The firearm thread [Archive] - Page 2

scumdog

22nd February 2007, 15:52

As I hope I have shown, I am a newcomer to shotgun shooting, be it an enthusiastic one, I am not up on the various types of shootguning.

WHat is the difference between skeet shooting and clays? Please explain the various disciplines to me.

I'm only guessing here but do you mean the difference between skeet and trap shooting?

Skeet is where the clay 'birds' are launched from a tall building called a tower and a lower building, these buildings are as Sniper says, about 37 metres apart (looked closer to me!) and the 'birds' go more or less from left to right from one or both towers at different angles for each shooter who also moves to different 'stations' each time he shoots.

Trap shooting has a 'bunker' set into the ground central to the range but at an angle to the shooter as the shooter moves from left to right to differing locations after each shot ( and at different distances) the bunker launches the 'birds' away from the shooter but at various angles to the left or right (you never know which way it is going to go) and at various angles of climb.

Sorry if it is not well explained but hope you get the gist of it.

scumdog

22nd February 2007, 15:57

Nice rifle. Takedown is nice. Never had one yet. Had an AR7 once. Whole rifle came apart and fitted into the buttstock. Thats receiver, barrel and two magazines.

I have been told they are not allowed in this country as they can be fired without the buttstock and therefore becmes a hand gun. Not 765mm . Used to tape a litre coke bottle to the barrel and fire it that way. For about 5 shots it was as quiet as hell.

Dunno about the law and the AR7 but the Gevarm has the barrel removed from the action to take it down so no problem as then it can't be fired.

I doubt the AR7 story as it is not 'principaly designed to be fired by one hand' when taken down.

After all, if the AR7 scenario holds true a Lee-Enfield could be said to be in the same catagoty.

Mr Merde

22nd February 2007, 19:21

Dunno about the law and the AR7 but the Gevarm has the barrel removed from the action to take it down so no problem as then it can't be fired.

I doubt the AR7 story as it is not 'principaly designed to be fired by one hand' when taken down.

After all, if the AR7 scenario holds true a Lee-Enfield could be said to be in the same catagoty.

Below are some photos of the AR7.

Note that it is very easy to mount a pistl grip on it and shorten the barrel. Thereby turning it into a pistol.

The barrel is only held on with a keyway and a knurled lock nut. The stock just slots on and a lrge bolt at the bottom holds it to the receiver.

It would take only minuites to convert to a pistol. You can even get 15 round magazines for it.

Just checked the police sites list of allowed firearms and couldnt find it there at all.

Mr Merde

22nd February 2007, 19:24

I'm only guessing here but do you mean the difference between skeet and trap shooting?

Skeet is where the clay 'birds' are launched from a tall building called a tower and a lower building, these buildings are as Sniper says, about 37 metres apart (looked closer to me!) and the 'birds' go more or less from left to right from one or both towers at different angles for each shooter who also moves to different 'stations' each time he shoots.

Trap shooting has a 'bunker' set into the ground central to the range but at an angle to the shooter as the shooter moves from left to right to differing locations after each shot ( and at different distances) the bunker launches the 'birds' away from the shooter but at various angles to the left or right (you never know which way it is going to go) and at various angles of climb.

Sorry if it is not well explained but hope you get the gist of it.

Definitely sounds like fun. I wonder if there is a clays range here in Sth Auckland/ Nth Bombay?

Kickaha

22nd February 2007, 19:51

Thomas Crapper, developer of the flushing toilet system

No he wasn't

Mr Merde

22nd February 2007, 19:56

No he wasn't

Didnt say invent it but develop it

From Wikipaedia

"Despite urban legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_legend), Crapper did not invent the flush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet) toilet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet) (the myth being helped by the surname). However, Crapper put in effort to popularise it and did come up with some related inventions. He was noted for the quality of his products and received several Royal Warrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Warrant)."

Mr Merde

22nd February 2007, 20:28

Slight change of subject from shotguns or maybe not just an related theme.

How many of you reload your own ammunition?

What calibers do you load for?

What equipment do you have?

I'll start.

I reload for 9mm , .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .38 spl, .357 magnum, .223, 30-30, 45-70, .30 Carbine, .308, 7mmTCU, 12 guage.

What do I have?

Dies for each of these calibers.

Scales,

Lee Turret press.

Case care products,

Tumblers.

Lead melting pots, moulds etc.

Every month more get added to.

Have to balance shooting equipment with bike gear.

How long have I been reloading? About 24 years.

Why? For relaxation, because its interesting to me and becuasee its cheaper. I find I can tailor the rounds for each rifle/pistol and by doing so can get better results.

As an example .44 Mag box of 50 costs about $60.
I can make the same 50 rounds to much higher tolerances for about $10 or less.

Even when you amortise in the cost of the equipment it works out much cheaper in the long run.

SOme calibers are cheaper to buy. 12 guage is cheaper to but than make but I enjoy making these so I will continue.

I have a head full of balistics and such from all these years but still get excited when I create a round that groups as light as I can make it.

Post your experiences, questions, stories. Its all shooting and firearms related so enjoy.

geoffm

23rd February 2007, 21:26

Definitely sounds like fun. I wonder if there is a clays range here in Sth Auckland/ Nth Bombay?

There is a clay bird club in Pukekohe (up gun club road IIRC....)
The Waiuku Pistol Club has a fun shotgun shoot once a month.
Geoff

0arbreaka

24th February 2007, 03:32

Definitely sounds like fun. I wonder if there is a clays range here in Sth Auckland/ Nth Bombay?

Yep there is, Pukekohe gun club. I used to do clay target as a sport for my school and we used to train out there.

Mr Merde

26th February 2007, 15:58

Yep there is, Pukekohe gun club. I used to do clay target as a sport for my school and we used to train out there.

I will give them a try

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 08:48

I am hoping for a little advice from one of you out there in cyberland.

I am trying to load for a Winchester 94 in 30-30. 20" barrel

The heads I have are 170gn
Winchester Brass
Federal Large rifle primers.

Looking for a nice accurate load to go with these components.

Not looking for a hunting round.

Accuracy at 250-300 meters is what I am looking for with velocity not much more than about 1700fps.

Had this rifle for over a year now and hardly shot it. Thought I would have a go.

scumdog

28th February 2007, 09:16

I am hoping for a little advice from one of you out there in cyberland.

I am trying to load for a Winchester 94 in 30-30. 20" barrel

Accuracy at 250-300 meters is what I am looking for with velocity not much more than about 1700fps.

I think you're expecting a bit much from the 30-30 in a '94 with a 20" barrel,
even with a scope you probably won't get that kind of accuracy.

(Unless you only hope to hit the bottom of a 44-gallon drum at that range!!!)

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 09:33

I think you're expecting a bit much from the 30-30 in a '94 with a 20" barrel,
even with a scope you probably won't get that kind of accuracy.

(Unless you only hope to hit the bottom of a 44-gallon drum at that range!!!)

All I am looking for it to hit a piece of steel plate approximately 2' x 2' with Kentucky windage

Accuracy was the wrong word to use I suppose.

Just saw an ad for a Contender pistol in the same caliber, with a 10 inch barrel $850 ono . Mmmmmmmm Could be real fun firing that one.

Wolf

28th February 2007, 10:18

Just saw an ad for a Contender pistol in the same caliber, with a 10 inch barrel $850 ono . Mmmmmmmm Could be real fun firing that one.
That's the way to do it! Chamber a pistol for the rifle round, not chamber a rifle for the pistol round (like Winchester did with the .44-40...)

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 10:22

That's the way to do it! Chamber a pistol for the rifle round, not chamber a rifle for the pistol round (like Winchester did with the .44-40...)

I have fired pistols (single shot) chambered for such rounds as .308 and 45-70. After a string of 10 of these you certainly know what recoil is and hopefully how to control it.

ghost

28th February 2007, 10:22

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 10:36

I wanna be like you when I grow up.........

Like all hobies and the like, things just accumulate. You start on one thing and get sidetracked to other aspects.

You dont want to be like me, old, crabbie, obnoxious and intolerant.

scumdog

28th February 2007, 10:39

You dont want to be like me, old, crabbie, obnoxious and intolerant.

Hey, you sound just like me, we're not related are we????

Wolf

28th February 2007, 10:42

Hey, you sound just like me, we're not related are we????
Fuck! We could start our own club!

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 10:44

Hey, you sound just like me, we're not related are we????

Hatched in Invercargill in 1956. Place called Makarewa. My granddad had a farm there as did my uncles

Wolf

28th February 2007, 11:06

I have fired pistols (single shot) chambered for such rounds as .308 and 45-70. After a string of 10 of these you certainly know what recoil is and hopefully how to control it.
I dare say you would!

Recoil from a pistol can certainly catch you off guard the first time - the light weight of the pistol compared with a rifle is certainly a serious factor, despite the typically less-powerful bullets.

After firing the clubs .22 pistols most the night a former friend and I were offered a try of a club member's .357 Magnum revolver - snub-nosed. Firing under-powered handloads for accuracy.

The former friend fired with his elbow locked and bloody-near pirouetted on the spot. I fired the pistol allowing my elbow to flex and the pistol ended up by my ear in an eye-blink - if I'd been going for a double-tap, the second shot would've wound up going through the ceiling.

And that, as I said, was using under-powered "target" loads rather than full magnum loads.

Of course, subsequent shots are more controlled.

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 11:27

I dare say you would!

Recoil from a pistol can certainly catch you off guard the first time - the light weight of the pistol compared with a rifle is certainly a serious factor, despite the typically less-powerful bullets. .........

...... I fired the pistol allowing my elbow to flex and the pistol ended up by my ear in an eye-blink - if I'd been going for a double-tap, the second shot would've wound up going through the ceiling.

And that, as I said, was using under-powered "target" loads rather than full magnum loads.

Of course, subsequent shots are more controlled.

I know where you are comming from here. Used to shoot for accuracy at 300 yard, a Thompson Contender in 7mmTCU- basically a .223 case blown out to 7mm. If you werent aware of the recoil the first shot would recoil the pistol back towards your forehead. As it had a long eye relief scope on it, I gave myself "scope eye" a few times until I learnt what to expect.

The first time I fired this new .500 S&W round the recoil again took me by supprise.

Wolf

28th February 2007, 11:36

I know where you are comming from here. Used to shoot for accuracy at 300 yard, a Thompson Contender in 7mmTCU- basically a .223 case blown out to 7mm. If you werent aware of the recoil the first shot would recoil the pistol back towards your forehead. As it had a long eye relief scope on it, I gave myself "scope eye" a few times until I learnt what to expect.

The first time I fired this new .500 S&W round the recoil again took me by supprise.
Yeah, if you're used to the recoil of one thing and switch to a lighter weapon or a more powerful load you have to get used to it all over. I've had the same with rifles. Fully wooded .303 SMLE gives you a fright after a .22 then you get a "sporterised" (most the wood cut away) SMLE and the recoil again takes you off guard. Then you fire a 7.62x54R Mosin-Nagant and it starts all over again. All I can say is: I'm glad I had the heavy fecking rifle version of the M-N, not the light carbine...

I wouldn't mind trying a really heavy calibre pistol at some stage. I've only fired .22 and the underpowered .357Mag. Haven't even fired 9mm yet - which would be my preferred centre-fire calibre to practise with (oodles of cheap ammo = lots of shots = lots of practise = better accuracy for least expenditure).

jrandom

28th February 2007, 11:48

I'm glad I had the heavy fecking rifle version of the M-N, not the light carbine...

Hah. You should try my M38 with the ATI fibreglass stock on.

The former friend fired with his elbow locked and bloody-near pirouetted on the spot...

Funny how that happens.

The first centerfire pistol I ever let off was a SIG P226 in 9mm. Not knowing quite what to expect, I gave it the White-Knuckled Weaver Stance of Doom.

I felt really silly after the first shot.

9x19 isn't quite .454 Casull...

Edit: Apart from .22s, so far I've played with pistols in 9x19, .357SIG, .40S&W and .45ACP. I enjoyed shooting .45ACP the most. Very little 'snap' to the recoil, and you get to lord it over the pussy 9mm shooters on the lanes beside you.

:D

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 11:49

......
I wouldn't mind trying a really heavy calibre pistol at some stage. I've only fired .22 and the underpowered .357Mag. Haven't even fired 9mm yet - which would be my preferred centre-fire calibre to practise with (oodles of cheap ammo = lots of shots = lots of practise = better accuracy for least expenditure).

If you ever come up to Sth Auck you are welcome to have a try with my revolvers. .44 mag.

On a Monday night go along to the range at Ardmore and visit the PSPC club . One of them will take you through basics and someone there will probably let you try their full bore handguns.

.22 is a fun round to practice with. I personally find that 9mm is too whippy for me. I seem to get a torque twist when ever I fire a pistol chambered for this round.

Used to load for my .357. 180gn heads with 15 gn of Vitavouri N110 powder. Kicked like a mule but I could easily get coke cans at 100 yards, standing. Best shot with my 7mmTCU was a fig 12 mil target (head and shoulders) at 600 yards, walked the bullet fall to the target. Took about 10 rounds and then I could hit it each time. Traj must have been like a rainbow. I remember aiming something like 30 foot above the target.

Wolf

28th February 2007, 11:52

The first centerfire pistol I ever let off was a SIG P226 in 9mm. Not knowing quite what to expect, I gave it the White-Knuckled Weaver Stance of Doom.

I felt really silly after the first shot.

9x19 isn't quite .454 Casull...
Heh, at least your return to target time would've been good.

The bloke who owned the .357 could've nipped out for a smoke while I was bringing the pistol back on target.

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 12:02

9x19 isn't quite .454 Casull...

First time I saw the 454 being fired was at the Pistol Anno Domini shoot in Bisley, Surrey, UK.

This big (read this as F*#king fat) gentleman paid his money and took up position at the firing point. He announced that he knew how to deal with recoil and that he would beat it.

Pulled the trigger, there was a very loud bang and we all pissed ourselves watching the shock wave ripple down the rolls of fat that enveloped him. He also dropped the pistol (which we didnt like very much) as he had held the grip so tight so as to stop any recoil that the grips had twisted and stripped the skin of the palms of his hands.

Firearm was a Freedom Arms revolver and like all revolvers they are designed to twist in your hand.

ghost

28th February 2007, 12:04

Hey, you sound just like me, we're not related are we????

Not the old bit but I suspect I can do the rest real good.....

Youth is fleeting, imaturaty is forever.

Sniper

28th February 2007, 12:05

Fucken firearms geeks..... :bleh:

*Sniper heads off to read his new book, "The Encyclopedia of Firearms"*

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 12:06

Fucken firearms geeks..... :bleh:

*Sniper heads off to read his new book, "The Encyclopedia of Firearms"*

I definitely resemble that remark.

Sniper

28th February 2007, 12:08

I definitely resemble that remark.

