The firearm thread

[Mr Merde]

So I should aim for something like that to start off with? :)
Just as a rough estimate: Would a smaller projectile with more black powder have more stopping power? Or just better trajectory?

A lot less recoil. It would take a strong and very experienced man to fire one of those babies.

17,500 ft\lbs of hitting energy would put anything it hit out of commission. I think the >50 BMG only gets to about 10,000 ft\lbs

[wbks]

A lot less recoil. It would take a strong and very experienced man to fire one of those babies.

17,500 ft\lbs of hitting energy would put anything it hit out of commission. I think the >50 BMG only gets to about 10,000 ft\lbsId like to see a video of someone attempting to fire one. Was that the one where someone mentioned a while ago, the hunter (back in the day) would get their "little black boy" to help hold him up, but still get thrown off his feet?

[Mr Merde]

If you could find one of these rifles for sale it would cost you an arm, a leg and your first born child to buy.

Largest rifle chambering for a shoulder held firearm.

Beautiful piece of work.

That particular rifle was made by Holland and Holland of Conduit Street, London.

[Indiana_Jones]

Getting towards gun show time.

Hope everyone has been saving their pennies!

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Id like to see a video of someone attempting to fire one. Was that the one where someone mentioned a while ago, the hunter (back in the day) would get their "little black boy" to help hold him up, but still get thrown off his feet?

First off he proably would be shooting at the little boy and

secondly go to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXoa5zNn0TU

[wbks]

Getting towards gun show time.

Hope everyone has been saving their pennies!

-IndyHuh? tenchrs

[Indiana_Jones]

Huh? tenchrs

The Bi-annual Auckland Arms fair

April & October.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Huh? tenchrs


Henderson Gun Show

Held twice a year

[Indiana_Jones]

God I love this Martini-Enfield (in my hands)

Might have to be my fav our of the lot.

I think I need help lol

-Indy

[wbks]

Didn't the martini enfield sometimes grenade itself with the shells end to end?

[Mr Merde]

God I love this Martini-Enfield (in my hands)

Might have to be my fav our of the lot.

I think I need help lol

-Indy

You polishing it or just giving it a quick stroke??

[The Pastor]

wbks, when your in the thick bush a long heavy gun gets old pretty quick,

one thing to remember is that wooden stocks swell up if they get wet and then there is the rust.

a shorter lighter rifle makes life alot easier.

depends on what you want it for, a good 30/30 lever is great for the bush.

[Indiana_Jones]

You polishing it or just giving it a quick stroke??

It's mine sir and I'll clean it as fast as I want!


Didn't the martini enfield sometimes grenade itself with the shells end to end?

? :confused:

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

depends on what you want it for, a good 30/30 lever is great for the bush.

+1 for that

-Indy

[wbks]

It's mine sir and I'll clean it as fast as I want!



? :confused:

-IndyIf I remember right, I watched a doco on sky not too long ago about the development of guns from portable cannons to Thomsons, and apparently in Africa the gun you're polishing sometimes detonated shells before chambering and killed everyone in the vicinity...:dodge:
Of course I'm the gun noob, so you would probably know about it if it were true, but the rifle on the teevee set and the martini-infield matches the description perfectly. Of course, it's probably a rumor

[ManDownUnder]

The reply to my concern about TM data matching or somehow getting the list of Firearms license details came tonight
===
Dear MDU,

Thanks for contacting us.

I have looked into this for you and can confirm that as previously advised, if you fax us a photocopy of your firearms licence we will re-enable this ability. Please fax this to us on 04 974 4820 and include your username on the fax. Alternatively, you can email us a copy of your firearms licence as an attachment to tmcs@trademe.co.nz (javascript:top.opencompose('tmcs@trademe.co.nz',' ','','')).

The license information is held in accordance with our Privacy Policy, our Terms and Conditions and the Privacy Act. Therefore we do not sell or rent your information, and it is only disclosed in the circumstances outlined in our Policy and provided for in the Privacy Act.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,
===

so the reply, quite predictably, repeated the question I actually wanted the answer to.
===
Thank you for your response however my main concern remains unanswered. Quite specifically my question is this. How could you possibly know if the Firearms License Number submitted is mine or not?

Or put another way - how do you validate Firearms license numbers?

[Indiana_Jones]

If I remember right, I watched a doco on sky not too long ago about the development of guns from portable cannons to Thomsons, and apparently in Africa the gun you're polishing sometimes detonated shells before chambering and killed everyone in the vicinity...:dodge:
Of course I'm the gun noob, so you would probably know about it if it were true, but the rifle on the teevee set and the martini-infield matches the description perfectly. Of course, it's probably a rumor

You're talking about one of these right?


<img src="http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5945958,00.jpg">

And thanks for the update MDU.

-Indy

[Swoop]

Called for a boycott of Trade me.

I for one will be doing so.
I for one, have been doing so since they gave my details away.
Also, charging a fee to have a reserve price higher than the start price is really a bit on the nose.

Good thing it doesn't have a free-standing grip, otherwise it'd be deadly...
I'd be more concerned if there was a bayonet lug...:rolleyes:

[Mr Merde]

My reply from Trade Me

+++++

Dear Chris,

Thanks for contacting us.

Buyers of ammunition are now required to be authenticated and must enter a valid firearms licence number when they bid on ammunition.

Asking a question on a shotgun, rifle or ammunition auction now requires a valid firearms licence number to be entered.

We have implemented these changes to ensure that firearms and ammunition sales comply with current firearm laws.

The license information is held in accordance with our Privacy Policy, our Terms and Conditions and the Privacy Act. Therefore we do not sell or rent your information, and it is only disclosed in the circumstances outlined in our Policy and provided for in the Privacy Act.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Mel

Trade Me Support
http://www.trademe.co.nz (http://www.trademe.co.nz)


+++

I replied with the following

Mel,

Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I know that to purchase live
ammunition that a Firearms licence is needed.

My question to you is why does buying ammunition components now require a
licence input on your site?

There is no requirement in NZ law to provide a licence when purchasing
these components from any other source, why so non your site?

There is no legal requirement to provide a licence number when asking a
question regarding ammunition in any gunshop[ in NZ, why so on your site?

How do you verufy that a licence is correct? Recently a friend input his
number incorrectly and you locked his account, how did you know it was
incorrect?

Do you have access to the police database to verify these numbers?

I look forward to your answers to these questions and until I get a
satisfactory and reasonable answer I will be urging all my friends and
associates, who shoot, to refrain from using your site due to secutity
issues.

Thanks

Chris

+++++

I wonder what their reply is going to be to this one.

[jono035]

I wonder what their reply is going to be to this one.

There are quite a few of us waiting on the answer to that one with bated breath...

[Swoop]

Asking a question on a shotgun, rifle or ammunition auction now requires a valid firearms licence number to be entered.
I know what would be said if I walked into a gunshop, to chat about a firearm, and I was told to show a licence to do so...:lol:

[Wolf]

I know what would be said if I walked into a gunshop, to chat about a firearm, and I was told to show a licence to do so...:lol:
sorry, guys, but before we can continue talking about firearms in this thread we've all got to submit our licence numbers to some random dude who will store them somewhere...

[Mr Merde]

sorry, guys, but before we can continue talking about firearms in this thread we've all got to submit our licence numbers to some random dude who will store them somewhere...


Random ?

Isnt he a KB member already?

[The Pastor]

can anyone cut/paste what the important nsa thing was? i cant see it

[Mr Merde]

can anyone cut/paste what the important nsa thing was? i cant see it


Basically a call to boycott Trade Me as they are datamining at the best or breaking privacy regs at worst

[The Pastor]

Basically a call to boycott Trade Me as they are datamining at the best or breaking privacy regs at worst
its a bit hard to boycott a monopoly tho...

[ManDownUnder]

There are quite a few of us waiting on the answer to that one with bated breath...

Dear MDU,

Thanks for contacting us.

I am sorry but we are unable to disclose that information to you, we have processes in place to ensure the information received is valid but we are not able to release the details of how we do this.

I apologise that I cannot be of further assistance in this instance.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Mel

===
My reply , copying the Office of The Privacy Commissioner

Thank you Mel,

I understand the security required around the use and issue of firearms licenses, and to that I end I most certainly share your concerns and appreciate any efforts Trademe can put in place to safeguard that information.
However in this instance my concern is that the process is indeed a valid one and in no way compromises my privacy through the most obvious mechanism of data matching. I am also very very concerned at Trademe unnecessarily collecting information which confirms the likely presence of firearms at any given address, and the additional possibility of knowing what types of firearms are to be found at any given address.

Understandably your response has done nothing to assuage my concerns and I'd like to involve the Office of the Privacy Commissioner to confirm the data being collected and held by Trademe isn't being matched against data from a highly secure database held only (one would assume) by the Police. Alternately the license numbers may be somehow validated using an algorithm, which I also find concerning as this very tool could be used to generate "Authentic" Firearms licensee which should never be done outside state control.

I would also like to take this opportunity to point out the collection of this data by Trademe is not required as the onus is on the seller of restricted items to verify the buyer is allowed by law to purchase them. The collection of Firearms license numbers for the mere act of asking a question about anything firearm, shotgun or ammunition related simply aggravates the situation as it simply accelerates the rate at which this information is collected, for no legitimate purpose - which again raises questions on the rationale for doing so.

While I respectfully do not expect to be privy to what appears to be confidential data, or confidential mechanisms that I would certainly not want to fall into the wrong hands, I also see a strong need to prevent the possibility of a leak of data as has happened in the past (albeit I understand not Trademe's fault). However if that data held any of the above information relating to the types and locations of firearms throughout New Zealand it would have catastrophic consequences.

As a minor administrative point, assuming all the above is legitimate, you would also need to have a duly notarized copy of any firearms license faxes or emails as simply faxing or scanning one is not sufficient to ensure the authenticity of a license. The Arms Act requires all licenses to be either sited in person or notarized by the Police. As previously mentioned however, Trademe has no requirement on it to collect or validate that information as you are neither buyer nor seller in the transaction.
===
To the Office of the Privacy Commissioner

I'd appreciate if you could please work with Trademe in confirming their need to collect, store and validate Firearms License numbers in respect of their online auction business.

My concern is threefold.

1) Trademe is able to validate Firearms license numbers which should only be accessible to the appropriate law enforcement authorities. Related to that is what data they are indeed collecting and storing as the type of firearms license is a strong indicator of the presence of types of firearms. This information is very easily matched to verified addresses (per the "Address verified" mechanism Trademe encourage customers to use) to give a profile of a Trademe user, their location, the types of firearms likely to be present, the activities they engage in (reloading for example which would confirm the presence of high explosives) and anyone with two clues can create a profile to indicate what times of day the customer is online (and by virtue of that a good time to steal things if needed)

2) Another concern is Trademe's requirement for the Firearms license number when it is not needed. There's no need to have a firearms license number submitted when

i) A question is asked on anything rifle, shotgun or ammunition related
ii) A bid is placed on any non restricted item such as projectiles, primers, propellant, brass cases, reloading presses etc While I understand this may be an administrative error on Trademe's part done with what I expect to be the best of intentions - it exacerbates the situation, and grossly accelerates the collection of this data for no legal purpose

3) Storage and safeguarding of this highly confidential As outline in 1 above. Assuming this information collection has a legitimate purpose, the access to it must be restricted to the greatest practicable extent
Regards
MDU

[Mr Merde]

its a bit hard to boycott a monopoly tho...


www.gunstuff.co.nz (http://www.gunstuff.co.nz)

the more that start using it the more goods will appear.

[Drunken Monkey]

www.gunstuff.co.nz (http://www.gunstuff.co.nz)

the more that start using it the more goods will appear.

Sweet. Now if only they'll sell me that Sig-P226 without a B class...

