The firearm thread

[Mr Merde]

i have a desk which my rifles lay on top of.


Inside a stout room , inside a vault,

[Wolf]

Inside a stout room , inside a vault,
Mine are on display... in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard!"

[Drunken Monkey]

And keep your ammo, magazines, bolts etc seperate from the firearms.

Just makes it that little more safe and they do look more favourably on someone who has thought this far ahead.

Whats the use in stealing a bolt action rifle without the bolt?

True. I keep my rifles on the rack in the garage, which is alarmed on it's own zone, and the ammo, mags & bolt in my foot locker in my room.

Still something handy about keeping the lot in a steel cabinet/gun safe, especially if you're in a rush to tool up and remove the zombies from your front lawn...

[wbks]

Hey, whats the story with all the small calibers like 10/22 22/250/22LR? Which is generally the best for targets and possum/rabbit shooting?

[jono035]

True. I keep my rifles on the rack in the garage, which is alarmed on it's own zone, and the ammo, mags & bolt in my foot locker in my room.

Still something handy about keeping the lot in a steel cabinet/gun safe, especially if you're in a rush to tool up and remove the zombies from your front lawn...

Precisely my point with respect to the zombies!

wbks: "10/22 22/250/22LR" well the 10/22 is a type of .22LR rifle made by ruger. For rabbits and possums go .22LR. It may not be big and fancy, but 15 round mags and cheap as chips ammo more than make up for that.

Please don't shoot possums with anything other than a .22LR or pistol caliber carbine (or shotgun if you are so inclined) unless you're damn well certain where the bullets are going to be landing. Not that I think anyone will be injured, just that if you break someones window or leave bullets on their roof, they WILL go spastic. The shorter range of .22 rounds (especially slower subsonics) makes them perfect for possums. Easier to suppress which means you're more likely to be able to keep hunting possums in an area given that it needs to be done at night.

I prefer bolt actions for possum shooting and bolt action/semi-auto for rabbits. I wouldn't advise carrying a semi-automatic for possum hunting, and you shouldn't need more than 1-2 shots anyway. Don't turn into one of the guys who shows up at a range complaining about how possums are really tough and take an entire magazine to kill :rolleyes:

[jono035]

I have a cabinet made out of MDF, I got my old man to make it.

Use 2 padlocks to lock it. Screwed to the wall.

It doesn't have to be over the top, just enough to stop an opportunist thief

-Indy

Yeah, that is the point that the arms officer made when he inspected my rifle rack. It isn't intended to stop someone knowingly targeting you and coming along with bolt cutters/hacksaw/angle grinder. It is only meant to stop someone who breaks a window or shoulders the door in from being able to grab them and run. Probably best not to store bolt cutters/hacksaw/angle grinder too close to them, too :)

[The Pastor]

Its like i how i use to chain my bike up in my garage, until one day the key broke off in the lock, so i grabbed the anglegrinder that was next to it to cut through the chain

[KREWZR]

Updated today (http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/)

[sAsLEX]

I am not sure if both my rifles will fit in their case with scopes.

Oh and new rifle might make me a MSSA wielding maniac!

[jono035]

I am not sure if both my rifles will fit in their case with scopes.

Oh and new rifle might make me a MSSA wielding maniac!

Thats a nice looking stock. I think that's pretty squarely on the list as MSSA I'm afraid <_<

[sAsLEX]

Thats a nice looking stock. I think that's pretty squarely on the list as MSSA I'm afraid <_<

Well I will enjoy my new E cat, and huge banana magazine to go with it!

[jono035]

Well I will enjoy my new E cat, and huge banana magazine to go with it!

Yeah fair enough. Those target barrels are great for rapid fire, take ages to get hot...

[Swoop]

You only need a lockable safe for other categories.
Just remember that "a lockable safe" still has to meet criteria. Thickness of steel and quality of locking system (5-lever deadlock, iirc).

Oh and new rifle might make me a MSSA wielding maniac!
Most definately not. The Act clearly states "free-standing" pistol grip!:done:

[scumdog]

Updated today (http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/)

Good, keep it up.

[Mr Merde]

Good, keep it up.

I agree with this.

I have never seen one person actually do so much.

Its payday today. I havent got a lot spare but I can at least send him a little bit of financial help.

Anyone else who is vaguely interested in your rights as a shooter being defended should do so also.

A few dollars from a lot of people helps.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

I agree with this.

I have never seen one person actually do so much.

Its payday today. I havent got a lot spare but I can at least send him a little bit of financial help.

Anyone else who is vaguely interested in your rights as a shooter being defended should do so also.

A few dollars from a lot of people helps.

Chris

Once my tax refund cheque clears I'm gonna send a few dollars his way :niceone:

-Indy

[The Pastor]

can anyone break his blog down for me? i cant understand what it says

[Mr Merde]

can anyone break his blog down for me? i cant understand what it says

Not being of the legal mind from what I can see is the following ( correct me if I am mistaken);

He has lodged an issue with the High Court (in Palmerston) that basically challenges the Police right to in terpret the laws as they see fit and make changes as they think they should.

By going to court he has forced the Police dept to also go to court to explain and defend their actions.

He has done this in respect of his particular rifle but it has repercussions all through the shooting fraternity if the court finds that the police have exceeded the bounds of what they can and cant do.

If the High Court finds that they are making their own laws then he can overturn all the police changes, It could go the other way though.


Have a good read of the blog.

Start from the bottom and work up.

E-mail him if you need an explanation or leave a question on the blog. He seems to repond well to both means of communication

[The Pastor]

oh i see, makes more sence now

[jono035]

Most definately not. The Act clearly states "free-standing" pistol grip!:done:

Yep, "(d) a military pattern free-standing pistol grip:" is verbatim from the Arms Act: Section 2, Interpretation (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1983/0044/latest/DLM72622.html) when describing features that a weapon must not have in order for it to be considered in 'sporting configuration' and therefore not an MSSA.

I took another look at the montage that was sent around and apparently I was remembering it worse than it actually is, you'll be fine with that stock.

The USC is still pissing me off though, those suppressed ones would just be buckets full of fun for possums/short distance rabbits/goats... Oh well...

[sAsLEX]

Yep, "(d) a military pattern free-standing pistol grip:" is verbatim

Military pattern means it must of been designed for a military weapon.


This is verbose but please bear with me….

I have been cruising around some of the forums and there still seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the term “military pattern free standing pistol grip”. One entry I saw referred to a “military style free standing pistol grip.” Most people seem to think that’s its easier to understand “free-standing” and view “military pattern” as being an obscure loose term for military style or appearance… something that is subject to interpretation. This is not at all correct and factually it is probably easier to define “military pattern” than it is to define “free-standing“. In fact the two terms go together – they are not military pattern – and – or free standing, The term “military pattern free standing pistol grip” does not refer to style or function; it refers to a specific and precise object. You know how the concise military waffle goes… combat sock, foot left, material wool, colour green, 1 of.

Beginning in the early 1700s, ordnance officials, from their headquarters at the Tower of London, divided the manufacture of firearms into locks, stocks, barrels, ramrods, and furniture—all of which they sought to purchase directly from subcontractors. Since different components for the same weapon were made in different locations, Tower officials oversaw the establishment of "Sealed Patterns" (sample firearms) to serve as exact models for gun makers. An Ordnance Office decree of 1722 led to a "standard army musket." The term military pattern is therefore a prefix to specific item of military equipment. In the case of the musket it was the Long Land Pattern musket. So the Long land was a military pattern firearm, the trigger of a Long Land musket was a military pattern single pull trigger. Now you can see it would not make sense to talk about a military pattern without associating that with something i.e.: a military pattern operational ration pack. Again - the two terms go together – they are not military pattern – and – or free standing,

For the purposes of the Arms Act 1982 s2, a “military pattern free standing pistol grip” is a free standing pistol grip that has been manufactured to military specification as part of a military pattern firearm. An example of a military pattern free standing pistol grip would be the military pattern A1 or military pattern A2 pistol grip furnishing an M16 military pattern rifle. The ABC company super duper rubber coated sporting free standing pistol grip that was not produced from a military pattern and is not intended for military use, is not a “military pattern” grip; neither is an SL8 stock or any other thumbhole stock, or pistol grip that is not manufactured to a military pattern.

The Arms Act quite specifically contemplates a pistol grip that is not a “military pattern free standing pistol grip”. If it did intend to restrict all pistol grips then obviously it would state “pistol grip” in the same way as it outright says “flash suppressor” The arms act is quite specific and refers not to any functionality or appearance; it refers to a very specific object. If your firearm is equipped with a pistol grip that is not a military pattern pistol grip of the free-standing variety then your semi-automatic is not currently classified as a military-style semi automatic – PERIOD!

You should also consider this – Armed forces specify (milspec) their military pattern firearms to comply with laws of international warfare. Do you seriously think the NZ Police can redefine a term that has a specific interpretation under international laws of warfare?

[jono035]

Military pattern means it must of been designed for a military weapon.

I agree, but bear in mind that this is currently only Richard's opinion that this information can be applied in that way. Until someone successfully used that defense in a court then it would be unwise to rely on that info...

Like I said before, it currently only matters what the police have stated they will find acceptable or not, and there are a lot of stocks that would be legal by the above definition that are illegal according to the montage released by the police.

Hopefully this will all get sorted out and we can forget about these stupid superficial trvialities...

[Indiana_Jones]

They better take my Martini-Enfield bro, that's an NZ army rifle

-Indy

[The Pastor]

They better take my Martini-Enfield bro, that's an NZ army rifle

-Indy
nah they are only worried about rifles accurate over 25m, so all yours are excluded ;)

[Indiana_Jones]

nah they are only worried about rifles accurate over 25m, so all yours are excluded ;)

Same with yours, they only worry about working guns ;)

-Indy

[The Pastor]

hey mines working, apparntly, just waiting on some ammo to test it

[Mr Merde]

hey mines working, apparntly, just waiting on some ammo to test it

So you have a rifle like me. Stopped making the ammo a long time ago

[Swoop]

Its payday today. I havent got a lot spare but I can at least send him a little bit of financial help.

Anyone else who is vaguely interested in your rights as a shooter being defended should do so also.

A few dollars from a lot of people helps.
Correct. I sent my donation through yesterday.

[Mr Merde]

This morning I was a little bored with work so I sat down and e-mailed the following shooting groups.

Urged all of them to support Richard in his endeavours.

IMAS,
SSANZ,
NZ NRA,
Pistol NZ,
NZDA,
Target Shooting NZ,
and Colfo

Brought the website to their attention and mentioned it was disgracefull that overseas groups show their support whilst in this land of sheep our governing bodies keep their heads down low out of fear.

Also e-mailed Ministry of Defense asking for the specifications of a "milirtary firearm" and if this was public information.

Richard I hope they come crawling out of the woodwork.

Chris

[Swoop]

I would truly hope that COLFO are assisting in any way possible.

[The Pastor]

sweet! this week my bank balance is finally out of the red!

Made a small deposit for the cause!

[Mr Merde]

Reply from IMAS
as below.

"Hi Chris,
Thanks for your email. The website users are aware of Richards work though the site forum. Hopefully our next branch newsletter will also carry some information as well to members who are not online or who are not already aware.
Thanks again,
Wayne"

[Mr Merde]

I would truly hope that COLFO are assisting in any way possible.

Just looking at his blog site there is no sign of COLFO etc. I thought I would give them a bit of a wake up.

[Mr Merde]

Just received a return message from John Dyer, he is no longer on the SSANZ committee so he has forwarded my e-mail on to the relevant person.

Good things do happen occasionally.

[Mr Merde]

Email jusrt recieved from the Department of Defense re my question as too standards in NZ for Militery Firearms and wether thye are in the "public domain"


--------------------------------------
"Chris I am forwarding your email to the New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF), as they are the appropriate organisation to respond to your request.

Please be advised the NZDF website contact email address is nzdfwebmaster@nzdf.mil.nz (blocked::mailto:nzdfwebmaster@nzdf.mil.nz), please email NZDF for future enquiries on this matter.

For information regarding NZDF contact:
New Zealand Defence Force
Private Bag 39997
WELLINGTON 5045
Main Phone: (04) 496 0999 <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Kind Regards

cc: NZDF
nzdfwebmaster@nzdf.mil.nz (nzdfwebmaster@nzdf.mil.nz)

Referred as indicated for NZDF response, thank you."
<o:p> </o:p>


<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>

[Mr Merde]

Response from the President of Pistol NZ

A little bit lost as to exactly what he is saying here. Maybe one of you could decipher it.

Chris

----------------
This Police policy does affect many pistol shooters (some positively!), but generally I view it as an extremely negative policy.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I am aware of this action, and other groups positions/actions also.
David Tomlinson<o:p></o:p>
Pistol NZ<o:p></o:p>

[Mr Merde]

Response from Neil Hayes of Hayes and Associates
--------------------------------
Certainly willI've been giving some COLFO hierarchy a hard time - if COLFO don't get serious on this one it will be the end of COLFO.<O:p></O:p>
Have attached the front page of our latest newsletter.<O:p></O:p>
Cheers<O:p></O:p>
Neil<O:p></O:p>
HAYES & ASSOCIATES LTD
P.O.BOX 188
CARTERTON 5743
Phone: 06.3796692
Fax: 06.3795316

[jono035]

Just sent my own e-mail to COLFO asking for them to further clarify their position on the issue and the steps they are taking in opposition of it. Should be interesting.

