The firearm thread

[sAsLEX]

The rest......



Day 3: Nearly over!



The final day is only a half-day of shooting but the pressure does not ease off. There were three different COF’s - first a one round, 168m shot at a hens egg - not too hard but then factor in a 10 second time-frame and a 15 degree downhill angle, plus a gusting 5 – 10 mph quarter value wind and it makes the whole thing considerably more difficult.



The second COF was my favourite out of the whole event. The famous SOG knives are one of the sponsors of the event and donate a stack of their throwing-knives for this stage. The blades are knocked into a block of wood with the blade-edge facing towards the shooter and a piece of white paper is stapled to a board behind the knife. At a distance of 80m and within 30 seconds, the shooter must fire one round at the blade-edge and strike it perfectly so as to split the bullet into two haves and show separate impacts on the paper behind. Who the hell thought up this one up? Until I saw it done, I would of said this was nearly impossible but the skill level of the shooters attending meant that around 30% of the field made the shot – outstanding! Don’t try this at home guys as a bad ricochet could end up anywhere.



The final COF was another good one. The targets were a small, medium and full-size clay-pigeons at distances of 136m, 246m and 364m. With the rifle placed down on the firing line and the shooter 10m further behind, on the command run forward and with one round engage one target, run back for the next round and engage the second target and so on, all to be completed within 50 seconds. Once again, speed with pin-point accuracy was the only way to gather points.



The end of shooting meant a big sigh of relief. This was without doubt the toughest competition I’ve ever shot in with some of the smallest targets I’ve ever seen but as the organisers said, it was designed to decide who was ‘The Best of the Best’

The evening was a very grand affair held in the centre of the beautiful city of Budapest on the banks of the Danube with some excellent catering and of course the hard-won trophies were presented. The competition is split into two halves - police and military. The result of the police individual event was 1st Russia 2nd Ukraine and 3rd Macedonia and the team scores were same. The military individual results were 1st Russia, 2nd Russia and 3rd United Kingdom and the teams were 1st Russia, 2nd Hungary and 3rd Czech. rep.



As I mentioned previously in other articles, I’ve shot against the Russian and Ukraine guys before and the standard of all aspects of their shooting is amazing. They don’t have the best kit in the world but the key to their success is a simple one - practice, practice and then more practice! There is a lesson there that we all would do well to heed. For every round I’ve shot this year either in practice or in competition, I’ve also shot ten dry-fires and it's paid off.



Kit Review



Before I close I would like to say a big thanks to all involved in getting the rifle together this year without which none of the comps would have been possible and for all those who have asked about my ‘Green & Mean’ rifle, here is the spec.



Action - Surgeon (probably the best tactical action on the market) with built-in Picatinny scope-rail and recoil lug. It also represent great value for money.



Barrel - Kreiger (no explanation necessary!)



Moderator - Stealth sound moderators from ‘ The Whole Shooting Match Ltd’ this is the best mod. I’ve had so far. It’s designed to be stripped and cleaned, no difference on shift in impact and lighter than most other over-barrel designs.



Stock - McMillan A5 Tactical (again no explanation necessary - the best)



Scope -US Optics SN3 5x25 Tpal - as I said above, just a rock solid scope, dependable and no dramas. Thanks to John Williams and all the guys at USO for making the ret. I designed for the scope and getting it put Together and out to me in time for the deadline.



And finally, a big thanks to Vince for putting it all together for me with a weeks notice!!



Enjoy and be safe

Rob



PS - Don’t try to reproduce any of courses of fire detailed here as they may result in injury or death

[sAsLEX]

Smoe neat discussion here on some different cartridges following on from our loading demo the other day

http://www.freewebs.com/precisionrifle/accuracycartridges.htm

[jono035]

Interesting stuff Alex...

Chris: Fired the first of those 9mm rounds tonight and they're a bit hotter than the factory American Eagle stuff I usually shoot, that's for sure! Fired the first string of 5 and got a few comments about the fiery muzzle blast. Had another guy there recognise it as ammo from Serious Shooters? Either way, good stuff, fun to shoot and I put about half in the black at 25m so all good. Still have most of the bag, will keep whittling through it alternately with my normal ammo.

Thanks again!

Also got to have a play with a guys Uberti Cattleman in .357... Beautiful pistol to fire and feels great in the hand, nice tight action and the rear sight is just a small groove cut into the top strap, very understated. Talked to a guy who had recently sold his S&W 629 (bugger...) and is currently trying to replace it with a Taurus Raging Bull in .44 magnum, so may have to have a try with both now to see which I prefer!

[sAsLEX]

<img src=http://www.cci-ammunition.com/images/ballistic_images/22_LR_SS_0039.jpg>

Perfect for those pesky spiders!

[Indiana_Jones]

lol wicked.

-Indy

[jono035]

Perfect for those pesky spiders!

There was a guy playing with a box of those at the range a few months back, pretty random looking. Apparently those in a .22 pistol are good as snake-protection...

[KREWZR]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=105316

[Indiana_Jones]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=105316

Done :niceone:

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Reloaders are the nicest people on the face of the earth. They share many common quality traits. They hate waste and cannot bear to throw away a perfectly good cartridge case simply because it's empty. Besides, it's impolite to leave a mess for someone else to pick up. They enjoy working with their hands, like to shoot, love the great outdoors and expect that what they buy will work as advertised. An unusual amount of reloaders are doctors, lawyers and business people. Persons reload because they like it, not because they can't afford to buy factory ammunition. I am proud to be a member of the fraternity

[Indiana_Jones]

"13/08/09
MSSA Changes - Advertising Complaint
In response to Police spending public money on misleading advertising in regard to their unqualified opinion concerning their preferred interpretation of a military pattern free standing pistol grip, The National Shooters Association has lodged a formal complaint with the Independent Police Conduct Authority (IPCA). The NSA believes that spending public money on advertising an interpretation that Police have been told, by the High Court, has no legal standing, demonstrates arrogant contempt for the judicial process, the authority of the High Court and the obligation for Police to exercise a duty of care with entrusted public money.

At this stage the complaint has been filed (12th August 2009). We anticipate a response from the IPCA soon."

-Indy

[Swoop]

MSSA Changes

I did have a laugh when the TV3 news article featured the newly "imagined laws".

I am still waiting for a letter informing me of the changes. They have my address, along with another 350,000 of us.

[KREWZR]

http://nsanz.org.nz/

http://nsanz.org.nz/pages/litigation.html

[The Pastor]

brilliant, the new site looks great, and thats a really good letter of complaint!

[jono035]

brilliant, the new site looks great, and thats a really good letter of complaint!

Yeah, I'm impressed. Also, that letter of complaint is exactly the way to go, don't give em even an inch!

[The Pastor]

SWEET MY RIFLE WILL BE READY NEXT WEEK
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_qeW7-saTs28/SYr7q7SUkyI/AAAAAAAAFog/qi16hI7jp4k/IMG_4725.JPG

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Question for you historians out there. I've recently bought a Long Tom 303 1901
and it's got some form of dial on the fore end. I'm speculating that it increases
pressure on the bedding point of the barrel, but hey, I've been wrong before.
Also, does anyone know a website where I can find what all the stamps on the barrel actually mean ?

[Delerium]

I think its a volley sight.
I have a book with all the markings in it. Post a pic and ill get around to having a look.

[jono035]

SWEET MY RIFLE WILL BE READY NEXT WEEK
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_qeW7-saTs28/SYr7q7SUkyI/AAAAAAAAFog/qi16hI7jp4k/IMG_4725.JPG

Congrats man, sounds like you're itching to have it back...

FrogFeatures: http://www.enfield-stuff.com/tools/notebook/P14_Rem_Volley.htm has a picture of a volley sight, looks pretty much similar.

[scumdog]

I think its a volley sight.
I have a book with all the markings in it. Post a pic and ill get around to having a look.

Wot 'e said.

Used when a whole platoon (or more) was firing at a target a long way away - like a REALLY long way away, not designed for use on an individual target or precission shooting.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Thanks guys, I'll post some more pics. Question- is there any way to track what unit a service rifle was issued to ? As this one is stamped 1901 I'm curious to find out a bit more about it's history.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'm not too sure about this one, All my 1901 Enfield has on it is the NZ army stamp and that's about it. Same with my 1881 (1896 converted to .303) Martini-Henry.

I doubt the army has many records today regarding where each single rifle went to during that period, though I'd like to think I'm wrong.

-Indy

[Swoop]

I had to have a laugh when the Bullshooter arrived today.
On the back postage cover, there is the statement "A proud supporter of COLFO".

The article from John Howett appears as if they are working with the police to bend over the shooting community. How can the police have "mis interpreted the law" since the E-cat licence began?

[jono035]

I had to have a laugh when the Bullshooter arrived today.
On the back postage cover, there is the statement "A proud supporter of COLFO".

The article from John Howett appears as if they are working with the police to bend over the shooting community. How can the police have "mis interpreted the law" since the E-cat licence began?

Hahaha I just got done reading the same thing and being just as disgusted with the attitude.

Pretty convenient that they have been mis-interpreting the law and now apparently have no other option than to follow the new 'correct' interpretation.

How about going 'Oh shit, our interpretation is wrong, yet miraculously people are not being murdered by the hundreds by people using these weapons. Lets get the legislation changed to clarify this."

That and I was pissed off at the fact that in the last bullshooter there were several S&W 686 and 629 revolvers listed when I didn't plan to get one and now, when I do, there are none. Bah, humbug.

[Indiana_Jones]

God created man, Samuel Colt made them equal.

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k4FCVEjPLdk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k4FCVEjPLdk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

I told you that they were accurate.

In 1874 in a place called Adobe Wells , Billy Dixon shot a Nth American Indian from the saddle of his horse at a measured 1500 yards, with a 50-90 Sharps rifle.

In the 1890's it was not uncommon to shoot at distances up to 5 km.

Scores were reported with that new fangled telephone thing.

[sAsLEX]

Scores were reported with that new fangled telephone thing.

Saw a neat long range target where by a large board was placed at say 1500m(EDIT pic below is from 800), with a small piece of electrotrickery attached that measured the vibrations when hit.

You then have a small box with a screen at the shooters position instantly updating the fall of shot so there is no need for a bloody long walk to check, if your spotting scope is not up to it.

<img src=http://www.kammeret.no/bilder/albums/userpics/10430/normal_1000m_bane_m_KME_skive__%281005m%2C_-5_vinkel%29.JPG>

<img src=http://www.kammeret.no/bilder/albums/userpics/10430/normal_800m_6%2C5x55.jpg>

[Wolf]

Damn fine shooting! What are the specs - range, weapon, ammo load etc?

[sAsLEX]

Damn fine shooting! What are the specs - range, weapon, ammo load etc?
Double checked that was from 800m


I'm shooting a 140gr Amax from a 6,5x55 with velocity 805-830 msec (2640-2720 fps) depending on temperature and I've shot a few thousand of these reliably to 1200 meters (1312 yds) allthough the vast majority of my shot is within 800 meters (874 yds).

