The American (USA) 2016 presidential elections thread? [Archive] - Page 32

sugilite

4th January 2020, 15:15

Like the Bidens and Clintons taking money from pretty much EVERYWHERE on the planet?

NZ alone gave Clinton 25million of our taxpayer dollars....

What for?

We'll never know because TDS fools like you lot are more worried about Orange man and some made up stories.

Austin, your ignorance, while once adorbs and laughable, is now getting really cringe worthy - like just so so sad now.

How can your TDS brain not acknowledge there is a very real reason Trump is soooo desperate to hide his tax records after publicly saying several times he will release them. :weird:
Let me give you a hint in as few a syllable words as possible - he has lots of dirt in them.

And by the way - if it comes to be - no amount of the "what abouts" are going to save him.

austingtir

4th January 2020, 15:18

https://mma-user-upload.mixedmartialarts.com/2020-01/E6298B8B-23AC-48B4-A36E-E26010084EE7-1735-0000017D570C24C6.jpeg

pritch

4th January 2020, 16:53

Austin, your ignorance, while once adorbs and laughable, is now getting really cringe worthy - like just so so sad now.

I've never thought him ignorant, others here yes, but not him.

There used to be special places for special people like him, but Jenny Shipley gave us "care in the community". So this community gets Austingtir.

austingtir

4th January 2020, 17:00

I've never thought him ignorant, others here yes, but not him.

There used to be special places for special people like him, but Jenny Shipley gave us "care in the community". So this community gets Austingtir.

^^Its time to go to bed Rose...

https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/status/1212976832544460801

I guess doing drugs and getting diddled by Harvey Weinstein does mess you up some.....

Bonez

4th January 2020, 17:13

AparentATrump/Pence signs are electrified https://twitter.com/i/status/1212740569014951936

oldrider

4th January 2020, 17:27

AparentATrump/Pence signs are electrified https://twitter.com/i/status/1212740569014951936

:lol: Really enjoyed that! :killingme

TheDemonLord

4th January 2020, 17:45

Agreed, not much of an airforce really. But if it came to a boots on the ground conflict, I still would not like to be an American soldier there for what exactly? Certainly nothing worth dying for.

Agreed - one of my main comments about Trump has been the lack of Silly Wars started - so I'd hate for him to ruin it.

You mentioned a while back that Greta Thunbergs parents encouraged her into activism - interesting to read a article with actual quotes from her parents on said subject.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/118528173/greta-thunbergs-parents-were-against-her-climate-activism
Not saying she is not fair game for her activism activities, just more so it does not appear based on her parents quotes that they were behind it.
So many articles from so called journalists from all sides just printing shit that they feel will get a reaction - truth be dammed.

Yeah, I don't buy it. Not a single bit.

For starters, there is too much complicity from them - from her Mother giving up her Career, to Greta having access to 'contacts' that no ordinary girl had, to her parents sharing the same ideological positions.

Then there is the obvious point:

"Mum and Dad, I'm going to sail a millionaire Yacht to protest Climate change!"
"No. You are not. You are going to school"
"You can't tell me what to do!"
"Since we are your parents, A - We can and B - We can and C - When you are 18 you can do whatever you want, but whilst you live under this roof, paid for by our work, you live by our rules"
"But Muuuuuuuuuuum"
"But no Buts - Get thee Hence!"

Not to mention it kinda spoils the narrative that they have crafted around her if she is merely a puppet for her parents agenda vs 'an inspired Young Woman, looking to make her mark and *Vomit noises*'

So, no, I don't buy it that they were against it, since if they were, they could (and some might say should) have stopped it.

austingtir

4th January 2020, 17:46

An gas company employee in Ukraine released this photo....

https://scontent.fakl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/81468116_3104622152890748_7452433991375781888_o.jp g?_nc_cat=109&_nc_eui2=AeEWf7cBBkx43Sm1vbO3lQpjhTKaqFtMoTdEibjNp 3iUny095dxVQMuWb0lnNH90Vm0HXKtdtgkFU-wP9XmeKeIxI0bjjHqUrnffspH_We-t5w&_nc_ohc=K45ma_wbdEIAQklj0oy3pPBhbimeWiJGw6C5x83Exm Fsu8alHLJHQ_IAA&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl8-1.fna&oh=a3e99ba85a991977c76d310e3eb2cce1&oe=5EA20A7C

husaberg

4th January 2020, 18:45

https://media.vanityfair.com/photos/58653e382a49cb2d624ebf27/master/pass/Trump-don-king.jpghttps://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/58b0d0332900002200bead1c.jpeghttps://i.redd.it/b207fv10ohc31.jpghttps://swalwell.house.gov/sites/swalwell.house.gov/files/wysiwyg_uploaded/Trump-His-Teams-Ties-to-Russia-4-4.png

Bonez

4th January 2020, 20:35

Now what are the Dems impeachment articles say he was guilty of again?

onearmedbandit

4th January 2020, 21:45

^^Its time to go to bed Rose...

https://twitter.com/rosemcgowan/status/1212976832544460801

I guess doing drugs and getting diddled by Harvey Weinstein does mess you up some.....

Fucking 'ell, that is a disaster. She apologised to a country that publicly hangs homosexuals, that imprisons women for removing their hijab in public? She claims she is being held hostage by a terrorist? In a mansion? In a safe community? With money and a passport that allows her to travel anywhere in the world? What a fucking nutjob.

husaberg

4th January 2020, 21:47

Fucking 'ell, that is a disaster. She apologised to a country that publicly hangs homosexuals, that imprisons women for removing their hijab in public? She claims she is being held hostage by a terrorist? In a mansion? In a safe community? With money and a passport that allows her to travel anywhere in the world? What a fucking nutjob.

She was awesome in titaniC
But seriously its not the people of Irans faiult their leaders and a small percentages of fundamentalists are idiots, its not as if they voted for them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XetCvCO3Bgo

austingtir

4th January 2020, 22:12

I never get tired of all the winning:

Have you ever seen the likes of this before???

https://youtu.be/CijAZGvcMqk

Trump cucked these Iranians so hard im almost embarrassed for them.

oldrider

4th January 2020, 22:24

War is ridiculous - All wars are bankers wars! - Not the people who actually fight them! - Just say fucking NO!- :oi-grr:

Voltaire

5th January 2020, 06:41

Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria,28 June 1914 in Sarajevo

Nobody notices minor assassinations.....

austingtir

5th January 2020, 08:29

https://twitter.com/SiffatZahra/status/1213412757107888128?s=19

This rare red flag represents blood vengeance and war.

The even rarer brown flag will be raised soon enough. It represents pants-shitting by the leaders of Iran when they realize they made a huge mistake.

oldrider

5th January 2020, 10:03

Iranian General out-gunned by the fastest gun in America! -American calls - "self defence"? - Like a typical "B" grade Western movie? - :facepalm:

MaxPenguin

5th January 2020, 10:12

War is ridiculous - All wars are bankers wars! - Not the people who actually fight them! - Just say fucking NO!- :oi-grr:

Poor people fighting and Dieing to keep rich people rich.
And you ever notice that whenever an ex military person appears on u.s tv nowadays everyone fawns over them and thanks them for protecting our lifestyle. Makes me want to chunder:sick: Dicks should actually think before opening their mouths.:facepalm:

austingtir

5th January 2020, 11:09

Given the source im not going to bet any money on this:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-said-seeing-signs-iran-prepping-ballistic-missiles-as-tehran-vows-revenge/

But in all honesty I seriously hope these mullahs are this stupid.

If they do they are clearly due for a dose of some freedom.

I might have to stock up on popcorn.

oldrider

5th January 2020, 11:11

Anti-war speech by a soldier. Must(?) watch. https://twitter.com/w0rldleadir/status/1213349342351777792?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AHenryMakow&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F - :wait: Left/right politics won't supply the answer he wants - :no:

Got to get rid of double sided coin voting "Heads they win Tails we lose" that's why nothing ever changes. - :msn-wink:

austingtir

5th January 2020, 13:14

Apparently from a minor missile attack today....

https://phanes.feralhosting.com/zeus/post/BTZ8AQhv95JpDDa

austingtir

5th January 2020, 13:25

https://i.redd.it/n10jh6wt6r841.jpg

oldrider

5th January 2020, 13:30

American preparation for Israel since 1948 - https://twitter.com/evsnova74/status/1213624811294986240/photo/1 - Except that they are all supposed to end up looking like Gaza. :bash:

Is it working for them yet? - :scratch:

For instance: - Try and identify who the aggressors are in these two pictures?:- https://twitter.com/LieBusterSleuth/status/1213003299080876032?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AHenryMakow&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F - :rolleyes:

austingtir

5th January 2020, 19:29

https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/c446f6ca-66cf-4725-8995-36bc85961502-jpeg.597960/

austingtir

5th January 2020, 19:45

Charlie Kirk
@charliekirk11
· 1h
Did you know:

Iran’s Foreign Minister threatened to expose Western diplomats who took bribes to create the Iran Nuclear Deal

RT if this is the one threat they should follow through on!

https://twitter.com/charliekirk11/status/1213683493395263493?s=20

And Iran claims they have a sleeper cell in the USA is the first reply....
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENfe7OsXYAQsZKQ.jpg

oldrider

5th January 2020, 20:58

Wes Clark - Americas policy "Coup": (best listen to the whole clip for who's who this time?) - :msn-wink:

<iframe width="507" height="380" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/TY2DKzastu8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

austingtir

6th January 2020, 10:21

When are libs going to learn they cant stop the Trump train?!

Donald J Trump:

"These Media Posts will serve as notification to the United States Congress that should Iran strike any U.S. person or target, the United States will quickly & fully strike back, & perhaps in a disproportionate manner. Such legal notice is not required, but is given nevertheless!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1213919480574812160

I find it fucking hilarious that its got to the point that Trump is giving notice to congress via twitter. Those dems brought this on themselves.

They think Trump is going to notify them when actual people in congress (and others) are proven to be actively working FOR the Iranians? The dems in congress had a pakistani spy ring running their IT less than a few years ago.

nerrrd

6th January 2020, 10:55

Guess the coup's on the other foot now.

oldrider

6th January 2020, 10:57

Americans caught between a (((Zionist))) rock and a (((Communist))) hard place. Who is representing their interests? :scratch: https://twitter.com/morphonios/status/1213872311490793472?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AHenryMakow&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F :rolleyes:

TheDemonLord

6th January 2020, 11:22

There was an interesting take from Maajid Nawaz on his Twitter feed about it.

The TL;DR version is:

Drone strikes are bad.
The Iranian General was a Cunt.
Celebrities and people who know nothing about the Middle East should STFU.
A lot of people in the Middle East are probably very happy that there is one less person in charge of various murderous groups.

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1213247919928872960

It's a very interesting read.

I'm not sure on where I stand on this.

On the one hand, Iran it could be said has been poking the bear, the bear has now had enough and clawed them.
I'm also not a particular fan of the Revolutionary Guard.
There's been commentary from a couple of Pundits I enjoy who outline the situation as Iran has been re-trying to be the regional power (with some even referencing the Persian Empire) and part of that has been to attack US/UK assets in a show of force and strength. They further suggest that Trump has effectively called their bluff: 'Oh, you think you can do small scale interventions and get away scott-free? Need we remind you that we can get to you at our leisure and conveiniance?" Now Iran has a choose - either they back down and eat some humble pie, or they up-the-ante and try and declare War on the US.

That said, another War in the Middle East is probably not what is needed. Or most specifically another war like the one that would occur. Either the US would have to go in and do a full Empire building exercise or it will end up like Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think there is the Political or the Moral will to do that, and so such a conflict would end in a Military victory, but no route to go from a Military victory to a Political Victory.

Katman

6th January 2020, 11:33

Either the US would have to go in and do a full Empire building exercise or it will end up like Iraq and Afghanistan.

I don't think America has any intention of doing any 'empire building exercise'.

I suspect America's only intention is to destroy another country which stands in the way of Israel's empire building aspirations.

pritch

6th January 2020, 11:40

TheDemonLord

6th January 2020, 11:56

I don't think America has any intention of doing any 'empire building exercise'.

I suspect America's only intention is to destroy another country which stands in the way of Israel's empire building aspirations.

I agree with the first part, not the second.

America has never built an Empire, and if you look at WW2 (which is arguably the most pivotal moment in US Military History) both the Countries they defeated (Germany and Japan) have prospered and I would suspect that the reason for this is the underlying social framework was already there to remake the countries, whereas in the Middle East, there isn't the same social Framework.

But I should point out - this is merely conjecture.

I'm still not sure on the whole Iran General Killing thing.

TheDemonLord

6th January 2020, 11:59

Is Trump a war criminal? He pretty much already is. He's repeatedly suggested actions that, if completed, would seal it.

The killing of Soleimani is legally problematical. He was not like Al Baghdadi or Bin Laden, both of whom were basically stateless. Soleimani was a high ranking official of a country with whom the US was not at war.

Imagine the US screams of outrage if a Middle Eastern government with which the US was not at war killed VP Mike Pence. That's directly comparable.

If Trump implements his 58 point plan of attack on Iran he absolutely would be a war criminal. Several times over. It's no coincidence that the US has not signed the UN convention that would bring them under the International Court in The Hague. The US commits war crimes and they know it.

Come off the Grass.

If you want to play that card then so is Obama. Doesn't matter if Bin Laden was stateless, they still had to invade another country to get him.

Hell, I'd probably go so far as to say that almost all recent presidents have done things that were dubious enough that could be considered 'war crimes' if one was applying a particular set of interpretations.

oldrider

6th January 2020, 12:01

Does anybody notice how almost all Israel's neighbours now look all beaten up like Gaza? - MAGA and MIGA Republican or Democrat the results are always the same? - Screwed! :msn-wink:

Katman

6th January 2020, 12:01

I agree with the first part, not the second.