And so you should be proud too. :niceone:

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 12:12

If anyone is interested then this site has some exotic calibred handguns and rifles.

http://www.sskindustries.com

"SSK has chambered well over 200 calibers in the Contender.....The 309, 8 mm, 338 #2, 358, 375 and 416 JDJ are based on the very strong 444 Marlin case.....The 257 gets up to 2900 FPS with an 85 grain to make it the most effective long range varmint caliber for Contenders, and the same load is excellent for whitetail and antelope."

Check out the 14.5 JDJ rifle round. A .50 BMG case opened up. Oooh I'm in lust again.

Sniper

28th February 2007, 12:18

If anyone is interested then this site has some exotic calibred handguns and rifles.

http://www.sskindustries.com

I had a loomk at the .50cal part. Please god will someone tell me how and why they have a silencer (moderator to some) fitted to the "Peacemaker???? Is it a use once, throw away or is it meant to act like one of the old rifle grenades and knock the crap out of someone instead of killing them?

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 12:22

I had a loomk at the .50cal part. Please god will someone tell me how and why they have a silencer (moderator to some) fitted to the "Peacemaker???? Is it a use once, throw away or is it meant to act like one of the old rifle grenades and knock the crap out of someone instead of killing them?

Americans and their toys :innocent:

jrandom

28th February 2007, 12:26

14.5 JDJ...

1173 grains at 2700fps?

Oooh errr. It's one thing to stock up on .308 for when the fuzzy-wuzzies come over the hill, but this is what you want when they come in APCs.

I'll be back in five minutes after I've changed my undies...

jrandom

28th February 2007, 12:29

I had a loomk at the .50cal part. Please god will someone tell me how and why they have a silencer (moderator to some) fitted to the "Peacemaker????

That suppressor does look as though it would barely be useful to slow the gas from a .223, let alone a .50BMG.

It's very 'tactical', though.

Come to think of it, these are all very frightening terrrr-rist type guns and should be instantly banned, with an exemption for anything that has a friendly-looking walnut stock.

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 12:32

1173 grains at 2700fps?

Oooh errr. It's one thing to stock up on .308 for when the fuzzy-wuzzies come over the hill, but this is what you want when they come in APCs.

I'll be back in five minutes after I've changed my undies...

But note the first line on the page

"SSK has non Destructive Device exemption for a 14.5 MM (.585") cartridge."

If this isnt a destructive device I dont know what is.

Sniper

28th February 2007, 12:36

But note the first line on the page

"SSK has non Destructive Device exemption for a 14.5 MM (.585") cartridge."

If this isnt a destructive device I dont know what is.

I second that. If its not destructive, I hope it does something else spectacular

jrandom

28th February 2007, 12:43

If its not destructive, I hope it does something else spectacular

The phrase 'destructive device' refers to Murkn federal law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device) about guns that you and I ain't professional enough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0) to own.

ManDownUnder

28th February 2007, 12:55

I definitely resemble that remark.
Fucken right you do

And so you should be proud too. :niceone:
Fucken right he is...

Hey Snipe... I know someone that might want to bunny hunt next year if he can get away from time at the gun range...

Sniper

28th February 2007, 12:59

The phrase 'destructive device' refers to Murkn federal law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device) about guns that you and I ain't professional enough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7ufT_6Kgy0) to own.

Hehe, I remember that video. Reminds me of the quote, "Keep your finger off the trigger Chief".

Although I feel Im professinal enough to own a destructive device, depends on if the define professinal as mature?

Hey Snipe... I know someone that might want to bunny hunt next year if he can get away from time at the gun range...

Sounds good

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 13:00

Fucken right you do

Fucken right he is...

Hey Snipe... I know someone that might want to bunny hunt next year if he can get away from time at the gun range...

Me, me, me

Have I said ME

Wolf

28th February 2007, 13:03

If you ever come up to Sth Auck you are welcome to have a try with my revolvers. .44 mag.
Cheers for that.

.22 is a fun round to practice with. I personally find that 9mm is too whippy for me. I seem to get a torque twist when ever I fire a pistol chambered for this round.
What pistols were you using? Purpose-made target pistols?

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 13:10

Cheers for that.

What pistols were you using? Purpose-made target pistols?

No I just dont get on with the 9mm.

Suppose because I cut my teeth on an AMT Harballer in .45acp and got used to the lesser velocity. This pistol was worked into one very accurate hand gun. 2lb trigger pull, slide to frame fit, dwyer group gripper, new barrel, pacmeyer grips, ambi slide release, reprofiled feeding ramp, etc etc etc. Very nice to shoot. Accurate and easy to carry.

9mm seems to twist in my hand rather than jump. Personal preference, but I just dont like it.

Not saying that I cant use one though.

scumdog

28th February 2007, 22:54

If anyone is interested then this site has some exotic calibred handguns and rifles.

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Pissed off I missed tonights conversation!!!!

BTW I have two early German anti-tank rifle bullets, about 12.7mm and in a long tapered rimmed cartridge about 70+mm long, can't remember exact designation but looked up the internet on them - man, ya gotta see the rifle - it has a wooden stock and all, looks like a giant Model 98 but single shot.
NOT popular with the troops due to recoil.

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 22:59

Pissed off I missed tonights conversation!!!!

BTW I have two early German anti-tank rifle bullets, about 12.7mm and in a long tapered rimmed cartridge about 70+mm long, can't remember exact designation but looked up the internet on them - man, ya gotta see the rifle - it has a wooden stock and all, looks like a giant Model 98 but single shot.
NOT popular with the troops due to recoil.

British had something similar.

Boyes anti tank rifle in .55 caliber. designed to penetrate 1" of steel. Shame was that by WW2 the tanks were much thicker than that.

Fired one a couple of months ago. What a real buzz.

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 23:08

After carefully reading of this site I posted. Carefull in that I had to stop drooling on the keyboard.

I came across this remark.

"Our biggest bolt gun fires a 3600 grain 95 caliber bullet from a highly modified 20 mm vulcan case":gob:

How the f@#k can this be justified in any way. Thats a 1/2 lb projectile. (approx 1kg)

Im having trouble just trying to visualise this round let alone the rifle that fires it.

I suppose you couldnt claim it as a possum gun then? :woohoo::2thumbsup

Wolf

28th February 2007, 23:11

Suppose because I cut my teeth on an AMT Harballer in .45acp and got used to the lesser velocity. This pistol was worked into one very accurate hand gun. 2lb trigger pull, slide to frame fit, dwyer group gripper, new barrel, pacmeyer grips, ambi slide release, reprofiled feeding ramp, etc etc etc. Very nice to shoot. Accurate and easy to carry.
Sounds like a sweet weapon with some serious work done to it.

I would love a Walther P-99 in 9mm - I have the Walther/Umarex CP-99 .177 CO2 pistol and I love the way it fits in my hand.

I've been a fan of Walther firearms for years and if I ever locate an LP-3 in good order at a reasonable price I'll snap it up for target air pistol shooting (as a pneumatic it is a lot more consistent in its shots than a CO2-powered pistol).

At the moment the only constant-pressure air pistol I have is an antiquated long-barrelled piston-driven thing - sights are crap and the judder of the piston slamming home is attrocious.

I'd love a good quality pneumatic air pistol or the time and money to get into rimfire and/or centre-fire pistols just for the consistency without the hassle (my experiences with both piston air rifles and Cat A firearms has taught me I cope better with recoil than piston-judder).

Wolf

28th February 2007, 23:18

"Our biggest bolt gun fires a 3600 grain 95 caliber bullet from a highly modified 20 mm vulcan case":gob:

How the f@#k can this be justified in any way. Thats a 1/2 lb projectile. (approx 1kg)

Im having trouble just trying to visualise this round let alone the rifle that fires it.

I suppose you couldnt claim it as a possum gun then? :woohoo::2thumbsup

Sounds like just the thing for dealing to the fucking mozzies they have out in Te Aroha. They had to give up trying to kill the buggers because the 40mm BOFORS got "costly" to feed. One of them landed at the Te Aroha Aerodrome last week and they put 3000 gallons of av-gas in it before they realised what it was...

Anyway, seriously: Buy the rifle. Just tell the arms officer you want to do a spot of "plinking" in the back yard...

Mr Merde

28th February 2007, 23:22

Sounds like a sweet weapon with some serious work done to it.

I'd love a good quality pneumatic air pistol or the time and money to get into rimfire and/or centre-fire pistols just for the consistency without the hassle (my experiences with both piston air rifles and Cat A firearms has taught me I cope better with recoil than piston-judder).

It was a real sweet handgun. All the work was done by a gentleman by the name of Jim Dodd. He was a Springfield armourer and knew his way around these types of pistols.

Havent fired many air pistols but I can sympathise with the judder problems.

Small bore pistol is a real fun way to learn. At the moment my girlfriend is learning to shoot. Started her off on .22 to build confidence. Moved her up the caliber scale to .44 mag. Getting her either .38/.357 revolver or a .32 revolver.

You can pick up a reasonablely priced .22 quite easily here in NZ. The only other costs then are the safe, joining a club and the $200 cost for the B cat to your licence. Might as well get you E cat at the same time for the same $200.

Wolf

28th February 2007, 23:58

Small bore pistol is a real fun way to learn. At the moment my girlfriend is learning to shoot. Started her off on .22 to build confidence. Moved her up the caliber scale to .44 mag. Getting her either .38/.357 revolver or a .32 revolver.
Mmmm, the .32 revolver sounds like a great idea. I'm more of a semi-auto kind of bloke but one of the guys at the local club was showing off a nice .32 revolver that fitted my hand like a glove - great balance and weight as well. He reckoned it was a very accurate weapon.

You can pick up a reasonablely priced .22 quite easily here in NZ. The only other costs then are the safe, joining a club and the $200 cost for the B cat to your licence. Might as well get you E cat at the same time for the same $200.
That doesn't sound too foul, cash-wise. Had a bit of a look in the interweb-thingy and the cheapest .22 pitols I found were a couple of Ruger Mk2 semis at around $700.

Sniper

1st March 2007, 08:06

Anyway, seriously: Buy the rifle. Just tell the arms officer you want to do a spot of "plinking" in the back yard...

Yea right. That would be hard to justify one you've laid waste to a hectare of land and forced your neighbours to vacate their property under fear of collateral damage

Mr Merde

1st March 2007, 09:04

Yea right. That would be hard to justify one you've laid waste to a hectare of land and forced your neighbours to vacate their property under fear of collateral damage

But just imagine the buzz of firing that first ever round !!

.95 caliber 3600 gn projectile 20mm case. Wonder what the velocity is?

jrandom

1st March 2007, 09:12

3600 grain... Thats a 1/2 lb projectile. (approx 1kg)

I think you have your conversions back-arse-wards. 3600 grains is 233 grams.

Still ridiculous dimensions for any shoulder-fired cartridge, though.

Mr Merde

1st March 2007, 09:22

I think you have your conversions back-arse-wards. 3600 grains is 233 grams.

Still ridiculous dimensions for any shoulder-fired cartridge, though.

there are approx 7100 gns in a lb therefore 3600 gns is approx 1/2 lb

where I messed up was lbs to kilos. I just realised. DUH will I ever go metric?

Just think anout the poor possum on the receiving end !!

jrandom

1st March 2007, 09:59

where I messed up was lbs to kilos.

Yeah, I guessed that.

And yes, I pity the possum; at 2500fps, that projectile would have the same kinetic energy as a 1-ton car travelling at 42kph.

Splat.

Mr Merde

5th March 2007, 20:45

Just taken a break for 1/2 an hour.

I have been reloading for a couple of hours now.

Need to replenish my concentration.

I spent all yesterday afternoon casting .44 projectiles. I now have 1000 of them, sized and lubed.
Last night I preped all my cases.

300 .44 spl, 300 .44 mag, 100 30-30 and 150 12 guage.

I will have all these reloade by the weekend.

Using a Lee turret press as it gives me a little flexibiltiy as I am loading all but the 30-30 with BP.

The 30-30 I am loading with ADI 2207. 16.5 gns under a 170 gn proj,

The .44spl has 20 gns by volume of BP topped off with semolina for compression the .44 mag has 25 gns by volume of BP with semolina. Shotgun has 65 gns of BP with 1 1/8 oz #7 shot.

Next week I am going to make smoke and live in the 19th century for 5 days. Yeh ha.

Anyone down Carterton way between the 15th-18th March and cares to look in, there is a CAS shoot at the pistol club.

If you get there look me up. I will be shooting in the Frontier Cartridge class (black powder)

Mr Merde

6th March 2007, 11:04

Wolf

6th March 2007, 11:20

Meant to post this last night but reloading took up a lot of my time.

Fired my new .22 semi auto pistol on Sunday afternoon. By new I mean new to me.

Vostok semi.
10 shot mags
threaded for suppressor

tried it suppressed and not.

For an old .22 it supprised the hell out of me.

Accurate and easily to use. points easily.

Suppressed it showed a definite preference for the Aquilla SSS rounds.

All in all a sweet little pistol.
Sounds sweet, got a pic you can post?

The club pistol I fired was a long barrelled single shot - practically a bolt action. Lousy pointing on it as it was barrel-heavy and it took some effort in the wrist to bring the barrel up to aim - not conducive to steady aiming. They had a couple of club semis that looked more conventional and looked as if they had a better balance but I never got a chance to try them out.

I've held a Glock and a P99 and I find the grip angle on the Glock is awkward for me - have to tilt my wrist in a way that feels unnatural to line up the sights whereas the P99 and CP99 have a more natural feel - raise my arm with the pistol held comfortably and my wrist in a comfortable position and the sights are aligned perfectly.

The Ruger Mk2 looks like its grip angle is similar to that of a P99 so I may well find it easy to point - don't know for sure without trying, though.

jrandom

6th March 2007, 12:24

Ruger Mk2 looks like its grip angle is similar to that of a P99...

The angle is similar to Glocks, too, but a G17 feels worlds different in the hand to a Mk I/II.

Ruger do sell the model 22/45, now, which has the same grip angle and control locations (safety, mag release) as a 1911, for those who want to practice with a target-quality .22 that has the same ergonomics as their primary bullseye or action shooting pistol. I'd quite like to try one of those.

Swoop

7th March 2007, 15:47

The club pistol I fired was a long barrelled single shot - practically a bolt action.
Sounds like a Drulov. Used to be popular in the dark ages of NZ pistol shooting.

