The firearm thread

[Wolf]

It does look like a nice rifle. Unfortunately I am not a fan of the .270. Always found it a bit too hard a recoiling rifle to shoot comfortably. I have been looking at .243 and 7mm-08.
Never fired a 7mm-08, definitely like .243 cal.

[Drunken Monkey]

Awww stink, going to be in Dubai/Oman then, not back until the 10th...

[Expert]

Sorry to change the subject.

I've just bought some old .303 hollow points and they came in a box marked 'true flite" and apparently made by H Dutton & Co Ltd of Auckland.
Anybody know who they are or were? I googled it but nothing came up.

[Swoop]

a box marked 'true flite" and apparently made by H Dutton & Co Ltd of Auckland.
Anybody know who they are or were? I googled it but nothing came up.
Dutton was based in an industrial unit in Glenfield (Wairau Rd area) and was mainly gunsmithing (iirc!).
He would have imported/repackaged projectiles I suspect (happy to be corrected) but never saw anything like that the times I went there.

[Expert]

That would make sense, I got them from wairau road. Was a big setup or just some dude in a shed? What happened to him? No support for local industry?

[sAsLEX]

<img src=http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1206.snc4/155805_465377336570_623286570_6019370_6501005_n.jp g>

As my little sister put it "Brunette, wranger n blondie nice shot! "

Was helping a farmer down Nelson lakes way and got a few hundred of the buggers on a single hill over a few nights, great way to improve quick shooting and estimating ranges and holdovers!

.308 saw no action though, bush is very dry down there and noisy as hell and our normal haunts were without sign! :(

Was interesting the number of "wranger" and black rabbits in the population.

[Swoop]

Was a big setup or just some dude in a shed? What happened to him? No support for local industry?
It was just a small industrial unit. I have no idea what happened to the company.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Had the bridge mounts on my 303 done there. Good workmanship. Pity they closed down.

[freedom-wedge]

Dutton was based in an industrial unit in Glenfield (Wairau Rd area) and was mainly gunsmithing (iirc!).
He would have imported/repackaged projectiles I suspect (happy to be corrected) but never saw anything like that the times I went there.

I think this is relativley true, although a licence was granted for the operation to load certain commercial and military rounds, if the original poster reads this can you post the details of the head stamp, the letters or numbers on the bottom of the brass case,s and are they all the same in the box ??. Pretty sure they will go bang and do whats expected though. Cartridge collectors will be interested if the box and rounds are original.

pedro

[Expert]

The original rounds must have been used up and now the box has been used for storing spare/odd rounds. It's full of odd fmj .303 british rounds, mostly cac, s&b and some others i've never heard of.
despite being a pohm, I like to support local industry where i can, and would rather have bought off a local manufacturer if i could, so reallly that's why i was wondering where they were. would dutton have been repackaging/reloading rounds from the colonial ammunition co. old stock?
There are some .303 true hollow points, which i've never seen before, marked KF 67.
Some cac soft points, perhaps reloaded milsurp stuff?
The KF hollowpoints have a thicker base which makes the bolt a tight closing fit in my No4.

[Swoop]

There are some .303 true hollow points, which i've never seen before, marked KF 67.

KF (http://cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm): Kirkee Arsenal, Poona-3, Kirkee, India.

[freedom-wedge]

KF (http://cartridgecollectors.org/headstampcodes.htm): Kirkee Arsenal, Poona-3, Kirkee, India.

And quite possibly coorosive ha, there was always the faint waft of curry powder on detonation if I recall, grins , just a new slant on curry in a hurry

[Mr Merde]

http://www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org/howa_ranchland.jpg

Howa Ranchland.

Placed an order for this rifle. 7mm-08.

Delivery due at the end of Jan

Liked the feel of the stock. Very tactile. Recoil pad is very soft and should soak up what there is of the 7mm.

Barrel is supposedly 20 inches long but could be a little shorter. Light to carry but not a ultra long range shooter.

Optics arent great but servicable ( Nikko Stirling 3-10x42).

looking at getting a suppressor for this from Gunworks (about $400 fitted) that will only add 5" to the length of the rifle.

Alan, very interested in .243. I'll be in contact.

Chris

[The Pastor]

http://www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org/howa_ranchland.jpg

Howa Ranchland.

Placed an order for this rifle. 7mm-08.

Delivery due at the end of Jan

Liked the feel of the stock. Very tactile. Recoil pad is very soft and should soak up what there is of the 7mm.

Barrel is supposedly 20 inches long but could be a little shorter. Light to carry but not a ultra long range shooter.

Optics arent great but servicable ( Nikko Stirling 3-10x42).

looking at getting a suppressor for this from Gunworks (about $400 fitted) that will only add 5" to the length of the rifle.

Alan, very interested in .243. I'll be in contact.

Chris

you little beauty!

now just gotta cut back on the pies, booze and fags so you're able to walk to the deer :D

or buy a helihunt pass :D

[Mr Merde]

you little beauty!

That weekend reignited my love of rifles and of hunting. i know i was knackered but I really did enjoy it.

This rifle only weighs 6lbs + scope so it will be light to carry. Shorter barrel will lose some distance but will be fast to shoulder and to lead the target.

Chris

[The Pastor]

That weekend reignited my love of rifles and of hunting. i know i was knackered but I really did enjoy it.

This rifle only weighs 6lbs + scope so it will be light to carry. Shorter barrel will lose some distance but will be fast to shoulder and to lead the target.

Chris

Yeah looks very good.

[Indiana_Jones]

Nice looking rifle Chris, the same one I believe I've been eyeing up

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Nice looking rifle Chris, the same one I believe I've been eyeing up

-Indy

Probably.

Had a lovely tacky feel to the stock. Not to everyones taste but felt very comfortable to me. Recoil pad was very soft. Had a good look at one inb the shop that was chambered for .243 (already sold). It shouldered well. The bolt was smooth and positive. not too sure how well it shoots but Howa do make their rifles for Weatherby and I already have one of those in .223..

Not overly impressed with the scope but it will do until i can afford better.

Once i have it I will have a go at accurising it. ie bedding the action, free floating the barrel, making sure all is running smoothly and getting the muzzle crowned. Then i will get the suppressor for it.

hopefully i caqn make the rifle as accurate as possible to make up for my shortcommings as a rifleman.

Chris

[carver]

just to cut in...
I have a TOZ model 78..
running CCI subs, the bolt feels fucking tight to close.
Running Mini mag, it is sweet, and with winchester subs too.
What is up with CCI subs then?

[Drunken Monkey]

My CCI subs don't cycle properly in the Ruger 10-22, they seem to be a bit 'sticky'. Slightly different dimension or material perhaps?

And I bought a whole brick instead of one box because 'everyone' on the 'internet' said they were 'the shit' when it came to sub-sonic .22's for semi-autos :(

[Drunken Monkey]

http://www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org/howa_ranchland.jpg

Howa Ranchland.
...


It looks pretty nice and they're a good price. Might get one in .308 if I can't find a Remington 700 for the right price.



Alan, very interested in .243. I'll be in contact.

Chris

Yep, as per pm, see you fellas when I get back.

[Mr Merde]

It looks pretty nice and they're a good price. Might get one in .308 if I can't find a Remington 700 for the right price.



Yep, as per pm, see you fellas when I get back.

Hayes and associates in carterton can get remington 700 package in calibre of your choice I have tonight been told.

www.hayesandassociates.co.nz (http://www.hayesandassociates.co.nz)

[carver]

My CCI subs don't cycle properly in the Ruger 10-22, they seem to be a bit 'sticky'. Slightly different dimension or material perhaps?

And I bought a whole brick instead of one box because 'everyone' on the 'internet' said they were 'the shit' when it came to sub-sonic .22's for semi-autos :(

they cycle fine in my 10/22!

got it set up for subs?

[Drunken Monkey]

they cycle fine in my 10/22!

got it set up for subs?

Probably not, do I need to modify something?

[carver]

Probably not, do I need to modify something?

i think some spring shit

[jono035]

CCI subs are slightly oversize on the bullet, stingers have a slightly longer OAL.

Both mean they play merry hell in rifles with tight chambers, like the target barrel on that 10/22, Alan, which has the rifling cut so that the bullet is seated into the lands when chambered.

I seem to recall shooting some Winchester subsonics through that rifle with no problems at all. I never really used it with a suppressor, though, because it did some slightly odd things to the cycling of the action and left a trail of smoke curling out of the action after each shot.

I use CCI subs in my bolt action and I've always been 100% happy with them.

Failure to feed is normally the rifle not liking the ammo. Failure to eject is normally the recoil spring is too hard or the bolt is too heavy. Changing either will make the rifle perform better with lower energy ammo, normally the springs are swapped out.

[Drunken Monkey]

Cheers mate, that makes a lot of sense. The cci subs are tight to chamber, but if loaded ok, they fire and eject no problem.

[Wolf]

http://www.unifiedsportsmenpa.org/howa_ranchland.jpg

Howa Ranchland.

Placed an order for this rifle. 7mm-08.

etc
Farking NOIICE!

Sounds like a sweet firearm, Chris. Light and quick/easy to shoulder sounds like a winner to me.

[sAsLEX]

I use Winchester Super X subs in my Target 10/22 with no issue or modification.

Yet to get a suppressor for it though.

[jono035]

I use Winchester Super X subs in my Target 10/22 with no issue or modification.

Yet to get a suppressor for it though.

Have you tried CCI subs? It'd be interesting to see if you had the same problem. I think it can be pretty variable by the manufacturer of the target barrel, mostly due to whether the bullet is engraved into the rifling when the round is chambered or not. I don't think the ruger factory bull barrels do this, while the green mountain and some other aftermarket ones do. Can't remember what make yours was.

Alan: Yeah, that sounds exactly like my experience with them in that rifle. If you force the bolt home, they fire and eject nicely. Stingers will never chamber fully because I think it is actually trying to engrave the damn casing.

[scumdog]

Failure to feed is normally the rifle not liking the ammo. Failure to eject is normally the recoil spring is too hard or the bolt is too heavy. Changing either will make the rifle perform better with lower energy ammo, normally the springs are swapped out.

Yep, my 'shorty' Gevarm has a section inside the bolt that can be turned around to provide less main-spring pressure for sub-sonic ammo - which I use in it exclusively.

Always fires - but if you know how that model of Gevarm functions you wouldn't be surprised.

[jono035]

Yep, my 'shorty' Gevarm has a section inside the bolt that can be turned around to provide less main-spring pressure for sub-sonic ammo - which I use in it exclusively.

Always fires - but if you know how that model of Gevarm functions you wouldn't be surprised.

That's a pretty neat trick... Hell of a lot nicer than having to swap out the bolt or springs, means you could do it in the field too, if needed, I guess.

Edit: Just had a little bit of a read about the Gevarm, sounds like a neat little toy to have around. I've never heard of a semi-auto .22lr that fires from an open bolt. Must make the action ridiculously simple. Could be a neat project as a ground-up build, really...

Of course, being that it fires from an open bolt, it takes about 5 minutes and a file to turn it into a full-auto... Yikes.

[The Pastor]

Gevarm .22lr looks super easy to convert to full auto, according to the googles......

[sAsLEX]

Yep, my 'shorty' Gevarm has a section inside the bolt that can be turned around to provide less main-spring pressure for sub-sonic ammo - which I use in it exclusively.

Always fires - but if you know how that model of Gevarm functions you wouldn't be surprised.

Dad has one of these at the bach. Very hard to do this change?

I have had it loose a few rounds at once, and a mate had one down home that would often empty a mag!

At least it's easy to see rounds remaining, then you don't have to count!

[scumdog]

Gevarm .22lr looks super easy to convert to full auto, according to the googles......

Apparently.....:whistle::shutup:

[Wolf]

Apparently.....:whistle::shutup:
And the old Sterling .22lr M-16 lookalike could easily be converted to full auto by poking something like a match or a small nail into a hole on the side of the receiver - Or So I've Been Told.

Personally, I don't see the point in full auto except for having a bit of fun. It's practical uses are extremely limited and it wastes a lot of ammunition, even if used against large groups. Fine for convincing people to keep theiir heads down - which effectively makes it an expensive substitute for shuriken - or intimidating people but in most respects, setting your firearm to empty a 30-round mag in 3 seconds is kinda stupid unless your quarry is hidden somewhere in the bushes and you really don't give a rat's arse who or what you hit.

If you're being overrun by Zombies, spraying out 30 rounds to hit (not necessarily incapacitate) 5 of them is probably only going to shorten the time it takes to run out of ammo...