[-easy--rider-]

im after and air pistol in christchurch. and not a shit one.

[Indiana_Jones]

im after and air pistol in christchurch. and not a shit one.

.177?

.22?

Co2?

Spring?

Single shot?

.......

-Indy

[jono035]

.177?
.22?
Co2?
Spring?
Single shot?
.......

-Indy

And purpose as well? Don't know jack all about em but I've seen some CO2 ones that use some extra gas to make the slide blow backwards as if recoiling. Form over function really but each to their own.

Edit: I'm not even 100% sure he is actually asking a question, seems to be a statement more than anything...

[ManDownUnder]

im after and air pistol in christchurch. and not a shit one.

What for? Happy to advise but seriously - it's like posting "I want a bike and not a shit one!".

More info needed

[ManDownUnder]

Irrespective of the law change or not surrounding the pistol grips and MSSAs... the $200 application fee for an E cat is dropped at the moment.

Why wouldn't I apply for one while it's free - or are there other costs involved?

[The Pastor]

Irrespective of the law change or not surrounding the pistol grips and MSSAs... the $220 application fee for an E cat is dropped at the moment.

Why wouldn't I apply for one while it's free - or are there other costs involved?
you need a $1000 safe thats bolted into the floor/wall

[ManDownUnder]

you need a $1000 safe thats bolted into the floor/wall

Only if I have the firearms to go in it... no?

[Indiana_Jones]

You have to own one of the rifles affected to get the $200 wavied I believe, but as Scott said, you're still out of pocket by about a grand getting the fucking safe.

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

You have to own one of the rifles affected to get the $200 wavied I believe, but as Scott said, you're still out of pocket by about a grand getting the fucking safe.

-Indy

Roger doger - sounds iffy... I'll check it out.

Which reminds me... Sportsways gunshed have a pile of stocks going cheap in their Mt Eden shop. 2nds. slightly dinged and the like... but cheaper than said E cat and $1000 safe.

[Indiana_Jones]

I think I might be leaning towards a black powder rifle for my next toy, whenever that may be....

I for one blame Chris and movies!

-Indy

[jono035]

Only if I have the firearms to go in it... no?

Nope, same as A category. Doesn't matter if you have any firearms or not, you still need the storage facilities if you have the license. They will inspect the safe before they issue the license and maintaining it in is part of the conditions of the license...

[Indiana_Jones]

Nope, same as A category. Doesn't matter if you have any firearms or not, you still need the storage facilities if you have the license. They will inspect the safe before they issue the license and maintaining it in is part of the conditions of the license...

What he said ^^^

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

Nope, same as A category. Doesn't matter if you have any firearms or not, you still need the storage facilities if you have the license. They will inspect the safe before they issue the license and maintaining it in is part of the conditions of the license...

Awwww crap.

Time to get the welder out me thinks...

[Swoop]

Only if I have the firearms to go in it... no?
Cart before the horse. You have to get the security and the licence before you can purchase the firearm, so getting the safe organised first would be a good idea.
Secondly, safes do not cost "a grand" as some here are purporting.
A compliant safe can be made from old (end of useable life) LPG cylinders. Club members have done this previously. The cost is 2x cylinders, a lock and some time with a welder.

Why wouldn't I apply for one while it's free - or are there other costs involved?
Quite true. Apply while it is free.

[The Pastor]

Cart before the horse. You have to get the security and the licence before you can purchase the firearm, so getting the safe organised first would be a good idea.
Secondly, safes do not cost "a grand" as some here are purporting.
A compliant safe can be made from old (end of useable life) LPG cylinders. Club members have done this previously. The cost is 2x cylinders, a lock and some time with a welder.

Quite true. Apply while it is free.
hey now thats a good idea!

but a welder costs more than a grand :P

[jono035]

Cart before the horse. You have to get the security and the licence before you can purchase the firearm, so getting the safe organised first would be a good idea.
Secondly, safes do not cost "a grand" as some here are purporting.
A compliant safe can be made from old (end of useable life) LPG cylinders. Club members have done this previously. The cost is 2x cylinders, a lock and some time with a welder.

Quite true. Apply while it is free.

You're sure this is a way to build a safe to E-category compliance, not A-category (which only really needs a MDF cupboard)?

How thick are the LPG cylinders? Wall thickness on the safe needs to be 6mm from memory. There is also a whole slew of other requirements and the Arms Officer was very clear when I got mine that it had to be compliant in every way and that there were a lot of problems recently with people trying to get endorsements with non-compliant safes bought from various places around NZ.

According to the Central Shooters website the cheapest E-cat safe that is commercially available is $690 (probably only holds a 2-3 rifles), still a lot more than the $200 filing fee (which you could use to simultaneously apply for a pistol endorsement if you were keen).

Edit: RM - Yeah, and the skills required to use it. If you can weld it up yourself to a standard deemed acceptable by the NZ police then sweet as, go for it and good luck! It also seems like 6mm would be an unusually thick wall for an LPG cylinder, most (according to google) appear to be 1.5mm to 3mm.

[Mr Merde]

... (which you could use to simultaneously apply for a pistol endorsement if you were keen....

Since you are already applying why not put in for your C cat licence
Collectors licence then you could keep your fully automatic and short barreled firearms in the same safe.

[jono035]

Since you are already applying why not put in for your C cat licence
Collectors licence then you could keep your fully automatic and short barreled firearms in the same safe.

Yeah, I still need to dig up my endorsement application form and check that because that would be pretty damn cool.

Maybe for the future when I have a bit more money to throw around at toys though!

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, I still need to dig up my endorsement application form and check that because that would be pretty damn cool.

Maybe for the future when I have a bit more money to throw around at toys though!

For a collectors licence you need the same security conditions as a MSSA E cat endorsement.

For the C cat you need to write an essay explaining your particular interest in firearms. Make it broad or the powers will limit you.

$200 on its own or $200 with E cat. Since e cart is free why not try it on and lump the C endorsement with it.

You may get both for nothing.

PLAY THE RULES. CIVIL OBEDIENCE frustrates those who choose to dominate.

[jono035]

You may get both for nothing.

Still need the full size safe and somewhere to put it though!

[sAsLEX]

I do find it interesting that you require a safe in order to have a license.

Do you need a car for a drivers license?

On a firearms in the public image point...... someone told me that tonight's episode of Home and Away had an incident were some boys find some guns, shoot some bottles, they then have a hang/miss fire which discharges after one boy goes forward to clean up the bottles......... or so I was told...... not much seen to night but it sounds like one is hit.

It will be interesting to see how they go on with this story line. I will watch for purely scientific reasons.

[Swoop]

You're sure this is a way to build a safe to E-category compliance, not A-category (which only really needs a MDF cupboard)?

How thick are the LPG cylinders? Wall thickness on the safe needs to be 6mm from memory.
Yes, fully compliant with B/C/E requirements. The wall thickness was a minimum of 6mm and possibly more. Memory is telling me more like 8mm for some reason.
The way that the club member built them, they would be a damn tricky proposition to attempt to break into!

[Wolf]

Still need the full size safe and somewhere to put it though!
And either your own house or a really understanding landlord...

[jono035]

And either your own house or a really understanding landlord...

Well my current landlord was pretty legendary when it came to me mounting the small safe :) don't see any reason why he would object to a larger safe next to it!

I'm more concerned about having to move the bloody thing when I move, they're heavy as hell...


Yes, fully compliant with B/C/E requirements. The wall thickness was a minimum of 6mm and possibly more. Memory is telling me more like 8mm for some reason.
The way that the club member built them, they would be a damn tricky proposition to attempt to break into!

That's some impressively thick walled tank! I had enough trouble trying to drill holes in the bottom of my small safe (with a massive mill-drill nonetheless), let alone make one! Probably still outside the reach of most people I would imagine...

[Wolf]

I'm more concerned about having to move the bloody thing when I move, they're heavy as hell...
My cabinet is heavy enough and it's nowhere near 6mm thick (but it is rather large, could probably hold at least 20 firearms).

[Indiana_Jones]

I see the NSA has got a little mention in the news (http://www.hawkesbaytoday.co.nz/local/news/gun-owners-angry-after-siege-sparks-new-rules/3902985/)

-Indy

[jono035]

I see the NSA has got a little mention in the news (http://www.hawkesbaytoday.co.nz/local/news/gun-owners-angry-after-siege-sparks-new-rules/3902985/)

-Indy

Not exactly the most accurate reporting in the world but good to see anyway. Just wish they had clarified the point that the police were changing their interpretation of the phrase 'military pattern, free-standing pistol grip', not imposing it in the first place.

I'm not 100% sure that this change would have affected any of Molenaar's weapons (ignoring the fact that he had no license so probably wouldn't have cared anyway...)

[Mr Merde]

...probably wouldn't have cared anyway...)

This is exactly what we have to go up against.

Everytime there is an in cident then the governmental powers try to be seen to be doing something.

Because we are predominantly law abiding and keep a low profile we are an easy target.

It can be poinbted out that they have done X,Y, and Z and now life will be safer because those of us that care and obey the rules have had more restrictions.

The criminal doesnt care for these rules. By the very nature of this persons inclination of being a criminal he\she doesnt obey the rules.

You could legislate and restrict life to such a level that the law abiding would have to have permission to take a dump and still the criminal wouldnt care. He\she just wouldnt obey them.

Stupid thing is that in these days a criminal has more rights than us law abiding citizens. As a firearms owner you have given the police the right to enter your home as they feel fit to check on your security. If you were a criminal and they suspected you had firearms they would have to go to court to obtain a search warrant to enter their home etc to look for firearms.

Why is this so?

Because we are all potential psychopaths waiting to go on a rampage.

[jono035]

Has anyone here been using www.gunstuff.co.nz or www.gunriflereload.co.nz?

I found gunstuff a while back but it doesn't seem to have that much stuff on it. gunriflereload seems to have a few more auctions on it from what I can tell. The UI on both is pretty cluttered and odd (maybe I'm just too used to trademe).

There was also a full page colour ad for gunriflereload in the bullshooter (pistol NZ magazine) this month...

[Swoop]

I see the NSA has got a little mention in the news (http://www.hawkesbaytoday.co.nz/local/news/gun-owners-angry-after-siege-sparks-new-rules/3902985/)

-Indy
QUOTE:
Gun owners have been told that if they own a semi-automatic firearm with a ``military pattern, free-standing pistol grip'', it is now considered a military-style semi-automatic firearm.

No shit sherlock.
That law has been around for quite a while now.

We thought the Harold reporting was bad. Hawkesbaytoday appears to have sunk to new depths.

[Mr Merde]

QUOTE:
Gun owners have been told that if they own a semi-automatic firearm with a ``military pattern, free-standing pistol grip'', it is now considered a military-style semi-automatic firearm.

