The American (USA) 2016 presidential elections thread?

[pritch]

It's becoming apparent that Trump's business - based style doesn't recognise allies. It's Trump/US first and to hell with anyone else.

You are giving him too much credit. The consensus among those qualified to judge is that he has narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). In his mind it's only about him winning, or at least being able to claim he is winning.

His behaviour is accentuated by his ignorance, he doesn't read and has a very limited vocabulary.

If you consider most of the events of the last three years or so in that light everything becomes so much more understandable.

There is an added complication now in that there has recently been a report that he is addicted to amphetamines (speed).

[Katman]

There is an added complication now in that there has recently been a report that he is addicted to amphetamines (speed).

:killingme

Are you husaberk's twin?

[husaberg]

Turns out he also has trouble "sleeping" so he also takes Ambien which might explain his erratic behavior

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmk6oC2CuT0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYnXBRo9TVA




If Ambien is to blame, Musk would not be the only celebrity to act strangely under the influence of the sedative, or to claim that acting strangely was the fault of the sedative.
In May Roseanne Barr memorably blamed Ambien for a series of racist tweets which led to her ABC sitcom being cancelled.
“It was 2 in the morning and I was ambien tweeting,” was Barr’s defense for a message comparing former Barack Obama aide Valerie Jarrett to an ape. She also accused George Soros of being “a nazi”.
The drug manufacturer Sanofi, which makes Ambien, issued a statement after Barr’s outburst saying “racism is not a known side effect of any Sanofi medication”.
Ambien maker responds to Roseanne Barr: 'Racism is not a known side effect'
Ambien, commonly prescribed for insomnia, was found in Tiger Woods’ system when he was arrested for a DUI in 2017. Police found Woods’ car parked on the side of the road with the engine running, the brake lights on and a right turn signal blinking. Woods said prescription medication was to blame.
Charlie Sheen said Ambien was responsible for him allegedly trashing his New York City hotel room in 2010. The New York Post reported that “tables and chairs had been thrown around the room and a chandelier was also damaged”. In 2011 Sheen explained his behavior to the news show 20/20:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6iLTFzHB5A

[jasonu]

There is an added complication now in that there has recently been a report that he is addicted to amphetamines (speed).


:killingme

Are you husaberk's twin?

Did the herald report that?

[pritch]

Did the herald report that?

You and Katman could be brothers. Actually you read the Herald a whole lot more than I do judging by your posts on here.

I likely do read a lot more than most, I have more time, but always news sources from at least three or four countries every day. Of which the least time would be spent on NZ news.

Lately there is a lot of legal news from the States because without that it's hard to figure out what's actually happening with the Mueller investigation. There are sources which explain the technicalities of the law so that we peasantry can understand.

[Viking01]

You and Katman could be brothers. Actually you read the Herald a whole lot more than I do judging by your posts on here.

I likely do read a lot more than most, I have more time, but always news sources from at least three or four countries every day. Of which the least time would be spent on NZ news.

Lately there is a lot of legal news from the States because without that it's hard to figure out what's actually happening with the Mueller investigation. There are sources which explain the technicalities of the law so that we peasantry can understand.

Good to see that there's someone with their finger on the pulse, and keeping track
of what's going on. I thought that they'd already found him guilty - it was just a
problem of what to charge him with ... :msn-wink:

[pritch]

Good to see that there's someone with their finger on the pulse, and keeping track
of what's going on. I thought that they'd already found him guilty - it was just a
problem of what to charge him with ... :msn-wink:

He may not get that far. With Maddis's resignation the cold winds of reality are blowing through DC, the last adult has left the Whitehouse. Who knows but the politicians may find their spines and convince the cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment?

It's reported now that Erdogan, the president of Turkey, told Trump during a phone call that he wanted the USA out of Syria. Despite objections from Bolton, who was also in the call, Trump agreed.

He likes his dictators does Trump.

[husaberg]

You and Katman could be brothers.
Pritch i respect and normally agree with your posts, but apart from Jason's support of the orangatang and some right wing views hes a top bloke, Katman on the other hand should be topped with a PZ mower.

[jasonu]

Jason's a top bloke.

Only from some angles...
Merry Christmas kiwi bitchers!!!!!

[TheDemonLord]

I think his point is no matter what America does people will find a way to say it is wrong.
Damed if you damed if you don’t sort of thing.

Indeed - I thought it was obvious.

There was also a slight inference that those people, are often one and the same.

[Grumph]

He may not get that far. With Maddis's resignation the cold winds of reality are blowing through DC, the last adult has left the Whitehouse. Who knows but the politicians may find their spines and convince the cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment?

He likes his dictators does Trump.

Well, he wants to be one of them...When the Chinese Premier was confirmed recently as basically leader for life, Trump congratulated him and said something like "We'll have to introduce that here"...

This Xmas break in Washington will be interesting to say the least. If Trump stays there, a lot of senior Republicans are going to have to stay as well - to watch and try and restrain him. If he goes to Florida, I'd bet someone's paying the butler to keep him pissed and happy...

[oldrider]

The "Real" Reason Trump Is "Pulling Out" US Armed Forces From Syria:? Orchestrated theatre?

Deal With Putin & Netanyahu? :- (Brendon O'Connell Published on 21 Dec 2018) https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=MuDpW2S9sYY :corn: .................. :wait:

[Katman]

There was also a slight inference that those people, are often one and the same.

Really?

Can you name anyone here who has taken two such opposing viewpoints?

[husaberg]

Really?

Can you name anyone here who has taken two such opposing viewpoints?

really.........

Saddam Hussein was never going to rival Gandhi or Mother Teresa in the annuls of human kindness but the average Iraqi was certainly not poor and starving before the sanctions were imposed.
Cold, calculated genocide.

How then do we deal with a torturing, Genocidal dictator?
Bombs and Bullets - that went down so well in both the popular press and in practice
Sanctions - causes pain and suffering to the population (although the real question is does it cause more or less than having your village carpet bombed by a B52?) but gives the government in power a clear way to stop the suffering.
My challenge to all of you who complain about how evil the west is/was is this:
How would you remove a Genocidal dictator that is both more humane and less costly (in terms of human suffering, not monetary hardship)?
I put forward that the west is between a frying pan, a fire and an incinerator:
Do nothing - we are the bad guys as we stand by while kurds are gassed and tortured
Impose sanctions - we are the bad guys because we enforce policy that causes suffering
Engage in a military campaign - we are the bad guys because War and killing is bad and innocents suffer.


Countless millions of innocent people have died throughout history's wars.
America only went after Saddam Hussein because they had an alterior motive to do so.


Dude, if you're suggesting that America didn't get involved in Rwanda because they didn't want to face the backlash for any collateral damage they might cause, you're more retarded than I ever imagined.
They didn't lift a finger because there was nothing in it for them.
World police? My fucking arse.
yet

Crimea had been trying to gain full independence from Ukraine since 1992 and their efforts were continually blocked by the Ukraine government.
Russia protected the Crimean peoples right to determine that outcome.

[TheDemonLord]

Really?

Can you name anyone here who has taken two such opposing viewpoints?

Any number of popular news outlets - they are critical of the decision to go in, they are critical of the decision to pull out.

[Katman]

Any number of popular news outlets - they are critical of the decision to go in, they are critical of the decision to pull out.

Right, so that would come under the heading of mass media controlling what you believe.

Anyone on here though? (Since you seem to think it happens 'often').

[TheDemonLord]

Right, so that would come under the heading of mass media controlling what you believe.

Anyone on here though? (Since you seem to think it happens 'often').

Yourself (as pointed out by Husa)
Oldie (both decisions being critiqued as being at the behest of Israel)
Pritch
etc.

Pretty much anyone who wants to be critical of the US/the west in general.

[Katman]

Yourself (as pointed out by Husa)

I'm aware that making sense of words on a page is difficult for the Berk but I expected better from you.

My comment on Rwanda is merely making the observation that America doesn't lift a finger if there's nothing in it for them and therefore makes a mockery of their assumed title of World Police.

Go back and read the post again.

Carefully this time.

[oldrider]

Trump Takes Decisive Stand Against The Military And Congress:- (By Moon Of Alabama) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/50811.htm - :corn:

[husaberg]

I'm aware that making sense of words on a page is difficult for the Berk but I expected better from you.

My comment on Rwanda is merely making the observation that America doesn't lift a finger if there's nothing in it for them and therefore makes a mockery of their assumed title of World Police.

Go back and read the post again.

Carefully this time.
Reconising your own general hypocricy is obviously a bit difficult for you.
So i will give you a hint as you clearly cant buy a clue.

Lets see you praise Russia for invading the Ukraine which was a democracy.
Yet you berate the USA for for overthrowing a dictator in Iraq
But You then berate the US for not intervening in a Rwandan civil war
You then praise Russia for helping a dictator stop a popular movement in Syria saying they were fighting terrorists.
Yet you criticize the US for invading Afghanistan which was harboring Terrorists
But you then berate the US for not intervening on behalf of the Kurds
You claim there are better ways to deal with oppression than invading a country
Yet you criticize trade sanctions imposed by the UN
You claim its okay that innocent citizens die in wars die as that's "collateral damage" when its someone you generally support.
Yet are abhorred when its someone you don't support inadvertently kills a single civilian child, because terrorists set up and arms dump or fire missiles from a school ground house or similar.

Whats even funnier is you call into question others intelligence when you yourself display the cognitive capacity of a small brown mouse named Brian

[TheDemonLord]

I'm aware that making sense of words on a page is difficult for the Berk but I expected better from you.

My comment on Rwanda is merely making the observation that America doesn't lift a finger if there's nothing in it for them and therefore makes a mockery of their assumed title of World Police.

Go back and read the post again.

Carefully this time.

That observation comes with a number of presuppositions.

Namely that it was right for the US to have a Military intervention and that by not doing so, they were in the wrong.

In which case, you prove my critique.

You can't make an observation that it was wrong for the US to not send troops in, if you think the US shouldn't have sent in troops.

[Katman]

That observation comes with a number of presuppositions.

Namely that it was right for the US to have a Military intervention and that by not doing so, they were in the wrong.

In which case, you prove my critique.

You can't make an observation that it was wrong for the US to not send troops in, if you think the US shouldn't have sent in troops.

Who said anything about troops?

[oldrider]

Who said anything about troops?

Despite what Donald has "said" the troops are still there - until they have actually left Syria etc everything remains the same!

Men shall be known for what they do rather than what they say! :shutup: - Time will reveal all. :wait:

[mashman]

:killingme

Are you husaberk's twin?

Donald acts for Donald alone and no one can do anything about it? :killingme.

[TheDemonLord]

Who said anything about troops?

Oh I see.

Genocidal mobs have always reacted so positively to polite requests to stop...

[Katman]

Oh I see.

Genocidal mobs have always reacted so positively to polite requests to stop...

There were steps that could have been taken to try to avoid the situation turning into genocide in the first place.

And Jewish bankers have a fair amount of responsibility for the economic collapse of Rwanda in the few years leading up to the genocide.

Funny that.

[Katman]

And besides, the presence of 'troops' doesn't have to entail going to war.

There's such a thing as Peace Keeping missions.

[husaberg]

Oh I see.

Genocidal mobs have always reacted so positively to polite requests to stop...
Odd because The US did as did the UN Security Council The Borders Crossing were manned to prevent more weapons entering and The UN had armed force on the Ground
Yet all of this was done and none of this worked it kind of makes you wonder what other US intervention Katmam "claims now"he was meaning.


And besides, the presence of 'troops' doesn't have to entail going to war.

There's such a thing as Peace Keeping missions.Epic lack of knowledge displayed there. No real surprise though at least you are consistent.
I guess the thousands of UN armed peace keeping troops deployed in Rwanda before after and during the genocide must have escaped your notice:facepalm:

The United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda (UNAMIR) was established by United Nations Security Council Resolution 872 on 5 October 1993. It was intended to assist in the implementation of the Arusha Accords, signed on 4 August 1993, which was meant to end the Rwandan Civil War. The mission lasted from October 1993 to March 1996.Its activities were meant to aid the peace process between the Hutu-dominated Rwandese government and the Tutsi-dominated rebel Rwandan Patriotic Front (RPF). The UNAMIR has received much attention for its role in failing, due to the limitations of its rules of engagement, to prevent the Rwandan genocide and outbreak of fighting.

http://www.un.org/Depts/DPKO/Missions/unamir_b.htm


In October 1993, the Security Council, by its resolution 872 (1993), established another international force, the United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda (UNAMIR), to help the parties implement the agreement, monitor its implementation and support the transitional Government. UNAMIR's demilitarized zone sector headquarters was established upon the arrival of the advance party and became operational on 1 November 1993, when the NMOG II elements were absorbed into UNAMIR. Deployment of the UNAMIR battalion in Kigali, composed of contingents from Belgium and Bangladesh, was completed in the first part of December 1993, and the Kigali weapons-secure area was established on 24 December.
The United Nations solicited troop contributions, but initially only Belgium with a half a battalion of 400 troops, and Bangladesh with a logistical element of 400 troops, offered personnel. It took five months to reach the authorized strength of 2,548. But because of many unresolved issues between the parties, implementation of the agreement was delayed. Consequently, the inauguration of the transitional Government never took place.

In April 1994, the Presidents of Rwanda and of Burundi were killed while returning from peace talks in Tanzania, when the Rwandese plane crashed, in circumstances that are still to be determined, as it was landing in Kigali, Rwanda's capital. This set off a tidal wave of political and ethnic killings: the Prime Minister, cabinet ministers and UNAMIR peacekeepers were among the first victims.

The killings, targeting Tutsi and moderate Hutus, were mainly carried out by the armed forces, the presidential guard and the ruling party's youth militia, as subsequently confirmed by the Special Rapporteur on Rwanda of the United Nations Human Rights Commission. The RPF resumed its advance from the north and the east of Rwanda, and government authority disintegrated.

An interim Government was formed, but failed to stop the massacres. With the RPF's southward push, the number of displaced persons and refugees increased tremendously. On 28 April alone, 280,000 people fled to Tanzania to escape the violence. Another wave of refugees went to Zaire. The United Nations and other agencies provided emergency assistance on an unprecedented scale.

UNAMIR sought to arrange a ceasefire, without success, and its personnel came increasingly under attack. After some countries unilaterally withdrew their contingents, the Security Council, by its resolution 912 (1994) of 21 April 1994, reduced UNAMIR's strength from 2,548 to 270. Despite its reduced presence, UNAMIR troops managed to protect thousands of Rwandese who took shelter at sites under UNAMIR control.

The Security Council, by adopting resolution 918 (1994) of 17 May 1994, imposed an arms embargo against Rwanda, called for urgent international action and increased UNAMIR's strength to up to 5,500 troops. But it took nearly six months for Member States to provide the troops.

To contribute to the security of civilians, the Council, by resolution 929 (1994) of 22 June 1994, authorized, under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter, a multi-national humanitarian operation. French-led multinational forces carried out "Operation Turquoise", which established a humanitarian protection zone in south-western Rwanda. The operation ended in August 1994 and UNAMIR took over in the zone.

In July, RPF forces took control of Rwanda, ending the civil war, and established a broad-based Government. The new Government declared its commitment to the 1993 peace agreement and assured UNAMIR that it would cooperate on the return of refugees.

For their part, when the conflict broken out in April, UNOMUR observers had expanded their monitoring activities in Uganda to the entire border area. But the Security Council gradually scaled down the operation, and UNOMUR left Uganda in September.

By October 1994, estimates suggested that out of a population of 7.9 million, at least half a million people had been killed. Some 2 million had fled to other countries and as many as 2 million people were internally displaced. A United Nations humanitarian appeal launched in July raised $762 million, making it possible to respond to the enormous humanitarian challenge.

[TheDemonLord]

There were steps that could have been taken to try to avoid the situation turning into genocide in the first place.

And what steps, do you think should have been tried, that would have been effective?


And Jewish bankers have a fair amount of responsibility for the economic collapse of Rwanda in the few years leading up to the genocide.

Funny that.

Now, that sounds an awful lot like an admission that I was right:

When they send troops in, it's bad because it's what the Jews/Israel wants.
When they pull troops out, it's bad because it's what the Jews/Israel wants.



And besides, the presence of 'troops' doesn't have to entail going to war.

There's such a thing as Peace Keeping missions.

Yes, worked out so well in Rwanda, Didn't it....

If my memory is correct the peace keeping mission had their Achilles tendons cut, their Genitals hacked off and were eventually choked to death with their freshly severed genitals by a mob of Machete wielding Hutus.

[Katman]

But then again, peace keeping missions don't expend anywhere near enough ammunition.