As for the response about it affecting pistol owners positively, I'm utterly baffled.

There is currently a bill being looked at that makes some changes to the Arms Act with respect to clarifying some of the language concerning the ownership and usage of pistols. Specifically it seems to clarify that it is legal for a non-licensed person to fire a pistol at an approved pistol range providing they are under the direct supervision of (general interpretation being able to be restrained by) a B endorsed Firearms License Holder.

It also has some changes with respect to high powered air rifles. Categorizes any air rifle capable of a muzzle energy over 40-something joules (a .177 hunting slug at 1000fps is 30 joules) as a firearm.

Other than that no idea at all. Anyone else? <_<

Edit: It occurs to me that maybe he was talking about the waiving of the application fee for the E category endorsement.

It also sounds like everyone else is slowly getting in behind Richard. I printed off a bunch of flyers to leave on the desk at the CSI range with his website details and a short blurb about the issue on it.

[jono035]

Just got an e-mail back from Gary Howatt, the chairman of COLFO (very prompt!)

------------------

"COLFO has been in dialogue with the Police, and we do not support the changes, and how they were made. The police are aware of this position. We however have managed to negotiate to have the $200 fee for E cat waived for the introduction.

We have legal opinion and could have gone to court and spent $60k with no guarantee of winning. If we had won then the police have the current support for a law change if necessary which would negate our court action. They can obtain an order in council that means parliament ( cabinet) just agree to change the clause, no consultation.

We are aware there is likely to be a new Bill this year Arms Amendment Bill No 4 and COLFO will rally shooters to submit to this Bill put our efforts and funds into lobbying the politicians over this which is likely to be more significant to all our member organizations.

I hope this helps you understand our position

Gary Howat
Chairman
www.colfo.org.nz"

------------------

That paints an interesting alternative on the subject. I'm not 100% sure I agree that the legal action is pointless as it signals that there are people out there that are passionate about this change, but from a legal stand-point it sounds like they're determined to pass it, one way or another. The other way of looking at it could simply be that COLFO, while not supporting the changes may not necessarily oppose them though...

[KREWZR]

"COLFO has been in dialogue with the Police, and we do not support the changes, and how they were made. The police are aware of this position. We however have managed to negotiate to have the $200 fee for E cat waived for the introduction.

We have legal opinion and could have gone to court and spent $60k with no guarantee of winning. If we had won then the police have the current support for a law change if necessary which would negate our court action. They can obtain an order in council that means parliament ( cabinet) just agree to change the clause, no consultation.

We are aware there is likely to be a new Bill this year Arms Amendment Bill No 4 and COLFO will rally shooters to submit to this Bill put our efforts and funds into lobbying the politicians over this which is likely to be more significant to all our member organizations.

I hope this helps you understand our position

Gary Howat
Chairman
www.colfo.org.nz"

Gary I think you should be careful about what you say to people.


"We have legal opinion and could have gone to court and spent $60k with "

Last time it was 25 - 50K .. how has this changed Gary? $10,000 is large amount of money to exaggerate.


"If we had won then the police have the current support for a law change if necessary which would negate our court action. They can obtain an order in council that means parliament ( cabinet) just agree to change the clause, no consultation"

BOLLOCKS ! You obviously know nothing about the Parliamentary process. Have you even bothered to read the Arms Act? Orders in council are regulations made by the Governor General and are only possible by the scope afforded the GG in the Arms Act. Changes in Legislation CANNOT be done by orders in council under the consitutional laws in our country. Gary you are either (a) bloody ignorant or (b) trying to bullshit people to cover your own capitulating arse. I have one word for you Gary -

RESIGN

[KREWZR]

Arms Act section 74

Regulations(1) The Governor-General may, from time to time, by Order in Council, make regulations for all or any of the following purposes:

(a) regulating the issue, renewal, and replacement of permits and licences and the granting of endorsements:

(b) prescribing the manner and content of applications for permits, licences, and endorsements and of other applications under this Act, and requiring such applications to be supported by statutory declarations and by such other documents or information as may be prescribed:

(ba) providing for photographs of licence holders to be affixed to or imaged into dealers licences or firearms licences or both and prescribing requirements in relation to those photographs:

(c) providing for applicants for firearms licences to pass theoretical and practical tests as to their ability to handle firearms safely or to undergo courses of training designed to teach them to handle firearms safely:

(d) exempting applicants or classes of applicants for firearms licences from passing tests prescribed under paragraph (c):

(e) prescribing conditions to which permits, licences, and endorsements shall be subject:

(f) prescribing or providing for the fixing of fees payable in respect of any licence, application, or other matter under this Act, the manner of assessing any such fee, and the other matters in respect of which fees are to be payable:

(g) prescribing forms of applications, permits, licences, endorsements, registers, notices, and other documents required for the purposes of this Act, or authorising the Commissioner to prescribe or approve such forms, and requiring the use of such forms:

(h) prescribing the particulars to be recorded by licensed dealers:

(i) making provision for the security of any premises at which a licensed dealer carries on business and prescribing precautions to be taken to prevent the theft or misuse of firearms, airguns, pistols, restricted weapons, ammunition, and explosives in the possession of licensed dealers:

(j) making provision for the security of premises at which any firearm or class of firearm is kept, and prescribing precautions to be taken to prevent the theft or misuse of firearms, airguns, pistols, restricted weapons, ammunition, and explosives in the possession of any person or class of persons:

(k) specifying for the purposes of section 29 classes of persons who may be permitted to obtain endorsements permitting them to have possession of pistols or restricted weapons:

(l) making provision for the marking of firearms with identifying marks before the issue of a licence or permit:

(la) declaring any firearm to be an antique firearm for the purposes of this Act:

(m) defining firearms either generally or for the purposes of any particular provisions of this Act:

(n) applying any of the provisions of this Act to rifles, guns, or pistols of any calibre that are not firearms properly so called:

(o) excluding any firearms or ammunition or parts of firearms or restricted weapons from any of the provisions of this Act:

(p) enabling the Commissioner to direct that only certain members of the Police may issue permits or licences or grant endorsements under this Act:

(q) conferring or providing for exemptions from any provision of any regulation made under this Act:

(r) prescribing offences in respect of the contravention of or non-compliance with any regulations made under this Act, and the amounts of fines that may be imposed in respect of any such offences, which fines shall be an amount not exceeding $400:

(s) providing for such matters as are contemplated by or necessary for giving full effect to this Act and for its due administration.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of any regulations made under this Act, the Commissioner may dispense with the payment of any fee payable under any such regulations.

[Mr Merde]

Just got an e-mail back from Gary Howatt, the chairman of COLFO (very prompt!)

------------------

"COLFO has been in dialogue with the Police, and we do not support the changes, and how they were made. The police are aware of this position. We however have managed to negotiate to have the $200 fee for E cat waived for the introduction.

We have legal opinion and could have gone to court and spent $60k with no guarantee of winning. If we had won then the police have the current support for a law change if necessary which would negate our court action. They can obtain an order in council that means parliament ( cabinet) just agree to change the clause, no consultation.

We are aware there is likely to be a new Bill this year Arms Amendment Bill No 4 and COLFO will rally shooters to submit to this Bill put our efforts and funds into lobbying the politicians over this which is likely to be more significant to all our member organizations.

I hope this helps you understand our position

Gary Howat
Chairman
www.colfo.org.nz"

------------------

That paints an interesting alternative on the subject. I'm not 100% sure I agree that the legal action is pointless as it signals that there are people out there that are passionate about this change, but from a legal stand-point it sounds like they're determined to pass it, one way or another. The other way of looking at it could simply be that COLFO, while not supporting the changes may not necessarily oppose them though...


Jono035,

Do you mind if I forward this answer from COLFO on to Neil Hayes.
He seems to know how these groups work and also seems to know who to forward information on to in order to get the message accross.

As said befor Neil fought hard to get pistol shooting accepted in this country and I know he is passionate about the shooting sports.

It would be also interesting to forward it on to those groups whos members use these firearms.

Nice to see a group that says its working for our benifit, suck up to the police and not do sometime as it is in the too hard or too expensive basket.

Chris

[jono035]

Jono035,

Do you mind if I forward this answer from COLFO on to Neil Hayes.
He seems to know how these groups work and also seems to know who to forward information on to in order to get the message accross.

As said befor Neil fought hard to get pistol shooting accepted in this country and I know he is passionate about the shooting sports.

It would be also interesting to forward it on to those groups whos members use these firearms.

Nice to see a group that says its working for our benifit, suck up to the police and not do sometime as it is in the too hard or too expensive basket.

Chris

Go for it, I sent an e-mail back to Gary saying that I would be spreading this info around and haven't received a reply asking me not to. None of it was given in confidence and it is with respect to a very generic question.

Edit: That newsletter linked is an interesting read Chris. Sounds like they've got their heads wrapped around the problem quite well! There are no problems with A category semi-autos in the hands of licensed firearms owners. Also the note about how there were no problems with 9 years of Labour government and then National comes along and hey presto, bizarre cosmetic nit-picking gun law change.

[Mr Merde]

Sent the reply to Neil.

This is what hew came back to me with.

"
Thanks Chris"
COLFO has a meeting tomorrow and hopefully they will get the message from the majority of the board members. Otherwise they may as well close down,<O:p></O:p>
coz the MSSA fiasco is precisely the reason they exist.<O:p></O:p>
Tomlinson's reply doesn't surprise me at all! This is exactly what the Poms thought!<O:p></O:p>
Cheers<O:p></O:p>
Neil"





Looks like we have just given him some more ammunition.

[Mr Merde]

Had a reply from the NZDF

From: SCRIVENER MIKE, MR [mailto:MICHAEL.SCRIVENER@nzdf.mil.nz]
Subject: Unclassified: Military equipment specifications
Chris,
please refer to the Arms Act 1983, which is administered by the NZ Police.

Regards
Mike Scrivener
Senior Ministerial Coordinator
HQNZDF
Tel 04 496 0037





</O:p

[Mr Merde]

My Reply


Mike,
Thanks for such a prompt answer to my request.
I have access to the Arms Act. This is not what I am after.
I was actually hoping to get the Military Specifications.
Everything in the military is to a pattern or specification including small arms.
When the military put a purchase or order in for something there is a very strict
set of specifications that it must comply to.
Having been in both the NZ Army and the British Army, being the son of an RSM and
the grandson of a WW1 veteran I have had this drummed into me since was a child.
If the military orders toilet paper it must conform to a specification. I am
trying to ascertain what these specifications are EXACTLY. Not what the firearms
act and the police interpret them to be.
Chris

[sAsLEX]

Well Gun City forgot to put my scope base in the box with the rifle....... and I am still waiting for them to send it! Not happy!

[sAsLEX]

My Reply


If the military orders toilet paper it must conform to a specification. I am
trying to ascertain what these specifications are EXACTLY. Not what the firearms
act and the police interpret them to be.
Chris

I will see if I can find the BR (Book of reference) at work which specifies our NZDF small arms.

[KREWZR]

The military pattern is individual to each item.. and now days the template is the military specification. ie: If you build a widget to milspec.. the resultant widget is a military pattern widget.

TRY THESE:

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/Krewzr/PublicFolder/m14r1.pdf

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/Krewzr/PublicFolder/m14r2.pdf

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/Krewzr/PublicFolder/m14r3.pdf

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/Krewzr/PublicFolder/mbunk.pdf

[Mr Merde]

I will see if I can find the BR (Book of reference) at work which specifies our NZDF small arms.

A copy (photocopy) of that woiuld be great.

Thanks Alex

[Swoop]

Heads up.

Another media poll on firearms ownership.

Please visit and vote!

http://nz.yahoo.com/

[Mr Merde]

Heads up.

Another media poll on firearms ownership.

Please visit and vote!

http://nz.yahoo.com/

The answer

Yes for aself defence, intrigues me as 350 people have answered this. Self defence is not an acceptable reason , in NZ law, for obtaining or hollding a firearm

[Swoop]

The answer

Yes for aself defence, intrigues me as 350 people have answered this. Self defence is not an acceptable reason , in NZ law, for obtaining or hollding a firearm
Yup. Another well thought out poll...:rolleyes:

[Mr Merde]

Reply from the NZDF

What is "due particularity"

------------------------------
Chris, the NZDF has a a variety of firearms. Accordingly, in terms of s12 (2) of the Officlal Information Act, I invite you to frame your request with due particularity, so that I can ascertain which military specifications will be most pertinent to your request.
Regards<O:p<O:pMike Scrivener
<O:pSnr Min Coord<O:p
HQNZDF<O:p
Tel 04 496 0037<O:p

[Drunken Monkey]

The answer

Yes for aself defence, intrigues me as 350 people have answered this. Self defence is not an acceptable reason , in NZ law, for obtaining or hollding a firearm

...but it's a truthful answer now, innit? ;)

[Drunken Monkey]

Reply from the NZDF

What is "due particularity"


Erm, a legalese way of saying "be concise enough that I can give you an exact answer without having to do much research myself".

So instead of "please give me the specifications for the small arms the defence force purchases", you may need to say "please give me the cablibre of these previous defense force small arms purchases: 123123, 123124 and 123125"...