No shit sherlock.
That law has been around for quite a while now.

We thought the Harold reporting was bad. Hawkesbaytoday appears to have sunk to new depths.

This means a lot more than military style. Military pattern is very specific as to materials, dimensions, build method, colour etc. There are actual specifications for Military Pattern

The firearms law actually states Military Pattern not Military style

By this it can be inferred that for a AR15 the A1 and A2 grips are Mititary Pattern and are restricted but any pistol grip that doesnt fit into those specs are of a military style and not prohibited under the Firearms act

Another case of the Police imposing their interpretation of the law and not the actual law.

[sAsLEX]

I note the inside rear cover of the latest NZ Hunter magazine has the Police Poster indicating I am now a criminal.... and that it has the endorsement of the New Zealand Government.

[Mr Merde]

I note the inside rear cover of the latest NZ Hunter magazine has the Police Poster indicating I am now a criminal.... and that it has the endorsement of the New Zealand Government.

Being the law abiding citizen that I know you are I think that you should rapidly descend upon your nearest police office and promptly surrender yourself for prosecution and chastisement.

You obviously cant be trusted with those "weapons of mass hysteria".

I also think that you should report yourself to the shore patrol as obviously you cannot be trusted any further with those weapons supplied to you by the NZDF.

[jono035]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=235814504

Pump-action .22LR... so tempting... Could be a fun little plinker. Problem is I'd need a new gun rack, too!

[Mr Merde]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=235814504

Pump-action .22LR... so tempting... Could be a fun little plinker. Problem is I'd need a new gun rack, too!

I looked at that. Sweet little rifle. Fun to shoot. I have a 1912 version at home. the 1912 doesnt have an exposed hammer.

So far I am the highest bidder on the Uberti 66 .
Been after one for a while now.

I could fix this one up for about $8-9 hundred. Turn it into a nice shooter.

Wouldnt be pretty but none of my guns are.

[Wolf]

Definitely a sweet rifle. The exchange between the seller and saltnpepper was quite interesting to read.

[jono035]

Wouldnt be pretty but none of my guns are.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder anyway.


Definitely a sweet rifle. The exchange between the seller and saltnpepper was quite interesting to read.

Yeah, and if it does happen to be a pre-WW2 one, apparently they're worth a reasonable amount (US$600) so could be quite a bargain.

Personally I'd only be buying it as a fun little plinker but I think a lever would be more fun. If I'm getting a Rossi lever in .44mag then I'd still need a pump gun to complete the set. Decisions, decisions.

[Indiana_Jones]

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http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=236163672

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10591895

According to all the reports this man has knives and a meat cleaver.

The police in their wisdom have now decided to charge him with threatening to kill and using a firearm to resist arrest.

What I want to know is where did this firearm suddenly come from or when did the police start classifying knives as firearms.

Is this an attempt to influence the crime statistics and once again put firearms owners on the defensive?

[The Pastor]

Perhaps, he told the cops on the phone he had a gun

[Indiana_Jones]

Seems a bit silly

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Seems a bit silly

-Indy

This is our esteemed police FORCE. Dont call them silly, they might be offended and get you next time you are carrying a chair leg or a golf club or similar.

[Wolf]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10591895

According to all the reports this man has knives and a meat cleaver.

The police in their wisdom have now decided to charge him with threatening to kill and using a firearm to resist arrest.

What I want to know is where did this firearm suddenly come from or when did the police start classifying knives as firearms.

Is this an attempt to influence the crime statistics and once again put firearms owners on the defensive?


Perhaps, he told the cops on the phone he had a gun
No, silly, they are merely interpreting the definition of "firearm" - "free-standing military-pattern pistol grip" = "can be held with your hand"; "firearm" = "anything that could possibly be used as a weapon".

As the knives can be held in your hand, they'll probably also charge him with illegal possession of an MSSA...

[Indiana_Jones]

Cheers wolf!

It's all so much clearer now!

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-237066257.htm

$700 buy now for a ww2 made Mosin-Nagant

'never been fired.'

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH :laugh:

-Indy

[Wolf]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-237066257.htm

$700 buy now for a ww2 made Mosin-Nagant

'never been fired.'

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH :laugh:

-Indy
If it were a French WWII rifle I could believe it had never been fired - would be a bit wary of how it withstood being dropped, tho...
:devil2:

[Indiana_Jones]

If it were a French WWII rifle I could believe it had never been fired - would be a bit wary of how it withstood being dropped, tho...
:devil2:


<img src="http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/u/R/french_soldierofsurrender.jpg">

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

<img src="http://marylandshooter.com/ar15/Funny/mosinnagant.jpg">

God I love these rifles :2guns:

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

If it were a French WWII rifle I could believe it had never been fired - would be a bit wary of how it withstood being dropped, tho...
:devil2:

The vast majority of WWII/WWI soldiers were drafted and their percentage of effective shot at the enemy, if they fired at all, were very low.

Compared to the current US Marines who will fire 100%. No morals. No thought. Just reaction!

[Indiana_Jones]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/h09MqTR5Pn8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/h09MqTR5Pn8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

The Duke was awesone in the film

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

No, silly, they are merely interpreting the definition of "firearm" - "free-standing military-pattern pistol grip" = "can be held with your hand"; "firearm" = "anything that could possibly be used as a weapon".

As the knives can be held in your hand, they'll probably also charge him with illegal possession of an MSSA...

The guy was having a whizz till they grabbed him. Someone in the canteen overhead he was taking a "piss till gripped"... and the rest is history! They can't lock him up till the find a cell with 6mm plate steel walls, and 8mm plate steel door.

[scumdog]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10591895

According to all the reports this man has knives and a meat cleaver.

The police in their wisdom have now decided to charge him with threatening to kill and using a firearm to resist arrest.

What I want to know is where did this firearm suddenly come from or when did the police start classifying knives as firearms.

Is this an attempt to influence the crime statistics and once again put firearms owners on the defensive?

So you KNOW that's all he had??

OK, I bit.....

[wbks]

Compared to the current US Marines who will fire 100%. No morals. No thought. Just reaction!You really think the majority of soldiers are much different?

[sAsLEX]

You really think the majority of soldiers are much different?

Depends on the era they come from, how they are trained et al. It is a rather complex equation really.


But the Americans(and other forces as well) have spent a lot of time and money researching how to remove moral conscience as a stop to the squeezing of that index finger.

[Mr Merde]

Depends on the era they come from, how they are trained et al. It is a rather complex equation really.


But the Americans(and other forces as well) have spent a lot of time and money researching how to remove moral conscience as a stop to the squeezing of that index finger.

Doesnt need a moral conscience to be removed, just a belief that what you are doing will make a difference some way.

[Indiana_Jones]

Guns also go bang!

-Indy

[wbks]

Depends on the era they come from, how they are trained et al. It is a rather complex equation really.


But the Americans(and other forces as well) have spent a lot of time and money researching how to remove moral conscience as a stop to the squeezing of that index finger.So let me guess, you would expect the all mighty British Special Air Service to be more morally conscious and better trained etc? Better trained... Sure. Morally conscious? I'm not so sure dressing like Iraqi civilians and driving around in a car shooting at civilians and police is a very moral thing to do. *Yes that is a real example

[Mr Merde]

.......I'm not so sure dressing like Iraqi civilians and driving around in a car shooting at civilians and police is a very moral thing to do. *Yes that is a real example

Where does this come from?

First I've heard of activities like this from those troops mentioned.

Unless it comes from a book by Chris Ryan or Andy McNab. Tossers both who dont dare show their faces in Hereford.

As to the USA having better troops and better training, recent figures show that for every kill made in the current conflicts there have been about 500,000 rounds expended. I wouldnt exactly, in light of these figures say that the training has improved.

Going into a conflict situation is not easy. Fears, nerves, worries, adrenilin and everythiong else works against you.

I've seen first timers who have been through their first firefight without actually firing a shot. They have been through all the actions, taking aim, pulling the trigger, counting rounds, changing mags etc, all with the safety on. Not one shot fired.

When there are 20 of you opening up and there is incomming fire, you hope that training will kick in and you dont mess up too badly. Harder still is to lie in wait and cold bloodedly take aim at someone who has no idea you are there, and fire that one killing shot off. Here you rely on training and your own belief system. Thats why snipers are a very selective unit and a very lonely group of men.

When you are in a group of soldiers firing off at anything and everything you can always kid yourself that every shot you fired either got a real baddie or missed. When on your own you know that you have taken a life and it is you who will have to live with that no matter if it was an act that made a great difference or not in the scheme of things.

A member of the airforce or the navy are insulated from this mostly. They fight at a distance in the majority of circumstances and the enemy is very impersonal. A foot soldier gets up close and dirty. We are all scared.

[wbks]

No, it's a real example, not out of a book. I'll try to find it, but remember, just because they are our "allies", doesn't mean they don't do some fucked up shit. Somehow I think you all would have believed me, no questions asked, if I said it was the russian Speznatz(sp?) in another area of the world, or some other "dodgy" nation. Yes? Those statistics don't cover suppresive fire, do they? I'm no veteran soldier (you sound like you might be?), but from what I know, a lot of that 500, 000 goes to keeping the enemy off you, not necessarily into actually killing the enemy? Snipers only fire when they are guaranteed a kill (as you said), not when they want to cover themselves while they are in danger when they don't need to kill, just keep people off your back. I know if I was getting shot at with a .50 cal machine gun I'd probably stop shooting at them and duck for cover for a while, anyway

"Two British commandos, members of the secretive SAS were arrested by Iraqi police yesterday in the southern Iraqi city of Basra. The two men, dressed in Arab garb and driving an unmarked car, drew the attention of police. As the car was approached, shots were fired. Conflicting reports make the timeline of the exchange of fire unclear, and there are also discrepancies concerning casualties, some saying one policeman was wounded and/or killed, others claiming two police dead, while still others claim none were killed. But what is clear: the two soldiers were taken into custody and questioned by an Iraqi judge. "-pej.org "Basra governor Mohammed al-Waili said the men - possibly working undercover - were arrested for allegedly shooting dead a policeman and wounding another."-http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4264614.stm I've seen it also talked about on other clips. Basically, local accounts (of being shot at) are discounted as biased, and the only accepted account of events is that a police man was shot dead. Maybe the public just thought that they were being shot at (caught in crossfire) or maybe it happened, no one will know

[hospitalfood]

When there are 20 of you opening up and there is incomming fire, you hope that training will kick in and you dont mess up too badly. Harder still is to lie in wait and cold bloodedly take aim at someone who has no idea you are there, and fire that one killing shot off. Here you rely on training and your own belief system. Thats why snipers are a very selective unit and a very lonely group of men.



you could argue that people just ain't no good........we are destroying our own environment at a fair clip, we overpopulate the planet.
Greed abounds etc.

Every kill is a good kill if you look at it in an objective manner.