Movies invariably screw up their portrayal of the firepower of SMGs - if they depicted them realistically (like running out of ammo after a 3-second burst rather than after six 5-second bursts) the audience would be saying "Man, that's GHEY!"

But full auto is FUN - OSIBT :innocent:

[Drunken Monkey]

... Fine for convincing people to keep theiir heads down - which effectively makes it an expensive substitute for shuriken ...

You can't throw shiruken as far as you can throw bullets, and you can't penetrate as much material. Keeping heads down is a key part of fire-and-maneuvre. In modern NATO warfare, the AR's job is to use that firepower to keep heads down and allow your fire team members to move into a position where they can kill with 1 - 2 shots. Sure, being alone with a SAW set to Rock & Roll probably isn't the best use of ammo, but you have to look at full auto in the context of what it is designed for - as only one of several components at the disposal of your fire teams.

...in saying all that, you're hardly going to use a fully auto .22 as part of your fire team (unless you're desperate). That's just more of a proof of technology thing than anything else.

[Mr Merde]

...in saying all that, you're hardly going to use a fully auto .22 as part of your fire team (unless you're desperate). That's just more of a proof of technology thing than anything else.

Check out the American 180 machine Gun, Military firearm chambered for .22.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:-rTae5nYxRp9DM:http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/am180-1.jpg&t=1

Supposedly very very accMagazine
Capacity: Up to 275 rounds
Rate of Fire: 1500 rounds per minute



urate.

[Expert]

I'd be really annoyed if someone was shooting that thing at me.




.

[Expert]

It's amazing that little round has the power to operate the mechanism to chamber the next round and still have enough puff left to actually penetrate anything tougher than a tomato at 20 paces.

[carver]

Yep, my 'shorty' Gevarm has a section inside the bolt that can be turned around to provide less main-spring pressure for sub-sonic ammo - which I use in it exclusively.

Always fires - but if you know how that model of Gevarm functions you wouldn't be surprised.

ya know the TOZ 78 i got has a adjustable trigger weight and creep?
cost me $330 new!

go the ruskies!

[Wolf]

It's amazing that little round has the power to operate the mechanism to chamber the next round and still have enough puff left to actually penetrate anything tougher than a tomato at 20 paces.
.22lr semi autos have been managing that feat for a large number of years. And the graveyards have more than enough occupants who underestimated the lethality of the "little .22" (or were killed by others who underestimated its killing power and range).

Frankly, I'd be rather "annoyed" if anyone fired any firearm at me - and also seeking cover and trying to work out the most effective way to get myself completely out of danger.

If anyone pointed a firearm at me, I would not be worrying about what calibre it is or engaging in ignorant mind-wanks like "it's only a .22", I'd be viewing it as a clear and present danger with a good likelihood of death or at least serious injury. Despite what the movies depict, lethality is not directly related to bore diameter, projectile mass or powder charge - as always, placement of the hit is important and I'd be wanting to make sure that nothing is placed on me.

[Wolf]

You can't throw shiruken as far as you can throw bullets, and you can't penetrate as much material. Keeping heads down is a key part of fire-and-maneuvre. In modern NATO warfare, the AR's job is to use that firepower to keep heads down and allow your fire team members to move into a position where they can kill with 1 - 2 shots. Sure, being alone with a SAW set to Rock & Roll probably isn't the best use of ammo, but you have to look at full auto in the context of what it is designed for - as only one of several components at the disposal of your fire teams.

...in saying all that, you're hardly going to use a fully auto .22 as part of your fire team (unless you're desperate). That's just more of a proof of technology thing than anything else.
Meh, Fire Teams. What happened to the Golden Age of Single Combat and Heroism? :devil2:

I'm hardly likely to be in a fire team engaging in NATO fire and manoeuvre style combat, either.

[Drunken Monkey]

Meh, Fire Teams. What happened to the Golden Age of Single Combat and Heroism? :devil2:

It died with chivalry, about 100 years ago...



I'm hardly likely to be in a fire team engaging in NATO fire and manoeuvre style combat, either.

Never played airsoft or paintball? Tactic still works, even with those. (Actually you don't even need ammo, people duck their heads when they hear the gas escaping from the gun).


And yes, .22 does get underestimated. It is (supposedly) the ammunition of choice for professional killers. The Stirling .22 has the dubious honour of being used in the most armed robberies in Australia. I think that's probably driven by economics than anything else though...

[Wolf]

Never played airsoft or paintball? Tactic still works, even with those. (Actually you don't even need ammo, people duck their heads when they hear the gas escaping from the gun).
Play paintball frequently but we use semi-auto to lay down suppressive fire - in fact, our markers are all gravity fed and no response triggers (or similar high rate of fire mechanisms) allowed in our games so they are down at the speed of a real semi auto rifle... about as fast as you can repeatedly pull a normal trigger on a semi-auto rifle or pistol.

Semi-auto seems fine for keeping people's heads down, I note - and you still have stuff left in the hopper/mag afterwards.

I wouldn't say we use proper NATO "fire team" tactics tho', despite having a couple of "Weekend Warriors" in our group. We do lay down suppressive fire for one another when changing positions, tho'.


And yes, .22 does get underestimated. It is (supposedly) the ammunition of choice for professional killers.
Well, it certainly quietens down a lot with a suppressor and subsonic ammo - much more so than a larger calibre. With properly placed shots, the "humble" .22 is a quite sufficiently lethal weapon. And that's before you get nasty and start fucking about with the projectiles. Suppressed, it's a very quiet, discreet lethal weapon.

I get quite steamed when people get on the "it's only a little .22" track - it's that sort of shit that gets people killed or maimed. I'd not want to go shooting with someone who has that sort of attitude.

I was drilled in respect for firearms by two parents who would make a hardened drill sergeant seem like a kindly, soft old gent when it came to the subject of firearms safety.

[sAsLEX]

If you want to know weapons ask the Israelis they seems to know there stuff

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

[Wolf]

If you want to know weapons ask the Israelis they seems to know there stuff

http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm

Hehe.



In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's [sic] original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's [sic] usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then [sic] thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then [sic] intended.


As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon.

Seems they made the classic mistake but at least had the good sense to reassess the situation.

It boils down to: people have died from a single shot from a .22lr and others have survived multiple shots from .45ACP or .308. Nothing's a "guaranteed kill" and nothing's "less than lethal". Respect them all, bear in mind the dangers and maybe you and your hunting buddy will both make it out unharmed.

[Expert]

apparently the little .22 round is thinking mans' the weapon of choice for suicide, probably again driven by economics, but supposedly it has the power to penetrate the skull from underneath, but not the power to exit. instead, it rattles around in your head and scrambles your brain!!
00 buckshot would still be my choice though.

Sorry to put a downer on an otherwise lively discussion ;)

It's still a puny round, it probably wouldn't penetrate a thick coat at 100m.
They aren't allowed on doc land for a good reason, and in a combat situation injuring your oponent is more effective at casing mayhem than killing them.

[scumdog]

apparently the little .22 round is thinking mans' the weapon of choice for suicide, probably again driven by economics, but supposedly it has the power to penetrate the skull from underneath, but not the power to exit. instead, it rattles around in your head and scrambles your brain!!
00 buckshot would still be my choice though.


Seen a through-and through from the side with a .22 in a suicide.(A position fairly close to that Davis Bains old man was meant to have used - but was apparently impossible).

And I have seen a shotgun used twice to the head by a guy who wasn't happy with life..


So there's no 100% accurate way to predict things:blink:

[Wolf]

It's still a puny round, it probably wouldn't penetrate a thick coat at 100m.
No need to remind me never to go shooting with you, son - I'll remember well enough myself.

A one shot kill has been recorded at around 3km - that's twice the "dangerous out to 1500m" printed on the packets of ammo.

Of course, it was a freak, accidental kill of an innocent picnicker by some fucktard who no doubt also thought it couldn't penetrate a heavy coat at 100m.

I'd be interested in hearing what else it is you claim to be an "expert" at, as it patently isn't firearms or ballistics.

[jono035]

No need to remind me never to go shooting with you, son - I'll remember well enough myself.

A one shot kill has been recorded at around 3km - that's twice the "dangerous out to 1500m" printed on the packets of ammo.

Of course, it was a freak, accidental kill of an innocent picnicker by some fucktard who no doubt also thought it couldn't penetrate a heavy coat at 100m.

I'd be interested in hearing what else it is you claim to be an "expert" at, as it patently isn't firearms or ballistics.

Easy, tiger.

I'd be interested to see a reference for that accident? Even the 'hyper-velocity' .22 ammo is around 600m/s, which would be a 5 second flight time. That's a drop of 120m from the barrel line. Also, most of the ballistics calculators put the energy of a standard .22lr round (with me being generous on bullet weight, velocity and BC) at about 20 Joules at 1km out, with the velocity being about 100m/s, which, conveniently is also terminal velocity for a .22lr bullet.

So, that would pretty much assume that the person was hit by the bullet falling directly down at terminal velocity, probably tumbling.

I dunno, man...

[The Pastor]

there is some utter shit talked on here!




















Keep it up!

[Wolf]

Easy, tiger.

I'd be interested to see a reference for that accident? Even the 'hyper-velocity' .22 ammo is around 600m/s, which would be a 5 second flight time. That's a drop of 120m from the barrel line. Also, most of the ballistics calculators put the energy of a standard .22lr round (with me being generous on bullet weight, velocity and BC) at about 20 Joules at 1km out, with the velocity being about 100m/s, which, conveniently is also terminal velocity for a .22lr bullet.

So, that would pretty much assume that the person was hit by the bullet falling directly down at terminal velocity, probably tumbling.

I dunno, man...
I was not told who the people were nor exactly when it took place. It was one of the examples given by our firearms safety officer when I did the course a very large number of years ago.

It was a ricochet off water, he said.

Mr "Expert" is most welcome to test his theory about a "thick coat" stopping a .22 at 100m provided that no one is wearing it at the time.

And he's nowhere near me at the time.

[Expert]

Pull yer head in wolf, if you're this easily wound up you shouldn't be allowed to have a firearm either. And i suppose you actually are a wolf?? Dickhead.

[The Pastor]

Pull yer head in wolf, if you're this easily wound up you shouldn't be allowed to have a firearm either. And i suppose you actually are a wolf?? Dickhead.

I'm glad to see you have gone from self proclaimed expert, to expert. Which begs the question, how do you get qualified as an expert? A self proclaimed one I understand - i.e., a person who has a high opinion of themselves.

I would suggest to you, that the true experts are called experts only by others, and not by themselves.

Then I start to wonder what you're an "expert" in? Knitting? Baking? or perhaps, being a bitch. I would call you an expert in being a bitch. From now on i'll call you bitch expert.

FYI, here is a picture of wolf, at the last kb shoot we did.

http://neswblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/angry_wolf.jpg


p.s Don't take life to seriously!

[Expert]

Easy, tiger.

I'd be interested to see a reference for that accident? Even the 'hyper-velocity' .22 ammo is around 600m/s, which would be a 5 second flight time. That's a drop of 120m from the barrel line. Also, most of the ballistics calculators put the energy of a standard .22lr round (with me being generous on bullet weight, velocity and BC) at about 20 Joules at 1km out, with the velocity being about 100m/s, which, conveniently is also terminal velocity for a .22lr bullet.

So, that would pretty much assume that the person was hit by the bullet falling directly down at terminal velocity, probably tumbling.

I dunno, man...


You're a right clever bugger, aren't you?

[The Pastor]

Do you really have a 1912 bike? that's pretty awesome. GOt a pic of it?

[The Pastor]

You're a right clever bugger, aren't you?

Please don't encourage him, its hard enough understanding what hes talking about as it is :S

[Expert]

I'm glad to see you have gone from self proclaimed expert, to expert. Which begs the question, how do you get qualified as an expert? A self proclaimed one I understand - i.e., a person who has a high opinion of themselves.

I would suggest to you, that the true experts are called experts only by others, and not by themselves.

Then I start to wonder what you're an "expert" in? Knitting? Baking? or perhaps, being a bitch. I would call you an expert in being a bitch. From now on i'll call you bitch expert.

FYI, here is a picture of wolf, at the last kb shoot we did.

http://neswblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/angry_wolf.jpg


p.s Don't take life to seriously!


Unlike most other people on here i don't take myself too seriously and can laugh at myself.

If you break down expert you get two words; ex and spurt.

ex means has-been, and spurt is a drip working under pressure.

[Expert]

Do you really have a 1912 bike? that's pretty awesome. GOt a pic of it?

