The firearm thread

[jasonu]

Huge weapons arsenal??? That's a good one. I've got more than that in my gun safe and it is by no means considered huge, excessive or even slightly out of the ordinary.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12168957

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Sensationalism, at its finest.
If 4 firearms is an arsenal.......


To be fair, any standards in journalism are pretty low these days.

[TheDemonLord]

Whats the bet that none of them are capable of Select-fire, switching between Semi-Auto and Full Auto?

And therefore not "Assault Rifles" at all?

[pritch]

uhh. duh. they're made of plastic.

Actually I did read years ago that there is more steel in a Glock than there is in some Saturday night specials. That slide is solid, well the Model 21 certainly is.

[pritch]

Whats the bet that none of them are capable of Select-fire, switching between Semi-Auto and Full Auto?

And therefore not "Assault Rifles" at all?

Well that wouldn't be a very good bet to take because the article clearly says they are semi auto. Not that reporters would know anyway.

[TheDemonLord]

Well that wouldn't be a very good bet to take because the article clearly says they are semi auto. Not that reporters would know anyway.

Exactly - I dunno, I'm getting really irritated by people calling Semi-Autos - 'Assault Rifles'

[husaberg]

Exactly - I dunno, I'm getting really irritated by people calling Semi-Autos - 'Assault Rifles'
Add an L1A1 SLR then?
Does that irritate you more.

[Ginge09]

Without the meth it would just have been a collection of weapons.

With the meth it’s an arsenal.

This is an interesting read....chickens coming home to roost.

http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZHC/2018/3050.html

[pritch]

Add an L1A1 SLR then?
Does that irritate you more.

Ahhh now that's the real thing. In latter day terminology the FN FAL is a "battle rifle", it's not just another poofy assault rifle.

[husaberg]

Ahhh now that's the real thing. In latter day terminology the FN FAL is a "battle rifle", it's not just another poofy assault rifle.
We used to have access to an L4 LMG.
Also strangely 22 chambered Mark 4 Lee Endfeilds
The Brits coveted Argie FN FALs as they were full Auto rather than Rapid.

My Brother has a 1910 401 Winchester semi Auto Carbine. Tht was my dads Amongst his collection of AK's M16s etc
I never got a chance to shoot it as the ammo was unobtainable but now you can mod SKS/AK ammo for them
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Winchester_.401_SL_Model_1910.jpghttp://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/Cast_Bullet/Vault/Win_SL_1910_Action.jpghttps://discourse-cdn-sjc1.com/business6/uploads/cartridgecollectors/optimized/2X/c/c193b6d76022f8613a8ab6b5fb2b3dd05a1d8491_1_690x517 .jpghttp://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y137/RFPJr/401%20WSL/401scompared.jpg
7.62x39 converted to 401

[Swoop]

Huge weapons arsenal??? That's a good one. I've got more than that in my gun safe and it is by no means considered huge, excessive or even slightly out of the ordinary.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12168957

It's an inept load of journalism to begin with, and the judge saying "massive arsenal" is also badly misleading. Three rifles and parts for another? Someone is 'avin a laugh! Surely!

I read the headline and immediately thought of a couple of people I know who have over a thousand firearms in their collections. Not this drug dealer with THREE!:rolleyes:

[jasonu]

It's an inept load of journalism to begin with, and the judge saying "massive arsenal" is also badly misleading. Three rifles and parts for another? Someone is 'avin a laugh! Surely!

I read the headline and immediately thought of a couple of people I know who have over a thousand firearms in their collections. Not this drug dealer with THREE!:rolleyes:

In total I have around 3000 rifle and pistol rounds. It doesn't go as far as some (fake news media) would have you think.

[pritch]

In total I have around 3000 rifle and pistol rounds. It doesn't go as far as some (fake news media) would have you think.

I might normally have something similar, but the phrase "some assembly required" applies to some of them.

[pritch]

This is from the Houston Police who are apparently concerned at the safety aspect. A guy I knew in Virginia said it was illegal where he was too, but the illegality was exceeded by the popularity. At midnight there was all sorts of stuff being fired into the sky.

[jasonu]

You lot better get ready to hand over all your guns to the tooth fairy.

[JimO]

You lot better get ready to hand over all your guns to the tooth fairy.
yep we can expect massive changes to firearms laws

[AllanB]

yep we can expect massive changes to firearms laws


Good.
WTF does anyone in NZ need a automatic multi round gun designed for the forces need for private use?
To make them feel better about their small dick?

[Oakie]

I have a 15 shot semi-auto .22. I don't expect that'll be a problem but you never know. (Oh, I live in Christchurch and my rifle came inside late yesterday afternoon instead of sleeping in it's cabinet.)

[SaferRides]

Now we know why the Aussie came here to massacre Moslems.

[caseye]

Good.
WTF does anyone in NZ need a automatic multi round gun designed for the forces need for private use?
To make them feel better about their small dick?

Just to clarify, no one in NZ outside of our armed services is allowed to own or operate an Automatic weapon. Collectors can have them, but cannot operte them.
Only semi automatic weapons are allowed to be owned by standard firearms owners. They are restricted to magazine capacities of 7 for a centre fire and `15 for a .22 or rimfire calibre rifle.
Again, though a semi automatic rifle that can accomodate a 7 round magazine can of course take a 15/20/30/50 100 round magazine.
Which is why it is an offence for anyone who doesn't have a C or E catagory firearms licence to own a magazine with a capacity greater than 7 for centre fire or 15 for .22 or rimfire.
Our firarms laws are quite robust, while it was once that there was a firearms register, the cost of compliance both for owners and for the Police was way to great to be sustained so it was canned well over 20 years ago.
NZ like Oz is a land of farmers, hunters and shooters of all sorts,while full on Military rifles are not suited to hunting generally, they are good for long range shooting,falling plate and combat range shooting, NZ I believe still holds the Ballinger Belt a trophy put up many years ago for the best open sights 3.0.3 at 1000 yards, shot between NZ and Australia.
Competition is fierce and as with any other sport, the better the equipment the easier competing becomes, so no, for almost every normal, sane rifle/gun owner out there it isn't about dick size, it's about owning and operating the best.
Penalising well over 250,000 licenced law abiding gun owners for the actions of usually non licence holders doing dumb shit with guns doesn't work.
Ask the Poms, Knife crime is now at epidemic proportions over there, the only ones with guns are the very people the laws were changed to prevent having them, the criminals!

There is in my opinion good reason to tighten up on firearms licence holders coming here from overseas, sadly yesterdays events have highlighted this very scenario only too well.
Lets try and keep this whole mess in perspective, like cars, guns don't kill, unless deliberately pointed/steered at someone and the trigger pulled or the throttle stomped on.
Do we ban all of the different types of cars because somoene who can't drive as well as the next guy shoundn't have it. who makes that call?
The Gubbermint? certainly not! in my humble opinion, I'd be surprised if any of the current labour govt have a firarms licence between them, what would they know about guns?

[caseye]

Now we know why the Aussie came here to massacre Moslems.

It would not have made a scrap of difference where this abomination came from, they had a firearms licence, proof of which should have to be verified, before they can purchase or obtain any here in NZ, it appears that didn't/doesn't happen.
I'm not even going to joke about this shooter being an Ozzie, or suggest that the shooter couldn't have been a New Zealander and look they wern't, lucky old us , aye! Really, come on, it's way too serious to simply use it as a throw away line and shug it off.
They could well have been and NZ has allowed their kind to say aloud what they'd do and how and not acted then, we all need to take a good hard look.

[SaferRides]

Probably too soon to be discussing this sorry, I just had a quick look at what was being discussed about our gun control legislation in overseas media.

[Laava]

You lot better get ready to hand over all your guns to the tooth fairy.
Bit of an over reaction there pal. Probably apply mainly to automatic and any military style semiautomatics. Good idea as far as I am concerned, they are useless for anything other than warfare or just spraying bullets.

[jasonu]

Good.
WTF does anyone in NZ need a 200mph motorcycle for private use?
To make them feel better about their small dick?

There you go

[pritch]

Probably too soon to be discussing this sorry,

True. The PM said she was sure that there would be a change to firearms laws, probably before she had any idea what the current laws are.

Despite what some here have said there are legitimate reasons for owning a military semi auto. Farmers in areas with a goat problem use them. They are not shooting for sport they are trying to kill the whole herd before thay escape back into the bush. There are sporting competitions that use them, although those might now be endangered species.

The Australians had a buy back programme. Be interesting to see how the government reacts to the budget estimate for a similar programme here.

Our society has changed and as someone else said, the chardonnay socialists in government probably don't even know anybody who owns a gun. There's a large number of single mums and others who know nothing about guns except what they've seen on TV, and that's all bad. As ranges have been closed and access to areas suitable for shooting have gone so the numbers of participants have dropped.

Still, outside the city limits most houses still have a gun. It's just another farm tool and people who don't have one can piss their neighbours off.

[onearmedbandit]

Still, outside the city limits most houses still have a gun. It's just another farm tool and people who don't have one can piss their neighbours off.

You're having a laugh right?

[husaberg]

True. The PM said she was sure that there would be a change to firearms laws, probably before she had any idea what the current laws are.

Despite what some here have said there are legitimate reasons for owning a military semi auto. Farmers in areas with a goat problem use them. They are not shooting for sport they are trying to kill the whole herd before thay escape back into the bush. There are sporting competitions that use them, although those might now be endangered species.
f.

Goats are not that great a problem that they warrant not changing the laws.
Rabbits though i almost see a need for semi auto 22 short though. nothing above that calibre though.
Collectors can see have their other assault style large calibre firearms they just need to be made inoperable. We had huge numbers of cheap firearms dumped on us with the Chinese imports and the collaspe of the soviet union.
We coped without them prior just fine.

[jasonu]

Goat are not that great a problem that they warrent not changing the laws.
Rabbits though i see a need for semi auto 22 short though. nothing above that calibre though.

22 short? You may as well chuck a pebble.... .17hmr is the varmint hunters weapon of choice here.

[husaberg]

22 short? You may as well chuck a pebble.... .17hmr is the varmint hunters weapon of choice here.
its Wabbits Jason you can practically pick them up with your hands, no need for Extreme velocity rounds
Few rabbits were harmed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9w3pOThGn4

[jellywrestler]

yep we can expect massive changes to firearms laws

why, do they limit petrol sales to 100ml as there are arsonists can get hold of it?
what about cell phones, they must contribute to a fair few deaths on the road each year but they don't bother with policing that shit....

[husaberg]

why, do they limit petrol sales to 100ml as there are arsonists can get hold of it?
what about cell phones, they must contribute to a fair few deaths on the road each year but they don't bother with policing that shit....

Firearms imports number many thousands each year. But we don’t actually know how many guns there are in New Zealand. Estimates range from 1.2 million to two or three million.

We only have 50,000 farms, about 7,000 people in the military 9000 in the police force.
Police said they believe there are around 1.5 million guns in New Zealand. There are around 230,000 licensed firearms owners.
Thats 15 Guns each? Sounds a little excessive?
According to Doc there are only 50000 active hunters in NZ.

[AllanB]

why, do they limit petrol sales to 100ml as there are arsonists can get hold of it?
what about cell phones, they must contribute to a fair few deaths on the road each year but they don't bother with policing that shit....


Sorry Jelly but your comparisons are very poor, although I understand the point you are making. Petrol is used by just about every person (or they travel in something using petrol), ditto cell phones.

Guns are not in a comparable number of homes or hands. And guns of the nature used to slay 50 plus persons really have no relevance in New Zealand other than the military or police.

[jafagsx250]

You lot better get ready to hand over all your guns to the tooth fairy.

The better pay for them then.


Good.
WTF does anyone in NZ need a automatic multi round gun designed for the forces need for private use?
To make them feel better about their small dick?

They are semi automatic. Only the military is allowed operating full auto.

There's sports and hunting uses.


True. The PM said she was sure that there would be a change to firearms laws, probably before she had any idea what the current laws are.

Despite what some here have said there are legitimate reasons for owning a military semi auto. Farmers in areas with a goat problem use them. They are not shooting for sport they are trying to kill the whole herd before thay escape back into the bush. There are sporting competitions that use them, although those might now be endangered species.

The Australians had a buy back programme. Be interesting to see how the government reacts to the budget estimate for a similar programme here.

Our society has changed and as someone else said, the chardonnay socialists in government probably don't even know anybody who owns a gun. There's a large number of single mums and others who know nothing about guns except what they've seen on TV, and that's all bad. As ranges have been closed and access to areas suitable for shooting have gone so the numbers of participants have dropped.

Still, outside the city limits most houses still have a gun. It's just another farm tool and people who don't have one can piss their neighbours off.

The buy back cosy hundreds of millions. We have more semis and more valuable ones. People are spitting the dummy about taxes. Do you think they will be happy to pay for them?


Sorry Jelly but your comparisons are very poor, although I understand the point you are making. Petrol is used by just about every person (or they travel in something using petrol), ditto cell phones.

Guns are not in a comparable number of homes or hands. And guns of the nature used to slay 50 plus persons really have no relevance in New Zealand other than the military or police.

Why are you so quick to give up freedoms and let the police have a monopoly on the things you want to ban. After all they are just people like you and me.

[husaberg]

T


The buy back cost hundreds of millions. We have more semis and more valuable ones. People are spitting the dummy about taxes. Do you think they will be happy to pay for them?

.

The gun licences are already highly subsidised by the tax payer. Expect that to change.
5.5 Million Dollars a year already.


Firearms owners comprise about 5 to 6 percent of the population. Their activities are subsidised by the taxpayer. For example, while each licensed firearms owner must pay $126.50 once every 10 years for a standard A Category licence (to own rifles, shotguns etc.) the actual cost to NZ Police of administering the entire licensing system is over $11 million per year. More than half of this is paid by the taxpayer. The cost to Police of administering firearms imports is entirely absorbed by the police budget - no fee is charged for administering applications to import firearms, restricted weapons or firearms parts.
‘Because taxpayers are subsidising firearms owners, it’s time for taxpayers to have more of a say in firearms policy and law’, according to Russell. "Current systems are not working and we are thinking about the 50 or so gun suicides that occur each year, as well as the people shot this week in Christchurch."
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/03/17/491874/time-for-the-gun-lobby-to-stand-aside

[jafagsx250]

The gun licences are already highly subsidised by the tax payer. Expect that to change.
5.5 Million Dollars a year already.I know. It's one of the ways they'll be using to try and reduce the numbers. If people can't afford to be legal then don't be surprised if there are grey guns. You need to encourage compliance with the law.

[husaberg]

I know. It's one of the ways they'll be using to try and reduce the numbers. If people can't afford to be legal then don't be surprised if there are grey guns. You need to encourage compliance with the law.

Yes but if you make sure the penalties for the grey gun receiving and selling is strong enough this shouldn't become an issue, No one wants to spend 10 years in prison for the sake of a few dollars.
Also if you know where the guns are, You end up with a better system then we have now. Plus it has to be user pays.
There will always be criminals. but in NZ they actually tend to use cheap weapons such as 22's or shotguns according to the stats.


three years and four months was not enough for illegally supplying the weapon used in a murder.
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/man-jailed-providing-rifle-used-kill-woman.

[pritch]

I have stayed away from the news, too many people talking about things they know nothing about.

Last night I saw a discussion among journalists on social media. The topic was panic buying of semi automatics. There was no doubt in their mind that this was happening once the suggestion was made. Never mind that you need a special endorsement to buy a military style semi automatic. The endorsement requires interviews with about five different people, and the chances of getting the endorsement between the PMs announcement suggesting a law change Friday and last night was absolutely zero. Exactly where all those guns were being purchased on a Sunday wasn't made clear either.

Sure something like that was alleged to have happened in Florida after the nightclub shooting there, but NZ is not Florida.

Oh, and on the buy back option. Following the buy back exercise in Australia somebody bought some surplus computers from the police. The drives had not been properly cleared and it was apparent that there were instances of multiple surrenders of the same firearm. Say I take my old shitter in to the station and Constable Bob gives me the money. I then go to the back door, he gives me the gun back and I give him half the money. We arrange to meet next Friday. Nice little earner. Then again NZ isn't Oz either.

[husaberg]

I have stayed away from the news, too many people talking about things they know nothing about.

Last night I saw a discussion among journalists on social media. The topic was panic buying of semi automatics. There was no doubt in their mind that this was happening once the suggestion was made. Never mind that you need a special endorsement to buy a military style semi automatic. The endorsement requires interviews with about five different people, and the chances of getting the endorsement between the PMs announcement suggesting a law change Friday and last night was absolutely zero. Exactly where all those guns were being purchased on a Sunday wasn't made clear either.

Sure something like that was alleged to have happened in Florida after the nightclub shooting there, but NZ is not Florida.

Oh, and on the buy back option. Following the buy back exercise in Australia somebody bought some surplus computers from the police. The drives had not been properly cleared and it was apparent that there were instances of multiple surrenders of the same firearm. Say I take my old shitter in to the station and Constable Bob gives me the money. I then go to the back door, he gives me the gun back and I give him half the money. We arrange to meet next Friday. Nice little earner. Then again NZ isn't Oz either.

4 of the 5 The guns obtained were "as sold" not military style category. likely all of them were not, 4 were purchased recently from Gun city.
From what i can find he had either 1 or 2 military style assault rifles, 2 shotguns and a bolt action rifle.
Earlier the PM had said some all were brought legally, and some were modified post purchase.


"I've informed the police that Gun City sold the alleged gunman four category A firearms and ammunition," Tipple said. "All Gun City sales to this individual followed a police verified online mail order process.
Ar15's can be sold as non military style A cat provided certain conditions are met.



Central to the dispute was the classification of the AR15 semi-automatic rifle – one of the weapons used in Friday's terror attack.
The lightweight rifle is available for purchase with a standard rifle licence provided it has a magazine capacity no greater than seven bullets, and no free-standing pistol grip.

The killer obtained it seems larger mags likely online he could also probably get the other parts needed to convert it back to military style.

Only last year the police challenged this and was threatened by legal action form the Gun owners lawyer


Last year, he vowed to take court action against police after a denied import application for semi-automatic rifles and parts.
Central to the dispute was the classification of the AR15 semi-automatic rifle – one of the weapons used in Friday's terror attack.
The lightweight rifle is available for purchase with a standard rifle licence provided it has a magazine capacity no greater than seven bullets, and no free-standing pistol grip.
An AR15 with a free-standing pistol grip, or a larger magazine, is deemed a military style semi-automatic rifle (MSSA) and requires the more rigorously inspected "E-Cat" firearm licence.
Tipple's lawyer, Nicholas Taylor, said police refused the importation of AR15 rifles able to be purchased with a standard licence, arguing the rifles were "born as MSSAs".

If he wasnt able to have large mags its highly unlikely he would have been able to cause the same amount of carnage so quickly.

[jasonu]

I have stayed away from the news, too many people talking about things they know nothing about.
.

haha oh the irony.

PS would Husa or anyone else please quote this so the silly old know it all cunt can see it...

[jasonu]

he could also probably get the other parts needed to convert it back to military style.



From what style????

[sidecar bob]

From what style????

That other kind of pointless thing that guns do?

[husaberg]

From what style????
Civilian style and small mag long barrel.
this is what they look like they mod the receiver to get around the rules re pistol grip.
They have been removed from the site i see.
I think there was another version without the pistol grip altogether looked like a M14
341321
I never even knrew the not quite a pistol grip was legal judging by GUn city taking them off the site maybe they are having second thoughts themselves
Ps Pritch Jason says hi.........

[Swoop]

A disgusting and vile act by one Aussie. Unbelievably traumatic to all the victims and their families, and our deepest sympathies to everyone affected.

It is interesting that this scum was mobile in his car (possibly to another location??) when the plod captured him. I doubt he intended to be caught alive, so well done those two cops!


You lot better get ready to hand over all your guns to the tooth fairy.
That approach will cost billions of taxpayer dollars, but that will not stop these politicians.
Edit: Certainly well into the millions. "Billions" results from the cost of a registry system (re: Canada's failure).


I'd be surprised if any of the current labour govt have a firarms licence between them, what would they know about guns?
Coupled with the greens, who a vehement haters of any type of firearm...


True. The PM said she was sure that there would be a change to firearms laws, probably before she had any idea what the current laws are.
It was interesting to see her stating "A ban on semi auto's" immediately. No consultation. No judicial process. Nothing, just her personal view will be mandatory.
A sad day for legal process too.

[sidecar bob]

It was interesting to see her stating "A ban on semi auto's" immediately. No consultation. No judicial process. Nothing, just her personal view will be mandatory.
A sad day for legal process too.

It's basically a Dictatorship. Don't forget that come next election:msn-wink:

[jellywrestler]

Sorry Jelly but your comparisons are very poor, although I understand the point you are making. Petrol is used by just about every person (or they travel in something using petrol), ditto cell phones.

