The firearm thread

[jono035]

Oh oh 5000 posts! lol

-Indy

*facepalm*

Don't know about transport arrangements for saturday... I'm happy enough to drive again if need be but the $75 in fuel from the last round trip was a little crippling!

[The Pastor]

I'll see my own way there

[Indiana_Jones]

If that's the case Jonno I can make my own way there too.

Don't wanna be a burdon :)

-Indy

[jono035]

Well unless anyone else can give me a ride down then it looks like I'll be driving anyway :p

[Indiana_Jones]

Only got a bike heh.

-Indy

[jono035]

Only got a bike heh.

-Indy

You're going to take the scrambler down with the rifles over your shoulder?

[Indiana_Jones]

You're going to take the scrambler down with the rifles over your shoulder?

Hasn't stopped me before lol

-Indy

[jono035]

Hasn't stopped me before lol

-Indy

Well you could always just scrambler as far as Mt Eden...

[Indiana_Jones]

Well you could always just scrambler as far as Mt Eden...

That I could. I'll give you a text tomorrow etc, see what the weather is upto

Hoping it bloody clears up.

-Indy

[jono035]

That I could. I'll give you a text tomorrow etc, see what the weather is upto

Hoping it bloody clears up.

-Indy

No joke, I've been watching the metservice website slowly crap in my cornflakes for the past week... It went from fine with light showers to pissing down with possible thunder.

[Indiana_Jones]

Well fingers crossed and hopefully it'll clear out, if not we can do it another time.

-Indy

[Wolf]

So, what time? Noon like last time?

keep tabs on here to see if it's cancelled due to crap weather?

[Mr Merde]

So, what time? Noon like last time?

keep tabs on here to see if it's cancelled due to crap weather?

Check the met service towards end of the day. See what tomorrow is expected to bring.

Looks like Sharron and I will be in the house for at least another month, (mid Jan)

[jono035]

Check the met service towards end of the day. See what tomorrow is expected to bring.

Looks like Sharron and I will be in the house for at least another month, (mid Jan)

That's true, the forecast is normally right, just the particular changes in weather often arrive early or late... Assuming the sunday weather is early we could still be ok... (clutching at straws...)

Failing that, lash some sticks together and get a tarp! (or we could just shoot from the balcony :D)

[Wolf]

It'll also depend on what that area gets - Hamilton is supposed to be clearing up, Auckland is supposed to be getting worse, what'll happen in between the two in a different microclimate may vary.

[jono035]

Also, the metservice 3day rainfall model suggests that there will be no rain after noon on saturday because the band will have moved over already...

There is hope!

[Mr Merde]

Also, the metservice 3day rainfall model suggests that there will be no rain for most of saturday because the band will be leaving the mainland late tonight/early tomorrow...

There is hope!

Sweet, Last time was OK but a little dryer would be nice

[jono035]

Sweet, Last time was OK but a little dryer would be nice

Yeah, but I was only fractionally dryer than if I had swam down from Auckland and I still had a complete blast. This time if it looks to still happen I think I'll just prepare a little better and actually remember my raincoat. Might even splash out and buy a pair of gumboots!

Also, possibly, a large umbrella and stand...

I've got an old, slightly ruined frying pan that could be used as a gong too, provided we can figure out how to hang it...

Wonder how well a warehouse cast iron skillet would stand up to .22 rounds...

[jono035]

Weather forecast just changed, tomorrow is now:

Auckland - Morning rain clearing, then fine. Tending southwest.

Hamilton - Morning rain, becoming fine. Easterlies dying away.

Looking good!

[Indiana_Jones]

Hopefully the weather clears, if it's bollocks by 10:30 I shall have to pull out (not that pull out!) I think.

-Indy

[The Pastor]

hopefully the weather clears, if it's bollocks by 10:30 i shall have to pull out (not that pull out!) i think.

-indy
don't want to get wet?

[Mr Merde]

Hopefully the weather clears, if it's bollocks by 10:30 I shall have to pull out (not that pull out!) I think.

-Indy

A good Catholic boy.

Il Papa will be proud of you.

[Drunken Monkey]

Make an announcement here, around 10:30/11:00 - if it's cancelled I will play footy.

[Mr Merde]

Make an announcement here, around 10:30/11:00 - if it's cancelled I will play footy.


Call me at home on 09 232 8225 tomorrow morning and I will give you a weather update for the area.

Chris

[jono035]

Looks good in Auckland and according to the rain radar the main band should have just passed over Chris'... Looks like we're good to go by my figuring...

[Mr Merde]

What a downpour.

It persistantly poured down last night.

Ground here is wet, as it should be after the storm.

Sky as at 8:00am is clear, Darker clouds to the north

No wind, birds are singing.

Overcast with patches of sunshine breaking through. Temperature is cool

The valley floor is water from one side to another,

Let me know what is happening.

I'll post update about 10am

[Mr Merde]

Looks good in Auckland and according to the rain radar the main band should have just passed over Chris'... Looks like we're good to go by my figuring...


I dont think it passed over. I felt like it got here, dumped everything it was carrying and just petered out after that,

My water tanks are overflowing.

[jono035]

As long as the water isn't falling from the sky and our shooting area isn't submerged, I'll be there.

It was pissing down quite spectacularly last night too... Got completely drenched to the skin helping a random guy jump-start his car, poor bastard.

Edit: Chris - from looking at the rain radar I don't think it petered out, it just decided to go shit on somewhere inland a bit :D

[Wolf]

Grey as fuck here but not raining and showing signs of clearing, looking good from this side of the country.

Spectacular storm here last night, too.

[Mr Merde]

Blue sky all around.

Warming up a bit.

Ground real wet but what the hell.

Looking like its going to be a nice mild spring day.

[The Pastor]

today, the guns will go bang!

[Drunken Monkey]

What time? Around 12 again?

[jono035]

today, the guns will go bang!

That's the spirit.

I've bought gumboots, couldn't find a cast iron frying pan though so I may have to content myself with bottles and cans... And possibly a painted steel frying pan as a .22 target :D

DM: 12 is roughly when I was planning on showing up.

[Indiana_Jones]

Up and Adam ladies!

-Indy

[jono035]

Up and Adam ladies!

Brave words from the man who was afraid of the rain yesterday... :Pokey:

[Wolf]

Off to get petrol and provisions, will see you there - if the bike wills it...

[sAsLEX]

Leaving the shore now. Will be a little late.

[wbks]

I may have asked this before, but what is the point of target (rifle) shooters using iron sights rather than scopes?

[scumdog]

I may have asked this before, but what is the point of target (rifle) shooters using iron sights rather than scopes?

More of a challenge??

[Wolf]

Because scopes destroy your confidence by letting you see exactly how much your point of aim is wavering??

Just got back from a great afternoon's shooting and a bbq at Chateau Merde.

Thanks heaps everyone, it was a great day and I really enjoyed meeting more of the KBers and putting faces and voices to the names.

Great day for trying new things, a .308 is definitely on my long-term shopping list and will be definitely shooting clays again - need to learn how to handload so I can make up some BP cartridges for my shottie.

Oh, well, off to bed - up early to head off to paintball later this morning...

Have a great Sunday, all.

[Drunken Monkey]

Ditto that. Great fun, great company and great food!

[Mr Merde]

Once again a great afternoon.

It was fun having you all here and Sharron really enjoyed your company.

So much so that she had a lkittle more rum than was usual for her and had to retire to bed earlier than she usually would have.

Wolf she really enjoyed the conversations with yourself you too Drunken Monkey.

Before we leave this place we will have a massive shooting day. Might as well leave something for the neighbours to talk about.

Looks like from the interest we have had and the two offers so far that it will be about mid Jan that we will be moving.

Clay pigeon was fun. Sorry I kept hitting the little buggers before most of you had even maneged to spot where theyt were flying. I have discoverd that I really enjoy that sport. Not far from the new house there is a Shotgun club and talking to Sharron today we decided that it may be worth joining to further this interest. There is just something about the puff of disintergrating discs that gi ves me a real buzz.

We need something far sgtronger than an aliminium frying pan.

Chris

[jono035]

We need something far sgtronger than an aliminium frying pan.

I dunno, I now have a pretty awesome looking aluminium colander! Will grab some photos and post them later... It held up reasonably until some bastard started putting .44s through it from a levergun...

It was great seeing the familiar faces again and meeting Wolf. Thanks for a great day of shooting and a very enjoyable evening. Thanks again Chris and please thank Sharron for her hospitality.

Chris: Pulled the casting pot to bits and checked out the element and everything then gave the pot a good wirebrushing. Fired it up, melted some small pieces of lead that I had lying around, worked brilliantly. I'm going to have to go scouting tomorrow and find a camp oven or something to melt up that massive ingot so I can try out the molds. Very excited...

[wbks]

Fwaaar... Anyone seen the rifle that uses magnets to control the barrel movement?

[jono035]

Chris: I was just going to copy a commercial shotmaker but someone else has already done it and described how...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=18389&page=2

So, by my figuring, a few pieces of stainless plate welded up to make a trough, a 2kW stove element screwed to the underside to heat it, some stainless nuts and bolts to make the dripper nozzles out of and some steel box section for a frame and it'd be done. Could control the temperature with a scavenged thermostat from a smelting pot or with electronics. Could make the thing with as many/few nozzles as required, but I'm guessing that limiting the surface area of the lead pool would be a good idea... I've spent most of the afternoon thinking about how to control the pool height so you can add heaps of lead and leave it, but I can't think of anything elegant...

The trick is, I need a tig welder and the related metalworking tools. It always comes down to the god damned welder. Could probably cut the pieces to size and get someone else to weld them up though, probably be able to find someone to do it for a box of beer (anyone with a tig please speak now)...

[Mr Merde]

Chris: I was just going to copy a commercial shotmaker but someone else has already done it and described how...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=18389&page=2

So, by my figuring, a few pieces of stainless plate welded up to make a trough, a 2kW stove element screwed to the underside to heat it, some stainless nuts and bolts to make the dripper nozzles out of and some steel box section for a frame and it'd be done. Could control the temperature with a scavenged thermostat from a smelting pot or with electronics. Could make the thing with as many/few nozzles as required, but I'm guessing that limiting the surface area of the lead pool would be a good idea... I've spent most of the afternoon thinking about how to control the pool height so you can add heaps of lead and leave it, but I can't think of anything elegant...

The trick is, I need a tig welder and the related metalworking tools. It always comes down to the god damned welder. Could probably cut the pieces to size and get someone else to weld them up though, probably be able to find someone to do it for a box of beer (anyone with a tig please speak now)...


Looks really good.

Can we hire a tig welder? Can you use one?

I cant

Chris

[jono035]

Looks really good.

Can we hire a tig welder? Can you use one?

I cant

Chris

I've used an arc/mig welder before and with a few pieces of scrap I'm pretty sure I could figure something out. Looks like you can braze it easily enough which, with high-temp filler, could work providing it's used with decent temperature control...

Getting the pieces cut to size is probably the bigger job, I'm sure I can find someone within the KB community happy to do it for a couple of crates...

Edit: Can probably make one out of mild steel actually and just use stainless for the nozzle bolts... With a bit of a spray down with WD40 once it has cooled then it'll be fine... Can make one out of stainless later... Need some plate stock, can weld it up with dad's arc welder while I'm up north for Christmas...

[geoffm]

The trick is, I need a tig welder and the related metalworking tools. It always comes down to the god damned welder. Could probably cut the pieces to size and get someone else to weld them up though, probably be able to find someone to do it for a box of beer (anyone with a tig please speak now)...

I have a tig welder.... If you cut and fit everything, welding it up should be no problem.
Geoff

[Indiana_Jones]

Great weekend guys.

Great to catch up with everyone again.

Great to meet Wolf at long last! Thanks a lot for the 30-30 :)

Thanks to Chris & Sharon for hosting/fueling us with booze lol

Thanks to Scott for the lift

& thanks to the Turkeys for standing still while I shot them lol

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

..Can probably make one out of mild steel actually and just use stainless for the nozzle bolts... ...

Thats what the thing on castbullets looks like

[Wolf]

Still buzzing after the weekend's shooting.

Was one of the best weekends I've ever had - shooting the shit outta stuff one day, paintball the next.

Was utterly fucked last night, though, slept the sleep of the truly exhausted.

Looking forward to a big "Last Hurrah" out at the farm, hope to meet even more of the KB shooters.

[Mr Merde]

Jono

Check this out

http://www.littletonshotmaker.com/


Also this pic

http://www.hotkey.net.au/~orrs/BismuthArticle/Bismuth_page4.jpg

[The Pastor]

I also found this

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4108927.pdf

[jono035]

Bismuth is interesting, will have to check it out. Don't know anything about it as a material to work with really...

That patent is a good find too, RM. Looks like the nozzles would be a bastard to clear and aren't exactly easy to change... The bolts-through-the-side idea would seem to be better if you want to make different size shot...

[The Pastor]

so how dose the lead drip out and not stream out of the hole?

[The Pastor]

oh yeah if you guys want the plans drawn up, indy and myself are autocad pros - you roughly sketch it on paper and we can turn it into plans people can build off.

[jono035]

oh yeah if you guys want the plans drawn up, indy and myself are autocad pros - you roughly sketch it on paper and we can turn it into plans people can build off.

Drawings are for the weak! I already have a solid model of the rough idea built up in ProEngineer but thanks anyway. I'm still trying to think of something to use as the trough that won't require fabrication. The bolts-through-the-bottom idea could be interesting for allowing use of a cast iron frying pan or something...

The height of the lead above the nozzle determines the pressure, which determines the flow rate through the nozzle. Providing the flow rate is low enough, the stream will form droplets. Too much height means shot goes out of round as it flows together, too little height means the shot maker runs slower than it could.

[The Pastor]

so basicly you have to be keeping an eye on it and topping it up to get the correct flow rate?

[jono035]

so basicly you have to be keeping an eye on it and topping it up to get the correct flow rate?

