The firearm thread

[pritch]

PS - I lied about the number of shootings in the USA this year. I don't know the number and frankly if they can't be arsed trying to fix the problem then I don't care, they will just keep happening. Unlike in the UK or NZ. Or in Germany, Canada or Norway. For an English bloke you seem to be very apologetic for the seppos and their outdated laws.


I wondered about that. It was probably more like 34 mass shootings in May.

[pete376403]

Okay, ready for the point:


It's no different than every time I strap my kids into my Car. In fact, it's statistically significantly more likely they will die of a Car Crash than of a Mass Shooter, by several orders of magnitude.

"Strap your kids into the car" - you take the steps that you have control over to keep your kids safe(r). And you are agreeing that banning MSSA type firearms directly improves your kids chances of not being killed by a mass shooter. Glad we can agree on something.

[TheDemonLord]

"Strap your kids into the car" - you take the steps that you have control over to keep your kids safe(r).

Yes.


And you are agreeing that banning MSSA type firearms directly improves your kids chances of not being killed by a mass shooter. Glad we can agree on something.

No.

Ready for the difference?

External action vs Internal Action.

Let's rephrase your statement to really highlight the difference:


And you are agreeing that banning cars directly improves your kids chances of not being killed in a car accident. Glad we can agree on something.

That's the difference - I accept that allowing other people to have freedom will have a risk to Me and My Family, just as me maintaining my freedom is the potentially a risk to them and theirs.

That is what you are trying to argue - and whatever justification you use 'Cars are more useful than guns, guns only have one person' is just post-hoc justification.

Strip away all the layers and there is one truth:

Allowing other people freedom means that you are allowing a degree of risk.

[sugilite]

Ban those friggin doors :oi-grr:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4nn7j0eKbY

[pritch]

We can never know what the enactors had in mind when the 2nd Amendment was added to the constitution, but I'm reasonably sure they didn't mean the likes of these idiots when they wrote "well regulated militia".

Problem is that people make their own minds up however unlikely. I suspect that what they had in mind was something not unlike the National Guard. There is nothing about government over reach in the constitution either. That's some random lunacy from the conspiracy theorists, and God knows, there's no shortage of those.

[TheDemonLord]

We can never know what the enactors had in mind when the 2nd Amendment was added to the constitution, but I'm reasonably sure they didn't mean the likes of these idiots when they wrote "well regulated militia".

If only they wrote extensively about what they meant....

Like the Federalist Papers.

If only...



Problem is that people make their own minds up however unlikely. I suspect that what they had in mind was something not unlike the National Guard. There is nothing about government over reach in the constitution either. That's some random lunacy from the conspiracy theorists, and God knows, there's no shortage of those.

Except the National Guard was formed well before the Constitution. So no, if they meant something like the National Guard, they would have said so.

[pritch]

Except the National Guard was formed well before the Constitution. So no, if they meant something like the National Guard, they would have said so.

You will note that the National Guard refer to themselves as 'organised militia' which is almost synonymous with well regulated militia.


https://www.nationalguard.mil/About-the-Guard/How-We-Began/

[TheDemonLord]

You will note that the National Guard refer to themselves as 'organised militia' which is almost synonymous with well regulated militia.

Almost... but not exactly.

Hence why 2A doesn't say National Guard.

[husaberg]

https://www.snopes.com/tachyon/images/politics/graphics/pigeon.jpg

[sugilite]

Guess they did not have the political chops to get the pollies in drag to take up their case.
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/3513138-justices-wont-hear-appeal-from-couple-who-pointed-guns-at-black-lives-matter-protesters/

And here we have a snapshot of the current state of the republican party with a top republican moaning about how they cannot even lie to the fbi anymore without getting in trouble. Easy to see why they resist common sense gun control laws eh.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlvUiGqmRGo

[scumdog]

The president of the USA praises Adern on Gun laws. He is smart enough to ask a leader that has actually achieved something in this area. Smart. Meanwhile his ousted blow hard predecessor attends an NRA convention.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/06/01/biden-picks-arderns-brain-on-combatting-violence-extremism/


Was Biden also smart enough to know about all the drive-by shootings that happened in NZ while our PM was in his country ??

[scumdog]

Culturally, suggesting that an 18 year old Texan shouldn't be able to buy guns unhindered is pointless. They just claim: "People die every day everywhere". The historical influence from their Cowboys and Indians heritage ain't gonna change. However there are many states in the US of a less third-world culture and that should present a good starting point for a 'lead by example' initiative.

I'm in London ATM. There's very little gun crime however knife crime has escalated hugely.


Wasn't the answer to the London knife problem was to make it law that knives aren't allowed to be too pointy?:eek:

[husaberg]

Wasn't the answer to the London knife problem was to make it law that knives aren't allowed to be too pointy?:eek:

how often do you see people kill multiple people in single location knife-killing sprees compared to firearms?
i can only find a few occasions.
the london bridge one. One in Japan where someone killed a heap of handicapped people plus one in chine where 8 men attacked a crowd


Interesting in the UK between 1977 and 2017 the UK population has increased by 10 million people .
the number of police searches o people has decreased.

351277351275351274351276

[TheDemonLord]

Wasn't the answer to the London knife problem was to make it law that knives aren't allowed to be too pointy?:eek:

No shit, on another platform where I was discussing Gun Rights and Law - someone in seriousness suggested the following to stop Firearm crime in NZ

1: Written tests and Oral interview
2: Limit Muzzle Velocities so they aren't fatal
3: Make the projectiles less hard, so they do less damage.


I had a lot of fun pointing out the licencing process for part 1, the absurdity of Point 2 and how terminal ballistics and deformation of projectiles is a thing for point 3.

[TheDemonLord]

how often do you see people kill multiple people in single location knife-killing sprees compared to firearms?
i can only find a few occasions.
the london bridge one. One in Japan where someone killed a heap of handicapped people plus one in chine where 8 men attacked a crowd


Interesting in the UK between 1977 and 2017 the UK population has increased by 10 million people .
the number of police searches o people has decreased.

351277351275351274351276

Isn't it interesting, that when London has the majority of Knife Crime and Boris was Mayor of London between 2008-2016, you see a general downward trend in Knife Crime.

When Sadeeq 'it's part of a modern city' Khan gets into power and revokes Stop and Search - Knife Crime for the country goes sharply (pun intended) up.

As for the first part, about as often as you see Mass Shootings in the UK or Peaceful Trucks or Suicide Bombers.

[sugilite]

Was Biden also smart enough to know about all the drive-by shootings that happened in NZ while our PM was in his country ??

How many houses have died?
Yes it is really bad what is happening with these drive by house shootings, but not comparable to the countless people being murdered in the USA.

[TheDemonLord]

How many houses have died?
Yes it is really bad what is happening with these drive by house shootings, but not comparable to the countless people being murdered in the USA.

Okay then - serious question:

Suppose that one of these Gang attacks is successful - and enough people are shot/killed to constitute a 'Mass Shooting'

Then what?

Will you agree that the new laws (which you have been a fan of) have not worked?
Will you acknowledge that many of the predictions made by Firearm Owners, in NZ, were correct?

Because from my perspective, if this keeps happening, it will be a case of throw enough shit at the wall, eventually something will stick.

[sugilite]

Have their been any reports of what style of guns are being used in these drive by shootings of houses?
Are they the banned Military style semi-automatics and assault rifles?

[TheDemonLord]

Have their been any reports of what style of guns are being used in these drive by shootings of houses?
Are they the banned Military style semi-automatics and assault rifles?

We don't know... Because they haven't caught anyone.

There's been some comments that suggest/hint it was previously legal A-Cat Semi-Autos that were used (Not assault rifles - those are still perfectly legal on a C-Cat licence) - but nothing concrete.

However something to note - is that all the Politicians comments about it show an absolute ignorance about both our Firearm Laws and Firearms themselves - and whilst nothing new - it's irritating to read something so spectacularly wrong.

[Berries]

Okay then - serious question:

Suppose that one of these Gang attacks is successful - and enough people are shot/killed to constitute a 'Mass Shooting'

Then what?

Less gang members to worry about?

[TheDemonLord]

Less gang members to worry about?

Normally, that's the sort of response that gets me lambasted...

And to be fair - if it was just Gang Members killing each other, I'd probably not be too concerned, my prediction is though it won't be a Gang Member that gets killed.

[pete376403]

Okay then - serious question:

Suppose that one of these Gang attacks is successful - and enough people are shot/killed to constitute a 'Mass Shooting'

Then what?.

Hopefully they would be declared a terrorist organisation and appropriate measures would be taken. Not likely though,

[TheDemonLord]

Hopefully they would be declared a terrorist organisation and appropriate measures would be taken. Not likely though,

Spicy!

I want to disagree on the point that organized crime isn't Terrorism... But I also don't want to..

[pete376403]

Spicy!

I want to disagree on the point that organized crime isn't Terrorism... But I also don't want to..
Given that they haven't hit anyone yet I'd suggest it's more like disorganised crime

[sugilite]

He has a very good point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebg2YnBj9II

[TheDemonLord]

He has a very good point.


So, I completely agree on the Mental Health aspect.

TV and Movies - are we really doing this, again? First it was Jazz corrupting our kids, then Rock n Roll, then Horror Movies, then Heavy Metal, then computer games, then....