Guns are not in a comparable number of homes or hands. And guns of the nature used to slay 50 plus persons really have no relevance in New Zealand other than the military or police.

nor have cars over 1200cc without towbars, they kill people too, way more than 50 along the years.

[onearmedbandit]

That approach will cost billions of taxpayer dollars, but that will not stop these politicians.


.

Do you mean the cost of buy back?

[husaberg]

A disgusting and vile act by one Aussie. Unbelievably traumatic to all the victims and their families, and our deepest sympathies to everyone affected.

It is interesting that this scum was mobile in his car (possibly to another location??) when the plod captured him. I doubt he intended to be caught alive, so well done those two cops!

That approach will cost billions of taxpayer dollars, but that will not stop these politicians.

It was interesting to see her stating "A ban on semi auto's" immediately. No consultation. No judicial process. Nothing, just her personal view will be mandatory.
A sad day for legal process too.


It's basically a Dictatorship. Don't forget that come next election:msn-wink:

You do realise the national party is backing the changes and they also ignored nearly all the recommended changes their own select committee put forward only a few years ago?

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/384953/christchurch-terror-attacks-national-party-leader-simon-bridges-says-gun-control-laws-need-changing

The Select Committee’s terms of reference were to focus on how widespread firearms possession is amongst criminals – including gangs, how those people who don’t have a firearms licence come into possession of firearms and what changes, if any, would restrict the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs and people who don’t hold a licence.
“The committee made 20 recommendations. After careful consideration I’ve accepted seven, rejected 12, and recommended one proceed with changes,” Mrs Bennett says.



Bennett rejected most recommendations from the select committee's near year-long inquiry. Five of the committee's nine members are National MPs, and it is chaired by National MP Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi.
The committee inquiry had caused concern among some gun owners and widespread changes would have been a controversial issue in election year.
Rejected recommendations include requiring police to record serial numbers of all firearms upon renewal of licence or inspection, requiring a licence to possess ammunition, and making dealers keep records of ammunition sales.
Bennett also declined to act on the recommendation to investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic rifle and shotgun.
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-response-firearms-select-committee-report
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11876027

Its also hard to imagine its a dictatorship when we hold elections and the parties with the most seats decide what happens
Also i note Gerry Brownless has asked for the sale of semi autos to be stopped immediately.
Not only that. It took Australia 12 days to outlaw semi-automatic rifles and shotguns post the 1996 Port Arthur massacre, Where 35 people were slaughtered

[FJRider]

It's basically a Dictatorship. Don't forget that come next election:msn-wink:

Considering the last election result prior to Government being formed ... be careful how you vote. Even then it may still be a lottery in seeing who gets in.

Dictatorship or vote hunting ... <_<

[jellywrestler]

It took Australia 12 days to outlaw semi-automatic rifles and shotguns post the 1996 Port Arthur massacre, Where 35 people were slaughtered so why did we have to wait until this happened and not follow aussie back then?
how many other kneejerk reactions are we going to get?
take that big billboard. seemed ok that it sat there for all that time with none of the three people including delicate kids having any sort of ear protection....

[Laava]

Surprising how many people on here have claimed to currently own pistols?

[husaberg]

so why did we have to wait until this happened and not follow aussie back then?
..

Maybe it takes innocent people getting killed on that scale before shit gets real for politicians

[jafagsx250]

Yes but if you make sure the penalties for the grey gun receiving and selling is strong enough this shouldn't become an issue, No one wants to spend 10 years in prison for the sake of a few dollars.
Also if you know where the guns are, You end up with a better system then we have now. Plus it has to be user pays.
There will always be criminals. but in NZ they actually tend to use cheap weapons such as 22's or shotguns according to the stats.


three years and four months was not enough for illegally supplying the weapon used in a murder.
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/man-jailed-providing-rifle-used-kill-woman.

That won't stop it if you don't pay what they're worth.

Registration would have never have stopped this. That's delusional.


I have stayed away from the news, too many people talking about things they know nothing about.

Last night I saw a discussion among journalists on social media. The topic was panic buying of semi automatics. There was no doubt in their mind that this was happening once the suggestion was made. Never mind that you need a special endorsement to buy a military style semi automatic. The endorsement requires interviews with about five different people, and the chances of getting the endorsement between the PMs announcement suggesting a law change Friday and last night was absolutely zero. Exactly where all those guns were being purchased on a Sunday wasn't made clear either.

Sure something like that was alleged to have happened in Florida after the nightclub shooting there, but NZ is not Florida.

Oh, and on the buy back option. Following the buy back exercise in Australia somebody bought some surplus computers from the police. The drives had not been properly cleared and it was apparent that there were instances of multiple surrenders of the same firearm. Say I take my old shitter in to the station and Constable Bob gives me the money. I then go to the back door, he gives me the gun back and I give him half the money. We arrange to meet next Friday. Nice little earner. Then again NZ isn't Oz either.

There are standard license semi automatics. Which is what's being bought.

Things like that will happen here. In Canada people registered hot glue guns.


A disgusting and vile act by one Aussie. Unbelievably traumatic to all the victims and their families, and our deepest sympathies to everyone affected.

It is interesting that this scum was mobile in his car (possibly to another location??) when the plod captured him. I doubt he intended to be caught alive, so well done those two cops!


That approach will cost billions of taxpayer dollars, but that will not stop these politicians.


Coupled with the greens, who a vehement haters of any type of firearm...


It was interesting to see her stating "A ban on semi auto's" immediately. No consultation. No judicial process. Nothing, just her personal view will be mandatory.
A sad day for legal process too.


All that coupled with lying biased media and a rush though with urgency mentality is seriously bad for the country.



Do you mean the cost of buy back?

Yes. If the government and by extension you. Are not willing to pay fair value then compliance will be low.


so why did we have to wait until this happened and not follow aussie back then?
how many other kneejerk reactions are we going to get?
take that big billboard. seemed ok that it sat there for all that time with none of the three people including delicate kids having any sort of ear protection....

Because the aussie have had plenty of mass shootings after port Arthur. Rampant gun crime. Their system is a failure.

[husaberg]

That won't stop it if you don't pay what they're worth.

Registration would have never have stopped this. That's delusional.



delusional is you answering to points i never made.
That example i used, i knew her we went to school together. Her 3 kids are going to grow up without a mother she was killed in front of them.
I am sure they would be real sympathetic to inconveniencing you over this issue.
Tell you what, pm me your address and i will send around her mum to explain to you what its like to lose a daughter to a murdering prick that had not only already raped her. Also one that had killed another person previously.

[jafagsx250]

delusional is you answering to points i never made.
That example i used, i knew her we went to school together. Her 3 kids are going to grow up without a mother she was killed in front of them.
I am sure they would be real sympathetic to inconveniencing you over this issue.
Tell you what, pm me your address and i will send around her mum to explain to you what its like to loose a daughter to a murdering prick that had not only already raped her. Also one that had killed another person previously.

Nope. You mentioned that then we'd know where the guns are. Which is registration.

That's a tragedy.

If I were confident you would not abuse the knowledge then I would.

[jasonu]

Surprising how many people on here have claimed to currently own pistols?

Why is that surprising?

[husaberg]

Nope. You mentioned that then we'd know where the guns are. Which is registration.

That's a tragedy.

If I were confident you would not abuse the knowledge then I would.

That won't stop it if you don't pay what they're worth.
Registration would have never have stopped this. That's delusional.


Really, it will no problem for you to point out where i said anything about buy back then, also . in the post you quoted.
Knowing where the guns are is not regisration it can be tracking with transponders it can be the police checking gun cabnets every year or randomly for security.

I know. It's one of the ways they'll be using to try and reduce the numbers. If people can't afford to be legal then don't be surprised if there are grey guns. You need to encourage compliance with the law.


Yes but if you make sure the penalties for the grey gun receiving and selling is strong enough this shouldn't become an issue, No one wants to spend 10 years in prison for the sake of a few dollars.
Also if you know where the guns are, You end up with a better system then we have now. Plus it has to be user pays.
There will always be criminals. but in NZ they actually tend to use cheap weapons such as 22's or shotguns according to the stats.
three years and four months was not enough for illegally supplying the weapon used in a murder.
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/man-jailed-providing-rifle-used-kill-woman.

Or are you confusing me with the select committee National formed which strongly recommended registration or the Police association that also strongly recommended this and were both ignored.
How would anyone abuse the knowledge of registered firearms do they abuse the car registrations. or if you are mening your address
Shit really, i am expected to trust you with a military high velocity semi auto and you dont even want to trust me to know where you live? seems a bit one sided:2thumbsup
The Government trusts me as a fit and proper person why cant you?
Do you deem guns to be a lower risk than Cattle as they have to be registered and their movements tracked this is a user pays scheme?

So how come you get to decide about the firearm rules anyway?
Do you know more than the firearm select committees or the police association?
You cant even reply to my posts in full. Or so a bit of courage to talk to the victims of firearms attack.
As for the funding, Under the NRA's right wing rules its a user pays world, it seems the tax payers have been funding the gun licences here though, so expect that to stop.

[jafagsx250]

Really, it will no problem for you to point out where i did in the post you replied to then.


Or are you confusing me with the select committee National formed which strongly recomended this or the Police assosociated that also strongly recomended this and were both ignored.
How would anyone abuse the knowledge of registered firearms do they abuse the car registrations

The police association lies constantly.

Police sell the data to criminals https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190318/a54ce0878f109740d5976a01c630fe7b.jpg

[pete376403]

[QUOTE=jafagsx250;1131128081
Because the aussie have had plenty of mass shootings after port Arthur. Rampant gun crime. Their system is a failure.[/QUOTE]

Really? the Wast Australian murder suicide (7 deaths) was the first mass shooting since port Arthur. Still plenty of crime involving guns, however
This (dated 2016)
1. Australia hasn't had a single mass shooting since the gun buyback.

The analysis, by Simon Chapman at the University of Sydney and colleagues, found that there were 13 mass shootings in the 17 years prior to the passage of the National Firearms Agreement. Since then, there hasn't been a single one.

Chapman and his colleagues define mass shooting as five or more victims shot and killed, not including the shooter. In the United States, there have been 11 mass shootings meeting that definition this year alone, and 33 since 2014.

Chapman, it's important to note, was active in the push for gun control in Australia following the 1996 massacre, and has written a book about the experience. Still, his paper is very cautiously worded -- at no point does he claim that the gun ban caused any of the observed changes.

[husaberg]

The police association lies constantly.

Police sell the data to criminals

Really the NZ police sell data?
What about the military them too?
What about answering my posts?

[Laava]

Why is that surprising?
Because it is 8.65 percent, which seems too high. I dont know anyone who owns pistols legitemately, plus they are useless for anything other than boring old target shooting and killing things at very close range.

[jellywrestler]

Maybe it takes innocent people getting killed on that scale before shit gets real for politicians

like driving with cell phones?

[pritch]

I dont know anyone who owns pistols legitemately, plus they are useless for anything other than boring old target shooting and killing things at very close range.

Target shooting isn't boring if you are doing it right. Pistols used to be for close range only but silhouette shooting has changed that. There are now pistols that can knock over sizeable steel plates at 300 yds or hit an aspirin at 100.

[sidecar bob]

The police association lies constantly.

Police sell the data to criminals]

Can you please explain?

[husaberg]

Because it is 8.65 percent, which seems too high. I dont know anyone who owns pistols legitemately, plus they are useless for anything other than boring old target shooting and killing things at very close range.
I know plenty, we have a very strong black powder and target scene over here.
We have those bloody cowboy lot as well buggered if i know what they use though, Air or what but they have target stuff as well as the rest of the stuff i show no interest in.


like driving with cell phones?
No, like killing 50 people in a few minutes.

I was watching that louise nicholas movie last night, sometimes things reach a tipping point.
If nothing changes in regards to what the rules are or what content is allowed on the net and how its monitored those 50 will have died for no reason.

on the driving subject watch this movie.
All the staff have to watch it next safety meeting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxE5J5lrx6Y&feature=youtu.be

[Laava]

Target shooting isn't boring if you are doing it right. Pistols used to be for close range only but silhouette shooting has changed that. There are now pistols that can knock over sizeable steel plates at 300 yds or hit an aspirin at 100.
I did business house pistol shooting a few years ago at the pistol range in whangarei. I wasn't bad at it, have a medal, but as the club president said, it is hard to attract new members. Most of the diehard teams were like darts players, fat beer swilling rednecks. It wasn't interesting enough for anyone in our team to want to continue the following year. In comparison, I have been possum shooting for many many years and that is way more fun. As is the odd deer shoot.

[husaberg]

I did business house pistol shooting a few years ago at the pistol range in whangarei. I wasn't bad at it, have a medal, but as the club president said, it is hard to attract new members. Most of the diehard teams were like darts players, fat beer swilling rednecks. It wasn't interesting enough for anyone in our team to want to continue the following year. In comparison, I have been possum shooting for many many years and that is way more fun. As is the odd deer shoot.

Its always intrigued me the safety nazis let drunk people have sharp objects in confined spaces.
I remember going on a club shoot here pretty much the same but all old men that looked like they belonged at bowls though.
the rednecks i found were the the ones more likely clay shooting.

[sidecar bob]

I did business house pistol shooting a few years ago at the pistol range in whangarei. I wasn't bad at it, have a medal, but as the club president said, it is hard to attract new members. Most of the diehard teams were like darts players, fat beer swilling rednecks. It wasn't interesting enough for anyone in our team to want to continue the following year. In comparison, I have been possum shooting for many many years and that is way more fun. As is the odd deer shoot.

Guns, They go bang & something far away either moves a bit, gets a hole in it or dies.
It really sounds like a pursuit of the feeble minded with few consequences for the user, unless of course their dumbass mate mistakes them for a deer as often happens.

[husaberg]

Guns, They go bang & something far away either moves a bit, gets a hole in it or dies.
It really sounds like a pursuit of the feeble minded with few consequences for the user, unless of course their dumbass mate mistakes them for a deer as often happens.

Its always their mate hardly never someone from another hunting party that they never knew was there.
You hae to wonder what part of the deer looks like a human seeing they are always said to aim for a spot for a quick and pain free kill.
Although there was that one imbecile that shot the women who was brushing her teeth at a campground when they were spotlighting.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/4607426/Hunter-sentenced-over-death

[sidecar bob]

Although there was that one imbecile that shot the women who was brushing her teeth at a campground when they were spotlighting.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/4607426/Hunter-sentenced-over-death

Well I'll stop looking for further proof right now that you don't need to be very smart to get a gun licence.

[jafagsx250]

Really? the Wast Australian murder suicide (7 deaths) was the first mass shooting since port Arthur. Still plenty of crime involving guns, however
This (dated 2016)
1. Australia hasn't had a single mass shooting since the gun buyback.

The analysis, by Simon Chapman at the University of Sydney and colleagues, found that there were 13 mass shootings in the 17 years prior to the passage of the National Firearms Agreement. Since then, there hasn't been a single one.

Chapman and his colleagues define mass shooting as five or more victims shot and killed, not including the shooter. In the United States, there have been 11 mass shootings meeting that definition this year alone, and 33 since 2014.

Chapman, it's important to note, was active in the push for gun control in Australia following the 1996 massacre, and has written a book about the experience. Still, his paper is very cautiously worded -- at no point does he claim that the gun ban caused any of the observed changes.

Depends on the definition of a mass shooting. If its more than 4 people then there's plenty. See attached photo.


Really the NZ police sell data?
What about the military them too?
What about answering my posts?

Yup. Happens in Australia.

Military equipment gets stolen.

I have.


Can you please explain?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/cahill-and-the-police-union-caught-in-another-lie/amp/https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190319/a6d5021709ab0a6a242b321ac2faf704.jpg

[pritch]

Well I'll stop looking for further proof right now that you don't need to be very smart to get a gun licence.

Some locals helicoptered into a remote hut thereby hoping to overfly any imbecile element. While in the vicinity of the hut some young blokes walked up. My locals asked if the newcomers had seen any deer. "No, we only had some sound shots," came the answer.

So much for the bit about identifying your target.

Many shooters are in the various engineering trades, most I have met have their smarts. Most clubs that have alcohol don't open a bottle until the range is closed, but I haven't seen a beer at my local club in decades. There is the drive home after all.

[husaberg]

Yup. Happens in Australia.

Military equipment gets stolen.

I have.



You have yet to produce any supporting evidence, Or figured out NZ is not Australia or will ever be Australia.

Anything can be stolen, So what? The killer brought his weapons. In case you never noticed.
Nothing will entirely eliminate any risk, but doing nothing and expecting different results is only the wet dream of an imbecile.

No you haven't.

As for what you posted the biggest killing with a gun is what 5? where a father shot his family and himself.
None are anything like port arthur
It hardly supports your theory.

[sidecar bob]

Depends on the definition of a mass shooting. If its more than 4 people then there's plenty. See attached photo.



Yup. Happens in Australia.

Military equipment gets stolen.

I have.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/cahill-and-the-police-union-caught-in-another-lie/amp/https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190319/a6d5021709ab0a6a242b321ac2faf704.jpg
I think one needs to investigate the parameters that mass shooting describe. It is 5 deceased not including the gunman.
And you can remove the non gun related killings at the bottom for effect.
How do you think these shootings would have panned out if the shooters had a couple of 50 round magazines?
Port Aurthur toll was 35.
Nothing to see here, move on.

[jafagsx250]

You have yet to produce any supporting evidence, Or figured out NZ is not Australia or will ever be Australia.

Anything can be stolen, So what? The killer brought his weapons. In case you never noticed.
Nothing will entirely eliminate any risk, but doing nothing and expecting different results is only the wet dream of an imbecile.

No you haven't.

As for what you posted the biggest killing with a gun is what 5? where a father shot his family and himself.
None are anything like port arthur
It hardly supports your theory.

Evidence of what? We have had less gun crime than australia for years.

The police gave him a license. Its hardly my fault. More their fault and the gun man's.

I think you're naive if you don't think that the horse has bolted. We're not even closing the gate.

So strangers lives are a bit more valuable than family?


I think one needs to investigate the parameters that mass shooting describe. It is 5 deceased not including the gunman.
And you can remove the non gun related killings at the bottom for effect.
How do you think these shootings would have panned out if the shooters had a couple of 50 round magazines?
Port Aurthur toll was 35.
Nothing to see here, move on.

Who's definition of a mass shooting is that? The one I quoted of 4 people is the fbi's.

You know he could have had higher capacity mags. The end result is the same. Rights taken away by emotional public.

[sidecar bob]

Who's definition of a mass shooting is that? The one I quoted of 4 people is the fbi's.

You know he could have had higher capacity mags. The end result is the same. Rights taken away by emotional public.

The legal definition, you should probably just turn on the news & you would know that.
You better get used to your "rights" being taken away & replaced by other people's right to go about their own business without being shot up, or is your right more important? because it's going to happen, wether you get emotional about it or not.
You're still going to be allowed your idiotic gun unfortunately, just within a few probably still too loose rules. Get over yourself.

[jafagsx250]

The legal definition, you should probably just turn on the news & you would know that.
You better get used to your "rights" being taken away & replaced by other people's right to go about their own business without being shot up, or is your right more important? because it's going to happen, wether you get emotional about it or not.
You're still going to be allowed your idiotic gun unfortunately, just within a few probably still too loose rules. Get over yourself.

I'd rather trust the American definition. They have much more experience with them than us.

So a one off event after nearly 30 years ma's shooting free means 250 000 people have to have private property stolen?

Well it's painfully obvious that you know nothing about guns. People like you shouldn't be making decisions about gun laws. Pity they are though.

[sidecar bob]

I'd rather trust the American definition. They have much more experience with them than us.

So a one off event after nearly 30 years ma's shooting free means 250 000 people have to have private property stolen?

Well it's painfully obvious that you know nothing about guns. People like you shouldn't be making decisions about gun laws. Pity they are though.
Why do you suppose the Americans have more expierence on the topic.
And what's the bit I know nothing about?
I know their purpose is to kill stuff, can they do other stuff like cut grass & do washing?
As Jim Jeffries said, the only argument for not banning gun ownership is "fuck off, I like guns"
Go on, click on the link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0
Let it flick over to part two at the end.
And they're not going to steal your private property, they proposing a buyback using the tax I pay & im cool with that kind of use of taxpayer money.

[husaberg]

Evidence of what? We have had less gun crime than australia for years.
We have always had less gun crime, the point is due to changes in Aussie law, theirs has decreased in both scale and magnatude faster than ours have.

The police gave him a license. Its hardly my fault. More their fault and the gun man's.
Only you claimed he could have got it ilegally. its not your fault its your attitudes fault. All i are hearing form you is me me me, this wont work, that wont work, that will cost too much, the police are corrupt.
Yet you never produce a shred of evidence that backs your position.