Yeah, that's what I gather, although if it runs low I think it just slows down, the shot size stays the same.

I've fired off an e-mail to a Chinese metals supplier to find out what it costs for ingots of Bismuth but from the pages of a few metal suppliers in the states it could easily be $20 per kg...

[The Pastor]

Not sure what bismuth is, i assume its some kind of fluxed lead, but cant you make your own? wouldnt be hard?

[jono035]

Not sure what bismuth is, i assume its some kind of fluxed lead, but cant you make your own? wouldnt be hard?

Bismuth is a different element. It has a closer density to lead than steel but it isn't bio-accumulative and its compounds are more stable. Basically it's an expensive but less toxic equivalent to lead which allows legal hunting of waterfowl in guns that aren't suitable for steel shot.

Edit: 11.3g/cm^3 for lead, 9.8g/cm^3 for bismuth, around 7.8g/cm^3 for steel. The main advantage is that it is softer than steel while still being nice and dense.

[The Pastor]

Bismuth is a different element. It has a closer density to lead than steel but it isn't bio-accumulative and its compounds are more stable. Basically it's an expensive but less toxic equivalent to lead which allows legal hunting of waterfowl in guns that aren't suitable for steel shot.
oh, thats kinda cool.

[jono035]

oh, thats kinda cool.

Yeah, most of this shotgun stuff is completely new to me, I've never bothered looking into it before... Might have to get myself one now...

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, that's what I gather, although if it runs low I think it just slows down, the shot size stays the same.

I've fired off an e-mail to a Chinese metals supplier to find out what it costs for ingots of Bismuth but from the pages of a few metal suppliers in the states it could easily be $20 per kg...

The whole idea for me is to cut down costs.

Shot already made up is about $9 per kg, scrap lead is $2-$2.50 kg.

Even taking into account the cost of the materials for building the shottmaker it wouldnt take long to pay for itself. Especially if you can turn out 20-25 kg an hour as I have seen on those boards that discuss this process.

They seem to have overcome the problem with roundness by varying the height the drop falls from before it enters the cooling bath.

Shall we buy the old shottower in Mt Eden? CAC building is still there along with the tower.

[jono035]

The whole idea for me is to cut down costs.

Shot already made up is about $9 per kg, scrap lead is $2-$2.50 kg.

Even taking into account the cost of the materials for building the shottmaker it wouldnt take long to pay for itself. Especially if you can turn out 20-25 kg an hour as I have seen on those boards that discuss this process.

They seem to have overcome the problem with roundness by varying the height the drop falls from before it enters the cooling bath.

Shall we buy the old shottower in Mt Eden? CAC building is still there along with the tower.

Pity you've just bought that new place, you could have moved in somewhere with your own shot tower... My dad mentioned the shot tower when I sent him an e-mail about this asking for suggestions earlier today...

As for the economics, lead is certainly the cheapest and is still the best choice in terms of shooting clays...

There is a guy at Uni that I am helping with an Aluminium casting project who has an arc welder so I can use that to make something up.

[The Pastor]

wonder if there is a market for shot at 2/3rds to half the price of store bought shot? you'd want to tumble it with graphite for it to be of the same quality of store bought shot.


still reloading shot is a bit hard cos the factory ammo is so damn cheap

[Mr Merde]

Pity you've just bought that new place, you could have moved in somewhere with your own shot tower... My dad mentioned the shot tower when I sent him an e-mail about this asking for suggestions earlier today...

There is a guy at Uni that I am helping with an Aluminium casting project who has an arc welder so I can use that to make something up.

You cant miss the tower.

About 50-60 ft high or more, opposite that pub near the prison.

[Mr Merde]

wonder if there is a market for shot at 2/3rds to half the price of store bought shot? you'd want to tumble it with graphite for it to be of the same quality of store bought shot.


still reloading shot is a bit hard cos the factory ammo is so damn cheap

Not compared to a yeaR AGO WHEN IT WAS ABOUT $7 A BOX

[jono035]

wonder if there is a market for shot at 2/3rds to half the price of store bought shot? you'd want to tumble it with graphite for it to be of the same quality of store bought shot.


still reloading shot is a bit hard cos the factory ammo is so damn cheap

The graphite is easy enough, just pour into a bag and shake.

What are primers worth? I noticed wads on trademe for 4c each and a 12g load of AS30 for 1oz of shot appears to be about 20 grains (14c each). At $2.50 per kg the shot is 8c each...

If primers cost the same as rifle/pistol then it works out at 35c per reload... What were those factory shells worth?

Edit: Oh, the water tower looking thing! Yeah, I drove past that thing twice a day for 3 years without having a clue what the hell it was...
Edit2: $110 for 1k primers so 11c each instead of the 9c I used, 37c per reload...

[The Pastor]

The graphite is easy enough, just pour into a bag and shake.

What are primers worth? I noticed wads on trademe for 4c each and a 12g load of AS30 for 1oz of shot appears to be about 20 grains (14c each). At $2.50 per kg the shot is 8c each...

If primers cost the same as rifle/pistol then it works out at 35c per reload... What were those factory shells worth?

Edit: Oh, the water tower looking thing! Yeah, I drove past that thing twice a day for 3 years without having a clue what the hell it was...
Edit2: $110 for 1k primers so 11c each instead of the 9c I used, 37c per reload...
factory is about 40-48c a round

[Mr Merde]

The graphite is easy enough, just pour into a bag and shake.

What are primers worth? I noticed wads on trademe for 4c each and a 12g load of AS30 for 1oz of shot appears to be about 20 grains (14c each). At $2.50 per kg the shot is 8c each...

If primers cost the same as rifle/pistol then it works out at 35c per reload... What were those factory shells worth?

Edit: Oh, the water tower looking thing! Yeah, I drove past that thing twice a day for 3 years without having a clue what the hell it was...
Edit2: $110 for 1k primers so 11c each instead of the 9c I used, 37c per reload...

Factory is about $10+ for 25 shells

But then you once again start the ecconomy of scale. The more you load the more the whole thing pays for itself. You source lead at the cheapest price you can. You get primers and wads from the cheap sources also.

I happen to like reloading anything so I'm probably biased.

[jono035]

factory is about 40-48c a round

Yeah, that's pretty bloody cheap and there are no big costs in there either, just lots of little ones. That's wads by the 500, primers by 1k, powder by the 2kg jug and lead by the 20kg ingot...

Yikes.

[The Pastor]

If i were to reload shottie ammo it'd be to make some resin filled with #7 shot solids....

[jono035]

Factory is about $10+ for 25 shells

But then you once again start the ecconomy of scale. The more you load the more the whole thing pays for itself. You source lead at the cheapest price you can. You get primers and wads from the cheap sources also.

I happen to like reloading anything so I'm probably biased.

I'm sure the economies of scale also apply to ammunition purchases though :D

The problem is that the lead is a relatively minor component of the total price once you start casting so getting cheaper lead doesn't help much.

Halving the price of the lead (and assuming you don't add any tin) would leave you with an extra saving of 4c per round...

There is always the option of spending that same time casting bullets for someone and swapping those bullets for a few boxes of shells...

[jono035]

Finished off the last of my batch of .44 magnum hand loads and the cases are in the tumbler... Group at 25m was about 150mm centered about 100mm to 3 o'clock.

Cast iron dutch oven is on its way. Have talked to a guy about a supply of wheel weights and have a $1.50/kg price to start from, wonder if I could find a tire store owner who is willing to barter for shot or projectiles though...

Have also been looking into fluxing requirements for shot making... Apparently tin is bad (something about 'tails') when making shot so there are a couple of people talking about methods for fluxing it out which seems odd. Perhaps it would be possible to reduce the fluxed-out tin back to tin metal and re-add it to a bullet casting alloy...

[Mr Merde]

Pulled that dickhead's chain, on the FishnHunt forum. Have discovered he is also a member of kb also. Wo nder if he reads this thread?



Reason he was so against the NSA and fighting the change proposed by the police was because he owned an SL8 and had rushed out to have it reclassified. He spent the money on an E catr safe and then we challenged the police as to the validity of their proposal.

He was looking out for his own interests. To hell with anyone else that may me affected as long as he was ok.

That sort of person we can do with out.

His posts have turned into ranting and other persons on that board have stepped up with reasonable discussion. Except for one other who seems to be of the same ilk. Spanners.

[The Pastor]

Howd you get on with the camera jono?

[jono035]

Howd you get on with the camera jono?

Easy fix... Gave it a little dab of superglue left it overnight. Thought I was going to have to split the back case off if the shaft superglued itself to the housing but it broke free easily. If it breaks again it'll probably need pinning though.

[ManDownUnder]

Shall we buy the old shottower in Mt Eden? CAC building is still there along with the tower.

I wondered a while back about the possibility of down down instead of up...

...humour me...


Bore a 12" hole into the dirt... straight down... to whatever depth. Concrete line it or steel pipe lining... whatever works
Put a deflector plate at the bottom such that shot would not just settle at the bottom but roll out to a given spot alongside it into a waiting collander
Fill the well with water, put the collander down ready to go, pour molten lead into the shotmaker at the top.
There must be wells around the place that would lend themselves to it - or a cliff face perhaps? The pipe would block any wind ensuring shot fell vertically and wasn't malformed on the way down.

... surely...? Or did I just over simplify things?

[Mr Merde]

I wondered a while back about the possibility of down down instead of up...

...humour me...


Bore a 12" hole into the dirt... straight down... to whatever depth. Concrete line it or steel pipe lining... whatever works
Put a deflector plate at the bottom such that shot would not just settle at the bottom but roll out to a given spot alongside it into a waiting collander
Fill the well with water, put the collander down ready to go, pour molten lead into the shotmaker at the top.
There must be wells around the place that would lend themselves to it - or a cliff face perhaps? The pipe would block any wind ensuring shot fell vertically and wasn't malformed on the way down.

... surely...? Or did I just over simplify things?

Not a bad idea.

MDU, havent heard from you in a while.
Sharron and I are selling up and moving back into town.
Before we go we are going to have as many shoots as possible.
I'll let you know as I would love for you to be able to make one.

Had some of the others over lasrt weekend. Boy did we burn some powder. I want mining rights to that cliff now

[Drunken Monkey]

Boy did we burn some powder. I want mining rights to that cliff now

Be careful, the Ngati-Parnell Iwi will want their cut first...

[jono035]

I wondered a while back about the possibility of down down instead of up...

...humour me...


Bore a 12" hole into the dirt... straight down... to whatever depth. Concrete line it or steel pipe lining... whatever works
Put a deflector plate at the bottom such that shot would not just settle at the bottom but roll out to a given spot alongside it into a waiting collander
Fill the well with water, put the collander down ready to go, pour molten lead into the shotmaker at the top.
There must be wells around the place that would lend themselves to it - or a cliff face perhaps? The pipe would block any wind ensuring shot fell vertically and wasn't malformed on the way down.

... surely...? Or did I just over simplify things?

Yeah, I thought along a very similar line... The situation appears to be either you air cool it the entire way or drop it into water ASAP. You want it to only hit the water as an entire solid or as an entire liquid otherwise apparently it either flattens badly or even puffs up into wire-wool looking stuff. 154 feet is the height for an air-drop tower that has solid shot coming out the bottom so you would have to drill down that far really.

[Wolf]

Definitely up for another shoot, a Saturday for preference as I wouldn't have to turn into a pumpkin early enough to get home for kids. Last Saturday was great knowing I could spend as much time as I liked.

Would be good to catch up with the ones I recently met again and also finally meet MDU and jrandom. If shiny side up could make it along with some of his toys as well it would be great - he seriously needs to meet these guys, too.

I'm free this Saturday as well if there's any shooting going down.

[jono035]

Had some of the others over lasrt weekend. Boy did we burn some powder. I want mining rights to that cliff now

I just quickly worked it out, about 4kg of lead on my part...

[Mr Merde]

..
I'm free this Saturday as well if there's any shooting going down.

This Saturday comming I am working unfortunately.
Essential server maintenance.
My main data server has about 300 gb of space of which there is only 11 gb free.

I'm going to swap out the disks for 3 new ones thereby doubling the size. I should have about 300 gb free at the finish.

[jono035]

This Saturday comming I am working unfortunately.
Essential server maintenance.
My main data server has about 300 gb of space of which there is only 11 gb free.

I'm going to swap out the disks for 3 new ones thereby doubling the size. I should have about 300 gb free at the finish.

So that'll be a pair of 300GB SAS disks then? It's always nice working with proper hard drives, 7200RPM SATA disks get way too much credit :p

[Mr Merde]

So that'll be a pair of 300GB SAS disks then? It's always nice working with proper hard drives, 7200RPM SATA disks get way too much credit :p

SCSI 320 15,000 rpm disks x 3

[ManDownUnder]

Before we go we are going to have as many shoots as possible.
I'll let you know as I would love for you to be able to make one.


PM sent - would love to be there if I can - may need some notice of it but... why not?

[jono035]

SCSI 320 15,000 rpm disks x 3

Ahhh, haven't worked with parallel SCSI in ages, nice.

[Indiana_Jones]

the g33k talk!

AHHHHHHHHHH!

-Indy

[Wolf]

Something about geeks and firearms and motorcycles - the former has a definite affinity for the latter two. And historical enactment in some form.

Interesting how a large number of geeks - for all their obsession with modern high-tech toys - like to potter around with medieval arts or blackpowder firearms.

And we're not as shy of outdoorsy pursuits as our detractors would like to paint us, either. The geek who does not know what the world outside the server room looks like is a joke stereotype. We make jokes about "raster tans" and trepidation about visiting the "big room with the blue ceiling", but when it comes time to unplug, we tend to be the first to grab boots and gear and head off to ride, tramp, camp, shoot etc.

We're the most active people on the planet - by the time we've fitted in tech stuff, reading, shooting, riding, RenFaires, camping and our other hobbies into the year...