IIRC

(IANAL)


Edit: further to this:

“Due particularity”
However, section 12(2) of the OIA (section 10(2) of the LGOIMA) states that a request must be specified "with due particularity". This means that the person receiving the request must be reasonably able to identify the information requested.

It is important that you describe the information you are seeking as clearly as possible. Sometimes, requests are made for large amounts of information because the requester does not know exactly what type of information they are most interested in receiving or does not know how that information is held by the agency. Requests which are unclear or are too broad may result in delays, charges, or even refusals.

[sAsLEX]

Reply from the NZDF

What is "due particularity"

------------------------------
Chris, the NZDF has a a variety of firearms. Accordingly, in terms of s12 (2) of the Officlal Information Act, I invite you to frame your request with due particularity, so that I can ascertain which military specifications will be most pertinent to your request.
Regards<O:p<O:pMike Scrivener
<O:pSnr Min Coord<O:p
HQNZDF<O:p
Tel 04 496 0037<O:p

Had a look today and have a list of all weapons in the NZDF and their NSNs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Stock_Number), the "military pattern free-standing pistol grip" of the M16 is an individual item and has its own NSN!

Need to check the classification of this information first before posting though.

[sAsLEX]

A few funnies

[sAsLEX]

A few funnies 2

[sAsLEX]

A few funnies 3

[sAsLEX]

A few funnies 4

[sAsLEX]

A few funnies 5

[jono035]

A few funnies 5

Heh, good old Beretta 92 there, would love to get a laser on mine, then I might actually hit stuff :p Not sure what that clown is doing with a desert eagle though... Can't think of a situation where you'd actually use one beyond shooting targets or plinking...

[sAsLEX]

Heh, good old Beretta 92 there, would love to get a laser on mine, then I might actually hit stuff :p Not sure what that clown is doing with a desert eagle though... Can't think of a situation where you'd actually use one beyond shooting targets or plinking...

posing? Intimidation?

http://www.moviewavs.com/0085412111/MP3S/Movies/Snatch/replicas2.mp3


oh Shooter is on tv3 now, sweet movie!

[jono035]

posing? Intimidation?

http://www.moviewavs.com/0085412111/MP3S/Movies/Snatch/replicas2.mp3


oh Shooter is on tv3 now, sweet movie!

Yeah, it is pretty good. Few oddities in it but all in all a hell of a lot better than your average movie for realism...

Saw a show earlier where a guy tried to shoot himself with a Beretta 92 with the safety on and the hammer down. The thing made a massive click when he pulled the trigger and the guy was surprised he was still alive. Pisses me off because you couldn't even cock the hammer with the safety on, let alone have the hammer drop. *mutter*

[wbks]

Yeah, it is pretty good. Few oddities in it but all in all a hell of a lot better than your average movie for realism...
Yea pretty good movie. I was just wondering, though... I thought with really top of the line rifles and skilled shooters, sub-moa is consistently shot at 1000 yards, rather than inch and a half like is bragged about in the movie?:Pokey:

Something else I have been wondering... How does someone make a very important and hard shot cold bore?

[sAsLEX]

Yea pretty good movie. I was just wondering, though... I thought with really top of the line rifles and skilled shooters, sub-moa is consistently shot at 1000 yards, rather than inch and a half like is bragged about in the movie?:Pokey:

Something else I have been wondering... How does someone make a very important and hard shot cold bore?

moa at 1000 yards is a ten inch circle as moa = minute of angle. Therefore the greater the distance the larger the angle, cheers Pythagoras!

Mil and MOA Range Formulas for Different Combinations of Reticles, Units of Height, and Distance to Target.



Height of Target (yards) x 1000 = Distance to Target (yards)
............. mils

Height of Target (inches) x 27.78 = Distance to Target (yards)
.............mils

Height of Target (inches) x 25.4 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............mils

Height of Target (meters) x 1000 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............mils...............

Height of Target (cm) x 10 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............mils

Height of Target (inches) x 95.5 = Distance to Target (yards)
...............moa

Height of Target (inches) x 87.32 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............moa

Height of Target (meters) x 3437.75 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............moa

Height of Target (cm) x 34.37 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............moa

Height of Target (inches) x 100 = Distance to Target (yards)
.............s- moa

Height of Target (inches) x 91.44 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............s- moa

Height of Target (meters) x 3600 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............s- moa

Height of Target (cm) x 36 = Distance to Target (meters)
.............s- moa

[wbks]

Oh, I thought it was just an inch as standard, but I have only heard this off of 100 meter shots so you can see how I got the wrong idea... :( Anyway, I can recall reading that there was a rifle tested (not target, .308 nato police issue or something) that was either getting sub moa or around one inch (once again, I thought MOA was an inch so I'm not sure). Considering 10 and a half inches at a little under a kilometer doesn't sound very accurate for miliatary/police sniping, I'm assuming it was under an inch at that range... Does that sound right?

[sAsLEX]

Oh, I thought it was just an inch as standard, but I have only heard this off of 100 meter shots so you can see how I got the wrong idea... :( Anyway, I can recall reading that there was a rifle tested (not target, .308 nato police issue or something) that was either getting sub moa or around one inch (once again, I thought MOA was an inch so I'm not sure). Considering 10 and a half inches at a little under a kilometer doesn't sound very accurate for miliatary/police sniping, I'm assuming it was under an inch at that range... Does that sound right?

The Remington 700P will shoot 0.5 moa out of the box but sub moa claims only really apply at a certain range as ballistics change considerably as the projectile heads down range.

Some projectiles will stay supersonic out beyond 1000m where others will drop through the transonic zone before that, and others take a few hundred metres before the projectile stabilises fully after leaving the barrel.

A human torso is about 10 inches across....

[Mr Merde]

Had a look today and have a list of all weapons in the NZDF and their NSNs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Stock_Number), the "military pattern free-standing pistol grip" of the M16 is an individual item and has its own NSN!

Need to check the classification of this information first before posting though.

Oh you beauty. It lkooks like the police have been selling the shooters of NZ a bill of goods.

They have been making upo their own laws for as long as the last firearms bill has been law.

I am a very lawabiding person but I really hate it when proven that govenment departments have been cheating those they are supposed to be working for.

Freedom of information act. We pay we have a need to know what we are paying for.

The US will have published the relevant document.

I'll search the interweb.

[Mr Merde]

Here it is

NSN 1005-01-453-6655 - ArmyProperty.com:
(Subcomponent NSN 1005014536655)

Subcomponent Nomenclature: VERTICAL PISTOL GRIP

[jono035]

moa at 1000 yards is a ten inch circle as moa = minute of angle. Therefore the greater the distance the larger the angle, cheers Pythagoras!

Mil and MOA Range Formulas for Different Combinations of Reticles, Units of Height, and Distance to Target.

Nicely explained, couldn't have done it better myself.

As far as I'm aware, a lot of the technique behind making cold-bore shots is being familiar with the rifle and knowing how the POI changes as the barrel heats.

[jono035]

Oh, I thought it was just an inch as standard, but I have only heard this off of 100 meter shots so you can see how I got the wrong idea... :( Anyway, I can recall reading that there was a rifle tested (not target, .308 nato police issue or something) that was either getting sub moa or around one inch (once again, I thought MOA was an inch so I'm not sure). Considering 10 and a half inches at a little under a kilometer doesn't sound very accurate for miliatary/police sniping, I'm assuming it was under an inch at that range... Does that sound right?

Normally when someone says sub-moa, they're referring to at 100yards (90m) which is a group with an inch or less between the centers of the two most spread bullets. This is not a measure of the absolute accuracy (where the bullets land on the target), just the relative accuracy (how close will the 2nd shot be to the first etc.). Getting the relative accuracy is a task for the rifle and shooter combined, but only the shooter can get the absolute accuracy down to what they want.

As sAsLEX (Alex?) pointed out, human torso is more than 10 inches wide and one of those long range sniper cartridges (or .50BMG) will keep so much energy that if you hit someone in the torso at range, they're stuffed, no questions asked...

Edit: The Cheyenne Tactical "Intervention" weapon system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CheyTac_Intervention) is what he was talking about, listed there as 15" at 2000 yards, or .75moa

[jono035]

"Today I have been told on good authority that the Police department have just classified a bolt action rifle as a semi-automatic. I have not seen the papers yet but when I do I will confirm; and ask if I can post copies up here. I hope that makes the apathetic "this doesn't really affect us" bunch sit up and take notice. Start preparing your Ruger M77 semi-automatic bolt-action military style hunting rifle for an E endorsement… here it comes!"

That is off Richard's website (http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/).

What. The. Fuck.

I dearly hope this is a misunderstanding...

[wbks]

No way, dude. That would just be RIDICULOUS... I mean, reclassiflying something based on an interpretation is fukd. But flat out reclassifying a type of firearm that has been around for over a hundred years and in that time known world wide as "Bolt Action" is beyond stupidity... Surely?

[sAsLEX]

"Today I have been told on good authority that the Police department have just classified a bolt action rifle as a semi-automatic. I have not seen the papers yet but when I do I will confirm; and ask if I can post copies up here. I hope that makes the apathetic "this doesn't really affect us" bunch sit up and take notice. Start preparing your Ruger M77 semi-automatic bolt-action military style hunting rifle for an E endorsement… here it comes!"

That is off Richard's website (http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/).

What. The. Fuck.

I dearly hope this is a misunderstanding...

http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/ blog not blod

[jono035]

http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/ blog not blod

Fixed, sigh. The one time I don't check a URL I type in manually...

[Delerium]

Oh you beauty. It lkooks like the police have been selling the shooters of NZ a bill of goods.

They have been making upo their own laws for as long as the last firearms bill has been law.

I am a very lawabiding person but I really hate it when proven that govenment departments have been cheating those they are supposed to be working for.

Freedom of information act. We pay we have a need to know what we are paying for.

The US will have published the relevant document.

I'll search the interweb.

Everything in NZDF has an NSN. Literally everything.

[Mr Merde]

"Today I have been told on good authority that the Police department have just classified a bolt action rifle as a semi-automatic. I have not seen the papers yet but when I do I will confirm; and ask if I can post copies up here. I hope that makes the apathetic "this doesn't really affect us" bunch sit up and take notice. Start preparing your Ruger M77 semi-automatic bolt-action military style hunting rifle for an E endorsement… here it comes!"

That is off Richard's website (http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/).

What. The. Fuck.

I dearly hope this is a misunderstanding...

The thin edge of the wedge.
The plan is to disarm us or make it extremely hard for us to hold firearms whilst arming themselves to the teeth.

I've noticed on TM that a lot more things now require you to input your licence number.

There was an antique shotgun crimping machine and you needed to do so for that.

Guess who are harvesting all the data from TM, not the Sally Army I bet.

Semi auto shotguns will be next, then lever action rifle with over 7 rounds in the magazine, bolt actions with muzzle brakes, suppressors, laser sights

Go on guess whats next you wont be far wrong.

Disarm the people and they are like sheep to they slaughter. Easy prey for the next errosion of civil rights.

Whats next. No warrants to enter your home. Sorry you all have firearm certificates, you surrendered that right. If you were a criminal they would have to get a warrant if they thought you had a firearm, as you already have a licecence any police officer has the right to enter your home at any time to "inspect" them.

George Orwell was only 20 years early in his calculations.

[jono035]

The thin edge of the wedge.
The plan is to disarm us or make it extremely hard for us to hold firearms whilst arming themselves to the teeth.

I've noticed on TM that a lot more things now require you to input your licence number.

There was an antique shotgun crimping machine and you needed to do so for that.

Guess who are harvesting all the data from TM, not the Sally Army I bet.

Semi auto shotguns will be next, then lever action rifle with over 7 rounds in the magazine, bolt actions with muzzle brakes, suppressors, laser sights

Go on guess whats next you wont be far wrong.

Disarm the people and they are like sheep to they slaughter. Easy prey for the next errosion of civil rights.

Whats next. No warrants to enter your home. Sorry you all have firearm certificates, you surrendered that right. If you were a criminal they would have to get a warrant if they thought you had a firearm, as you already have a licecence any police officer has the right to enter your home at any time to "inspect" them.

George Orwell was only 20 years early in his calculations.

Yep, and of course the elegant part of this situation is the same as for the internet censorship laws in the states. All they have to do is keep saying 'we're doing this for public safety! we're doing this to stop you getting shot by all the criminals!' and Joe Public will cheer them on the entire time. Hell, most people probably wouldn't realise, once it's all done and dusted, that this was even a stage in the plan. It'll just be time to sit around and reminisce about the good old days...

[Mr Merde]

Have you all noticed the anti gun campaign going on at the moment?

Obviously the news has carried a lot, Close up has delved into firearms issues, 60 Minutes has don bits on guns in the US 9negative of course) and 20\20 has done the same. The police attempt to introduce the new reclassified MMSA and now a bolt action as a semi auto.

We are being targeted. More specifically the general population is being subtly targeted with the anti gun propoganda.

[Wolf]

Have you all noticed the anti gun campaign going on at the moment?

Obviously the news has carried a lot, Close up has delved into firearms issues, 60 Minutes has don bits on guns in the US 9negative of course) and 20\20 has done the same. The police attempt to introduce the new reclassified MMSA and now a bolt action as a semi auto.

We are being targeted. More specifically the general population is being subtly targeted with the anti gun propoganda.
I hadn't seen the TV, so was not aware of the media propaganda, thanks for calling it to our attention.