Clearly there's no money to be made in them

[Katman]

Yes, worked out so well in Rwanda, Didn't it....

If my memory is correct the peace keeping mission had their Achilles tendons cut, their Genitals hacked off and were eventually choked to death with their freshly severed genitals by a mob of Machete wielding Hutus.

Do you really think 500 men were sufficient to maintain peace?

[FJRider]

And besides, the presence of 'troops' doesn't have to entail going to war.

There's such a thing as Peace Keeping missions.

The American Department of Defense foots the bill for more than a quarter of the United Nations’ $7 billion annual “peacekeeping” budget. But the UN’s poorly conceived missions usually fail to live up to the name ... I wonder how long the UN peacekeeping will continue if the US pulls out of those too.

If it doesn't immediately affect the US economy or it's "Interest's" ... they wont bother ...

[Katman]

If it doesn't immediately affect the US economy or it's "Interest's" ... they wont bother ...

And yet they want to pretend that they act as the World Police.

[Grumph]

The American Department of Defense foots the bill for more than a quarter of the United Nations’ $7 billion annual “peacekeeping” budget. But the UN’s poorly conceived missions usually fail to live up to the name ... I wonder how long the UN peacekeeping will continue if the US pulls out of those too.

If it doesn't immediately affect the US economy or it's "Interest's" ... they wont bother ...

How long before any funded "peacekeeping missions" are only to protect Trump property ?

[FJRider]

And yet they want to pretend that they act as the World Police.

Trump does have acting experience ... :shifty:

[Katman]

This from a report on the genocide commissioned by the Organisation of African Unity.......


12.35. In the spring of 1993, soon after Bill Clinton was inaugurated,
“each foreign policy region within the Pentagon [was] asked todevelop
lists of what we thought would be serious crises this Administration
might face.” According to James Woods,who had been Deputy Assistant
Secretary for African Affairs since 1986, “I put Rwanda-Burundi on the
list. I won't go into personalities, but I received guidance from higher
authorities. ‘Look, if something happens in Rwanda-Burundi, we don't
care. Take it off the list. US national interest is not involved and we
can't put all these silly humanitarian issues on lists, like important
problems like the Middle East, North Korea, and so on. Just make it go
away.’ And it was pretty clear to me, given the fiasco of the end of our
involvement with Somalia [a few months later], that we probably wouldn't
react [to Rwanda].”[57] American policy under Clinton remained
essentially as it had been before Clinton: a modest interest in
encouraging conventional reforms – the Arusha process, democratization
and “liberal” economic reforms – but little interest in human rights,
ethnic cleavages, or massacres.[58]

[jasonu]

Do you really think 500 men were sufficient to maintain peace?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes
These cunts sorted out shit until the United Nations said they weren't allowed to.

[husaberg]

Do you really think 500 men were sufficient to maintain peace?
Odd considering just having non armed troops was your first go to fail as being enough to stop it yet noe the number of armed ones were not enough:lol:
There was 2500 armed UN peace keepers that based on the drivel you spouted that you clearly never even heard of epic
The katspam fails just keep on going

[pritch]

Trumps acceding to Erdogan's demand is concerning. Apparently the US presence in Syria has mainly involved special forces soldiers supporting the Kurds. Earlier in proceedings the Kurds were the only people reliably beating ISIS/DAESH. The Americans joined forces with, and supported the Kurds, with good results. They now control a large chunk of Syria. Although the US contribution is relatively small, this is apparently regarded as one of the more successful US military interventions.

In recent centuries the Kurds have been forced into a hilly area sometimes referred to as Kurdistan. Not unnaturally they would like this area to be a politically independent Kurdish state. Problematically their area of hills extends in to several different countries: Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and there is a small area in Armenia. Unsurprisingly the countries involved don't feel obliged to give the Kurds the land they need. Turkey and Iraq have both waged war on the Kurds. Hussein was gassing Kurdish villages and Turkey most recently started bombing the Kurds while they were still fighting DAESH. With 'allies' like that who needs enemies?

The Turks regard the Kurds as terrorists. Nobody else does, but the Turks do. The deal was that the Kurds would fight DAESH with US support and in turn the US would use their influence to protect the Kurds from the Turks. The fear is that when the US break their word and withdraw the Turks will launch a genocide against the Kurds. There are already video clips claiming to show large convoys of Turkish tanks heading to the border.

There is an added complication. The Kurds are holding thousands of former DAESH fighters prisoner. If the Turks attack the Kurds the latter might lose control of those prisoners, some of them foreign fighters, potentially putting them back into action anywhere in the world.

Of course it's quite possible that if you read this far you now know more about the situation than Trump does.

Note for Katman: I've read two books written by Syrians during the war, one located in Raqqa (DAESH territory), one located in Aleppo (rebel territory). Neither made mention of any collateral damage caused by Americans.

[Katman]

There was 2500 armed UN peace keepers that based on the drivel you spouted that you clearly never even heard of epic
The katspam fails just keep on going

The Rwandan genocide took place from the beginning of April 1994 till mid July.

On April 21 the UN Security Council decided to reduce the peace keeping force from 2500 to 270.

The officer commanding the mission managed to keep the number at about 500.

[husaberg]

The Rwandan genocide took place from the beginning of April 1994 till mid July.

On April 21 the UN Security Council decided to reduce the peace keeping force from 2500 to 270.

The officer commanding the mission managed to keep the number at about 500.
You are a slow learner not surprising considering you didn't even kow there were armed UN troops in Rwanda

In October 1993, the Security Council, by its resolution 872 (1993), established another international force, the United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda (UNAMIR), to help the parties implement the agreement, monitor its implementation and support the transitional Government. UNAMIR's demilitarized zone sector headquarters was established upon the arrival of the advance party and became operational on 1 November 1993, when the NMOG II elements were absorbed into UNAMIR. Deployment of the UNAMIR battalion in Kigali, composed of contingents from Belgium and Bangladesh, was completed in the first part of December 1993, and the Kigali weapons-secure area was established on 24 December.
The United Nations solicited troop contributions, but initially only Belgium with a half a battalion of 400 troops, and Bangladesh with a logistical element of 400 troops, offered personnel. It took five months to reach the authorized strength of 2,548. But because of many unresolved issues between the parties, implementation of the agreement was delayed. Consequently, the inauguration of the transitional Government never took place.

In April 1994, the Presidents of Rwanda and of Burundi were killed while returning from peace talks in Tanzania, when the Rwandese plane crashed, in circumstances that are still to be determined, as it was landing in Kigali, Rwanda's capital. This set off a tidal wave of political and ethnic killings: the Prime Minister, cabinet ministers and UNAMIR peacekeepers were among the first victims.

The killings, targeting Tutsi and moderate Hutus, were mainly carried out by the armed forces, the presidential guard and the ruling party's youth militia, as subsequently confirmed by the Special Rapporteur on Rwanda of the United Nations Human Rights Commission. The RPF resumed its advance from the north and the east of Rwanda, and government authority disintegrated.

An interim Government was formed, but failed to stop the massacres. With the RPF's southward push, the number of displaced persons and refugees increased tremendously. On 28 April alone, 280,000 people fled to Tanzania to escape the violence. Another wave of refugees went to Zaire. The United Nations and other agencies provided emergency assistance on an unprecedented scale.

UNAMIR sought to arrange a ceasefire, without success, and its personnel came increasingly under attack. After some countries unilaterally withdrew their contingents, the Security Council, by its resolution 912 (1994) of 21 April 1994, reduced UNAMIR's strength from 2,548 to 270. Despite its reduced presence, UNAMIR troops managed to protect thousands of Rwandese who took shelter at sites under UNAMIR control.
As you see when the Genocide started there were 2500 UN troops in Rwanda not 500 or Zero as you initially claimed
in fact on the 12 April thery were 3000 UN troups in Rwanda
The UN troops were forced to withraw after they started getting targeted.
The found it hard to defend themselves given the rules of engagement that had to follow.
But seeing as you claimed not even armed troups were needed to stop the genocide its pretty irrelevant really
Rwanda Genocide Timeline


July 8, 1993 RTLM (Radio Télévison des Milles Collines) begins broadcasting and spreading hate.
Just like Katspam and oldie do

August 3, 1993 The Arusha Accords are agreed upon, opening government positions to both Hutu and Tutsi.

April 6, 1994 Rwandan President Juvénal Habyarimana is killed when his plane is shot out of the sky. This is the official beginning of the Rwandan Genocide.

April 7, 1994 Hutu extremists begin killing their political opponents, including the prime minister.

April 9, 1994 Massacre at Gikondo - hundreds of Tutsis are killed in the Pallottine Missionary Catholic Church. Since the killers were clearly targeting only Tutsi, the Gikondo massacre was the first clear sign that a genocide was occurring.

April 15-16, 1994 Massacre at the Nyarubuye Roman Catholic Church - thousands of Tutsi are killed, first by grenades and guns and then by machetes and clubs.

April 18, 1994 The Kibuye Massacres. An estimated 12,000 Tutsis are killed after sheltering at the Gatwaro stadium in Gitesi. Another 50,000 are killed in the hills of Bisesero. More are killed in the town's hospital and church.

April 28-29 Approximately 250,000 people, mostly Tutsi, flee to neighboring Tanzania.



The US sends Troops in: WarMongers! Imperialists! Bloodthirsty! Military Industrial Complex!
The US withdraws Troops: Irrational! Unhinged! Fools! Delusional!

out of Katspams quote he posted guess what he forgot to remove this bit.

And it was pretty clear to me, given the fiasco of the end of our
involvement with Somalia [a few months later], that we probably wouldn't
react [to Rwanda].

[Katman]

out of Katspams quote he posted guess what he forgot to remove this bit.

Why would I have bothered to remove it?

[husaberg]

Why would I have bothered to remove it?
True looking like a hypocrite never worried you previously.
Nor would it cross you mind that it was exactly the point TDL made that you attempted to refute with a series of ill conceived rambling that are contradictory and show your total lack of knowledge.

[Katman]

.....or Zero as you initially claimed

Really?

Care to point out where?

[husaberg]

Really?

Care to point out where?
Its plainly obvious you never even knew there were armed UN troops in Rwanda.
Otherwise you would have shut your gob about how having peace keeping troops they would have prevent the genocide.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131119516#post1131119516
Nor would you have when you finally twigged that there was got it wrong about how many were there when the genocide started.
Nor would you have clain TDL point of being damned if they did or damned if they didn't was incorrect.
I realise you are not feigning ignorance, its your natural position.
I always find it funny you act with contempt claiming people must provide you with answers when you yourself refuse to answer questions and edit out what you reply to in the first place

Whats even more funny is your total acceptance that the genocide took place given to complete denial regarding the holocaust.:clap:

[Katman]

Its plainly obvious you never even knew there were armed UN troops in Rwanda.
Otherwise you would have shut your gob about how having peace keeping troopsd there would have prevent the genocide.
Nor would you have whenyou finally twigged that there was got it wrong about how many were there when the genocide started.
I realise you are not feigning ignorance, its your natural position.
I always find it funny you act with contempt claiming people must provide you with answers when you yourself refuse to answer questions and edit out what you reply to in the first place

Considerably more peace keepers than were committed would have made a considerable difference to the outcome.

Considerably more diplomatic pressure from the international community would have made a considerable difference too.

[Katman]

Whats even more funny is your total acceptance that the genocide took place given to complete denial regarding the holocaust.:clap:

My complete denial?

Care to point out where?

[husaberg]

Considerably more peace keepers than were committed would have made a considerable difference to the outcome.

Considerably more diplomatic pressure from the international community would have made a considerable difference too.
Yet you claimed armed troops would not have been needed at all.

That observation comes with a number of presuppositions.

Namely that it was right for the US to have a Military intervention and that by not doing so, they were in the wrong.

In which case, you prove my critique.

You can't make an observation that it was wrong for the US to not send troops in, if you think the US shouldn't have sent in troops.

Who said anything about troops?



Exactly how much more political pressure can the UN apply to a country in a Civil war then than what they did?

[Katman]

Yet you claimed armed troops would not have been needed at all.


Really?

Care to point out where?

You seem to spend a lot of time claiming I've said things that you can't provide any sort of proof of.

I see a pattern forming.

[husaberg]

My complete denial?

Care to point out where?
So you are prepared to admit that millions of Jews, Gypsies and Slavs as well as Dwarfs and the handicaped and were methodically systematically killed in concentration camps in gas chambers and worked and staved to death under the orders of top German hierarchy then. Beacause that was the Holocaust


Really?

Care to point out where?

You seem to spend a lot of time claiming I've said things that you can't provide any sort of proof of.

I see a pattern forming.
I already did. you feigning ignorance only shows you ignorant to what you write
I am sure you see a lot of patterns that don't exist that's what makes you a conspiracy theorist. The pattern is you are wrong pages ago yet you still troll on.......

[Katman]

I am sure you see a lot of patterns that dont exist thats what makes you a conspiracy theorist. The pattern is you are wrong pages ago yet you still troll on.......

Perhaps you should learn how to actually comprehend the words that you read - instead of just reading words and immediately putting your own retarded spin on them.

[TheDemonLord]

Do you really think 500 men were sufficient to maintain peace?

Are you admitting that a large scale Military Intervention was needed?

Because if you are...

[Katman]

Are you admitting that a large scale Military Intervention was needed?

Because if you are...

A peacekeeping mission is not a military intervention.

At least, not in the sense that you're hoping to make it.

[Katman]

And if you plan to insist that a peacekeeping mission is indeed a military intervention, name me one single genuine peacekeeping mission that I have ever critised the deployment of troops to.

[husaberg]

A peacekeeping mission is not a military intervention.

At least, not in the sense that you're hoping to make it.
Its became apparent You have no sense or it seems sense of shame, Bravo, go on give us three more pages of denial of the obvious:lol:

And if you plan to insist that a peacekeeping mission is indeed a military intervention, name me one single genuine peacekeeping mission that I have ever critised the deployment of troops to.
I love the way you claim to have never criticized a UN peace keeping mission deployment a page after he criticized a UN peace keeping mission to Rwanda. Epic

Considerably more peace keepers than were committed would have made a considerable difference to the outcome.

Before you attempt to claim you are criticizing the deployment, A deployment includes the number of people deployed. But hey,but until you were told the UN had 3000 troop there you never even knew they did.:clap:

[Katman]

I love the way you claim to have never criticized a UN peace keeping mission a page after he criticized a UN peace keeping mission to Rwanda. Epic

Like I said, try to actually comprehend the words you read.

[husaberg]

Like I said, try to actually comprehend the words you read.
As predicted
Not only that you initially claimed there was no peace keeping force at all.

[Katman]

As predicted
Not only that you initially claimed there was no peace keeping force at all.

Like I said, care to show us where?

[husaberg]

Like I said, care to show us where?
Us? which personalty missed out on the answer last time you asked the same question.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131119588#post1131119588
but then again even when you twigged admitted its existence you claimed it was 1/10th the size it actually was when the genocide started anyway.

[Katman]

So you are prepared to admit that millions of Jews, Gypsies and Slavs as well as Dwarfs and the handicaped and were methodically systematically killed in concentration camps in gas chambers and worked and staved to death under the orders of top German hierarchy then. Beacause that was the Holocaust

I absolutely agree that a great many Jews died during their incarceration in concentration camps.

It's the scale and manner of the deaths that I've come to question.

[husaberg]

I absolutely agree that a great many Jews died during their incarceration in concentration camps.

It's the scale and manner of the deaths that I've come to question.
That is exactly whats makes you a holocaust denier s proven in the UK high court in Irving vs Lipstadt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_v_Penguin_Books_Ltd
You remember that case where the guy you claim was an expert was made to look a fool.
In Court they proved
that Irving is an apologist for and partisan of Hitler, who has resorted to the distortion of evidence; the manipulation and skewing of documents; the misrepresentation of data and the application of double standards to the evidence, in order to serve his own purpose of exonerating Hitler and portraying him as sympathetic towards the Jews;
that Irving is one of the most dangerous spokespersons for Holocaust denial, who has on numerous occasions denied that the Nazis embarked upon the deliberate planned extermination of Jews and has alleged that it is a Jewish deception that gas chambers were used by the Nazis at Auschwitz as a means of carrying out such extermination;
that Irving, in denying that the Holocaust happened, has misstated evidence; misquoted sources; falsified statistics; misconstrued information and bent historical evidence so that it conforms to his neo-fascist political agenda and ideological beliefs;
that Irving has allied himself with representatives of a variety of extremist and anti-semitic groups and individuals and on one occasion agreed to participate in a conference at which representatives of terrorist organisations were due to speak;
that Irving, in breach of an agreement which he had made and without permission, removed and transported abroad certain microfiches of Goebbels's diaries, thereby exposing them to a real risk of damage.
that Irving is discredited as an historian
He also in court had to admit there was gas chambers at Auschwitz and that millions died as a result of executions. Not just disease or malnutrition as you have claimed.