[wbks]

you could argue that people just ain't no good........we are destroying our own environment at a fair clip, we overpopulate the planet.
Greed abounds etc.

Every kill is a good kill if you look at it in an objective manner.The primary reason for (almost) every conflict since (and even in, for the yanks) world war two has been for money or influence, hidden under the guise of "liberation" or "freedom and democracy for the people of _______". So yes, greed.

[-easy--rider-]

co2. semi auto. others dont matter

[scumdog]

you could argue that people just ain't no good........, we overpopulate the planet.
.
THAT in a nut-shell sums up the cause of almost all the worlds problems.:(

[hospitalfood]

yep i think so. and if i dont get some more work soon i may have to sell one of my semi-automatic solutions............or perhaps one of my bolt action solutions

[sAsLEX]

So let me guess, you would expect the all mighty British Special Air Service to be more morally conscious and better trained etc? Better trained... Sure. Morally conscious? I'm not so sure dressing like Iraqi civilians and driving around in a car shooting at civilians and police is a very moral thing to do. *Yes that is a real example

Not at all.

The documentary I watched noting the very low percentage of draftees actually putting effective rounds down range was US. It was covering the development of training in the US from the early 1900s to today.

[ManDownUnder]

Not allowed to just chuck it in the post - so..l. what options do I have?

[Indiana_Jones]

Not allowed to just chuck it in the post - so..l. what options do I have?

I think you can courier it? no doubt at some extra cost.

Powder on the other hand is a bitch to mail/courier I hear.

Best you ask Chris

-Indy

[jono035]

Not allowed to just chuck it in the post - so..l. what options do I have?

I think couriers can carry packages of ammo up to 5kgs but I don't know what the requirements for them to do so are.

http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/rules/dangerous-goods-2005.html#23

Basically says packages of ammo 5kg or less can be transported provided they are well packaged (bubble wrap and cardboard box I guess) and marked with the UN number, shipping name, clases and division.

Would probably be up to the courier though. NZ couriers and courierpost both have notes on their website about not transporting dangerous goods without written authorization... I'd give em a call and find out what the story is, it may just be a case of signing a special form and sticking the correct sticker on.

[sAsLEX]

Fixed the case up to take both the rifles.

Foam is expensive! $112 a m^2, but got some half price so not too bad.

[hospitalfood]

Not allowed to just chuck it in the post - so..l. what options do I have?

you could do what i do to avoid hassle and problems and paying heaps = chuck it in the post.

[jono035]

Fixed the case up to take both the rifles.

Foam is expensive! $112 a m^2, but got some half price so not too bad.

looks good man, very snug looking...

[jono035]

you could do what i do to avoid hassle and problems and paying heaps = chuck it in the post.

Without declaring it that may actually be an offense of some kind. Not that I think you'd ever get caught, but just for the record...

[sAsLEX]

Without declaring it that may actually be an offense of some kind. Not that I think you'd ever get caught, but just for the record...

Reminds me of a friend who got charged for Dangerous Goods on an Aeroplane.

He had his chainsaw, disassembled, with the gas tank empty and had vented it for a week. Got to his destination and they through a hissy fit arrested him and eventually let him go, but now flying is incredibly difficult and they held on to his chainsaw for 3 months and it cost him a fair bit to get it back.


They then flew it back to him. In the exact same state, same packaging which hardly looked opened . He was rather confused how it was ok for them but not for him......

[jono035]

Reminds me of a friend who got charged for Dangerous Goods on an Aeroplane.

He had his chainsaw, disassembled, with the gas tank empty and had vented it for a week. Got to his destination and they through a hissy fit arrested him and eventually let him go, but now flying is incredibly difficult and they held on to his chainsaw for 3 months and it cost him a fair bit to get it back.


They then flew it back to him. In the exact same state, same packaging which hardly looked opened . He was rather confused how it was ok for them but not for him......

Yeah, doesn't have to make sense for them to still screw you over it :P

[Swoop]

There is something on TV tonight @ 9.30. "Kids with guns".

Might be interesting as on the shorts for the programme, the family is at the machine gun shoots that are held in the USA.
The kids appear well supervised and very happy... Two unusual things in society at times.

[Indiana_Jones]

There is something on TV tonight @ 9.30. "Kids with guns".

Might be interesting as on the shorts for the programme, the family is at the machine gun shoots that are held in the USA.
The kids appear well supervised and very happy... Two unusual things in society at times.

which channel?

-Indy

[Swoop]

which channel?

-Indy
I "think" it is on TV1...

edit: Yup!

Real Life: Kids with Guns (TV1, 9.30pm). In the most armed society in the world, where around 80 people die every day in gun-related incidents, logic would dictate that fewer guns would equal fewer tragedies. However, as this doco shows, there are some passionate gun owners in the US whose solution is more, not fewer. Kids with Guns follows three American families who are happy to place scary weaponry in the hands of their small children – including a six-year-old with an AK-47 and a seven-year-old with a specially adapted semi-automatic rifle.

[wbks]

I "think" it is on TV1...

edit: Yup!

Real Life: Kids with Guns (TV1, 9.30pm). In the most armed society in the world, where around 80 people die every day in gun-related incidents, logic would dictate that fewer guns would equal fewer tragedies. However, as this doco shows, there are some passionate gun owners in the US whose solution is more, not fewer. Kids with Guns follows three American families who are happy to place scary weaponry in the hands of their small children – including a six-year-old with an AK-47 and a seven-year-old with a specially adapted semi-automatic rifle.Did it show a little kid on a browning .50 cal:eek5:
Sign me up:gob:...

[Wolf]

I "think" it is on TV1...

edit: Yup!

Real Life: Kids with Guns (TV1, 9.30pm). In the most armed society in the world, where around 80 people die every day in gun-related incidents, logic would dictate that fewer guns would equal fewer tragedies. However, as this doco shows, there are some passionate gun owners in the US whose solution is more, not fewer. Kids with Guns follows three American families who are happy to place scary weaponry in the hands of their small children – including a six-year-old with an AK-47 and a seven-year-old with a specially adapted semi-automatic rifle.
Fair enough. About time the media showed something pro-shooting to balance out the hysterical knee-jerk articles they've been showing.

My boys love shooting. Taliesin keeps going on about going out to Chris' place and shooting, Tangwyn keeps going on about his visit to the Auckland Blackpowder Club's event.

I've dug out my soft air pistols and I set up a range for the boys in the lounge - strict range-shooting rules apply, I'm Range Officer and Armourer and the boys love the shooting.

The soft air pistols are ideal as the pellets are stopped by a curtain and won't penetrate plaster or wallpaper so we can practise indoors any time we feel like it; the pistols are lightweight and have no recoil so the boys can hold them and focus on control, accuracy and the safety rules.

It's an ideal vector for their competitive natures as it is a sport where Taliesin's greater size, strength and speed give him no advantages over Tangwyn - the pistols are "equalizers" indeed. They level the playing field for the 2 boys and Tangwyn can - and often does - actually beat his older brother at something.

Tangwyn is especially intent on what he is doing, painstakingly aiming the pistol at the target with his finger resting on the frame until ready to fire, then he takes care to squeeze the trigger without shaking the pistol.

They delight in calling out what ring they hit or "bullseye" when they get one.

I'm seriously considering mocking up a couple of lights with a remote switch just like on a real range.

The boys are not strong enough to cock the pistols (they're springers and have to be manually cocked for each shot) so I cycle the slide for them.

They are learning firearms safety ("treat even these as though they are real firearms and treat all firearms as if they are loaded"), control and discipline - and enjoying themselves in the process.

Someone I know made disparaging comments about me teaching my little monsters how to use a weapon - typical of the knee-jerk reactions of the general public when it comes to firearms.

For all I know, I've got a couple of future Olympic gold-medalists under my roof - I'm certainly going to give them all the encouragement and guidance I can.

[jono035]

Fair enough. About time the media showed something pro-shooting to balance out the hysterical knee-jerk articles they've been showing.

...

For all I know, I've got a couple of future Olympic gold-medalists under my roof - I'm certainly going to give them all the encouragement and guidance I can.

That's a pretty good attitude really. I used to love shooting and blocks of wood and cans set up on the edge of the lawn with the .22 air rifle we had.

Pistol shooting is a wonderful equalizer of physical abilities, that's for sure. Even for the larger calibers it is a mental challenge long before you arrive at any physical challenges.

One thing that I think people don't realise as well is that firearms are inherently quite simple to use at a basic level. It only takes a few minutes to teach someone (or for them to figure out) how to use a weapon in the most basic sense. Mastery takes a liftime of course, but 'not knowing how' is not an impediment to someone making the decision to use a firearm in an illegal manner.

For my 9mm putting rounds in magazine is probably the hardest bit... Put magazine in the obvious hole in the bottom of grip. Pull the slide back and release, just as has been seen in the movies. Point. Pull trigger. Anyone thinking that a lack of familiarity with these processes would stop someone committing a crime is severely deluded. It doesn't matter that their accuracy would be crap, it'd still be good enough that I'd never volunteer to stand in front of them.

One of the police officers I've spoken to at the gun range once said that they thought the trend in gangster movies to show people shooting with their weapons turned side on had probably saved more lives than many other gun crime prevention initiatives...

[scumdog]

I "think" it is on TV1...

– including a six-year-old with an AK-47 and a seven-year-old with a specially adapted semi-automatic rifle.

Sounds just like my boys a few years ago - but no 'specially adapted' semi-auto for them:no:

Just my full-sized editions.

[Mr Merde]

I will lay odds that this show and the up and comming show on Target tomorrow night (about kids and airguns) will strees the negative view.

Has anyone else noticed there seems to be a lot of these types of articles and shows about lately.

[Indiana_Jones]

I will lay odds that this show and the up and comming show on Target tomorrow night (about kids and airguns) will strees the negative view.

Has anyone else noticed there seems to be a lot of these types of articles and shows about lately.

It's not just you mate.

-Indy

[Brett]

There was a guy playing with a box of those at the range a few months back, pretty random looking. Apparently those in a .22 pistol are good as snake-protection...

LOL well they would certainly keep my 'snake' away!

[Wolf]

One thing that I think people don't realise as well is that firearms are inherently quite simple to use at a basic level. It only takes a few minutes to teach someone (or for them to figure out) how to use a weapon in the most basic sense. Mastery takes a liftime of course, but 'not knowing how' is not an impediment to someone making the decision to use a firearm in an illegal manner.
I wholeheartedly agree. While loading some can require a bit of "nutting out", unless the weapon is really exotic (like a Heckler & Koch P7) and the guy's a real moron (like one bloke who relieved a German cop of his P7), actually firing the damned thing is quite simple - picking it up and fucking around with it will usually get job done sooner or later (whether or not the person actually wants to fire it...)

The boys already had a good idea of how to fire a pistol, it was teaching them to do so safely that was the first order of business.

