It works by having a bunch of dies that each do different things (resizing the casing/punching out the old primer, seating the new one, filling the case with gunpowder, seating and crimping the bullet etc.) once per pull of the handle, so on a 5 stage press, 1 handle pull = 5 different operations on 5 different rounds.

A single stage press does 1 thing at a time to one round at a time. You would go through and resize all of your casings first, then change the die (screw out the old one, screw in the new one) then fill all your casings with measured powder (from a scale or a dipper) then stick the bullets in the top then put them through the press again, all of this is much more manual, requiring you to manually insert and remove each casing each step of the way. It is much slower, but also more precise and supposedly gives you a better insight into the way the whole system works. You can get an entire setup for around $300 new for this I think without much trouble, probably less if you find a bargain on trademe...

[jono035]

http://www.outdoorsupplies.co.nz/leereload3.htm

If you check out the 50th anniversary reloading kit for $260

then on the other page a basic die set for $55 and shell holder for $11

That would probably get you started apart from bullets/powder/primers.

If you're near auckland, probably the best guys to talk to would be serious shooters, they're a good bunch and really happy to help out, have a chat and answer any questions. Should be able to point you in the right direction for where to start out load-data wise.

There are a lot of videos of reloading presses in action on youtube and tons of info around on how to get started with reloading, and what the normal procedure is. If you need any further info drop me a PM, but I've never actually reloaded anything myself, I've just been pricing up a kit to get started and have been talking to a heap of different people about it.

[hospitalfood]

i would not recommend a cheap press for larger centerfire. my cheap press is not really up to .270. it does it but not all that well

[jono035]

That particular press isn't really a cheap press, more middle-of-the-road, it isn't the best, but judging by what I've been reading is perfectly adequate for most uses, especially if you're just getting into shooting and are more worried about ammo price than making perfect, painstakingly crafted target rounds...

They hold their value well from what I've seen in shooters magazines too...

[Delerium]

try a lee turreted press.. .means you dont have to change dies and set them up all the time. $150, plus dies, and consumables. for $500 you will get a good setup and consumables and dies. Just make sure you get somebody to show you the ropes first. Some calibres are not worth reloading.

[jono035]

The cheap turreted presses always looked pretty flimsy to me? rods connecting to a cap rather than cast as a single piece... Any experience with them? Seems like the better ones use a fully cast frame to avoid any flexing of the turret as you work...

If you're reloading a single caliber then I would think that the time spent swapping out dies would be pretty minimal, especially if you're seating/crimping in a single operation...

[Mr Merde]

The cheap turreted presses always looked pretty flimsy to me? rods connecting to a cap rather than cast as a single piece... Any experience with them? Seems like the better ones use a fully cast frame to avoid any flexing of the turret as you work...

If you're reloading a single caliber then I would think that the time spent swapping out dies would be pretty minimal, especially if you're seating/crimping in a single operation...

I use a Lee turret press.

All my different calibres are in their own heads, (about $20 each)

To change calibres I just swap the head over.

On an average afternoon of reloading and provided I have all the components ready (no casting to be done), I turn out between 300-500 rounds of .44 mag and .44 spl.

I also turn out a couple of hundred .30 carbine and the same in .223

Shotgun I use a MEC jnr and can turn out 100 an hour.

If I load with black powder then I take longer as there is a different method used to dipense this powder.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

Got some more goodies given to me last night.

New MEC shotgun press, progressive, 1000 sonce fired shotgun hulls, 500 new primed shotgun hulls, 1000 shotgun primer, 1000 large rifle primers, box of Hornady .454 round ball, box of Pyrodex pellets, very sturdy military camp knife, 50x 45-70 cases, 200 .224 projectiles, 1000 small rifle primers, 6 cd's on disassembling, refurbishing and collecting military surplus rifles,

Tasco 45x50 spotting scope on a pan and tilt tripod.

Mate of mine is getting rid of a lot of his shooting stuff. He isnt well and the long term prognosis is not good. He is putting his affairs in order. He knows I will take anything in the reloading field.

Everytime he visits he brings a new load of stuff for me.

He has informed me that his will stipulates that all his firearms are to go to me but I would prefer my mate around than having to honour his request.

I am going to have to reorganise my reloading room for all this new stuff.

Gives me an excuse to keep out of the missus' way as I seem to have done something wrong. Maybe the sun rose in the east this week and its my fault, who knows?

[Wolf]

He has informed me that his will stipulates that all his firearms are to go to me but I would prefer my mate around than having to honour his request.
Sincerely hoping it's a long time yet before you have to find room for his firearms, mate.

[Swoop]

Yea, I've seen SKS' on trademe before... Semi - open bolt, right?
Nope. They fire from the closed bolt position.
A superb rifle for goat hunting!

[wbks]

Not that it matters to me, but can you really legally own fully auto AK's etc with a special endorsement? Didn't think you could but someone was saying you can earlyer and on gun city there are mini uzi's and ak74's for sale (genuine apparantly, not saiga or anything) and aren't listed as semi's either :/

About the SKS... Wouldn't it be pointless to get a carbine for the target range?

[jono035]

Bad news, sorry to hear that.

[jono035]

No autos allowed at all as far as I know, not even on collectors licenses.

The weapons they are listing are probably 'genuine' rifles with the trigger groups changed to be semi auto, or are permanently disabled in some way (trigger groups removed all together?)

Edit- "New Zealand gun laws do not treat the AK-47 differently from any other firearm. Full-auto versions are prohibited, except for collectors with a special endorsement" - from the wikipedia article on ak47 legal status, seems to indicate that you can own full-autos on a collectors license... It may be that you are unable to actually fire the weapons held on a collectors license... Can't remember the distinction.

[Indiana_Jones]

If you're after target shooting, an SKS isn't gonna be what you want.

Depends what you like in rifles at the end of the day, martini, bolt, semi

wood, plastic? etc

-Indy

[wbks]

Yea well I like the look of plastic stocks better than wood, and probably a bolt action... I'm told they are a little bit more accurate and reliable. Probably just going to get a cheapish 223 like this. http://www.guncity.co.nz/223-stevens-200-blued-synthetic-bolt-action-rifle-xidp227994.html

Are those ak47 style 7.62 rifles any good for target's?

[jono035]

They'll probably be rubbish, the ak pattern was never known for its accuracy.

Depends on whether you want to be able to blast away with a semi auto and the target is just there for extra credit, or whether you actually want to try see how accurately you can shoot?

[jono035]

Not that there is anything wrong with just wanting to let rip at a target and to hell with the consequences, I love doing that with my .22s, but it gets pretty expensive if I start doing that with the 9mm, and I'd hate to think how much ammo you'd go through with a centerfire rifle. Even 7.62x39 or .223 is going to cost you not that much less than $1 per round until you start buying in quantity...

[wbks]

Lol, accuracy would be more important, and it would be stupid to set up re loading stuff for saving dollars and then going through whole mags in 5 seconds haha

[jono035]

Nah, thats exactly why you want the reloading setup, makes it cheaper to burn through a ton of ammo (I remember a couple of people saying that if you get a reloading setup you won't save money, just use ammo faster) :2thumbsup:

Are you 100% dead-set on not using a .22? I've got a couple of .22 rifles and a .22 pistol. I enjoy shooting the .22 pistol just as much as my 9mm (if not more so) because it is a hell of a lot more accurate and the ammo costs me $5 for 50 rounds instead of $35 for 50...

Reloading would make the 9mm cheaper of course, but still nowhere near the value of a .22... Guess it all depends on what you want... there are a heap of guys that I've met shooting targets with .22 rifles that are worth easily $1k+ and almost every pistol shooter I know has a .22 pistol as well that they shoot just as often as their bigger guns.

[wbks]

Maybe a .22 pistol would be fun, but I've just been on and off shooting .308's and .22 rifles a few times and the .22 is alright but like I said it seems like more of a shooting "experience" when a few magazines makes your shoulder a little sore and leaves a ringing in your ear even with ear plugs :) I see you're in auckland... Where do you go to shoot?

[Indiana_Jones]

Forget a military rifle if accuracy is number one.

Get a nice .223.