America has never built an Empire

I said Israel's empire building aspirations - not America's.

TheDemonLord

6th January 2020, 12:03

I said Israel's empire building aspirations - not America's.

I know, but as I said - I don't buy that.

austingtir

6th January 2020, 12:08

The most blatant american foreign policy cock up's were clearly the Bush/Blair episode and then Obama, McCain and co funding terrorists (isis) all over the middle east and overthrowing Giddafi.

The Obama and co episode imo having by far the worst world wide consequences of anything ever done by the west all western countries are going to pay for those decisions till long past all of us are dead.

IMO in time there will be a legitimate case to string Obama and Hillary clinton up.

Most people cant see this because of the blatant MSM propaganda and cover ups.

Katman

6th January 2020, 12:19

I know, but as I said - I don't buy that.

So I take it you completely dismiss the idea of there being a Greater Israel Project.

TheDemonLord

6th January 2020, 12:23

So I take it you completely dismiss the idea of there being a Greater Israel Project.

We've been down this road. Many Times.

pritch

6th January 2020, 12:43

In Britain there are people, the very definition of 'anoraks', 'plane watchers. These people brave all weathers and record all arrivals and departures at major airports.

When the British Government replied to journalists' questions saying that no CIA aircraft involved in rendition flights had ever used British airports, there was an immediate response from the plane watchers: times, dates, make and model of aircraft, and registration details.
The Government was lying.

And that was when the politicians learned about 'plane watchers.

Technology has moved on. Similar people are now watching the recorded flight paths of international jets. A couple of interest recently. Last weekend while Trump was in Florida, the head of Russia's biggest bank, a close friend of Putin, arrived in Florida by private jet in the middle of the night. What for? Nobody knows.

Now a team of Saudi Govt Financiers has flown into New York on another private jet. It only stayed a couple of hours.

None of this means anything as yet, but it's interesting that people are watching.

Oh, and Iran has put an 80 million dollar price on Trump's head.

austingtir

6th January 2020, 12:54

pritch

6th January 2020, 12:57

Results of a poll in Germany.

TheDemonLord

6th January 2020, 13:23

Results of a poll in Germany.

Given their recent track records of picking threats to world peace, I'd say that was high praise for the Don.

Katman

6th January 2020, 15:39

We've been down this road. Many Times.

Ah well, should the day ever come when you start to consider the possibility, you'll find that the events in the Middle East start to make a bit more sense.

pritch

6th January 2020, 15:44

This is recent Trump. Anyone who thinks this is sane is in need of professional help themselves.

austingtir

6th January 2020, 15:47

Wow RIP to Ricky Gervais ever getting another gig in holyweird....

I thought it was just the epstein joke but sounds like he laid into them at the end and was not joking.

https://twitter.com/DailyCaller

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktkqn-CyMI8

https://youtu.be/KbqBF8FExU4

OAN coming through with the full monologue: https://twitter.com/alexsalvinews/status/1214003629377478656?s=20

Final comment: "Donate to Australia, go get drunk, go take your drugs, and fuck off."

Dude should be given a presidential medal for this shit. Oh wait he said it was all a "joke" at the start of it..... RIGHT Ricky... Right.

sugilite

6th January 2020, 17:03

God damn Ruskies still hiding under you bed I see! You should start charging them rent for that!!
What about those big bad dems you constantly obsess about :laugh:

oldrider

6th January 2020, 17:12

Da de dah like magic? - https://mondoweiss.net/2020/01/israel-played-a-role-in-us-decision-to-assassinate-iranian-general/ - The tail wagging the dog again? - :wait:

austingtir

6th January 2020, 17:18

What about those big bad dems you constantly are right about :laugh:

Reality (me) > Dreams (you)

sugilite

6th January 2020, 17:35

Reality (me) > Dreams (you)

https://andys-kawasaki-zxr-zx7r-tribute-site.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/austingr.jpg

I would say check in to a mental institution anytime, but your nats closed most of them down :laugh:

MaxPenguin

6th January 2020, 18:21

Reality (me) > Dreams (you)

You are kidding right?

austingtir

6th January 2020, 21:27

What about those big bad dems you constantlyobsess about

You are kidding right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtiJqng9jy8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DXDU48RHLU

husaberg

6th January 2020, 21:40

of course the the US would not invade a country that invaded a US allies its not as if they attacked Iraq after they invaded Saudi or Kuwaitniow is it. both times under republicans too.:killingme

austingtir

6th January 2020, 21:44

of course the the US would not invade a country that invaded a US allies its not as if they attacked Iraq after they invaded Saudi or Kuwaitniow is it. both times under republicans too.:killingme

Well as proven by the last three years the democrats are to stupid to get the Kuwaiti's to slant drill for oil into Iraq's territory and then pretend they didnt do it after Sadam was furious and invaded.

It was a good ruse and so was pretending not to notice an Iranian general flying commercial for years and years until you drop the hammer on him for being a cheeky kent.

The difference is I dont think the Iranians are suicidal.

But we will see.

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 08:04

Ah well, should the day ever come when you start to consider the possibility, you'll find that the events in the Middle East start to make a bit more sense.

Sure...

When you consider the possibility that Tribal, Religious Violence and general shitty behaviour in the Middle East Long predates the existence or even thought of Israel.

When you consider that, you'll find that the events in the Middle East make even more sense.

austingtir

7th January 2020, 08:11

WASHINGTON, D.C.—At a press conference held on Capitol Hill Friday, mourning Democrat leaders called for flags to be flown half-mast to honor the death of Qasem Soleimani.

Flags were spotted flying at half-mast around the country, notably at The Washington Post, The New York Times, and in front of several celebrities' homes. The celebrities went out and bought an American flag for the first time just to fly it at half-mast for this important time of grief.

"The grieving process is painful but necessary," said Rep. Ilhan Omar. "As a nation, we need to stop and grieve this great, austere, revered religious scholar. He was one of the good ones."

In a rare moment of unity with The Squad, Pelosi gave each of the girls a hug, telling them to just "let it all out" in their time of sadness.

Ocasio-Cortez didn't seem to know what was happening but adjusted her glasses to look smart.

A teary-eyed Barack Obama was also seen solemnly lowering the flag in front of his seaside mansion. "To think, this all could have been prevented with a few pallets of cash." He sighed and stared off into the distance, a look of pain and regret on his face. "If only Trump had targeted a U.S. citizen with a drone strike instead."

Later, Democrats clarified they meant we should fly the Iranian flag at half-mast, not the "offensive and problematic" American flag.

America's Paper of Record: https://babylonbee.com/news/democrats-call-for-flags-to-be-flown-half-mast-to-grieve-death-of-soleimani

More gold from them: (im beginning to wonder if Bob Jones is on their payroll)
https://babylonbee.com/news/cnn-launch-real-news-spinoff-site

:msn-wink:

Katman

7th January 2020, 08:16

Sure...

When you consider the possibility that Tribal, Religious Violence and general shitty behaviour in the Middle East Long predates the existence or even thought of Israel.

Was America involved back then?

austingtir

7th January 2020, 08:28

Iran done goofed.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ENnodtTUUAEjDuG.jpg:large

Hill Air Force Base Executes The Mother Of All Elephant Walks With 52 F-35s
The 388th and 419th Fighter Wings that call Hill Air Force Base in Utah home have just executed a massive readiness drill that included an 'elephant walk' of a whopping 52 F-35As. The exercise coincides with the wings reaching full strength following the transition to the F-35A, a process that began years ago.

The elephant walk and the massive number of flights that usually go along with it are all about sortie generation and displaying a level of readiness that could be leveraged during a full-blown crisis. Both wings held a similar exercise in November of 2018 with 35 aircraft, which was highly impressive, but 52 is a whole other story. Just the amount of hardware on the runway in terms of billions of dollars is staggering.

That same runway in the image is also quite fresh as a major rehabilitation of it wrapped up this summer. This kept many of Hill's resident aircraft away, including being sent on combat deployments, as flying needed to continue during the construction period.

We know that large waves of launches and recoveries are also part of the drill as the base gave local residents a heads-up in advance of the increased level of activity in the hours to come.

This elephant walk of 5th generation fighters is also a reminder that Hill AFB is truly on the leading edge of combat aviation and considering the construction projects underway at the base alone, it will continue to be for the foreseeable future.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31743/hill-air-force-base-executes-the-mother-of-all-elephant-walks-with-52-f-35s

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 08:28

Was America involved back then?

No.

And that's the point.

In fact, one could go so far as to say that since about the 1300s it's been a bit shit.

sugilite

7th January 2020, 08:29

Katman

7th January 2020, 08:31

No.

And that's the point.

In fact, one could go so far as to say that since about the 1300s it's been a bit shit.

So why is America so heavily involved in Middle East matters?

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 08:31

Picture

Somewhere, Highway to the Danger Zone is playing....

but in seriousness - that's more air-power than the entire country of Iran....

austingtir

7th January 2020, 08:32

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 08:35

So why is America so heavily involved in Middle East matters?

Because they can't sit in the sandpit and play nicely?

But that is avoiding the question: If it is *all* America/Israels fault, how come the exact same issues existed before either of those countries were a thing?

Katman

7th January 2020, 08:36

But that is avoiding the question: If it is *all* America/Israels fault, how come the exact same issues existed before either of those countries were a thing?

Those "exact same issues" have never been on the scale that we're seeing these days.

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 08:39

Those "exact same issues" have never been on the scale that we're seeing these days.

It's almost like populations have increased, communication paths are now real-time, access to quick and reliable travel is now possible and they have access to cold war era Russian Weaponary.

Katman

7th January 2020, 08:41

It's almost like populations have increased, communication paths are now real-time, access to quick and reliable travel is now possible and they have access to cold war era Russian Weaponary.

And don't forget Israel expanding into territories that they have no right to.

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 08:45

And don't forget Israel expanding into territories that they have no right to.

If I'm being generous, I could accept that certainly doesn't help.

However, it does not account for the pre-existing Tribal and Religious violence that predates the creation of Israel, predates the founding of America

pritch

7th January 2020, 08:48

hmmm, so either these "dems" woke up and thought, what is the best way I could end my political career today, or a bunch of far left wags seeing if they could trigger and fool the far rights into re-posting, or just far rights succeeding in getting the dumbest fucks in their ranks to believe this shit - looking at you Austin :laugh:

That was 'fake news'. Nobody with an IQ even close to room temperature would believe that, much less repeat it.

Somebody when emphasising just how stupid Trump is said, "You don't even know anybody as stupid as Trump."
He was wrong, we do.

Katman

7th January 2020, 09:02

However, it does not account for the pre-existing Tribal and Religious violence that predates the creation of Israel, predates the founding of America

As I said though - on nothing like the scale that we're seeing today.

And might I further add - you really should give some serious thought as to why America is so heavily involved in the Middle East conflict.

Because your (presumably) tongue-in-cheek sandpit comment really isn't the correct answer.

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 09:42

And like I said - on nothing like the scale that we're seeing today.

Which can be explained mostly by changes in population size and technology.

Israel need not apply.

I'd agree that the mere existence of Israel inflamed pre-existing issues and tensions.

however, the key word in that sentence is pre-existing.

If Israel was to disapear tomorrow and the US pull out all of their forces - do you think the Middle East would collectively hold hands and sing Kumbaya?

Of course not. There would be a tidal wave of Genocidal killings/retributions/vendettas/honor violence/Religious wars that would make the singular drone strike look like a holiday camp.

Katman

7th January 2020, 09:45

I'd agree that the mere existence of Israel inflamed pre-existing issues and tensions.

however, the key word in that sentence is pre-existing.

Israel is intent on expanding it's empire and it has America there to act as it's armed muscle.

It really is as simple as that.

Katman

7th January 2020, 09:50

Zionists believe that their God granted them all the land 'from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates' - and what we're seeing now is their efforts to achieve that.

oldrider

7th January 2020, 09:54

Breaking: Full Netanyahu statement to security cabinet meeting. "The assassination of Soleimani isn't an Israeli event but an American event. We were not involved and should not be dragged into it."

:rolleyes: - https://twitter.com/Know_More_News/status/1214274345607909379?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3AHenryMakow&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.henrymakow.com%2F - Interesting? - who needs enemies with friends like this? :msn-wink:

austingtir

7th January 2020, 10:04

That was 'fake news'. Nobody with an IQ even close to room temperature would believe that, much less repeat it.

Somebody when emphasising just how stupid Trump is said, "You don't even know anybody as stupid as Trump."
He was wrong, we do.

God you two are dense its a parody website FFS. No wonder you fall for all that real propaganda.

The CNN link should of given it away if the first one didnt.

https://babylonbee.com/news/mandalorian-arrives-to-protect-baby-trump-from-iranian-bounty-hunters

https://babylonbee.com/news

LMFAO

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 10:10

Israel is intent on expanding it's empire and it has America there to act as it's armed muscle.

It really is as simple as that.

Because the Middle East has always been 'Simple'....

Even if everything you said about Israel was true, it still does not change the underlying reality that the various Middle Eastern countries have deep problems which stem from Tribal, Ethnic, Religious and Cultural differences.

And they are quite happy to murder each other en masse (and it particularly cruel and inventive ways in many instances) over these. And that they will do this with or without Israeli/US interference.

So the whole 'but Muh Israel' is really a moot point.

Katman

7th January 2020, 10:54

Because the Middle East has always been 'Simple'....

Even if everything you said about Israel was true, it still does not change the underlying reality that the various Middle Eastern countries have deep problems which stem from Tribal, Ethnic, Religious and Cultural differences.

And they are quite happy to murder each other en masse (and it particularly cruel and inventive ways in many instances) over these. And that they will do this with or without Israeli/US interference.