[Wolf]

I will lay odds that this show and the up and comming show on Target tomorrow night (about kids and airguns) will strees the negative view.
GAKK! Fucking Target again! Those brain-damaged, sensationalist, misrepresenting twats ought to be jailed for fraud. I'd spit on the bastards but I refuse to degrade my spit by letting it touch them.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'd spit on the bastards but I refuse to degrade my spit by letting it touch them.

Oh, sick burn.

-Indy

[twistemotion]

Has anyone else noticed there seems to be a lot of these types of articles and shows about lately.
Yip, Gubberment is gearing up for some arms law changes and injecting negative perceptions into ignorant minds by using the media. Don't know exactly what changes, but it will be more restrictive, and I don't think it'll end with the thumb-hole stock thing either, it's bigger than that. Brace yourself.

[Mr Merde]

Yep we are being set up again.

Something is comming and I dont think I want to be around when it does.

There comes a time when you have to give up butting your head against a brick wall and admit that your head hurts.

I'm tired and dissapointed. Takes a lot of energy to be continually enthusiastic and I've been fighting the antis now since 1987.

Anyone looking for a pistol?

Time to thin the collection maybe.

[Mr Merde]

BTW

I've been singing the praises to some of my fellow shooters re the new organisation.

One of them loves the sound of it and will be joining. Steve is very vocal and if he thinks something is good he will say so.

He was in Sportsways in Mt Eden last weekend and mentioned the NSANZ.

They told him they wouldnt be supporting it as they thought it a waste of time.

I for one will not support a business that doesnt have our ( NZ shooters) interests at heart. They are happy to make money off of us but not support us in any other capacity.

I've spent a lot of money in that shop. No more. If they dont care about us why should we care about them.

FUCK EM

[wbks]

Anyone looking for a pistol?

I bet you'd sell it to me without sighting a license...

[wbks]

So WHY do these tards on the TV think it's a good idea to RECLASSIFY a firearm and call it something it's not, just to make it required to have a firearms license to buy it? Surely air rifles over a certain fps rating or something should be restricted as air rifles with a certain fps rating, but calling a cat a cow? NZ police is fucked...

[Indiana_Jones]

They told him they wouldnt be supporting it as they thought it a waste of time.

FUCK EM

What sort of attitude is that to have?

It's their livelyhood.....

I'll be sure to take my business elsewhere.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

I bet you'd sell it to me without sighting a license...

You filming a TV program?

Shall I talk "redneck"?

Should I mention the comming of the revolution, blood in the streets, doom and gloom?

BTW there is 5 to choose from

2 Weihrauch .44 Mag single action revolvers
2 Uberti 58 Remmies, antiqued (means no blueing), .44 cap and ball
1 Margolin MUM .22 semi auto with barrel threaded for a genltemans accessory

Might even get rid of a few rifles.

Indy still want the M1 carbine?

[Indiana_Jones]

Indy still want the M1 carbine?

You know how to reach me mate :)

-Indy

[wbks]

You filming a TV program?

Shall I talk "redneck"?

Should I mention the comming of the revolution, blood in the streets, doom and gloom?

BTW there is 5 to choose from

2 Weihrauch .44 Mag single action revolvers
2 Uberti 58 Remmies, antiqued (means no blueing), .44 cap and ball
1 Margolin MUM .22 semi auto with barrel threaded for a genltemans accessory

Might even get rid of a few rifles.

Indy still want the M1 carbine?I would love any one of those, but I've got a 600 in my bedroom I cant ride for a few more weeks until I go for my full test, so that fee (almost 200) along with all of the B cat costs and I'd have to put my grandma on the block...:sweatdrop

M1 as in Garand?

[Indiana_Jones]

M1 as in Garand?

as in M1 Carbine


<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/M1_Carbine.jpg">

-Indy

[wbks]

Neat!:gob:
Why did I ask, I didn't quite read that through:Oops:
Have they been released as hunting rifles, or are they all ex WW2 rifles? In which case I thought only the yanks used them?

[Mr Merde]

Going to talk to my friend Eric tomorrow.

Hes been around long enough in this game of ours. He may know someone looking for a few new toys.

[wbks]

Speaking of WW2 era weapons... I was told a while back that my grandpa while stationed in Japan in fourty something, was given (or found, can't remember) a genuine samurai sword that had been kept by the Japanese troops. He just gave it away... Aparantly the age of the katana was quite high, or the sword smith was very well regarded, because the person he sold it to (thinking it was just a glorified mantlepiece) sold it for close to ten K not long after...

I saw a 7.7mm Arisaka rifle action on trademe a couple mins ago. Are there any of these in good condition lying around? If I wanted to get any similar WW2 era rifle for hunting and targets (and general ogling), would I be likely to buy one for around the 500 mark or under? Excluding Enfields

[Indiana_Jones]

I saw a 7.7mm Arisaka rifle action on trademe a couple mins ago. Are there any of these in good condition lying around? If I wanted to get any similar WW2 era rifle for hunting and targets (and general ogling), would I be likely to buy one for around the 500 mark or under?

If you're after WW2 era weapons and are just getting into it andwant something cheap, look into a Mosin-Nagant, 7.62x54R Russian service rifle designed in 1891 and used till 1950.

Can get them for $250-300 still in their cold war storage grease.

-Indy

[wbks]

If you're after WW2 era weapons and are just getting into it andwant something cheap, look into a Mosin-Nagant, 7.62x54R Russian service rifle designed in 1891 and used till 1950.

Can get them for $250-300 still in their cold war storage grease.

-IndyYea, thought of Mosin Nagants, and seen them on trademe. They're nice, but I'd still be curious about an Arisaka if one showed up. Whats with the weird cartridge on the Nagant? Similar behavior to a X39?

[Mr Merde]

Yea, thought of Mosin Nagants, and seen them on trademe. They're nice, but I'd still be curious about an Arisaka if one showed up. Whats with the weird cartridge on the Nagant? Similar behavior to a X39?

Much longer case 54mm as oppoised to 39mm

Performance more like a .303 or 8x57 or 30-06 than that pipsqueak 7.62x39

[Indiana_Jones]

Much longer case 54mm as oppoised to 39mm

Performance more like a .303 or 8x57 or 30-06 than that pipsqueak 7.62x39

Chris loooooooooooves Mosins

-Indy

[Swoop]

a genuine samurai sword that had been kept by the Japanese troops.
A few years ago there was a group of Japanese going around buying up any of these that they could get their hands on. "To be returned to their home country" of course.

[Wolf]

2 Weihrauch .44 Mag single action revolvers
2 Uberti 58 Remmies, antiqued (means no blueing), .44 cap and ball
1 Margolin MUM .22 semi auto with barrel threaded for a genltemans accessory
The Margolin's a beaut. If I had my pistol licence, and the money, I'd snap it up - after getting the Bess.

Sorry to hear you're thinning the collection, Chris.

Found the old wooden stock for the SKS the other week, will give it a bit of a tidy and put it back on the SKS - anyone with an SKS and an E-endorsement want to buy a hole-through target stock?

Will have to sight your licence and permits, of course, can't go around supplying vicious-looking stocks to just anyone.

[Indiana_Jones]

anyone with an SKS and an E-endorsement want to buy a hole-through target stock?

Will have to sight your licence and permits, of course, can't go around supplying vicious-looking stocks to just anyone.

Oh of course.....lol


The Margolin's a beaut. If I had my pistol licence, and the money, I'd snap it up - after getting the Bess.

Sorry to hear you're thinning the collection, Chris.

It is a shame. But I've put my hand up if he decides to sell the M1 :)

-Indy

[wbks]

Although some of these kids do seem a little young to be using guns, this reporter seems a little misguided. He just tried to say that an ar15 a girl was using was "an air cooled semi automatic assualt rifle currently used by US special forces in Afghanistan". Biased and incorrect much?

[Indiana_Jones]

Although some of these kids do seem a little young to be using guns, this reporter seems a little misguided. He just tried to say that an ar15 a girl was using was "an air cooled semi automatic assualt rifle currently used by US special forces in Afghanistan". Biased and incorrect much?

Even if it were true, does it matter?

I use the pinnacle of 19th century military technology.

A Breech loading firearm capable of discharging 10 shots in less then a minute using a bolt!

My God!

technology changes....

crazy I know

-Indy

[wbks]

Even if it were true, does it matter?

I use the pinnacle of 19th century military technology.

A Breech loading firearm capable of discharging 10 shots in less then a minute using a bolt!

My God!

technology changes....

crazy I know

-IndyHe was trying (using false information) to say how much overkill it is to have a kid on a rifle like that. More of the "omg it looks scary" type of thing. An AR15 is no more dangerous than the average semi auto 308 hunting rifle, but because it (hunting rifle) looks more mellow it wouldn't get the same reaction? Well thats the point I was making

[Indiana_Jones]

He was trying (using false information) to say how much overkill it is to have a kid on a rifle like that. More of the "omg it looks scary" type of thing. An AR15 is no more dangerous than the average semi auto 308 hunting rifle, but because it (hunting rifle) looks more mellow it wouldn't get the same reaction? Well thats the point I was making

I got what you were trying to say.

But trying to tell those muppets that is like talking to a brickwall.

I wouldn't let it worry you lol

We have bigger fish to fry my lad!

-Indy

[wbks]

It's not like I could afford an Ar15, anyhow :(
Hey, the only Mosin Nagants I see on trademe are 750 and 900... $300 you say?

[Indiana_Jones]

It's not like I could afford an Ar15, anyhow :(
Hey, the only Mosin Nagants I see on trademe are 750 and 900... $300 you say?

I saw that $750 one.

He's fucking dreaming.

Serious Shooters has them for $300 I believe.

Reloaders might of sold out by now, but they normally get them in once in a while.

I got my 91/30 from them for $250

-Indy

[wbks]

I saw that $750 one.

He's fucking dreaming.

Serious Shooters has them for $300 I believe.

Reloaders might of sold out by now, but they normally get them in once in a while.

I got my 91/30 from them for $250

-IndySo I'm assuming that 91/30 is for the 1891-1930 model?

[Indiana_Jones]

So I'm assuming that 91/30 is for the 1891-1930 model?

Yep, the 'revamp' done in 1930.

You're onto it.

I also own the M44 carbine with the fold out bayonet.

-Indy

[JDK]

Howdy Mr Merde
long time watcher first time poster HAHA any how if yer want drop me a PM about the 44 mags ..
just got a new fella shooting at local club that maybe keen as he's got a lever acton in 44mag ..
kinda intrested in how ya get on with the 45/70 i just loaded up my rolling block with some ffG and 535Gr pills for a shoot over on the west coast this coming weekend may even make it up north in early nov for the NZ champs
catch ya
JD

[jono035]

wbks - Hate to be a killjoy and don't know if you or Chris are being serious here (god I hope not Chris, come on!) none of those pistols would be a good idea at all. They're either black powder or .44 magnum. Neither is a good choice for a beginner.