I hear Savage are pretty good for value

Edit: I see you linked to a Savage Stevens rifle. See if you can get one with the accu-trigger, it's adjustable :)

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

http://www.sportwaysgunshed.co.nz/viewcategory.php?category=Centrefire&subcategory=Savage

the Savage 10FP (2nd from the top on that page) is on my list of wanted toys.

Held one in the shop, pure target rifle stuff, dragunov stock, adjustable tripper and the over-sized bolt.

Nice and heavy too, like my BSA International :)

-Indy

[wbks]

What's the point of an adjustable trigger? Wouldn't you just want one as light as possible without accidental firing?

[jono035]

Personal preference? Some are adjustable for take-up and overtravel too... Depends on what you're using the gun for too, bench rest target shooting, lightest possible, hunting is a different story altogether...

[Indiana_Jones]

Personal preference? Some are adjustable for take-up and overtravel too... Depends on what you're using the gun for too, bench rest target shooting, lightest possible, hunting is a different story altogether...

What he said :apint:

-Indy

[jono035]

Cheers Indy!

The .22 bolt action I use for rabbits/possums (and an incredibly optimistic pot-shot at a passing stoat once!) has a pretty heavy trigger, could beat it against a tree while loaded without it firing, but then again I take a lot of friends/family out shooting who don't have all that much familiarity with guns, so the more deliberate the shot has to be the better. If I had my target .22 out there it'd be a bit scary... hair trigger semi auto = recipe for a .22 bullet in the rump.

[Swoop]

No autos allowed at all as far as I know, not even on collectors licenses.


...seems to indicate that you can own full-autos on a collectors license... It may be that you are unable to actually fire the weapons held on a collectors license... Can't remember the distinction.
A bonafied collector who has a "C" category endorsement to his/her licence may own such firearms. For storage, a vital part has to be removed to render the firearm inoperable.
You are not permitted to fire the firearm.

[wbks]

Just out of curiousity... If you were to reload something like a 308 or even a 300 win magnum, would you still spend more than factory 223 ammo?

[Mr Merde]

Just out of curiousity... If you were to reload something like a 308 or even a 300 win magnum, would you still spend more than factory 223 ammo?

I havent bought factory ammo for so long now I have no idea of the cost of a round.

If you take out the cost of the brass as this accounts for 3/4 of the price of a round but after the initial purchase you can probably use it 20-30 times depending on loading.

The cost of a primer is about 2 cents

The cost of the powder used would be something similar but lets just estimate it higher at 5 cents

the bullet itself probably will cost you about 50 cents

Therefore a round of .308 will cost approximately 57 cents

So how much is .223 ammo

Now to throw mud into the equation.

Factory ammo is loaded to a standard.

+- 5% of weight, velocity etc

When reloading your own you can work to much higher tolerances than would be ecconomical for a factory.

By reducing thewse tolerances you are making the round a lot more accurate than the factory, that is once you find the best one that workd for you particular firearm.

I reload .44 mag a lot.

I also cast my own bullets.

I can make 300 rounds of reloads for less than the price of a box of 50 factory loads by about 60% of the faqctory price.

Once you start working out the cost of all the equipment and how long iot would take you to recoup your expenditure then there isnt a lot of difference until you start using high volumes of ammo.

If you reload you will start shooting more, I can almost guaeantee it.

Chris

[wbks]

.308 (cheapest) and 300 win mag -49.95. If you're right, 20 reloaded rounds would be $11 something. Remington 223 is only $20 factory, though

[ManDownUnder]

Anyone in Auckland got a .22 Youth Rifle my little man could have a crack with. It'll be a few weeks till we're ok to try it out but any loaners would be appreciated and I promise it'll come back as clean or cleaner than when you part with it.

[Mr Merde]

Anyone in Auckland got a .22 Youth Rifle my little man could have a crack with. It'll be a few weeks till we're ok to try it out but any loaners would be appreciated and I promise it'll come back as clean or cleaner than when you part with it.

PM'd you.

Winchester .22 pump action gallery rifle.

Lovely shooter with no recoil

1912 model

Takedown.

Chris

[jono035]

If you're after cheap shooting, then getting something like a .308 and loading lower-power rounds could work too, makes the brass last longer and not require trimming if you're keen on doing it to a really tight budget...

[Indiana_Jones]

Anyone in Auckland got a .22 Youth Rifle my little man could have a crack with. It'll be a few weeks till we're ok to try it out but any loaners would be appreciated and I promise it'll come back as clean or cleaner than when you part with it.

Well I have a 1970's TOZ 17-01 the lad could use.

5 shot bolt action with detachable mag (don't loose it though, they're impossible to find lol), can loan it with a Tasco scope or leave it iron sights

-Indy

[geoffm]

Anyone in Auckland got a .22 Youth Rifle my little man could have a crack with. It'll be a few weeks till we're ok to try it out but any loaners would be appreciated and I promise it'll come back as clean or cleaner than when you part with it.

Got a single shot Savage 3B and 3C somehere with iron sights.
Nice and light,and small.
I assume you have a firearms license....

[ManDownUnder]

cheers guys - got it sorted now. Me and little Mr man are off on an adventure in a few weeks with a man named Chris...

[The Pastor]

i have the norinco jw15, but its probably too big?

[wbks]

I keep reading little bits about certain rifles not being able to shoot a certain type of ammo even though it's the same caliber. I can see why you wouldn't want to shoot supersonic on a silenced rifle, but why not certain types of ammo for any other?

[jono035]

The only things you really have to worry about are +P loadings for pistols and the distinction between sport cartridges like the .308 winchester and their military counterparts the 7.62x51 NATO. Either cartridge will chamber in a rifle designed for either cartridge, but the military cartridge develops much higher pressure (more powerful round) so a 7.62x51 NATO cartridge in a .308 winchester rifle is dangerous...

The other distinction is for semi-auto rifles. Some semi-auto pistols/rifles don't feed subsonic ammo well because there isn't enough energy to cycle the bolt. This can be fixed by lightening the bolt/installing a softer return spring...

With target barrels on .22s, some have rifling running right back to the chamber, so the bullet gets started into the rifling by the bolt closing. Slightly oversized bullets like subsonic ammo can cause the bolt not to close properly.

The first one is something to be careful of, the second 2 are nothing but annoying.

[wbks]

I see... So I'm having trouble finding places to shoot... Longer range shooting just interests me more, but I can only find up to 50 meter ranges on the net. Theres only a 350 meter public domain paddock down the road but there's no hill or anything behind it and people probably wouldn't like a rifle booming so close. Wish I lived on some land around the coromandel or something!

[jono035]

Yeah, I'd love to do more long range shooting, but .22LR at 50-100M definitely still has its challenges... If you have a deerstalkers range near you, they should have longer ranges?

This is my target gun, Ruger 10/22... Bushnell 4-24x50 scope with adjustable objective, Green Mountain 18" Bull Barrel, Volquartsen aftermarket trigger/action components, harris bipod.

Lot of fun to shoot, I can get it down to 2" groups at 100m but it gets pretty ammo dependent quite quickly.

[Drunken Monkey]

Forget a military rifle if accuracy is number one.

Get a nice .223.

I hear Savage are pretty good for value

Edit: I see you linked to a Savage Stevens rifle. See if you can get one with the accu-trigger, it's adjustable :)

-Indy

True, he didn't specify high accuracy first up, just wanted a reasonably sized cal that wasn't expensive. Pretty much leaves a few bolt action options to keep the cost below $1K for the rifle.

My cruddy old .243 still shoots very straight, despite the condition of the stock I have no trouble hitting things that don't move at pretty much any range I come across on the farm. The fact that I can't hit moving targets as often is due to my lack of skill than any shortcomings of the rifle.

The parker hale cost me $700. I just use off the shelf ammo, $38 for 20 rounds. Maybe I could get cheaper but I'm used to these federals and they are consistent enough for me. Dunno what quality you'd be looking at for under $1 per round though mate. In the end $2 or $3 a round is nothing for me, I wouldn't fire more than 25-30 rounds a whole trip and that's including the ones I waste. I probably only fire about 10-12 "shots in anger" at the most.

The only thing is you pretty much get what you pay for.