I would say the infamy that is heaped on Mass Shooters is a factor for someone who seeks notoriety - but Mental Health seems to be a far greater factor.

[husaberg]

Given that they haven't hit anyone yet I'd suggest it's more like disorganised crime

They also tend to use .22.

Operation Tauwhiro in February last year - as of mid-December 2021, 1,369 firearms had been seized and 1,161 arrests made.
The data does indicate a gradual trend upwards in firearms related offences since 2013....
new legislation that, if passed, would allow Firearms Protections Orders to be made that could prohibit serious criminals from having and using guns
It would also set up a gun registry.
"We wanted to make sure we target the most serious offenders."
National police spokesperson Mark Mitchell said his party had been calling for this for some time.

Note the 501 law
501 deporting thousands of seriously hardened and irredeemable criminals since the law was introduced in late 2014. In fact, many people are being deported for low level (but repeated) drug crime and driving offences. The 501 policy applies primarily to non-citizens who have spent at least 12 months in prison.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOXyFcGhrf0

Tangentially related - note the proposed solution, it's not the lazy solution (let's take the guns!) it actually addresses the root of the problem - why do people want to do this in the first place.

That's the hard question, but it's also one that has the higher likelihood of success.

[R650R]

Might have been in another thread but the mini dialogue about training.... relates well to the ending in this doco. First 3/4 is intriguing investigation but last part covers how lack of training and firepower at time cost FBI dearly. Although the ultimate course of tragedy was how long a paper based world took to furnish a copy of suspects licence photo....
I’m sure the relevant people monitors this thread due to its subject. Be good to show to Aunty and Co why this govt needs to stop pussyfooting about when it comes to giving cops tools.


https://youtu.be/n5UVkNhqi_k

[F5 Dave]

TDL should move to Amerca immediately to be the good guy with a gun.

Try a shopping mall. Don't forget to profile Muslims, gays and wimmin.

[TheDemonLord]

TDL should move to Amerca immediately to be the good guy with a gun.

Try a shopping mall. Don't forget to profile Muslims, gays and wimmin.

I've definitely thought about the first part...

[sugilite]

No follow through :nono:

Plenty of "good guys" with a gun will have grandiose ideas they can be a hero. When shit gets real, I would say most would be right there along with those Uvalde cops trembling behind barriers while shitting their pants.

[TheDemonLord]

No follow through :nono:

If I were single and without Family, probably would have attempted in 2019, and more likely successful in 2021.

I've floated the idea though...


Plenty of "good guys" with a gun will have grandiose ideas they can be a hero. When shit gets real, I would say most would be right there along with those Uvalde cops trembling behind barriers while shitting their pants.

I've run across a Motorway to help a Drunk driver who just nose-dived his car into a Barrier.
I've reached into a pickup, to kill the ignition, that had taken out a Power pole and was possibly live.

I genuinely don't know how I'd respond in a gun fight - I suspect the answer would be effort 4/5, Attainment 2/5.

[pritch]

Might have been in another thread but the mini dialogue about training....

Interesting but to an extent FBI propaganda. A lot has been written about the Miami FBI murders, it's over twenty years since I read it but it changed my behaviour when at the range alone.

It's actually demonstrated in this clip, but the guy with the shotgun did not know how to operate a pump action shotgun with one hand. A gap in training, whether his or generally, I don't know. At that time back up weapons were going out of style, but he had one, and as shown it was his back up pistol that finally won the day.

The reference at the end to more powerful weapons is interesting. A lot of rounds were fired by the FBI agents for only a small percentage of hits. A 9mm bullet had come to rest against the heart of one of the crims without penetrating. Instead of working on lifting their hit rate, the FBI decided the answer was more powerful guns.

They opted for 10mm. At the test to choose the ammunition they had a number of factory 10mm rounds and one home load. They chose the home load.
Not long after the introdcution of the new 10mm Glocks the guns started breaking. The newly adopted special FBI 10mm round was too hot.

There is a movie too, "In The Line Of Duty."

[R650R]

Interesting but to an extent FBI propaganda. A lot has been written about the Miami FBI murders, it's over twenty years since I read it but it changed my behaviour when at the range alone.

It's actually demonstrated in this clip, but the guy with the shotgun did not know how to operate a pump action shotgun with one hand. A gap in training, whether his or generally, I don't know. At that time back up weapons were going out of style, but he had one, and as shown it was his back up pistol that finally won the day.

The reference at the end to more powerful weapons is interesting. A lot of rounds were fired by the FBI agents for only a small percentage of hits. A 9mm bullet had come to rest against the heart of one of the crims without penetrating. Instead of working on lifting their hit rate, the FBI decided the answer was more powerful guns.

They opted for 10mm. At the test to choose the ammunition they had a number of factory 10mm rounds and one home load. They chose the home load.
Not long after the introdcution of the new 10mm Glocks the guns started breaking. The newly adopted special FBI 10mm round was too hot.

There is a movie too, "In The Line Of Duty."

Yeah I wondered too with at least five agents why didn’t at least onrctry to stay calm and just make shots that count. Mind you since Vietnam USA tactic has been spray and pray.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah I wondered too with at least five agents why didn’t at least onrctry to stay calm and just make shots that count. Mind you since Vietnam USA tactic has been spray and pray.

Keeping calm and making the shots count is one thing, but volume of fire is another - all the time the enemy are ducking because they have incoming heading their way, they are not returning with accurate fire on you.

So, whilst the characterization of 'Spray and Pray' isn't unwarranted per se, it's not without it's tactical merits.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmyyEbvDgr8


Too good not to share.

[pritch]

Yeah I wondered too with at least five agents why didn’t at least onrctry to stay calm and just make shots that count. Mind you since Vietnam USA tactic has been spray and pray.

One of the FBI agents was a "super cop." His job was to train other cops in gunfighting and such. He wore glasses though, and when they rammed the bad guys' car his glasses flew off. He spent the entire proceeding hiding under a car 'cause he couldn't see.

The FBI knew the sort of suspects they were after and knew how they were armed, yet they had no armour and were outgunned. Apart from some personal bravery the entire effort did not reflect particularly well on the FBI.

[husaberg]

One of the FBI agents was a "super cop." His job was to train other cops in gunfighting and such. He wore glasses though, and when they rammed the bad guys' car his glasses flew off. He spent the entire proceeding hiding under a car 'cause he couldn't see.

The FBI knew the sort of suspects they were after and knew how they were armed, yet they had no armour and were outgunned. Apart from some personal bravery the entire effort did not reflect particularly well on the FBI.

If only they had used a well-armed militia.
The answer of course is more gun as more guns is always bettererer:lol:

[TheDemonLord]

If only they had used a well-armed militia.
The answer of course is more gun as more guns is always bettererer:lol:

You mean like how Ulvade was stopped? Or how the Bell Tower sniper was suppressed? Or the North Hollywood shootout?

[R650R]

How fast does this turn bad!


https://youtu.be/-k5niWr3Elg

[pete376403]

About as bad as a Chicago Fourth of July parade. The main difference will be that the cop can claim "I feared for my life" and will not suffer any consequences.

[TheDemonLord]

About as bad as a Chicago Fourth of July parade. The main difference will be that the cop can claim "I feared for my life" and will not suffer any consequences.

To be fair - anyone who can prove they feared for their life can do the same.

[R650R]

Multiple body cams, more poor shooting.... slightly comedic part where police dog groaning at missing the action triggers some Siri type voice activated device in car.


https://youtu.be/mvVfKW4HzzA

[sugilite]

Well this makes a lot more sense than the other bullshit people use to make out the 2nd amendment is all about allowing people to take up arms against the government :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NyHbjmAQoM

[TheDemonLord]

Well this makes a lot more sense than the other bullshit people use to make out the 2nd amendment is all about allowing people to take up arms against the government :rolleyes:

I mean, it's not like James Madison wrote about it in Federalist number 46 or anything...


Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.

Also - my Ears must have been Burning, because I came to post in this thread - specifically to make the point:

"The good guy with a Gun argument is just a Fallacy" crowd have been awfully, deafeningly silent on Indiana mall shooting, where an active shooter was shot by someone with Constitutional Carry.

One 22 year old, with just a Pistol, at a range of 40 yards, putting 8 out of 10 shots on target against a potential shooter armed with a Rifle.

Turns out the Good Guy with a Gun argument is 100% accurate.

[pete376403]

"The good guy with a Gun argument is just a Fallacy" crowd have been awfully, deafeningly silent on Indiana mall shooting, where an active shooter was shot by someone with Constitutional Carry.

One 22 year old, with just a Pistol, at a range of 40 yards, putting 8 out of 10 shots on target against a potential shooter armed with a Rifle.

Turns out the Good Guy with a Gun argument is 100% accurate.

In this one case. Against all the other times when it wasn't. (eg all the cops running around Ulvade, or any of the other mass shootings) Wouldn't you say this is a statistical anomaly? No of course you wouldn't, because this single case supports your position.

[TheDemonLord]

In this one case. Against all the other times when it wasn't. (eg all the cops running around Ulvade, or any of the other mass shootings) Wouldn't you say this is a statistical anomaly? No of course you wouldn't, because this single case supports your position.

Uvalde was also stopped by a Good Guy with a Gun.