I took a picture of it when i got it out of the showroom with my trusty old pin-hole camera, but the picture was upside down so i threw it away.

[Expert]

I'm glad to see you have gone from self proclaimed expert, to expert. Which begs the question, how do you get qualified as an expert? A self proclaimed one I understand - i.e., a person who has a high opinion of themselves.

I would suggest to you, that the true experts are called experts only by others, and not by themselves.

Then I start to wonder what you're an "expert" in? Knitting? Baking? or perhaps, being a bitch. I would call you an expert in being a bitch. From now on i'll call you bitch expert.

FYI, here is a picture of wolf, at the last kb shoot we did.

http://neswblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/angry_wolf.jpg


p.s Don't take life to seriously!


Oh yeah, and what qualifies you to be a renegade master??
That is actually a qualification you've earned and isn't self proclaimed?
You lot really are sad.
Perhaps you'd like to be called renegade master of homosexuallity?

[Wolf]

FYI, here is a picture of wolf, at the last kb shoot we did.
Glad you used the one where I was smiling...

[Wolf]

Unlike most other people on here i don't take myself too seriously and can laugh at myself.

compare with:


Pull yer head in wolf, ... Dickhead.

Hmmmm, sounds like you take yourself more seriously than you take firearms safety.

I've cleaned the dust off your dummy, you can have it back after you've calmed down.

[jono035]

Wolf - Pity, I'd be interested to know more about it.

Sounds like one of those things that happened but has probably grown a bit through re-tellings and exaggerations.

I'm heading up north for christmas and taking most of my firearms up so who knows, maybe I'll take a few potshots at a feral coat and see what happens.

Expert: Thanks! It's nice to be appreciated, occasionally.

RM: That photo's a bit old, he's clean shaven now, isn't he?

[Swoop]

apparently the little .22 round is thinking mans' the weapon of choice for suicide, but supposedly it has the power to penetrate the skull from underneath, but not the power to exit. instead, it rattles around in your head and scrambles your brain!
Unfortunately it does not. The tounge is quite a dense item and slows the round down quite a bit.
Having cleaned the blood off of firearm used for a suicide attempt, I can confidently state this.

[sAsLEX]

Unfortunately it does not. The tounge is quite a dense item and slows the round down quite a bit.
Having cleaned the blood off of firearm used for a suicide attempt, I can confidently state this.

If one commits suicide by swallowing the sharp end of a rifle, in what direction are they pointing it if they go through the tongue?

[sAsLEX]

I was not told who the people were nor exactly when it took place. It was one of the examples given by our firearms safety officer when I did the course a very large number of years ago.

It was a ricochet off water, he said.

Mr "Expert" is most welcome to test his theory about a "thick coat" stopping a .22 at 100m provided that no one is wearing it at the time.

And he's nowhere near me at the time.

I know someone who had his sergeant take 4 shots from a 9mm sub machine gun at ~15m range which were stopped by a great coat.

They all said "fuck off you lying prick"

So he went inside got his 9mm, got a woolen pussers blanket, hosed it down and hung it on the line and emptied a magazine in to it.

The rounds did not go through.

[sAsLEX]

They aren't allowed on doc land for a good reason

As people would shoot Keruru with them, oh and possums and ferrets etc...... but we just use broadly applied 1080 for them.....

[Wolf]

I know someone who had his sergeant take 4 shots from a 9mm sub machine gun at ~15m range which were stopped by a great coat.

They all said "fuck off you lying prick"

So he went inside got his 9mm, got a woolen pussers blanket, hosed it down and hung it on the line and emptied a magazine in to it.

The rounds did not go through.
And yet other times, rounds will rip straight through heavy cloth. There are so many factors involved that I would not stake my life on it. Not even a bullet proof jacket is guaranteed to save your life.

Shooting at one wet unsupported blanket is hardly "scientific method" - different conditions may make for completely different results. E.g. dry fabric resting against an object - tailor's dummy or a person's torso - may well be well-and-truly penetrated.

While I would not rely on a .22 to bag a deer, I would not dismiss its ability to do horrific and possibly fatal damage to myself or those around me.

Also wouldn't rely on a greatcoat or a wet blanket to save me from a 9mm SMG, either.

[Wolf]

As people would shoot Keruru with them, oh and possums and ferrets etc...... but we just use broadly applied 1080 for them.....
Don't try using logic against DOC, my friend, that way lies frustration and eventual madness...

[The Pastor]

Oh yeah, and what qualifies you to be a renegade master??
That is actually a qualification you've earned and isn't self proclaimed?
You lot really are sad.
Perhaps you'd like to be called renegade master of homosexuallity?

Yeah, i mastered homosexuality, your father taught me.

[Wolf]

RM: That photo's a bit old, he's clean shaven now, isn't he?
I never look clean-shaven, not even just after I've shaved.

[scumdog]

I know someone who had his sergeant take 4 shots from a 9mm sub machine gun at ~15m range which were stopped by a great coat.

They all said "fuck off you lying prick"

So he went inside got his 9mm, got a woolen pussers blanket, hosed it down and hung it on the line and emptied a magazine in to it.

The rounds did not go through.

A lot of 9mm stuff is pretty weak - espacially older stuff.:yes:

[nseagoon]

I can confidently say that if you shoot at a wet blanket (hanging) with a dragunov at less than 50 metres the bullet wont penetrate. of course that doesn't mean to say if someone wrapped said blanket around themselves and a .22 was shot at it at 50m I'd say it would penetrate.
but I'd rather speculate and not find out for myself

[Mr Merde]

Oh Goodness, I've been offline for 24 hours and all hell has broken loose.

An old chestnut being discussed. Penetration and firepower.

In the American Civil War the most feared wound was fron the humble .22 ,designed by Messrs Smith and Wesson in 1850 and chambered in their revolvers the #1 and the #1 1/2. Not because of the initial damage but because it would move around inside the body due to deflection etc. This made probing for the bullet almost impossible. The .22 is an outside lubricated bullet and picks up masses of grit and dirt in the lube. The wounds with these rounds usually becaqme infected and the person died of infection. The standard .58 calibre ball made a horrendous wound but could be easily probed for and removed.

In fact if you look at the history of the West and the gunfighters, a very large % of them died days after being shot, mostly from infection from outside lubricated bullets.

President Sakarno of Indonesia, in the 60's and 70's had a rifle bullet lodged behind his eyes after being shot by the Japanese during WW2. He lived with this till he died of old age decades afterwards.

Cole Younger of Jesse James fame, survived being shot 11 times by soft lead bullets during the northfield minnesota raid. Ronald Regan survived being shot with a .22 revolver from close distance. The Chinese use the .22 short as a method of execution.

Everything is subjective. I've seen people shot with a single bullet from a .308 and killed instantly and others who have had to have at least another round to stop them. Seen the photos of someone who put a revolver to their head, the barrel was at an angle so the bullet went between skull and skin , followed the skull around and came out the other side without killing the attempted suicide.

As to RM being a shirt lifting brown dirt cowboy I can attest that he isnt but a lot of his boyfriends are.

Merde

[Wolf]

I can confidently say that if you shoot at a wet blanket (hanging) with a dragunov at less than 50 metres the bullet wont penetrate. of course that doesn't mean to say if someone wrapped said blanket around themselves and a .22 was shot at it at 50m I'd say it would penetrate.
but I'd rather speculate and not find out for myself
Anyone got a supply of old blankets and some tailor's dummies or store-window mannequins they don't need? We could also shoot a couple of "heavy jackets" with a variety of rounds at different ranges. Too bad the Onewhero site's no longer available.

It could be something to do at the new range when it's operational - in all seriousness: make some "educational videos" of what common calibres are capable of: similar to that vid we watched with them Shootin' The Fuck Outta Shit With Military Weapons, but geared towards calibres likely to be encountered by the average hunter - small or big game - with a few pistol calibres thrown in for good measure.

If we did a good enough job, we could possibly get it screened on TV.

EDIT: We could also include a section on how self-loading firearms (full- and semi-automatic) work for the benefit of any retards who don't understand the laws of physics, as well. With a special emphasis on Newton's Third Law...

[Mr Merde]

The video we watched was titled

"Deadly Weapons"

It wpould be great to be able to recreate it with a selection of modern firearms but it would take a fair bit of organising and planning.

personelle, targets, firearms, camera equipment etc.

We wouldnt be allowed to regreate the full auto segments of the video i'm guessing nor the bullet proof clothing segment.

[Wolf]

The video we watched was titled

"Deadly Weapons"

It wpould be great to be able to recreate it with a selection of modern firearms but it would take a fair bit of organising and planning.

personelle, targets, firearms, camera equipment etc.

We wouldnt be allowed to regreate the full auto segments of the video i'm guessing nor the bullet proof clothing segment.
I was thinking more like regular hunting weapons from .22lr up vs wet and dry swandris, heavy jackets, blankets and walls such as you might find in the average house or hunter's shack, possibly an old car - something geared more towards the average kiwi hunter/tramper. Half myth-busters (wet blanket on a line), half Deadly Weapons.

No need to actually demonstrate the firepower of full auto. But it'd be nice to actually put in an explanation of how a self-loader works since there's obviously a segment of society that thinks the action of a semi-auto rifle robs vast amounts power from the bullet and makes the projectile less likely to penetrate.

Apparently, to the unschooled, it's amazing that a self-loading .22 can penetrate the skin of a tomato at 10 yards.

[The Pastor]

is it a bad idea to oil bolts?

[Swoop]

If one commits suicide by swallowing the sharp end of a rifle, in what direction are they pointing it if they go through the tongue?
In the case mentioned, the rifle was placed under the chin. Go a short way up from the top of the Adams apple and fire towards the back of the eyes.

[scumdog]

is it a bad idea to oil bolts?
A light wipe is all they need.

[Drunken Monkey]

The video we watched was titled

"Deadly Weapons"

It wpould be great to be able to recreate it with a selection of modern firearms but it would take a fair bit of organising and planning.

personelle, targets, firearms, camera equipment etc.

We wouldnt be allowed to regreate the full auto segments of the video i'm guessing nor the bullet proof clothing segment.

Obviously we all have access to various firearms. I've got a couple of video cameras, and can borrow one of broadcast quality if you want it to look really flash.

You know that site "will it blend?" where the guy will stuff whatever the viewers want into his blender and video it just for laugh - well the other week I was thinking of doing something similar but with a clay thrower. Can't think of a good name though, "will it fly like a clay pigeon" just doesn't have a good ring to it. We could throw a few CDs, plates, hard disk drives, etc.. post 'em up on youtube and take requests for the next outing...

[Drunken Monkey]

Apparently, to the unschooled, it's amazing that a self-loading .22 can penetrate the skin of a tomato at 10 yards.

Speaking of .22's going through stuff and hard drives, .22LR subsonics can go clean through laptop hard drives at 30 meters. That's a flimsy alloy cover, a thin metal disc of some description, then a less flimsy alloy frame then finally through a PCB.

I'll post a pic tomorrow when I'm back in the office.

(and no, for the record it was not me who performed this act)

[Wolf]

Speaking of .22's going through stuff and hard drives, .22LR subsonics can go clean through laptop hard drives at 30 meters.

...

(and no, for the record it was not me who performed this act)
Wouldn't blame you if it was - I'm a professional geek and over the years I've encountered a number of hard drives just askin' to be used for "ballistic testing"...



... the one that crashed and lost a significant chunk of my data, for a start. (And while we're on that topic, the ZIP drive I was using for my data backups at the time could also be used for a bit of ballistic testing as well)

[Wolf]

Can't think of a good name though, "will it fly like a clay pigeon" just doesn't have a good ring to it.
My suggestion: "Seems like a great idea... but will it fly?"

[Drunken Monkey]

http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w177/drunken_monkey6984/For%20Links/DSC00032.jpg

[The Pastor]

anyone know where i can site my rifle in?

[jono035]

anyone know where i can site my rifle in?

No luck with the Deerstalkers range on Sunday, then?

DM: Looks like it didn't fair much better than my wok from the last hurrah at the Onewhero Lunatic Asylum and Shooting Range.

[Drunken Monkey]

It could be something to do at the new range when it's operational - ...


anyone know where i can sight my rifle in?

Is there any more progress on the Ararimu pistol/blackpowder/etc.... place, or has it all fallen through? Anyone got any up to date information?

[The Pastor]

No luck with the Deerstalkers range on Sunday, then?

DM: Looks like it didn't fair much better than my wok from the last hurrah at the Onewhero Lunatic Asylum and Shooting Range.

it pissed down.