[wbks]

Nice! Did the barrel make much of a difference?
edit: Yea, drunken monkey, I'm seeing that now, and pretty much am looking at a savage. But looking at ammo off the shelf of 308 300 win mag are pretty much the same and the fact that there is no price diff in buying the actual rifle I'm tempted to just buy the win mag... But I can't help but think it would be a little like a dude that can't ride yet but turns up on the latest hayabusa lol Must be the gun equivalent of a squid?

[jono035]

Must be the gun equivalent of a squid?

Yeah, thats pretty much where I'm at with it all still... Just make sure you're familiar with the rifle (spend a half hour playing with it, working the bolt, inserting/removing the mag etc.) and if you've got the right attitude and can listen to advice then noone will care...

Drunken Monkey: It sounds like wbks wants to do more target shooting than farm shooting, so would probably go through ammo a bit quicker, hence the earlier suggestions about reloading with a cheapish press...

wbks: The barrel is the single biggest improvement on the gun. It completely changes it from a hunting/plinking gun to a bench-rest tack driver. It weighs a ton and makes the gun very nose heavy though. I shoot better freehand with my $300 stainless bolt-action Marlin... That said I've taken it out possuming a couple of times...

[jono035]

By the way wbks, dunno whereabouts you're based, but if you're ever in auckland hit me up if you fancy a blast with the .22s or pistols at the CSI range. Could be keen for a wander out to the Auckland deerstalkers range too, haven't been out there yet but wouldn't mind checking it out. Seems the only open 22 sundays throughout the year though, so not sure what that timing is like. They have outdoor 50/100/200m ranges though.

[wbks]

Was the barrel a different twist or just better quality? And this might sound a little funny, but can the average bolt action (the stevens/savage 200) completely break down and go back together without any tools, or what? Don't laugh... Got any better suggestions for a 223+ rifle?

I'm by paeroa, would definitely like a go on either! Not sure if there are restrictions on age for pistols, though? I'm 16

[jono035]

Don't laugh...

You'll never catch me laughing at an honest question from someone who will listen to the answer. And that's definitely not a stupid question.

The twist rate is the same as stock I believe, it's just the extra material that makes the difference. The smaller/lighter barrels bend and vibrate a lot as the bullet is moving down them, so the actual angle the bullet comes out of the barrel on varies. The more metal there is in the barrel, the stiffer it is and the better the accuracy. Not sure why the bigger rifles don't have the same issue but at a guess I'd say faster bullet means they leave the barrel before the vibrations can really set in.

As for breaking it down it is pretty gun-dependent, but most you can remove the bolt without any tools at all which is usually good enough for routine maintenance. Can be a bit trickier if you want to pull the trigger and bolt completely to pieces, but normally possible with a minimum set of tools. Screwdrivers and allen keys are really the extent of it, and those are things you should have anyway! Either way, if you're dropping the best part of a k on the gun, the tools to maintain it won't make a difference. Don't forget to budget for a gun bag or hard case as well as a cleaning kit (solvent/oil/rod/cloth patches). Should be about an extra $100 for all that.

Well Paeroa is a decent hike away, but if you're in Auckland for whatever then drop me a line.

As long as you're supervised with pistols and aren't doing anything questionable, you're fine. Basically it amounts to not getting over-excited and always keeping the barrel pointed within the range safety envelope. Attitude is more important than age to be sure.

As for rifle suggestions I'd be pretty well useless, number of times I've shot any rifles bigger than a .22 are countable on one hand.

Out of interest have you shot much before and what calibres?

[wbks]

At friends farms etc every once in a while with .22's, a go or two on 12ga clay birds and half an hour (maybe more, not sure) with a 308 a while ago. Wasn't really familiar with guns at the time, but looking at some of the old 303's on trademe, I'm pretty sure I've shot a few times with that, also. Nah, If I've got nothing to do (which is most of the time around here) than it's not really that far.

[scumdog]

Also fat barrels don't warm up as quick as skinny ones.

and a hot barrel has a different p.o.i to a cold one.

[jono035]

Yeah, clay birds are fun... I'd love to get into that as well... Only done it once, probably 10 years ago now lol.

I figure centrefire rifle is fine if you've got the space to do it or are near a range with good opening hours. Otherwise you're gonna be finding it tough. If you've got access to that mates farm to go shooting reasonably often then make the most of it. See if you can get a semi-permanent target butte and shooting area set up etc.

I'd love to be shooting a .308 at 200m targets, that'd be great fun. That isn't really a possibility for me while I'm in Auckland though, and buying a gun that I can only use every couple of months when I head up to my parents place is a bit much. For me I think I'd get more enjoyment out of shooting 100-200 rounds of .22 ammo whenever I feel like it than I would shooting 20-30 rounds of centrefire ammo once a month.

At least, that's why I ended up with my last purchase being a .22 pistol...

And yeah, I guess it probably seems closer when you're actually in Paeroa and bored! :lol:

[jono035]

Yeah, very true scumdog, although I haven't found that to be too much of an issue with mine. Maybe more of an issue with cartridges with a bit more grunt behind them? That said, there have only been a few times where I've been gung-ho enough to put enough rounds through the barrel to get it seriously hot, and I doubt I was paying that much attention to the accuracy at that point...

[wbks]

Sounds fair enough. Hey, I was just looking and there are a few new $500 pistol's and the ammo being cheaper than 223 and regular indoor ranges that might be a good idea. But do you know how old you have to be, or how long you are supposed to have your a cat before you apply for a pistol endorsement?
I've only really seen 9mm pistols on gun city, no .22's

[jono035]

Guncity has a heap of .22 pistols, including a couple that are pretty much identical to mine.

For a B cat endorsement (pistols) you need to have an A category license, become a member of Pistol NZ and an approved gun club then complete 12 visitor shoots in 6 months. Once you've done that you're then allowed to apply for the endorsement, which consists of getting a gun safe (costs about $300-400 for a pistol safe and needs to be bolted to the floor and hidden) and passing a stricter background check, with more/different character references. A lot of people do their E-cat endorsement (MSSA weapons) at the same time, as the background check is identical as far as I know, it doesn't cost any extra to apply but you do need a full size gun safe (which is why I couldn't do it, stupid rental property) which will cost you a good few hundred more than a pistol safe. Don't know if there are any specific age requirements... arms code may mention it?

Pistol NZ website has a list of ranges, maybe there is one nearby? And pistol shooting is a hell of a challenge. Beware though, the ammo may be cheaper, but you use a hell of a lot more of it. Standard trip to the range is maybe 25x 9mm and 100 .22, but that is mostly because I prefer to take my time. Plenty of guys there who go through 50-100 of the big rounds.

[jono035]

Ahhh, guncity don't have any new .22 pistols listed on their website (they'd have some somewhere no doubt) but do have quite a few listed as second hand.

http://www.guncity.co.nz/semi-auto-xidg10573.html is the second hand pistols page.

http://www.guncity.co.nz/22-ruger-mk2-stainless-10-xidp159121.html and http://www.guncity.co.nz/9mm-beretta-92fs-4.9-15rnd-stainless-xidp166091.html are pretty much the same as the 2 pistols I have.

[wbks]

Challenge is fine! So visitor shoots are shooting club supplied pistols? Sounds pretty pricey signing up to all those clubs and stuff though, so might pass the point of price when I just want to get out and shoot with something. Plus the ammo, like you said.

[jono035]

Yeah, visitors can use the club supplied pistols, although I don't think you actually have to shoot pistols to get your license, just show up to the club shoots. If you know someone who attends the same shoots you do regularly and has a B-cat license, it is perfectly fine for you to have them buy the gun and hold onto it until you have your B-cat. That's what I did with my 9mm, bought it from one of the range officers who was there every week and just got him to cart it around for the few months it took to get my license.

It can get expensive quick, but if the range is like CSI then there will be a yearly membership and thats all you need to pay, I think it is around $200 a year? Also pistol NZ membership is $70 a year. Apart from that, gun price/ammo quantity is pretty much up to what you want to achieve with it, as per usual.

Now that I think about it, pistol shooting is pretty bloody pricey... I guess you just have to set a target price, weigh up your options and think about what will get you the most enjoyment, big pistol/rifle and fewer rounds or small pistol/rifle and lots of rounds..

Btw, with that gun you were looking at before, also don't forget to factor in cost of scope+rings... You should really be spending at least half what the gun is worth on the scope for target shooting...

