The firearm thread

[TheDemonLord]

There are plenty more. Lots of the club members can attest to that.
Remember that this liarbour government wants complete registration, which will equal far greater quantities of innacurate information, using their past performance as the primary example.
Then they want the firearm owners to pay for it all...

Then they expose the details to anyone with a login due to 'an unauthorized Vendor change'

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/03/firearms-licences-were-among-personal-details-breached-in-tuia250-security-failure.html

More Data Breaches.

Only this time, it was covered up because proving the Government to be irresponsible for Firearm Licence data when you are pushing for a Firearm registry would be politically inconvenient.

Not to mention that there is no reason why the Ministry of Culture and Heritage should be holding any Firearm Licence data, especially not on a 3rd party platform.

[FJRider]

… I might mention that nobody has published details of a case that was solved using registration details.

*Apart from the one in the post above.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/83882125/a-shot-rings-out-road-worker-george-taiaroa-is-dead-and-so-begins-a-threeyear-search-for-answers

[austingtir]

https://i.imgur.com/xNqPnoK.jpg

[scumdog]

[/IMG]


Top post and so true!

I guess new gun laws have dropped in priority...:shifty:

[Swoop]

Top post and so true!

I guess new gun laws have dropped in priority...:shifty:

Presumably the gubbinment has been happy wasting so much money on the confiscation scheme now...:facepalm:

[Swoop]

Well. 100% higher than predicted. How surprising.
That's just the admin costs alone
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330293

[TheDemonLord]

Not to mention it confirms only a quarter were handed in, there is no evidence that it has made NZ Safer.

[jasonu]

Well. 100% higher than predicted. How surprising.
That's just the admin costs alone
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12330293


Not to mention it confirms only a quarter were handed in, there is no evidence that it has made NZ Safer.

A total fucking joke and no one is any safer because of it.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/120285768/mosque-terrorist-was-wrongly-granted-firearms-licence-due-to-police-mistakes-sources-say

So, Stuff is only now just reporting on what Firearm owners have been saying for over a year.

No Licence = No Firearms = No Ammunition = No Shooting.

Everything that was required to prevent the Terrorist attack was in place with the old Rules, the reason it happened was because the Police did not follow their own Rules.

Now we've got proof that the Law changes were based on a Lie, the only moral option is a complete repeal of the Laws that were railroaded through on false information.

[scumdog]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/120285768/mosque-terrorist-was-wrongly-granted-firearms-licence-due-to-police-mistakes-sources-say

So, Stuff is only now just reporting on what Firearm owners have been saying for over a year.

No Licence = No Firearms = No Ammunition = No Shooting.

Everything that was required to prevent the Terrorist attack was in place with the old Rules, the reason it happened was because the Police did not follow their own Rules.

Now we've got proof that the Law changes were based on a Lie, the only moral option is a complete repeal of the Laws that were railroaded through on false information.

'
'Must spread rep'

Now watch Jacinda and co. hide behind the smoke screen of the two new Covid19 cases - that also should never have happened.

(Although I see Jacinda herself is keeping schtum and giving others a hospital pass.)

[TheDemonLord]

Fucking.
Cunts.

[scumdog]

Fucking.
Cunts.


Tactfully put...
:shifty:

[caseye]

Yep! they got all those guns, off all of those bad people. Sadly it's taken another Constables life,and the critical wounding of another, to show, they fucking well haven't.
All they've done is made it easier for those low lifes to use them against anyone they want.
This sucks.:facepalm:

[JimO]

Yep! they got all those guns, off all of those bad people. Sadly it's taken another Constables life,and the critical wounding of another, to show, they fucking well haven't.
All they've done is made it easier for those low lifes to use them against anyone they want.
This sucks.:facepalm:
they have taken the law abiding citizens firearms

[jasonu]

Yep! they got all those guns, off all of those bad people. Sadly it's taken another Constables life,and the critical wounding of another, to show, they fucking well haven't.
All they've done is made it easier for those low lifes to use them against anyone they want.
This sucks.:facepalm:

That guy must have forgotten to hand his in.
Anyone feeling safer yet?

[husaberg]

Some facts
1) we dont know the weapon was a prohibited weapon.
2 there has been 34 poilceman killed in the line of duty since the formation of NZ with most shot. 4 in one event

Yet if we go to a city smaller than Auckland in the USA how many police officers have been killed in the same period.
nine since 1990 for all of NZ
8 for Austin TX
Austin has a population leass than 1/4 the size of NZ. but almost the same number of Police killed.

33 for san Diego with a population of 1.4 million with 5 since killed 1990.
Detriot doesn't even have a million people yet has had 239 policeman killed on duty.


You guy are continually trotting out utter rubbish to support your own opinion which is utter garbage also.

[Laava]

That guy must have forgotten to hand his in.
Anyone feeling safer yet?
i feel safer than if I lived in poodunk north mexico!

[FJRider]

That guy must have forgotten to hand his in.
Anyone feeling safer yet?

Whatever the firearm ... on the prohibited list or not ... the safe bet is that the owner of the weapon was unlicensed.

After that ... any other facts are irrelevant.

[FJRider]

they have taken the law abiding citizens firearms

NOPE ... the Law abiding citizens of NZ (that posses a firearms license) are still pretty well armed.

[Bonez]

NOPE ... the Law abiding citizens of NZ (that posses a firearms license) are still pretty well armed.I can assure you my brother is and his grand knows how to use them. :)

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Some facts
1) we dont know the weapon was a prohibited weapon.
2 there has been 34 poilceman killed in the line of duty since the formation of NZ with most shot. 4 in one event

Yet if we go to a city smaller than Auckland in the USA how many police officers have been killed in the same period.
nine since 1990 for all of NZ
8 for Austin TX
Austin has a population leass than 1/4 the size of NZ. but almost the same number of Police killed.

33 for san Diego with a population of 1.4 million with 5 since killed 1990.
Detriot doesn't even have a million people yet has had 239 policeman killed on duty.


You guy are continually trotting out utter rubbish to support your own opinion which is utter garbage also.

You’re cherry picking statistics, to support your argument.
Anyway, comparing the US with NZ is hardly comparing apples with apples, is it ?
I think it’s ironic ( and sad ) that the day after more firearms legislation was passed to ‘make the streets safer’, a policeman was killed by a firearm. I’d put my house on the guy not being a licenced firearm owner.

[husaberg]

You’re cherry picking statistics, to support your argument.
Anyway, comparing the US with NZ is hardly comparing apples with apples, is it ?
I think it’s ironic ( and sad ) that the day after more firearms legislation was passed to ‘make the streets safer’, a policeman was killed by a firearm. I’d put my house on the guy not being a licenced firearm owner.

really, i was comparing western people in the first world with lax gun laws vs western first world with stronger gun laws
I picked on cities with simialr demograhics in two countries and popularion size to NZ large NZ city where the death occured
If you believe you have better stats post them..... go on. Seriously what do you have to lose.
Post some evidence or go away.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

really, i was comparing western people in the first world with lax gun laws vs western first world with stronger gun laws
I picked on cities with simialr demograhics in two countries and popularion size to NZ large NZ city where the death occured
If you believe you have better stats post them..... go on. Seriously what do you have to lose.
Post some evidence or go away.

Mate, stop the attacks, seriously, not worth getting your knickers in a twist.
I’m not interested in posting rebuttal stats, they’d have the same relevance as yours.iE, none.
If if we all went away, you’d you have to debate with ?:2thumbsup

[husaberg]

Mate, stop the attacks, seriously, not worth getting your knickers in a twist.
I’m not interested in posting rebuttal stats, they’d have the same relevance as yours.iE, none.
If if we all went away, you’d you have to debate with ?:2thumbsup

You have as always of your ilk, no facts, you have nothing but an opinion that is not backed by anything other than your whah whah bumhurt, over the gun laws getting tightened in NZ.
Who would have guessed that.......
you made a claim i cherry picked facts, i never did this at all you on the other hand don not have a single fact.
if i wanted to do that i could have chosen the worst cities in the USA for crime, i didnt do that. so i dint cherry pick anything
here is some other fact based stats you can ignore.
346189346190346191346192

[Ian Staples]

That guy must have forgotten to hand his in.
Anyone feeling safer yet?

no you are wrong . It was just bad timing that the cop pulled him up while he was on his way to the police station to hand his gun in ...… as good people do. And his female gang crack whore had convictions for carrying a knife. but as the white gang apologist in Hamilton told us on the TV that all gang members are caring nice people now and the make lunches for school kids the knife she was carrying would have been to butter the bread with!!

[jasonu]

Mate, stop the attacks, seriously, not worth getting your knickers in a twist.
I’m not interested in posting rebuttal stats, they’d have the same relevance as yours.iE, none.
If if we all went away, you’d you have to debate with ?:2thumbsup

Don't feed the troll!!!!!

[Bonez]

Don't feed the troll!!!!!Ooooh. But that isn't any fun. I mean half a dozen Bozos have me on ignor and still respond to my posts.:brick:\

I feel safe here btw. Not like those poot twits up norf it seems. Looks like the dope heads and druggies have moved their head quarters from our wee street. Even pulling down surveillance cameras. Of course an up standing member of the community will email po po if there are changes:innocent:

[scumdog]

Whatever the firearm ... on the prohibited list or not ... the safe bet is that the weapon was unlicensed.

After that ... any other facts are irrelevant.


Considering 'weapons' (firearms?) never have a licence it's a safe bet you're right! :laugh:

[Bonez]

Considering 'weapons' (firearms?) never have a licence it's a safe bet you're right! :laugh:GOAL!!!! 10 char

[husaberg]

Don't feed the troll!!!!!

People would starve to death if they lived of you producing proof to allegations you made.
odd you cant back up your allegations seeing as you are so sure it was true......
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131164260#post1131164260

ps when you live in the US and you spend so much time trolling on about laws and a government in a country where you do not live, then call others a troll, it makes you look americant.......

[FJRider]

Considering 'weapons' (firearms?) never have a licence it's a safe bet you're right! :laugh:

Post now edited for accuracy ... :third:

[eldog]

Considering 'weapons' (firearms?) never have a licence it's a safe bet you're right! :laugh:

having or had.

probably never bothered to even think they needed one. yeah, nah, Nek minute.


Where did I get the weapon, stole it from the fulla down the road......
didnt need money, it was just lying there - not used.

[Bonez]

having or had.

probably never bothered to even think they needed one. yeah, nah, Nek minute.


Where did I get the weapon, stole it from the fulla down the road......
didnt need money, it was just lying there - not used.I'd never say we were unarmed. What with a few taiahas, clubs and a few other assortment of "thing" you'd never expect to be lethal located around the property and easy to get at. You can create some neat stuff with wood. And of course then there is Connie:facepalm:

[jasonu]

So a brown fulla kills a white cop and nay a word about that in the press...

[Bonez]

So a brown fulla kills a white cop and nay a word about that in the press...Cos it's wasit pro.

[avgas]

you made a claim i cherry picked facts, at least i had facts.
Me too!!!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bennyjohnson/10-reasons-america-is-still-number-one
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/oct/04/donald-trump/united-states-no-1-energy-producer-world/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/07/03/21-maps-and-charts-that-prove-america-is-number-one/

So yeah its a tough one.....

I find the best charts in life are here http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

[husaberg]

Me too!!!

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bennyjohnson/10-reasons-america-is-still-number-one
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/oct/04/donald-trump/united-states-no-1-energy-producer-world/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/07/03/21-maps-and-charts-that-prove-america-is-number-one/

So yeah its a tough one.....

I find the best charts in life are here http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

Only none of those are about firearms or safety or people killed by firearms.
its like me saying we have a higher number of wekas than the USA does.
Again its a fact that on average and on demographics and beyond a shadow of doubt for any person with a modicum of common sense is, that the laxer the laws are in any particular country the more people there are that get killed by firearms.
Feel free to depute that with facts... go on.

[Bonez]

Only none of those are about firearms or safety or people killed by firearms.
its like me saying we have a higher number of wekas than the USA does.
.Moor Hens?

[TheDemonLord]

that the laxer the laws are in any particular country the more people there are that get killed by firearms.
Feel free to depute that with facts... go on.

Then how do you explain that the vast majority of Firearm murders in the US are in States with particularly strict laws, whereas States with much more relaxed laws have a lower rate?

[Danger Mouse]

Only none of those are about firearms or safety or people killed by firearms.
its like me saying we have a higher number of wekas than the USA does.
Again its a fact that on average and on demographics and beyond a shadow of doubt for any person with a modicum of common sense is, that the laxer the laws are in any particular country the more people there are that get killed by firearms.
Feel free to depute that with facts... go on.

Except that's the complete opposite of what actually happens.

You must be friends with hera cook,

“I don’t think we are going to achieve a great deal by talking about facts” -Hera Cook, Gun Control NZ...

[Kickaha]

Then how do you explain that the vast majority of Firearm murders in the US are in States with particularly strict laws, whereas States with much more relaxed laws have a lower rate?

You mean like Chicago in Illinois where they tracked the majority of weapons coming from adjoining states with lax firearms laws

[husaberg]

Except that's the complete opposite of what actually happens.

..

Really the complete opposite, so the figures to back your assertion then?
show us all how its the complete opposite then?
Or are you going to try an misrepresent the facts like the rather desperate TDL attempts to. without any evidence.
i can show the figures to back mine here they are.
346243346241346244


You mean like Chicago in Illinois where they tracked the majority of weapons coming from adjoining states with lax firearms laws

Also maryland but what the dude is also trying to misrepresent is hes using number in total rather than per head of population.
the fact he needs to try misrepresent the numbers should be a clue he doesn't have the facts on his side so has to resort to petty tricks and falsehoods to push his own agenda.


ILLINOIS
Despite earning an A- for its gun laws, Illinois has a higher gun death rate than many states with similar laws because of guns trafficked in from nearby states. Nearly half the guns used in crimes in Illinois—and nearly 60% of the guns used in crimes in Chicago—are trafficked from states with weaker gun laws. The majority of these guns come from neighboring Indiana, which received a D- on the Scorecard for lacking many of the important gun safety protections Illinois has passed. Southern states with F grades, like Missouri, Kentucky, and Mississippi, also traffic hundreds of crime guns into Illinois each year.


MARYLAND
Traffickers often exploit gaps in federal law by purchasing guns at gun shows and in private sales in states that haven’t passed universal background checks. Maryland, which earned an A- on the Scorecard, has the nation’s highest rate of crime gun imports, with traffickers bringing in nearly three times as many guns to Maryland as the average state. Maryland sits on the Iron Pipeline, a route used to traffic firearms from southern states with weak gun laws to northeastern states with stronger laws. Nearly a third of crime guns recovered in Maryland were originally sold in Virginia. Guns from Georgia and Florida are also major contributors to violence in the state.


CALIFORNIA
California has the strongest gun laws in the nation but neighbors several states that don’t yet make the grade. Weaker laws in nearby states undermine California’s comprehensive gun safety laws, fueling gun crime and violence in the state—more than 10,000 guns are trafficked into California and used in crimes each year. While California has its own anti-trafficking laws, firearm trafficking is not treated as a federal crime, making enforcement difficult and enabling criminals to exploit weaknesses in the system. Ironically, California’s neighbors benefit from the state’s gun safety laws, as firearms originating in California are among the least likely to be recovered at crime scenes in other states.

even with these outlier states here is the breakdown

average rank in gun law tightness vs lowest rates average ranking for firearm killings/ head of population

A 43.5 out of 50.
B 40.66 out of 50.
C 28.58 out of 50.
D 22.33 out of 50.
F 15.619 out of 50.

ten worst states gun law ranks.
8 are F's 2 are C

[TheDemonLord]

You mean like Chicago in Illinois where they tracked the majority of weapons coming from adjoining states with lax firearms laws

So you are saying that the Criminals don't abide by the Firearm laws in the State they are in?

Not only that, but if my memory is correct, trafficking firearms across State lines is a Federal Offence.

[scumdog]

Except that's the complete opposite of what actually happens.

You must be friends with hera cook,

“I don’t think we are going to achieve a great deal by talking about facts” -Hera Cook, Gun Control NZ...

Hera Cook 'stupid as stupid does' - doesn't allow logic to back her emotional thick claims

She's dangerously dumb and gets way too much time in the media.

[Danger Mouse]

So you are saying that the Criminals don't abide by the Firearm laws in the State they are in?

Not only that, but if my memory is correct, trafficking firearms across State lines is a Federal Offence.

That's the problem with the gun control crowd. They are dishonest. They lie about their motivations, they lie about their intent, and they lie about their methods.

[husaberg]

That's the problem with the gun control crowd. They are dishonest. They lie about their motivations, they lie about their intent, and they lie about their methods.




Except that's the complete opposite of what actually happens.

..

Go on then explain your lie then.....

[pritch]

Got an email from the Police today, still digesting it. There is this video...

https://www.police.govt.nz/advice-services/firearms-and-safety/new-firearms-laws-and-what-they-mean/prohibited-firearms-added#small

[TheDemonLord]

Got an email from the Police today, still digesting it. There is this video...

https://www.police.govt.nz/advice-services/firearms-and-safety/new-firearms-laws-and-what-they-mean/prohibited-firearms-added#small

Oh look, The police writing the rules again and banning more things.

Nevermind the separation of Powers from the Executive and the Legislature and the Judiciary.

NZ Police, one-stop incompetent shop.

[scumdog]

Oh look, The police writing the rules again and banning more things.

Nevermind the separation of Powers from the Executive and the Legislature and the Judiciary.

NZ Police, one-stop incompetent shop.


Gotta agree -and they same to equate (mistake?) their 'policy' for 'law in a lot of their printed stuff re firearms storage etc..

[scumdog]

Go on then explain your lie then.....

I can explain one of the lies - the claim that they were targeting 'evil black guns' (to quote one) when the new laws swept up the most innocuous looking ancient rifles in the same net, no mention of that.

Hera Cook is a classic anti-gun liar, have a look at what she says.

[husaberg]

I can explain one of the lies - the claim that they were targeting 'evil black guns' (to quote one) when the new laws swept up the most innocuous looking ancient rifles in the same net, no mention of that.

Hera Cook is a classic anti-gun liar, have a look at what she says.

The only people going on about hera cook, is people other than me.
I asked the idiot to explain his inference, that the tighter the gun rules the more problems with guns there is.
When its clear, the opposite is true.

[Kickaha]

the only people going on about hear cook is people other than me.
i asked the idiot to explain his inference that the tighter the gun rules the more problems with guns there is.
when its clear, the opposite is true.

Where's the figures for NZ prior to the Mosque shooting and after the Mosque shooting ?

[husaberg]

Where's the figures for NZ prior to the Mosque shooting and after the Mosque shooting ?

Okay Warwick prior to the mosque shooting there were many multiple killing after the law reforms there has been none.
Yes that's sarcasm, but its a silly question.