I think you're naive if you don't think that the horse has bolted. We're not even closing the gate.
Odd then, You refuse to consider closing the gate, As above.

so strangers lives are a bit more valuable than family?
Thats pretty funy, considering the whole point of this attack was that the killer considered the lives of the victims to be lower than the common Caucasian. No actual life is worth more than any other.


Who's definition of a mass shooting is that? The one I quoted of 4 people is the fbi's.
a lot of what you qouted had nothing to do with guns, also none were on the large scale that occurs when nutters meet multiple large capasity firearms

You know he could have had higher capacity mags. The end result is the same. Rights taken away by emotional public.
Incorrect the time taken would be far higher the chances of him being overcame while he reloaded are also far higher, thats why he used large mags.

[pritch]

The police gave him a license. Its hardly my fault. More their fault and the gun man's.


Which police gave him the licence? I've seen it reported that he was using his Australian licence.

Subsequently it has been suggested that overseas licences not be recognised in NZ, but that's not practical, we sometimes host international competitions. Then there is the guided hunter/tourist business. Perhaps a New Zealand licence should be required for purchases here, that would make sense.

To really understand it though, we need accurate information which is currently in short supply.

The PM is on to it with her point about not metioning his name. For some time now I have been trying to avoid learning the name of mass murderers, sometimes there's just too much publicity. If the press take the PM's point though it could work here. The pixelated court photo was a good move, shame thay didn't pixelate the white power sign too.

[jafagsx250]

Which police gave him the licence? I've seen it reported that he was using his Australian licence.

Subsequently it has been suggested that overseas licences not be recognised in NZ, but that's not practical, we sometimes host international competitions. Then there is the guided hunter/tourist business. Perhaps a New Zealand licence should be required for purchases here, that would make sense.

To really understand it though, we need accurate information which is currently in short supply.

The PM is on to it with her point about not metioning his name. For some time now I have been trying to avoid learning the name of mass murderers, sometimes there's just too much publicity. If the press take the PM's point though it could work here. The pixelated court photo was a good move, shame thay didn't pixelate the white power sign too.

Nz police. As far as I know he didn't have an Australian license. If he did he could have gotten an nz one by showing his aussie one. They automatically give you a license eif you have proof that you can legally use a gun in your home country.

Yoid need to make an allowance for ammunition if you restrict gun sales ot locals.

Then why are we getting gun control in 10 days?! We need an inquiry.

[Grumph]

Nz police. As far as I know he didn't have an Australian license. If he did he could have gotten an nz one by showing his aussie one. They automatically give you a license eif you have proof that you can legally use a gun in your home country.

Yoid need to make an allowance for ammunition if you restrict gun sales ot locals.

Then why are we getting gun control in 10 days?! We need an inquiry.

We've had three in recent years. The information is there. Time to act on it. Get used to it.
Gun ownership in NZ is a privilege - there's no enshrined right to ownership anywhere in NZ law.

[Swoop]

Do you mean the cost of buy back?

Yes, but it will be well into the millions though. I was also thinking about the cost of a firearms registry regarding the billions.
I note that labour state there are "15,000" semi-auto's...

Very wrong on that one.

[jafagsx250]

We've had three in recent years. The information is there. Time to act on it. Get used to it.
Gun ownership in NZ is a privilege - there's no enshrined right to ownership anywhere in NZ law.

Nope. Those only targeted law abiding people. Nothing in those rules would have stopped it.


Yes, but it will be well into the millions though. I was also thinking about the cost of a firearms registry regarding the billions
I note that labour state there are "15,000" semi-auto's...

Very wrong on that one.

Try 1 to 4 billion dollars. You have to pay market price for them otherwise compliance will be low. And it won't reduce the amount of guns in the market. Cos people will just buy more with the new money.

Only 15000 E category rifles. Which are the ones with a 30 round mag but are legal.

[husaberg]

Stolen of a gun site i tidied up the swearseys a little


I have watched people on here moaning like little bitch's about potentially losing their AR's etc.
get your moral compass sorted , it's about lives not money or some poxy weapon.
There's a very good chance if it goes like the Aussie model you will get paid out then you can trundle off down the gun shop and continue to bitch to the sales staff and walk out with another rifle.

Kind of sums it up.

[jafagsx250]

https://thebigsmoke.com.au/2019/03/20/should-we-be-virtuous-about-our-gun-law-changes/

Thoughts?

[TheDemonLord]

https://thebigsmoke.com.au/2019/03/20/should-we-be-virtuous-about-our-gun-law-changes/

Thoughts?

Several points are spot on.

Interestingly enough, I've been watching the classic Hornblower TV Series, upon whom Captain Picard from Star Trek was based. A common theme is about what is means to be a Leader - sometimes quick decisive decisions are required, other times a measured approach, weighing all the various options and then referencing them to underlying principles is the best course of action.

[TheDemonLord]

Time to go to the range, Put up a target, enjoy it while it lasts.

Oh, and I wonder where they are going to find ~1-2 Billion dollars to fund this buy back.

[jasonu]

Oh, and I wonder where they are going to find ~1-2 Billion dollars to fund this buy back.

From you and all the other tax payers of course.

[husaberg]

From you and all the other tax payers of course.

Think again, the gun licence system is already 50% propped up by the tax payer in NZ as it is.
The average of $12 a year is not enough.
Why does the tax payer need to support the gun licence costs and administration?
The right wing ideals of the NRA, are for user pays for bang bang.
Shooting in NZ is a recreational activity for 99.9% of the licence holders.


The F.B.I. and special counsel Robert Mueller are investigating meetings between N.R.A. officials and powerful Russian operatives, trying to determine if those contacts had anything to do with the gun group spending $30 million to help elect Donald Trump—triple what it invested on behalf of Mitt Romney in 2012. The use of foreign money in American political campaigns is illegal. One encounter of particular interest to investigators is between Donald Trump Jr. and a Russian banker at an N.R.A. dinner.
The Russian wooing of N.R.A. executives goes back to at least 2011, when that same banker and politician, Alexander Torshin, befriended David Keene, who was then president of the gun-rights organization. Torshin soon became a “life member,” attending the N.R.A.’s annual conventions and introducing comrades to other gun-group officials. In 2015, Torshin welcomed an N.R.A. delegation to Moscow that included Keene and Joe Gregory, then head of the “Ring of Freedom” program, which is reserved for top donors to the N.R.A. Among the other hosts were Dmitry Rogozin, who until last month was the deputy prime minister overseeing Russia’s defense industry, and Sergei Rudov, head of the Saint Basil the Great Charitable Foundation, one of Russia’s wealthiest philanthropies

If its for a purely recreational activity for a small percentage of the population why would the greater proportion of tax payers want or be expected to fund it.
MNZ competition licences are not proped up by the government, nor are Cams licences for those you wish to race cars.
Or even for explosives licences they are user pays.
We have hunting agencies like fish and game that promote this.
Its the Same with DOC hunting permits

User pays, user says:
Fish and Game NZ is everyone who buys a fishing or hunting licence –
we are a ‘user pays, user says’
non-profit organisation that receives no government or taxpayer money.
Licence fees are set to cover the costs attributable to management of the fish and game resource. Your licence dollars go towards:
https://fishandgame.org.nz/about/what-does-fish-and-game-do/



When do you need a hunting permit?
To hunt animals on public conservation land you need a DOC hunting permit.
https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/things-to-do/hunting/permits-and-licences/hunting-permit/

[pete376403]

From you and all the other tax payers of course.

The estimated budget is $100-200 million. Which is still a lot, but, if it gets some of the guns out of circulation then there are that many less available to be stolen or sold on the black market.

[JimO]

if it gets some of the guns out of circulation then there are that many less available to be stolen or sold on the black market.
that will make the ones already on the black market worth more

[Honest Andy]

The estimated budget is $100-200 million. Which is still a lot, but, if it gets some of the guns out of circulation then there are that many less available to be stolen or sold on the black market.

Yep, chuck as many in the bin as we can.
Still fucks me off though. I remember having this discussion 30 years ago and we all decided MSSAs were a waste of time and pretty useless for what we were doing (ducks, deer, rabbits, possums) but still they were allowed and so for 30-odd years people have been making money out of importing them.
Oh well.

[sidecar bob]

that will make the ones already on the black market worth more

Absolutely, that's just a fact. Firearms that "don't exist" are worth considerably more.

[onearmedbandit]

Try 1 to 4 billion dollars. You have to pay market price for them otherwise compliance will be low. And it won't reduce the amount of guns in the market. Cos people will just buy more with the new money.






Oh, and I wonder where they are going to find ~1-2 Billion dollars to fund this buy back.


Industry experts (like gun shop owners as an example) would argue your figures are significantly over blown.

[TheDemonLord]

The estimated budget is $100-200 million. Which is still a lot, but, if it gets some of the guns out of circulation then there are that many less available to be stolen or sold on the black market.

There's an approx 600,000 rifles that are now Cat-E (including my own) - most cost more than $1000 (Mine is worth around $3k) - so the Maths does not add up.

[jafagsx250]

Time to go to the range, Put up a target, enjoy it while it lasts.

Oh, and I wonder where they are going to find ~1-2 Billion dollars to fund this buy back.

Can't. Ranges don't allow previously a cat Semis as they are now an unregistered MSSA. If you have E endorsements and E rifles then it's OK.




The estimated budget is $100-200 million. Which is still a lot, but, if it gets some of the guns out of circulation then there are that many less available to be stolen or sold on the black market.

That's delusional figures. Considering that Australia bought 700,000 odd guns back in a generous price. When there less and less valuable items. It'll be far more than they paid.


Yep, chuck as many in the bin as we can.
Still fucks me off though. I remember having this discussion 30 years ago and we all decided MSSAs were a waste of time and pretty useless for what we were doing (ducks, deer, rabbits, possums) but still they were allowed and so for 30-odd years people have been making money out of importing them.
Oh well.

If you think that they'll stop at Semis then you're wrong. It never ends.


Industry experts (like gun shop owners as an example) would argue your figures are significantly over blown.

If they're saying 2500 per MSSA. Which is a low ball figure considering how much they cost then it isn't.

[TheDemonLord]

Can't. Ranges don't allow previously a cat Semis as they are now an unregistered MSSA. If you have E endorsements and E rifles then it's OK.

Did you get confirmation on that? As I understand that we still have a grace period?

[jafagsx250]

Did you get confirmation on that? As I understand that we still have a grace period?All Nzda ranges are like that now.

It is foolish to go hunting with a prior to now legal a cat semi.

The cost to our credibility and your court costs are too great to risk it. I am taking my bolt. Even though I wanted to get a deer before the gun grabbers get their dirty mitts on it.

[jasonu]

Think again, the gun licence system is already 50% propped up by the tax payer in NZ as it is.
The average of $12 a year is not enough.
Why does the tax payer need to support the gun licence costs and administration?
The right wing ideals of the NRA, are for user pays for bang bang.
Shooting in NZ is a recreational activity for 99.9% of the licence holders.



If its for a purely recreational activity for a small percentage of the population why would the greater proportion of tax payers want or be expected to fund it.
MNZ competition licences are not proped up by the government, nor are Cams licences for those you wish to race cars.
Or even for explosives licences they are user pays.
We have hunting agencies like fish and game that promote this.
Its the Same with DOC hunting permits



https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/things-to-do/hunting/permits-and-licences/hunting-permit/

How much money does the tax payer kick in to yachting, Commonwealth and Olympic games training etc and wankby?

[jasonu]

There's an approx 600,000 rifles that are now Cat-E (including my own) - most cost more than $1000 (Mine is worth around $3k) - so the Maths does not add up.

What do you get for $3k in NZ?

[sidecar bob]

I'd really love the govt to come & pay me retail for a bunch of used equipment from my home.
Reality is that people will be dragging non operational old rubbish out in order to get a wee windfall from the Govt.
Who is going to set the prices?

[TheDemonLord]

What do you get for $3k in NZ?

DPMS AR-10 + Aftermarket stock + Carbine Length Buffer Tube + Spare Magazines

(all with NZ Prices)

[TheDemonLord]

All Nzda ranges are like that now.

It is foolish to go hunting with a prior to now legal a cat semi.

The cost to our credibility and your court costs are too great to risk it. I am taking my bolt. Even though I wanted to get a deer before the gun grabbers get their dirty mitts on it.

Guess I'm going to have to find a mates place with a Berm then.

[husaberg]

How much money does the tax payer kick in to yachting, Commonwealth and Olympic games training etc and wankby?

They are real sports that normal well adjusted people watch.
these sports are not hobby level like 99.99% on the NZ assault rifle use is. They are top level athletes not adults playing bang bang.
They bring prestige to NZ on a global scale.
The semi auto Assault rifles used brought the sort of international attention no one needs or wants.


I have no idea who wankby is? was it one of Trumps press secretaries i lost track of all their names.;)


PS for the buy back its fair market value not what you paid for it? then made second hand.
So any idiot confusing buying retail and then thinking they can get the same price selling back second hand might want to lower their expectations to meet the reality of the situation.
Also they are buying back the rifle not the upgraded, scopes etc.

[pritch]

It's an ill wind and all that. If the experience here mirrors that of Australia, gunshops should prepare for a sales boom. Many shooters in Australia handed in their newly illegal guns then promptly went out and bought a new one that was legal.

I don't think I have anything that will be caught up in the buy back, but in the event that's wrong, I'll treat myself to a new rifle.

[jasonu]

Who is going to collect the guns from all the David Grays and the boongah gangs. They sure as shit won't be voluntarily handing them over.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12215416

[husaberg]

Who is going to collect the guns from all the David Grays and the boongah gangs. They sure as shit won't be voluntarily handing them over.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12215416

Wow Jason

For pages and pages some people have been going on about how responsable all the other NZ gun owners are with military style Semi autos and how this is just one persons actions.
Now you are worried about police safety due toa large number of nutters with semi autos running around who will not want to comply with the gun laws.;)

[YellowDog]

Please can someone put me straight on this?

My only semi-auto rifle is a cheap and nasty Norinco SKS (7.62 x 39), on a fancy Dragunov stock, telescopic sight, with bi-pod and magazines that only hold 5 rounds.

As it doesn't have a pistol grip and doesn't fire more than 7 shots, I consider this gun to still be legal for a CAT A licence holder?

[husaberg]

Please can someone put me straight on this?

My only semi-auto rifle is a cheap and nasty Norinco SKS (7.62 x 39), on a fancy Dragunov stock, telescopic sight, with bi-pod and magazines that only hold 5 rounds.

As it doesn't have a pistol grip and doesn't fire more than 7 shots, I consider this gun to still be legal for a CAT A licence holder?

It also has to be not capable of having a larger mag purchased and inserted without mods.
I think you run into issues there
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/category/parts-and-accessories/magazines/sks.do


MSSAs include: semi-automatics capable of being used with a detachable magazine with more than five cartridges; and semi-automatic shotguns capable of being used with a detachable magazine holding more than five cartridges

3. What semi-automatic firearms are affected by Thursday's Order in Council?
Two types of firearms are now defined as Military Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs):
A semi-automatic firearm capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/385327/explainer-how-new-zealand-s-gun-laws-are-changing-in-the-wake-of-the-christchurch-attacks


2. What semi-automatic firearms will NOT be affected by the ban?
There is a balance to be struck between public safety and legitimate use. The changes exclude two general classes of firearms which are commonly used for hunting, pest control, stock management on farms, and duck shooting:
Semi-automatic .22 calibre rimfire firearms with a magazine which holds no more than ten rounds
Semi-automatic and pump action shotguns with a non-detachable tubular magazine which holds no more than five rounds

Ring up the police and ask them or ring up a gun club.

[jasonu]

Wow Jason


Now you are worried about police safety due toa large number of nutters with semi autos running around who will not want to comply with the gun laws.;)

Not sure how you got that from my post.

[husaberg]

Not sure how you got that from my post.
from the words jason, from the words. David Gray had a gun licence.

Who is going to collect the guns from all the David Grays and the boongah gangs. They sure as shit won't be voluntarily handing them over.

[jasonu]

from the words jason, from the words. David Gray had a gun licence.

My point is that almost all of the guns that will be voluntarily handed over will be from law abiding citizens.
License holders or not, the David Grays, the Brenton Tarrants and the gangs will hang on to their hardware and will make it fucking difficult for the authorities to find them if they come calling.
Clear enough for you???

[jasonu]

from the words jason, from the words. David Gray had a gun licence.

Oh and please do not quote my posts in case Pritch gets his seniors undies in a bunch again.;)

[husaberg]

My point is that almost all of the guns that will be voluntarily handed over will be from law abiding citizens.
License holders or not, the David Grays, the CHch dickwad and the gangs will hang on to their hardware and will make it fucking difficult for the authorities to find them if they come calling.
Clear enough for you???

Yip the law abiding ones will hand over the guns. The ones that dont are criminals and will be treated as such.
We will see if these other law abiding citizens report the names of those that still have the illegal firearms.
The bit you are missing is the David Greys and the Chch dickkwads whose name no one remembers or posts the name of, purchased the guns legally.


Oh and please do not quote my posts in case Pritch gets his seniors undies in a bunch again.;)

Pritch says hi

[pritch]

Was out on ride this morning and heard a strange story. Bill who is getting on a bit, used to have B, C and E endorsements on his firearms licence but he has long since sold all of his guns. His licence is still valid but he's just waiting for it to expire. He received a phone call from someone at the police, they wanted to check his security.

Bill told the guy that he'd sold all his guns and that their records should confirm that fact. His safe is empty plus they are holding photographs of his safe so they should not need to visit.

It was all to no avail, the guy insisted. When the visit took place the guy arrived with photos of the safe in his paperwork. What that's about God knows? All I can put it down to is that the guy is paid by piecework and needed the cash.

[jasonu]

The bit you are missing is the David Greys and the Chch dickkwads whose name no one remembers or posts the name of, purchased the guns legally.


Yes I know that.
Quite different to here where more often than not the mass shootings were done with illegally obtained weapons.

[husaberg]

Yes I know that.
Quite different to here where the majority of the mass shootings were done with illegally obtained weapons.

Its not the case here, Although the Aramoana one should have had his revoked earlier. The Rairimu killers one was revoked but he still unfortunately had ready access to his fathers unlocked and illegible sawn-off shotgun.
The only one i can think off was the Napier one, who had not renewed his. i am sure there have been others but they were more robberies gone wrong etc rather than spree killers.

[husaberg]

Was out on ride this morning and heard a strange story. Bill who is getting on a bit, used to have B, C and E endorsements on his firearms licence but he has long since sold all of his guns. His licence is still valid but he's just waiting for it to expire. He received a phone call from someone at the police, they wanted to check his security.

Bill told the guy that he'd sold all his guns and that their records should confirm that fact. His safe is empty plus they are holding photographs of his safe so they should not need to visit.

It was all to no avail, the guy insisted. When the visit took place the guy arrived with photos of the safe in his paperwork. What that's about God knows? All I can put it down to is that the guy is paid by piecework and needed the cash.

Being thorough i guess?
Locks only keep honest people out
If you ask the prisioners if they are guilty or not the prisons are full of innocent people
Thus a criminal is going to say he has no rifles if you ask them?
The best you can do is do checks?

[jasonu]

DPMS AR-10 + Aftermarket stock + Carbine Length Buffer Tube + Spare Magazines

(all with NZ Prices)

Like this???
http://www.armslist.com/posts/9480260/bend-oregon-rifles-for-sale--custom-ar15

[AllanB]

Shit man I may have to vote for the big J next year the way she is taking control and doing stuff finally. Now if she could just reduce the ACC portion on my motorcycle rego I'd happy.

[sidecar bob]

Shit man I may have to vote for the big J next year the way she is taking control and doing stuff finally. Now if she could just reduce the ACC portion on my motorcycle rego I'd happy.

She did what any of us could have done, looked sincere & said a few things. Nothing I couldn't have pulled with plausibility, and punished all gun owners using the high emotion of the country as a platform.
She's had it served up on a platter to pander to the gullible once again.

[husaberg]

She did what any of us could have done, looked sincere & said a few things. Nothing I couldn't have pulled with plausibility, and punished all gun owners using the high emotion of the country as a platform.
She's had it served up on a platter to pander to the gullible once again.

How was this different from 1990 when Jim Boger did not ban MSSA's his goverment just created a separate category for them even though one was used to kill a large number of people by a deranged loser.Who for the most part used a SKS (sorry it was a semi AK47 copy)
The gun makers soon skirted around this.

[Swoop]

Please can someone put me straight on this?

My only semi-auto rifle is a cheap and nasty Norinco SKS (7.62 x 39), and magazines that only hold 5 rounds.

As it doesn't have a pistol grip and doesn't fire more than 7 shots, I consider this gun to still be legal for a CAT A licence holder?
Yes, your rifle is fine. (you say "magazines" though. Is it fully fixed into the stock and loaded through the action?
OR, does it accept detachable box mags?

