The firearm thread

[Mr Merde]

I am sure you can get .30 calibre bullet moulds with plain bases. I'll have a look online tomorrow.

100-200 metres, that is ok for most hunting in the bush here in NZ

300 metres target would be fun

Necking down and expanding the mouth. Used to do this when forming the 7 mm TCU from .223 brass. Fireformed the result. Shot about 20 times before needing replacement.

[jono035]

I am sure you can get .30 calibre bullet moulds with plain bases. I'll have a look online tomorrow.

100-200 metres, that is ok for most hunting in the bush here in NZ

300 metres target would be fun

Necking down and expanding the mouth. Used to do this when forming the 7 mm TCU from .223 brass. Fireformed the result. Shot about 20 times before needing replacement.

If you could then that'd definitely save the hassle of the gas check.

Do you think that this brass would possibly last longer given that it is being used at closer to pistol pressures? If made from .223 then the thicker neck should help preventing neck splits when resizing...

Also there are enough people cautioning that using cast bullets with a suppressor will result in lead build up inside to make me wonder if it's worth adding the requirement that the suppressor has to be able to be dismantled for cleaning. I wonder how far you could get trying to melt the lead out? Need to try that on my .22 pistol baffles next time I've got the pot running.

Melted down 10kg of clip on and 20kg of stick on wheel weights a couple of days ago, starting to get a respectable little pile of muffin-tray ingots now... About 30 from stick ons (soft) and 8 from clip-ons. Also found an old roll of 60/40 solder sitting in the shed that can be used to beef up the tin as a test. Most of a 500g roll so should be able to add 2% tin to about 15kg of lead alloy.

[Mr Merde]

Brass should last indefinitely. Once it has its basic shape, been fireformed and then fired in earnest it should only need neck resizing most of the time. The neck will have to be annealed occasionally and a full length size every 20 or so uses.

Looking around the sites. Most 30 calibre moulds seem to throw a GC bullet. What is the dia of the .30 whisper? is it .309, .308 ?

Still looking for a plain base mould.

Shouldnt have too much lead build up in the suppressor. .22 versions I have just need the occasional wipe down. If yours is shaving then something is wrong with the alignment of bore to suppressor or ther diameter of the hole through the suppressor is too tight.

Nice bit of casting.

[jono035]

It's definitely not shaving, the lead that is on the baffles was originally mistaken for powder buildup until I tried to chip it out. I've put probably 2k/3k rounds through that pistol easily an I've never been able to get the baffles out previously, so it has probably been building up for quite some time. I think you've seen one of the baffles?

It seems to be .309 used for cast bullets, the Lee mould is listed as .309 and the other moulds people are using are .311 with a few people mentioning they size to .309. All of this still seems to be with GCs though so using .310/.311 might pay dividends for a plain base or checkless bullet given that the pressures in the round are going to be pretty low.

[Mr Merde]

Custom moulds

http://www.hochmoulds.com/rifle.htm

.221 Brass

http://magnumimports.co.nz/cubecart/brass/remington/221-fireball/prod_1403.html

Dies

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=244465

[jono035]

A PB version of that 220 grain .310 bullet would be a hell of a thumper although the 205 one next to it is ready to go as a PB. The subsonic is an interesting situation because it is quite possible that a heavier bullet will have a flatter trajectory than a light one assuming the same ballistic coefficient. Weird.

At $1.60 for the brass it's not exactly a cheap piece to be playing with and trying to expand the mouth on... Any idea what dies/things would be required to do the expansion? Could always get something custom made with a replaceable mandrel to expand the brass in steps with possible annealing in between which would mean that it was less prone to splitting on thin brass?

Those dies aren't exactly cheap either, In theory it should be possible to use a .308 neck sizing die and seating/crimp die though... Probably not worth the hassle but could be worth trying if you already had .308 dies.

[Mr Merde]

.300 Whisper Brass for sale

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=153422785

No international sales but I have a cousin living in Seattle that will act as a relay for these if asked.

Have them sent to him and he posts them to us

[jono035]

Interesting. Looks like it could be prone to the same usual issues in getting them out of the states.

Looking at the specs on the .308 and the .300 whisper in terms of neck diameter, there is quite a lot of difference there. Apparently .300/221 and .300 whisper chambers have different neck diameters to account for different brass thicknesses. .300 whisper should be made from .221 expanded while .300/221 should be made from .223 necked down.

Apparently, because .300 whisper is an SSK trademarked cartridge most barrels and reamers from other companies are .300/221 dimensions, even if they are marketed as .300 whisper...

Bah, confusing.

Edit: http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/brass.html indicates that the set comes with the expanders required to make the brass from .221 which makes it seem like a much better deal. My point above may hold true for the reloading dies as well if the necks get sized by different amounts... The Redding die is listed as .300 Whisper (.300/221) though... who knows... Probably best to get both and have a play around, really.

Edit 2: Also found a forum where the Howa 1500 action was suggested as a possible parent over the Remington 700 due to better extraction of the short case.

[Mr Merde]

I have never had a problem getting brass out of the US.
Its not a prohibited item or subject to any export rules.

The problem is that the firms just dont want the hassle of shipping overseas and also there is a general shortage in the US of all things shooting related. Checks for firearms purchases over trhere have hit an all time high with it going up 1.5% just last month.

The last lot of brass I had sent over was 2000 M1 cases and 1000 .44 spl cases.

Came here with no problems. I have the Weatherby Vanguard in .223, that is the Howa action rebadged. Worth looking at that for rebarreling.

[Drunken Monkey]

Anyone with a clone M-14?
Can you confirm that it has the gas-port shut off between the barrell and the gas tube please? My old one used to, so it could be turned off to create a straight-pull rifle.
Also, the B-square mounts have small grub screws in them and may move around a bit. Spending decent money on the mount would be a wise investment on an M-14.

I have a norinco m305 . what exactly am I looking for? I could take a photo and post it for you if you want.

[jono035]

I have never had a problem getting brass out of the US.
Its not a prohibited item or subject to any export rules.

The problem is that the firms just dont want the hassle of shipping overseas and also there is a general shortage in the US of all things shooting related. Checks for firearms purchases over trhere have hit an all time high with it going up 1.5% just last month.

The last lot of brass I had sent over was 2000 M1 cases and 1000 .44 spl cases.

Came here with no problems. I have the Weatherby Vanguard in .223, that is the Howa action rebadged. Worth looking at that for rebarreling.

More meant that the guy with the pre-made .300 whisper cases wouldn't ship to NZ, so finding somewhere that stocks a rare case and doesn't mind the hassle of shipping to NZ might be a hard one. This isn't a problem anyway given magnum imports has .221 fireball available and the dies include the mouth expander stems.

I'll bear that action in mind. I went and had a look in Sportways while I was waiting for my car to get a warrant just up the road. They had 3x Norinco JW-105s there, scoped for $650 each, all of them look like they're in pretty damn good nick. The next cheapest they had were a couple of Savage .223s (no scope, rings or mounts) for around $1600.

Edit: There is a new Howa 1500 .223 with scope (and a free hat!) on gunriflereload for $1125, gives a good indication of what should be available.

[Swoop]

I have a norinco m305 . what exactly am I looking for? I could take a photo and post it for you if you want.
On the right hand side. Between the gas tube and the barrel there should be a small round "thing" that you can put a screwdriver into and it will rotate 90 degrees only. This interrupts the gasflow from the barrel to the gas tube, making it a single shot rifle until returned to original position. Interesting to know if they are fitted to your rifle.

[Mr Merde]

I have a cousin who lives in Seattle. He was back here a couple of months ago and he told me that if there was anything I needed from the US then have it sent to him and he would forward it on to me.

[ManDownUnder]

I have a cousin who lives in Seattle. He was back here a couple of months ago and he told me that if there was anything I needed from the US then have it sent to him and he would forward it on to me.

umm... like... ummm let's say... purly hypothetically... errr... brass?

[jono035]

I know a guy just outside New York that I have gotten to do the same thing for a couple of electronic gizmos. Considering trying to get him to do the same with a lee bottom pour pot and some 6 cavity molds (assuming that it is legal etc.).

I found a chart for what twist rates were required to approximately stabilise certain projectiles but I can't find it now. Apparently SMLEs use a 1:10 twist rate which from memory was good up to 180gr... That could be a cheap amusement as well.

[Mr Merde]

Jono, try this page

http://kwk.us/twist.html

and this one

http://www.stickledown.co.uk/

[Mr Merde]

umm... like... ummm let's say... purly hypothetically... errr... brass?

Exactly what I have been thinking about.

[jono035]

Jono, try this page

http://kwk.us/twist.html

and this one

http://www.stickledown.co.uk/

Thanks for the links, Chris. I've looked at some of that stuff before and the mathematics behind it all is pretty easy (figuring rpm from velocity and twist rate then figuring energy storage from sectional density and bullet rpm). I was more looking for a table of required bullet rpm for stability for different caliber/design/weight bullets to figure out what twists were minimum for a 1000fps subsonic load which is pretty dependent on the individual bullet.

I found the table again at http://feistyrooster.com/300x221/300x221faq.html but it was all jacketed bullets which I hadn't noticed previously.

[wbks]

So I just found out about the "bump firing" technique which I had never heard of... Any of you ever try that? It's probably a bit pointless with 5 round mags in NZ, but looks like a laugh with an SKS or AK providing you don't do it much or are very wealthy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX3ioOjTr5Y&feature=related Must be within the same firing rate as their fully auto versions within a few milliseconds? Can't be too accurate, though

[ManDownUnder]

Exactly what I have been thinking about.
I am mindful (and respecting) possible export challenges associated with brass so I don't expect anything that compromises family trusts...

That said... WHEN IS THE SHIPMENT? I have big wants

[jono035]

I am mindful (and respecting) possible export challenges associated with brass so I don't expect anything that compromises family trusts...

That said... WHEN IS THE SHIPMENT? I have big wants

As I understand there is no 'export challenges' with respect to brass or projectiles, they can just stick em in the mail and away they go. Same thing with reloading gear (nobody has been able to confirm this fits with bullet molds too).

[jono035]

There is a guy on Tardeme selling a scoped mini-14 for $1150. He is in Kerikeri (not far from my parents) and won't sell without sighting the persons FAL. Could be interesting as a starting point for a semi-auto .300 whisper. He is pretty unlikely to find anyone willing to travel to Kerikeri just to pick up a cheapish mini-14. I don't know what a decent price for them is, but it seems cheap enough. Apparently about 100 rounds through it from brand new.

If anyone is interested in that let me know, I'll get my dad to collect it and send it down.

Edit: Just posted this on the NSA website and figured I would cross-post here, too, for anyone who is interested.

http://www.gunfacts.info/

That website has an interesting .pdf document that used to be linked to from the central shooters website. It has quite a few comments in rebuttal to many of the claims that I'm sure we've all heard/read before with some quite thorough referencing.

There are a few points that reference newspaper articles which may not make them particularly authoritative, but it is an interesting read anyway.