Edit: I think I'll ask Sportsways next time I go in and if they don't sound keen then I'll mention that it is enough for me to go elsewhere. Given that I've spent a hell of a lot of money in that store over the past few years hopefully it may mean something.

Anyone know if Serious Shooters is supporting the NSA?

Edit2: Well the .22 pistol would be brilliant for a beginner to be sure, but I sure as hell wouldn't mind giving it a good home until you come to your senses, Chris!

[Mr Merde]

Howdy Mr Merde
long time watcher first time poster HAHA any how if yer want drop me a PM about the 44 mags ..
just got a new fella shooting at local club that maybe keen as he's got a lever acton in 44mag ..
kinda intrested in how ya get on with the 45/70 i just loaded up my rolling block with some ffG and 535Gr pills for a shoot over on the west coast this coming weekend may even make it up north in early nov for the NZ champs
catch ya
JD

So whats your handle in CAS?

Mine is\was Dai Sloe

[JDK]

Name in CAS is JD Kid never been up north shooting yet know a few guys that travel a bit in to the south

the last 2 years i have been RG for the eastern plains (timaru ,Ash , chch area ) and now SD for CAS in CHCH ..

changed over to being a soot lord amonth ago man that blows ya hair back spose ya not realy ment to have 80 Gr's of black in shot gun and full cases in 45 colts with 250 pills topping them off but it looks cool and shot duelest even makes it look the part HAHAHA i'm just there to make up the numbers and do that fund raseing by haveing a few fanta's after shooting ..

me and my better 1/2 (Shellie Jector ... say it to ya self )shoot CAS and have a range here on farm with 3 areas i can shoot CAS on shooting a bit more longer range kinda stuff lever action rifles and single shots

catch ya
JD

[wbks]

wbks - Hate to be a killjoy and don't know if you or Chris are being serious here (god I hope not Chris, come on!) none of those pistols would be a good idea at all. They're either black powder or .44 magnum. Neither is a good choice for a beginner.
Wasn't really a serious statement... Like I said, I couldn't afford it, anyhow!

[jono035]

Wasn't really a serious statement... Like I said, I couldn't afford it, anyhow!

Yeah, that's true enough. I'm trying to convince myself that I can afford the new toy I've been looking at, but given that I can't even really afford to feed the 9mm at the moment, firing anything serious in .44 mag would require a reloading setup, and that's when the wheels fall off the idea.

Chris: Fired a bit more of that spare 9mm ammo last night. Had one of the regulars there asking me about how the Taurus compared to the Beretta 92 so I gave him a few of the rounds to have a pop with. He was much more accurate with it than I was by a long way (about 4" at 25m rather than my more like 12") but it still surprised me how much it rocked him back on his heels with each round. He mentioned that it felt like +P ammo though... Oh well, the pistol seems to be handling it with no complaints!

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, that's true enough. I'm trying to convince myself that I can afford the new toy I've been looking at, but given that I can't even really afford to feed the 9mm at the moment, firing anything serious in .44 mag would require a reloading setup, and that's when the wheels fall off the idea.

Chris: Fired a bit more of that spare 9mm ammo last night. Had one of the regulars there asking me about how the Taurus compared to the Beretta 92 so I gave him a few of the rounds to have a pop with. He was much more accurate with it than I was by a long way (about 4" at 25m rather than my more like 12") but it still surprised me how much it rocked him back on his heels with each round. He mentioned that it felt like +P ammo though... Oh well, the pistol seems to be handling it with no complaints!

.44 is a doddle to load. all you need is the dies,

I have no idea what that 9mm ammo was other than military.

Havent had a nine since 1997 when the UK cops stole my CZ75 and CZ85

4" isnt bad for a 9mm but with practice you should be able to shrink that to at least a 2". Secret to all pistol shooting is repetition.

Doesnt matter how much ammo you fire, make sure you spend about 75% of your practice doing dry fire exercises. Building up muscle memory and eye to target co-ordination.

Dry firing builds consistancy.

I used to use an old fashoned pencil with a rubber on the end.
Pushed it down the barrel of my .45 (undoaded of course)

Had a target drawn on the wall. Just two lines , one verticle and one horizontal

I raised the pistol to the firing position about 1/2" from the two lines and pulled the trigger. The firing pin hit the rubber and drove the pencil to the target. The point made tiny marks on the paper, just like a bullet on a fullsize target would. I could work out from where the marks were as to what I was doing wrong, then work on that problem.

Try it, its not as easy as it sounds but it will make you concentrate on position and sights. Building muscle memory.

[wbks]

On my earlier question... I guess there is quite a difference!! http://www.sdnewell.com/Images/IMG_4446.jpg

[jono035]

On my earlier question... I guess there is quite a difference!! http://www.sdnewell.com/Images/IMG_4446.jpg

Yeah, the 7.62x39 is the relatively wimpy 'AK47' cartridge, built for low recoil, controllability under automatic fire and the ability to carry large quantities of ammo.

7.62x54R was a much older cartridge, originally designed during the era of bolt-action weapons and mostly used for longer distance shooting and sniping.

Chris: Yeah, I definitely get what you're saying. I'm generally pretty good with the trigger control (4" groups from the .22) but things open up quite a lot more with the 9mm. I know I flinch if I'm not concentrating with the Taurus but I'm keen on getting my hands on a long-barrelled revolver and loading some relatively light rounds into it to see how that goes. I was quite surprised that the Taurus could even shoot that well, the barrel certainly doesn't lock up particularly tightly in the slide. I should have asked him to put a few more down range and see if they kept grouping like that.

[Mr Merde]

....
Chris: Yeah, I definitely get what you're saying. I'm generally pretty good with the trigger control (4" groups from the .22) but things open up quite a lot more with the 9mm. I know I flinch if I'm not concentrating with the Taurus but I'm keen on getting my hands on a long-barrelled revolver and loading some relatively light rounds into it to see how that goes. I was quite surprised that the Taurus could even shoot that well, the barrel certainly doesn't lock up particularly tightly in the slide. I should have asked him to put a few more down range and see if they kept grouping like that.

Isnt just for trigger control. This exercise will tone the whole of your shooting.

When you raise a pistol to shoot it WILL waver. It is the skill of the marksman that can minimise the waver, possibly turn it into a small circular motion and then when everything is as it should be the pistol is fired.

The good pistol shooter will have that circular motion down to a minimum and he will fire the pistol at the same time everytime.

If you hold aim longer than 7 seconds you have held too long.

If you look at the piece odf paper with the holes from the pencil on it you will see where the pencil stuck. If the pinpricks are all in a vertical direction you are stringing your shots and need to work on your sight aquisition.

If they are all to the bottom left (assuming you are right handed) you are pushing the trigger, low and to the righ you are pulling. If it looks like a shotgun pattern then you are holding too long and suffering muscle fatigue.


The plotting of the fall of shot is a powerful diagnostic tool that will tell an experienced coach where you may be faulting.

[The Pastor]

picking the rifle uptoday, they are going to chuck a box of ammo in so i can test it with live ammo!

woohoo

[Mr Merde]

Check this out for group diagnosis

[ManDownUnder]

... put in a false Firearms license number on trademe and they told me off.

Im might try it again with a carefully constructed license number (right format, wrong numbers of course) to see if they catch on, or sdoes anyhone know how they valuidate the number input?

I find it hard to believe they'd have access to lists of FA serial numbers to data match against.

[Mr Merde]

... put in a false Firearms license number on trademe and they told me off.

Im might try it again with a carefully constructed license number (right format, wrong numbers of course) to see if they catch on, or sdoes anyhone know how they valuidate the number input?

I find it hard to believe they'd have access to lists of FA serial numbers to data match against.

If they do then I would make a serious complaint as that should be secure information.

I'd hate to think of a shopping list being out there for the bad boys to get.

Dont tell me it is secure I work in the trade and the only way to truely secure a machine is to put it in a sealed room, turned off.

[Mr Merde]

The Wheel of Misfortune
Every day of the shooter's life brings a new lesson. Identifying errors are crucial in order that these lessons be learned. The following chart can help pinpoint such basic flaws in a shooter's technique by analyzing group locations. As printed, it is for a right-handed shooter. (A left-hander's chart would be mirrored horizontally.)


http://www.bullseyepistol.com/wheel.gif

Top Eleven Bad Habits of Shooters

Not Looking at the Sights. This quite frequently is listed as "looking at the target." A shooter may be focusing his eye on neither the sights nor the target, but since he does not see the target in clear focus he assumes he is looking at the sights. You must concentrate on sight alignment.
Holding Too Long. Any adverse conditions that interrupt a shooter's ability to "hold" will cause him to delay his squeeze, waiting for conditions to better. The disturbing factor about this is that you will do it unconsciously; therefore, you must continuously ask yourself, am I being too particular?
Improper Grip or Position. Suffice to say that you cannot fire a decent score with any gun at any range if you continually change your grip or position.
Jerk or Heel. The application of pressure either with the trigger finger alone or in case of the heel, pushing with the heel of the hand at the same time. Apply pressure to the trigger straight to the rear and wait for the shot to break.
Anticipation. Anticipation can cause muscular reflexes of an instant nature that so closely coincide with recoil that extreme difficulty is experienced in making an accurate call. Anticipation is also the sire to flinching.
Loss of Concentration. If the shooter fails in his determination to apply positive pressure on the trigger while concentrating on the front sight his prior determination needs renewal and he should rest and start over.
Anxiety. You work and work on a shot, meanwhile building up in your mind doubt about the shot being good. Finally you shoot just to get rid of that particular round so you may work on the others.
Vacillation (Plain Laziness). This is a mental fault more than a physical one, which results in your accepting minor imperfections in your performance which you could correct if you worked a little harder. The end result being you hope you get a good shot. Just like you hope you will get a gratis tax refund, and you will get one just about as frequently as you get the other.
Lack of Follow Through. Follow through is the subconscious attempt to keep everything just as it was at the time the shot broke. In other words you are continuing to fire the shot even after it is gone. Follow through is not to be confused with recovery. Merely recovering and holding on the target after the shot is no indication that you are following through.
Lack of Rhythm. Hesitancy on the first shot or any subsequent shot in timed or rapid fire. Develop a good rhythm and then have the fortitude to employ it every case. Frequently many shooters will have fine rhythm until the last shot of a string and then hesitate, doctoring up that last shot.
Match Pressure. If there are 200 competitors in a match, rest assured that there are 200 shooters suffering from match pressure. So what makes you think you are so different? If you are exerting all your mental energy toward executing the correct fundamentals rather than the arithmetic evaluation, your shooting match pressure will be what you feel when people congratulate you on a fine performance.
<!-- =========ARTICLE ENDS HERE============= --><SCRIPT>footer()</SCRIPT>

[Swoop]

There was a very good book in the public library system, by Laslo Antal. He really went into a bit of detail on target shooting, but not enough to put off the beginner.

Definately a good read for the ISSF people.