[Mr Merde]

Sweet. Now if only they'll sell me that Sig-P226 without a B class...


I congratulate you on a fine choice of firearm but in all honesty I really do hope that they are responsible enough to tell you to obtain a B cat or go away

:lol:

[Wolf]

Random ?

Isnt he a KB member already?
Yes, but do you trust him to store them safely? :devil2:

[Drunken Monkey]

I congratulate you on a fine choice of firearm but in all honesty I really do hope that they are responsible enough to tell you to obtain a B cat or go away

:lol:

awwww, killjoy :P

[Mr Merde]

awwww, killjoy :P


I resemble that remark :headbang:

[Wolf]

I resemble that remark :headbang:
After all, he is a Malicious Little Gnome...

[Mr Merde]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10593736

Check this out.

Police have seized 100 plastic air guns.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Police seize air pistols from unlicensed import shop

10:08AM Friday Aug 28, 2009
<!-- Ixt1-->
http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/pistol_300x200.jpg
Police are reminding retailers about the rules relating to air-operated pistols after more than 100 were seized from a Palmerston North import shop that didn't hold a dealer's licence. Photo / NZPA



Palmerston North police have warned retailers they need a dealer's licence to sell air pistols after seizing more than 100 from an unlicensed import shop.
Area arms officer Greg Nyhan said no decision had been made on whether the shop would be charged but offenders could be charged under the Arms Act.
"We want to take the opportunity to remind retailers that possession and sale of guns, and similar air guns, is an offence and they will be seized and destroyed," he said.
"It is also timely to remind everyone that unlawful possession of airguns regardless of their strength, and discharging these weapons in a public place, is also an offence."
The firearms seized used air compressed by a cocking spring to fire a round, plastic pellet up to 20m.
"While they appear to be toys, they have the potential to produce painful results," Mr Nyhan said.
"Two such firearms were seized recently from two youths who were firing the air gun at children playing in a school playground.

[Wolf]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10593736

Check this out.

Police have seized 100 plastic air guns.
+++++++++++++++++++++

Police seize air pistols from unlicensed import shop

10:08AM Friday Aug 28, 2009
<!-- Ixt1-->
http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/image/jpg/pistol_300x200.jpg
Police are reminding retailers about the rules relating to air-operated pistols after more than 100 were seized from a Palmerston North import shop that didn't hold a dealer's licence. Photo / NZPA



Palmerston North police have warned retailers they need a dealer's licence to sell air pistols after seizing more than 100 from an unlicensed import shop.
Area arms officer Greg Nyhan said no decision had been made on whether the shop would be charged but offenders could be charged under the Arms Act.
"We want to take the opportunity to remind retailers that possession and sale of guns, and similar air guns, is an offence and they will be seized and destroyed," he said.
"It is also timely to remind everyone that unlawful possession of airguns regardless of their strength, and discharging these weapons in a public place, is also an offence."
The firearms seized used air compressed by a cocking spring to fire a round, plastic pellet up to 20m.
"While they appear to be toys, they have the potential to produce painful results," Mr Nyhan said.
"Two such firearms were seized recently from two youths who were firing the air gun at children playing in a school playground.
WTF?!?!

The $2 shop not far from work sells shoddy Chinese-made airsoft pistols, does this mean they have to have a dealer's licence or face prosecution?

[Swoop]

Check this out.

Police have seized 100 plastic air guns.
+++++++++++++++++++++
I laughed.
Crime must be slow today.:(

[Mr Merde]

I laughed.
Crime must be slow today.:(

How can it be slow.

There will be an announcement from the police, to the public at large, describing how, at great personal danger and with only the thought of the safety of the public in their mind, they have just taken over 100 illegal firearms off the criminal market, thereby making life safer for all of us.

Safe from tiny stinging plastic balls. Oh I forgot they could take out someones eye if they are staring down the barrel.

This is how the statistics are fudged

[The Pastor]

those bb guns shoot at around 15 fps. you can see them fly through the air

[Mr Merde]

those bb guns shoot at around 15 fps. you can see them fly through the air

But they are air guns and therefore illegal to sell without a dealers licence.

I'm supprised they didnt go i9n mob handed and waste the importer

Cant be too safe when illegal firearms are involved.

He could have been selling them to the Mongrel Mob or other gangs.

He could have been arming the whole East Coast for a trerrorist plot against the govenment.

Shit 10 of thos things could have taken out the NZ Army. Just hit one grunt with a bb and he will have to take aq timeout to recover from the stress oif being stung.

Who knows what would have happened if they had of fallen into the wrong hands. The havoc caused by 100 boys playing cops and robbers, whoops sorry "cops and socially maladjusted miscreants"

[wbks]

those bb guns shoot at around 15 fps. you can see them fly through the airI got shot in the eye by one while in a close quarter combat death match with my mortal enemy from primary school. It stung a little.

[Wolf]

I got shot in the eye by one while in a close quarter combat death match with my mortal enemy from primary school. It stung a little.
you and your mortal enemy are obviously totally irresponsible and should be ashamed of yourselves. :lol: I bet you've also run with scissors.

In my day, the guys didn't have access to airsoft guns and plastic BBs, they had to make do with proper break-action air rifles with lead slugs. I got to listen to graphic descriptions of how "so-and-so got thingummy in the throat and the slug had to be pulled out of the skin".

Somehow, they all managed to survive to adulthood.

Or is that "adultery"? One of the two.

[Drunken Monkey]

I got shot in the eye by one while in a close quarter combat death match with my mortal enemy from primary school. It stung a little.

True, we used to have soft air battles all the time. I got hit in the eye once when I foolishly took my goggles off. It stung LESS than the time I got hit in the teeth, now THAT hurt! (granted it was a ricochet to the eye, not a direct hit)

[The Pastor]

But they are air guns and therefore illegal to sell without a dealers licence.

I'm supprised they didnt go i9n mob handed and waste the importer

Cant be too safe when illegal firearms are involved.

He could have been selling them to the Mongrel Mob or other gangs.

He could have been arming the whole East Coast for a trerrorist plot against the govenment.

Shit 10 of thos things could have taken out the NZ Army. Just hit one grunt with a bb and he will have to take aq timeout to recover from the stress oif being stung.

Who knows what would have happened if they had of fallen into the wrong hands. The havoc caused by 100 boys playing cops and robbers, whoops sorry "cops and socially maladjusted miscreants"
we used to play with them in primary school, having wars, untill the bastard teachers took them off us. (teachers took way more shots to take down than we had)

[wbks]

you and your mortal enemy are obviously totally irresponsible and should be ashamed of yourselves. :lol: I bet you've also run with scissors.

In my day, the guys didn't have access to airsoft guns and plastic BBs, they had to make do with proper break-action air rifles with lead slugs. I got to listen to graphic descriptions of how "so-and-so got thingummy in the throat and the slug had to be pulled out of the skin".

Somehow, they all managed to survive to adulthood.

Or is that "adultery"? One of the two.Well when they took air guns off us I had to get my danger fix somewhere and just started throwing open siccors everywhere. That... Probably explains why former teachers seem so anxious around me


we used to play with them in primary school, having wars, untill the bastard teachers took them off us. (teachers took way more shots to take down than we had)
We used to line the loser up against a wall and shoot them on the back of the head (or where ever you could hit)... "Loyalists and Communists" or something:lol: (cops and robbers was for the poor kids who couldn't buy a bb gun). Did you really try to take a teacher down with a bb gun? Awesome!

[Indiana_Jones]

"Dear Andrew,

Thanks for contacting us.

Buyers of ammunition are now required to be authenticated and must enter a valid firearms licence number when they bid on ammunition.

Asking a question on a shotgun, rifle or ammunition auction now requires a valid firearms licence number to be entered.

We have implemented these changes to ensure that firearms and ammunition sales comply with current firearm laws.

The license information is held in accordance with our Privacy Policy, our Terms and Conditions and the Privacy Act. Therefore we do not sell or rent your information, and it is only disclosed in the circumstances outlined in our Policy and provided for in the Privacy Act.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Mel"

"We have implemented these changes to ensure that firearms and ammunition sales comply with current firearm laws."

Funny I don't recall where it says a advertising medium has to take down my FAL number....

In other news I got my Lee's 50th kit today with a 7.62x54R die.

God have mercy on all of us.

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

We have implemented these changes to ensure that firearms and ammunition sales comply with current firearm laws.

What are you like at chess?

Your move "But I don't need to enter my driver's license when buying a car"
Response "The law doesn't require car buyers to have a license (and possibly 'only those that drive them')"
Your move "Why don't you ask anyway?"
... etc

Feed 'em some rope.

[Mr Merde]

My answer to the reply from Trade Me.

Followed by their second reply to me.

Still the same bullshit

_________________________________________
On 27 Aug 2009 23:17:09 +1200, "Trade Me Support" <support@trademe.co.nz (support@trademe.co.nz)>
wrote:

Mel,

Thank you very much for your prompt reply. I know that to purchase live
ammunition that a Firearms licence is needed.

My question to you is why does buying ammunition components now require a
licence input on your site?

There is no requirement in NZ law to provide a licence when purchasing
these components from any other source, why so non your site?

There is no legal requirement to provide a licence number when asking a
question regarding ammunition in any gunshop[ in NZ, why so on your site?

How do you verufy that a licence is correct? Recently a friend input his
number incorrectly and you locked his account, how did you know it was
incorrect?

Do you have access to the police database to verify these numbers?

I look forward to your answers to these questions and until I get a
satisfactory and reasonable answer I will be urging all my friends and
associates, who shoot, to refrain from using your site due to secutity
issues.

Thanks

Chris

__________________________________________________ ______

Dear Chris,

Thanks for contacting us.

We now require members to enter a valid firearms license when bidding on or buying firearms related items. We have this policy in place to prevent the unregulated exchange and sale of firearms and ammunition.

Naturally given the nature of the items that are being traded we feel that the requirement to enter a valid firearms alert is not unreasonable.

We don't know your firearms licence number and I cannot comment on your friend's situation however it is easy to spot when someone does not have a firearms licence number or is clearly attempting to circumvent the request process. Unfortunately I cannot provide more information in response to your question or I would compromise our site security processes and render them useless.

If you have further questions regarding this issue please reply and we will answer your email as soon as possible.

Regards,

Robyn

Trade Me Support
http://www.trademe.co.nz (http://www.trademe.co.nz)

**************************************************

___________________________________


So it is easy to spot a false firearms certificate number.

The only way they can do this is by having access to the police database

for example if my licence was

T502324 and I input T502135

How would they know it was a false number?

The police tell them thats how. Its got to be the only way.

If this is the case then the police are as guilty or more so than Trade Me as they are giving access to what is supposed to be secure information.

So how do we find out? How do we make the police divulge how and why they are allowing access to this information?

I dont know.

Open toi suggestions.

[ManDownUnder]

I dont know.

Open toi suggestions.

Official Information Act perhaps (I don't know if this is covered though).

The other thought that strikes me is if the License numbers have an inbuilt encryption or checksum, but it would surprise me if the cops released that know how to anyone non govt? Maybe they compiled up some library with a function that when called returns "Valid" or "Invalid"?

Who knows. I do know that I'm probably not going to be privy to it meaning someone that will be is needed - hence my call to the Privacy Commissioner.

I'm interested in the fact that an Aussie site is collecting NZ license numbers though. It'd be like an NZ site collecting US Social Security details for example.

[Mr Merde]

Official Information Act perhaps (I don't know if this is covered though).

The other thought that strikes me is if the License numbers have an inbuilt encryption or checksum, but it would surprise me if the cops released that know how to anyone non govt? Maybe they compiled up some library with a function that when called returns "Valid" or "Invalid"?