Mumbles

8th March 2007, 18:52

Tried last night to sell my L1A1 on Trademe couldnt tick the little box that said it was a "A" cat as its on my E, so just listed it under Antiques & collectables > Militaria. looked at it this morning had 60 view and 3 on watch list. Came home tonight to find that it had been pulled and following email in my in box
"Your listing for SLR L1A1 7.62 X 54 (308) *THIS IS A E CAT WEAPON* Listing no. 90884724 has been withdrawn.Unfortunately the listing above does not comply with the Trade Me terms and conditions, and the product is not permitted to be sold on Trade Me." :gob:

But what I dont get is other SLR's are traded on there all the time, mine looks almost the same just has a 20 round mag and massive price tag of ($3.5k - 4k)

The fact that its a "E" means I cant just sell it to anyone as it Reg to me so need to make sure when sold, it's off to the correct person, the old "A" cat is not reg to the shooter so can go where it likes WTF!! :angry:

The only reason I'm selling her as I have to pay for the 2 new front + 1 rear disks new rear tyre and some other misc bike stuff!

I'm torn between the two :love: BIKE :shutup: GUN :love:

Cool feel better now thanks....

0arbreaka

8th March 2007, 19:36

Dont sell it mate, its in brilliant cond. How much you after for it?

Mumbles

8th March 2007, 19:46

Dont sell it mate, its in brilliant cond. How much you after for it?

Lots... that why I was trying trade me! find somone with loads of money, who wants a good one of these. My reserve was $3500 with a buy now of $4000.

:love: B I K E :shutup: :shutup: G U N :love:

Mumbles

8th March 2007, 19:49

Here is what I had it listed as

SLR L1A1 7.62 X 54 (308) *This is a E Cat Weapon* (E cat license required)

I have owned this for approx 8 years.
All work carried out by ProShoot in Auckland, September 2006. I have only fired 10 test rounds since this work has been done and have not even had a chance to sight it back in since the scope went back on. It has the normal horrible trigger pull associated with one of these old battle hardened weapons.

Work carried out by ProShoot:
Installed 2nd hand short barrel (ex Proshoot project fired <60 rounds); installed the “Bell & Carlson” stock (not really that comfortable for a small handed shooter); Milspec coating by Brent Sandow (http://www.brentsandowknives.com)

Auction is for:
SLR L1A1 (Pictured)
B Square scope mount (pictured on rifle)
Scope 4x32 vary power (cannot account for its accuracy as pulled off a old 22 and have yet to sight it in on this gun)
Original dust cover (not Milspec coated)
4x20 round mags (2x Great, 1x Ok, 1x Fair condition – all mags function no problems)

These guns are getting harder to find so the price reflects this, my reserve is less than buy now, but once reserve has been met will go to highest bidder.
Can deliver to Wellington/Auckland would prefer buyer to pick up so can check license details.

Will not answer unrealistic questions so please don’t waste both of our time.

Note: Will not split or sell items separately, auction is for the lot.

scumdog

8th March 2007, 20:10

Swoop

8th March 2007, 20:50

Tried last night to sell my L1A1 on Trademe couldnt tick the little box that said it was a "A" cat as its on my E, so just listed it under Antiques & collectables.
The PC brigade at Betrademe know better than us, so you will have your auctions pulled for registered firearms.

Try listing it at www.kiwiguns.co.nz
This site was started as a response to the idiocy of the tardme "intelligensia" rules...
I have copped some shit from them before, for suggesting that people's auctions would be pulled and when that happens, to advertise at kiwiguns.
You also realise that NZ Police fully monitor the firearms being traded on Betrademe???

The alternative is to get a 7rd mag fitted to the firearm and sell it in A-cat condition (provided that you get it off of your "E" and onto an "A").

Mumbles

8th March 2007, 21:01

Love the musket man, I would like one but in 'original' condition.

Still, your one would have to be pretty damn good.:yes:

Thanks for the reply
Try www.guncity.co.nz they have some in original that are cheaper than mine :yes:

Mumbles

8th March 2007, 21:11

The PC brigade at Betrademe know better than us, so you will have your auctions pulled for registered firearms.

Try listing it at www.kiwiguns.co.nz
This site was started as a response to the idiocy of the tardme "intelligensia" rules...
I have copped some shit from them before, for suggesting that people's auctions would be pulled and when that happens, to advertise at kiwiguns.
You also realise that NZ Police fully monitor the firearms being traded on Betrademe???

The alternative is to get a 7rd mag fitted to the firearm and sell it in A-cat condition (provided that you get it off of your "E" and onto an "A").

Thanks for your help, yeah now about the police, they getting some heat from head office, know this cause of the "B" stuff when I moved down from Auckland. Tried that website but cant find anything helpful yet, will take another look tomorrow
Cheers:yes:

Swoop

9th March 2007, 08:08

Try www.guncity.co.nz they have some in original that are cheaper...

I do not believe that the words "guncity" and "cheaper" should be used in the same sentence.......

Mumbles

10th March 2007, 16:43

I do not believe that the words "guncity" and "cheaper" should be used in the same sentence.......
Thats the old demand thing again... but with more demand means higher price. If it wasen't for guncity my SLR would only be worth $1000 if that. The fact that they have everything online makes shopping easy, mabe thats why they up their price? Gun shops in Auckland have been cheeper but you wouldn't find the same online stuff...
GunCity do have some cheep SLR's though

pritch

10th March 2007, 22:47

Monday should be a special day.

Since it's a holiday here I'm riding up to Auckland tomorrow to do some shopping Monday morning.

I've got my licence in my wallet, got the permit, and I've even got the money, (however briefly), so will probably be sitting on the footpath outside the shop on the Great South Road waiting for them to open Monday morning.

I will take my helmet off before I walk in, don't want to get shot. :nono:

Wolf

11th March 2007, 19:20

I will take my helmet off before I walk in, don't want to get shot. :nono:
You don't strike me as being stupid enough to try to rob a gun store.

Drunken Monkey

11th March 2007, 20:04

I've swapped some of my rifle scopes over and want to zero them in before my next hunt. Is it possible to do this at one of the local rifle clubs? Does anyone know if their ranges are open to 'casual' shooters (i.e. non-members)? Are there better ways to do this if you haven't got easy access to a farm you can shoot on?

Cheers.

0arbreaka

11th March 2007, 20:18

what caliber are your rifles?

Drunken Monkey

11th March 2007, 20:24

.243 and a rimfire

doc

13th March 2007, 17:13

Why are SLR's worth so much ? They are horrible friggin things. Nothing is attractive about them, heavy lump of a cannon ,and simply an army surplus item. Nostalgia is not worth that much money.

jrandom

14th March 2007, 14:48

Nothing is attractive about them, heavy lump of a cannon...

I find them real nice to shoot. Very confidence-inducing. The day the fuzzy-wuzzies come over the hill, a FAL will be first to my hand behind the sandbags on the front porch. And they look scary, like a proper weapon, instead of resembling a plastic raygun from a bad '60s sci-fi TV series.

No offense to the fine design engineers at Steyr, of course.

Nostalgia is not worth that much money.

I dunno. I really like my Nagant and my Kar98K. I like to sit and hold them and think of the blood they might have spilled into European mud in the stink and clamour of battle, and the countless hands that have passed across the worn bluing of their receivers over the last 64 years.

It's an entirely different buzz from holding a factory-new Ruger or Sako. Those are just tools. Fine, modern tools, but they ain't got no soul.

Wolf

14th March 2007, 17:09

resembling a plastic raygun from a bad '60s sci-fi TV series.

No offense to the fine design engineers at Steyr, of course.
Same description could apply to the Slap=Happy Lincoln Toys - M16 and variants

I really like my Nagant and my Kar98K. I like to sit and hold them and think of the blood they might have spilled into European mud in the stink and clamour of battle, and the countless hands that have passed across the worn bluing of their receivers over the last 64 years.
Yep, When I had my Mosin-Nagant, I used to muse that it had been fired at, and most likely injured and killed, Germans on the Eastern Front during WWII.

It is also likely my Russian SKS had seen service.

It's an entirely different buzz from holding a factory-new Ruger or Sako. Those are just tools. Fine, modern tools, but they ain't got no soul.
Entirely.

doc

14th March 2007, 19:29

I find them real nice to shoot. Very confidence-inducing. The day the fuzzy-wuzzies come over the hill, a FAL will be first to my hand behind the sandbags on the front porch. And they look scary, like a proper weapon, instead of resembling a plastic raygun from a bad '60s sci-fi TV series.

No offense to the fine design engineers at Steyr, of course.

I dunno. I really like my Nagant and my Kar98K. I like to sit and hold them and think of the blood they might have spilled into European mud in the stink and clamour of battle, and the countless hands that have passed across the worn bluing of their receivers over the last 64 years.

It's an entirely different buzz from holding a factory-new Ruger or Sako. Those are just tools. Fine, modern tools, but they ain't got no soul.
Well the ole Lee enfields or even .45/70 Govt do it for me but the ole enfields never became worth that sort of money.

Wolf

14th March 2007, 20:37

Well the ole Lee enfields or even .45/70 Govt do it for me but the ole enfields never became worth that sort of money.
Depending on its condition, what version and where it was manufactured, some of the SMLEs can be worth a pretty good amount - especially overseas.

The fact that they were made in fantastic numbers drives the price down and modified ones aren't worth a lot but original condition ones can command more. A mate of mine had a collection of them made in various factories in bloody nice condition. I also met a bloke online who makes damned good money selling the older SMLEs to collectors in the States.

Swoop

15th March 2007, 08:18

No offense to the fine design engineers at Steyr, of course.
I truly hope that the quality control at Steyr is far superior to that at Lithgow. The quality of the Aussie made product, when first introduced, was less than desired.
83 faults in the manufacturing process were discovered by the time NZ units were issued with the AUG, and so began a long process of inspection and repairs...

Wolf

15th March 2007, 10:03

I truly hope that the quality control at Steyr is far superior to that at Lithgow. The quality of the Aussie made product, when first introduced, was less than desired.
83 faults in the manufacturing process were discovered by the time NZ units were issued with the AUG, and so began a long process of inspection and repairs...
The plastic bits of the Steyr are made all around the world in local plastics factories.

Not sure where the few metal bits are made.

Swoop

15th March 2007, 10:52

The plastic bits of the Steyr are made all around the world in local plastics factories.

Not sure where the few metal bits are made.
The plastics used were not up to NZ quality UV rays! The result? The plastic distorted and the magazines fell out...

Wolf

15th March 2007, 12:21

The plastics used were not up to NZ quality UV rays! The result? The plastic distorted and the magazines fell out...
Hmmm, they must import the raw plastic -the plastic bits for Steyrs are manufactured here in NZ, too.

jrandom

15th March 2007, 15:44

the ole enfields never became worth that sort of money.

An original condition NZ-issue WW2 sniper model Mk IV SMLE recently went for over $4K on TardMe.

The plastic bits of the Steyr are made all around the world in local plastics factories.

Oh dear, oh yes. Tell me about it. Company I work for designs hi-fi and noise-cancelling headphones. It's fairly important to get the plastics right, as you'd imagine, what with acoustic physics being the bitch that they are, and typical consumers being the violent, inconsiderate bastards that they are.

The kind of issues that you run into when trying to get injection-molded parts made to strict tolerances with the correct chemistry without breaking some beancounter's bill-of-materials budget make grown men cry on a regular basis.

doc

15th March 2007, 18:05

An original condition NZ-issue WW2 sniper model Mk IV SMLE recently went for over $4K on TardMe.

See proper nostalgia, don't get that sort of nostalgia with an SLR.
Remember a .303 snipers rifle in the armoury in Waiouru when I was a noobie. Just think of what they could have done with todays stuff. Different times certainly harder men.

The Lone Rider

16th March 2007, 23:59

All I have are a bunch of automatic air rifles that are no longer legal to import into NZ. They are both custom Hecklar & Koch G3 models, for playing airsoft and target shooting. I want to sell them but you can't list them on trademe :(

Swoop

17th March 2007, 13:46

Hecklar & Koch G3 models,
Heckler

I want to sell them but you can't list them on trademe
This is why www.kiwiguns.co.nz came into existance, because of betrademe's internal policy of not allowing legally owned firearms, etc to be listed.

scumdog

17th March 2007, 22:32

The plastic bits of the Steyr are made all around the world in local plastics factories.

Not sure where the few metal bits are made.

The 'hammer' was made by the sintered metal process, a lot of them failed under repeated impacts in the AUGs.

Wolf

18th March 2007, 00:00

The 'hammer' was made by the sintered metal process, a lot of them failed under repeated impacts in the AUGs.
*a quick google later*
Thanks for that. So the plastics aren't the only things that are "injection moulded" on them.

I'd hope the barrel is manufactured by more conventional metal-working.

The Lone Rider

18th March 2007, 08:53

Heckler

This is why www.kiwiguns.co.nz came into existance, because of betrademe's internal policy of not allowing legally owned firearms, etc to be listed.

Kiwi guns appears to be a search portal for a currently unregistered domain name?

Swoop

18th March 2007, 16:08

Kiwi guns appears to be a search portal for a currently unregistered domain name?
Ah,crap!
That site was quite handy for a while, also without comission fees that betrademe like to charge.
If they worked out that if licenced trading for was going on (on tardme) for more than just "A" cat stuff, then their comissions (profits) would be much higher.

Mumbles

18th March 2007, 21:14

The Lone Rider

18th March 2007, 22:35

Melt some solder into the firing pin mechanism and sell without a magazine as a decomissioned gun suitable for hanging on a wall.

I don't really know what I'm on about. Airsoft air guns are my forte.

Wolf

18th March 2007, 23:18

Just had an idea, not one of my more smarter ones.:shifty:

AS you guys might or might not know, I’ve had trouble trying to sell my L1A1 on Trademe but they keep pulling it cause its a "E" cat. :oi-grr:

What about if I was to list a “Photo” of my L1A1 for auction.
I then offer the winner of the auction the pictured L1A1 at no charge? :whistle:

Na better not, dont want to cause too much trouble :scratch: or do I? :no:
Get a mag cut down to seven rounds, as I recall the flash suppressor unscrews so do so, it already has a "target" stock going by the pics, so list it as "A" cat but mention in the ads that E cat licence holders may be interested in the fact you have 20 round mags and the flash suppressor available for it...

Swoop

19th March 2007, 21:43

What are they going to do? Try to see if they can get firearms or ammo without a licence?

What day and time is it on?
Adverts are promoting it to screen this week.
Selling airguns, by the looks of it.

Wolf

19th March 2007, 23:21

Adverts are promoting it to screen this week.
Selling airguns, by the looks of it.
Ah, a repeat of their selling smokes to underage chicks but instead selling airguns to under-18s who require a firearms licence to get one (as opposed to us old farts who only need a licence when we buy explosive-propellant firearms).

I saw the selling of cigarettes one and I think it was unmitigated crap. In the case of the older actress, it could be a genuine "she looked old enough to me" issue. When they actually asked her age and she answered honestly they said "no". The wording on the signs is "If you look younger than.." which is extremely subjective.

I had a twenty-one-year-old friend who turned up to lunch fuming and swearing because they asked her for ID for smokes at one of the shops.