On the issue of Auschwitz, the judge states "My conclusion is that the various categories of evidence do 'converge' in the manner suggested by the Defendants... Having considered the various arguments advanced by Irving to assail the effect of the convergent evidence relied upon by the Defendants, it is my conclusion that no objective, fair-minded historian would have serious cause to doubt that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and that they were operated on a substantial scale

[Katman]

THat is exactly whats makes you a holocaust denier s proven in the UK high court in Irving vs Lipstet.
You remember that case where the guy you claim was an expert was made to look a fool.
He also in court had to admit there was gas chambers at Auschwitz and that millions died as a result of executions.

Dude, you can foam at the mouth all you like.

I'm as entitled to question official versions of matters of history as you are to swallow them.

[husaberg]

Dude*, you can foam at the mouth all you like.

I'm as entitled to question official versions of matters of history as you are to swallow them.



*Retarded fuckstain.

You can question anything you like other than the fact you are clearly a holocaust denier.
You also cant question the fact your opinion is not supported either by the expert you choose as being an expert
or any of the evidence that a reasonable intelligent person would consider being available or sufficient.

So just to refresh your memory when i said you denied the holocaust occurred it was because you are a holocaust denier.
So any objections that it is not true are on your part again incorrect


The Rwandan genocide took place from the beginning of April 1994 till mid July.

On April 21 the UN Security Council decided to reduce the peace keeping force from 2500 to 270.





Whats even more funny is your total acceptance that the genocide took place given to complete denial regarding the holocaust.:clap:
W hitch brings us back to what evidence the Rwandan genocide occurred that is different than the evidence that shows the holocaust occurred then?
or do you just pick and choose despite the evidence based on the number of Jews involved?

[TheDemonLord]

A peacekeeping mission is not a military intervention.

At least, not in the sense that you're hoping to make it.

Ah Yes,

Peacekeeping Troops, with peacekeeping rifles, that fire peacekeeping bullets...




Here's a question then: You've opposed Military interventions in other areas - and now you are claiming that you don't oppose peacekeeping missions.

What philosophically is the difference?

From my Point of view - It's Soldiers, Armed with Guns (and some cases, bigger guns, backed up by larger military assets) in a Foreign land, using Force (or implied force). Putting aside the RoE (Rules of Engagement, because the Military could adopt the Peacekeepers RoE and vice versa) - I see very little difference between the two.

[Katman]

Here's a question then: You've opposed Military interventions in other areas - and now you are claiming that you don't oppose peacekeeping missions.

What philosophically is the difference?

Seriously?

Are you telling me you don't recognise the difference between a peacekeeping mission and the act of going to war?

[TheDemonLord]

Seriously?

Are you telling me you don't recognise the difference between a peacekeeping mission and the act of going to war?

Both are backed by a principle of Force.

A Principle that you've shied away from applying.

A Military intervention is based on the actual application of that Force.

A Peacekeeping mission is based on the threat of applying that Force.

The difference between the 2 is that with a sufficiently antagonistic opponent, one has to become the other. And that is the part I'm critiquing you on.

Now - in our multiple dalliances, you've never accepted any reason or rational for any Armed intervention. I've maintained that sometimes, even with all the collateral damage, loss of life and suffering, that an Armed Intervention is/was necessary.

You're somewhat changing your tune here - it seems to me, that you are happy with the Threat of Force, but unhappy with the conclusion of that Threat - the application.

If that's your position, that's fine - I obviously disagree with it, but I understand the moral principles that underline it.

[Katman]

You're somewhat changing your tune here - it seems to me, that you are happy with the Threat of Force, but unhappy with the conclusion of that Threat - the application.

If that's your position, that's fine - I obviously disagree with it, but I understand the moral principles that underline it.

I've not changed my tune at all. Perhaps you're simply starting to gain a slightly clearer understanding of my point of view - which I suppose should be seen as some form of progress.

And surely one of the principle differences between peacekeeping and the act of going to war is that the peacekeeping mission is applied in a non partisan manner while the other is an active participation on one particular side of a conflict.

[oldrider]

US-made weapons, Israeli medicines left behind by terrorists found in Southern region:- https://www.sana.sy/en/?p=154082 - Yeah right. :shifty:

[pritch]

And surely one of the principle differences between peacekeeping and the act of going to war is that the peacekeeping mission is applied in a non partisan manner while the other is an active participation on one particular side of a conflict.

Problems can arise when peacekeepers are sent to a situation where there is no real peace to keep as has happened more than once. The "peace" existing mainly in the minds of overly optimistic politicians.

[pritch]

This could give rise to a sense of unease.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/12/21/mattis-is-out-and-blackwater-is-back-we-are-coming/

[oldrider]

The US is at war with Iraq, Libya, Syria, Iran, Russia, All to protect the Petrodollar https://steemit.com/petrodollar/@freemarketcap/the-us-is-at-war-with-iraq-libya-syria-iran-russia-all-to-protect-the-petrodollar - interesting article in hindsight? :corn:

[husaberg]

Ah Yes,

Peacekeeping Troops, with peacekeeping rifles, that fire peacekeeping bullets...




Here's a question then: You've opposed Military interventions in other areas - and now you are claiming that you don't oppose peacekeeping missions.

What philosophically is the difference?

From my Point of view - It's Soldiers, Armed with Guns (and some cases, bigger guns, backed up by larger military assets) in a Foreign land, using Force (or implied force). Putting aside the RoE (Rules of Engagement, because the Military could adopt the Peacekeepers RoE and vice versa) - I see very little difference between the two.


The UN peace keeping missions didn't stop genocide in the Balkans either.
Ya wasting your Time with the Taupo troll he didnt even realise there were peace keeping troops in Rwanda in the firat place otherwise he wouldn't have said if they were deployed there.
Remember this all startyed with him butting in saying it wasnt a no win situation for the US to act to deploy or not deploy force in situations and has spent the last 4 pages proving it was a no win situation with his utter beligerence.



Also consider the rules of engagement that kaftan would consider being required as from past arguments Kaftan has said even if a person shoots a rifle and points it at you in a civilian situation surrounded by civilians and refuses to drop his weapon or surrender that still doesn't mean the police could shoot him or run into him with a car.
http://www.ktvq.com/story/28813119/officer-who-drove-into-suspect-justified-chief-says


Robbery with a weapon, arson, home invasion, grand theft auto, more robbery (a gun and ammo), failing to follow police instructions (didn't put the gun down), pointing the gun at police (which he was fucking lucky he wasn't shot for) all in the space of a couple of hours. Maybe the cops should have let him shoot someone before stopping him....

Fifteen charges
Valencia faces 15 charges, including three counts of aggravated assault, three counts of armed robbery and possession of a deadly weapon by a prohibited possessor (that means he is a convicted felon and convicted felons are not allowed to possess firearms). Cohen-Metzger said he had a prior record.

Fuck him, the cop should have reversed over the cunts head and finished the job.


Okay Katman - I have a question for you:

At what point(s) are the Police justified to use Deadly force (in your opinion)?

and

based on your answer to the above, what is it in this incident that in your opinion means that Deadly force wasn't justified?


It's justified when other means of resolution have been exhausted.






Also remember he is ot only opposed to military interventions (unless they are Russian)
Hes opposed to the UN intervening
Hes opposed to the US in any situation (unless they dont act) in which case their not acting is enough to be repugnant.
Hes opposed to trade restrictions.
Hes opposed to sanctions.
But then claims these could have prevented conflicts, but also claimed they cause them depending on his mood.
Hes opposed to interference in any Dictatorship no mater what they do to their innocent civilians, (Unless they are backed by Russian then its all good.)
Hes against weapons being made in the west that might get to Africa or the middle east but not those made in China or Russia and sold to Africa and the middle east. ie the overwelming vast majority of weapons.
Lastly no mater what the conflict like Alzheimerno motorbike oldrider he beliefs its caused by Jews even though he has no actual evidence.
Speaking of proof his burden of proof is 100 million times higher to prove he is mistaken than a court would accept.
Yet he willingly accepts information however tenuous or flimsy even if that that has been proven to be categorically false as being evidence that he is right.


Hes is the very epitome of a no win situation

[TheDemonLord]

I've not changed my tune at all. Perhaps you're simply starting to gain a slightly clearer understanding of my point of view - which I suppose should be seen as some form of progress.

I'm so glad you've agreed with that - Because there was a rather carefully laid fallacy in there.

In order for the Threat of Force to work, we have to be willing to use it. Your philosophical viewpoint works right up until someone calls your bluff.

If you want me to believe your initial statement (which FYI - I'm still skeptical of) that you don't oppose the sending in of Peacekeeping Troops - Simply articulate the situation where the use of Force (with the associated innocent civillians killed, wounded maimed etc.) is warranted.

I don't think you can/will.


And surely one of the principle differences between peacekeeping and the act of going to war is that the peacekeeping mission is applied in a non partisan manner while the other is an active participation on one particular side of a conflict.

Possibly, but consider this - keeping the Status Quo invariably helps one side more than the other. Furthermore, in order to complete their task, they must actively oppose one or more factions - and thus in a manner of speaking they become an active participant.

[Katman]

If you want me to believe your initial statement (which FYI - I'm still skeptical of) that you don't oppose the sending in of Peacekeeping Troops - Simply articulate the situation where the use of Force (with the associated innocent civillians killed, wounded maimed etc.) is warranted.

The rules regarding the use of force in a peacekeeping mission are quite specific.

https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/principles-of-peacekeeping

[TheDemonLord]

The rules regarding the use of force in a peacekeeping mission are quite specific.

https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/principles-of-peacekeeping

I didn't ask for what the rules say.

I asked for YOU to articulate when it's okay.

And then pointed out that I didn't think you'd be able to - and your attempted dodge was Textbook.





For Bonus points though - Going back to the Rwandan Massacre - those rules require the Consent of both parties to deploy - and I'm hazarding a guess that if you are intent on comitting a Genocide, then you aren't going to give consent for a Peacekeeping mission...

[Katman]

I didn't ask for what the rules say.

I asked for YOU to articulate when it's okay.

And then pointed out that I didn't think you'd be able to - and your attempted dodge was Textbook.

If, in your role as a peacekeeper, you had someone advancing on you with the clear intent of harming you or people you have been assigned to protect, then it is clearly permissible for you to use appropriate (but measured) force to remove that threat.

It would probably be considered bad form to shoot the innocent person behind him as well, in the hope you could just shrug it off as collateral damage, though.

[Katman]

For Bonus points though - Going back to the Rwandan Massacre - those rules require the Consent of both parties to deploy - and I'm hazarding a guess that if you are intent on comitting a Genocide, then you aren't going to give consent for a Peacekeeping mission...

Well there were some peacekeepers there so I'm assuming that they had some form of consent.

There just weren't anywhere near enough of them.

[Katman]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/dec/19/theobserver3

[husaberg]

The rules regarding the use of force in a peacekeeping mission are quite specific.

https://peacekeeping.un.org/en/principles-of-peacekeeping

Not true the rules of engagement are actually specific to each mission carried out.
The outcome of the failure of the Rwandian mission was the rules of engagement were that far removed from the actual situation that they didn't allow the peace keepers to even protect themselves let alone the civilians that were being targeted.

The same thing occurred in the Balkans but the result was worse in Somalia

The independent report, commissioned by Secretary-General Kofi Annan, showed a UN peacekeeping mission in Rwanda doomed from the start by an insufficient mandate and later destroyed by the Security Council's refusal to strengthen it once the killings began. And it showed UN officials - Annan and then-Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali among them - unable or unwilling to act on information from the field that a massive slaughter was occurring and that they needed to do something to stop it.

Coupled with another self-critical analysis of the UN role in the fall of Srebrenica during the Bosnian war, the report is sure to fuel the growing international debate about the imperative of the United Nations and its member governments to stop grave violations of human rights.

In a statement, Annan acknowledged the systematic failure of the United Nations and expressed his "deep remorse" on behalf of the organization. Annan, who was head of UN peacekeeping operations during the genocide, commissioned the report to find out the truth about the UN role in the massacre and to learn from the mistakes. He appointed a three-man team to conduct the 6-month-long analysis, and turned over UN files, cables and archives as well as UN personnel for testimony.

Former Swedish Prime Minister Ingvar Carlsson led the team and was joined by former South Korean Foreign Minister Han Sung-Joo and Maj. Gen. Rufus Modupe Kupolati of Nigeria. "Our conclusion is there is one overriding failure which explains why the UN could not stop or prevent the genocide, and that is a lack of resources and a lack of will - a lack of will to take on the commitment necessary to prevent the genocide," Carlsson said at a press conference Thursday.

The United Nations launched its peacekeeping mission for Rwanda in October 1993 to monitor a cease-fire agreement between the Rwandan Hutu government and the rebel Rwandese Patriotic Front. The mission, which was not allowed to use military force to achieve its aims, was limited to investigating breaches in the cease-fire, helping humanitarian aid deliveries and contributing to the security of the capital, Kigali. The mission proved insufficient after the government launched the slaughter of an estimated 800,000 minority Tutsis and moderate Hutus following the downing of the Rwandan president's plane on April 6, 1994.

The report faulted the United Nations in several key areas leading up to that date, including its failure to act on a now-famous cable sent by the force commander, Canadian Lt. Gen. Romeo Dallaire on Jan. 11, 1994 warning of the risk of genocide. The cable was received by Annan and wasn't shared with the Security Council and didn't receive the follow-up such an important piece of evidence deserved, the report said. In addition, the United Nations and Security Council virtually ignored a groundbreaking assessment by the UN human rights investigator for Rwanda who raised the possibility in August 1993 that a genocide might occur.

It was not just a lack of number that didn't prevent the slaughter it was lack of ROI that was suitable to the situation.


Note out of the link.

3. Non-use of force except in self-defence and defence of the mandate

UN peacekeeping operations are not an enforcement tool. However, they may use force at the tactical level, with the authorization of the Security Council, if acting in self-defence and defence of the mandate.
In certain volatile situations, the Security Council has given UN peacekeeping operations “robust” mandates authorizing them to “use all necessary means” to deter forceful attempts to disrupt the political process, protect civilians under imminent threat of physical attack, and/or assist the national authorities in maintaining law and order.

Some actual real rules of engagement and how it actually works or doesn't.
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a284086.pdf

[TheDemonLord]

If, in your role as a peacekeeper, you had someone advancing on you with the clear intent of harming you or people you have been assigned to protect, then it is clearly permissible for you to use appropriate (but measured) force to remove that threat.

Measured? Does that include Suppressive Machinegun fire? Artillery? Airstrikes? Drone Strikes? If we are talking about a mob of Machete wielding killers - how do you evaluate Measured?


It would probably be considered bad form to shoot the innocent person behind him as well, in the hope you could just shrug it off as collateral damage, though.

Indeed, Collateral Damage is always 'bad form', but it's inevitable. So, I'll ask again - what is YOUR scenario where it is Justified?

Again - I don't think you have a scenario where you'll accept any form of it.


Well there were some peacekeepers there so I'm assuming that they had some form of consent.

There just weren't anywhere near enough of them.

The people that invited them were the first ones killed, that sparked the Genocide (if memory serves)

[Katman]

Measured? Does that include Suppressive Machinegun fire? Artillery? Airstrikes? Drone Strikes?

That doesn't sound like any sort of peacekeeping mission to me.

In fact, it sounds more like you're caught up in one of your little Call of Duty fantasies.

[oldrider]

Federal Reserve’s Interest-Rate Hikes Have Erased $5-Trillion in Market Equity:- https://needtoknow.news/2018/12/federal-reserves-interest-rate-hikes-erased-5-trillion-market-equity/ :msn-wink:

"The Fed lowered interest rates to 0% for the Obama Administration and kept them there for the first seven, with the exception of a increase of 0.25% in late 2015. By contrast, interest has been raised eight times since Trump was elected. The increase now stands at 2.25%."

[husaberg]

That doesn't sound like any sort of peacekeeping mission to me.

In fact, it sounds more like you're caught up in one of your little Call of Duty fantasies.
I see Santa never bought you common sense or a dose of reality.
but he already had gifted you those law reforms in the mid 80's and the changes to the marriage act.
Maybe seeing as it so easy, you should thrill us all with your rules of engagement for peacekeeping that wil work and not kill all the perace keepers or the people they are supposed to protect.