(Off duty border Patrol agent with a privately owned Firearm).

This is without pulling a semantic trick of saying the Police are Good Guys with Guns.

Edit:

Since I feel a more well-rounded answer is warranted - In almost all cases, the thing that stops a Mass Shooter (or anyone intent on Mass Death and Destruction) is an Armed response. Whether that be from Private individuals or the Police.

If it's the Police, there is going to be a delay between the action starting, a call coming in, Police being dispatched to the area and then engaging with the threat.

Of the factors the predict how many people a Mass Shooter is going to be able to kill, I would say Time is probably the biggest factor. Others include average engagement distance, Number of People, Mobility of the shooter, restrictions to egress etc.

I cite these factors because of the deadliest mass shootings they are often at close range, over an extended period of time, with a large density of people in a relatively enclosed area, where the shooter had free reign of movement.

If there is a completely disarmed population, then a potential Mass Shooter has the time of an Average Police response to commit their acts. Let's go with the best case scenario for New Zealand - that's 18 minutes.

How many shots do you think a competent shooter could fire, with a Bolt Action or Pump action, aimed fire - 20 rounds a Minute? That's 360 rounds fired before the Police show up. If I use the 2022 response times (which are over an hour) - I think the shooter would go broke from the cost of Ammo long before the Police showed up.

Now replay that scenario with an armed citizen - the response time goes from a matter of minutes to a matter of seconds - how many shots could that same shooter get off in 15 seconds? about 5? maybe 10? Even with the Indiana case, where it was an AR style rifle, the shooter didn't even empty the magazine before he was engaged and fatally wounded.

The reason there aren't that many examples of this happening, even in the US is for a number of reasons:

1: A Mass shooting is a statistically rare event (at the individual level, not at the national level)
2: CCP holders are about 1% of the population (so also statistically rare)
3: A large number of these shootings happen in Gun-free zones
4: Where a potential Mass shooting event was stopped, because of the low body count, this will not get the same level of reporting/coverage as an event with a high body count

To that end, if every individual or a significant proportion of individuals are potentially in a position be deputized Law Enforcement, then this cuts the amount of time someone has to commit violent acts.

There are other ramifications that are worth noting and there are of course downsides - the reality is that Evil will always exist and people who are intent on committing it will always find a way.

[husaberg]

In this one case. Against all the other times when it wasn't. (eg all the cops running around Ulvade, or any of the other mass shootings) Wouldn't you say this is a statistical anomaly? No of course you wouldn't, because this single case supports your position.

You need to dismiss all stats that dont suit the nra.
like the fact that the "bad guys" with the "legal guns" kill 1000's of times more people.

The statistical problem is the only time they are bad guys is after they go on the shooting rampage right up until then they are of course "good guys" with a gun exercising their constitutional god-given right.
Other good guys are people in NZ not obeying the gun laws as they dont like them. :innocent:

351476
This is a list of all nz mass death shootings by individuals for nearly a century, note any patterns.....

[TheDemonLord]

You need to dismiss all stats that dont suit the nra.
like the fact that the "bad guys" with the "legal guns" kill 1000's of times more people.

No, because the Bad Guys don't have "Legal Guns" they have "Illegal Guns"


The statistical problem is the only time they are bad guys is after they go on the shooting rampage right up until then they are of course "good guys" with a gun exercising their constitutional god-given right.

Yeah, nah... Almost all 'Mass Shooters' have some dodgy history.

The Chch fuckwit had multiple complaints made about him from the Shooting Club, not to mention the Police didn't vet his licence properly.
The Port Arthur Fuckwit tortured Animals and had complaints made about him
The Aramoana Fuckwit committed crimes
The Dunblaine Fuckwit had a litany of complaints made about him

That's just off the top of my head, Pretty sure the Las Vegas Fuckwit was on certain medication for Mental issues, same with the Uvalde Fuckwit.


Other good guys are people in NZ not obeying the gun laws as they dont like them. :innocent:

Indeed, just like Schindler - blindly following the Law does not make you good and Moral ;)

[pritch]

"The good guy with a Gun argument is just a Fallacy" crowd have been awfully, deafeningly silent on Indiana mall shooting, where an active shooter was shot by someone with Constitutional Carry.



I'll see your Indiana mall and raise you an Uvalde where some 400 good guys with guns did nowt for over an hour. Although nobody much thinks they are good guys now.

Oh, and the last good guy with a gun who took out the bad guy that I read about, was killed by the police when they arrived on the scene.

[TheDemonLord]

I'll see your Indiana mall and raise you an Uvalde where some 400 good guys with guns did nowt for over an hour. Although nobody much thinks they are good guys now.

Oh, and the last good guy with a gun who took out the bad guy that I read about, was killed by the police when they arrived on the scene.

Welcome Back Pritch.

See my comment about Uvalde - Off Duty BPD with Private Firearm - AKA Good Guy, With Gun.

I'm not sure you can call the Uvalde Police Officers 'Good Guys' - by any stretch of the Imagination. Before or After.

[Kickaha]

AKA Good Guy, With Gun.

A myth perpetuated by the NRA and it's sycophantic followers

More are stopped by unarmed civilians than good guys with guns

[TheDemonLord]

A myth perpetuated by the NRA and it's sycophantic followers

More are stopped by unarmed civilians than good guys with guns

And more are 'stopped' by the Killer themselves....

The low incidence of people concealed carrying and the location where these often occur ('Gun free zones') means it's statistically unlikely that when a Mass Shooter starts a rampage, there will be an Armed citizen in the vicinity to return fire.

Also skewing the stats are the fact that there are instances where because it was stopped it did not meet the threshold to be considered a 'Mass Shooting'

But as I said above - when you factor in the Police (who, in most cases, are good guys with guns) combined with armed private citizens, Good Guys with Guns represent the majority of how a Mass Shooter is stopped.

[sugilite]

Also - my Ears must have been Burning, because I came to post in this thread - specifically to make the point:

"The good guy with a Gun argument is just a Fallacy" crowd have been awfully, deafeningly silent on Indiana mall shooting, where an active shooter was shot by someone with Constitutional Carry.

One 22 year old, with just a Pistol, at a range of 40 yards, putting 8 out of 10 shots on target against a potential shooter armed with a Rifle.

Turns out the Good Guy with a Gun argument is 100% accurate.

What percentage of shootings have been resolved with a good guy with a gun? Sweet fuck all would be my guess. Duh :rolleyes:

[TheDemonLord]

351476
This is a list of all nz mass death shootings by individuals for nearly a century, note any patterns.....

Yes, it's an incredibly rare event for starters, most of them using a Shotgun and .22 and also some of your info isn't correct:

Chch shooter had multiple complaints about him to the NZ Police by shooting club members (3), also didn't meet Licence requirements.
The Bain case is a large unknown.
Brian Schlaepfer had issues with Mental Illness.
David Gray was not a Good Guy:


In January 1990, he threatened an assistant of the bookshop with what appeared to be a shotgun in a cardboard box, and Brosnan served him with a trespass notice in February.

Which is a crime, and grounds for having a licence revoked.

Stanley Graham was also not a good guy:


His behaviour took a turn for the worse, and he began threatening and abusing passing neighbours.

Threatening and abuse is a crime, which is grounds for having a licence revoked.

So out of the 7 incidents, 4 of them had sufficient evidence BEFORE the crimes they committed to revoke their licences. A 5th potentially and there's no information about Noema Rika (doesn't even have a Wikipedia page).

Yes, I am seeing a pattern: Poor management of Firearms Licensing by the NZ Police by not revoking licenses of individuals who commit crimes or otherwise no longer meet the Fit and Proper person test is a factor in the deadliest of NZ Mass Shootings.

I'm also seeing the pattern that the information you provided is biased and incorrect.

[TheDemonLord]

What percentage of shootings have been resolved with a good guy with a gun? Sweet fuck all would be my guess. Duh :rolleyes:

If we include Police (who are good guys with guns) it's 27%. If we exclude police, it's about 6%

However, as pointed out, only about 1% of people in the US Concealed Carry and the majority of Mass Shooters specifically target area where they are unlikely to meet armed resistance (such as Schools and 'Gun Free Zones'). Thus making the combination of a Mass Shooter attempting a Mass Shooting and there being someone who is Concealed Carrying a statistically unlikely combination.

If we were to re-run the stats, but excluding those where there wasn't an Armed Citizen present, I suspect that we would see the Percentage stopped climb significantly.

My point was not to say 'The Majority' are stopped in this way, but to show that a single individual with a 15 second response time was a more effective way to stop a Mass Shooter than an entire Police Department with an hour response time. Also that such a rapid response by an Armed individual saved a lot of lives.

[sugilite]

All those dead kids are definitely worth the 6%. Keep the good guy bullshit going.

[Kickaha]

the majority of Mass Shooters specifically target area where they are unlikely to meet armed resistance (such as Schools and 'Gun Free Zones').

No, no they don't, they target areas where the people they want to kill are regardless of that areas status

[F5 Dave]

I wonder how the tenure of the NRA policies would last, if next event they were the victims. And I'm not suggesting they should be, or anyone should be, but we'd see some decent hypocrisy I'm sure.

[husaberg]

No, no they don't, they target areas where the people they want to kill are regardless of that areas status

Correct most of the schools had armed security.