Some highlights:

"Many of the countries with the strictest gun control have the highest rates of violent crime. Australia and England, which have virtually banned gun ownership, have the highest rates of robbery, sexual assault, and assault with force of the top 17 industrialized countries."
From a report published by the Dutch Ministry of Justice

"In the UK, firearm use in crimes has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned."
British Home Office figures reported by BBC news

"Handguns were used in 3,685 offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40%. It is interesting to note:
• Of the 20 areas with the lowest number of legal firearms, 10 had an above average level of “gun crime.”
• Of the 20 areas with the highest levels of legal guns, only 2 had armed crime levels above the average."
Centre for Defense Studies at King's College in London

"In Australia, crime has been rising since a sweeping ban on private gun ownership. In the first two years after gun-owners were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms, government statistics show a dramatic increase in criminal activity. In 2001-2002, homicides were up another 20%. From the inception of firearm confiscation to March 27, 2000, the numbers are:
• Gun murders up 19%
• Armed robbery up 69%
• Home invasions up 21%
The sad part is that in the 15 years before national gun confiscation:
• Firearm-related homicides dropped nearly 66%
• Firearm-related deaths fell 50%"
Separate reports from The Australian Bureau of Statistics and The Australian Institute of Criminology

[Mr Merde]

Jono,

300 Whisper Brass

Reply to an e-mail I sent to SSK Industries
-----------------------
Chris,

Yes, we do have head stamped 300 Whisper cases ($48.00 per 100 pieces). We are unable to ship to New Zealand. You would need to go through an exporter. You may contact: Worldwide Sports @ 412-278-4200.

Thank You,
Tammy/SSK

[Wolf]

Any news on when there's going to be a final get-together and shoot at the Cliff Range, Chris?

[jono035]

Jono,

300 Whisper Brass

Reply to an e-mail I sent to SSK Industries
-----------------------
Chris,

Yes, we do have head stamped 300 Whisper cases ($48.00 per 100 pieces). We are unable to ship to New Zealand. You would need to go through an exporter. You may contact: Worldwide Sports @ 412-278-4200.

Thank You,
Tammy/SSK

That's not half bad, 75c per case before shipping...

That company appears to be Worldwide Sports Network, http://www.worldwidesportsnetwork.com/

I found the Clymer Manufacturing (http://www.clymertool.com/welcome.html) page and looked at their prices for barrel reamers, they have a .30/221 Clymer Whisper (which I assume is the same as a .300 whisper given the name trademark randomness) for USD$160 but interestingly they will also make wildcat barrel reamers for USD$170. They also mentioned that those reamers could be sent somewhere to make a set of custom reloading dies although I don't have a price for that yet. This hatched the idea that a whisper type cartridge could be made from pretty much any action or cartridge which made me wonder if you could do it with a SMLE action.
I joined up to the cast boolits forum and said hi, got a message back from a guy in Auckland who is making up a Lee Enfield for shooting 245gr cast bullets at subsonic speeds. Have sent a couple of messages back and forth about the possibility of using a shortened .303 brit case with the same bullet diameter etc. and using existing lee enfield barrels simply by shortening the barrel by half a chamber length at the chamber end, re-cutting the chamber (with a reamer or lathe). The re-cut chamber and crown might bring up accuracy a little, the smaller more powder efficient cartridge would be better for subsonic loads (less powder, easier to suppress) and the shorter cartridge with the longer bullets should fit fine in the magazine...
I'm not sure how this would all work out in terms of making the brass... If the original case taper was kept then the resizing could be done in the original dies, but they couldn't be used to push the shoulder back. An existing .303 die could possibly be shortened then bored in the lathe and polished smooth...

If anyone has any opinions on this at all then let me know. I'm intrigued by the idea a bit because I'd love to try out some of these gunsmithing techniques myself and I have access to a metal lathe. I also like the idea of re-purposing the cheap and common lee enfields, giving them a new lease on life if you will...

Edit: Also, as I see it, if the thing is going to be dropping like a stone at 150m then realistically the absolute accuracy isn't going to make much difference. Assuming you wanted to use it on bunnys at 150m then you'd still only need around 2 m.o.a accuracy for a solid body shot (we are talking about a 240 gr .310 caliber projectile after all, that's a sledgehammer!)

[Wolf]

I'm wondering what it would take to rechamber an old Smelly for .308/7.62x51. I know Lithgow produced a .308 variant of the number 4, but I was thinking of a MkIII*

[jono035]

Well with anything that is chambered for .303 it'd require a new barrel as far as I'm aware. The groove diameter is .311 to .313 for the .303 and bang on .308 for the .308...

You could ream a .308 chamber into a .303 barrel but you'd need to use it with .311+ bullets which would mean you would also need to be careful that the chamber allowed enough room for neck expansion.... All do-able, of course.

Full length resize with with .308 die, expand the mouth slightly with a .311 sized pin (easy to turn up on a lathe) and then neck size from then on with a .303 die?

Edit: BIG POINT: You wouldn't be able to load the rechambered barrel up to the same pressure as a .308 so you probably wouldn't get any real advantage over a .303 anyway... The actual .308 lee enfields appear to be made in india with barrels specifically designed to handle .308 pressures.

[jono035]

Just found this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=14415

Kiwi guy with a Lee Enfield chambered for '.303 Pygmy' which seems to be precisely what my idea was. Might see if I can get some dimensions off him...

[scumdog]

An Aussie company called Myra made all manner of 303 wildcats back in the 70's.

Got a 303/250 and 303/243 etc in my cartridge collection.a

[Wolf]

Well with anything that is chambered for .303 it'd require a new barrel as far as I'm aware. The groove diameter is .311 to .313 for the .303 and bang on .308 for the .308...

You could ream a .308 chamber into a .303 barrel but you'd need to use it with .311+ bullets which would mean you would also need to be careful that the chamber allowed enough room for neck expansion.... All do-able, of course.

Full length resize with with .308 die, expand the mouth slightly with a .311 sized pin (easy to turn up on a lathe) and then neck size from then on with a .303 die?

Edit: BIG POINT: You wouldn't be able to load the rechambered barrel up to the same pressure as a .308 so you probably wouldn't get any real advantage over a .303 anyway... The actual .308 lee enfields appear to be made in india with barrels specifically designed to handle .308 pressures.
Thanks for all that. There was the L42A1 - modded Mk4 made in Middlesex according to Jane's. Might just have to make do :eek:

[jono035]

Just heard from the guy with the .303 pygmy. Apparently he is using custom Lee dies for the forming operations. He also verified that the chamber is made in an existing barrel by setting it back and re-cutting the chamber (he has the only reamer). He offered to lend it to me if I was interested so I have a path to my own .303 pygmy now.

It looks like I have been thoroughly beaten to my awesome idea and just as I was getting to like the idea of getting to name a round, too! Bah. Oh well, time to find myself a couple of cheap Lee Enfields to play with.

[jono035]

Just bought a Lee Enfield No 1 mk iii off trademe. Have been discussing plans with another guy and we have decided to go our own route with wildcatting the .303. Same idea though but doing it our own way.

[Mr Merde]

Wildcat/Improved Cartridge Specifications done on the .303 case
Meredith 303/22
22/303 Varmint-R (22 Varmint-R)
22 Wasp
22/303 Sprinter
22/303 (22 Rocket - 22-4000)
22/303 Epps
22/303 British Improved 40
220/303 British
243/303 (6mm/303 British)
6mm/303 Epps
25/303 British
25/303 Epps
6.5/303 Epps
270/303
270/303 Epps
7mm/303 British
7mm/303 Epps (7mm/303 British Improved)
7.7x54mm Rimmed
303 ICL Improved
ICBM
303 Epps Improved (303 British Improved)
8mm/303 Epps
338/303 Epps
338 JDJ
35/303 Epps
375/303 Epps

Note the 338 JDJ is there.

[jono035]

Yeah, I've looked at the majority of those and couldn't find anything that was what we are after. They are almost all using different caliber bullets which means a re-barrel would be required or blowing out the shoulder/body to increase case capacity to get more velocity.

The .303 definitely has a long history of people wildcatting it, but there is nothing that fits what we're after so we're going it alone.

[Mr Merde]

So basically we are looking at making a .303 short.

Cutting down the brass, reshaping to as near the original throat dimensions, thereby allowing us to load to subsonic with heavy bullets.

One of my reloading books at home "Hatchers Notebook" has a lot of information that may be pertinant to this quest. I'll have a look when I get a chance tonight.

All the above wildcat rounds all seem to be supersonic. Is the 338JDJ the Whisper variant? Not sure myself.

[jono035]

I don't know, it might be a whisper (I didn't look at that one because it was a different bullet diameter).

Yeah, basically a .303 short, possibly changing the body taper angle a bit and trying to keep the neck/shoulder dimensions the same to allow the chamber to be made without a reamer.

[Mr Merde]

303 British Cartridge Specifications

<!--/area Type="subhead"--><!--area Type="main" face="Times New Roman,Times,serif" size="2" color="000000" style="0" password_protection="basic"-->
http://www.303british.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/303_British.JPG.w300h237.jpg

Looking at the case at the head the dia is .455, the beginning of the shoulder is .393
There is going to much more of an accute angle to a shorter case

[jono035]

The numbers that I had been working off were .460 for the head diameter and .401 for the shoulder diameter.

It would be possible to keep the case taper the same if needed, but that would make machining the chamber harder.

It's a trade off between difficulty forming brass and difficulty chambering the barrel. I'm hoping to keep the barrel chambering as simple as possible for the moment.

[Mr Merde]

So we shorten the brass, reform the shoulder and neck. The chamber will be cut back and the new angle cut into the chamber. Thereby allowing the .303 short to be loaded without havin gto ream the chamber for the shoulder or neck size ( I know what I am trying to say, hope its coming out ok). Will need to check the headspace for correct clearance.

I can see this being an interesting project.

As to loading. What bullet size are we looking at? Having your rough drawings I can probably work out what powder we need and how much we need to load, with the help of Hatchers Notebook.

Will need to work out the capacity of the case by avopourous volume (Think thats what it is called.) From there we spec ify the bullet weight andf the expected velocity (sub sonic). This will give us a range of powders that we may be able to use. Then its down to experimentation as to which works best.

[jono035]

Yeah, I get what you mean. If we don't have to touch the shoulder/neck then we won't need a reamer, yeah. The headspace is done off the rim, which is the fantastic part about this. As long as the cartridge chambers fully and has enough neck clearance to release the bullet, the worst that can happen is the brass gets fireformed to the chamber!

Bullet weight is basically anything cast up to around 260gr preferably, but may end up being less than that simply by virtue of the barrel twist rate.

Case volume should be around 1.6mL for the new taper or 1.8mL for the old taper, depending on brass thickness.

I don't know how this compares to the .300 whisper, but to a certain extent we should be able to piggy-back off some of its load data as a general indication.

[Mr Merde]

We are obviously going to have to cut the brass down.

Then we will need forming dies to create the neck and shoulder ???????

Neck resizing would bew ok onece fired. Universal depriming die to decap,

Fast powder.

As we are talking suppressed round here what length barrel ?

We would want all the powder to burn in that length.

Integral suppressor rather than a removable version ( similar to De Lisle)

Magazine would have to be addapted to the new cartridge.

ANy difference in the Lee Enfield or SMLE action and the P14. Thinking hwere about the length of stroke of the bolt.

I'm rambling I know

[jono035]

We are obviously going to have to cut the brass down.

Then we will need forming dies to create the neck and shoulder ???????

Neck resizing would bew ok onece fired. Universal depriming die to decap,

Fast powder.

As we are talking suppressed round here what length barrel ?

We would want all the powder to burn in that length.

Integral suppressor rather than a removable version ( similar to De Lisle)

Magazine would have to be addapted to the new cartridge.

ANy difference in the Lee Enfield or SMLE action and the P14. Thinking hwere about the length of stroke of the bolt.

I'm rambling I know

Yep, we'll need to cut the brass.
The guy I've been talking to has already done a successful forming operation using some home-made dies, he assures me it's very easy to make them. Failing that, steel .303 brit dies could be bored out.
Universal decapping die or home-made die threaded to accept an existing decapping stem.
Fast powder. Shotgun/fast pistol ideally, something similar to 'The Load', although our case capacity will be too small for that particular one.
Suppressed round, barrel length whatever you want but I'm thinking 15-17".
With a small charge of fast powder and a heavy bullet, it'll all burn no worries.
I'm going to make an integral suppressor, but it wouldn't need to be this way.
Magazine should be fine according to this other guy, he's tested a few lengths.
No idea about differences there.
Yep, but rambling is more normal mode of operation as well!