[Katman]

Maybe seeing as it so easy, you should thrill us all with your rules of engagement for peacekeeping that wil work and not kill all the perace keepers or the people they are supposed to protect.

You should probably talk to Romeo Dallaire about it.

He'd be likely to have more ideas than me.

[husaberg]

You should probably talk to Romeo Dallaire about it.

He'd be likely to have more ideas than me.
The algae at the bottom of my pool have more effective ideas than you.
You consistently make claims but dont offer any solutions but yet claim to still know better. Your narcissism is laughable
Romeo Dallie wanted and actually begged that they needed to use far more force than was mandated.
Mentioning him is amusing considering you never even knew there was a UN peace keeping mission until yesterday.
Thats what makes me laugh about people like you always claim to much or not enough force was used, Its exactly like TDL said its a no win situation.
If the UN force had of stopped the killing you would be posting thread after thread about over reaction and excessive force like you do all over KB.

[Katman]

Romeo Dallie wanted and actually begged that they needed to use far more force than was mandated.

You should go digging for some dirt on him.

You never know, you might find he once took photos of his children in the bath.

I'm sure that would make your Xmas complete.

[husaberg]

You should go digging for some dirt on him.

You never know, you might find he once took photos of his children in the bath.

I'm sure that would make your Xmas complete.


You might want to go back two pages and see i posted a quote from him.
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131119715#post1131119715
Before you even knew who he was or that he was in Rwanda begging to great approvial to use more force and change the ROI.
He doesn't support your view that holding hands and singing kumbaya would have stoped the genocide or that the use of force is only to be used after all other means fail.
Hes a Solider used to making liife or death decisions not like you a narcissistic hypocritical keyboard warrior.

Ps you should see what he says about the holocaust his mother watched her friends die. You should tell him the jews only died of malnutrition and disease

The Tutsis were a minority in Rwanda, and their plight was personal for Dallaire. His Dutch mother had watched friends die in the Holocaust, and he had been raised on stories of heroic Canadian soldiers who brought hope to war-torn Europe.

A French Canadian raised in Montreal, Dallaire had experienced discrimination first-hand and was determined to protect the Tutsi minority. But he soon found his was a lone voice.
Dallaire also heard the Hutu government-run radio tell listeners that Tutsis were "nothing but cockroaches," broadcasting names of people to be murdered and instructions on how to mutilate and kill them.
It was an echo of past genocides. In Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge called their victims "worms." To the Nazis, Jews were "vermin."
Dallaire says he and his troops moved through entire villages of dead, sometimes clearing paths through corpses with their bare hands.

Here is some of his cable

To: Baril/DPKO/UNATIONS NEW YORK

From: Dallaire/UNAMIR/KIGALI

Subject: Request for protection for informant

Attn: MGen Baril Room No.2052

Force commander put in contact with informant by very very important government politician. Informant is a top level trainer in the cadre of Interhamwearmed militia of MRND.

He informed us he was in charge of last Saturday's demonstrations which aims were to target deputies of opposition parties coming to ceremonies and Belgian soldiers. They hoped to provoke the RPF BN to engage (being fired upon) the demonstrators and provoke a civil war. Deputies were to be assassinated upon entry or exit from Parliament. Belgian troops were to be provoked and if Belgians soldiers resorted to force a number of them were to be killed and thus guarantee Belgian withdrawal from Rwanda.

Then the outcome

ON JAN. 11, 1994, Gen. Romeo Dallaire, commander of U.N. forces in Rwanda, cabled headquarters that a key informer had told him a campaign was underway to register all Tutsi for purposes of their early killing. So testifying to Congress the other day, Alain Destexhe, the Belgian senator who initiated an exhaustive Belgian inquiry into the Rwanda genocide, asked, "How many times since 1945 has the U.N. received a fax from its force commander in a country warning of the likely possibility of an extermination?" Yet when Gen. Dallaire proposed an urgent arms-recovery operation, he was told the mission did not lie within his mandate. Instead he was instructed to ask the Belgian, French and American ambassadors simply to warn the Rwandan president allegedly planning a massacre.

[Viking01]

And not a colouring-in book in sight.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/24/trump-book-picks-recommendations-2018

[pritch]

And not a colouring-in book in sight.


It's highly unlikely that there will ever be a Trump Presidential Library, but if there ever is, it will only contain colouring books.

The books in his list are mostly by Fox "News" staff all of whom are shameless sycophants, and none of which he would have read. I can't wait to read them try to explain how they tried to warn us he was a crook - after his arse is busted.

[husaberg]

It's highly unlikely that there will ever be a Trump Presidential Library, but if there ever is, it will only contain colouring books.

The books in his list are mostly by Fox "News" staff all of whom are shameless sycophants, and none of which he would have read. I can't wait to read them try to explain how they tried to warn us he was a crook - after his arse is busted.
As he still refuses to release his tax records despite promises he would may i suggest trump will have a Cooking Book

[TheDemonLord]

That doesn't sound like any sort of peacekeeping mission to me.

In fact, it sounds more like you're caught up in one of your little Call of Duty fantasies.

Are you sure about that?

https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/bint-jbeil-lebanon-french-un-peacekeeping-soldiers-stand-near-their-picture-id74438605

I mean, Really sure?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Panhard_AML_in_the_Mus%C3%A9e_des_Blind%C3%A9 s,_France,_pic-1.JPG#/media/File:Panhard_AML_in_the_Mus%C3%A9e_des_Blind%C3%A9 s,_France,_pic-1.JPG

You say appropriate to the Threat, so when the threat is a Mob (Hundreds, possibly thousands or more) people armed (which, as I'm sure you'll be aware, isn't an exaggeration of what really happened) I presented you with some common options for use against multiple Hostile threats (Machine gun fire, and Area-effect weaponary) to prevent your positing from being overrun.

And now your changing tune (again).

I think it also bears repeating that you've still not articulated any scenario where you think the loss of Innocent life would justify the actions taken.

Here's what I'm starting to suspect - you know damn well what your principles are - which is you will never accept any innocent loss of life.

But you can't bring yourself to admit that to me, because you know I will simply point to multiple real world scenarios (of which Rwanda is perhaps the most clear) that failing to act, for fear of hurting/killing innocents can and will lead to much more innocents being hurt or killed.

[Katman]

But you can't bring yourself to admit that to me, because you know I will simply point to multiple real world scenarios (of which Rwanda is perhaps the most clear) that failing to act, for fear of hurting/killing innocents can and will lead to much more innocents being hurt or killed.

If you truly believe that the international community (predominantly America and the UK) didn't get further involved in Rwanda because they were worried about the backlash that they might encounter from hurting/killing innocents, then you are considerably more delusional than I've ever given you credit for.

[TheDemonLord]

If you truly believe that the international community (predominantly America and the UK) didn't get further involved in Rwanda because they were worried about the backlash that they might encounter from hurting/killing innocents, then you are considerably more delusional than I've ever given you credit for.

But you wouldn't have given them any credit either.

All it would take would be one Questionable action, a bad bit of Intel or a bad choice made in the heat of Battle - and you'd be all over them like a Rash. Protesting, calling them Warmongers, Demanding Inquiries, Accusing them of profiteering, Something to do with the Jews etc.

You say you support Peacekeeping, yet on the 3 times I've tried to nail you down to a scenario where Force is justified, even in a peacekeeping context - you've refused to answer it.

You like the idea, but you cannot stomach the reality.

The Greatest irony being that this hesitation/reluctance/unwillingness is exactly what caused the Failure of the Peacekeeping mission in Rwanda.

[husaberg]

If you truly believe that the international community (predominantly America and the UK) didn't get further involved in Rwanda because they were worried about the backlash that they might encounter from hurting/killing innocents, then you are considerably more delusional than I've ever given you credit for.

You do realise that the UK and the USA .are only two members of the UN don't you.
Why didn't Russia send troops
Seeing as you are a bit lacking lets see where else the US was comitted arround that time.
US DEPLOYMENTS
1992: Sierra Leone: Operation Silver Anvil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Silver_Anvil), Following the April 29 coup that overthrew President (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Sierra_Leone) Joseph Saidu Momoh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Saidu_Momoh), a United States European Command (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_European_Command) (USEUCOM) Joint Special Operations Task Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Special_Operations_Command) evacuated 438 people (including 42 Third Country nationals) on May 3. Two Air Mobility Command (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Mobility_Command) (AMC) C-141s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-141_Starlifter) flew 136 people from Freetown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown), Sierra Leone, to the Rhein-Main Air Base (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhein-Main_Air_Base) in Germany and nine C-130 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-130_Hercules) sorties carried another 302 people to Dakar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakar), Senegal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senegal).[RL30172] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#endn ote_RL30172)
1992–1996: Bosnia and Herzegovina: Operation Provide Promise (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Provide_Promise) was a humanitarian relief operation in Bosnia and Herzegovina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina) during the Yugoslav Wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars), from July 2, 1992, to January 9, 1996, which made it the longest running humanitarian airlift in history.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#cite _note-10)
1992: Kuwait: On August 3, 1992, the United States began a series of military exercises in Kuwait, following Iraqi refusal to recognize a new border drawn up by the United Nations and refusal to cooperate with UN inspection teams.[RL30172] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#endn ote_RL30172)
1992–2003: Iraq: Iraqi no-fly zones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones), The U.S., United Kingdom, and its Gulf War allies declared and enforced "no-fly zones" over the majority of sovereign Iraqi airspace, prohibiting Iraqi flights in zones in southern Iraq and northern Iraq, conducting aerial reconnaissance, and several specific attacks on Iraqi air-defense systems as part of the UN mandate. Often, Iraqi forces continued throughout a decade by firing on U.S. and British aircraft patrolling no-fly zones.(See also Operation Northern Watch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northern_Watch), Operation Southern Watch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Southern_Watch)) [RL30172] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#endn ote_RL30172)
1993–1995: Bosnia: Operation Deny Flight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deny_Flight), On April 12, 1993, in response to a United Nations Security Council passage of Resolution 816 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_816), U.S. and NATO enforced the no-fly zone over the Bosnian airspace, prohibited all unauthorized flights and allowed to "take all necessary measures to ensure compliance with [the no-fly zone restrictions]."
1993: Somalia: Battle of Mogadishu, or the First Battle of Mogadishu. October 3–4, 1993, Task Force Ranger, made up largely of the 75th Ranger Regiment and Delta Force entered hostile urban area Mogadishu to seize two high ranking S.N.A. leaders. Two American UH-60 Black Hawks are shot down, 18 Americans are killed in action, with another 73 wounded, and 1 captured.
1993: Macedonia: On July 9, 1993, President Clinton reported the deployment of 350 U.S. soldiers to the Republic of Macedonia to participate in the UN Protection Force to help maintain stability in the area of former Yugoslavia.[RL30172] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#endn ote_RL30172)
1994: Bosnia: Banja Luka incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banja_Luka_incident), NATO become involved in the first combat situation when NATO U.S. Air Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Air_Force) F-16 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16) jets shot down four of the six Bosnian Serb J-21 Jastreb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-21_Jastreb) single-seat light attack jets for violating UN-mandated no-fly zone.
1994–1995: Haiti: Operation Uphold Democracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Uphold_Democracy), U.S. ships had begun embargo against Haiti. Up to 20,000 U.S. military troops were later deployed to Haiti to restore democratically elected Haiti President Jean-Bertrand Aristide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bertrand_Aristide) from a military regime which came into power in 1991 after a major coup.[RL30172] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#endn ote_RL30172)
1994: Macedonia: On April 19, 1994, President Clinton reported that the U.S. contingent in Macedonia had been increased by a reinforced company of 200 personnel.[RL30172] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#endn ote_RL30172)
1995: Bosnia: Operation Deliberate Force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deliberate_Force), On August 30, 1995, U.S. and NATO aircraft began a major bombing campaign of Bosnian Serb Army (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Serb_Army) in response to a Bosnian Serb mortar attack on a Sarajevo market (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markale_massacres#Second_massacre) that killed 37 people on August 28, 1995. This operation lasted until September 20, 1995. The air campaign along with a combined allied ground force of Muslim and Croatian Army against Serb positions led to a Dayton Agreement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dayton_Agreement) in December 1995 with the signing of warring factions of the war. As part of Operation Joint Endeavor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Joint_Endeavor), U.S. and NATO dispatched the Implementation Force (IFOR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFOR)) peacekeepers to Bosnia to uphold the Dayton agreemen

The UN deployments of the same era




<tbody>
1991–1995
United Nations Angola Verification Mission II (UNAVEM II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Angola_Verification_Mission_II))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/Flag_of_Angola.svg/23px-Flag_of_Angola.svg.png Angola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angola)
Angolan Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Civil_War)



1992–1994
United Nations Operation in Mozambique (ONUMOZ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Operation_in_Mozambique))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d0/Flag_of_Mozambique.svg/23px-Flag_of_Mozambique.svg.png Mozambique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique)
Mozambican Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambican_Civil_War)



1992–1993
United Nations Operation in Somalia I (UNOSOM I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Operation_in_Somalia_I))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Flag_of_Somalia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Somalia.svg.png Somalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia)
Somali Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Civil_War)



1993–1997
United Nations Observer Mission in Liberia (UNOMIL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Observer_Mission_in_Liberia))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Flag_of_Liberia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Liberia.svg.png Liberia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia)
First Liberian Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Liberian_Civil_War)



1993–1994
United Nations Observer Mission Uganda-Rwanda (UNOMUR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Observer_Mission_Uganda-Rwanda))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Flag_of_Rwanda_%281962%E2%80%932001%29.svg/23px-Flag_of_Rwanda_%281962%E2%80%932001%29.svg.png Rwanda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwanda)
Rwandan Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Civil_War)



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Flag_of_Uganda.svg/23px-Flag_of_Uganda.svg.png Uganda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda)


1993–1996
United Nations Assistance Mission for Rwanda (UNAMIR (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Assistance_Mission_for_Rwanda))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/18/Flag_of_Rwanda_%281962%E2%80%932001%29.svg/23px-Flag_of_Rwanda_%281962%E2%80%932001%29.svg.png Rwanda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwanda)
Rwandan Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Civil_War)



1993–1995
United Nations Operation in Somalia II (UNOSOM II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Operation_in_Somalia_II))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Flag_of_Somalia.svg/23px-Flag_of_Somalia.svg.png Somalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia)
Somali Civil War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Civil_War)



1994
United Nations Aouzou Strip Observer Group (UNASOG (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_Nations_Aouzou_Strip_Observ er_Group&action=edit&redlink=1))
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Flag_of_Chad.svg/23px-Flag_of_Chad.svg.png Chad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chad)
Aouzou Strip dispute (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aouzou_Strip)



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Flag_of_Libya_%281977%E2%80%932011%29.svg/23px-Flag_of_Libya_%281977%E2%80%932011%29.svg.png Libya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya)

</tbody>


Note the 13 US soliders killed in Somalia where there bodies were draged through the streets
Afterwards the US voters were not keen on deploying troops unless it was in the US interst or the ROI allowed the troops to have a fair go at protecting themselves.
The US would haver needed congressional approvial to send troops after somalia that would not hve happened.
In rwandia the Belgian troops were withdrawn after 10 or so were killed odd you never focused on that.
Over the last 12 months Russia contributed 7500 less peace keepers than Ethiopia did
7000 less than Bangladesh.
The UN was running the peace keeping mission in Rwanda not the US.

AS TDL said that you claimed was not true, the US was damned if thry did dammed if they didn't.
The more you post the more desperate you get, the more it proves he was right all along.

[Katman]

But you wouldn't have given them any credit either:sick:.

Go back and re-read post #4786

[TheDemonLord]

Go back and re-read post #4786

Or, you could outline the scenario where the use of Force is Justified, even if it means innocent civilians Killed or Wounded.

But who are we kidding, you can't and you won't.

[Katman]

Or, you could outline the scenario where the use of Force is Justified, even if it means innocent civilians Killed or Wounded.

But who are we kidding, you can't and you won't.

Have another read - and let the words sink in for a minute or two.


‘Look, if something happens in Rwanda-Burundi, we don't care. Take it off the list. US national interest is not involved and we can't put all these silly humanitarian issues on lists, like important problems like the Middle East, North Korea, and so on. Just make it go away.’

[husaberg]

Or, you could outline the scenario where the use of Force is Justified, even if it means innocent civilians Killed or Wounded.

But who are we kidding, you can't and you won't.


Have another read - and let the words sink in for a minute or two.

You still haven't answered simple questions what you state to be a simple task.
Give us the rules of engagement you stated peace keepers could be effective under whilst 100% sure every possible other scenario was able to discounted before lethal force was used.

[TheDemonLord]

Have another read - and let the words sink in for a minute or two.