In fact there were two armed law enforcement agents present at Columbine High School during the assault by Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold that left 15 dead and many more wounded. They twice engaged and fired at Eric Harris in an effort to stop the shooting, but were unsuccessful because they were outgunned by the assault weapons wielded by the two teens.

[Jefferson County Sheriff's Deputy Neil] Gardner [the school's community resource officer], seeing Harris working with his gun, leaned over the top of the car and fired four shots. He was 60 yards from the gunman.
Jefferson County Deputy Paul Smoke
Harris, leaning out of a broken window on the set of double doors into the school, begins shooting a rifle. [Jefferson County Deputy Paul] Smoker fires three rounds at him and the gunman disappears from the window.
https://www.usnews.com/debate-club/should-there-be-more-armed-guards-in-schools/armed-law-enforcement-didnt-stop-columbine



After the shooting at Columbine High School in 1999, Congress began providing federal dollars for campus officers, and officials made — and remade — security protocols inside schools, from lockdown training drills to elaborate identification requirements. Nationally, 19 percent of elementary school students, 45 percent of middle schoolers and 67 percent of high school students attend a school with a campus police officer, according to a 2018 report from the Urban Institute.


n officer on duty at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., in 2018 has been accused of hiding as a teenage gunman killed 17 people.
The armed deputy who was on campus at Marjory Stoneman Douglas high school when a gunman massacred 17 people stood outside the building as it occurred and did not go in to engage the shooter, the Broward County sheriff, Scott Israel, said on Thursday.



Robb Elementary had security. It didn’t stop a massacre.
Texas officials are revisiting efforts to bolster mental health services and harden school security as families grieve the tragic attack at Robb Elementary School.


948 school shootings since Sandy Hook prove swift policy changes and more guns don't work
a 2020 review of gun policy research found no evidence that the presence of more guns had any effect on gun violence. In fact, unarmed staff or the shooters themselves are more likely to end a school shooting than someone with a gun.

[TheDemonLord]

I wonder how the tenure of the NRA policies would last, if next event they were the victims. And I'm not suggesting they should be, or anyone should be, but we'd see some decent hypocrisy I'm sure.

I've heard this refrain often - for example Sugi's comments of how quickly the Laws would change if Politicians were the target.

And it's something I've thought about.

Firstly - there is *quite* the history of US Presidents being assassinated or attempted to be assassinated (Reagan, Lincoln, JFK, Clinton and GWB) - and yet, the Constitution holds.

The second problem is one of Mindset: The NRA accepts that Evil People will always find ways to do Evil. Case in point the completely home-made shotgun, with home made Black Powder used to assassinate Shinzo Abe - remembering that Japan has had very very very strict Firearm laws for almost a century - yet didn't stop someone from manufacturing a functioning and lethal Firearm.

Given that Evil exists, the only way to counter it, is to be prepared: Tools, Training, Mindset.

So if someone attacked an NRA convention, firstly they likely would be eliminated extremely quickly and secondly - the NRA mindset would accept that you cannot control others, you can only control yourself.

[TheDemonLord]

No, no they don't, they target areas where the people they want to kill are regardless of that areas status

That assumes that there is a person they specifically want to kill.

There are some who simply want to make the whole world feel as bad as they think the world makes them feel. For them, they want the maximum body count. You don't see them going up to the local Military Base to shoot it up. No, they go for where there are going to be large numbers of weak and defenceless people so they can inflict the maximum amount of carnage as some form of Revenge on the world.

Their Motivation specifically rules out targetting people capable of fighting back and often they want to target Children as they are 'innocent' and so leave the deepest emotional scars.

So Yes, they often do.

[TheDemonLord]

Correct most of the schools had armed security.

Most? At best you've given 3 examples.

2 of which aren't really applicable due to failures of certain people to do their job.

The Columbine one is more interesting - firstly your info isn't correct, it was a single police officer on duty (Not Armed Security) and secondly - Assault Weapons? Nope. Not that Assault Weapons has a technical definition - but it's commonly used to refer to MSRs (Modern Sporting Rifles) - firing Rifle Calibre ammunition - which neither of them had - 12 Gauge Shotguns and 9 mm Carbines.

The officer returned fire and called for backup but didn't press the attackers, 2 against 1. Once Backup arrived, they surrounded the Library which was when the two shooters committed Suicide.

The ultimate conclusion was still forced by 'Good Guys with Guns'

[pritch]

I wonder how the tenure of the NRA policies would last, if next event they were the victims. And I'm not suggesting they should be, or anyone should be, but we'd see some decent hypocrisy I'm sure.

The NRA are good for hypocrisy. If a black guy has a legal problem arising from gun ownership they got nothin'. The 2nd Amendment is "whites only."

[TheDemonLord]

The NRA are good for hypocrisy. If a black guy has a legal problem arising from gun ownership they got nothin'. The 2nd Amendment is "whites only."

Let's ask Colion Noir about that and....

Oh.

Oh Dear:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_cfur2IFw

[pritch]

Let's ask Colion Noir about that and....

Oh.

Oh Dear:



Not really. You found one guy. There are continually stories about black guys who, while acting legally, run into trouble with the cops. The NRA don't want to know. As was discussed in the clip, Mr Nior is considered by many to be the token black guy. He has the right name for a token black guy though. Mr Noir, 10/10 for that.

[TheDemonLord]

Not really. You found one guy.

There's plenty, if you only take time to look. Colion specifically worked with the NRA.


There are continually stories about black guys who, while acting legally, run into trouble with the cops. The NRA don't want to know.

Plenty of stories eh? I'm sure if we were to look at the elements in most of the stories, we'd see factors that are not to do with Race that are applicable.


As was discussed in the clip, Mr Nior is considered by many to be the token black guy. He has the right name for a token black guy though. Mr Noir, 10/10 for that.

Wow.

Can you hear the Racism in that statement? Why don't you go ahead and call him an Uncle Tom or a Coon? Jesus Christ.

[husaberg]

Not really. You found one guy. There are continually stories about black guys who, while acting legally, run into trouble with the cops. The NRA don't want to know. As was discussed in the clip, Mr Nior is considered by many to be the token black guy. He has the right name for a token black guy though. Mr Noir, 10/10 for that.

The sooner everyone stops entering a dialog with him the sooner he just goes back to trying to convert strangers to his religion with the rest of the J.Vs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVJIWl74Qbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eb0uyE2jCk

[TheDemonLord]

The sooner everyone stops entering a dialog with him the sooner he just goes back to trying to convert strangers to his religion with the rest of the J.Vs

What Religion and why don't you follow your own advice?

[sugilite]

I've heard this refrain often - for example Sugi's comments of how quickly the Laws would change if Politicians were the target.

And it's something I've thought about.


Think harder, I'm not talking about a once in a blue moon presidential assassination attempt, but rather US school shooting level of incidence - in other words, all the fucking time.
And the perps are looking for notoriety, hence targeting schools for maximum shock value rather than your ill thought out "low gun locales". Dead kids are actually shocking to most, except those that cannot get over their shallow and fanciful 2nd amendment gun rights narratives. If you put just a little more thought into this shit - the truth of these things might actually be revealed to you.

[TheDemonLord]

Think harder, I'm not talking about a once in a blue moon presidential assassination attempt

Yet the point remains - when Politicians were attacked (and in some cases, killed) - the Laws didn't change. And they aren't once in a blue moon either - it's about once a year that an attempt is made on a President with some degree of success (e.g. shots fired or a cordon breached or similar)


And the perps are looking for notoriety, hence targeting schools for maximum shock value rather than your ill thought out "low gun locales".

JBP has done a series of lectures on this - Notoriety is certainly a component of it, but it's much deeper than that. You are partially right that it's shock value - it's more about the destruction of Innocence. They want everyone to feel as bad as they do.

But hand-in-hand with that is they want easy targets - hence why they target places where there are people who are unlikely to be armed and unlikely to be able to fight back.


Dead kids are actually shocking to most, except those that cannot get over their shallow and fanciful 2nd amendment gun rights narratives. If you put just a little more thought into this shit - the truth of these things might actually be revealed to you.

Indeed they are - although it's funny how each side of the Political Spectrum gets worked up.

Republicans are called heartless for not breaching the Constitution on the basis of ~900 Children a year murdered with Firearms.
Democrats are happy to shout with glee at the nearly 1,000,000 Abortions performed yearly.

I will also note that of those 900, the Majority are teenagers involved in Gang Violence in Democrat run areas.

Once you look at the actual data - the total number killed per year is relatively small. Doesn't mean it's right - Banning Guns won't stop it.

Cases in point, look at Norway - had a massive Mass Shooting by Anders Brevik, they talked about changing the laws but in the end didn't (because Norway has a long tradition of Civillian Marksmanship), Semi-Autos are still legal over there (although you will find news articles saying they were going to be banned in 2019 - the actual Norwegian legislation still says they are legal).

How many Mass Shootings have they had since? Well there was one carried out by Islamists this year (2 people dead) and one carried out by a guy using a Bow and Arrow (5 people - and good luck banning Wood....)