[jono035]

Check this out for group diagnosis

Yeah, they've got a bunch of those hung up around the range, very useful tool. I find for the most part I don't have any trouble with the lateral positioning, just snatching the trigger instead of letting it break cleanly pulling the shots low.

The other guy shotting the 9mm at least showed that the sights are low which is what I expected. The rear sight arrangement on the pistol is quite odd and is held up by a spring to a plunger that runs on a plate coming up out of the trigger mechanism. It shifts while pulling the trigger... Very odd.

[Mr Merde]

Target for all you rifle boys

[Indiana_Jones]

Here you go wbks,

http://www.reloaders.co.nz/Our_specials.html

$250 for the MN and its toys.

Also a pretty good price on the Tigr and M14 :)

-Indy

[wbks]

Here you go wbks,

http://www.reloaders.co.nz/Our_specials.html

$250 for the MN and its toys.

Also a pretty good price on the Tigr and M14 :)

-IndyCool, thanks. The same projectile as a 308 with a longer shell must give it a pretty decent kick for hunting, but are they very accurate? Just seems weird that they go for 200-300 never fired, while new 308s are almost a grand. Or are they just cheap because of the amount made from the 40's-90's?

[Indiana_Jones]

Cool, thanks. The same projectile as a 308 with a longer shell must give it a pretty decent kick for hunting, but are they very accurate? Just seems weird that they go for 200-300 never fired, while new 308s are almost a grand. Or are they just cheap because of the amount made from the 40's-90's?

Don't buy the "it's never been fired" lies, they wouldn't be churning out guns in WWII not to be fired!

They're refurbished, so they've been fixed in the shop as needed and then covered in cosmoline and stuck in a wharehouse in the middle of nowhere lol.

They were made from 1891 through to 1948-50, then the AK took over (in between they used the SKS)

As for accuracy, ignore anything RM will tell you lol, take it for what it is, a service rifle designed to shoot human shaped figures at a few hundred metres.

A half decent one will do a few inched groups at 100, 200 yards. But if you want a tack driver look past any service rifle.

They're very interesting rifles, well to myself at least and a good cheap entry rifle to get into surplus rifle collecting/shooting.

Hope that helps somewhat.

-Indy

[jono035]

Don't buy the "it's never been fired" lies, they wouldn't be churning out guns in WWII not to be fired!

Unless they're actual military surplus that were made, packed in cosmoline and then never issued... Don't know how common that is really but a few quick looks around some of the pages that I've seen that talk about antique firearms certainly indicate that it isn't unheard of...

[Swoop]

Also a pretty good price on the Tigr and M14 :)
Bloody hell. That is a good price!

[The Pastor]

Cool, thanks. The same projectile as a 308 with a longer shell must give it a pretty decent kick for hunting, but are they very accurate? Just seems weird that they go for 200-300 never fired, while new 308s are almost a grand. Or are they just cheap because of the amount made from the 40's-90's?
they are on the heavy side for hunting mate (good for making a stretcher / frame to carry out a deer/pig or used as a club when your outta ammo or as a tent pole tho......).

if you wanted a hunting rifle with the same accuracy you can get a sport-a-tarded 303 on tm for cheap as chips.

[Indiana_Jones]

Unless they're actual military surplus that were made, packed in cosmoline and then never issued... Don't know how common that is really but a few quick looks around some of the pages that I've seen that talk about antique firearms certainly indicate that it isn't unheard of...

Well true Jono, I'm not saying it's impossible, but you know some of the BS the shops say to sell something lol


Bloody hell. That is a good price!

I know!


they are on the heavy side for hunting mate (good for making a stretcher / frame to carry out a deer/pig or used as a club when your outta ammo or as a tent pole tho......).

if you wanted a hunting rifle with the same accuracy you can get a sport-a-tarded 303 on tm for cheap as chips.

RM makes a good point as far as the weight goes, they're not light.

And as a club? you animal, that's what the bayonet is for!

-Indy

[jono035]

you know some of the BS the shops say to sell something

Aint that the truth *sigh*

[wbks]

Don't buy the "it's never been fired" lies, they wouldn't be churning out guns in WWII not to be fired!

They're refurbished, so they've been fixed in the shop as needed and then covered in cosmoline and stuck in a wharehouse in the middle of nowhere lol.

They were made from 1891 through to 1948-50, then the AK took over (in between they used the SKS)

As for accuracy, ignore anything RM will tell you lol, take it for what it is, a service rifle designed to shoot human shaped figures at a few hundred metres.

A half decent one will do a few inched groups at 100, 200 yards. But if you want a tack driver look past any service rifle.

They're very interesting rifles, well to myself at least and a good cheap entry rifle to get into surplus rifle collecting/shooting.

Hope that helps somewhat.

-IndyI thought they used them ww2 as sniper rifles as well as infantry rifles besides the ppsh? I wouldn't be asking (at that price) for something that would send bullets through the previous hole at 3000 yards, but just something that wouldn't miss a hay bale at 200 meters:sweatdrop
I would have expected un fired ones to be lying around, actually, i was under the impression that they made them until the 50s (like you said) so there werent too many wars going on, or much use for the nagant?

[Indiana_Jones]

I thought they used them ww2 as sniper rifles as well as infantry rifles besides the ppsh? I wouldn't be asking (at that price) for something that would send bullets through the previous hole at 3000 yards, but just something that wouldn't miss a hay bale at 200 meters:sweatdrop
I would have expected un fired ones to be lying around, actually, i was under the impression that they made them until the 60s

Chances are some of them were used very little or not fired at all, with some back line troops etc using them, we'd never know as I'd imagine russian weapon inventories won't be the best, they loose track of atom bombs let alone a single rifle of 37 million made lol

They were used as sniper rifles during the war, Zaitsev used one.

-Indy

[wbks]

Chances are some of them were used very little or not fired at all, with some back line troops etc using them, we'd never know as I'd imagine russian weapon inventories won't be the best, they loose track of atom bombs let alone a single rifle of 37 million made lol I had always assumed that's why there are so many Ak47s in use by criminals and terrorists

They were used as sniper rifles during the war, Zaitsev used one.
No idea who that is... Off to Google!
-IndyHoly damn... Rumored half a thousand kills! Puts a little bit more confidence in the Mosin, aye...

[Indiana_Jones]

Holy damn... Rumored half a thousand kills! Puts a little bit more confidence in the Mosin, aye...

The female snipers were pretty deadly during ww2.

There was a video on youtube where they were hitting 18" steel plates at 900 yards with a mosin.



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PWdvWANgBsw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PWdvWANgBsw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Comrade Commisar!

-Indy

[Wolf]

They were used as sniper rifles during the war, Zaitsev used one.
AFAIK, they tested them and the very best were hand-picked for refitting as Sniper rifles - upgraded sights - the rest were good enough for the average soldier.

The Dragunov sniper rifle used the same cartridge.

[Mr Merde]

... put in a false Firearms license number on trademe and they told me off.

Im might try it again with a carefully constructed license number (right format, wrong numbers of course) to see if they catch on, or sdoes anyhone know how they valuidate the number input?

I find it hard to believe they'd have access to lists of FA serial numbers to data match against.


In the continuing nstory of TardMe

Last night I saw some projectile I wanted to bid on.

Wouldnt let me bid on the bullet heads without inputting my firarearms certificate.

Tried to ask the seller why I had to put my firearms number in when there is no legal requirement to do so when purchasing reloading components. Guess what, cant even do that without inputting the number.

Trade Me is taking things too far in their sucking up to the police. If they have access to the police database as well isnt there a privacy issue here?

I wonder if Richard wants to take on the police and Trade Me over an abuse of the Privacy Act----Mmmmmmmmm

[jono035]

Tried to ask the seller why I had to put my firearms number in when there is no legal requirement to do so when purchasing reloading components. Guess what, cant even do that without inputting the number.

Yeah, that pisses me off pretty seriously, although I'd have no problem with trademe just banning all firearms-related auctions completely, that way everyone would start using somewhere firearms specific like gunstuff or gunriflereload. At least there they have the balls to actually list pistols and those dreaded 'E' cat firearms.

[The Pastor]

yeah i hate the tradesme.
flipping rip off! i'd be all for a seperate gun auction site.

[ManDownUnder]

In the continuing nstory of TardMe

Last night I saw some projectile I wanted to bid on.

Wouldnt let me bid on the bullet heads without inputting my firarearms certificate.

Tried to ask the seller why I had to put my firearms number in when there is no legal requirement to do so when purchasing reloading components. Guess what, cant even do that without inputting the number.

Trade Me is taking things too far in their sucking up to the police. If they have access to the police database as well isnt there a privacy issue here?

I wonder if Richard wants to take on the police and Trade Me over an abuse of the Privacy Act----Mmmmmmmmm

With the greatest of respect... fuck 'em

Wonder if there's anything we could do here on KB in that respect? A trading forum perhaps? I know they have one on www.fishnhunt.co.nz (http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz) already

[jono035]

With the greatest of respect... fuck 'em

Wonder if there's anything we could do here on KB in that respect? A trading forum perhaps? I know they have one on www.fishnhunt.co.nz (http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz) already

I've been keeping an eye on some of the listings on www.gunstuff.co.nz and www.gunriflereload.co.nz. Doesn't seem to be a hell of a lot of stuff there, but hopefully tardme will keep forcing people to use other options.

So far I prefer www.gunriflereload.co.nz, it has a bit better layout for finding particular types of firearm i.e. has rifles sorted by semi-auto/bolt-action/lever-action/pump-action etc.

[Mr Merde]

With the greatest of respect... fuck 'em

Wonder if there's anything we could do here on KB in that respect? A trading forum perhaps? I know they have one on www.fishnhunt.co.nz (http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz) already

I tried to leave a message for the seller informing him\her that as I objected to having to enter my firearms number to bid on goods that do not require a licence to buy, I would not be doing so. Unfortunately even to do this you need to input your licence number.

This is ridiculous. They are building up a database of everything firearm related that we purchase.

Bullets, powder, primers, cases and reloading equipment does not require you to produce a licence to purchase. I'm not sure if its actually illegal to hold ammunition though you do need a licence to purchase factory ammo.

In the UK, much more restrictive than here, you dont need a licence to buy the components but the minute you make a completed round you need a licence to possess it.

I dont know about things like scopes etc as I havent bid on anything like that for a while but it wouldnt supprise me if they had started requiring the licence number.

[Mr Merde]

Here is an example of what I have just been raving about.

I have changed the relevant text to red.

Since when have you had to supply a firearms licence number to buy a press?

This is bollocks

The second add is attempting to ask a question regarding brass cases for a 38. Firearms number to ask a question.