So the whole 'but Muh Israel' is really a moot point.

And none of that addresses the question of why America is so heavily involved (both overtly and clandestinely) in the whole Middle East conflict.

jasonu

7th January 2020, 11:12

austingtir

7th January 2020, 11:25

And none of that addresses the question of why America is so heavily involved (both overtly and clandestinely) in the whole Middle East conflict.

Well obviously its oil and resources so the rich families around the world can go in there and extract and sell all that shit.

The problem I have with this argument of Israel not existing is where do you think these muslims are going to focus all of the anger once Israel is gone?
What if the entire muslim world was to amalgamate and concentrate their power under one banner? (its almost impossible for them to do this with Israel being where it is and given Israel's own military strength.)

I think it was an absolute master stoke by the brits (obviously with jewish influence) to go through with this plan and carve up the middle east. The Ottoman empire was once an actual thing!

How its been handled since then is debatable and im not for israel taking any more land but I like the fact they exist and that they are there to bare the brunt of islamist anger over the fact they exist.

I still think the world should be run by who has the most powerful military as thats how human interaction has been dictated since the practically the dawn of time.

The israeli's were very smart to get their hooks into the USA and britain and the USA and britain were very stupid to allow it to the extent it is today. But its a reciprocal relationship to a degree.

Katman

7th January 2020, 11:30

But its a reciprocal relationship to a degree.

In what way?

What exactly does Israel offer America (and to a far lesser degree, the UK) in return?

austingtir

7th January 2020, 11:34

In what way?

What exactly does Israel offer America (and to a far lesser degree, the UK) in return?

Its in what I just stated a military power similar to the former ottoman empire is highly unlikely to be formed with all the muslim factions split apart.

If israel did not exist. The USA and the UK could be facing THREE military superpowers right now instead of one and a half.

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 11:48

And none of that addresses the question of why America is so heavily involved (both overtly and clandestinely) in the whole Middle East conflict.

Because bloodshed in the Middle East doesn't stay confined to the Middle East.
Because Russia was quite happy to ply them with Weapons and Socialist Politics.
Because many of them are brutal dictators with a penchant for training Terrorist groups.

There's many many more that don't involve Israel.

husaberg

7th January 2020, 11:51

In what way?

What exactly does Israel offer America (and to a far lesser degree, the UK) in return?

Gee i wonder What does Russia get out of Syria, i wonder.............Seriously
How many friends do you think the US have in the middle east?
Why is it the world considers the middle east so important...........
Surely even you you can figure out why having a toe hold in the middle east and the history of how and by who Israel was formed might be a clue to the even mediocre minds.

Katman

7th January 2020, 12:26

There's many many more that don't involve Israel.

Are you familiar with the claim made by Theodor Herzl that God promised to the Jews all the land from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates?

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 12:28

Are you familiar with the claim made by Theodor Herzl that God promised to the Jews all the land from the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates?

Many people have Many Gods who promise them Many things.

Some of them even bother to write it down.

Doesn't alter or change that everything in the middle east can be explained without Israel or God or the US.

Katman

7th January 2020, 12:29

Many people have Many Gods who promise them Many things.

Some of them even bother to write it down.

Doesn't alter or change that everything in the middle east can be explained without Israel or God or the US.

What if Theodor Herzl's claim is the foundation on which Zionism exists?

sugilite

7th January 2020, 12:33

God you two are dense its a parody website FFS. No wonder you fall for all that real propaganda.

The CNN link should of given it away if the first one didnt.

https://babylonbee.com/news/mandalorian-arrives-to-protect-baby-trump-from-iranian-bounty-hunters

https://babylonbee.com/news

LMFAO
Just about everything you post is implausible conspiracy laced twaddle. Don't blame us for not putting in any effort to see if you are serious or not.

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 12:48

What if Theodor Herzl's claim is the foundation on which Zionism exists?

Does that somehow travel into the past and setup the Tribal differences, ethnic differences and religious differences that were the cause of about 6-700 years worth of conflict in the Middle East?

No?

Then whilst (if I'm being as charitable as I possibly can be) it might be A factor, it most definitely is not THE factor. Furtherconsidering the history, if it is A factor, then it is at best a minor one.

austingtir

7th January 2020, 12:49

Just about everything you post is implausible conspiracy laced twaddle. Don't blame us for not putting in any effort to see if you are serious or not.

I dont have to do anything to make the pair of you look silly you do that all on your own. Sometimes you even team up to double down on stupid.

oldrider

7th January 2020, 13:01

Thought it might be appropriate to post this here at this time FYI? (or not?)

c90adventures
44.6K subscribers
This is the video update for me riding through Iran, on my journey from Malaysia to the UK on my Honda C90.

This video may be long-winded but it needs to be to truely show just how awesome Iran is!

I'm so glad I went through there and not avoid it like the newspapers and government try to make you do.

Don't forget to go to www.c90adventures.co.uk for all my other video updates, pictures and spoof comedy videos.

Enjoy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=118&v=_2LEgowbzSc&feature=emb_logo

<iframe width="280" height="158" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_2LEgowbzSc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

sugilite

7th January 2020, 13:12

I dont have to do anything to make the pair of you look silly you do that all on your own. Sometimes you even team up to double down on stupid.
Coming from a guy that thinks Trump is the man to drain the swamp, but no dems arrested for corruption in his 3 years to date - but half his 2016 campaign team are in jail :lol:

Katman

7th January 2020, 13:14

Does that somehow travel into the past and setup the Tribal differences, ethnic differences and religious differences that were the cause of about 6-700 years worth of conflict in the Middle East?

No?

Then whilst (if I'm being as charitable as I possibly can be) it might be A factor, it most definitely is not THE factor. Furtherconsidering the history, if it is A factor, then it is at best a minor one.

And I'll bring you back to the scale of conflict we're seeing these days.

I can think of half a dozen (with clearly more to come) countries that have been virtually destroyed through the conflict that has spanned only the last 20 or so years.

Katman

7th January 2020, 13:18

What about General Wesley Clark's claim that there was a plan to 'take out' seven countries within a five year period?

Was that plan due to tribal, ethnic and religious differences?

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 13:24

And I'll bring you back to the scale of conflict we're seeing these days.

I can think of half a dozen (with clearly more to come) countries that have been virtually destroyed through the conflict that has spanned only the last 20 or so years.

That's a function of Technology and Population.

50 people armed with Spears, Bows and Arrows travelling on Camels can't wreak as much havoc as 5,000 armed with RPGs, IEDs and AKs travelling in Toyota Hiluxs.

Katman

7th January 2020, 13:27

That's a function of Technology and Population.

50 people armed with Spears, Bows and Arrows travelling on Camels can't wreak as much havoc as 5,000 armed with RPGs, IEDs and AKs travelling in Toyota Hiluxs.

Are you telling me that America's invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and their bombing of a number of other countries is down to tribal, ethnic and religious differences?

oldrider

7th January 2020, 13:29

The New Iranian Crisis - E. Michael Jones' Analysis:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=45&v=AYFiv73kQis&feature=emb_logo

<iframe width="280" height="158" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/AYFiv73kQis" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 13:49

Are you telling me that America's invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and their bombing of a number of other countries is down to tribal, ethnic and religious differences?

The US used to be on good terms with Iran, before a certain religious event.

There's also Saddam's campaign against the Kurds (Religious and Ethnic based)

The Iran - Iraq war was over Religious differences.

Said war laid the groundwork for the invasion of Kuwait.

sugilite

7th January 2020, 14:18

The Iran - Iraq war was over Religious differences.

Said war laid the groundwork for the invasion of Kuwait.

I would hazard a guess that, that war like most are not about "who has the bestest invisible friend" but more about control of resources, like just about every war ever. The war mongers just rouse up the soldiers with the religious shit.

I'm with Katman on the Israel thing. If their neighbors were not so unified in hatred against them, I have no doubt Isreal would of confiscated/annexed much more territory by now.
I don't pretend to know much about the intricacies of the middle east, but do find it curious that a country such as the USA which is absolutely riddled with debt, borrows money to give to Israel, who have a shit ton less debt than they do! Must be some deep shit skulduggery in there somewhere.

pritch

7th January 2020, 14:31

Just about everything you post is implausible conspiracy laced twaddle. Don't blame us for not putting in any effort to see if you are serious or not.

The MAGAts are buggers for publishing stuff they find on satire sites as fact, usually because they are unable to tell the difference between fact and satire.

To be fair though, now that Trump has done so much weird nonsense and the White House is full of sycophants and chancers, the line is becoming blurred.

TheDemonLord

7th January 2020, 14:57

I would hazard a guess that, that war like most are not about "who has the bestest invisible friend" but more about control of resources, like just about every war ever. The war mongers just rouse up the soldiers with the religious shit.

Control of Resources probably enters into it, so to does being the historic power in the region. But to deny that there is a long tradition of Religious fighting between the main Islamic factions is foolish.

I'm with Katman on the Israel thing. If their neighbors were not so unified in hatred against them, I have no doubt Isreal would of confiscated/annexed much more territory by now.
I don't pretend to know much about the intricacies of the middle east, but do find it curious that a country such as the USA which is absolutely riddled with debt, borrows money to give to Israel, who have a shit ton less debt than they do! Must be some deep shit skulduggery in there somewhere.

Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. I'm not a particular fan of the US aid to Israel. That said even if Israel is pissing everyone off - how do you explain the violence that spans over half a millenia that predates Israel?

austingtir

7th January 2020, 14:57

What about General Wesley Clark's claim that there was a plan to 'take out' seven countries within a five year period?

Was that plan due to tribal, ethnic and religious differences?

But history shows they didnt do that .... They only did 3 and a half.

When that first came out (13 years ago!!) I was like you holy shit look at this but now I just look at it as thats what the deepstate do. As Clark said this is a certain group or faction inside the american government and military industrial complex that got control of the wheels of power and went ham (Bush, Clinton,Bush Obama and then it was meant to be Hillary to continue that cronyism...)

Trump is not the same as them and the last three years has proven that. But he still has to tow certain lines for the people that got him there obviously and thats most likely not going to align with what some halfwits down at the bottom of the south pacific think he should be doing.

If Hillary was president they would of already mounted a full invasion of Iran and syria either via their proxies that they clearly setup for exactly that purpose like ISIS and this general they just blew up in Iraq.

That part is why they hate him so much. He has dismantled so many of their well laid plans now that they are freaking out. And by that im mainly talking about drug, people smuggling (which is why there was a big song and dance about khashoggi) and the likes of what epstein was upto.

https://i.imgur.com/SltNv50.jpg

^^Another one to keep sugilightweight and pickle busy......

husaberg

7th January 2020, 15:08

I would hazard a guess that, that war like most are not about "who has the bestest invisible friend" but more about control of resources, like just about every war ever. The war mongers just rouse up the soldiers with the religious shit.

I'm with Katman on the Israel thing. If their neighbors were not so unified in hatred against them, I have no doubt Isreal would of confiscated/annexed much more territory by now.
I don't pretend to know much about the intricacies of the middle east, but do find it curious that a country such as the USA which is absolutely riddled with debt, borrows money to give to Israel, who have a shit ton less debt than they do! Must be some deep shit skulduggery in there somewhere.

Hint on the Israel thing, do you think its a co-incidence that Israel has given all the land back to countries that have simply reconised them... eg Egypt and Jordan.
if they were not fighting with Israel, they would be fighting with each other who has the best tribe oil and sky pixie, Remember that Palestine wasn't stolen ever off Palestine it was taken from Jordan. people tent to forget that little fact.
What makes me chuckle is No ones questioning the motives of RUssia wiping all Syria's debts (10 billion USD 2005) to them and spending up large. they have 30,000 people there.
Especially considering At the end of June 2013, Russian deputy foreign minister Mikhail Bogdanov said in an interview that the russian facility did not have any strategic or military importance...........
Nor do the same mention, the Russian invasion of the Ukraine..........

Katman

7th January 2020, 15:14

But history shows they didnt do that .... They only did 3 and a half.

Plans don't always go according to plan.

Katman

7th January 2020, 15:15

But to deny that there is a long tradition of Religious fighting between the main Islamic factions is foolish.

Has anyone here done that?

Or are you just imagining it?

husaberg

7th January 2020, 16:12

What about General Wesley Clark's claim that there was a plan to 'take out' seven countries within a five year period?

Was that plan due to tribal, ethnic and religious differences?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK: 2007 (He claimed the conversation occurred in 2002)

Well, starting with Iraq, then Syria and Lebanon, then Libya, then Somalia and Sudan, and back to Iran.
He scores a 0.5 he got one right years afterward it already happened.
the US invaded Iraq 5 years before he stated the plan. So he scores a Zero.. He gets .5 if we give him something for being involved in Syria.
The US involvement in Libya was UN. no us troops. no invasion no points
I am being exceedingly generous as they are all outside the time-frame.
So wow 0.5 out of 7 wow but none within his timeframe.............

austingtir

7th January 2020, 17:41

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qole2PKsAE

Ricky Gervais
‏
Verified account

@rickygervais
Follow Follow @rickygervais
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How the fuck can teasing huge corporations, and the richest, most privileged people in the world be considered right wing? �� #GoldenGlobes

austingtir

7th January 2020, 18:05

The United States has denied Iranian Foreign Minister Zarif a visa to travel to the United States for a UN Security Council meeting on Thursday

https://twitter.com/NewsBreaking/status/1214365848778883073

This guy is the FATHER of the Best Man at Kerry's daughter's wedding to an Iranian doctor. Kerry is deeply involved in this shit as are many others, especially in the Obama admin.