Also case in Point - here in NZ - There have been more Firearm incidents since Labour banned Firearms than before, hell I saw this about where I used to live: Didn't happen when Semi-Autos were still legal (https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/471920/arrests-made-after-spate-of-auckland-shootings)

Then there's the likes of P.A Luty, Evelyn Owen etc. People who made successful submachine guns at home with hobbyist tools and equipment. That's without getting into 3D printing

But let's assume you manage to Ban all Guns and all ability to make Guns (Like Japan - Oh...) - well, do you remember the Trucks of Peace and how many people where able to be killed by using a Truck? What about a trip to your Local RD1 - all the things needed to make the same explosives used in the Oklahoma city bombing are available.

Malevolent and Motivated people, despite best efforts, will ALWAYS find a way to inflict Death and Destruction. No matter what the Law says, Evil will always find a way.

Therefore the only way to defend against it is to make sure you have the tools needed stop it.

That's the cold hard truth of it.

[sugilite]

Yet the point remains - when Politicians were attacked (and in some cases, killed) - the Laws didn't change. And they aren't once in a blue moon either - it's about once a year that an attempt is made on a President with some degree of success (e.g. shots fired or a cordon breached or similar)

19 child deaths in Uvalde alone, how many presidents this century been assassinated you toss pot? Your writings are simply misleading pieces of pooh designed to prop up your fragile ego that simply cannot fathom it is entirely wrong.

[husaberg]

Here we are, years later we still we have a small minority fringe people moaning about losing access to owning a gun they never even needed in the first place.
Its now many years past the time you should have figured out why its was a stand supported by the majority of NZ.
No different than our stand condemning the French terrorists who bombed the Rainbow Warrior or the Nuclear free zone we made in and around New Zealand.

The change in NZ law is about lives, not money or some pathetic weapon you want to have for pose value or fun. Its not about your "perceived right" to have a weapon you don't actually need.
NZ doesn't have a right to bear arms in its constitution. Nor do you need a semi auto Military style assault rifles or similar, you simply want one.
People in NZ can still continue own a firearm as a privilege, to hunt with, as a hobby or sport or collecting.
But simply as a result of 50 innocent people getting killed in the mater of minutes by a total loser, you longer have that privilege anymore to own a military style semi Automatic anymore on a A cat licence. Its over.
you are not allowed one that fits a large mag or a butt-stock that's modified in the effort to get around the no pistol-grip rule.
Its over.
For those that continue on moaning. Man up and face facts. ITS OVER.
If you don't like our gun laws move to the US.

[Kickaha]

Here we are, years later we still we have people moaning like little bitch's about losing access to owning a gun they never even needed in the first place.
Its now many years past the time you should have figured out why its was a stand supported by the majority of NZ.

The change in NZ law is about lives, not money or some pathetic weapon you want to have for pose value or fun. Its not about your "perceived right" to have a weapon you don't actually need.
NZ doesn't have a right to bear arms in its constitution. Nor do you need a semi auto Military style assault rifles or similar, you simply want one.
People in NZ can still continue own a firearm as a privilege, to hunt with, as a hobby or sport or collecting.
But simply as a result of 50 innocent people getting killed in the mater of minutes by a total loser, you longer have that privilege anymore to own a military style semi Automatic anymore on a A cat licence. Its over.
you are not allowed one that fits a large mag or a butt-stock that's modified in the effort to get around the no pistol-grip rule.
Its over.
For those that continue on moaning. Man up and face facts. ITS OVER.
If you don't like our gun laws move to the US.

What a total load of shit, It wasn't about lives, it was knee jerk reaction to make a decision which given what had just happened was always going to be the popular option in peoples minds and score points with the public

How much safer has it made NZ, fuck all if any given the increase in gun crime

[TheDemonLord]

Here we are, years later we still we have a small minority fringe people moaning about losing access to owning a gun they never even needed in the first place.
Its now many years past the time you should have figured out why its was a stand supported by the majority of NZ.
No different than our stand condemning the French terrorists who bombed the Rainbow Warrior or the Nuclear free zone we made in and around New Zealand.

The change in NZ law is about lives, not money or some pathetic weapon you want to have for pose value or fun. Its not about your "perceived right" to have a weapon you don't actually need.
NZ doesn't have a right to bear arms in its constitution. Nor do you need a semi auto Military style assault rifles or similar, you simply want one.
People in NZ can still continue own a firearm as a privilege, to hunt with, as a hobby or sport or collecting.
But simply as a result of 50 innocent people getting killed in the mater of minutes by a total loser, you longer have that privilege anymore to own a military style semi Automatic anymore on a A cat licence. Its over.
you are not allowed one that fits a large mag or a butt-stock that's modified in the effort to get around the no pistol-grip rule.
Its over.
For those that continue on moaning. Man up and face facts. ITS OVER.
If you don't like our gun laws move to the US.

Is it Over? Less than 30% handed in suggests it's really not.


But guess what - I could replace every reference to a Gun to say a Motorcycle - and you, by your own principles, would have to give up Motorcycling.
I could replace every reference to a Gun and say Meat (in some Vegan's Fevourish wet dream) - and you, by your own principles, would have to give up Meat.
I could replace every reference to a Gun and say Tools - and you, by your own principles, would have to give up DIY, Home repair, Bike Repair.
I could replace every reference to a Gun and say Swimming Pools - and you, by your own principles, would have to give up Swimming.
I could replace every reference to a Gun and say Homosexuals - and you, by your own principles, would have to Hate the Gays.
I could replace every reference to a Gun and say Jews - and you, by your own principles, would... I'll let you figure that out.


See - that argument can be twisted to 'justify' banning just about Anything and Everything. Until you are left, by your own logic, naked and without owning anything. All at the tyrannical behest of everyone else.

This is the post where your mask slips - here we see the real face of the Fascistic Tyrant, the prideful boasts of how the world would be perfect if we just ban this thing and Murder this dissident - then we can get to Utopia.

Wheras I accept that the principles which allow me my freedom are the same that protects everyone elses. I accept that allowing other people their freedom must, necessarily, mean that there is a risk to Me.

In your hellish scenario - there is no limiting principle nothing to stop the inevitable push for more restrictions, more 'Safety', more more more more - it never stops and it never ends. You might lie to yourself and say 'We'll stop when we achieve X' - but they never do, you are simply ousted by the next group of radicals who go even further. Eventually it leads to destruction of the individual.

In my scenario - the limiting principle is me, I cannot force something on others, I can only control myself. So for the things that I perceive as the biggest threat to myself, I can take measures to avoid and mitigate them. That self-limiting principle mean that my ethics can never expand to a point beyond where it was intended.

But hey - you sleep well at night - knowing all those Eeeeeeevil Semi-Autos are still out there and knowing that Firearm crime has increased to the point where there are multiple drive-by shootings in Auckland on a regular basis.

[F5 Dave]

Actually Warwick. Look at Auss. Demonstrably safer.

Actually demonstrably. Less guns. Less gun violence.

Fuck America.

And TDL swallow one. .

[TheDemonLord]

19 child deaths in Uvalde alone, how many presidents this century been assassinated you toss pot?

1/46 (and I'm being generous and including all the presidents, not just the ones in this century) is a much higher risk than 19/73,000,000.

Point was not about Children per se - but about the idea that if Politicians faced a threat they would change the law. Clearly the Politicians face the threat but none support repealing or amending it.


Your writings are simply misleading pieces of pooh designed to prop up your fragile ego that simply cannot fathom it is entirely wrong.

Wrong about what? My point is that this law Objectively has not made NZ any safer from Firearm Crime.

Before Labour - can you ever remember a time, ever, where there were multiple shootings in a single night in any part of NZ? We've been lucky that more through sheer luck and incompetence (and the fact that the Gangs are primarily motivated by Profit) that we haven't had serious injuries or deaths from the spate of gun crime at the moment.

you might 'feel' safer, but there are umpteen ways that someone with sufficient motivation could use commonly available tools/materials/items to commit acts of terrorism on par with Christchurch.

[F5 Dave]

Sorry, I didn't hear that over the cum dribbling out of your mouth.

[TheDemonLord]

Actually Warwick. Look at Auss. Demonstrably safer.

Actually demonstrably. Less guns. Less gun violence.

Fuck America.

Did it though? See Aus is often touted as a shining example - the problem is that is you look at the overall trend and you exclude the Port Arthur shooting as an outlier - the trend before and after the ban is almost identical. Which is to say, it had no meaningful impact.

Since the ban, there have been up to 10 Mass Shootings (that is, the FBI's definition of a Mass Shooting) and IIRC two of them involved Firearms banned in 1996. So it hasn't stopped anything.

Last I looked the gangs in Australia were charging $15K for an Unused (that is, not used in any criminal enterprise) AR. If you were the rare type of person hell-bent on causing Death and Destruction - $15K really isn't that hard to obtain. Even easier if you have no intention of paying it back.

[TheDemonLord]

Sorry, I didn't hear that over the cum dribbling out of your mouth.

The fact you want to give yourself that mental image is both mildly flattering and mostly disturbing.

But hey, if that floats your boat - You do you.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcIdnn7CN88

[R650R]

https://youtu.be/qrh8Ra0W0-I

[pritch]

https://youtu.be/qrh8Ra0W0-I

You can tell they were no hopers. They were parked on a handicapped park. :whistle:

[R650R]

You can tell they were no hopers. They were parked on a handicapped park. :whistle:

I love that you called it by it’s proper name.... ironically more people prob offended by that than the armed robbery lol

[R650R]

ATF agent fails to promptly show id and follow instruction.... gets tasered

After his white privilege and federal privilege cards fail to be displayed in time he self identifies as George Floyd and tries the can’t breath and medical condition playcard.... trouble is he’s making a lot of noise for someone making that claim....