Face it: g33|<5 FTW LOLZ

[jono035]

Something about geeks and firearms and motorcycles - the former has a definite affinity for the latter two. And historical enactment in some form.

Interesting how a large number of geeks - for all their obsession with modern high-tech toys - like to potter around with medieval arts or blackpowder firearms.

And we're not as shy of outdoorsy pursuits as our detractors would like to paint us, either. The geek who does not know what the world outside the server room looks like is a joke stereotype. We make jokes about "raster tans" and trepidation about visiting the "big room with the blue ceiling", but when it comes time to unplug, we tend to be the first to grab boots and gear and head off to ride, tramp, camp, shoot etc.

We're the most active people on the planet - by the time we've fitted in tech stuff, reading, shooting, riding, RenFaires, camping and our other hobbies into the year...

Face it: g33|<5 FTW LOLZ

I wouldn't say that the stereotype is invalid, rather that it only applies to a certain proportion. I've known plenty of different guys within IT/engineering fields that fit the pasty agoraphobe stereotype quite nicely but there are also quite a few who enjoy getting outdoors and doing all of those things.

Among the geeks that I know, they do tend to take their hobbies quite seriously and either have a vast variety of them or really put in a lot of time and gather a lot of knowledge about them.

I used to have a vast array of hobbies but since Chris' little demo that spurred me into finally getting started with reloading I haven't really done anything else...

[Wolf]

We must move in different circles - I don't think I've met a pasty agoraphobe yet. All the IT sorts I know are quite outdoorsy and most fit the RenFaire/NAARMA/shooting the shit outta things stereotype.

[jono035]

We must move in different circles - I don't think I've met a pasty agoraphobe yet. All the IT sorts I know are quite outdoorsy and most fit the RenFaire/NAARMA/shooting the shit outta things stereotype.

Heh, consider yourself lucky. I've worked with a couple and there are members of the university IT staff who seem to fit that stereotype perfectly...

[jono035]

Success!!

Picked up 18kg of wheel weights for $20, sorted the obvious ones out in iron zinc and lead piles then melted up about 5kg of weights (mostly stick-on though) and 5kg of my lead ingot.

Scooped the clips and extra crap off the top, fluxed and scraped a few times.

Cast up 50 bullets, it's a surprisingly quick process... That mold works beautifully, Chris, very impressed...

Then suddenly noticed I couldn't see a damn thing any more because it was completely dark so dumped the rest into my muffin tray ingot mold and it all fit perfectly...

Edit: Mould didn't fill out perfectly but I think that is because it is about 50% pure lead from the big ingot, 45% stick on wheel weight (pure lead) and 5% clip on wheel weight...

[The Pastor]

oh nice

[The Pastor]

Shit I think its time to move country. NZ police have common sence!


Mr Broad also revealed a proposal to end firearms training for officers unlikely to require it, but increase it for those most likely to find themselves in dangerous situations.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10614504

[Wolf]

So we'll have snakes again. Shrewd move, restore public opinion of the police as protectors of the population by having a separate group that can be safely despised - just like the good old days. :devil2:

[Indiana_Jones]

Looking good Jono :)

The projectiles look ok too ;)

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

So we'll have snakes again. Shrewd move, restore public opinion of the police as protectors of the population by having a separate group that can be safely despised - just like the good old days. :devil2:

No we dont.

Crusher Collins was on the news saying that it wont happen

[Mr Merde]

Success!!

Picked up 18kg of wheel weights for $20, sorted the obvious ones out in iron zinc and lead piles then melted up about 5kg of weights (mostly stick-on though) and 5kg of my lead ingot.

Scooped the clips and extra crap off the top, fluxed and scraped a few times.

Cast up 50 bullets, it's a surprisingly quick process... That mold works beautifully, Chris, very impressed...

Then suddenly noticed I couldn't see a damn thing any more because it was completely dark so dumped the rest into my muffin tray ingot mold and it all fit perfectly...

Edit: Mould didn't fill out perfectly but I think that is because it is about 50% pure lead from the big ingot, 45% stick on wheel weight (pure lead) and 5% clip on wheel weight...

You are probably casting too hard.

A 1:20, 1:15 tin\lead mix would probably be better.
Pure lead doesnt get you the crisp lines of the mould.

Make sure the mould is up to temperature also.

If you dont you get the ripples that I can see in your bullets.

I usually balance my mould on the side of the melting pot while the lead is melting.

Still looks good for a first attempt.

[jono035]

You are probably casting too hard.

A 1:20, 1:15 tin\lead mix would probably be better.
Pure lead doesnt get you the crisp lines of the mould.

Make sure the mould is up to temperature also.

If you dont you get the ripples that I can see in your bullets.

I usually balance my mould on the side of the melting pot while the lead is melting.

Still looks good for a first attempt.

Yeah, I was pretty happy with it. Given that my wheel weight bucket is almost entirely stick on weights, I think I need some other source of tin.

I'm pretty sure I had the mold up to temperature as all the bullets are completely filled out although I guess casting from hotter lead and with a hotter mold the fine details could be picked up without adding tin...

Got a price back from the Chinese metal supplies for Bismuth, Antimony and Tin...
Bismuth: 15,580 USD/ton
Antimony: 6,130 USD/ton
Tin: 17,185 USD/ton

Minimum order quantity is 300kg... Haven't run the numbers yet to see what that would work out to in order to make bismuth shot but it's interesting nonetheless. 22 day shipping, no lead time.

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, I was pretty happy with it. Given that my wheel weight bucket is almost entirely stick on weights, I think I need some other source of tin.

I'm pretty sure I had the mold up to temperature as all the bullets are completely filled out although I guess casting from hotter lead and with a hotter mold the fine details could be picked up without adding tin...

Got a price back from the Chinese metal supplies for Bismuth, Antimony and Tin...
Bismuth: 15,580 USD/ton
Antimony: 6,130 USD/ton
Tin: 17,185 USD/ton

Minimum order quantity is 300kg... Haven't run the numbers yet to see what that would work out to in order to make bismuth shot but it's interesting nonetheless. 22 day shipping, no lead time.

Look online for the "Blackpowder Express" magazine in NZ

Publisher is Jim Reed.

Black powder rifle shooter but he sells strips of tin (like solder) at $20 a lb.

Have you tried those other two moulds?

Interested to see what size they are

[jono035]

Look online for the "Blackpowder Express" magazine in NZ

Publisher is Jim Reed.

Black powder rifle shooter but he sells strips of tin (like solder) at $20 a lb.

Have you tried those other two moulds?

Interested to see what size they are

Interesting, that would work out pretty reasonable, too... $44 per kg, 2% tin so $3.30 per kg instead of $2.50 for pure lead... Might see if there is a cheap source for plumbers solder floating around as well.

Didn't fire them up, was actually just planning to see if I could get the wheel weights to melt in the crappy thin-walled saucepan I have and then when that proved possible I decided to throw a heap more in then clean them up and cast them into ingots... Then figured what the hell, I'll give the mold a shot and started having a play... just dipped the corners of the mold into the lead to get it up to temperature and they started turning out good.

[Mr Merde]

Interesting, that would work out pretty reasonable, too... $44 per kg, 2% tin so $3.30 per kg instead of $2.50 for pure lead... Might see if there is a cheap source for plumbers solder floating around as well.

Didn't fire them up, was actually just planning to see if I could get the wheel weights to melt in the crappy thin-walled saucepan I have and then when that proved possible I decided to throw a heap more in then clean them up and cast them into ingots... Then figured what the hell, I'll give the mold a shot and started having a play... just dipped the corners of the mold into the lead to get it up to temperature and they started turning out good.

I heat my moulds up by placing them on the rim of the melting pot. Leave them there for about 10-15 min. First 10 or so casts go back into the pot. After that they come out reasonably well.

The 45-70 I have been casting need to have nice crisp edges. The base is particularly important and any faults here will allow the gases to folw past and upset the bullets flight.

One of those gas check makers may be of interest to you.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

I've never really sat down and worked out the cost of casting and reloading. Its something I really enjoy doing so up to a point cost is irrelevant to me.

[jono035]

I've never really sat down and worked out the cost of casting and reloading. Its something I really enjoy doing so up to a point cost is irrelevant to me.

Certainly, but I'm a numbers kind of guy really. I like having a big spreadsheet with all the costs worked out and being able to say that doing this saves me X per round and the cost per round with these is Y etc.

The next thing is figuring out how to make my lead alloy nice and repeatable without having the bother with BHN testing!

[jono035]

Just sorted the rest of my lead and I'm pretty shocked by how few clip on wheel weights there are. So far I've probably gotten a kilo or, at the most, 2 from my 18kg of weights with about 3 kilos of iron weights, half a kilo of zinc and the vast majority being stick on weights. This means that I'm dealing with another source of pretty much pure lead.

From reading up on the metallurgy a binary tin/lead alloy does not harden through heat treatment (such as quenching by water-dropping) and doesn't get much harder than pure lead until you're well up in tin content...

The advice for most people who are dealing with large sources of high purity lead has been to find a source of clip on wheel weights and then mix them 50/50 then top up with 1-2% tin... Given that a supply of clip on wheel weights is an unknown factor I started looking around for foundry metal suppliers and have a couple that I am going to contact tomorrow.

There is also a good looking company in the states (www.rotometals.com) that advertises on the bullet casting boards and just answered an e-mail (at 2am on sunday morning, their time!) saying they ship 19lb boxes for USD$44. This would put their 30% antimony, 70% lead alloy at $16.50 per kilo and would need to be added to the lead at a 10:1 ration, working out to $3.90 per kg when mixed with scrapyard lead.

Pure tin would cost $37.40 per kg from them so a chunk of Lyman #2 alloy (90% lead, 5% antimony, 5% tin) would cost $6.50/kg. Each kg would be made from 78.5% scrapyard lead, 5% pure tin and 16.5% high-antimony lead.

Interesting exercise, the tin price at least seems to mirror what you mentioned the guy down south selling it for, Chris.

Any ideas? From looking around I think I could get away with less tin and antimony content but would need to experiment to see how they went.

[Maha]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?

[Indiana_Jones]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?

Shits and gigs?

-Indy

[The Pastor]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?
robbing banks.

[Wolf]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?
Luser Attitude Readjustment?? :devil2:


LART party!! :headbang:

[jono035]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?

Kinda depends on what you mean by sawn off... With a pump shotty you can only cut to the end of the mag and slide rail so it would still be within legal length. If you're bush bashing for pigs or deer at close range using slug rounds then one would probably be brilliant. Rabbits could be ok too at close range but with no more choke you're going to have a hell of a spread.

If you mean something with the stock replaced or sawn down as well so that the gun is pretty much hand grip and short barrel then yeah, robbing banks.

[Mr Merde]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?

Sawn off pump action.

I cant think of any practical use for such a firearm.

All I can think of would be to either boost the ego of the owner by having something perceived to be nasty looking or as the others have suggested, some illegal practice.

Thats not to say that all sawn off shotguns are bad. I have a side by side short barreled shotgun that I use in Cowboy Action Shooting. Its also pretty good at busting clays.

[ManDownUnder]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?

2 reasons I can think of
1) Concealment
2) Achieve a much more rapid spread of shot which would indicate an intention for shooting things at a very short distance

Possession would also suggest a high degree of premeditation because you can't just buy them anywhere therefore
1) The owner went to some lengths to source one
2) The owner cut down a shotgun to a shorter length for some reason - again, taking some efforts to do so and if reduced to less than 762mm in length they were intentionally rendering the firearm illegal

Take from that what you will - but to me it all suggests sneak up on someone and threaten them or shoot them.

I can think of no legal use for such a weapon, and if you know of one I would quietly tell the cops. "Kev and Trev" - the firearms officers at Auckland Central would be good start if you don't have any other option. 09) 302 6400

It's not going to be used on non human targets, they stay too far away so the longer barrel is desirable for accuracy, and I would be very surprised if they responded any differently to a short or long barrelled arm.

[ManDownUnder]

I've dealt with the guy before and he's a bit slow to respond... and he never shipped anything out of the US for me so I don't know if it's achievable.

I have enough "life trivia" on my plate right now to do anything more but here's a link if anyone can be bothered trying. The prices seem pretty good.

http://www.bluestarbrass.com/catalog/decsale.htm

PM me if you get an order together. I'll happily share costs etc - just don't have the time to put something together

MDU Over and under

[jono035]

If the barrel length is legal then fair enough. There have been enough instances of people getting threatened with full length shotguns/hunting rifles that I would have thought people would take a slightly less alarmist view. If it's legal, leave the guy alone.

Assuming a legal barrel length, cutting down the barrel of a shotgun doesn't affect accuracy, it's the removal of the choke that does. Shorter barrel means less shot velocity which lowers your range further but this is a different consideration to accuracy.

There is not enough info in that question to make the judgements that have been made here. The situation could range between a professionally shortened barrel that has been re-bored for a choke and had the sights replaced to something that has been roughly hacksawed off at the end of the mag tube in a rough-as-guts way and hasn't had the sight replaced.

I'm disappointed at the reaction to be honest. We are a group of people most prone to being judged irrationally for our ownership of firearms. Perhaps we should not be jumping to conclusions, ourselves.

Edit: I've seen guys hunting in the bush up north with slug-loads in shotguns, I'm sticking to my theory that it could make a good pig gun. If it is a fixed choke shotgun then maybe shortening it slightly is the cheapest and easiest way to turn it into a cylinder bore shotgun for slug use.