Burgess gang
Five men were robbed and killed on the Maungatapu Track near Nelson in 1866


Strikes in 1912 and 1913, a Communist revolution in Russia, and large numbers of ex-military guns coming into the country after World War I were used as justification for a new law in 1920. The new law required the registration of all firearms and issue of a "permit to procure" before a firearm was transferred. Semi-automatic pistols were banned and a special permit was needed for other pistols (e.g. revolvers), with the intent of discouraging the carrying of concealed weapons. Few changes were seen for the next forty years as crime remained low and the country avoided political violence.

Hēnare Hona 1934
5 killed

Stanley Graham 1941
Hokitika man Stanley Graham shot four police officers and three other people after a dispute with a neighbour who he believed was killing his cattle in 1941.
Graham himself was eventually shot dead by police after a manhunt involving more than 100 police and several hundred army and Home Guard personnel.

Featherston riot 1843
Guards at a Featherston camp for Japanese prisoners of war shot and killed 48 prisoners during a riot in 1943, during World War II. One New Zealand soldier also died.


Various new laws were introduced in the 1970s and 80s, proposing more government checks, registration of shotguns (which had been abandoned) and individual licensing. An internal police report in 1982 criticised the proposals, saying there was no evidence that registration of guns helped to solve crimes, and that registration would use time and money better spent on other police work. This policy was adopted by the government in the 1983 Act

Aramoana 1990
A man in the small seaside township of Aramoana near Dunedin, David Gray, killed 13 people


Schlaepfer killing 1992
killed six members of his family before turning a shotgun on himself in May 1992.


OCT 1992 NZ farearms amendment act

Bain Family 1994
6 killed

Raurimu rampage 1997
In February 1997 Stephen Lawrence Anderson killed six people at Raurimu, near Mt Ruapehu. Anderson had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and was found not guilty of murder on the grounds of insanity.
the guns were illegally owned.



The National government in 1999, its last year in office, introduced an Arms Amendment (No. 2) Bill to implement the recommendations, and the bill was supported by the new Labour government. After the strong weight of submissions made against the bill when it was in select committee, the government was persuaded that the changes were unneeded and would be difficult to implement. Due to the opposition, the bill was withdrawn. The government then introduced a much reduced Arms Amendment (No. 3) Bill, which increased penalties for distribution, manufacture and use of illegal weapons. It has been in select committee since 2005, and the government has not shown any sign of proceeding with it. In March 2012, an order of the day for a second reading of the Arms Amendment (No. 3) Bill was discharged.


2009–2018
In August 2009, the police decided that any firearm, including single shot bolt action rifles, with a free-standing pistol grip that could allow the firearm to be shot inaccurately from the hip would be defined as an MSSA.[41] However, the High Court rejected this attempt in Lincoln v Police [2010] BCL 194; 33 TCL 11/2. Parliament subsequently amended the Arms Act as a result of the court decision.

In 2015, a TV reporter demonstrated how to subvert processes to purchase a gun by mail-order. Police promptly changed their mail-order processes and commenced a criminal investigation.

In March 2016, after Police seized 14 illegally owned MSSA weapons in a raid in south Auckland and 4 officers were shot during an armed siege in Kawerau,Parliament's Law and Order Select Committee announced an Inquiry into issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms in New Zealand. In their final report the committee made 20 recommendations, of which the National government accepted 7 and modified another.The government introduced the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill to implement several of the recommendations shortly before the 2017 election but it lapsed with the change of government. It was subsequently drawn as a member's bill but it failed to pass at the first reading.[47] The Minister also directed Police to improve their administrative processes and consultation with the firearms community.

Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was the chair of an executive committee which in 2018 ushered through amendments to the Arms Regulations 2002, to allow Police to accept and process various applications concerning firearms licences and weapons transactions electronically. The Arms (Electronic Transactions) Amendment Regulations 2018 were published in the Gazette on 20 December 2018. Previously under the Arms Act, if someone wanted to become a gun dealer, get a firearms licence, import a restricted weapon, or get a permit to buy a military-style semi-automatic, they had to physically deliver an application to their nearest police station. The regulations also allow for a buyer of a restricted weapon to show that weapon to police by video call – whereas in the past they had to take it into the station.

2019
Christchurch mosque massacre: 50 dead in shootings


If what dingemousedick was true there will be more multiple killings as a result of the law change.

People keep going on how the law reform didn't work as X many have never handed in the guns they clearly were and are not law-abiding citizens that should have even a firearm at all.

[Kickaha]

Okay Warwick prior to the mosque shooting there were many multiple killing after the law reforms there has been none.
Yes that's sarcasm, but its a silly question.


Nice deflection, I didn't ask about multiple killings, what about overall firearms deaths or did the murder rate even change at all ?

[husaberg]

Nice deflection, I didn't ask about multiple killings, what about overall firearms deaths or did the murder rate even change at all ?

No you didn't..........


Where's the figures for NZ prior to the Mosque shooting and after the Mosque shooting ?
if you wanted specific questions answered you need to ask a specific question.
The Mosque shooting was a mass killing.


For instance, in the United States there are about 106 deaths per 1 million population each year.
In each of the last two years, New Zealand recorded 2.4 gun-related deaths per million people.

considering one guy killed 50 people, in one day of the year, you now claim you want figures for.
I think the figures for that year, might be a little skewed for that same year.

[jasonu]

No you didn't..........


if you wanted specific questions answered you need to ask a specific question.
The Mosque shooting was a mass killing.


considering one guy killed 50 people in one day for the year you now claim you want fuigures for I think the figures for that year might be a little skewed for that year.

In English please.

[Kickaha]

if you wanted specific questions answered you need to ask a specific question.



Leaving the mosque victims out of it, what was the overall murder rate before the firearms confiscation and after the firearms confiscation, is that specific enough ?

[Danger Mouse]

Okay Warwick prior to the mosque shooting there were many multiple killing after the law reforms there has been none.
Yes that's sarcasm, but its a silly question.

Burgess gang
Five men were robbed and killed on the Maungatapu Track near Nelson in 1866



Hēnare Hona 1934
5 killed

Stanley Graham 1941
Hokitika man Stanley Graham shot four police officers and three other people after a dispute with a neighbour who he believed was killing his cattle in 1941.
Graham himself was eventually shot dead by police after a manhunt involving more than 100 police and several hundred army and Home Guard personnel.

Featherston riot 1843
Guards at a Featherston camp for Japanese prisoners of war shot and killed 48 prisoners during a riot in 1943, during World War II. One New Zealand soldier also died.



Aramoana 1990
A man in the small seaside township of Aramoana near Dunedin, David Gray, killed 13 people


Schlaepfer killing 1992
killed six members of his family before turning a shotgun on himself in May 1992.



Bain Family 1994
6 killed

Raurimu rampage 1997
In February 1997 Stephen Lawrence Anderson killed six people at Raurimu, near Mt Ruapehu. Anderson had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and was found not guilty of murder on the grounds of insanity.
the guns were illegally owned.






2019
Christchurch mosque massacre: 50 dead in shootings


If what dingemousedick was true there will be more multiple killings as a result of the law change.

People keep going on how the law reform didn't work as X many have never handed in the guns they clearly were and are not law-abiding citizens that should have even a firearm at all.

Here we go husaberg, stop being so insecure about your micropenis, and start educating yourself.

You're far from as smart as you think.

[ellipsis]

...knives are evil, tools of the devil...and I have a kitchen full of them...bwahahahahaha...

[Kickaha]

People keep going on how the law reform didn't work as X many have never handed in the guns they clearly were and are not law-abiding citizens that should have even a firearm at all.

I wouldn't have either, I shouldn't be penalized because the police failed in their vetting process

[Katman]

...knives are evil, tools of the devil...and I have a kitchen full of them...bwahahahahaha...

I'll send you my list.

[husaberg]

Leaving the mosque victims out of it, what was the overall murder rate before the firearms confiscation and after the firearms confiscation, is that specific enough ?

Why would you leave out the mosque victims they were gun homicides that happened?

The law reform happened last year.
On 10 April, the Government passed the Arms (Prohibited Firearms, Magazines, and Parts) Amendment Act 2019.
The amnesty lasted until DEC 19
the second tranche only came into effect March 15 this year.
Yet you want to judge it based on 6 months vs 200 years.


Over a 10-year period, New Zealand's total number of gun-related homicides 73 people died in New Zealand in a gun-related incident from 2007 to 2016.
or 69 total murders with a firearm between 2008 and 2017.


Thats about 8 homicide on average per year
For it to have increased over 50 at the CHCH mosque killings, plus an assumption of the average of 8 per year it would have had to have 48 firearm homicides by now this year.

There simply is no figures for 2020 I doubt there is even complete figures for 2019.
but I am certain there have not been 48 firearm homicides this year yet in NZ.

You actually need to wait until there is data.

[RDJ]

Why, husaberg, are you such a hoplophobe?

Did someone point a gun at you once and you wet yourself?

People kill people, guns don't kill people until wielded by the evil.

We have seen a significant rise in gun crime since the post-massacre gun confiscations from the law-abiding.

Because, buckwheat, the non-law-abiding don't give up their weapons, whether those weapons are guns, knives, bats, cars, fists, boots, electrical cords, 4"x2" timber baulks, fence-posts, or anything else they can grip and hit their victims with.

[Kickaha]

but I am certain there have not been 48 firearm homicides this year yet in NZ.

You actually need to wait until there is data.


I said overall murder rate not firearms murder rate, you need to work on your comprehension

[Kickaha]

We have seen a significant rise in gun crime since the post-massacre gun confiscations from the law-abiding.

.

Where are your links and figures to back that statement up ?

[husaberg]

I said overall murder rate not firearms murder rate, you need to work on your comprehension
but you said you want to also exclude results of some murders ie 50 of them?
So what would that prove to do with a firearm legislation change?
Why are you wanting to mislead the results in a firearm thread by leaving of 50 firearm murders?
Do you think people are now using other weapons to kill people rather than firearms?
This is all I can find.
https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/default/files/publications/homicide-victims-report-2018.pdf

According to the homicide report .
126 people – 86 men, 27 women and 13 young people – who died in suspicious or homicidal circumstances 2019.
There is no figures for 2020 on account of it is still 2020.

[Danger Mouse]

Deleted. 10 char

[pritch]

Some may not like Husaberg's posts, they may even criticise his spelling. Y'all have to admit though that he does know how to use a search engine. Unlike some others hereabout.

[FJRider]

Where are your links and figures to back that statement up ?

From May 2020. Not statistic's as such ... but interesting reading.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416881/rates-of-gun-crimes-and-killings-using-guns-at-highest-levels-in-a-decade

Opinions of the general public may vary on how serious the actual issue is ... as will some groups opinion on the seriousness of any perceived issue.

ie: There will be those with public safety interests at heart ... and those with their own interests at heart (and still claiming to be in the former group).

[RDJ]

Where are your links and figures to back that statement up ?

I did the research. You can do it too. Police official (online) sources; and collating countrywide media reports.

[Kickaha]

I did the research. You can do it too. Police official (online) sources; and collating countrywide media reports.

Hitchens Razor, "That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

[TheDemonLord]

i wouldn't have either, i shouldn't be penalized because the police failed in their vetting process

qfmft.....

[husaberg]

I did the research. You can do it too. Police official (online) sources; and collating countrywide media reports.

I don't believe you did much research at all, I think you read a singular report, done by a reporter and repeated throughout NZ and went off the headline rather than the information.
Some people here will only read what suits their agenda.
Much like you did when you posted word for word a national party press release a few weeks back and tried to pass that off as apart of an official report.
You still weeks later, won't fess up to that one.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/188175-The-journey-that-COVID-19-will-take-us-on?p=1131172984#post1131172984


Rates of gun crimes and killings using guns at highest levels in a decade
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/416881/rates-of-gun-crimes-and-killings-using-guns-at-highest-levels-in-a-decade

Sounds damming and is dated May 2020 but actually refers to 2018 and 2019


New figures obtained by RNZ show last year had the highest rates of gun crime and deaths involving firearms for nearly 10 years.
This is hardly surprising as 50 people were killed in what they described as two incidents and in both of the last two years( ie 2018 and 2019)

the rate of deadly incidents involving a firearm was the highest it had been since 2009.
Again this refers to 2018 and 2019. Before the gun laws were in either effect or even in full effect.

On 10 April, the Government passed the Arms (Prohibited Firearms, Magazines, and Parts) Amendment Act 2019.
The amnesty lasted until DEC 19
The second tranche only came into effect March 15 this year.2020
Yet you want to judge it based on 6 months vs 200 years.

But if you go back to 2014, New Zealand had less than 1 death per million people, so there has been a steep rise over the past few years.( again 2019 and 2018)
Then we have this one in a similar vein.

Gun crimes and gun deaths at highest levels in a decade
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/gun-crimes-and-gun-deaths-at-highest-levels-in-a-decade/275IMOGW3LJEUMMDMM7HQ2FLVI/
The figures, obtained from police under the Official Information Act, show the rates of gun crime went up in 2018 and 2019.

But if you go back to 2014, New Zealand had less than one death per million people, so there has been a steep rise over the past few years. (again this is 2018 2019)


if we go to the actual figures that are only complete here up to 2015 they were erratic anyway. but trending up. if you look at the last 3 years of the figures.
Rate of Gun Homicide per 100,000 People
Chart In New Zealand, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/new-zealand
2016: 0.205
2015: 0.20
2014: 0.14
2013: 0.23
2012: 0.09
2011: 0.07
2010: 0.19
2009: 0.28
2008: 0.17
2007: 0.12
2006: 0.20
2005: 0.20
2004: 0.1035
2003: 0.10
2002: 0.2035
2001: 0.20
2000: 0.20
1999: 0.20
1997: 0.30 Raurimu rampage Stephen Anderson kills 6
1996: 0.20
1995: 0.20
1994: 0.5035 Bain Family 1994 6 killed
1993: 0.20
1992 amendments to the Act
1992: 0.40 Schlaepfer killing 6 plus himself
1991: 0.30
1990: 0.70 Aromoana
1989: 0.50
1988: 0.50


In 2019 after the Christchurch mosque shootings John Banks said that he was "haunted" by not being able to persuade his cabinet colleagues to ban semi-automatic guns after the Aramoana massacre in 1990.

[RDJ]

I don't believe you did much research at all, I think you read a singular report, done by a reporter and repeated throughout NZ and went off the headline rather than the information.

You're confusing me with someone who cares what you think. Especially when you write about your urinary continence under fire, in feedback. Get a grip.

[TheDemonLord]

Chart In New Zealand, the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is
https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/new-zealand
2016: 0.205
2015: 0.20
2014: 0.14
2013: 0.23
2012: 0.09
2011: 0.07
2010: 0.19
2009: 0.28
2008: 0.17
2007: 0.12
2006: 0.20
2005: 0.20
2004: 0.1035
2003: 0.10
2002: 0.2035 32
2001: 0.20
2000: 0.20
1999: 0.20
1997: 0.30
1996: 0.20
1995: 0.20
1994: 0.5035
1993: 0.20
1992: 0.40
1991: 0.30
1990: 0.70
1989: 0.50
1988: 0.50

So, nothing wrong with the ownership of Semi-Automatics then, According to that list.

Seems to be a problem with the Police failing their responsibilities and giving a licence to someone who should never have had one.

[Danger Mouse]

So, nothing wrong with the ownership of Semi-Automatics then, According to that list.

Seems to be a problem with the Police failing their responsibilities and giving a licence to someone who should never have had one.

Particularly those owned by properly vetted license holders

[husaberg]

You're confusing me with someone who cares what you think. .

So go on then show the research material you claimed existed then. What do you have to lose?
I lost all respect when you posted the national party press release and claimed it was actually directly out of the OECD report.
Then weeks later try and pretend you didn't.
You made a claim that was a repeat of the claim that dinglemouse made that is in no way backed by facts.


https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/188175-The-journey-that-COVID-19-will-take-us-on?p=1131172984#post1131172984

I did the research. You can do it too. Police official (online) sources; and collating countrywide media reports.
All the research material shows what you have claimed is simply a fallacy.




Especially when you write about your urinary continence under fire, in feedback. Get a grip.


Why, husaberg, are you such a hoplophobe?
Did someone point a gun at you once and you wet yourself?
.

You are seriously deluded, did you forgot what you wrote?


Here are the facts
the law worked until it didnt, there were warning years ahead of time there were many recommendations from expert groups that were dismissed as people were afraid of the Gun lobby.
The gun lobby called the laws the best in the world right up until the massacre.of 50 people
Firearm ownership in NZ is not a right, its a privilege, As a result of greed and a few peoples stupidity, the privileges that were allowed in past times are no longer deemed to be acceptable risks for the majority of the population.

You might not agree with this, but you are in the minority holding this opinion. both of the voters and of the political parties
Its simply not in the majority of the NZ population opinion acceptable to have rapid fire farearms that can hold large mags freely available to all and sundry.
Having weapons freely available for a few day's pay that can kill 50 people in a few minutes is no longer acceptable.
Quite simply A Peoples right to go about there daily lives unharmed exceed the rights of those that want to have a weapon that serves no practical purpose.
you can all argue al you want how you think it should be different but stop making up crap to try and justify it.

[Danger Mouse]

Oh look. Husaberg is STILL serial red repping every post of mine he can find

[Kickaha]

the law worked until it didnt

The law worked until the police ignored their own vetting procedure and allowed a person who shouldn't have been granted a firearm access to them, but they've been allowed off scott free

[Danger Mouse]

The law worked until the police ignored their own vetting procedure and allowed a person who shouldn't have been granted a firearm access to them, but they've been allowed off scott free

Diverting up to 50% of funding allocated to administration of the arms act certainly didn't help either.

Finally it's being taken off police. Even MPs are calling the police administration of the act incompetent.

[TheDemonLord]

The law worked until the police ignored their own vetting procedure and allowed a person who shouldn't have been granted a firearm access to them, but they've been allowed off scott free

Again, This needs to be Quoted.

When the appropriate checks and balances in the system were applied - no issue.

When they were ignored, by the Crown, big issue.

[husaberg]

The law worked until the police ignored their own vetting procedure and allowed a person who shouldn't have been granted a firearm access to them, but they've been allowed off scott free

Well, put it this way, I don't know if he had a gun license in Aussie.
but his mum knew he had an arsenal of guns here yet never raised an alarm about it.

The police are meant to interview a next of kin, either family or partner I don't know what happens when his family is overseas, what they do.
He was able to legally obtain both ar15's and large mags 1000's of rounds of ammunition here on a A CLASS license,
he could not do that legally in Aussie, there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't have got a license in Aussie, he certainly would have got one in the USA
He then, I believe allegedly modified the AR15s for more rapid-fire.

and the triggers of some of the firearms were modified so he could fire them more quickly

You might suggest it was a licensing f- up, this well might be also true, as allegedly those two interviewed did not know him personally but all these write-ups i have seen about him are that he was outwardly pleasant. with little to suggest he was a danger
He was I a gun club they never seen any issues either.
but the fact is he obtained the weapons here on an A class license.

Ar15 's and similar havelittle to no practical use outside of killing people or pretending to kill people on a A class license.
The laws were changed to exclude them in the 1990's and the importers were constantly modifying them to get around the rules.
The guns laws prior the incident were supposed t be world-class according to ti the gun lobby and they resisted any changes to them very strongly.