Who knows. I do know that I'm probably not going to be privy to it meaning someone that will be is needed - hence my call to the Privacy Commissioner.

I'm interested in the fact that an Aussie site is collecting NZ license numbers though. It'd be like an NZ site collecting US Social Security details for example.

I have posted my question and the answer to the NSA site.

Apparently richard has also been stopped from bidding on firearms. Less than you MDU, I understand you were locked out.

I didnt realise that it was a foriegn business. i remember now it was sold to the Aussies. Can we bring in the Foreign Ministry and national security into it?

Giving out information that may jepordise the secutiry of a NZ citizen to a foriegn nation must be illegal.

[Swoop]

There will be an announcement from the police, to the public at large, describing how, at great personal danger and with only the thought of the safety of the public in their mind, they have just taken over 100 illegal firearms off the criminal market, thereby making life safer for all of us.

This is how the statistics are fudged
Just remember that they ALL had those naughty free-standing pistol grips.
Which is quite appropriate since they are pistols.:oi-grr:

[Mr Merde]

I have just sent the following er-mail to the Department of Foreign Affairs , Trade and Industry.

I'll post heir reply if they bother to send one.

___________________________

Dear Sir\Madam,

I am not sure if it is too you that I refer this issue to or not but I do feel that it is a matter that must be looked into.

I have used the website Trade Me now for a number of years. I do this to assist in purchasing equipment for my chosen sport which happens to be shooting.

Lately this website has been gathering the Firearms certificate numbers of those bidding on firearms. They also have started insisting that this infomation be provided when asking questions.

They seem to know when a wrong number has been input and take the action of locking your account when this has been done.

According to NZ law it is the responsibility of the seller to ensure that the purchaser has a valid fireearms certificate. Not the middle man.

What worries me is that they are able to determine if a number is vadid otr not. the only way i can see this being done is if they have an arrangemewnt with the NZ Police. This, if correct, is a blatant disregard to the privacy laws of NZ.

The other thing that worries me is that Trade Me is owned by a foreign company, namely Australian. It then shows that a foreign organisation is now collating information that may seriously compromise the security of New Zealand citizens going about their lawful actiuvities. If in fact they are doing so with the assistance of the Police Force of Nz then surely this is a breach of National security.

I look forward to your reply

Chris Breen

[sAsLEX]

Just remember that they ALL had those naughty free-standing pistol grips.
Which is quite appropriate since they are pistols.:oi-grr:

ahhh that would be military pattern free standing pistol grips, remembering that the police have determined that the long held internationally recognised term military pattern actually means "anything we think looks a little bad"



ps anyone got a E cat safe for sale ?

[jono035]

That was another incredibly fun afternoon at Chris' range, thanks again mate!

The M1 carbine and the .308 Marlin lever were interesting wee beasties to have a pop with as were all the others. Thanks a lot guys.

Indy: Where did you say you got the Lee reloading kit from for $250? At that price it'd be rude not to really, and even if I end up ultimately with a Dillon 550 or Lee loadmaster or something it looks like a good way to get started...

[Indiana_Jones]

Indy: Where did you say you got the Lee reloading kit from for $250? At that price it'd be rude not to really, and even if I end up ultimately with a Dillon 550 or Lee loadmaster or something it looks like a good way to get started...

Got the Kit from reloaders down in Onehunga :niceone:

Cheers again Chris, great to catch up :)

-Indy

[wbks]

Question for the experts: Why are rifle cartridges necked, and pistols not?

[Mr Merde]

Question for the experts: Why are rifle cartridges necked, and pistols not?

Sorry to disappoint you but there are some pistol rounds that have necks and there are some rifle rounds that are straight wall

Straight wall rifle round that I have is the 45-70

Necked pistol rounds examples the 8x22 Nambu as used by the Japanese in WW2 and the .22 Jet

[wbks]

Sorry to disappoint you but there are some pistol rounds that have necks and there are some rifle rounds that are straight wall

Straight wall rifle round that I have is the 45-70

Necked pistol rounds examples the 8x22 Nambu as used by the Japanese in WW2 and the .22 JetOk. Well then why are most rifle rounds necked and pistols not?

[Mr Merde]

Ok. Well then why are most rifle rounds necked and pistols not?

Thats better

I'm not an expert but here is my take on it.

Pistols

Necked rounds do not work very well with revolvers, the cylinders have to have to be specially made to accomodate the necked case. Its been tried a few times but never really got off the ground. The .256 winchester was a necked down .357 that on paper showed a lot of promise but never worked.

Straight wall cases seem to like revolvers better in both semis and revolvers. You can get a lot of powder in the case and hold large bullets.

Rifles up until the late 1870's were pretty much all straight wall. Sharps had a bottle necked case but it lost out to rounds such as the 45-70 and the 45-120. With the advent of modern smokeless powder in the 1860's (France) onwards it was found thatr a necked case generated more velocity that the straight wall powder.

To really understand it you need to read up on interior ballistics.

BTW most pistol cases arent actually straight walled. If you mic them at the base and at the neck of the case there will be a difference. There is a slight taper from the head to the neck.

This allows ejection from the chamber or cylinder to be handled easier as the case always blows out to the walls of the cylinder or chamber.

[Mr Merde]

That was another incredibly fun afternoon at Chris' range, thanks again mate!

The M1 carbine and the .308 Marlin lever were interesting wee beasties to have a pop with as were all the others. Thanks a lot guys.

Indy: Where did you say you got the Lee reloading kit from for $250? At that price it'd be rude not to really, and even if I end up ultimately with a Dillon 550 or Lee loadmaster or something it looks like a good way to get started...


Good to have you all here this afternoon. Enjoyed plinking with the Rossi.

See lever action pistol calibre rifles capable of hitting targets at 120 metres easy.

Loved what all those rounds did to the steel plate RM bought.

5mm plate with holes right through it from a .308 , bit dents from .44 mag soft lead rounds an smears from .22s. Impressive.

The way that plastic bottle jumped 50 ft into the air when Indy hit it with his 7.62x57, priceless

Next weekend I'll be burning powder(the real stuff).

Indy you were right, we will have to have a shoot with everyone sometime. Could be a lot of fun but first we need some decent targets.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Indy you were right, we will have to have a shoot with everyone sometime. Could be a lot of fun but first we need some decent targets.



Yep, gotta get some good steel targets set up etc.

And then find a date that works for everyone.

Have to meet Wolf!

-Indy

[jono035]

Yep, gotta get some good steel targets set up etc.

And then find a date that works for everyone.

Have to meet Wolf!

-Indy

Oh hell yes. I'll make finding some steel a priority for next week, even if it's just uncut pieces!

Someone find a plasma cutter :p

[ManDownUnder]

Could be a lot of fun but first we need some decent targets.

Mel from trademe? (kidding obviously - but it is kinda funny...)

I have scrap steel here, mostly RHS 1mm walls that would eaily be cut into sections and welded up into frames or shapes of various sizes. It would be full of holes before too long though - is it better to have solid swinging but impenetrable targets or ones that would have a resounding clang and let some calibres shoot holes in?

[ManDownUnder]

And then find a date that works for everyone.

The weekend following Labour day? I say that as most people will take the long w/e off to do something so the next weekend isn't (generally) booked.

?

I have a good friend I want to intro to having a shoot too if that could work out...

[The Pastor]

swinging targets are better for having less ricochets

[jono035]

Mel from trademe? (kidding obviously - but it is kinda funny...)

I have scrap steel here, mostly RHS 1mm walls that would eaily be cut into sections and welded up into frames or shapes of various sizes. It would be full of holes before too long though - is it better to have solid swinging but impenetrable targets or ones that would have a resounding clang and let some calibres shoot holes in?

My figuring is a few lightweight targets for rimfires only would be good mixed with some heavy plate that'll stand up to a fair few rounds from that rowdy bastard with the Moisin, all swingers. Can get some steel strap or thin steel bar and bolt it onto the targets for ease. Even a solid and impenetrable target should make a good clang when hit...

[Indiana_Jones]

Why you gotta hate on the Mosin now Jono? lol

-Indy

[wbks]

So with steel targets for noise, do you get many ricochets?

[jono035]

Why you gotta hate on the Mosin now Jono? lol

-Indy

Not hating on the Mosin, just saying that if we put up some thin steel targets for .22LR plinking then we better make sure the guys with the centerfires know which ones not to shoot at <_<

[jono035]

So with steel targets for noise, do you get many ricochets?

Ricochets are only really a problem with the shorter fatter bullets like .22LR or pistol rounds which are lower energy rounds anyway. Even then you don't get bullets turning around and coming back. Chris was saying that by hanging the targets from a strap over a bar then the targets can be angled towards the ground meaning any rounds will be deflected downwards.

The bigger problem is with copper jacketed rounds that have enough energy to penetrate the steel plates. The lead core goes through the plate and the copper jacket peels off and comes flying back in the opposite direction. Makes a hell of a noise.

[Indiana_Jones]

Not hating on the Mosin, just saying that if we put up some thin steel targets for .22LR plinking then we better make sure the guys with the centerfires know which ones not to shoot at <_<

I know you're not, I'm just being silly ^_^

And yea, we'll have to make sure of that, otherwise the .22 targets will be gone in 5 mins lol

-Indy

[jono035]

I know you're not, I'm just being silly ^_^

And yea, we'll have to make sure of that, otherwise the .22 targets will be gone in 5 mins lol

-Indy

yeah, any I really don't want to give myself the excuse of 'oh, well maybe it just went through one of the holes'!

[wbks]

The bigger problem is with copper jacketed rounds that have enough energy to penetrate the steel plates. The lead core goes through the plate and the copper jacket peels off and comes flying back in the opposite direction. Makes a hell of a noise.
Oh yea I remember that from the .50 ricochet video on youtube.

[sAsLEX]

fuck another "gunman" on the news....

[jono035]

Chris: What does your projectile casting setup consist of? I was just looking at some of the Lee products and their bullet molds are pretty damn cheap...

With the lubrisizer thing you had, were those lube quantities specific to BP or would you do the same for smokeless? I noticed Lee has a spray on lube for cast bullets that apparently dries like varnish, seems like an interesting option (I'm not sure how critical the sizing step is though).

[geoffm]

My figuring is a few lightweight targets for rimfires only would be good mixed with some heavy plate that'll stand up to a fair few rounds from that rowdy bastard with the Moisin, all swingers. Can get some steel strap or thin steel bar and bolt it onto the targets for ease. Even a solid and impenetrable target should make a good clang when hit...

I have the tools and welders, if anyone can get their ands on some 10mm + plate and wants to help.
I may have some 8mm plate in the workshop, but thicker is better. May even have some 25mm

[The Pastor]

I have the tools and welders, if anyone can get their ands on some 10mm + plate and wants to help.
I may have some 8mm plate in the workshop, but thicker is better. May even have some 25mm

you offering to carry the 25mm targets to the range then? :P:2guns::laugh:

[The Pastor]

on more interesting things, here is what the 308mxlr can do (my rifle) on the biggest wild life in africa (that you're allowed to shoot)

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,33818.0.html

[Hinny]

on more interesting things, here is what the 308mxlr can do (my rifle) on the biggest wild life in africa (that you're allowed to shoot)

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,33818.0.html

The 'Great White Hunter' shot a Zebra.
FFS
Wouldn't that be like the great white hunters that shoot lambs?
Plonker.

[jono035]

I have the tools and welders, if anyone can get their ands on some 10mm + plate and wants to help.
I may have some 8mm plate in the workshop, but thicker is better. May even have some 25mm

That'd be damn awesome mate.

RM: I've already volunteered you as carry-bitch, sorry :D

Any ideas on what would make good target sizes guys? Smaller is probably better for the centerfires because a 600mm diameter round target at 12mm thick is 30kg of steel...