[wbks]

You mean the savage? It was with a gun city scope with that price but I figured I would just leave it as it was for at least a while. Actually, I just saw this, looks like a pretty target dedicated rifle for quite cheap. But does the single shot matter much? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-223978840.htm

[jono035]

Single shot is fine... Can be a bit of a pain for hunting where sometimes a quick follow-up shot is useful... Nice looking gun. Was going to ask if you were looking at trademe, you can get some really good bargains there from people who just don't use their rifles anymore and are looking for some quick cash...

There were a few 7mm08 and .243 rifles on there which may be better for targets? They're the same case as the .308 but necked down for smaller calibre so faster projectile, flatter trajectory. Recoil would be a bit lighter, but still in the same ballpark as a .308 I saw somewhere that those 2 cartridges are good ones to reload too because they're not as hard on the brass, meaning your brass lasts longer and therefore reloads are cheaper... Of course, all that is just from looking around at forums and stuff, anyone out there have much experience with reloading those rounds?

[wbks]

Yea have seen a few 7mm on there and 243 but they're still atleast a grand without a scope, and at model 44 is only 750 so I figured that leaves a couple hundred for a scope. Whats the deal with scopes? Just buy the biggest scope that can be mounted to your rifle?

[jono035]

Scopes are a bit of a curly one really. You do get what you pay for, and sometimes a better quality lower magnification scope will be better than a cheaper scope with bigger numbers (magnification, objective lens size)...

If you're buying a 2nd hand rifle, most of the time it'll have a scope on it... Get used to shooting that first and decide where to go from there... More expensive scope will have clearer optics, bigger objective will be better in lower light conditions, more magnification will be better at longer ranges and adjustable objective will be good on higher magnification scopes... You're better off having used one for a bit as a base line I'd guess... At a rough guess I'd say something along the lines of a max of 12x magnification, 50mm objective and costing around $300-400? Adjustable objective is nice if you can find one in your price range that wouldn't seem too much of a quality trade-off. Get steel rings (not alloy). Stay away from anything that isn't a name-brand scope on trademe unless you can test it first, I've seen some shockers. Also stay away from anything with an illuminated reticle, it's pretty much a gimmick.

[geoffm]

As for breaking it down it is pretty gun-dependent, but most you can remove the bolt without any tools at all which is usually good enough for routine maintenance. Can be a bit trickier if you want to pull the trigger and bolt completely to pieces, but normally possible with a minimum set of tools. Screwdrivers and allen keys are really the extent of it, and those are things you should have anyway! Either way, if you're dropping the best part of a k on the gun, the tools to maintain it won't make a difference. Don't forget to budget for a gun bag or hard case as well as a cleaning kit (solvent/oil/rod/cloth patches). Should be about an extra $100 for all that.



I have a Norinco copy of the Browning takedown 22 rifles - the original Brownings are better made but they cost real money too.
It is a bit fussy on ammo, but otherwise ok - and it breaks in half with a half turn on the barrel and fitted into the BMW panniers. Not super accurate - my bolt action will shoot rings around it.
Guncity had some in stock.

[wbks]

Will one scope fit all rifles? Like this? http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Firearm-parts/Scopes/auction-223388812.htm

[Indiana_Jones]

Will one scope fit all rifles?

Depends on the mounts really, normally yes

-Indy

[jono035]

Generally, yeah. All the scopes you'll be looking at are 1" wide across the middle section of the tube, which is where you clamp the scope to the gun. The clamps are the 'rings' which fit into grooves either in the top of the receiver (part that houses the bolt) or a mounting rail bolted to the top of the receiver.

The only tricks are making sure the rings match the type of rail they're mounting to (weaver rail, dovetail grooves etc.) and that the mounts are high enough so that the far end of your scope doesn't bottom out on the barrel (only a problem with scopes with large objective lenses, i.e. the ones with the big forward-ends)

[jono035]

Tasco is one of the decent budget brands of scope, that's a pretty well specced scope for the money, to be sure. Pays to know whether your rifle is going to have a scope with it or not though lol

[jono035]

I have a Norinco copy of the Browning takedown 22 rifles - the original Brownings are better made but they cost real money too.
It is a bit fussy on ammo, but otherwise ok - and it breaks in half with a half turn on the barrel and fitted into the BMW panniers. Not super accurate - my bolt action will shoot rings around it.
Guncity had some in stock.

This was in relation to a bolt action centerfire, something like a .308 perhaps but I have looked at those norinco rifles and wondered about them, fitting into the paniers is a distinct advantage! :D

[jono035]

wbks: With that single shot rifle you linked before, it mentioned that it has weaver bases, so you'd get a pair of weaver scope rings and you'd be fine for any scope that has a 1" tube, which is most of the scopes out there more or less... You can see the bases in the 2nd photo, 2 of them perched on top of the receiver, either side of the cutout.

http://www.guncity.co.nz/gun-city-1-weaver-rings-xidp217171.html or something similar is what you'd use to mount the scope to the base. Steel is recommended for target guns, but probably doesn't matter if you're trying to put a gun together cheapish though, the extra $70 you'd spend on steel rings would be better put to use buying more ammo to practice with or a slightly better gun/scope... Can probably find a better deal than those guncity ones also

[wbks]

Thanks for that. About the flatter trajectory of the lighter 7mm08 or 243 bullet... What range would be expected? Does that mean you would adjust the scope more, or just aim above of the target slightly with the .308?

[jono035]

I guess that doesn't really matter all that much at the type of ranges you're likely to be shooting at, but basically the flatter the trajectory, the less important adjusting for range is. If you shooting at a fixed range and slowly dialing your scope onto the target then this doesn't matter all that much. For hunting it is more important as it removes another source of inaccuracy (the range estimation). If your bullet is dropping too fast at the target though (think .22 at 100m+) then basically you're going to get a lot of up/down variation in your target, because small differences in angle at the muzzle mean big differences in height on the target.

Also, faster bullets have less time to be affected by any wind but may get blown around more... not 100% on that count...

[wbks]

Actually, working out how to shoot based on wind speed/flight time/trajectory sounds like more fun than just keeping still and squeezing... I'm guessing a 180gr projectile would be a more consistant round at longer ranges, it probably wouldn't be as affected by wind as a 140 but 140 would have a flatter trajectory? But yea, probably wouldn't affect it that much untill you get out to almost a K away is my guess. With a 27 inch barrel I would assume that rifle is pretty accurate?

mod 44 set up- Cheap ammo, good looking, large caliber, looks like good quality, and is pretty cheap. So I know the rifle for $750 most, scope rings at $50, scope for $3-400? So that's actually $100 more than these stevens rifles. http://www.guncity.co.nz/7mm08-stevens-200-scoped-package-xidp160586.html or a 223 or even 308 equivalent. Or a 300 winmag for same price as the mod 44. Only thing is, even though the mod44 is only a single shot, so it can't be used for hunting, it has a 27 inch barrel which I would assume is more accurate than the savage.

[jono035]

Depends on the cross-section of the projectile too and a number of other things. Accounting for the wind is all fine and good in theory, but when you get gusty, coastal wind like you do here, it's more often than not a crapshoot as far as I know...

[jono035]

And if that kind of stuff sounds like more fun, then .22 at 100m might be more your thing? the bigger calibres don't get there until well beyond 200... I keep mentioning this because a .22 is a good place to start, cheap, forgiving of ammo quality etc. Doesn't make a thunderous boom, but get as much fun out of cheap and easy as you can before moving up to bigger guns, because once you do it's harder to go back. Better way to learn good shooting skills too, making the most out of a .22.

[wbks]

A thunderous boom is a negative? lol, only if I plan on shooting near town I guess, but there are only deer stalkers ranges around which probably already have a few loud rifles going? I guess a quiet rifle could let me actually shoot near by without annoying the people in their houses, but it's still little irresponsible to shoot without any hills behind the target when there is a highway half a K or so behind? I mean, even 22's can still injure someone at that range if you're unlucky enough, right?

[jono035]

Didn't mean the boom as a negative, although it can be... And yeah, with a .22 is more forgiving of where you're shooting it, with 1-2km being the max range possible, and much less if you make sure you keep your firing angles low.