Sounds like there could be some subtle whisperings going on to get the media on-side with the official "right way"

[wbks]

And sadly, any of you guys pointing out what they are so obviously doing will be either labeled "gun nuts" or "conspiracy theorist nuts".:(

[Bend-it]

Worse... biker gun conspiracy nuts...

Scum of the scum... If scum could shit, we would be the scum stuck to the underside of the toilet bowl cover, left from the scum's splashback...

Take to the hills!

[sAsLEX]

Everything in NZDF has an NSN. Literally everything.

unless its not codified yet.... which only takes fuckin ages to do so its likely a lot of new stuff not used by other militaries is NSNless

A list of stuff.
LAUNCHER GRENADE M203PI

LAUNCHER ROCKET M72 A6 SUB CALIBRE 21MM

MACHINE GUN 0.50 BROWNING M2 HB FIXED

MACHINE GUN 0.50 M2 HB FLEXIBLE QCB FN, MT TRIPOD, MT SOFT

MACHINE GUN 0.50 M2 HB QCB FN (NAVY), MPH SOFT MOUNT, ETC

MACHINE GUN 40MM GRENADE H&K (GMG)

MACHINE GUN 40MM GRENADE MK 19

MACHINE GUN 5.56MM MINIMI C9

MACHINE GUN 7.62MM L7A2 UK

MACHINE GUN 7.62MM MAG 58, FIX & FLEX, TRIPOD & VEHICLE MOUNTS

MACHINE GUN 7.62MM MAG 58M, (WINDOW GUN) RNZAF

MOUNT MACHINE GUN MK93 MOD2

PISTOL 9MM AUTOMATIC SIG SAUER P226

RIFLE 5.56MM IW STEYR

RIFLE 5.56MM M16A3 (M4)

RIFLE 50 CAL AW 50 ANTI-MATERIAL SNIPERS C/W SCOPE & MOUNT

RIFLE 7.62MM SR-25 MK II MOD 0

RIFLE RECOILLESS 84MM M3

RIFLE SNIPERS 7.62MM AW

SHOTGUN 12 GAUGE, BENELLI, MODEL M3A1 (NZ)

SHOTGUN 12 GAUGE, MOSSBERG R196A1

SUBMACHINE GUN 9MM MP5A3 MP5SD3 MP5KA1





MOTORCYCLE KTM 525

[jono035]

unless its not codified yet.... which only takes fuckin ages to do so its likely a lot of new stuff not used by other militaries is NSNless

A list of stuff.
LAUNCHER GRENADE M203PI

LAUNCHER ROCKET M72 A6 SUB CALIBRE 21MM

MACHINE GUN 0.50 BROWNING M2 HB FIXED

...

SHOTGUN 12 GAUGE, BENELLI, MODEL M3A1 (NZ)

SHOTGUN 12 GAUGE, MOSSBERG R196A1

SUBMACHINE GUN 9MM MP5A3 MP5SD3 MP5KA1





MOTORCYCLE KTM 525

Yes please, 1 of each. Put it on my tab...

I don't watch TV at all and wouldn't have known about that terrible 'Illegal NZ' thing if someone hadn't placed a link to it in this forum. Negative publicity like that is a difficult thing to counteract too. It's much easier and much more entertaining to produce shows spouting unsubstantiated and inflammatory messages about how firearms are the devil than it is to create something with the opposite message...

[scumdog]

Have you all noticed the anti gun campaign going on at the moment?

and now a bolt action as a semi auto.

I've missed that, please elaborate...

[jono035]

I've missed that, please elaborate...

If you're talking about the bolt-action as semi-auto thing then we're not really sure either. If you check out Richard Lincoln's website (http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com) regarding the MSSA reclassification and legal action against said change, he mentions it there but there hasn't yet been any more info.

[sAsLEX]

The NZDF intranet sit today had a link to the Police's new MSSA poster.

[Mr Merde]

The NZDF intranet sit today had a link to the Police's new MSSA poster.

Any chance of posting it ?

[sAsLEX]

Any chance of posting it ?

Its well past 1600 so no chance.....

it was this one http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/MSSA_AD_Low-Res.pdf

[ManDownUnder]

Its well past 1600 so no chance.....

it was this one http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/MSSA_AD_Low-Res.pdf

On the bright side - I see there's no fees on getting an E-Cat license till 31 March 2010...!

[Mr Merde]

On the bright side - I see there's no fees on getting an E-Cat license till 31 March 2010...!

Apart from the extra security precautions you have to impliment.

[sAsLEX]

Apart from the extra security precautions you have to impliment.

I wonder if my armoury on the frigate is E cat compliant.....

[ManDownUnder]

I wonder if my armoury on the frigate is E cat compliant.....

I'll bet it is... and I'd love to inspect it at any point...! (no - seriously...!)

[sAsLEX]

I'll bet it is... and I'd love to inspect it at any point...! (no - seriously...!)

Its well empty at the moment being in refit, but once we are armed to the teeth again I will be happy to show you about the ship.

[Indiana_Jones]

Just watched part 2 of that BS illegal gun show on TV2

What a joke.

-Indy

[jono035]

Its well empty at the moment being in refit, but once we are armed to the teeth again I will be happy to show you about the ship.

The storage has to be at your place of residence with absolutely no way around this according to the arms officer when I was getting mine otherwise I'd probably have an E cat now.

Sure, they've waived the $200 or whatever filing fee, but you still have to buy a $1000 safe and get it installed properly (bolted to floor and wall, if it is a wooden floor it needs a plate to bolt to that spans at least 2 floor joists). Not an easy thing to do.

I think I saw one of those posters up at CSI the other night...

[Mr Merde]

I wonder if my armoury on the frigate is E cat compliant.....

I feel quite jealous.
Those of us that have to rely on $1000 safes when the lucky few get $100 million safes supplied to the free by the gubermint, and they get paid to look after them.

[ManDownUnder]

Anyone want to break the bad news...

...building a fence now requires an E cat and all the trimmings...


It looks like this :ar15:

[The Pastor]

Anyone want to break the bad news...

...building a fence now requires an E cat and all the trimmings...
sorry what?

[Mr Merde]

sorry what?


And so you should be young man.!!!!!

[Wolf]

Anyone want to break the bad news...

...building a fence now requires an E cat and all the trimmings...
With extra pepperoni

and a small wheel - for no apparent reason...

[Mr Merde]

With extra pepperoni

and a small wheel - for no apparent reason...

to the right specification subject to change without consultation or regard to law

[Mr Merde]

Its well past 1600 so no chance.....

it was this one http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/MSSA_AD_Low-Res.pdf


Asa per sAsLEX's post here is the document in question

[Mr Merde]

Its well past 1600 so no chance.....

it was this one http://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/MSSA_AD_Low-Res.pdf

Sorry here is the document in question

[sAsLEX]

I feel quite jealous.
Those of us that have to rely on $1000 safes when the lucky few get $100 million safes supplied to the free by the gubermint, and they get paid to look after them.

500 million thank you very much......

And this is the message that was put up on the NZDF site


Information about MSSA firearms for individuals - 23 Jul 2009
The govt has announced a new definition of Military Style Semi Automatics(MSSA). While this doesn't affect NZDF business as such, it may impact on individual service members who have private firearms.




The storage has to be at your place of residence with absolutely no way around this according to the arms officer when I was getting mine otherwise I'd probably have an E cat now.

.

So I have to keep my weapon that is sooo dangerous at home?

And if I live on my ship?

[jono035]

So I have to keep my weapon that is sooo dangerous at home?

And if I live on my ship?

Buggered if I know! Would be an interesting question though, let me know if you ever ask an Arms Officer :D

[Swoop]

The govt has announced a new definition of Military Style Semi Automatics(MSSA).
This sounds weird. It is not the gubbinment that has made the call, but the police.
Smoke and mirrors, perhaps?

[sAsLEX]

This sounds weird. It is not the gubbinment that has made the call, but the police.
Smoke and mirrors, perhaps?

Yeah I laughed when I read that as well, knowing the background from this thread and some others on my hunting forums

[Mr Merde]

This sounds weird. It is not the gubbinment that has made the call, but the police.
Smoke and mirrors, perhaps?

This is easy to understand in a

POLICE STATE

Extreme political regimes always end up being run by the police forces.

Now where are we, facsist or communist?

[Wolf]

This is easy to understand in a

POLICE STATE

Extreme political regimes always end up being run by the police forces.

Now where are we, facsist or communist?
I was going to comment that maybe the Chief Superintendant had staged a quiet coup that we haven't been officially informed of yet...

[Indiana_Jones]

Taking a break from all the poltics for the moment.

The British connection.


<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=135737&stc=1&d=1248577992">

-Indy

[jono035]

Taking a break from all the poltics for the moment.

The British connection.

-Indy

That's a nice set you've got there. All the same guns you've got individual pics of in the firearms appreciation KB group, right?

[Indiana_Jones]

That's a nice set you've got there. All the same guns you've got individual pics of in the firearms appreciation KB group, right?

Yep should be.

But they are from top to bottom:

Martini-Enfield (built in 1881 as a Martini-Henry, converted in 1896 to .303)

Lee-Enfield (1901, VR stamped)

BSA International Mk. II (No date, but guessing mid/late 60s)

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Just back in from a plinking session.

Playing around with the .22 JW15.

Finding out where it shot at different diatances.

At 100 paces it is shooting about 2 inches high, spot on at 25 metres.

Blew the hell out of a Rexona can at 100 paces.

Had to aim at the bottom of the can to centre hit it. Grouiped shots in a 1" group. good enough for a $300 rifle package.

All in I wenbt through 300 rounds of .22.

I have a good feel for where this rifle is shooting with the ammunition on hand.

Just bought some dies for the 45-70, $120 for a 3 die Lyman set. Getting ready to burn powder in September.

Started making the wedge, on which I am going to make the rear sight mount to the upper tang of the Remington. Bought a solid piece of brass from the scrappies. Hacksaw and file job bringing it to the required angel to get the rear sight post verticle.

Cleaned and oiled all the rifles and pistols yesterday. The 58 remmies were crying out to be fired but I resisted the temptation.

The next month is set aside for reloading. I hope to have a 1000 M1 loaded, 400 .223, 800 .44 spl, 300 .44 mag, 100 45-70, another 100 shotgun. Cast all the heads for the 30 M1 and the .44, have bought heads for the .223, I need to get some more shot for the shotgun.

I also need to buy a couple of kilos of BP next payday. I may get a different powder for the .223, used to use Hodgon 332 for the 7mm TCU. Fast burning powder in a blown out .223 case. I'll check the books for a powder that gives good accuracy with a 52 gn bullet.

The scrappies have put aside 100 kg of lead sheet for me. Easy to cut for the melting pot.

Chris

[wbks]

Just back in from a plinking session.

Playing around with the .22 JW15.

Finding out where it shot at different diatances.

At 100 paces it is shooting about 2 inches high, spot on at 25 metres.

Blew the hell out of a Rexona can at 100 paces.

Had to aim at the bottom of the can to centre hit it. Grouiped shots in a 1" group. good enough for a $300 rifle package.

All in I wenbt through 300 rounds of .22.


ChrisHow much did the 300 rounds cost you? I was looking at getting one of those norinco's, which is the JW15, right? I've been told very bad things about their accuracy... Good buy?

[sAsLEX]

How much did the 300 rounds cost you? I was looking at getting one of those norinco's, which is the JW15, right? I've been told very bad things about their accuracy... Good buy?

Bricks of 500 .22 are from 70 bucks.

[doc]

Bricks of 500 .22 are from 70 bucks.

Something wrong here I get loose packed boxes of federal (550) .22 for 9 bucks ex LA

[Mr Merde]

How much did the 300 rounds cost you? I was looking at getting one of those norinco's, which is the JW15, right? I've been told very bad things about their accuracy... Good buy?

They arent too bad. You wont get really accurate groups unless you do a little work. The bedding is atrocious. Trigger pull is heavy. Sight they come with is weak. I;ll put the 3-9x40 on it when I get a new one for the .223 Weatherby. Based on a Brno .22. I have two BRNO mags that work perfectly with it

Ammo was a gift. But it would have costr about $30 if I bought it.

I've taken lots of bunnies and turkeys with this rifle. I does the job it is supposed to do. Woodwork is shit. Droped this rifle and the stock split. Had to find a spare. Not easy.

As a starter I'd reccomend this as a good learner rifle.

At 25 metres I can group shots all touching.


Chris

[The Pastor]

How much did the 300 rounds cost you? I was looking at getting one of those norinco's, which is the JW15, right? I've been told very bad things about their accuracy... Good buy?

I got given one, its pretty spot on under 50m which is where most of the targets are. Havnt shot it at 100m tho - but have missed some long range shots on rabbits possums and ducks.

I need to take it down to the local range and get it re sighted in for 25 - my shitty scope I bought for an air rifle in high school doesn't keep its zero very well.

one day I'll get my 308 back :(

[doc]

Havnt shot it at 100m tho - but have missed some long range shots on ducks.

one day I'll get my 308 back :(

Stiil aint allowed to use .308 on ducks. Not considered sporting if you read the terms of the license. :Police:

Duck shooting is like religion to some

[The Pastor]

Stiil aint allowed to use .308 on ducks. Not considered sporting if you read the terms of the license. :Police:

Duck shooting is like religion to some
next you'll be saying you cant shoot them when they are on the water either....