[Kickaha]

The police are meant to interview a next of kin, either family or partner I don't know what happens when his family is overseas, what they do.
He was able to legally obtain both ar15's and large mags 1000's of rounds of ammunition here on a A CLASS license,

You might suggest it was a licensing f- up, this well might be also true, as allegedly those two interviewed did not know him personally but all these write-ups i have seen about him are that he was outwardly pleasant. with little to


He was only able to obtain the licence because the police didn't follow the correct procedures, if they had then he would not have been granted a licence

[TheDemonLord]

The police are meant to interview a next of kin, either family or partner I don't know what happens when his family is overseas, what they do.

"You can't meet our Vetting requirements, so we can't process this application"



I believe allegedly modified the AR15s for more rapid-fire.


What?

Firstly, that makes zero sense. "More rapid Fire", do you mean a higher rate of fire? Because the answer is no - they were semi-Auto only

Secondly? Statements like this prove you are so ignorant on the subject as to be summarily ignored.




He was I a gun club they never seen any issues either.

Except the 3 complaints to the police about his behavior and conduct, that the NZ Police, mysteriously 'can't find'

[husaberg]

He was only able to obtain the licence because the police didn't follow the correct procedures, if they had then he would not have been granted a licence

That's a big call, do you have any evidence to back it up?
Do you have any evidence that he would not have received a license in the USA or Aust?
Under the then-current law, he was able to buy multiple AR15's and 60 round and 40 round mags. Anyone man and his dog cant buy these now
Something he couldn't do in AUST. Which is more than like why he did it here.

[onearmedbandit]

That's a big call, do you have any evidence to back it up?



https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/this-was-avoidable-nz-police-botched-mosque-shooter-s-gun-licence-20200616-p55314.html

[jasonu]

https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/this-was-avoidable-nz-police-botched-mosque-shooter-s-gun-licence-20200616-p55314.html

Well that’s fairly conclusive. Game set and match.

[husaberg]

https://www.smh.com.au/world/oceania/this-was-avoidable-nz-police-botched-mosque-shooter-s-gun-licence-20200616-p55314.html

Its an opinion piece.
something that TDL and the old sinbin sulkerjason constantly dismisses when applied to Trump.............
in this case, the results of the investigation as far as I know have not been released



Police sources, who include both current and former staff who spoke to Stuff on the condition of anonymity, say the licence would not have been granted if proper procedure had been followed.

Another arms officer is supposed to check the applicant has been properly vetted before issuing the licence, yet no red flag was raised about the incomplete file.
The licence application came at a time when the arms office in Dunedin district was overloaded by applications. A source said Dunedin staff would at times call their colleagues in police headquarters, crying on the phone due to the pressure of their workload. Applications were being shunted through at speed.
The wrongful licensing was the result of a firearms control regime that was destroyed by years of mismanagement by police, a police source told Stuff.



According to Stuff, Tarrant was wrongly granted a firearms licence due to police failures. Sources said that police failed to interview a family member as required for obtaining a firearms licence, instead interviewing two men that Tarrant had met through an online chatroom. In the days after the attack, the police had quashed concerns that Tarrant had obtained the weapons inappropriately. Police have not given comment to this allegation, saying they do not wish to interfere with the ongoing inquiry into the event
Plus I had already raised it Fraser.

That said all the rest I said that you edited out still stands.



He was only able to obtain the licence because the police didn't follow the correct procedures, if they had then he would not have been granted a licence


That's a big call, do you have any evidence to back it up?
Do you have any evidence that he would not have received a license in the USA or Aust?
Under the then-current law, he was able to buy multiple AR15's and 60 round and 40 round mags. Anyone man and his dog cant buy these now
Something he couldn't do in AUST. Which is more than like why he did it here.



Well, put it this way, I don't know if he had a gun license in Aussie.
but his mum knew he had an arsenal of guns here yet never raised an alarm about it.



The police are meant to interview a next of kin, either family or partner I don't know what happens when his family is overseas, what they do.
He was able to legally obtain both ar15's and large mags 1000's of rounds of ammunition here on an A CLASS license,
He could not do that legally in Aussie, there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't have got a license in Aussie, he certainly would have got one in the USA
He then, I believe allegedly modified the AR15s for more rapid-fire.

and the triggers of some of the firearms were modified so he could fire them more quickly

You might suggest it was a licensing f- up, this well might be also true, as allegedly those two interviewed did not know him personally but all these write-ups i have seen about him are that he was outwardly pleasant. with little to suggest he was a danger
He was I a gun club they never seen any issues either.
but the fact is he obtained the weapons here on an A class license..

[onearmedbandit]

Plus I had already raised it onearmedbandit.

That said all the rest I said that you edited out still stands.

Huh? What did I edit out? I just merely linked an article supporting what kickaha had claimed. I never stated anything nor edited anything out.

[Kickaha]

That's a big call, do you have any evidence to back it up?
Do you have any evidence that he would not have received a license in the USA or Aust?
Under the then-current law, he was able to buy multiple AR15's and 60 round and 40 round mags. Anyone man and his dog cant buy these now
Something he couldn't do in AUST. Which is more than like why he did it here.

The link Fraser put up is one of many, there was also at least one person interviewed who had raised concerns with police about his behavior prior to the shooting and nothing was done about it

What does him being able to obtain a Firearms licence in the USA or OZ have to do with anything in NZ

The police fucked up and have not been held accountable

AR15 is nothing special, they well liked because they have a lot of accessories and are easy to customiseto suit the owner, if he couldn't of got those he could have done the same with other weapons

[FJRider]

That's a big call, do you have any evidence to back it up?

So ... the King of Google and paste [sic] ... couldn't find the NZ Firearms License Application requirements to confirm or argue those points raised. Your crown is getting a little tarnished. Cardboard crowns do get that way.

A firearms license applicant must provide two referees to be interviewed by police vetting staff tasked with assessing the risks the person could pose. This he did ... BUT (According to police's own firearms manual) ... one needs to be a next of kin and family member. Such as ... a partner or parent. Instead Tarrant gave the contacts as being a father and son that lived in Cambridge that Tarrant had met in an internet chat room. The second referee is supposed to be an unrelated person that knows the applicant well.

Thus simply ... the full (as required in Law) criteria was not applied in Tarrants firearms license application. You do not need to be a Lawyer to work THAT out.

Tarrant's license was granted without a family member even being questioned.

Another (and last part) of the application process is ... an arms officer is supposed to check to see if the applicant has been properly vetted before issuing the license. This never happened.



Do you have any evidence that he would not have received a license in the USA or Aust?

An irrelevant question. The application was made for a New Zealand Firearms License.

What he could/should/might have done ... is pointless to try and discuss. HE DIDN'T EVEN TRY in the US or Aussie. He KNEW NZ would be the easiest place to apply for one. And his own record would exempt him from entry into the USA. Which was probably the real reason he came to New Zealand.


Under the then-current law, he was able to buy multiple AR15's and 60 round and 40 round mags. Anyone man and his dog cant buy these now.

That IS true. The actual reason why HE CAME HERE. What the point you are trying to make ... by even mentioning this ... ??


Something he couldn't do in AUST. Which is more than like why he did it here.

In an earlier part of the post I am quoting ... you ASKED OAB ...


Do you have any evidence that he would not have received a license in the USA or Aust?

Why did you ask that question ... if you already knew/assumed the answer ... ????

[husaberg]

Huh? What did I edit out? I just merely linked an article supporting what kickaha had claimed. I never stated anything nor edited anything out.

the lines under the one you quoted?

[husaberg]

The link Fraser put up is one of many, there was also at least one person interviewed who had raised concerns with police about his behavior prior to the shooting and nothing was done about it
One of many unsustained reports from the same source it could have been reported a million times in 100,000 newspapers but it's at this stage only that.

What does him being able to obtain a Firearms license in the USA or OZ have to do with anything in NZ
You are claiming it's only a police licensing issue and completely disregard the fact without being able to legally buy the weapons it would not have likely played out the same.

The police fucked up and have not been held accountable
Your opinion based on guess what , an unsustained report. it way well be true but you don't have all the information to which you could make an informed opinion.

AR15 is nothing special, they well liked because they have a lot of accessories and are easy to customise to suit the owner, if he couldn't of got those he could have done the same with other weapons
that's why all that class of firearm has been banned on a A-class.
All a class of weapon he couldn't have brought in Aussie

[onearmedbandit]

the lines under the one you quoted?

Ah those lines. Edited out because I wasn't addressing them. I was merely supplying a link.

[FJRider]

One of many unsustained reports from the same source it could have been reported a million times in 100,000 newspapers but it's at this stage onely that.

How many times has ANY Police representative or Police Member made a statement denying ANY wrongdoing on their part ... ?? or giving any explanation of this case regarding the seemingly incorrect procedure used ... ???


You are claiming it's only a police licensing issue and completely disregard the fact without being able to legally buy the weapons it would not have likely played out the same.

He couldn't buy them in Aussie (you admitted that yourself) But ... with a basic (A class) license ... he could (then) and DID in NZ. The rules NOW are more inline with other western countries.


Your opinion based on guess what , an unsustained report. it way well be true but you don't have all the information to which you could make an informed opinion.

Nor do you have anything (other than YOUR opinion) to prove him wrong. Things called facts that you can quote.


that's why all that class of firearm has been banned on a A-class.
All a class of weapon he couldn't have brought in Aussie

Not BANNED at all ... just more restricted to purchase. Some firearms ... such as pistols (and now military style semi-automatic type firearms) ... also need a Police permit to procure each specific firearm ... and these weapons need to be registered with Police.

You can confirm ALL that yourself ... quite easily.

[Kickaha]

You are claiming it's only a police licensing issue and completely disregard the fact without being able to legally buy the weapons it would not have likely played out the same

Just like you completely disregard the fact that he was only legally able to buy them because of the police disregarding their own vetting procedure

I'm pretty sure with different weapons legally available now you could come up with the same end result

[FJRider]

Sauce?

As that would restore a small modicum of respect for the Police.



Tomato sauce.

Although the word you might have been looking for was source.

It would still not "Restore" the lives of the 51 killed during the two shootings.

Are the same people and numbers ... still in the firearms licensing departments ... ???

[husaberg]

Just like you completely disregard the fact that he was only legally able to buy them because of the police disregarding their own vetting procedure

It seems we have a different interpretation of what completely disregard means.


Well, put it this way, I don't know if he had a gun license in Aussie.
but his mum knew he had an arsenal of guns here yet never raised an alarm about it.

The police are meant to interview a next of kin, either family or partner I don't know what happens when his family is overseas, what they do.
He was able to legally obtain both ar15's and large mags 1000's of rounds of ammunition here on a A CLASS license,
he could not do that legally in Aussie, there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't have got a license in Aussie, he certainly would have got one in the USA
He then, I believe allegedly modified the AR15s for more rapid-fire.


You might suggest it was a licensing f- up, this well might be also true, as allegedly those two interviewed did not know him personally but all these write-ups i have seen about him are that he was outwardly pleasant. with little to suggest he was a danger
He was In a gun club they never seen any issues either.
but the fact is he obtained the weapons here on an A class license.

Ar15 's and similar have little to no practical use outside of killing people or pretending to kill people on a A class license.
The laws were changed to exclude them in the 1990's and the importers were constantly modifying them to get around the rules.
The gun laws prior to the incident were supposed t be world-class according to ti the gun lobby and they resisted any changes to them very strongly.



I'm pretty sure with different weapons legally available now you could come up with the same end result

Your own words do not convey a sense of certainty in this sentiment.

i think the difference is ,I value 51 people's lives higher than the rights of a few gun owners to own a gun on a A class license that has no practical need.

[Kickaha]

Your own words do not convey a sense of certainty in this sentiment.

i think the difference is ,I value 51 people's lives higher than the rights of a few gun owners to own a gun on a A class license that has no practical need.

I'll reword it for you, I'm fucking dead certain with the weapons legally available to today I could achieve the same result

51 people who would still be alive if it wasn't for the incompetence of the police who vetted him

[husaberg]

I'll reword it for you, I'm fucking dead certain with the weapons legally available to today I could achieve the same result

51 people who would still be alive if it wasn't for the incompetence of the police who vetted him

Thats your opinion which you are entitled to it but one that isn't exactly been shown to be without a degree of personal bias on the mater.
nor does it seem to be entirely reasonable given the circumstances.
Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.

[TheDemonLord]

Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.

So you must be well scarred then, because I can think of multiple items, that are reliant on a singular person ticking the right box that have been used for Mass Murders.

[FJRider]

Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.

The system at the time of Tarrants firearms application process was NOT "A singular person ticking the boxes" ... as REQUIRED in Police policy and rules ... but it was how Police carried out the License application process. Even your remaining three working brain cells could have worked that out.

The Police were not following THEIR own rules. Rules as required in Law. The only reason they gave for this was ... that they were short staffed.

Bugger eh ... !!!

[scumdog]

T
Me I prefer a system where it isn't solely reliant on a singular person ticking the right box to potential avoid mass murders being able to buy powerful weapons that have absolutely no practical use aside from killing people.


Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby


And the issue of an A cat. licence holder buying large capacity magazines had been brought to the attention of police - who declined to do anything about controlling their sale to those not holding an E cat licence.

As an aside, every time theres been a mass shooting in NZ the govt has moved the 'goalpost' (toughened the laws) and sat back saying "See, no more mass shootings"

Until the next one...

[husaberg]

Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby


And the issue of an A cat. licence holder buying large capacity magazines had been brought to the attention of police - who declined to do anything about controlling their sale to those not holding an E cat licence.

As an aside, every time theres been a mass shooting in NZ the govt has moved the 'goalpost' (toughened the laws) and sat back saying "See, no more mass shootings"

Until the next one...

Oh the old pest controller, needs them so all should have them, but you don't mention if they are actually part of their job they can get a license to own and operate. They are not needed at all by A class holders. red hering........
September 2019

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/399089/hundreds-apply-for-permits-to-keep-banned-firearms-since-christchurch-terror-attack
Figures obtained under the Official Information Act show 425 firearms licence holders have applied for 835 prohibited endorsements since 15 March, the day of the terror attacks.
The most popular request was for a Pest Control endorsement, of which the police received 577 applications for both firearms and magazine permits.
The figures show 547 applications are still pending, while 243 have been approved and 36 have been declined.
All of the declined applications were for pest control permits, meaning about 14 percent of processed pest control permit applications have been declined.




The US doesn't change the laws and has open laws and has more mass shootings per capita. How do you explain that?
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/42615-The-firearm-thread?p=1131164780#post1131164780

lastly, yeah it must be the polices fault, that people were buying and selling large capacity mags and gun shops were selling ar15's and similar specifically modified to float the laws. yeah, blame the police rather than those who were responsible.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105882611/the-battle-over-semiautomatics-police-frustrated-by-the-law-firearm-owners-frustrated-by-police
Note the date.
Also

Police Minister Paula Bennett has put the public and front-line police officers in danger after rejecting recommendations to tighten firearm controls, the Police Association says.
Association president Chris Cahill said Bennett had rejected every meaningful recommendation put forward by the Law and Order Select Committee, and had "appeared to bow to the pressure of the gun lobby".
"The Minister's concern about over the top rules and restrictions on hunters and shooters ignores the reality that New Zealand is awash with firearms and the majority of them are stolen."
Bennett today responded to the Law and Order Select Committee report on illegal firearms, accepting only seven of 20 recommendations designed to stop criminals getting their hands on guns.
besides, it couldn't be the laws itself you know those same laws Colfo said were the best in the world and should not be changed.


COLFO New Zealand already has world leading requirements for the legal use of firearms and largely all that can be done is done to prevent criminal misuse: COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading. For its cost, effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remains comfortably fit for purpose. COLFO considers that its members and the public can and should take pride in the system


COLFO opposes:
• Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
• Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
• Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive.
No one has ever said no more mass shooting the end goal is less.

notice how you need to add evil and black why do you need to change the narrative?

[TheDemonLord]

Oh the old pest controller, needs them so all should have them, but you don't mention if they are actually part of their job they can get a license to own and operate. They are not needed at all by A class holders. red hering........

Except a number of people who operated legitimate pest control businesses or side-businesses that couldn't meet the criteria to obtain a P endorsement.


The US doesn't change the laws and has open laws and has more mass shootings per capita. How do you explain that?

How do you explain that most of these happens in States with the most restrictive Gun Laws?


lastly, yeah it must be the polices fault, that people were buying and selling large capacity mags and gun shops were selling ar15's and similar specifically modified to float the laws.

They gave him the licence, in breach of their own rules, so yeah, it IS the Police's fault. Everytime the Law was suggested to be changed and things like restricting High-cap Magazines to an E-Cat licence was floated, the Police wanted to enact further restrictions


No one has ever said no more mass shooting the end goal is less.

So, one every 30 years, that could be entirely prevented if the Police did their job properly - seems like the old laws by your own definition of 'less' were perfectly fine.

[scumdog]

Oh the old pest controller, needs them so all should have them, but you don't mention if they are actually part of their job they can get a license to own and operate. They are not needed at all by A class holders. red hering........
September 2019




The US doesn't change the laws and has open laws and has more mass shootings per capita. How do you explain that?
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/42615-The-firearm-thread?p=1131164780#post1131164780

lastly, yeah it must be the polices fault, that people were buying and selling large capacity mags and gun shops were selling ar15's and similar specifically modified to float the laws. yeah, blame the police rather than those who were responsible.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105882611/the-battle-over-semiautomatics-police-frustrated-by-the-law-firearm-owners-frustrated-by-police
Note the date.
Also

besides, it couldn't be the laws itself you know those same laws Colfo said were the best in the world and should not be changed.




No one has ever said no more mass shooting the end goal is less.

notice how you need to add evil and black why do you need to change the narrative?

(a) I made no claim that EVERYBODY needed one, did I? - but the gist of your comments were that NOBODY NEEDED THEM
(B) The so-called 'gun lobby' approached the powers that be asking the large capacity mags be for E cat holders only but were ignored/told it was not necessary.
(c) The media/politicians made the ''evil black guns' call
(d) Re' the laws were the best in the world' comments - even IF they were? - it would be a waste of time having them if they were ignored by those administering them.

[husaberg]

(a) I made no claim that EVERYBODY needed one, did I? - but the gist of your comments were that NOBODY NEEDED THEM[QUOTE]
Really you claimed Frequently
"Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby."
I claimed no A class license holder "Needed them" no A class license hold does need them.


(B) The so-called 'gun lobby' approached the powers that be asking the large capacity mags be for E cat holders only but were ignored/told it was not necessary.
Do you have some links for this or was it done after the massacre of 51 unarmed innocent people?