When I was 14 I could have bought smokes anywhere (15-year-old limit then but I could have passed as 18). At 18 I was getting into pubs with no difficulty (21 was the age limit) - all I had to do was stop shaving for a couple of days.

So I guess they'll be getting a couple of 16-year-olds who look marginally old enough and send them into gun shops to see if they get mistaken for 18-year-olds and therefore sold an airgun. Bollocks again.

I'll watch it, see if I'm wrong or right, then possibly may feel moved to send a letter to Target about their tactics.

Wolf

20th March 2007, 00:09

This is the comment I put up on TV3's comments for the cigarette sting episode:

Actually, I thought the segment was rubbish. Sensationalist journalism at its lowest. The perceived age of another person is very subjective and the 16-year-old actress looked anywhere between 16 and 20 to me. It is up to the storekeeper to estimate the age of a person and sometimes they're going to get it wrong - a 21-year-old friend of mine was furious at being asked for an ID when buying cigarettes, 16 and 17-year-olds get sold them without question. Sending an actress in who looks roughly the right age and kicking up a song and dance that some people don't check that they're old enough is just rubbish. I note that most those who let them buy cigarettes were foreigners - hardly surprising they cannot determine the age of someone not of their own race (I personally cannot tell the age of any asian between 15 and 30 by appearance alone). Nice job of deliberately stacking the odds in favour of sensationalism, guys. You should be in the propaganda industry. Oh, you are.

I suspect something similar will come out of tomorrow's programme - I confirmed from their site that tomorrrow's episode is about seeing who will sell airguns to minors.

Swoop

20th March 2007, 07:49

It is interesting that when purchasing from a gunshop, checking and recording licence details is normally the last step of the transaction before the cash register is used. Target seems to go "so far" with a transaction and then use that as evidence that a transaction would be fully completed.
Should be interesting to see what "shops" are involved as all of the licenced dealers I have visited are bloody kosher! Even if they know me, it is "show us your licence... again, just for the hell of it". They keep their nose clean!

Wolf

20th March 2007, 10:04

Even if they know me, it is "show us your licence... again, just for the hell of it". They keep their nose clean!
Well, it's a remote possibility the licence was revoked between visits so it pays to check.

jrandom

20th March 2007, 14:56

Even if they know me, it is "show us your licence... again, just for the hell of it".

Weeeelll... there's at least one Auckland gun shop that no longer asks to see my licence as a matter of course. I guess they should probably be shut down with extreme prejudice. They're obviously a bunch of criminals.

Still, any gun shop sales guy that doesn't ask for proof of age when selling airguns to the local yoof is just asking for trouble.

Presumably Target has their actors attempt the purchase with a dud EFTPOS card and then walk away gunless when the transaction is declined?

The "OMG shock horror this is teh evil!!11!1!" voiceover on the TV ad segment promoting that episode had me a bit nauseous. I don't think I'll bother watching tonight.

Seriously, though, in my not-so-humble opinion, anyone needing a weapon would be much better served with a machete than an airgun, and there's nothing stopping a 16-year-old from picking one of those up at Mitre 10.

ManDownUnder

20th March 2007, 15:00

It is interesting that when purchasing from a gunshop, checking and recording licence details is normally the last step of the transaction before the cash register is used. Target seems to go "so far" with a transaction and then use that as evidence that a transaction would be fully completed.

And that makes sense to me. What's the point of writing something in the register if the payment fails, then you have yto cross it out (and I'd expect an explanation/audit trail of sorts would also be needed to explain it).

Much simpler to take payment and THEN put the details into the book.

IDEALLY I guess they should check licence before taking payment but taking payment up front expedites the whole thing.

Mr Merde

20th March 2007, 15:20

I missed this program as I was away at a shooting competition.

Could someone please give a synopsis of the program for me.

ManDownUnder

20th March 2007, 15:23

I missed this program as I was away at a shooting competition.

Could someone please give a synopsis of the program for me.

It's on tonight (http://www.tv3.co.nz/Programmes/Target/tabid/152/Default.aspx?showid=12836)

Mr Merde

20th March 2007, 15:30

It's on tonight (http://www.tv3.co.nz/Programmes/Target/tabid/152/Default.aspx?showid=12836)

Thanks MDU,

I'll be ready if I can get the old lady off Coronation Street for a change.

ManDownUnder

20th March 2007, 15:38

Thanks MDU,

I'll be ready if I can get the old lady off Coronation Street for a change.

Here's the trailer (http://www.tv3.co.nz/default.aspx?tabid=206&articleID=21266#vidlist21266)

Interesting they're talking about selling replica air pistols to people illegally but the intro segment shows a pistol spitting out brass casings...

Mr Merde

20th March 2007, 15:43

Here's the trailer (http://www.tv3.co.nz/default.aspx?tabid=206&articleID=21266#vidlist21266)

Interesting they're talking about selling replica air pistols to people illegally but the intro segment shows a pistol spitting out brass casings...

We are not supposed to notice that. I also noticed a definite crack when firing those handguns, not airgun sound. Did you notice the target had a very large hole in it about .45 caliber not .177

Sensationalism

scumdog

20th March 2007, 22:09

Wot a crock of shit that programme was!!

Tells you how dangerous air-guns are and mention the tragic case where one boy shot the other throught the eye with an air rifle and nearly killed him

THEN they show you slug PISTOLS and 'soft-air' guns.

Like telling you how dangerous motorbikes are and mentioning a fatal crash that invloved an R1 - but then showing you a GN125.

Arrrgh, bloody sensationalism reporting.:sick:

Rickards wos innercent.

Wolf

20th March 2007, 23:53

After all that, I forgot about the program until it was over.

Anyone catch it? Did they actually show anyone purchasing a [.45 cal weapon that spits out brass and makes a loud crack] without a licence?

Wolf

21st March 2007, 00:44

Wot a crock of shit that programme was!!

Tells you how dangerous air-guns are and mention the tragic case where one boy shot the other throught the eye with an air rifle and nearly killed him

THEN they show you slug PISTOLS and 'soft-air' guns.
Yeah, wahl, we all KNOW that pistols are just as deadly as rifles...

Wait'll their blog gets filled with tripe by concerned citizens saying that it's outrageous how 16-year-olds are buying lethal soft air pistols over the counter.

How did their hidden camera "sting" operation go, SD, did they catch any "evil" gun stores? If they did, I hope the stores concerned wrote responses pointing out the procedure to at least get some balance back.

Someone on here who watched it should post a comment on their blog pointing out the disparity between the pistol depicted in their trailer and the air pistols featured in their programme as well as SD's comparison between their likening of air rifles to soft air pistols and likening an R1 to a ginny. Reiterations of my argument about the difficulty in accurately assessing age may be approriate, too.

scumdog

21st March 2007, 00:55

Yeah, wahl, we all KNOW that pistols are just as deadly as rifles...

Wait'll their blog gets filled with tripe by concerned citizens saying that it's outrageous how 16-year-olds are buying lethal soft air pistols over the counter.

How did their hidden camera "sting" operation go, SD, did they catch any "evil" gun stores? If they did, I hope the stores concerned wrote responses pointing out the procedure to at least get some balance back.

Nah, I suspect that privately they were gutted by the responsibility of the various gun-shops when it came down to buying the .22s, top marks to the gun-shops.

And when it came to 'buying' the air-guns and the crap involved with that 'sting' I gave up and went to the monthly meeting of our local hot-rod club, at least I could drink my handle without blowing the froth over the TV screen.

Swoop

21st March 2007, 08:35

They tried stores in Rotorua, Hamilton and Auckland.
All completely kosher with regards to licences etc with .22 purchase... (surprise, surprise...)
With the airguns there were a couple who didn't explain responsibilties clearly and a couple who didn't adequately check ages, even one letter of reply stated "it was clearly obvious the age of the accompanying person was older than 18".
A load of hoohaa over nothing really.

Fish will recognise the range where the filming was done, eh!:yes:

jrandom

21st March 2007, 11:57

Fish will recognise the range where the filming was done, eh!:yes:

Sure did. I noticed that they took down the lane dividers. Obviously Target encourages unsafe pistol shooting. I wonder how that chick fronting the show would like some hot brass down her collar? And they only ran the targets out a few yards.

They should have had an intro clip of a club shoot going on to show the difference between real pistols and the toys their actors were attempting to purchase. Be fun to listen to their camera mics clipping on 150dB SPL shockwaves bouncing around the range. :)

I was happily unsurprised by the correct and responsible approach taken by all the gun shops. Well done, guys.

And I ROFL'd at the intro comments about how "most firearm crimes are committed with illegally obtained weapons, so, er, we thought we'd do an expose on legal purchasing methods..."

It was probably the least scandalous Target episode I've ever seen.

Wolf

21st March 2007, 14:14

Cheers, Swoop and Fish, for giving me a laugh. Sounds like the Target team needs some serious firearms safety training - they seem to have shot themselves in the foot...

pritch

22nd March 2007, 13:40

Melt some solder into the firing pin mechanism and sell without a magazine as a decomissioned gun suitable for hanging on a wall.

Under the Act that has been in force for 15 years or so now (?) there is no such concept as "decommisioned". If it is rimfire or centrefire it is a firearm and requires security appropriate to the relevant licence category whatever vandalism may have been inflicted upon it.

"Wallhangers" are (or should be) a thing of the past.

jrandom

22nd March 2007, 17:56

Under the Act that has been in force for 15 years or so now (?) there is no such concept as "decommisioned".

Indeed.

From the Police Arms Manual:

The only situation where a firearm has been accepted as "deactivated" in New Zealand is where it has been sectionalised from end to end.

Dangerous Dane

22nd March 2007, 21:32

Just curious guys, how does one go about casting/ moulding a synthetic rifle stock? ie what materials do you need and where can they be purchased?

doc

22nd March 2007, 21:54

Wot a crock of shit that programme was!!
Arrrgh, bloody sensationalism reporting.:sick:
Rickards was guilty as fu.k
Yeah I watched part of it . I'm not shopping at those shops again they're responsible. I know where I can get honest answers. And don't need no friggin paperwork. Nicky Hagar (sounds a bit girly but he is on the rich list so who am I to judge, and that Ian Wishart chappie started it all. How's that for starting a conspiracy theory) Target is typical of modern Journalism there to attract the advertising dollar who cares about the real truth. Us punters know where the stuff is available aye, nudge nudge wink wink. But seriously the voter thinks it responsible journalism and will want BB guns banned next. have you seen the price of those aluminium baseball bats very reasonable

scumdog

22nd March 2007, 22:10

"Wallhangers" are (or should be) a thing of the past.

Aahh... not in this house matey!!:dodge:

Hans

22nd March 2007, 22:13

Just curious guys, how does one go about casting/ moulding a synthetic rifle stock? ie what materials do you need and where can they be purchased?

Why, what are you trying to do?

Wolf

22nd March 2007, 23:26

It would seem that "Target" is well named - they're drawing a lot of fire over their firearms episode in their viewer comments section.

Such great comments as:

The advertising for this episode was completely misleading and their lack of anything to show for their 'journalism' is entirely unsuprising given all of my experiences with firearms owners and vendors.

More like misleading advertising to me. I'm in half a mind to complain to the BSA. I expected to see some guns being shot and it was all rather a let down.

Target have mislead [sic] the public on what the show was going to be about, and I for one won't be watching this show again.

It strikes me and I am sure the rest of the community, as a bit of a double standard when a Program purporting to be looking after our rights in exposing misleading advertising and dodgy deals, Use the same methods to boost their ratings. “Shame on you Target”

And my three favourites:

Target owes me 30 minutes of my life back.

Perhaps Target will feature themselves in their next "Shame On You" segment for misleading people about the content of their firearms item.

They should stick with the panty sniffin' plumbers and leave the real issues to the grown-ups.

'twould seem they have shot themselves in the foot over this one...

jrandom

23rd March 2007, 10:13

Just curious guys, how does one go about casting/ moulding a synthetic rifle stock? ie what materials do you need and where can they be purchased?

You need an injection-molding machine. They're typically about the size of a small truck, and have a huge hydraulic piston that pushes steel plates together with several hundred tons of force before injecting molten plastic into cavities under high pressure at several hundred degrees.

Assuming you have a finalised design for your synthetic stock, the process of designing and machining mold tools for correct operation without sinkage, warping or bad filling will require an experienced mechanical engineering team and several weeks of work.

Or you could just go buy an ATI (http://www.atigunstocks.com/) synthetic stock. They make them for pretty much everything.

Mr Merde

23rd March 2007, 10:42

You need an injection-molding machine. They're typically about the size of a small truck, and have a huge hydraulic piston that pushes steel plates together with several hundred tons of force before injecting molten plastic into cavities under high pressure at several hundred degrees.

Assuming you have a finalised design for your synthetic stock, the process of designing and machining mold tools for correct operation without sinkage, warping or bad filling will require an experienced mechanical engineering team and several weeks of work.

Or you could just go buy an ATI (http://www.atigunstocks.com/) synthetic stock. They make them for pretty much everything.

Supposedly my field of expertise. Obtained a BEng a few years ago, specialising in mould and press design. Never used the degree.

From memory the moulds are the most expensive part of the whole process and can cost obscene amounts of cash. eg a mould for a polystyrene cup can easily cost up to $1 million. It all depends upon the quality of finish you require

Hans

23rd March 2007, 10:48

None of my business, but why plastic? I've gotta say I'm not a fan on anything else than work tools.

jrandom

23rd March 2007, 11:00

Supposedly my field of expertise. Obtained a BEng a few years ago, specialising in mould and press design. Never used the degree.

From memory the moulds are the most expensive part of the whole process...

I'm a typist (computer science major), but I've spent the last couple of years working on acoustic test software and hanging out with our mechanical engineering team during ongoing efforts to build high-end noise-cancelling headphones. If you think the mold-design process is a PITA for polystyrene cups, you should try making acoustically-active consumer audio products.

And yes, the molds are not cheap, hence the prevalence and necessity of fast 3D prototyping (http://www.objectivedesign.co.nz/) outfits in the product design validation process.

(I can recommend the guys at OD if anyone needs work of that nature done, by the way.)

jrandom

23rd March 2007, 11:17

None of my business, but why plastic?

Why a plastic gunstock? Lighter and tougher.

I have an ATI stock on my Mosin Nagant, for instance, because I like to take it out and shoot it, but don't want to munt up the original wood.

Pretty walnut stocks are for guns that you show off when your mates come round for a BBQ, not for guns that get dropped on rocks and spattered with mud and sand.

Wolf

23rd March 2007, 11:47

You need an injection-molding machine. They're typically about the size of a small truck, and have a huge hydraulic piston that pushes steel plates together with several hundred tons of force before injecting molten plastic into cavities under high pressure at several hundred degrees.

Assuming you have a finalised design for your synthetic stock, the process of designing and machining mold tools for correct operation without sinkage, warping or bad filling will require an experienced mechanical engineering team and several weeks of work.