[Mr Merde]

sAsLex From the site MDU just posted

100 500 1000

<TABLE style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" borderColor=#000000 cellSpacing=4 cols=12 cellPadding=4 rules=none width="90%" bgColor=#ffff00 border=4 frame=void><TBODY style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><TR style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle height=25>38-40 Winchester</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle SDVAL="0.401" SDNUM="1033;0;0.000">0.401</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle>Fired</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle>99 % Rem.</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle>Brass</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle SDVAL="15" SDNUM="1033;">15</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle SDVAL="21.9285333333333" SDNUM='1033;0;"$"#,##0.00'>$21.93</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle SDVAL="86.6565" SDNUM='1033;0;"$"#,##0.00'>$86.66</TD><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #000000 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: x-small; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #000000 1px solid; FONT-FAMILY: Arial" align=middle SDVAL="167.418" SDNUM='1033;0;"$"#,##0.00'>$167.42</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

From www.buffaloarms.com (http://www.buffaloarms.com)

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><FORM action=http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1544.html? method=post><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>.401" 175 Grn. FN Lyman 2-Cav. Mould #401043
Bullet Moulds (http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,43.html) / Lyman Bullet Moulds (http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,47.html) / .36-.41 Caliber (http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,49.html)


</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle>

</TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">
Item #: LYM2660043

[/URL]

<TABLE class=itemPriceTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR class=itemSellPriceRow><TD class=bodyTextBold>Your Price: </TD><TD class=bodyText>$59.19 / Each</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=bodyTextSmall>We usually ship all in stock items the same day when ordered by 1:30 P.M. Pacific Time. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Lyman Double Cavity Cast Bullet Mould produces Lyman Pistol bullet #401043, .401" nominal diameter, 175 grain, Flat Nose bullet. The original bullet for the 38-40 cartridge. Lyman Top Punch #43, Item#LYM2786691. Approximate Bullet Dimensions: Bullet Length-.609", Bottom of Crimp Groove to Bullet Nose-.351", Meplat-.230".

</TD></TR></TBODY></FORM></TABLE>


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><FORM action=http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,2337.html? method=post><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>38-40 Winchester RCBS Cowboy 3-Die Set
[URL="http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,170.html"]Reloading Dies (http://www.buffaloarms.com/tellafriend.htm?itemid=1544&returnurl=http%253A%252F%252Fwww%252Ebuffaloarms%2 52Ecom%252Fbrowse%252Ecfm%252F4%252C1544%252Ehtml) / 38 Caliber (http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/2,451.html)

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=middle></TD><TD vAlign=top width="100%">

<TABLE class=itemPriceTable cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR class=itemSellPriceRow><TD class=bodyTextBold>Your Price: </TD><TD class=bodyText>$54.49 / Each</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>This is an RCBS Cowboy 3 Die Set for the 38-40 Winchester caliber. RCBS Cowbooy Dies are built to slightly different dimesnsions than their regular dies to allow optimum sizing expanding, seating and crimping needed to load great lead bullet ammo for Cowboy Action shooters of lever-action and single-action revolvers. Uses shell holders RCBS #35 or Lyman #7.

</TD></TR></TBODY></FORM></TABLE>



If you buy this lot and the powder, primers etc I'll castr and reload for you so that you can feed that lovely lever action of yours

[Maha]

Sawn off pump action.

I cant think of any practical use for such a firearm.

All I can think of would be to either boost the ego of the owner by having something perceived to be nasty looking or as the others have suggested, some illegal practice.

Thats not to say that all sawn off shotguns are bad. I have a side by side short barreled shotgun that I use in Cowboy Action Shooting. Its also pretty good at busting clays.


2 reasons I can think of
1) Concealment
2) Achieve a much more rapid spread of shot which would indicate an intention for shooting things at a very short distance

Possession would also suggest a high degree of premeditation because you can't just buy them anywhere therefore
1) The owner went to some lengths to source one
2) The owner cut down a shotgun to a shorter length for some reason - again, taking some efforts to do so and if reduced to less than 762mm in length they were intentionally rendering the firearm illegal

Take from that what you will - but to me it all suggests sneak up on someone and threaten them or shoot them.

I can think of no legal use for such a weapon, and if you know of one I would quietly tell the cops. "Kev and Trev" - the firearms officers at Auckland Central would be good start if you don't have any other option. 09) 302 6400

It's not going to be used on non human targets, they stay too far away so the longer barrel is desirable for accuracy, and I would be very surprised if they responded any differently to a short or long barrelled arm.

Thank you guys, I though as much, just needed the input from someone who knows about such things.

So I guess having one loaded inside your house with the safety off and someone else in the house, would be considered the worst case senario with one of this weapons?
All hypothetical naturally.

[jono035]

Thank you guys, I though as much, just needed the input from someone who knows about such things.

So I guess having one loaded inside your house with the safety off and someone else in the house, would be considered the worst case senario with one of this weapons?
All hypothetical naturally.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'having someone else in the house' and 'worst case scenario'

Having a firearm in that state in your house is illegal to begin with so if you're talking about how it would be perceived in court then you're on shaky ground to start with. It also would raise some pretty serious questions about what was causing the owner to be that paranoid.

Edit: In this case it's still the 'loaded firearm by the door' that is the primary concern but the fact that it was a sawn-off pump action shotgun would probably prejudice a judge or jury against the owner much more than a more 'standard' hunting rifle/shotgun would.

[Maha]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'having someone else in the house' and 'worst case scenario'

Having a firearm in that state in your house is illegal to begin with so if you're talking about how it would be perceived in court then you're on shaky ground to start with. It also would raise some pretty serious questions about what was causing the owner to be that paranoid.

Someone else in the house?....two or more people.
Worst case senario?.... could a senario get any worse with a weapon like that?

You have answered my question though jono.

[jono035]

Someone else in the house?....two or more people.
Worst case senario?.... could a senario get any worse with a weapon like that?

You have answered my question though jono.

No worries. Was just a little confused as to what the question was.

[The Pastor]

hes refering to his neighbour that got shot recently. Real sad story. :(

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=114192

[Mr Merde]

On a different vein.

I've been busy this week.

Bought the following;

Universal decapping die,
Universal case flaring die,
Lee Ram Prime unit,
Universal powder through die,

and just ordered a gas check making set for the M1 round.

Picking up the Dillon press next week, along with more moulds reloading equipment etc.

Will pick up the extra shotgun reloader some time early next year.

Stocking up of reloading equipment before we move to the new house next year. Got the plans for a dedicated reloading bench (NMRA), will get the wood once we have moved and build a reloading area in the garage.

Once I've upgraded all my equipment I will concdentrate on building up a good supply of loaded cartridges for when I go to the range. I can shoot all day then and not worry.

[jono035]

Yeah, that paints the issue in a bit of a different light. That's a tragic story but it sounds like the guy was well short of 'fit and proper'.

Made up 30 full rounds for the .44 with some of the bullets that I cast yesterday and tumble lubed this morning. They were slightly undersize (calipers had them at .427/.428. They didn't seem to have quite the accuracy of the commercial rounds which so far I'm guessing is either due to the size or my inability to shoot straight.

I figure they are undersize due to alloy issues so a bit of playing around should get them to the correct size.

Ended up running today's session at the range due to the normal Range Officer disappearing for christmas. It didn't exactly go smoothly but I did get to help someone figure out how to use their brand-new 10/22 though. Saw another guy who had reloaded a round without powder and the primer had only just pushed the bullet out of the casing. The only reason he caught the fact that there was bullet lodged in the barrel was that the next round wouldn't chamber fully. Could have easily turned out a lot worse...

Edit: Chris - let me know when you get that gas check maker, I'd be pretty keen to have a look. Sounds like you're getting quite the setup.

[sAsLEX]

What would be the primary reason for owning a Sawn off pump action Shotgun?

For fucking with pirates!

Seriously!


We use very short shot guns with fold up stocks due to the close quarters that ships throw in your face, I only get a little wee pistol :(

Sawn off pump action.

I cant think of any practical use for such a firearm.


Heard of the term "Lupo" used to refer to some shotguns shortened by the mob ?








Chris: Just back from a Navy mid week get together.... lucky I can type let alone see! Will have a look at the info on the morrow.

[Drunken Monkey]

For fucking with pirates!

Seriously!

We use very short shot guns with fold up stocks due to the close quarters that ships throw in your face, I only get a little wee pistol :(


Indeed, I expect for practical purposes it comes down to either concealment (hide under your coat) or in less sinister circumstances because of a lack of room. Sawn offs were commonly carried by coach drivers.

[Mr Merde]

.. Sawn offs were commonly carried by coach drivers.

Hence my sawn off in the makers catalogue listed as a Coach Gun.

Fast to point. Shorter barrels dont get snagged on anything, wide spread of shot (unless like mine they are choked)

[Wolf]

in less sinister circumstances because of a lack of room.
Like within the confines of an office or computer lab when the fucking computer crashes and wipes out your work...

[jono035]

Or stomping through some northland bush. Shorter and lighter (providing it can still do the job as required) is a hell of a lot better in that case.

[Indiana_Jones]

I have a sawn-off and I pump it all the time....

-Indy

['99' Cafe' Racer]

Hmmm - there is no 'legal' minimum length for a shotty barrel - as long as the over-all length of the firearm is 762mm and/or it has not been "adapted to be held and fired with one hand" it is a shotty that complies with the Arms Act as an 'ordinary' firearm.

As to the shorter barrel reducing velocity - shotgun powders are generally fast burning and 10 to 12 inches of barrel will achieve 95% of the shot velocity that a longer barrel makes.

As to 'accuracy' and 'spread' the shot leaves 'seeing' only the last bit of any barrel - thus barrel length is of no importance other than as a sighting plane with longer allowing better aiming (yep shotty's need to be aimied!).
A 10" cylinder bore will have almost identical shot pattern to a 20" or even 30" barrel. Choke has the same effect regardless of barrel length - Shorter barrels do not 'spread' more!

As to use - typically the 10" and 12" barrel pumps are used for Door Entry - to blow the hinges off doors and for greater indoor or bush manoverability.

'Whipits' were typically seen as Bank Robber guns. Double barrel shotguns shotened both at the barrel end (sometimes as short as 6"!) and the stock 'Pistol Gripped' - an entirely different kettle of fish to a shortened pump over 762mm long. Called 'Whipits' because they were easy to conceal and the criminal owner could "whip it" out - and blast 'em!)

There a bit of Cray Brothers' history!

Shortened pumps with 12" barrels are commercially available - on 'ordinary' Firearms Licences down here - legally!

Why would anyone want one? Hell! Why would anyone want a short barrelled Tupara with hammers - and play cowboys!:oi-grr:

[Mr Merde]

I have a sawn-off and I pump it all the time....

-Indy


Thats what you get when you are supplied with a small boire

[jono035]

Hmmm - there is no 'legal' minimum length for a shotty barrel - as long as the over-all length of the firearm is 762mm and/or it has not been "adapted to be held and fired with one hand" it is a shotty that complies with the Arms Act as an 'ordinary' firearm.

...

Why would anyone want one? Hell! Why would anyone want a short barrelled Tupara with hammers - and play cowboys!:oi-grr:

Yeah, good info there to be sure. I had forgotten that the 762mm was an overall length requirement, not barrel length.

I was reading a guys tests in terms of velocity variation with barrel length and the difference between a 12" barrel and 28" barrel was almost exactly 10%. The patterns were identical with the 12" and the 28" with a cylinder bore.

The only thing the length gets you is balance and sight radius. If it came down to it I would rather just mount a red-dot sight and enjoy the weight and frustration savings. That would be hilarious for clays, too. Could be a funny idea.

[Indiana_Jones]

Thats what you get when you are supplied with a small boire

Not the size of the bore, mate, But rather how wide your 'shot' is lol

-Indy

[jono035]

Serious Shooters has the Frankford Arsenal brass tumbler kits on special for $180 (I bought mine for $250) in the Bullshooter (Pistol NZ magazine). You just have to go in and say you saw it on special in the bullshooter.

They come with the tumbler, a bucket and separator (hamster ball looking thing) as well as a pack of the tumbling media and some brass polish. Good kit, very happy with mine, I've cleaned up about 2k cases with mine and the media still looks new.

RM/Indy: Dunno if you've bought one of these things yet but they're damn useful to have. Cleaning your brass before sizing is a good way to avoid getting crap in your dies and wearing them out or damaging your brass.

Another option is that I could throw em through mine if you've got a batch that needs cleaning.

Just a random thought.

[The Pastor]

i would love a tumbler and one of those expensive case trimmers

but my bike has actually bankrupted me

[jono035]

i would love a tumbler and one of those expensive case trimmers

but my bike has actually bankrupted me

Lol, yeah fair enough. You've been using a Lee case trimmer up until now, right? They work plenty well enough for my needs really, especially when combined with a battery drill!

[Wolf]

Just been handed a reloader set up for shot - has 2 hoppers, 1 for shot, 1 for powder, has the crimping tools for shot shells, the base has 5 positions - remove primer, insert primer, add powder/shot, partial crimp and full crimp (according to the bloke who owned it). Will have to get Chris to look it over and assess it for serviceability and fair value - I've been asked to "make an offer".

It's been used for BP exclusively - the previous owner was in the fast-draw club and used it to load shells BP - usually blanks for their shows.

Looking forward to learning how to use it so I can keep my old hammergun supplied with BP loads.

Time to get some empty cases, primers, wads, BP and No 7 shot, methinks.

I'll buy some cases that look nothing like what I fire in the modern shottie and load them (and only them) with BP - something like those unmarked gold-coloured shells Chris let me try out, I think - so I don't get any accidental mix-ups with what I'm putting in the gun.

[jono035]

I'll buy some cases that look nothing like what I fire in the modern shottie and load them (and only them) with BP - something like those unmarked gold-coloured shells Chris let me try out, I think - so I don't get any accidental mix-ups with what I'm putting in the gun.

Get some brass 12 gauge shells, they're pretty sexy.

[Wolf]

Get some brass 12 gauge shells, they're pretty sexy.
Oh, I want some - they'd be ideal considering the age of the cannon. Then I'll have the fun of trying to glue the cardboard in...

I suppose I'd also have to resize and trim the brass shells.

[Mr Merde]

Oh, I want some - they'd be ideal considering the age of the cannon. Then I'll have the fun of trying to glue the cardboard in...