COLFO New Zealand already has world leading requirements for the legal use of firearms and largely all that can be done is done to prevent criminal misuse: COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading. For its cost, effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remains comfortably fit for purpose. COLFO considers that its members and the public can and should take pride in the system


COLFO opposes:
• Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
• Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
• Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive.

as I posted the police position which was the law was unenforceable as they were being sold to A-class licence holders and they could do nothing until the second it was put in a A class firearm.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105882611/the-battle-over-semiautomatics-police-frustrated-by-the-law-firearm-owners-frustrated-by-police


"It doesn't require a semi-automatic weapon, whether it's got a high-capacity magazine or otherwise, to shoot a lot of people."
Describing police policy, he uses a word fondly held in the firearm community: "ultra-vires", meaning beyond legal authority.
Like Gun City, COLFO is considering legal action to defend the semi-automatic status quo.


(c) The media/politicians made the ''evil black guns' call.
yet you are the one saying I referred to them as this

"Those 'evil black guns' you refer to are frequently used by pest controllers on goat and wallaby."


(d) Re' the laws were the best in the world' comments - even IF they were? - it would be a waste of time having them if they were ignored by those administering them.
They claimed they were and resisted any change I have shown this to be a fact.
You have no evidence they were ignored. The police refused to comment as there was an investigation going on this is normal
Even if someone had made a mistake, And that is an IF it should have been caught the normal process for these sorts of things is someone generates the information, then someone else approves the application.

[FJRider]

I claimed no A class license holder "Needed them" no A class license hold does need them.

They may well be in the pest eradication business ... and may very well "Need" them. But ... the point is moot if they do not have the correct class of license ... it will be illegal for them to own one.


Do you have some links for this or was it done after the massacre of 51 unarmed innocent people?

It was ignored because the laws were changed and no exceptions were made. For any class of weapon.


After the Christchurch mosque shootings in 2019, legislation to restrict semi-automatic firearms and magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds, and provide an amnesty and buyback of such weapons was introduced and passed by the New Zealand parliament

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law_in_New_Zealand


as I posted the police position which was the law was unenforceable as they were being sold to A-class licence holders and they could do nothing until the second it was put in a A class firearm.

The larger magazines are not illegal to own ... just illegal to load and use on a semi-automatic weapon.

Note ...
legislation to restrict semi-automatic firearms and magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds was introduced and passed by the New Zealand parliament

I find it laughable that you quote STUFF as a definitive source of facts.

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/royal-commission-suppress-evidence-in-christchurch-terror-attack-report-30-years

"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.

[husaberg]

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/royal-commission-suppress-evidence-in-christchurch-terror-attack-report-30-years

"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.

We? one is a supreme court judge, the other has a law degree and was an ambassador to multiple countries we can rest assured both are more qualified and have greater levels of impartiality and know more than you do.



Sir William is a Supreme Court Judge, and former President of the Court of Appeal of New Zealand. He was appointed to the Supreme Court in June 2010.
Sir William graduated from the University of Canterbury in 1974 with an LLB with first class honours and was awarded the Gold Medal in Law by the then Canterbury District Law Society for being the top graduating law student in his year.
Sir William then completed a PhD at Cambridge University and returned to New Zealand to enter legal practice in Christchurch. From being a partner in his firm, Young Hunter, he became a Barrister Sole in 1988 and a Queen’s Counsel in 1991. In his QC role, Sir William acted in several high profile cases.

In 1997, Sir William was appointed a Judge of the High Court, progressing to the Court of Appeal (2004), the Presidency of the Court of Appeal (2006) and the Supreme Court (2010).




Jacqui Caine (Ngāi Tahu, Kāti Māmoe, Waitaha), was New Zealand’s Ambassador to Chile, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, and Bolivia, from 2015 to 2018. Since February this year, she has been working for Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu. She comes from Bluff but currently lives in Christchurch.

Jacqui studied law and commerce at Otago University in New Zealand. She was a career diplomat and has had a number of roles in the New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade including in the Trade Negotiations Division, Legal Division and Americas Division.
Jacqui has also served as the Deputy Ambassador to Singapore and Mexico and Deputy High Commissioner to Vanuatu.

[TheDemonLord]

We? one is a supreme court judge, the other has a law degree and was an ambassador to multiple countries we can rest assured both are more qualified and have greater levels of impartiality and know more than you do.

I couldn't give a toss about their Credentials. Their actions have already spoken for them.

I DO give a toss about redacting information in a report that is in the Public interest.

And it's not like it's just us Uppity Firearm owners who are still upset at our Rights being pissed on.

Turns out the Muslim community also feel the same way.

[husaberg]

Looking at the facts in relation to the report They know more than you, They are more qualified than you, they had access to all the information. They have a far greater level of both intelligence and impartiality.
Yet it appears you are aggrieved they never came to the same conclusion as you thought they should, based on your lower level of impartiality talent and qualifications and evidence.:nya:
Unless you feel you know more than NZ supreme court judge does about legal or procedural matters relating to the law or this case in particular? :lol:
Case closed.

[TheDemonLord]

Looking at the facts in relation to the report They know more than you, They are more qualified than you, they had access to all the information. They have a far greater level of both intelligence and impartiality.
Yet it appears you are aggrieved they never came to the same conclusion as you thought they should, based on your lower level of impartiality talent and qualifications and evidence.:nya:
Unless you feel you know more than NZ supreme court judge does about legal or procedural matters relating to the law or this case in particular? :lol:
Case closed.

You've managed to spectacularly miss the point.

If you can't tell the difference between agreeing with the conclusion of a report and transparency of the information used to reach that conclusion - then there's not much hope for you.

[husaberg]

yeah...........


"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.


Commissioners say a lengthy suppression of the full evidence is necessary to avoid inspiring future attacks. The transcript of the interview with the attacker Brenton Tarrant will not be released.
Commissioners Sir William Young and Jacqui Caine said “full publication of the evidence could provide a "how-to manual for future terrorists" and expected that after 30 years those fears would likely have "dissipated”.
Confidentiality was also a reason for the suppression of evidence, with commissioners saying the people they spoke to were advised the process was “private”.
"We told them that our process was private and that we would not publish in our report what they told us without first going back to them."
"We did this with a view to encouraging candour, which we received

Oddly you never had an issue with the 911 reports information being redacted as it was done for the same reasons as stated in the NZ commission.

[TheDemonLord]

yeah...........

See where I said you missed the point?

See the part you didn't underline?

Now see if you can work out why a report that hides the details that it used to reach it's conclusions might be treated with derision?

And again, The Islamic community agree - and considering we are approaching this report from the polar opposite ends of the spectrum, that should be a hint.

[husaberg]

See where I said you missed the point?

See the part you didn't underline?

Now see if you can work out why a report that hides the details that it used to reach it's conclusions might be treated with derision?

And again, The Islamic community agree - and considering we are approaching this report from the polar opposite ends of the spectrum, that should be a hint.

You gave three points then claim to only made one, I addressed all three including the high level of hypocrisy you are showing, you have no ability to act in a rational manner so back to ignore you go.

We investigated ourselves,
found we did nothing wrong,
and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"


Fuck.
Right.
Off.

We? one is a supreme court judge, the other has a law degree and was an ambassador to multiple countries we can rest assured both are more qualified and have greater levels of impartiality and know more than you do.


Sir William is a Supreme Court Judge, and former President of the Court of Appeal of New Zealand. He was appointed to the Supreme Court in June 2010.
Sir William graduated from the University of Canterbury in 1974 with an LLB with first class honours and was awarded the Gold Medal in Law by the then Canterbury District Law Society for being the top graduating law student in his year.
Sir William then completed a PhD at Cambridge University and returned to New Zealand to enter legal practice in Christchurch. From being a partner in his firm, Young Hunter, he became a Barrister Sole in 1988 and a Queen’s Counsel in 1991. In his QC role, Sir William acted in several high profile cases.

In 1997, Sir William was appointed a Judge of the High Court, progressing to the Court of Appeal (2004), the Presidency of the Court of Appeal (2006) and the Supreme Court (2010).


Jacqui Caine (Ngāi Tahu, Kāti Māmoe, Waitaha), was New Zealand’s Ambassador to Chile, Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, and Bolivia, from 2015 to 2018. Since February this year, she has been working for Te Rūnanga o Ngāi Tahu. She comes from Bluff but currently lives in Christchurch.

Jacqui studied law and commerce at Otago University in New Zealand. She was a career diplomat and has had a number of roles in the New Zealand Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade including in the Trade Negotiations Division, Legal Division and Americas Division.
Jacqui has also served as the Deputy Ambassador to Singapore and Mexico and Deputy High Commissioner to Vanuatu.


yeah...........


TDL"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.




Commissioners say a lengthy suppression of the full evidence is necessary to avoid inspiring future attacks. The transcript of the interview with the attacker Brenton Tarrant will not be released.
Commissioners Sir William Young and Jacqui Caine said “full publication of the evidence could provide a "how-to manual for future terrorists" and expected that after 30 years those fears would likely have "dissipated”.
Confidentiality was also a reason for the suppression of evidence, with commissioners saying the people they spoke to were advised the process was “private”.
"We told them that our process was private and that we would not publish in our report what they told us without first going back to them."
"We did this with a view to encouraging candour, which we received
Oddly you never had an issue with the 911 reports information being redacted as it was done for the same reasons as stated in the NZ commission.



And still no-one has ever come up with a logical explanation as to why Douglas Cochrane's testimony to the 9/11 Commission remains classified to this day.



Contains classified material, related to National Security would be my first guess...
Of course...

The only logical interpretation is the one that supports your beliefs...


It might also be paramount to National Security...

You know - like what the US response is for a type of scenario...

It speaks volumes that you dismiss the blindingly obvious reason in favour of one that supports your world view...


See the point about you not liking the most obvious reason, simply because it doesn't conform to your narrative.

You don't know more about the law, the case or the reasons, plus you have been shown to be a total hypocrite regarding the redacting you lose suck it up, or move to another country pommy.

[TheDemonLord]

You gave three points then claim to only made one, I addressed all three including the high level of hypocrisy you are showing, you have no ability to act in a rational manner so back to ignore you go.

There's no hypocrisy, only your deliberate misunderstanding.

To most people, they would understand the preamble and meme of 'We've investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong' to be a sarcastic characterization of an entity that produces a report (wait for it):

whereby certain information is omitted, ignored, censured, covered up or otherwise not released in full, which is clearly linked to the subsequent actual point that they aren't releasing it in full.

Everything else is just your own insanity. But don't worry - the Power of the Ignore button will protect your feelings.

[husaberg]

, I would never ever EVER take a character reference for an individual, from someone who only knew them from an Internet Forum.



how he was granted the ability to obtain the Firearms in the first place - Do you think an Internet Forum persona is an Acceptable Character Reference?


His Referees were 2 people that had only known him from an Online Forum.



The Chch Terrorist was not vetted properly by NZ Police (an online persona as a Character reference, what a Joke).


Point of Order - 'Vetting' where he used Referees that only knew him from a Web Forum, and the Trans-Tasman checks are still not a thing...


In case you missed it, tomorrow, someone could come from Aus, be a member of numerous hate groups online, use a Referree from who only knows them from an online Forum, get issued a FAL, purchase a Rifle and go shoot innocent people.

One might wonder how you explain or justify that often your repeated claim that they never met them in person?
because the report says they have physically met for 21 days.


also these same people
Neither referee disclosed "anything adverse" about Tarrant and vouched for him as being a "fit and proper person".
But the gaming friend, the inquiry found, was "well aware" of Tarrant's extremist political opinions and that he was racist and Islamophobic. They did not tell the vetting officer.


Ps don't bother with answering, the fact you were so clearly and so obviously wrong, yet will never admit it, is by far more than satisfying enough.

[ellipsis]

...the truth is a bitter pill to swallow, and irrespective of what truths you follow, the pill never seems to sweeten...

[TheDemonLord]

One might wonder how you explain or justify that often your repeated claim that they never met them in person?
because the report says they have physically met for 21 days.

A Whole 21 days?!?!

Because you really know a persons character from 21 days.

/Sarcasn

The referee I used had known me Personally for 16 YEARS, which includes a period of about 5 years seeing them at least once a week for Band Practice.

[pritch]

A Whole 21 days?!?!

Because you really know a persons character from 21 days.

/Sarcasn

The referee I used had known me Personally for 16 YEARS, which includes a period of about 5 years seeing them at least once a week for Band Practice.

Really there are no excuses. This was a total fuck up by the police on a number of levels.

Firearms licence applications are not processed by one person. Normally it would be at least two people locally, possibly three, if the boss is doing his job. Then it would go off to National HQ where other people (at least two?) would check it before issuing the licence. If any one of those people had done their job properly his application would have been stopped.

[TheDemonLord]

Really there are no excuses. This was a total fuck up by the police on a number of levels.

Firearms licence applications are not processed by one person. Normally it would be at least two people locally, possibly three, if the boss is doing his job. Then it would go off to National HQ where other people (at least two?) would check it before issuing the licence. If any one of those people had done their job properly his application would have been stopped.

Absolutely.

[husaberg]

Really there are no excuses. This was a total fuck up by the police on a number of levels.

Firearms licence applications are not processed by one person. Normally it would be at least two people locally, possibly three, if the boss is doing his job. Then it would go off to National HQ where other people (at least two?) would check it before issuing the licence. If any one of those people had done their job properly his application would have been stopped.

Totally for sure, it was a whole series of fuck ups, by police and other agencies and a whole raft of loopholes that where left open due to greed of the gunshops and people wanting stuff for fun rather then having a genuine need but most were oversights, Yet the referee lying is more than an oversight though.
Also, there is a clear difference between not meeting someone and meeting someone. note TDL will never admit that even though he claimed for months the shooter had never had met the referees.



1Gaming friend and their parent both held firearms licences with B and E Endorsements. This entitled them to possess pistols and military style semi-automatic firearms and indicated that they had already been subject to New Zealand Police vetting that was more extensive than that required for the standard firearms licence the individual was applying for.

Both referees considered the individual to be safe with firearms. Gaming friend said the individual was “well aware of safety and proper handling of firearms” and that he was a sensible, responsible person. Gaming friend’s parent stated that the individual was a “good, outstanding young man” and gave their opinion that the individual was “good and safe” with firearms.
A good outstanding young man.
A nice person.
Both referees said that they had shot with the individual and supported his application (see Part 4, chapters 2 and 4).
Been out with me – done some range shooting and instructed in care and safety with firearms.



33

Gaming friend’s parent was asked “Do you know of any reason whatsoever as to why police should refuse to issue a firearms licence to the applicant?” They replied “No”. When asked “Why do you hold this view?”, the gaming friend’s parent’s response is recorded as “No reasons known” and “Fully supportive”.
Gaming friend’s response to the same set of questions is recorded as “No reasons known”.

Gaming friend was known to New Zealand Police and the New Zealand Customs Service due to their attempted importation of an offensive weapon and firearm parts without the necessary permits to import. This information was on their National Intelligence Application printout when the Licensing Clerk reviewed it. New Zealand Customs Service’s records note the following:

In May 2014, gaming friend tried to import a knuckleduster knife. Knuckledusters are considered offensive weapons and require a New Zealand Police permit to import them. The item was intercepted by New Zealand Customs Service at the border. New Zealand Customs Service officers contacted New Zealand Police who confirmed that gaming friend did not have the necessary permit. The knuckleduster knife was, therefore, seized.
In December 2015, gaming friend tried to import four firearm parts - one cheek riser for a Magpul CTR/MOE stock, one AK47 Nato US stock, one AR15 buttstock extension tube and one AKM4 stock adapter for a collapsible stock. The items were intercepted by New Zealand Customs Service at the border. As gaming friend did not have the required import permit, the items were seized.
15

Following the December 2015 incident, the District Arms Officer in Waikato contacted gaming friend, gave them a verbal warning and told them that they would not receive the items.

16

The National Intelligence Application printout for gaming friend’s parent showed they had four convictions:

refusing an officer’s request to undergo an evidential blood test on 14 July 1989;
producing a logbook33 that contained false particulars on 14 July 1989;
producing a logbook that omitted a material particular on 14 July 1989; and
driving with an excess proportion of alcohol in their breath on 15 March 1991.

During the vetting interview, gaming friend described the individual as a friend. They said that their initial contact with the individual, ten years earlier, had been through “video games etc” and that they had been in regular contact since. They noted the individual was an Australian, “widely travelled” and had recently come to New Zealand and would “probably settle here”.

Gaming friend’s parent also described the individual as a friend and said they had known him for four years.


Gaming friend first met the individual in 2007 through playing online video games and, prior to the individual applying for a firearms licence, had spent approximately 21 days with him in person in New Zealand in 2013 and August 2017.

Gaming friend’s parent first met the individual in 2013, when the individual stayed with the family. The individual spent further time with gaming friend’s parent when he stayed with the family in August 2017. Over these two visits, the individual spent seven days in total at the house of gaming friend’s parent and, in this sense, had spent some seven days in their company. Gaming friend’s parent and the individual did not interact online



When New Zealand Police interviewed the individual’s two referees, and they had the same answers, why did it not raise any alarm bells?
The referees gave similar, but not the same, answers to the vetting questions. Each of them was interviewed in Waikato by the same Vetting Officer but on different days.

Gaming friend described the individual as a friend whom they had known for ten years, initially meeting the individual through playing video games online and that they had been in regular contact since that time. Gaming friend’s parent described the individual as a friend whom they had known for four years.

Both referees said that they had gone shooting with the individual and supported his application. Both are recorded as having responded “No reasons known” in response to a question of whether they knew of reasons why a licence should be refused. We take this as recording the substance of the answers given – that they were not aware of reasons why a licence should be refused.


While gaming friend had interactions with the individual in which the individual expressed far right political, racist and Islamophobic views, gaming friend did not usually respond to, or engage with, these expressions of opinion. Likewise, gaming friend did not object to them.

[onearmedbandit]

Did the gun shops not work within the confines of the law? They are a business, they are there to sell guns etc for a profit. If they acted outside of the law then they deserve blame but if they didn't then...

[husaberg]

Did the gun shops not work within the confines of the law? They are a business, they are there to sell guns etc for a profit. If they acted outside of the law then they deserve blame but if they didn't then...
They brought in firearms especially modified to circumvent the law, A law that was solely designed to make them illegal, they did this knowingly, it being dubiously legal is not an excuse, Whilst they might not have a legal case to answer, ask yourself if the incident was made easier due to this policy to circumvent the law so to create additional profits?
At which time does the responsibility also partly fall on them?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105577890/firearm-importers-prepare-for-court-battle-with-police-over-over-semiautomatic-rifles
Not much different than Ford and the pinto.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1977/09/pinto-madness/

[pritch]

They brought in firearms especially modified to circumvent the law, A law that was solely designed to make them illegal, they did this knowingly

That too is true.

[R650R]

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/royal-commission-suppress-evidence-in-christchurch-terror-attack-report-30-years

"We investigated ourselves, found we did nothing wrong, and you don't need to know the details for 30 years"

Fuck.
Right.
Off.

Just what are they hiding??? I could understand police, first responder, doctors on scene witnesses have gbtheir names suppressed permanently if desired.
But govt ministers and public servsnts???? WTF....
I bet the redaction is because they prob provide contradicting accounts of something...