Perhaps some e-mails would save spamming the other kiwibikers :D

[Mr Merde]

e-mails a go but I did think that some of the others may have come back with some input. Brainstorming works best when ideas come from as many sources as possible.

Nothing is discounted, nothing discarded until you sit down and start working on the feasibilty of each.

Come on boys and girls, help us out here.

Chris

[scumdog]

e-mails a go but I did think that some of the others may have come back with some input. Brainstorming works best when ideas come from as many sources as possible.

Nothing is discounted, nothing discarded until you sit down and start working on the feasibilty of each.

Come on boys and girls, help us out here.

Chris

OK, go the other way - shorten the case by ? (at the shoulder?) and then neck it to suit 44 or similar, thread an (old) 44 barrel for the Lee-Enfield action and rechamber accordingly.

I suppose it would be like a Cassull in 44 but longer?

[jono035]

OK, go the other way - shorten the case by ? (at the shoulder?) and then neck it to suit 44 or similar, thread an (old) 44 barrel for the Lee-Enfield action and rechamber accordingly.

I suppose it would be like a Cassull in 44 but longer?

You can use a LE bolt with a .44 magnum case anyway, not sure about the magazine but you should be able to take a .44 magnum barrel and fit it straight to the action.

[Mr Merde]

.445 SuperMag

[jono035]

.445 SuperMag

Yeah, true. Would still fire .44 magnum rounds happily, too.

Not to mention in a rifle barrel you've got more headroom for making a rifle pressure +P .44 magnum load. There was some company somewhere selling .44 magnum brass with large rifle primers I think...

Edit: Scumdog - The idea behind this project was to use a complete LE, including barrel. Having to replace the barrel opens up a lot more options, to be sure, but it relies on you having spare barrels (I don't) or you wanting to buy a new barrel (I'd make a .300 whisper). This is basically .300 whisper but the economy, no frills, all bite and no bark version. Also, .44 cal suppressors are a bit harder to come by. Gunworks and MAE both do off-the-shelf .30 cal suppressors in muzzle-can and over-barrel designs.

[Mr Merde]

the 445 Super mag will fire .44 mag and .44 spl

Prime them yourself with large rifle. I've done this on occasions for my Rossi.

What we are talking about now is redeigning the De Lisle for a .44

[jono035]

the 445 Super mag will fire .44 mag and .44 spl

Prime them yourself with large rifle. I've done this on occasions for my Rossi.

What we are talking about now is redeigning the De Lisle for a .44

Yeah, in .44 caliber the .44 magnum is plenty if you want to keep things subsonic, it'll launch a 330gr projectile above the speed of sound so it should be enough for any subsonic uses in that caliber. I did think about going the de-lisle carbine style route but with a .44 magnum given that it's already a cartridge I'm reloading/casting for. In the end it was going to be too much work and require finding a cheap .44 barrel and mating that to the action. Now that I've looked more into the gunsmithing requirements I might re-visit that idea with another LE in the future.

Did you have to bore those primer pockets out a little? The large rifle primers are deeper than the large pistol primers...

[scumdog]

the 445 Super mag will fire .44 mag and .44 spl

Prime them yourself with large rifle. I've done this on occasions for my Rossi.

What we are talking about now is redeigning the De Lisle for a .44

Well there you go -just get a De Lisle....quiet-as and all the hard work has been done!:2thumbsup

[jono035]

Well there you go -just get a De Lisle....quiet-as and all the hard work has been done!:2thumbsup

Way more expensive/custom than a shortened .303, similar muzzle energy levels with 45ACP bullets and worse ballistics. Would have an advantage in wound-tract size but then apparently lack of penetration in deer sized game is the major problem at those calibers/energies.

[scumdog]

Way more expensive/custom than a shortened .303, similar muzzle energy levels with 45ACP bullets and worse ballistics. Would have an advantage in wound-tract size but then apparently lack of penetration in deer sized game is the major problem at those calibers/energies.

Ah, just a bit of toungue-in-cheek, I know how much it would cost for a De Lisle.

[jono035]

Ah right, sorry. There was a guy somewhere making them for around $2k, but I can't remember if they were completely faithful copies, I think the suppressor baffles may have been different. Neat pieces of kit and I'd love to make one, to be sure. I'll see how this one goes, most of what I'll be doing with this one could be applied towards making a De Lisle.

[Herman Jelmet]

Nice! I've got Jack Russel Foxy crosses that shred the possums. Where I live, no one complains about the gunfire as there are no neighbours,, in fact,, I'm a hillbilly,, and proud of it,, damn shame about Buell folding as I was quite keen on seein how the Ulysses were going to evolve over the next few years,, lotsa gravel here,, plenty of .762 going on,, and blackpowder, although the fire risk is a bit of a problem at the moment,, no harleys ride past here,, and if they did, I wouldn't wave to them aahhh fuck I mentioned the W word again,, anyway, they'd fall off cos they'd be blinded by the black powder smoke

[Mr Merde]

Up near the Kaipara. Nice.

BP shooter, do you know Greg and Bill. CAS shooters. Dargaville club memebers.

Gregg does the security checks for the firearms licences.

If you know them tell each that Dai.Sloe says hello.

[avgas]

I just saw my first video of AA12.
I like...........good rabbit/possum gun

[nudemetalz]

Me likey this !!!!!!!!!

Wonder if Sir Willie has fired one of these. Personally I would say so.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZF3IhZNQcU

[The Pastor]

Has anyone seen this?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10622354


Police confiscated eleven guns belonging to Waikato farmer Steve Meier as a "precautionary step" when they accompanied Transpower contractors onto his land yesterday.

Police were called by Transpower to accompany contractors on to the Matangi farm after a fire sparked by pylons in a shelterbelt of trees lead to the major power disruption in Auckland, parts of the Waikato and Northland.

Hamilton City area commander, Inspector Rob Lindsay, said 11 guns were taken by police as well as Mr Meier's gun licence.

"Under section 61 of the Arms Act, where officers suspect an offence has or is about to be committed we are able to write out a warrant to recover the firearms which is what occurred last night.

"The firearms were taken under these circumstances because the landowner presented behaviour that gave us some concern. This was a precautionary step only and no arrests were made," said Mr Lindsay.

He said five armed officers went on to Mr Meier's property to accompany Transpower contractors.
%3Cbody%20style%3D%22margin%3A0%22%3E%3Cdiv%20id%3 D%22adDiv%22%3E%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3Anone% 3B%22%3EIXXXXXX%3C/div%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3D%22display%3Anone%3B% 22%3ECCID%3A%2027439%3C/div%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%20type%3D%22text/javascript%22%3E%0D%0Agoogle_ad_client%20%3D%20%22 pub-5276995754775409%22%3B%0D%0Agoogle_ad_slot%20%3D%2 0%220953393067%22%3B%0D%0Agoogle_ad_width%20%3D%20 300%3B%0D%0Agoogle_ad_height%20%3D%20250%3B%0D%0Ag oogle_page_url%20%3D%20%27http%3A//www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm%3Fc_id%3D1%26objectid%3D10622354%27%3B %0D%0A%3C/script%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%20type%3D%22text/javascript%22%0D%0Asrc%3D%22http%3A//pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/show_ads.js%22%3E%0D%0A%3C/script%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0 A%3C/div%3E

"The repairs were necessary after the power cables had shorted and a fire had started, fire crews had been to the address to extinguish the blaze about an hour earlier," Mr Lindsay said.

Mr Meier has fought a five-year battle with Transpower. He has never made a secret of the fact he doesn't want its workers or pylons on his land. He blames Transpower for the cuts.

For the past five years Mr Meier has fought against having the company's workers or pylons on his 13ha property at Matangi near Hamilton.

He says he warned Transpower five years ago that a fire would happen on the land.

However, company chief executive Patrick Strange said Mr Meier was the most difficult person in the country to deal with.

Transpower finally got access to the farm last night with an armed police escort - but not before five chaotic hours. Power was down as firefighters tackled the blaze.

"We have had major difficulties with this guy," said Dr Strange. "We do have a right to enter the property but we can't just walk on. We have to deal with him in a legal sense.

"We have been trying to get on the land for some months. We've been sending him notices saying we needed to do tree-trimming."

For the past five years, Mr Meier has tried to get trespass orders against the grid operator, staged protests and attended Federated Farmer meetings with about 50 other landowners in the area upset at the company's refusal to pay for easement rights for hosting its structures.

[ManDownUnder]

The perfect setup...

A bit frustrated at work (from my home office in the country) and I hear the squawk of a targetPukeko.

Neighbour mowing the lawn which should nicely mask the sound of .22 gunfire... said targPukeko is plainly wandering around... oh goodie

Grab the .22, a few rounds of ammo wander the 40 meters to where it was... and it's moved - damn. So I stand the for 2 mins waiting for it to come back and ... the wife and kids come home.

... bugger...

[jono035]

Doh, bad luck MDU...

Had my next toy delivered this afternoon, a 1918 Lee Enfield Mk III.

The metalwork on it doesn't look particularly flash but it is damn solid with no pitting at all. The wood is reasonably banged up but still quite functional. The bore looks to be in pretty reasonable condition, the grooves are a bit dingy and possibly a little rough, but the rifling looks strong.

I'm quite looking forward to seeing how she shoots, too.

Not bad for $103...

[Herman Jelmet]

Mr Dai Sloe
I know both those men very well indeed > Greg is a neighbour of my girlfriend and Bill lives just up the road. Dargaville gun show on the weekend saw a mr One Eye in town for the day

[ManDownUnder]

Not bad for $103...

ooo good man. Want to try it on a Pukeko? :)

[jono035]

ooo good man. Want to try it on a Pukeko? :)

lol...

Gotta get some ammo for it, first :D

I doubt it's going to stay chambered for .303 for long though...

[Mr Merde]

Herman,

All three of these personas are great to know.

Tell Bill when you see him next to give me a call.

Tell him I am moving house

[Drunken Monkey]

Speaking of which, how are the plans for the new range/club trundling along?

My trigger finger is starting to get itchy again.

[Mr Merde]

Should hear something this week.

Still at the farm. Looks like the sale is going through soon. Will get everyone out for a last blast before we leave.

Chris

[jono035]

Just got around to finally pulling my Stirling 16P bolt-action .22 apart. I'd noticed that the paint was flaking off the trigger guard and it appeared to be some pretty rough looking aluminium underneath. When I got the stock of I found out that the lower was attached to the upper by two screws that went through lugs at the front and back of the lower and the back lug had completely broken off. As I was checking it out, the piece that was left of the lug broke off in my hands.

In short, be careful if you're looking at a Stirling bolt action. If the lower receiver looks painted rather than blued, run like hell.

[ManDownUnder]

Should hear something this week.

Still at the farm. Looks like the sale is going through soon. Will get everyone out for a last blast before we leave.

Chris

Please - that'd be great. I now have a couple of little people that may join us.

It was Ruben's 10th birthday, and little miss 7 (Mia) didn't want to be left behind - come and have a go. She is shooting JunkmanJoe's .22 (thanks dude - that's REALLY making some little people happy).

Something else to check - Ruben's finger. He turned 10 and on his journey to being a man he got a REAL pocket knife (on the bench with him)... and a REAL cut from it (under the plaster on his left index finger...). He also got 2 packets of .22 stingers (1640fps, 32gr .22lr... they're pretty impressive too)

193084

[jono035]

Where was that photo taken, MDU? Looks like a neat little setup.

[ManDownUnder]

Where was that photo taken, MDU? Looks like a neat little setup.