Now, when the UN threatens to move out Trump can turn the UN headquarters into his presidential library......

https://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/d4437927.gif

sugilite

7th January 2020, 20:54

Control of Resources probably enters into it, so to does being the historic power in the region. But to deny that there is a long tradition of Religious fighting between the main Islamic factions is foolish.
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.". Do you really think war mongers believe in God - I'm the one that is foolish - are you sure?

Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. I'm not a particular fan of the US aid to Israel. That said even if Israel is pissing everyone off - how do you explain the violence that spans over half a millenia that predates Israel?
I do not need to explain it, because I never suggested that the violence only started when Israel came on the scene.
This is why I find it so difficult to converse with you, because you constantly intimate I have said something and then proceed to argue against it. I have told you before that you put words in my mouth, and you deny it. Why do you choose to communicate this way? To what end? Do you somehow feel the need to create a scenario then argue against it in order to feel you are walking away having gained the upper hand - by making a point that was not in question in the first place? Have a think about why you do this, and get back to me.

oldrider

7th January 2020, 21:26

Published 3 months ago on October 2, 2019
By Makia Freeman

Last Updated on October 14, 2019

Israel, the Planned Home of the New World Order:- https://thefreedomarticles.com/israel-planned-home-of-new-world-order/?owa_medium=feed&owa_sid= - Trump? - Making sense of it all? - :wait:

pritch

8th January 2020, 01:50

An advisor to Iran’s leader has posted a tweet linking to a Forbes article which lists all Trump properties. All of which It implies are suitable as targets.

Staying at a Trump property is more risky today, it used to be only bed bugs you had to worry about.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 08:30

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.". Do you really think war mongers believe in God - I'm the one that is foolish - are you sure?

I'm sure there are those that fervently do, I'm also sure there are those that see it as a tool to achieve their end whilst thinking it's all bullshit. The end result however, is the same. I mean if you want to remove the veneer of religion, then fine - but I'd counter with it's still one of the oldest reason for conflict known to man: Us vs Them.

I do not need to explain it, because I never suggested that the violence only started when Israel came on the scene.
This is why I find it so difficult to converse with you, because you constantly intimate I have said something and then proceed to argue against it. I have told you before that you put words in my mouth, and you deny it. Why do you choose to communicate this way? To what end? Do you somehow feel the need to create a scenario then argue against it in order to feel you are walking away having gained the upper hand - by making a point that was not in question in the first place? Have a think about why you do this, and get back to me.

That's the line of logic that Katman was advancing (which when you said you kinda agree with Katman on Israel, I took that to mean, y'know, that you agree with it...) that Israel/The US is the cause (or significant cause) of all/the majority of problems in the Middle East.
Considering that was the part of Katman's argument that I was refuting, it seems fair on my part that since you said you agree with him, you also agree with that statement. Bearing in mind up until that post, all of the discourse had been between myself and Katman - so if you chime in after the points he has made, it's not entirely putting words in your mouth, now is it?

That all said however - let's try over:

If you want to differentiate exactly where you differentiate from that line of Logic (and where in the argument your 'kinda agree' lies) then sure. Or better yet - state what your position is, entirely separate from Katman.

I think I've been clear - there is plenty to be critical of Israel for, there's plenty to criticise the US for. There is also plenty to be critical of the other Middle Eastern countries for which is often omitted, either via Naivety or outright dishonesty. It's easy to make the US look bad for intervening in the Middle East, it gets a little more interesting when you weight it against the alternative - brutal dictatorships, Torture, Genocide etc.

Katman

8th January 2020, 08:38

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 08:41

And there you go again, arguing against something that hasn't been said.

Except you did say exactly that. Every time I brought up the historical violence - you'd counter with 'it's much worse today' and point to the involvement of the US and Israel.

Whereas I pointed out that the escalation of violence is more readily explained by advances in technology and population size (which you summarily ignored).

Katman

8th January 2020, 08:47

Except you did say exactly that. Every time I brought up the historical violence - you'd counter with 'it's much worse today' and point to the involvement of the US and Israel.

That's right - I said the scale of unrest is much worse today. And I gave the example of a number of countries that have virtually been destroyed in the space of 20 years. I certainly haven't argued that violence in the Middle East didn't exist before the creation of either Israel or America.

And I stand by my comments that the scale of unrest in the Middle East today is largely due to America acting on behalf of Israel to destabilize and weaken Israel's neighbours in order to make Israel's expansionist goals more easily achieved.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 08:55

That's right - I said the scale of unrest is much worse today. And I gave the example of a number of countries that have virtually been destroyed in the space of 20 years. I certainly haven't argued that violence in the Middle East didn't exist before the creation of either Israel or America.

So, if you agree with my premise that they have always been violent towards each other and you agree (presumably) that technology has changed in the last 50-100 years or so, why this comment:

And I stand by my comments that the scale of unrest in the Middle East today is largely due to America acting on behalf of Israel to destabilize and weaken Israel's neighbours in order to make Israel's expansionist goals more easily achieved.

Since the above 2 factors alone: They've always been like that and now they can do it with a bigger bang explain your statement 'the scale of unrest is much worse today'.

Israel and America do not enter into that equation.

Now, I've said that one could agree that Israel and the US may have aggravated pre-existing issues, but to make the claim you have to agree that without US or Israel interference things would not be better.

In fact, there's quite a few people who have fled the region who say that fear of the Americans is what keeps them from devolving into all out tribal warfare.

Katman

8th January 2020, 09:24

Since the above 2 factors alone: They've always been like that and now they can do it with a bigger bang explain your statement 'the scale of unrest is much worse today'.

Well it clearly explains it in your eyes.

But here's the thing - not everyone sees things through your eyes.

Katman

8th January 2020, 09:26

Now, I've said that one could agree that Israel and the US may have aggravated pre-existing issues, but to make the claim you have to agree that without US or Israel interference things would not be better.

I don't have to agree to anything of the sort.

In fact, I'm quite confident in stating that without Israel and America's machiavellian machinations, the situation in the Middle East would be considerably better.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 09:51

Well it clearly explains it in your eyes.

But here's the thing - not everyone sees things through your eyes.

Whilst that is partly true - your explanation needs a large number of ancillary and not reliably proven conjectures to come close to explaining it.

Mine doesn't.

Applying Occams Razor, it would put the explanation I put forth as being most likely to be correct.

I don't have to agree to anything of the sort.

In fact, I'm quite confident in stating that without Israel and America's machiavellian machinations, the situation in the Middle East would be considerably better.

Bull.
Shit.

And this is why I called you foolish, because to make that statement is to ignore literally the last 600 years of Middle Eastern history.

Unless of course you think having a number of warring Dictators with a penchant for Genocide, Torture, secret police and political repression is somehow 'better'.

Although I seem to remember you having already stated that, so....

Katman

8th January 2020, 10:00

Bull.
Shit.

And this is why I called you foolish, because to make that statement is to ignore literally the last 600 years of Middle Eastern history.

Unless of course you think having a number of warring Dictators with a penchant for Genocide, Torture, secret police and political repression is somehow 'better'.

Although I seem to remember you having already stated that, so....

While you're busy looking at a 600 year period of history, I'm looking more closely at the last 20 years.

And I'll repeat, I believe the scale of unrest in the Middle East is considerably worse today.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 10:04

While you're busy looking at a 600 year period of history, I'm looking more closely at the last 20 years.

Yes, and seeing a Tree instead of the Forest in which it was planted and grew to maturity.

And I'll repeat, I believe the scale of unrest in the Middle East is considerably worse today.

Taking your belief as sincere:

Does that justify Brutal Dictators?

Yes/No?

Because you have a moral conundrum.

Katman

8th January 2020, 10:05

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 10:16

And while there's still obviously a great degree of unrest between factions of differing political and religious groups in the Middle East, it's an undeniable fact that entities like the CIA have poured plenty of fuel on the fire by funding one or the other side.

All in the name of destabilizing that country.

Because destabilized countries are less able to resist the expansion of another country which has empire building as their goal.

You can only pour Fuel on something that is already there.

And why no mention of Russia? They certainly had a lot of influence in the Middle East. Whose empire were they helping to build (if your line of conjecture is correct).

Then there is the Elephant in the room (that I'll re-frame for you):

Does 'Stability' justify Brutal Dictators who achieve that stability through torture, Murder and Oppression?

Katman

8th January 2020, 10:22

Does 'Stability' justify Brutal Dictators who achieve that stability through torture, Murder and Oppression?

I don't lay claim to knowing what it takes to control a country in the Middle East which has opposing factions.

But the term 'brutal dictator' is very dependent on how much you believe the narrative that the mainstream media is intent on spreading.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 10:34

I don't lay claim to knowing what it takes to control a country in the Middle East which has opposing factions.

But the term 'brutal dictator' is very dependent on how much you believe the narrative that the mainstream media is intent on spreading.

That's an implicit acceptance then, isn't it.

You'd happily accept a thousand corpses, just so long as you didn't have blood on your hands from a single one.

As for Brutal Dictator:

Secret Police.
State Torture.
State Murder.
Genocide.

All of which are fairly well documented, given what came after said dictatorships (more of the same, just by different groups), it's not like you can say these were outliers or one-offs or something being made up.

Katman

8th January 2020, 10:37

That's an implicit acceptance then, isn't it.

You'd happily accept a thousand corpses, just so long as you didn't have blood on your hands from a single one.

As for Brutal Dictator:

Secret Police.
State Torture.
State Murder.
Genocide.

All of which are fairly well documented, given what came after said dictatorships (more of the same, just by different groups), it's not like you can say these were outliers or one-offs or something being made up.

Like I said, I don't claim to know what it takes to control a Middle East country with opposing factions.

And I suspect you don't either.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 10:39

I don't lay claim to knowing what it takes to control a country in the Middle East which has opposing factions.

But the term 'brutal dictator' is very dependent on how much you believe the narrative that the mainstream media is intent on spreading.

Brutal dictator most likely...... But he's deff crazy:

https://twitter.com/SSG_PAIN/status/1214557508825538563

When Trump starts acting like this sugilite and co and give me a call.

"Intel Shows Soleimani Was a CIA Asset, Protected by Obama Administration

Regarding Soleimani’s death, President Trump tweeted: “He should have been taken out years ago.”

“Should have been taken out”…so why wasn’t he? Was he like Osama Bin Laden, hidden away in the mountains somewhere? Were his movements so stealthy even our intelligence apparatus couldn’t track him? No, and no!

For years Soleinami left his bloody fingerprints on terror acts across the Middle East. Flush with cash from Obama’s 150-billion-dollar money drop, he had all the resources he needed to keep on killing Iran’s enemies. He was arrogant and powerful and our number one enemy in the Middle East. So, why wasn’t he worried about being taken out, as the other terrorist leaders had been?"

https://www.dcclothesline.com/2020/01/07/intel-shows-soleimani-was-a-cia-asset-protected-by-obama-administration/

https://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/a995dc408b.jpg

MaxPenguin

8th January 2020, 10:39

And while there's still obviously a great degree of unrest between factions of differing political and religious groups in the Middle East, it's an undeniable fact that entities like the CIA have poured plenty of fuel on the fire by funding one or the other side.

All in the name of destabilizing that country.

Because destabilized countries are less able to resist the expansion of another country which has empire building as their goal.

First they destabize them, then when it all turns to shit they send in the cavalry to save the day. USA are terrorists plain and simple.Terrorism is a cheap way of ensuring supply of oil. Just another COGS.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 10:45

First they destabize them, then when it all turns to shit they send in the cavalry to save the day. USA are terrorists plain and simple.Terrorism is a cheap way of ensuring supply of oil. Just another COGS.

I dont get this argument.

IF the USA was not doing this somebody else would and at the current stage its probably going to be China/Russia between them that will push in for control of the resources and give these countries protection so that they are UNTOUCHABLE. Thats not going to benefit us in any way shape or form.

Now has elements of the CIA and military industrial complex got out of control? For sure and imo Trump is in the process of sorting that out right now but to do that he's having to break a few eggs.

Which is why we see the CIA controlled MSM spinning every single thing Trump does.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 11:40

Iran = Mad Lads confirmed.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 11:46

Like I said, I don't claim to know what it takes to control a Middle East country with opposing factions.

And I suspect you don't either.

I do know one thing:

It doesn't justify the Tyranny of a Dictator that tortures people.

And those are the words that you will not speak. You dance around the question avoiding the fundamental moral question: What is the Price of Stability, What is the cost of Freedom.

I am happy to state that being free from murderous dictators/warlords/factions comes with a cost that is ALWAYS worth paying.

Because I hold those things to be deeply and fundamentally wrong. I would not wish it upon myself nor would I wish it upon anyone else (although a few do come pretty damn close, if only so they can learn why such things are bad).

The inherent proof of this is there are plenty of shitholes around the world, being run by dictators just as vicious and nasty as those in the Middle East - name one that you would want to live in, then go live there and let us know how you get on.

Katman

8th January 2020, 11:57

I do know one thing:

It doesn't justify the Tyranny of a Dictator that tortures people.

What about America's policy on torture?

pritch

8th January 2020, 12:04

On a slightly different note, I see another person connected to the Trump campaign has been charged with obstruction for falsifying evidence.

Also the prosecution has recommended a six month jail sentence for General Flynn.

Trump’s associates are a gang of thieves, spies, and pedophiles, but he’s clean as a whistle. Yeah right.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 12:11

What about America's policy on torture?

I'll answer that question when you resolve you Moral Conundrum and actually decide whether or not a brutal dictatorship is worth it.

That said, as bad as I find the Waterboarding, Abu Graib and other instances - there's a bit of a difference between Capturing and interrogating enemy combatants and flogging someone repeatedly for missing a Penalty in a game of Football.

So if you want to talk about 'America's policy on Torture' - let's make sure we are comparing apples with apples eh?