[Swoop]

20 December, 2010: The U.S. Army has delivered to troops in Afghanistan, 250 upgrade kits for their M24 bolt-action sniper rifles. These kids converts the M24s to the more powerful XM2010 sniper rifle. This main changed is allowing 7.62mm M24 rifles to fire the .300 Winchester magnum (7.62x67). This is a more powerful round than the NATO 7.62x51 round currently used in the M24. The conversion kit includes a new receiver and barrel, a new scope, a new flash suppressor and a folding buttstock. The XM2010 weighs 8.5 kg (18.7 pounds) and is 1.33 meters (52.2 inches) with the flash suppressor. The conversion of all 3,600 M24s will take five years and will cost about $7,800 per rifle.
Last year, the army ordered 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for its newly modified M24 sniper rifles, as well as similar SOCOMs Mk13 models. The new ammo costs about $1.30 per round. The .300 Winchester magnum ammo is ordered in minimum lots of 56,160 rounds (117 boxes of 480 rounds each). The entire 38.4 million rounds will last a while.

All this is in response to requests from snipers for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 13.6 kg (30 pound) .50 caliber/12.7mm rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). It was felt that the .300 Winchester Magnum gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.

The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The .300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. An improved version of the magnum round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so.

There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 7-9 kg sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to 1,600 meters or more. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Dutch snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. British snipers in Afghanistan are also using the new round, having converted many of their 7.62mm sniper rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.

This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Two years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.

The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifle achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)

The M110 weighs 7.9 kg (17.3 pounds) in combat, and about 32 kg (70 pounds) with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 128 cm (40.5 inch) long rifle can have a 15 cm (six inch) tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.

The M110 will gradually replace some of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed.

[sAsLEX]

New receiver, new barrel, new scope, new butstock........ sounds like a whole new rifle to me and undoubtedly would of been cheaper to ship complete new weapons.

[Wolf]

To all those members of the Onewhero Shooting Club.

On New Years Day it is my sons 20th birthday. His first in NZ

We are holding a party for him in the afternoon onwards.

You are all invited

Jono, Scott, Andrew, Alan (DM), Nigel, Wolf and anyone else whose names I havent mentioned.

BBQ for Jon's venison and nibble food will be laid on. Just bring booze. There is a couple of bunks available and I Have a large internal garage for those too pissed to travel.

Chris
I've organised the time off from minding kids, now I need a location as I'm going to have to organise how to get there - most likely by bus. I suspect I'll be availing myself of the garage as I've got to head up to North Shore the following afternoon.

Got to book the bus in the next couple of days - apparently there are still buses running on the 1st.

[The Pastor]

The M110 weighs 7.9 kg (17.3 pounds) in combat, and about 32 kg (70 pounds) with all components of the system.


lol whut?


also

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/01/m110-ipod-touch-mount.jpg ipod+m110

[Indiana_Jones]

Count me in aye. Been too long since last time.

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Count me in aye. Been too long since last time.

-Indy

there talking about a pissup, not a cross-dressup......

[jono035]

lol whut?


also


Yeah, those iPods turned ballistics computers are a pretty neat idea. From memory, Cheyenne Tactical do a similar setup for the Intervention.

Also, as for weight, they may be including ammo and mags, among other things...

[Indiana_Jones]

there talking about a pissup, not a cross-dressup......

What a shame... :(

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Also, as for weight, they may be including ammo and mags, among other things...


wtf they make the bullets out of? Lead?!

[Wolf]

wtf they make the bullets out of? Lead?!
Errrrm... How can I explain this tactfully?

[Wolf]

Assistance required, please. I've located Chris's place on Google Maps - apparently, they do have maps out there - and I've figured that getting to it may pose some problems.

AFAIK, I can catch a bus to Auckland on New Year's Day - I could possibly even get off at or near Mercer or some such place closer to Chris's house than downtown Auckland.

I will, however, need some assistance getting from [wherever I land up that way] to Chris's place, so if anyone is able to help out in that regard, please let me know.

Also, if there's anyone heading towards North Shore on the 2nd, would it be possible for me to catch a lift in that direction?

Cheers.

Planning to book my ticket on Thursday and would like to know by that time where would be the best place to get off the bus.

[Mr Merde]

Best place to get off would be the bombay services. We can arrange a lift from there to here. its only about 10 min away.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

sweet as, if you do that then I'll take the car down so I can give you a lift up to the shore or I'll work something out with RM

-Indy

[Wolf]

Cheers for that, guys.

Looking forward to a great time - the start of my "week off".

[sAsLEX]

wtf they make the bullets out of? Lead?!

My .308 in its case is 18kg.

[The Pastor]

sweet as, if you do that then I'll take the car down so I can give you a lift up to the shore or I'll work something out with RM

-Indy

Im not going

[Wolf]

Im not going
That's a pity.

[Indiana_Jones]

Sweet as, I'll get in touch with you Wolf a little closer to the time

-Indy

[Wolf]

Sweet as, I'll get in touch with you Wolf a little closer to the time

-Indy
Cool as. Thanks.

[The Pastor]

http://www.risawn.com/blog4/santa1.jpg

Merry Christmas!

[jono035]

Forgot the damn bolt for my possum hunting rifle so my dad managed to scavenge an old .22 off one of our neighbours. It turned out to be a really rusty old open-bolt Gevarm, funnily enough.

Doesn't have a mag though, so I've managed to bash the hell out of the mag for my Stirling bolt action so that it'll fit, still doesn't quite feed perfectly because it's a different feed angle.

Neat little gun, slightly heavy trigger but really simple design and looks like it should keep working perfectly pretty much til the end of time.

I also didn't realise that they're takedown rifles, which means they're pretty much useless for use with a scope. Even with the mounting screws tightened up as much as I dare, it has enough movement in the barrel that the point of impact was shifting +/- 4" at 25m even as I was trying to zero the scope.

So, long eye relief scope mounted to the barrel or using a laser sight on a barrel clamp would be the way to go... Might see if the guy is willing to sell it, could be an amusing toy.

[jono035]

Bought a Venturini .22 rifle instead, which appears to be an Argentinian copy of the Gevarm A3/A6. These have a fixed barrel rather than being takedown rifles, so a bit more appropriate for anything I'm likely to use it for.

The lower receiver casting is broken around where the mag well is, but it's such a simple piece that I can repair it with a plate and some epoxy (similar to what my Stirling bolt-action needed, goddamn muck metal castings).

I quite like the idea for using it as a hunting/possuming gun. I'm not a big fan of relying on safeties, so the idea of being able to just drop the mag out and have the rifle be 100% safe is quite nice. It's a similar idea to the hold-open lever I was contemplating for the 10/22.

[scumdog]

Bought a Venturini .22 rifle instead, which appears to be an Argentinian copy of the Gevarm A3/A6. These have a fixed barrel rather than being takedown rifles, so a bit more appropriate for anything I'm likely to use it for.

The lower receiver casting is broken around where the mag well is, but it's such a simple piece that I can repair it with a plate and some epoxy (similar to what my Stirling bolt-action needed, goddamn muck metal castings).

I quite like the idea for using it as a hunting/possuming gun. I'm not a big fan of relying on safeties, so the idea of being able to just drop the mag out and have the rifle be 100% safe is quite nice. It's a similar idea to the hold-open lever I was contemplating for the 10/22.

It was a long time ago but a mate of mine had an Argentinian copy of a Gevarm and it stopped firing from time to time - turns out the 'firing-pin' had hammered a groove into the rear of the barrel:shit: hence the mis-fires.

So another mate FILED down the rear of the barrel to eliminate the 'groove'!

It might give you a clue as to the quality of material used to make the rifle.

And yes, the open-bolt system is very safe:
Bolt shut? - it won't fire
Bolt open? - you can see if there's (a) a magazine there, (b) if there's any ammo in it (c) if there's somehow a round in the breech.:yes:

CAUTION: Hypothetically if you had the bolt shut and a full magazine in place and slammed the butt down on a hard surface it COULD cause the bolt to fly back but not far enough to engage the sear, this would allow it to fly forwards, strip a round out of the mag, chamber it and fire it - who knows where!

Stens operate a similar system and it has happened with them to guys making parachute drops.

[Mr Merde]

SSANZ Newsletter December 2010.
A Tale of Two Accidents
The accidental fatal night-time shooting of trainee teacher Rosemary Ives by a hunter spotlighting round the Turangi D.oC campsite in late October is just one of a number of preventable accidental deaths that have occurred over the past couple of years.
The fact that Andrew Mears, the young family man who fired the fatal shot is both remorseful and responsible enough to accept blame for his actions reflects well on him. The fact he pleaded guilty to the upgraded (and very serious) charge of manslaughter and accepts that he will almost inevitably receive a jail sentence shows courage. Most importantly, because he is a productive member of society, no matter what sentence the court imposes he will impose a far greater sentence on himself through a lifetime of guilt, regret, sadness and shame for his split-second of carelessness and irresponsibility.
We also however need to look beyond the emotive headlines and vengeful comments on various blogs. We need to ask ourselves whether police and Crown Law upgraded the original charge of reckless use of a firearm to manslaughter because of perceived media pressure and public opinion at the time rather than for any good legal reason. If that is the case, then it suggests New Zealand no longer has a neutral police force that serves and respects the law but one willing to be selective in enforcing the law should this appear expedient,
To see whether this is true, let us compare the accidental shooting of Rosemary Ives at Turangi with the shooting of 17 year old courier driver Halatau Kianamanu Naitoko by an unidentified police officer in January 2009.
In this case, far from quickly accepting liability, police hierarchy (who had the true facts within hours) almost immediately started to muddy the waters in an attempt to deflect attention and blame away from their officers. Greg O’Connor of the Police Association, who would also have been informed of the true facts virtually immediately, went even further and claimed that "police were doing their job protecting the public”. Quite how he believes Mr Naitoko was “protected” is unclear.
So while Andrew Mears quickly pleaded guilty and his sentencing early in the New Year will bring closure of a sort to the family of Rosemary Ives, how have our police and justice systems performed for the family of Halatau Naitoko?
It took over a year (until February 2010) for the so called Independent Police Conduct Authority to complete their investigation into the shooting. It will not release its findings until December, probably timing the release to perfection for just before Christmas.
Meanwhile the Coroners inquest in Auckland is almost complete, having been delayed until after the IPCA had completed its investigation. Coroner Gordon Matenga reserved his findings at the inquest in Auckland Coroner's Court in March, because
the police evidence about the shooting raised many questions.(our italics) And in an unusual move, he asked former Inspector Neville Matthews to review police statements about the Halatau case and to report back to the Coroner's Court on December 20.
One conclusion that could be drawn from this is that police were either caught out misinforming the coroner or there were so many inconsistencies in the evidence presented by them that it rendered it unreliable.
In fact, Halatau’s mother was correct when she said that her son had done nothing wrong. She could not see it as an “accident” because her son was working, he had a right to be on the road and it was the actions of police that cost her son his life. What is also clear is that after hearing the evidence at the Coroner's inquest, Mr Naitoko's family want police held legally accountable.
The Naitoko family's lawyer is now on record as saying they are likely to sue police once the inquest into Mr Naitoko's death is complete. He said it was even possible the coroner conducting the inquest would recommend the officer who fired the fatal shot be prosecuted for manslaughter. He was also correct in pointing out that the fatal shooting was done by one of two members of the armed offenders squad who, he would have thought, would have been far more experienced. .
This is because firstly, there is a perfectly reasonable public expectation that armed police be properly trained and competent both in the safe use of firearms and in avoiding innocent loss of life.
Secondly, in a democracy the shooting of an innocent citizen by an armed police officer is the greatest transgression that police can commit. So whenever this happens, the facts need to be arrived at quickly in an open court because that is the minimum accountability required to maintain public confidence in both the police and the judiciary.
Thirdly, all firearms owners have to demonstrate they have learnt the Arms Code before being granted a firearms licence. Rule 4 is quite straightforward- “IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET. Never fire until you are absolutely certain.
There should be no difference between what police require of law abiding firearms licence holders and what they require of their own officers. In both the Turangi and NW motorway incidents the shooters failed (for whatever reason) to properly identify their target. Yet the same police force that very quickly charged Andrew Mears with careless use of a firearm and then manslaughter have for almost two years ignored the fact that their own officer was guilty of exactly the same error. In doing so they have ignored their strict obligation to enforce the law without fear or favour and have demeaned both the memory and the family of the young man their officer killed.
If Andrew Mears is sentenced to prison but the police officer who shot and killed 17 year old courier driver Halatau Naitoko escapes with nothing more than a blot on his service record, then the police will have escaped from effective legal accountability and become virtually above the law.
If the IPCA has indeed simply accepted the police (and Police Association lawyer’s) version of events and is simply waiting to release its report at a time when the media are least likely to pick up on its findings, then we are seeing a dangerous travesty of justice playing out before our eyes.
One of the fundamental legal and political/constitutional principles that defines and protects a free society and its citizens is the concept of “one law for all”. This must mean that no one individual or group, no matter how wealthy or influential, is above the law.
Who watches the watchers?