That was NZ Deer Stalkers 25m range on Riverhead Road

It's a great setup and ther Range Officers there were brilliant helping the kids - making sure the rules were all obeyed at all times, but not making a big deal of it -kept it fun for them too.

[jono035]

That was NZ Deer Stalkers 25m range on Riverhead Road

It's a great setup and ther Range Officers there were brilliant helping the kids - making sure the rules were all obeyed at all times, but not making a big deal of it -kept it fun for them too.

Ah, cool. I'd love to take a look around out there, but the weird opening hours keep discouraging me...

Just got a reply back from an e-mail that I sent to ADI a few weeks ago regarding load data for .300 whisper.

They sent me back load data for 150gr to 220gr projectiles but only with AR2205 (no pistol powders) and all the loads are supersonic, even at the suggested starting loads...

I think someone has entirely missed the point of this cartridge, to be honest...

[EJK]

Today I got a $50 super cheap scope for my .177 air rifle. Its one of those thin ones (ugly maybe) but now the rifle looks like a Mosin-Nagant. I'm happy with that.
The scope is OK. Got it setted dead-center this afternoon and had fun taking down neighbour's apples :sunny:

Fun fun!

[jono035]

Nice. Some of those cheaper scopes certainly seem pretty good value for money. Would be interesting to see how it holds zero while getting battered by an air rifle.

Just got back from spending the long weekend with my girlfriend's parents. I mentioned that I had bought a .303 to play with and he went and dug out a bunch of old ammo that he had lying around. He got rid of the rifle a while back and then found another box with some ammo in it.

There are 4 packs of 10 rounds of C.A.C ammo designated as Mk VII and dated 1928 in the original paper and string packaging. I'm not sure about the projectiles, they look like they might be aluminium jacketed possibly?

Also got 20 rounds of C.A.C ammo with similar bullets stamped as 1941 and 15 rounds of copper jacketed C.A.C ammo stamped 54 and 7 (I assume 1954 and Mk 7).

Also a leather belt and ammo pouch with an impression on the tip of the belt saying Martins Birmingham Ltd. 1900.

Anyone know anything about old ammo? I'd hate to end up using some that would be better appreciated by a collector.

[The Pastor]

the only good ammo is shot ammo

[Mr Merde]

Thought I would keep you all informed as to the sale of my place.

The deal will go through in the middle of March.

So this means that there will be at least one more shoot at the Onewhero gun club possibly two.

Start loading. Start putting together your targets (frying pans are too soft).

I've found a few boards of suitable size to double as targets or bases.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

Off ill today. Nothing major just old age setting in.

Thinking what I can do here all by myself. Decided that all my firearms need a strip down and clean, oil and grease.

Thats 2 hours acounted for. Thinking od getting out the melting pot and rendering down all the lead I have stored. I am thinking that I need to make some .44 projectiles. There is the afternoon taken care of.

I have about 1000 .44 spl and .44 mag cases that are ready to add powder and bullet. Will need something to shoot at the next meeting of the Onewhero Gun Club, might as well be .44 carbine. I have a few hundred .223 ready. .30 M1 is turning out a little harder. Not sure what is going on but not all the rounds are chambering properly. The bolt doesnt close completely. All heads have been sized to the right diameter. Could possibly be seating but if that is so then all rounds wouldnt chamber. Experiment time. 21 gns of 2207 is max load and is still soft to shoot.

I have loaded all my 45-70 brass. 47 rounds. This time I have dropped the powder down to 55 gns FFg Goex under a 530 gn bore riding bullet. Compression is heavy, about 5/16ths of an inch. Case is crimped over the driving band. Hopefully this should work better with the front sight height as the rifle was designed to use the carbine load ( 55 gns under a 405 HB bullet).

Chris

[The Pastor]

can i load pointy projectiles with those 30 30 dies you gave indy and I chris?

[jono035]

can i load pointy projectiles with those 30 30 dies you gave indy and I chris?

The seating/crimping dies for mine can be stripped down and the seating insert removed. If you can do that (or just look up inside it) see where it will contact the bullet. As long as it is pressing on the sides of the bullet and not on the nose, you should be fine.

Failing that, seat a few and then spin the rounds in a drill to make sure the bullets are seated concentric with the neck.

Chris: Odd about the .30 carbine not chambering fully. Does it only do this when self-loading or when manually pulling the bolt back? Could be short-stroking if the gas system is a bit gunked? Maybe try get a few that chambered ok and pull them out before firing in order to compare with the ones that aren't chambering properly. Could be a resizing issue, not going right into the die and leaving a bulge at the base of the case? Could also be some lead buildup at the edge of the chamber that the cartridge headspaces off?

I had a bit of a weird issue at the range on friday as well. Let 100 rounds off through the .44 magnum and most of them were tumbling when they hit the target. Perfect rectangular holes with the semi-wadcutter shoulder, the cannellure and the grease groove and gas check rebate all visible in the lead that had rubbed off on the paper. I figure the options are that the lead is too soft and is stripping out in the rifling or that the bullets (which I know to be a little undersized) aren't engaging the rifling deep enough. These were also slightly lower power rounds (8 grains instead of the 10.2 max) so it's possible they don't have enough pressure to be obturating the bullet...

First test will be to crank up the power a little bit and see if the problem goes away. If this works then that will be quite unfortunate. I was trying to find a lower power load so that I could co-exist a little more peacefully with the others at the range!

[Mr Merde]

...............

Chris: Odd about the .30 carbine not chambering fully. Does it only do this when self-loading or when manually pulling the bolt back? Could be short-stroking if the gas system is a bit gunked? Maybe try get a few that chambered ok and pull them out before firing in order to compare with the ones that aren't chambering properly. Could be a resizing issue, not going right into the die and leaving a bulge at the base of the case? Could also be some lead buildup at the edge of the chamber that the cartridge headspaces off?

I had a bit of a weird issue at the range on friday as well. Let 100 rounds off through the .44 magnum and most of them were tumbling when they hit the target. Perfect rectangular holes with the semi-wadcutter shoulder, the cannellure and the grease groove and gas check rebate all visible in the lead that had rubbed off on the paper. I figure the options are that the lead is too soft and is stripping out in the rifling or that the bullets (which I know to be a little undersized) aren't engaging the rifling deep enough. These were also slightly lower power rounds (8 grains instead of the 10.2 max) so it's possible they don't have enough pressure to be obturating the bullet...

First test will be to crank up the power a little bit and see if the problem goes away. If this works then that will be quite unfortunate. I was trying to find a lower power load so that I could co-exist a little more peacefully with the others at the range!

What diameter bullet are you using? What powder? How soft are the bullets?

What is the diameter of the bullet? I shoot mine as cast. This is a 200 gn bullet at .430. The die is for the 44-40 (.428) but as cast they throw fatter. I have put them through a .429 resizing die but there seems to be little difference in the shooting.

A pure lead or a very soft bullet should bump up to ride the bore and engage the rifling. If this isnt happening then look to the powder. You may need gas checks for this particular combination. Gas escaping around the bullet whilst in the bore and especially at the muzzle can cause a number of problems including keyholing.

One of the beautiful things about soft lead and BP is this bumping up.

Try a different powder for your soft loads. I use 5.5 gns of AS30N under the 200 gn bullet. Recoil is very mild (as you should remember). I use 4.5 gns in my 44 spl rounds.

If you are trying to load a milder round why dont you think about shooting .44spl. It would be like shooting 38spl in a .357 revolver. the .38 spl shot in such is a very accurate combination and the .44spl was designed as a very accurate target round. I can gi ve you a couple of hundred spl cases if you want to try.

In the UK I shot my 686 with .38 spl rounds for target and .357 mag for long range. in .38 I shot a 158 gn wadcutter bullet on top of 2.8-3.8 gns of bullseye. In .357 I used a 180 gns bullet with 15 gns of vhitivouri N110 (bloody fierce but it shot accurate groups at 100 yards).

Elmer Keith swore by the .44spl. I shot a Chater Arms Bulldog ( 5 shot, 3 " barrel, 19 oz ) pistol in .44 spl. Kicked like a mule but placed its shots very accurately.

I've been thiunking about the M1 .30 carbine round. All cases are the same load, all using the same bullets, all have the same seating and crimp and all the bullets have been passed threough a .309 sizing die. What I havent checked is the case length. I'll try some cases on the micrometer this afternoon.

Its only the very last movement of the bolt that fails to engage. The locking lug doesnt go completely sideways. It needs me to tap the bolt forward to fully engage the bolt.

I want to get this sorted so I can load the whole 800 cases I have preped. Then I can have a very enjoyable shoot one afternoon and not worry about running out of rounds. I also want to beat theis problem as I want to fool around with loads. I have heard that the M1 is perfectly capable of making a tin can dance at 100 metre and respectable groups to 150 metres. Its a nice rifle to carry and I would like to make more use of it before passing it along to its next owner.

Strangely I dont seem to have any problems when using jacketed bullets. This is why I have been concentrating on the bullet instead of the whole round.

Have you read the reply in NSA about the murmer?


Chris

[Mr Merde]

Jono,

Another thought on the tumbling bullets.

What is the crown of the pistol like? Damage can cause bullets to tumble.

Check the forcing cone also. Lead spitting off can have an affect on bullets flight also.

It was always the hardest part of cleaning my 686. Getting rid of the lead build up.

Really scrub the bore. There may be lead build up there. A good long soak with a lead remover and a lot of scrubbing with a bronze brush.

Chris

[Drunken Monkey]

Hard core NATO spec ammo pr0n:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/btb.pdf

Interesting read. Stuff we've probably all heard about, but in detail.

[Swoop]

Some "bling" for the thread...

[jono035]

Chris:

The revolver has a false muzzle that houses the porting holes, the actual crown is about 20mm back from the tip of the barrel which makes it pretty much impossible to inspect the crown. I didn't notice any of these issues with the jacketed ammo, though, so I'm assuming that it is purely a problem with the cast rounds.

I'll give the barrel a good scrubbing out although I don't have any lead remover to soak it in... May have to get hold of some...

The soft loads aren't really that soft, should still be around 1000 fps with a 240gr slug, although I'll take a bit of a look at them later in QuickLoad and see what I can see.

The groove diameter is a little difficult to measure given that it is a 5 groove barrel (from memory) but at a guess it was about .0005 larger than the bullet diameter. The throats of the chambers are slightly smaller than the bullet diameter, as well, so they will be swaging the bullet down anyway. The bullets are using a similar formula to what many other people on the cast bullet forums have been suggesting for handgun loads, the half and half pure lead/clip-on wheel weights with an extra couple of % of tin. They were also air-cooled so may well have ended up being quite soft. Trying a few that are water-dropped could also be a useful comparison.

In terms of .44 mag or .44 special, for me there is no major reason to be loading specifically to .44 special. The cases aren't enough smaller to give any extra efficiency in powder use and I'm really going for something that is a minor step down to the point where it is comfortable to fire on an indoor range without having to wear ear plugs as well as ear muffs. Mostly I want to be able to shoot it with as much power in the load as possible without pissing people off. The latest loads were a lot better than full house loads but were still way above a .44 special max load. (.44 spl max is 5.6 grains, mine was 8 grains, .44 mag max was 10.2 grains). Once I'm a bit more familiar with it I will think about putting together a purely target load, but for the moment I'm enjoying the challenge of the higher power loads.

For a rifle like that M1 carbine, I'd think that the bullet seating depth wouldn't matter too much, it should have a quite long lead-up to the rifling anyway? I'd be interested to know if you find anything in terms of variations in case diameter at the head, it could be that your sizing die isn't sizing them along the full length?

I did notice that comment on the NSA forums. I found this:
http://www.huntingandshooting.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8&Itemid=30
At the bottom it talks about their custom rifle service, the .308 murmur (necked up .221 fireball case, basically a renamed .300 whisper) and the .338 murmur (.308 bolt face using the remington BR case as a parent). Interesting.