Or you could just go buy an ATI (http://www.atigunstocks.com/) synthetic stock. They make them for pretty much everything.
If, however, you do opt to go the custom route and manage to get your moulds and the use of the machine: I can operate it for you.

Wolf

23rd March 2007, 11:56

Why a plastic gunstock? Lighter and tougher.

I have an ATI stock on my Mosin Nagant, for instance, because I like to take it out and shoot it, but don't want to munt up the original wood.

Pretty walnut stocks are for guns that you show off when your mates come round for a BBQ, not for guns that get dropped on rocks and spattered with mud and sand.
I had a look at the ATI stock for the Mosin-Nagant - looks great. Certainly transforms the weapon into a serious-looking hunting rifle.

Dangerous Dane

23rd March 2007, 12:55

Wolf

23rd March 2007, 14:06

There was a fella on trademe with a bunch of sinister looking toys a week ago, one of which was a custom enfield with a beautiful synthetic stock he'd produced himself. Was just curious about the process/ costs involved. Cheers
Depending on the synthetic used, perhaps he used a slab of synthetic material and shaped it using traditional means - cutting, drilling shaving and sanding.

Jonny Rotten

2nd April 2007, 20:58

right fellas as some of you may know i am moving to the far north of new zealsnd just south of cape reinga to a little town called hohoura........i was up there on the weekend with my .22 having a look over the farm for game to shoot so far what we have is ducks, hares, rabbits, possums, pigs, geese and goats.....my girlfriend and i are renovating a shed into a self contained unit which will be up for per night rent at a good rate in the late winter.....what i would like to know is who would be keen on driving up for a weekend hunt every now and again.....the farm backs on to a few thousand aches of D.O.C land and i have sorted out some local knollage to take us on a good hunt in this area.....

get back to me if you are keen....might be able to accomadate some people of over the duck shooting season if i get the B&B done by then....

we are also situated accoss the road from some of the best land based fishing spots in te country so fishing is also an option aswell

Drunken Monkey

2nd April 2007, 22:57

If anyone from Aucks is keen to take Mr Rotten up on his offer, let me know. We can chuck a few boom sticks in the back of the wagon and go a for a drive.

jrandom

3rd April 2007, 09:36

If anyone from Aucks is keen to take Mr Rotten up on his offer, let me know.

I'm definitely in. Always looking for new places up north to go for a hunt. Late winter works well for me, too. I probably won't be quite so frantically busy as I am now.

Mr Merde

3rd April 2007, 12:12

Wish I could but just bought some land in Franklin, spare cash is going to be as rare as rocking horse sh1t for a while.

On the good side, before I bought the place I saw wild turkeys on a neighbours land, pheasnts on the field next to mine and rabits all over the place.

No goats, pigs or deer but I'll have a look arouind and check with the locals.

Once I get permission from the local land owners I'll avail myself of some sporting shoots.

There is also a stretch of land next to mine that has the most perfect bit for shooting practice. 50 meters long into a 15 meter cliff face. Shooting point is a rock shelf. Gotta talk to the owner of the land.

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 00:27

In another thread I was asked a few questions about technique and training. Whilst not an expert or a qualified trainer, I do have the benifit of 25 years of experience in the sport of pistol shooting to draw upon.

Do the rest of you that have an interest in shooting, think that you could tolerate an old fart dishing out some advice?

I dont for one moment think I am the alpha or omega of information but I have made all the mistakes already and may help you avoid them.

PM me or answer to this thread.

Mr :shit:

jrandom

11th April 2007, 09:43

I definitely need tips on pistol shooting.

You spoke of not needing grip strength - I do understand that, you might note that my question regarding accuracy spoke of grip stability, not strength. Achieving that clean circular/figure-of-eight type wobble and breaking the trigger at the perfect spot every time is what I find difficult. But then again, I've had no training whatsoever.

And I'm a rank beginner, so yes, when I can keep everything within the 8-ring on an ISSF Standard Pistol target I'll be rapt.

I'd buy something to dry-fire with, but it seems like I'd have to spend a couple hundred dollars or more on an airgun or similar. I'd rather just wait, spend that money on my pistol safe in 3 months time, and then sit in front of the TV practicing with a real trigger.

My current tentative plan is to buy a Glock 34 to shoot IPSC Production with, and take it from there. On the face of it, action shooting looks like more fun than bullseye. I've shot a G17 and a G35. I hear what everyone says about Glock triggers, but, shrug... I don't think I'll regret buying a Glock, and it's a cheap and reliable way to start out. The alternative is a nice 6" .357 revolver. I'm somewhat undecided.

At the moment, I'm putting 200-300 rounds through the club's Browning Buck Mark once a week and (occasionally) 25 or so rounds through a friend's Taurus PT92, just to make some proper-sized holes. Typically, I'll manage 8" or so groups with the Taurus. With careful attention, shooting from an isosceles stance, I can keep 100 rounds at a time from the .22 within the 7-ring, now, which was my very first goal.

I shoot at Central Shooters in downtown Auckland.

Wolf

11th April 2007, 10:20

25 or so rounds through a friend's Taurus PT92, just to make some proper-sized holes.
I've heard good things about the Taurus PT92, it's more than just a Beretta copy these days - they've made their own improvements to the design. Relatively inexpensive, too, I hear.

Sniper

11th April 2007, 10:33

Anyone got a Ruger mini 14 they may want to part ways with sometime? :whistle:

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 11:13

Trying to think of where to start.

As I said I am not a coach.

There are as far as I can see 4 basic areas to pistol shooting.

1) The grip (including trigger control)
2) The sighting picture
3) The stance
4) Breathing.

You asked about stability. That comes about as a result of perfecting all four areas. What use having the perfect grip when your body is unbalanced and creating fatigue? Or you dont have a sight picture? Or you arent breathing properly.

What did I do to assist in attaining a good grip? I stopped, listened, read and applied what I learnt. Hopefully I can be of benifit to you.

FIRSTLY BEFORE ALL ELSE. MAKE SURE THE PISTOL IS NOT LOADED AND IS IN A SAFE CONDITION TO TRAIN WITH.

1) The Grip.
Strange as it may seem, just holding a pistol in the correct manner needs to be learnt. It isnt a matter of picking up the pistol and pulling the trigger, not if you want to get any good at it anyway.

To attain the correct grip. Take the pistol with your non shooting hand, by the barrel and seat it in the shooting hang by pushing the grip into the V between the thumb and the forefinger. Your fingers placed around the grip so that pressure on the hand is felt on the fleshy part at the base of the thumb and the second joints of the 3rd and 4th finger. Your trigger finger should be free of the pistol except where it comes into contact with the trigger. Your little finger shouldnt apply any pressure at all.

Spend some time just placing the pistol into your shooting hand. It doesnt take long until it feels right and becomes instinctual.

As with all aspects in this game it is about muscle memory. Your body will come to know when everything is right.

Fish, you said that you go to the range once a week and rattle off about 200-300 rounds. Thats fine for a bit of fun but as a traning aid it is way too much. If you read books by the top shooters you will find that they spend about 80% of their time just dry firing their pistols. Getting all the actions needed honed to as perfect as possible.

Take your time. Each shot should take no more than 7 seconds from raising the pistol to actually firing the shot. Dont hold the pistol and just fire off the mag. lower it between shots. Speed will come once you can place your shots. Make sure you have a good sight picture. Your body is in a comfortable position and not straining. Relax and take your time.

If you want to build up your grip a little get hold of a squash ball and just squeeze it in your shooting hand. Thinking of it, bike riding builds up the correct grip also.

Let me know if this is the sort of info you wanted and I will continue.

All you others feel free to jump in with comments, critiques, questions etc.

Mr :shit:

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 11:16

I've heard good things about the Taurus PT92, it's more than just a Beretta copy these days - they've made their own improvements to the design. Relatively inexpensive, too, I hear.

Yes they are very good guns. The finish on them both externally and internally is excellent ands as you say they are not expensive.

They also shoot very well, accurate and reliable.

Mr :shit:

scumdog

11th April 2007, 11:45

Anyone got a Ruger mini 14 they may want to part ways with sometime? :whistle:

USE to have one, I just hope you're not expecting top accuracy with it.

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 11:49

USE to have one, I just hope you're not expecting top accuracy with it.

Have to a lot of work to one to get it anywhere near accurate. Still fun to use though.

My idea of a nice semi if I could ever afford one would be the M1A1 chambered in .308. 20 round mag and with a little work accurate further than my old eyes are capable of discerning.

Mr :shit:

Sniper

11th April 2007, 11:58

USE to have one, I just hope you're not expecting top accuracy with it.

Yup, not planning on it being accurate. Just a bit of fun

Have to a lot of work to one to get it anywhere near accurate. Still fun to use though.

My idea of a nice semi if I could ever afford one would be the M1A1 chambered in .308. 20 round mag and with a little work accurate further than my old eyes are capable of discerning.

Mr :shit:

Nice choice Mr :shit: Yup, like I mentioned, not really wanting one for accuracy reasons, more sentimental reasons

S

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 12:32

Something I just remembered, short term going.

I had a problem when I first started pistol shooting with raising the pistol to shooting level. I usually raised it too high or too low.

An old time shooter put a string around my wrist and to my ankle. It was just long enough to go to the correct level for me. If I over raised the pistol I felt a tug on the string. trick was to get it just taut. Took a few weeks but it became second nature to only raise the pistol so far.

The same can be done for sweeping targets. Teach youirself to swing your body not just move your shooting arm

Sniper

11th April 2007, 12:37

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 12:49

If I may add to the grip blurb while shooting a pistol. As once told to me, a good firm grip, much the same as a good handshake is enough to ensure you don't tire your hands out and that the slide inertia will return the barrel to roughly the same area as it was pointing.

Feel free to correct me on this

No correction needed.

Jump in with any comments. Fish asked for help and I am trying to do so but I tend to run away with my thoughts and dont quite explain myself.

I shoot SAA and the pistols are designed to roll in the hand. The little finger controls this roll and aids in retutning the revolver to shooting position. If the grip were too tight then there is no way this could happen.

Sniper

11th April 2007, 13:29

No correction needed.

Jump in with any comments. Fish asked for help and I am trying to do so but I tend to run away with my thoughts and dont quite explain myself.

I shoot SAA and the pistols are designed to roll in the hand. The little finger controls this roll and aids in retutning the revolver to shooting position. If the grip were too tight then there is no way this could happen.

Cheers mate.

Yup, most pistols after 1985 (I believe) were designed to fit in the palm of an average hand and the little and ring fingers are used to pull it back in alingment. This is from what the tinternet told me...

S

jrandom

11th April 2007, 13:30

I shoot SAA and the pistols are designed to roll in the hand. The little finger controls this roll and aids in retutning the revolver to shooting position.

I would imagine that a somewhat different grip might be necessary for, say, double-taps in IPSC, but I wouldn't know precisely what.

I've found that a lightish grip, allowing the pistol to surprise me with the trigger break and then roll back through the recoil gives much better accuracy when shooting centerfire bullseye-style.

It feels better to me not to lock any joints, but I'm really not sure about appropriate stance. The cops I've seen shooting their G17s at the range seem to have the whole deathgrip Weaver stance thing going on. If you could shred a paper target by glaring at it and gritting your teeth, they'd be getting full marks every time...

And just for the record, I don't like the PT92's ergonomics. The grip feels too short and narrow, and my trigger finger wants to curl around too far. The SIG P226 has the best ergonomics and trigger feel of any centerfire auto that I've shot to date, but in that price range I'd rather look for a good 1911.

Anyone out there got a Kimber or STI they're willing to let me have a play with?

Sniper

11th April 2007, 13:33

And just for the record, I don't like the PT92's ergonomics. The grip feels too short and narrow, and my trigger finger wants to curl around too far. The SIG P226 has the best ergonomics and trigger feel of any centerfire auto that I've shot to date, but in that price range I'd rather look for a good 1911.

Anyone out there got a Kimber or STI they're willing to let me have a play with?

Shoot a P99, fantastic pistol, comfortable and ergonomic (As hard as a deadly thing can be) I wasn't allowed to fire it but fairly accurate too from what Ive been told.

Sniper

11th April 2007, 13:38

As I've mentioned. Pistol shooting is still a new concept on me, feel free to offer any corrections and advice please

Drunken Monkey

11th April 2007, 13:57

My idea of a nice semi if I could ever afford one would be the M1A1 chambered in .308. 20 round mag and with a little work accurate further than my old eyes are capable of discerning.

Haven't you just described an M14??

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 13:58

I would imagine that a somewhat different grip might be necessary for, say, double-taps in IPSC, but I wouldn't know precisely what.

I've found that a lightish grip, allowing the pistol to surprise me with the trigger break and then roll back through the recoil gives much better accuracy when shooting centerfire bullseye-style.

It feels better to me not to lock any joints, but I'm really not sure about appropriate stance. The cops I've seen shooting their G17s at the range seem to have the whole deathgrip Weaver stance thing going on. If you could shred a paper target by glaring at it and gritting your teeth, they'd be getting full marks every time...

And just for the record, I don't like the PT92's ergonomics. The grip feels too short and narrow, and my trigger finger wants to curl around too far. The SIG P226 has the best ergonomics and trigger feel of any centerfire auto that I've shot to date, but in that price range I'd rather look for a good 1911.

Anyone out there got a Kimber or STI they're willing to let me have a play with?

I've never really gotten on with the 9mm. I prefer the heavier calibers. Norinco make a good copy of the 1911. The P226 is an exception. a lovely pistol to shoot. They make a .22 version now that is 90% the size of the 226. It is called the Mosquito and sells for about $900. As to grip again. I also depends on the size of your hand. Best to find what you feel comforatble with. You can always buy aftermarket versions.

I quite like the double stack 1911 clones. 12 .45 rounds is nice. Price tag of 2500 though.

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 13:59

Haven't you just described an M14??

Civilian version. Not allowed M14 here in NZ, not to fire anyway.

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 14:02

Cheers mate.

Yup, most pistols after 1985 (I believe) were designed to fit in the palm of an average hand and the little and ring fingers are used to pull it back in alingment. This is from what the tinternet told me...

S

Check out Col Colts pistols from about 1851 onwards. They have the nicest grips for control of a single action going. no one has bettered them yet.

The 1860's pistols just fit the hand and handle like a dream. The 1873 models again just work.

Hans

11th April 2007, 14:26

I have to agree I'm a fan of 45acp as well. Very effective, yet slow/silencers!/, cheap and generally sorted. Glock 36 for me as far as work goes. Any number of 1911 versions/clones/ for pleasure. A lot of 9mms don't fit my hand either. Too wide due to two rows in the clip...

Wolf

11th April 2007, 19:36

Shoot a P99, fantastic pistol, comfortable and ergonomic (As hard as a deadly thing can be) I wasn't allowed to fire it but fairly accurate too from what Ive been told.
Now we're talkin'!