[jono035]

It was a long time ago but a mate of mine had an Argentinian copy of a Gevarm and it stopped firing from time to time - turns out the 'firing-pin' had hammered a groove into the rear of the barrel:shit: hence the mis-fires.

So another mate FILED down the rear of the barrel to eliminate the 'groove'!

It might give you a clue as to the quality of material used to make the rifle.

And yes, the open-bolt system is very safe:
Bolt shut? - it won't fire
Bolt open? - you can see if there's (a) a magazine there, (b) if there's any ammo in it (c) if there's somehow a round in the breech.:yes:

CAUTION: Hypothetically if you had the bolt shut and a full magazine in place and slammed the butt down on a hard surface it COULD cause the bolt to fly back but not far enough to engage the sear, this would allow it to fly forwards, strip a round out of the mag, chamber it and fire it - who knows where!

Stens operate a similar system and it has happened with them to guys making parachute drops.

Interesting... I'll make sure to take the mag out before parachuting then :D

Don't know about the quality of the materials but the receiver is a steel tube rather than the aluminium casting of the Gevarm I looked at means it should hold up a little bit better, hopefully. I'll definitely take a look at the barrel and see if it has worn a groove at all.

Still, it doesn't owe me much if it does crap out.

[Mr Merde]

Not on topic but I talk to you lot so I thought I would share the news.

Last week a firm called me up and asked me to come for an interview. They wanted me last week but this wasnt convienient to me so it was scheduled for yesterday.

I went to the interview and sat through the talking bit and the test. Took 1 1/2 hours altogether.

Just had a phone call from the manager who interviewed me and they want me to come in tomorrow for a meeting with the VP of the company.

Position is as a "Senior Support Engineer" for a US company. Starting wage is 10 k more than I earn now plus medical and dental. Lots of potential for advancement and possible overseas work.

I was supprised they came back to me so soon.

Only downside is that I will have to commute to the Viaduct. That will knock off about 5k a year for travelling expenses.

As the topic says. Keep your fingers crossed. I will be in central Auckland for the interview at 10am.

Merde

[jono035]

Not on topic but I talk to you lot so I thought I would share the news.

Last week a firm called me up and asked me to come for an interview. They wanted me last week but this wasnt convienient to me so it was scheduled for yesterday.

I went to the interview and sat through the talking bit and the test. Took 1 1/2 hours altogether.

Just had a phone call from the manager who interviewed me and they want me to come in tomorrow for a meeting with the VP of the company.

Position is as a "Senior Support Engineer" for a US company. Starting wage is 10 k more than I earn now plus medical and dental. Lots of potential for advancement and possible overseas work.

I was supprised they came back to me so soon.

Only downside is that I will have to commute to the Viaduct. That will knock off about 5k a year for travelling expenses.

As the topic says. Keep your fingers crossed. I will be in central Auckland for the interview at 10am.

Merde

Nice, congrats. Sounds pretty good. Best thing to do for getting into the city is push for flexible work hours. Starting/finishing an hour earlier than everyone else has some huge advantages...

[Indiana_Jones]

Good luck Chris, let us know how you get on aye.

Also thanks again for the party and breakfast.

-Indy

[Wolf]

Not on topic but I talk to you lot so I thought I would share the news.

Last week a firm called me up and asked me to come for an interview. They wanted me last week but this wasnt convienient to me so it was scheduled for yesterday.

I went to the interview and sat through the talking bit and the test. Took 1 1/2 hours altogether.

Just had a phone call from the manager who interviewed me and they want me to come in tomorrow for a meeting with the VP of the company.

Position is as a "Senior Support Engineer" for a US company. Starting wage is 10 k more than I earn now plus medical and dental. Lots of potential for advancement and possible overseas work.

I was supprised they came back to me so soon.

Only downside is that I will have to commute to the Viaduct. That will knock off about 5k a year for travelling expenses.

As the topic says. Keep your fingers crossed. I will be in central Auckland for the interview at 10am.

Merde
All the best with it, Chris. Keeping my fingers crossed for ya. Many thanks to you and Sharry for your hospitality and a great, relaxing start to 2011.

Also: many thanks to Indy for the lift up to Albany.

[jono035]

Went for a wander earlier today bought a Nikko Stirling LaserKing 3-9x42 scope. It's pretty nice really and ended up costing $150. Haven't had a muck around with the laser yet, but the scope feels quite solidly built and looks bright and clear. Only real annoyance is the target turrets which, while being nice to use to zero the scope, look like they might be a little exposed for bush bashing. They've got good meaty locking collars that should keep the settings correct though.

Have mounted it on the Venturini semi auto in order to test out how accurate the little rifle is. At 25m was getting 15-20mm groups from a rest straight off, pretty sure it's capable of quite a lot better, too. Seemed to have no problem with both the cheap federal value pack high velocity ammo and the CCI subsonics that I fed it, both with similar accuracy although slightly different POI. Will have to get the barrel threaded, now.

Also blew out the cobwebs of the .44 revolver and the 9mm.

Mounted a cheap aimpoint scope that I bought from china on the .22 target pistol, too. Getting 2" groups with that at 25m now quite reliably, even though my eyesight doesn't suit these scopes well. It's a pity we're not allowed to hunt with handguns, that'd be fine for bunnies and possums.

[The Pastor]

you're also sposed to get doc permits for hunting too.........

[Uber]

Hey Chris,

Send me a PM with your current email address - been trying to contact you!

Cheers,

Adam.


Not on topic but I talk to you lot so I thought I would share the news.

Last week a firm called me up and asked me to come for an interview. They wanted me last week but this wasnt convienient to me so it was scheduled for yesterday.

I went to the interview and sat through the talking bit and the test. Took 1 1/2 hours altogether.

Just had a phone call from the manager who interviewed me and they want me to come in tomorrow for a meeting with the VP of the company.

Position is as a "Senior Support Engineer" for a US company. Starting wage is 10 k more than I earn now plus medical and dental. Lots of potential for advancement and possible overseas work.

I was supprised they came back to me so soon.

Only downside is that I will have to commute to the Viaduct. That will knock off about 5k a year for travelling expenses.

As the topic says. Keep your fingers crossed. I will be in central Auckland for the interview at 10am.

Merde

[SMOKEU]

Does anyone here know of any good public places near Christchurch to do a bit of target shooting with a .22LR? I'm not talking about rifle ranges, just the Waimak river or something like that.

[sAsLEX]

Does anyone here know of any good public places near Christchurch to do a bit of target shooting with a .22LR? I'm not talking about rifle ranges, just the Waimak river or something like that.

Just remember the little .22 still has legs out over 2k so ensure you have a decent stop bank!

[SMOKEU]

Just remember the little .22 still has legs out over 2k so ensure you have a decent stop bank!

Yeah, I always keep that in mind. Safety first, kids!

[Wolf]

Just remember the little .22 still has legs out over 2k so ensure you have a decent stop bank!
Or a wet thick coat or a tomato to stop the buggers :devil2:

[jono035]

Or a wet thick coat or a tomato to stop the buggers :devil2:

Oh good god... :facepalm:

[doc]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/0...mb-in-sex-toy/

WASECA, Minn. (WCCO) — A Waseca man is accused of planting an explosive device inside a sex toy intended for one of his ex-girlfriends.

According to the criminal complaint, 37-year-old Terry Allen Lester has been charged with felony counts of creating an explosive device and making terroristic threats.

The incident was reported on New Year’s Day. Authorities said Lester had been staying with the apparent intended victim and another woman.

He had been forced to leave the apartment by the landlord but left behind bags, one of which contained a container marked “Christmas Gifts.”

Lester allegedly mentioned to one of the two roommates his intentions, so they reported their suspicions about the bags to police.

The criminal complaint says police found a sex toy inside the package that had been modified with gun powder and buck shot, which were connected to a trigger inside the battery port.

Authorities believe Lester planned on giving the sex toy to one of three women he had previously been involved with. Materials were found suggesting he intended to make two other similar devices.

Lester has been taken into custody and faces up to 10 years in jail if convicted.

[Drunken Monkey]

Does anyone have for sale or know of someone who may be interested in selling a US M6 Bayonet?

[scumdog]

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/0...mb-in-sex-toy/

WASECA, Minn. (WCCO) — A Waseca man is accused of planting an explosive device inside a sex toy intended for one of his ex-girlfriends.

According to the criminal complaint, 37-year-old Terry Allen Lester has been charged with felony counts of creating an explosive device and making terroristic threats.

The incident was reported on New Year’s Day. Authorities said Lester had been staying with the apparent intended victim and another woman.

He had been forced to leave the apartment by the landlord but left behind bags, one of which contained a container marked “Christmas Gifts.”

Lester allegedly mentioned to one of the two roommates his intentions, so they reported their suspicions about the bags to police.

The criminal complaint says police found a sex toy inside the package that had been modified with gun powder and buck shot, which were connected to a trigger inside the battery port.

Authorities believe Lester planned on giving the sex toy to one of three women he had previously been involved with. Materials were found suggesting he intended to make two other similar devices.

Lester has been taken into custody and faces up to 10 years in jail if convicted.

Frikkin' gun owners...

[jono035]

Frikkin' gun owners...

nowhere there did it say he owned a gun ;) buckshot and gunpowder, but no gun...

[The Pastor]

nowhere there did it say he owned a gun ;) buckshot and gunpowder, but no gun...

but they were installed in a cylinder........... with a trigger......

[jono035]

but they were installed in a cylinder........... with a trigger......

I didn't see anything about a cylinder and they charged him with creating an explosive device...

[Wolf]

but they were installed in a cylinder........... with a trigger......


I didn't see anything about a cylinder and they charged him with creating an explosive device...
It's a sex toy, the assumption on RM's part was that it was cylindrical.

I was going to make a comment on that, but I'll leave that to other posters...

[Indiana_Jones]

where can I buy one from?!

-Indy

[jono035]

where can I buy one from?!

-Indy

www.intimategadgets.com

[The Pastor]

oh you lot can go and get &*^*#ed

[Indiana_Jones]

oh you lot can go and get &*^*#ed

That's the idea....

-Indy

[SMOKEU]

Are recoil pads worth getting for a 12g, or is it simply a matter of HTFU?

[The Pastor]

are recoil pads worth getting for a 12g, or is it simply a matter of htfu?

htfu .

[Wolf]

Are recoil pads worth getting for a 12g, or is it simply a matter of HTFU?
It's probably a matter of preference and what No. shot you wish to use. Out at Onewhero one day, Chris gave me a great demonstration of how changing the shot size affects perceived recoil...

Could'a' done with a recoil pad that day...

My personal take is "why take punishment if you don't have to?" No one's going around handing out medals for "manning up" to things that detract from your enjoyment of the sport.

[jono035]

Are recoil pads worth getting for a 12g, or is it simply a matter of HTFU?

Depends on you and the shotgun. If you're finding it uncomfortable, a recoil pad is a shitload easier than trying to correct a major flinch later down the track.

Light shotgun, skinny guy, firing heavy loads, wearing a light shirt, firing lots of rounds in one sitting, it all adds up.

Worry about what is going to make you enjoy it more first, the rest comes afterwards.

[SMOKEU]

Sweet, recoil pad it is then.

[The Pastor]

its one of those things you can decide on after you've fired the shotgun...

[scumdog]

Are recoil pads worth getting for a 12g, or is it simply a matter of HTFU?

Fire one using solid slugs and you'll get your answer.



(get one, especially if you are using a single-barrel gun!)

[SMOKEU]

Fire one using solid slugs and you'll get your answer.



(get one, especially if you are using a single-barrel gun!)

I'm not really keen on solids with that gun, it's more of a skeet gun.

[Mr Merde]

I let Wolf fire my SxS hammer coach gun. 18" barrels.

With #7 shot he found it Ok to use and fun.

Slipped in a couple of #4 shells and he suddenly knew what recoil was all about.

Get a slip on recoil pad, learn the gun then decide if you want to keep the pad.