[doc]

exactly , I also never exceed the speed limit on the open road. Things come back to bite you on this web thingy. Don't mention it and they wont notice.

[jono035]

exactly , I also never exceed the speed limit on the open road. Things come back to bite you on this web thingy. Don't mention it and they wont notice.

I dunno, I was brought up to hunt humanely and was taught that shooting at birds with solid projectiles is inhumane. Guess it depends on how confident you are of an instant (or at least prompt) kill, although if you're missing altogether then I guess that thought is out the window...

[jono035]

Thanks for the +rep on that last comment. "sport doesnt necessarily mean humane. try pig huntin with dogs."

Lots of guys go hunting with dogs in the bush that my parent's place borders on, never gone after pigs myself though.

I've always figured it isn't a black and white issue though. If something is a pest (possums, pigs, goats and deer in some areas) then I would tend to lower the bar for what is considered 'humane' in those circumstances. Likewise if someone was hunting entirely for sport, then I would think that the bar should be pretty damn high.

Hunting pigs with dogs may not be a quiet, peaceful death but as long as you make sure that you kill the pig as quickly as is feasible and take measures to avoid letting a wounded animal escape then I'd say it's fair enough.

[jono035]

one day I'll get my 308 back :(

Sheeeesh, anyone hunting possums, rabbits or ducks with a .308 gets a gigantic WTF from me. Possums would be downright dangerous though given that you're generally shooting with no reasonable expectation that the bullet is going to stop in the possum/trees (I don't even assume that with a .22). You'd have to be pretty damn certain that there was nothing within about 5kms?

Ducks and rabbits aren't necessarily all that dangerous, they just make me curious as to your motives <_<

[Indiana_Jones]

Sheeeesh, anyone hunting possums, rabbits or ducks with a .308 gets a gigantic WTF from me.

.............How about an RPG?

-Indy

[jono035]

.............How about an RPG?

-Indy

Depends on whether I'd get a turn or not... :shifty:

[The Pastor]

Sheeeesh, anyone hunting possums, rabbits or ducks with a .308 gets a gigantic WTF from me. Possums would be downright dangerous though given that you're generally shooting with no reasonable expectation that the bullet is going to stop in the possum/trees (I don't even assume that with a .22). You'd have to be pretty damn certain that there was nothing within about 5kms?

Ducks and rabbits aren't necessarily all that dangerous, they just make me curious as to your motives <_<
you should see me hunt sheep with my bit of 4x2 then!

[Brett]

Talking about messy kills, I f%cked up today.....

Mate of mine has a permit to hunt in the Hunua ranges. We decided to head up for a spot of night shooting, mainly possums and try for goats.

He was carrying a .223 and me a .22 with silencer (hence sub-sonic rounds) to get the possums with. The .22 has one of those hunting lights on a pressure switch. I had deemed the .270 too large for the nights targets.

Night was going all fine, we each got a few possums (one of which had a young one in the pouch which we had to kill with a knife - first nastiness) then we decided to call it a night and make our way back to the truck.

So heading our way back, still stealthily and what should we come upon but a small herd of 3 goats about 50m away, a nanny and 2 juveniles. Well, since I was set up with the light, I shined it their way so that my mate could get them in the scope of the .223. He was taking his time and meanwhile I had one of them in my scope nicely and they got spooked and were just about to break so I (stupidly) thought that I better take one...so I, knowing the rounds would have limited killing power being sub sonic, tripple tapped. A split second later my mate fired the .223. He knocked the nanny goat down and I made the big mistake of assuming it was dead because it dropped hard. I then heard the bleating of the little male I had hit and suddenly realising that it was only half maimed, realised that I had to finish it off.

So I fell my way down the bank to where the little goat was stuck in a tree, it gave a plaintive little bleat and then coffed up a bit of blood...I felt gutted. I put one last shot into its head at about 3m and that ended it.

But I am fucking pissed off at myself. I enjoy hunting but absolutely HATE maiming animals. I was really stupid to try take it with a suppressed .22 and to be honest, had I realised how young it was I would probably have not shot at all.

To make matters worse, the goat my mate hit didn't die on the spot, when we went back to where it was hit, there was no body to be found. Spent 2 hours trying to track it to no avail. So will go back out there tomorrow to try find it that being my pennance for being a dick head.

I broke some of the rules I feel strongest about tonight. I shot before the guy who was officially meant to shoot, by shooting and then removing his light source I enabled an injured animal to escape and die a painful death and I shot an animal I wouldn't normally go for.

I feel like a right cock. Especially since I am normally so anal about safety and correct hunting ethics.

[jono035]

I feel like a right cock. Especially since I am normally so anal about safety and correct hunting ethics.

That's pretty rough but the fact that you sound pretty pissed off about it means I doubt anyone would hold it against you.

I've had to finish a couple of possums off with a knife (down banks where I couldn't drag the .22 or on stones) and it's a nasty business to be sure, tough little bastards. Prefer to either nail them at close range with the .22 providing they're on mud/clay or a solid boot to the head crushes their skull, which according to my vet sister who comes out shooting sometimes is an instant death with any twitching being random nerves firing.

[Swoop]

Has anyone else received one of these?

Subject: Illegal NZ
From: Joe.Green@police.govt.nz
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:30:13 +1200

Your e mail to the minister of Police has been referred to me for a direct
response.

The following is a standard response that I have been sending to the
numerous licence holders that have contacted me.

I am getting bulk feedback from licence holders, but others I've spoken to
generally recognise the programme for what it is: a beat up.

Some of the points about the first programme:

*Firstly, this is a media programme prepared with an objective in
mind - it was not an open investigation. The reporter set out to prove
something and generally did so. It was sensationalised considerably. So I
view what happened with a 'jaundiced eye' (and having been 'set up by the
media' am very wary of leaping into anything!). In other words my advice to
people is - don't believe all you saw.
*A person was pictured firing a .22 into the open air from his
backyard. He commented that there was a big paddock out the back. As far as I am aware no complaints were received. The offence is one of 'discharging a firearm in or near a dwelling house or public place so as to endanger property or to endanger, annoy, or frighten any person'. It certainly was not good practice however I also noted it was a .22 and that the empty field was a vacant playground, and the shot was fired into the air. I don't know who the person was and it would probably require a court warrant to get that information - if it exists. For all we know he might have been able to see that the field was vacant. In the absence of a complaint I would be wary of charging him with anything.
*The same person commented that he had a near miss. But it was a near
miss.
*A firearm was shown as being sold without the seller viewing the
licence. The offence is that of 'selling or supplying a firearm to any
person who is not the holder of a firearms licence' - the standard for
determining that is not in the Act (as it is in the Sale of Liquor Act). The
seller asked the person with the purchaser if he had a licence, but did not
ask to see it, however the person with the purchaser responded 'yeah, yeah'.
It appears that the seller made an overall judgement call - one that was
actually correct. I agree, on the face of it an offence was committed
against section 43 of the Arms Act, however a statutory defence is provided.
If I were him and charged I would subpoena that companion to prove he had a licence. The statutory defence might or might not be satisfied. Good (and
legally safe) practice is that sighting the licence is good evidence of
having supplied the firearm to a licence holder.
*It has been suggested that the seller should have shown the
purchaser his licence - No, no offence here..
*The reporter used video footage filmed without the approval of the
person or activity being filmed.The reporter was asked if he had camera in
his bag - he said he did not, and it would seem he did not. The camera was
on his person. Had the question about recording been more general I
understand that the footage could not lawfully have been used - but have not sought further legal advice on this.
*People have commented that Greg O'Connor showed a general lack of
knowledge of the law, and promoted registration 'of all the guns entering NZ
from here on', not 'catching up on those already here'. I appreciate that he
has a politicised role. However let's examine what he is actually shown as
suggesting: there about 1.2 million firearms in NZ. He suggested not
worrying about back capturing these in a registration process, but capture
those coming in. In 2000-2007 124 000 firearms came into NZ, averaging about 12 000 a year. So he suggests registering this number, but not worrying
about the 1.2 million - really!? I suspect only part of the picture was
shown.
*In terms of internet sales: the producer suggested that firearms
were easily purchased unlawfully over the internet. Well, what actually
happened was that the reporter obtained the identity of the seller from the
internet, however the sale was by personal contact. Sales through two large
internet sites that I know of require the seller and purchaser at the time
of registration to provide a firearms licence number, and that is verified
as current. That's why the reporter possibly couldn't complete the sale over
the internet (but of course that level of control doesn't make for a good
story).
*The reporter commented, and had a firearms licence on the computer
screen, that a licence could easily be photoshopped and used. Well - he then
actually didn't use it, but used the actual licence of his companion. I
wouldn't mind seeing the 'easily photoshopped licence', and I wouldn't mind
seeing the outcome (not on the screen - in the hard). $20 is pinned to my
whiteboard for the reporter if it even comes close to replicating a real
licence (because we've had a few try (fraud and under age drinking) and the
licence is obviously fake - there are some security features in the
licence). I don't think his 'photoshopped licence' would have been good for
anything (it wasn't good enough for him to use by fax).
*The programme suggested 40 000 illegally held firearms. Thorp's 1997
estimate had a top end of 25 000, and he did substantial analysis. He also
commented that it was not possible to determine the exact number, but it
might be more than the 25 000 indicated. In other words - the programme
stated as definitive fact what is really a guestimate.
*What the programme didn't tell viewers, and what I think the public
actually take notice of is that homicide, suicide and non intentional death
by firearm has been tracking steadily downward over several decades, and,
violent crime with firearms as a % of all violent crime is between 1.2 and
1.3 %.
*In terms of the second programme:
*Again, do not believe all you see.
*The footage of the pile of firearms was taken at the police Armoury
and was file footage.
*The inspector seen on the programme was filmed 4 years ago - again,
file footage.
*Firearms could not sustain burying in the ground and remain in sound
condition.
*Interestingly the 'informant' connected the reported with a person
(Maybe) who has been named and address given in the open media - a beat up.

All in all at this point police do not intend prosecution action due to the
unreliability of the reporting.

Joe Green
Inspector
Manager Licensing and Vetting Service Centre

[Mr Merde]

Amazing how bad things can be made to look or how a point of view can be exagerated, by some judicious editing and ommisions.

One sided reporting. Sensationalism. Bias. Questionable activities. Plagerism (didnt source his stock file clips but passed them off as his own investigation).

We have a 3rd rate, Mike Moore wannabe here in NZ.

I recieved a letter from TVNZ last week informing me they will be looking into my complaint. Tui moment I think.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

....

I feel like a right cock. Especially since I am normally so anal about safety and correct hunting ethics.


We all have made mistakes. Wouldnt be human if we didnt.

Did you learn from them?

Can you stop yourself from making the same or similar mistake?

Did you hurt anyone?

Dont beat yourself up too much. I know its not nice to cause suffering but there are situations and events that make it unavoidable at the time. You will have learnt a lesson and will not make the same mistake again. Thats a bonus.

[Wolf]

Talking about messy kills, I f%cked up today.....
Reminds me of a less-than-sterling job I made of euthanasing a beloved pet dog - ended up having to finish the job with the shovel as I had no quick means of a follow-up shot. Felt really awful because I caused undue suffering in what was supposed to be a quick, humane kill.

Henceforth, when called on to administer the final mercy, I have more than one bullet in the mag.

[Drunken Monkey]

The suffering happens from time to time, by chance or even conditions outside of our control. It's how you feel when it happens that's important.

[wbks]

:shit:I can't really see why people are so touchy about cutting throats out hunting or something, but that's pretty nasty

[Indiana_Jones]

So what do people think about Ruger (http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7116&return=Y) bolt action rifles?

Seen one that has taken my fancy

That or a Stevens-Savage .243

-Indy

[Brett]

We all have made mistakes. Wouldnt be human if we didnt.

Did you learn from them?

Can you stop yourself from making the same or similar mistake?

Did you hurt anyone?

Dont beat yourself up too much. I know its not nice to cause suffering but there are situations and events that make it unavoidable at the time. You will have learnt a lesson and will not make the same mistake again. Thats a bonus.


Yep, I learnt a few things from this. However I am always always always safe with guns...will make sure that I never unintentionally hurt anyone. The only thing I was unhappy with this time was a kill that was unnecessarily nasty.


So what do people think about Ruger (http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=7116&return=Y) bolt action rifles?

Seen one that has taken my fancy

That or a Stevens-Savage .243

-Indy

They are really good IMO. Not quite a Remington 700, but really good rifles. Have used a Ruger Mod 77 .243 on a few occasions and I really liked it.

Personally I am hoping to make my .243 a Tikka T3 Tactical. But then, they are bloody expensive.

[Indiana_Jones]

They are really good IMO. Not quite a Remington 700, but really good rifles. Have used a Ruger Mod 77 .243 on a few occasions and I really liked it.

Personally I am hoping to make my .243 a Tikka T3 Tactical. But then, they are bloody expensive.

Remington 700 is on my list.

I'm also mulling over a T3 Lite.

Not sure what round I want lol, 25-06 & .243 are looking good at the moment, want something that can do some target and deer shooting at mid range.

Also saw a Savage 10FP (Dragunov Stock) in .308 with a suppressor :sunny:

-Indy

[The Pastor]

so what do people think about ruger (http://www.ruger.com/firearms/faprodview?model=7116&return=y) bolt action rifles?