I suppose I'd also have to resize and trim the brass shells.

I definitely want another 100 of these shells.

Just use PVA glue for the cardboard overdisk.

Shouldnt have to resize them or trim them too oftem.

Check what size your chamber is. These cases are 2 3/4" where a lot of old hammer guns were 2 1/2"

[Mr Merde]

Picked up one of these little items.

Gas checks at something like $100 per 1000 are just a little too expensive for me to keep buying. They add 10 cents to each round of ammo produced.

I've been watching a little tool called the Freechex II on trade me and I decided to buy one.

Trader posted it before I had even paid for it. Trusting man.

Arrived the next day.

What a brilliant tool. Came with a small strip of metal to practice with and 10 pre made gas checks.,

I looked at the tool and figured out how it works. 15 min later I hade used up all the metal strip and had anothe 30 gas checks. Simple and functional, just how a tool should be.

I need to buy a nylon hammer and a lot more metal strip. Copper, brass or aluminium all work the same.

JONO, get one. Well worth it. It now means that I can push my little M1 rounds past the 1600-1700 fps barrier imposed by straight lead bullets. 2000 fps maybe.

The model I got was for .30 calibre. Wont do .303 but ok for all other .30 calibre rounds.

A highly recommended tool for all those who cast for modern bullets and powders.

Chris

[jono035]

The model I got was for .30 calibre. Wont do .303 but ok for all other .30 calibre rounds.

Hmmmm, interesting... I wonder how tight the tolerances are, what would stop you being able to use the gascheck for a .303? Just the base diameter?

Definitely think one of those is a good idea but I'll try get by without one for a while and see what happens. For the .44 it'd be good but at the rate I've been going through 9mm ammo I'm trying to keep that reloading process as simple as possible.

I've been looking at the prices of some of the casting gear at midway and the prices are easily half what they are here. Thinking about trying to get some boxed up and sent over. I'm sure the lead furnaces shouldn't be an issue but the bullet moulds could be. Anyone have any ideas?

[DarkLord]

I went possum shooting last night for the first time with some of the lads. My mate I went with owns a .22 and the thing is lighter (and quieter) than a slug gun. I couldn't believe it as the last .22 I fired weighed about 6 times more than the one I used last night.

We shot and killed 4 possums and left 3 wounded that escaped into the bushes. One was right up the top of a tree and we honestly shot the blasted thing about 8 times, it just would not die, nor would it even fall to the ground!! Eventually it fell but it was still running around so I stomped it to submission with my steel caps and we then executed it with a bullet through the back of the head.

Was awesome fun. I can't wait to go again!!

[jono035]

I went possum shooting last night for the first time with some of the lads. My mate I went with owns a .22 and the thing is lighter (and quieter) than a slug gun. I couldn't believe it as the last .22 I fired weighed about 6 times more than the one I used last night.

We shot and killed 4 possums and left 3 wounded that escaped into the bushes. One was right up the top of a tree and we honestly shot the blasted thing about 8 times, it just would not die, nor would it even fall to the ground!! Eventually it fell but it was still running around so I stomped it to submission with my steel caps and we then executed it with a bullet through the back of the head.

Was awesome fun. I can't wait to go again!!

Yeah, some of the synthetic stocked .22s are damn light. If you're taking 8 shots to kill them then you're hitting it in the gut. You should really be trying for head/upper body shots otherwise they're prodigiously tough, learnt that one from killing them with air rifles. Generally it's 1-2 shots per possum, any more and I get frustrated. It's also not a good idea to shoot them when they're on the ground, .22 bullets are so short and fat that they will actually bounce off stones. I used to do that until I had a few go back past me and now just give them one good, solid stomp to the head, crushing the skull (quite humane according to my sister, a vet ...).

Was it with open sights or a scope?

[DarkLord]

It was with a scope. I tried to hit them in the head but my aim is not brilliant as of yet... lol.

They're tough bloody things though, my flatmate shot one right through the neck and it flopped out of the tree like it was dead, then it still got up and ran off!

[jono035]

It was with a scope. I tried to hit them in the head but my aim is not brilliant as of yet... lol.

They're tough bloody things though, my flatmate shot one right through the neck and it flopped out of the tree like it was dead, then it still got up and ran off!

Yeah, it's a bastard when that happens. We've got an old Rottweiler and a geriatric Fox Terrier that we take hunting. The foxy gets the first one that falls then tries to carry it home while the Rottweiler clears up any others that hit the ground. Even then I've had a few charge off back up the tree again.

Don't know if this is your issue or not but just an observation from talking to a few other people. If you're using an adjustable power scope, try using it on the lowest power you possibly can. Higher power scopes are more prone to parallax issues (point of aim changes depending on where your head is) so you might be hitting dead on when firing at a target straight in front of you, but shooting up at a 30 degree angle you might be quite a ways off.

Failing that, a decent laser sight (not a cheap chinese one, they don't hold zero... I have about 4 in the garage now) and you'll be getting them in the head every single shot.

[Swoop]

Ooh ya!
South Island rocks!!!

[Mr Merde]

Today we had our first meeting with the council. Pre submission.

We presented all the information we have gathered and put together over the past 8 months.

They were very impressed with the quality and the quantity of the information we have gathered.

They asked us to do a few more things before we make the submission.

They want more information on expected traffic volumes over a week and over a competition shoot.

Thye want us to talk to Papakura Council as the proposed area is only a few hundred metres from their border. As I work for that council I have already spoken to the planners and they see no problems.

We also need to talk to the Franklin Council noise officer (on holiday at the moment) as they accepted the sound of one rifle but wondered what would happen when there are a lot of people shooting at the same time.

We also have to talk to the local Iwi as it seems thatr there are some old kumara pits on the 87 hectares and they need to be involved (wonder how much that is going to cost us)

Any way the good news is that we probably will be going unnotified and only have to pay $1000 rather than the $10,000 if it were notifiable.

Once the submission is made it will only take 1 month and then we will start work. Everything is just waiting for the word. All safety gear is ready, all range dividers are ready, all props are ready.

We are in negotiation for a grant for all our costs and once the consent is given we will be all go.

Chris

[JDK]

just seat ya card then with a sheet of bee's wax place over the mouth of the case and forse in to the case makeing a beeswax disc there ya have it a sealed brass case ..

and i grovel at jono's feet been flat out was away doing foresty work for a while and now playing catch up at home got about 3000 lambs to head off in the new year so kind of a mad house

JDK

[Indiana_Jones]

Sounding good Chris, thanks for the update mate :)

-Indy

[The Pastor]

nice unnotified makes everything EZ, the iwi should be sweet if you're nice to them.

[jono035]

just seat ya card then with a sheet of bee's wax place over the mouth of the case and forse in to the case makeing a beeswax disc there ya have it a sealed brass case ..

and i grovel at jono's feet been flat out was away doing foresty work for a while and now playing catch up at home got about 3000 lambs to head off in the new year so kind of a mad house

JDK

No worries mate, I've got a shell off Chris, anyway. Had entirely forgotten about the plans due to getting set up for casting.

Talked to a couple of metal suppliers (for interests sake). One of them could supply pewter for the tin but was pretty obnoxious about the whole thing on top of refusing to even tell me what the tin content was in any of their product. The other guys were happy for me to bring in my own lead or to source me scrap lead and then mix it up to make some high tin/antimony lead to mix with pure lead but weren't really interested in doing it unless it was getting up towards 100kg and said that it'd cost me $2.50 a kg just for the mixing. Apparently you can get antimony into molten lead without going too nutbar on the temperature, you just need to mechanically agitate it (quite vigorously and for quite a long time was the impression that I got).

I was also going to spend a few days trying to find some other tire stores that were more likely to have clip on wheel weights but that got shuffled off to the side by other issues. Might have an ask around up north, I'm pretty sure they're less likely to be getting decent prices due to transportation bs etc. so might take some stuff up so that if I find anything I can bring it back as muffin-ingots.

Either way, it's back to looking like I might be ordering a box of stuff from Rotometals in the US early next year just for the sake of simplicity. Can easily tack stuff onto the order, USD$44 per 19lb box for shipping, just let me know if anyone is interested.

[The Pastor]

And now for something completely differnt.

http://www.pyrocam.com/filez/go/cbr250rm-rhs.JPG

[jono035]

RM: Looking good, how are the re-looming plans coming along?

Chris: Good to hear that the range is in progress. Are there any of the guys from Central Shooters involved in those plans? Was talking to one of the range officers at CSI and he said that they had some plans afoot for a range down that way, I'm assuming they are one and the same?

[Mr Merde]

.......
Chris: Good to hear that the range is in progress. Are there any of the guys from Central Shooters involved in those plans? Was talking to one of the range officers at CSI and he said that they had some plans afoot for a range down that way, I'm assuming they are one and the same?

As far as i know there is no one from CSI involved in the formation of our club and the development of the range.

We decided at the beginning that no one who was on the committee of another club would be on the committee of this one. We have all been through the situation where a club has been hijacked by others and becomes something that it was never meant to be.

Chris

[jono035]

As far as i know there is no one from CSI involved in the formation of our club and the development of the range.

We decided at the beginning that no one who was on the committee of another club would be on the committee of this one. We have all been through the situation where a club has been hijacked by others and becomes something that it was never meant to be.

Chris

Yeah, I remember you mentioning that but then talking to this guy he was adamant that they must be the same because they were so close and he only knew of one in the works.

2 new ranges is much better than 1, anyway...

[Swoop]

We have all been through the situation where a club has been hijacked by others and becomes something that it was never meant to be.
Alpha PC???

[Mr Merde]

Alpha PC???

Waiuku PC --Originally the Auckland Black powder Club, hijacked by pistol shooters and the BP boys were forced to move.

Papakura PC-- Hijacked by a committee member who had his own agenda. He had good members kicked out if he had any disagreement with them. Club went from 60 members to anout 17 in 2 years

[Brett]

Well it is Christmas, decided to spoil myself...found a good deal on trademe, bought a Remington 700 .270, a Marlin .22 semi and a Mossberg pump action shotty. Quite pleased with myself.

[Wolf]

Niiiiiice Christmas pressies, Brett.

Which one are you wrapping up for the missus?

My Christmas present - a day early - is...





BROADBAND! Yeee-fuckin'-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Brett]

The missus likes a good shot at targets...and we have plenty of bunnies running around the place, so thinking she might enjoy the .22 most...she is not a big girl, so the shotty and .270 might get old rather quickly on her shoulder!

[Wolf]

The missus likes a good shot at targets...and we have plenty of bunnies running around the place, so thinking she might enjoy the .22 most...she is not a big girl, so the shotty and .270 might get old rather quickly on her shoulder!
Cool as. Nice when your lady shares the shooting bug.



Have a safe and enjoyable holiday, everyone.

[Indiana_Jones]

Man love at it's best


<img src="http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=155962&stc=1&d=1261966594">

-Indy

[Drunken Monkey]

haha, you caught me halfway through making a face...

[Mr Merde]

My goodness what a bunch of handsome, baby eating shooters

[The Pastor]

My goodness what a bunch of handsome, baby eating shooters
yeah thank goodness your not in the pic!

[scumdog]

I wouldn't let any individual in that picture have access to anything more lethal than an egg-whisk imho:whistle:

[Mr Merde]

I wouldn't let any individual in that picture have access to anything more lethal than an egg-whisk imho:whistle:

To make it even more frightening.

That day those individuals put somewhere in the vcinity of 1000 assorted rounds down the range and into the sandstone cliff.

everything from .22 to 12 guage, 9mm to .308

tin cans flew, imploded. Frying pans developed large holes, paper was shredded.

In short it was a very good "yippeee" shoot.

[Wolf]

It was a fun shoot, alright. Seriously enjoyed getting to try out a variety of calibres and guns (invaluable (read "Painful") lessons learned regarding the different shot loads) and meeting up with some of the other KB shooters. Great to see the high level of responsibility and safety as well.

Keen as to do it again - next time will bring out my own shotty. Might even bring a friend along, if I may - one of those rare women who actually like shooting and don't automatically think you're nuts for wanting to go shooting.

[Drunken Monkey]

OMG! I think I just found the best website ever. Better than this one even.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

Hours of fun, and real hardcore levels of detail too.

[Indiana_Jones]

OMG! I think I just found the best website ever. Better than this one even.

http://www.imfdb.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

Hours of fun, and real hardcore levels of detail too.

lol I remember that site!

Thanks for refreshing my memory DM!

-Indy

[Wolf]

yep, a brilliant site. Especially for us nerdy types who wonder what so-and-so was using in that movie...

[jono035]

Yeah, I just came across that website the other day, it's pretty interesting.

Just got back from up north where I was doing further research into the ballistic properties of kitchen utensils.

Had a steel wok that made a brilliant gong. Hit it with maybe 100 rounds and only had 4 or 5 go through. Also had an aluminium hot plate thing that used to belong to a long-discarded camping stove. It was about 6-7mm thick and stood up to the .22 rifles brilliantly.

Only got 10 possums over the week that I was up there... Too many campers nearby so had to let a lot of possums go when we couldn't get a shot with them behind us. Took a friend out shooting for the first time and he got one then refused to carry it home, poor effort really. He also looked a little green as my dad skinned and gutted it then threw the entrails to one dog, the head to another and the liver to the cat...

Cheers for posting that photo Indy, it's a shocker.

[Wolf]

Cheers for posting that photo Indy, it's a shocker.
At least Indy was safely behind the camera...

[jono035]

At least Indy was safely behind the camera...

Very true! We're also missing the 'malicious little gnome', I notice...

['99' Cafe' Racer]

I can see the washing in the background - going to do the ironing?

Where is the Bar-B-Que tucker and the mix of Speights plus CD bottles ?? :shifty:

[jono035]

I can see the washing in the background - going to do the ironing?