How dare those white cops treat a white federal agent like that (sarcasm alert) lol


https://youtu.be/gb1MVFDy_tw

[pritch]

The Uvalde Schools police chief has been fired. He was afraid for his safety if he attended the meeting - no surprises there. The letter from his lawyer reads like it's from an alternate reality.

https://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=360724&fm=psp,tst

[F5 Dave]

Yeah I'd be scared as fuck if I had fo face crazy people with guns. I'd not act like a hero, more like a frightened child. Just admit it. You're going to get shot.

It would almost be better that these pricks didn't have firearms available so readily. Despite chest puffing small dicks saying they want to be Stallone with big compensation devices. Protect the whatever amendment!

I'd hide behind TDL while the bullets ripped through his chest cavity saving my more precious life. Thank you TDL for sacrificing your blighted existence of subservient obedience in the English tradition. But use R666 as body armour.

[husaberg]

I'd hide behind TDL while the bullets ripped through his chest cavity saving my more precious life. Thank you TDL for sacrificing your blighted existence of subservient obedience in the English tradition. But use R666 as body armour.
word is, a few people could hide behind TLDR.
when he said he could have been a pilot
he was talking pilot <!-- Codes by HTMLcodes.ws -->
<marquee behavior="slide" direction="left">Whale</marquee>

[F5 Dave]

Well lean body mass would not slow down the bullets. Doughboy flab is far more effective.

[TheDemonLord]

Funny how certain people, who loudly complain they have me on ignore and decry that sometimes I quote them, clutching their pearls that they 'haven't responded to me in years' - still feel compelled to reference me, unprompted.


I'm sure there's a term for such behavior and I doubt that most professionals would regard such a behavior as 'Healthy'.

[sugilite]

1/46 (and I'm being generous and including all the presidents, not just the ones in this century) is a much higher risk than 19/73,000,000.

Point was not about Children per se - but about the idea that if Politicians faced a threat they would change the law. Clearly the Politicians face the threat but none support repealing or amending it.




Please just quit with the fuckwittery trolling. You know damn well that if the pollies started dropping in large groups like the poor school kids, then the 2nd amendment would be amended in a blink of an eye.
For instance an uvalde worth in the senate, then the next week another uvalde worth in the house. even amounts of pollies from both sides to make it a bipartisan push.

[TheDemonLord]

Please just quit with the fuckwittery trolling. You know damn well that if the pollies started dropping in large groups like the poor school kids, then the 2nd amendment would be amended in a blink of an eye.
For instance an uvalde worth in the senate, then the next week another uvalde worth in the house. even amounts of pollies from both sides to make it a bipartisan push.

Welcome back, hope you enjoyed your Holiday (from KB at least).

My point was, despite JFK and Reagan (and some miscellaneous other attempts on other Presidents) they didn't change the Laws.

If the Politicians can hold to the 2nd Amendment when the head of the Government is shot, the foundation upon which your point rests is undermined.

That said, perhaps politics would be a lot better if there was a Uvalde worth of Senate and house reps happened...

[sugilite]

Welcome back, hope you enjoyed your Holiday (from KB at least).

My point was, despite JFK and Reagan (and some miscellaneous other attempts on other Presidents) they didn't change the Laws.

If the Politicians can hold to the 2nd Amendment when the head of the Government is shot, the foundation upon which your point rests is undermined.

That said, perhaps politics would be a lot better if there was a Uvalde worth of Senate and house reps happened...

Undermined - really? The last successful assassination was 59 years ago! And you think today's snowflake pollies would have the same inclination not to change the laws if they lost 38 of their own in a week long rampage. :laugh:

Josh Hawley big noting wanker, then when shit gets real, runs like a little bitch :laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-x4andBT64

Or maybe the democrats are a party of honor and will stick to their guns ;) after a large massacre of their compatriots....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIBdZl2RqLk

[TheDemonLord]

Undermined - really? The last successful assassination was 59 years ago!

I mean Reagan was pretty close, there was a couple of other notable attempts.


And you think today's snowflake pollies would have the same inclination not to change the laws if they lost 38 of their own in a week long rampage. :laugh:

What an interesting point... Are you suggesting that there is some difference between the Politicians of Today and the Politicians of 59 years ago, perhaps a belief and adherance to principles and the Constitution? (I know, I know, I'm really grasping at Straws)

In which case, the issue isn't the Firearms, but the Politicians.




Josh Hawley big noting wanker, then when shit gets real, runs like a little bitch :laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-x4andBT64

Or maybe the democrats are a party of honor and will stick to their guns ;) after a large massacre of their compatriots....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIBdZl2RqLk

You are starting to convince me of the idea of some sort of Hunger Games for Politicians...

[TheDemonLord]

On a non-political note.

One for the older generation - What is everyone's thoughts on MilSurp .303 British Ammo? I was sighting in my SMLE the other day and it's shooting a bit high - one of the guys reckons it's because I'm using 150 grain modern ammo, whereas the standard british stuff is around 170-180 grains.

There's some good deals on at the mo for Greek Surplus Ammo - so wondering if anyone has any experience with it?

[scumdog]

On a non-political note.

One for the older generation - What is everyone's thoughts on MilSurp .303 British Ammo? I was sighting in my SMLE the other day and it's shooting a bit high - one of the guys reckons it's because I'm using 150 grain modern ammo, whereas the standard british stuff is around 170-180 grains.

There's some good deals on at the mo for Greek Surplus Ammo - so wondering if anyone has any experience with it?

Always a possibility, how much higher than point of aim was it?

[TheDemonLord]

Always a possibility, how much higher than point of aim was it?

About ~100mm above point of aim at 100m

[pritch]

The material I have handy mostly predates the .303 but a quick look on the 'Net produced the information that the WW2 Mark VII ammunition contained a 174gr bullet. The Mark VIII designed for the Vickers is not recommended for use in rifles.

[TheDemonLord]

The material I have handy mostly predates the .303 but a quick look on the 'Net produced the information that the WW2 Mark VII ammunition contained a 174gr bullet. The Mark VIII designed for the Vickers is not recommended for use in rifles.

That lines up with what I was told - I've done a bit further reading since posting that - some sources indicate that it probably has been Battle-Zero'd for 300 Yards, which is why it's shooting a bit high at 100m.

Not sure if I want to swap out the front post with a different one for a 100m zero.

Decisions Decisions.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

The Greek stuff varies in quality, most of it’s ok.
I did have one batch, quite corroded even after being tumbled, and after few misfire's / hangfires I binned it
Did pull the projectiles though.
You know a Classic Lee loader and your old fired cases and you’re all set to reload ?
Provided you can get powder, primers, projectiles of course ?

[TheDemonLord]

The Greek stuff varies in quality, most of it’s ok.
I did have one batch, quite corroded even after being tumbled, and after few misfire's / hangfires I binned it
Did pull the projectiles though.
You know a Classic Lee loader and your old fired cases and you’re all set to reload ?
Provided you can get powder, primers, projectiles of course ?

I've been looking at getting a Reloading set - for the moment though, my old spent brass is proving excellent currency for Favors.

I did look at a reloading setup, but I'm one of those 'Buy good quality' stuff people, and unfortunately Winter has been pricey this year - so it's on the backburner.

That said - I hear you about the unobtanium of Primers, Powder and Projectiles.

[TheDemonLord]

https://youtube.com/shorts/rQ9KdMbF7Bw

Yes, I am highly amused.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

A new project. Barrel looks great, actions good, stock needs a clean up, but no cracks.

[pritch]

There was a guy in Hawera was married to a Scandewegian lady. He'd import used Husqvarna and Carl Gustaf rifles and sell them here. They came in useful calibres, mostly not quite as steamy as yours though. Enjoy.

[TheDemonLord]

A new project. Barrel looks great, actions good, stock needs a clean up, but no cracks.

That's a lovely looking Rifle, can't wait to see the finished version!

[pritch]

Have you seen the interviews with the Colorado shooter's dad. He was more concerned initially with the thought that his son might be gay than he was with the thought he might be a mass murderer. "Republicans don't do gay."

Except of course they do.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Cleaned up the checkering, 8 coats of tru oil, and touched up the bluing.
Happy with the way she turned out.
351911351912
I wasn’t aiming for new, I reckon she’s earned those dings.

[pritch]

Very nice.