SKS + Fixed mag.
SKK = Detachable mags, same type as AK's.



Was out on ride this morning and heard a strange story. Bill who is getting on a bit, used to have B, C and E endorsements on his firearms licence but he has long since sold all of his guns. His licence is still valid but he's just waiting for it to expire. He received a phone call from someone at the police, they wanted to check his security.

Bill told the guy that he'd sold all his guns and that their records should confirm that fact. His safe is empty plus they are holding photographs of his safe so they should not need to visit.

It was all to no avail, the guy insisted.
Not un-surprising.
Just guess how accurate their registry of firearms is...

[sidecar bob]

How was this different from 1990 when Jim Boger did not ban MSSA's his goverment just created a separate category for them even though one was used to kill a large number of people by a deranged loser.Who for the most part used a SKS
The gun makers soon skirted around this.

I'm not sure, but that doesn't make my post any less correct.

[husaberg]

I'm not sure, but that doesn't make my post any less correct.

How do you figure that, its okay to say she was decisive even if you don't like cCndy or what she did.
Think of it like angry sex. Just because she pisses you off it doesn't make it less enjoyable.

[husaberg]

Yes, your rifle is fine. (you say "magazines" though. Is it fully fixed into the stock and loaded through the action?
OR, does it accept detachable box mags?

SKS + Fixed mag.
SKK = Detachable mags, same type as AK's.

i Dont think so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csvuvOEl0gc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5a6l9vXVQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Y-eLQFeyI
Then you can also make it QD mag in or at bolt open or closed with a file or a grander in 15 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV1QR6bRdUc

Also if you look at the guncity site you will see they have been removed
https://www.guncity.com/762x39-issued-norinco-sks-20-a-cat-5-shot-231050


MSSAs include: semi-automatics capable of being used with a detachable magazine with more than five cartridges; and semi-automatic shotguns capable of being used with a detachable magazine holding more than five cartridges

3. What semi-automatic firearms are affected by Thursday's Order in Council?
Two types of firearms are now defined as Military Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs):
A semi-automatic firearm capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natio...church-attacks
2. What semi-automatic firearms will NOT be affected by the ban?
There is a balance to be struck between public safety and legitimate use. The changes exclude two general classes of firearms which are commonly used for hunting, pest control, stock management on farms, and duck shooting:
Semi-automatic .22 calibre rimfire firearms with a magazine which holds no more than ten rounds
Semi-automatic and pump action shotguns with a non-detachable tubular magazine which holds no more than five rounds

[TheDemonLord]

Hmmmmmm....

Ideas....

https://uintahprecision.com/product/bolt-action-ar-upper-assembly/

[jasonu]

She did what any of us could have done, looked sincere & said a few things. Nothing I couldn't have pulled with plausibility, and punished all gun owners using the high emotion of the country as a platform.
She's had it served up on a platter to pander to the gullible once again.

I've been thinking the same thing for days. I'll wager there is some sort of publicist team in the background ensuring she gets the most out of this situation (as any politician would).
But yes, don't be fooled. Sooner she and her hapless followers will be back to their usual daily fuck ups.

[jasonu]

Hmmmmmm....

Ideas....

https://uintahprecision.com/product/bolt-action-ar-upper-assembly/

Do it asap. Banning semi autos will be just the beginning.

[Laava]

Hmmmmmm....

Ideas....

https://uintahprecision.com/product/bolt-action-ar-upper-assembly/
Lol, what a fucking waste of $3000! You could buy a way better rifle with the money. Of course you won't look like Rambo!

[pritch]

Being thorough i guess?
The best you can do is do checks?

Checking a safe known to be empty is not thorough, it's stupid.
The police records show that his guns have all been sold - and who he sold them to.

It's not as if they are going to find an illegal gun, they ring up and make an appointment for the visit.

[Laava]

The police records show that his guns have all been sold - and who he sold them to.
Are you sure about that? I am not required to notify the police if I buy or sell a gun under any circumstances. Not saying this is how it should be, just how it is at the moment.
in any case, the guy who comes to inspect your safe, same people who do your relicense here in the far north, is from the Mountain Safety Council or somesuch

[husaberg]

Checking a safe known to be empty is not thorough, it's stupid.
The police records show that his guns have all been sold - and who he sold them to.

It's not as if they are going to find an illegal gun, they ring up and make an appointment for the visit.

Maybe the rules are they have to be checked in person.


I've been thinking the same thing for days. I'll wager there is some sort of publicist team in the background ensuring she gets the most out of this situation (as any politician would).
But yes, don't be fooled. Sooner she and her hapless followers will be back to their usual daily fuck ups.

Do you realise that she is an actual clever bugger in her own right Jason?
As well as being being a senior policy adviser to Tony Blair, she also has a Bachelor of Communication Studies (BCS) in politics and public relations.
Imagine how far she could have got with a orange fake tan smaller hands ans a small loan of a 120 MILLION DOLLARS.

[jasonu]

Maybe the rules are they have to be checked in person.



Do you realise that she is an actual clever bugger in her own right Jason?
As well as being being a senior policy adviser to Tony Blair, she also has a Bachelor of Communication Studies (BCS) in politics and public relations.
Imagine how far she could have got with a orange fake tan smaller hands ans a small loan of a 120 MILLION DOLLARS.

Mate I don't think she is thick, just stupid and ignorant

[husaberg]

Mate I don't think she is thick, just stupid and ignorant

Your thoughts on Trump because 99% of the world has him down for the trifecta, Not without good reason either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUrwUjG2YpM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS7VSKgzI1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHQHERnlyso
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yCMy4xpF6U

[pritch]

Are you sure about that? I am not required to notify the police if I buy or sell a gun under any circumstances. Not saying this is how it should be, just how it is at the moment.
in any case, the guy who comes to inspect your safe, same people who do your relicense here in the far north, is from the Mountain Safety Council or somesuch

Absolutely sure. I did mention that he had B, C and E endorsements. All firearms held under those endorsements are tracked.

Here the guy who checks the safe is most likely a retired cop.

[jasonu]

Your thoughts on Trump because 99% of the world has him down for the trifecta, Not without good reason either.

Things are ticking over quite nicely here. Did you see the muller democrat witch hunt is over and they have totally failed to stick anything to Trump. Great big waste of time and money.

[husaberg]

Things are ticking over quite nicely here. Did you see the muller democrat witch hunt is over and they have totally failed to stick anything to Trump. Great big waste of time and money.
Ticking over nicely Trump promised 4% GDP grown yet predicted Growth is 2.1% which is Half of Trumps predictions?
The investagation is a waste of money, Yeah right, the investigation is over that doesn't mean Trumps in the clear, a heck of a lot of his people have been indicted including his personal laywer.
Mueller’s team secured criminal indictments of more than two dozen Russians accused of involvement in Moscow’s interference in the 2016 US election, which US intelligence agencies concluded was aimed at helping Trump win.
You haven't seen the report and never has trump.
What happens next is up to the attorney general
So really you dont see trump as arrogant or stupid?
Ps US Senate elections next year. the fact the Republicans control the senate is the only thing stopping him getting impeached right now.
He cant even get his Wall bill passed as his own party is voting against it.

[Swoop]

i Dont think so

Then you can also make it QD mag in or at bolt open or closed with a file or a grander in 15 minutes
That is a rather difficult hassle to go through? Why not just buy an SKK?
I can't say that i've seen that type of modification before... and really wonder why anyone would go through the hassle over a poxy SKS.

Also if you look at the guncity site you will see they have been removed
Anything to do with semi's is affected by the order in council, so will have been removed. TardeMe did exactly the same. All dealers have to do this since knowing that there is a law change coming, and continuing to sell, is a chargeable offence.

[pritch]

He cant even get his Wall bill passed as his own party is voting against it.

Bugger. You quoted Jason again.

Good job that you did though, it seems he's got a huge scoop. He knows what's in Mueller's report.
We know what's supposed to be there, but the actual detail is still a secret and very few people know anything about the contents - but Jason does. Either he's immensely well connected, clairvoyant, or he's simple.

On another note, Trump is missing in action on Twitter. Unlike Jason, I don't know what's in the report, but I think if it was good news the orange idiot wouldn't be able to contain himself.

[husaberg]

That is a rather difficult hassle to go through? Why not just buy an SKK?
I can't say that i've seen that type of modification before... and really wonder why anyone would go through the hassle over a poxy SKS.

Anything to do with semi's is affected by the order in council, so will have been removed. TardeMe did exactly the same. All dealers have to do this since knowing that there is a law change coming, and continuing to sell, is a chargeable offence.

Yes, your rifle is fine. (you say "magazines" though. Is it fully fixed into the stock and loaded through the action?
OR, does it accept detachable box mags?

SKS + Fixed mag.
SKK = Detachable mags, same type as AK's.



Not un-surprising.
Just guess how accurate their registry of firearms is...
You said it would be legal to have a 5 shot SKS as a A cat i showed otherwise. Did you miss that?
The law says capable, the SKS is easily capable with just a few minutes non skilled work of have large capacity magazines fitted. Thus its not A cat.


Bugger. You quoted Jason again.


He says hi.

[jasonu]

Bugger. You quoted Jason again.

Good job that you did though, it seems he's got a huge scoop. He knows what's in Mueller's report.
We know what's supposed to be there, but the actual detail is still a secret and very few people know anything about the contents - but Jason does. Either he's immensely well connected, clairvoyant, or he's simple.

On another note, Trump is missing in action on Twitter. Unlike Jason, I don't know what's in the report, but I think if it was good news the orange idiot wouldn't be able to contain himself.

I saw it in the herald.

[TheDemonLord]

Lol, what a fucking waste of $3000! You could buy a way better rifle with the money. Of course you won't look like Rambo!

I could, but there are reasons why I'm considering doing it this way.

And none of them have got anything to do with Rambo (I'd need an M60 for that)

[Swoop]

You said it would be legal to have a 5 shot SKS as a A cat i showed otherwise. Did you miss that?
The law says capable, the SKS is easily capable with just a few minutes non skilled work of have large capacity magazines fitted.

Responding to his original question, all the SKS's I've seen have had the metal magazines and not any plastic aftermarket stuff. When they arrived in NZ (in bulk - 1990's?) there wasn't the option of aftermarket. Your vids show replacement of the units, but whether they class as a "detachable box mag" can be debateable (not that I'm going to do that here). All I'm saying is that a metal magwell which is loaded through the action once the bolt is retracted rearwards seems akin to a fixed magwell.

Having to grind the crap out of the bolt to get the thing to work seems overboard too.

[Laava]

Absolutely sure. I did mention that he had B, C and E endorsements. All firearms held under those endorsements are tracked.

Here the guy who checks the safe is most likely a retired cop.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, I only have a cat A license...

[Laava]

Was talking to a guy who is aggrieved about having to hand over his AR15 s and the best reason he could come up with for keeping them was that he just doesn't want to give them up. He hunts but never with his ARs, in fact I think it is a long time since they actually fired anything....

[husaberg]

Responding to his original question, all the SKS's I've seen have had the metal magazines and not any plastic aftermarket stuff. When they arrived in NZ (in bulk - 1990's?) there wasn't the option of aftermarket. Your vids show replacement of the units, but whether they class as a "detachable box mag" can be debateable (not that I'm going to do that here). All I'm saying is that a metal magwell which is loaded through the action once the bolt is retracted rearwards seems akin to a fixed magwell.

Having to grind the crap out of the bolt to get the thing to work seems overboard too.

No debate at all, they are capable of being fitted with a larger Mag so they are not A class.
Its that simple.
Installing the larger mag in the SKS is something any idiot can do in 15 minutes with simple hand-tools,this deems it to be not A Class.
You on the other hand said it was legal as an A class, it clearly is not, end of story.

The bolt was ground to make it easier to insert the large mag bolt open or bolt closed it had nothing to do with the conversion to a larger mag.

[Indiana_Jones]

This thread got spicy lol

[neil.]

Mate I don't think she is thick, just stupid and ignorant

and deliberately so, to get as much political mileage as possible.

she will be aiming for the UN job, the rest of NZ is just "in the way"

[Swoop]

No debate at all, they are capable of being fitted with a larger Mag so they are not A class.
Its that simple.
Opinions will vary.

[husaberg]

Opinions will vary.

Funny but irrelevant as yours is clearly wrong
Unless you don't believe the SKS is capable of having a larger mag fitted, desspite of it obviously being capable of doing so with a few minutes of unskilled work.

[Swoop]

Funny but irrelevant as yours is clearly wrong
Unless you don't believe the SKS is capable of having a larger mag fitted, desspite of it obviously being capable of doing so with a few minutes of unskilled work.

My (and your) opinion is irrelevant, as the government (& plod) will decide.


I'm looking at my 5rnd SKS and know it is not capable of being fitted with a "detachable box magazine".

[AllanB]

Interesting. I don't know guns just watching the above disagreement.

So what's this shit - 10 round pined to 5? what's the point?

https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/sks-fixed-magazine-7-62x39-10-5-round.html#.XJiCPPkzbIU

[husaberg]

My (and your) opinion is irrelevant, as the government (& plod) will decide.


I'm looking at my 5rnd SKS and know it is not capable of being fitted with a "detachable box magazine".

The Goverment drew the legislation is very clear the SKS doesn't meet it suck it up.

MSSAs include: semi-automatics capable of being used with a detachable magazine with more than five cartridges; and semi-automatic shotguns capable of being used with a detachable magazine holding more than five cartridges

3. What semi-automatic firearms are affected by Thursday's Order in Council?
Two types of firearms are now defined as Military Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs):
A semi-automatic firearm capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges
https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/natio...church-attacks
2. What semi-automatic firearms will NOT be affected by the ban?
There is a balance to be struck between public safety and legitimate use. The changes exclude two general classes of firearms which are commonly used for hunting, pest control, stock management on farms, and duck shooting:
Semi-automatic .22 calibre rimfire firearms with a magazine which holds no more than ten rounds
Semi-automatic and pump action shotguns with a non-detachable tubular magazine which holds no more than five rounds
i

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csvuvOEl0gc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5a6l9vXVQY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Y-eLQFeyI





Interesting. I don't know guns just watching the above disagreement.

So what's this shit - 10 round pined to 5? what's the point?

https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/sks-fixed-magazine-7-62x39-10-5-round.html#.XJiCPPkzbIU

Without watching it some of the game laws restrict mag capasicity to a certain number
one of the ways arround it was to put in packers like bottle tops to take up the space.
they just list mag size but dont use terms like "capable"

the whole idea od the new gun laws is to help to prevent an idiot getting a semi auto with a large mag and running amok
Yet still idiots like to think but i want my bang bang.

[Laava]

Interesting. I don't know guns just watching the above disagreement.

So what's this shit - 10 round pined to 5? what's the point?

https://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/sks-fixed-magazine-7-62x39-10-5-round.html#.XJiCPPkzbIU
No it's not that. It's a top loading in situ mag that only takes 5. In the field all your ammo is on clips so you just press the ammo in and throw the clip away

[husaberg]

No it's not that. It's a top loading in situ mag that only takes 5. In the field all your ammo is on clips so you just press the ammo in and throw the clip away

I assumed he was meaning this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek-EtThJk-U

[Swoop]

I assumed he was meaning this
No. That is a non-compliant "bodge job".

The metal mag-well is the same, but is cut down completely so that ~5-10mm protrudes from the bottom of the wooden stock.
The rounds are still loaded down from the top, through the action, but the mag only holds 5rnds.

There will be hundreds of these in the country in this condition. Remember back in the 90's when container loads arrived and you could pick one up on a normal firearms licence for ~$250-?

[husaberg]

No. That is a non-compliant "bodge job".

The metal mag-well is the same, but is cut down completely so that ~5-10mm protrudes from the bottom of the wooden stock.
The rounds are still loaded down from the top, through the action, but the mag only holds 5rnds.

There will be hundreds of these in the country in this condition. Remember back in the 90's when container loads arrived and you could pick one up on a normal firearms licence for ~$250-?

If you watched the video its not for nz or anything other than a hunting rule,in this case it must only be fitted with a certain capascity mag, do keep up.
A SkS is no longer legal in NZ as a A cat. The rules are if its "capable" of having a large mag fitted it is not A cat.no mater how you try and frame it.

[jasonu]

If you watched the video its not for nz or anything other than a hunting rule,in this case it must only be fitted with a certain capascity mag, do keep up.
A SkS is no longer legal in NZ as a A cat. The rules are if its "capable" of having a large mag fitted it is not A cat.no mater how you try and frame it.

'Capable' in its current condition or after someone has fucked with it?

[husaberg]

'Capable' in its current condition or after someone has fucked with it?

Capable means just that, if there is 10 different YouTube videos and multiple different large capacity magazines available for the express purpose of fitting them to a sks. It is clearly capable.
one minute to convert a SKS to take a 30 or 75 round mag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Y-eLQFeyI


The only reason to keep pushing the “no the SKS assault rifle is okay” is a clumsy attempt by a selfish dick to try and get around the rules.
Which in case you missed was to fix the previous one that was saying assault rifles were okay as long as the pistol grip was separate and the mag was under x bullets. The rule didn’t work as the suppliers just changed the stocks to suit and sold the large mags separate. So 50 people are dead in case you missed it.
The large capacity magazines are sold with the purpose of being fitted to the SKS.
here is 14 of them
https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/category/parts-and-accessories/magazines/sks.do


"No gunsmithing required this is a drop in part."
https://www.guncity.com/sks-duckbill-magazine-5-rounds-steel-232962

7 round
https://www.guncity.com/sks-7.62x39-7-round-magazine-338852

"Note an e cat licience is required"

[TheDemonLord]

Capable means just that, if there is 10 different YouTube videos and multiple different large capacity magazines available for the express purpose of fitting them to a sks. It is clearly capable.

The only reason to keep pushing the “no the SKS assault rifle is okay” is a clumsy attempt by a selfish dick to try and get around the rules.
Which in case you missed was to fix the previous one that was saying assault rifles were okay as long as the pistol grip was separate and the mag was under x bullets. The rule didn’t work as the suppliers just changed the stocks to suit and sold the large mags separate. So 50 people are dead in case you missed it.

So, by that logic, all Metal and Metal-working tools are now Cat-E items, as they are 'capable' of making an MSSA....

[husaberg]

Here we are weeks later still we have people moaning like little bitch's about losing access to owning a gun they never even needed in the first place.
Its well past the time you should have figured out why its a stand NZ as a whole is taking.
No different than our stand condemning the French terrorists who bombed the Rainbow Warrior or the Nuclear free zone we made in and around New Zealand.

The change in NZ law is about lives, not money or some pathetic weapon you want to have for pose value or fun.
NZ doesn't have a right to bear arms in its constitution. Nor do you need a semi auto Military style assault rifle, you mealy want one.
People in NZ can still continue own a firearm as a privilege, to hunt with, as a hobby or sport or collecting.
But simply as a result of 50 innocent people getting killed recently in the mater of minutes by a total loser, you longer have that privilege anymore to own a military style semi Automatic anymore on a A cat licence.
Even one without a large mag or a butt-stock that's modified in the effort to get around the no pistol-grip rule.
Its over.
For those that continue on moaning. Man up and face facts. ITS OVER.

[Carboncaster]

They may change Act later to include rifles like the SKS, but the order in council is clear and the courts are bound to interpret all laws and regulations conservatively so as not to extend powers of the State beyond the letter of the law and the intention of Parliament.

An SKS sold as an A-Cat 5-round fixed magazine rifle cannot take a detachable magazine in standard form and has to be (now) illegally converted/modified before it is capable of fitting a detachable magazine and so fall within the new classification of an MSSA. Converting any A-Cat to MSSA regardless of the definition of what an MSSA is at the time, has always been illegal. Just as sawing off a shotgun is an illegal modification that turns it into a prohibited weapon. Just as now putting a magazine holding more than 10 rounds on to .22 now makes by definition an MSSA when 15 rounds used to be the limit.

The words used is "capable of", not "capable of, or capable by modification of" and the ease of difficult with which it is rendered capable isn't the issue. It either capable is or it isnt.

[jasonu]

They may change Act later to include rifles like the SKS, but the order in council is clear and the courts are bound to interpret all laws and regulations conservatively so as not to extend powers of the State beyond the letter of the law and the intention of Parliament.

An SKS sold as an A-Cat 5-round fixed magazine rifle cannot take a detachable magazine in standard form and has to be (now) illegally converted/modified before it is capable of fitting a detachable magazine and so fall within the new classification of an MSSA. Converting any A-Cat to MSSA regardless of the definition of what an MSSA is at the time, has always been illegal. Just as sawing off a shotgun is an illegal modification that turns it into a prohibited weapon. Just as now putting a magazine holding more than 10 rounds on to .22 now makes by definition an MSSA when 15 rounds used to be the limit.