Katman

8th January 2020, 12:30

That said, as bad as I find the Waterboarding, Abu Graib and other instances - there's a bit of a difference between Capturing and interrogating enemy combatants and flogging someone repeatedly for missing a Penalty in a game of Football.

It goes way beyond just a bit of waterboarding in Abu Graib.

It includes the willful handing over of prisoners to local authorites in the full knowledge that those prisoners will most likely to be subjected to torture.

Even New Zealand soldiers have been guilty of that.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 12:42

It goes way beyond just a bit of waterboarding in Abu Graib.

It includes the willful handing over of prisoners to local authorites in the full knowledge that those prisoners will most likely to be subjected to torture.

Even New Zealand soldiers have been guilty of that.

So, should we invade those other authorities to make sure they don't do that?

Katman

8th January 2020, 12:54

So, should we invade those other authorities to make sure they don't do that?

:facepalm:

It happens in countries that America has already invaded.

pritch

8th January 2020, 13:18

Even New Zealand soldiers have been guilty of that.

I really don't want to get involved in this little merry go round but...

The New Zealand soldiers were not "guilty" of anything. It is completely normal to hand prisoners to the authorities in the country concerned.

Are you suggesting that all prisoners captured are brought back to NZ? Because that seems to be the alternative.

Katman

8th January 2020, 13:20

The New Zealand soldiers were not "guilty" of anything. It is completely normal to hand prisoners to the authorities in the country concerned.

They handed them over in the full knowledge that they would most likely be subjected to torture.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 13:29

They handed them over in the full knowledge that they would most likely be subjected to torture.

LMAO

Thats why they handed them over. So we dont get in the shit for torturing them.

Fuckin hell. :facepalm:

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 13:32

:facepalm:

It happens in countries that America has already invaded.

Perhaps the retort was a little clipped:

Should we invade those countries, and setup and entire Governmental, judicial and Law Enforcement system (just like Britain did in the 1700-1800s) to ensure that we have sufficient oversight to know that Torture isn't going to happen.

Katman

8th January 2020, 13:37

Thats why they handed them over. So we dont get in the shit for torturing them.

And I'm asking TDL if he supports that policy.

pritch

8th January 2020, 14:15

They handed them over in the full knowledge that they would most likely be subjected to torture.

You don't actually know that, but that's not relevant.

If you don't think troops should hand prisoners to the local authorities, what do you think they should do with them? Shoot them?

Katman

8th January 2020, 14:40

If you don't think troops should hand prisoners to the local authorities, what do you think they should do with them? Shoot them?

It's got nothing to do with whether I think troops should hand over prisoners to the local authorities.

I'm asking whether TDL supports the handing over of prisoners in the knowledge that they will most likely be subjected to torture.

What's so hard to understand about that?

pritch

8th January 2020, 14:54

It's got nothing to do with whether I think troops should hand over prisoners to the local authorities.

I'm asking whether TDL supports the handing over of prisoners in the knowledge that they will most likely be subjected to torture.

What's so hard to understand about that?

That's simple - as in simple minded. What I'm asking is if handing prisoners to the local authority is unacceptable to you, and that is the normal procedure, what would you want done with them?

Katman

8th January 2020, 14:57

What I'm asking is if handing prisoners to the local authority is unacceptable to you, and that is the normal procedure.

And like I said, that's got nothing to do with what is being discussed.

I am simply asking if TDL supports handing prisoners over when it's known that they will be subjected to torture.

Because he's the one who brought up the issue of torture.

pritch

8th January 2020, 15:11

And like I said, that's got nothing to do with what is being discussed.

I am simply asking if TDL supports handing prisoners over when it's known that they will be subjected to torture.

Because he's the one who brought up the issue of torture.

And I was asking what you'd suggest but apparently you've got nothing.

I don't know what TDL says, I don't see his stuff.

TheDemonLord

8th January 2020, 15:13

And like I said, that's got nothing to do with what is being discussed.

I am simply asking if TDL supports handing prisoners over when it's known that they will be subjected to torture.

Because he's the one who brought up the issue of torture.

And I asked if that justifies taking over the entire operation of a country to ensure it doesn't happen, Just like the British did, very successfully, in many countries. Ending local customs of Torture, Wife Burning, Head Hunting etc.

Something, which I suspect, you are very much opposed to.

So which is it?

You still haven't answered whether or not Stability is a justification for Dictatorships either.

But let's entertain your scenario (because afterall, I answer questions put to me) - the point of contention is not the rank and file members following procedure. The problem is at the level of administration that does not have sufficient safeguards and pressure to ensure that torture does not happen. If you want me to be critical of the US that turns a blind eye or does not do enough to ensure the local Police/military forces don't engage in that behaviour, then yes I am critical of that.

Will you also be likewise critical of culture and society that thinks this is normal and acceptable behavior - afterall, they've been doing that for thousands of years...

Katman

8th January 2020, 15:26

And I was asking what you'd suggest but apparently you've got nothing.

Correct.

I don't have an opinion on what you asked.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 15:28

https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/1214726114385334272

Trump tweets "all is well".

LMAO. Iran has clearly been communicating with Trump the entire time via back channels.

No US casualites and the ones that were exposed in the small base had left before hand which means the US fully Knew what and where the attack was going to happen. This is a school play.

Cliffs:
Iran fires off a bunch of missiles purely to save face.
Trump is clearly completely in control of this situation.

Now I cant wait to see the news hyperventilating about all this tonight and the next couple of days and how they spin it.

husaberg

8th January 2020, 15:40

Trump tweets "all is well".
Trump is clearly completely in control of this situation.
.

I doubt trump has control of his bladder let alone any situation, other than this one.
https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/assets_c/2011/03/AP110309090915-thumb-600x400-44909.jpg
Trump is clearly incompetent, but is he incontinent? Depends........
https://www.politicalflare.com/2019/11/former-employee-says-trump-wears-adult-diapers-due-to-incontinence-from-repeated-stimulant-abuse/

austingtir

8th January 2020, 15:41

Might of spoke to soon.... DOOM ON!

Ukrainian passenger plane down in Iran 180 people on board.... WTF.... This could get interesting.

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1214750551407124480

Scroll down to the gif by Nika S.....

LMFAO

pritch

8th January 2020, 15:55

I doubt trump has control of his bladder let alone any situation,

There are people who believe he is incontinent and sometimes wears adult nappies. Thus the baggy suits and super long ties. There are photos that tend to confirm that theory.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 16:35

There are people who believe he is incontinent and sometimes wears adult nappies. Thus the baggy suits and super long ties. There are photos that tend to confirm that theory.

What a sad life you must live.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 16:41

If this was the plane that looks like its been shot at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=h0JYI-sG2JE&feature=emb_logo

Ukraine's president is a Hebrew......

Laava

8th January 2020, 17:13

Correct.

I don't have an opinion on what you asked.
Of course you don't. You're only here for the trolling.

husaberg

8th January 2020, 17:42

There are people who believe he is incontinent and sometimes wears adult nappies. Thus the baggy suits and super long ties. There are photos that tend to confirm that theory.

Austy laps it all up, like he does with Trumps other dribble. A sucker who swallows cock and bull stories, Much like another of KB trolls.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 18:06

Austy laps it all up, like he does with Trumps other dribble. A sucker who swallows cock and bull stories, Much like another of KB trolls.

Trump supporters see it as well-played 3d chess.

TDSers don't believe anything Trump says anyway.

0 net loss.

sugilite

8th January 2020, 19:41

That's the line of logic that Katman was advancing (which when you said you kinda agree with Katman on Israel, I took that to mean, y'know, that you agree with it...) that Israel/The US is the cause (or significant cause) of all/the majority of problems in the Middle East.

Hold it right there Mr Demonlord - Care to read exactly what I said? "I'm with Katman on the Israel thing. If their neighbors were not so unified in hatred against them, I have no doubt Isreal would of confiscated/annexed much more territory by now." I firmly stand by the methods I have stated you put to use on a fairly regular basis.
I'm quite clear where I say I agree with Katman. For the record, I have not seen Katman say there was no conflict before Israel either, just that there seems to be more now. To go on record, I say the Israel thing has certainly added a new dimension to the conflict. But to use the time scales you are, I say heavy duty hatred and ethnic cleansing was certainly not just confined to the middle east over that time period. Humans have generally been shitty towards each other all over - regardless of what invisable friend they subscribe to. I would "speculate" that us living in a predominantly Christian leaning country/societies, get the "baddy muslims" narrative in a highlighted fashion conveniently low lighting what christian countries have been up top over the same time period.

sugilite

8th January 2020, 19:48

Brutal dictator most likely...... But he's deff crazy:

https://twitter.com/SSG_PAIN/status/1214557508825538563

When Trump starts acting like this sugilite and co and give me a call.

Trump is not and never will be a dictator. Dictators do not get run by other Dictators.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/07/17/09/4E550C9200000578-0-image-m-14_1531817716767.jpg

sugilite

8th January 2020, 20:09

Yeah, I don't buy it. Not a single bit.

For starters, there is too much complicity from them - from her Mother giving up her Career, to Greta having access to 'contacts' that no ordinary girl had, to her parents sharing the same ideological positions.
Speculation at best, reading the article, one could also draw the conclusion they came about their ideology from learning from their daughter in regards to climate change and so on. I certainly have learned new things from my children. Just saying.

"Mum and Dad, I'm going to sail a millionaire Yacht to protest Climate change!"
"No. You are not. You are going to school"
"You can't tell me what to do!"
"Since we are your parents, A - We can and B - We can and C - When you are 18 you can do whatever you want, but whilst you live under this roof, paid for by our work, you live by our rules"
"But Muuuuuuuuuuum"
"But no Buts - Get thee Hence!"
Spoken by a parent who I'm picking has not had to try and implement their will on a stroppy teenage daughter, yet alone one with Asperger syndrome.
I have two daughters - full blood sisters. One is a scientist who has recently passed her masters with straight A's all the way, has private companies offering to put her through Doctorate. The other daughter bends steel using her bare hands for a living - yes really. I'm impossibly proud of the both of them and what they have achieved. Having said that, I would just love to have seen them effortlessly tear your above parenting style to shreds. Get back to me when you have got through your daughters teens, you may even have a chuckle at what your wrote back in 2020 ;)

So, no, I don't buy it that they were against it, since if they were, they could (and some might say should) have stopped it.
Hmmm, I do not recall reading anywhere in that article they were against it, just that they were initially uncomfortable about it - and understandably so.

austingtir

8th January 2020, 21:24

So we have a plane that was likely registered in Ukraine go down in Iran from a blatantly obvious missile strike (or some type of AA gun).....

Ukraine is likely to lead the investigation...... I still dont believe those phaggots from when they ran the mh17 investigation.

The MSM is just going to go along with whatever these CIA/mossad controlled asshats in Ukraine/Iran come out with.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/01/08/08/23138828-7863359-image-a-8_1578471963608.jpg

WTF

63 "canadians" on board? I guess the canucks are giving out residencies like lolly scrambles these days....

Iran - 82
"Canada" - 63
Ukraine - 2 + 9 (crew)
Sweden - 10
Afghanistan - 4
Germany - 3
United Kingdom - 3

sugilite

8th January 2020, 21:49

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmdkFytGyFY

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 08:40

Hold it right there Mr Demonlord - Care to read exactly what I said? "I'm with Katman on the Israel thing. If their neighbors were not so unified in hatred against them, I have no doubt Isreal would of confiscated/annexed much more territory by now." I firmly stand by the methods I have stated you put to use on a fairly regular basis.
I'm quite clear where I say I agree with Katman. For the record, I have not seen Katman say there was no conflict before Israel either, just that there seems to be more now.

Correct, it's that last part that where he and I differ. Which of the two factors do you think is more likely to increase the scale of conflict:

1: Israel
2: Increase in population coupled with Modern transport and Armaments.

If you are choosing option 1, you have to ignore the history of Armed Conflict in the last ~150 years and downplay the pre-existing issues in the Middle East.

As for whether Israel would have done more or less - Maybe, although perhaps it would be harder to get international tacit acceptance if the surrounding countries haven't continually vowed to wipe Israel from the map.

To go on record, I say the Israel thing has certainly added a new dimension to the conflict. But to use the time scales you are, I say heavy duty hatred and ethnic cleansing was certainly not just confined to the middle east over that time period. Humans have generally been shitty towards each other all over - regardless of what invisable friend they subscribe to.

New Dimension? Sure. But not one that overrides the problems that existed prior to Israels creation. However I agree with you entirely that nomadic Tribal groups the world over regularly engaged in inter-tribal warfare and practices that today we would refer to as Genocide.

The problem is that from an English/European point of view most of that stopped after the Roman occupation, although you could argue that until Alfred the Great, inter-kingdom warfare in England was still a thing. That however was over 1,000 years ago. Whereas Saddam's campaign against the Kurds was within living memory. Iran, the Kuds, ISIS etc. all are acting in a manner that is consistent with what we would call 'Tribal Warfare', including the murdering of entire families who 'helped the enemy'

I would "speculate" that us living in a predominantly Christian leaning country/societies, get the "baddy muslims" narrative in a highlighted fashion conveniently low lighting what christian countries have been up top over the same time period.

Sure - Christians have been shitty, no disagreement from me. The Crusades, the Inquisition. However, for all the ills and umbridges I have with Christianity - it eventually ended the Slave Trade (something that the Middle East were and some argue still very much are in love with), created Human Rights - those aren't small things. I'll leave it to you as to whether you think that those (and other things) act as a counterweight to the various shitty things they have done. The one point remains though - these are not things that occur in Islam or Islamic countries unless they have adopted them from an outside source.

When was the last time that an inter-england conflict happened in a manner like what we are seeing? Maybe the War of the Roses (1400s) and maybe the Civil war (1600s) - that's about it.