As for the idea about not providing a “ how to future manual” that is laughable.
Even the state owned tv station shows police reality shows, docos, movies showing forced entry, mobile attacks, snipers the whole show....
Then there’s the myriad of computer games where you could “train” for anything and desensitise the emotions etc....

God if only we had journos that could think on the fly and ask the hard questions...

[R650R]

So when’s worksafe joining the party, oh that’s right they only prosecute hero’s...

But in all the gun hysteria the church/council should be in the firing line over inadequate emergency exits and entry security. Since 911 muslims have been disliked by some and then you’ve got chch’s shocking history of racist skinheads attacking people...

[onearmedbandit]

They brought in firearms especially modified to circumvent the law, A law that was solely designed to make them illegal, they did this knowingly, it being dubiously legal is not an excuse, Whilst they might not have a legal case to answer, ask yourself if the incident was made easier due to this policy to circumvent the law so to create additional profits?
At which time does the responsibility also partly fall on them?



With that explanation then I see your point and agree. Thanks.

[scumdog]

They brought in firearms especially modified to circumvent the law, A law that was solely designed to make them illegal, they did this knowingly, it being dubiously legal is not an excuse, Whilst they might not have a legal case to answer, ask yourself if the incident was made easier due to this policy to circumvent the law so to create additional profits?
At which time does the responsibility also partly fall on them?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105577890/firearm-importers-prepare-for-court-battle-with-police-over-over-semiautomatic-rifles
Not much different than Ford and the pinto.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1977/09/pinto-madness/

Piss poor law then innit?

And worse, tptb ignored requests from 'the gun lobby' (whoever they are) to put large capacity magazines in the 'E" catagory list.

But tptb knew better and didn't.

So Tarrant bought them...

[ellipsis]

They brought in firearms especially modified to circumvent the law, A law that was solely designed to make them illegal, they did this knowingly, it being dubiously legal is not an excuse, Whilst they might not have a legal case to answer, ask yourself if the incident was made easier due to this policy to circumvent the law so to create additional profits?
At which time does the responsibility also partly fall on them?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105577890/firearm-importers-prepare-for-court-battle-with-police-over-over-semiautomatic-rifles
Not much different than Ford and the pinto.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/1977/09/pinto-madness/

..they also bring in fucking ridiculously fast motorcycles or cars that can be pointless for our laws but enthusiasts can make them even more ridiculous to our laws by enhancing their capabilities...just another joe blow in charge of a lethal weapon...depending on circumstance and headspace, just another killer on the road...

[husaberg]

..they also bring in fucking ridiculously fast motorcycles or cars that can be pointless for our laws but enthusiasts can make them even more ridiculous to our laws by enhancing their capabilities...just another joe blow in charge of a lethal weapon...depending on circumstance and headspace, just another killer on the road...

The analogy lacks a bit, IMO would be more relevant the government had specifically had banned a bike, say a Hayabusa, They did so on the basis of safety, then suzuki imported the bike anyway just with different handgrips getting around the ban by calling ita hayabusia .....
Can you imagine this happening?

Remember how yamaha kawasaki and Honda stopped making three wheelers?


his would be the last Generation offered for sale, discontinued in the United States in 1986, after an agreement between manufacturers and the Consumer Product Safety Commission to cease production on all 3-wheeled ATVs resulting from thousands of legal battles regarding safety issues and high accident rates. US Dealers were instructed to remove the motors and other common parts of remaining models, and then cut the frames in half to prevent new sales

The 2008 Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act (CPSIA) banned three-wheel ATVs.
Can you imagine Honda putting on a removable jockey wheel on a ACT250R and saying look its legal its actually a 4 wheeler?

[husaberg]

And worse, tptb ignored requests from 'the gun lobby' (whoever they are) to put large capacity magazines in the 'E" catagory list.
...

You said this previously, I asked you for the quote?
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/42615-The-firearm-thread?p=1131174405#post1131174405
Can you produce a quote for it?
Oddly the only ones I can find is the NZ lobby group describing it as being the best in the world?
https://www.nranz.com/assets/Documents/2017-04-12-COLFO-Full-Review-on-LOSC-Report.pdf


COLFO New Zealand already has world leading requirements for the legal use of firearms and largely all that can be done is done to prevent criminal misuse: COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading. For its cost, effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remains comfortably fit for purpose. COLFO considers that its members and the public can and should take pride in the system
COLFO opposes:
• Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
• Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
• Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive.

Paula benefit was the last minister who objected to the changes needed
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-response-firearms-select-committee-report

[TheDemonLord]

Reading the excerpts posted by Husa and as posted.

I see multiple instances where the Police (with full access to all the required information, as per the excerpts) had grounds to at least review the application.

At this rate, I believe the only reasonable thing to do would be to run a Buy-Back on all the Police owned Firearms.

[TheDemonLord]

They brought in firearms especially modified to Comply with the law

Fixed it for you.

If you remember, there was a court case, and the Judge ruled that the Police didn't get to interpret the law, the courts did.

[pritch]

This thread seems the best place to park this.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nra-filing-bankruptcy_n_60020672c5b697df1a05a548

[husaberg]

This thread seems the best place to park this.


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nra-filing-bankruptcy_n_60020672c5b697df1a05a548


in its press release, the group is more likely fleeing a state where the the attorney general is seeking to shut the gun group down after it was discovered the group has lost $64 million over three years.

In 2016, the NRA spent more than $30 million on behalf of the Trump campaign.
NRA also spent $54 million on the 2016 elections in total.
But as the muller investigation found, what we know is a lot of that was money from Russia.

Also like trump, they don't pay tax.
they suggest the reason they are bankrupt is covid 19, which is odd as trump says he managed that so well.

From what I can find they spent at least 20 million either opposing Biden or supporting Trump in 2020 which is interesting if they are bankrupt.

[pritch]

There was the spy, Maria Butina, who was organising a funding back channel from Russia through the NRA to the Republican Party. IIRC she's out of jail and back in the Motherland now.

I was always mildly amused when she was stated to be a representative of a Russian gun rights group. How gullible do the NRA have to be to believe that Putin would tolerate opposition to his policies from a gun rights group. Or any similar group. They'd be candidates to meet his friend Novichok.

[husaberg]

There was the spy, Maria Butina, who was organising a funding back channel from Russia through the NRA to the Republican Party. IIRC she's out of jail and back in the Motherland now.

I was always mildly amused when she was stated to be a representative of a Russian gun rights group. How gullible do the NRA have to be to believe that Putin would tolerate opposition to his policies from a gun rights group. Or any similar group. They'd be candidates to meet his friend Novichok.

She was many of the many arrested in that investigation trump likes to say found nothing....... even when thy pled guilty and he has pardoned them afterwards.
Rodger Stone
Sentenced to serve 40 months in prison for convictions on charges of making false statements witness tampering, and obstruction in connection with the Russia probe.
Stone, who has worked as a political consultant for Trump since the 1980s, was convicted in a Washington, D.C. federal court on November 15, 2019 on five counts of obstruction of justice, one count of making false statements to Congress, and one count of witness tampering.

Michael Cohen
Trump’s former personal lawyer and “right-hand man” Michael Cohen was sentenced to three years in prison on fraud and lying charges, weeks after Mueller released a memorandum that detailed more than 70 hours of cooperating and witness testimony.

Paul Manafort
Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort was found guilty on eight federal counts of bank and tax fraud and pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to obstruct justice and one count of conspiracy against the US.

Konstantin Kilimnik
Mueller charged Manafort’s “right-hand man” Konstantin Kilimnik in June with witness tampering in a superseding indictment that charges the Russian citizen and Manafort with conspiracy to obstruct justice and obstruction of justice.

Sam Patten
Republican lobbyist On August 31, Republican lobbyist Sam Patten plead guilty in federal court for failing to register as a foreign agent while he lobbied on behalf of Ukrainian interests in the US.

Rick Gates
In October 2017, Gates was indicted along with Manafort on 12 counts, including conspiracy against the US, making false statements, and failing to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts. He at first pleaded not guilty on all counts.

George Papadopoulos
a former Trump campaign adviser
On the same day Mueller’s office announced the indictments of Manafort and Gates, it was revealed that George Papadopoulos, a 30-year-old former Trump adviser, had pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with Russia.
He was arrested October 5, 2017, and subsequently cooperated with Mueller’s team. Papadopoulos is currently serving a 14-day prison sentence for lying to the FBI.

Michael Flynn
Trump’s former national security adviser
On December 1, 2017, he pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his conversations last December with Russia’s ambassador to the US at the time, Sergey Kislyak.
An indictment filed by Mueller’s office said Flynn “falsely stated” on December 29, 2016 that he did not ask Kislyak “to refrain from escalating the situation in response to sanctions that the United States had imposed against Russia that same day,” and that Flynn did not recall Kislyak “subsequently telling him that Russia had chosen to moderate its response to those sanctions as a result of his request.”

13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/grand-jury-indicts-thirteen-russian-individuals-and-three-russian-companies-scheme-interfere
plus 12 Russian intelligence officers
names not available

Richard Pinedo
California businessman Richard Pinedo pleaded guilty to one count of identity fraud on February 12, according to court documents.
The plea deal’s release came immediately after Mueller’s office announced charges against 13 Russian nationals and three Russian entities accused of interfering in the 2016 US election by mounting an elaborate and multi-faceted social media influence operation meant to sow political discord during and after the race.

Alex van der Zwaan
a Dutch lawyer Alex van der Zwaan pleaded guilty on February 20 to one count of making false statements to federal investigators.
represents the interests of numerous Russian oligarchs. He is also the son-in-law of German Khan, the Ukrainian-Russian billionaire who controls Russia’s Alfa Bank.
The institution attracted scrutiny last year, when a dossier published by former British spy Christopher Steele alleged that Alfa Bank had played a role in meddling in the 2016 US election.

Unlike Trump it seems putins that popular like Hitler and Mussolinidid, they don't feel they need elections anymore

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/438377/rise-in-gun-crime-despite-government-clampdown-after-terror-attack

So, the Buy Back did nothing to reduce Gun Crime.

This should come as no surprise to anyone who thought for a moment about the issue.

[scumdog]

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/438377/rise-in-gun-crime-despite-government-clampdown-after-terror-attack

So, the Buy Back did nothing to reduce Gun Crime.

This should come as no surprise to anyone who thought for a moment about the issue.

Kwell surprise eh!:msn-wink:

But some will say "Oh but it would be much worse if we didn't have these new laws..".)

[pritch]

The NZ Police have just sent me a reminder that the buy back ends on the first of May. After 1 May an amnesty will run until 1 August. That's like a buy back except that it's just a take back. No cash.

It gives links to where you can find details as to what firearms and kits are affected and it gives you phone numbers. There is also additional info for dealers and people who wish to retain their newly prohibited firearm.

I thought it might be useful to post the email in its entirety here but then I read this:

WARNING

The information contained in this email message is intended for the addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this message or any of its contents.

Also note, the views expressed in this message may not necessarily reflect those of the New Zealand Police. If you have received this message in error, please email or telephone the sender immediately

I've read some stupid privacy warnings from Government departments but that one takes the cake. Having read that, however, there's no way I'm posting a copy of their email here. Y'all will need to ring their number 0800 311 311 or you could email buyback2021@police.govt.nz

Good luck with that, their phone system ranks about equal with their privacy statement.

[pritch]

The New York Attorney General is conducting bankruptcy proceedings against the NRA. A large part of the evidence concerns the millions that Wayne LaPierre who heads the NRA has spent on travel. Particularly his profligate use of private jets. So recently he arrived in New York to attend the hearing - in a private jet. Somebody should perhaps explain 'optics' to Mr LaPierre?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2020/08/06/wayne-lapierres-extravagant-travels-are-central-in-new-yorks-nra-lawsuit/?sh=220ecf6338ed

[scumdog]

The New York Attorney General is conducting bankruptcy proceedings against the NRA. A large part of the evidence concerns the millions that Wayne LaPierre who heads the NRA has spent on travel. Particularly his profligate use of private jets. So recently he arrived in New York to attend the hearing - in a private jet. Somebody should perhaps explain 'optics' to Mr LaPierre?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2020/08/06/wayne-lapierres-extravagant-travels-are-central-in-new-yorks-nra-lawsuit/?sh=220ecf6338ed


And to think I shake my head at the air travel of our MPs - theyre just amateurs compared to this guy.

(But the Green MP's are not leading by example)

[jasonu]

Are any of you dicks feeling any safer after the great NZ gun grab?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/gangland-america-mayor-phil-goff-warns-auckland-becoming-wild-west/3S2UN5N4GIOV3HL6JBL3KTDM6A/

[onearmedbandit]

Are any of you dicks feeling any safer after the great NZ gun grab?


You mean the few guns that were banned? I mean obviously not the thousands and thousands of legally obtainable guns still in legal public ownership.

[JimO]

..............

[Laava]

Are any of you dicks feeling any safer after the great NZ gun grab?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/gangland-america-mayor-phil-goff-warns-auckland-becoming-wild-west/3S2UN5N4GIOV3HL6JBL3KTDM6A/
Nope, I am thinking of moving to Poodunk.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/16/shooting-fedex-facility-indianapolis-reports

[husaberg]

Nope, I am thinking of moving to Poodunk.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/16/shooting-fedex-facility-indianapolis-reports

Hey if you can't trust a guy who live in the worst country in the world for gun safety to know about how gun safety works, who can you trust:laugh:

[scumdog]

Hey if you can't trust a guy who live in the worst country in the world for gun safety to know about how gun safety works, who can you trust:laugh:


Who decided it was the 'worst country'?

What are the stats for other countries?

[husaberg]

Who decided it was the 'worst country'?

What are the stats for other countries?

Granted Scummy there are worse for violent gun deaths than the USA
but these are not first world countries that claim to be world leaders
Panama
Colombia
Brazil
Jamaica
Guatemala
Swaziland
El Salvador
Venezuela
Honduras
Belarus


it's rather telling when you compare the USA to the developed world.
348884348885

[pritch]

Are any of you dicks feeling any safer after the great NZ gun grab?

I'm feeling a lot safer here than I would living in a country that's had 46 mass shootings in the last month alone. That's not 46 deaths, that's 46 mass shootings. A minimum of three victims apart from the shooter IRCC. Unfuckingbelievable!

[TheDemonLord]

I'm feeling a lot safer here than I would living in a country that's had 46 mass shootings in the last month alone. That's not 46 deaths, that's 46 mass shootings. A minimum of three victims apart from the shooter IRCC. Unfuckingbelievable!

So, you'll be handing in your licence then?

[pritch]

So, you'll be handing in your licence then?

It has been apparent for some time that logic and you are yet to be acquainted. Even so, I'd be interested to read how you arrived at that conclusion. Why would the events taking place at the other end of the planet effect what I do with my licence? Are you considering handing your licence in?

[TheDemonLord]

It has been apparent for some time that logic and you are yet to be acquainted. Even so, I'd be interested to read how you arrived at that conclusion. Why would the events taking place at the other end of the planet effect what I do with my licence? Are you considering handing your licence in?

You seem to be subscribing to the notion that less Guns in private hands makes you safer. So, are you handing yours in?

I'm not, because I don't subscribe to that idea.

[pritch]

You seem to be subscribing to the notion that less Guns in private hands makes you safer.

And where did I suggest that exactly?

[pete376403]

You seem to be subscribing to the notion that less Guns in private hands makes you safer. So, are you handing yours in?

I'm not, because I don't subscribe to that idea.

Can you suggest an instance in NZ where the ownership/possession of a gun has made you feel safer? Of a time when you felt threatened because you couldn't access your gun?

[TheDemonLord]

Can you suggest an instance in NZ where the ownership/possession of a gun has made you feel safer? Of a time when you felt threatened because you couldn't access your gun?

That would be a great retort, if that was my point.

[TheDemonLord]

And where did I suggest that exactly?

In your comparison, given the context of the failed buy-back leading to more Firearm crime, you stated a preference.

That preference hinges on the idea that less guns = more safety.

So, will you be handing your licence in?

Alternatively, you could agree that Fit and Proper people are not and never were the issue, and agree that the Buy-back (both in terms of it's stated goal and it's actual outcome) has been an absolute failure.

[FJRider]

So, you'll be handing in your licence then?

Why would he hand in his license because of events that happened in another country ... ???

[TheDemonLord]

Why would he hand in his license because of events that happened in another country ... ???

The same reason that people have been forced to hand in their rifles because of events that happened by another person...

[pritch]

In your comparison, given the context of the failed buy-back leading to more Firearm crime, you stated a preference.

That preference hinges on the idea that less guns = more safety.

So, will you be handing your licence in?

Alternatively, you could agree that Fit and Proper people are not and never were the issue, and agree that the Buy-back (both in terms of it's stated goal and it's actual outcome) has been an absolute failure.



Nah, you are not reading what I wrote, you are off in some far different place. Which explains many of your posts. You could try reading my reply to Jason again but seriously, I don't think that would help.

I was just saying I feel safer living in a country that is currently not having multiple mass shootings almost every day.

In just the same way I feel safer in a country with a death toll of 26 from COVID compared to a country with a death toll approaching 600,000, where almost half the population still think it's a hoax. No mention of numbers of guns at all, just as in my other post.

[TheDemonLord]

Nah, you are not reading what I wrote, you are off in some far different place. Which explains many of your posts. You could try reading my reply to Jason again but seriously, I don't think that would help.

I was just saying I feel safer living in a country that is currently not having multiple mass shootings almost every day.

In just the same way I feel safer in a country with a death toll of 26 from COVID compared to a country with a death toll approaching 600,000, where almost half the population still think it's a hoax. No mention of numbers of guns at all, just as in my other post.

You're trying to divorce your reply from the context of what Jason originally wrote.

Namely that it was specifically a critique on a Failed Buy-Back that as a direct or indirect cause has resulted in higher Firearm Crime.

Your response was to compare NZ with the US and implicit in that comparison (when talking about Firearms) is the rates of ownership and the rates of Firearm crime (one you directly referenced, the other is intrinsically linked).

The point I'm forcing upon you is that despite our differences of opinion on a good number of topics, I would feel just as safe if you had a single firearm as if you had an entire 3rd world arsenal of them.

Whereas the same cannot be said for the people whose arguments you are echoing.

[scumdog]

I see that amongst the draconian ideas for new firearms laws being promoted by the Police is they want to make it law that you have to transport your firearm in a locked steel box attached to your vehicle!

Gonna make riding to my hunting spot a tad tricky...

[TheDemonLord]

I see that amongst the draconian ideas for new firearms laws being promoted by the Police is they want to make it law that you have to transport your firearm in a locked steel box attached to your vehicle!

Gonna make riding to my hunting spot a tad tricky...

I read the entire document, then wrote my own feedback on it - most of it was things like:

"The Police have failed to demonstrate a use case or that this is a significant vector of Firearms entering to unlicensed hands"

Now, as the card-carrying libertarian, if it was demonstrated that the majority of Unlawful firearms were being stolen from peoples cars - I would first want to try a community solution, agree an acceptable set of solutions and encourage people to comply with them (like encouraging the purchasing of a dedicated Firearm safe vs a 'Lockable container of stout and sturdy constructions') and if it's still an issue, then we can look at legislation...