The words used is "capable of", not "capable of, or capable by modification of" and the ease of difficult with which it is rendered capable isn't the issue. It either capable is or it isnt.

Well said that man.

[TheDemonLord]

Here we are weeks later still we have people moaning like little bitch's about losing access to owning a gun they never even needed in the first place.
Its well past the time you should have figured out why its a stand NZ as a whole is taking.
No different than our stand condemning the French terrorists who bombed the Rainbow Warrior or the Nuclear free zone we made in and around New Zealand.

The change in NZ law is about lives, not money or some pathetic weapon you want to have for pose value or fun.
NZ doesn't have a right to bear arms in its constitution. Nor do you need a semi auto Military style assault rifle, you mealy want one.
People in NZ can still continue own a firearm as a privilege, to hunt with, as a hobby or sport or collecting.
But simply as a result of 50 innocent people getting killed recently in the mater of minutes by a total loser, you longer have that privilege anymore to own a military style semi Automatic anymore on a A cat licience.
Even one without a large mag or a buttstock that's modified in the effort to get around the no pistol-grip rule.
Its over.
For those that continue on moaning. Man up and face facts. ITS OVER.

'needed' is such a loaded term, there's plenty of things that kill far more New Zealanders, every year, than Semi-Automatic Firearms that we don't 'need' - Should we ban all of those too?

Or is the definition of Need highly subjective, based on the individuals stance on an issue.

Saving Lives? If the ban on Semi-Autos meant that there would never be any Terrorist attack, of any type in the future (Using legally acquired means or illegally acquired means) - then I might agree. But as history shows quite clearly, it does not.

And no, it's Not over.

[husaberg]

They may change Act later to include rifles like the SKS, but the order in council is clear and the courts are bound to interpret all laws and regulations conservatively so as not to extend powers of the State beyond the letter of the law and the intention of Parliament.

An SKS sold as an A-Cat 5-round fixed magazine rifle cannot take a detachable magazine in standard form and has to be (now) illegally converted/modified before it is capable of fitting a detachable magazine and so fall within the new classification of an MSSA. Converting any A-Cat to MSSA regardless of the definition of what an MSSA is at the time, has always been illegal. Just as sawing off a shotgun is an illegal modification that turns it into a prohibited weapon. Just as now putting a magazine holding more than 10 rounds on to .22 now makes by definition an MSSA when 15 rounds used to be the limit.

The words used is "capable of", not "capable of, or capable by modification of" and the ease of difficult with which it is rendered capable isn't the issue. It either capable is or it isnt.

You might want to read the order again.
the order covers all assult rifles and semi autos of larger capacity that 22.

Following the Christchurch terrorist attack, the Government moved quickly to reclassify semi-automatic weapons with a calibre greater than .22 as MSSA.
The sks needs no mods to have a detachable magazine it just needs the magazine fitted. You suggesting it needs some kind of modification to do this is wrong.
the magazine is the mod. other than some need a bit of samndpaper work on the wood.

Same as it is with a AR15 was prior, it was then with the magazine was the modified. and illegal.
Or are you trying to say the Ar15 is now still legal as long as it has a small mag? becuause thats just stupid talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9Y-eLQFeyI
The SKS is capable of have a larger magazine fitted any amount of your trying to say it wont change this basic fact.

A semi-automatic firearm capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges
is clear
Just as a AR15 is not a A Class rifle anymore no mater what size mag is fitted neither is a SKS anymore.
As for below, try again:clap:

The words used is "capable of", not "capable of,


Well said that man.

Maybe you can explain the difference with capable of or capable of.
Of show the modifications needed to fit the larger mags.

[pritch]

After Aramoana John Banks introduced a new firearms licencing system. He said words to the effect, "I had to do something and this is what I did."

Some shooters of my acquaintance are a bit put out about the new restrictions. I'm more realistic/pessimistic. Since Aramoana I have thought that we were one mass shooting from a semi auto ban. That shooting has happened and now the ban.

I have just the one semi auto but I don't think it's caught up in the ban. If it is, I'll take the money and buy something that's still legal. Preferably something that can take some of my existing stock of consumables.

On an unrelated note. Following a rather nasty bike crash on SH43, "The Forgotten World Highway", a helicopter was called to uplift the rider. While the chopper was idling in a paddock beside the road a farmer rode up on his four wheeler carrying a Ruger Mini14 with several banana mags sticking out of his pockets. Presumably he thought someone was stealing his stock.

My first thought was that his ability as a gun slinger was on a par with Sir Peter Blake's. Blake was a great sailor but a fatally crap gunfighter.

[husaberg]

After Aramoana John Banks introduced a new firearms licencing system. He said words to the effect, "I had to do something and this is what I did."

Some shooters of my acquaintance are a bit put out about the new restrictions. I'm more realistic/pessimistic. Since Aramoana I have thought that we were one mass shooting from a semi auto ban. That shooting has happened and now the ban.

I have just the one semi auto but I don't think it's caught up in the ban. If it is, I'll take the money and buy something that's still legal. Preferably something that can take some of my existing stock of consumables.

On an unrelated note. Following a rather nasty bike crash on SH43, "The Forgotten World Highway", a helicopter was called to uplift the rider. While the chopper was idling in a paddock beside the road a farmer rode up on his four wheeler carrying a Ruger Mini14 with several banana mags sticking out of his pockets. Presumably he thought someone was stealing his stock.

My first thought was that his ability as a gun slinger was on a par with Sir Peter Blake's. Blake was a great sailor but a fatally crap gunfighter.

I just found this on the Ex defense force SLR's.

The Defence Force sold 3000 of these firearms in the late 1980s before Aramoana and subsequent MSSA classification.
"Very few [L1A1] are registered with police," according to a briefing to Police Minister Stuart Nash released under the Official Information Act.
"One L1A1 was found in Jan Molenaar's arsenal and another seized in 2016 from a methamphetamine operation in Christchurch."
Where the rest are, nobody knows.
It was a point picked up by the Coroner investigating the deaths of Molenaar and Snee.
The very first recommendation of Coroner David Crerar was New Zealand's gun laws needed to change.
"The policy of tracking MSSAs and confirming the type of firearm that is a MSSA must be looked at again," Coroner Crerar wrote in August 2010.

[pritch]

I just found this on the Ex defense force SLR's.

That figure does not include the SLRs imported new, or those stolen from the army - and there were a few of the latter. Possibly quite a few. And no, I haven’t got one.

The police do register firearms in a somewhat haphazard manner as to description, and it’s possible that many SLRs are listed but under a number of different descriptions.

[husaberg]

That figure does not include the SLRs imported new, or those stolen from the army - and there were a few of the latter. Possibly quite a few. And no, I haven’t got one.

The police do register firearms in a somewhat haphazard manner as to description, and it’s possible that many SLRs are listed but under a number of different descriptions.

It came up on a search about the Dickhead who had the Napier shootout, far to heavy a rifle to be lugging around the bush.
Its a shame with the registry that was one of the things that was too happen after Aromoana.
Hopefully they will do some proper tracking down now of all the grey guns out there.
All those that don't comply with the new gun laws need to consider that they are the criminals with the guns they keep saying are the real problem.

[AllanB]

All those that don't comply with the new gun laws need to consider that they are the criminals with the guns they keep saying are the real problem.

That's the new reality after the law change.

It should be interesting to see the line up of interesting weapons that get turned in when they start the buy back. I predict someone will turn up with something very very wrong but seriously impressive!

[TheDemonLord]

That's the new reality after the law change.

It should be interesting to see the line up of interesting weapons that get turned in when they start the buy back. I predict someone will turn up with something very very wrong but seriously impressive!

There is a question to be asked however:

If the rules of the game change, and retrospectively penalise you - what reason do you have to play within the rules?

[Laava]

There is a question to be asked however:

If the rules of the game change, and retrospectively penalise you - what reason do you have to play within the rules?
you mean like when they took our lifetime licenses off us?

[husaberg]

That's the new reality after the law change.

It should be interesting to see the line up of interesting weapons that get turned in when they start the buy back. I predict someone will turn up with something very very wrong but seriously impressive!

That's reality, but watch how some have a lot of trouble coping with it. Some peopke it seems cant fathom that they are not beyond the law and trying to subvert it.
That itself makes it clear they shouldn't have had the firearms in the first place.
As they clearly cant be trusted to follow the law. which is hilarious seeing as they like to describe themselves a being responsible. One hopes the ones caught with these ilegal guns will be dealt with with imprisonment and forfiture of assets just as other criminals do.

But yes There will be some real interesting stuff in the wood work.
Supposedly a huge percentage never renewed their gun licences when the ten year ones rolled around.

I was reading something about the Samurai sword nutter (who i assume topped himself in prison but the looks of it) it turned out he made a sub-machine gun and killed someone with it.
Best i can find out it was made out of part of other guns.

Police can confirm that the weapon is in fact ‘homemade’ and is further described as ‘of irregular construction, comprising parts from various military weapons and is classified as a restricted weapon’.

the only other use of a sub-machine gun i can recall was Ron Jorganson in the 60's with the Thomposn

What i just found though was the NZ police has 8 of these American 180. It has a top mounted drum, holding of hundreds of .22 rounds. they were build for non lethalish crowd control

https://youtu.be/v8TmU5bXZ9M
https://youtu.be/J50N5lQoAFw

I remember a kiwi in one of the wars invented a very fast firing machine gun i cant remember who it was or what war but at the time is was suposed to be the fastest in the world.

[jasonu]

That's the new reality after the law change.

It should be interesting to see the line up of interesting weapons that get turned in when they start the buy back. I predict someone will turn up with something very very wrong but seriously impressive!

I'll bet a brengun or 2 show up

[Laava]

I remember a kiwi in one of the wars invented a very fast firing machine gun i cant remember who it was or what war but at the time is was suposed to be the fastest in the world.
You might be thinking of the Owen gun, but fairly sure that was an aussie bloke.

[pritch]

far to heavy a rifle to be lugging around the bush.


That will come as news to a generation of soldiers who did exactly that - and who remember the SLR fondly.

When the first round of licencing under Bank's regime finished, research could have been undertaken to see who had not renewed their licence and why. That would have required resources though, and none were made available so nothing was done.
An arms amnesty was announced, even though there was already an arms amnesty in progress at the time. And that was that.

[Kickaha]

I remember a kiwi in one of the wars invented a very fast firing machine gun i cant remember who it was or what war but at the time is was suposed to be the fastest in the world.

There was the Charlton but it was only 600 rpm and I know there was another one as I've seen it in Waioru but I can't remember the name

[TheDemonLord]

you mean like when they took our lifetime licenses off us?

No, I don't.

A Licence is functionally very different from the item that is licenced.

[husaberg]

There was the Charlton but it was only 600 rpm and I know there was another one as I've seen it in Waioru but I can't remember the name

No idea it was in number 8 wired i think unless it was ww1 it would have been faster as i think even the sten was more than that.
https://www.forgottenweapons.com/light-machine-guns/charlton-automatic-rifle/
Very intersting story i had never heard of thanks for that.
Edit i think it is it it was just a few paragrapghs in a early edition but it mentioned him takening it in to the paliment building
http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=232

“I should like to bring to your notice a semiautomatic attachment for service rifle, which I have perfected,” Charlton said when he appeared before the NZ Parliament and the Army to formally present his design in June of 1941. “...The almost complete absence of recoil enables the rifle to be fired from the side through a loop hole. It can be fired at arms length across the body. The attachment is very suitable for anti-aircraft work...” He went on to explain the fully automatic capability, as well
Immediate reaction from the political suits was nervous laughter. How was it possible to make a machine gun from an antique bolt action rifle? He was laughed out of the room, literally, by New Zealand’s prime minister and other parliament members.
However, Charlton was a design genius, had a working prototype, and knew if re-fitted rifles could keep back the horror of the Japanese, the Army was willing to listen and observe. They did so during Charlton’s second demonstration that fall.
According to John C. Osborne, a weapons adviser and researcher at the Queen Elizabeth II Army Memorial Museum in Waiouru, New Zealand, this second application, with a live demonstration, to army officials was conducted successfully in November 1941, with production to begin immediately.
Charlton had an Army contract for converting 1,500 of the Home Guard’s long magazine Lee Metf

You might be thinking of the Owen gun, but fairly sure that was an aussie bloke.
No i dont think it was ever went to production I am familar with the owen from the Sulivans in my childhood i think looked like a sten with the mag on top like a bren only curved they later did another home spun version they used up until the Steyr was issued

That will come as news to a generation of soldiers who did exactly that - and who remember the SLR fondly.
the rifle might be remembered fondly but not the times hit had to be lugged arround the jungle compared to the other options,they were not given, it was also bloody heavy on parade compared to the M16s


When the first round of licencing under Bank's regime finished, research could have been undertaken to see who had not renewed their licence and why. That would have required resources though, and none were made available so nothing was done.
An arms amnesty was announced, even though there was already an arms amnesty in progress at the time. And that was that.
More should have been done then, but at least they moved a lot of weapons up a few classes. the political will is often short lived.

Jason mentioned the bren, the 7.62mm chambered ones were still in service with the territorials in the late 80's to early 90's it was kind of odd really thr M16 and the slrs bother were at the same time plus they still had the 22 version of the LE for target shooting and parade Atc etc here at least.
No idea when or if they were taken out of service or just put into storage or just destroyed i doubt they were sold off like the SLR's were?

I found this 1600 Maxims were likely brought back to NZ after ww1 and about 100 remain
https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/108425884/military-gun-collector-reflects-on-a-killing-machine-which-changed-warfare

[Swoop]

... to owning a gun they never even needed in the first place.
You are sounding just like a few of those farmers / hunters down south, who say "you don't need"...

Firearms are like a set of golf clubs. You could play a game of golf with only one golf-bat, but you don't.
There are different types for different situations.

Same with firearms. Some inbread hillbilly with his cut down .303 that is used for pig hunting, has no concept of a time+accuracy discipline competition event or IPSC style competition.


Its well past the time you should have figured out why its a stand NZ as a whole is taking.
NZ is not taking a stand as a "whole". There are a LOT of unhappy people out there who are law-abiding citizens who are being punished for the illegal actions of a lunatic.

Similar to a boi-ricer killing someone in his suped-up subaru and inept government deciding to ban all subarus to prevent recurrence.

[husaberg]

You are sounding just like a few of those farmers / hunters down south, who say "you don't need"...

Firearms are like a set of golf clubs. You could play a game of golf with only one golf-bat, but you don't.
There are different types for different situations.

Same with firearms. Some inbread hillbilly with his cut down .303 that is used for pig hunting, has no concept of a time+accuracy discipline competition event or IPSC style competition.


NZ is not taking a stand as a "whole". There are a LOT of unhappy people out there who are law-abiding citizens who are being punished for the illegal actions of a lunatic.

Similar to a boi-ricer killing someone in his suped-up subaru and inept government deciding to ban all subarus to prevent recurrence.

Here is something you are clearly not aware of, you are in the minority in both have a gun licence owning a firearm and your opinion to what is needed or not.
You don't get a choice your opinion as its clearly self serving is not even taken into consideration.
Maybe you should share the situation where having a assault rifle is relevent in NZ.
Because even the most fervent gun supporter gan only offer for culling goats and other large game.
These "unhappy law abiding citizens" are the same that are now trying to find ways to get around the law who were already breaking the NZ law by purchasing large magazines and are now a talking about not complying with the law
So for you to describe them as law abiding is frankly hilarious.
PS the firearms that are now banned are not like golf clubs or cars , there sole purpose is to kill things.

Your privileges to own a large caliber semi auto on a A cat licence have been revoked, move on, get over it, get a high grade licence, or go to jail for illegally owning one, frankly i don't give a hoot what you do.
It's NZ law its the whole country that has take a stand aganst an minority of gun owners that want to own a gun they dont need in the first place.

As i said earlier

The change in NZ law is about lives, not money or some pathetic weapon you want to have for pose value or fun.
NZ doesn't have a right to bear arms in its constitution. Nor do you need a semi auto Military style assault rifle, you mealy want one.
People in NZ can still continue own a firearm as a privilege, to hunt with, as a hobby or sport or collecting.
But simply as a result of 50 innocent people getting killed recently in the mater of minutes by a total loser, you longer have that privilege anymore to own a military style semi Automatic anymore on a A cat licience.
Even one without a large mag or a buttstock that's modified in the effort to get around the no pistol-grip rule.
Its over.
For those that continue on moaning. Man up and face facts. ITS OVER.

Maybe before you reply type out the names of the 50 innocent people that died in CHCh and the 13 others at Aromoana , then add how much you feel you are inconvenienced by the new rules and how you still want to have your military style semi auto.
If you cant do that i are not going to take you seriously

[Laava]

No, I don't.

A Licence is functionally very different from the item that is licenced.
Not when it is taken off you by beauracracy. That was my point. Or did you just want the 5 min arguement?

[husaberg]

Not when it is taken off you by beauracracy. That was my point. Or did you just want the 5 min arguement?

I think you need to have a gander at the Stupid world thread hes losing a 50 page argument with Grey stone.
I think TDL shot his uncle Duke

[TheDemonLord]

Not when it is taken off you by beauracracy. That was my point. Or did you just want the 5 min arguement?

But the licence wasn't taken off you by Bureaucracy, was it?

There is still a mechanism to acquire said license.

Which was my point.

Also - how come you are arguing with me if I haven't paid?

[Laava]

Loser pays.
Yes, the lifetime license was taken off all of us and replaced with a 10yr renewable license. We had no say, your lifetime you were issued just got rescinded. Must have been before your time...

[husaberg]

Loser pays.
Yes, the lifetime license was taken off all of us and replaced with a 10yr renewable license. We had no say, your lifetime you were issued just got rescinded. Must have been before your time...

Same happened with the drivers licence as well, we just all put on out big boy pants and got on with it, I guess some pom immigrants, no one asked to move here, want to live in NZ yet not obey our laws. As they want to pretend to be be cheap imitations of American action movie stars. Or live out their video game fantasies.
Just to top it all off. Then they go on and act like they are law abiding citizens getting persecuted.
If it wasn't so tragic or hypocritical it would almost be fumy

[jasonu]

That was my point. Or did you just want the 5 min arguement?

There is no '5 min argument' with Husaberg. It can and will go on for months if you let it.

[TheDemonLord]

NZ is not taking a stand as a "whole". There are a LOT of unhappy people out there who are law-abiding citizens who are being punished for the illegal actions of a lunatic.

Similar to a boi-ricer killing someone in his suped-up subaru and inept government deciding to ban all subarus to prevent recurrence.

A more apt description would be banning all cars that have Alloy Wheels and Spoilers, as they are clearly race cars and should only be driven on a Race Track.

[husaberg]

There is no '5 min argument' with Husaberg. It can and will go on for months if you let it.

Small H Jason Small H. Yes i can go on for hours and hours, Some like that better than gone in 30 seconds.

[FJRider]

A more apt description would be banning all cars that have Alloy Wheels and Spoilers, as they are clearly race cars and should only be driven on a Race Track.

Funny you should say that ... I lived in Singapore for a few years in the early eighties. The ONLY modification you COULD legally make was fit alloy wheels ... :killingme


But ... many a true word has been said in jest. Be careful what you say ... I've heard stupider suggestions from some in Government ... :blank:

[Swoop]

Here is something you are clearly not aware of, you are in the minority...
This is NZ, where the minority (or an exceptionally small group) is overly represented... You should be well aware of this.


I take it you have read the order in council? I also wonder how many people have compared the police document being bandied around on "what is now law", which misleads the public in a very impressive manner. Shotguns are specifically NOT mentioned in the OiC, yet plod propaganda screams "register now!".

Now, for the cut & paste onslaught.

[husaberg]

This is NZ, where the minority (or an exceptionally small group) is overly represented... You should be well aware of this.


I take it you have read the order in council? I also wonder how many people have compared the police document being bandied around on "what is now law", which misleads the public in a very impressive manner. Shotguns are specifically NOT mentioned in the OiC, yet plod propaganda screams "register now!".

Now, for the cut & paste onslaught.

Majority rules.
The word semi auto and the word Shotgun covers the shot guns effected. As they are firearms.
Hint. You don’t get to override the people that enforce the gun laws.
You have consistently proven yourself to be unable to read and understand simple wording and documents
You are now flat out embarrassing yourself with you lack brainpower.

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2019/0055/latest/whole.html


3
Certain semi-automatic firearms declared to be military style semi-automatic firearms

For the purposes of the Arms Act 1983, the following firearms are declared to be military style semi-automatic firearms:
(a)
a semi-automatic firearm that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine (other than one designed to hold 0.22-inch or less rimfire cartridges) that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges:
(b)
a semi-automatic firearm that is a shotgun and that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges.