Great reputation, feels good in the hand (haven't fired one, though) - a very natural point for me (YMMV). I own a CP99 - the .177 cal CO2-powered version - and the only thing I don't like about it is that it's CO2-powered (I'd prefer pneumatic for an air pistol).

I'd love to have a go with a real 9mm P99. Knowing how it points and fits my hand is only part of the equation. Handling is an entirely different matter, and I'm not discerning that by firing a gas-operated CP99.

jrandom

11th April 2007, 19:51

P99, fantastic pistol...

I'm sorry.

The P99 is a fine pistol, I'm sure, but I just can't get over the fact that it looks (http://www.waltheramerica.com/images/firearms/WAP65022_lrg.jpg) like a Hi-Point (http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/SThipoint_100605A.jpg). :sick:

Sniper

11th April 2007, 19:54

Looks nothing like the same you heathen :p

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 19:57

I love putting that title in. Really tongue in cheek.

So where do I go from here?

Teaching by remote something so hands on as pistol shooting is quite a hard exercise.

It comes across so dry.

One thing I have noticed with new shooters is taht they start off with such enthusiasm and then tail off when they see little improvement.

It takes time so by all means have fun. Play around with different targets, If you can shoot at different distances.

Start at 10 meters and gradually move back to 25 or evedn more. Dont let anyone tell you that pistols are not accurate at distance, Elmer Keith, Ed Mcgivern and some of those old time shooters could hit targets at 600 yards with pistols having 2-6 inch barrels. Its all in the shooter.

Ed McGivern still holds the record for the fastest time with a double action revolver. 6 shots in 45/100ths of a second. All holes could appaerntly be covered by "a silver half dollar".

I used to shoot groups of 4" at 100 yards standing and firing from an isoceles position. I'm not a real good shooter.

At my club I was one of the average shooters. On a UIT target I would score from the high 80's to the mid 90's. That is every shot in at least the 9 and 10 ring at 25 yards.

Practice raising your arm whilst holding a can of beans or similar. Dont hold for more than 5 seconds. Lower it between "shots".

Practice with your eyesight. pick a few points at various distances and heights. Teach your eyes to be able to focus on them rapidly.

This is especially true for action events where you may have to change targets quite quickly.

Find the stance that you feel comfortable with. We are all different. Lean into your stance. I have seen a lot of newbies in all aspects of shooting leaning away from the firearm, doing this is going to make you miss as your body is already anticipating the recoil. I had a Tompson Contender in 7mm TCU. It kicked like a mule until I realised that I was anticipating the recoil and leaning away. Changed my style and the recoil whilst noticable, didnt affect me so much. Recently I shot one of the new .500 S & W revolvers and a 45-70 revolver single handed. Again the recoil was fierce but controlable. I watched a good shooter, half my size double tap the .500 S & W. He had no problems.

If you have one, then learn your gun. They all feel different. They all handle differently. Get to know it so that when you pick it up you will know instinctively how it feels.

When I was training for skittle shooting, a rapid fire event, I used to sit watching TV with my .45 auto in my hand. Constantly raising it to firing point. It got to be a habit to raise it to just the riht height. It then became just a matter of fine tuning the sight picture as I fired. FWIW my best time for 5 skittles off a 1 meter wide table was 10 seconds. The septics were doing it in half that time.

When going to a shoot be it competition or training, take time to make sure you have all the equipment you will need. Readyness pays off. 2 years ago I rushed to get ready. Got down to the competition in Kati Kati and realised that I had left the cylinders back in Auckland. DUH!!!!!

I will call this a day for this little booklet :bye:

Once again please give me feedback. Tell me your experiences. Tell me your training regeimes. Talking to ones self is easy but very close to self abuse. Not really fullfilling. Critise my writings. I am 50 years old and still consider myself on the uphill climb of a learning curve.

Mr :shit:

Swoop

11th April 2007, 21:07

Dont let anyone tell you that pistols are not accurate at distance, Elmer Keith, Ed Mcgivern and some of those old time shooters could hit targets at 600 yards with pistols having 2-6 inch barrels. Its all in the shooter.
I've been saying that around here for a while... the "I know better because I train at three metres" brigade will have a field day with a statement like that:rofl:

As for the M-14. There are quite afew around with semi-only capability rather than the original select fire capability.
Watched a rather impressive downhill shot, at a decent distance, from one of these some years back. The shooter was still rather hung-over and forgot to bring along his mags that morning, so used it single shot... The goat was none the wiser of this though!

Good write up Mr Guano! Keep them coming!

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 21:15

I've been saying that around here for a while... the "I know better because I train at three metres" brigade will have a field day with a statement like that:rofl:

As for the M-14. There are quite afew around with semi-only capability rather than the original select fire capability.
Watched a rather impressive downhill shot, at a decent distance, from one of these some years back. The shooter was still rather hung-over and forgot to bring along his mags that morning, so used it single shot... The goat was none the wiser of this though!

Good write up Mr Guano! Keep them coming!

Here is another useless piece of information I have picked up over the years.

Early Colt revolvers were sighted in for distances we would consider long range nowadays.

The Walker Colt was perfectly capable of accuracy up to 200 yards.

The 1851-1873 revolvers all left the factory with their sights set at 50 yards.

In US Bullseye shooting, normally done with a .45 auto, if you cant shoot a 2" group at 50 yards you wont even figure in the ratings. Thats one handed shooting not weaver stance or isoceles.

Mr :shit:

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 22:01

Tonight is the first night for a long time I havent had something that needed doing.

So how did I spend it?

Sat here in the workshop refreshing the posts and working on my replacement grips for my pistols.

Scored some antler last month and decided to make from scratch some new grips for my SAA's.

Bloody hard stuff to cut. Snapped a few coping saw blades already.

Finally have them roughed out. Now to get the sander ready and start the real work.

Anyone out there in shooting land got some antlers lying around that they want to get rid of please think of me.

My first attempt is bound to stuff up.

I was hoping for some sort of discussion in the firearms thread but this didnt eventuate. Oh well there will always be another day.

Swoop, thanks for the support. It gets awfully lonely out here in the depths of Sth Auck. Felt for a while as though I was preaching to the converted or even a mirror.

I'll talk shooters or shooting or ballistics or reloading at the drop of a hat.

please someone drop a hat.

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 22:13

I...

As for the M-14. There are quite afew around with semi-only capability rather than the original select fire capability.
Watched a rather impressive downhill shot, at a decent distance, from one of these some years back. The shooter was still rather hung-over and forgot to bring along his mags that morning, so used it single shot... The goat was none the wiser of this though!

Good write up Mr Guano! Keep them coming!

I thought that the M14 even when converted to semi only could still be put back to select. This is why Springfield make the M1A1 as it is and always will be semi auto only.

Looked at the Norinco version of the M1A1 but Gun City are asking stupid prices for them, especially more so when the sell in Canada for CAN$350 each.

It wasnt so long ago that the US government was giving these rifles (M1A1) away in the civilian marksmanship project.

I have a M1 carbine and would love the M1A1 to pretty closely have a matched set.

I have been thinking of 3 gun military competitions lately and would love the M1A1 for this. Along with a mlitary style pump action shotgun and a .45 semi auto.

In WW1 the US Army had battalions equiped with shotguns. One man shooting and another loading. They used buckshot (ie 9 .38 caliber balls). They were so devastating, moreso than machine guns, that the Germans complained that they were unfair. Early WMD.

Mr :shit:

Storm

11th April 2007, 22:17

Mr Merde

11th April 2007, 22:37

Clunk- my hat just dropped :bleh:

Seriously, many thanks for the above info on how to "get good"- I am wanting to know a bit more about pistol shooting in general and found your advice quite un-dry :)

Whats this? Someone dropped something.

I'm going to, over the next few days, cover the 4 items I see as basic to learning to shoot pistol. If at any time feel free to butt in, correct me, question me or even take the piss.

What I will cover is basic stuff applicable to all aspects of the sport, if anyone out here needs specifics on any particular discipline then ask and I will try and do my best.

Storm

What discipline interests you?

I am a firm believer that in order to get good everyone should learn what we jokingly refer to as the "heavy breathing" side of the sport, once they have passed basic safety of course. That is the UIT style target shooting.

The best training one can do is "dry firing" ie going thru the motions with an unloaded firearm or with dummy rounds. Its all about repitition.

I bet those of you who have been riding for a while would find it hard to explain all the movements and such you perform when actually riding. Its become almost automatic. That is the secret to getting really good with pistol. Not thinking.

Imagine it if you had to think of every action when riding. You would get bogged down with trivialities. Pistol shooting is the same. I want to know that the pistol is at the right height so I can concentrate on getting my sight picture. I want to know I am controling my breathing so that I can concentrate on squeezing that trigger and achieving the supprise break.

Tomorrow I will cover the second of my 4 points.

I ahve to say it again , I am not an expert. just a really enthusiastic amateur. I can point you in the right direction as I have already made all the mistakes that you will.

Mr :shit:

Wolf

11th April 2007, 23:13

Looks nothing like the same you heathen :p
Not remotely the same. The Walther is a stylish and well-made weapon, the Hi-Point is cheap ugly crap.

I've wanted a Walther pistol for years, always liked them. My previous favourite pistol was the P-38/P1 (depending on when it was made), quite liked the P5 and now my favourite pistol is the P99.

I've also had a long-term desire to own various Walther rifles, air pistols and .22 competition pistols.

Walther GMbH kindly sent me a cloth "Walther" patch and a selection of their publications, free of charge, when I wrote expressing an interest in their products. When the hat that the patch was on got lost or nicked, I requested (and got) a free replacement patch. I finally got my Walther (well, Umarex, nowadays after the buy-out) pistol - only the CP99 but one day I hope to get one of their rimfire or centrefire weapons. The rimfire is negotiable but I'm sure you can guess which centrefire I'm aiming for...

Swoop

12th April 2007, 08:33

I thought that the M14 even when converted to semi only could still be put back to select. This is why Springfield make the M1A1 as it is and always will be semi auto only.

Looked at the Norinco version of the M1A1 but Gun City are asking stupid prices for them, especially more so when the sell in Canada for CAN$350 each.
No. The M-14 cannot be converted back to original spec' select fire without the lug under the receiver still being in place and also having the transfer bar in your posession. Both were removed to comply with our regulations.

I used to own a Norinco M-14, many years ago. A decent, heavy rifle. Lovely piece of work!

Mr Merde

12th April 2007, 08:51

No. The M-14 cannot be converted back to original spec' select fire without the lug under the receiver still being in place and also having the transfer bar in your posession. Both were removed to comply with our regulations.

I used to own a Norinco M-14, many years ago. A decent, heavy rifle. Lovely piece of work!

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

I'm jealous. You used to own one and I want to own one. How does one do a miserable emoticon?

Mr :shit:

Sniper

12th April 2007, 13:25

Each to their own. I found this an interesting read even though I don't really bother with stuff like this

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

Mr Merde

12th April 2007, 13:48

Each to their own. I found this an interesting read even though I don't really bother with stuff like this

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

So did I. Great read. Massad Ayoob is one of the top US competition shooters and has written a lot of articles etc on pistol shooting. I've used his works in aiding me to find out where I had been screwing up.

Sniper you have saved me a lot of writing and for this I thank you. Never been too good at putting down in words what is running through my head.

To all of you who have been reading the stuff I have been writing, please go to this site.

I am always around lurking on this thread so I am available for particular questions if needed.

There are so many of these septics that I have listened top. Gerry Mikiluk was a particular favourite. A revolver specialist. I watched this man start with his revolver holstered, draw, fire 6 shots, reload, fire 6 more shot, reload and then fire a final 6 shots. 18 rounds in total, 2 reloads (from speedloaders) and from the holster. Target was 15 meters away. All rounds were in the black. Total time taken from memory was about 10 seconds.

There is a young lad in the US who shoots in CAS. Goes by the name of Lead Dispenser. Recently I watched a video of him speed shooting two single action pistols, each loaded with 5 rounds and starting with both pistols holstered. Target was a steel plate about 10 meters away. Total time taken approx 4 seconds. Thats 10 shots with each one in single action.

Take a look at this site and some of the videos on it.

http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html.

Mr :shit:

Sniper

12th April 2007, 13:50

Cheers Mr :shit:

Bloody good site, cheers mate

Wolf

12th April 2007, 19:42

Each to their own. I found this an interesting read even though I don't really bother with stuff like this

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

Cheers, Sniper, I'd read this article before and found it bloody handy.

When I first went to the pistol club I was told to use the "quail grip" but I found it very inaccurate. I read the above article and tried Mr Ayoob's suggestion for a firm grip and found it much better - stabilised my wrist and arm as well (this was using air pistols and soft air pistols at home so recoil, muzzle flip etc weren't issues but the change in the way the pistol felt and my body worked was dramatic and my accuracy improved).

Mumbles

12th April 2007, 21:19

Been shooting pistols for about 9 years
Here’s my 2cents

Wish I had started with some UIT (never have maybe never will) would have given me better grounding in how to aim

Shoot as many different guns during club days as you can, most members will let you shoot their gun with factory ammo, the more guns YOU shoot the better your ability to understand what you like and be able to make decisions based on your own experience and not someone else’s.

What discipline do you want to shoot? UIT, IPSC, ACTION etc can decide what gun you buy, one gun can do all of these 9mm Glocks are a nice medium.(errr glocks)

Caliber of you gun has its pros and cons like making power factor, the size of the hole in the target (this can be a big plus for the older shooter who finds smaller holes harder to see :shit: ) this can also reflect the cost to buy or reload so effects the total cost of your shooting experience.

Capacity of your gun, bigger the mag in IPSC and Action the better your times most of the guys shooting race guns (like the old STI) have 20 – 30 round mag’s shooting large courses of fire they don’t have to make lots of mag changes, if your shooting a single stack 45 your going to have 7, 9 and or 10 round mags you going to have a few mag changes (this is fun but wont help your times)

I shoot IPSC and have gone from a 9mm CZ75 to a Para P16 40 the only reason I stopped shooting the CZ was I’m left handed and needed the ambi safety as had to change my grip to take it off, the Para is 40 cal has the ambi safety 16 rounds and make major. (oh yeah, and it was handed to me as I walked into the gun store and told “here take this we need to get it off our license so we can import our next shipment” “well just put it on your account and pay it off” (I had shot the 40 and liked it) now wish I had purchased the Para 45 as my eye sight is getting worse and having trouble seeing the holes in the targets or more so not seeing when I miss the target.

All this talk about grip…. Just ask lots of questions read and check out the net, get lots of ideas then see what works on the range, when you find something that works get someone who you feel is a good competitive shooter and asked them to watch you shoot, they will be able to give you pointers.