Seen one that has taken my fancy

that or a stevens-savage .243

-indy
mate, far too modern and accurate ;)

[Indiana_Jones]

mate, far too modern and accurate ;)

lol you're right, what was I thinking!

-Indy

[Wolf]

Any ideas on the reliability/quality/accuracy of the Baikal and Rossi single-shot, break-action rifles (.308)? They are relatively inexpensive and, AFAIK, break down for easy transportation like the break-action shotguns.

[jono035]

New update on http://frommycolddeadhand.blogspot.com/

Sounds pretty good, it was a court hearing to obtain an interim order to prevent the reclassification of MSSA (an objective that is still in limbo) but the comments made still sound promising:

"Justice Mackenzie said that in his view the Police reinterpretation of the Arms Act is irrelevant and meaningless, that the Police had no statutory power to make a binding interpretation and that any such interpretation was inconsequential."

[Indiana_Jones]

Well there's a small glimmer of hope there.

But let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet....

-Indy

[jono035]

Well there's a small glimmer of hope there.

But let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet....

-Indy

Careful, comments like that can result in death-by-banjo, apparently :p

[Indiana_Jones]

Careful, comments like that can result in death-by-banjo, apparently :p

That was my purpose for owning a firearm when the cops asked lol

-Indy

[jono035]

That was my purpose for owning a firearm when the cops asked lol

-Indy

Very nice! If only I wasn't paranoid about a stupid reason on my E-cat application preventing me from ever getting one :D

[doc]

Reminds me of a less-than-sterling job I made of euthanasing a beloved pet dog - ended up having to finish the job with the shovel

Ive got more respect for "beloved pet dogs" I pay the vet to do it as a home visit. Cost but leaves a better memory. :love:

[Wolf]

Ive got more respect for "beloved pet dogs" I pay the vet to do it as a home visit. Cost but leaves a better memory. :love:
Got the vet to euthanase a different beloved pet dog and the dog twigged something was wrong, stressed out and tried struggling and fighting, I had to hold her quite firmly while the vet put the needle in and the look she gave me as she was dying still haunts me. I think a well-placed bullet that they don't expect is far quicker and less stressful all 'round.

YMMV.

"Well-placed" being the operative words...

Only fucked up the one euthanasing shot, the other ones have been clean and humane.

[jono035]

Got the vet to euthanase a different beloved pet dog and the dog twigged something was wrong, stressed out and tried struggling and fighting, I had to hold her quite firmly while the vet put the needle in and the look she gave me as she was dying still haunts me. I think a well-placed bullet that they don't expect is far quicker and less stressful all 'round.

YMMV.

"Well-placed" being the operative words...

Only fucked up the one euthanasing shot, the other ones have been clean and humane.

Yeah, it's all fine and good unless you have to drag the pet in by its collar to the vet anyway and it sits there whimpering the entire time. Not so bad when it is getting a checkup or a vaccination, bit more heartless when it's getting put down...

[The Pastor]

sounds like some of you need to take a few of these

http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/viagra.jpg

and harden up!

[Wolf]

sounds like some of you need to take a few of these

http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/viagra.jpg

and harden up!
My girlfriends reckon I don't need them.

[NOWOOL]

This whole MSSA thing is a farce...I went through it in the States under the Clinton administration until the law expired after 10 years. By the end of it's life even the democrats conceded that it had virtually no effect on firearms crimes. The concern should be more on the criminal with a single shot weapon than the law abiding with automatic weapons, but that would fly in the face of PC....afterall, its not the criminal's fault; society is to blame! ROFL

[Mr Merde]

My girlfriends reckon I don't need them.

Is that because the labels arent written in "sheep"?

[Wolf]

Is that because the labels arent written in "sheep"?

Not baaaaaa-ad

[Mr Merde]

Off work today,

Not been too well.

Also not used to doing nothing so I have been dividing my time between resting, fixing the bike and setting up for reloading the 45-70,

Picked up the dies on Wednesday night.

Ordered a set of shell holders , duh I forgot them, so I ordered all 11 sizes

Found a source for Swiss 1 1/2 FFg Black powder. The real good stuff. $120 a kg.

Chinese BP costs about $70 a kg

Until I can make up a tray to sift the Chinese stuff I will shoot the Swiss in the rifle only.

Sat down and opened up the flash hole in all my 45-70 cases. Taken them out to .9 mm. This allows the spark from the primer to ignite more powder, faster.

Ive been collecting wasp nests for a while now. Makes very good packing between the powder and the bullet.

So I have cases, dies, powder, packing, 150 cast heads (530gn each), primers. Just waiting on the shellholders and I will be good to go.

Lots of reading for loads.

Just need to get the rear sight mounted on the rifle tang and my project rifle will be, after 3 years, reagy to burn powder.

Looks like August is a go.

Chrisb

[jono035]

[QUOTE=Mr Merde;1129333238Until I can make up a tray to sift the Chinese stuff I will shoot the Swiss in the rifle only.[/QUOTE]

Sounds good, must be nice to be on the final stretch.

With the Chinese powder are you sifting specifically to get rid of particles that are too small, too large or both?

[Mr Merde]

Sounds good, must be nice to be on the final stretch.

With the Chinese powder are you sifting specifically to get rid of particles that are too small, too large or both?

Sifting for all those reasons.

Black powder comes in grades from Fg to FFFFg

As each F is added then so the powder gets finer. The finer the grading the faster it burns.

I use FFg in my rigles and shotgun and FFFg in my pistol rounds.

In a tin of powder it is fairly well gradxed but by sifting you can refine that grading down and make the powder burn as consistant as possible.

You dont need to do this with modern powder as it is actually made to a size and shape already.

The whole thing about BP long range shooting is consistancy. Then the only reason to miss is if thre shooter doesnt do his\her bit.


Chris

[jono035]

Sifting for all those reasons.

Black powder comes in grades from Fg to FFFFg

As each F is added then so the powder gets finer. The finer the grading the faster it burns.

I use FFg in my rigles and shotgun and FFFg in my pistol rounds.

In a tin of powder it is fairly well gradxed but by sifting you can refine that grading down and make the powder burn as consistant as possible.

You dont need to do this with modern powder as it is actually made to a size and shape already.

The whole thing about BP long range shooting is consistancy. Then the only reason to miss is if thre shooter doesnt do his\her bit.


Chris

Yeah, I get ya.

It seems especially important for BP as it is a detonation rather than a deflagration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration) (fast burn) that smokeless powder undergoes apparently.

Edit: I've got a spare ticket for the Cirque du Soleil tonight going free as detailed in a thread I just put up in the rant forum, 8pm show if anyone is keen.

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, I get ya.

It seems especially important for BP as it is a detonation rather than a deflagration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflagration) (fast burn) that smokeless powder undergoes apparently.

Edit: I've got a spare ticket for the Cirque du Soleil tonight going free as detailed in a thread I just put up in the rant forum, 8pm show if anyone is keen.


Black powder is an explosive whereas modern powder (nitro celleouse ) is a propellant.

This is why whenb loading bp into a cartridge case you do not leave any space between the powder and the bullet. If you have to you fill it with something like grits or semolina powder.

Leavingf a space allows the whole made case become a bomb just waiting to explode.

A consistant burn is what you want. With as much powder consumed before the bullet leaves the barrel, as possible. Up to 50% of the powder can be propelled out of the barrel, unburnt, hence the white cloud of smoke. One good test is to fire a bp gun over fresh snow. You will see a black mark appear on the snow. Thats unburnt powder falling to the ground. You could duplicate this with a white sheet staked to the ground and fire over it, (one of the cheap wharehouse sheets). You would be supprised how much powder falls to the ground.

This is one of the reasons the Kentucky rifles had such long barrels (up to 40"). To make as much use of the powder as possible. There is a point where you cant burn it all.

We still havent relearnt all that our ancestors knew about bp shooing. They knew what wood made the best charchol, how to make the best mix of the 3 key ingrediants for BP.

In the middle ages, saltpeter was so valuable that every village in England and France had tokeep all there sewerage in a particular place and produce so much for the armouries. It was the French who devised the method of manufacture that that meant you didnt have to cultivate your crap. It was this manufacturing process that led to France's rise in power during the Napoleonic period. Britian was still reliant on village production of saltpeter.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

Not shooting related but you lot are the only ones on this board I really talk to.

I've had a bad headache since last Thursday, so much so that I took Friday off work.

Yesterday I go to work in the morning with the headache and feeling naucious. Tried drinking a cup of coffee and almost threw up. Off to the doc's as this isnt me.

Talking to doc and he starts running the normal checks, temp etc. All normal. Then comes blood pressure. He does the manual test and states that it is very high (175/110). I am not sure what these numbers really mean.

He then starts taking more in depth checks. Electronic blood pressure meter is next, do c goes into high gear as this time it is reading 203/130.
Again I'm not sure what this means but I am guessing its not good as the number of tests go into high gear.

Question time re my lifestyle, work, stress, etc.

I'm now on tablets for pain, blood pressure and to assist me to sleep at night.

Booked into a test lab for a whole host of tests including the postate.

I was sent home and told to rest. Had no transport so I went to my mothers for the day as Sharron was at work. Spent the whole day sleeping. Woke up at 5pm when Sharron arrived to take me home. slept in the car and most of last evening.

Off for a couple of days. Back to work on Thursday.

All I thought I had was a headache. Shocked me all the worry the doc, Sharron and my mother were displaying.

Chris

[ManDownUnder]

Not shooting related but

Shit mate - if you need anything over the next little while - yell!

[Mr Merde]

Shit mate - if you need anything over the next little while - yell!

Just rest at the moment and a regime of stress relief.

53 years old in November. Gotta expect the old body to start wearing out sometime, I havent exactly wrapped myself in cotton wool in the past.

Whole experience reminded me of your post about getting the postate checked.

[Indiana_Jones]

Hope you get well Chris.

:grouphug:

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Sorry to hear that chirs, just gotta take it easy

[Wolf]

Not shooting related but you lot are the only ones on this board I really talk to.

I've had a bad headache since last Thursday, so much so that I took Friday off work.

Yesterday I go to work in the morning with the headache and feeling naucious. Tried drinking a cup of coffee and almost threw up. Off to the doc's as this isnt me.

Talking to doc and he starts running the normal checks, temp etc. All normal. Then comes blood pressure. He does the manual test and states that it is very high (175/110). I am not sure what these numbers really mean.

He then starts taking more in depth checks. Electronic blood pressure meter is next, do c goes into high gear as this time it is reading 203/130.
Again I'm not sure what this means but I am guessing its not good as the number of tests go into high gear.

Question time re my lifestyle, work, stress, etc.

I'm now on tablets for pain, blood pressure and to assist me to sleep at night.

Booked into a test lab for a whole host of tests including the postate.

I was sent home and told to rest. Had no transport so I went to my mothers for the day as Sharron was at work. Spent the whole day sleeping. Woke up at 5pm when Sharron arrived to take me home. slept in the car and most of last evening.

Off for a couple of days. Back to work on Thursday.

All I thought I had was a headache. Shocked me all the worry the doc, Sharron and my mother were displaying.

Chris

yikes, dude.

Hope nothing really serious shows up in the tests and that the stress-free regime helps.

Take it easy, we can't afford to lose you.

[The Pastor]

Well it looks like my dies are turning up in about 2 weeks,

and i cant have my rifle back because they are unsure if they have fixed the problem (misfiring) and if the rifle is safe to shoot.

Buy marlin, they are brilliant rifles, quick service and the shops know loads about them ;)

[Mr Merde]

Well it looks like my dies are turning up in about 2 weeks,

and i cant have my rifle back because they are unsure if they have fixed the problem (misfiring) and if the rifle is safe to shoot.

Buy marlin, they are brilliant rifles, quick service and the shops know loads about them ;)

Reloading dies?

Where are you getting them from?

My 45-70 dies took 2 days to arrive.

.308 are a lot more common than 45-70.

Marlin are great rifles looks like you got the lemon in the bunch. Happens sometimes. You should e-mail Marlin themselves and complain. Yank companies are good at responding.

[Mr Merde]

Slept the last two days away.

Been awake about 2 1/2 hours and feeling real sleepy now.

Knew there was a reason I didnt like pills.

Going for a nanna nap.


Chris


PS MDU. Have you seen the 22-250 cases and FL dies for sale on Trade Me?

[Indiana_Jones]

mmmmm sleep for 2 days.

Sounds relaxing!

Missing you buddy

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Serrious shooters, they are speical .308 dies for a special round... 308 leverevolution.

[jono035]

That sounds pretty horrific Chris. Hope you're feeling better and can get off the pills asap!

Let us know if there is anything that can be done to help or if there are any updates.

[jono035]

Serrious shooters, they are speical .308 dies for a special round... 308 leverevolution.

Interesting cartridge those, I think I remember reading about them a few weeks back, probably after you mentioned them somewhere.

.308 Marlin Express (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.308_Marlin_Express)

[Mr Merde]

So not .308 Win

Didnt look at the round too closely when you had it here.

Must pay more attention.

b

[The Pastor]

you feeling better chirs?

Might be time to stop the fags n booze....

[Wolf]

you feeling better chirs?

Might be time to stop the fags n booze....
I thought he was supposed to be decreasing stress...