[golfmade]

Don't own a piece, would like one but not legal here.

That said if zombie apocalypse hit and I was stuck here in Taiwan I'd hope I could find suitable weapons somewhere...

[Toaster]

Don't own a piece, would like one but not legal here.

That said if zombie apocalypse hit and I was stuck here in Taiwan I'd hope I could find suitable weapons somewhere...

Well I hear they have been buyingup a storm from the US military toys. You should be able to access something!!

[golfmade]

Well I hear they have been buyingup a storm from the US military toys. You should be able to access something!!

Yeah, mostly older junk at that, none of the fancy new shiny toys my American tax dollars have been paying for.

[Indiana_Jones]

Oh dear, what a piece of.....


<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=194354&d=1265365101">

-Indy

[Drunken Monkey]

You driving that down next time so we've got something to shoot at Indy?

[The Pastor]

just got back from a weekend of guns and fishing,


shot some turkeys - not sure how to aim my side by side when shooting flat / downhill.

shot some clays - pretty average sucess rate

shot a hare with my .22 - i think its my favourite gun well a toss up between that and my sidebyside

went fishing caught crabs (but i already have tons of them)

[Drunken Monkey]

went fishing caught crabs (but i already have tons of them)

Muff diving, was it?

[The Pastor]

Nah got them off indy, hes dirty.

[Wolf]

an auspicious page number for us gun-crazed loonies...

[Drunken Monkey]

Cool, or Tacti-cool?

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7cgp-0bJiyU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7cgp-0bJiyU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Would be an interesting project, for sure.

[Drunken Monkey]

There's actually quite a lot about this project on you tube, worth surfing around for a while. The total length is 27.5 inches (698mm), so your 10/22 P90 won't be A-CAT any more - so if you're going to be naughty, you might as well do the full-auto mod for it while you're at it ;)

[jono035]

I remember seeing the guys original video or one similar to it a few years ago. It's an interesting idea, I had thought that making an actual kit for that could be an interesting idea. I had a couple of ideas in terms of modifying the mag release in some way or adding a plunger to the end of the magazine handle to make it a bit easier to use. The bolt release is a bit trickier but should still be possible to do something with.

One thing to bear in mind is that technically sporting configuration is defined as not having a magazine 'that, by its appearance indicates that it is capable of holding' more than 15 rounds, so those 10/22 magazines that are made to look like a high-cap banana mag technically make you in possession of an illegal E-cat firearm. I doubt anyone would care, but it pays to be aware of things like that.

Edit: Could always add a permanent barrel shroud/suppressor to bump the length up a bit.

[Mr Merde]

Check out this site.

Sweden.

http://www.rh-custom.net/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=60

[Drunken Monkey]

Check out this site.

Sweden.

http://www.rh-custom.net/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=60

shizzle...mah...nizzle.

The things I would do with my own machine shop and a few grand to spend on 'toys'....

[ratfink]

What about bows/crossbows much more fun than noisy firesticks.

[Mr Merde]

What about bows/crossbows much more fun than noisy firesticks.

Definitely have their place.

I've always wanted to hunt with a bow.

Bought the makings and built a Welsh Longbow, back when I lived in Cardiff.

Never got to try it. Gave it to a mate when I came home.

[jono035]

A couple of summers ago a friend and I took up archery as something to do out in the sun on a sunday morning. It was good fun, but I never got very seriously into it.

For simple target shooting it's also a relatively inexpensive thing to get into, $400 all up I think.

[The Pastor]

A couple of summers ago a friend and I took up archery as something to do out in the sun on a sunday morning. It was good fun, but I never got very seriously into it.

For simple target shooting it's also a relatively inexpensive thing to get into, $400 all up I think.

you can get a decent (non compound) bow for a lot less than 400, about 80-150 ish.

[ManDownUnder]

you can get a decent (non compound) bow for a lot less than 400, about 80-150 ish.

Where from - I'm looking for a cheapy for a kid's camp I have coming up this weekend. I'll try hunting and fishing but let me know if you have any suggestions.

Cheers

[ManDownUnder]

What about bows/crossbows much more fun than noisy firesticks.

Yeah don't know about more fun (or less fun for that matter). Each to their own. If you enjoy them - go for it.

[Mr Merde]

Where from - I'm looking for a cheapy for a kid's camp I have coming up this weekend. I'll try hunting and fishing but let me know if you have any suggestions.

Cheers

MDU

Check out this shop.

Based in Mt Eden

http://www.advancedarchery.co.nz/shop/index.php?cPath=21_78

[jono035]

RM - yeah, but a decent adults one was about $200 then you'll spend another $60ish on arrows, chuck in a little more for a bag, quiver and bracer and you round it out pretty quick

Chris: That shop is about 200m away from my place and is where I got my arrows. I got the recurve bow from a guy out West though...

Edit: I also have a recurve bow that I could part with, but it's probably only suitable for someone about 6ft.

[Drunken Monkey]

What about bows/crossbows much more fun than noisy firesticks.

Yeah, um...no. Sorry.

[golfmade]

What kind of game is there to hunt down in NZ?

[Mr Merde]

What kind of game is there to hunt down in NZ?

Deer, everything from Virginia WHite Tail to Wapiti (Nth American Elk), Thar, wild boar (up to 150kg), possums, rabitts, wild fowl (ducks etc), hares, wild turkeys, wild horses, wild goats, and occasional a licence to hunt first settlers ;-0

[ManDownUnder]

What kind of game is there to hunt down in NZ?

Thar, Red Deer, Goat, Rabbits, Possums, Wallabies, Australians (although I think that's outlawed now?). And in wartime we add Wogs, Spics, Gooks, Nips, The Bosch

[golfmade]

You guys got Wapiti down there? Thought they were just in the northwest (of N. America as you said) and parts of northern Asia.

[Mr Merde]

You guys got Wapiti down there? Thought they were just in the northwest (of N. America as you said) and parts of northern Asia.

Shit loads of them. We also have Moose down in Fiordland though I dont know if you can hunt them.

NZ is a haven for wildlife.

At the turn of the 219th to 20th century North America was repopulated by geese from NZ. They were virtually extinct in Nth America. They had been imported into NZ and thrived so much that we were able to send lots of breeders back. Now that particular breed of geese the the most prolifically hunted species in Nth America.

Himilayan Mountain Thar-- On the world endangered list in its natural habitat. Here in NZ our Department of Conservation shoots them from helicopter in case the eat a native lily that grows 1000 feet below where the Thar live.

Australian Possum. estimated 70 million of the little buggers here.

[The Pastor]

and occasional a licence to hunt first settlers ;-0

shit me, you need a licence to hunt mary's? damn gumbermint taxing us too much!

[Mr Merde]

shit me, you need a licence to hunt mary's? damn gumbermint taxing us too much!

Justg a nominal payment, ie all beaches, forests, water, land, and KFC

[The Pastor]

justg a nominal payment, ie all beaches, forests, water, land, and kfc

you can't take our beaches!


Forshore i can!

[scumdog]

OK guys, being lazy here and getting you to do the work.

Got these cartridges, about 24mm long and they are same body dia. as 9mm but necked down to about 30cal about 20mm up from the base.

Headstamp is: 92 and two parrallel lines that look like they could be 11.

Any ideas??

[Mr Merde]

ok guys, being lazy here and getting you to do the work.

Got these cartridges, about 24mm long and they are same body dia. As 9mm but necked down to about 30cal about 20mm up from the base.

Headstamp is: 92 and two parrallel lines that look like they could be 11.

Any ideas??

.357 sig ??http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/357_SIG_-_FMJ_-_SB_-_1.jpg/300px-357_SIG_-_FMJ_-_SB_-_1.jpg (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/File:357_SIG_-_FMJ_-_SB_-_1.jpg)

[scumdog]

.357 sig ??

Nah, not 357cal, more like 30cal as I said.

[Mr Merde]

.30 Mauser??



http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ukcbrrhrP8snSM:http://www.jons-swords.com/images/firearms/fa13cp.jpg (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jons-swords.com/images/firearms/fa13cp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.jons-swords.com/firearms.asp&usg=__MrbhLEqtsu-Z5Yh-n5FXtrracIs=&h=346&w=425&sz=32&hl=en&start=5&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=ukcbrrhrP8snSM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=126&prev=/images%3Fq%3D.30%2Bmauser%2Bammo%26hl%3Den%26sa%3D N%26um%3D1)

[scumdog]

.30 Mauser??

THAT looks like it - could you check dimensions please?

[Mr Merde]

<TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: left; BORDER-SPACING: 2px; WIDTH: 315px; FONT-SIZE: 90%" class=infobox><TBODY><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Parent case (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/Casing_(ammunition))</TH><TD colSpan=2>7.65x25mm Borchardt (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/7.65x25mm_Borchardt)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Bullet (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/Bullet) diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>7.82 mm (0.308 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Neck diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>8.4 mm (0.33 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Shoulder diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>9.4 mm (0.37 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Base diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>9.7 mm (0.38 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Rim diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>9.9 mm (0.39 in)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Mr Merde]

7.62x25mm Tokarev

<TABLE style="TEXT-ALIGN: left; BORDER-SPACING: 2px; WIDTH: 315px; FONT-SIZE: 90%" class=infobox><TBODY><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Bullet (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/Bullet) diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>7.8 mm (0.31 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Neck diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>8.4 mm (0.33 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Shoulder diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>9.4 mm (0.37 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Base diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>9.7 mm (0.38 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Rim diameter</TH><TD colSpan=2>9.9 mm (0.39 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Rim thickness</TH><TD colSpan=2>1.3 mm (0.051 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Case length</TH><TD colSpan=2>25 mm (0.98 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Overall length</TH><TD colSpan=2>34 mm (1.3 in)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Rifling (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/Rifling) twist</TH><TD colSpan=2>1:250 mm (1:10 inches)</TD></TR><TR><TH style="PADDING-RIGHT: 1em">Primer (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/Percussion_cap) type</TH><TD colSpan=2>Berdan or Boxer Small Pisto</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5b/7.62x25_-_FMJ_-_SB_-_5.jpg/300px-7.62x25_-_FMJ_-_SB_-_5.jpg (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/wiki/File:7.62x25_-_FMJ_-_SB_-_5.jpg)

[jono035]

All of these could be candidates from the looks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Mauser Used by the Broomhandle Mauser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65x22mm_Parabellum Browning Hi-Power, Ruger P94 and a few others, popular where civilians can't own military calibers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x25mm_Tokarev Used by the TT-33, a soviet standard-issue military sidearm and the Vz. 52, a Czech standard-issue sidearm... Almost identical to the .30 Mauser

The 7.65x22mm Parabellum casing is 22mm long in total with the other 2 coming in at about 25mm

[scumdog]

7.62x25mm Tokarev

Pretty much what I have - who would use one of THEM and leave the brass lying around in the wilderness??:scratch:

[jono035]

Pretty much what I have - who would use one of THEM and leave the brass lying around in the wilderness??:scratch:

What's the overall length of the brass and the rim diameter? .300-221 (the whisper cartridge) has a 9.6mm rim and is 25mm from rim to shoulder with a 35mm overall length. 10mm longer than the tokarev but they look surprisingly similar...

[scumdog]

What's the overall length of the brass and the rim diameter? .300-221 (the whisper cartridge) has a 9.6mm rim and is 25mm from rim to shoulder with a 35mm overall length. 10mm longer than the tokarev but they look surprisingly similar...

No micrometer but rim dia seems same as 9mm, however it seems the body MAY have a slight taper - i.e. rolling it shows it wants to follow a curved track.