Breathing? When your running around the range shooting IPSC it’s a real good idea to breath :p

DON’T practice bad habits as you will learn them, keep asking ‘stupid’ questions as the more answers you get the better…. And there is no such thing as a stupid question!

#1 Rule. For GODS SAKE BE SAFE ON THE RANGE!

:done:

Mr Merde

12th April 2007, 21:33

Mumbles,

Great have another pistol shooter with us. Its bloody hard to try and explain in words what I just do. Thanks for the help.

The rest of you.

I've got two days of very quick training to do. Just been invited to the Auckland Pistol Club on Sunday for a "Steel Challenge"> They have a CAS (Cowboy Action Shooting) section and want a few of us to join in. Never shot this event before so it should be fun.

From what I have been told there are 7 stages. Each stage has 5 steel targets at varios distances and they must be shot in an order. You have 5 runs at each stage and your worst time is discarded. So in all about 245 rounds of ammo to be used in the day. I happen to have 265 rounds left. A mixed bag of 210 black powder loaded .44 mag and 55 .44 smokeless.

Its a go.

Nothing like burnibg powder as fast as possible in a competition.

Western costume a prerequisite for us of course.

Should be great fun as it will be something almost new.

Yahoo,, Cowboys rule.

Where else can a grown man dress up as a cowboy, shoot real guns, shout ridiculously, AND NOT GET ARRESTED?

Swoop

13th April 2007, 09:11

Where else can a grown man dress up as a cowboy, shoot real guns, shout ridiculously, AND NOT GET ARRESTED?
This is the area of most concern with the CASS people...
That, AND the fact that they have to go around calling themselves by "period" names...
Quite strange.

A piece of advice re: shooting irons for any discipline.
Purchase the best/most accurate handgun that you can afford. Reduce the chances of "the metal bit" being the inaccurate part of the chain. I have seen good shooters being disillusioned by their tool. <---Hmm, perhaps I should rephrase that?

Mr Merde

13th April 2007, 09:18

.........That, AND the fact that they have to go around calling themselves by "period" names...

Quite strange.

A piece of advice re: shooting irons for any discipline.
Purchase the best/most accurate handgun that you can afford. Reduce the chances of "the metal bit" being the inaccurate part of the chain. I have seen good shooters being disillusioned by their tool. <---Hmm, perhaps I should rephrase that?

"period" names are strange, took a while to get used to this aspect.

Is it any stranger than signing onto an electronic chat group with a name like Mr Merde or even Swoop? :dodge: :mellow: :done:

I agree with buying the best firearm you can afford. You pay for what you get.

Swoop

13th April 2007, 09:23

"period" names are strange, took a while to get used to this aspect.

Is it any stranger than signing onto an electronic chat group with a name like Mr Merde or even Swoop?
Quite true, I was keeping this in mind while writing that post!
The thing is calling yourself "Doc Holliday", "Billy The Kid," etc seems a little odd, especially when the owner of the moniker may look nothing like the person portrayed.

Perhaps Swoop The Kid or Doc Merde might stroll into town? :rofl:

Mr Merde

13th April 2007, 09:42

Quite true, I was keeping this in mind while writing that post!
The thing is calling yourself "Doc Holliday", "Billy The Kid," etc seems a little odd, especially when the owner of the moniker may look nothing like the person portrayed.

Perhaps Swoop The Kid or Doc Merde might stroll into town? :rofl:

Swoop the Kid and Doc Merde, I like it.

I actually agree that using historical names is pretencious. It galls me to see some of the CAS boys struting around because they have adopted the name of some famous personality.

There is one that springs to mind who has adopted the name of a Confederate General. He almost had a fit when I started mentioning that this particular general was lucky not to have been cashiered after the battle of Gettysburg as Gen. Robert E Lee put a lot of blame on him for not doing his job. Cavalry were the eyes and ears of armies in those days and this General just went his own way leaving Lee blind.

This dick in CAS swaggers around in costume of a general and loves the sound of his own voice.

ANyway

DOC Merde has work to do for 5 min.

Wolf

13th April 2007, 10:55

I actually agree that using historical names is pretencious. It galls me to see some of the CAS boys struting around because they have adopted the name of some famous personality.
Parodising them (Doc Merde, Jimmy the Kid etc) or using "period names" as in picking names that were popular at the time (William/Bill/Billy, Samuel/Sam, Joshua, George, James etc) would be fine, and perhaps doing a mix 'n' match to get full names - William Earp, James Cody or whatever - would be all right, but pinching the real name of a famous person (outside of going to a "Come as Your Favourite Historical Character" costume party or performing in a period play/movie) is downright pretentious.

Kind of reminds me of all the New Agers I know who all used to be Alexander the Great in a previous life - I'm beginning to wonder how many "souls" the chap had, considering all these people are concurrently alive... No wonder he had the moniker "the Great" - by my calculation he was at least 23 guys (and girls, apparently) rolled into one!

If I were into the CAS crowd I'd come up with a name like "Apache Jim", hinting that I have something like Buffalo Bill's reputation vis a vis killing Apaches and James/Jim being a common name in that era.

I do the same with SCA/NAAMA personas.

Mr Merde

13th April 2007, 11:30

A lot of my mates in the CAS game have tried to come up with semi humourous names.

One friend uses the name "one Eye" because he only has ....

Another, Patrick, calls himseld "Cow Pat"

These and similar I can put up with. Even names like "wyatt Burp" are fun but to call yourself William Cody or Pat Garrett to me seems wrong.

Anyway enough of my griping

Back to the shooting.

Any one out there ever shot a "Steel Callenge" match?

If so what can I expect? Hints, tips would be appreciated.

Scheiße-Haus,

Maison de Merde,

Casa de mierda

Mr :shit: at the above

jrandom

13th April 2007, 11:36

By the way, chaps, I'm following this discussion with great interest. I don't have time at the moment to contribute, but once things have settled down with the new business I'm sure I'll manage better :)

Swoop

13th April 2007, 14:28

Any one out there ever shot a "Steel Callenge" match?

If so what can I expect? Hints, tips would be appreciated.
I cannot claim to have shot a full nationals/regional competition of Steel Challenge, but all of the stages have been done at club level.

Expect a hell of a lot of standing around and then a brief amount of time "after the beep"...
If the ranges are good (like Hamilton) then you will get through much faster.
There is no right or wrong way to approach each stage http://www.steelchallenge.com/steelchallenge/2006/stages.htm as it is a bit of a puzzle that can be tackled in differing manners by each competitor.

I favour right to left, if possible, but each to their own. I have enjoyed NRA matches greatly and these take my preference if the choice exists.

As with each match, be set up well ahead of time and everything ready to go. It never fails to amaze me with those who show up and go into panic mode over little things. The sport is a mind game, and you must be prepared and relaxed. Stretching exercises are important, particularly at the beginning of the day.

Sorry, rambling on. Will stop now!

Mr Merde

13th April 2007, 15:48

Swoop

Thanks for that. CAS is fairly similar in that we shoot steels.

Relax. Probably the best advice I have had.

Cheers mate.

Mr :shit:

pritch

14th April 2007, 23:11

Any one out there ever shot a "Steel Callenge" match?

Only once and then with a revolver. Maybe again fairly soon though.

Wolf

15th April 2007, 00:28

Anyone in the local area with a .30-30? Just doing some tidying and found some boxes of Winchester .30-30 that I don't need.

jrandom

15th April 2007, 08:47

Anyone in the local area with a .30-30?

Yes, please.

How many rounds?

Wolf

15th April 2007, 09:05

Yes, please.

How many rounds?
40 rounds. Winchester "Super-X", 170-grain Silver Tip Expanding. Dunno what your preferred weight and style of bullet is, but you can at least practise with them.

Mr Merde

15th April 2007, 21:13

Anyone in the local area with a .30-30? Just doing some tidying and found some boxes of Winchester .30-30 that I don't need.

Winchester 94 carbine ok?

Papakura, welcome to borrow it if you need to.

PM me

Mr :shit:

Mr Merde

15th April 2007, 21:16

Sorry misread the post or misunderstood more likely. Lost my reading glasses.

Always on the lookout for ammo.

Mr :shit:

Mr Merde

15th April 2007, 21:30

Well I shot my first steel challenge today.

The longer ranges stumped me. Not used to shooting them fast.

Stupid me stripped and cleaned the pistols yesterday and forgot to put all the screws back in one of them. No pressure on the hammerspring so no strike on the cartridge. Did the whole mathch with the one SAA after that. Not fast but sometimes not too bad. Couple of stages where the semi auto race guns were doing about 4 seconds for the five targets I was in the mid 8 second range. Not bad for a pistol that kicks like a mule, belches fire and smoke and has to be cocked manually every time.

i was shooting it all with black powder so I raised a few smiles with the IPSC boys. All good. They realised us CAS shooters are just as safety orientated as they are and a few of them are coming out to try CAS, so they informed us.

It was a good day at the Auckland Pistol Club and they are a great bunch of people.

Mr :shit:

Sniper

15th April 2007, 21:37

Bloody good read mate. Well done

Swoop

16th April 2007, 08:31

ghost

16th April 2007, 08:35

Glad to hear that you enjoyed yourself!

Rule #1 of gunfighting: Have a gun.
Rule #2: It must go bang every time you pull the trigger.

I'll try and dig up the USMC "Rules for gunfighting"! I believe I still have them at home somewhere...

Hows this?

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of calibre, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
9.5 Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

11 and 21, classic advise for anyone......

Sniper

16th April 2007, 08:44

Hahaha, I remember reading those years ago. Bloody good post, cheers Ghost

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 08:45

For your words of wisdom I thank you.

Felt really stupid. Out comes my second gun and ........ click , click click.

If anyone knows single action revolvers, there is a screw at the bottom of the grip frame that joins the two parts together. That is the screw I forgot.

Found out that with out it the hammer spring doesnt work properly and you do not get a full strike to the primer. Hence, no bang, bang. Cost me 30 seconds that did.

Duh............

Oh well now to clean the guns properly, oil and grease them. Next shoot on the 28th and 29th April in Taupo. A proper CAS event run by another very enthusiastic club. This time I will be camping on the range so I pray its not wet or too cold.

Mr :shit:

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 12:16

Following the SHITLOADS of fun I had bunny shooting with a loaner Winchester 1200 pump action... I have just now acquired one of my very own.

Linky thing here (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=95198321)

... now I just have to explain it to the fun police...

ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLRIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

Here bunny bunny bunny....

Wolf

16th April 2007, 12:28

For bunnies (and possums or other small game) my preferred weapon is a moderated Brno bolt action with subsonic rounds. They don't even know they're being shot at. Never been in the situation myself, but a friend was sayng about being down-wind of the watering hole and bagging 7 bunnies with a moderated bolt action using subsonics before the other bunnies realised something was amiss and scarpered.

Peter: great watering hole, eh Floppsy? Floppsy? You OK? Oh FUCK!

It would be interesting to see if I can get similar results if I ever encounter a bunch of bunnies all in the same place.

I do know that you can fire 5 shots at a possum from my rifle and it'll just sit there looking at the pretty light (some silly bugger (me) had knocked the sights to 300m range and the bullets were probably only passing over him by a slim margin) but discharge a semi auto loaded with standard .22lr and if you miss, the bugger will take off fast...

Sniper

16th April 2007, 12:35

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 12:36

I have one of those Norinco copies of the BRNO, even uses the same mags, and love it also. Bit of a crap suppressor but with subs it doesnt matter too much.

Used it on possums a bit. Rabbits a few times, plinking lots.

Smokin

16th April 2007, 13:16

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 13:56

Great stuff MDU. now get out there and practice for next year. :ar15:

LOL did I mention I'm just down the road from a skeet shooting club?

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 14:07

LOL did I mention I'm just down the road from a skeet shooting club?

You did mention it to me.

I think I would be in heavan if it were so for me and I could attend it as often as I felt like.

At $7-8 per 25 shells, shotguning is relatively cheap.

Enjoy the new "investment".

Learn lots and come and teach me.

Mr :shit:

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 14:19

Learn lots and come and teach me.

Mr :shit:

ok... lesson one - do NOT put the butt of the gun to your bicep and pull the trigger...

... ouch...

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 14:21

ok... lesson one - do NOT put the butt of the gun to your bicep and pull the trigger...

... ouch...

I learnt that one just after the one where you make sure the butt is actully touching your shoulder, not a couple of inches away. Oooooooow.

Wolf

16th April 2007, 15:19

I learnt that one just after the one where you make sure the butt is actully touching your shoulder, not a couple of inches away. Oooooooow.
Closely related is: never fire a full-length Mosin-Nagant rifle in 7.63x54R from the prone position.

And even with a little round like .30-30, ground the effing Model 94 on the shoulder properly, do not let it slam back into the collar bone...

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 15:24

Closely related is: never fire a full-length Mosin-Nagant rifle in 7.63x54R from the prone position.

And even with a little round like .30-30, ground the effing Model 94 on the shoulder properly, do not let it slam back into the collar bone...

I remeber an incident reported in the British gun mags in the 80's 0r 90's.

Aparently some dick head in one of the scandanavian countries decided he was a real hard b'stard.

He decided to fire a Lhati 30mm gun from the prone.

These guns have spades like a 105mm howitzer that are driven into the ground to aid with recoil.

This brave soul didnt use them.

He woke up 3 days later with his shouder, ribs and face all busted up.

Darwin was right.

Smokin

16th April 2007, 15:31

LOL did I mention I'm just down the road from a skeet shooting club?

Damn, how lucky can you get. Put the jug on mate, I'm on my way.

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 15:33

Damn, how lucky can you get. Put the jug on mate, I'm on my way.

You're always welcome chap.... bowl on up

Drunken Monkey

16th April 2007, 15:38

I've always wondered if it was considered poor etiquette to bring a pump action shotty to a skeet range instead of an over & under or semi-auto.

Comments/feedback?

Smokin

16th April 2007, 15:43

I've always wondered if it was considered poor etiquette to bring a pump action shotty to a skeet range instead of an over & under or semi-auto.

Comments/feedback?

No one ever complained at our gunclubs that I'm aware of.

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 15:44

I've always wondered if it was considered poor etiquette to bring a pump action shotty to a skeet range instead of an over & under or semi-auto.

Comments/feedback?

I dont know the rules myself but from watching a lot of these events I notice that it is predominantly the under over shotguns used.

I personally havent seen may semi auto or pump actions used.

I suppose that as long as they ony have two rounds loaded there should be no problem, in fact with that loading they are both at a disadvantage to the UO shotgun.

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 15:46

I've always wondered if it was considered poor etiquette to bring a pump action shotty to a skeet range instead of an over & under or semi-auto.

Comments/feedback?

Dunno and to be honest I don't care. I don't expect to shoot competitively with it, simply want to learn how to handle it properly. They'll know that ahead of time. If they turn into a pack of snobs I might head on over there with my magpie distress call tape...

No need to call "pull". The "skeets" volunteer themselves...