[Mr Merde]

you feeling better chirs?

Might be time to stop the fags n booze....

Never been partial to a fag, doc has already spoken to me about smoking. Going to try Zyban end of next week once BP is sorted. not a heavy drinker any more. Dont have the satamina for a quick recovery as i did when a youngster.

$60 a week on smokes coulds go a long way in shooting.

[Indiana_Jones]

Never been partial to a fag, doc has already spoken to me about smoking. Going to try Zyban end of next week once BP is sorted. not a heavy drinker any more. Dont have the satamina for a quick recovery as i did when a youngster.

$60 a week on smokes coulds go a long way in shooting.

Yea, quitting the smokes will save you a tonne of cash!

And the best way to quit is sheer will power, keep the money you're saving from the fags and stick it into an account towards that Sako we were looking that.

That'll motivate you! :sunny:

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Nah you have to be locked in a room for a month with nothing but oatmeal and a bucket.

Or at least thats what my dad did when i was caught smoking!

[Mr Merde]

Yea, quitting the smokes will save you a tonne of cash!

And the best way to quit is sheer will power, keep the money you're saving from the fags and stick it into an account towards that Sako we were looking that.

That'll motivate you! :sunny:

-Indy

Another gun, motivation.

Always wanted a heavy calibre.

Ive been watching the Marlin lever rifles on TM. Chambered for 45-70.

Also interested in a 10/22. Nice semi auto plinker

So many guns so little time.

How about buildind a custom. That could be fun. Modern this time.

I've started dreaming again. Bugger.

25-06, 7mm-08, .375, 416 Rigby, double barre;led express. 30-06. ??

There are so many calibres I want to try.

[The Pastor]

Ive always wanted a take down semi 22 for the bike.

[Drunken Monkey]

Ive always wanted a take down semi 22 for the bike.

A tank mounted pistol holster and the M1873 Cavalry pistol (ya need cavalry spec so you can still use it with yer riding gloves on) is the way to go, Ren.

[SpankMe]

FYI. Firearm discussion is not restricted to just one thread like the Scottish thread. It just that this is the only one where anti gun nuts are banned. You can create new ones or use existing ones (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=104&highlight=great+white+hunter). ;)

[The Pastor]

fyi. Firearm discussion is not restricted to just one thread like the scottish thread. It just that this is the only one where anti gun nuts are banned. You can create new ones or use existing ones (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=104&highlight=great+white+hunter). ;)
where did you shoot that goat?

I really want to shoot a goat

[Mr Merde]

FYI. Firearm discussion is not restricted to just one thread like the Scottish thread. It just that this is the only one where anti gun nuts are banned. You can create new ones or use existing ones (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=104&highlight=great+white+hunter). ;)


Thanks for the heads up.

Been on this thread for so long now I hardly look at the others.

Didnt realise that antis were banned from this thread.

Seen a few of them pop in now and again. Never seem to last though.

Cheers

Chris

[SpankMe]

where did you shoot that goat?

I really want to shoot a goat

My old man used to live in the country and we would go goat/bunny/possum etc hunting together. But now he's too old and has been dragged into the suburbs by his missus. He's not happy about it. :(

[Mr Merde]

See the attached PDF from TVNZ.

Complaint not upheld

[jono035]

See the attached PDF from TVNZ.

Complaint not upheld

Bah, bit of a cop out really.

[ManDownUnder]

See the attached PDF from TVNZ.

Complaint not upheld

While I'd need to go back and see the exact wording... I think Standard 2 or Standard 5 (accuracy) were breached at the point where the reporter stood at his desk, a Ruger 10/22 in hand claiming he'd just received it. At that point either:
1) He was lying and the firearm had actually been shipped to his licensed mate (breach of standard 5) or
2) He was telling the truth, in which case he was an accomplice in the unlawful act of having a firearm shipped to an unlicensed person, and then taking possesion of a firearm without the necessary license (a breach of standard 2)


1/2 way through chapter 2 of the video (http://tvnz.co.nz/illegal-nz/s1-e1-video-2835335) he quotes the seller as saying "I don't give a shit" but amits the "but that's the law" which the seller stated. Misleading - and a deliberate breach of Standard 5.

About 2 minutes after that he plainly states "there you go - I'm now armed and ready to go". Again - either misleading (if he had a firearms licence holder with him) or illegal - again - either Standard 2 or Standard 5. And the fact it's not clear... means it breaches Standard 5.

That's immediately followed by "Now that I've got my gun illegally through the mail..." - he broke the law and is admitting to it??? Or is he being misleading... again?

TVNZ's call on that one.

I'm looking forward to getting my reply - then escalating this to the BSA directly. It's going to get a more impartial response at the very least

[Monsterbishi]

$60 a week on smokes could go a long way in shooting.

About 750 rounds of .22lr
Could buy enough powder to make 330+ .223 centerfire rounds
Or 1000 small rifle primers

[jono035]

About 750 rounds of .22lr
Could buy enough powder to make 330+ .223 centerfire rounds
Or 1000 small rifle primers

Better yet, 150 rounds of 9mm or 100 rounds of .45ACP

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Just bought a 1901 Lee Enfield :done: Question is, can I use military ammo in it?
Actually to clarify that what I meant was 'modern' 303 ammo ?

[scumdog]

Just bought a 1901 Lee Enfield :done: Question is, can I use military ammo in it?
Actually to clarify that what I meant was 'modern' 303 ammo ?


Get it checked to see if it has the correct bolt (for head-space)

Then good condition military ammo is no worry - and 'modern' stuff is down-loaded compared with what it COULD be so it doesn't blow-up old rifles.

Enjoy the old girl.:2thumbsup

[scumdog]

Ive always wanted a take down semi 22 for the bike.

Got a Gevarm that taken down that is oh, about 12" long for the longest bit (the butt) and assembled is only 764mm without the silencer on.!:shutup:

[Indiana_Jones]

Just bought a 1901 Lee Enfield :done: Question is, can I use military ammo in it?
Actually to clarify that what I meant was 'modern' 303 ammo ?

Same year as my Enfield!

Have fun :)

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

Also interested in a 10/22. Nice semi auto plinker
.

Need to test out my new one so will pop round sunday if your feeling fine and the weather suits to let you have a play!

[jono035]

Also interested in a 10/22. Nice semi auto plinker.


Need to test out my new one so will pop round sunday if your feeling fine and the weather suits to let you have a play!

I'm looking for something to do this weekend, could come down to say hi, put faces to names and bring down my target 10/22 as well to compare if that sounds worthwhile?

[The Pastor]

i'm looking for something to do this weekend, could come down to say hi, put faces to names and bring down my target 10/22 as well to compare if that sounds worthwhile?
well if chris is up to it, myself and andrew are going over on sunday after lunch 1pm ish but yeah, from the sounds of it, chris needs a bit of rest - being on meds isnt fun.

[jono035]

well if chris is up to it, myself and andrew are going over on sunday after lunch 1pm ish but yeah, from the sounds of it, chris needs a bit of rest - being on meds isnt fun.

Yeah, for sure. Was just a thought and it's Chris' call anyway :)

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, for sure. Was just a thought and it's Chris' call anyway :)

Dont mind if you all pop round on Sunday. I will be a little laid back as I have just gotten out of 2 days in Middlemore.

Got ambulanced in yesterday morning with chest pains. All cleared but had to spend the night in there. Got home at 5pm tonight.

Under orders from the docs. Colestorol is way over what it should be and I have to take meds to get the BP down. I have to exercise 3 times a week and get my heartrate to 120 bpm for at least 20 min.

Also told to stop smoking etc. Apparently my heart has suffered damage over the past few years but not too bad and wont get worse if I look after myself.

So I will look for you all about 1pm Sunday afternoon.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

well if chris is up to it, myself and andrew are going over on sunday after lunch 1pm ish but yeah, from the sounds of it, chris needs a bit of rest - being on meds isnt fun.

I'm not dead yet.

See you Sunday.

Gotta teach you to reload.

[Wolf]

I'd Join y'all but the boys will be returned at some unspecified time on Sunday arvo and I have to be home for that. Need to get Juliet to drop them back a bit later one weekend so I can head out and meet the crowd.

[jono035]

I will be a little laid back as I have just gotten out of 2 days in Middlemore.

Yikes. Well if you need a break then I've got no worries with postponing, definitely. They've let you go home with some pretty clear orders though so that has to be a good sign.

[Mr Merde]

Yikes. Well if you need a break then I've got no worries with postponing, definitely. They've let you go home with some pretty clear orders though so that has to be a good sign.

No problems, I need to relax and shooting is my relaxation. Hence I need to shoot more.

Having troiuble with the smoking.

Talk to Indy, Sort out where to meet. First time getting here is a bugger as it is way out in the wops. Actually only 40 min from Papakura. 20 min from motorway.

I often carry a rifle, a shotgun and 2 pistols plus ammo and other gear on the bike. ZTakes planning.


b

[jono035]

Having troiuble with the smoking.

Do they count shooting BP as smoking? :)

If one of the guys wants to meet me somewhere beforehand or just PM me a link to your place on google maps then hopefully I won't wind up too far out in the middle of nowhere.

[The Pastor]

Do they count shooting BP as smoking? :)

If one of the guys wants to meet me somewhere beforehand or just PM me a link to your place on google maps then hopefully I won't wind up too far out in the middle of nowhere.
meet me at the papakura autobarn at 1pm not sure if indu is coming or not

[jono035]

meet me at the papakura autobarn at 1pm not sure if indu is coming or not

I've found it on google maps so I should be ok providing I can find the odd signpost or 2, thanks for the offer anyway though, much appreciated!

[Indiana_Jones]

Hey guys,

If you're keen to cage down Scott I'll chuck in for the gas as I wanna take one of the 91/30s down

-Indy

[jono035]

Hey guys,

If you're keen to cage down Scott I'll chuck in for the gas as I wanna take one of the 91/30s down

-Indy

I'll be caging down from Mt Eden, can pick anyone up who needs it.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'll be caging down from Mt Eden, can pick anyone up who needs it.

Got parking for the bike? I guess I'll manage to get a 91/30 down there on the Daytona.

I'll see what Scott thinks, makes sense to take one cage down.

Thanks Jono!

-Indy

[jono035]

Got parking for the bike? I guess I'll manage to get a 91/30 down there on the Daytona.

I'll see what Scott thinks, makes sense to take one cage down.

Thanks Jono!

-Indy

Yeah definitely, off street or it should fit nicely in the garage next to mine if you'd like. I'll probably take my car down anyway to start with, it hasn't had much use since I started commuting with the bike so it'd be good to give it a long hot run.

[The Pastor]

yeah of cource i'll give you a lift!

[Indiana_Jones]

Well hang on, if you're gonna cage, might as well cage to Jono's then go in his?

-Indy

[jono035]

Well hang on, if you're gonna cage, might as well cage to Jono's then go in his?

-Indy

Entirely up to you guys, as previously mentioned I'll take my cage anyway but I'm plenty happy to take a detour or 2 to collect people. The cage has been cooped up all month and needs to be taken for a walk or I'm sure bits will start falling off <_<

[Mr Merde]

So tomorrow,

Indy, RM, sasAlex and jono0535,

Should be a good afternoon.

I better get some components ready to show the first two how toi load.

It will be .223 but the principles are all the same

Then some plinking.

Sounds good.

Chris

[KREWZR]

Enrolment is now open to the National Shooters Association. Please use this temporary website to join the NSA.

Your heritage, your freedom - your job to save it for your kids and your grand-kids. (http://www.nsa-temp.blogspot.com)

[jono035]

Enrolment is now open to the National Shooters Association. Please use this temporary website to join the NSA.

Your heritage, your freedom - your job to save it for your kids and your grand-kids. (http://www.nsa-temp.blogspot.com)

yep, I'm already signed up but everyone else: Dive on in!

[Mr Merde]

yep, I'm already signed up but everyone else: Dive on in!


Snap,

NSA member #5

Get everyone you know to join.

The more members the more they will have to listen to us.


Chris

[jono035]

Snap,

NSA member #5

Get everyone you know to join.

The more members the more they will have to listen to us.


Chris

Oh what. That'll learn me for not responding as soon as I got the e-mail. I'm #31...

[Indiana_Jones]

Just got something that might make life a little less painful today lol

-Indy

[jono035]

Just got something that might make life a little less painful today lol

-Indy

...? :blink:

[sAsLEX]

...? :blink:

He is a bit of a girl and can't handle the recoil....

[Indiana_Jones]

He is a bit of a girl and can't handle the recoil....

lol says the man who's rifle has 2" of foam/rubber at the end of the stock!

-Indy

[jono035]

He is a bit of a girl and can't handle the recoil....

Bwahaha fair enough, I'll try remember to add some deep-heat and nurofen to my shooting pack then :D

[jono035]

lol says the man who's rifle has 2" of foam/rubber at the end of the stock!

-Indy

Indy: Any ballpark idea of when we're heading off?

Had a panic moment wondering if I still had any cci mini-mag left, 2 100round boxes so no worries there!

[Indiana_Jones]

Indy: Any ballpark idea of when we're heading off?

Had a panic moment wondering if I still had any cci mini-mag left, 2 100round boxes so no worries there!