[FJRider]

The same reason that people have been forced to hand in their rifles because of events that happened by another person...

Nobody was FORCED to hand in ANY weapons or weapon parts. It was a voluntary BUY BACK scheme. They were PAID for their weapons and weapon parts. NOBODY was ever charged (that I am aware of) for not handing in any weapons or parts they had in their possession.

If you have any facts contrary to this (note facts ... not your assumptions) please share.

[FJRider]

I see that amongst the draconian ideas for new firearms laws being promoted by the Police is they want to make it law that you have to transport your firearm in a locked steel box attached to your vehicle!

Gonna make riding to my hunting spot a tad tricky...

A trailer ... :innocent:

[FJRider]

You're trying to divorce your reply from the context of what Jason originally wrote.



NO ... his response was to reply to YOUR post. YOUR response (as is usual) was to change the subject.

[husaberg]

Nah, you are not reading what I wrote, you are off in some far different place. Which explains many of your posts. You could try reading my reply to Jason again but seriously, I don't think that would help.

I was just saying I feel safer living in a country that is currently not having multiple mass shootings almost every day.

In just the same way I feel safer in a country with a death toll of 26 from COVID compared to a country with a death toll approaching 600,000, where almost half the population still think it's a hoax. No mention of numbers of guns at all, just as in my other post.

You remember that pigeon and chess board.

http://img.picturequotes.com/2/486/485301/gentlemen-this-is-a-pigeon-quote-1.jpg

its not possibe to have a rational conversation with someone who constantly suggests you make claims you never did.
Whist at the same time ignoring that fact there own arguements actually have zero merit and that they do not know more than actual reconised experts.

[pritch]

You're trying to divorce your reply from the context of what Jason originally wrote.

Namely that it was specifically a critique on a Failed Buy-Back that as a direct or indirect cause has resulted in higher Firearm Crime.

Your response was to compare NZ with the US and implicit in that comparison (when talking about Firearms) is the rates of ownership and the rates of Firearm crime (one you directly referenced, the other is intrinsically linked).

The point I'm forcing upon you is that despite our differences of opinion on a good number of topics, I would feel just as safe if you had a single firearm as if you had an entire 3rd world arsenal of them.

Whereas the same cannot be said for the people whose arguments you are echoing.


That was very interesting. In fact it's exactly what I thought you were doing. Ignore all that, it's complete bollocks of course.
Once again, just read the words I wrote.

[FJRider]

Now, as the card-carrying libertarian, if it was demonstrated that the majority of Unlawful firearms were being stolen from peoples cars - I would first want to try a community solution, agree an acceptable set of solutions and encourage people to comply with them (like encouraging the purchasing of a dedicated Firearm safe vs a 'Lockable container of stout and sturdy constructions') and if it's still an issue, then we can look at legislation...

What Bullshit. That would be just another case of making some people pay more ... because idiots can't look after their stuff.

Should not those that report their firearms stolen from their vehicles face serious charges for failing to properly secure their firearms .. ??

Put the onus of blame on those that let their weapons fall into the wrong hands.

It might also see a drop in firearms being reported stolen ... Win win all round ... :innocent:

[TheDemonLord]

Nobody was FORCED to hand in ANY weapons or weapon parts. It was a voluntary BUY BACK scheme. They were PAID for their weapons and weapon parts. NOBODY was ever charged (that I am aware of) for not handing in any weapons or parts they had in their possession.

If you have any facts contrary to this (note facts ... not your assumptions) please share.

And what about the guy who was raided, at gunpoint, for a now-prohibited Firearm that he used as part of his submission process - that he was no longer in possession of?

As for the rest - It's now on the books that people can be charged for not handing in the parts. They were not paid a negotiated fee. Prohibited Ammo was not compensated for, and if you recall, at the Buy Back events, there were armed police.

So you'll forgive me if I think the use of the word 'voluntary' in this case is a both absurd and utterly perverse.

[TheDemonLord]

NO ... his response was to reply to YOUR post. YOUR response (as is usual) was to change the subject.

See: https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/42615-The-firearm-thread?p=1131184973#post1131184973

Which sparked my retort.

[TheDemonLord]

Should not those that report their firearms stolen from their vehicles face serious charges for failing to properly secure their firearms .. ??

This is an interesting comment - the question for me would come down to Negligence.

Let's say someone pulls up to a shopping mall, keys in the truck, doors unlocked and a Rifle sat on the dashboard and someone swipes the rifle - should they be charged? I'd say yes.

Compare that with 99.99% of licenced firearm owners who would keep their rifle in a case in the boot or back of the car, possibly with something on top of it. The Car locked etc. and should they need to leave their vehicle unattended, will either keep it under visual observation OR take the case with them. If somehow a Firearm gets stolen in that instance, then it would seem they took all reasonable steps - if the Police could demonstrate that despite taking reasonable steps that this was a major vector for Firearms going to unlicenced people - and the Firearm community wasn't taking active steps to prevent this - at this point legislation *may* be appropriate.

[TheDemonLord]

That was very interesting. In fact it's exactly what I thought you were doing. Ignore all that, it's complete bollocks of course.
Once again, just read the words I wrote.

Which was a comparison, related to Firearms, between the US and NZ, correct?

In response to Jason's comment, yes?

And implicit in that comparison in the manner you made it, whether you like it or not, is an idea that Less guns = more safety.

If you believe that to be true, then you should hand in your licence, because that would make NZ Safer.

If you don't believe it then why make the comparison...

[FJRider]

This is an interesting comment - the question for me would come down to Negligence.

Let's say someone pulls up to a shopping mall, keys in the truck, doors unlocked and a Rifle sat on the dashboard and someone swipes the rifle - should they be charged? I'd say yes.

Compare that with 99.99% of licenced firearm owners who would keep their rifle in a case in the boot or back of the car, possibly with something on top of it. The Car locked etc. and should they need to leave their vehicle unattended, will either keep it under visual observation OR take the case with them. If somehow a Firearm gets stolen in that instance, then it would seem they took all reasonable steps - if the Police could demonstrate that despite taking reasonable steps that this was a major vector for Firearms going to unlicenced people - and the Firearm community wasn't taking active steps to prevent this - at this point legislation *may* be appropriate.

In this modern world ... hand held battery grinders and cutters are as common as muck. In less than 5 minutes with one (regardless of any publicity splurb on the boxes) ... most of those "Security boxes" would be open. "Reasonable steps and Care" ... only goes so far.

A big kick-arse security box in your car isn't there to store your grocery shopping. The one's that know that ... usually are the one's you don't want anywhere near it.

The biggest group of people having weapons stolen from their vehicles were rural farming staff. Two or three shotguns ... a .22 ... and maybe a .303 or .308 hanging on the rack in the back window or on (or under) the seat. That was ... and in some places ... still is normal.

The majority of card carrying licensed firearms owners are rural folk. Anything they shoot is destined either for the offal pit ... or the dinner table.

Your talk of "Firearms Community" is pure garbage. You either own a firearm or you don't.

[FJRider]

See: .................

Which sparked my retort.

Piss on your retort.

You changed the subject ... as you've done again ... ;)

[FJRider]

And what about the guy who was raided, at gunpoint, for a now-prohibited Firearm that he used as part of his submission process - that he was no longer in possession of?

Weapons like M16's and AK47's (and the like) are NOT prohibited. With the CORRECT class of license ... you CAN legally own and use them. BUT ... NOT with a magazine holding more than 10 rounds.

Thusly ... your guy that got raided (at gunpoint ... presumably by Police .. ??) probably had raised a few red flags in the system ... for the Police to take that action. And would have deserved everything he got.


As for the rest - It's now on the books that people can be charged for not handing in the parts. They were not paid a negotiated fee. Prohibited Ammo was not compensated for, and if you recall, at the Buy Back events, there were armed police.

YEP ... the "AMNESTY" is OVER the day of the final weapon hand in. They ALL had their chance to hand that shit in. Those that still have such stuff ... there will be NO leniency for anybody ... for possession of banned weapon parts

And from me (and the general public) ... no sympathy either.


So you'll forgive me if I think the use of the word 'voluntary' in this case is a both absurd and utterly perverse.

They had the freedom of two choices ... Voluntary hand in the weapons and parts ... and get paid MONEY for them.

OR ...


Armed Police "Visit" those known to own (or thought to own) such weapons and parts ... and then they face serious firearms charges. The repercussions of such are now being faced by a few.



Freedom of choice for all involved. Which would YOU have chosen to do ... ??

If some are facing serious firearms charges now ... Oh dear ... how sad. A real bugger ... eh ... :killingme

Absurd and perverse goes well with your usual train of thought. Nothing new there ... :shifty:

[scumdog]

These new 'laws' are the thin edge of the wedge - 'the frog in the pot of hot water' stuff.

UN wants all guns removed from citizens and Jacinda and crew are obliging, bit by bit....I feel so much safer already.<_<

Just hope they don't start on motorbikes.....

[husaberg]

These new 'laws' are the thin edge of the wedge - 'the frog in the pot of hot water' stuff.

UN wants all guns removed from citizens and Jacinda and crew are obliging, bit by bit....I feel so much safer already.<_<

Just hope they don't start on motorbikes.....

Seeing as you now suggest you can now predict the future, what are next weeks lotto numbers?

[scumdog]

Seeing as you now suggest you can now predict the future, what are next weeks lotto numbers?


Now you're being silly - you know I can do predictions like the sun will rise in the morning and the tides will rise and fall.

But Lotto numbers are a bit trickier - and when I find out how to predict them I won't be telling YOU!:bleh:

[pritch]

Which was a comparison, related to Firearms, between the US and NZ, correct?

In response to Jason's comment, yes?

And implicit in that comparison in the manner you made it, whether you like it or not, is an idea that Less guns = more safety.

If you believe that to be true, then you should hand in your licence, because that would make NZ Safer.

If you don't believe it then why make the comparison...


To call what you are doing here "overthinking" what I wrote would be to give it too much credit. Basically what I said was, I'd rather live here than there. Believe it or not that's all I meant. All that other nonsense is a figment of your over active imagination, it has nothing to do with me.

[FJRider]

... But Lotto numbers are a bit trickier - and when I find out how to predict them I won't be telling YOU!:bleh:

Make him wait until next week. Then tell him ... :shifty:

[TheDemonLord]

To call what you are doing here "overthinking" what I wrote would be to give it too much credit. Basically what I said was, I'd rather live here than there. Believe it or not that's all I meant. All that other nonsense is a figment of your over active imagination, it has nothing to do with me.

Okay then - let's put this to the test then, shall we?

Has the buy back made NZ safer?

Yes or No.

[FJRider]

Okay then - let's put this to the test then, shall we?

Has the buy back made NZ safer?

Yes or No.

Put it another way ... Is NZ in any increased danger from a terrorist type attack than it was previously ... ??

[TheDemonLord]

Put it another way ... Is NZ in any increased danger from a terrorist type attack than it was previously ... ??

Yes.

plus 10 chars

[TheDemonLord]

In this modern world ... hand held battery grinders and cutters are as common as muck. In less than 5 minutes with one (regardless of any publicity splurb on the boxes) ... most of those "Security boxes" would be open. "Reasonable steps and Care" ... only goes so far.

Sure, All security can be bypassed eventually - As someone in IT, I'm more than aware of this - the key concepts are Deterrent (stopping the opportunist) and the time required to break in.


The biggest group of people having weapons stolen from their vehicles were rural farming staff. Two or three shotguns ... a .22 ... and maybe a .303 or .308 hanging on the rack in the back window or on (or under) the seat. That was ... and in some places ... still is normal.

Right - so firstly, do we have any hard stats that this is the means by which the items are stolen? Next is we need to understand why people might store them in this way:

Habit?
Low security risk due to being in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere?
Need quick and easy access?

We should assume that the people doing this are rational, and that they have a reason for doing what they do - dictating laws from up high with no appreciation is bad - hence why I stated that first a community lead solution is preferable - other people who have similar circumstances might be able to provide alternatives.


The majority of card carrying licensed firearms owners are rural folk. Anything they shoot is destined either for the offal pit ... or the dinner table.

Your talk of "Firearms Community" is pure garbage. You either own a firearm or you don't.

I know what you mean about Community - and I'm not too fond of the word - but what other word is there?

[TheDemonLord]

Weapons like M16's and AK47's (and the like) are NOT prohibited. With the CORRECT class of license ... you CAN legally own and use them. BUT ... NOT with a magazine holding more than 10 rounds.

And what is the correct class of licence? Begins with a P, ends in rohibited.

The Magazine restriction also is wrong. All detachable centrefire magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds are now a Prohibited item. If you have a P Endorsement to own a Centrefire Semi Auto, you can also have a magazine with more than 10 rounds.


Thusly ... your guy that got raided (at gunpoint ... presumably by Police .. ??) probably had raised a few red flags in the system ... for the Police to take that action. And would have deserved everything he got.

It was a Lever action Rifle - y'know a Cowboy gun, unchanged since the 1800s - His crime? He said he didn't like the NZ Police. Yeah - Totally got everything he deserved....


YEP ... the "AMNESTY" is OVER the day of the final weapon hand in. They ALL had their chance to hand that shit in. Those that still have such stuff ... there will be NO leniency for anybody ... for possession of banned weapon parts

Right - and so we all know that they will be out to get a few high-profile scalps, meanwhile the Gangs will still be having a field day shooting each other, knowing the Police are going after the easy targets.


They had the freedom of two choices ... Voluntary hand in the weapons and parts ... and get paid MONEY for them.
OR ...
Armed Police "Visit" those known to own (or thought to own) such weapons and parts ... and then they face serious firearms charges. The repercussions of such are now being faced by a few.

Ah yes, so the Jews Voluntarily went into the Gas Chambers, according to your reasoning.


Freedom of choice for all involved. Which would YOU have chosen to do ... ??

If some are facing serious firearms charges now ... Oh dear ... how sad. A real bugger ... eh ... :killingme

Absurd and perverse goes well with your usual train of thought. Nothing new there ... :shifty:

Yeah, Bullshit.

[FJRider]

And what is the correct class of licence? Begins with a P, ends in rohibited.

I know personally three people with the weapons I've mentioned and with the correct license ... Police have full knowledge of them and have no issue with them being in his possession.


It was a Lever action Rifle - y'know a Cowboy gun, unchanged since the 1800s - His crime? He said he didn't like the NZ Police. Yeah - Totally got everything he deserved....

I'm glad you agree ... :devil2: But ... In cases like this ... you seldom hear the full story. Because Police dont like to reveal how/where they get their information.


Right - and so we all know that they will be out to get a few high-profile scalps, meanwhile the Gangs will still be having a field day shooting each other, knowing the Police are going after the easy targets.

Gangs are a danger to themselves. Shooting each other up saves Police resources (and Police Bullets).


Ah yes, so the Jews Voluntarily went into the Gas Chambers, according to your reasoning.

You have a really sick mind if you see similarities between the two. The Jews were not offered money for their time, possessions, or their lives.


Yeah, Bullshit.

All your posts generally are ... <_<

[FJRider]

Sure, All security can be bypassed eventually - As someone in IT, I'm more than aware of this - the key concepts are Deterrent (stopping the opportunist) and the time required to break in.

Quite a few people think its safe and ok to run red lights if the opportunity presents itself. Sometimes it works out. And that's because some value their life and liberty less than others. And others think they won't get caught. Sometimes they aren't.

Opportunist thieves try for the obvious. Leaving stuff on the back seat or back window is tantamount to an invitation to steal it. Would you expect sympathy from Police if you stuff got stolen in this manner .. ??


Right - so firstly, do we have any hard stats that this is the means by which the items are stolen? Next is we need to understand why people might store them in this way:

Habit?
Low security risk due to being in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere?
Need quick and easy access?

We should assume that the people doing this are rational, and that they have a reason for doing what they do - dictating laws from up high with no appreciation is bad - hence why I stated that first a community lead solution is preferable - other people who have similar circumstances might be able to provide alternatives.

I know of five cases where this has happened. Three cases turned out to be their friends that took them ... so they wouldn't get stolen.

Yep ... intelligent and rational. Just didn't see it as a big issue.



I know what you mean about Community - and I'm not too fond of the word - but what other word is there?


Try ... Firearms OWNERS.

A firearms owner is just as likely to be found in an office in Queen street Auckland ... as in the back blocks of Ranfurly Otago.

Calling them a community suggests they live/work closely together with the same goals. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But the journilist that coined the phrase ... probably didn't know that.

[FJRider]

Yes.

plus 10 chars

Prove it ...

[R650R]

Great comment seen today on our local police page...
“ it’s not a buyback as the police never owned the guns. It’s a PAID Confiscation”

[TheDemonLord]

I'm glad you agree ... :devil2: But ... In cases like this ... you seldom hear the full story. Because Police dont like to reveal how/where they get their information.

We know where they got the information - his Public Submission... Which is a massive breach of principles.


Gangs are a danger to themselves. Shooting each other up saves Police resources (and Police Bullets).

Ah yes, because Bullets fired by Gangs can only hurt or kill other Gang Members, never innocent people....


You have a really sick mind if you see similarities between the two. The Jews were not offered money for their time, possessions, or their lives.


And if they were, by your standards, that would have been A-Okay, completely voluntary, done at Gunpoint.

[TheDemonLord]

Quite a few people think its safe and ok to run red lights if the opportunity presents itself. Sometimes it works out. And that's because some value their life and liberty less than others. And others think they won't get caught. Sometimes they aren't.

Opportunist thieves try for the obvious. Leaving stuff on the back seat or back window is tantamount to an invitation to steal it. Would you expect sympathy from Police if you stuff got stolen in this manner .. ??

Sympathy, no - but I would expect them to do their job.


I know of five cases where this has happened. Three cases turned out to be their friends that took them ... so they wouldn't get stolen.

Yep ... intelligent and rational. Just didn't see it as a big issue.

So, realistically, 2 cases. However the question would be for these people - why did they do what they did? Would a fiat of the Law change their behavior? Is there another means to encourage better practices or have appropriate penalties for failing to take reasonable precautions?



Try ... Firearms OWNERS.

A firearms owner is just as likely to be found in an office in Queen street Auckland ... as in the back blocks of Ranfurly Otago.

Calling them a community suggests they live/work closely together with the same goals. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But the journilist that coined the phrase ... probably didn't know that.

I think I can safely say that there are the shared goals of:

An enjoyment of Guns and Shooting
and
A Desire to ensure that their rights are protected.

[TheDemonLord]

Prove it ...

Can you point to a time in history where arbitrarily removing the rights from a group of people went well?

Turns out the resentment at being persecuted by the state for something you didn't do (and subsequently we have definitive proof that the State were Negligent as Fuck) is a great breeding ground for certain ideas.

And some people might dwell on those ideas long enough with a view to act on them.

[FJRider]

Can you point to a time in history where arbitrarily removing the rights from a group of people went well?