Could also be benificial if the pull is too short for you.

13.5 inches is standard but some people need a little more.

Chris

PS hoping soon to try it with 00 buck. 9 .36 calibre balls going downrange.
Should be fun.

[SMOKEU]

PS hoping soon to try it with 00 buck. 9 .36 calibre balls going downrange.
Should be fun.

What are you hoping to kill with that?

[Shadows]

Anybody know where one can purchase a waterproof gun bag?
As in a drop it in a river fish it out again and gun is still dry inside kind of bag.

[The Pastor]

you'd want a dry bag, thats what kyakers use to keep there gear dry.

[Mr Merde]

What are you hoping to kill with that?

Tin cans and steel plate

[Shadows]

you'd want a dry bag, thats what kyakers use to keep there gear dry.

All the ones I've seen have been too short for a field shottie unless I got something massive. I could break it down but that would be a pain in the arse.

[Drunken Monkey]

If you can log on to this forum, you can mail order: http://www.orvis.com/store/product.aspx?pf_id=9L3R

[sAsLEX]

All the ones I've seen have been too short for a field shottie unless I got something massive. I could break it down but that would be a pain in the arse.

A section of PVC pipe, sealed one end and with a screw on inspection port at the other.

Like the one on the side of this contraption

229100


Cut pipe to length and have a foam bit in each end to hold the weapon central.

Shouldn't be more than 30 bucks from Mitre ten

[Wolf]

Fire one using solid slugs and you'll get your answer.
Hehe. Yep. Thankfully the Mossberg came with recoil pad attached.

[Wolf]

I let Wolf fire my SxS hammer coach gun. 18" barrels.

With #7 shot he found it Ok to use and fun.

Slipped in a couple of #4 shells and he suddenly knew what recoil was all about.
An accurate, but very abridged, account of the event - Chris left out the bit where I commented on his parentage and sexual practices.

He also, thankfully, didn't attempt to describe the look on my face after I'd fired the first barrel of #4 - that'd probably take up about 50 pages or so and still not quite get the image across.


PS hoping soon to try it with 00 buck. 9 .36 calibre balls going downrange.
Should be fun.
I'd hate to think what double-ought would feel like, given the difference between #7 and #4. Glad I never tried it with slugs - even with the recoil pad on the Mossberg they jar somewhat.

The differences in recoil between different firearms never cease to amaze me. Like firing Shiny Side Up's .30-'06 compared with my little 7.62x39 SKS - the difference between some big guy putting his hand on your shoulder and giving a bit of a shove and someone whacking your shoulder with a billy club. I would frankly prefer to fire the ought-six any day.

Or Chris' .44Mag lever action with black powder (sweet to fire, smooth pushing recoil) cf the .30-30 Winchester I once fired (that both green-sticked and displaced my collarbone).

[Shadows]

If you can log on to this forum, you can mail order: http://www.orvis.com/store/product.aspx?pf_id=9L3R

My logon happens automatically. But cheers for that :niceone:


A section of PVC pipe, sealed one end and with a screw on inspection port at the other.

Like the one on the side of this contraption

229100


Cut pipe to length and have a foam bit in each end to hold the weapon central.

Shouldn't be more than 30 bucks from Mitre ten

Well I never... thought of that! I might give that a shot, cheers.

Love the duct tape!

[The Pastor]

An accurate, but very abridged, account of the event - Chris left out the bit where I commented on his parentage and sexual practices.

He also, thankfully, didn't attempt to describe the look on my face after I'd fired the first barrel of #4 - that'd probably take up about 50 pages or so and still not quite get the image across.


I'd hate to think what double-ought would feel like, given the difference between #7 and #4. Glad I never tried it with slugs - even with the recoil pad on the Mossberg they jar somewhat.

The differences in recoil between different firearms never cease to amaze me. Like firing Shiny Side Up's .30-'06 compared with my little 7.62x39 SKS - the difference between some big guy putting his hand on your shoulder and giving a bit of a shove and someone whacking your shoulder with a billy club. I would frankly prefer to fire the ought-six any day.

Or Chris' .44Mag lever action with black powder (sweet to fire, smooth pushing recoil) cf the .30-30 Winchester I once fired (that both green-sticked and displaced my collarbone).

I think you need to surrender your man card

[The Pastor]

Combined South Auckland Branch Deerstalkers and E.P.C.M. Shoot.

6th February 2011 at Spencer's Farm, Maddaford Rd, Ararimu.

Open from 9am.

Shotgun..
25 clay targets

Centrefire - any rifle....

100metres -
3 rounds standing
3 rounds sitting/kneeling
3 rounds prone

200metres
3 rounds prone

22 Rimfire (Juniors)
50metres 20 rounds any position

Entry fee.

Adults $30

Juniors (under 16) $15

Soft drinks, BBQ etc.
12g shotgun shells $10 a box
Rifles and ammunition available if needed (charge for ammo)
No dogs or alcohol
Please take rubbish with you

Cash only, no eftpos
More info..... Alan 021 307 795

Do bring friends and family to help this fundraiser along.

[Drunken Monkey]

My logon happens automatically. But cheers for that :niceone:

Yeah, it was more of a technical definition...

Get to Kiwibiker = must have internet
Log on to Kiwibiker = can follow basic online forms and instructions

[Wolf]

I think you need to surrender your man card
Good idea. I don't use it often enough to get Fly-Buy points, anyway.

[SMOKEU]

I've seen people skeet shooting at the NZHA range a couple of years ago, does anyone here know how I can get into skeet shooting? I've got my own shotgun, I just need a range to go to which has some clay target launchers and the clay targets.

[Drunken Monkey]

I've seen people skeet shooting at the NZHA range a couple of years ago, does anyone here know how I can get into skeet shooting? I've got my own shotgun, I just need a range to go to which has some clay target launchers and the clay targets.

Easiest way is to join a gun club. Waitemata here in Auckland used to have an open night, where non-members can come have a shoot. Don't know if that's still the case.

You can get your own throwers and clays too if you can find somewhere to use them.

Check http://nzclaytarget.co.nz for clubs close to home.

[SMOKEU]

If I'm hunting rabbits, am I best off quietly stalking them and shooting them with a .22LR, or should I just take a dog with me and go nuts with the shotgun?

[The Pastor]

If I'm hunting rabbits, am I best off quietly stalking them and shooting them with a .22LR, or should I just take a dog with me and go nuts with the shotgun?

I find the most productive way is a mate, a quad bike and a spot light.

get ur mate to drive and spotlight, and when he sees one, just ride as fast as he can right up to it, then blast the sucker with the 12ga.

[The Pastor]

Good idea. I don't use it often enough to get Fly-Buy points, anyway.

you probably have enough to trade in for a box of tampons

[SMOKEU]

I find the most productive way is a mate, a quad bike and a spot light.

get ur mate to drive and spotlight, and when he sees one, just ride as fast as he can right up to it, then blast the sucker with the 12ga.

I don't have access to a quad bike. I went out last night with the .22LR (I forgot the bloody bolt at home!) and the 12ga. We didn't take a dog with us, but we saw plenty of rabbits, although they were all out of shotgun range.

[The Pastor]

I don't have access to a quad bike. I went out last night with the .22LR (I forgot the bloody bolt at home!) and the 12ga. We didn't take a dog with us, but we saw plenty of rabbits, although they were all out of shotgun range.

yeah they tricky bastards to sneak up on them

[Flip]

Depends on the property. Open fields or scrubby gullies. If I take one on a walk I wish I had the other. One of these days I’m going to get a "drilling" 12/hornet over/under, it would be a useful gun to own.

I never realised that there was any difference in recoil because of shot size. OK with 30 to 36 g shot load but why would the pellet size given it is held in a wad make any difference?

I shoot 308 from two rifles, a heavy semi M14 is great to shoot but not cart around and a light weight Ruger M77 that is very light but kicks. Having said that I have never felt the recoil when I have been hunting (buck fever).

[SMOKEU]

Depends on the property. Open fields or scrubby gullies. If I take one on a walk I wish I had the other. One of these days I’m going to get a "drilling" 12/hornet over/under, it would be a useful gun to own.

I never realised that there was any difference in recoil because of shot size. OK with 30 to 36 g shot load but why would the pellet size given it is held in a wad make any difference?

I shoot 308 from two rifles, a heavy semi M14 is great to shoot but not cart around and a light weight Ruger M77 that is very light but kicks. Having said that I have never felt the recoil when I have been hunting (buck fever).

People often say that bigger shot sizes give more recoil, but I've only ever used #4 and #5 so I can't make a comparison. I find the recoil isn't that bad on the old double barrel 12g.

[Wolf]

you probably have enough to trade in for a box of tampons
Well, I'm post-menopausal, mate... but I could get 'em for you if you want.

[Wolf]

I find the most productive way is a mate, a quad bike and a spot light.

get ur mate to drive and spotlight, and when he sees one, just ride as fast as he can right up to it, then blast the sucker with the 12ga.
Last time we had a bunny hunt there were 4 of us with the van. Shiny Side Up and his bro' had spotlights mounted on the rifles which seemed to be the way to go. I was trying to hold and aim the handheld spotlight with my off hand and support the trusty CZ at the same time - a tad cumbersome. No one felt terribly inclined to just do the driving/spotlighting while the others had all the fun shooting bunnies. (No real surprise, there.)

Got to get a mount for a spotlight or tactical torch for the CZ (and sight in the "new" scope) before I next try that.

A couple of times we got out and had a bit of a wander with the spotlights wired up to a motorbike battery but for the most part we just drove around the orchard in the van and picked off the rabbits when they broke cover.

[Wolf]

why would the pellet size given it is held in a wad make any difference?
No feckin' idea. But as both loads were fired from the same gun and had a distinctly different feel to the recoil, it's definitely a factor.

The Mossberg also seemed to kick significantly harder firing slug and 00 than when firing lighter shot shells.

Chris, do you have any info on why it is so?

[Drunken Monkey]

The only thing I can think of is the total mass of the shot and/or the amount of charge varies for different loads. TBH though I noticed only very minor differences between #6's, #4's and 00's in my 870 pump. There was a bigger difference between #6 full power and #6 reduced recoil ammo.

[jono035]

For Slugs vs smaller shot, it could easily be that the slug creates a better gas seal in the bore so more muzzle energy (and more perceived recoil) for the same powder/projectile weight.

The argument could be made the other way around, though, that larger shot provides a worse bore seal around the wad and therefore more muzzle blast and perceived recoil...

[Wolf]

For Slugs vs smaller shot, it could easily be that the slug creates a better gas seal in the bore so more muzzle energy (and more perceived recoil) for the same powder/projectile weight.

The argument could be made the other way around, though, that larger shot provides a worse bore seal around the wad and therefore more muzzle blast and perceived recoil...

It disturbs me that I can see the logic in that.

[Drunken Monkey]

For Slugs vs smaller shot, it could easily be that the slug creates a better gas seal in the bore so more muzzle energy (and more perceived recoil) for the same powder/projectile weight.

The argument could be made the other way around, though, that larger shot provides a worse bore seal around the wad and therefore more muzzle blast and perceived recoil...

I'm thinking the gas seal should be irrelevant, that whatever energy that goes into escaping gas is just lost from the energy of the ammo, i.e. as you increase recoil from propellant, it is directly proportionally decreased from reduced velocity of the bullet. So I would expect in practice that a loose pack, with wasted explosive energy firing a bullet/slug/shot slowly would be the same as a tight pack that imparts more of its energy to the bullet/slug/shot.

In looking at some examples of how recoil works on spring operated auto loaders, it seems the springs are optimized for a certain weight of bullet and work best at a particular recoil. I still think my first guess was closest, if we were to weigh a slug with #6's, I think we'd find that although the smaller shot packs tighter, they just pack less of it. 00 packs more loosely, but they fill the shell to the brim.

[jono035]

I'm thinking the gas seal should be irrelevant, that whatever energy that goes into escaping gas is just lost from the energy of the ammo, i.e. as you increase recoil from propellant, it is directly proportionally decreased from reduced velocity of the bullet. So I would expect in practice that a loose pack, with wasted explosive energy firing a bullet/slug/shot slowly would be the same as a tight pack that imparts more of its energy to the bullet/slug/shot.

In looking at some examples of how recoil works on spring operated auto loaders, it seems the springs are optimized for a certain weight of bullet and work best at a particular recoil. I still think my first guess was closest, if we were to weigh a slug with #6's, I think we'd find that although the smaller shot packs tighter, they just pack less of it. 00 packs more loosely, but they fill the shell to the brim.