Quardle oodle ardle wardle doo... *BOOM*

Drunken Monkey

16th April 2007, 15:55

Same, I'm just interested in getting some more use out of my gun. It currently only goes out and kills varmints about twice a year. Maybe we should all wander down and make a day of it?

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 16:08

Practice shoots are Wed afternoons and Saturdays.

You lads got a preference? I could enquire and see if we can get the run of the place for an hour or two...

Hey Snipe - that woman we met in the airport will be there this Wednesday afternoon - the one that gave me her number just before handing my clothes back... (true story)!

Smokin

16th April 2007, 16:14

Oh yeah Mr MDU, you kept that very hush hush.

Sniper

16th April 2007, 16:20

Hey Snipe - that woman we met in the airport will be there this Wednesday afternoon - the one that gave me her number just before handing my clothes back... (true story)!

LOL, I can vouch for that. She wouldn't give his clothes back until he took her phone number.

Mind you, no one took my clothes, or spill wine on me :p

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 16:33

LOL, I can vouch for that. She wouldn't give his clothes back until he took her phone number.

Mind you, no one took my clothes, or spill wine on me :p

Should this be discussed in an open forum? :gob:

Children may be watching, or even spouses.

Sniper

16th April 2007, 16:35

Should this be discussed in an open forum? :gob:

Children may be watching, or even spouses.

Was absolutly nothing dodgy. Sounds worse than what it actually was.

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 16:38

ok gun question time.

Who is able to purchase a rifle in the US and bring it home with them?

Y'know - like an A-Bolt .22... or similar? There's some lovely Hardware over there I'd like to try out... at US prices of course. They'd need:
1) Relevant US licence(s)
2) To be travelling home to NZ at some point... absolutely no hurry of course.

PM's welcome

Sniper

16th April 2007, 16:39

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 16:40

Was absolutly nothing dodgy. Sounds worse than what it actually was.

Having met MDU I have no problem in believing this statement. I'm sure there is a really innocent answer to all these last couple of threads being the gentleman he is and setting aside the obvious flatulence problem displayed in Alexandria at the bunnie shoot.

Now some of you others I havent met yet. This could be a different story.

Mr :shit:

Sniper

16th April 2007, 16:42

MDU and anyone else looking at importing a firearm, have a look at this

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/importing.html

Sniper

16th April 2007, 16:43

Now some of you others I havent met yet. This could be a different story.

Mr :shit:

Trust us..... :shifty:

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 16:44

Ditto here please...

I'll ask around witrh some of my mates, cowboys are always importing stuff from the US.

Give me a couple of days

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 16:45

Trust us..... :shifty:

Are you a real estate agent?

ManDownUnder

16th April 2007, 16:45

Having met MDU I have no problem in believing this statement. I'm sure there is a really innocent answer to all these last couple of threads being the gentleman he is and setting aside the obvious flatulence problem displayed in Alexandria at the bunnie shoot.

Now some of you others I havent met yet. This could be a different story.

Mr :shit:

LOL.... yeah was funny. Snipe and I were sitting in the Air NZ lounge prior to flights out of Queenstown to our respective destinations and I opened my mouth... something about being an honorary JAFA.

Long story short - Snipe and I are not looking too flash, 24 hours minimal sleep probably smelling a bit and this older lady comes over chats us up a bit - she's pissed... at leats a little (Snipe?). Anyway her mates (all female) come over and start talking. One's a golf instructor, my boss might be interested so she gives me her number (she wasn't carrying a card).

My plane gets a boarding call so I go to leave - she's sitting on the seat where I draped my jacket. So I said to her in leaving "This is all right - first you give me your number - then you hand my clothes back".

She was a good sort - and that's the end of it. But it's easy to blur the lines just a little when telling the story.

Now - back to guns... that US contact...

Mr Merde

16th April 2007, 16:47

MDU and anyone else looking at importing a firearm, have a look at this

http://www.police.govt.nz/service/firearms/importing.html

Better look into the regs in the US about exporting. Was listening in on a couple of dealers yesterday and apparently there has been some tightening up recently and even Brownnells are playing hard with shipping stuff.

Sniper

16th April 2007, 16:48

Are you a real estate agent?

Hell no! I dabble in Rental cars

LOL.... yeah was funny. Snipe and I were sitting in the Air NZ lounge prior to flights out of Queenstown to our respective destinations and I opened my mouth... something about being an honorary JAFA.

Long story short - Snipe and I are not looking too flash, 24 hours minimal sleep probably smelling a bit and this older lady comes over chats us up a bit - she's pissed... at leats a little (Snipe?). Anyway her mates (all female) come over and start talking. One's a golf instructor, my boss might be interested so she gives me her number (she wasn't carrying a card).

My plane gets a boarding call so I go to leave - she's sitting on the seat where I draped my jacket. So I said to her in leaving "This is all right - first you give me your number - then you hand my clothes back".

Yea, I would say she was just a bit tipsy. She did manage to spill half a glass of wine on the couch.

Besides, it was all you, they didn't really talk to me much. :p

Smokin

16th April 2007, 17:41

LOL.... yeah was funny. Snipe and I were sitting in the Air NZ lounge prior to flights out of Queenstown to our respective destinations and I opened my mouth... something about being an honorary JAFA.

Long story short - Snipe and I are not looking too flash, 24 hours minimal sleep probably smelling a bit and this older lady comes over chats us up a bit - she's pissed... at leats a little (Snipe?). Anyway her mates (all female) come over and start talking. One's a golf instructor, my boss might be interested so she gives me her number (she wasn't carrying a card).

My plane gets a boarding call so I go to leave - she's sitting on the seat where I draped my jacket. So I said to her in leaving "This is all right - first you give me your number - then you hand my clothes back".

She was a good sort - and that's the end of it. But it's easy to blur the lines just a little when telling the story.

Now - back to guns... that US contact...

That's a poor effort, give me 1/2 an hour and I'll make you up a decent story.

Wolf

16th April 2007, 17:56

That's a poor effort, give me 1/2 an hour and I'll make you up a decent story.
Start a new thread with it with a "catchy" title, would be a shame for the likes of Ixion to miss it...

Sniper

16th April 2007, 18:33

That's a poor effort, give me 1/2 an hour and I'll make you up a decent story.

Go on, I dare ya :p

The Pastor

17th April 2007, 16:05

Im thinking of getting a firearms licence next year, what sort of rifle would be good for me? Im in auckland so its not as if im going to be hunting deer or what not, I think just the occasional possoum and a bit of target down at a rifle range (any ideas of some nice auckland rages, I went to a pistol club once and they were all fat old guys with nerdy pistols with scopes and laszers.....)

I was thinking a little 22? I recently got my mate a rugar 10/22 for his 21, it was a very nice rifle.

Are you allowed to crusie around some of the back roads and shoot on random peoples properties?

Sniper

17th April 2007, 16:11

Sniper

17th April 2007, 16:15

On a side note and as an extra.

If there is ANYONE in Christchurch or surrounding regions that are new to firearms or want a bit of an education into the safe handeling, cleaning or sighting of rifles, please don't hesitate to contact me. I know of a couple of places now where we could go to fine tune shooting skills if needed.
I can give you a few tips on shooting too. By no means am I an expert, but Im willing to share what knowledge I have in an effort to get you to shoot safely and more accuratly.

I would prefer showing someone the ropes than hear them shooting themselves in the foot per say.

Im sure there are guys around the country with the same ideas as I.

jrandom

17th April 2007, 16:16

Im thinking of getting a firearms licence next year, what sort of rifle would be good for me? Im in auckland so its not as if im going to be hunting deer or what not, I think just the occasional possoum and a bit of target down at a rifle range

Most people buy a .22LR first, although to be honest, I'd say you'd be more likely to get good use out of a nice centerfire, say a .243. Do some real hunting. No reason not to; plenty within easy driving distance of Auckland. Join the NZ Deerstalker's Association (NZDA) - they often arrange hunting trips around the NI that members can tag along on.

Hell, when it comes to rifles, splash out and buy both - you can pick up a Norinco JW15 bolt-action .22 brand new with a scope and suppressor for about $300, and a package deal on, say, a Savage .243 will set you back in the order of $1,000.

And don't forget that duck season will shortly be upon us. You might consider purchasing a shotgun.

(any ideas of some nice auckland rages, I went to a pistol club once and they were all fat old guys with nerdy pistols with scopes and laszers.....)

The NZDA Auckland and North Auckland branches have rifle ranges at Riverhead that you can use if you're a member. Regular target shoots on Sundays.

Oh yeah, and if I were you, I'd watch what I said about the fat old guys with nerdy pistols...

Are you allowed to crusie around some of the back roads and shoot on random peoples properties?

Not unless you fucking ask first. Don't be rude and stupid.

In my experience, farmers north and south of Auckland with goats or rabbits running around on their farm tend to be more than happy to come to appropriate arrangements with polite, respectable gentlemen who knock on the front door and ask nicely.

Swoop

17th April 2007, 16:21

Are you allowed to crusie around some of the back roads and shoot on random peoples properties?
:shit:
I cannot believe that you posted this.

jrandom

17th April 2007, 16:25

I cannot believe that you posted this.

You haven't figured out that RM is a bit of a knobhead yet?

The rest of us have. He means well. We're just trying to do a service to society by gently nudging him in the right direction.

The Pastor

17th April 2007, 16:29

that last bit was a bit of a troll, just relax.

Swoop

17th April 2007, 16:32

You haven't figured out that RM is a bit of a knobhead yet?
Long, long ago.

Drunken Monkey

17th April 2007, 17:13

... I own a Stirling Model 20a .22 and I wouldn't trade it for the world...

Really? I ended up with a Stirling 20P that I didn't even want in an 'arms trade' (*ahem*). I'd trade it in a second...what a piece of poo.

The Remington 597 I bought of a fellow BK'er is a much better weapon, in every respect.

PS - On the .243 front, Fish is right. It's a good round to shoot, not much kick, quite versatile and very flat, although it is quite loud. I use mine for goat killing, but you could just as easily shoot smaller animals and it can be used for the smaller end of the Deer scale. Granted if someone offers me a good price for it, i'd get myself a Remington 700 in .308, but that would be more for cool factor than any practical purpose.

jrandom

17th April 2007, 17:21

a Remington 700 in .308...

To be honest, if I had to choose, I'd rather have a .243 than a .308. Heck, a .243 is just a necked-down .308 in any case. A lighter, faster, flatter-shooting projectile that'll kill any animal you're likely to encounter within 200m so long as you don't hit it in a damn-fool location. What's not to love?

Hell, I've seen animals get up and run faster than I can after taking a bad hit from an expanding 200gr bullet at about 2800fps out of the Mosin Nagant. Nasty shit.

:o

Hunting is all about bullet placement, not projectile energy.

Sniper

17th April 2007, 17:24

Really? I ended up with a Stirling 20P that I didn't even want in an 'arms trade' (*ahem*). I'd trade it in a second...what a piece of poo..

Ahhh, you went wrong with the 20P. Those were the newer models werent they? I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole aye.

Those Rems are damn nice rifles too.

Drunken Monkey

17th April 2007, 17:29

Hunting is all about bullet placement, not projectile energy.

I agree on all your points, hence the qualifier "...more for cool factor than any practical purpose". Unfortunately, at least according to the online catalogue, the Remington 700 is "Available in 7mm-08, .204 and 308.".

Those were the newer models werent they? I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole aye.

Actually I have no idea. It is made in the Philippines, if that has anything to do with it. But yeah, I didn't even want it; it was a condition of the buyout when I went from half owner to full owner of the Remington 870. Urgh, there's that word again - maybe I'm turning into some sort of wierd brand-conscious Remington whore...

scumdog

17th April 2007, 17:32

To be honest, if I had to choose, I'd rather have a .243 than a .308. Heck, a .243 is just a necked-down .308 in any case. A lighter, faster, flatter-shooting projectile that'll kill any animal you're likely to encounter within 200m so long as you don't hit it in a damn-fool location. What's not to love?

Hell, I've seen animals get up and run faster than I can after taking a bad hit from an expanding 200gr bullet at about 2800fps out of the Mosin Nagant. Nasty shit.

:o

Hunting is all about bullet placement, not projectile energy.

Last comment is true - but disagree re the 243 vs 308 bit.

A 308 with a 180 grain hunting projectile is tops for any bush hunting peiod.
My mate with a 243 ended up trying 105grn loads to get the bush-bashing qualities of my 308, didn't work.

Use the same 308 since 1974 and the only time it felt like it 'lacked' was open-top shooting a thar a long-way away. (350 yards plus)

The rest of the time it was ideal.

Sniper

17th April 2007, 17:34

Hunting is all about bullet placement, not projectile energy.

Well said Fish. Its just like target shooting, except on food. As MDU, he shoots the feet off bunnies :p

Actually I have no idea. It is made in the Philippines, if that has anything to do with it. But yeah, I didn't even want it; it was a condition of the buyout when I went from half owner to full owner of the Remington 870. Urgh, there's that word again - maybe I'm turning into some sort of wierd brand-conscious Remington whore...

Nothing wrong with Remington IMHO. I would like to have a couple more in the safe alongside my 700.

jrandom

17th April 2007, 17:47

a 180 grain hunting projectile is tops for any bush hunting peiod.

True that. I've done almost all my hunting to date out in the open. Bring the binocs and you can spot your game from 10km away up a ridge, nice and quick, but then you gotta go for the long, long walk, and you'd better be able to put lead on target at well over 100m or your dinner is just gonna be laughing at you as it scoots away.

A 30-30 lever action would be the bee's knees for bush shooting, I reckon.

Wolf

17th April 2007, 21:32

To be honest, if I had to choose, I'd rather have a .243 than a .308. Heck, a .243 is just a necked-down .308 in any case. A lighter, faster, flatter-shooting projectile that'll kill any animal you're likely to encounter within 200m so long as you don't hit it in a damn-fool location. What's not to love?

Hell, I've seen animals get up and run faster than I can after taking a bad hit from an expanding 200gr bullet at about 2800fps out of the Mosin Nagant. Nasty shit.

:o

Hunting is all about bullet placement, not projectile energy.
Got to agree. I love the .243 calibre and I seriously regret selling my .243 Miroku Lever Action, despite getting more for it than I paid for it (amazing what removing the dented varnish, steaming out the dents in the furniture and the liberal application of linseed oil and gun-blue to the appropriate areas can achieve).

It was a fantastically accurate weapon and I loved it.

I hope to get a decent Mauser-actioned .243 at some stage to replace it.

US Motorcycle-and-gun nut, Chuck Hawks, has an essay on his site proposing that the armed forces of the World ditch .223 and .308 in favour of .243 and I quite agree with the arguments he raises.

As Fish says, though, it's bullet placement that counts. A .243 through the chest will stop an animal a damned site faster than pretty much anything through the stomach.