What about 600mm, 300mm, 150mm diameter circles in 12mm thickness for the 100m end? Would that stand up to a .308 or the Mosin?
Maybe a few small ones for .22s at the middle distance, 300mm, 100mm perhaps? These could probably be something like that plate RM brought along, 2mm or something?

What would be good ones to have for the 600m range chris? Also a couple of targets in 8mm for things like chris' lever action could be fun too?

Round would look best but square would probably be easiest and involve the least offcut metal, any thoughts?

Painting could be nice too.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'd say go for square for ease and yea, gotta paint them a bright colour so my shit eyes can see it lol

-Indy

[jono035]

I'd say go for square for ease and yea, gotta paint them a bright colour so my shit eyes can see it lol

-Indy

Don't worry, we'll make one that is 1200x1200 and paint it flouro orange just for you and the Mosin ;)

[ManDownUnder]

Don't worry, we'll make one that is 1200x1200 and paint it flouro orange just for you and the Mosin ;)

Cool so that's my 25m target sorted... what about something for 50?

[jono035]

Cool so that's my 25m target sorted... what about something for 50?

See if Chris minds us painting his cliff orange?

[Mr Merde]

Chris: What does your projectile casting setup consist of? I was just looking at some of the Lee products and their bullet molds are pretty damn cheap...

With the lubrisizer thing you had, were those lube quantities specific to BP or would you do the same for smokeless? I noticed Lee has a spray on lube for cast bullets that apparently dries like varnish, seems like an interesting option (I'm not sure how critical the sizing step is though).

To casat projectiles

A casting pot of some sort. Lead needs to get to about 800 degrees Fareneight.

A dipper to get the lead out of the pot.

A mould ( Lee are OK but are made of aluminium so life isnt too great if you cast a lot.

Eye protection, heavy leather gloves (hot lead hurts),

Lubricisor works for both lack powder and modern. I also have sizing dies set in my luricisor

When you cast a bullet it will throw at a certain diameter.

eg my 44 mould throws a bullet with a diameter of .43

a 44 mag is .429

Soft lead will obdurate to fit this but if you cast harder bullets you will have pressure problems.

size them.


My 45-70 mould is supposed to throw a .458 dia bullet. I put it through the sizer for .458 and there is always a tiny little lead shaved off.

I jknow it is a .458 then

[jono035]

Thanks for that Chris. I noticed Lee make a bullet sizer die and ram that will go in a standard press (doesn't lube though) and sell some spray on stuff that dries hard which sounds like a handy convenience...

What do you use for the lead? Do you aim for a specific alloy or go with whatever results?

[Mr Merde]

on more interesting things, here is what the 308mxlr can do (my rifle) on the biggest wild life in africa (that you're allowed to shoot)

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,33818.0.html


In Zimbabwe you are allowed to shoot elephant, if you get the appropriate licence.

They have a major problem with too many elephant in their country. You cant just relocate a 3 tonne animal

[Mr Merde]

Don't worry, we'll make one that is 1200x1200 and paint it flouro orange just for you and the Mosin ;)

Have to be a big target. Dont forget he was missing the cliff most of the time and hitting the ground if he had a lucky shot

[Mr Merde]

Thanks for that Chris. I noticed Lee make a bullet sizer die and ram that will go in a standard press (doesn't lube though) and sell some spray on stuff that dries hard which sounds like a handy convenience...

What do you use for the lead? Do you aim for a specific alloy or go with whatever results?


For my BP rounds I get lead from the scrap merchants. About $2 a kilo

I mix it with pure tin at about 1:20 tin \lead to give it a bit of hardness.

Wheelweights and linotype work really well also. So does the inclusion of a little solder. If you want harder bullets.

If you are goung to push them over about 1700fps you would be best putting a gas check on the basde of the bullet.

[Mr Merde]

See if Chris minds us painting his cliff orange?

He'd still miss

I swear some of his rounds have defied gravity as they never4 seemed to hit anything. They are just hovering around, confused.

[The Pastor]

did u see the size of that zebra? i never realised they were so big.

He'd of shot it in a game park, i'd imagine they bread them to be shot, no zebra to shoot, no money

[jono035]

He'd still miss

I swear some of his rounds have defied gravity as they never4 seemed to hit anything. They are just hovering around, confused.

They got lost on the way? Maybe we need some clear signposting then, rather than bigger targets?

Going to give reloaders a call and see what the deal is. May wander around later today and have a chat with them about a lee 50th anniversary setup and pricing for a lead pot, moulds and sizer.

Which means I'll need to build a bench in the shed, what a pain...

[Drunken Monkey]

The 'Great White Hunter' shot a Zebra.
FFS
Wouldn't that be like the great white hunters that shoot lambs?
Plonker.

I think you may be lost. Try a different thread.

[Indiana_Jones]

He'd still miss

I swear some of his rounds have defied gravity as they never4 seemed to hit anything. They are just hovering around, confused.

Don't be hard on Wolf....

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Don't be hard on Wolf....

-Indy

Never mentioned Wolf oh great hunter of clouds

[Indiana_Jones]

Never mentioned Wolf oh great hunter of clouds

hey man, they looked at me funny!

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

hey man, they looked at me funny!

-Indy


But so does your mother I'm told

[Indiana_Jones]

But so does your mother I'm told

Daddy?

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

did u see the size of that zebra? i never realised they were so big.

He'd of shot it in a game park, i'd imagine they bread them to be shot, no zebra to shoot, no money

I wonder what they taste like.

Lions like them, must be good.

Mmmmmm MEAT

[Indiana_Jones]

we should release some 'game' for the great KB shoot lol

-Indy

[twistemotion]

The 'Great White Hunter' shot a Zebra.
FFS
Wouldn't that be like the great white hunters that shoot lambs?
Plonker.
I don't understand your post Hinny. Zebras are large wild animals. Lambs are small livestock.

[Mr Merde]

I don't understand your post Hinny. Zebras are large wild animals. Lambs are small livestock.

But they are so cute !!!

[Drunken Monkey]

But they are so cute !!!

hey, easy on there sheep shagger!

[Mr Merde]

hey, easy on there sheep shagger!

Just cos I lived in Wales and have velcro flies on my trou........

[wbks]

I don't understand your post Hinny. Zebras are large wild animals. Lambs are small livestock.I think what he's getting at is that it's not exactly a fearsome beast that will charge you if it sees you like you would expect "the great white hunter" to down, like an elephant or a lion or something

[Hinny]

I don't understand your post Hinny. Zebras are large wild animals. Lambs are small livestock.

It would be as exciting as shooting horses. Oh Yay!
Stalk a zebra - yeah right. Drive to within sixty metres and shoot it. Oh Great White Pukka Sahib.
The thrill may simply be in seeing an animal die. I imagine it is the same for those demented souls that slaughter lambs. That is not an infrequent occurrence.

Compare that kill to say an N.Z. high country Thar hunt. Eight to ten hour climb to a spotted animal, 600yd shot yada yada

Shooting a zebra would be more like shooting fish in a barrel.

[geoffm]

That'd be damn awesome mate.

RM: I've already volunteered you as carry-bitch, sorry :D

Any ideas on what would make good target sizes guys? Smaller is probably better for the centerfires because a 600mm diameter round target at 12mm thick is 30kg of steel...

What about 600mm, 300mm, 150mm diameter circles in 12mm thickness for the 100m end? Would that stand up to a .308 or the Mosin?
Maybe a few small ones for .22s at the middle distance, 300mm, 100mm perhaps? These could probably be something like that plate RM brought along, 2mm or something?

What would be good ones to have for the 600m range chris? Also a couple of targets in 8mm for things like chris' lever action could be fun too?

Round would look best but square would probably be easiest and involve the least offcut metal, any thoughts?

Painting could be nice too.

7.62x39 goes through 8-10mm steel wihtout slowing down. 0.223 puts a crater in it. For 22LR, almost anything will do.
So have we got any takers for a working bee and donations for steel?
Geoff

[jono035]

7.62x39 goes through 8-10mm steel wihtout slowing down. 0.223 puts a crater in it. For 22LR, almost anything will do.
So have we got any takers for a working bee and donations for steel?
Geoff

I can donate the time and a reasonable amount of money (the rest I'm going to steal from Indy's wallet), it is mostly the tools and some way of actually getting my hands on some decent steel that I need :p

Indy: Going to go down to reloaders and have a chat with them tomorrow afternoon, did you get your setup from stock or have to get it in? I'm not too worried either way because I have to find some timber and make myself a bench first...

Hinny: I get your point but do you really think the strangest thing about your average american redneck is a desire to shoot a Zebra?

[Indiana_Jones]

Indy: Going to go down to reloaders and have a chat with them tomorrow afternoon, did you get your setup from stock or have to get it in? I'm not too worried either way because I have to find some timber and make myself a bench first...


I got my set up from stock, though they didn't have a .303 die as a wanted so got a 7.62x54R instead.

they also didn't have .311 projectiles >_< but I wasn't sure which ones i needed and got them later when I was.

Everything else they have :niceone:

Pick yourself up a nice MN while you're there :D

-Indy

[jono035]

Pick yourself up a nice MN while you're there :D

That's disturbingly tempting I have to say... Of course, that means I need more gun rack space and thus the problems start...

For the same price I'm thinking a lead casting rig could be the mutt's proverbials given that projectiles seem to be about half the cost of reloading for pistols...

Maybe you should get hold of a cast for a gas-checked lead projectile for that thing and cast a few? The cost of jacketed projectiles is insanity...

Edit: Found a forum post from a guy using 160grain projectiles at 2400fps that have been quenched after being cast from wheel weight lead... Out of one of the Lee moulds so not that spendy at all...

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://usera.ImageCave.com/Zapruder/nsamosin1.JPG">

Go on father...

-Indy

[wbks]

Nice. So where do you guys shoot outdoors? Just private land or is there a range around here?

[Indiana_Jones]

Nice. So where do you guys shoot outdoors? Just private land or is there a range around here?

We goto Mr. Merde's place more often then not.

AKA 'The range'

-Indy

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Indy. that is a bloody nice looking rifle. I take it you've refinished the woodwork ?

[Indiana_Jones]

Indy. that is a bloody nice looking rifle. I take it you've refinished the woodwork ?

Nope, that's how I got it.

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

And the other two...



<img src="http://usera.ImageCave.com/Zapruder/nsamosin2.JPG">

<img src="http://usera.ImageCave.com/Zapruder/nsamosin3.JPG">


Will try to do the stock on the 'Sniper' 91/30 sometime after I move flats this month coming.

-Indy

[Wolf]

That sniper model looks great, dude. A trifle green with envy, here.

Careful that some pillock doesn't decide the bayonets make the others look too scary, eh.

[jono035]

That sniper model looks great, dude. A trifle green with envy, here.

The sniper one shot very nicely indeed last weekend. No idea if I hit anything with it, but a boatload of fun all the same...

[Indiana_Jones]

The sniper one shot very nicely indeed last weekend. No idea if I hit anything with it, but a boatload of fun all the same...

Should of gone for a bottle, that was wicked fun!

-Indy

[jono035]

Should of gone for a bottle, that was wicked fun!

-Indy

You bastards had already destroyed them all! May have to bring along a few next time, was pretty damn fun just watching them...

[Indiana_Jones]

Good point mate, I'll have to remember to save a few bottles up also. :)

-Indy

[jono035]

Good point mate, I'll have to remember to save a few bottles up also. :)

-Indy

Yeah, it just occurred to me that you can still throw the mangled remains into the recycling, too :p

[JDK]

Howdy
Has anyone been in to reloaders in the last wee while just on the look out for a hammered Baikal shotgun IZH 43K for my better 1/2 (some say happy birthday with flowers others buy guns HAHAHA )
any hows seem to recall in one of there flyers they has them for sale a while back
thanks
JDK

[Mr Merde]

Asked a mate in the CAS shooting game what steel was used in the sport for the targets.