That is neither your statement, nor a scenario where you will accept innocent people being killed or injured as justified.

As I said, you won't, because you can't.

[Katman]

That is neither your statement, nor a scenario where you will accept innocent people being killed or injured as justified.

As I said, you won't, because you can't.

I'm not interested in playing your autistic little game of inventing scenarios where the loss of innocent human life can be passed off as 'acceptable' or 'justified'.

I'm interested in figuring out why the international community abandoned hundreds of thousands of Rwandans to their horrific fate.

America's reasoning appears to be crystal clear.

Like I've said before.....World Police? - what a crock of shit.

[husaberg]

I'm not interested in playing your autistic little game of inventing scenarios where the loss of innocent human life can be passed off as 'acceptable' or 'justified'.

I'm interested in figuring out why the international community abandoned hundreds of thousands of Rwandans to their horrific fate.

America's reasoning appears to be crystal clear.

Like I've said before.....World Police? - what a crock of shit.

Invented senario's?
That was you.
Its about time You post the ROI where the UN forces can do what you claim is possible for them to do.
The ROI where the loss of any human human life is only a last resort yet the peace keepers can still protect themselves and victims was created by you.
The Rwandans weren't abandoned the UN peace keepers were deployed they were just unable to do anything including protect themselves because of the insufficient ROI.
Funny thing is the insucficent ROI are designed to appease dullards like you.
If the had of intervended and prevented the Genocide you would be bleating on about excessive use of force and killing innocents.
Its a no win situation, Damned if they Do Damned if they don't
TDL has been real patient thus far with your obvious trolling.

You have still never explained why Russia never went in there and stopped it.

France, China and Russia opposed involvement in what was seen as an "internal affair".
After all they had no problems Selling Guns to Africa they also supported Ethiopia with Troops as Did Cuba during their war..
While selling Guns and Tanks to their opposition in Somalia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogaden_War
Ciina was a Major Supplier to Rwanda military as was France.
Russia was involved Directly with Troops and Advisors or though their Proxy Cuba in every conflict in that region but not this one.
It must be because Rwanda a landlocked country with nowhere to build a Naval base to threaten the Suez canal


Not to mention Angolia and Eritrea

The dispatch of 36,000 Cuban soldiers to Angola from November 1975 to April 1976 stunned the world and ushered in a period of large-scale operations, including 16,000 Cuban soldiers in Ethiopia in late 1977; Cuban military missions in Congo Brazzaville, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, and Benin; and, above all, the continuing presence in Angola that peaked in 1988 with 52,000 soldiers.

Ps France had Troops in Rwanda before and During the GEnocide they also trained the Military supplies Gun and Ammo.
Yet later France was very active at the UN in the discussions about the reinforcement of the UNAMIR in May 1994. In front of the inertia of the international community, France obtained the backing of the UN to lead Opération Turquoise from June 22 to August 22, 1994. The declared goal was to protect the "threatened populations," both by the genocide and by the military conflict between the FPR and the temporary Rwandan government.

[Katman]

Its about time You post the ROI where the UN forces can do what you claim is possible for them to do.


Refer post #4834.

[husaberg]

Refer post #4834.
Thats not an aswer thats a troll misdirection
You are the one who suggests that it is possible to defend people with force being used only after every other possible scenario is tried that's not at all what an experienced military leader would ever suggest because his first concern is the safety of his troops.
Its time you put up or shut up and admit you are way out of your depth and far beyond your knowlege base.
Afterall you didn't even know the UN had peacekeeping troops in Rwanda otherwise you wouldn't have suggested if they were there it would have prevented the genocide.

[Katman]

....otherwise you wouldn't have suggested if they were there it would have prevented the genocide.

If you remember rightly, it was Romeo Dallaire who suggested the genocide could have been prevented if he'd had 5000 peacekeeping troops - not me.

[husaberg]

If you remember rightly, it was Romeo Dallaire who suggested the genocide could have been prevented if he'd had 5000 peacekeeping troops - not me.


Incorrect number were only a small part of a complex issue The majority of his correspondence to the UN was him begged for ROI that would allow him to do his job. Plus requesting and being refused permission to act on information where arms caches were.
Critters with agenda like to make noise that if only there were more troops it wouldn't have occurred but the fact his his hands were tied because his mandate relegated him to being an observer.
For a start off you mistakenly blamed it on Not having American troops there because you never even knew the UN being deployed there already.:tugger:

None of this is you answering what the ROI that meet your target of only using force as a last resort other possible methods had been exhausted would have been able to stop the genocide while keeping the peace keeping troops safe.
Remember Belgium withdrew its forces after they were killed as they were unable to defend themselves because of insufficient ROI. they had been demanding a change in the original UN mandate and when the UN refused to change it the withdrew their troops, It wasnt the UN that reduced the Number as you said it waa Belguim who did it as the troops were not able to protect themselves under the mandate and ROI.

Enough of the new diversion You stated that it could have been done now stump up with ROI.
Dallaire as a miltary leader puts the safety of his troops first so explain how you can achieve what you state is possible.

Its especially amusing to hear you going on about Dallaire considering a few days ago you never even knew there was an UN peace keeping mission in Rwanda at the time.:jerry:

[TheDemonLord]

I'm not interested in playing your autistic little game of inventing scenarios where the loss of innocent human life can be passed off as 'acceptable' or 'justified'.

I'm interested in figuring out why the international community abandoned hundreds of thousands of Rwandans to their horrific fate.

Husa's already pointed it out, but I think it bears repeating:

Look in the Mirror.

You're the reason.

Anytime the West acts, and innocent people inevitable die: people like you complain. You never give them any credit for ANY action, that ended up in an innocent loss of life. Even if it can be demonstrated, that the action resulted in less innocent loss of life than inaction.

From your quote - that you keep referring to, as if it's the be-all and end-all:


given the fiasco of the end of our involvement with Somalia [a few months later], that we probably wouldn't react [to Rwanda].

What Fiasco are they referring to? That would be the Public Backlash and outrage.

The whole point of asking you for the Scenario was to demonstrate that you have none.

If (as you are claiming, and I don't believe) you are so upset at their inaction in Rwanda, how about next time they take out a Genocidal Dictator, instead of conjuring conspiracies, calling for Inquiries and calling them Warmongers - you congratulate them.

[Katman]

What Fiasco are they referring to? That would be the Public Backlash and outrage.

No, it's more likely to just be the fact that they lost a few soldiers - and a couple of expensive helicopters.

[Katman]

how about - you congratulate them.

:killingme

[husaberg]

Serbia to prevent ethnic Cleansing.
Boutros-Ghali wanted 34,000; the Security Council authorized only 7,400..
Funny how Katman claimsfonly 5000 troops were used Rwanda genocide would not have happened.
Notice he still attermpts to blame the US when the UN was running the peacekeeping mission.
Why does he not attack Russia for not sending Troops or China or Belgum for withdrawing their troops.
Easy they are not America.
Like TDL states the winging no good excuestards like Katflam are the reason.
Damned if they do, Damned if they don't.

[Katman]

Funny how Katman claimsfonly 5000 troops were used Rwanda genocide would not have happened.

Once again, it was Romeo Dallaire who claimed it - not me.

And there's a good chance he'd have a considerably better idea than you would.

[husaberg]

Once again, it was Romeo Dallaire who claimed it - not me.

And there's a good chance he'd have a considerably better idea than you would.
prior you said he did say it, Yet you are sill to produce a Quote i challenged you to thus the claim was made by you and your ilk.
As i told you have have read his cables to the UN more troops wasnt his consistant request. A increased madates, approvial for Raids on weapons caches, Plus a rediefind roi were.
Like i said you never even knew the UN had peace keeping troops in Rwanda let alone who Dallaire was so don't go on claiming more stuff or you are some sort of expert on the matter.
You made all sorts of clams about preventing Rwandan Genocide and how it was the US's fault yet didn't even know there was a official UN peacekeeping mission there. EPIC.:laugh:

[Katman]

prior you said he did say it, Yet you are sill to produce a Quote i challenged you to thus the claim was made by you and your ilk.
As i told you have have read his cables to the UN more troops wasnt his consistant request. A increased madates, approvial for Raids on weapons caches, Plus a redininded roi were.
Like i said you never even knew the UN had peace keeping troops in Rwanda let alone who Dallaire was so don't go on claiming more stuff or you are some sort of expert on the matter.
You made all sorts of clams about preventing Rwandan Genocide and how it was the US's fault yet didn't even know there was a official UN peacekeeping mission there. EPIC.:laugh:

Have a read. It might give you a short break from being repeatedly proven to be a total utter moron in public.

https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/4d1da8752.pdf

[TheDemonLord]

No, it's more likely to just be the fact that they lost a few soldiers - and a couple of expensive helicopters.

Which, if it creates Public goodwill, is a small price to pay.

They lost some expensive Helicopters in the OBL raid too - but the public reaction was rather different. As Callous as this will sound - a Politician has Lives and Equipment they can gamble with, it's the public perception that they answer to.


:killingme

Oh the Irony.

Criticise America for not stepping in and being World Police in one occasion.
Criticise America for stepping in and being World Police in every other occasion.

But, we've demonstrated your critique over Rwanda is just hot air - you'll never accept the use of Force that kills/Maims Innocent Civillians - which means you don't accept the use of Force. If you want to be a principled Pacifist - that is your right, just be honest about it.

[husaberg]

Have a read. It might give you a short break from being repeatedly proven to be a total utter moron in public.

https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/4d1da8752.pdf

Why dont you read stuff before posting it nowhere at that tribunal did Romeo Dallaire make a submission to the tribinual
hint the people that did are listed in the last few pages.;)
So show us all the quote that it was a lack of numbers prior to the start of the genocide rather than the mandate being wrong the ROI being too restrictive or the UN failing to let him do his job that were the main causes.

[Katman]

But, we've demonstrated your critique over Rwanda is just hot air - you'll never accept the use of Force that kills/Maims Innocent Civillians - which means you don't accept the use of Force. If you want to be a principled Pacifist - that is your right, just be honest about it.

I have a two metre tall bookcase that is packed to overflowing with books almost solely covering New Zealand's involvement in wars - so I wouldn't call myself a pacifist per se.

But yes, I have very strong principles regarding the execution of war.

[husaberg]

Which, if it creates Public goodwill, is a small price to pay.

They lost some expensive Helicopters in the OBL raid too - but the public reaction was rather different. As Callous as this will sound - a Politician has Lives and Equipment they can gamble with, it's the public perception that they answer to.



Oh the Irony.

Criticise America for not stepping in and being World Police in one occasion.
Criticise America for stepping in and being World Police in every other occasion.

But, we've demonstrated your critique over Rwanda is just hot air - you'll never accept the use of Force that kills/Maims Innocent Civillians - which means you don't accept the use of Force. If you want to be a principled Pacifist - that is your right, just be honest about it.

The US lost 29 people in somaila
When the Mogadushi incident occured they only had 1200 people there the 10 or so lost was a big loss of Face
For instance in the first Golf war they only lost 149.
Pictures and Videos of american bodies getting dragged through streets tends to makes congress reticent to deploy troops. Not the cost of Helicopters
In Rwand the people realized this and ambushed and killed the Belgian UN troops leading to their immediate withdrawal when the UN refused to allow them to deployand protect themselves in such away it was safe.
Katman is the epitome of hypocary on almost any subject always ready to shift blame yet when questioned has no answers or evidence


.

But yes, I have very strong principles regarding the execution of war.
Yet no principals when it comes to telling the truth about German execution of jews.

[Katman]

Which, if it creates Public goodwill, is a small price to pay.

Make up your mind. Only a couple of posts ago you were trying to suggest it created a public backlash and outrage.

[Katman]

Why dont you read stuff before posting it nowhere at that tribunal did Romeo Dallaire make a submission to the tribinual


Did you read paragraphs 10.8 and 10.9?

In fact, the whole of Chapter 10 is well worth reading.

[husaberg]

Did you read paragraphs 10.8 and 10.9?

In fact, the whole of Chapter 10 is well worth reading.
Well post it then go on...
Show where he says it was only the number of troops rather than the mandate and the will of the UN to allow him to do this job.
Afterall you state the reason was 2500 troups not being there. Rather than any other reason.
Or do you just pick and choose.
Post the full quotes un edited or just slink off and change the subject again.

[jasonu]

Funny how Katman claimsfonly 5000 troops were used Rwanda genocide would not have happened.
t.

Executive Outcomes had that situation on the way to being controlled with only 2 or 3 hundred properly trained soldiers until the UN told them to leave.

[Katman]

Well post it then go on...

It's right there in the link I posted.

(Or has your search capability suddenly deserted you?)

[husaberg]

It's right there in the link I posted.

(Or has your search capability suddenly deserted you?)
As a said post the quotes

[Katman]

As a said post the quotes

As I said, fuck off and read the link.

[husaberg]

Executive Outcomes had that situation on the way to being controlled with only 2 or 3 hundred properly trained soldiers until the UN told them to leave.
Clinton was in power by then and wanted out the peak deployment was 25000 and at the time was down to 1200

Prior to the incident and actually the reson they were after the leaders was


On 5 June 1993, one of the deadliest attacks on U.N. forces in Somalia occurred when 24 Pakistani soldiers were ambushed and killed in an Aidid-controlled area of Mogadishu.
Any hope of a peaceful resolution of the conflict quickly vanished. The next day, the U.N. Security Council issued Resolution 837, calling for the arrest and trial of those that carried out the ambush. U.S. warplanes and U.N. troops began an attack on Aidid's stronghold. Aidid remained defiant, and the violence between Somalis and U.N. forces escalated.



Afterwards they Following the battle, President Clinton ordered that additional troops be added to protect U.S. soldiers and aid in withdrawal. All military actions were ceased on 6 October, except in cases of self-defense.] Clinton called for a full withdrawal by 31 March 1994. Conforming to this request, most troops were out of the country by 25 March 1994. A few hundred U.S. Marines remained offshore, but were completely removed from the area by March 1995. The U.N. withdrew as well.

Legacy
U.S. Secretary of Defense Les Aspin resigned his post late in 1993. He was specifically blamed for denying the U.S. Army permission to have its own armor units in place in Somalia, units which might have been able to break through to the trapped soldiers earlier in the battle. U.S. political leaders thought the presence of tanks would spoil the peacekeeping image of the mission.



As I said, fuck off and read the link.
Quoted to show your desperation nd lack of ability to post the quote you claim says one thing but actaully says what i said all along.
If you had nothing to hide why is it you refuse to post the quotes:nya:

[Katman]

Quoted to show your desperation nd lack of ability to post the quote you claim says one thing but actaully says what i said all along.
If you had nothing to hide why is it you refuse to post the quotes

Everyone reading this thread has the ability to read the study that I provided the link for.

I'm clearly not trying to hide anything.

[husaberg]

Everyone reading this thread has the ability to read the study that I provided the link for.

I'm clearly not trying to hide anything.
Show the quotes then ps anyone reading the thread would already be well familar with your inability to provide evidence so would not be surprised that you claim to have it but refuse to provide it.

[Katman]

And well after the genocide, certain Americans were still showing their true colours regarding humanitarian issues.


In early 2000, as this report was being written, the leading Republican presidential candidate was asked by a television interviewer what he would do as President “if, God forbid, another Rwanda should take place.” George W. Bush replied: “We should not send our troops to stop ethnic cleansing and genocide outside our strategic interest. I would not send the United States troops into Rwanda.”

[husaberg]

And well after the genocide, certain Americans were still showing their true colours regarding humanitarian issues.
How about you post the quotes before you gish gallop to another subject unless of course the quotes are not what you saifd they were;)

[Katman]

Not that there's much to be said about some UN peacekeeping missions though.

https://apnews.com/e6ebc331460345c5abd4f57d77f535c1?utm_campaign=Soci alFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP

[TheDemonLord]

I have a two metre tall bookcase that is packed to overflowing with books almost solely covering New Zealand's involvement in wars - so I wouldn't call myself a pacifist per se.

Then name your Scenario.


But yes, I have very strong principles regarding the execution of war.

AKA - Being a Pacifist.


Make up your mind. Only a couple of posts ago you were trying to suggest it created a public backlash and outrage.

If the People are grateful that their country sends it's troops to Fight and Die on others Behalf - then the loss of Soldiers/Equipment is easy to accept (Think 'Martyrs' and 'Heroes')
If the People are openly Hostile to their country sending it's troops to Fight and Die on others Behalf - then the loss of even a single Soldier is impossible to accept (Think 'Tragedy' and 'catastrophe')

The problem is, you (and many like you) are ALWAYS openly hostile (and disproportionately vocal about it too) - and so, rather than run the risk of bad PR and getting unelected, they sit back and do nothing.