This note is not part of the order, but is intended to indicate its general effect.This order, which comes into force at 3 pm on 21 March 2019, declares the following firearms to be military style semi-automatic firearms:
a semi-automatic firearm that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine (other than one designed to hold 0.22-inch or less rimfire cartridges) that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges:
a semi-automatic firearm that is a shotgun and that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges.

Below the goverment and police took the time to explain what it meant.


“We have also acknowledged that some guns serve legitimate purposes in our farming communities, and have therefore set out exemptions for 0.22 calibre rifles and shotguns commonly used for duck hunting. These will have limitations around their capacity.


earlier this afternoon, an Order in Council under section 74A(c) of the Arms Act was signed by the Governor-General to reclassify a wider range of semi-automatic weapons under the Act. It came into effect at 3pm today.


2. What semi-automatic firearms will NOT be affected by the ban?
There is a balance to be struck between public safety and legitimate use. The changes exclude two general classes of firearms which are commonly used for hunting, pest control, stock management on farms, and duck shooting:
• Semi-automatic .22 calibre rimfire firearms with a magazine which holds no more than ten rounds
• Semi-automatic and pump action shotguns with a non-detachable tubular magazine which holds no more than five rounds
3. What semi-automatic firearms are affected by today’s Order in Council?
Two types of firearms are now defined as Military Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs):
• A semi-automatic firearm capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges
• A semi-automatic shotgun capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges

[TheDemonLord]

This is NZ, where the minority (or an exceptionally small group) is overly represented... You should be well aware of this.


I take it you have read the order in council? I also wonder how many people have compared the police document being bandied around on "what is now law", which misleads the public in a very impressive manner. Shotguns are specifically NOT mentioned in the OiC, yet plod propaganda screams "register now!".

Now, for the cut & paste onslaught.

If firearm owners were gay or confused about their gender, there would be no question from the left about the immorality of the Majority trying to force their standards on the Minority...

[OddDuck]

I'm with Husaberg on this one.

Owning a military style semi auto, if you're a civilian, just got a whole lot harder... and this is a GOOD THING. We need this. All of us, yes even you DemonLord.

Your right to tool up all tactical and have bang bang fun is small. The rest of us having a right to public safety is large. The gun lobby is going to lose. Good.

I quite like living in a society where I don't have to worry about random nutters carrying out rampages, don't you? Or at least it was like that until two weeks ago.

[pritch]

"3. What semi-automatic firearms are affected by today’s Order in Council?
Two types of firearms are now defined as Military Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs):
• A semi-automatic firearm capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges
• A semi-automatic shotgun capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges"

That's badly written. It covers rather more than was stated to be the intention. In the fullness of time...

[husaberg]

"3. What semi-automatic firearms are affected by today’s Order in Council?
Two types of firearms are now defined as Military Style Semi-Automatics (MSSAs):
• A semi-automatic firearm capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges
• A semi-automatic shotgun capable of being used with a detachable magazine which holds more than five cartridges"

That's badly written. It covers rather more than was stated to be the intention. In the fullness of time...

You need to read it with the bit that is above it.
What semi-automatic firearms will NOT be affected by the ban?
There is a balance to be struck between public safety and legitimate use. The changes exclude two general classes of firearms which are commonly used for hunting, pest control, stock management on farms, and duck shooting:
• Semi-automatic .22 calibre rimfire firearms with a magazine which holds no more than ten rounds
• Semi-automatic and pump action shotguns with a non-detachable tubular magazine which holds no more than five rounds.

Note how the orders covers shotguns, contrary to what swoops says they ARE CLEARLY COVERED.

READ IT YOURSELF HERE
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2019/0055/latest/whole.html

[pritch]

You need to read it with the bit that is above it.




I did read it, and it doesn't get any better. My concern is not something that has already been mentioned in this thread. Whoever wrote that was not knowledgeable about that which they wrote. Michael Webster signed it, he needs a kick up the arse. On the basis that we should not ascribe to malice that which can adequately be attributed to stupidity I'll leave it there.

Time will tell.

[husaberg]

I did read it, and it doesn't get any better. My concern is not something that has already been mentioned in this thread. Whoever wrote that was not knowledgeable about that which they wrote. Michael Webster signed it, he needs a kick up the arse. On the basis that we should not ascribe to malice that which can adequately be attributed to stupidity I'll leave it there.

Time will tell.

So whats you issue? all thats been done is extend the definition of what is a MSSA nothing else has been changed.

Certain semi-automatic firearms declared to be military style semi-automatic firearms.


For the purposes of the Arms Act 1983, the following firearms are declared to be military style semi-automatic firearms:
(a)a semi-automatic firearm that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine (other than one designed to hold 0.22-inch or less rimfire cartridges) that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges:
(b)a semi-automatic firearm that is a shotgun and that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges.

[pritch]

So whats you issue? all thats been done is extend the definition of what is a MSSA nothing else has been changed.

When reading legislation you can't just read what you think it means. You can't read what they might have meant. You have to read what is actually written, and what is written is not what we were told was intended.

That could either be a mistake or something more sinister.

Like I said, we'll see.

[husaberg]

When reading legislation you can't just read what you think it means. You can't read what they might have meant. You have to read what is actually written, and what is written is not what we were told was intended.

That could either be a mistake or something more sinister.

Like I said, we'll see.
Unlike say Swoop i have read it.
I don't believe it is anything but clear on what it means , Also what is the intent is nor do i see it is anything in it that is not exactly as it was described.
What is in there that makes you feel it was miss-described
What you need to bear i mind this reclassification only effects one class of licencee here.
But it more effects those that were selling materials such as magazines that changed the class of firearms.

No one is asking Tippet if he sold the large capacity magazines for the Ar15's used Hes certainly not saying he didn't sell them to the numbnuts.
The order of council only applies to A cat and to what is defined as a MSSA

[jafagsx250]

Think again, the gun licence system is already 50% propped up by the tax payer in NZ as it is.
The average of $12 a year is not enough.
Why does the tax payer need to support the gun licence costs and administration?
The right wing ideals of the NRA, are for user pays for bang bang.
Shooting in NZ is a recreational activity for 99.9% of the licence holders.



If its for a purely recreational activity for a small percentage of the population why would the greater proportion of tax payers want or be expected to fund it.
MNZ competition licences are not proped up by the government, nor are Cams licences for those you wish to race cars.
Or even for explosives licences they are user pays.
We have hunting agencies like fish and game that promote this.
Its the Same with DOC hunting permits



https://www.doc.govt.nz/parks-and-recreation/things-to-do/hunting/permits-and-licences/hunting-permit/






Please can someone put me straight on this?

My only semi-auto rifle is a cheap and nasty Norinco SKS (7.62 x 39), on a fancy Dragunov stock, telescopic sight, with bi-pod and magazines that only hold 5 rounds.

As it doesn't have a pistol grip and doesn't fire more than 7 shots, I consider this gun to still be legal for a CAT A licence holder?

No they will ban it too. Any centrefire semi automatic will not be allowed on an A license.


She did what any of us could have done, looked sincere & said a few things. Nothing I couldn't have pulled with plausibility, and punished all gun owners using the high emotion of the country as a platform.
She's had it served up on a platter to pander to the gullible once again.

Yup. Bodies weren't even cold and they decided to do it.


That will come as news to a generation of soldiers who did exactly that - and who remember the SLR fondly.

When the first round of licencing under Bank's regime finished, research could have been undertaken to see who had not renewed their licence and why. That would have required resources though, and none were made available so nothing was done.
An arms amnesty was announced, even though there was already an arms amnesty in progress at the time. And that was that.

The arms amnesty is always under broadcasted. Most people don't know their even is one.

The cops don't follow up on expired licenses now. Not neough resources.


This is NZ, where the minority (or an exceptionally small group) is overly represented... You should be well aware of this.


I take it you have read the order in council? I also wonder how many people have compared the police document being bandied around on "what is now law", which misleads the public in a very impressive manner. Shotguns are specifically NOT mentioned in the OiC, yet plod propaganda screams "register now!".

Now, for the cut & paste onslaught.

Yeah I have had to correct a fair few sjw about it. Pumps are also mentioned but by law but they are not banned or restricted in mag size.


I'm with Husaberg on this one.

Owning a military style semi auto, if you're a civilian, just got a whole lot harder... and this is a GOOD THING. We need this. All of us, yes even you DemonLord.

Your right to tool up all tactical and have bang bang fun is small. The rest of us having a right to public safety is large. The gun lobby is going to lose. Good.

I quite like living in a society where I don't have to worry about random nutters carrying out rampages, don't you? Or at least it was like that until two weeks ago.

Public safety won't be improved. Everywhere a ban has been put in place there has been huge amounts of gun crime.


Also funny how everyone says the gun lobby has no place in the debate. Hardly a debate without two sides. How are you going to get the technical information when gun grabbers know bugger all about them.

[husaberg]

No they will ban it too. Any centrefire semi automatic will not be allowed on an A license.



What do you base that on then because it says different. it only excluded ones with detachable mags capable of being fitted with a detachable mag that holds more than 5 shot mags.
Can you not read? or are you just trying to scare up some more paranoia?

(a)a semi-automatic firearm that is capable of being used in combination with a detachable magazine (other than one designed to hold 0.22-inch or less rimfire cartridges) that is capable of holding more than 5 cartridges:

[Katman]

Can you not read?

You're hardly in any position to question anyone else's ability to understand and communicate basic English.

[husaberg]

You're hardly in any position to question anyone else's ability to understand and communicate basic English.

Really what does the Arms (Military Style Semi-automatic Firearms) Order 2019 mean then?
Go on, hurl the full force of your mediocre intellect at it:killingme

[Katman]

Go on, hurl the full force of your mediocre intellect at it

I'm not the one hurling anything.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm with Husaberg on this one.

Owning a military style semi auto, if you're a civilian, just got a whole lot harder... and this is a GOOD THING. We need this. All of us, yes even you DemonLord.

Okay, Define 'Harder'.

I'm being very serious on this - Because the word from the Government is not 'Harder' but 'Impossible' (when read alongside accompanying statements). I'm not okay with this.

However, I am on board with increased oversight for the privilege of ownership. When you say Harder - I want you to ask yourself, what level of oversight would you accept where you would feel comfortable with Me retaining my legally purchased Firearms?

Yearly Mental Health checks?
Firearms register?
Additional Scrutiny in the application process?

I ask this question, because if the answer is 'nothing' - then you don't want 'Harder' do you? Then the followup question - presumably you are okay with the Police having access to Firearms, so I ask this:

The Police are humans, just like me - what is it specifically that they do that makes you feel safe with their ownership, that could not be extended to me?


Your right to tool up all tactical and have bang bang fun is small. The rest of us having a right to public safety is large. The gun lobby is going to lose. Good.

So you're okay with the increase in the cost of DoC, increased use of Poisons, destroying our sporting communities, ruining lawful businesses, The huge cost of a Buy Back (100-200 Million is laughably low, conservative estimates from the Firearms community put the value nearer a Billion dollars, with some putting the value closer to 2 Billion).

And for what? You say Public Safety - if you wanted to make a dent in Public safety here's a few things you should ban that Yearly kill far more people than Firearms, even IF we had a Christchurch Style massacre every year:

Cars.
Alcohol.
Tobacco.
Swimming.
DIY.

The attack that inspired the Terrorist was carried out with a Truck and killed more people in a Shorter space of time - are you wanting to Ban Trucks as well? What about Aircraft? Fertilizer? Knives? All of those have been used in Terrorist attacks that killed more people.

The reason I chose an AR was not because of it's 'tactical' nature - but because I'm new to Hunting, I didn't grow up on a Farm - I was working on bringing my Marksmanship up to par, but I wanted the insurance policy of being able to take a followup shot in case I merely wounded the Animal - so I decided on a Semi-Auto. Once I decided on a Semi-Auto, given the large aftermarket support, the AR was the clear choice for being able to customise it to my preference.


I quite like living in a society where I don't have to worry about random nutters carrying out rampages, don't you? Or at least it was like that until two weeks ago.

Then you should go live by yourself - Isolated from Society, since that is the only way to ensure that a Random Nutter won't go on a Rampage. The harsh reality is that any sufficiently motivated person WILL find a way to go on a Rampage - We've seen it in countries that Banned Firearms, so I ask you: If banning Firearms won't stop random nutters going on a Rampage, what is it that we should do?

[husaberg]

I'm not the one hurling anything.
I can see why you thought you might know something about the subject when i suggested his answer was to do with paranoia, But unfortunately that wasn't the subject.
It would be hard for you to be able to hurl your intellect, much akin to attempting throwing other lightweight objects such as feathers.
maybe, you might be better served sticking to subjects you have more experience and interest in, such as coprofilia.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/138538-If-I-could-take-a-dump

[OddDuck]

DemonLord - look, this is a total waste of my time, getting into an argument with you. You've got your mind made up. I can see that.

Check out something called Cognitive Bias - basically it's that trick in human psychology where if you've got an idea in your head, and other people argue against it, that idea gets more firmly embedded. Whatever the idea is. Could be right, could be wrong, doesn't matter. Argue against it and it gets set down good and hard.

Hence many many pages of back and forth shouting matches, on KB at least. Notice how just about nobody ever actually says something like Yeah Okay You've Got A Point around here? Instead they piss evening after evening away in front of a screen when they could be out having a life.

Look, what's said on KB ultimately doesn't matter. Right? This isn't Parliament is it? So they'll do what they're going to do, we'll live under it (whatever it turns out to be), and life will go on.

[TheDemonLord]

DemonLord - look, this is a total waste of my time, getting into an argument with you. You've got your mind made up. I can see that.

Check out something called Cognitive Bias - basically it's that trick in human psychology where if you've got an idea in your head, and other people argue against it, that idea gets more firmly embedded. Whatever the idea is. Could be right, could be wrong, doesn't matter. Argue against it and it gets set down good and hard.

Hence many many pages of back and forth shouting matches, on KB at least. Notice how just about nobody ever actually says something like Yeah Okay You've Got A Point around here? Instead they piss evening after evening away in front of a screen when they could be out having a life.

Look, what's said on KB ultimately doesn't matter. Right? This isn't Parliament is it? So they'll do what they're going to do, we'll live under it (whatever it turns out to be), and life will go on.

Then you missed the point...

You don't say you want to Ban, you say you want things to be Harder - what is (to you) an acceptable degree of hardness? Is there a hoop I could jump through where you would be okay with it?
You say you want Safety, but it seems more that you want the feeling of safety, as opposed to accepting that society is inherently Unsafe.

Consider this - Wanting to get rid of something that makes you feel unsafe: If you travel far enough down that road, You'll eventually meet the Terrorist.

[jasonu]

Here's a big fucking problem.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217785

It will mostly be only law abiding gun (soon to be former) owners that will hand in their weapons.
Most of the people that already have illegal weapons will still have them but don't worry because they only use guns in gang crime...

[husaberg]

Here's a big fucking problem.


It will mostly be only law abiding gun (soon to be former) owners that will hand in their weapons.
Most of the people that already have illegal weapons will still have them but don't worry because they only use guns in gang crime...

Judging by the rate US citizens shoot each other compared to NZ its the USA that has the "big f-ing problem."

look at the country you are living in the USA compared to canada, are the gangs ruling canadas streets?
All that is changed in NZ is a category of gun licence required to have certain firearms,, there is nothing to stop the gun owner getting the separate endorsement of the MSSA.
Note the firearm homicide rate in the USA is 50 times higher per 100,0000 people than NZ's one. Plus NZs rate has dropped significantly about 75% since the initial rambo style guns laws were introduced in the 1990's after Aromoana.
Yet Americas has increased each year. Why is Americans 6 times more likely to die in a firearm homicide than a Canadian?

[jasonu]

Judging by the rate US citizens shoot each other compared to NZ its the USA that has the "big f-ing problem."

look at the country you are living in the USA compared to canada, are the gangs ruling canadas streets?
All that is changed in NZ is a category of gun licence required to have certain firearms,, there is nothing to stop the gun ower getter the seperate endorsement of the MSSA.
Note the firearm homicide rate in the USA is 50 times higher per 100,0000 people than NZ's one. Plus NZs rate has dropped significantly about 75% since the initial rambo style guns laws were introduced in the 1990's after Aromoana.
Yet Americas has increased each year. Why is Americans 6 times more likely to die in a firearm homicide than a Canadian?

So it looks like you are fine with a bunch of coons running around with guns because 'they only use them in gang violence'.

[husaberg]

So it looks like you are fine with a bunch of coons running around with guns because 'they only use them in gang violence'.

Criminals will have illegal guns, they are criminals, they do illegal stuff.
Once the laws are made tough enough, the deterrent of years in prison will prevent it being a major issue
Its not the NZ gangs doing the mass shooting, it its people that have previously obtained legal weapon through legal means.

How come you ignored the other stuff.
Judging by the rate US citizens shoot each other compared to NZ its the USA that has the "big f-ing problem."

Look at the country you are living in the USA compared to canada, are the gangs ruling Canadian streets?
All that is changed in NZ is a category of gun licence required to have certain firearms,, there is nothing to stop the gun owner getting the separate endorsement of the MSSA.
Note the firearm homicide rate in the USA is 50 times higher per 100,0000 people than NZ's one. Plus NZs rate has dropped significantly about 75% since the initial rambo style guns laws were introduced in the 1990's after Aromoana.
Yet Americas has increased each year. Why is Americans 6 times more likely to die in a firearm homicide than a Canadian?

[Laava]

Here's a big fucking problem.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12217785

It will mostly be only law abiding gun (soon to be former) owners that will hand in their weapons.
Most of the people that already have illegal weapons will still have them but don't worry because they only use guns in gang crime...
Are you just posting here for the trolling, Mr State the obvious?

[OddDuck]

So it looks like you are fine with a bunch of coons running around with guns because 'they only use them in gang violence'.

JasonU, that sort of shit is exactly where Christchurch came from.

Look at your language. For fucks sake man. THINK.

[TheDemonLord]

http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2019/0125/latest/whole.html

Suppressors - Gone.
Calibres/Ammunition - Gone.
Sport Shooting - Gone.
Optics/Sights - Gone.

To all those who laughed and said 'Oh, this won't affect me', May I suggest you work on your submissions?

They want to Ban 'Military Calibres' - so .308, .223, 7.62, 5.56, .338, .303, .30-06, .30-30 - Gone.

What will the law abiding Kiwi Firearm owners be left with?

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=TheDemonLord;1131129146

What will the law abiding Kiwi Firearm owners be left with?[/QUOTE]

Slug guns and rude language unless you are in a gang.

[husaberg]

Slug guns and rude language unless you are in a gang.

Thats total crap nothing of what he said (and i did look) is actually true, Not a word of it is true. Not a word of his ravings is contained it the draft bill.

He makes claims yet produces zero evidence to back up what he says.
Example
MSSA or semi autos are not banned they are only illegal to be owned or purchased by someone with an A class licence.

What about licensed owners who have a professional reason for having a semi-automatic or another prohibited firearm?
There will be exemptions for specially licensed dealers, bona fide collectors, museum curators and firearms used during dramatic productions, as there are now. They must take steps to disable the weapon and follow other guidelines around security and safety.
Authorised pest controllers governed by s.100 of the Biosecurity Act may be permitted by Police to own a semi-automatic


Nowhere is the draft amendments is any certain caibre of ammunition banned.
Unless they are Semi Autos that fit restricted weapons.

a 223 bolt action is legal A 303 bolt action is legal as is 1 7mm bolt action as it a 308 bolt action.
Converting a AR10 or AR15 to bolt action is not legal or sound.


Prohibited ammunition will include certain types of military ammunition as defined by the Governor General through Order in Council. Examples could include armour piercing ammunition

or prohibited parts

Prohibited parts include any component of a prohibited firearm, or any component that can enable a firearm to be used as a semi-automatic or fully automatic weapon. Examples could include bump stocks, free-standing pistol grips and silencers.

Sport shooting is not banned
nor are scopes, only parts solely for the use in prohibited weapons are restricted.
the only surprise was the additional Semi autos included. no great loss people hunted without them hunting meant to be a sport not the means to slaughter all and sundry or make up for being a pis poor shot.

[TheDemonLord]

Thats total crap nothing of what he said (and i did look) is actually true, Not a word of it is true. Not a word of his ravings is contained it the draft bill.

It's interesting, that for someone who claims to have read it, he just says it's not true, doesn't actually provide any rebuttal. The response is more like a child sticking their fingers in their ears and saying 'I can't hear you'.

The problem is that the Wording is so Vague - The Part with 'Silencers' (Lawl!) does it mean a fully integral suppressed system (as some on Reddit seem to interpret as) is simply a Suppressor that can be fitted to a Semi-Auto (which is to mean ANY Suppressor).

Sport Shooting - Can the Illustrious Husaberg find an Exemption listed for Sport Shooting for owning a Semi-Auto? No? Well that means IPSC is now illegal.