Just texting Scott at the moment, don't worry dear, I'll let you know when I do :)

-Indy

[jono035]

Just texting Scott at the moment, don't worry dear, I'll let you know when I do :)

-Indy

Hahaha just wondering why I got up early then passed on hunter's sausages at the Horse and Trap :p Guess you guys do need your beauty sleep, though...

[Indiana_Jones]

Hahaha just wondering why I got up early then passed on hunter's sausages at the Horse and Trap :p Guess you guys do need your beauty sleep, though...

Well I was up at 9 in my defence lol, RM has been at church.

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

Righto, we're on the way now!

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

lol says the man who's rifle has 2" of foam/rubber at the end of the stock!

-Indy

Came like that standard.... not my fault.

Cheers for the use of the range Chris, good to through some lead down range!

[jono035]

Came like that standard.... not my fault.

Cheers for the use of the range Chris, good to through some lead down range!

Was a very enjoyable afternoon, had a great time and it was good to put faces to the names.

Thanks Chris, both for the use of your range and your toys. Will definitely be keen to help you burn through some more BP! Let me know what to procure and where from and I'll bring some supplies next time.

Also thanks for the use of the .308, Alex and the Moisin and BSA Indy, definitely 2 different ends of the spectrum there :D

[The Pastor]

Hi Scott

Welcome aboard. I have issued membership number #39 to you. More to follow soon.


so what excatly have i joined?

[sAsLEX]

Was a very enjoyable afternoon

<img src=http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/gamebirds/images/wild_turkey.jpg> ????

[jono035]

Hi Scott

Welcome aboard. I have issued membership number #39 to you. More to follow soon.


so what excatly have i joined?

Our quest for world domination!


????

Not so much. We figure your .308 scared them off!

[The Pastor]

<img src=http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/gamebirds/images/wild_turkey.jpg> ????
the only turkey that was there was andrew!

[Wolf]

Sounds like I missed out on a great day out.

The weather was actually rather nice, too.

[jono035]

Sounds like I missed out on a great day out.

The weather was actually rather nice, too.

Yeah, a little on the windy side but beautiful apart from that.

[Mr Merde]

Glad you all enjoyed yourselves.

Was good for me to get out and relax.

Sorry aboutr the brief reloading session.

Easier 1 to 1 but also easier when the sizing die doesent crush the case.

Been loading straight wall cases too long

I really enjoyed talking ballistics with you Jono. Most people find it a bit of a dry topic.

Dont forget nextr month when my mate is over from the UK.

The 19th century will rule the day

[jono035]

I really enjoyed talking ballistics with you Jono. Most people find it a bit of a dry topic.

Any time, Chris, I had a ball... I've only read a lot of the theory put forward by people, never actually put any of it to much use (no need given that I'm usually using 9mm factory ammo!) but it's an interesting topic nonetheless.

Ken Howell's forum posts on interior ballistics. (http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2167163/NEW_MEMBER_PRIMER_AND_OLD_MEMB#Post2167163) A lot of reading here, I pretty much just read Ken Howells posts, some very interesting stuff there.

Since I've gotten home I've been looking at shifting my next purchase away from a S&W 686 to a 6.5" S&W 629 (stainless version of the Dirty Harry gun, .44 mag). That combined with a stainless Rossi Puma would be a hell of a combo. How did you work up the BP loads for the lever? If those 2 guns could have BP loads worked up for them as well as smokeless then that would be absolute perfection, but I can't find any info about loading .44 magnum or other 'standard' guns for BP.

[Indiana_Jones]

Thanks again Chris.

Great to see Alex again and to meet Jono (thanks for the ride mate)

And a bugger about the turkeys!

-Indy

[1wheel riot]

iv been hunting since i was 8 i have a bolt action 22 pump mossy 12g bolt action mossy 270 and love to make those 3 4 500 yard shots

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Mate, I have trouble seeing 500 yards !:doh:

[Wolf]

Mate, I have trouble seeing 500 yards !:doh:
That's what scopes are for, ain't they?

Anyone know if you can get them ground to your prescription?

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Sorry, don't know.
BTW My 243's got a 3-9 vari on it and 5oo yards is STILL a bloody long way away.
(Of course you can focus the scope to suit your vision. )
As the len's on a good scope can have up to 20 or so coatings on it, I imagine the cost of a specifically ground lens would be prohibitive. Cheaper to get new eyes ! :stupid:

[Wolf]

Cheaper to get new eyes ! :stupid:
When the technology gets to that point, I'll be clamouring to be a test subject...

[Mr Merde]

.....How did you work up the BP loads for the lever? ......., but I can't find any info about loading .44 magnum or other 'standard' guns for BP.

Remember I told that BP was an explosive. You need to have the case filled to the base of the bullet. No air gaps allowed in a BP round.

So for the .44, I basically measured the depth the bullet would seat inside the case and filled the powder to there.

Worked out to about 30 grains by volume of FFG. about 35 grains by volume of FFFg.

When you seat the bullet you need to have it compress the powder about 1/16th to 1/8th of an inch.

This will give you a good load for .44

Now for the strange stuff.

If you remember I mentioned that when you fire a BP round that approx 1/2 of the powder is not burnt but expelled out the barrel in a white cloud.

I thought this a waste so what I have done is drop the amount of BP in my case to 25 gns by volume. I cant leaver an air space so I needed to fill the gap. I used semolina powder. So the powder goes in, on top of that a little semolina powder, then the bullet is seated in the case, compressing the semolina by the required depth whith in turn puts compression on the powder.

Instead of chucking 15gn of powder out the barrel I am now only wasting about 10-12 gns.

All with very little loss of bullet speed.

In my pistol rounds I have dropped the BP even further and only load 19gns by volume of BP, so I am putting 10+ gns of semolina powder on top of that.

When I fire these rounds you can catch the smell of burnt flour sometimes.

BP is very forgiving as long as you realise the nature of the beast. The important thing is that you have no air space and that small amount of compression when seating the bullet.

Hope I have explained things a little.

Chris

[jono035]

Hope I have explained things a little.

Sure have. The full case or partially full case with filler material question was pretty much exactly what I was curious about.

How do the loads compare with the standard smokeless loads? Most of the resources I have found mention that you get much less bullet velocity out of the BP loaded cases but that some of the energy can be regained by raising the bullet weight, but I'm not sure how far you could take that while staying within the maximum pressure specs.

[sAsLEX]

The famous SOG knives are one of the sponsors of the event and donate a stack of their throwing-knives for this stage. The blades are knocked into a block of wood with the blade-edge facing towards the shooter and a piece of white paper is stapled to a board behind the knife. At a distance of 80m and within 30 seconds, the shooter must fire one round at the blade-edge and strike it perfectly so as to split the bullet into two haves and show separate impacts on the paper behind.

Sweeeeeeeet! (said as Jeremy Clarkson! )

The rest below


2008 WORLD SNIPER CHAMPIONSHIPS - HUNGARY

Our sniper in residence Rob, has just returned from the World Sniper Championship in Hungary where he finished up on the podium. He wasn’t intending to do a write-up but I know a lot of you are interested in tactical rifles and enjoy reading Rob’s stuff on Precision Rifle so, I managed to persuade him. Read on…………..I'll get some photos up soon - Vince



7th WORLD SNIPER CHAMPIONSHIPS IN BUDAPEST – HUNGARY

'The Best Of The Best'



I wasn’t going to do a write up on this comp. as looking back through the articles I’ve written this year, it seemed very similar to most of the others but, after speaking to several friends I was convinced that, as it was the official ‘World Sniper Championship’, this was a fitting and worthy subject for the final foreign competition of the year and of course they were right. As usual, names and faces have to be protected so I won’t go into personal details of my fellow competitors but I will try and give you a honest account of the comp.



This past couple of years I’ve shot a fair bit in Europe with both the police and military but without doubt, this comp is the pinnacle of its type within the sniping community. I have known of its existence for some time and long wanted to attend but with over 20 countries invited, places are limited and are strictly by invite and of course only open to military and police/security services.



Fortunately, one week before the competition was due to start, I had a piece of good fortune - an Israeli sniper was short of a partner, my security services clearance had just come through and a friend who was already down to compete put my name forward as a possible stand in. The ‘powers that be’ said ‘yes’ and I was on my way. A short Easyjet flight to Vienna and then a two-hour drive gets you to Budapest, where everyone was billeted in the local police training academy, which was a 30 minute drive to the range.



The range itself is 450m long and 200m wide and is divided down the middle by a concrete wall and surrounded on three sides by 40ft earth berms. All this meant that we were protected from the worst of the wind but when gusts did make it down to us, they were very tricky to read.



The first day started with the usual opening ceremony, flag raising and photo sessions with police and military top brass, then the safety briefing, which with over 20 countries participating was a translator’s nightmare but with English being the designated language for the competition and a very good multi-lingual translator, all went quickly and smoothly.



Day 1: Engage brain & go to your guns!



The first course of fire (COF) was a cold clean-bore shot at two very small air rifle targets (approx 1 ½ inches across) at 100metres. Given that the temperature was 95 degrees Fahrenheit with a humidity close to 50%, I was interested to see what effect it would have on my Diggle range-card settings. Surprisingly, although there was over a 1000ft difference in elevation and a huge difference in temperature, old ‘mean & green’ held true to her original zero - although I did make a balls-up of the first two targets the following four small bullet-patches allowed unlimited sighters and confirmed the error was mine not the rifle’s. With my zero confirmed, the next COF moved us closer.

At 25metres we were presented with a cocktail stick with a flag on it. One round in three seconds with the instruction to break the flag pole! Any hit on the flag would mean minus points! A cock-up on this stage meant that you could be into minus points before you even got on the score board! This ‘minus score’ trend continued throughout the competition.



After a short lunch we moved down to 155 metres and the target was a 50 BMG cartridge-case. Again, one round in 20 seconds - again a very tough call with tons of mirage and 30 other guys to the left and right of you blazing away with everything from 223 up to 300 Win Mag. the necessity to be able to ‘get into your bubble’ was a must. Personally, I had a couple of very unfriendly muzzle-brakes close by but during the COF owing to the high level of concentration required, I was oblivious to them - thank God.



A good solid multi-positional shooting technique is of course a must. Two rounds kneeling and then dropping to prone for the final two shots all in 45 seconds was a good test of speed and pin-point accuracy and that was the name of the game here. Any dropped points and you plummeted faster than a tarts knickers on pay day. Another important aspect of this level of shooting is your own confidence and mental strength, so when you're confronted with four targets at 150 metres, the largest being 1 ½ inch across with a decreasing scoring zone and any bullet hole that is touching the line means you loose all your previous scores is a good test of your faith in your own ability. I screwed this one up too by the way!



A good evening meal on range followed the end of the first day’s shooting and then it was preparation for the night shoot. There were two COF’s at 155m and 203m under the illumination of a hand spotting-lamp and car headlamps. This is type of shooting really tests your scope and an illuminated reticle is a must. The 58mm object lens and 35mm body-tube on my US Optics scope grabs as much light as possible and transmits it to the shooter’s eye. I’ve got to say this scope has served me brilliantly throughout all the comps this year - by that I mean its reliable, the clicks are solid ¼ MOA, no more no less and the zero stays put regardless of abuse or travel. Build-quality is fantastic and the thick body-tube wall doubles-up as a carry-handle when in a rush. The crisp clean reticle is fine enough to pick out the finest detail on a target and includes a great Mil scale to range a target accurately. I use a simple rule when it comes to my scopes – if you can’t see it, you certainly can’t shoot it! When it comes to scopes, get the best you can afford. Never skimp on your glass.



Day 2: Must Try Harder



After the night shoot it was back to base to clean your rifle and sort out your kit for the following day. We had four hours sleep and then we were back out again. With sleep deprivation and jet-lag starting to bite, the day started with long cold-bore shots at 450m. Again, having trust in your equipment and charts meant the difference between hits and misses. The best COF of the day for me was the ‘Karma Sutra’ - well named if you look at the picture! You had to use your partners body to support your rifle for five shots at 180m at a very small inward-scoring target. Just like the Karma Sutra, there were lots of variants in the positions used to do this but I was really happy with ours - my partner had a broad back and by using two of my back-bags I had a kind of shooting bench. He was so still I think he went to sleep at one point - just don’t ask where his head was!



As the morning wore on, the temperature shot back up to 95 degrees but thankfully slightly less humidity, so when will were told that as part of a team-shoot, one guy would run and the other would shoot, my partner who was used to the Israeli desert heat took pity on me and offered to run whilst I did the shooting. I didn’t argue with him.



Both team members start prone and on the word ‘go’, the shooter engages a one-inch clay disc with as many rounds as necessary to break it. When the disc was hit a cover fell away to reveal 20 smiley faces. Meanwhile, the runner runs back 20m to get a picture of the target then runs back to the shooter and tries to describe the correct face! The shooter must then find and identify the face and engage with one round…tough? By the way all that had to be done in 60 seconds. I was very pleased with our efforts on this one - even with an accent and grammar differences, we did complete it successfully. Following this stage, we had an impromptu down-pour of hail, lightning and monsoon type rain which put a brief stop to shooting but not for long.



At the end of the second day, evening meal was again on the range as was weapons cleaning and kit drying then back to our accommodation. By this time, a wash and brush up and a few medicinal beers were in order before catching up on some much needed sleep. By the way, if a group of Russian shooters ever invite for a quick drink don’t go!