Bi Alloy

10 mm

Does this mean anything to you? Not to me

Chris

[The Pastor]

Howdy
Has anyone been in to reloaders in the last wee while just on the look out for a hammered Baikal shotgun IZH 43K for my better 1/2 (some say happy birthday with flowers others buy guns HAHAHA )
any hows seem to recall in one of there flyers they has them for sale a while back
thanks
JDK
I have a baikal side by side, or at least i think i have one - guy i bought it off didnt know what it was, but its not the one your after!

[ManDownUnder]

Good point mate, I'll have to remember to save a few bottles up also. :)

-Indy

What kind of bottles? I'll store some up too (it's always fun making stuff go BOOF!)

[jono035]

Asked a mate in the CAS shooting game what steel was used in the sport for the targets.

Bi Alloy

10 mm

Does this mean anything to you? Not to me

Chris

Well it looks like High Speed Steel can also be called Bi-Metal Steel... Perhaps that?

Most of the places where you can buy these targets ready made make a bit deal about what hardness their steels are, normally AR500 which is a hardened, wear resistant steel. The 500 is the nominal Brinell hardness. Mild steel is 120 on the Brinell scale apparently with stainless at 200 and hardened tool steel at 1500-2k

[ManDownUnder]

Well it looks like High Speed Steel

I'd be f'n amased if it was High Speed Steel... and not sure I'd want to pay for it. Might as well use Emeralds for bullseyes

[JDK]

think the stuff ya thinking of is bisalloy 500 hard as hell but carefully if heated while cut can lose some hardness near the cut ..

seem to recall rifle targets are thicker (non cas shooting ) 12-14 MM

http://www.6mmbr.com/reactivetargets.html

http://www.arntzentargets.com/

http://www.gunsteel.com/

http://safedirection.com/reactivesteeltargets/urbanrifletarget.html

other thing is how the plates hang ya want them to splatter the round on to the ground top edge of plate cut back so ya just have a flush edge on top not something that looks like a roof the round could bounce off


i have some 10 mm mild plate that if flat is ok but will get small dints after a lot of shooting with lead CAS rounds (under 1000 fps pistol and under 1400 fps rifle) even shot them with 45/70 200+ meters not realy a prob 7mm08 will punch a hole in them tho
catch ya
JDK

[jono035]

i have some 10 mm mild plate that if flat is ok but will get small dints after a lot of shooting with lead CAS rounds

Ahh, Bisalloy 500, same kinda thing as AR500 no doubt, thanks for the info! I've seen a few places mention that you have to be careful how hot you let it get and that a laser cutter or water jet is a better cutting method if you can get it, although I don't think I'm that concerned..

Jacketed rifle rounds are the ones to be wary of from the sounds. Another reason to start doing some casting, I guess.

[Mr Merde]

There is an engineering company, in Thames, turning out targets for CAS.

Something like $180 each.

I know that Waiuku pistol club has bought quite a fewe and Dome Valley club has bought 30 odd targets.

If anyone is interested I can get the contact details.

Chris

[The Pastor]

$180 buys 4.5 goats.......

[Mr Merde]

$180 buys 4.5 goats.......


Looking for a hareem then?

[JDK]

Howdy
yea i think AR500 is a USA thing bisalloy i think is a ozzie rateing /product name
i'd have to look it up a while back i looked in to it to help out a mate getting some steel in from over seas
http://www.bisalloy.com.au/files/specs/Bisplate500.pdf
http://www.steelife.com/AR%20500.htm

think there is a AP rateing too for bullet proof plateing

water jet cutting is best as it's a cold cut but costs a bit more ..

think on the hunting and fishing forum there is a thing on long range shooting and plates
http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1231012625/all
http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1203733099/0
seems to be 16mm thick thats a lump of steel but it will last ya a long time
catch ya
JDK

[jono035]

Thanks for the info JDK.

Just went in to Reloader's Supplies but they had sold out of the Lee 50th Anniversary sets. Have one on order though so hopefully will get my hands on it in a few weeks. Also checked out the cost of the materials and with primers at 10c each, jacketed bulk projectiles at 15c and powder at around 3c per round thats $0.28 with my own brass.

Have seen better deals on powder/primers and some lead projectiles at 8.5c each on trademe/gunriflereload.co.nz

Asked the guy at reloaders supplies about lead casting setups but his opinion was that it wasn't worthwhile due to the high cost of scrap lead now ($10/kg?). Might have to put that idea on hold until I'm certain I can find a cheap supply of lead.

[Mr Merde]

Thanks for the info JDK.

Just went in to Reloader's Supplies but they had sold out of the Lee 50th Anniversary sets. Have one on order though so hopefully will get my hands on it in a few weeks. Also checked out the cost of the materials and with primers at 10c each, jacketed bulk projectiles at 15c and powder at around 3c per round thats $0.28 with my own brass.

Have seen better deals on powder/primers and some lead projectiles at 8.5c each on trademe/gunriflereload.co.nz

Asked the guy at reloaders supplies about lead casting setups but his opinion was that it wasn't worthwhile due to the high cost of scrap lead now ($10/kg?). Might have to put that idea on hold until I'm certain I can find a cheap supply of lead.

I pay $2 per kg

[jono035]

I pay $2 per kg

Yeah, which is what had me confused, where was that from?

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, which is what had me confused, where was that from?

Local scrap merchants

[jono035]

Local scrap merchants

Ok, will ring around a few places and see what the story is around here.

[Mr Merde]

Ok, will ring around a few places and see what the story is around here.

Lets talk the ecconomics of casting.

There are approx 7200 gns in a pound or 15,84o gns to 1 kg

I cast .44 calibre 200gn projectiles therefore 15,840\200 = 79.2

I pay $2 for scrap lead so 200 cents\ 79.2= .53 cents per projectile.

Even if lead were $10 per kg then the cost of the projectile would only be 2.65 cents each.

Now a box of factory jacket bullets will cost you about $50 for 100 or 50 cents each. Thats 20 times more expensive than my cast bullets.

Not counting the brass.

1 head 2.6 cents (assuming lead costs me $10 kg)
1 primer 1 cent
5 gns AS50 powder 4.8 cents

So I pay 6.4 cents per bullet produced.

100 .44 mag rounds for $6.40
1000 rounds for $64.00

Match that with factory ammo or with homemade using factory projectile.

[JDK]

yea the costs soon mount up
cost me about $130 /1000 for hard cast coated bullets
say $93/1000
and about $70 /1000 for powder (AP70 at 7 Grs a load )
time not counted or brass
just a tad under 30 bucks a 100 for 45 colt down to 25 useing a brought cast bullet ..
toss in black powder at 45 bucks a pound (223 rounds per pound ) it's about 13 cents a round more but hell if it blows ya hair back who cares ..
i know some of my hunting rifles there is bugger all in it with some ammo on sale etc etc but i can build up a load that suits my rifles toped off with the type of bullet i want etc etc
catch ya
JDK

[Mr Merde]

yea the costs soon mount up
cost me about $130 /1000 for hard cast coated bullets
say $93/1000
and about $70 /1000 for powder (AP70 at 7 Grs a load )
time not counted or brass
just a tad under 30 bucks a 100 for 45 colt down to 25 useing a brought cast bullet ..
toss in black powder at 45 bucks a pound (223 rounds per pound ) it's about 13 cents a round more but hell if it blows ya hair back who cares ..
i know some of my hunting rifles there is bugger all in it with some ammo on sale etc etc but i can build up a load that suits my rifles toped off with the type of bullet i want etc etc
catch ya
JDK

Black powder is a whole new ball game.

What price the smoke , the thunder and the flame?

How do you load up your BP.

I use a filler. Considering that 50% of the powder doesnt get burnt by becomes the smoke cloud.

.44 mag, 30gns by vol BP with a topping of semolina to give the compression needed for BP.

Less recoil, just as accurate, lots of smoke, cheaper by 30% on a full load, gives me another 100 rounds or so to the lb of powder.

Shotgun is loaded straight, long range pistol calibre is a full load. Just love the 2 ft long flame from the muzzle.

[JDK]

HAHAAH well about 32 Gr's of ffG goex a 250Gr pill on top (45 colt) seems to work ok have not tryed cutting it back was shooting 80 Gr's in shot gun the earth moves HAHA
still learning tho only shot black the last few months as i gave up smokeing not too sure if thats a good thing in all ways ..
got a 3rd placeing shooting black on the west cost over the weekend so doing something right not bad for arseing up in the garden and haveing a wee sleep there
tip for young players if drinking in schools don't be the only one drinking pints and only be in one school HAHAHA
JDK

[Mr Merde]

HAHAAH well about 32 Gr's of ffG goex a 250Gr pill on top (45 colt) seems to work ok have not tryed cutting it back was shooting 80 Gr's in shot gun the earth moves HAHA
still learning tho only shot black the last few months as i gave up smokeing not too sure if thats a good thing in all ways ..
got a 3rd placeing shooting black on the west cost over the weekend so doing something right not bad for arseing up in the garden and haveing a wee sleep there
tip for young players if drinking in schools don't be the only one drinking pints and only be in one school HAHAHA
JDK

Northland regioal at bWaiuku this weekend. Cant shoot but will spectate.

Guest over from UK will be interested, he shoots BP long range at Bisley

[jono035]

1 head 2.6 cents (assuming lead costs me $10 kg)
1 primer 1 cent
5 gns AS50 powder 4.8 cents


Ok, I'll throw my numbers into the mix and see what falls out.

150gr projectiles = 10grams, so 100 projectiles per kg of lead. That is 10c per projectile at $10/kg or 2c per projectile at $2/kg.

Reloader's is selling 9mm jacketed projectiles at $75 per 500 = 15c each.
Trademe has a guy selling em lubed and sized for $85 for 1000 = 8.5c each.

At $10/kg then I'd only be saving 5c/round for jacketed or paying 1.5c/round more than the trademe guy. This is why I was concerned with what the guy said. I think your price of $2/kg is more accurate but if I have to drive to Onewhero to get the lead then it makes things a bit difficult!

Where are you getting primers from and in what quantities, that sounds like a bargain! Looking at small pistol primers (9mm) Reloaders had them at $99 for 1000 (10c each) and there are some on gunriflereload.co.nz at $150 for 2500 (6c each).

So far my numbers are looking like:
15c for jacketed projectile, 8.5c for plain lead
3c for powder ($215/2kg of AD70 at 4grains per case)
6c for primer
24c per round for jacketed, 17.5c per round for plain lead.

[The Pastor]

my uber awesome boolit is $3 / round - I win!

[Indiana_Jones]

my uber awesome boolit is $3 / round - I win!

Your prize is an empty wallet! lol yay!

-Indy

[jono035]

my uber awesome boolit is $3 / round - I win!

On that note, while I was in Reloader's Supplies I had a look at the Marlin 1894 that's a pretty nice looking lever gun although it was a bit stiffer than the Rossi that I was also looking at. $1200 but apparently for the next batch of Rossis they get in the price is going to go up to pretty close to that anyway.

[ManDownUnder]

5 gns AS50 powder 4.8 cents

5 grains? What are loading, pistol rounds? I know it's a big round but the 270WSM takes 58.5grains of 2209...

[jono035]

5 grains? What are loading, pistol rounds? I know it's a big round but the 270WSM takes 58.5grains of 2209...

9mm Parabellum: 4gr of AD70N Powder on a 147gr projectile gets 1100fps apparently.

I think Chris is referring to a .44 magnum target load possibly. Max for AD70N in .44 mag is about 11gr

[Flip]

Ummmm black powder. Love the stuff.