Furthermore - if you think the umbridge is with Johnny Foreigner - look at how the Sikh community has integrated into Britain, same with the Hindus (and even they have same rather bloody histories) - if anything the current intelligentsia is highly critical of anything to do with England or Englishnes and yet despite this virulent hatred and attempt to portray any event in the most damning light - Little Ol' England comes out as the least smelly shit in the manure pile.

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 08:41

Correct.

I don't have an opinion on what you asked.

Perhaps then, you should look to your own moral principles and decide then. Because you seem to be trying to have a Buck either way. Intervention is bad, but the results of not intervening are also bad.

Pick one.

Katman

9th January 2020, 08:49

Perhaps then, you should look to your own moral principles and decide then.

Have you decided yet whether you support the handing over of prisoners in the knowledge that they are most likely going to be tortured?

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 08:52

Speculation at best, reading the article, one could also draw the conclusion they came about their ideology from learning from their daughter in regards to climate change and so on. I certainly have learned new things from my children. Just saying.

You could, however there is enough circumstantial evidence to say otherwise. How does a child go about acquiring significant media connections, awfully convenient when her parents run in the same circles and said circles has a definitive political bias in favour of said cause.

Spoken by a parent who I'm picking has not had to try and implement their will on a stroppy teenage daughter, yet alone one with Asperger syndrome.
I have two daughters - full blood sisters. One is a scientist who has recently passed her masters with straight A's all the way, has private companies offering to put her through Doctorate. The other daughter bends steel using her bare hands for a living - yes really. I'm impossibly proud of the both of them and what they have achieved. Having said that, I would just love to have seen them effortlessly tear your above parenting style to shreds. Get back to me when you have got through your daughters teens, you may even have a chuckle at what your wrote back in 2020 ;)

Whilst it is a point well made and well taken (and I am sure that when Puberty comes, I will laugh at this along with you) - And a genuine Congrats on your children's accomplishments - I'd like you to consider this.

I'm Stubborn, Argumentative, Dyspraxic, bad with social cues and determined. Further consider the force of a Woman that can put up with someone like that and consider the level of resilience, fortitude etc. that she must have.

How exactly do you think our Children have turned out? I'll give you a clue: Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V...

Hmmm, I do not recall reading anywhere in that article they were against it, just that they were initially uncomfortable about it - and understandably so.

Uncomfortable/against it - regardless of the word choice - my opinion is that their unwillingness to tell their Daughter 'STFU you know nothing since you've not even finished school, never had to work to support yourself and have never had to live in the real world' tells me just how uncomfortable they weren't.

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 08:53

Have you decided yet whether you support the handing over of prisoners in the knowledge that they are most likely going to be tortured?

I've told you exactly what I support.

You've dodged both questions.

Katman

9th January 2020, 08:54

I've told you exactly what I support.

If you could point me to the exact post where you did so, that would be great.

Thanks.

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 09:09

If you could point me to the exact post where you did so, that would be great.

Thanks.

Ask and Ye shall receive. Have you decided to answer either question put to you yet? (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131150688#post1131150688)

Katman

9th January 2020, 09:13

Ask and Ye shall receive. Have you decided to answer either question put to you yet? (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131150688#post1131150688)

So I'm going to take that as a "no, I don't support handing over prisoners in the knowledge that they will be tortured".

Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

Katman

9th January 2020, 09:14

So from a morality point of view, is handing over prisoners to local authorities, in the knowledge that they will be tortured, really any different from torturing them yourself?

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 09:20

So I'm going to take that as a "no, I don't support handing over prisoners in the knowledge that they will be tortured".

Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

It's not a simple question and so does not deserve a simple answer.

So from a morality point of view, is handing over prisoners to local authorities, in the knowledge that they will be tortured, really any different from torturing them yourself?

To answer that, YOU have to answer whether that knowledge justifies interference with another countries sovereignty.

Katman

9th January 2020, 09:50

To answer that, YOU have to answer whether that knowledge justifies interference with another countries sovereignty.

Are you asking whether the knowledge that a country carries out torture justifies invading that country?

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 09:55

Are you asking whether the knowledge that a country carries out torture justifies invading that country?

No, I'm asking whether or not it justifies invading and taking over the entire societal structure of that country to ensure that Torture doesn't happen.

Katman

9th January 2020, 10:06

No, I'm asking whether or not it justifies invading and taking over the entire societal structure of that country to ensure that Torture doesn't happen.

Well I suppose that depends on the level of moral outrage you have regarding torture.

But you can hardly use the fact that a dictator tortures people as justification to invade a country if you then hand over prisoners to the local authorities in the knowledge that they will be tortured.

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 11:01

Well I suppose that depends on the level of moral outrage you have regarding torture.

And what level do you have? Does it justify it? That's the question you've not answered. Because if it doesn't then you tacitly agree with Dictators, Torture and Genocide, if those things are more preferable to you than getting metaphorical blood on your metaphorical hands.

I've been clear on my level of Moral Outrage when it comes to murderous dictators and happily draw a line in the sand that if every such institution had their doors kicked in, taken over and a proper governmental system put in place with sufficient oversight, I'd not be shedding too many tears.

I'd even go so far as to say that if several of the more egregious ones were unceremoniously Colonised, then perhaps the rest of them would very quickly pull their heads in lest the same fate befall them.

But you can hardly use the fact that a dictator tortures people as justification to invade a country if you then hand over prisoners to the local authorities in the knowledge that they will be tortured.

As I said, in order to ensure that, they would need to go further and actually create an Empire/Colony/whatever you want to call it. See above for my position on this.

Still doesn't answer YOUR position on this.

Katman

9th January 2020, 12:50

And what level do you have? Does it justify it? That's the question you've not answered. Because if it doesn't then you tacitly agree with Dictators, Torture and Genocide, if those things are more preferable to you than getting metaphorical blood on your metaphorical hands.

I don't support torture in any way, shape or form.

But I also don't support invading a country on the pretext that it's nasty dictator tortures people.

Especially when the invading army then hands over prisoners to local authorities for torture.

Now I'm sure you won't be happy with that answer - but hey, it's the answer you're getting.

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 13:34

I don't support torture in any way, shape or form.

But I also don't support invading a country on the pretext that it's nasty dictator tortures people.

Especially when the invading army then hands over prisoners to local authorities for torture.

Now I'm sure you won't be happy with that answer - but hey, it's the answer you're getting.

Which is having a buck either way.

Each option has implications for the other.

So no, you haven't answered the Question.

Either you don't support Torture and are therefore happy for action to be taken to stop it
Or
You don't support action taken to stop Torture and are therefore happy for it to continue.

Pick.
One.

Katman

9th January 2020, 13:55

So no, you haven't answered the Question.

Called it.

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 14:13

Called it.

Of course - cause you know as well as I do that you didn't answer it.

The funniest part is that you could answer it in such a manner qualifying the amount and degree of torture going on vs the potential amount of death and destruction that would be caused by going in.

At least such a cost/benefit analysis would be honest.

What we get however is just the same when I called you a Pacifist who refuses to acknowledge that you are - There is no situation you will name where you will approve of any action that results in innocent loss of life.

Just like you will say two contradictory statements and not declare on one or the other.

Katman

9th January 2020, 14:17

The funniest part is that you could answer it in such a manner qualifying the amount and degree of torture going on vs the potential amount of death and destruction that would be caused by going in.

At least such a cost/benefit analysis would be honest.

Yes, but I'm not autistic.

TheDemonLord

9th January 2020, 14:29

Yes, but I'm not autistic.

And neither am I.

What it is, however is that you're just not willing to stand on your supposed principals.

Murray

9th January 2020, 17:43

Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

Quote of 2020 already in!!!

husaberg

9th January 2020, 18:33

Quote of 2020 already in!!!

True that......... Katman cant do straight answers

oldrider

9th January 2020, 21:56

Why Do Stupid People Think They're Smart? The Dunning Kruger Effect (animated):- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJz66wm95-M - 2019 was a vintage year - 2020 even better?

Katman

10th January 2020, 08:34

And neither am I.

What it is, however is that you're just not willing to stand on your supposed principals.

If you can't see the ridiculous nature of asking for a cost/benefit analysis on the subject of torture, simply to provide you with an answer that meets your approval, that's your problem.

It's also a perfect example of why it's impossible to conduct any sort of rational discussion with you.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 08:52

If you can't see the ridiculous nature of asking for a cost/benefit analysis on the subject of torture, simply to provide you with an answer that meets your approval, that's your problem.

Except I didn't.

Re-read what was written.

The point was to paint you into a corner whereby two of your beliefs that you held where at odds with each other and forcing you to choose a side. You declined, you refused to stand on either Principle. Thus showing that you have no actual principles.

The question posed was an absolutist one.

When you declined to actually answer the question I ridiculed you and said that you could have answered the question in the form of a cost/benefit.

i.e. if a few rogue officers give a couple of known thugs a couple of love taps whilst in custody - it's technically torture - but it's not exactly justification to invade the country, kill thousands of people (Military and Civillian alike) in order to re-architect the entire society.

Which is one possible way you could attempt to reconcile your two contradictory positions, by adhering to a higher principle of wanting the least amount of suffering possible. There are other possible ways to answer as well that would reconcile your two statements.

But.
You.
Didn't.

It's just same scenario as when I asked you (in relation to Rwanda) to define a scenario where lethal force is justified knowing that civilians will be hurt and killed whilst doing it - you could not. That's when I called you a pacifist who refuses to acknowledge that you are.

It's clear from this (and other interactions) your highest principle is that you don't want to get your hands dirty and are happy to stand idly by whilst terrible things are happening to others.

I just wish you'd be honest with yourself.

It's also a perfect example of why it's impossible to conduct any sort of rational discussion with you.

Funny how you say that after I forced you into a no-win situation. Sour Grapes don't make good wine ;)

Katman

10th January 2020, 08:55

Except I didn't.

Except you did.

Right here.

The funniest part is that you could answer it in such a manner qualifying the amount and degree of torture going on vs the potential amount of death and destruction that would be caused by going in.

At least such a cost/benefit analysis would be honest.

Katman

10th January 2020, 09:13

That's when I called you a pacifist who refuses to acknowledge that you are.

I'm quite happy to identify as a pacifist.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 09:14

Except you did.

Right here.

No. Try again and re-read.

That was not the question, that was a potential answer.

2 very distinct and separate concepts.

The Question posed was deliberately absolutist.

Katman

10th January 2020, 09:27

The Question posed was deliberately absolutist.

If that's another way of saying deliberately retarded, then I agree wholeheartedly.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 09:41

I'm quite happy to identify as a pacifist.

reaaaaaaalllly.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131119907#post1131119907

so I wouldn't call myself a pacifist per se.

You want to try this again?

This is the problem with not sticking to your principles. People like me remember things you said over a year ago that contradict things you say now.

Katman

10th January 2020, 09:54

reaaaaaaalllly.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178017-The-American-(USA)-2016-presidential-elections-thread?p=1131119907#post1131119907

You want to try this again?

This is the problem with not sticking to your principles. People like me remember things you said over a year ago that contradict things you say now.

Well the 'per se' part of my post qualifies the statement somewhat.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 09:57

Well the 'per se' part of my post qualifies the statement somewhat.

Well, would you call yourself a Pacifist or not?

In one you are saying 'not really' and in the other you are saying you'd be happy to.

you seem to have great trouble picking something and sticking to it....

pritch

10th January 2020, 09:59

You two should get a room.

Katman

10th January 2020, 10:04

Well, would you call yourself a Pacifist or not?

In one you are saying 'not really' and in the other you are saying you'd be happy to.

you seem to have great trouble picking something and sticking to it....

I have an interest in New Zealand's involvement in past warfare and I'm happy to identify as a pacifist.

Make of that what you will.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 10:16

I'm happy to identify as a pacifist.

Make of that what you will.

Indeed - you would stand idly by with the means and opportunity to help someone, but would refrain to do so on fear of someone else getting hurt.

Katman

10th January 2020, 10:18

Indeed - you would stand idly by with the means and opportunity to help someone, but would refrain to do so on fear of someone else getting hurt.

That is certainly not the definition of a pacifist.

The fact that you seem to think it is is a clear indication of the neurological disorder you suffer from.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 10:28

That is certainly not the definition of a pacifist.

The fact that you seem to think it is is a clear indication of the neurological disorder you suffer from.

It's not the Definition, but it IS the ultimate end result.

However, if this troubles you - I'll ask again:

Outline what it would take for you to agree with a military action that results in civilian deaths?

or

Does torture justify invading and taking over the entire societal structure of that country to ensure that Torture doesn't happen?

These are the same moral dilemma which you refuse to contend with and resolve.

Katman

10th January 2020, 10:33

It's not the Definition, but it IS the ultimate end result.

Really?

I think you'll find that there have been a great many number of pacifists who have placed themselves in positions of grave personal danger in order to save someone else's life.

However, if this troubles you - I'll ask again:

It doesn't trouble me.

But it sure as fuck sounds like it troubles you.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 10:42

Really?

I think you'll find that there have been a great many number pacifists who have placed themselves in positions of grave personal danger in order to save someone else's life.

I'm sure there are, however - that was not my point of contention, was it?

You can stand in the firing line, for all the good it will do you and the person you are 'trying' to save - but that doesn't stop them shooting at you, does it?

And whilst there are some people that will see a selfless intervention and be inspired to hold fire, there are also those that will delight, with psychotic glee, at one more target to kill.

It's that last part where pacifism ultimately fails. Some people can only be stopped by force.

It doesn't trouble me.

But it sure as fuck sounds like it troubles you.

It should, because your two stances are mutually exclusive, thus making you a hypocrite.

pritch

10th January 2020, 11:43

In case you wondered if Trump just might have included some porkies in his Iran speech?