[jono035]

You can use a single shot for hunting perfectly fine, you've just got to be more aware of the fact that you've got a longer reload time and longer target re-acquisition time. I'd still say just keep an eye out on trademe and don't rush it. You'll be able to pick up a bargain if you spend a few weeks watching what pops up and what things go for, and starting out with a gun with the scope already mounted will be the most economical.

[wbks]

So what do you think: .308 model 44 or 7mm08/.308/233 savage?

[jono035]

Personally I'd be watching trademe and waiting for a bargain to pop up. Also I wouldn't be too worried about building a hard-out custom target gun if you're only going to be shooting it at around 200m, get a good quality 2nd hand rifle off trademe and spend the difference on the other bits that'll be useful (50x mag spotting scope for instance).

[Drunken Monkey]

Thanks for that. About the flatter trajectory of the lighter 7mm08 or 243 bullet... What range would be expected? Does that mean you would adjust the scope more, or just aim above of the target slightly with the .308?

.243 should be good up to 600m, give or take. So I hear. I haven't shot at anything past about 200m, it only drops a couple inches at that range.

For range/target shooting you'd probaby want to adjust the scope to keep the bullet's point of impact where the cross hair is.

[scumdog]

.243 should be good up to 600m, give or take. So I hear. I haven't shot at anything past about 200m, it only drops a couple inches at that range.

For range/target shooting you'd probaby want to adjust the scope to keep the bullet's point of impact where the cross hair is.


Hmm, 600m for a 243?

Barrel stretch comes to mind..<_<

[jono035]

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ballistics/243_winchester.html seems to agree with you scumdog, best load there is a lightweight bullet with 4000ft/s muzzle velocity and it's still got 5 foot worth of drop at 500 yards (700mm at 460m)...

[frogfeaturesFZR]

I shoot a .243, magic calibre BUT any thing over 300m ? Forget it. Look at a .270/280, 7mm mag, or one of the new Winchester short magnums. Of course you could just shoot a .308 with boat tail projectiles. Hell you could spend squillions, or you could pick up a 2nd hand .308 target rifle for 4-500 dollars.

[jono035]

Yeah, wbks got me thinking I wouldn't mind picking up a centrefire target rifle if I see one come up cheap, especially one in a .308 derived case... Always the trouble of where to shoot it though, wouldn't have any problems at my parents place, but they're a good 4 hours drive away.

Whereabouts do you shoot, frog? A range or private land?

[Drunken Monkey]

Video of .243 hitting a steel target at 600 yards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ8qXiMSdXk

Hitting and killing are 2 different things tho. Target shooting doesn't require the bullet has much energy a POI.

I'm not saying I shoot anywhere close to these ranges, I'm just saying I've heard it can be done. There's some other stuff on there which is .223 at 500 yards, .308 to 800+

[Wolf]

Video of .243 hitting a steel target at 600 yards:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ8qXiMSdXk

Hitting and killing are 2 different things tho. Target shooting doesn't require the bullet has much energy a POI.

I'm not saying I shoot anywhere close to these ranges, I'm just saying I've heard it can be done. There's some other stuff on there which is .223 at 500 yards, .308 to 800+
I've heard from those who do it, that .308 is shot at 1000m in competitions - 1200x2400mm target apparently.

[Drunken Monkey]

Then I would have little doubt that hitting targets at 600m with .243 not unreasonable.

[Swoop]

I've heard from those who do it, that .308 is shot at 1000m in competitions - 1200x2400mm target apparently.
Google Wimbledon Cup, or looky here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wimbledon_Cup).
A target .308 can be zeroed at 700yds and useable out to the 1000.

[jono035]

Yeah, wasn't debating the .308, I've seen plenty of stuff about shooting it out to 1k yards... The best load for a .243 from those tables, the bullet is dropping pretty quick beyond 400m and has stuff all energy left... Still appears to be moving quick enough though so I guess it's doable if you don't mind shooting what is basically a volley at that point.

[Mr Merde]

45-70, 70 gns of black powder, 535 gn projectile, large rifle magnum primer, WW brass.

Muzzle velocity 1350 fps
Trajectory similar to that of a rainbow.
Drop of 50 ft at 1000 yards.
Accurate to 1 MOA at 1000 yards. (10 shots in 10")
This is with open sights not scopes.

Billy Dixon in 1875 shoit an Indian out of the saddle at 1500 yards with a 50-70.

Yanks are getting some amazing scores with BP and heavy bullets.

I have watched british BP shooters with muzzle loaders, shoot MOA at 1200 yards a t Bisley, Surrey.

If you look at a modern round eg .308

2700 fps at muzzle, 700 fps at 1000 yards.
45-70 BP 1350 at muzzle , 900 fps at 1000 yards, a loss of only 450 fps as opposed to about 2000 fps from the 308.

Bullet of 535 gns will be less affected by wind than one of 180 gns.

Big is better.

50 BMG has a bullet of 750 gns.


Chris

[jono035]

Bloody hell, that's pretty impressive... Something to be said for big, heavy bullets at long range I guess.

[Mr Merde]

Bloody hell, that's pretty impressive... Something to be said for big, heavy bullets at long range I guess.

We are still learning what our ancestors knew 120 years ago.

I recently read an article on long range target shootring in the UK in the 1890's.

The target was the size of a barn wall but it was shot at a range of 3 miles. Thats 5km.

Scores were telephoned back to the firing point, from memory the bull was 6' in diameter and they were scoring it.

Shutzen competitions were shot at 200 yards in a standing position and were scored on the number of vbulls hit. A bull not in the centre probably meant you were out of the running.

Black powder of today doesnt come near the quality iyt was at the end of the 19th century.

In the US Civil war the Confederacy armed thier snipers with Whitworth rifles in .451 calibre hexagonal bullets. They were accurate to 1000 yards. All thius from a front stuffer.

The Jacobs double rifle was accurate to 2000 yards and fired an explosive bullet.

[Swoop]

Found this on Te Net today. Interesting stuff, but they have been playing around with the .700Win Magnum for some time now.
It also confirms the 5.56mm info in Afganistan. Seems to be relegated to urban situations and out in "the bush" the 7.62mm reigns supreme.


The U.S. Army has ordered 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for its newly modified M-24 sniper rifles, as well as similar SOCOMs Mk13 models. The new ammo will cost about $1.30 per round. The .300 Winchester magnum will be ordered in minimum lots of 56,160 rounds (117 boxes of 480 rounds each). The entire 38.4 million rounds will last a while.
All this is in response to requests from snipers for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 30 pound .50 caliber rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). Thus the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.

The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The 300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. An improved version of the round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so.

There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Dutch snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. British snipers in Afghanistan are also using the new round, having converted many of their 7.62mm sniper rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.

This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Two years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.

The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)

The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.

The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed..

[wbks]

Are there any Pig/Deer/Goat hunters here?

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Yip I chase deer around, armed tramping is what I call it. I hunt the Kaweka's
mainly, but I've hunted Pureora, Kaimanawa's, Urewera's and the Kaimai's.
I generally only get to play with my centrefires 4-5 times a year. I shoot my .22's weekly at an indoor range. The trouble with Akld is that the nearest deer
are 2 hours away.

[wbks]

So what's the deal with places you can and cant hunt in? I was told that people hunt (or used to) hunt in the Ruahine Ranges? So if you were going to hunt there, you would just take a rifle, fluro vest (if only to put on what ever you kill before you get shot carrying it by another optimistic hunter lol), and some supplys taking care not to shoot too close to any houses or anything and go hunting?

[Wolf]

Yip I chase deer around, armed tramping is what I call it.
LOL. Yep, that about sums it up. I've taken a few armed tramping trips around Te Miro and some other place the name of which escapes me - sort of like the deer and goats, really.

Go for a walk with a firearm, look at the scenery, give up all hope and shoot the crap out of the emptied ammo box, carry the shredded box and empty brass out in your pocket, go home.

[Mumbles]

I found this this morning while looking at the Auckland Herald on line , I'm not worried as i got my "E" but would not be happy if i had a few of these and only a "A".
Link here http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10579653

Thousands of gun owners will be affected by a decision to reclassify many weapons as military-style semi-automatics.

The guns involved were previously defined as "sporting configuration" and owners did not need to notify police of the model of each gun they owned, as is required of owners of military-style semi-automatics.

The reclassification focuses on guns that have free-standing pistol grips, enabling the firearm to be used as an assault weapon.