I shoot a light weight 54 cal hawkins rifle, its accurate and fast at 1800ft/sec and its 240 grain round ball has gone front to back long ways through a small deer. It won't shoot mine balls the rifling is too long.

I also shoot a 75 cal smooth bore brown bess, that I am sorting out right now. I haven't got it to shoot very well but its a work in progress.

Used to shoot a 44-40 with black powder and hard 50% lino bullets. I also load 308W with a 130 grain gas checked lino bullets.

[ManDownUnder]

9mm Parabellum: 4gr of AD70N Powder on a 147gr projectile gets 1100fps apparently.

I think Chris is referring to a .44 magnum target load possibly. Max for AD70N in .44 mag is about 11gr

Gotcha. Cheers. Damned rifles are a bit more pricey to run...

$60 for 500grams of 2209 = 49.5c/round... and a sore shoulder if you do it wrong :)

[jono035]

Gotcha. Cheers. Damned rifles are a bit more pricey to run...

$60 for 500grams of 2209 = 49.5c/round... and a sore shoulder if you do it wrong :)

Lol, I think it is much the same in terms of price. Sure the rounds cost you 5x as much but you use 5x fewer of them, too! Shooting at the range I could blow through 50 rounds in an hour without hassle at all and I'm a pretty low volume shooter comparatively. (At least until I'm reloading...)

[ManDownUnder]

Lol, I think it is much the same in terms of price. Sure the rounds cost you 5x as much but you use 5x fewer of them, too! Shooting at the range I could blow through 50 rounds in an hour without hassle at all and I'm a pretty low volume shooter comparatively. (At least until I'm reloading...)

LOL - you are proof positive of Parkinsons law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law) mate...... or more precisely... I believe it's his 2nd law.

[jono035]

LOL - you are proof positive of Parkinsons law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law) mate...... or more precisely... I believe it's his 2nd law.

Hahaha yep. Have heard that before.

[geoffm]

Asked a mate in the CAS shooting game what steel was used in the sport for the targets.

Bi Alloy

10 mm

Does this mean anything to you? Not to me

Chris

Probalby Bisalloy - basically armour plate. Not available at my local engineers supplies...

[twistemotion]

Shooting a zebra would be more like shooting fish in a barrel.
Yes Hinny, fish in a barrel. So hunting Zebras is not your thing, but bear in mind that hunted animals behave very differently to ones in game parks where there's no hunting. Have you been watching a lot of Animal Planet episodes lately? :rolleyes:

[Mr Merde]

5 grains? What are loading, pistol rounds? I know it's a big round but the 270WSM takes 58.5grains of 2209...

.44 mag soft loads to train with. Trying to replicate the mv of bp. About 1000 fps

Cheaper to shoot modern in training and bp in contest.

Can still group quite nicely on my range. Target on base of cliff about 120 metres distant, if I do my bit. You know the range quite well if I remember.

With full load of BP in the rifle I can hit targets out to 200 yards reasonably well, 8\10 hits in long range pistol calibre at Carterton two years ago. Fluffed the first and knew I pulled the last shot as soon as I fired.

I should sit on my hill and learn the rifle at distance I suppose but the problem with all these shooters is that I never know which one to use at any given time.

[The Pastor]

use them all.....

[Mr Merde]

All very quiet here today.

Run out of conversation?

[Flip]

I found with BP in a 44-40 the first few rounds went OK then the accuracy dropped off after 10 or so.

[ManDownUnder]

All very quiet here today.

Run out of conversation?

Waiting on the office of the Privacy Commissioner here... Spoke with one of the head honchos of TM support and he actually gave me a few reasonable explanations of what is going on but I'm getting the full story together. I put a few suggestions back to him in respect of TM's need to do what they want, while not alienating the shooting comunity.

Found the .22 is in urgent need of sighting in (that Mynah was a very lucky bird... had it been the HMR he'd have been eel food).

otherwise - one day at a time...

oooo and a fly just came into the office.,.. and it's going to DIE!!!!!!!!! (Fly spray - no guns involved...)

[Mr Merde]

Waiting on the office of the Privacy Commissioner here... Spoke with one of the head honchos of TM support and he actually gave me a few reasonable explanations of what is going on but I'm getting the full story together. I put a few suggestions back to him in respect of TM's need to do what they want, while not alienating the shooting comunity.

Found the .22 is in urgent need of sighting in (that Mynah was a very lucky bird... had it been the HMR he'd have been eel food).

otherwise - one day at a time...

oooo and a fly just came into the office.,.. and it's going to DIE!!!!!!!!! (Fly spray - no guns involved...)

Did you get the e-mail asking you to grade the customer support you received?
I was none to complimentary I must admit.

[Swoop]

I'm seriously impressed with the prices of the Norinco M-14's that Reloaders has!
$695 bucks!

I had one years ago and they are lovely rifles.

[jono035]

I'm seriously impressed with the prices of the Norinco M-14's that Reloaders has!
$695 bucks!

I had one years ago and they are lovely rifles.

Yeah, they showed me one of those when I was in there asking about the press, have to say it looks pretty sweet. You had one of the Norinco ones? How well did it shoot?

[Swoop]

You had one of the Norinco ones? How well did it shoot?
Yeah. One of the first that Ray Carvell imported many moons ago. Good results for a pleb like me!

[jono035]

All very quiet here today.

Run out of conversation?

Girlfriend was in hospital for the past couple of days, just got her home and have been spending the day tidying the place up. Finally finished and I'm just sorting the shed in anticipation of getting the timber for my reloading bench, $80 worth of timber smarts a bit though, but I guess that's what you get when you don't collect stuff like that when you can get it cheap.

[Mr Merde]

I found with BP in a 44-40 the first few rounds went OK then the accuracy dropped off after 10 or so.

You need a good soft lube.

WIth modern wax lubes the bp fouling cakes the barrel and hardens. With a good lube the fouling in the barrel will stay soft and the next round will push it out.

MY .44 carbine with BP leaves a wet ring around the muzzle from the lube.

I make my own from beeswax, cremelta, olive oil.

[Mr Merde]

Girlfriend was in hospital for the past couple of days, just got her home and have been spending the day tidying the place up. Finally finished and I'm just sorting the shed in anticipation of getting the timber for my reloading bench, $80 worth of timber smarts a bit though, but I guess that's what you get when you don't collect stuff like that when you can get it cheap.

Hope she is ok. Pass my good wishes on to the lady.

Chris

[jono035]

Hope she is ok. Pass my good wishes on to the lady.

Chris

Will do, nothing too serious thankfully. Auckland hospital was surprisingly good actually, was impressed.

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/archives/gangsta1/gangsta%201.JPG


nigga what?

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/African%20infantryman%20of%20the%20year%20Liberian %20militiamen%20child%20soldiers%201.jpg

how to shoulder an ak

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/African%20infantryman%20of%20the%20year%20Liberian %20militiamen%20child%20soldiers%2012.jpg

cheep replaceable body armour

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/African%20infantryman%20of%20the%20year%20Liberian %20militias%20African%20militias%20AK%2047%201.JPG

Why navy guys dont adjust to the army that well.

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/African%20infantryman%20of%20the%20year%20Liberian %20militias%20African%20militias%20AK%2047%202.JPG

now if only he had his body armour on....

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/African%20Infantryman%20of%20the%20Year%20Liberian %20militias%20child%20soldiers%20AK%2047%202.jpg

Now thats what I call propper schooling!

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/African%20infantryman%20of%20the%20year%20AK%2047% 20African%20militias.jpg

to many guns, not enough spare hands to do the fly up

[wbks]

Where are those pictures taken from?

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/United%20Nations%20%20Africa%20SA80.jpg

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/British%20Empire%204%20Infantrygurkhas-tirah.jpg

ok now ive heard of music fanatics before, but seriously?

[The Pastor]

http://www.fmft.net/SAS%20Iranian%20Embassy%20Siege%20Gibraltar%20Shoo tings%20Death%20on%20the%20Rock.jpg

[Mr Merde]

http://www.fmft.net/SAS%20Iranian%20Embassy%20Siege%20Gibraltar%20Shoo tings%20Death%20on%20the%20Rock.jpg

Oh so true.

[Wolf]

http://www.fmft.net/African%20infantryman%20of%20the%20year%20Liberian %20militiamen%20child%20soldiers%2012.jpg

cheep replaceable body armour
Oh, dear! That's bad on sooooo many levels.

[Mr Merde]

Yesterday I picked up the latest copy of this magazine.
It is actually my favourite shooting mag and I devour it from cover to cover. I was dismayed to see a full pge add by the police regarding the MSSA changes and another two pages further on with a review by AW McLeod.
I wrote an e-mail to the magazine pointing out the hypocracy of this gentleman.
Below is my e-mail to this magazine
Below that is their reply to me and attached to this post is the e-mail A W McLeods sent to a SL8 owner who was seeking clarification.

Make up your own minds

Dear Sirs,
I have just picked up my latest copy of your magazine , issue #114
I am dismayed to see you running a full page advertisement from the NZ Police, on page
34, regarding their proposed MSSA changes.
I am further dismayed to see that you have run another 2 pages on the review of the
changes. This review being authored by A W McLeod.
I have no idea as to when this was submitted by the said author but I attach a letter
from this author to a concerned citizen with regards to these changes.
In this letter A W McLeod declines to give an opinion as there is an ongoing court
case.
It seems he wont talk to those affected by his proposed changes but he will advertise
them in a national periodical.
This I find condescending and arrogant of the man.
I also would like to bring to your attention the newly formed “National Shooters of
New Zealand” association.
We are a group of shooters who saw our representative sporting bodies ‘selling us down
the river” by entering into discussions with the NZ Police, rather than to challenge
their right to arbitrarily change the rules as they see fit without recourse to the
law of the land.
I feel betrayed by these organisations and have withdrawn all financial support for
them.
I have joined this NSANZ as it seems to be the only group who will actually stand up
and fight for what has been legally promised to us.
Their website is www.nsanz.org.nz (http://www.nsanz.org.nz) and I would encourage all shooters to support the
one group that stood upo to be counted.
We are a small but fast growing group of shooters from all aspects of the sport. The
one thing we have in common is that we do not wish to see the reduction in our sport
by organisations making up their own rules.
If the police are now saying that for the last 13 years they have misinterpreted the
law then surely they should be admonished for sheer incompetence ?
I give you the right to publish this letter if you feel inclined but wish for the
moment to remain anonymous and would appreciate you not publishing my name.,
Thanks for a great magazine
Chris

[Mr Merde]

The reply from NZ Guns

Chris,
Thanks for the update. I will run an abridged version of your letter in our next
issue, and keep your identity confidential as requested.
Regards,
Peter Maxwell

[Flip]

I suspect the Police have overstepped their mandate and are going to come to grief over the E cat reclassification.

[Mr Merde]

I suspect the Police have overstepped their mandate and are going to come to grief over the E cat reclassification.

I do so hope you are correct.
They are there to enforce the laws as they were written into our legislation, not as they feel they should interpret them.


With regards to MSSA the Firearms Act actually states "military pattern grip" not military style. There is a very big difference as military pattern is as dicussed earlier in this thread somewhere, an actual specification not an all encompassing generality.

13 years of incompetance and blatant disregard for the letter of the law. They (the deciding ranks) need to be reminded they arew her to serve notr to rule.

[jono035]

Thanks for the update. I will run an abridged version of your letter in our next

Ask if you can see said 'abridged' version before they publish it to make sure it still sounds the same, have seen some shockers...