True, but total energy is a very minor aspect of perceived recoil. Peak impulse and muzzle blast are more important. I suspect that a better gas seal could increase both these things.

[Drunken Monkey]

True, as the energy is released over a longer t, you would expect the perceived recoil to be lower (but total momentum to still be the same). Perhaps there is no difference in total recoil between the types of ammo, just the rate the energy is released.

Anyone got a force gauge for the next shoot? I'm thinking the next Onewhero Hoplophile shoot might get quite nerdy...

[sAsLEX]

True, as the energy is released over a longer t, you would expect the perceived recoil to be lower (but total momentum to still be the same). Perhaps there is no difference in total recoil between the types of ammo, just the rate the energy is released.

Anyone got a force gauge for the next shoot? I'm thinking the next Onewhero Hoplophile shoot might get quite nerdy...

Weak.

Use some math to prove it...

[Drunken Monkey]

Like:

PR = (((( (Kgms^-1) / Sin(t) ) * xSk * xFl * N/cm^2 ) / R.Sk ) * Kg ) / (ES/1 )

??

Well if you can show me how to express perceived recoil mathematically, then I'll take you on. Until then it's all just popular science...

[Smokin]

Shot shells are made to a specified weight, So an 1-1/4 oz load of #7 shot has the same weight of shot as a 1-1/4 oz 0f #2 shot, Even tho the total shot count is alot higher in the #7 cartridge the recoil will be the same as they also use the same powder charge, as long as brand of cartridge is the same of course. the gas seal will also be the same as it's the wad sealing the load through it's journey through the barrel.

[The Pastor]

.............. wtf ............

[jono035]

I don't think it is as simple as that, smokin.

If the bullet casting guys say that lead can be too soft to seal the bore, I doubt the wad does a particularly effective job.

Also, it is demonstratable that the same rifle firing different handloads with the same muzzle energy can have vastly different perceived recoil, from my understanding.

Ultimately it's all pissing in the wind, though.

[Mr Merde]

According to the Shotgun Recoil Table the recoil energy of a 1 ounce target load at 1180 fps in a typical 7.5 pound gun is 17.3 ft. lbs., about like the recoil of a .270 rifle. The typical promotional shell with 1 ounce of shot at 1290 fps in the same shotgun hits back with around 20.8 ft. lbs. of recoil energy, about like an average .30-06 rifle.

These loads deliver about as much recoil as most shooters can stand on a continuing basis.

A typical high-brass load with 1 1/4 ounces of shot at a MV of 1330 fps fired in a 7.5 pound shotgun is much worse. It belts the shooter with 36.4 ft. lbs. of recoil. This is roughly equivalent to the kick of a .300 Ultra Mag. rifle. Average hunters should strictly limit the number of such loads they fire to avoid developing a flinch.

12 gauge Magnum shells are even worse. A 2 3/4 inch Magnum shell throwing 1 1/2 ounces of shot at 1260 fps from a 7.5 pound shotgun belts the shooter with 45.9 ft. lbs. of recoil, somewhat more than the recoil of a typical .375 H&H Magnum rifle shooting 300 grain factory loads! And the 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge shell firing 1 7/8 ounces of shot at a MV of 1210 fps in that same 7.5 pound shotgun slams the shooter with over 60 ft. lbs. of recoil energy. This is equivalent to the recoil of a .378 Weatherby Magnum rifle, and exceeds the recoil of a typical .458 Winchester Magnum rifle.

This is literally recoil in the elephant gun class, and most shooters would be well advised to avoid such loads.

In summary its not the size of the shot in the case but the velocity that it is loaded to. #7 shot is a bird and target load and loaded to a relatively low velocity. #4 shot is more for wildfowl such as geese, duck and swan. It is loaded to attain a higher velocity than #7 so as to hit harder and further.

[SMOKEU]

To clean a rifle or shotgun do you guys normally run a patch through the barrel with a bore cleaning liquid on it, then run a brass brush through the barrel, then run a clean patch through the barrel to get rid of the cleaner, then run another patch with some gun oil into the barrel to prepare it for storage?

I'm new to shotguns and I'm a bit confused over the whole cleaning thing! The recoil from a 12g is nowhere near as bad as I expected it to be, my over and under one feels quite nice to use with #5 hunting loads.

[Wolf]

In summary its not the size of the shot in the case but the velocity that it is loaded to. #7 shot is a bird and target load and loaded to a relatively low velocity. #4 shot is more for wildfowl such as geese, duck and swan. It is loaded to attain a higher velocity than #7 so as to hit harder and further.
So that's why the #4 recoiled harder than the #7.

I had no idea of the differences in the loads, not being an experienced shotgunner or reloader.

Still puzzled why the SKS - which is not exactly light - firing "dinky" little 7.62x39 rounds has a sharper, harsher kick when compared with the (albeit heavier) Swedish Mauser that was firing muckin' great .30-'06.

I was expecting the .30-'06 to have a monstrous recoil, given the size of the brass and its load. Sure, it pushes you back, but it didn't "kick".

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Wolf, just to add to your confusion, it's not just the cartridge- it can be the shape of the fore end and butt that effects recoil. That is 2 identical actions, say a remmington model 7 in .270 one in the 'factory' woodwork, and the other in an
after market version may feel to have a different amounts of recoil. Even though the ammo used is the same. Some stock shapes seem to 'transmit' recoil more than others.
Of course weight also has a bearing on felt recoil. I have a mate who custom built a .416 Rigby, and added lead weight to the butt. The weight seemed to tame the recoil.

[Drunken Monkey]

To clean a rifle or shotgun do you guys normally run a patch through the barrel with a bore cleaning liquid on it, then run a brass brush through the barrel, then run a clean patch through the barrel to get rid of the cleaner, then run another patch with some gun oil into the barrel to prepare it for storage?

I'm new to shotguns and I'm a bit confused over the whole cleaning thing! The recoil from a 12g is nowhere near as bad as I expected it to be, my over and under one feels quite nice to use with #5 hunting loads.

Use a bore snake, it makes things much easier.

[Shadows]

To clean a rifle or shotgun do you guys normally run a patch through the barrel with a bore cleaning liquid on it, then run a brass brush through the barrel, then run a clean patch through the barrel to get rid of the cleaner, then run another patch with some gun oil into the barrel to prepare it for storage?

That's what I do when I'm feeling conscientious. Otherwise I ignore the brass brush.

The most important thing to remember is to take out any removable choke you may have from time to time and clean the threads up. When they seize in place they pretty much become permanent fixtures...

[Swoop]

26 January, 2011: The Russian Defense Minister caused a firestorm of bad publicity recently when he announced that Russia was shopping for foreign assault rifles and sniper rifles. This offended many Russians, who consider the AK-47, and all of its derivatives, to be perfectly suitable for Russian troops, and national icons as well. But the defense minister has a point. Professional soldiers prefer more accurate assault rifles, and Russia wants to create a more professional army. While the AK-47 was popular with irregulars and bandits, that's mainly because it was a rugged weapon that could survive a lot of abuse and neglect, and still fire. Not very accurately, but as amateurs often fired the AK-47 type weapon on full automatic, accuracy was besides the point. Russians also take pride in the fact that the AK-47 was the first modern assault rifle when it was introduced in 1947. That's not true either. A very similar weapon, the German Sturmgewehr 44 (also known as the MP43, MP43/1, MP44 and StG44) was introduced, on the Russian front, in July 1943 and remained in production, and use, until 1945. The Russians had four years to examine captured Sturmgewehr 44s. It's resemblance to the AK-47 was no accident.
Meanwhile, Russia has implemented a five year plan to spend $12 billion on Western weapons and weapons manufacturing technology. The most visible deals are those with France to obtain four Mistral class amphibious ships (that look like small aircraft carriers), another one for Israeli UAVs and yet another for Italian wheeled armored vehicles. In particular, Russia wants to obtain the manufacturing technology. Russian companies have shown that they can adapt to Western manufacturing methods, and produce comparable goods in Russia, with Russian staff. But Russia has long resisted doing this, legally, with military equipment. Now Russia wants to obtain Western technology and manufacturing techniques for designing and building better assault and sniper rifles.

[SMOKEU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s13Y7SKrFls

[sAsLEX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s13Y7SKrFls

OH I want one.

[Mr Merde]

For all those who have been to my house.

You would have had the pleasure of my dog, Tanner, bouncing aroud them and wanting to be patted.

Today after a brief illness Sharron and I had the very hard task of having him put down.

9 years old and very much part of the family. It was a heartwrenching decision to make but a very rapid tumor on his liver was leaving him in pain. He couldnt eat, drink or move very fast.

The house seems very empty.

I must admit I broke into tears while it was happening.

Alan I will be in touch but the past 3 weeks has cost me a lot in vet fees.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Shit....

Sorry to hear that Chris. I really liked Tanner :(

Will you be looking for another dog in the future?

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Shit....

Sorry to hear that Chris. I really liked Tanner :(

Will you be looking for another dog in the future?

-Indy

Cheers mate.

Right now I just miss the great hulk, we probably will get another some day but for now we will just grieve.

[The Pastor]

that was a cool dog. Lively, but a real nice nature.

[jono035]

Sorry to hear that Chris, Tanner was a nice dog, it's a pity that it happened so suddenly.

[Drunken Monkey]

That's stink news about Tanner bro.

No rush RE: the Parker Hale, it isn't going anywhere in a rush. Take all the time you need.

In other news, anyone see that CloseUp article about rabbit problems in the South Island (like Mt Pisa station) - maybe we should offer our pest extermination services in exchange for somewhere to pitch a tent for a few nights?

[The Pastor]

whos keen for a lazy ride to coroglen one weekend end of feb/march sometime?

could be a sweet gravel section involved, or not.

[sAsLEX]

That's stink news about Tanner bro.

No rush RE: the Parker Hale, it isn't going anywhere in a rush. Take all the time you need.

In other news, anyone see that CloseUp article about rabbit problems in the South Island (like Mt Pisa station) - maybe we should offer our pest extermination services in exchange for somewhere to pitch a tent for a few nights?

Local (to the bach) farmer had a West Coast fisherman rock up one day and ask if he could pitch his caravan somewhere and shoot rabbits for a few weeks in his time off from the boats.

The two nights we went for a wander over his property we got over a hundred of the things so he definitely needed the help!

[SMOKEU]

Is it necessary to clean shotgun bores with a solvent and a copper wire brush after every time it's used, even if I only fire 5 shots out of it? Or can I just run a patch through it then oil the bores?

[jono035]

Is it necessary to clean shotgun bores with a solvent and a copper wire brush after every time it's used, even if I only fire 5 shots out of it? Or can I just run a patch through it then oil the bores?

Everyone has their own opinions on stuff like this and most people end up with their own balance between quick and clean. I know more than a few old guys who have shotguns/rifles that they've never cleaned in their lives that still look good and shoot fine. The care and attention that you give a second hand $200 dunger is likely to be vastly different to what you would give a $5k Beretta.

I don't have a shotgun, but putting a patch through and then oil sounds like plenty enough, I'd probably go with the 'blast of WD40 down the bore' approach, personally, then give it a decent brushing with solvent after a hundred rounds or so.

[scumdog]

Is it necessary to clean shotgun bores with a solvent and a copper wire brush after every time it's used, even if I only fire 5 shots out of it? Or can I just run a patch through it then oil the bores?

Can't remember when I last gave my shotgun more than a wipe-down with Break-Free.

A lot a chrome bores anyway.

[SMOKEU]

I was quite surprised how fouled the barrels get on the 12ga after even 1 shot. A cotton pad seems to clean it out pretty well.

[The Pastor]

I was quite surprised how fouled the barrels get on the 12ga after even 1 shot. A cotton pad seems to clean it out pretty well.

yeah i dont think shot guns NEED to be cleaned, dirty one will not effect accuracy :P

[Swoop]

Well, a few trips to gunshops was interesting yesterday.
Will's Gunshop (hadn't been there since they moved to the new premises) was completely blocked off with some type of filmcrew. "Something" was being filmed in the culvert and the entire entrance was blocked off. A kind traffic-control lady said that the shop was shut and I hope they are financially reimbursed for driving away customers!
Back to Gun City who were still open.
It is really nice to see gunshops open (even for a few hours) on Sunday.

[carver]

anyone got a nagant to sell?