[Mr Merde]

Pretty much what I have - who would use one of THEM and leave the brass lying around in the wilderness??:scratch:

Having searched the interweb I have seemed to be at a loss to the use of this round in any other than in a pistol. (TT33).

Finding one lying around in the "wilderness" only leads me to the conclusion that someone has been using such on a non approved range.

Thde TT33 is a semi auto so the brass would be ejected to the ground during the pistols operation. I know you have shot semi autos, have you always found every piece of brass?

Hope this pistol wasnt being tried out for a criminal purpose.

[Mr Merde]

Good morning to you all.

SD hope the information provided was of assistance.

It always amazes me how my brain pops up with information on all sorts of stuff I didnt know that I knew anything about.

I dont know where the leap came from your original post to me thinking about .30 Mauser and derivatives. It was only a matter of a few minutes from seeing your question to being on the right track.


To the rest of you.

The estate agent came last night. Our house is sold. We have made an offer on another in Tuakau.

Posession date is the 12th of March so we have 4 weeks left to organise the farewell shoot of the Onewhero Gun CLub.

As far as I have been told by Sharron I am not aware of any social functions over the next 4 weeks. So start talking now.

When do you wish to gather. The cottage is empty so if need be there is space to bunk down there for those of you who would wish to stay overnight. Just bring sleeping bags etc.

Lost the BBQ but something can be arranged.

Let me know when you will like to come for a days fun and games and also who is comming.

All you regulars are expected (you know who you are). Anyone else just let me know.


Chris

[The Pastor]

awesome, i can bring a wolesly, bbq, beer and a box of clays.

I'd prefer it to be later rather than sooner so i can afford some more projectiles/ primers / powders.

[Drunken Monkey]

Got the rest of February free, but all of March booked out for weddings and crap like that (except the last weekend of March). From now is good. End of this month (27th/28th) would be best, first 3 weeks in March would be impossible.

Might try and pickup one of those mechanical throwers if I get a chance.

[jono035]

Sunday 21st is the only date that wouldn't work for me. Any time other than that and I'll be free. Might have to get on with my plans for this .303 so I've got something bigger than a .22 to shoot this time.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'm pretty much free. But as Scott said, need a little time to get some kit together etc.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Work it out for a Saturday this month then. Let me know and its a goer

[Indiana_Jones]

say 27th?

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

say 27th?

-Indy

OK by me and

"she who must be obeyed"

[The Pastor]

27th is a good for me too.

[Mr Merde]

27th is a good for me too.

So now we are 3

[jono035]

So now we are 3

Make that 4. Possibly with bells on.

[The Pastor]

Make that 4. Possibly with bells on.

just leave the makeup at home

[jono035]

just leave the makeup at home

That's not what you said last night...

[Mr Merde]

That's not what you said last night...

Indy tells me that RM is always a bit rough when he is whispering sweet nothings in your ear, from behind!!!!

[jono035]

Indy tells me that RM is always a bit rough when he is whispering sweet nothings in your ear, from behind!!!!

I wouldn't know, he's never the one that's behind...

[Mr Merde]

I wouldn't know, he's never the one that's behind...

So you are intimating that RM swings both ways

A giver and a taker

[jono035]

So you are intimating that RM swings both ways

A giver and a taker

A gentleman never tells...

[Drunken Monkey]

Make that 4. Possibly with bells on.

5.

That's not bells mate, that's your ears still ringing from the last magnum that went off while you had your ear plugs out...

[jono035]

5.

That's not bells mate, that's your ears still ringing from the last magnum that went off while you had your ear plugs out...

Yeah, that noisy bastard with the .44 magnum lever-action should have really warned me :P

[The Pastor]

That's not what you said last night...


Indy tells me that RM is always a bit rough when he is whispering sweet nothings in your ear, from behind!!!!


I wouldn't know, he's never the one that's behind...


So you are intimating that RM swings both ways

A giver and a taker


A gentleman never tells...

My gun is bigger than your gun, you're all just jealous!

[jono035]

My gun is bigger than your gun, you're all just jealous!

So true, so very true... *swoon*

[Mr Merde]

My gun is bigger than your gun, you're all just jealous!

But from all the rumours you are just a "one shot wonder"

[The Pastor]

But from all the rumours you are just a "one shot wonder"

I get things done, right, the first time.

[Indiana_Jones]

I feel so much dirtier after reading all that lol

-Indy

[oldguy]

Thought I would keep you all informed as to the sale of my place.

The deal will go through in the middle of March.

So this means that there will be at least one more shoot at the Onewhero gun club possibly two.

Start loading. Start putting together your targets (frying pans are too soft).

I've found a few boards of suitable size to double as targets or bases.

Chris

can I come along, bring me M44 Nagant

[Indiana_Jones]

can I come along, bring me M44 Nagant

Oh we LOVE our MNs!!

-Indy

[jono035]

Oh we LOVE our MNs!!

-Indy

I read that and it sounded like Gollum in my head...

Oh, we loves our precious.... yessss....

[Mr Merde]

can I come along, bring me M44 Nagant

You certainly can come along. Watch this thread for the date (looks like the 27th of this month).
You already know me from the SATNR early runs.
I ride the crappy GS1200SS

[The Pastor]

You certainly can come along. Watch this thread for the date (looks like the 27th of this month).
You already know me from the SATNR early runs.
I ride the crappy GS1200SS

have you finished that yet?

[The Pastor]

can I come along, bring me M44 Nagant

the more nagants, the longer the targets will last :D

[Mr Merde]

Everything is on the move.
Sold the house yesterday, bought a new one today.
12th March is transfer day.

Suburbia beckons. Going to be strange having neighbours after 3 years here. Going to miss just jumping over the back fence and shooting. Or even popping wild turkeys from the deck with the .223.

So I take it that the 27th is the next and final shoot of the Onewhero Gun Club. OK by me and her indoors. If you want to crash then bring a sleeping bag.

Lots of room, little bedding.

I'll dig out the old cupboard doors I found when clearing the garage. Will make good targets.

Chris

[Drunken Monkey]

What's the deal with the club range you were working on setting up?

[Mr Merde]

What's the deal with the club range you were working on setting up?


Still ongoing. RMA is a bitch. Council now wants to know what we are going to do about the odour. Especially mentioned was black powder.

Range is in a great hole in the middle of 87 hectares of land. This is surrounded by farmland and the nearest neighbour is over 1km away.

No we have to put in place a procedure to combat the smell of gunpowder.

Fucking council is trying to make us go notified and charge us $10,000 And we are are doing everything to be un notifieable and pay $600.

We will get there.

[Mr Merde]

Just a thought.

Once the range is up and running we could always reform the Onewhero Gun Club and associate with it.

An idea to toss around

[jono035]

Just a thought.

Once the range is up and running we could always reform the Onewhero Gun Club and associate with it.

An idea to toss around

Sign me up for member #2...

[The Pastor]

Still ongoing. RMA is a bitch. Council now wants to know what we are going to do about the odour. Especially mentioned was black powder.

Range is in a great hole in the middle of 87 hectares of land. This is surrounded by farmland and the nearest neighbour is over 1km away.

No we have to put in place a procedure to combat the smell of gunpowder.

Fucking council is trying to make us go notified and charge us $10,000 And we are are doing everything to be un notifieable and pay $600.

We will get there.

tell them there is a great natural air conditioning unit on site - outdoors.

Failing that, employ the use of taniwha!

[Drunken Monkey]

The title for this brief essay is "We're always learning, even things we should already know. That's probably more accurately described as 're-learning'."

So I'm not particularly busy these days, I've had a few customers out grow us and a couple others peg spending back. This has the unfortunate side affect of giving me extra free time in which to waste money I'm not earning. Last week this involved making my Norinco M-14 "Fully Tac", or perhaps "Tacti-cool" as is the current rage (which can be either a good thing or a bad thing). It now has, for no particular reason other than looks, a 2x42 red dot and a bipod.

Lesson 1: It's better to keep yourself busy working at work, instead of spending half your day browsing trademe.
Lesson 2: Being conveniently located just around the corner from SAI can be both a good thing and a bad thing.

Worse than this, while fiddling around I noticed the front sight was hard right, so without thinking I loosened it and shifted it back to centre. It wasn't until I tightened it up that I thought "I don't actually recall the rifle shooting wildly off to the left." Well, now that I think about it, maybe it was shooting a bit left (anyone else who had a go with it notice?), but really I shouldn't have stuffed around with it.

Lesson 3: Leave adjusting sights and scopes for the range.

And that's not the end of it. Failure to learn anything from lesson 1 last week ended me up with a "7 shot magazine extension for a Remington 8**, 11**...". Ok, it wasn't expensive, but still, I look at it sitting on the shelf here and think WHY?! First things first, it should actually be advertised as a "+2 shot magazine extension...", because all it does is allow you to put 2 more shots down the tube. If the tube only holds 3 shots, you're only going to get 5 (although I expect, gun manufacturers being gun manufacturers, that 3 in the tube and 1 in the chamber is "4" ). Well anyway, I loaded it up a few times and tested it, only to find the spring binds and the feed is less reliable. Maybe some lube or oil will help, but it's hot and I just give up.

Lesson 4: Um, I'm sure there's a lesson to be learned here, but I can't quite think what it should be.

On the plus side, a previous fiddler (not me as it's the first time I pulled the magazine internals apart) must have installed something back not quite correctly. I always thought my 870 pump was a 3+1, this was mainly because you'd get 80% of the 4th shell into the magazine before it refused to go up the tube any further. I used to think it was because I was loading 2 3/4" loads and the extra space would just be taken up by 3" or 3.5" loads. Well shiver me timbers, but after carefully reinstalling the factory spring and end cap, I can now quite comfortably fit that 4th round in the chute. (I guess this makes it 4+1+2 = 7!)

Lesson 5: There's always more room to become more familiar with the things you have. The best thing to do is use them often.

So on that note, bring on the 27th. I've got an iron sight to check adjustment on and a magazine spring which needs a bit of a workout.

Hmmm, actually I just thought of one more which may have prevented all this in the first place:

Lesson 6: There's a lot of knowledge in this thread. Ask here before attempting the unknown.

[jono035]

Sorry mate, I believe it hit the cliff that I was aiming at. That's about the extent of my memory.

Very true with regards to keeping yourself busy. I find that keeping my brain active while thinking about or researching possible projects is highly entertaining passtime and has paid off in a few regards where what I have found out (supplier contacts etc.) has saved me time doing my job when it has become busy.

[The Pastor]

wait, you guys work at work?

I bought 200 projectiles, a puller and 100 primers today!

all up $180 :O!

but reloaders are way cheaper than serrious shooters!

my calculations are with flat nose projectile $1 a round reloaded. With gummy tip $1.20 a round!

Way better than buying it!

[jono035]

Looking at the prices of jacketed rifle projectiles always makes me wince a little.

Sounds like a good outcome, though.

[The Pastor]

ITS ABOUT A 45$ SAVING PER BOX OF AMMO http://www.guncity.co.nz/308-hornady-160gr-ftx-lever-evolution-xidp217001.html

[jono035]

Yeah, for sure. I bought 20 rounds of .303 ammo and it cost me $48... I nearly fell over.

[The Pastor]

Yeah, for sure. I bought 20 rounds of .303 ammo and it cost me $48... I nearly fell over.

yeah but, my 308 is a hunting rifle, i didnt buy it to shoot bits of paper so the high cost on a deer hunt dosent really worry me as i doubt i'll ever see a deer!

[jono035]

True, although practising and verifying that you will actually hit said deer when you see it would also seem to be an important part of the process...

[Drunken Monkey]

I know your pain RM. I always fired more rounds plinking and zeroing than in anger on hunting trips. Then about 1/3 of the shots in anger are just used to scare animals. I think maybe about 25-30 shots i've fired have actually killed something.