Where is the Bar-B-Que tucker and the mix of Speights plus CD bottles ?? :shifty:

We had just finished shooting and given that we are responsible and law abiding citizens enjoying ourselves in a safe and courteous manner we had refrained from drinking until after all the guns were put away.

(In other words we stashed all the empties on the barbeque which was behind the cameraman...)

Edit: You missed the candle, too! :D

[Drunken Monkey]

Happy new year my fellow hoplophiles!

Whilst idly wasting my time at work (upgrading backup exec, *yawn*) I stumbled upon this little fella up for sale:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-263056821.htm

Seems like a pretty reasonable price for a shooter like that. I understand these are copies of the Winchester Model 92. Anyone owned one of these? Likes/dislikes?

[jono035]

Chris was using a stainless one in .44 mag when we were shooting there last. There are a ton of them around, although I'm not sure I've seen many chambered in .44/40... It looks like a reasonable price to me, but I have seen them go for around $500 in blued .44 mag.

I just checked guncity and they have one in .44/40, blued steel with a 20" octagonal barrel for $800 brand new.

The next rifle I'm going to get will be a stainless levergun in .44mag but I think I'm going to go with a Marlin 1894 due to the side ejection making it easier to mount a scope should I want to. Probably going to sell the 10/22 target rifle to finance it, though.

[Mr Merde]

My Rossi was originally blued. It has just been antiqued and had custom woodwork added.
Yes you can get them in 44-40 and also in .45 Colt.

Chris

[jono035]

Ah, right, I didn't spot that.

Just checked the website and apparently you can also get them in .38/.357 and .454 Casull... That'd be fun.

[Drunken Monkey]

.44-40 ammo seems a bit harder to come by from my initial looksy around. I might hold off and see what else comes up.

[Drunken Monkey]

Just checked the website and apparently you can also get them in .38/.357 and .454 Casull... That'd be fun.

like this one! http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-262871245.htm

[jono035]

Yep, that's the baby of the family though, the .454 Casull would be a riot...

[Mr Merde]

Yep, that's the baby of the family though, the .454 Casull would be a riot...

With .454 Casull you can use .45 Colt for a less expensive round.

Sort of like shooting .44 Spl in a .44 Mag gun.

The Casull when first came out was found to have more velocity at 200 yards than the .44 mag had at the muzzle.

I have fired a revolver chambered for this round and it was impressive to say the least.

Taurus make handguns for this round.

They also make the "Raging Bull: handgun in .30 M1 Carbine. Turns this mild rifle calibre into a real heavy hitter. Recoil is something fierce.

Chris

[jono035]

Yeah, the raging bull line of revolvers seems to be getting quite popular, there are a lot of people on a lot of different shooting boards extolling their virtues. One of the guys at the range sold his S&W 629 to finance the purchase of a 6" SS Raging Bull in .44 magnum, hopefully I'll get a chance to have a play with it when it arrives and can compare it against my model 44....

[jono035]

*drops a pin*

RM: Whereabouts did you order your press and dies from? Trying to figure out a way of getting a few casting bits on the cheap.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Anyone know where I can find out what the 'stamps' on my .303 actually mean ? The NZ and 1901 are obvious but some of the others have me guessing.

[jono035]

Have a quick google around. I had a look around a while back randomly and there were quite a few resources out there dedicated to deciphering those marks.

[Mumbles]

Figured if I posted it, I would have to do it!
Off to the range tomorrow first free weekend for about 6 months and I need to get my shoots up!! Reloading tomorrow and then better see what the para looks like.... seems such a long time ago that we went out for a shoot, I've almost forgotten what it looks like!

[Swoop]

Anyone know where I can find out what the 'stamps' on my .303 actually mean ? The NZ and 1901 are obvious but some of the others have me guessing.
Take it along to an IMAS meeting. There are a few there who will chew your ear all evening about .303's...

[1vanvan1]

I recently joined the air force and on my recruit course we were given Styers to shoot. FUn weapons! Speacially when put of fully auto!! :D

[sAsLEX]

Happy new year my fellow hoplophiles!

Whilst idly wasting my time at work (upgrading backup exec, *yawn*) I stumbled upon this little fella up for sale:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-263056821.htm

Seems like a pretty reasonable price for a shooter like that. I understand these are copies of the Winchester Model 92. Anyone owned one of these? Likes/dislikes?

I have an original 92........

[ManDownUnder]

Took the little man and my good self to the local rifle range yesterday, found a guy with a Tikka T3 in 270, who offered me a shot - right alongside the 270WSM. Couldn't feel a difference to be honest - they both kick enough to make you want to hang on tight before the lead starts to fly.

Met some bloody good people there too.

Ruben (let's call him BoyDownUnder) got loose with the .22 at a few targets. bloody good fun. Little bugger hit a few bullseyes too. I'm getting more and more keen on finding a youth rifle for him - something I can put a cheap scope on. Anyone got ideas?

[jono035]

Sounds like a good day MDU. I've seen a couple of single shot, bolt action Norincos on trademe pretty cheap, a couple with 4x20 scopes already mounted. Don't know how big they would end up for him though.

Dropped the car off to have the SRS controller replaced today (holy s&%t, $1k later...) and walked past a tire shop on the way home, wandered in, got chatting to the guy behind the counter and walked away with a huge bucket of wheel weights (30kg??) for free. Decided a taxi the rest of the way home was in order given that the bus requires a fair bit of walking to get to my place...

[wbks]

Hey experts is it a general theme for semi's to not cycle with subsonics? Me and a mate were thinking of going halves on an m14 to silence but I can't help but think that obviously there'd be no point unless you used subsonics, and then you may get trouble cycling and even with a bolt action it wouldn't drop much less than a goat, anyway?

[jono035]

From the limited reading around I've done there are plenty of people out there who have had good success with suppressing .308s but you definitely pay the price on range and performance... It entirely depends on what your goals are for range and target.

Semi-auto also makes the project a little difficult... The standard way people seem to make subsonic loads for centerfire rifle cartridges is to use small charges of quite fast powder, which means there is no pressure left at the end of the barrel to cycle the action. As I understand it you can modify the gas system so that it works off a lower pressure, but if you're going to all that effort then an M14 might not be the best starting platform? I have also read about rifles with adjustable gas systems being able to be tuned to work with lower pressure ammo. You'd have to take a bit of a look around really.

There is always the approach of going for a cartridge that is normally a bit closer to subsonic as well like a pistol cartridge. The next thing I'm thinking of having a play with is trying to make a suppressed lever action .44 mag.... Would work out brilliantly on goats/pigs and possibly even deer at shorter ranges but I'd be doing it out of interest, not for any purpose, as such.

Edit: Also beware, I don't know how successful the scope mounts for the M14s work out to be, anyone here have any experience with them?

[Drunken Monkey]

There is a video on YouTube of a person demonstrating a silenced M1A (basically the same thing). The action was cycled manually, but the gun was effectively supressed. If I can find it again I will post it.

Here we go, and it is an M14, not an M1A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=socgmULGVOA

[Drunken Monkey]

Edit: Also beware, I don't know how successful the scope mounts for the M14s work out to be, anyone here have any experience with them?

Not on mine, but my customer who advised me to get the Norinco has. Cheap (<$300) scope mounts won't keep the scope true. The flash mil-spec one is fine, but it is over $400.

[wbks]

There is a video on YouTube of a person demonstrating a silenced M1A (basically the same thing). The action was cycled manually, but the gun was effectively supressed. If I can find it again I will post it.

Here we go, and it is an M14, not an M1A:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=socgmULGVOABeing cycled manually you might as well go with a bolt, anyhow? I wonder if that would drop a deer

[jono035]

DM - Interesting, I figured that might be the case, seems like it's the same with all of those guns with the offset scope mounts.

I would prefer a bolt-action to a semi-auto that wouldn't cycle, to be sure. Less parts and lighter.

If you're not dead set on using a specific round then look at doing it with a round that travels slower to begin with. If you assume that the bullet has to be subsonic then all the bullets are going to have roughly the same trajectory but the energy will depend on the weight of bullet you use. A relatively heavy bullet for .30 cal is 180 grains. A heavy bullet for .44 magnum is 300 grains which will have almost twice the energy at the same speed. It will have much better wounding capacity at the target as well given that normal rifle bullets apparently don't expand in subsonic loads.

Starting with a round that fires slower to begin with you're much less likely to run into issues with needing a custom barrel with a faster twist rate to stabilise the projectiles which seems to be a common theme as well. Taking something like the .44 magnum which tops out at 1500fps and running it at 1000fps is going to be much easier to do than taking a .308 which tops out at 3000fps and running it at 1000fps...

[Flip]

I have been stuffing around with subsonic loads in 308 and 44-40 for years.

I have even shot subs in my M14 clone. It did not cycle but did shoot a very good group at 100m it just shot 4" to the left of the point of aim.

One word "Wisper 50".

[wbks]

DM - Interesting, I figured that might be the case, seems like it's the same with all of those guns with the offset scope mounts.

I would prefer a bolt-action to a semi-auto that wouldn't cycle, to be sure. Less parts and lighter.

If you're not dead set on using a specific round then look at doing it with a round that travels slower to begin with. If you assume that the bullet has to be subsonic then all the bullets are going to have roughly the same trajectory but the energy will depend on the weight of bullet you use. A relatively heavy bullet for .30 cal is 180 grains. A heavy bullet for .44 magnum is 300 grains which will have almost twice the energy at the same speed. It will have much better wounding capacity at the target as well given that normal rifle bullets apparently don't expand in subsonic loads.

Starting with a round that fires slower to begin with you're much less likely to run into issues with needing a custom barrel with a faster twist rate to stabilise the projectiles which seems to be a common theme as well. Taking something like the .44 magnum which tops out at 1500fps and running it at 1000fps is going to be much easier to do than taking a .308 which tops out at 3000fps and running it at 1000fps...OK Thanks for the tip. But are you talking about specific rifles that have trouble getting accuracy with subsonics in .308? I haven't heard anything so far about it from people who shoot from as far as I know, just standard bolt actions with a supressor attached

[jono035]

I only know what I've read on forums with people talking about doing similar things and one of the problems mentioned was getting the bullet to stabilise properly. For the same target velocity the barrel twist rates that can be used are different. If a bullet is supposed to be used at 3000fps then at 1000fps it will be spinning at 1/3rd of the speed which can mean that it may not fly straight. I don't know if this is a major problem or not, I only know that a lot of people have reported having to try various different combinations of bullet and barrel twist rate to avoid keyholing on the targets.

Flip: Sounds like you've got some actual experience with this stuff, what kind of powders/projectiles do you use? Do you use anything as a case filler? Have you had any problems with rounds losing stability?

[Swoop]

Anyone with a clone M-14?
Can you confirm that it has the gas-port shut off between the barrell and the gas tube please? My old one used to, so it could be turned off to create a straight-pull rifle.
Also, the B-square mounts have small grub screws in them and may move around a bit. Spending decent money on the mount would be a wise investment on an M-14.

[Mr Merde]

.....

One word "Wisper 50".

When I saw this thread I imediately thought of the .300 Whisper. Strange that someone else also thought of this line of cartridges also.

<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT: #aaa 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #aaa 1px solid; FONT-SIZE: 80%; BACKGROUND: #f9f9f9; MARGIN-LEFT: 10px; BORDER-LEFT: #aaa 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #aaa 1px solid; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; TEXT-ALIGN: center" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 align=right border=1><CAPTION style="FONT-SIZE: 120%">The Whisper Family</CAPTION><TBODY><TR><TH bgColor=#efefef>Cartridge</TH><TH bgColor=#efefef>Parent Case</TH></TR><TR><TD>6mm Whisper</TD><TD>.221 Fireball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.221_Fireball)</TD></TR><TR><TD>6.5mm Whisper</TD><TD>.221 Fireball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.221_Fireball)</TD></TR><TR><TD>7mm Whisper</TD><TD>.221 Fireball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.221_Fireball)</TD></TR><TR><TD>.300 Whisper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_Whisper)</TD><TD>.221 Fireball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.221_Fireball)</TD></TR><TR><TD>.338 Whisper #2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Whisper#2)</TD><TD>.221 Fireball (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.221_Fireball)</TD></TR><TR><TD>.338 Whisper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Whisper)</TD><TD>7mm Bench Rest</TD></TR><TR><TD>.375 Whisper</TD><TD>7mm Bench Rest</TD></TR><TR><TD>.416 Whisper</TD><TD>7mm Bench Rest</TD></TR><TR><TD>.458 Whisper</TD><TD>.458 Winchester magnum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Winchester_magnum)</TD></TR><TR><TD>.500 Whisper</TD><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>.510 Whisper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.510_Whisper)</TD><TD>.338 Lapua Mag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Lapua)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

As you can see from the following chart the .308 boltface will accomadate a number of the whisper cartridge family as it is the same as the 7mm Bench rest bolt face.

[Mr Merde]

.338 Whisper and .338 Whisper #2<!--mstheme-->

There are actually two versions of the .338 Whisper. The original .338 Whisper is based on the 7mm Remington Benchrest case, which simplifies conversion of rifles that use .308 Winchester case head dimensions (.470").
The .338 Whisper #2 is based on the .221 Fireball case. This allows easier conversion from rifles originally chambered in .223 Remington, such as the AR-15 and variants.

<!--mstheme-->.375 Whisper<!--mstheme-->

The .375 Whisper is based on the 7mm Remington Benchrest case, which simplifies conversion of rifles that use .308 Winchester case head dimensions (.470"). The .375 Whisper may fare a little better as a hunting round than its .338 sibling, but in just about any other area, the .338 has it beat largely because of the wider variety of bullet types available for it.

http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/sskwhisper.html

Try this site in NZ

http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/suppress/whisper.htm

[Mr Merde]

Actually this whole concept has arroused my interest.

I used to shoot a Contender in 7mmTCU.

I always lusted after a barrel from JD Jones' company. In particular ther .375 JDJ

I remember the Whisper round when it was first announced. Not a really long distance shooter but capable of being real quiet when needed.