[husaberg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_O1-chxAdk

[R650R]

Will be interesting to see what actual effects arise from this new set of fees. Eventually they will do this with cars as well, no outright bans just make it difficult and super expensive to do anything....


https://youtu.be/c5SBAcqyVgg

[kawaaiguy]

Will be interesting to see what actual effects arise from this new set of fees. Eventually they will do this with cars as well, no outright bans just make it difficult and super expensive to do anything....


https://youtu.be/c5SBAcqyVgg

Just get a vest and gang patch bro. Have all the guns you want.
(Blue vest for ARs, Black leather one for them + everything else)

[sugilite]

I wonder why he took the post of his family xmas photo showing them all holding rifles down now? Maybe it is only when a school in ones own constituency has a mass shooting that it becomes bad taste?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/andy-ogles-nashville-gun-christmas-b2309633.html

[F5 Dave]

Maybe he didn't "Hopes and Prayers " sincerely or regularly enough? <_<

[husaberg]

There is nothing so American as the 4th of July
Your mums apple pie
or sadly now yet another school shooting

https://texashillcountry.com/wp-content/uploads/an-ar-15-rifle-with-us-flag-detailing-on-the-accessories_t20_8OOVOa-2-680x390.jpg
As you know no mater your mental illness its your god given right to have at least 7 firearms with multiple ar15 and similar.

[sugilite]

An easy fix would be to start calling American schools "wombs". Then republicans would be all about protecting the children.

[pete376403]

An easy fix would be to start calling American schools "wombs". Then republicans would be all about protecting the children.

"classwombs" - perfect

[husaberg]

An easy fix would be to start calling American schools "wombs". Then republicans would be all about protecting the children.

Problem for the republicans is if there were less kids killed in school shootings thee would be more available kids for the clergy to molest.

[TheDemonLord]

So - a wee update here - my main rifle is now no-longer officially a Range Queen.

This weekend, you may have noticed a bit of keyboard silence from yours truly, as I went on my first every hunt. Although as you'll see, it ended up being more like 'Armed Tramping'.

I went down to Dannevirke to see the Inlaws and then on Saturday morning, me and a Hunting Buddy (who had more experience) went off up the Ruahine ranges during the Roar to hunt for some Deer.

We went up to Stanfield hut - hunting on the way in - but since we got there around 9:30-10 am to go in, the Deer were still roaring but were slowly seeking shelter during the day. At about 4 pm we went out up the Tamaki River bed to see if we could get anything - but we didn't hear any calls and after a couple of misteps and epic fails from yours truly - with the light fading, we headed back to the hut.

Quick shout-out to the DoC huts - they were well stocked, comfy (for what they were) and we had 2 ladies on Tramp, 2 lads from Taranaki there with their Dog, me and my Hunting Buddy and some guy from Hawkes bay bow-hunting (although not very well - he was practically power-walking through the Bush - too keen for a Deer and no patience).

I've got to say, that in the Hut - it was a strangely pleasant atmosphere - people left thousands of dollars worth of gear unattended in a hut whilst they went off to Hunt in an unlocked hut. Everyone was armed to the teeth (Guns, Knives, bows etc.) but it was incredibly relaxing. it was like a microcosm of 'A well armed society is a polite society'

Anyways, we slept overnight (okayish Mattress, my Sleeping Bag wasn't as warm as I remember and an Inflatable pillow is next on my gear list) - at 6 am we were up, kitted up, waited for light to break over the ridgeline as we hunted out from the Hut back to our Car.

Sadly for me (and lucky for the Deer) the Wind was constantly shifting - now before anyone accuses me of pulling out old Hunter's excuses (which I absolutely am) - we met 4 other groups of Hunters that weekend that all had the same experience - some good stalks, but no safe shots available.

Closest I got was we were traversing out, heard a noise and stopped - made a call, heard a response immediately that sounded about ~200m away - we quietly took up a firing position, I had a live round in the spout (safety still on, but bolt fully closed) - ready for the quarry to appear.

Then we felt the wind on our backs, we waited 10 minutes and called again, we got a reply - but this time it sounded 600m away - we had been rumbled.

I did a couple of stalks into the Bush - but it's thick in that area and without a GPS - I'm not confident going super far off the track. We decided that it's better to have an enjoyable walk in the Bush and get home safe and sound than to get BuckFever and take a stupid risk.

TL;DR - went for a hunt in the Ruahines, didn't get anything, spent overnight in a Hut, met some lovely people, had a good time - got some dirt on the Rifle.... but No Deer.

[caseye]

So - a wee update here - my main rifle is now no-longer officially a Range Queen.

This weekend, you may have noticed a bit of keyboard silence from yours truly, as I went on my first every hunt. Although as you'll see, it ended up being more like 'Armed Tramping'.

I went down to Dannevirke to see the Inlaws and then on Saturday morning, me and a Hunting Buddy (who had more experience) went off up the Ruahine ranges during the Roar to hunt for some Deer.

We went up to Stanfield hut - hunting on the way in - but since we got there around 9:30-10 am to go in, the Deer were still roaring but were slowly seeking shelter during the day. At about 4 pm we went out up the Tamaki River bed to see if we could get anything - but we didn't hear any calls and after a couple of misteps and epic fails from yours truly - with the light fading, we headed back to the hut.

Quick shout-out to the DoC huts - they were well stocked, comfy (for what they were) and we had 2 ladies on Tramp, 2 lads from Taranaki there with their Dog, me and my Hunting Buddy and some guy from Hawkes bay bow-hunting (although not very well - he was practically power-walking through the Bush - too keen for a Deer and no patience).

I've got to say, that in the Hut - it was a strangely pleasant atmosphere - people left thousands of dollars worth of gear unattended in a hut whilst they went off to Hunt in an unlocked hut. Everyone was armed to the teeth (Guns, Knives, bows etc.) but it was incredibly relaxing. it was like a microcosm of 'A well armed society is a polite society'

Anyways, we slept overnight (okayish Mattress, my Sleeping Bag wasn't as warm as I remember and an Inflatable pillow is next on my gear list) - at 6 am we were up, kitted up, waited for light to break over the ridgeline as we hunted out from the Hut back to our Car.

Sadly for me (and lucky for the Deer) the Wind was constantly shifting - now before anyone accuses me of pulling out old Hunter's excuses (which I absolutely am) - we met 4 other groups of Hunters that weekend that all had the same experience - some good stalks, but no safe shots available.

Closest I got was we were traversing out, heard a noise and stopped - made a call, heard a response immediately that sounded about ~200m away - we quietly took up a firing position, I had a live round in the spout (safety still on, but bolt fully closed) - ready for the quarry to appear.

Then we felt the wind on our backs, we waited 10 minutes and called again, we got a reply - but this time it sounded 600m away - we had been rumbled.

I did a couple of stalks into the Bush - but it's thick in that area and without a GPS - I'm not confident going super far off the track. We decided that it's better to have an enjoyable walk in the Bush and get home safe and sound than to get BuckFever and take a stupid risk.

TL;DR - went for a hunt in the Ruahines, didn't get anything, spent overnight in a Hut, met some lovely people, had a good time - got some dirt on the Rifle.... but No Deer.


At least you were giving it a go TDL

[TheDemonLord]

At least you were giving it a go TDL

It's the culmination of 6 years of faff with a number of speedbumps along the way. It's also been one of the reasons for my focus on Fitness - I'll say this - the initial 500 metres into the ranges was basically like stairs with tree roots, and with a full pack and gear - that absolutely sucked.

Once I got up the stair-like section though, the tramping was pretty good going. Shoulders and legs a touch sore today - but nothing a hot bath won't fix.

So far it's 0:1 to the Deer.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Can’t beat time in the bush
Well done
Don’t ever equate hunting with just shooting deer, it’s so much more
You meet a wide variety of people, see things that 95% of New Zealanders never see, hate to sound PC, but it’s the whole holistic experience
Once I kick this bloody cancer, it’s where I’m headed

[TheDemonLord]

Can’t beat time in the bush

Hehehehe.


Well done
Don’t ever equate hunting with just shooting deer, it’s so much more
You meet a wide variety of people, see things that 95% of New Zealanders never see, hate to sound PC, but it’s the whole holistic experience
Once I kick this bloody cancer, it’s where I’m headed

Granted I have but a single experience to refer to - but based on what I experienced - I totally get the holistic comment.

It was also interesting talking with Kiwis of a certain generation - how for them going hunting in the bush was so common as to be ubiquitious - now it's just a fringe hobby.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Hehehehe.



Granted I have but a single experience to refer to - but based on what I experienced - I totally get the holistic comment.

It was also interesting talking with Kiwis of a certain generation - how for them going hunting in the bush was so common as to be ubiquitious - now it's just a fringe hobby.

For me, at least, it’s not the number of deer shot, but the deer, whio, kaka, kea, falcons, etc seen and marvelled at.
It’s the shared experiences with friends, it’s introducing my 2 sons to our backcountry, and seeing them marvel as well.
Our youngest has become a DOC ranger, worked at Fiordland with Takahe, Anchor Island with Kakapo, the Hauraki Gulf islands with allsorts. Now with Akld Council, doing the same stuff.
I’m not sure he would have found that calling, without the hunting experience.

D’oh, yes I didn’t think the bush comment through. :rolleyes:

[pritch]

Another 'good guy with a gun?'

In the US this week there was also a teen shot for ringing the wrong door bell.
A six year old girl and her dad shot for chasing a ball onto the neighbours yard.
A young woman shot and killed for mistakenly pulling into the wrong driveway.
A cheer leader (in her cheerleader kit) shot for confusing cars.

Insanity.