[wbks]

Heres a question for someone at least vaguely familiar with how rifles are produced... But first, as a disclaimer, I don't have the tools or money to do this, and don't want to, I'm just curious, so don't worry about being responsible for someone killing themselves while trying to make their own sten gun...:innocent: Why is it that there are plenty of companies that make blank firing replicas but none of them ever shoot live rounds? Semi Autos or Machine Guns, there don't seem to be any home made guns around... There are a few people who make the type of replicas I just mentioned who put it on youtube or other sites, but when someone asks if they fire live rounds they seem to act as if it's the dumbest thing you could possibly do. Thinking about it, I would assume that someone with the skills could get the needed gear and make a rifle that works as well as any mass produced one? Or is that illegal? I was just wondering because with some of the shooting fanatics out there I still haven't seen any home made guns (apart from dodgy gangsters welding tubes together). Even if it is illegal I would have thought I'd see something floating around the internet

[Wolf]

Heres a question for someone at least vaguely familiar with how rifles are produced... But first, as a disclaimer, I don't have the tools or money to do this, and don't want to, I'm just curious, so don't worry about being responsible for someone killing themselves while trying to make their own sten gun...:innocent: Why is it that there are plenty of companies that make blank firing replicas but none of them ever shoot live rounds? Semi Autos or Machine Guns, there don't seem to be any home made guns around... There are a few people who make the type of replicas I just mentioned who put it on youtube or other sites, but when someone asks if they fire live rounds they seem to act as if it's the dumbest thing you could possibly do. Thinking about it, I would assume that someone with the skills could get the needed gear and make a rifle that works as well as any mass produced one? Or is that illegal? I was just wondering because with some of the shooting fanatics out there I still haven't seen any home made guns (apart from dodgy gangsters welding tubes together). Even if it is illegal I would have thought I'd see something floating around the internet
You're just not looking in the right places. :innocent: Manufacturing a rifle (not just smithing or customising an existing one) is doable, how hard it is depends on how complex you want to make it. You know the term "lock, stock and barrel" - those are your key components, of which the stock is probably the easiest as wood is so much easier to work than metal. The barrel could be made smooth-bore like a musket for simplicity, but if you want accuracy, you'll need to find the means to rifle it. You could probably get or manufacture the tools required to do that.

Machining the appropriate chamber for your bullets is a matter of precision measuring and cutting and you would probably have to make some specialised tools for that as well.

Then there's the lock. Modern locks are basically a spring-loaded striker of some description that rams the firing pin into the primer.

How that works varies from separate hammers to in-line mechanisms on rifle bolts.

Then you need to figure how you are going to block the breech. There are many simple means of doing that that may be merely a matter of shaping a large lump of metal into something that swings into place on a hinge.

Bolts would require more extensive milling.

So far as legality goes, I was told that you are allowed to manufacture anything in your licence class - musket, rifle or shotgun in my case.

[jono035]

Why is it that there are plenty of companies that make blank firing replicas but none of them ever shoot live rounds?

There are companies that make replicas that fire live rounds, they are companies like Marlin, Norinco etc.

The companies that make ones that can't fire live rounds do so to avoid certain restrictions and regulations. Also in some cases (re-enactment, live or recorded dramatic use) you don't want a weapon that can fire a real round.

It wouldn't be that hard for someone with a decent metalworking setup to make a home-made gun, especially something simple like an Uzi or one of the other SMGs that fires from an open bolt. You could easily make something with a weighted firing pin that hit the primer through momentum once the bolt had gone home then have the trigger mechanism just latch the bolt back. Would be pretty rubbish and a misfeed may cause the thing to detonate, but it'd work and it'd fire pretty bloody quickly.

Of course, when putting this opinion forward to a hoplophobe who was proposing a full-scale ban on all firearms that weren't single shot 'obviously hunting' rifles I got laughed at. Tempted to do it just out of spite.

If you look into making a wildcat firearm then you'll see there are places that will sell barrel blanks, barrel drills, rifling cutters, chamber reamers so that part is easy, it is really just the receiver for an auto weapon that would be difficult, but again if you wanted something that was just like a single shot, break open pistol that' be easy as hell.

[jono035]

Reloading workbench is finished!

It's pretty utilitarian, and only 1200x600 due to (as you can probably see) some pretty severe space constraints. Should be strong though, 17mm ply worktop, 4x2 frame underneath, almost 100 screws in the damn thing. Have the option of bolting it to the wall/floor if needed too.

Now just need the press etc.

Edit: Mitre 10 Mega is a dangerous friggin place to visit, went in there with plans to buy a saw, builders pencil, screws and timber. Came out with a couple of steel rules, a lamp, a 2x2ft flouro fitting, extension cord + RCD, mitre box + saw, rubber mallet, filter wrench, staple gun, some mains cable and a couple of plugs, fire extinguisher...

[geoffm]

You're just not looking in the right places. :innocent: Manufacturing a rifle (not just smithing or customising an existing one) is doable, how hard it is depends on how complex you want to make it. You know the term "lock, stock and barrel" - those are your key components, of which the stock is probably the easiest as wood is so much easier to work than metal. The barrel could be made smooth-bore like a musket for simplicity, but if you want accuracy, you'll need to find the means to rifle it. You could probably get or manufacture the tools required to do that.

Machining the appropriate chamber for your bullets is a matter of precision measuring and cutting and you would probably have to make some specialised tools for that as well.

Then there's the lock. Modern locks are basically a spring-loaded striker of some description that rams the firing pin into the primer.

How that works varies from separate hammers to in-line mechanisms on rifle bolts.

Then you need to figure how you are going to block the breech. There are many simple means of doing that that may be merely a matter of shaping a large lump of metal into something that swings into place on a hinge.

Bolts would require more extensive milling.

So far as legality goes, I was told that you are allowed to manufacture anything in your licence class - musket, rifle or shotgun in my case.

It is easier to make a fully automatic blowback sub machine gun (think Sten gun) than a semi auto or bolt action. the amount of machining is small and well within the capabilities of a home shop lathe. The gun fires from an open bolt - ie the breech is open and held back by the trigger sear, which releases when the trigger is pulled. The bolt slides forward, stripping a round from the magazine and chambering it. A fixed firing pin (no striker) ignites the primer. Inertia delays opeing the chamber until the bullet has gone - repeat as required.
A minute on google found
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6454642/Expedient-Homemade-Firearms-9MM-Sub-Machine-Gun-luty
or
http://rapidshare.com/files/116852203/firearms_-_Luty__P_A_-_Edpedient_Homemade_Firearms_The_9mm_Submachine_Gu n.pdf
or
http://rapidlibrary.com/index.php?q=homemade+gun+plans

http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2009m2d8-Worried-about-gun-control-Make-your-own-gun

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4746679/Do-It-Yourself-Submachine-Gun-Gerard-Metral-Paladin-Press

There are others as well, right up to 50BMG rifles...
Geoff

[Mr Merde]

Reloading workbench is finished!

It's pretty utilitarian, and only 1200x600 due to (as you can probably see) some pretty severe space constraints. Should be strong though, 17mm ply worktop, 4x2 frame underneath, almost 100 screws in the damn thing. Have the option of bolting it to the wall/floor if needed too.

Now just need the press etc.

Edit: Mitre 10 Mega is a dangerous friggin place to visit, went in there with plans to buy a saw, builders pencil, screws and timber. Came out with a couple of steel rules, a lamp, a 2x2ft flouro fitting, extension cord + RCD, mitre box + saw, rubber mallet, filter wrench, staple gun, some mains cable and a couple of plugs, fire extinguisher...

Looks good Jono.
Welcome to the very addictive world of reloading.
If you think mitre 10 is bad just wait till you walk into a shop looking for reloading gear or components.

Its like a kid in a sweet shop.

Chris

[wbks]

Thanks, guys. That was everything I wanted to know. One more thing, though. I understand how blowback/gas systems work, but with the open bolt blowback and fixed firing pin as you described, obviously the firing pin sits on the primer pushing the round into the chamber for a small amount of time, and the round stops in the chamber while the firing pin keeps going, pushing into the primer igniting it. Do you just make sure the spring has a low enough speed/strength to make sure that it only manages to break into the primer as it has the still round to push against? Jono - With the weighted firing pin, how would you get a jam in between the round leaving the mag and entering the chamber?

[jono035]

Looks good Jono.
Welcome to the very addictive world of reloading.
If you think mitre 10 is bad just wait till you walk into a shop looking for reloading gear or components.

Its like a kid in a sweet shop.

Chris

Did that yesterday in Reloader's Supplies... Between the Marlin 1894 Lever Action, Norinco M14 and the Dillon RL550 they had setup there I was definitely wishing I had a bit more money for spending on toys at the moment.

Had a couple of nice E cat safes there too...

[jono035]

Thanks, guys. That was everything I wanted to know. One more thing, though. I understand how blowback/gas systems work, but with the open bolt blowback and fixed firing pin as you described, obviously the firing pin sits on the primer pushing the round into the chamber for a small amount of time, and the round stops in the chamber while the firing pin keeps going, pushing into the primer igniting it. Do you just make sure the spring has a low enough speed/strength to make sure that it only manages to break into the primer as it has the still round to push against? Jono - With the weighted firing pin, how would you get a jam in between the round leaving the mag and entering the chamber?

You're quite right on the fixed firing pin and rounds failing to fully chamber are a common enough occurrence... If you have a round that has been dented or malformed in some way it won't fully chamber, leaving part of the case wall exposed which will then rupture when ignited. I think the more complicated weapons that fire from an open bolt release the firing pin when they go fully into battery (round completely chambered).

Edit: The 'open-bolt blowback' is just a plain blowback system that fires from an open bolt meaning that the bolt starts off locked back then when the trigger is pulled it gets pushed forward on a spring, stripping a cartridge from the mag, firing it then the bolt is blown backwards by the recoil to its starting position. Generally not as accurate as a weapon that fires from a closed bolt due to the moment of inertia created by the bolt moving forward causing the aim of the weapon to change, but much cheaper and simpler to make up for it.

[wbks]

So with an exposed firing pin how to you make sure that it pushes the round into the chamber rather than hitting the primer?

[Wolf]

So with an exposed firing pin how to you make sure that it pushes the round into the chamber rather than hitting the primer?
I surely do not know, so I'd play safe and use an inertial firing pin that is held to the rear of the bolt by a spring and then continues forward against the spring only when the bolt has come to rest with the round in the chamber.

[wbks]

Are you sure anything as small as a firing pin has enough weight to fly forward under its own weight and hit the primer hard enough? I just have a hard time imagining anything that small having enough "inertial" force. Were there many cases of exposed firing pin rifles or smgs like the sten (i think?) detonating the round before it fully chambers?

[jono035]

Are you sure anything as small as a firing pin has enough weight to fly forward under its own weight and hit the primer hard enough? I just have a hard time imagining anything that small having enough "inertial" force. Were there many cases of exposed firing pin rifles or smgs like the sten (i think?) detonating the round before it fully chambers?

You can always add weight to the firing pin or put a weight behind it to act as a hammer.

The bolt with a fixed firing pin could pick up and chamber the round without a problem, you have to put a fair amount of force on the primer to set it off, then once the round fully chambers and stops, the weight of the bolt would force the pin forward to dent the primer.

As for detonations I really don't know I'm afraid, probably time to start googling!

[Mr Merde]

I have never built a firearm from scratch so here I will have to agree with Jono, start googling. Google is you friend.

WOlf was right, you can build any firearm you hold a licence for. It needs to have a serial number stamped on it somewhere.,

One lad in the CAS game built a working copy of a Colt SAA with a Buntline barrel. He also added the fittings that allowed a shoulder stock to be attached.

Very impressive. Shot well.

[Mr Merde]

Did that yesterday in Reloader's Supplies... Between the Marlin 1894 Lever Action, Norinco M14 and the Dillon RL550 they had setup there I was definitely wishing I had a bit more money for spending on toys at the moment.

Had a couple of nice E cat safes there too...

A friend living down Thames way has 2 of the large Dillon Presses as well as a 550.