There are other compounding issues to be fair - such as the US citizenry being tired of always footing the majority of the Bill, always having their Soldiers being the ones that die, international condemnation (see the Openly Hostile comment), uncomfortable with using multi-billion dollar weaponary and assets against peasants armed with AK47s and RPG7s etc. etc.

[Katman]

.....uncomfortable with using multi-billion dollar weaponary and assets against peasants armed with AK47s and RPG7s etc. etc.

Seriously????

The cunts love it.

[husaberg]

Not that there's much to be said about some UN peacekeeping missions though.

https://apnews.com/e6ebc331460345c5abd4f57d77f535c1?utm_campaign=Soci alFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP
Not much to be sauid about you producing the quotes so giddy up for a Katman Gish Gallop
http://www.retrocrush.com/archive2003/vp/card.jpg

[TheDemonLord]

Seriously????

The cunts love it.

Some do, but they aren't the ones that Protest Washington and wave placards around...

[oldrider]

Vape store guy gets all over the top about Trumpware! = hilarious behaviour? :laugh:

<iframe width="280" height="210" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dtKJZupNg_g" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

Jewish Lobby Turns On Trump (Jewish action/reaction) http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=1334 - :shifty:

[oldrider]

The One Reason America Can't Police the World Anymore: Washington Is Broke :confused: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/50857.htm - :corn:

[Swoop]

Executive Outcomes had that situation on the way to being controlled with only 2 or 3 hundred properly trained soldiers until the UN told them to leave.
No surprises there.
If you want corruption, ineptitude and delusional retards with chips on their shoulders, get the UN involved.
340130

[oldrider]

Clever pic (photo shopped?) very apt. :lol:

[pritch]

Clever pic (photo shopped?) very apt. :lol:

Saw one yesterday: Abraham Lincoln holding his iPhone, and it wasn't photoshopped because Photoshop hadn't been invented then.

[oldrider]

Watch – Antifa Chants Death to America: ‘No Borders! No Wall! No USA at All!’??? - Agenda? :scratch: https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/08/12/watch-antifa-chants-death-to-america-no-borders-no-wall-no-usa-at-all/ - :facepalm:

Walls are a sign of pathetic incompetent government but USA government is in a state of chaos anyway - "short term measure" protect the country first then target removing the wall?

Isn't that a major part of what Trump was elected to do? :scratch:

[oldrider]

DONALD TRUMP DECLARES NATIONAL EMERGENCY????? - there are a lot of these reports cropping up on the nett. :corn:

<iframe width="280" height="158" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0zTDGqmnCqU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[sugilite]

Well, look at my location, I'm in the middle of it. Located in a small (by US standards) Farming community in the mid south. In other words what would be considered a Trump stronghold. I have been here a year now and here is the thing - First up I noticed how they celebrate patriotism here - every 3rd to 4th home at least has a flag or such like. They support their local sports teams to the max, right down to local school level. Bumper stickers and number plate surrounds abound for their sports teams, war vets (huge), USA flags and the like. How many Trump bumper stickers, MAGA hats, T-shirts and the like have I seen here in the last year. Just one lonely Trump bumper sticker - that's it. No one brings him up in conversation, most seem to be embarrassed to talk about it. The most common thing "folks" want to know around here is A: Where I'm from?, Followed by huh, why leave paradise for here?, and then What church do I go to?
If Trump has this huge blue collar following, I'm sure not seeing it around these parts, or any other place I have traveled through in the mid south.

[pritch]

DONALD TRUMP DECLARES NATIONAL EMERGENCY????? - there are a lot of these reports cropping up on the nett. :corn:


Not anywhere I've looked John. Even if he did declare one it would immediately be challenged in court because any idiot, apart from him and the half-wit journo who suggested it, can see that there isn't one.

He is going to travel down to look at the border now though - only two years after he took office...

[husaberg]

Not anywhere I've looked John. Even if he did declare one it would immediately be challenged in court because any idiot, apart from him and the half-wit journo who suggested it, can see that there isn't one.

He is going to travel down to look at the border now though - only two years after he took office...

The stuff oldie posts isnt necessarily connected with reality. Think of it as fodder for the gullible tin foilers and other religious nutters
The headlines clickbait for conspiracy idiots. it says a thing which is not actually what has occurred in the story itself yet the conspiracy theorists are not generally clever enough to figure that out.
Spreading this sort of fake conspiracy news doesn't worry him as he has a very tenuous grip on reality and genuinely seems lack the ability to comprehend the differences of conspiracy and reality anyway.

[oldrider]

The stuff oldie posts isnt necessarily connected with reality. Think of it as fodder for the gullible tin foilers and other religious nutters
The headlines clickbait for conspiracy idiots. it says a thing which is not actually what has occurred in the story itself yet the conspiracy theorists are not generally clever enough to figure that out.
Spreading this sort of fake conspiracy news doesn't worry him as he has a very tenuous grip on reality and genuinely seems lack the ability to comprehend the differences of conspiracy and reality anyway.

Top marks for consistency :tugger: When you have nothing to say - say nothing - take your place "permanently" at the top of the class. :first:

[husaberg]

Top marks for consistency :tugger: When you have nothing to say - say nothing - take your place "permanently" at the top of the class. :first:

Thats rather ironic considering the unsolicited conspiracy tripe to continually post on KB.
Also rather hypocritical considering when you are challenged about most of its racially motivated content and the lack of evidence to support it's content, you refuse to answer questions about either it content or your motivation to continually post the drivel.

[pritch]

Vice President Pence said this morning that the White House counsel's office is looking into the legality of Trump's declaring an emergency. That's interesting in itself because that office is there to protect the institution of the presidency, rather than whoever happens to be president at the time.

Word is that Trump is telling his people he wants a way out of this mess without looking as if he caved in. That could be a good trick.

[sugilite]

Should be quite easy to thwart that through the courts, legally he has to "Prove" a crisis exists. Akin to how most of his attempts at implementing a travel ban got swatted down.

[Swoop]

Walls are a sign of pathetic incompetent government...
Have you seen the video of Bill Clinton (as Prez) publicly saying a proper wall with Mexico was needed? After that there is Obama publicly saying a wall to decrease illegal immigration was needed?
It is a regular topic to drum up support, just that trump is following through with a campaign promise... (most unusual for a politician of ANY colour!).



First up I noticed how they celebrate patriotism here - every 3rd to 4th home at least has a flag or such like.
Yes, quite nice really. Australia has far more national flags flying there as well. NZ could take a lesson from both of them...

Someone I knew decided to "souvenir" a US flag from the roof of a hotel. After getting onto the roof he decided that he would possibly get shot for doing this, so nicked a Kalifornia Respooblik flag instead (far safer).

[husaberg]

It is a regular topic to drum up support, just that trump is following through with a campaign promise... (most unusual for a politician of ANY colour!).


The wall campaign promise was not jut i am going to build a wall
"I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me, and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great great wall on our southern border and I’ll have Mexico pay for that wall."

Donald Trump now requests Congress $18 billion for border barriers.


Trump gave varying figures for the cost of the wall during the campaign, from $8 billion to $12 billion.

Yet
The $18 billion for the border barrier is part of a $33 billion package, which also requests $5.7 billion for towers, surveillance equipment and other technology; $1 billion for road construction and maintenance; and $8.5 billion for border security personnel, according to The Wall Street Journal.


Buts lets see

Sept. 14, 2015
“So, let’s say it costs $4 or $5 billion. Our trade deficit with Mexico is $53 billion. So $4 or $5 billion is peanuts.” — Speech in Dallas

Oct. 7, 2015
“You mean to tell me I can’t take $7 billion and build a wall?” — Speech in Waterloo, Iowa

Oct. 14, 2015
“If the wall costs $6 billion to build, and you know we’re talking about 1,000 miles, it’s 2,000, but you need it on 1,000. The Great Wall of China, think of it, is 13,000 miles.” — Speech in Richmond, Va.

Feb. 9, 2016
“The wall is probably $8 billion.” — Interview on MSNBC

Feb. 17, 2016
Nov. 2, 2017
“First of all, they say the wall is going to cost $40 billion — the Democrats are saying. We’re talking less than half.” — Interview on Fox News
Jan. 18, 2018 Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
....The Wall will be paid for, directly or indirectly, or through longer term reimbursement, by Mexico, which has a ridiculous $71 billion dollar trade surplus with the U.S. The $20 billion dollar Wall is “peanuts” compared to what Mexico makes from the U.S. NAFTA is a bad joke!

The height of the proposed wall has roughly doubled and could grow even higher.
Jan. 16, 2016
“China built a wall that’s 13,000 miles long 2,000 years ago. My ambition is for ours to be much higher.” — Speech in Myrtle Beach, S.C. The height of the Great Wall of China averages 20 to 23 feet. Its tallest point is 46 feet.

Feb. 9, 2016
“I’m talking about precasts going up probably 35 to 40 feet up in the air. That’s high. That’s a real wall.” — Interview on MSNBC

Feb. 12, 2016
“The wall just got 10 feet higher.” — Speech in Tampa, Fla., after the former Mexican president said Mexico would not pay for it.

March 3, 2016
“But — and I used an example. And this isn’t necessarily what was said, but whatever was said, the wall’s 50 feet high. Is it going to be 45 feet or 40 feet? That could very well be. That could very well — he wants it to be higher.” — Republican presidential debate

March 30, 2016
Reporter: How high is this wall going to be lately? How high is it —

Mr. Trump: I think a good 35 feet. It’s getting higher all the time.

— Town hall on MSNBC

Jan. 11, 2018
“If you have a wall this thick and it’s solid concrete from ground to 32 feet high, which is a high wall, much higher than people planned. You go 32 feet up and you don’t know who’s over here. You’re here, you’ve got the wall and there’s some other people here.” — Interview with The Wall Street Journal

As for Obama i dont think he mentioned a wall well not in the quote i seen

In a series of tweets, Mr. Trump quoted Mr. Obama in 2005 saying, “We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked.”

He quoted Mrs. Clinton in 2015 saying, “I voted, when I was a Senator, to build a barrier to try to prevent illegal immigrants from coming in.”

[Swoop]

As for Obama i dont think he mentioned a wall well not in the quote i seen
All of the past prez. candidates have used it as an electioneering promise. (still looking for the vid I saw of their speeches).

Of interest is the change of immigration status caused by the leftists in '96.
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11515132/iirira-clinton-immigration
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/swtDFqaXy6Y" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

All of the past prez. candidates have used it as an electioneering promise. (still looking for the vid I saw of their speeches).

Of interest is the change of immigration status caused by the leftists in '96.
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11515132/iirira-clinton-immigration
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/swtDFqaXy6Y" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Did you watch the video nothing about a wall
Did you see the statement issued today from thefour ex presidents that Trump claimed they had said a wall was a good idea none of them even said they had talked to trump about a wall ever.
https://people.com/politics/donald-trump-lied-former-presidents-building-border-wall/

The facts:
President Donald Trump's recent claim that his predecessors endorsed his idea of a wall at the Mexican border got no support from the ex-presidents' club.

Trump stated in a Rose Garden news conference Friday: "This should have been done by all of the presidents that preceded me. And they all know it. Some of them have told me that we should have done it."
The four living ex-presidents do not back him up on this claim.

- "I have not discussed the border wall with President Trump, and do not support him on the issue," said Jimmy Carter.

- "The answer is no," said Angel Urena, speaking for Bill Clinton. "In fact, they've not talked since the inauguration."

- George W. Bush has not discussed the wall with Trump, said spokesman Freddy Ford.

Barack Obama – Yesterday, a spokesperson for Obama explicitly rejected Trump’s claim and reiterated his opposition to the wall via a statement from his office.
Obama,infact has not spoken with Trump since his inauguration, except for a brief exchange at George H.W. Bush’s funeral in Washington, D.C.
Vice President Pence was asked on the “Today” show Tuesday morning which previous presidents had told President Trump they wanted to build a wall. Pence did not give a direct answer.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/07/politics/former-presidents-trump-wall/index.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/every-living-president-has-refuted-trumps-claim-about-supporting-the-wall/


President Trump has made 6,420 false or misleading claims over 649 days
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/11/02/president-trump-has-made-false-or-misleading-claims-over-days/?utm_term=.cc2a41ddd97f


In an interview with the Wall Street Journal, Trump emphatically denied he had imposed many tariffs. “I mean, other than some tariffs on steel — which is actually small, what do we have? . . . Where do we have tariffs? We don’t have tariffs anywhere,” he insisted. The newspaper responded by printing a list of $305 billion tariffs on many types of U.S. imports.

[pritch]

Doncha just love it?

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintellectualist/news/trump-s-nj-gulf-club-allegedly-gave-fake-documents-to-its-undocumented-workforce-2vF9DhESPEagFEpDcixuvA/

[husaberg]

Doncha just love it?

https://mavenroundtable.io/theintellectualist/news/trump-s-nj-gulf-club-allegedly-gave-fake-documents-to-its-undocumented-workforce-2vF9DhESPEagFEpDcixuvA/


Trump has taken an aggressive anti-immigration stance as president. Meanwhile the Trump Winery in Virginia—now owned by Eric Trump—last week filed a petition with the Department of Labor to hire six more foreign guest workers at the winery, BuzzFeed News reported.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nILf08lRcBc

[pritch]

That was interesting too. I'd read about Ms Morales recently. What I like about the report I posted is that this is his golf club in New Jersey. The prosecutors there have passed the details to Mueller's team, but if the NJ state Attorney General goes after him that would be more serious. Trump can, in theory at least, pardon himself for federal crimes. He cannot pardon himself, or anybody else, for state crimes. Already the New York AG is after him, here's hoping the NJ AG gets with the programme too.

[husaberg]

That was interesting too. I'd read about Ms Morales recently. What I like about the report I posted is that this is his golf club in New Jersey. The prosecutors there have passed the details to Mueller's team, but if the NJ state Attorney General goes after him that would be more serious. Trump can, in theory at least, pardon himself for federal crimes. He cannot pardon himself, or anybody else, for state crimes. Already the New York AG is after him, here's hoping the NJ AG gets with the programme too.

He had a fair few out of court settlements with workers not being paid as well plus construction sites workers being illegal etc

[pritch]

He had a fair few out of court settlements with workers not being paid as well plus construction sites workers being illegal etc

A lot of people didn't get paid. There was mention today of a buildng project where he used illegal immigrant Poles who didn't get paid. As illegal immigrants they couldn't say much.

His last project in New York, the old Post Office, opened with about a dozen liens on it placed by unpaid contractors.

It's funny that he was accepted as the Republican candidate for President without vetting. When he applied to open a casino in Australia he was vetted, and his application was declined because of his mob connections. Who would have thought the Australian government had higher standards for casino operators than the US Government has for presidents?

[husaberg]

It's funny that he was accepted as the Republican candidate for President without vetting. When he applied to open a casino in Australia he was vetted, and his application was declined because of his mob connections. Who would have thought the Austrailian government had higher standards for casino operators than the US Government has for presidents?

You would think so seeing which one was started out by uptight sky pixie loving religious nutjobs and the other was a penal colony.

[oldrider]

Not everybody is happy.

Americans Need a Congress that Represents Americans - https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2019/01/10/americans-need-a-congress-that-represents-americans/ :rolleyes:

[jasonu]

it doesn't happen often but a politician has actually said something I can agree with.

https://www.ktvz.com/news/politics/cruz-people-outside-dc-are-not-concerned-with-russia-investigation/974496388

[pritch]

[QUOTE=jasonu;1131121901]it doesn't happen often but a politician has actually said something I can agree with.


An immigrant himself, and son of a Cuban immigrant, gets himself elected in Texas as a white supremacist.
Raphael Eduardo (call me Ted) Cruz. :killingme

[jasonu]

[QUOTE=jasonu;1131121901]it doesn't happen often but a politician has actually said something I can agree with.


An immigrant himself, and son of a Cuban immigrant, gets himself elected in Texas as a white supremacist.
Raphael Eduardo (call me Ted) Cruz. :killingme

Did you see that in the Herald?


Dopey old cunt.

[pritch]

[QUOTE=pritch;1131121969]

Did you see that in the Herald?


Dopey old cunt.

You voted for Trump and think Cruz talks sense and you call me dopey. Fuck! You need to smarten up. Seriously.

Actually experience suggests that it's useless trying to talk sense to MAGAts. On social media I just block the bastards. So in that light you can go back on ignore. Bye

[TheDemonLord]

You voted for Trump and think Cruz talks sense and you call me dopey. Fuck! You need to smarten up. Seriously.