[sugilite]

Good guy with a bun comes under fire....
https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-man-shoots-instacart-delivery-drivers-pulled-wrong-home-report

[300weatherby]

For me, at least, it’s not the number of deer shot, but the deer, whio, kaka, kea, falcons, etc seen and marvelled at.
It’s the shared experiences with friends, it’s introducing my 2 sons to our backcountry, and seeing them marvel as well.
Our youngest has become a DOC ranger, worked at Fiordland with Takahe, Anchor Island with Kakapo, the Hauraki Gulf islands with allsorts. Now with Akld Council, doing the same stuff.
I’m not sure he would have found that calling, without the hunting experience.

D’oh, yes I didn’t think the bush comment through. :rolleyes:

Sitting high on a hillside (you northern mob would call them mountains....) with a brew in hand as the sun comes up, watching a mob below, no phone, no cars, no people, no stress - is a place where you can breathe, slow right down and just be alive. Those that understand, get it, those that do not, it is not possible to explain it to.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Sitting high on a hillside (you northern mob would call them mountains....) with a brew in hand as the sun comes up, watching a mob below, no phone, no cars, no people, no stress - is a place where you can breathe, slow right down and just be alive. Those that understand, get it, those that do not, it is not possible to explain it to.

Exactly
Time spent down your way, Eyre Mountains, Taki’s, Fiordland, are some of the best memories I have.
Interesting calibre, by the way :yes:

[pete376403]

Exactly
Time spent down your way, Eyre Mountains, Taki’s, Fiordland, are some of the best memories I have.
Interesting calibre, by the way :yes:

I've never been hunting, but I have been bush walking / tramping. I've never felt that not carrying the means to kill something has reduced the experience in any way.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

I've never been hunting, but I have been bush walking / tramping. I've never felt that not carrying the means to kill something has reduced the experience in any way.

Agreed, and I’m not suggesting otherwise, or certainly never meant to give that impression
Apologies if you took it that way.
Hunting was just reason I used to go bush
95% of my best hunting trips, I never fired my rifle
Didn’t mean they weren’t special, but you can’t find those moments unless you’re out there, for whatever reason drives you :yes:

[pritch]

I've never been hunting, but I have been bush walking / tramping. I've never felt that not carrying the means to kill something has reduced the experience in any way.

Conversely when you have been used to carrying a rifle it does feel odd being in the bush without one. The feeling does pass though. A big hill will do that.

[husaberg]

Nor does any law changes look eminent to prevent hunting or prevent having a rifle for hunting.
The law changes only prevented people having rifles that were not needed for hunting at all....

[TheDemonLord]

Nor does any law changes look eminent to prevent hunting or prevent having a rifle for hunting.
The law changes only prevented people having rifles that were not needed for hunting at all....

AR Style rifles were extremely popular for Hunting, for the exact same reason that Army Surplus SMLEs were popular for hunting.

And as for preventing hunting:

How's that NZ Wallaby Population doing? (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/02/eats-hops-and-breeds-new-zealands-worsening-wallaby-plague-aoe)

[pete376403]

Conversely when you have been used to carrying a rifle it does feel odd being in the bush without one. The feeling does pass though. A big hill will do that.

Carried a 7.62 SLR in the army. That was enough.

[300weatherby]

Nor does any law changes look eminent to prevent hunting or prevent having a rifle for hunting.
The law changes only prevented people having rifles that were not needed for hunting at all....

Typical urban cluelessness right there. Just like the city living greenies telling us how we should farm. Just clueless.

[300weatherby]

Exactly
Time spent down your way, Eyre Mountains, Taki’s, Fiordland, are some of the best memories I have.
Interesting calibre, by the way :yes:

Carried one for nearly a decade as my primary hunting rifle. Now I'm old and cunning and my .243 is my primary. And I keep four families with full freezers with it.

[husaberg]

Typical urban cluelessness right there. Just like the city living greenies telling us how we should farm. Just clueless.

Yeah i can see why you would say that seeing as i am a famer living in a rural area and all.:tugger:
perhaps you should regale us all how you so desperately needed the banned firearm's to farm or to hunt or you could just talk more crap, the result is the same.

[pritch]

A milestone of sorts. My licence was expiring and the Police were already on my arse for lacking the required number of range attendances. I did have medical leave but their record keeping isn't *that* great. Anyhoo I decided it was all too much bother and have sold all my guns. For the first time in a long time I don't own a firearm.

Ah well, that's that then. Better go for a ride...

[Kickaha]

A milestone of sorts. My licence was expiring and the Police were already on my arse for lacking the required number of range attendances.

Range attendances for a Pistol Licence ?

A few years ago a friends pet peeve was that he has to have the required range attendances each year to retain his pistol licence and that was more than the general police were required to do at the time

[pritch]

Range attendances for a Pistol Licence?

A few years ago a friends pet peeve was that he has to have the required range attendances each year to retain his pistol licence and that was more than the general police were required to do at the time



Yeah. The new Firearms Authority is having teething troubles. They are maintaining that attendances at ranges other than your home range don't count. So attendances at National or Island championships or whatever wouldn't count. Just new broom stuff but they are happily fucking everybody around while they learn.

Received a call from them advising me my licence was expiring, so I explained in detail what I was doing. A week or so later I got another call telling me my licence was expiring so I told him about the previous call. It was recorded, he just hadn't checked. On the day my licence expired I handed it in at the local cop shop. Couple of days later I got a call from the Firearms authority asking where my licence was.

It can all be somebody else's problem now.

[pritch]

The father of Colt Gray, 14, the Apalachee school shooter, has been charged with multiple murder, manslaughter, and cruelty to children offences.

Last year there were threats at the school. These were investigated but the suspect Gray claimed he hadn't done it. Yet last Christmas his father still bought him an AR15. It was illegal for him to own a firearm until he was 18.

Father and son are both in deep do do.

Meanwhile elsewhere in Georgia, Mad Marge Taylor-Greene is giving away a .50 calibre rifle.

[Kickaha]

Meanwhile elsewhere in Georgia, Mad Marge Taylor-Greene is giving away a .50 calibre rifle.

Idela for shooting through 4 walls, a suspect and a fridge


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsyaFCBKWuk

[pritch]

If this guy is right our TV News got it wrong. That should not come as a shock though.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/POubd0SoCQ8

[TheDemonLord]

If this guy is right our TV News got it wrong. That should not come as a shock though.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/POubd0SoCQ8

Its GunJesus (Ian McCollum) - IMO probably the premier YT fact-based Firearms content creator - suffice to say, I trust his analysis. Especially over any Media personality.

(Seriously, even if you don't like Guns - his factual content is just top-tier)

[Berries]

TV news said he had a gun. Saw the video and it looks like a gun. Bloke with funny facial hair says it was a gun.

Am I missing something?

[pritch]

TV news said he had a gun. Saw the video and it looks like a gun. Bloke with funny facial hair says it was a gun.

Am I missing something?

The report I saw named the brand/type that this man said it wasn't. Usually TV1 source clips of US news from ABC, whether it was part of that or their own editorialising I can't recall.

[pete376403]

The report I saw named the brand/type that this man said it wasn't. Usually TV1 source clips of US news from ABC, whether it was part of that or their own editorialising I can't recall.

Nett result was same, regardless of weapon. Seems to have made an enormous number of people happy. May even start a trend - open season on CEOs

[pritch]

Nett result was same, regardless of weapon. Seems to have made an enormous number of people happy. May even start a trend - open season on CEOs

This is the firearms thread. Some hereabout are interested in such details.

The victim was the CEO of the company that declined the highest proportion of claims in the US medical insurance industry. Some 35% IIRC. There are reports of staff laughing and joking about denying claims. If people paid big money to a company that joked about not paying out, a proportion if those people would get upset. Some might even get really really upset. Then too there are also stories about financial shenanigans. Investors who lose big get upset about that too.

Few are shedding a tear.

[R650R]

This is the firearms thread. Some hereabout are interested in such details.

The victim was the CEO of the company that declined the highest proportion of claims in the US medical insurance industry. Some 35% IIRC. There are reports of staff laughing and joking about denying claims. If people paid big money to a company that joked about not paying out, a proportion if those people would get upset. Some might even get really really upset. Then too there are also stories about financial shenanigans. Investors who lose big get upset about that too.

Few are shedding a tear.

Apparently 17% is average and the worst is a lot more than 35… I ditched some coverage I had after reading the fine print, there’s lots of stuff they exclude that you don’t know until you read in depth.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/analysis-health-insurance-claim-denials-are-on-the-rise-to-the-detriment-of-patients

[Piper]

Idela for shooting through 4 walls, a suspect and a fridge


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsyaFCBKWuk
American's and their guns eh!

[pritch]

Another take on the United Healthcare assassination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_swGiAHhbQ

[TheDemonLord]

https://consultations.justice.govt.nz/policy/public-consultation-on-the-arms-act-rewrite/

Here is your option to make a submission.

Obviously I have a very strong bias on what I think should be done.

Here is the link, you can go ahead and say you agree with everything the Government has done and no one should have Guns, you can say you think there just needs to be a few tweaks, you can say that what was done was a travesty... And all manner of options and opinions in-between.

I have my voice, feel free to add yours to it.

[Pursang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_0Zic-s_0

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_0Zic-s_0

I love out-of-context clips.

On a side note - the new director of the ATF, liking the look of his views on 2A.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Submitted :gob:

[sugilite]

The hypocrisy of the right in the usa.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI6MiVOPpOU&list=WL&index=2&t=572s&pp=gAQBiAQB