I wonder what it would entail in building a bolt action rifle or having a Mini 14 built in one of these calibres.

The Mini 14 would be very interesting but I think that a case catcher would have to be a required attachment as the brass is specialised ( I cant afford to throw my money away)

[jono035]

Yeah, I did run across quite a few references to the .300 whisper when looking at the .308 stuff. According to the wikipedia page, .223 rifles can simply be rebarrelled to make up a .300 whisper rifle given that you can make the cases from trimmed .223 cases (solution to the throwing money away issue?) and the OAL for both .300 whisper and .223 would seem to be the same.

I have seen people discussing how to get semi-autos working with subsonic rounds and there seem to be quite a few different variables. Gas port size and location seem to be key and there are comments about them working in AR-15s with adjustable gas blocks.

Just noticed the .510 Whisper, designed to be used with .50 BMG bullets... That would be particularly awesome.

[Mr Merde]

Check this out then

14.5mm JDJ ...
SSK has non Destructive Device exemption for a 14.5 MM (.585") cartridge.

The 14.5 MM JDJ is based on the 50 BMG case. The neck is opened to accept the SSK 1173 grain bullet loaded over 235 grains of 5010 to fire form the case. Other bullets may become available in the near future.

In the test rifle 100 yard accuracy hovers between .3 and .5" with this fireform load. Velocity is chronographed at 26--2700 feet per second with the 1173 grain bullet. My worst 300 yard three shot group with it is 1.509". The 750 Barnes is a real performer at 3000 FPS. Dies are in stock. Actions suitable for the 50 BMG are the ONLY ones that will take this cartridge. We recommend McMillan actions. Guns are all custom built according to customer preferences. It is doubtful that it will be possible to build one for less than $5,500. Please do not email questions---if seriously interested call--740-264-0176.



http://www.sskindustries.com/14.5%20page/1402.gif


SSK's 14.5mm JDJ rifle is based on a 50BMG bolt action. The cartridge has a
Destructive Device exemption. Scope is a 5x22 Nightforce. Barrel on this one
is 36" plus muzzle brake and weighs 42 pounds.



http://www.sskindustries.com/14.5%20page/1403.gif


SSK's 14.5mm Brake



http://www.sskindustries.com/14.5%20page/1404.gif


McMillan "Fisher" type action as used in the SSK 14.5mm JDJ rifle.
Case shown has been fire-formed with the SSK 1173 grain 14.5 bullet.



http://www.sskindustries.com/14.5%20page/1401.gif


SSK 1173 grain 14.5mm bullet, fire formed 14.5 JDJ case.
50 BMG case loaded and ready to fire form with 235 grains of 5010.
Downrange ballistic performance of the heavy, streamlined projectile is exceptional.



http://www.sskindustries.com/14.5%20page/1405.gif

[jono035]

28kJ of energy at the muzzle. Thats a good 1.5x the beefier .50 BMG loads... yikes.

I'm going to take a wild guess that it probably doesn't suppress all that well, though...

[jono035]

From those same nutjobs (SSK Industries)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.950_JDJ

3600 grain (250 gram) bullet at 2200 fps for 52 kJ at the muzzle.

Cartridge is a shortened and necked up 20mm vulcan case, Rifles weigh around 50kg with an 8.2kg muzzle brake. Cost around USD$8000 with factory rounds at $40 each and lathe-turned bronze bullets for $10 each.

"the rifle should not be held to the shoulder unless the shooter is prepared for severe recoil and possible injury."

[Mr Merde]

Each to their own i suppose.

I too have been slacking off at work. Reading up on the Mini 14 and 300 Whisper combination. I am getting more interested as I read into this subject.

Most septics are using the AR platform for the conversion rather than the Mini 14. They also seem to be using the Remington 700 as a base for a bolt action.

Interesting

[jono035]

Yeah, that was the impression that I got, too. There seem to be quite a few people dismissing the mini-14 as 'incurably inaccurate by design' but again having no experience with them I don't know if this is truth, exaggerated truth or total bs.

Is there anything specific about the mini-14 that makes it a good choice or just the fact that it is common enough to make a cheap project gun?

It would seem that anything chambered in .223 would do so maybe looking for a semi-auto with an adjustable gas system would be a good place to start?

A Remington 700 would be a good default choice if accuracy was a large factor.

Edit: Yeah, both of those big rifles from SSK seem to be a little bit excessive to me. Most of my toys don't get used for much more than punching paper anyway but I'm not particularly interested in anything that non-functional.

[Mr Merde]

Gun City have one for sale Their code GB0129. Selling for $2399

[jono035]

'With silencer and scope'... I wonder how good the suppressor and scope are, though. The fact that they are unnamed isn't encouraging.

Assuming a cheap scope and gunworks suppressor, $2k for the mini-14 and .300 whisper barrel.

I wonder if they have done anything beyond re-barelling it?

[wbks]

From those same nutjobs (SSK Industries)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.950_JDJ

3600 grain (250 gram) bullet at 2200 fps for 52 kJ at the muzzle.

Cartridge is a shortened and necked up 20mm vulcan case, Rifles weigh around 50kg with an 8.2kg muzzle brake. Cost around USD$8000 with factory rounds at $40 each and lathe-turned bronze bullets for $10 each.

"the rifle should not be held to the shoulder unless the shooter is prepared for severe recoil and possible injury."I can't particularly see much point in something so expensive that needs to be fixed to shoot...


Yeah, that was the impression that I got, too. There seem to be quite a few people dismissing the mini-14 as 'incurably inaccurate by design' but again having no experience with them I don't know if this is truth, exaggerated truth or total bs.

Is there anything specific about the mini-14 that makes it a good choice or just the fact that it is common enough to make a cheap project gun?

It would seem that anything chambered in .223 would do so maybe looking for a semi-auto with an adjustable gas system would be a good place to start?

A Remington 700 would be a good default choice if accuracy was a large factor.

Edit: Yeah, both of those big rifles from SSK seem to be a little bit excessive to me. Most of my toys don't get used for much more than punching paper anyway but I'm not particularly interested in anything that non-functional.The guy in this video uses a 1/8 barrel and says he gets as low as 1/2" with .300 whisper. Quiet, too.
Don't know what the ballistics look like for this round but looks like they all have aftermarket barrels, I'm assuming for the stabilization you were talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7Pbyf-eLW4
And this AR seems to work great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT2U6NdkwFk

[Mr Merde]

'With silencer and scope'... I wonder how good the suppressor and scope are, though. The fact that they are unnamed isn't encouraging.

Assuming a cheap scope and gunworks suppressor, $2k for the mini-14 and .300 whisper barrel.

I wonder if they have done anything beyond re-barelling it?

I wondered that. New barrel probably around the $500 mark plus the cost of reaming the chamber and fitting another $200

You apparently dont have to do any other work to the receiver or the magazine.

Could do with a nicer looking stock, properly bedded of course.

[jono035]

You're not wrong about that rifle but then again if it needs to be fixed to shoot it's not thaaat different from some benchrest competitions. It's a curiosity and nothing more really in the same way as the .50 BMG is for most people.

Yeah, the faster barrel twist rate for stablising the .308 is exactly what I was getting at before. Most of them seem to be using 1:8 barrels with the .300 whisper using the same projectiles that you would use for a subsonic .308 which means you would need a 1:8 twist .308 barrel for best performace with subsonics. If you need a custom twist rate barrel then you might as well go for an entirely different round which is where I see the .300 whisper coming in.

As a side note, a .308 with the same twist rate barrel, loaded to the same velocity with the same projectile will have the same ballistics as a .300 whisper, the only difference is in the case size which effects the powder used.

All subsonic rounds are going to perform much the same in terms of trajectory so it's going to be a bit of a rainbow really, with the drop at 100m being 0.5m and at 200m being 2m. This means that apart from target shooting at fixed distances it is going to be pretty difficult to use past 100m. In terms of repeatability (grouping) then I really don't know, there are people claiming 1-2" at 300 yards but at that range you've got a 4.6m drop so you won't be using it for hunting out to that range, for sure.

That's a neat video of the AR-15, I still don't know exactly what has to be done to make them cycle nicely using the subsonics, someone on a forum mentioned something about fitting an adjustable gas block so with a bit of luck it could be quite simple...

[jono035]

I wondered that. New barrel probably around the $500 mark plus the cost of reaming the chamber and fitting another $200

You apparently dont have to do any other work to the receiver or the magazine.

Could do with a nicer looking stock, properly bedded of course.

I don't even know what form you would be buying new barrels in? With the bore cut and rifled for a certain caliber bullet but the chamber un-reamed?

[Mr Merde]

I don't even know what form you would be buying new barrels in? With the bore cut and rifled for a certain caliber bullet but the chamber un-reamed?

Thats how I got the barrel for my Remington Rolling BLock.
I had to have the chamber reamed, the dovetails for the sights cut ,the receiver end threaded and the barrel mounted in the receiver. Cost me $600 for the barrel and $250 for all the work in mounting it to the receiver.

[wbks]

You're not wrong about that rifle but then again if it needs to be fixed to shoot it's not thaaat different from some benchrest competitions. It's a curiosity and nothing more really in the same way as the .50 BMG is for most people.

Yeah, the faster barrel twist rate for stablising the .308 is exactly what I was getting at before. Most of them seem to be using 1:8 barrels with the .300 whisper using the same projectiles that you would use for a subsonic .308 which means you would need a 1:8 twist .308 barrel for best performace with subsonics. If you need a custom twist rate barrel then you might as well go for an entirely different round which is where I see the .300 whisper coming in.

As a side note, a .308 with the same twist rate barrel, loaded to the same velocity with the same projectile will have the same ballistics as a .300 whisper, the only difference is in the case size which effects the powder used.

All subsonic rounds are going to perform much the same in terms of trajectory so it's going to be a bit of a rainbow really, with the drop at 100m being 0.5m and at 200m being 2m. This means that apart from target shooting at fixed distances it is going to be pretty difficult to use past 100m. In terms of repeatability (grouping) then I really don't know, there are people claiming 1-2" at 300 yards but at that range you've got a 4.6m drop so you won't be using it for hunting out to that range, for sure.

That's a neat video of the AR-15, I still don't know exactly what has to be done to make them cycle nicely using the subsonics, someone on a forum mentioned something about fitting an adjustable gas block so with a bit of luck it could be quite simple...Well I guess the choice depends on how much difference there is in the volume of the actual cartridge, then. If there isn't a huge difference I'm thinking that maybe just using a 1:8 barrel and silencer in .308 would be the best idea. Not exactly "custom" so there wouldn't be much messing around, and subsonics to fit off the shelf. Just comes down to the difference in powder load obviously making the most difference in noise?

[jono035]

Well I guess the choice depends on how much difference there is in the volume of the actual cartridge, then. If there isn't a huge difference I'm thinking that maybe just using a 1:8 barrel and silencer in .308 would be the best idea. Not exactly "custom" so there wouldn't be much messing around, and subsonics to fit off the shelf. Just comes down to the difference in powder load obviously making the most difference in noise?

I figured that a .300 whisper was a better choice.

For the .308 you're assuming you can FIND a .308 barrel with a 1:8 twist (haven't looked into this at all). If you have to go for a custom barrel then you might as well make a .300 whisper because the reloading will be less iffy (no worries with case filler, drilling out flash holes or the secondary explosive effect people seem concerned about). It appears you can make .300 whisper cases easily from .223 remington or .221 fireball, both of which seem common enough. Also you won't be able to use normal .308 rounds in a 1:8 twist chamber, the bullets will be spinning too fast and will disintegrate as soon as they leave the barrel. The action for the .300 whisper will be based on the lighter/shorter .223 remington action, too.

Are factory subsonics easily available for the .308? From my reading it seemed they were pretty rare and most people hand-loaded, anyway.

The smaller case will make more efficient use of the powder and will be safer with smaller powder charges.

Edit: If you had a bolt action with an easily changed barrel then I could see .308 being a good choice because you could swap between normal .308 barrel and suppressed .308 barrel which would seem to be more versatile than swapping between .300 whisper and .223, but even then I'd probably just build them up as 2 separate rifles if I needed them anyway, that way there is less stuffing around constantly re-zeroing your scope...

[Mr Merde]

Well I guess the choice depends on how much difference there is in the volume of the actual cartrage, then. If there isn't a huge difference I'm thinking that maybe just using a 1:8 barrel and silencer in .308 would be the best idea. Not exactly "custom" so there wouldn't be much messing around, and subsonics to fit off the shelf. Just comes down to the difference in powder load obviously making the most difference in noise?

You have to watch underloading a cartridge, Can be as dangerous as overloading. I've seen revolvers with top strap and cylinders blown all because of an underloaded case.

[jono035]

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. I wasn't suggesting that the ballistics were the same as an argument in favor of the .308, more as a curiosity.

The ballistics, bullet and powders used for both will be the same.
Both will require a custom barrel. You won't be able to use this barrel for full strength .308 loads.
Both will be similar volume after being suppressed.

The .300 whisper will be easier to reload but the brass may require you to cut down some cheap .223 brass to make (simple process).
The .308 will be easier to get brass for but may require you to modify the brass (larger flash hole) and/or use case filler when loading the cases which can be a pain. It also may be at risk from the SEE (secondary explosive effect) which could be dangerous.

The .300 whisper will use a .223 remington action which will be lighter due to it being more appropriate for the power of the cartridge. The .223 remington action in a semi-automatic will be more likely to cycle under the subsonic pressures.

I'd definitely be going for the .300 whisper, especially for 'cool' factor.

[jono035]

True-Flite barrels are available as 'Premium Suppressor' type barrels for .30 cal with 1:8 twist...

Premium Suppressor (2 barrel minimum).30 cal x 1-8",.338 cal x 1-9", 15"-17".$336.00
Chamber, crown and fit Premium barrel ( bolt actions only ) .................from $196.00

So a custom barrel seems like it could shake out to less than $550 fitted. That seems pretty damn reasonable, really.