They are looking to ban Military Calibres - which just so happen to be the most popular hunting rounds in New Zealand. All of the Calibres I listed are 'Military Calibres' in current service.

Optics - again, the wording is terrible - they may simply mean something like an AR-Style integrated Gasblock/Front sight, however, the way it is worded it could mean ANY Optic capable of being fitted to a Semi-Auto - which is Any Optic on the market.

The Airsoft guys have just had their sport pretty much shat on too.

[jafagsx250]

http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2019/0125/latest/whole.html

Suppressors - Gone.
Calibres/Ammunition - Gone.
Sport Shooting - Gone.
Optics/Sights - Gone.

To all those who laughed and said 'Oh, this won't affect me', May I suggest you work on your submissions?

They want to Ban 'Military Calibres' - so .308, .223, 7.62, 5.56, .338, .303, .30-06, .30-30 - Gone.

What will the law abiding Kiwi Firearm owners be left with?

The buy back will be in the billions. And will be a failure.

[husaberg]

The buy back will be in the billions. And will be a failure.

Really how do you figure that it will be billions they decide the price? ts a buyers market.:killingme
Anyway what value do you put on a human life compared to having a semi auto rifle you don't even need you just want to have to play bang bang with?
Whats that times value fifty?
Maybe you should write fifty letters to the victims families of the Chch massacre and tell them that gun control in NZ was just fine up until now and how pissed off you are about it changing.

[jafagsx250]

Really how do you figure that it will be billions they decide the price? ts a buyers market.:killingme
Anyway what value do you put on a human life compared to having a semi auto rifle you don't even need you just want to have to play bang bang with?
Whats that times value fifty?
Maybe you should write fifty letters to the victims families of the Chch massacre and tell them that gun control in NZ was just fine up until now and how pissed off you are about it changing.

If they are lying when they said that they would pay market rates prior to the ban then yes it is in the billions. And you can't buy back what you never owned.

I don't want to answer that emotionally charged question.

They're not in the right space for facts to be of use.

[TheDemonLord]

It took you all day to do that Edit?


Thats total crap nothing of what he said (and i did look) is actually true, Not a word of it is true. Not a word of his ravings is contained it the draft bill.

He makes claims yet produces zero evidence to back up what he says.
Example
MSSA or semi autos are not banned they are only illegal to be owned or purchased by someone with an A class licence.

That's not what I said -

Suppressors - Gone.
Calibres/Ammunition - Gone.
Sport Shooting - Gone.
Optics/Sights - Gone.

Now, seeing as you so kindly quoted the Legislation - "specially licensed dealers, bona fide collectors, museum curators and firearms used during dramatic productions, as there are now." - Can you point to where it states, in that sentance that Sport Shooting (Service Rifle, IPSC, etc.) is a reason for an Exemption?

You can't? Well, My Statement 'Sport Shooting - Gone.' is 100% correct then.

Next up:


Nowhere is the draft amendments is any certain caibre of ammunition banned.
Unless they are Semi Autos that fit restricted weapons.

"Military Ammunition" - That's a rather Nebulus term, some are interpreting it as Tracer or AP or API ammunition, but it's not defined in the Legislation - It's states that any "Military Ammunition" that is defined by the Order of Council. Which could include the Calibres I listed - as they are "Military Ammunition"


a 223 bolt action is legal A 303 bolt action is legal as is 1 7mm bolt action as it a 308 bolt action.
Converting a AR10 or AR15 to bolt action is not legal or sound.

They all fire "Military Ammunition".


or prohibited parts

That part is Laughable - An Example of something that could turn a Firearm into a Semi or fully automatic Firearm including a Silencer.

On what planet does a Silencer turn a Firearm into a Semi or Fully Automatic Firearm?


Sport shooting is not banned

The exemptions that allow for Cat-E ownership for the purpose of Sport Shooting have been revoked. Without this, the sport is, by proxy, Banned.


nor are scopes, only parts solely for the use in prohibited weapons are restricted.

Read it again:


in relation to a pistol or a restricted weapon, includes any thing, such as a butt, stock, magazine, silencer, or sight, that, although not essential for the discharge by a pistol or a restricted weapon of any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile, is designed, or intended to be, an integral part of the pistol or restricted weapon; and

A Sight is an Integral part of Any Firearm.
Any Sight can be fitted to Any restricted or Prohibited Firearm.
Therefore, ANY SIGHT IS NOW A PROHIBITED ITEM.

As for the Silencer - no Suppressor is an Integral part of a Firearm (unless you are including integrally suppressed BARRELS) - so why is it included? Well, that's the problem - since a Suppressor that fits onto a Semi-Auto ALSO fits onto a Bolt-action rifle - Guess what? It's now a Prohibited item


the only surprise was the additional Semi autos included. no great loss people hunted without them hunting meant to be a sport not the means to slaughter all and sundry or make up for being a pis poor shot.

No Great Loss? Apart from the Business this will ruin, Individuals that are Criminalised - I had a chat with my CEO today, he's got an Air-Rifle - his scope fits on my AR - guess what? He's now a Criminal according to this piss-poor legislation.

But worst of all - Not a single thing mentioned as to the application process that would have prevented this Terrorist attack if they were followed.

Online Referees are still okay.
Trans-Tasman Background checks still non-existent.
No Changes for the reporting to the Police that someone may no longer be a 'Fit and Proper person'
No Mental Health Checks required for Licencees.

[TheDemonLord]

Really how do you figure that it will be billions they decide the price? ts a buyers market.:killingme

Give me your house.
I'll pay you $5 for it.
If you don't sell it to me for $5, I'll come round with Firearms, haul you off to prison at Gunpoint, then take your house (for free) anyway.

Sounds good?
No?


Anyway what value do you put on a human life compared to having a semi auto rifle you don't even need you just want to have to play bang bang with?

So, you'll be advocating to Ban Swimming, Smoking, Alcohol, Cars, Trucks, DIY - As these all kill more people Annually than Semi-Autos ever have, even if we had a Terrorist attack ever year.


Maybe you should write fifty letters to the victims families of the Chch massacre and tell them that gun control in NZ was just fine up until now and how pissed off you are about it changing.

No one is saying it was fine - See the comments about Police Procedural issues, All the Firearm owners I've spoken to have also agreed that the loophole that allowed large capacity magazines to be purchased on an A-Cat licence was also a problem.

So how about you Fuck Off with your lies and misinformation eh?

[husaberg]

If they are lying when they said that they would pay market rates prior to the ban then yes it is in the billions. And you can't buy back what you never owned.

I don't want to answer that emotionally charged question.

They're not in the right space for facts to be of use.

You keep saying billions the Gun lobby itself says 500 million, my word, you must know more than them.
The government is paying compensation, its not a free for all, they are not going to pay the brand new value on the secondhand firearms.
I think you will find the victims families are in the exact place you would expect them to be when their family is killed by an idiot with a Semi auto and large capacity magazines.
You seem to think the people who died lives have no value, or your own freedom to own a semi automatic rifle is somehow more important than protecting innocent peoples lives.
Owning a firearm is not a right in NZ, Its a privilege, A privilege that due to the actions of a few, is now being partially revoked.
I think you wll find i you that needs a reality check, as you appear to be affected more by the possible loss of a hobby item than by, multiple other people losing their lives.
Tell me again, how the old gun laws were working well. Write out the fifty letters to the families of the victims, telling them, you feel the gun laws never needed to change.

[RDJ]

Tell me again, how the old gun laws were working well.

Well, lessee.

Govt Immigration ossifers let the evil lunatic in from Oz.

Govt Police ossifers vetted him and gave him a FAL.

Then - he broke the law, actually, many laws, on his murderous outing.

And this is the fault of law-abiding citizens how exactly?

[jasonu]

Well, lessee.

Govt Immigration ossifers let the evil lunatic in from Oz.

Govt Police ossifers vetted him and gave him a FAL.

Then - he broke the law, actually, many laws, on his murderous outing.

And this is the fault of law-abiding citizens how exactly?

But but but National.....

[Cosmik de Bris]

You seem to think the people who died lives have no value, or your own freedom to own a semi automatic rifle is somehow more important than protecting innocent peoples lives.


You're assuming here that these new laws will protect people, that may not be the case. These sort of mass murders are not common in NZ or Australia, 30 odd years between these events don't give a very good idea of how likely it is to happen again. If there is a next time it could be a bomb, truck, flame thrower, no amount of legislation will stop an extremist. There are a lot of barn doors closing in all of these events. If the next person uses a bomb then maybe fertiliser and diesel oil gets banned, that doesn't stop the next guy.

I'm not saying that the new laws aren't needed but that it will save innocent lives is not a good argument in my opinion.

Cheers

[husaberg]

Well, lessee.

Govt Immigration ossifers let the evil lunatic in from Oz.

Govt Police ossifers vetted him and gave him a FAL.

Then - he broke the law, actually, many laws, on his murderous outing.

And this is the fault of law-abiding citizens how exactly?

No slack gun laws and loopholes allowed the cretin to legally accumulate a multiple number of weapons ammunition and large capacity magazines that allowed him to kill people on a scale not seen before in NZ.
These are all things he couldn't have easily cheaply and legally accomplished in Aussie due to their much stricter gun laws.


But but but National.....
i know that shooters on rampages are that common in the US you dont even worry about them now, but National to their credit actually supports the moves.
Why is it Canada has such lower rate of shooting homicides than the US does, could it be the tougher gun laws actually work or are they just better people north of the boarder?


You're assuming here that these new laws will protect people, that may not be the case. These sort of mass murders are not common in NZ or Australia, 30 odd years between these events don't give a very good idea of how likely it is to happen again. If there is a next time it could be a bomb, truck, flame thrower, no amount of legislation will stop an extremist. There are a lot of barn doors closing in all of these events. If the next person uses a bomb then maybe fertiliser and diesel oil gets banned, that doesn't stop the next guy.
I'm not saying that the new laws aren't needed but that it will save innocent lives is not a good argument in my opinion.
Cheers
There are a lot of loopholes closing and there is ample evidence to show that these style of gun laws are safer for the public.
I think you will find there are controls on the types of nitrate fertilizer used in making explosives in NZ there has been for a large number of years.
Canada vs USA
13x lower gun homicide rate is pretty significant.
Our laws laws as they were were rediculas in that higher capacity mags were not to be used in the ar15s SKS and so forth but they were still allowed to be sold to A cat licence holders.
While the gun law changes wont totally eliminate a risk it will minimize it as best as it can.
Like i said firearm ownership is a privilege in NZ not a right.

AS for the Demon lords latest outburst
you are talking bollocks
post the written rules for your claims

[pritch]

The latest version of the Arms Act is stated as being to protect people. The original farearms laws in this country were to protect the politicians. Following the Russian revolution in 1917, the government thought they had better introduce controls on firearms in 1918 in case somebody here decided revolution was a good idea. Of course they had grossly underestimated the apathy of their countrymen.

[TheDemonLord]

AS for the Demon lords latest outburst
you are talking bollocks
post the written rules for your claims

I did...

You even posted some of them yourself.

But don't let reality get in the way of your Narrative.

[TheDemonLord]

Well, lessee.

Govt Immigration ossifers let the evil lunatic in from Oz.

Govt Police ossifers vetted him and gave him a FAL.

Then - he broke the law, actually, many laws, on his murderous outing.

And this is the fault of law-abiding citizens how exactly?

Point of Order - 'Vetting' where he used Referees that only knew him from a Web Forum, and the Trans-Tasman checks are still not a thing...

[TheDemonLord]

You keep saying billions the Gun lobby itself says 500 million, my word, you must know more than them.

It's really important to know when statements were made...

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/firearm-buyback-scheme-could-cost-500m-twice-governments-estimate-lobbyist-group-says

That was before the new laws were suggested.

It was made under the assumption that Current E-cat holders wouldn't be affected, All the components that could be attached to a Semi-Auto weren't included - The point is: Our Government (just like the Aussie Goverment - oh how quickly people fail to make that comparison when it doesn't suit) is significantly underestimating the cost.

[Scubbo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FObVW2abE68

[husaberg]

It's really important to know when statements were made...

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/firearm-buyback-scheme-could-cost-500m-twice-governments-estimate-lobbyist-group-says

That was before the new laws were suggested.

It was made under the assumption that Current E-cat holders wouldn't be affected, All the components that could be attached to a Semi-Auto weren't included - The point is: Our Government (just like the Aussie Goverment - oh how quickly people fail to make that comparison when it doesn't suit) is significantly underestimating the cost.

I am breaking my own rules here but here is a clue

amend the provisions in the principal Act relating to endorsements. Currently an endorsement is required to a firearms licence to enable the licence holder to possess any pistol, restricted weapon, or military style semi-automatic firearm. The amendments replace the references to a military style semi-automatic firearm with references to a prohibited firearm and prohibited magazine. Before making an endorsement, a member of the Police must be satisfied that the applicant is a fit and proper person to be in possession of a prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine, and that it is necessary for the applicant, in their capacity as an exempt person, to have possession of the prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine. Additional criteria apply in respect of exempt persons described in new section 4A(d) to (g). Endorsements are subject to conditions, including that the holder of the firearms licence must possess and use the prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine solely in their capacity as an exempt person.

Clauses 34 to 36 relate to permits to possess a pistol, restricted weapon, or military style semi-automatic firearm. References to a military style semi-automatic firearm are removed from section 35 of the principal Act and a new section 35A is inserted dealing specifically with the issue of a permit to possess a specific prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine. The permit requirements for possessing a prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine are the same as those that currently apply for a military style semi-automatic firearm. A person will need to either have a dealer’s licence or have an endorsement on their firearms licence authorising possession of that category of prohibited item. In either case, the person will also need a permit to possess the specific prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine.


Eight new offences are inserted, as follows:
new section 16(4) provides that it is an offence to import prohibited firearms, prohibited magazines, and prohibited parts without a permit (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years):
new section 43AA provides that it is an offence to possess, sell, or supply prohibited ammunition (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years):
new sections 44A and 44B provide that it is an offence to knowingly supply or sell a prohibited item to a person who does not hold a permit to import or a permit to possess (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years for a prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine, or 2 years for a prohibited part):
new section 50A provides that it is an offence to unlawfully possess a prohibited firearm (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years):
new section 50B provides that it is an offence to unlawfully possess a prohibited magazine (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years):
new section 50C provides that it is an offence to unlawfully possess a prohibited part (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years):
new section 55A provides that it is an offence to assemble a prohibited firearm or to convert a firearm into a prohibited firearm (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years):
new section 55B provides that it is an offence to fail to produce a pistol, restricted weapon, prohibited firearm, or prohibited magazine if requested by a member of the Police, or to fail to permit an inspection of it, or of the place where it is kept (punishable by imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 months, or a fine not exceeding $1,000, or both).


Persons who may apply to import, sell, supply, and possess prohibited items
(1)Only the following persons may apply to import, sell, supply, or possess a prohibited item in accordance with the provisions of this Act and in their capacity as—
(a)a licensed dealer:
(b)a bona fide collector of firearms:
(c)a director or curator of a bona fide museum:
(d)an approved person or approved member referred to in section 29(2)(e):
(e)a person who is employed or engaged by the Department of Conservation and involved in the killing or hunting of wild animals or animal pests in accordance with a specified Act:
(f)a person who is the holder of a concession granted by the Minister of Conservation to undertake wild animal recovery operations in accordance with a specified Act:
(g)a person who is employed or engaged by a management agency (as defined in section 100 of the Biosecurity Act 1993) and involved in the killing or hunting of wild animals or animal pests in accordance with that Act.
(2)In subsection (1)(e) and (f), specified Act means—
(a)the Wildlife Act 1953:
(b)the Wild Animal Control Act 1977:
(c)the Conservation Act 1987:
(d)the Biosecurity Act 1993.

1)
An exempt person of or over the age of 18 years, and who is a holder of a firearms licence or is applying for a firearms licence, may apply for an endorsement on their licence permitting them to possess a prohibited firearm or prohibited magazine in their capacity as an exempt person.
As for prohibited parts

2C Meaning of prohibited part
In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, prohibited part means—
(a)a part of a prohibited firearm:
(b)a component that can be applied to enable, or take significant steps towards enabling, a firearm to be fired with, or near to, a semi-automatic or automatic action.


Now if you cant figure out this there is nothing i can do to help you.
There is also nothing in the draft bill that outlaws any calibre of weapon that complies with the rules.
If you wish to make further outrageous claims, cite the rule as to why you think it means something, because its clear you are behaving in such a hysterical manner.
None of what you have posted is actually contained in the wording of the draft bill
If you fail to do this then launch on another gish gallop and rant of false equivalents that are meaningless to what is in the act you will go straight back on ignore.

[TheDemonLord]

I am breaking my own rules here but here is a clue

Now if you cant figure out this there is nothing i can do to help you.
There is also nothing in the draft bill that outlaws any calibre of weapon that complies with the rules.
If you wish to make further outrageous claims site the rule as to why you think it means something, because its clear you are behaving in such a hysterical manner.

So, you've confirmed - Sport shooting is no longer a valid reason for owning an MSSA - which will Destroy that sport. I'm therefore 100% correct on that.

Next up:


In section 2(1), replace the definition of part with:

part—
(a)

in relation to a pistol or a restricted weapon, includes any thing, such as a butt, stock, magazine, silencer, or sight, that, although not essential for the discharge by a pistol or a restricted weapon of any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile, is designed, or intended to be, an integral part of the pistol or restricted weapon; and
(b)

in relation to a prohibited firearm, includes any thing, such as a butt, stock, magazine (other than a prohibited magazine), silencer, or sight, that although not essential for the discharge by the prohibited firearm of any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile, is designed, or intended to be, an integral part of the prohibited firearm; and
(c)

in relation to any other firearm, means the action for that firearm and for any firearm that has upper and lower receivers, includes the upper receiver and lower receiver, whether together or individually; and
(d)

in relation to any firearm, includes any thing, such as bolt carrier group parts, trigger group parts, lower parts kits, barrel, gas block, gas tube, folding or telescoping stock, magazine loader, sub-calibre conversion kits, and carbine stock

Now, given how it is worded - that could be ANY Suppressor or Sight that is capable of being attached to a Semi-Auto (aka a Prohibited Firearm), which means ANY Suppressor or Sight.

So, Suppressors and Optics are now a Prohibited Part. I'm therefore 100% correct on that.

Finally:


Order in Council relating to definitions of prohibited firearm, prohibited magazine, and prohibited ammunition

The Governor-General may, by Order in Council made on the recommendation of the Minister,—
(a)

amend or replace the description in section 2A of a semi-automatic firearm (except a pistol) or pump action shotgun that is a prohibited firearm:
(b)

amend or replace the description in section 2B of a magazine that is a prohibited magazine:
(c)

declare any semi-automatic firearm (except a pistol) or pump-action shotgun of a stated name or description to be a prohibited firearm for the purposes of this Act:
(d)

declare any magazine of a stated name or description to be a prohibited magazine for the purposes of this Act:
(e)

declare any ammunition to be prohibited ammunition for the purposes of this Ac

This has been updated - the first draft wording stated 'Military Ammunition':


Prohibited ammunition will include certain types of military ammunition as defined by the Governor General through Order in Council. Examples could include armour piercing ammunition.

Certain types of Military Ammunition is an exceptionally broad term - and could include the venerable 7.62/5.56 - which are some of the most popular calibres in NZ.

If they've changed it, then fair enough - but the fact is, that WAS what was in the first Draft.

[husaberg]

So, you've confirmed - Sport shooting is no longer a valid reason for owning an MSSA - which will Destroy that sport. I'm therefore 100% correct on that.

Next up:



Now, given how it is worded - that could be ANY Suppressor or Sight that is capable of being attached to a Semi-Auto (aka a Prohibited Firearm), which means ANY Suppressor or Sight.

So, Suppressors and Optics are now a Prohibited Part. I'm therefore 100% correct on that.

Finally:



This has been updated - the first draft wording stated 'Military Ammunition':



Certain types of Military Ammunition is an exceptionally broad term - and could include the venerable 7.62/5.56 - which are some of the most popular calibres in NZ.

If they've changed it, then fair enough - but the fact is, that WAS what was in the first Draft.


Try again back i have never confirmed anything you said in fact i did the opposite.
Sport shooting of any kind is not mentioned in the law.
I am not interested in what you think i am only interesting in educating you what the rules actually say

As for

now, given how it is worded - that could be ANY Suppressor or Sight that is capable of being attached to a Semi-Auto (aka a Prohibited Firearm), which means ANY Suppressor or Sight.


this is incorrect if you read on further it clarifies the intent.

is designed, or intended to be, an integral part of the prohibited firearm

As clearly all silencers or all scopes are clearly not designed to be a integral part of a prohibited weapon you are 100% wrong. if you cant understand, this i cant help you.