Some types of ammo are definitely more expensive than others. Replacing my bolt action .243 with a .308 would certainly help consolidate the ammo types I use, with enough shooting it might even make financial sense...

[The Pastor]

anyone having domestics with tank? he said he wants to get into shooting, so i invited him but hes worried he might get shot, depending on who turns up haha

[The Pastor]

so i resized 2 cases when this happend

http://www.pyrocam.com/filez/go/DSCF3585.JPG
http://www.pyrocam.com/filez/go/DSCF3584.JPG
http://www.pyrocam.com/filez/go/DSCF3587.JPG

its the sizing die bit that pops the primers out - its stuck.

what caused this and how to get it out?

[The Pastor]

sorry for over size pics,

indy sorted me right, aparntly the locking nut locks it in.....

[ManDownUnder]

so i resized 2 cases when this happend
its the sizing die bit that pops the primers out - its stuck.

what caused this and how to get it out?

I had similar problem a while back and the cheapest solution was to hacksaw the case in 1/2, unscrew the priming pinholder/internal neck sizing thingy on the bottom of the zip thread, and pull the Hornady pieces out from the now destroyed 308 (or 270 WSM in my case ) brass

[Indiana_Jones]

Dear God remove those images!

-Indy

[The Pastor]

big is good?

[Drunken Monkey]

Just a thought.

Once the range is up and running we could always reform the Onewhero Gun Club and associate with it.

An idea to toss around

OAFFAH = The Onewhero Assocation of Fine Firearms Afficionados and Hoplophiles.

Edit: No, make that OBFFAH = The Onewhero Brotherhood of Fine Firearms Afficionados and Hoplophiles...

[The Pastor]

Im going to make full use of the range when its up and running.

[jono035]

Yeah, once the range gets up and running, perhaps we should keep doing a semi-regular kiwi-biker shoot. Would be a lot of fun.

[The Pastor]

I have a box of clays Im going to bring, but very limited ammo.

I was thinking if everyone chips in 10-15$ i can buy a box of target ammo. Any left overs will be spent on beer :D (for the event, not for me!)

What do u guys reckon? its $120 a box (250 rounds)

[Drunken Monkey]

I can bring a box of ammo, don't worry about it. You've got the hassle of the BBQ and all that crap as well.

[ManDownUnder]

So now we are 3

+1.... go on - add me on... hell I might bring a little person or two as well... if that's ok?

:)

[Wolf]

27th is perfect for me - providing I can get there. Will see if SSU is able to head out for a shoot that weekend as well.

[Mr Merde]

MDU and Wolf,

It was a "given" that you were attending.

MDU, the little one is more than welcome. He is a great shooter and should put Indy to shame.

Room to crash if anyone wants to stay the night. lack of bedding but we have 3 single beds available and a load of floor space. Cottage is empty.

RM, put me in for some of the cost towards the ammo. e-mail me.

Everyone werlcome. This weekend I will work on some targets. Got lots of cupboard doors and boards that need destruction.

Chris

[ManDownUnder]

MDU and Wolf,

It was a "given" that you were attending.

MDU, the little one is more than welcome. He is a great shooter and should put Indy to shame.

Room to crash if anyone wants to stay the night. lack of bedding but we have 3 single beds available and a load of floor space. Cottage is empty.

RM, put me in for some of the cost towards the ammo. e-mail me.

Everyone werlcome. This weekend I will work on some targets. Got lots of cupboard doors and boards that need destruction.

Chris

Much appreciated my friend. His sister can group the .22 into an inch at 25m as well.

I have a few phone books that are great for penetration testing too if you want them? (A few =... about 15... Auckland phone books :))

[Indiana_Jones]

MDU, the little one is more than welcome. He is a great shooter and should put Indy to shame.



Why you gotta break balls?

-Indy

[The Pastor]

I can bring a box of ammo, don't worry about it. You've got the hassle of the BBQ and all that crap as well.

ok sounds good, your going to bring 250 rounds of target ammo?

[Drunken Monkey]

Yep, can do. Plus a few other bits and bobs, but I will bring 250 rounds for the clays.

[ManDownUnder]

I'll bring some cash as well as a few boxes of home loaded ammo.

I'm bringing the car too so can carry the heavy stuff if people get it to my place or we meet up along the way?

[Mr Merde]

"Why you gotta break balls?

-Indy "

Coz I am a malicious little gnome. Didnt you know that?

[Mr Merde]

Phone books good. dead phone books better.

[archie-no2]

many bow and arrows

[Mr Merde]

http://www.uws.com/CMAG/IMG/cmag-ht.jpeg

100 round magazines, shoot all day without having to reload.

http://www.uws.com/CHOATE/IMG/PGRifle.jpeg

This stock has never been issued to the military so is it Military Pattern?

Oh I so want these items.

If I were able to buy them I would get a Mini 14 just because of the existence of thwese items.


I bought one of these stocks when I first came back to NZ. Imported from the US, for my M1. I had damaged my AC joint in my right shoulder and found it difficult to hold the M1.

Customs seized it as they told me it was a prohibited import.

[The Pastor]

http://www.uws.com/CMAG/IMG/cmag-ht.jpeg

100 round magazines, shoot all day without having to reload.

http://www.uws.com/CHOATE/IMG/PGRifle.jpeg

This stock has never been issued to the military so is it Military Pattern?

Oh I so want these items.

If I were able to buy them I would get a Mini 14 just because of the existence of thwese items.


I bought one of these stocks when I first came back to NZ. Imported from the US, for my M1. I had damaged my AC joint in my right shoulder and found it difficult to hold the M1.

Customs seized it as they told me it was a prohibited import.

yeah, but your a dangerous man. if you owned that stock im 100% certain you'd go rob a dairy.

[jono035]

yeah, but your a dangerous man. if you owned that stock im 100% certain you'd go rob a dairy.

Yeah, he's got a point there!

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, he's got a point there!

40 years behind the raincoat not the balaclava

[hospitalfood]

got a Savage .223 varmint last week and had it out at the range yesterday.
This is the stainless / laminated thumbhole stock / 26 inch heavy barrel version. Thought I would give it a quick review.

Very heavy rifle. lenght of pull not easy to adjust but not hard to do either, it suits me as is but would not be hard to unscrew the pad and add or remove spacers. I like the feel of the stock. Has the accutrigger which I set on minimum pull weight, I would prefer lighter but it is a good trigger as is. Build quality is typical Savage, not flash but not crap. It is 1:9 twist which suits 55 grain projectiles.

My initial groups after roughly setting up the scope were not great, around 1 inch. I then changed my style slightly and held it slightly more firmly to get more consistent recoil and the groups came down to less than half an inch at 100 meters. these were 3 shot groups. Best was 3/8 ths of an inch at 100 meters using factory Hornady V-max 55 grain, I am sure I could have got better with this ammo if I had shot a few more groups.

I was using cheap ammo to start sighting in and the result was very bad, then tried less than 20 rounds with the Federal matchking 65 grain and groups were very similar to the Hornady though lower on the target of course, shot less than 20 Hornady and stopped once I had got the 3/8 ths group.

This might not be everyones choice of rifle but I will not be taking mine back. I am no great shot but I must say I am very impressed with this rifles accuracy.

[The Pastor]

must be a slow news day today,

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10627717

I just can't believe the send gunpowder on ships these days, that's so dangerous.

[Indiana_Jones]

OMG!!!

We're all gonna die!

All you have to do is kick the container and it'll blow up!

-Indy

[Swoop]

We're all gonna die!

All you have to do is kick the container and it'll blow up!
Yeah... Shipping containers are blowing up all the time when shipped through the port of Tauranga. Erma are using their regular claptrap and bullshit for some reason here. It arrives, gets checked oveer by customs and trucked straight to the distributors' storage facility, just like any other container.
Gunpowder and safety class ammunition are not an issue.

[stevo2001]

I live in Denver.I have a Smith and Wesson 5 shot 357 Magnum($350 US new).It's cute as a button.I brought it for protection because when I was married I had a remote cabin in the mountains.Lots of bears and mountain lions.Where it might not kill a bear outright,it is light and easy to carry.And I figured a high grain hollow point 357 round is gonna slow it down some.A bonus is you can shoot 38 rounds out of it(same diameter,much cheaper)at the range.Here with a current ID,any ID.You can go to the range and hire pretty much any hand gun and have a go,unsupervised.They have had 1 suicide at a range in the 16 years I've been here.

[Mr Merde]

I live in Denver.I have a Smith and Wesson 5 shot 357 Magnum($350 US new).It's cute as a button.I brought it for protection because when I was married I had a remote cabin in the mountains.Lots of bears and mountain lions.Where it might not kill a bear outright,it is light and easy to carry.And I figured a high grain hollow point 357 round is gonna slow it down some.A bonus is you can shoot 38 rounds out of it(same diameter,much cheaper)at the range.Here with a current ID,any ID.You can go to the range and hire pretty much any hand gun and have a go,unsupervised.They have had 1 suicide at a range in the 16 years I've been here.


Very nice and welcome to the forum

[jono035]

I live in Denver.I have a Smith and Wesson 5 shot 357 Magnum($350 US new).It's cute as a button.I brought it for protection because when I was married I had a remote cabin in the mountains.Lots of bears and mountain lions.Where it might not kill a bear outright,it is light and easy to carry.And I figured a high grain hollow point 357 round is gonna slow it down some.A bonus is you can shoot 38 rounds out of it(same diameter,much cheaper)at the range.Here with a current ID,any ID.You can go to the range and hire pretty much any hand gun and have a go,unsupervised.They have had 1 suicide at a range in the 16 years I've been here.

Welcome to the forum, mate. There are a few of us pistol afficionados here, although you've got to be pretty enthusiastic to jump through the hoops they set up before you can get one.

[stevo2001]

I should of said that i am origonally from Tauranga.Been away 21 years.The gun shows over here blow your mind.A friend of mine brought the same gun the swat guys use,a semi auto machine gun/pistol at one recently,complete with folding stock and laser sights.$600.I am kinda tempted to buy a piece of exotic kit,but would rather spend the bucks on the Aprilia.

[jono035]

I should of said that i am origonally from Tauranga.Been away 21 years.The gun shows over here blow your mind.A friend of mine brought the same gun the swat guys use,a semi auto machine gun/pistol at one recently,complete with folding stock and laser sights.$600.I am kinda tempted to buy a piece of exotic kit,but would rather spend the bucks on the Aprilia.

Ahhh, right! What dragged you away to the US?

For $600, theres no reason you couldn't do both! I'm guessing you mean some form of H&K MP5?

[Swoop]

I live in Denver.I have a Smith and Wesson 5 shot 357 Magnum
Welcome to KB!
A Canadian chap I worked with, some years ago, carried something similar when he was out in the wilderness. Just for bears and I think it had a 2" barrel. I would have hated to fire it with a factory load...

The shows that are put on in Colorado sound great!

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Welcome to the forum mate. Must say I approve of your choice of bike as well !:yes:
I used to play with a Smith and Wesson 586 in .357, lovely toy.

[Mr Merde]

http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/toon31.jpg

Love this cartoon from todays Herald

[The Pastor]

So im loading the max load of 43gr with a 150gr projectile now ive got a new projectile that is 160gr will it be safe to load the max straight away? The fired really well at the max last time

[Mr Merde]

So im loading the max load of 43gr with a 150gr projectile now ive got a new projectile that is 160gr will it be safe to load the max straight away? The fired really well at the max last time

WHat are you loading?

Why are you going to the max ?

Definitely not safe to load to the max straight away. Drop it by 10-15% and see how the gun likes the load.

Check for signs of presure.

Accuracy. etc

Then if you feel you need to then slowly approach the max loading.