Police superintendent Tony McLeod said he did not know how many owners and guns were affected, but expected it to run into the thousands.

New Zealand has more than 200,000 licensed firearm owners but there is no way of knowing how many guns they have because of a decision in 1982 to abandon a system of licensing each gun in favour of licensing gun owners.

Owners of military-style semi-automatics undergo more stringent vetting than for standard A-class endorsed licences, and are required to have a more expensive and secure safe for their weapons.

Mr McLeod said the reclassification was not an attempt to create a firearms registration system by default, but better tracking of these types of weapons may be a result.

Crown Law is understood to have been consulted during the reclassification process, part of which came into effect on June 9.

Those buying these guns now need to have the tougher E-class endorsed licence, obtain a permit to buy and advise police of the make and model.

Police had yet to decide how best to compel existing owners of these guns to comply, though there was likely to be a period of grace before owners faced the possibility of being fined.

Mr McLeod said it was "a definite risk" that some owners may not come forward because of the higher cost of the E-class licence.

The owner of internet gun auction site GunStuff, Mark Fogarin, said the reclassification was "causing much confusion and frustration throughout New Zealand's firearms community".

The change could cost some owners about $1000 for upgrading their licences and safety equipment.

Mr Fogarin said the change targeted licensed gun owners rather than criminals and would have no effect on people such as Jan Molenaar, who shot dead police officer Len Snee and injured three other men in Napier last month.

Molenaar's gun licence had lapsed, he was unfit to hold a licence and yet had an arsenal of 18 guns including military-style semi-automatics.

Police have traced three of the weapons to burglaries of licensed gun owners' premises.

Mr Fogarin said the flaw in that tragedy was that no check was made after Molenaar's licence expired to ensure he no longer had guns.

Mr McLeod said cases such as that of Coromandel Peninsula collector John Mabey added to the debate, but were not the reason for the change.

Mabey reported 132 guns stolen but later admitted selling 30 restricted firearms to unlicensed people and was sentenced to 21 months' jail. He is defending charges of having made a false burglary complaint.

Several weapons from his collection have turned up in criminal hands. One was used to shoot at police and another was believed to have been used in a fatal shooting.

[scumdog]

I found this this morning while looking at the Auckland Herald on line , I'm not worried as i got my "E" but would not be happy if i had a few of these and only a "A".
Link here http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10579653

Thousands of gun owners will be affected by a decision to reclassify many weapons as military-style semi-automatics.

The guns involved were previously defined as "sporting configuration" and owners did not need to notify police of the model of each gun they owned, as is required of owners of military-style semi-automatics.

The reclassification focuses on guns that have free-standing pistol grips, enabling the firearm to be used as an assault weapon.

.


Just what I said a few posts ago.....on page 191 of this thread.

A bit over the top imho.

[sAsLEX]

I struggle to see the actual difference a free standing pistol grip makes in the real world?

What would a criminal gain using a rifle with a free standing pistol grip vs a standard stock? It could be the same receiver and barrel, with the same accuracy and rate of fire... :mellow:

[scumdog]

I struggle to see the actual difference a free standing pistol grip makes in the real world?

What would a criminal gain using a rifle with a free standing pistol grip vs a standard stock? It could be the same receiver and barrel, with the same accuracy and rate of fire... :mellow:

Cos as usual dumb-arsed politicians never thought it through.<_<

Just glad none of them ever fly a plane I was a passenger in.:no:

[wbks]

Is there any real diference between a tactical grip like you can buy, which is basically a pistol grip with a bit of plastic connecting the bottom to the stock compared to a free standing pistol grip? Sounds stupid. Anyway, anyone answer my earlyer Q?

[Mr Merde]

Just what I said a few posts ago.....on page 191 of this thread.

A bit over the top imho.


Another fucking kneejerk reaction by our lords and masters.

200,000 gunowners and we just bend over and take it up the shitter.

We are one of the most lawabiding groups in society and one of the easiuest to prey upon.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

If you want to hunt on D.O.C. land you'll need a permit. Doesn't cost anything, pick one uo from your local Dept of Conservation. Valid for 3 months from memory. Invest in a Topo map of the area you're going to hunt.
If you join your local deerstalkers they probably have organised hunts.

[Indiana_Jones]

Didn't you know having a pistol grip makes you gun way more powerful aye.

it's like NOS for bullets.

Fucking retarded politics with BS feel-good homo knee-jerk make the stupid public happy shit.

-Indy

[The Pastor]

so whats actually changed? your no longer allowed the pistol grip with the connecting rod to the stock?

[scumdog]

so whats actually changed? your no longer allowed the pistol grip with the connecting rod to the stock?

Prezactly:mad:

[crash harry]

What about thumbhole stocks, are they affected?
Nice of them to tell us - are we supposed to just find out by the somehow method?
I could be breaking the law and not even know it :(

[scumdog]

What about thumbhole stocks, are they affected?
Nice of them to tell us - are we supposed to just find out by the somehow method?
I could be breaking the law and not even know it :(

No worries about thumbhole stocks - some really opened up thumbholes may be crossing the line though.....but remember it only applies to semi-autos though. (before some of you start flappin')

[wbks]

If you want to hunt on D.O.C. land you'll need a permit. Doesn't cost anything, pick one uo from your local Dept of Conservation. Valid for 3 months from memory. Invest in a Topo map of the area you're going to hunt.
If you join your local deerstalkers they probably have organised hunts.Is it really necessary to go on group hunts, rather than just by yourself or with another person?

[The Pastor]

Is it really necessary to go on group hunts, rather than just by yourself or with another person?
companys better, learn quicker.

noiser in the bush tho

[Mr Merde]

Is it really necessary to go on group hunts, rather than just by yourself or with another person?

If you are going out into the bush hunting for deer etc you would be stupid to go by yourself.

There is nothing in NZ's bush that will kill you except the bush itself.

Safety lies in numbers

[Mr Merde]

Just rerading a US gun mag.

US military has decided upon the .300 Winchester Magnum for thier sniper rifles as it will reach out to 1200 yards.

They originally were looking at .338 Laupa biut the extra weight in the barrel made the firearm too heavy.

They have ordered 38.5 million rounds of .300WM for their snipers.

Thats a shit load of ammo

The sniper rifle weighs in at 17 lbs

[wbks]

So theres no real strict set of rules about hunting? Just ask around where a good place to look is and get a perm(it) and go out there with some company?

[The Pastor]

So theres no real strict set of rules about hunting? Just ask around where a good place to look is and get a perm(it) and go out there with some company?
yeah mate, just dont be a dick.

tell some where you're going and when you'll be back, take a good day pack (food water map rope rubber matches wistle compass gps)

invest in a good gps, so you can track where you have been and any good places.

I marked a good spot once, came back during the roar and i'll be damed if i could make it back to that spot haha, dunno how we did it the first time but the ground was damn near impossable to walk through!

[Indiana_Jones]

dunno how we did it the first time but the ground was damn near impossable to walk through!

Noooooooo don't remind me about the black berry bushes! :no:

lol

-Indy

[wbks]

Ok. There doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot of info on it so I just wanted to make sure there isn't some unspoken hunters rule I might end up breaking...

[The Pastor]

the rules are

always have your rifle loaded around the campsite.

drink lots and lots of beer

point your rilfe at anyone you dont know

take coke instead of water

wear singlet stubbies and jandles in the bush!

[geoffm]

I struggle to see the actual difference a free standing pistol grip makes in the real world?

What would a criminal gain using a rifle with a free standing pistol grip vs a standard stock? It could be the same receiver and barrel, with the same accuracy and rate of fire... :mellow:

"First they came for the military style guns, but I did not protest, because I did not have an MSSA ..."

According to the Thorp report, having a pistol grip helps when firing from the hip, and this is why they are dangerous and should be banned. I kid you not - the report is online at http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/1997/review-of-firearms-control/review-of-firearms-control-in-new-zealand.pdf
A couple of obvious things - Thorp was a moron who did not understand guns and criminals but was desperate to find a reason that would let his political masters achieve their objectives, and obviously had never seen The Duke in a Saturday western with a 1873 lever action Winchester...
Geoff

[sAsLEX]

"First they came for the military style guns, but I did not protest, because I did not have an MSSA ..."