Here they are. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlitSLSdVLQ

Katman

10th January 2020, 12:24

It's that last part where pacifism ultimately fails. Some people can only be stopped by force.

You seem confused about this whole pacifism deal.

If you think I would stand there and not fight back if someone attacked me then you're considerably more clueless than I've ever given you credit for.

sugilite

10th January 2020, 12:47

You two should get a room.
I'm waiting to find out what percentage of torture is acceptable. I'm going with 3.3333% recurring. Half evil seems a good compromise. :innocent:

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 13:01

You seem confused about this whole pacifism deal.

If you think I would stand there and not fight back if someone attacked me then you're considerably more clueless than I've ever given you credit for.

You seem to have left your reading glasses elsewhere:

Indeed - you would stand idly by with the means and opportunity to help someone, but would refrain to do so on fear of someone else getting hurt.

It's not about you, it's about whether you'd intervene for a 3rd party. Do try and keep up.

Now, I suspect that whilst you've changed your tune about saying your a Pacifist.

I don't think you are on an interpersonal level, if you saw say, somebody beating their missus, given your character, I'm suspecting that you'd intervene, and more importantly with force if necessary.

The question is where does it scale to, it's one to which you won't answer.

Partly because you probably can't bring yourself to admit it (least of all to me or to yourself), Partly because I don't think that's your fundamental issue - I think the problem is that for any action you don't have access to all the information and so cannot trust that any action taken is not of sufficient moral purity to meet your standards, especially when invariably there is someone who is going to gain to whom you think they shouldn't.

And there is another way you could answer either challenge I put to you whilst maintaining both your contradictory viewpoints.

sugilite

10th January 2020, 13:16

You could, however there is enough circumstantial evidence to say otherwise. How does a child go about acquiring significant media connections, awfully convenient when her parents run in the same circles and said circles has a definitive political bias in favour of said cause.
Social media can be very powerful - influencial teachers etc... Is there a conclusive verified report listing her parents circles and definitive political stances?

Whilst it is a point well made and well taken (and I am sure that when Puberty comes, I will laugh at this along with you) - And a genuine Congrats on your children's accomplishments - I'd like you to consider this.

I'm Stubborn, Argumentative, Dyspraxic, bad with social cues and determined. Further consider the force of a Woman that can put up with someone like that and consider the level of resilience, fortitude etc. that she must have.

How exactly do you think our Children have turned out? I'll give you a clue: Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V...

I'm not sure the age of your children, and for sure they will all be different. Things I noticed with 3 of my 4 - to the age of about 12-13 - Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V. 6 Months following aforementioned age - Ctrl X - closely followed by short bursts of Ctl+Z, then followed by long periods of Ctrl+Alt+Z, Ctrl+Alt+Z, Ctrl+Alt+Z, Ctrl+Alt+Z, Then into their late teens and early 20's a judicial amount of reintroduced Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. The resulting code is very much to their own flavor with a few tipping of caps towards parents - if we are fortunate :yes:

Uncomfortable/against it - regardless of the word choice - my opinion is that their unwillingness to tell their Daughter 'STFU you know nothing since you've not even finished school, never had to work to support yourself and have never had to live in the real world' tells me just how uncomfortable they weren't.
There is a very real possible angle of dealing with Asperger's that myself, and possibly you too, could not begin to fathom. Walk 20 miles in another persons shoes yadda, yadda.

Katman

10th January 2020, 13:25

It's not about you, it's about whether you'd intervene for a 3rd party. Do try and keep up.

And as I pointed out, a very great many pacifists have placed themselves in situations of very grave danger to intervene for a 3rd party.

sugilite

10th January 2020, 13:32

Correct, it's that last part that where he and I differ. Which of the two factors do you think is more likely to increase the scale of conflict:

1: Israel
2: Increase in population coupled with Modern transport and Armaments.

If you are choosing option 1, you have to ignore the history of Armed Conflict in the last ~150 years and downplay the pre-existing issues in the Middle East.

To my mind, clearly both factors are very much at play. As to a possible percentage to which factor plays what part has such a dizzying amount of possibilities, variances and scenarios depending on incalculable amount of perspectives tends to void any possible accurate answer.
I will admit to being perplexed as to why you feel choosing option one as being more dominant, has to have one ignoring the last 150 years etc - HUH? :eek5:

New Dimension? Sure. But not one that overrides the problems that existed prior to Israels creation. However I agree with you entirely that nomadic Tribal groups the world over regularly engaged in inter-tribal warfare and practices that today we would refer to as Genocide.

The problem is that from an English/European point of view most of that stopped after the Roman occupation, although you could argue that until Alfred the Great, inter-kingdom warfare in England was still a thing. That however was over 1,000 years ago. Whereas Saddam's campaign against the Kurds was within living memory. Iran, the Kuds, ISIS etc. all are acting in a manner that is consistent with what we would call 'Tribal Warfare', including the murdering of entire families who 'helped the enemy'

Sure - Christians have been shitty, no disagreement from me. The Crusades, the Inquisition. However, for all the ills and umbridges I have with Christianity - it eventually ended the Slave Trade (something that the Middle East were and some argue still very much are in love with), created Human Rights - those aren't small things. I'll leave it to you as to whether you think that those (and other things) act as a counterweight to the various shitty things they have done. The one point remains though - these are not things that occur in Islam or Islamic countries unless they have adopted them from an outside source.

When was the last time that an inter-england conflict happened in a manner like what we are seeing? Maybe the War of the Roses (1400s) and maybe the Civil war (1600s) - that's about it.

Furthermore - if you think the umbridge is with Johnny Foreigner - look at how the Sikh community has integrated into Britain, same with the Hindus (and even they have same rather bloody histories) - if anything the current intelligentsia is highly critical of anything to do with England or Englishnes and yet despite this virulent hatred and attempt to portray any event in the most damning light - Little Ol' England comes out as the least smelly shit in the manure pile.

I was specifying a much wider range of the World. Two examples of a massive selection available. The laying to waste of the native American tribes by Spain and subsequent other nations. I.e distribution of diseased blankets etc. Both France and England going across the pacific knowing full well the disease they were spreading was decimating populations - rather convenient to their causes. I have not got the time to get into nitty gritty (hence my late replies). Just giving two basic examples of shitty human behaviors occurring in different areas of the World in recent-ish history outside of the dastardly middle east.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 13:40

And as I pointed out, a very great many pacifists have placed themselves in situations of very grave danger to intervene for a 3rd party.

But not kill.

You keep omitting that part, which is the relevant part.

Katman

10th January 2020, 13:49

But not kill.

You keep omitting that part, which is the relevant part.

I'm sure I could bring myself to kill another person given the right circumstances.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 13:59

Social media can be very powerful - influencial teachers etc... Is there a conclusive verified report listing her parents circles and definitive political stances?

http://www.camelotdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/GretaThunberg_FreudsMafiaDotCom.jpg

I should acknowledge the source I'm using there isn't exactly unbiased, however I think the picture illustrates (heh) the point I'm making. As for her Parents circles - I think her Mother is/was an Opera Singer, which is definitely in the milieu of the Left Wing/Arts/Performers and given the status (similar to an Actor) they have contacts that us mere mortals don't.

I'll accept there is a fair amount of inference, but given things that are definite (their support of Antifa as above for example) that confirms their political stances, the rest is reasonable to deduce given their relative status, political beliefs and industry.

I'm not sure the age of your children, and for sure they will all be different. Things I noticed with 3 of my 4 - to the age of about 12-13 - Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V. 6 Months following aforementioned age - Ctrl X - closely followed by short bursts of Ctl+Z, then followed by long periods of Ctrl+Alt+Z, Ctrl+Alt+Z, Ctrl+Alt+Z, Ctrl+Alt+Z, Then into their late teens and early 20's a judicial amount of reintroduced Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V. The resulting code is very much to their own flavor with a few tipping of caps towards parents - if we are fortunate :yes:

At the moment, anyway - they are literally a carbon copy of me - which means all of my worst habits they have. Good thing I've got a few more years of being stubbon on them.

There is a very real possible angle of dealing with Asperger's that myself, and possibly you too, could not begin to fathom. Walk 20 miles in another persons shoes yadda, yadda.

Given the type of IT I do, It's borderline a job requirement to have some form of Neural Atypical disorder, there's at least 3-4 people I work with who are on some form of Spectrum. Great people, brilliant at their jobs, can be a right pain to deal with (sometimes) in a way that other people aren't a pain to deal with - but we generally get on - so I'm not sure if you mean personally dealing with as in having the condition or you mean dealing with it as in helping someone who has the condition.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 14:00

I'm sure I could bring myself to kill another person given the right circumstances.

And what is the right circumstances?

Then do those circumstances extend to the State and to the international level?

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 14:12

To my mind, clearly both factors are very much at play. As to a possible percentage to which factor plays what part has such a dizzying amount of possibilities, variances and scenarios depending on incalculable amount of perspectives tends to void any possible accurate answer.
I will admit to being perplexed as to why you feel choosing option one as being more dominant, has to have one ignoring the last 150 years etc - HUH? :eek5:

Whilst a bit harsh - the point was that all conflicts from about the last 150 years have experienced a massive upsurge in lethality and scale. If you apply the same sort of increases we saw in the west (and you can omit WW1 and WW2 as outliers) to the Middle East, you arrive at a Scale of conflict that is mostly similar to what we see now.

If you think that Israel is the most important factor, you have to omit the increases of scale that have occurred due solely to the factors I listed.

I was specifying a much wider range of the World. Two examples of a massive selection available. The laying to waste of the native American tribes by Spain and subsequent other nations. I.e distribution of diseased blankets etc. Both France and England going across the pacific knowing full well the disease they were spreading was decimating populations - rather convenient to their causes. I have not got the time to get into nitty gritty (hence my late replies). Just giving two basic examples of shitty human behaviors occurring in different areas of the World in recent-ish history outside of the dastardly middle east.

Shitty yes, although I think there is a stretch with the disease thing - I'm not sure that Medical science was sufficiently understood (at the time) to know all the ramifications of their actions that would be required to make some of those statements.

However - Yes, the Colonial period definitely had it's fair share of atrocities, so fair point there.

Katman

10th January 2020, 14:26

And what is the right circumstances?

And that's what is eating away at you.

You're trying to pin me down to a hard and fast statement that you can then try to dissect - and I'm not playing the game.

As sugilite pointed out, there are countless factors that need to be taken into consideration.

Your problem is that your disorder allows you to only see things in black and white.

husaberg

10th January 2020, 14:32

eating away at you.
You're trying to pin me down to a hard and fast
you to only see things in black and white.
Sound more like 50 shades of GRAY
If you had a coherent argument, you wouldn't need to avoid straight answers.

Katman

10th January 2020, 14:37

Sound more like 50 shades of GRAY
If you had a coherent argument, you wouldn't need to avoid straight answers.

..........

what is totally predictable is you following me around and trolling.

husaberg

10th January 2020, 14:44

..........

One swallow doesnt make a spring now does it.
Should i list the number of obvious trolls post you have posted or the a list of questions you refuse to answer?

pritch

10th January 2020, 14:46

I think you'll find that there have been a great many number of pacifists who have placed themselves in positions of grave personal danger in order to save someone else's life.

"We Will Not Cease" by Archibald K Baxter, details how a group of WW1 conscientious objectors were taken from prison and put on a ship to Europe to fight.

The members of the group held on to their beliefs, despite whatever punishment/inducements could be devised, for varying amounts of time but Baxter alone held on until the end. In his case the end was him in a mental institution.

The methods used to induce these guys to take up arms were inhumane. The word 'torture' is an appropriate description, being tied standing to the barbed wire surrounding an ammunition dump during an artillery barrage was just one instance.

The book may be out of print but you should be able to get it through the library inter loan service if anyone is interested. No, you can't have mine.

TheDemonLord

10th January 2020, 15:00

And that's what is eating away at you.

You're trying to pin me down to a hard and fast statement that you can then try to dissect - and I'm not playing the game.

As sugilite pointed out, there are countless factors that need to be taken into consideration.

Your problem is that your disorder allows you to only see things in black and white.

I've given you multiple outs, where you could have given a nuanced answer - yet at each turn you refuse.

It's not that you don't want to play the game, it's because you can't.

Then, you make these grand faux-moral statements about the Political issue du jour, but never with any acknowledgement of things that align with your supposed ideals, in fact sometimes even contradicting your previous statements.

You say you are very much against Torture: The US just killed someone who was influential in setting up teams that did just that.

(here comes the kicker)

Even if you take umbrage with the method used, the way the US did it, the fact it was the US that did it or the fact you think there is an ulterior motive - you refuse to weigh the action taken in line with your self-confessed stance of opposing Torture.

Same with the comments earlier in the thread about Rwanda and when might it be applicable to take Military action to stop a developing incident knowing that civilians would be hurt and killed in the action - you cannot do it.

This is not to say that such arguments or factors should be taken lightly, nor is it to say that each scenario has the same variables that can be measured, weighed and accounted for. It is only to say that Yes - there are some times when it is right to act, knowing that to do so will mean innocent loss of life.

Instead all we ever get is 'America Bad, Israel Bad' - or perhaps to put it another way: I disagreed with the second Iraq war, I think the American Military were short-sighted in their goals, I think the Political establishment didn't have the will to properly rebuild Iraq etc. etc. But I'm still glad Saddamn is Dead.

THAT is 'what is eating me'.

sugilite

10th January 2020, 15:25

If you think that Israel is the most important factor, you have to omit the increases of scale that have occurred due solely to the factors I listed.
Did you ever watch a dogs show back in the day? If so, think of me as that bloody stroppy belligerent sheep that simply refused to go into that pen the farmer had so carefully crafted. ;)

Shitty yes, although I think there is a stretch with the disease thing - I'm not sure that Medical science was sufficiently understood (at the time) to know all the ramifications of their actions that would be required to make some of those statements.