[Swoop]

It is nice to see that the gun show is back at the West Wave venue. Obviously ex-mayor Harvey has no say on what events can be held there any more.:niceone:

[The Pastor]

It is nice to see that the gun show is back at the West Wave venue. Obviously ex-mayor Harvey has no say on what events can be held there any more.:niceone:

man the crime rate really dropped last year

[scumdog]

man the crime rate really dropped last year

Where?
Tahakopa?

[The Pastor]

Where?
Tahakopa?

henderson, they moved the gun show because it promoted crime somehow

[Drunken Monkey]

bah, 2nd and 3rd of April. In Brizzie that weekend...

Still no point buying more, not using the ones I have enough.

[Mr Merde]

Picked up the new bike tonight.

Now the proud owner of a Triumph Daytona 955i 2003

Took it for a short blat and i love it even more.

That triple sound is so addictive, traveling down the motorway i had to conciously keep an eye on the speedo as it seems to love just winding on the speed. Couple of times i felt in the groove, looked down and the bike was pulling another 1/2 the legal spped limit. Top gear ar 4k revs its burbbling along at 110kph. slight flick of the wrist and it is suddenly in licence loosing territory,

Merde

[The Pastor]

nice one, come for a ride with me on the 12th up to waipu for some pizza :D

[Blackshear]

Been going to the shooting range on Nelson street in Auckland city, just shot my first pistol there.
Had shot some form of semi-auto rifle when I was 14-15, some .22's at the pesky possum ravaging someones backyard down hamilton ways, too.

Getting ready to proceed to getting my B licence, I believe it is.
Having done little investigation on my behalf as to the boundaries of pistol ownership, what are NZ's boundaries in regards to owning x caliber pistols?

[Swoop]

Getting ready to proceed to getting my B licence, I believe it is.
Having done little investigation on my behalf as to the boundaries of pistol ownership, what are NZ's boundaries in regards to owning x caliber pistols?
That range is under threat of closure. Some retard wants to turn it into carparking spaces (fuck knows how since it is pretty tight!).
When you refer to "X" calibre, are you talking about the actual barrel calibre or a quantity of firearms?
If quantity, you are permitted a maximum of 12 pistols on your B licence.

[Blackshear]

That range is under threat of closure. Some retard wants to turn it into carparking spaces (fuck knows how since it is pretty tight!).
When you refer to "X" calibre, are you talking about the actual barrel calibre or a quantity of firearms?
If quantity, you are permitted a maximum of 12 pistols on your B licence.
Parking spaces?
Nigga u srsly?
Either way that's pretty guts. I was more or less wondering if there's a maximum caliber/magazine/suppression etc etc.
I should really find out myself lol.
More info on the closure would be nice, where the hell else am I supposed to shoot a gun without a license?

[The Pastor]

Parking spaces?
Nigga u srsly?
Either way that's pretty guts. I was more or less wondering if there's a maximum caliber/magazine/suppression etc etc.
I should really find out myself lol.
More info on the closure would be nice, where the hell else am I supposed to shoot a gun without a license?

plenty of pistol clubs around, just bit of a ride to them.

you have to shoot at a club 12 times a year (or something) to keep ur b cat

[Swoop]

Parking spaces?
Nigga u srsly?
Either way that's pretty guts. I was more or less wondering if there's a maximum caliber/magazine/suppression etc etc.
The closure is supposedly from a senior person running youthtown who possibly is a little "anti-gun"...
It's meant to happen around August this year, I believe.

Maximum calibre? Anything up to .50 so long as it is on the approved pistols list that the police have drawn up.
Minimum barrel length is the crux of the issue and magazines are not an issue as they are [essentially] factory standard and approved with the firearm.
The types of pistol are varied and really depends on what discipline interests you. Precision, action, IPSC, NRA, HMS, Black powder, Silhouette, cowboy, etc, etc.
Have a good look at the pistol.nz website and they should also have a list of clubs around the region.

[carver]

i want some cheap 7.62 x 39 rounds.....

[Indiana_Jones]

I want, never gets...

Take a butchers around different shops and/or sites for surplus. Must be heaps of it in that cal kicking about.

-Indy

[Drunken Monkey]

Petrol prices up. Earthquakes in Godzone.

Someone stocking up before the SHTF?

Reminds me, I'm missing some stuff for my BOB.

[jono035]

CSI range (the one on Nelson St) has been extended to the end of October. The club is currently sorting out a new range in Newmarket. I can't remember the details, but I think it's part of a level of a new building there, so should be pretty swanky if it happens. There were discussions about opening up the range to a few more possibilities, like the suggestion of a 50m range and possibly a bay for shooting steels. The new range should allow .44 magnum (currently temporarily banned at central shooters) and possibly .50AE/.500 S&W.

As for owning pistols, like Swoop said, it's pretty dependent on what you're keen on doing. Personally, I just like burning powder, not really too worried other than that. I currently have a Taurus 9mm semi-automatic (Beretta 92 copy), a fully suppressed Ruger .22/45 semi-automatic (.22lr target pistol) and a .44 magnum revolver. Once you get your B, I'd definitely recommend planning to get a .22 pistol to start with, even if you get something bigger at the same time. The price of .22 ammo means that you can blow through a few hundred rounds without worrying too much, which means that you'll get better with the pistol quicker and probably enjoy any other pistols more. Hang around and most people there will be happy to let you put a few rounds downrange from their pistols which will give you an idea of what you like. All the different rounds and pistols have their own distinct feel to shoot, so experience as much as you can before you decide on anything. There are limits to the number of pistols that you are allowed to own. I believe it is around 10, but I'm not sure. That limit is enforced by pistol NZ and unfortunately has no real backing in law.

Offtopic: Haven't been posting much lately, but I've been lurking away merrily. Mostly I've just been flat out with work, along with also having a lot of foreign family members visiting, which has soaked up what little time was left over after work. The outcome of what we've been working on is pretty amazing though. The company that I work for (currently only 4-5 people) provided the wireless charger for this car:

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/07/rolls-royce-102-ex-phantom-electric-gets-inductive-charge-from-h/
http://www.automoblog.net/2011/03/05/eclectic-meets-electric-rolls-royce-102ex-phantom/

The 2nd image in the 2nd link shows the actual wireless charging system itself in the center of the car, just in front of the rear wheels.

Anyway, I know I've mentioned this to a few of you, figured you might be interested to see what I was on about... Good times.

[Swoop]

There are limits to the number of pistols that you are allowed to own. I believe it is around 10, but I'm not sure. That limit is enforced by pistol NZ and unfortunately has no real backing in law.
It is definately 12 and is also a police rule. When you get a pinkie form from your club it shoud have info regarding total.

Darned interesting about the potential new range! We certainly need a few more around the region.

[Wolf]

Off Topic


Yeah wtf's with that, talking about motorbikes on kiwibiker! :nono: :spanking: Sheesh, I dunno. Some people.






BTW, congrats on the new bike, mate. Sounds sweet - and a lot more pep than my new wheels. :niceone:

[Blackshear]

WALL OF TEXT
Informative read, and much appreciated.
I'm not too sure the cost of licensing, gun and safe will be too high on my 1 year plan, but I'm still pretty keen to get better at it. Ladyfriend with whom I drag to the range (Both done 4 visits so far), was apparently good (looking) enough to get 4 shots of his 9mm pistol (:nono:) while i ticked away the .22 ruger. Whore.
Next time he's going to let me have a crack at the .45 and her the .38 special :banana:

Pictured is what I think 26/35 rounds _near_ a target looks like. Yay me. Previous grouping looked even more shit because I was leaning back too much.

[jono035]

Informative read, and much appreciated.
I'm not too sure the cost of licensing, gun and safe will be too high on my 1 year plan, but I'm still pretty keen to get better at it. Ladyfriend with whom I drag to the range (Both done 4 visits so far), was apparently good (looking) enough to get 4 shots of his 9mm pistol (:nono:) while i ticked away the .22 ruger. Whore.
Next time he's going to let me have a crack at the .45 and her the .38 special :banana:

Pictured is what I think 26/35 rounds _near_ a target looks like. Yay me. Previous grouping looked even more shit because I was leaning back too much.

Looks pretty good. Having a woman along would definitely make getting a shot with other pistols more likely... :)

[Flip]

Well the Easter Bunny hunt is almost here again. Brought 2 cases of shot shells today, so I should not run out this year and I have got about a brick of 22. My landy is playing up, the LPG regulator is not controlling properly, I have a new one on order if its here before easter I will throw it in and get it set up it only takes an hour, otherwise the work Hilux will do the job this year.

Anybody else going from KB?

[Smokin]

Well the Easter Bunny hunt is almost here again. Brought 2 cases of shot shells today, so I should not run out this year and I have got about a brick of 22. My landy is playing up, the LPG regulator is not controlling properly, I have a new one on order if its here before easter I will throw it in and get it set up it only takes an hour, otherwise the work Hilux will do the job this year.

Anybody else going from KB?

I'll be there again, Think this is my 15th Easter bunny hunt. MDU is in our team too. Still waiting for my 17HMR to arrive after 5 months :blink:

[carver]

I want, never gets...

Take a butchers around different shops and/or sites for surplus. Must be heaps of it in that cal kicking about.

-Indy

oh really?

http://www.barnaul.co.nz/index.php?page=price-lists

[Drunken Monkey]

what's wrong with that pricing? looks ok to me. are you really that tight?

[jono035]

$0.50 per round? That's pretty damn good really.

Hell, I've paid more than that for 9mm, and that's normally cheap as hell...

[Indiana_Jones]

$0.50 a round, and that's new ammo. Can't really complain

I found some old Czech tracer rounds lol

http://www.guncity.co.nz/7.62x39-czech-fmj-tracer-ammunition.-xidp238279.html

-Indy

[carver]

i am happy with them, fuck that ex mil tracer shit...cant use it in dry bush, corrosive....fuck gun city too

[Flip]

We took some old 303 tracer rabbit hunting one night, gave it in when a ricochet arced away and ended in a pine plantation. We spent the next couple of hours keeping an eye on it.
Great fun but dangerous shit.

[Shadows]

Not only are they easy to start fires with, tracer rounds aren't any good for accuracy or stopping power either as there's not much consistency in weight and aerodynamics from one bullet to another, they are invariably FMJ which doesn't expand well, the bullets are lightweight by necessity, and they become even lighter the further they travel (at differing rates too) as their bases burn out.

They're cheap for a reason.

[Drunken Monkey]

yeah, but they look awesome.

[Drunken Monkey]

Hey Merde, any progress on the new range?

[Flip]

Thinking about a 10-22 with the laminated stock and heavy hammer formed barrel. Does anybody own one of these here and what do they think?

[jono035]

Thinking about a 10-22 with the laminated stock and heavy hammer formed barrel. Does anybody own one of these here and what do they think?

I had one with an aftermarket laminate stock and Green Mountain bull barrel. Pretty damn accurate and a real joy to shoot from a bi-pod. I'm not sure I'd be keen lugging it around much though, I only really used it for target shooting and the occasional bunny.

DM owns that one now, though.

[sAsLEX]

Thinking about a 10-22 with the laminated stock and heavy hammer formed barrel. Does anybody own one of these here and what do they think?
.236244236245

I have the USA Shooting Team edition. Love it. I don't mind heavy guns, though walking around with a MAG58 the other day at work I would draw the line before that thing and to think the grunts hump that around plus a Steyr..

[jaffaonajappa]

. I don't mind heavy guns, though walking around with a MAG58 the other day at work I would draw the line before that thing and to think the grunts hump that around plus a Steyr..

Mag58 - aprox 12kg's unloaded?
And I thought the C9 was bad enough....
Mind you - i remember some mates whinging about carting .50 cals up about 5 decks and back down....several times a day. Stuff that.

[hospitalfood]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=375676253

[cruza]

Thinking about a 10-22 with the laminated stock and heavy hammer formed barrel. Does anybody own one of these here and what do they think?

bit barrel heavy, lose their handi'ness. laminated stock would be nice thru:innocent:

someone was saying the trigger group was formed out of plastic in the new std ones... be a step back if it is true.

[The Pastor]

BBQ at chirs's place Sunday 4pm :D I'll bring beer + meat

[Drunken Monkey]

BBQ at chirs's place Sunday 4pm :D I'll bring beer + meat

Sweet, I can actually make this one. One of you good fellas PM the new address please :)

[The Pastor]

Sweet, I can actually make this one. One of you good fellas PM the new address please :)

ok, make sure you bring something to bbq

[Drunken Monkey]

ok, make sure you bring something to bbq

Will do. I've got something here for Merde too. See you Sunday.

[stifmyster1]

wow. never realised this thread was here. or that so many were into guns on here. i have found my happy place.