Firearms ownership rules and laws have little to do with your "Rights". You have of course the "Right" to apply for a firearms license ... but do not have the right to have one ... "As of Right".

If laws are changed ... you do not have the right to break the law. For example ... if an open road speed limit is lowered in any area ... you no longer have the legal "Right" to travel at the previous speed limit in THAT area. If you do ... you know the possible penalties for doing so. If you still choose to do that.


Turns out the resentment at being persecuted by the state for something you didn't do (and subsequently we have definitive proof that the State were Negligent as Fuck) is a great breeding ground for certain ideas.

Fuck you come out with some shit. You must be sick in the head if you actually believe half of what you post ... :killingme

Areas with a high accident rate ... now get a speed limit reduction as an automatic reaction to the "Problem". Do the motorists that had been obeying the speed limits and driving to the conditions ... believe they have the right to feel "Persecuted" ... punished for other peoples stupidity and ignorance .. ???

Actually ... maybe ... YOU probably DO ... <_<



And some people might dwell on those ideas long enough with a view to act on them.

Perhaps it is time more people are held more accountable for their actions. Throw away the wet bus ticket ... and use a big hammer.

They might not be so keen then to start acting on their "Ideas" ... :blank:

[TheDemonLord]

Firearms ownership rules and laws have little to do with your "Rights". You have of course the "Right" to apply for a firearms license ... but do not have the right to have one ... "As of Right".

If laws are changed ... you do not have the right to break the law. For example ... if an open road speed limit is lowered in any area ... you no longer have the legal "Right" to travel at the previous speed limit in THAT area. If you do ... you know the possible penalties for doing so. If you still choose to do that.

You appear to be subscribing to the Continental notion that Rights are granted and revoked by the State.

I subscribe to the British notion that Rights are Natural and are only protected by the State. The State may say I can no longer do something, but I still consider it my right to do it.



Fuck you come out with some shit. You must be sick in the head if you actually believe half of what you post ... :killingme

Areas with a high accident rate ... now get a speed limit reduction as an automatic reaction to the "Problem". Do the motorists that had been obeying the speed limits and driving to the conditions ... believe they have the right to feel "Persecuted" ... punished for other peoples stupidity and ignorance .. ???

Actually ... maybe ... YOU probably DO ... <_<

Now let's bring your analogy a little closer to the reality - the Government builds a road in one area that is not safe to drive on, making the surface out of slippery glass, instead of Asphalt, with a major accident occuring.

As a result the Government takes all cars from everyone in the country, at gun point, paying you 75% of the value of the car and telling you that you can have a Moped or use public transport.

That's a little bit closer - see how it sounds unjustifiable?



Perhaps it is time more people are held more accountable for their actions. Throw away the wet bus ticket ... and use a big hammer.

I completely agree....

Starting with those in the Beehive.

[FJRider]

Sympathy, no - but I would expect them to do their job.

You mean ... make some inquiries ... :laugh:


So, realistically, 2 cases. However the question would be for these people - why did they do what they did? Would a fiat of the Law change their behavior? Is there another means to encourage better practices or have appropriate penalties for failing to take reasonable precautions?

The same reason people exceed the posted speed limits ... because it suits them at the time. They know it's not right (or their right to do so) ... but they do anyway.


I think I can safely say that there are the shared goals of:

An enjoyment of Guns and Shooting
and
A Desire to ensure that their rights are protected.

BULLSHIT .. !!! Some have the goal of shooting a few Rabbits ... Wild Pigs maybe ... a Deer even.

Others have the goal to shoot a few Muslims ... :devil2:

And see my other post regarding my views on "Rights" ... :laugh:

[FJRider]

We know where they got the information - his Public Submission... Which is a massive breach of principles.

You have principals .. ?? Who knew .. ?? :blank:


Ah yes, because Bullets fired by Gangs can only hurt or kill other Gang Members, never innocent people....

There's only a few of us "Innocent" ones left. Give me the date of the last innocent bystander shot in a gang shooting .. :rolleyes:


And if they were, by your standards, that would have been A-Okay, completely voluntary, done at Gunpoint.

I spent a bit of time in the Army ... it was my job to use all the military weapons now frowned on in private ownership (and more besides).

The thrill has gone. That often happens ... when the targets shoot back ... :laugh:

I have never possessed a firearms license. Nor do I intend to apply for one. But if I had weapons that were being removed from the class I WAS licensed for ... and they were paying cash money for them ... I sure WOULD BE ok with it.

[FJRider]

You appear to be subscribing to the Continental notion that Rights are granted and revoked by the State.

You do not have a RIGHT to own a firearm as of right. You can't lose what you never had.


I subscribe to the British notion that Rights are Natural and are only protected by the State. The State may say I can no longer do something, but I still consider it my right to do it.

Now let's bring your analogy a little closer to the reality - the Government builds a road in one area that is not safe to drive on, making the surface out of slippery glass, instead of Asphalt, with a major accident occuring.

As a result the Government takes all cars from everyone in the country, at gun point, paying you 75% of the value of the car and telling you that you can have a Moped or use public transport.

That's a little bit closer - see how it sounds unjustifiable?

I missed the REALITY part of that post. Care to point it out .. :blink:

You are not only sick in the head ... you have a vivid an imagination as well ... :pinch:

There are drugs that can help that ... ;)



I completely agree....

Starting with those in the Beehive.

A good place to start ... ;)

[TheDemonLord]

The same reason people exceed the posted speed limits ... because it suits them at the time. They know it's not right (or their right to do so) ... but they do anyway.

Sure, I can hear that argument, has Speed enforcement stopped people speeding? If no, then it seems the threat of getting caught or the penalty isn't the solution.


TBULLSHIT .. !!! Some have the goal of shooting a few Rabbits ... Wild Pigs maybe ... a Deer even.

Others have the goal to shoot a few Muslims ... :devil2:


Pretty sure that comes under the auspices of 'enjoyment of Shooting'

As for the last part - his ultimate goal was a world-wide race war, resulting in mass de-population to allow the Environment to Flourish.

He had quite a lot in common with the likes of Greenpeace and Extinction rebellion. Just a thought.

[TheDemonLord]

You have principals .. ?? Who knew .. ?? :blank:

Not mine, the Governments


There's only a few of us "Innocent" ones left. Give me the date of the last innocent bystander shot in a gang shooting .. :rolleyes:

Do you want to take the chance?

A friend of mine got woken up by what he thought was a car backfiring - turns out it was a Gang shooting, he went outside to see what happened (didn't realise it was Gunfire) - what if they had taken a shot at him?


I spent a bit of time in the Army ... it was my job to use all the military weapons now frowned on in private ownership (and more besides).

The thrill has gone. That often happens ... when the targets shoot back ... :laugh:

I have never possessed a firearms license. Nor do I intend to apply for one. But if I had weapons that were being removed from the class I WAS licensed for ... and they were paying cash money for them ... I sure WOULD BE ok with it.

And firstly - I'm genuinely thankful for your service.

For the last part however - It's easy to say you'd be okay with it, when you have no skin in the game. When you've invested your own time, money and effort into something, it changes things.

[TheDemonLord]

You do not have a RIGHT to own a firearm as of right. You can't lose what you never had.

I missed the REALITY part of that post. Care to point it out .. :blink:

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory2/chapter/natural-rights/

There you go, knock yourself out.

Only the foundational basis of Western Civilization that spawned the unique idea that each person had a number of god-given or natural rights which the State cannot infringe upon. Which lead to the greatest advances in Human Rights (derived from the concept of a Natural Right) and decreasing in Human Suffering.

It is only the idea that *literally* underpins every freedom that we enjoy...
It is only the idea that is the philosophical reason as to why we hold such revulsion when a state infringes upon those natural rights.

Afterall, if all rights are granted by the State, that includes the right to life, and if it is granted by the state, it can be revoked by the State.


You are not only sick in the head ... you have a vivid an imagination as well ... :pinch:

There are drugs that can help that ... ;)

Just filling in the few omissions to make your story a little more aligned to what actually happened.


A good place to start ... ;)

At least we agree on that.

[FJRider]

Sure, I can hear that argument, has Speed enforcement stopped people speeding? If no, then it seems the threat of getting caught or the penalty isn't the solution.

Some will never pay their fines ... because they have no money.

Some are even happy to go to jail for a few months to get their fines cancelled. Go figure ...:blank:

Fines are a good idea in principal. For those that HAVE principals.


Pretty sure that comes under the auspices of 'enjoyment of Shooting'

Those shooting rabbits ... wont be having much to do with those shooting Muslims. Hardly a "Shared Enjoyment" ... :rolleyes:

Would YOU be happy to go shooting with him ... :scratch:


As for the last part - his ultimate goal was a world-wide race war, resulting in mass de-population to allow the Environment to Flourish.

His imagination must be as huge and demented as yours. You probably WOULD like to go shooting with him ...:lol:



He had quite a lot in common with the likes of Greenpeace and Extinction rebellion. Just a thought.

To my knowledge ... Greenpeace don't use firearms. And you don't think.

[FJRider]

Not mine, the Governments

Principals of convenience. A bit like yours ... :lol:


Do you want to take the chance?

Even those intentionally shooting at me missed. I'll take that chance ... :lol:


A friend of mine got woken up by what he thought was a car backfiring - turns out it was a Gang shooting, he went outside to see what happened (didn't realise it was Gunfire) - what if they had taken a shot at him?

They didn't because he wasn't the target ... :lol:


And firstly - I'm genuinely thankful for your service.

Don't thank me ... I didn't do it for you. It just seemed like a good idea at the time.


For the last part however - It's easy to say you'd be okay with it. when you have no skin in the game. When you've invested your own time, money and effort into something, it changes things.

I mailed home a complete M60. About 30 (or more) years ago they had an arms amnesty. I handed it in. They paid me nothing. Not even what it cost me in postage to mail it home ... It changed nothing.

Maybe it was just my principals ... :lol:

[FJRider]

It was on the TV1 news this morning ... that the Amnesty for weapons ends tomorrow.

[TheDemonLord]

It was on the TV1 news this morning ... that the Amnesty for weapons ends tomorrow.

So the only figures I could find for how many were handed back in the latest amnesty...

463.


It's even more pitiful than the ~60,000 that were handed back in the last buy back - at best, less than 30% handed in.

[TheDemonLord]

Some will never pay their fines ... because they have no money.

Some are even happy to go to jail for a few months to get their fines cancelled. Go figure ...:blank:

Fines are a good idea in principal. For those that HAVE principals.

And what happens then, after Jail time or other consequences?


Those shooting rabbits ... wont be having much to do with those shooting Muslims. Hardly a "Shared Enjoyment" ... :rolleyes:

Except the shooting part. Both parties (by their own statements and not one I agree with) would say they were dealing with an invasive pest.


Would YOU be happy to go shooting with him ... :scratch:

Definitely not.


His imagination must be as huge and demented as yours. You probably WOULD like to go shooting with him ...:lol:

Not really, he accurately predicted the NZ Government's response, his hope that this would trigger an attempt to do the same in the US was a little hopeful - but the likes of the BLM riots - that was exactly what he wanted to happen - only he wanted it to devolve into a full-scale civil war.

His imagination was neither huge nor demented - that is perhaps the scariest part.



To my knowledge ... Greenpeace don't use firearms. And you don't think.

His ultimate goal was that of reducing the global population to allow nature to Flourish. I can point to Articles in the likes of the Guardian that support a reduction of the Populace to help 'save the climate', there's also implied statements from Greenpeace on this as well.

I've been quite vocal on my dislike of those types of people, hence why I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the Fuckwit.

[TheDemonLord]

Principals of convenience. A bit like yours ... :lol:

Mine are fairly consistent, as evidenced by the number of people I disagree with, but still champion their rights to disagree with me.


Even those intentionally shooting at me missed. I'll take that chance ... :lol:

That's because yours was a Voluntary action - you chose to sign up, go through basic etc.

Someone sitting at home, minding their own business to be woken up by a Gang Shooting - did they volunteer for that?


They didn't because he wasn't the target ... :lol:

But he was a Witness... Snitches get Stiches as the phrase goes.


Don't thank me ... I didn't do it for you. It just seemed like a good idea at the time.

Regardless of your reasons, it's still something I'm grateful for.


I mailed home a complete M60. About 30 (or more) years ago they had an arms amnesty. I handed it in. They paid me nothing. Not even what it cost me in postage to mail it home ... It changed nothing.

Maybe it was just my principals ... :lol:

Maybe - but did you actually buy the M60?

[FJRider]

Mine are fairly consistent, as evidenced by the number of people I disagree with, but still champion their rights to disagree with me.

And I consistently tend to disagree with you. As is my right. As do others disagree with you. As is their right.

If a large number of people disagree with you ... perhaps you might consider that it is YOU that might be wrong.


That's because yours was a Voluntary action - you chose to sign up, go through basic etc.

That wasn't why I joined. The action in question didn't "Officially" happen. There was no war. The "Official Secrets act" (of which I signed) ... prevents it being public knowledge. The full where and why ... you don't need to know.



Someone sitting at home, minding their own business to be woken up by a Gang Shooting - did they volunteer for that?

As above ... I'm probably just as much a witness as your mate. When the shooting started ... I didn't want to be there either.


But he was a Witness... Snitches get Stiches as the phrase goes.

See above ...


Regardless of your reasons, it's still something I'm grateful for.

I wasn't there for gratitude. Yours or anybody elses.


Maybe - but did you actually buy the M60?

The Military term is "Captured" ...<_<

As I have ALREADY said ... you do not realize how much it cost me in postage to get it home ... <_< Costs are costs ... :devil2:

[FJRider]

And what happens then, after Jail time or other consequences?

Usually ... MORE fines ... ;)


Except the shooting part. Both parties (by their own statements and not one I agree with) would say they were dealing with an invasive pest.

So ... you do NOT/WOULD not have a shared enjoyment of shooting with HIM. What makes YOU different to shooting with any OTHER shooter ... ;) Only the target varies.


Definitely not.

So much for "Shared Enjoyment of Shooting" ...


Not really, he accurately predicted the NZ Government's response ...

That he'd be in custody by nightfall ... ???


His imagination was neither huge nor demented - that is perhaps the scariest part.

Sounds like you agree with his aim ... (excuse the pun) ... or like his demented imagination ... you might have more in common with him than you think ... ;)


His ultimate goal was that of reducing the global population to allow nature to Flourish. I can point to Articles in the likes of the Guardian that support a reduction of the Populace to help 'save the climate', there's also implied statements from Greenpeace on this as well.

So ... Greenpeace need more wars to help achieve their aim ... (excuse the pun ... again) ... ;)


I've been quite vocal on my dislike of those types of people

I hadn't noticed .... but with your shared enjoyment of shooting ... you might get on well with him ... :yes:

[FJRider]

So the only figures I could find for how many were handed back in the latest amnesty...

463.

Wars have been started with less ... :lol:



It's even more pitiful than the ~60,000 that were handed back in the last buy back - at best, less than 30% handed in.

Your guess ... at best. The only concern is which group is it that still have the most undeclared firearms in their possession .. ?? Gangs or your average law abiding (sic) citizen ... ??


Regardless of the actual class of weapons in their possession ... the important detail that actually isn't known (just uneducated guesses so far) is numbers. For EITHER group.

[R650R]

Incredible story, well worth watching, lucky guy...


https://youtu.be/1449kJKxlMQ

[pritch]

Incredible story, well worth watching, lucky guy...


Scary stuff. I've seen a thread about that on a firearms related site I watch, it's slightly concerning that there is no explanation of the cause. The round was a sub calibre, sabot style, armour piercing round, apparently a double charge should not be possible, so why the gun exploded remains a mystery.

[onearmedbandit]

Can you point to a time in history where arbitrarily removing the rights from a group of people went well?



The right to own slaves?

[FJRider]

The right to own slaves?

Well ... the slaves liked it ... :blank:

[Laava]

The right to own slaves?
****tumbleweeds****

[husaberg]

To be fair his keyboard may have caught fire

[TheDemonLord]

And I consistently tend to disagree with you. As is my right. As do others disagree with you. As is their right.

If a large number of people disagree with you ... perhaps you might consider that it is YOU that might be wrong.

Or Righteous.

That's also a possibility.


That wasn't why I joined. The action in question didn't "Officially" happen. There was no war. The "Official Secrets act" (of which I signed) ... prevents it being public knowledge. The full where and why ... you don't need to know.

Where you conscripted at gunpoint?

Even when there was the Draft and Conscription, there were still conscientious Objectors


As above ... I'm probably just as much a witness as your mate. When the shooting started ... I didn't want to be there either.
See above ...

How many times has this happened since you've been living at your own home? That's where the comparison pales a little.


I wasn't there for gratitude. Yours or anybody elses.

And yet, you have it anyway.


The Military term is "Captured" ...<_<

As I have ALREADY said ... you do not realize how much it cost me in postage to get it home ... <_< Costs are costs ... :devil2:

There's a discrete psychological difference between the two.

Similar to why people will buy something that is 99c but not if it's a Dollar.

You didn't pay anything to own it, you already owned it, postage was just to transfer it.

[TheDemonLord]

The right to own slaves?

There's 2 ways to answer this: the first is to point out the very many people that fought a series of wars over that 'right'

The second is to point to the concept of Natural Rights which does not and cannot include Slavery.

Since I hold the position of ascribing to the concept of Natural Rights (which includes the right to self-defence and from that flows the right to own Weaponary, including Firearms. It also includes property rights), then I can stand on that ideal and say what was done in NZ was wrong, whilst still condemning Slavery.

[TheDemonLord]

Scary stuff. I've seen a thread about that on a firearms related site I watch, it's slightly concerning that there is no explanation of the cause. The round was a sub calibre, sabot style, armour piercing round, apparently a double charge should not be possible, so why the gun exploded remains a mystery.

Gun Jesus (Ian McCollum) from Forgotten Weapons did an excellent break down of the most likely cause(s), as well as digressing about the other types of failures

Either someone re-filled the round with the wrong powder or
Some Gun Powder compounds when they degrade can become more unstable - resulting in a higher peak pressure than normal, which caused the catastrophic failure.

If you look at the orignal video - you'll see that one of the rounds had a significantly bigger 'bang' than the others - I suspect that was also either an incorrectly handloaded/reloaded cartridge or the powder was iffy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71OGayW7CnI

[TheDemonLord]

Usually ... MORE fines ... ;)

Ah yes, the age old Government response 'what we are doing isn't working, let's do it some more!'




So ... you do NOT/WOULD not have a shared enjoyment of shooting with HIM. What makes YOU different to shooting with any OTHER shooter ... ;) Only the target varies.

I suspect most of the Firearm owners wouldn't have any shared Enjoyment of shooting with him...


That he'd be in custody by nightfall ... ???

He stated he wanted the NZ Government to ban certain types of rifles, which they practically fell over themselves to do. He then states his hope was that this would create a ripple effect in the US, where they would also try and do a confiscation and that would spark a civil war.