However - Yes, the Colonial period definitely had it's fair share of atrocities, so fair point there.
Hmmm, "Hey Rogor, I say old chap, have you noticed how 100's of the natives turn their toes up just after we arrive?". <_<

Katman

10th January 2020, 15:40

Instead all we ever get is 'America Bad, Israel Bad' - or perhaps to put it another way: I disagreed with the second Iraq war, I think the American Military were short-sighted in their goals, I think the Political establishment didn't have the will to properly rebuild Iraq etc. etc. But I'm still glad Saddamn is Dead.

You forgot to add, they had no fucking right or legitimate justification to invade the country in the first place.

jasonu

10th January 2020, 16:57

One swallow doesnt make a spring now does it.
Should i list the number of obvious trolls post you have posted or the a list of questions you refuse to answer?

or you could just stick to the ESE thread with all your little friends.

MaxPenguin

10th January 2020, 18:47

or you could just stick to the ESE thread with all your little friends.

Why subject them to his shit?

jasonu

11th January 2020, 03:12

Why subject them to his shit?

They all love him there. It's like a great big jerk circle for him.

pritch

11th January 2020, 06:29

Commiserations are due Austingtir. The latest investigation into Hillary Clinton has come up blank. No uranium sales, nothing.

Will he learn anything from this experience? Will he become more discerning in the drivel he chooses to believe?

Sadly that’s very unlikely.

oldrider

11th January 2020, 12:23

Israelis don't want to be America's pawns in the Middle East any longer. We've suffered enough? :innocent: https://twitter.com/Independent/status/1215568738059194368 - :crybaby:

The eternal "Victim" :whistle:

husaberg

11th January 2020, 13:10

- :crybaby:

The eternal "Victim" :whistle:

Oddly it's you are the one always claiming to be the victim of the Evil jew conspiracy against you..........

I guess its a co-incidence that one of Geobels propaganda films was called the eternal Jew..........
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/EwigerJudeFilm.jpghttps://collections.ushmm.org/iiif-b/assets/710823

oldrider

11th January 2020, 15:48

Feel better now do we? - :rofl:

oldrider

11th January 2020, 16:06

US Imposes Sanctions On Virtually Entire Iranian Economy:- :rolleyes: - https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/we-want-iran-behave-normal-nation-us-imposes-sanctions-virtually-entire-iran-economy - Just like they did to Japan to force them into WW2? :msn-wink:

America is a normal Nation? - Give me strength! :bs:

Murray

11th January 2020, 18:54

oldrider

11th January 2020, 19:24

A lot of things have changed in 70 plus years

True!

This is an interesting clip about possibilities due to some of the recent technological/political changes:- https://www.facebook.com/trunews/videos/763450627394746/ - :corn: - Election 2020?

Gotta make it start and turn on the sound (apparently)

Better link:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3vnrixxJs

sugilite

11th January 2020, 23:25

Yep, Barr needs to get the boot.
https://amp.businessinsider.com/nyc-bar-association-asks-congress-investigate-william-barr-2020-1

TheDemonLord

12th January 2020, 05:21

Did you ever watch a dogs show back in the day? If so, think of me as that bloody stroppy belligerent sheep that simply refused to go into that pen the farmer had so carefully crafted. ;)

Stroppy sheep became Delicious Dinner...

Hmmm, "Hey Rogor, I say old chap, have you noticed how 100's of the natives turn their toes up just after we arrive?". <_<

There is definitely an empirical argument there, however remember that 'Back in Blighty' the death rate wasn't much better. I think in the 1800s the prevailing theory was that 'bad air' (Miasma) caused disease, microbiology didn't happen until late in the century.

I'm not saying it makes them not culpable in some manner, only that the notion they knew they were spreading disease is a little bit of a stretch

TheDemonLord

12th January 2020, 05:26

You forgot to add, they had no fucking right or legitimate justification to invade the country in the first place.

And?

Are you saying that sovereignty is grounds enough to not intervene to stop Torture?

Because that contradicts your earlier statements - unless you want to articulate what a threshold might be where intervention is justified...

jasonu

12th January 2020, 06:04

Hell just froze over. Iran admits making a mistake.
https://ktvz.com/news/2020/01/10/iran-admits-to-shooting-down-ukrainian-passenger-plane-unintentionally-report-says/

Katman

12th January 2020, 07:38

Are you saying that sovereignty is grounds enough to not intervene to stop Torture?

But they're not stopping torture if they continue to hand over prisoners to local authorities in the knowledge that they'll be tortured.

oldrider

12th January 2020, 08:35

Hell just froze over. Iran admits making a mistake.
https://ktvz.com/news/2020/01/10/iran-admits-to-shooting-down-ukrainian-passenger-plane-unintentionally-report-says/

Seems there were a lot of miscalculations(?) involved? - Not to worry they were only people that got in the way of stupidity. - Unbelievable? :facepalm:

Trump reportedly told associates he killed Qassem Soleimani because he was under pressure from GOP senators before his impeachment trial:-

https://news.yahoo.com/trump-reportedly-told-associates-killed-162634145.html - Yeah right? :weird:

sugilite

12th January 2020, 09:10

I should acknowledge the source I'm using there isn't exactly unbiased, however I think the picture illustrates (heh) the point I'm making. As for her Parents circles - I think her Mother is/was an Opera Singer, which is definitely in the milieu of the Left Wing/Arts/Performers and given the status (similar to an Actor) they have contacts that us mere mortals don't.

I'll accept there is a fair amount of inference, but given things that are definite (their support of Antifa as above for example) that confirms their political stances, the rest is reasonable to deduce given their relative status, political beliefs and industry.
Oprah singing, T-shirts and not a lot else in my opinion does not give anywhere enough evidence to support the near first hand knowledge of their total parenting style/history you were expounding.

At the moment, anyway - they are literally a carbon copy of me - which means all of my worst habits they have. Good thing I've got a few more years of being stubborn on them.
Wait until your passed on stubborn meets teenage hormones - then we will talk :yes:

Given the type of IT I do, It's borderline a job requirement to have some form of Neural Atypical disorder, there's at least 3-4 people I work with who are on some form of Spectrum. Great people, brilliant at their jobs, can be a right pain to deal with (sometimes) in a way that other people aren't a pain to deal with - but we generally get on - so I'm not sure if you mean personally dealing with as in having the condition or you mean dealing with it as in helping someone who has the condition.
Working with them is entirely different from parenting them me thinks.

pritch

12th January 2020, 09:29

But they're not stopping torture if they continue to hand over prisoners to local authorities in the knowledge that they'll be tortured.

Your argument is totally specious. You keep saying that, which may appear superficially reasonable, but is just silly.

To be taken seriously by anybody, possibly even TDL, you need to have an alternative. It's nonsensical to condemn outright the only option.

If you have another solution for dealing with prisoners please let us know. The only two options that come to mind are:
A) to shoot them or,
B) to bring them here.
Both of those options are problematical obviously, although option A would have been used many times in previous conflicts.

If you did some research you'll probably find that handing prisoners to the local authorities is covered in international law which would explain why almost everybody does exactly that.

Katman

12th January 2020, 09:36

Your argument is totally specious. You keep saying that, which may appear superficially reasonable, but is just silly.

No, what is specious is trying to justify the invasion of a country due to the fact that it's ruler allows torture - but then allowing the torture to continue unabated after the invasion.

sugilite

12th January 2020, 09:40

Stroppy sheep became Delicious Dinner...
Hahaha, yes, I talked to farmers who did lots of sheep trialing, and yes, they did exactly that to them once the trial had ended :lol:
However, as I'm sure you are aware, I'm alluding to the fact that you have a strong tendency to misquote/twist peoples words when they do not suit your exact narrative, then spend a quite incredible amount of time building little sheep pens, and proceed to do your best to herd "dissenting" forum members into them. :laugh:.

There is definitely an empirical argument there, however remember that 'Back in Blighty' the death rate wasn't much better. I think in the 1800s the prevailing theory was that 'bad air' (Miasma) caused disease, microbiology didn't happen until late in the century.

I'm not saying it makes them not culpable in some manner, only that the notion they knew they were spreading disease is a little bit of a stretch
Oh, yes, I'm quite sure that leaving so many dead on multiple islands that there were not enough living left to bury the dead was pretty much a snapshot of equal mortality rates in old 'Back in Blighty'. (possibly queue a reference citing black plauges and so on here - just doing a bit of pre-empting myself hehehe :innocent:).
I got that information out a off a multi cited study on that exact subject. I would even post the link, but wait - stand back! I spotted a miniscul handful of political group T- shirt/opera singer tidbits in the report! 99% of it supports what I was saying. 1% does not, and I know full well, you will seize upon that 1% and built one of those sheep pens and chase me around trying to force me into it in the same way you have been chasing Katman for seemingly several hundred posts now. :pinch:
Deducing from my long and grizzled "Dogs Show" experience - to my observation, that particular sheep is still looking pretty darn sprightly, where upon, both your dogs have died and were buried from sheer exhaustion quite some time ago, and you have long ago run out of resources to get that pen closed - but you carry on, which in it's own small way is to be admired ;)

mashman

12th January 2020, 09:51

Your argument is totally specious. You keep saying that, which may appear superficially reasonable, but is just silly.

To be taken seriously by anybody, possibly even TDL, you need to have an alternative. It's nonsensical to condemn outright the only option.

If you did some research you'll probably find that handing prisoners to the local authorities is covered in international law which would explain why almost everybody does exactly that.

Specious? What? Stating that one country knows that another will torture prisoners when handed over? It's a fact. That everyone does it/has done it/somehow sees it as acceptable does not make it specious... in fact it lumps it in with the definition of fucked up. That tdl is mentioned in with such thinking is no surprise, but pritchybabes, you gotta be cage rattlin'.

What happened to prisoners that went home in the old days? Coz they did you know. In fact they went home and were allowed to walk free. Rightly or wrongly they fought in a war, but they were still left to walk the streets with the racial bullshit that followed. What the fuck has happened where we can claim that someone who went to war, rightly or wrongly, should now be subject to incarceration by governments that started the wars in the first place, where in the past the human was allowed to return?

Pointing the finger at Katman? From my perspective you're spitting in the face of why people go to war, rightly or wrongly. No war crime. Let 'em walk! War crime, then yeah, bullet would certainly exist on the scale of crimes committed I would imagine... but hey, it is not a crime to join a war.

pritch

12th January 2020, 10:55

From my perspective you're spitting in the face of why people go to war, rightly or wrongly. No war crime. Let 'em walk! War crime, then yeah, bullet would certainly exist on the scale of crimes committed I would imagine... but hey, it is not a crime to join a war.

How you get any of that from what I wrote is beyond me.

Katman has repeatedly said that handing prisoners to the local authority is wrong if torture is the likely outcome.

I just want to see his alternative plan because I don't believe he has one in which case his argument is nonsense. He also wrote that NZ troops were "guilty" and, in the absence of any evidence, that was offensive rubbish.

Prisoners of war were covered under the Geneva Conventions and were to be repatriated at the cessation of hostilities. Terrorists, insurgents, etc, are not so covered, apart from which many do not have somewhere else to be repatriated to. Katman has yet to reveal his plan. I'm not holding my breath

Katman

12th January 2020, 11:07

I'm not holding my breath

Please do.

pritch

12th January 2020, 11:39

No, what is specious is trying to justify the invasion of a country due to the fact that it's ruler allows torture - but then allowing the torture to continue unabated after the invasion.

True, that too would be nonsense. Although that does not limit any other other nonsense including, so far, yours.

mashman

12th January 2020, 11:45

Prisoners of war were covered under the Geneva Conventions and were to be repatriated at the cessation of hostilities. Terrorists, insurgents, etc, are not so covered, apart from which many do not have somewhere else to be repatriated to.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Pathetic. Bush and Blair fabricated a war, absolutely 100% proven fact, yet they're walking around freely. Some dude from NZ goes to in another manufactured war and wants to return home and can't, because hell be thrown in jail. There was no terrorism. It was out and out aggression by the West to try to oust Assad that expanded a so called civilian war to encompass many nations. Allowing "them" to call it terrorism allows "them" to get away with everything, because it is "they" who get to decide who are the terrorists and "they" who get to decide who are the aggressors.

Legality v's morality. You're right, that probably is beyond you :bleh:

MaxPenguin

12th January 2020, 12:11

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Pathetic. Bush and Blair fabricated a war, absolutely 100% proven fact, yet they're walking around freely. Some dude from NZ goes to in another manufactured war and wants to return home and can't, because hell be thrown in jail. There was no terrorism. It was out and out aggression by the West to try to oust Assad that expanded a so called civilian war to encompass many nations. Allowing "them" to call it terrorism allows "them" to get away with everything, because it is "they" who get to decide who are the terrorists and "they" who get to decide who are the aggressors.

Legality v's morality. You're right, that probably is beyond you :bleh:

True words, the USA are the biggest terrorists on the planet
The body count is only one more
between a drone strike and a suicide bomber.

pritch

12th January 2020, 13:29

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Pathetic. Bush and Blair fabricated a war, absolutely 100% proven fact, yet they're walking around freely. Some dude from NZ goes to in another manufactured war and wants to return home and can't, because hell be thrown in jail. There was no terrorism. It was out and out aggression by the West to try to oust Assad that expanded a so called civilian war to encompass many nations. Allowing "them" to call it terrorism allows "them" to get away with everything, because it is "they" who get to decide who are the terrorists and "they" who get to decide who are the aggressors.

Legality v's morality. You're right, that probably is beyond you :bleh:

I have no idea who you are arguing with, but it isn't me. God knows what goes on between your ears, but I'm not interested. You too can go on ignore. You've set the record for the shortest time.