According to the Thorp report, having a pistol grip helps when firing from the hip, and this is why they are dangerous and should be banned. I kid you not - the report is online at http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/1997/review-of-firearms-control/review-of-firearms-control-in-new-zealand.pdf
A couple of obvious things - Thorp was a moron who did not understand guns and criminals but was desperate to find a reason that would let his political masters achieve their objectives, and obviously had never seen The Duke in a Saturday western with a 1873 lever action Winchester...
Geoff

Yeah I reckon my 38-40 would out hip shoot any stupid pistol gripped piece of crap, and I think they may have watched a bit much TV....

<img src=http://www.iconicphotos.com/manage/photos/Dave_Friedman/Rambo_cuts_loose_lg_291.jpg>

There is a sign at the USMC sniper school that reads "The average rounds expended per kill with
the M16 in Vietnam was 50,000. Snipers averaged 1.3 rounds. The cost difference was $2300
v. 27 cents."

Who cares about loose hip shots?

[Delerium]

What about thumbhole stocks, are they affected?
Nice of them to tell us - are we supposed to just find out by the somehow method?
I could be breaking the law and not even know it :(


YES!!! Thumbhole stocks will now be E cat. This is what the stupidty of this 'change in policy' is all about

[ouch]

YES!!! Thumbhole stocks will now be E cat. This is what the stupidty of this 'change in policy' is all about

http://www.nzrimfire.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=248&sid=78735020abca70915dbe266b0438d2e2 has pictures of the new "what is not allowed" by people who obay the law, must be a great way to catch the crims with no FALicence and make them hand in their rifles that are EVIL!

EVIL people who go over 112 km/hr bend over and pay, now if you got a EVIL stock bend over and pay (magically maaking the stock SAFE), unless you want to be a crim.

Almost getting to the point that all affected owners should just tell them (Govt/cops) to get stuffed? Oh Noes can't do that eh?

[sAsLEX]

Bugger was just looking at one of the Ruger 10/22 with the funky new stock design..... I must be a criminal at heart.

<img src=http://www.tacticalsol.com/store/pc/catalog/Raptor-ar_L.jpg>

That on a 22 no requires an E cat? Who the fuck lets these people make the law.

[Delerium]

its not new law. Its the cops interpretation of the law. It will take some poor schmuck to be charged and for it to be dismissed for this shite to go away. Its the start of registration. registration leads to confiscation.

[ouch]

its not new law. Its the cops interpretation of the law. It will take some poor schmuck to be charged and for it to be dismissed for this shite to go away. Its the start of registration. registration leads to confiscation.

Yeap, It has been fine for 17-18 years now, the police f up and someone (in this case a Police Officer, so sad for his family and friends) ends up dead, before this the Police rejected registration instead opting for our very good gun laws (IMHO the best system in use world wide). Look to Aussie to see what is going to happen here.

By the way I think Front Line Police do a darn great job

Trad me auction here:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Accessories/Other/auction-224734010.htm
Ruger Mini 14 Choate Dragunov Stock (Gun City)
Questions and answers
Ask the seller a question (You must login to ask or answer questions posted.)
Hey there, how soon till this will be E cat only? johnnyboy (135 ) 1:05 pm, Thu 18 Jun
Not sure check with your arms officer. Thanks TT 3:21 pm, Thu 18 Jun
Seller Comment: We ship every week day. Please get your orders in early to ensure delivery on time. Payments made by ASB bank reach us the fastest. Credit card and Pay Now payments reach us the same day. Team Gun City 12:35 pm, Fri 19 Jun
The Arms Act has been altered and this is a E Cat stock now cath100 (163 ) 8:02 pm, Sat 20 Jun
You are demonstrating an embarrassing ignorance and poking your nose in where you should not. The Arms Act has not been altered but you have been Blacklisted. David 8:19 pm, Sat 20 Jun
Actually the last person is correct. The Provisions of the Arms Act 1983 were altered and applied 1st June 2009 by Superintendent A W McLeod National Operations, NZ Police. One of those alterations were that Dragunov stocks are now E Cat nzprecision (1 ) 9:03 pm, Sat 20 Jun
Welcome to the blacklist too. The police cannot change law and this is not the place to waste my time with error or fear. DT 10:14 pm, Sat 20 Jun
But so that you are clear on the new restrictions, I'll send your AO a copy of your reply so he can explain it to you. Your black listed too nzprecision (1 ) 9:05 pm, Sat 20 Jun
Do I smell pork? 10:17 pm, Sat 20 Jun

Trademe have pulled all Dragunov E Cat auctions APART FROM Gun City (and 1 marlin tube feed semi-auto) who said that Trademe are only interested in profit?

[ouch]

That on a 22 no requires an E cat? Who the fuck lets these people make the law.

WE DO.

These are the people to email and voice your concern:

COLFO Chairman : john@colfo.org.nz

ACT Party : rodney.hide@act.org.nz

Police minister : office@judithcollins.co.nz

[ouch]

Are sellers on trademe breaking the law yet there are still a few items that are now Evil being sold.

There it is, for anyone to see, the law being broken by people selling "E Cat" firearms to A Cat holders, in the open with details of the law breakers, if they are breaking the law, and if these rifles ARE now E Cat, or if it is all uninforceable BS. Come on if a pistol grip is so dangerous the Police must act at once, in every case, won't someone think of the children!

Not my auction.

The resistance has started:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-225632567.htm

Ruger 10/22
Start price: $550.00 No reserve Closes: Sat 27 Jun, 10:37 am Listing #: 225632567 Starting bid: $Place Bid Auto-bid


Photo 1 of 4

View full size photos

Ruger 10/22 s/s barrel i have owned this rifle for nearly three years there has been one owner before me .I have fired approx 200 to 250 rounds .The pervious owner shot a few rabbits with it .It has a bushnell 4x32 waterproof scope 2x rotary mags 2x eagle mags all being 10 round mags and gun bag and orignal stock. This is for trademe who withdrew this auction last night this is a A catagory rifle Gun City are selling the same rifles so why dont you withdraw there auction .Ihave rang your help number 6 times all i got was the discontected signal so how are you to get in contact with you.I wont my listing fee too be rembursed please.

[jono035]

Trademe are pretty rubbish to get in contact with.

Anyone who is concerned that this change is unjustified (I was looking at thumbhole stocks for my target rifle a week ago goddamnit) should really write a letter (on actual paper, printed or hand-written) and mail it to their local MP as well as the people above. Explain what they are actually doing and what the actual effect will be, calmly and clearly. E-mails get ignored.

[ouch]

Trademe are pretty rubbish to get in contact with.

Anyone who is concerned that this change is unjustified (I was looking at thumbhole stocks for my target rifle a week ago goddamnit) should really write a letter (on actual paper, printed or hand-written) and mail it to their local MP as well as the people above. Explain what they are actually doing and what the actual effect will be, calmly and clearly. E-mails get ignored.

Hi Jono,

Was not my auction!

He has added these comments:
Just in case you would like to know,put this in it original stock and it is ok. From the 8th of June any semi auto with this tye of stock is classed as MSA which is E cat . Dont worry about what Guncity does worry about yourself. Check POLICE they will advise you. oldie3 (200 ) 6:42 pm, Sun 21 Jun
Thanks for that i havnt heard about the change can change back . How stupid all it is a clipped on piece of plastic it dosnt change the rifles rate of fire. 7:15 pm, Sun 21 Jun
Yes I Kow it sounds stupid a little bit different with .22s but clip any magazine more than 7 shot into into an A cat centre fire and it imediatley becomes an E cat. This new law is realy to pacify Namby Pambies like Phillip Alpers etc or we would have no guns at all. I hope he reads this as he was one at school. oldie3 (200 ) 8:35 pm, Sun 21 Jun
Im sure all those with no gun lience will abide with the law change this could be a new tui add YEH RIGHT. 8:41 pm, Sun 21 Jun


There are still plenty of auctions for Reclassified E Cat rifles and stocks on Trademe and on gun citys site there are many new E Cats advertised as A Cat.

I have heard Rob Woods In Christchurch has had this issue before the courts and won, does anyone have any info on this case?

The law says Freestanding Pistol Grip, not thumbhole only? A bar is not freestanding? I know what I think freestanding means.