Actually experience suggests that it's useless trying to talk sense to MAGAts. On social media I just block the bastards. So in that light you can go back on ignore. Bye

ECHO!
Echo.
echo...

CHAMBER!
Chamber.
chamber...

[jasonu]

Actually experience suggests that it's useless trying to talk sense to MAGAts. On social media I just block the bastards. So in that light you can go back on ignore. Bye

So you are an annoying old cunt on other sites too.
I guess by blocking those with opposing opinions you will be way more likely to think you are right.

[oldrider]

Interesting tweet? :scratch:

There is a border crisis right now, but the other crisis is the continued harassment of President @realDonaldTrump by the Mueller investigation… Special Counsel Mueller should be shut down & there should be no Mueller report. :shit: https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/1084948033446596609 - :corn:

[oldrider]

Article:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rVfWCBaFp4 :corn:


<iframe width="905" height="509" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_rVfWCBaFp4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Banditbandit]

https://scontent.fhlz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50008843_1113526018818289_254510132644282368_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent.fhlz2-1.fna&oh=fe5a0ee1d9de2af3d4686d5c73a54ffa&oe=5CC39AA9

[oldrider]

Questions:-

1) If true they will probably have to JFK him eventually.

2) If true they will probably have to JFK him eventually.

:mellow:

[Banditbandit]

Trump will not care what damage he does on his way down ..

One of Trump's former staff tells it ..


https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/109910504/trump-will-not-care-what-damage-he-causes-on-his-way-down?fbclid=IwAR33mpW5y6oa-XIjKhb0vc5quQMxQpkh7Lvo1KZqAhyl62OjMzxFBFADsks

[matt.of.the.ingh]

However you listen to podcasts, this is the guy your arguing about.
There are lots of different links, I'm sure one will work for you.

Comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds examine the life of Donald Trump SOURCES TOUR DATES REDBUBBLE MERCH

* Published: 14/11/2017 1:01:36 pm

* Episode Download link (141 MB): http://traffic.libsyn.com/thedollop/Trump_Part_1.mp3?dest-id=139738

* Show Notes: http://thedollop.libsyn.com/300a-donald-trump-part-one

* Episode feed: The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds - http://thedollop.libsyn.com/rss

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[mashman]

Trump will not care what damage he does on his way down ..

Not many of them have over their years... Somewhat ironically, that's all down to the people.

[oldrider]

Just keep repeating it over and over until it becomes accepted as the truth.

<iframe width="280" height="158" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qjUvfZj-Fm0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

Just keep repeating it over and over until it becomes accepted as the truth.

<iframe width="280" height="158" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qjUvfZj-Fm0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Can you remeber why clinton was impeached
Contrast the situation to Trumps
Who did worse. Clinton tried to lie and cover up a Affair
Trump used campaign funds lto pay off people, He also paid of media to buy the story to shut it down as well as ied to cover up an affair.

[YellowDog]

Can you remeber why clinton was impeached
Contrast the situation to Trumps
Who did worse. Clinton tried to lie and cover up a Affair
Trump used campaign funds lto pay off people, He also paid of media to buy the story to shut it down as well as ied to cover up an affair.

Surely Clinton is more famous for creating the Global Financial Crisis? It was triggered by his policy of getting no-hopers to take paper loans to buy properties they wouldn't ever be able to afford.

Much of the western world got screwed over with those worthless pieces of paper, believing them to have value.

Getting setup & sucked off by the Israeli plant, was nothing more than great entertainment :yes:

Trump's wall appears to be fully supported by all and far less of an issue here:

<iframe width="400" height="500" frameborder="0" src="https://www.bbc.com/news/av/embed/p06yhv5f/46935595"></iframe>

[husaberg]

Surely Clinton is more famous for creating the Global Financial Crisis? It was triggered by his policy of getting no-hopers to take paper loans to buy properties they wouldn't ever be able to afford.

Much of the western world got screwed over with those worthless pieces of paper, believing them to have value.

Getting setup & sucked off by the Israeli plant, was nothing more than great entertainment :yes:

Trump's wall appears to be fully supported by all and far less of an issue here:

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Say what?..............

[oldrider]

Opinions from people on the spot? (at the boarder?) :msn-wink: https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/status/1086789697852981248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AHenryMakow% 7Ctwcon%5Etimelinechrome&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F - Too little too late so those at fault blame Trump for their failures! :eek:

They could always ask Nancy Pelosi to cut back on her expenses to help pay for the wall? https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-documents-detail-nancy-pelosis-185000-codel-to-italy-and-ukraine-in-2015/?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=press%20release

[oldrider]

The adage:- "Where there is smoke there is fire" - springs to mind! - :shifty: https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-01-20-roger-stone-deep-state-plans-to-remove-potus-trump-vp-pence-to-install-pelosi-and-hillary-in-coup.html - :weird: - :wait:

[Voltaire]

Bloody boarders....they drink your beer:msn-wink: and don't do much of the housework.

[oldrider]

Build the wall they (US citizens?) say:- :confused: https://twitter.com/i/status/1088243754191020033 - Looks like they do need better control than at present? - Real or fake? :scratch:

Thought this was quite sound reasoning:- https://twitter.com/i/status/1076470772942671872

[husaberg]

Build the wall they (US citizens?) say:- :confused: https://twitter.com/i/status/1088243754191020033 - Looks like they do need better control than at present? - Real or fake? :scratch:

Thought this was quite sound reasoning:- https://twitter.com/i/status/1076470772942671872
Also if you cant figure out drugs are shipped into islands a wall won't stop shit
it didn't work For France in WW2 it didn't work for Germany along the atlantic
If you don't notice the guy in link 2 is standing in a dry riverbed.

[jasonu]

Also if you cant figure out drugs are shipped into islands a wall won't stop shit
it didn't work For France in WW2 it didn't work for Germany along the atlantic
If you don't notice the guy in link 2 is standing in a dry riverbed.

Not so much the drugs, more the scummy Beaners walking in for free welfare and such.

[husaberg]

Not so much the drugs, more the scummy Beaners walking in for free welfare and such.

climbing over tunneling getting a ladder or going under going around a wall creates only na inconvenience rather than a solution.
AS for the free welfare according to Trump they are just given a free bus ride back over the border or a job at one of his resorts or on the building site of one of his buildings.

ps Did you notice the guy in the first link was standing in a riverbed complaining about the lack of secure fencing in the riverbed.
In the first part you see the bank on the other side. Then you even see him climb up out of the riverbed an onto the bank to read the sign
This is the sort of crap only idiots follow and spread on the net. thus i am not surprised oldie found it.
340548

[oldrider]

This is the sort of crap only idiots follow and spread on the net. thus i am not surprised oldie found it.


Your "assumption" that everything is posted from a support point of view is totally childish as is your "assumption" that to criticise the left means that the critic supports the right!

Get over yourself ffs! :tugger:

[husaberg]

Your "assumption" that everything is posted from a support point of view is totally childish as is your "assumption" that to criticise the left means that the critic supports the right!

Get over yourself ffs! :tugger:

You are the one finding the links then taking the time to be spreading what is misleading information if your not doing it on purpose the only other explanation is you cant figure out its that is clearlyv misleading horseshit
So i ask you again did you not notice the clip you posted at link to where they were saying look at this this is why we need a wall was clearly filmed in a riverbed.
What is it
you never noticed it was in a riverbed?
or you did realise there is a real good reason not to put a fence let alone a wall in a watercourse but still you felt the need to spread it anyway?

340549

[Katman]

So i ask you again did you not notice the clip you posted at link to where they were saying look at this this is why we need a wall was clearly filmed in a riverbed.
What is it
you never noticed it was in a riverbed.

Do you realise that the Rio Grande forms part of the border between the US and Mexico and that it often runs dry?

And I don't think anyone has ever suggested building the wall in the middle of the riverbed.

Do I have to draw your attention to my signature again?

[husaberg]

Do you realise that the Rio Grande forms part of the border between the US and Mexico and that it often runs dry?

And I don't think anyone has ever suggested building the wall in the middle of the riverbed.

Do I have to draw your attention to my signature again?

As the rio grand is about a km wide its pretty safe to assume that is not where its filmed
if you also bothered to follo wthe the link oldie posted you would find exactly what was being suggested was there should be a wall built right where it was being filmed which is a dry riverbed.
Draw as much attention to you signature as you like.
It isnt going to make your stupid posts look any smarter just by adding my name to your signature.
340550340551340552
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248
So when he says look herev there is no wall when hes standing in a dry riverbed exactly where is he talking about.
Then says build the wall build the wall. do you think he was suggesting to build the wall somewhere elserather in the video where he said there is no wall.
Note as the rio grand runs parrarreel with the border for the short streetch of where it forms a small part of the border rather then straight through the middle of the bed like in the picture you suggesting its the rio grande is pretty thick.

[Katman]

As the rio grand is about a km wide its pretty safe to assume that is not where its filmed
if you also bothered to follo wthe the link oldie posted you would find exactly what was being suggested was there should be a wall built right where it was being filmed which is a dry riverbed.
Draw as much attention to you signiture as you like.
Yit isnt going to make your stupid posts look any smarter just by adding my name to your signiture.

You should read up a little on the Rio Grande rather than continuing to confirm my signature.


Despite it's name and length, the Rio Grande is not navigable by ocean-going ships nor do smaller passenger boats or cargo barges use it as a route. It is barely navigable at all, except by small boats in a few places

[Katman]

Then says build the wall build the wall. do you think he was suggesting to build the wall somewhere elserather in the video where he said there is no wall.

Anyone with even an ounce of intelligence should be able to figure out that he's implying the wall should be built on the banks of the US side of the river.

[husaberg]

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence should be able to figure out that he's implying the wall should be built on the banks of the US side of the river.

Anyone with a gram of intellgence would have wathed the video before theyb made themselves look like a fool for
1 not noticing he was saying there should be a wall in a riverbed
2 not noticing the border road and bbaricade runs at right angles to the riverbed.
Watch the video
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248
340553340554340555340556
ps That clicking noise everyone can hear is the sound of Katman frantically backpedaling

[Katman]

Anyone with a gram of intellgence would have wathed the video before theyb made themselves look like a fool for
1 not noticing he was saying there should be a wall in a riverbed
2 not noticing the border road and bbaricade runs at right angles to the riverbed.

ps That clicking noise everyone can hear is the sound of Katman frantically backpedaling

I'm going to quote each of your posts from now on just to ensure a permanent record of your gross stupidity.

[husaberg]

I'm going to quote each of your posts from now just to ensure a permanent record of your gross stupidity.

Will that reverse what you posted and not make yourb posts not look idiotic
1 as he clearly suggested there should be a wall through a riverbed



And I don't think anyone has ever suggested building the wall in the middle of the riverbed.https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248

Baaa

2 AS the current border barrier and road is clearly running across the bed so what you said about it running parallel to the riverbed is pretty stupid.https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248

Anyone with even an ounce of intelligence should be able to figure out that he's implying the wall should be built on the banks of the US side of the river.
Did you not consider watching the video before commenting
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248
340557340558340559340560
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248

[Katman]

Will that reverse what you posted and not make yourb posts not look idiotic
1 as he clearly suggested there should be a wall through a riverbed
2 AS the current border barrier and road is clearly running accross the bed so what you said about it running parallel to the riverbed is pretty stupid.

Keep digging.

[husaberg]

Keep digging.

How deep would the foundations of the wall need to be stand up to crossing those 100-500 watercourses the border cuts through.:lol:
340561340562340563340564


unless you are still planning on sticking to your original story
Anyone who wants can watch the video themselves
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248
Maybe next time you should watch the video and figure out some stuff before replying:lol:


I'm going to quote each of your posts from now on just to ensure we have a permanent record of your gross stupidity.

[Katman]

How deep would the foundations of the wall need to be stand up to crossing thos 100-500 watercourses the border cuts through.:lol:

Maybe next time you should watch the video and figure out some stuff before replying:lol:

You just don't know when to shut the fuck up, do you?

[husaberg]

You just don't know when to shut the fuck up, do you?
Oh big talk like that will surely convince anyone who didn't look at the video or the pictures or what you posted to think you must be right.



Will that reverse what you posted and not make your posts not look idiotic
1 as he clearly suggested there should be a wall through a riverbed
not what you suggested

And I don't think anyone has ever suggested building the wall in the middle of the riverbed.


2 AS the current border barrier and road is clearly running across the bed so what you said about it running parallel to the riverbed is pretty stupid.

Anyone with even an ounce of intelligence should be able to figure out that he's implying the wall should be built on the banks of the US side of the river.


340557340558340559340560

[Katman]

Oh big talk like that will surely convince anyone who didn't look at the video or the pictures or what you posted think you must be right.

:facepalm:

[oldrider]

Daniel Estulin – Back Trump or World Loses - Interview with Greg Hunter - :corn:

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[oldrider]

True or false? - does it even matter? - https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088981790885400576 . :corn:

[husaberg]

True or false? - does it even matter? - https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088981790885400576 . :corn:

No doubt you never noticed the FBI arrested Rodger Stone the Guy Who was One of Trumps earliest supporters and loyal lieutenant and who worked for Nixon and even has a Richard Nixon Tattoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_yPwAi4GyA

Stone was arrested by the FBI Friday morning at his home in Florida, his lawyer tells CNN. He was indicted Thursday by a federal grand jury in the District of Columbia on seven counts, including one count of obstruction of an official proceeding, five counts of false statements, and one count of witness tampering.
Stone also said he would not testify against the President.
On October 7, 2016, after WikiLeaks released its first set of then-Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta's emails, prosecutors say Stone received a text message from "an associate of the high-ranking Trump campaign official" that said "well done," signaling that the Trump campaign was looped in on Stone's quest for dirt on Democrats.
The associate and the high-ranking campaign official are not named in the complaint, though the indictment describes how Stone told a reporter that what Assange had in the unreleased emails was good for the Trump campaign. Stone responded at the time, "I'd tell [the high-ranking Trump Campaign official] but he doesn't call me back."
An email matching that wording that was published by The New York Times shows that the official Stone referred to was Steve Bannon.
After the October 7 releases, Stone boasted to "senior Trump Campaign officials" that he had correctly predicted the data dump, prosecutors say.
The indictment also alleges that Stone lied to Congress about "his communications with the Trump Campaign about Organization 1." In the indictment, Organization 1 is WikiLeaks.
Stone has claimed that Credico, a progressive New York political activist and radio host, served as his backchannel to WikiLeaks during the 2016 campaign. Credico has denied that he acted as an intermediary.
Over text message, Stone told Credico, "'Stonewall it. Plead the fifth. Anything to save the plan' ... Richard Nixon," prosecutors said. Stone warned Credico he would get "indicted for perjury" because he could contradict Stone's testimony. "And if you turned over anything to the FBI you're a fool," Stone told Credico later via text.
Multiple times, Stone told him to do a "Frank Pentangeli," a reference to a "The Godfather: Part II" character who was a former Corleone ally who later feigns innocence to Congress before killing himself.
He also called him "a rat" and a "stoolie," prosecutors say. He threatened to take away Credico's dog — a fluffy white therapy pet named Bianca who even later went with Credico into his grand jury appearance — and told him "Prepare to die [expletive]," prosecutors wrote.

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/25/politics/roger-stone-arrested/index.html

[Katman]

No doubt you never noticed the FBI arrested Rodger Stone the Guy Who was One of Trumps earliest supporters and who has a Richard Nixon Tattoo

Didn't last nights monumental embarrassment teach you anything?

[husaberg]

Didn't last nights monumental embarrassment teach you anything?

Sure did you can watch a video, read text on a video, figure out what a riverbed is, or even figure out what a line across the middle of a riverbed looks like as opposed to parallel to a river bed.
Nor it seems can you figure out why it would be silly to build a wall through the middle of a watercourse.
Plus according to you any river riverbed that is on the US mexico border has to be the Rio Grande even though there are likely 400 or more waterways that run through the border.
plus it seems no amount of pictures links to the video will ever be able to convince you that the voices insider you head are not right.:killingme
340573340574340571340572
maybe you should actually watch the video
https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1088213328055349248

Or maybe you can just be trump you can just claim everything no mater how obvious or embarrassing or on video never happened then gloat and treat it as a win hope no one notices
Maybe you thought you were the pussy he wanted to grab.

[Katman]

maybe you should actually watch the video


Maybe you should have taken Akzle's advise a long time ago.

[husaberg]

Maybe you should have taken Akzle's advise a long time ago.

yeah okay no worries

oh, wouldn't pay heed to that old gay cunt. he just feels the need to say something so he can pretend to be relevant.