You either post the clause in full for each claim you make or i will put you back on ignore, its that simple.

I am not interested in your hysterical machinations on what you think could be, when it is clear, what is in the rules.

Simply put Point to the rules for all you have claimed, such as the banning of all military caibres, the banning of optics, the banning of sport shooting.

[jafagsx250]

It took you all day to do that Edit?



That's not what I said -


Now, seeing as you so kindly quoted the Legislation - "specially licensed dealers, bona fide collectors, museum curators and firearms used during dramatic productions, as there are now." - Can you point to where it states, in that sentance that Sport Shooting (Service Rifle, IPSC, etc.) is a reason for an Exemption?

You can't? Well, My Statement 'Sport Shooting - Gone.' is 100% correct then.

Next up:



"Military Ammunition" - That's a rather Nebulus term, some are interpreting it as Tracer or AP or API ammunition, but it's not defined in the Legislation - It's states that any "Military Ammunition" that is defined by the Order of Council. Which could include the Calibres I listed - as they are "Military Ammunition"



They all fire "Military Ammunition".



That part is Laughable - An Example of something that could turn a Firearm into a Semi or fully automatic Firearm including a Silencer.

On what planet does a Silencer turn a Firearm into a Semi or Fully Automatic Firearm?



The exemptions that allow for Cat-E ownership for the purpose of Sport Shooting have been revoked. Without this, the sport is, by proxy, Banned.



Read it again:



A Sight is an Integral part of Any Firearm.
Any Sight can be fitted to Any restricted or Prohibited Firearm.
Therefore, ANY SIGHT IS NOW A PROHIBITED ITEM.

As for the Silencer - no Suppressor is an Integral part of a Firearm (unless you are including integrally suppressed BARRELS) - so why is it included? Well, that's the problem - since a Suppressor that fits onto a Semi-Auto ALSO fits onto a Bolt-action rifle - Guess what? It's now a Prohibited item



No Great Loss? Apart from the Business this will ruin, Individuals that are Criminalised - I had a chat with my CEO today, he's got an Air-Rifle - his scope fits on my AR - guess what? He's now a Criminal according to this piss-poor legislation.

But worst of all - Not a single thing mentioned as to the application process that would have prevented this Terrorist attack if they were followed.

Online Referees are still okay.
Trans-Tasman Background checks still non-existent.
No Changes for the reporting to the Police that someone may no longer be a 'Fit and Proper person'
No Mental Health Checks required for Licencees.

Yup. Useful reform will never happen. Police too fixated on the most law abiding section of society.


You keep saying billions the Gun lobby itself says 500 million, my word, you must know more than them.
The government is paying compensation, its not a free for all, they are not going to pay the brand new value on the secondhand firearms.
I think you will find the victims families are in the exact place you would expect them to be when their family is killed by an idiot with a Semi auto and large capacity magazines.
You seem to think the people who died lives have no value, or your own freedom to own a semi automatic rifle is somehow more important than protecting innocent peoples lives.
Owning a firearm is not a right in NZ, Its a privilege, A privilege that due to the actions of a few, is now being partially revoked.
I think you wll find i you that needs a reality check, as you appear to be affected more by the possible loss of a hobby item than by, multiple other people losing their lives.
Tell me again, how the old gun laws were working well. Write out the fifty letters to the families of the victims, telling them, you feel the gun laws never needed to change.

They are banning parts. And all Semis. There's hundreds of thousands of them out there. And all the parts.

If they want them they'll have it pay what they were worth before the shooting. It'll be an astronomical amount.

They did work. The cops fucked up big time like last time in 1990. The magazine law was stupid. All Semis apart from the 4 round mag capacity hunting rifles should have been on E.

I would if I had their addresses. And if social justice warriors didn't try to crucify me.


I am breaking my own rules here but here is a clue







As for prohibited parts



Now if you cant figure out this there is nothing i can do to help you.
There is also nothing in the draft bill that outlaws any calibre of weapon that complies with the rules.
If you wish to make further outrageous claims, cite the rule as to why you think it means something, because its clear you are behaving in such a hysterical manner.
None of what you have posted is actually contained in the wording of the draft bill
If you fail to do this then launch on another gish gallop and rant of false equivalents that are meaningless to what is in the act you will go straight back on ignore.

The order in council can state whatever they want as prohibited ammunition. 308 Winchester and 223 Remington are slightly different to 7.62 nato and 5.56 nato. But would be banned if they chose to.


Try again back i have never confirmed anything you said in fact i did the opposite.
Sport shooting of any kind is not mentioned in the law.
I am not interested in what you think i am only interesting in educating you what the rules actually say

As for



this is incorrect if you read on further it clarifies the intent.

As clearly all silencers or all scopes are clearly not designed to be a integral part of a prohibited weapon you are 100% wrong. if you cant understand, this i cant help you.

You either post the clause in full for each claim you make or i will put you back on ignore, its that simple.

I am not interested in your hysterical machinations on what you think could be, when it is clear, what is in the rules.

Simply put Point to the rules for all you have claimed, such as the banning of all military caibres, the banning of optics, the banning of sport shooting.

Sport shooting exclusively uses semi automatic rifles. As opposed to limited uses of bolt actions.

You know stuff all about guns. Otherwise you'd have known this. And why would we want to be "educated" by a gun grabber. When all you seem to want to do is take them away as opposed to thinking of what will actually work.

[TheDemonLord]

Try again back i have never confirmed anything you said in fact i did the opposite.
Sport shooting of any kind is not mentioned in the law.

No shit Fuckwit - That means it's not a valid reason for Exemption. Since Sport shooting uses Semi-Autos, It is now Banned.





As for

this is incorrect if you read on further it clarifies the intent.

As clearly all silencers or all scopes are clearly not designed to be a integral part of a prohibited weapon you are 100% wrong. if you cant understand, this i cant help you.

All Sights are an Integral Part of a Firearm. They are also designed to be part of a Prohibited Weapon (Common Mounting options are a thing). So because of Sloppy wording it covers all Sights/Optics.

As for Suppressors (Silencers only exist in the Movies...) There are none that are Integral, unless you mean integrally suppressed Barrels - which is a little bit different. Again, Sloppy Wording by including a part that is not Integral into the list of Integral parts has opened up the clause to some extremely broad interpretation.


You either post the clause in full for each claim you make or i will put you back on ignore, its that simple.

I am not interested in your hysterical machinations on what you think could be, when it is clear, what is in the rules.

Simply put Point to the rules for all you have claimed, such as the banning of all military caibres, the banning of optics, the banning of sport shooting.

I did. I've acknowledged that the act now no-longer says 'Military Calibres' (The internet is a wonderful thing, that has a long memory), however the fact that with an Undemocratic process ANY Ammunition can be rendered prohibited (And that could mean all Ammunition of a Calibre) then it still stands.

The rest, is simply for you to Read. By no longer allowing Sport Shooting as a reason for owning a Cat-E rifle, the Sport is, by proxy, Banned.
By stating Sights as an Integral part of a prohibited Firearm, they have (through sloppy wording) banned Optics/Sights - unless they amend the legislation to clarify what they mean. I suspect they simply mean something like an AR front-post sight/gasblock - but that's not what they've said.

[husaberg]

No shit Fuckwit - That means it's not a valid reason for Exemption. Since Sport shooting uses Semi-Autos, It is now Banned.

All Sights are an Integral Part of a Firearm. They are also designed to be part of a Prohibited Weapon (Common Mounting options are a thing). So because of Sloppy wording it covers all Sights/Optics.

As for Suppressors (Silencers only exist in the Movies...) There are none that are Integral, unless you mean integrally suppressed Barrels - which is a little bit different. Again, Sloppy Wording by including a part that is not Integral into the list of Integral parts has opened up the clause to some extremely broad interpretation.



I did. I've acknowledged that the act now no-longer says 'Military Calibres' (The internet is a wonderful thing, that has a long memory), however the fact that with an Undemocratic process ANY Ammunition can be rendered prohibited (And that could mean all Ammunition of a Calibre) then it still stands.

The rest, is simply for you to Read. By no longer allowing Sport Shooting as a reason for owning a Cat-E rifle, the Sport is, by proxy, Banned.
By stating Sights as an Integral part of a prohibited Firearm, they have (through sloppy wording) banned Optics/Sights - unless they amend the legislation to clarify what they mean. I suspect they simply mean something like an AR front-post sight/gasblock - but that's not what they've said.
Hes adds the hysterical abusive childlike idiot back to ignore.
Not only does TDL claim to know more about security than the FBI
More about the US law than a Supreme court Judge.
he now knows more about the law and legel jargon and meaning than the lawyers who drafted the Bill.
He knows more about legal gun parts than a NZ gun shop
https://www.guncity.com/firearm-accessories/silencers
https://www.guncity.com/?q=sights
Thats impressive.
Plus even when hes wrong and cleary proven wrong he will stll incessantly argue on regardless.


http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2019/0125/latest/whole.html
Suppressors - Gone.
Calibres/Ammunition - Gone.
Sport Shooting - Gone.
Optics/Sights - Gone.
To all those who laughed and said 'Oh, this won't affect me', May I suggest you work on your submissions?
They want to Ban 'Military Calibres' - so .308, .223, 7.62, 5.56, .338, .303, .30-06, .30-30 - Gone.
What will the law abiding Kiwi Firearm owners be left with?


As Mrs Brown would say "thats nice"
GO on back to making up and posting more shit that i or indeed other people have not not or insinuated. to attempt to strengthen your obvious ill -informed and incorrect position, Katman style.........

[TheDemonLord]

Hes adds the hysterical abusive childlike idiot back to ignore.
Not only does TDL claim to know more about security than the FBI
More about the US law than a Supreme court Judge.
he now knows more about the law and legel jargon and meaning than the lawyers who drafted the Bill.
Thats impressive.
Plus even when hes wrong and cleary proven wrong he will stll incessantly argue on regardless.
As Mrs Brown would say "thats nice"

Where have you proven me wrong? You've quoted the Legislation and Acknowledged that there is no exemption for Sport shooting. That's proving me right.
Lawyers know Legal Jargon, but clearly they don't know shit about Firearms. See how they refer to 'Silencers' as integral, or the part where a 'silencer' can turn a Rifle into a Semi or Fully Automatic rifle.

The reason for Silencer vs Suppressor is because it doesn't 'Silence' the firearm, it only 'Suppresses' the sound.

Suppressor: "The technical definition for a firearm suppression device"

Here's your chance - if you can post a 'Silencer' that makes a Rifle into either a Semi or full auto rifle - I'll concede the point and admit your superior knowledge on all things Firearms.

[husaberg]

Man jailed for selling guns to gang
6:13 pm on 25 July 2014
An Auckland man who spent $50,000 on rifles and shotguns he modified and passed onto gang members has been sent to prison for nearly six years.
Peter Edwards was sentenced in the Auckland District Court on Friday to five years and 10 months on firearms charges, as well as charges of supplying methamphetamine.
Judge Nevin Dawson said Edwards, who had a firearms licence, bought .22 calibre rifles as well as shotguns from a gun shop before cutting them down and adding pistol grips.
He supplied them to members of the Head Hunters gang
Edwards was caught when police noticed a trend of Headhunters gang members being caught with guns modified in the same way, usually cut down with pistol grips.
Some of the rifles also had barrells threaded so silencers could be attached and all the guns had their serial numbers filed off.
Police later arrested a gang member who was found with a shotgun they could trace back to Edwards.
Judge Dawson said Edwards spent $50,000 on 72 guns and 67 of them came from the one shop, Gun City.
Edwards was caught when police noticed a trend of Headhunters gang members being caught with guns modified in the same way, usually cut down with pistol grips.
Some of the rifles also had barrells threaded so silencers could be attached and all the guns had their serial numbers filed off.
Police later arrested a gang member who was found with a shotgun they could trace back to Edwards.
Judge Dawson said Edwards spent $50,000 on 72 guns and 67 of them came from the one shop, Gun City.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/250617/man-jailed-for-selling-guns-to-gang


Firearm importers prepare for court battle with police over over semi-automatic rifles
12:45, Jul 20 2018
An AR15 with a free-standing pistol grip, or a larger magazine, is deemed a military style semi-automatic rifle (MSSA) and requires the more rigorously inspected "E-Cat" firearm licence.
Tipple's lawyer, Nicholas Taylor, said police refused the importation of AR15 rifles able to be purchased with a standard licence, arguing the rifles were "born as MSSAs".
Dealers elsewhere had received a similar notification from police, he said.
"You have a rifle that's coming from overseas, which doesn't actually have any of the features that define it as an MSSA, and the police have just decided not to apply the definition of that firearm – that is under the Arms Act – to it."
Firearm retailer Ken Rountree, owner of NZAR15, is also contemplating court action after having an import application denied.
"We submitted our permits as per what we'd done in the past ... we'll know more in the next few days exactly what game the police are playing."
Council of Licenced Firearms Owners (COLFO) chairman Paul Clark said the distinction between standard rifles and MSSAs was a "murky area" where frustrations were coming to a head.
He expected there would be others pondering court action, and it had been suggested COLFO seek a judicial review.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105577890/firearm-importers-prepare-for-court-battle-with-police-over-over-semiautomatic-rifles



Police call for back-up after Gun City owner David Tipple pulled over doing 177km/h 7 Nov, 2016 5:03pm
The police officer would later say that in 23 years of policing, Tipple "would have been one of worst people he's ever dealt with".
An experienced police officer who pulled over Gun City owner David Tipple after he was clocked speeding at 177km/h claims the millionaire was so confrontational that he called for back-up, a court heard yesterday.
Tipple, 61, had been travelling through Central Otago on April 8 this year when a member of the public phoned police to complain about his driving.
The gun dealer was stopped by police near Twizel and "essentially warned", Christchurch District Court heard.
But after being sent on his way, another police constable clocked Tipple's Audi car travelling near the Lindis Pass at 181km/h.
He referred to Tipple being convicted for driving at dangerous speed in 1982; driving in a dangerous manner in 1980; driving in a dangerous manner and failing to stop for police in 1989; and in 2008 driving recklessly and failing to stop for police. He also alluded to a "smattering" of other convictions both in New Zealand and overseas.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11743823

Only Mp that doesnt support Firemearm Bill was too busy taking it up to the media and misses the vote.


"Poor David, he made an absolute fool of himself," Ms Bennett said

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSLaew2qSdQ https://www.facebook.com/NewshubNZ/videos/418759835549399/

[jasonu]

The way it is written looks like they hired the same dickhead that writes the MNZ rules. Poorly worded with lots of vagaries and plenty of room for misinterpretations. As for the buy back, firearms hold their value really well as long as you look after them. My AR15 was $1k 5 years ago and will still sell used for $850 all day long. You will be lucky to see a grand for your mint condition DPMS AR10 you paid $3k for.
All bought to you by the waste of space labour band of morons. The same lot that promised 1000 affordable homes and delivered less than 50. They are lucky that National are even more useless then them and the only MP that had the balls to vote against the new legislation was too useless to show up in time for the vote. What a joke.

[FJRider]

Poorly worded with lots of vagaries and plenty of room for misinterpretations.

Misinterpretation by whom ... Law enforcement or the average firearms owner .. ???


As for the buy back, firearms hold their value really well as long as you look after them. My AR15 was $1k 5 years ago and will still sell used for $850 all day long. You will be lucky to see a grand for your mint condition DPMS AR10 you paid $3k for.

[jasonu]

Misinterpretation by whom ... Law enforcement or the average firearms owner .. ???

Both. If it is law it should be written water tight or at least close to it. This is far from that standard.

[TheDemonLord]

Misinterpretation by whom ... Law enforcement or the average firearms owner .. ???

Do you remember the High Court case over the Police re-interpreting what a Thumbhold Stock was? Cause I do, so it's not like there isn't some precedent here.

[husaberg]

Both. If it is law it should be written water tight or at least close to it. This is far from that standard.

Loopholes in the rules is what allowed the Ar15's and other in here that were supposed to be originally banned.
All the did was issue them compliant mags and altered the stocks with the plastic loop to enclose the trigger.

the loopholes the gunshop exploited was they also sold the large mags as anyone could purchase those as well no questions asked.
Yet not one of you critised the loopholes in the laws then.
https://www.guncity.com/function/image/171549%20width=https://www.guncity.com/public/img/site/guncity-com/m/223-sa-134-223-american-tactical-ar-15-omni-hybrid-maxx-p-3-e-with-quad-rail-16-barrel-223-sa-134-07-222295.jpg
Anyone who purchased these knew they were exploiting a loophole in the law.
They did so, not for freedom of choice or honorable means they did it to make more money they never cared less what the outcome would be.
IF you wanted to get a E cat licience previously to legally own a MSSA for fun or target shooting was not deemed a valid reason by the assessors
its also a draft bill, but unfortunately for the few decenters against the change it has bipartisan support there is only one MP likely to vote against it.
There is no such thing as water tight rules and laws if that was the case we would have seen your president trumps Tax returns by now.

[TheDemonLord]

Loopholes in the rules is what allowed the Ar15's and other in here that were supposed to be originally banned.
All the did was issue them compliant mags and altered the stocks with the plastic loop to enclose the trigger.

the loopholes the gunshop exploited was they also sold the large mags as anyone could purchase those as well no questions asked.
Anyone who purchased these knew they were exploiting a loophole in the law.
They did so not for fredom of choice or honorable means they did it to make more money they never cared less what the outcome would be.
IF you wanted to get a E cat licience previously to legally own a MSSA for fun or target shooting was not deemed a valid reason by the assessors
its also a draft bill, but unfortunately for the few decenters against the change it has bipartisan support there is only one MP likely to vote against it.
There is no such thing as water tight rules and laws if that was the case we would have seen your president trumps Tax returns by now.

And now it's Husaberg that knows more than the Police, the NZ Highcourt and the Firearms community....

Also for added lols: COLFO agree with me that the wording of the proposed legislation could make every firearm illegal:


"The current wording of the legislation that came out yesterday said that anybody in possession of a sight for a firearm, a butt, is going to have a prohibited part. Every firearm has a sight on it, so we’ll all be made criminals if this goes through in its current form."

For more added lols on Sport shooting:


Deerstalkers Association spokesperson Bill O'Leary said quite a few of its members were competition shooters and the proposed ban would spell the end of those events.

For extra Added Lols (GunsNZ CEO):


He said he believed the $100 to $200 million estimate for the cost of the buy back was way too low, estimating it could cost the government up to $1.5 billion.

Que some serious Ironing.

[husaberg]

And now it's Husaberg that knows more than the Police, the NZ Highcourt and the Firearms community....
No i know what loopholes were there and how the police wanted them shut and were constantly challenging the importation of AR15's
i also know as well as you do that a a cat licence holder could purchase alternate large capacity mags for a AR15. if you cant see and admit that is a loophole you are even dimmer than i expected.

Also for added lols: COLFO agree with me that the wording of the proposed legislation could make every firearm illegal:
Really, the leader of a gun lobby doesnt like the rules that's incredible,but unlike you he doesnt say it would or it does he says it could.
Also is that isn't it odd that wasn't contained in the submission they put to the select committee in 2016. but what was, was stuff cut copied and pasted direct from the NRA in the USA.
unless all of a sudden in NZ we often use the term varmint. Its not a professional organisation is it nor are they exactly without bias.
https://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-NZ/51SCLO_EVI_00DBSCH_INQ_68642_1_A516760/dbafb19a51f53256a9bdbceb42e9bc22727ef15d

COLFO considers that most licensed owners have 3-6 firearms on average. Most would own a
.22 rifle, a centrefire rifle and a shotgun. This means that a successful targeting of a licensed
owner in a burglary would “net” the underworld 3-6 firearms which would remain in
circulation for a very long period50 within criminal circles.
The amount of ammunition held is speculative at best. A deer hunter may only hold 40-80
rounds at any one time. A varmint shooter, carrying pest destruction may hold thousands of
rounds at a time as it is cheaper to buy in bulk. A target shooter, firing hundreds of rounds a
week may hold tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition.


For more added lols on Sport shooting:
Still Doesnt say banned by the law
Nor does it ban sport shooting.


For extra Added Lols (GunsNZ CEO):
So the gun lobby wants more money
Maybe they should look for some Russian donors like the NRA does to help fill its coffers.



Que some serious Ironing.

Really

http://legislation.govt.nz/bill/government/2019/0125/latest/whole.html
Suppressors - Gone.
NO
Calibres/Ammunition - Gone.
No
Sport Shooting - Gone.
No
Optics/Sights - Gone. No
To all those who laughed and said 'Oh, this won't affect me', May I suggest you work on your submissions?
They want to Ban 'Military Calibres' - so .308, .223, 7.62, 5.56, .338, .303, .30-06, .30-30 - Gone
. No
What will the law abiding Kiwi Firearm owners be left with?
The same firearms as before just more restricted in who can own what based on licence endorsement.