Anyone contacted the Police about getting a E Cat? What "reason" have people with e cats given? I am of the understanding that the Police Hate giving E endorsements and even if you meet all the other requirments they will through back on the Reason 9 times out of 10?

[jono035]

Anyone contacted the Police about getting a E Cat? What "reason" have people with e cats given? I am of the understanding that the Police Hate giving E endorsements and even if you meet all the other requirments they will through back on the Reason 9 times out of 10?

I have my pistol license which consists of the same background check and similar storage requirements (same requirements for the safe, just a whole lot smaller) and I didn't have any problems at all (no convictions, no history of any psychiatric issues, no public comments about wanting to kill anyone etc.).

I've heard mixed things about the E-cat licenses... The people who I know that have them seem to indicate that you just apply and providing there is nothing wrong you'll get it. The outsider perspective seems to be that police don't like giving them out for any reason at all and have a policy to not increase the numbers of people with the endorsement.

I was told to just apply for an E-cat license at the same time as applying for a B-cat license as the background check and storage conditions are the same as well as it only taking an extra form to be filled out and doesn't cost any more if you apply at the same time. It was suggested that the best reasons to have while getting one were shooting service-rifle competitions and 3-gun shoots, anything along the lines of hunting/sport was a red flag right from the start.

[jono035]

Bruce Simpson (www.ardvaark.co.nz) has a few interesting thoughts on the matter (he's the guy who got in trouble for the DIY cruise missile) but no-one in the responses there could find any reference to any of the actual legislation... I couldn't find anything in my searching either so I'm betting it is some kind of external classification with a line in the legislation something like '<person x> will decide what external/internal features classify a weapon as a MSSA'.

I wonder if this only affects semi-automatics or whether it affects pump action shotguns as well, I saw a pretty nice looking ex US prison service pistol-grip pump-action shotgun at guncity a few months back... Didn't buy one because it would be a collector purchase, not something I could realistically use for skeet shooting or hunting without feeling a little conspicuous...

[ouch]

COLFO PRESS RELEASE

PRESS RELEASE

Immediate

Reclassification of ‘Sporting guns’ to military style.

The New Zealand Council of Licensed Firearm Owners, (COLFO), which represents the interests of legitimate firearms owners and is the largest voluntary shooting-related organisation in New Zealand was surprised and somewhat dismayed to hear on June 9th that the Police have decided to recategorise a selection of firearms that have been recognised and acknowledged as meeting category ‘A’ requirements since 1984, to military semi automatic category ‘E’ firearms (MSSAs). These (A category) are firearms that for the last 25 years (since 1984) the Police have had no problem in allowing to enter the country. Note that from 1984 to 1992 all rifles were treated equally with no restrictions on purchase; from 1992 some became E category and required the E endorsement.

This decision will impact on thousands of law-abiding firearm owners throughout New Zealand in several ways. The first impact will be the fact that what has been a legitimate Cat ‘A’ firearm will now become a Cat ‘E’ and thus make the possessor of such a firearm to be in illegal possession. Law-abiding owners who currently have only an A licence will need to apply for an ‘E’ endorsement at a cost of $200, undergo a more stringent vetting process, and have to purchase a suitable security cabinet at about $800 in order register the firearm. Failing this they will have to sell it at whatever the new market rate is.
To make such a change after 25 years appears to be pointless to COLFO, especially when, in announcing this move, Police Superintendent Tony McLeod states that he did not know how many owners or firearms were affected! Superintendant McLeod then states that there was “a definite risk” that some owners may not come forward because of the higher cost of the E-class licence. This is the same person who said five weeks ago (in relation to the Napier incident), “Nearly 50,000 people had not responded by the end of a campaign targeting lifetime gun licence holders to renew or surrender their weapons in 2002.”
Beyond this announcement which has now reached virtually all legal groups but possibly not all legal owners, the police have not said how this change is to be implemented and admitted today on radio that they don’t yet know.
COLFO as its name implies supports legal process regarding firearms and encourages all owners to obey the laws. In this case how are owners to proceed? COLFO asks is this effective law? In light of the above comments how can the police possibly go about identifying licence holders in possession of these newly defined firearms? How is all this to be carried out, when the police admit they don’t know? All this is going to do is throw confusion amongst law abiding firearm licence holders as it will only target them and not the possessors of illegally obtained firearms such as those in the possession of Jan Mollenaar.

COLFO is always available for consultation and is always prepared to sit around the table and work with anyone to make good workable legislation when it comes to firearms laws. We now invite the police to sit down with COLFO very soon to discuss the future of this change and its implications. This will help relieve the anxiety many up-to-now legitimate owners are feeling
Trevor Dyke
COLFO Media Spokesperson
0274 476 858

22 June 2009

[ouch]

Bruce Simpson (www.ardvaark.co.nz) has a few interesting thoughts on the matter (he's the guy who got in trouble for the DIY cruise missile) but no-one in the responses there could find any reference to any of the actual legislation... I couldn't find anything in my searching either so I'm betting it is some kind of external classification with a line in the legislation something like '<person x> will decide what external/internal features classify a weapon as a MSSA'.

I wonder if this only affects semi-automatics or whether it affects pump action shotguns as well, I saw a pretty nice looking ex US prison service pistol-grip pump-action shotgun at guncity a few months back... Didn't buy one because it would be a collector purchase, not something I could realistically use for skeet shooting or hunting without feeling a little conspicuous...

Thanks off to read what he says now.

Only semi autos. They are the Evil ones!

Oh, thanks too on the Reasons! I just want a stock to fit me hands for bunny blasting so I guess thats out.

[jono035]

Yeah, seems a bit pointless to me really, I could understand this if they had enforced this from the beginning, but to wait until now? Truly insane.

[scumdog]

No worries about thumbhole stocks - some really opened up thumbholes may be crossing the line though.....but remember it only applies to semi-autos though. (before some of you start flappin')


As I said here....

[sAsLEX]

As I said here....

umm well I went to buy a little thumbhole .22 today and nope that there is a nasty evil E cat MSSA I was told..... surely not me thinks?


Up to North Shore Police Centre, find me two rather confused Arms Officers. Neither of which could state what the new rules were and showed me the "Montage" and then shrugged their shoulders. Spent a good half hour chatting with one of the guys and he is flabbergasted at the state of things.

This is a MSSA.
<img src=http://r71camaro.homestead.com/10-22_Right_side_2_web_small_1.JPG>

The cop thought it would be A cat so I went back to Wills and checked again with Will himself, but it would remain E until he had something in writing from the cops.

[sAsLEX]

Yeah, seems a bit pointless to me really, I could understand this if they had enforced this from the beginning, but to wait until now? Truly insane.

Have you heard of the term "Knee Jerk"?

<img src=http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/Weapons230.jpg>


Trying to make up for the fact they fucked up by not checking him after his FAL expired/was revoked.

[Indiana_Jones]

For fucks sake.

They change their view of the law on a whim with no public consultation and they don't even bother to tell their own lads in blue.

Jesus wept...

This is gonna get messy real fast. A lot of "E-cat" guns are gonna 'go missing' soon....

-Indy

[EJK]

Hey Indy, I want to shop like this aye (Not the killing).

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zcCJ24MozOg&hl=ko&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zcCJ24MozOg&hl=ko&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[ouch]

As I said here....

http://i340.photobucket.com/albums/o338/ouch_016/mssaidchart2.jpg

Is the top image a thumbhole or not?
Are the others Freestanding military style pistol grips or not?
Arms code says:
Free standing military style pistol grip.

No mention of thumbhole, dragunov or indeed a metal bar but "Freestanding".

Main Entry:free·stand·ing
Pronunciation:\ˈfrē-ˈstan-diŋ\
Function:adjective
Date:1876
1: standing alone or on its own foundation free of support or attachment <a freestanding wall>
2: independent 1 ; especially : not being part of or affiliated with another organization <a freestanding clinic> <a freestanding city> <a freestanding computer store>


Has anyone found out whom had the concerns referred to in the original Police release and what those concerns were?

[Indiana_Jones]

Hey Indy, I want to shop like this aye (Not the killing).



But if I don't then I'd have to PAY for the guns!

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

and fuck me, 3000 posts!

what a thread!

-Indy