He could have just as easily been talking about your other old mate

[oldrider]

Trump just slammed Schumer: Israels wall that he funded vs our no wall :shifty: https://www.investmentwatchblog.com/trump-just-slammed-schumer-israels-wall-that-he-funded-vs-our-no-wall/ - MAGA or MIGA? :msn-wink:

[oldrider]

Has Trump Fired Bolton Yet? - :wait:

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The great collusion or orchestrated sell out in Syria?

[husaberg]

Has Trump Fired Bolton Yet? - :wait:

<iframe width="630" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/c5JPn5XmJ5w" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The great collusion or orchestrated sell out in Syria?

Always great to hear what a guy who has clinically diagnosed mental disorders thinks.
Posting that guy oddly doesn't effect your reputation it almost actually enhances it.

[oldrider]

All that from the obviously most unbalanced unhinged poster on "KB" - :laugh: . :lol: . :tugger:

[husaberg]

All that from the obviously most unbalanced unhinged poster on "KB" - :laugh: . :lol: . :tugger:

Yeah if you say so
It must be bacause i am always running arround posting unsolicited nazi era propaganda
Making posts extolling the vitues of Adolf Hilter and Mein Kamph and his amazing economic policies.
Or the Posting about how i think the world is run by some shadowy conspiracy of figures who are jews and may or may not be shape shifting lizzardman aliens.
Then the posting of other conspiracy theories on daily basis none that ever turn out to be true or even vaguely believable
Yeah that will be the reason any one who posts that stuff clearly is unhinged:msn-wink:

[oldrider]

Yeah if you say so
It must be bacause i am always running arround posting unsolicited nazi era propaganda
Making posts extolling the vitues of Adolf Hilter and Mein Kamph and his amazing economic policies.
Or the Posting about how i think the world is run by some shadowy conspiracy of figures who are jews and may or may not be shape shifting lizzardman aliens.
Then the posting of other conspiracy theories on daily basis none that ever turn out to be true or even vaguely believable
Yeah that will be the reason any one who posts that stuff clearly is unhinged:msn-wink:

Thats all you have to say? - Thought even you could have done better than that! - Oh well. (husaberg must try harder! - Report card unchanged.) :rolleyes:

[husaberg]

Thats all you have to say? - Thought even you could have done better than that! - Oh well. (husaberg must try harder! - Report card unchanged.) :rolleyes:

Go on are you saying now you dont believe and post links about the world is be taken over by the Jewish Illuminati NWO that may or not be shape-shifting aliens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1MkxknEAdo

[oldrider]

Thats what you keep saying that "I" say - carry on do your worst. :yawn:

[husaberg]

Thats what you keep saying that "I" say - carry on do your worst. :yawn:


Yeah okay....

Have to agree somewhat with David Icke's take on the Trump situation in this interview.

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/j0Hf-zL5MSU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


Haven't had the time to watch it. Is Icke still claiming to be Jesus? And I'm assuming Trump is one of those lizard shape-shifters?


324436324437324438
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiyrHZCksDM


What planet does David Icke come from? - This could never happen in our world - could it? :confused: Could American/world politics actually be controlled? :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/ojvQWO6fonE


David Icke?!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Really?

You are so gullible and stupid it's pathetic.

Does he mention his idea that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood is trying to take over the world?
And that the highest level of this are called the "Red Dresses"?
Or how about that in 1991 he announced that he was a "Son of the Godhead"?

You can't make this stuff up....you idiot.


Once again Oscar jumps to conclusions because he doesn't read very well and is such a natural bigoted arrogant oaf! :facepalm:
True! - I used to wonder why he was still alive but I guess he is a useful tool to flood the conspiracy theorist market with discreditable trash!
Helps hide any real issues that crop up too.


When you need to post David Icke you are really without logic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w2dMekIJLw


The truth is out there....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIqMjSKmPo0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLBWIi3ykxk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcUOVytK2ZA

It must be true as its got a video clip.:laugh:


Why would you give him more evidence to show conspiracy theorists are colossal morons? :scratch:

"Is there an Israeli Brussels connection behind the recent Brussels attack of March 22nd 2016? Whenever an event like this occurs, we not only need to ask ourselves whether it was a false flag attack. We also need to investigate who was behind it, and specifically, whether the clues lead back to Rothschild Zionism and Israel."

Since you're probably too far gone with bigoted rage; I'll spell it out; any unbiased investigative practice would never start by asking (in the absence of any evidence towards), did this specific bloke/group/race do it?

So that David Ike you also keep posting video clip of is he the guy that declared him self to be gods son on eatrh and keeps posting stuff about how the world is being run by shape-shifting reptilians or not.

[Virago]

Yeah okay....


So that David Ike you also keep posting video clip of is he the guy that declared him self to be gods son on eatrh and keeps posting stuff about how the world is being run by shape-shifting reptilians or not.

Christ, are you STILL doing these randomly bizarre multi-quotes?

[husaberg]

Christ, are you STILL doing these randomly bizarre multi-quotes?

Chairs well duh yeah..................
i was just showing oldie that i was not the only person ever to question his posting of David Ike.
You remember David Ike, Shrewd political commentator or Total nut. Depending on how you rate the shape shifting aliens

[jasonu]

Chairs well duh yeah..................
i was just showing oldie that i was not the only person ever to question his posting of David Ike.
You remember David Ike, Shrewd political commentator or Total nut. Depending on how you rate the shape shifting aliens

mate you are not 'showing' anyone anything. Please give it a rest.

[husaberg]

mate you are not 'showing' anyone anything. Please give it a rest.

i was showing oldie not anyone else.
With all due respect though Jason, If oldie wants to post the sort of crap he does on a open forum he should expect to be questioned about it.
If he however he wanted to post the sort of crap he does and not be questioned.
He could do it on a conspiracy site or on a white supremacist site. Or he should start a blog.
Free speech is a two edged sword, he can't expect to exercise his free speech without other getting the chance to exercise theirs.
Oldie likes to hide behind i am only posting it story, thinking that gets him off the hook somehow.
But he finds it , then he posts it. Its not a co-incidence that it all its all falls into the same propaganda theme that Germans prior to WW2 or is just totally inept crap.

[husaberg]

It probably wouldn't be quite so irritating if you didn't come across as such a fucking retard in the process.

Really exactly what makes you think your opinion is so highly valued?
It can't come from the feedback received on the quality of your opinions expressed on KB. It also certainly cant be from the content of what you post.

[oldrider]

Regime change in America? - Interesting alternative? - :scratch:

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[Banditbandit]

Trump''s tariffs Wipe out Harley Profits

http://fortune.com/2019/01/29/harley-davidson-profit-wiped-trump-tariffs/

[husaberg]

Trump''s tariffs Wipe out Harley Profits

http://fortune.com/2019/01/29/harley-davidson-profit-wiped-trump-tariffs/

To be far Harleys about as American now as moms apple pie assuming your mum was from New Delhi
Still more american than trumps make america great again ties and hats were.
https://snopes.com/uploads/2015/10/donald-trump-hat.pnghttps://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/g/t/x/2/d/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.710x400. 1gtx11.png/1485242343999.jpg

[oldrider]

:scratch: https://twitter.com/EsotericExposal/status/1091169336356593664?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AHenryMakow% 7Ctwcon%5Etimelinechrome&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F - "Give me control of the finances of the world, I care not who makes the laws!" - Who said that? - He was right? :whistle:

[oldrider]

China behaving like the United States? :rolleyes: Where will it all end up? :wait:

<iframe width="905" height="509" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0aShrrCbtqs" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

The only way to win World War lll is to prevent it. - Dwight Eisenhower .................. will they listen to old Dwight's words of wisdom? :shifty:


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[oldrider]

America - Land of milk and funny? - :rolleyes: (Read that as phoney)

<iframe width="280" height="158" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Idoq6jEjxUY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

StormCloudsGathering
Premiered on 2 Feb 2019
The U.S. and its allies have decided to throw their weight behind yet another coup attempt in Venezuela. As usual, they claim that their objectives are democracy and freedom. Nothing could be farther from the truth.


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[oldrider]

Is "Ilhan Omar" currently holding the floor in US politics? - Why? - :corn:

<iframe width="280" height="210" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AuwzXhZ1YUg" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[oldrider]

“There’s absolutely no evidence to support the statement that [America is] the greatest country in the world. - :no: - https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/im_not_breaking_up_with_america_this_valentines_da y_and_neither_should_you - :facepalm:

Next step - abortion? - (read that as civil war/revolution/total chaos, take your pick. - R.I.P. America!) :wait:

[oldrider]

Mexican illegal immigrants getting in via Israel? - :scratch: https://www.timesofisrael.com/new-us-spending-bill-includes-200m-increase-in-defense-aid-to-israel/ - Stop that right now? :nya: - :confused: - Give "more money to Israel"???

[Viking01]

https://off-guardian.org/2019/03/11/russiagate-as-organised-distraction/

[oldrider]

Today in the White House:- https://twitter.com/i/status/1105174585866096640

[oldrider]

Tucker Carlson living dangerously? - or just part of the orchestrated deception? - :wait: (Time will reveal all eventually)


<iframe width="905" height="509" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rJwDpbV7_6M" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Viking01]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/111297163/boeing-pilots-fume-at-being-left-in-the-dark-over-changes-after-lion-air-crash

There was some reporting on MSNBC on this fiasco a few days back. Seems US pilots had been
logging the autopilot 'nose down fault' on US flights for several months and even prior to the Lion
Air incident.

The fault appears to be related to a design decision to have the software respond to the inputs
from a single flight instrument. Clearly somebody in Boeing's engineering / accounting department
was having a bad day when approving that design.

Apparently, Boeing was/has developing a patch, but roll-out got delayed because of the 5 week
US government shutdown (as discussions couldn't be completed with the FAA).

Further, it transpires that Boeing's CEO was on the phone to Trump after the Ethiopian crash, which
partly explains the US delay in grounding their fleet of Max8s. It was observed that the US Secretary
of Transport has the power to ground aircraft whenever. Her reluctance to act/lead on this occasion
has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she (Elaine Chao) is the wife of GOP Senate leader
Mitch McConnell.

[Viking01]

https://off-guardian.org/2019/03/29/2020-ready-or-not/

Now that the Russiagate saga is almost dead and buried (pity some of the US
politicians couldn't have accompanied it), it must almost be time to get yourself
in fighting form for the fun of the 2020 US elections.

Maybe even treat ourselves to a new thread ?

[pritch]

Now that the Russiagate saga is almost dead and buried

Hardly. When the Starr report on Clinton was complete it was made available in 48 hours. Barr wants six weeks plus. That isn't normal.

Despite the fact that the Mueller report is a mystery to all but Mueller, Barr, and their respective staff, the Republicans on the Senate Intelligence Committee wrote a letter demanding Adam Schiff, the new chairman, resign. They were miffed because he continued to accuse Trump of collusion even though in their minds Trump had been cleared by the Mueller report - which they hadn't read.

There are many versions of this clip about but all have been edited to suit the purpose of the TV channel using it. This is from
c-span which is similar to Parliamentary TV although there is added commentary at the end, but I haven't watched that. It's a pity because Schiff went on to detail Trump's attempts to build a Trump tower in Moscow in exchange for relaxing sanctions on Russia, and then lying about it.

I suspect the Republicans wish they hadn't written their letter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSw6ZkMcJ2M&frags=pl%2Cwn

If that link doesn't work try this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cmew5Z82As&frags=pl%2Cwn

Unless, of course, you have rthe attention span of a gold fish

[Viking01]

It must be CIA recruiting time again. Time to return to the
old Texas stomping ground and check out the new talent.
And who better to do a sales job than the previous Director
of the CIA, Mike Pompeo.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/51476.htm

You can watch the full 32 minutes video, or maybe just
watch the last 4 minutes (starting around the 29 minute
mark).

Can't think why he reminds me of Tony Soprano.

[oldrider]

Something to watch from our (once upon a time) safe grandstand? - :wait: Source: https://www.transcend.org/tms/2019/04/white-house-insider-war-with-iran-planned-by-trump-to-occur-in-the-fall-of-2019/

<iframe width="566" height="344" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/v8OKDdEYMGk" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Banditbandit]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/gop-staffer-advocates-trumps-impeachment/587785/

[Banditbandit]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/20/mueller-report-impeachment-obstruction-bill-clinton-republicans

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/20/mueller-report-impeachment-obstruction-bill-clinton-republicans

Both of those are a bit piss-weak.

One is by someone who clearly didn't like Trump from the outset and now wants to get some hero points, the other is just straw-clutching - the Comparison between coercing someone to submit a faked affidavit (Clinton) and in their words 'Asking them not to co-operate' (as opposed to falsifying a legal document) is stretched.

All that does is reek of desperation and sore-losers - like someone who thinks if they point the finger hard enough, it will make themselves look good.

[oldrider]

Bombing Iran "halfway back to the stone age"? :scratch: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/51588.htm - Reasonable and considerate? - :mellow:

[Quote]Not full-scale war, but an excuse for the US and Israel to bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities, key military sites and communications infrastructure as was done with Iraq. It won’t be back all the way to the Stone Age, but half way, so that Iran’s development is set back by a decade.
Israel will then use its control over the US Congress to keep Iran under a very tight embargo. The Pentagon’s original plan to punish Iran called for some 2,300 air strikes on Day 1 alone.

Washington’s hope, as usual, is that growing misery and hardship in Iran will provoke a revolt to oust the Islamic government, allowing the US to install the exiled Iranian royalists it has waiting in Southern California. This was the pattern in Cuba, Nicaragua, Iraq, Syria, Libya and now Venezuela. It’s not diplomacy, just brute force. [Unquote] :rolleyes: ----- :wait:

[pritch]

Bolton has been keen to bomb Iran and North Korea for over twenty years. It doesn't matter what the problem is Bolton's solution involves bombs.

Putin was apparently becoming concerned and it's believed he told Trump to back off. Of course the truth is difficult to ascertain because Trump's conversations with Putin are private. The fact that it's illegal for him to have private conversations with Putin is another matter.

"Wag The Dog"? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120885/videoplayer/vi920715545?ref_=nv_sr_1_v_1

[husaberg]

Bolton has been keen to bomb Iran and North Korea for over twenty years. It doesn't matter what the problem is Bolton's solution involves bombs.

Putin was apparently becoming concerned and it's believed he told Trump to back off. Of course the truth is difficult to ascertain because Trump's conversations with Putin are private. The fact that it's illegal for him to have private conversations with Putinis another matter.

"Wag The Dog"? https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120885/videoplayer/vi920715545?ref_=nv_sr_1_v_1

But neither are cool enough to take their body guards for a 10KM run every day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqu0doiiP7k

[pritch]

But neither are cool enough to take their body guards for a 10KM run every day


Amateurs. Erdogan's body guards started beating the crap out of people protesting his visit to the USA. In the USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8YjxbzGlzw&frags=pl%2Cwn

[oldrider]

Foreign agents attacking American citizens on American soil and nothing being done about it? - MAGA? :facepalm:

[oldrider]

Israeli National Anthem? (should be) - "Onward Christian Soldiers". :rolleyes:

Do it for us but keep our name out of it? - Yeah right!:- https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-tell-his-defense-chiefs-to-keep-israel-out-of-iran-us-tensions/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter - Christians fighting Muslims for Israeli benefit? - What's new here? :scratch:

[husaberg]

Israeli National Anthem? (should be) - "Onward Christian Soldiers". :rolleyes:

Do it for us but keep our name out of it? - Yeah right!:- https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-tell-his-defense-chiefs-to-keep-israel-out-of-iran-us-tensions/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter - Christians fighting Muslims for Israeli benefit? - What's new here? :scratch:


Does it fill you with joy to be posting this stuff, the same sort of hate propaganda stuff that got 50 innocent people killed in your own country not long ago?
Exactly Whats your preferred outcome, is it someone goes into a synagogue with a AR15 and kills 50 Jews, or blows up a catholic church with 50 people inside it?

[oldrider]

You mean like this stuff? :- https://twitter.com/morphonios/status/1128774730239152128/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Eembeddedtimeline% 7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AHenryMakow&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F

[husaberg]

You mean like this stuff?

So should i take that as a yes, it does indeed fill you with joy to post hate material propaganda on the Net?
Do you not see a cause and effect of you spreading this crap?
or is it actual the aim of you doing it?
Do you not see the parallels with what you post and the 50 people killed due to people swallowing the sort of bile you spread on this site?
or is it what you hope will happen if you spread enough of it?
Do you sincerely think what you post is any different from what joseph goebbels spread?
or do you hope to achieve the same outcome?
Exactly whats the plan after you rid the world of the Jews, Who is next after them?

[Katman]

Who is next after them?

Hopefully you.