Did this with my 686 (.357 mag) and finished up loading 180 gn bullet wih 15 gns Vhitvouri N110. Actually over the max but there were no signs of pressure. There was a little gas cutting on the topstrap but I couldnt fire these rounds all day everyday as they were very fierce.

[jono035]

So im loading the max load of 43gr with a 150gr projectile now ive got a new projectile that is 160gr will it be safe to load the max straight away? The fired really well at the max last time

From most of the reading that I've done on the forums and stuff, the consensus seems to be that you should really do a proper workup every time you change projectile (even if they're the same weight) and lots of powder. From playing around with quickload, when you're at the max things like bullet seating depth, bullet crimp, bullet construction etc. do make pretty massive changes to the peak pressure.

The max loads listed will have a bit of a safety margin built into them anyway, so I think the risk of something catastrophic happening if you tried one at max loads straight off is low, but you may end up with a bunch of loads that you have to pull apart if the cases start getting sticky or anything.

Instead of doing a full workup you could load 80 cases or so to max and then have 10 or so as a quick ramp up from 10% below? That way you could still load up most of your cases and you'd have a few to make sure that everything was going according to plan.

Edit: Chris has a good point there, loading to the max all the time is just going to eat your brass, wear out your barrel and action quicker etc. without really gaining you much. If you drop the powder by 10%, you only lose around 5% of your velocity, which probably only means an extra inch or so of drop at a few hundred meters, not really a big change?

[stevo2001]

Ahhh, right! What dragged you away to the US?

For $600, theres no reason you couldn't do both! I'm guessing you mean some form of H&K MP5?

Yep,H&K.Sexy little thing it was.I went to Europe for 3 months OE,ended up buying a mint 74 Norton 850(8000 miles)and rode around for 3 1/2 years.Went to the states to visit a friend ended up buying a 83 beemer to ride from the Florida Keys to Seattle and then down to Mexico.Got as far as Denver.Married,divorced etc.The 2inch barrel,sure gives it some kick.I mess with experienced shooters by putting 4 38s and a 357 in the last chamber.It scares the shit out of them.

[The Pastor]

more media bashing

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10627899&pnum=0


"What type of human being could shoot two pet dogs at point blank range using a shotgun?" they asked.

I'd ask them, what type of human would try and keep the dogs alive for as long as possiable after a major injury.


"Chevy would have walked straight up to the gun thinking it was a toy and Toby would have thought, 'Oh, we're going possum hunting'."

not with a broken back hes not!

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01211/Vlad_1211123c.jpg">

PUTIN

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Yep,H&K.Sexy little thing it was.I went to Europe for 3 months OE,ended up buying a mint 74 Norton 850(8000 miles)and rode around for 3 1/2 years.Went to the states to visit a friend ended up buying a 83 beemer to ride from the Florida Keys to Seattle and then down to Mexico.Got as far as Denver.Married,divorced etc.The 2inch barrel,sure gives it some kick.I mess with experienced shooters by putting 4 38s and a 357 in the last chamber.It scares the shit out of them.

I used to have a Chater Arms Bulldog.
.44 Spl, 5 shot. 19oz weight.

With the spl rounds it was a handful and like you I used to mix my rounds .

SOme were soft loads and some were quite heavy loads.

Did this more as a training aid to stop me flinching.

Occasionally I let others shoot it with a couple of stout loads in ewith the soft ones.

Fun watching the expressions on the shooters fdace change .

Chris

[The Pastor]

i have a mate who said he might be keen to give shooting a try, is it alright if i bring him along?

[Mr Merde]

i have a mate who said he might be keen to give shooting a try, is it alright if i bring him along?

No problem.

GIJoe is probably going to be there also. He is thinking of going for a Firearms licence.

[The Pastor]

No problem.

GIJoe is probably going to be there also. He is thinking of going for a Firearms licence.

awesome, havnt been able to catch up with him for a while!

[ManDownUnder]

Hey guys - I think I might take up black powder shooting myself... this shit looks like fun!

IhQ4dE_RGnQ

What kind of charge do you reckon that is?

[Wolf]

It's looking more and more like my bike won't be running by Saturday so I'm trying to find some way to get there.

[The Pastor]

It's looking more and more like my bike won't be running by Saturday so I'm trying to find some way to get there.

start walking, now

[Wolf]

start walking, now

I'm 46, I should've started walking last week...

[ManDownUnder]

I'm 46, I should've started walking last week...

Righto then - start walking last week. Anything else I can help you with?

aaaaaaaaaaaand exit - stage left!
:chase:

[Drunken Monkey]

I just picked up a box of 250 shotty shells.
What time are peeps expecting to show up?

[Indiana_Jones]

Was planning of turning up around 11ish myself

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Just loaded 97 rounds, way to easy now.

One case wasnt sized? kinda weird lol. ran out of powder for the last 3 cases, so annoying!

I have 50 flat nose and 47 flex tips rounds loaded at 40gr. Good thing i didnt go at max.

But i still want to know what will happen pressure wise with the same loading but a 10gr heavier bullet. More or less pressure?

Got the powder measure thrower thing hooked up, saved A LOT of time, real quick to reload now. Really crappy design for bolting the stand on tho, really bad.

Saturday here we come!

[ManDownUnder]

But i still want to know what will happen pressure wise with the same loading but a 10gr heavier bullet. More or less pressure?

MORE

Think of it as throwing a ball as hard as you can. Are you more likely to over exert yourself thowing a light one - or heavy one? The big pills take more push to get them going

[The Pastor]

MORE

Think of it as throwing a ball as hard as you can. Are you more likely to over exert yourself thowing a light one - or heavy one? The big pills take more push to get them going

how much more?

[Wolf]

Just spoke with shiny side up: unless something really horrific happens he'll be there - wants to know if it's cool to bring along two of his next generation of hoplophiles and what (aside from a goodly number of firearms and ammunition) he needs to bring.

If all goes well and he can make it, then so can I as I'll be catching a ride with him.

[Mr Merde]

Just spoke with shiny side up: unless something really horrific happens he'll be there - wants to know if it's cool to bring along two of his next generation of hoplophiles and what (aside from a goodly number of firearms and ammunition) he needs to bring.

If all goes well and he can make it, then so can I as I'll be catching a ride with him.

Bring him along and the next generation.

Looks like we are going to have a good day judging by the number of people comming.

[jono035]

how much more?

The main rule with smokeless is that the hotter it is, the faster it burns. As pressure rises, so does temperature, therefore a round developing more pressure burns faster, producing more pressure so it burns faster etc.

This is a surprisingly delicate balancing act where a little extra powder or extra bullet weight (or extra crimp pressure etc.) can really spike pressures quite quickly.

I'll get some numbers from QuickLoad and see what I can see.

[The Pastor]

Bring him along and the next generation.

Looks like we are going to have a good day judging by the number of people comming.

yeah looks like a few are coming, what about jrandom?

[Indiana_Jones]

Sounds like it's gonna be a turn out and a half :niceone:

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

yeah looks like a few are coming, what about jrandom?

Havent heard from him at all.

[jono035]

From playing with QuickLoad using the .308 Winchester as a parent case (they don't have .308 marlin in this version):

AR2206 with Speer SP2023 bullet seated 4.4mm into the case
41.5grains under a 150gr bullet = 2600fps, pmax of 45k psi
41.5grains under a 160gr bullet = 2550fps, pmax of 47k psi

Add an extra 2mm seating depth and you get 49k.

That's much less of a difference than what I would have expected, I guess rifle cases must be a little less sensitive to these kinds of changes... There are a lot of other factors that can affect this, though, that would only be found by slowly working up. Different bearing surfaces, jacket hardness/thickness, core hardness, overall diameter, seating depth and crimp pressure of the bullet could all affect internal pressures.

Doesn't sound like the type of change that will blow up your gun, to be sure, but it could still stretch the locking lugs or separate the case head.

[ManDownUnder]

how much more?

Dunno but as usual - a number of factors come into play... crimped/not cruimped, bullet seating depth, charge, powder type, primer type... the usual long list of suspects...

[Wolf]

Havent heard from him at all.

I sent him a text but no reply, either.

[Flip]

Took my Brown Bess out rabbit hunting last week. Loaded it with 46 grams of No5 shot over 100 grains of No2 BP with 20mm wads cut from old carpet. Went for a walk got 6 and completely missed 3. Tended to shoot high and the lock time was a bit of a issue. I was however very happy with the results.

On another topic, the Alexander easter bunny hunt, well we are in. Team BASTARD (Bunny Assignation Squad Targeting All Rabbits Dead) is going south again. Have a work property set up for a couple of nights practice on the way.

This was some vid from last years hunt, we went wobblie hunting on the way back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5UW9VMwb50

[Mr Merde]

Took my Brown Bess out rabbit hunting last week. Loaded it with 46 grams of shot over 100 grains of No2 with wads cut from old carpet. Went for a walk got 6and completely missed 3. Tended to shoot high and the lock time was a bit of a new problem to me. I was very happy with the results.

Claasic hunting, sweet.

I went out for a day, with my 45-70 Trapdoor loaded with BP, but unfortunately never got the opportunity to take a shot.

Yep the lock time on these older guns bring something else into the equation.

[Flip]

Claasic hunting, sweet.

I went out for a day, with my 45-70 Trapdoor loaded with BP, but unfortunately never got the opportunity to take a shot.

Yep the lock time on these older guns bring something else into the equation.

I found for the first time ever that I had to track the target, bringing the gun to bare from behind. The bess has a big ass lock with a heavy trigger and a relatively big flash, I was glad I wear glasses. I'm looking forward to taking it out next time.

[Mr Merde]

I found for the first time ever that I had to track the target, bringing the gun to bare from behind. The bess has a big ass lock with a heavy trigger and a relatively big flash, I was glad I wear glasses. I'm looking forward to taking it out next time.

I have been shooting clays with my SxS hammer coach gun, using FFg. Found that like your self I have had to track the clay, swing past it and then a little more. Once used to this it becomes second nature.

As well as dealing with the lock time you also have the slower burning powder and the cloud of unburnt powder to contend with.

In the words of Mike Venterino "modern powder is a passing fad"

BP is the powder of choice for all dedicated shooters.

[Mr Merde]

My idea of the ultimate in possum guns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFuuU21cCyc

The American 180

[Drunken Monkey]

Should be there by about 1ish. Got another hoplophile with a small arsenal as well, hope there's enough space!

[sAsLEX]

Been at sea playing with some real guns last couple of weeks so been a bit behind in this.

Will be attempting to make it down for some of the day, need to pick up some ammo on the way, will also bring down some clays I have.

[Wolf]

From how this weekend's shaping up, there won't be a cliff left afterwards to shoot at, anyway - it's gonna be reduced to rubble under the barrage of firearms.

[Mr Merde]

Been at sea playing with some real guns last couple of weeks so been a bit behind in this.

Will be attempting to make it down for some of the day, need to pick up some ammo on the way, will also bring down some clays I have.


But how much ammo did the let you use when you were playing.

I am, unfortunately, a taxpayer and I want to knoew that I am supporting our armed forces in the style they should be accustomed to.

[Mr Merde]

From how this weekend's shaping up, there won't be a cliff left afterwards to shoot at, anyway - it's gonna be reduced to rubble under the barrage of firearms.

By my estimate there will about 10 adults and 4 kids there.

Time to educate the younger generation.

Looking good.

[sAsLEX]

But how much ammo did the let you use when you were playing.

I am, unfortunately, a taxpayer and I want to knoew that I am supporting our armed forces in the style they should be accustomed to.

I am not at liberty to say.

Not too much, week coming is our gunnery week!

I love the smell of Corddite in the morning!

[Drunken Monkey]

sAsLEX dude, be an awesome guy and bring us some surplus tracer/incendiary ammo eh? Of the 7.62mm variety please.