He also has a Magna engineereing automatic casting machine capable of casting 1000 projectiles an hour.

Needless to say he buys his lead by the tonne

[jono035]

A friend living down Thames way has 2 of the large Dillon Presses as well as a 550.

He also has a Magna engineereing automatic casting machine capable of casting 1000 projectiles an hour.

Needless to say he buys his lead by the tonne

Wow.

The big ones as in the 1050s? (7 turret completely automatic monsters)

Does he manufacture ammo for a living or something?

[The Pastor]

well looks like ive found my reloading setup.

$225 usd including the reloading gear,308me dies and shipping - which Im getting reamed on over half the price hahaha.

but they have it in stock!

[Mr Merde]

Wow.

The big ones as in the 1050s? (7 turret completely automatic monsters)

Does he manufacture ammo for a living or something?

No he likes to buy toys.

He will sit down and make a few thousand rounds of all that he shoots, at a time.

He also supplies projectiles to his friends. Quite cheaply.

[Wolf]

Are you sure anything as small as a firing pin has enough weight to fly forward under its own weight and hit the primer hard enough? I just have a hard time imagining anything that small having enough "inertial" force.
As Jono said, you have a weighted firing pin.

As you're making it yourself rather than using a stock firing pin, that is a minor matter - you machine the thing with a fair bit of mass at one end and a pointed skinny bit at the other. When you make your bolt block, you make a cavity inside to fit the weight and allow it sufficient forward/rearward travel. The bolt stops, the weighted pin keeps on going, boom!

Cheers, Chris, I'd forgotten the serial number requirement.

[Mr Merde]

I've been toying with the idea of getting some castings from

the States with which to build another single shot rifle.

Could be fun.

[The Pastor]

I've been toying with the idea of getting some castings from

the States with which to build another single shot rifle.

Could be fun.
what you should cast Mr Merde, is a cannon!

[jono035]

what you should cast Mr Merde, is a cannon!

Seconded. Nothing too crazy, 12 pound civil war style cannon or something?

Edit: It fits the category of single shot. There were also rifled cannons in use during the civil war according to ye olde wikipedia, so you could make yourself a single shot 'rifle'

[The Pastor]

i'd be keen to go into partnership with the cannon project as long as it doesnt cost more than 1k :P

[Wolf]

I've often thought that building a muzzle-loading flintlock rifle would be fun.

I doubt any first attempt would be a serious reproduction/replica of an historic firearm, more a working model with the basic lock, stock and barrel, but I'd then want to put the fittings on it (or make another with the fittings) to make it look like a particular 1700s flinter like a Jäger rifle.

The logistics of rifling the barrel would be a good challenge.

[jono035]

i'd be keen to go into partnership with the cannon project as long as it doesnt cost more than 1k :P

Sign me up too. I'd be very keen...

[The Pastor]

Sign me up too. I'd be very keen...
good for a grand? i reckon we could easily make a cannon for 2k

[jono035]

The logistics of rifling the barrel would be a good challenge.

Yeah, that's a slightly curly one. You could try make your own rifling cutter for use with a metal lathe, probably something that gets easier with size, so might be easy for a half inch musket type weapon. That and a metal lathe and you can probably get something that at least vaguely resembles rifling!

[Wolf]

Seconded. Nothing too crazy, 12 pound civil war style cannon or something?

Edit: It fits the category of single shot. There were also rifled cannons in use during the civil war according to ye olde wikipedia, so you could make yourself a single shot 'rifle'
And I'm sure that it would be long enough not to be classed as a pistol.

But remember - no bayonet, hole-through stock or flash suppressor or you'll be in trouble!

[jono035]

good for a grand? i reckon we could easily make a cannon for 2k

Yeah, I could throw a grand into a cannon. There was a story about a guy who cast a cannon for his son's birthday on slashdot the other night, might try find that.

Cast or welded up out of thick wall pipe? Saw an episode of mythbusters where they made one from thick wall pipe by welding a second piece of pipe over the first to form a chamber... Could start with that and then lathe down to a nicer shape.

[jono035]

And I'm sure that it would be long enough not to be classed as a pistol.

But remember - no bayonet, hole-through stock or flash suppressor or you'll be in trouble!

Ahh damnit, if the cannon doesn't have a bayonet then what the hell is the point? :p

[Mr Merde]

what you should cast Mr Merde, is a cannon!

Oh now you are talking.

That could be fun.

[Wolf]

Yeah, that's a slightly curly one. You could try make your own rifling cutter for use with a metal lathe, probably something that gets easier with size, so might be easy for a half inch musket type weapon. That and a metal lathe and you can probably get something that at least vaguely resembles rifling!
My thoughts exactly. It had occured to me that making the tool would be easier for larger calibre firearms than for smaller - won't be making a homemade .17HMR in a hurry...

Looking at the Jäger compared with the Kentucky rifle, the Jäger has a far shorter barrel - which would also make the job easier...

[Wolf]

Oh now you are talking.

That could be fun.
That poor fucking cliff!

[The Pastor]

I think casting would produce better results. we could make a modern 200cc powerd all tertain cart to stick it on so its easy to move

[jono035]

I think casting would produce better results. we could make a modern 200cc powerd all tertain cart to stick it on so its easy to move

So what you're saying is we actually need to build a tank... I like your thinking!

[The Pastor]

http://www.cannon-mania.com/foundry.htm - some cool ones on there but they all seem to be mini cannons

[Mr Merde]

So what you're saying is we actually need to build a tank... I like your thinking!

So we have gone from me building a new single shot to building a tank ot self propelled gun.

Loving this

[Wolf]

I've been toying with the idea of getting some castings from

the States with which to build another single shot rifle.

Could be fun.


what you should cast Mr Merde, is a cannon!


Seconded. Nothing too crazy, 12 pound civil war style cannon or something?

Edit: It fits the category of single shot. There were also rifled cannons in use during the civil war according to ye olde wikipedia, so you could make yourself a single shot 'rifle'


I think casting would produce better results. we could make a modern 200cc powerd all tertain cart to stick it on so its easy to move


So what you're saying is we actually need to build a tank... I like your thinking!


So we have gone from me building a new single shot to building a tank ot self propelled gun.

Loving this

A perfect example of what happens to a simple plan in the hands of a committee!

[jono035]

A perfect example of what happens to a simple plan in the hands of a committee!

Right, well with that attitude we all know who won't be getting a turn firing the self-propelled cannon then.

[Wolf]

Right, well with that attitude we all know who won't be getting a turn firing the self-propelled cannon then.
Ow, my ribs! :killingme

[The Pastor]

if we got someone who was into electronics......... maybe we could make it remote controlled...

[Mr Merde]

if we got someone who was into electronics......... maybe we could make it remote controlled...


Jono035

This is your call isnt it?

[jono035]

if we got someone who was into electronics......... maybe we could make it remote controlled...

Yeah, I could do that.

Lets get the cannon built first, the rest can come later...

[Mr Merde]

if we got someone who was into electronics......... maybe we could make it remote controlled...

I reckon you are all for this so you can use it to go hunting with.

That way you dont have to crawl threough swamps and blackberry patches.

[jono035]

I reckon you are all for this so you can use it to go hunting with.

That way you dont have to crawl threough swamps and blackberry patches.

Hahaha yeah, next thing we know he'll want it helicopter mounted :P

[The Pastor]

yes, we just need to get a decent set of plans then put together a costing and see how it runs from there.

The first question is, how big? i think we should start off smaller rather than bigger - maybe a tennis ball sized projectile?

[Indiana_Jones]

lol I leave you kids alone for a few hours and all hell breaks loose!

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

lol I leave you kids alone for a few hours and all hell breaks loose!

-Indy

A perfect example of arms escalation.

From me thinking about a single shot rifle to it suddenly being proposed we build a rc self propelled gun.

What next?

Anyone into atomics?

[Wolf]

Anyone into atomics?
I know the theory, anyone got any Plutonium?

[Mr Merde]

This would be my ideal project

Anyone got a spare $70 US plus postage

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=11258

Jus for you RM this could be attached to a washing machine motor for the ultimate fun and hunting experience

[Indiana_Jones]

Word on the NSA forums is that Guncity is flogging off some M-14 copies for $599 and SKS copies for $399.

Can't see those prices on the guncity site though.

Pretttttttttttty good price I have to say.

-Indy

[jono035]

yes, we just need to get a decent set of plans then put together a costing and see how it runs from there.

The first question is, how big? i think we should start off smaller rather than bigger - maybe a tennis ball sized projectile?

Saw someone talking about using beer cans filled with concrete as projectiles, sounds look a good place to start.

Tennis ball as starter load (or even as cheap wadding?) and then beer can filled with concrete for an intermediate load...

Rifled or smoothbore? A slightly scaled down version of the 3" ordnance rifle could be interesting, but a smoothbore would be a hell of a lot simpler... I think the rifled guns were wrought too, which would be a hell of a lot more work.

[The Pastor]

smooth bore is what you want. at least for the prototype! cement filled cans sounds like a wonderful idea - a tennis ball would fly if it was able to be held intact..

[jono035]

smooth bore is what you want. at least for the prototype! cement filled cans sounds like a wonderful idea - a tennis ball would fly if it was able to be held intact..

Golf ball in front of half a tennis ball or something? Wouldn't be accurate but by hell it'd fly...

[jono035]

Just looked at a video from Springfield Arsenal where they make some cast bronze cannons, they cast them as a solid block and then cut the bore out later with a lathe... Hell of a process...

[The Pastor]

Just looked at a video from Springfield Arsenal where they make some cast bronze cannons, they cast them as a solid block and then cut the bore out later with a lathe... Hell of a process...
yeah i think thats how you'd have to do it, we need to find some plans online, i know ive seen them before, but cant seem to locate them now

[Mr Merde]

yeah i think thats how you'd have to do it, we need to find some plans online, i know ive seen them before, but cant seem to locate them now

Dixie Arms

[The Pastor]

well it seems you can use a howitzer to hunt deer.... only in the states huh?

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm

[jono035]

well it seems you can use a howitzer to hunt deer.... only in the states huh?

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm

Holy crap. Although from the way that guy was talking about it, it may not be particularly legal... Nailed the deer pretty bloody solidly, though...

[Wolf]

well it seems you can use a howitzer to hunt deer.... only in the states huh?

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm
Standard US belief - you don't need accuracy if you have enough firepower.

That's why they all recommend at least .300WM for anything larger than a squirrel (a .308 should suffice for squirrels, tho'...)

[sAsLEX]

if we got someone who was into electronics......... maybe we could make it remote controlled...

in a gyro stabilised mount for the vehicle it is in as well, some IR and TV sensors mixed in with an array of microphones for slewing to target on any incoming rounds and we will be set!

Shit throw a laser ranger finder on the beast, whack a cpu, thermometer, anemometer and wind vane in it and get some ballistics programme to do the aiming for us as well.



Hahaha yeah, next thing we know he'll want it helicopter mounted :P

One of my Weapon Techs is putting rockets on his RC helicopter. Has some electrically activated rocket motors and a spare channel....... Will be interesting to watch!



I think a Gatling gun would be cool, technically it is only a semi automatic if hand driven.

[The Pastor]

in a gyro stabilised mount for the vehicle it is in as well, some IR and TV sensors mixed in with an array of microphones for slewing to target on any incoming rounds and we will be set!

Shit throw a laser ranger finder on the beast, whack a cpu, thermometer, anemometer and wind vane in it and get some ballistics programme to do the aiming for us as well.




One of my Weapon Techs is putting rockets on his RC helicopter. Has some electrically activated rocket motors and a spare channel....... Will be interesting to watch!



I think a Gatling gun would be cool, technically it is only a semi automatic if hand driven.
then hook a laptop and gps unit up so its controlled via satellite!