Sounds like you agree with his aim ... (excuse the pun) ... or like his demented imagination ... you might have more in common with him than you think ... ;)

I completely disagree with his aim. I don't buy into the Climate Crisis/extinction rebellion/depopulation narrative.

That is not to say that the means by which he stated he wanted to achieve his objectives and his prediction of the reaction to his act didn't have an internally consistent logic and a number of accurate predictions.


So ... Greenpeace need more wars to help achieve their aim ... (excuse the pun ... again) ... ;)

Greenpeace want less humans so that nature can flourish, some of them aren't too picky about the ways and means.


I hadn't noticed .... but with your shared enjoyment of shooting ... you might get on well with him ... :yes:

[TheDemonLord]

Wars have been started with less ... :lol:

Quite...



Your guess ... at best. The only concern is which group is it that still have the most undeclared firearms in their possession .. ?? Gangs or your average law abiding (sic) citizen ... ??


Regardless of the actual class of weapons in their possession ... the important detail that actually isn't known (just uneducated guesses so far) is numbers. For EITHER group.

The ~60,000 is from the Government sources. The other estimates of 180,000 (based on import documentation over 10 years from all of the major Firearm retailers), The Media and the Government had the figure of 250,000 pre-buyback (funny how they've been awfully quiet on touting that number after the initial period....).

The 250,000 estimate was the lower limit of between 600,000 (upper limit) and 250,000 (the one the media picked... maybe to convince NZ it wasn't going to cost half a Billion Dollars if everything was handed in), with a middle estimate of around 400,000.

Even using the lowest estimate (which based on it's manner of calculation is fairly accuracte) - less than 30% handed in.

As for the concern - I have zero concern about Fit and proper persons retaining ownership of something that was undemocratically stripped of them.

I have every concern about criminals (who commits 97% of all Firearm crime in NZ) retaining ownership.

[FJRider]

Or Righteous.

That's also a possibility.

Righteous seldom means being right ... or even in the right.

Distinct possibility even ...


Where you conscripted at gunpoint?

Even when there was the Draft and Conscription, there were still conscientious Objectors

Your comprehension skills are lacking somewhat ... try reading what I posted.

I joined the Army of my own free will. But I didn't join to be shot at. But I did know it might happen some time. There was NO war at this time ... so when the shooting started ... I didn't want to be there.


How many times has this happened since you've been living at your own home? That's where the comparison pales a little.

Not often. There are a few people living near a Mosque in Christchurch ... that never thought they'd hear gunfire from their house. So it can happen. Your point is ... ??



And yet, you have it anyway.

Thank you for saying that.


There's a discrete psychological difference between the two.

Similar to why people will buy something that is 99c but not if it's a Dollar.

You didn't pay anything to own it, you already owned it, postage was just to transfer it.


I gave you the military term for acquisition of the weapon. You can't use psychology to describe how I acquired it ... if you do not know the actual circumstances involved. My description might be closer that you think. But you are talking about circumstances you were not involved in ... and know little (or nothing) about.

Par for the course in most of your posts ...

There is no 1 cent pieces any more ... and I can stand the loss of 1 cent. (I'm not as cheap as you).

I paid costs to get it home. Costs are costs ... freight cost are added to most items in the freighting of goods ... it just adds to it's value.

In this case ... I was not expecting any financial reimbursement from the weapon. Nor did I get any. As financial reimbursement was not the reason I handed it in.


But the look on the Cop's face when I produced it ... could only be described as PRICELESS ...

[TheDemonLord]

Righteous seldom means being right ... or even in the right.

Distinct possibility even ...

Someone raised the question of the right to own Slaves, those that opposed it were very much in the minority, both in England and Globally, were they Righteous? They stood on the same principles of Natural Rights that I stand on.


Your comprehension skills are lacking somewhat ... try reading what I posted.

I joined the Army of my own free will. But I didn't join to be shot at. But I did know it might happen some time. There was NO war at this time ... so when the shooting started ... I didn't want to be there.

There was a reason I wanted you to confirm that. Few people join to be shot at and I would imagine that when the shooting started even fewer people want to be there.

There is, however, a difference between volunteering for something, knowing the possibilities, and it being forced upon you. A Very deep and profound difference.


Not often. There are a few people living near a Mosque in Christchurch ... that never thought they'd hear gunfire from their house. So it can happen. Your point is ... ??

The increase in Gang related Firearm crime, as a direct result from the current Governments actions.


I gave you the military term for acquisition of the weapon. You can't use psychology to describe how I acquired it ... if you do not know the actual circumstances involved. My description might be closer that you think. But you are talking about circumstances you were not involved in ... and know little (or nothing) about.

Par for the course in most of your posts ...

There is no 1 cent pieces any more ... and I can stand the loss of 1 cent. (I'm not as cheap as you).

I paid costs to get it home. Costs are costs ... freight cost are added to most items in the freighting of goods ... it just adds to it's value.

In this case ... I was not expecting any financial reimbursement from the weapon. Nor did I get any. As financial reimbursement was not the reason I handed it in.

The last line says a lot - more specifically that the item, at the point in time, had no value to you (or at least no value that you were happy to loose) - and that is the key difference.

The Majority (over 70%) of owners clearly DO have a Value in what they own, a value so great, that they are willing to risk the consequences of retaining it.

The reasons why they hold such a value might vary - but suffice to say, your comparison doesn't hold weight, because you are comparing something you didn't value with something they did.


But the look on the Cop's face when I produced it ... could only be described as PRICELESS ...

I can only imagine :laugh::laugh:

[FJRider]

The ~60,000 is from the Government sources. The other estimates of 180,000 (based on import documentation over 10 years from all of the major Firearm retailers), The Media and the Government had the figure of 250,000 pre-buyback (funny how they've been awfully quiet on touting that number after the initial period....).

The 250,000 estimate was the lower limit of between 600,000 (upper limit) and 250,000 (the one the media picked... maybe to convince NZ it wasn't going to cost half a Billion Dollars if everything was handed in), with a middle estimate of around 400,000.

Even using the lowest estimate (which based on it's manner of calculation is fairly accuracte) - less than 30% handed in.

Their estimations on firearms numbers ... are as factual as their estimations on un-registered / un-warranted motor vehicles being used on the road.

As per your first paragraph ... their estimates have been (very) wrong before.

Some "New" information (like after a Police raid on a known Gang HQ) will shed light on possible truth of those numbers.


As for the concern - I have zero concern about Fit and proper persons retaining ownership of something that was undemocratically stripped of them.

The Laws that changed ... were changed by a Democratically Elected Government. Following the required due (and legal) process.


I have every concern about criminals (who commits 97% of all Firearm crime in NZ) retaining ownership.

Something to think about ... At some stage, firearms need maintenance and repair. Most people doing firearms repairs require to see a firearms license before working on them. Thusly ... two questions need be asked.

1) How many (percentage wise) such "Illegal weapons" cannot actually be fired ... ???

2) How many (percentage wise) can be still fired ... but are in a dangerous condition .. ??




Your above mentioned numbers that were originally estimated ... are being shown as "probably" not accurate.

If the same people are making the new estimates ... :mellow:

[FJRider]

Ah yes, the age old Government response 'what we are doing isn't working, let's do it some more!'

It is the high numbers still paying their fines ... that allow the Government to keep those in the Welfare system ... with the high standard of living that they are now able to enjoy.


He stated he wanted the NZ Government to ban certain types of rifles, which they practically fell over themselves to do. He then states his hope was that this would create a ripple effect in the US, where they would also try and do a confiscation and that would spark a civil war.

The post I quoted you on ... you stated he accurately predicted the POLICE response ... not the NZ Government response. More topic changing from you.


I completely disagree with his aim. I don't buy into the Climate Crisis/extinction rebellion/depopulation narrative.

Neither do I actually.


That is not to say that the means by which he stated he wanted to achieve his objectives and his prediction of the reaction to his act didn't have an internally consistent logic and a number of accurate predictions.

A good war can boost all the countries involved economy ... and lower the population. Win win eh ... !!!


Greenpeace want less humans so that nature can flourish, some of them aren't too picky about the ways and means.

They aren't picky about tactic's used to gain attention and publicity ... but I think they might balk at starting a war to achieve their intention.

[FJRider]

Someone raised the question of the right to own Slaves, those that opposed it were very much in the minority, both in England and Globally, were they Righteous? They stood on the same principles of Natural Rights that I stand on.

A lot of the slave owners in the 'States were "God Fearing people" ... but the ownership of a few hundred slaves didn't seem to affect their attendance in Church any. They saw it as their "Natural Right" to own slaves. And a Civil war was fought over it.

Wars do not prove who is right ... just who is stronger or who has better weapons and numbers.


There was a reason I wanted you to confirm that. Few people join to be shot at and I would imagine that when the shooting started even fewer people want to be there.

Surprisingly (even in NZ) ... a large number actually do. ALL kiwi's that went to Vietnam did so as volunteers. Some didn't come home.


There is, however, a difference between volunteering for something, knowing the possibilities, and it being forced upon you. A Very deep and profound difference.

The incident I referred to was not "Forced" on me. Any more than as is your (or my) involvement in a motor vehicle accident would be. It happened. Not planned ... but similar incidents have happened there before. We all only had one full magazine (18 rounds) of live ammo each. As per policy there at the time. The "In case of wild animal attack" policy.

And I will not stop driving ... even if there is a possibility I might be involved in a motor vehicle accident.

Not deep or profound. Just plain and simple.

You really do seem to have an active imagination though. Is it the drugs .. ??


The increase in Gang related Firearm crime, as a direct result from the current Governments actions.

No increase ... just better / more reporting of it.

Maybe more snitches too ...


The last line says a lot - more specifically that the item, at the point in time, had no value to you (or at least no value that you were happy to loose) - and that is the key difference.

At the time of handing it in ... I had a very well qualified Gunsmith render the weapon unusable. NO part of it could be used on any other weapon of it's type. But you'd need to look closely to see that. If you knew what to look for.

Value (as is beauty) is in the eye of the valuer/beholder. Basically ... I valued my continued freedom more and I wasn't willing to risk that to keep it in my possession. And I handed it in with no regrets.


The Majority (over 70%) of owners clearly DO have a Value in what they own, a value so great, that they are willing to risk the consequences of retaining it.

Personal choice. A lawful decision ... it wouldn't be. Another ... "They'll never catch me" situation. Maybe ... some won't. But it is NOT within their "RIGHT'S" to do so.


The reasons why they hold such a value might vary - but suffice to say, your comparison doesn't hold weight, because you are comparing something you didn't value with something they did.

See above my comment on "Value" ...


I can only imagine :laugh::laugh:

With your imagination ... I don't doubt that ...

I couldn't tell if he was drooling or dribbling. And his eye's ... :shit:

[pritch]

Gun Jesus (Ian McCollum) from Forgotten Weapons did an excellent break down of the most likely cause(s), as well as digressing about the other types of failures

Either someone re-filled the round with the wrong powder or
Some Gun Powder compounds when they degrade can become more unstable - resulting in a higher peak pressure than normal, which caused the catastrophic failure.

If you look at the orignal video - you'll see that one of the rounds had a significantly bigger 'bang' than the others - I suspect that was also either an incorrectly handloaded/reloaded cartridge or the powder was iffy.



I watched your clip but it didn't contribute anything new, we still have no precise idea what happened. Having said that, the various design refinements he showed were interesting.

From watching the original clip it seems that a variety of ammunition was being used. Heat can cause excessive pressure but the range appeared shaded and the ammunition was originaly designed for use in the desert so that shouldn't be a factor.

Is it even possible to reload SLAP rounds?

Guess we'll never know what happened.

[pritch]

Greenpeace want less humans so that nature can flourish, some of them aren't too picky about the ways and means.

People who hold such views tend to assume they and theirs will benefit from the reduction in numbers. As opposed to being some of those umm eliminated.

[TheDemonLord]

I watched your clip but it didn't contribute anything new, we still have no precise idea what happened. Having said that, the various design refinements he showed were interesting.

From watching the original clip it seems that a variety of ammunition was being used. Heat can cause excessive pressure but the range appeared shaded and the ammunition was originaly designed for use in the desert so that shouldn't be a factor.

Is it even possible to reload SLAP rounds?

Guess we'll never know what happened.

So it turns out that the designer/owner of Serbu Firearms (Mark Serbu) has a YT channel and posted a small update about it - the TL;DR version is that Kentucky Ballistics are going to send him the Rifle (what's left of it) and Ammo and he's going to do a deep dive into why it failed.

Here's the short clip - so you can decide if you want to keep updated on the deep dive


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AY6iEVhJE8

[scumdog]

I watched your clip but it didn't contribute anything new, we still have no precise idea what happened. Having said that, the various design refinements he showed were interesting.

From watching the original clip it seems that a variety of ammunition was being used. Heat can cause excessive pressure but the range appeared shaded and the ammunition was originaly designed for use in the desert so that shouldn't be a factor.

Is it even possible to reload SLAP rounds?

Guess we'll never know what happened.

It sure made for exciting watching!
I still wonder at the structural integrity of that kind of breech?

[pritch]

The NRA has lost it's bid to declare bankruptcy in New York. The judge declared it a bad faith attempt to fend off legal action by the New York Attorney General.

Next move the NY AG?

[pritch]

A look at gun control in the US. Factual not fable.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gun-control-old-west-180968013/

[Swoop]

It is rather interesting that the NZ police are not allowed to provide references to other staff members, if they are renewing their firearms licence.

It has been deemed a "conflict of interest"...

[pritch]

So here we have a case where the bad guy with a gun was actually stopped by a good guy with a gun - and the obvious but tragic consequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgNGYND_kwM

[scumdog]

So here we have a case where the bad guy with a gun was actually stopped by a good guy with a gun - and the obvious but tragic consequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgNGYND_kwM

Yep, tragic, just tragic...

[pritch]

This is just sick. I'd assume it's illegal but you know, the First Amendment and all that.

https://www.newsweek.com/torres-targets-guns-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-kamala-pelosi-biden-thunberg-1608202

[husaberg]

This is just sick. I'd assume it's illegal but you know, the First Amendment and all that.

https://www.newsweek.com/torres-targets-guns-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-kamala-pelosi-biden-thunberg-1608202

In a country where you can't burn the flag you are still allowed to sell targets of kids whose views might be unpopular. merica

[pritch]

Bad guy with a gun stopped by good guys with... bricks?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1275098#aoh=16273645101994&amp_ct=1627364549541&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

[pritch]

Bad guys with guns miscalculate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLnN0cGgoPs

[pritch]

Seeing photos of blokes open carrying their guns in the USA makes me uneasy. If they are silly enough to do that, they are likely silly enough to do it with the gun in an unsafe condition. One of the Proud Boys leaders attended a demo to abuse the press or similar, and shot himself in the foot.

[Kickaha]

In a country where you can't burn the flag you are still allowed to sell targets of kids whose views might be unpopular. merica

It was only illegal until 1969, then the right to burn the flag became protected under the first amendment

[husaberg]

It was only illegal until 1969, then the right to burn the flag became protected under the first amendment

Right you are although its only there 5–4 and there is another proposed amendment.

[pritch]

The recent fatal shooting accident that occured during filming of the low budget movie "Rust" has attracted a lot of comment most of which is irrelevant because few details are known as yet and the local cops will be making no announcement until Monday their time. The film crew had walked off the job over safety and other concerns prior to the incident. They had been replaced by non-union crew. There had reportedly been two "misfires". Some sources are referring to the misfires as accidental discharges which is a whole nutha thing.

Baldwin is not popular with US shooters, he is apparently an anti. He also took the piss out of Trump on TV which wouldn't endear him to them either. They are weighing in with a will - even if fact free.

It's unlikely there will be a single cause of the fatal shot. It's usual for several safety violations to have occurred before a fatality but we'll just have to wait.

[Swoop]

Baldwin is not popular with US shooters, he is apparently an anti.

Not "apparently" an anti, but a fully declared, frothing at the mouth, anti.
The irony of it all.

[TheDemonLord]

The biggest gripe I have had with the Alec Baldwin issue is the bad reporting around it.

Such as referring to it as a Prop Gun (It wasn't, it was a real gun, capable of accepting Live Ammunition)
Such as referring to it as a Misfire or Accidental Discharge.

I also don't agree with the treatment of Alec (although understandable, given his opinion on the subject), if you believe you are using a prop gun, that has been given to you by an on-set armorer and you go to use it as part of scene, then it's a Tragic Accident in one sense and a monumental Fuck-Up in another.

[pritch]

The biggest gripe I have had with the Alec Baldwin issue is the bad reporting around it.

Such as referring to it as a Prop Gun (It wasn't, it was a real gun, capable of accepting Live Ammunition)
Such as referring to it as a Misfire or Accidental Discharge.

I also don't agree with the treatment of Alec (although understandable, given his opinion on the subject), if you believe you are using a prop gun, that has been given to you by an on-set armorer and you go to use it as part of scene, then it's a Tragic Accident in one sense and a monumental Fuck-Up in another.



The reporting is truly abysmal, even though some are trying. It was the Daily Mail I think had illustrations of a live round and something purporting to be a blank round. That information though was incomplete. Movie makers also use something similar to what the army would call a drill round. That's a normal looking round complete with bullet but in Hollywood these should be loosely loaded with shot instead of powder. These are used in head on revolver shots where bullets need to be visible in the chambers. Since it's thought they were using single action revolvers that could apply.

The Daily Mail, to illustrate a western style pistol, published a picture of a cap and ball revolver. Close but no prize.

Anything used in filming is a prop. Some prop guns are rubber imitation pistols. Some are deactivated or modified weapons. Others, as in this case, are fully functioning firearms. Incidentally there are some really nice pistols in the old westerns made prior to the repiica market becoming a thing. Genuine antiques were the only option.

The interchangeable use of the terms misfire and accidental discharge is not helping. If appropriate, the US term negligent discharge would be even better.

Anecdotally it does seem though that there were multiple major safety lapses. Allegedly none of the normal safety procedures were followed, but we'll have to wait for the detail. The Sheriff now expects to be able to comment on Wednesday their time.

[Swoop]

Movie makers also use something similar to what the army would call a drill round. That's a normal looking round complete with bullet but in Hollywood these should be loosely loaded with shot instead of powder. These are used in head on revolver shots where bullets need to be visible in the chambers. Since it's thought they were using single action revolvers that could apply.

The interchangeable use of the terms misfire and accidental discharge is not helping.

It is coming to light that production crew mwmbers were "plinking" with live ammunition beforehand. A bad prctice to have live ammo on-set, but this is America/Kalifornia.

A drill round does not hold powder as it is either solid metal OR has holes drilled in the casing as it is specifically non-fireable.


It seems strange that another person who was NOT the armourer, handed the firearm to Baldwin and declared it "cold". There seem to be monumental, fatal, cock-ups, involved throughout this production.
A novice armourer doesn't help the situation. She should have had the ability to draw everyone on-site together at the outset of this location's work and declared it "ZERO live ammo - of ALL types". Leave personal firearms in your vehicles when starting work each day. I doubt she had the confidence to lay down the requirements for a safe environment.