Just firing off an e-mail to them now to see if they will chamber for .300 whisper, it isn't listed on their website.

[wbks]

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer. I wasn't suggesting that the ballistics were the same as an argument in favor of the .308, more as a curiosity.

The ballistics, bullet and powders used for both will be the same.
Both will require a custom barrel. You won't be able to use this barrel for full strength .308 loads.
Both will be similar volume after being suppressed.

The .300 whisper will be easier to reload but the brass may require you to cut down some cheap .223 brass to make (simple process).
The .308 will be easier to get brass for but may require you to modify the brass (larger flash hole) and/or use case filler when loading the cases which can be a pain. It also may be at risk from the SEE (secondary explosive effect) which could be dangerous.

The .300 whisper will use a .223 remington action which will be lighter due to it being more appropriate for the power of the cartridge. The .223 remington action in a semi-automatic will be more likely to cycle under the subsonic pressures.

I'd definitely be going for the .300 whisper, especially for 'cool' factor.Haven't heard of secondary explosion effect, guess I'll be googling it. So you suggest a rem700 223?

[wbks]

True-Flite barrels are available as 'Premium Suppressor' type barrels for .30 cal with 1:8 twist...

Premium Suppressor (2 barrel minimum).30 cal x 1-8",.338 cal x 1-9", 15"-17".$336.00
Chamber, crown and fit Premium barrel ( bolt actions only ) .................from $196.00

So a custom barrel seems like it could shake out to less than $550 fitted. That seems pretty damn reasonable, really.

Just firing off an e-mail to them now to see if they will chamber for .300 whisper, it isn't listed on their website.So you're curious about doing it yourself now?...
What length barrels are those?

[jono035]

Haven't heard of secondary explosion effect, guess I'll be googling it. So you suggest a rem700 223?

SEE was a new one to me too when I was looking around, it appears to be a problem with the powder not igniting properly, smouldering for a second or 2 then detonating. I don't know how common it is but there are a few photos out there of destroyed rifles so I'd be pretty wary.

I've only ever shot a Remington 700 half a dozen times so I have no experience with them but they do seem to be very popular amongst hunters and target shooters. That said, given that the custom barrel option is much cheaper than expected you could happily use a cheaper action without losing any sleep over it. If you could pick up a stock/action with a dead barrel for $500, custom barrel for $550 and then with mount/rings/scope/suppressor you could probably have it shake out to around $1500 if you were frugal. It's an interesting thought.

Edit: Yeah, I'm very curious about doing it myself now! It's a neat looking little cartridge that seems like it has some pretty good potential... I'd still like to see how suppressing a .44 magnum would go but I think the size of suppressor required along with having to maintain barrel length on a lever action to keep tube-mag capacity might scupper my suppressed lever-action ideas...

[wbks]

SEE was a new one to me too when I was looking around, it appears to be a problem with the powder not igniting properly, smouldering for a second or 2 then detonating. I don't know how common it is but there are a few photos out there of destroyed rifles so I'd be pretty wary.

I've only ever shot a Remington 700 half a dozen times so I have no experience with them but they do seem to be very popular amongst hunters and target shooters. That said, given that the custom barrel option is much cheaper than expected you could happily use a cheaper action without losing any sleep over it. If you could pick up a stock/action with a dead barrel for $500, custom barrel for $550 and then with mount/rings/scope/suppressor you could probably have it shake out to around $1500 if you were frugal. It's an interesting thought.

Edit: Yeah, I'm very curious about doing it myself now! It's a neat looking little cartridge that seems like it has some pretty good potential...I have no idea with DIY setups, so are there many restrictions on what actions/stocks you would want for a truflite 1:8 that you listed?

[Mr Merde]

True-Flite barrels are available as 'Premium Suppressor' type barrels for .30 cal with 1:8 twist...

Premium Suppressor (2 barrel minimum).30 cal x 1-8",.338 cal x 1-9", 15"-17".$336.00
Chamber, crown and fit Premium barrel ( bolt actions only ) .................from $196.00

So a custom barrel seems like it could shake out to less than $550 fitted. That seems pretty damn reasonable, really.

Just firing off an e-mail to them now to see if they will chamber for .300 whisper, it isn't listed on their website.

Let me know what they say. Suppressed barrels have to be minimum order of 2. May be worth getting my Weatherby\Howa rechambered for 300 Whisper. Definitely would be fun.

[jono035]

Well that price was including fitting so I assume they'll fit it to damn near anything you provide them (possibly with more cost if it turns out to be difficult).

Hell, there is a Norinco .223 bolt action for $500 on TM at the moment, it'd be a weird one but hey, if you're on a budget *shrug*

[Mr Merde]

So you're curious about doing it yourself now?...
What length barrels are those?

Up to 34" according to the site

[jono035]

Let me know what they say. Suppressed barrels have to be minimum order of 2. May be worth getting my Weatherby\Howa rechambered for 300 Whisper. Definitely would be fun.

I think that is a barrel for use with a suppressor (fast twist) rather than a suppressed barrel.

"Premium Suppressor (PS). Available in .30 calibre 1-8" twist and .338 calibre 1-9" twist in lengths 15" to 17" only. Accuracy from these barrels with suppressors fitted has been outstanding, equalling match standards. Needless to say, best results are achieved with heavy bullets."

Given that it says the barrel is a minimum order of 2, I'm guessing you could get and on-sell the other as unchambered or get it chambered differently and fitted to a different action...

[jono035]

Up to 34" according to the site

Sorry wbks, didn't see that additional question. The 'Premium Suppressed' barrels are listed as 15" to 17" although you only need enough length to get the bullet up to 1000fps so even a 15" would do it. The longer the barrel the lower the pressure as the bullet exits, so a 17" barrel should be quieter...

[wbks]

Well that price was including fitting so I assume they'll fit it to damn near anything you provide them (possibly with more cost if it turns out to be difficult).

Hell, there is a Norinco .223 bolt action for $500 on TM at the moment, it'd be a weird one but hey, if you're on a budget *shrug*Ok, I wasn't really sure if it had to be an easy throw together kind of thing or if most things can be machined. Finding a cheap .223 bolt action & stock should be easy assuming they can work well with those barrels, or do you think a norinco would be pretty rough shot?...

@ The last quotes from you: I guess those prices are in USD, because that seems like a pretty good price for two custom barrels

[Mr Merde]

....
@ The last quotes from you: I guess those prices are in USD, because that seems like a pretty good price for two custom barrels

These prices are in NZ dollars

[jono035]

It's up to you what action you'd want to use, really. Just tally up the total cost to figure out if spending the extra is worth it. A $500 second hand Norinco with the new barrel and scope etc. might run you $1500 whereas using a 2nd hand Remington 700 action might work out to $2k... That isn't really that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

As to how the barrels are mounted to the actions, all I know is that it varies. Apparently with the 700 the barrel is threaded into the action so that will require them to thread the end of the barrel and use special tooling to grip the action and barrel to assemble them.

Prices from True-Flite are in NZD because they're an NZ company! http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/5166.html

Apparently they're pretty well regarded and ship their stuff worldwide, pretty cool to have in our back yard!

Edit: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=10506/guntechdetail/How_To_Build_Your_Own_Remington_700___Part_I has a good description of how to monkey with a Remington 700...

[wbks]

It's up to you what action you'd want to use, really. Just tally up the total cost to figure out if spending the extra is worth it. A $500 second hand Norinco with the new barrel and scope etc. might run you $1500 whereas using a 2nd hand Remington 700 action might work out to $2k... That isn't really that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

As to how the barrels are mounted to the actions, all I know is that it varies. Apparently with the 700 the barrel is threaded into the action so that will require them to thread the end of the barrel and use special tooling to grip the action and barrel to assemble them.

Prices from True-Flite are in NZD because they're an NZ company! http://www.truefliteriflebarrels.co.nz/5166.html

Apparently they're pretty well regarded and ship their stuff worldwide, pretty cool to have in our back yard!

Edit: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=10506/guntechdetail/How_To_Build_Your_Own_Remington_700___Part_I has a good description of how to monkey with a Remington 700...So you could get a norinco for $500 or a little less, get it ready to go with one of the two tru-flite barrels for 532, and be left with a ready to go base for $1032. Anything else I'm missing besides a supressor/scope & rings and stock? Seems pretty affordable. With any luck I can find a better action floating around for the same price

[jono035]

Well the scope mount is the only addition to that list. The Norinco listed on TM for $500 already has all of that bar the suppressor, so (assuming it's an easy action to rebarrel) then you could be all done and dusted for $1100 + $300 suppressor...

I still think I'd go for a better action if I was going to spend around 1k on it for barrel+suppressor.

[jono035]

It didn't occur to me until I was browsing through the bullet casting forums but that cartridge being subsonic makes it a brilliant candidate for running cast bullets through. I've found quite a few people talking about using 180-250 grain bullets with a 200 grain lee mold being available off the shelf. Everyone seems to be using gas checks although this could be simply because all .30 cal molds are made assuming you'll be using them in quick loads. There are a few people who have speculated that a plain base bullet could work very well but no-one seems to have tried it.

This idea is starting to look more and more interesting all the time...

Edit: I've also found load data going all over the map from a few grains of Red Dot (Shotgun powder!) to 4 grains of Unique (AP70N, same as my current jug). Also the pressures should be relatively low so the brass should last nicely. Ignoring the cost of brass (.223 is cheap and then the time to cut to size, run through a sizing die and then trim) the cartridge should be damn cheap to shoot using a fast powder. 9c primer, 6c of powder, a few cents for the lead...

[Swoop]

I too have been slacking off at work. Reading up on the Mini 14 and 300 Whisper combination. Most septics are using the AR platform for the conversion rather than the Mini 14. They also seem to be using the Remington 700 as a base for a bolt action.
8 or 9 years ago a mate of mine had one built here. I cannot remember what action it was built on (possibly R-700) and the work was done locally. PES did the suppressor can, the reamer dies were brought in and he had the barrel reamed & worked on in Hamilton.
I was very impressed at the range. The noise that it didn't make was amazing.
I'll try and catch up with him at the range and see what he ended up doing with it.

[sAsLEX]

Right, need to suppress the .22, or maybe a flash suppressor to make it more E catty.......


Any local suppressor company/gunsmith around Auckland who can supply/fit, or are gunworks the best bet?

[wbks]

Right, need to suppress the .22, or maybe a flash suppressor to make it more E catty.......


Any local suppressor company/gunsmith around Auckland who can supply/fit, or are gunworks the best bet?Easy there, Mr. Molenar...

[Mr Merde]

It didn't occur to me until I was browsing through the bullet casting forums but that cartridge being subsonic makes it a brilliant candidate for running cast bullets through. I've found quite a few people talking about using 180-250 grain bullets with a 200 grain lee mold being available off the shelf. Everyone seems to be using gas checks although this could be simply because all .30 cal molds are made assuming you'll be using them in quick loads. There are a few people who have speculated that a plain base bullet could work very well but no-one seems to have tried it.

This idea is starting to look more and more interesting all the time...

Edit: I've also found load data going all over the map from a few grains of Red Dot (Shotgun powder!) to 4 grains of Unique (AP70N, same as my current jug). Also the pressures should be relatively low so the brass should last nicely. Ignoring the cost of brass (.223 is cheap and then the time to cut to size, run through a sizing die and then trim) the cartridge should be damn cheap to shoot using a fast powder. 9c primer, 6c of powder, a few cents for the lead...

Boat tail bullets come into their own at longer distances. 500 metres plus. Plain base bullets are good up to there. Sub sonic rounds would be good for casting. Linotype would be best. Gas checks only really necessary at velocitities in the high "teens" but I do have the gas check making tool for .30 calibres.

.223 cases need more work than .221, may be worth looking for this brass. Dont forget you will need the case foirming dies and the loading dies. Can get them from SSK.

I agree that this would be an interesting project. The fun in developing accurate rounds both sub and super sonic would be very gratifying.

Accuracy to 300 metres would fill the .223 gap in my collection.

20 cents a round is not out of the question.

I was watching some vids on youtube and that round with a bolt action is very quiet. Recoil looked very light also.

A subsonic shooting club? Could be fun.

[sAsLEX]

Suppressors.....
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[jono035]

A bunch of the guys are casting with straight WW and water dropping so it could be WW with a GC or lino without, worth trying. Perhaps it would be worth getting a Lee mold and trying some way of reaming out the gas check groove slightly to make a plain base, they molds are cheap enough anyway...

I figured .223 was a good idea because you wouldn't need forming dies because you're only necking down, hence my enthusiasm. It really does depend on .221 availability really, which I have absolutely no idea of. No reason you can't do both and compare, anyway!

I don't think this thing will really be a hunting round beyond 100-150 metres though, targets to 300m maybe.

Was looking at those bolt action vids too, incredibly quiet, very interesting.

[Mr Merde]

A bunch of the guys are casting with straight WW and water dropping so it could be WW with a GC or lino without, worth trying. Perhaps it would be worth getting a Lee mold and trying some way of reaming out the gas check groove slightly to make a plain base, they molds are cheap enough anyway...

I figured .223 was a good idea because you wouldn't need forming dies because you're only necking down, hence my enthusiasm. It really does depend on .221 availability really, which I have absolutely no idea of. No reason you can't do both and compare, anyway!

I don't think this thing will really be a hunting round beyond 100-150 metres though, targets to 300m maybe.

Was looking at those bolt action vids too, incredibly quiet, very interesting.

I am sure you can get .30 calibre bullet moulds with plain bases. I'll have a look online tomorrow.

100-200 metres, that is ok for most hunting in the bush here in NZ

300 metres target would be fun

Necking down and expanding the mouth. Used to do this when forming the 7 mm TCU from .223 brass. Fireformed the result. Shot about 20 times before needing replacement.