As MDU said so elequantly


FUCK THEM


=================================
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Lee classic cast press


Start price: $150.00
http://www.trademe.co.nz/images/NewSearchCards/LVIcons/noReserve.gif No reserve
Closes: Sun 30 Aug, 11:17 am
Listing #: 238558834


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The seller is required to sight the buyer's firearms licence and required documentation. http://www.trademe.co.nz/images/plus.gif (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Help/PopUp.aspx?help_id=650)
Near new press,complete with all parts and original boxing.







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Closes: Sun 30 Aug, 11:17 am. This auction may auto-extend. http://www.trademe.co.nz/images/plus.gif (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Help/PopUp.aspx?help_id=230)


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Ask the seller a question
The seller cannot add a Buy Now price once bidding has started. Do not use this feature to bypass the auction process or for commercial purposes. Abuse may result in the suspension of your account.

Firearms Licence #

By entering my licence number, I confirm I am aware of my obligations under the Arms Act. Transaction details may be provided to police in accordance with the Terms & Conditions.


500 characters remaining

[ManDownUnder]

I think the issue is they've put the requirement for a FA license on the "Ammunition" category which possibly seems sensible on the face of it.

As has been pointed out however, components do not need a license, and I am also personally quite averse to handing that info to TM for no good reason. Doubly so considering the information then gets archived for all eternity, on an Australian owned website.

They either need a separate "components" subsection without license restrictions on it, or some stiff competition

[Indiana_Jones]

What a load of bollocks.

Does it breach the privacy act in anyway?

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Just sent this to Trade Me

___________

"Can you please inform me as to why you are now demanding that we have to enter our firearms licence number when bidding for such items as bullet cases, reloading dies, reloading presses, projectiles etc.
There is no law that states it is illegal to purchase these items. In fact anyone can walk into any gun shop and purchase these items without having to produce a firearms licence. Factory or whole ammunition is another matter but as individual components they do not require a licence to purchase..
You are demanding we do this even if we attempt to ask the seller a question, why?
What are you doing with this information? If you are supplying it to a third party such as the police then I am sure that the Privacy Commisioner would be very interested in this flagrant disreagard for the Privacy laws of NZ.
_______________

Now the wait to see if they will answer me or kick me off TM for daring to question them.

[Indiana_Jones]

Let us know how you get on mate.

And they shouldn't be asking even if I am purchasing live ammo or firearms.

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

TM suggestions box submission made just now.

===
You need a subcategory "Components" under your Ammunition category. The requirement for a firearms license number to be submitted for the purchase of, or even to ask questions, in the ammo category iss really annoying a lot of legitimate firearms license holders who i) know fully well there is no license required for the purchase of compoinents (live ammunition - yes, components like, primers, projectiles and powder... no!). and ii) are very reluctant to submit genuine firearms license details to anyone other than a duly authorised and trusted source of firearms, or to the Police.

Trademe is losing a lot business right now due to the request for a FA license number, and it's causing concern in some quarters. Collecting that information reasonably suggests that there's either 1) a validation process being done in which case Trademe has gained access to some highly confidential lists of information from the NZ Police. 2) Data is being collected for some purpose beyond the requirements of the law or 3) Trademe doesn't understand it's legal obligations in this regard and needs to take corrective action
===

[Indiana_Jones]

Just sent this off

___________________________________________

"Why am I required to submit personal information such as my firearms licence number when purchasing rifles?

I understand the buyer shall view my licence in person or by police order form, and rightly so.

But why am I being asked to do submit it when I bid or ask a question?

Is this information being passed onto police in anyway?"

_______________________

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Maybe I am being paranoid or maybe big brother is watching me but I feel really uneasy with a private company collection information about me like this.

I would really like to know what is happening to this information.

I would hate to think of an unofficial database being kept of all my firearms related purchases being kept somewhere.

ie

Licence number XXXXXXX
Name xxxxxxx

Address XXXXXX

Date XXXXXXX

Purchased 50 .44 Mag cases

Purchased 100 primers

Asked about delivery to North Island

Purchased 12 guage shotgun

etc.


____

I dont want to be on a "shopping List"

[Indiana_Jones]

yea same here.

Has someone brought it to the attention of the NSA?

I think I'll hold fire from buying anything firearms related on tardme until this is worked out.

I think I've brought one rifle (maybe 2) on there that asked for my licence number.

-Indy

[wbks]

I'm not trying to hint at anything, but... What do you fear would be the negative outcome of every firearm owner in NZ buying off tradme being recorded on a "shopping list"?

[The Pastor]

wasn't it tm who gave the police a very large file on the entire shopping history of thousands of people who the police then gave to some criminals?

[Indiana_Jones]

I'm not trying to hint at anything, but... What do you fear would be the negative outcome of every firearm owner in NZ buying off tradme being recorded on a "shopping list"?

I'll let Chris answer this one, We're on the same level, but he's much better with words then I.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

I'm not trying to hint at anything, but... What do you fear would be the negative outcome of every firearm owner in NZ buying off tradme being recorded on a "shopping list"?

Two things come to mind.

1) Back door method of registration. ie if its known what we are buyingn for then the powers that rule us can make a pretty good guess as to what we possess. In ann extreme case this could lead to confiscation.

2) Trade me screwing up as RM mentioned above and a list with my name and address on it telling those persons who do not obey the law, what I have and where I live.

[Mr Merde]

I'll let Chris answer this one, We're on the same level, but he's much better with words then I.

-Indy

Not as good as MDU though

[wbks]

Two things come to mind.

1) Back door method of registration. ie if its known what we are buyingn for then the powers that rule us can make a pretty good guess as to what we possess. In ann extreme case this could lead to confiscation.
Why would they want to confiscate from people who possess firearms?
People with registered firearms aren't the ones committing crimes with them, and it's not as if people (especially from NZ) are gearing up for rebellion

[Indiana_Jones]

Why would they want to confiscate from people who possess firearms?
People with registered firearms aren't the ones committing crimes with them, and it's not as if people (especially from NZ) are gearing up for rebellion

That was the reason they brought in the arms act in 1920.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Why would they want to confiscate from people who possess firearms?
People with registered firearms aren't the ones committing crimes with them, and it's not as if people (especially from NZ) are gearing up for rebellion

Tell that to the pistol owners of the UK, the firearms owners of Australia, the Canadians.

We are lawabiding therefore we are an easy target.

[Swoop]

Trade me screwing up and a list with my name and address on it telling those persons who do not obey the law, what I have and where I live.
You mean trademe fucking up (again) and allowing all that info to be passed into the hands of "the great unwashed"...

My name was passed on, in the recent kerfuffle.:(

[wbks]

In the 1920's people had just been through the Great War. Most guys were Military trained and people would have the spine to stand up for themselves. Those days are long gone and anyone standing up against the government is ostricised and as you have seen on KB, people defending arms rights are called rednecks at the drop of a hat. No matter how "big brother" like the leaders of NZ get, you could drop shipments of the armys Browning .50 Cals and Steyr AUGs loaded up on the streets and all you would see is gangs using them

[The Pastor]

You mean trademe fucking up (again) and allowing all that info to be passed into the hands of "the great unwashed"...

My name was passed on, in the recent kerfuffle.:(
how did u find out? did they notifiy you or did you have to ask?

[ManDownUnder]

wasn't it tm who gave the police a very large file on the entire shopping history of thousands of people who the police then gave to some criminals?

Yes.

On a related note - I put in a false FA license number when recently commenting to a seller they're unlikely to sell their reloading press because of the concerns about submitting a FA license number. Simply incremented a couple of the numbers up or down one or two values... but it's enough to test if they are data matching or simply parsing data through a format filter to confirm the numbers and letters are within accpetable bounds.

It also adds yet another possible value of my FA license number to any databases collecting said data :)

... shame that... Anyone that's been involved in data matching will know of the scrubbing process that needs to happen first - and what an incredible pain that is whouyld a number of possible, similar but different values come along. Was it a typo, are any of them actually correct, which one(s) can/do we check... etc

[ManDownUnder]

VERY VERY interesting update...

The FA entered (in the correct format) has now led to me being banned from purchasing firearms on TM. Which leads me to wonder if it is
1) A different number from the one I entered last time (meaning they blocked me on the basis they're not sure of the truth) or
2) They've matched the data somehow?

The email received reads thus...
===
Dear MDU,

We note that you have continued to enter incorrect firearms licence information when bidding on an item in the Shotguns, Rifles or Ammunition categories.

As stated in a previous email to you, this is a very serious matter and your ability to bid on auctions in the rifle and shotgun categories has been removed.

If you fax us a photocopy of your firearms licence we will re-enable this ability. Please fax this to us on 04 974 4820 and include your username on the fax. Alternatively, you can email us a copy of your firearms licence as an attachment to tmcs@trademe.co.nz.

You can’t reply directly to this email but if you have any questions regarding this policy, decision or any other issue, we’re happy to discuss this with you. Please contact us using the below link:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Help/ContactUsForm.aspx?help_id=516

Alternatively, to have your questions answered instantly, you can contact Trade Me via 0900 TRADE (0900 87233). Please be aware, calls cost $1.99 + GST per minute.

Regards,


Trade Me Support
********************************
Trade Me - Where Kiwis Buy and Sell
www.trademe.co.nz
********************************
===
so of course I asked the following just now through the website link given (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Help/ContactUsForm.aspx?help_id=516)

I'm sorry but can you please confirm the basis for this cancelling my ability to purchase ammunition action. Please reinstate my account immediately.

Also, and more importantly, what makes you say it's not my FA license number? How could you possibly know if it is - or not?
===

Watch this space...

[Swoop]

how did u find out? did they notifiy you or did you have to ask?
I was emailed by Betrademe, informing me that my details along with a lot of other people, had had all their details (name, address, phone numbers, etc) passed onto persons who shouldn't really have access to them.

Suffice to say that if ANYONE keeps their correct details online with Betrademe, you are really unwise to do so.

My current registered address on that website, will hopefully be passed onto the crims. They will get a surprise if they attempt to break into that address...:blip:

[ManDownUnder]

My current registered address on that website, will hopefully be passed onto the crims. They will get a surprise if they attempt to break into that address...:blip:

...but what could anyone possibly do with a verified name, address, firearms license number and copy of Photochop do?

I mean really...

[The Pastor]

VERY VERY interesting update...

The FA entered (in the correct format) has now led to me being banned from purchasing firearms on TM. Which leads me to wonder if it is
1) A different number from the one I entered last time (meaning they blocked me on the basis they're not sure of the truth) or
2) They've matched the data somehow?

The email received reads thus...
===
Dear MDU,

We note that you have continued to enter incorrect firearms licence information when bidding on an item in the Shotguns, Rifles or Ammunition categories.

As stated in a previous email to you, this is a very serious matter and your ability to bid on auctions in the rifle and shotgun categories has been removed.

If you fax us a photocopy of your firearms licence we will re-enable this ability. Please fax this to us on 04 974 4820 and include your username on the fax. Alternatively, you can email us a copy of your firearms licence as an attachment to tmcs@trademe.co.nz.

You can’t reply directly to this email but if you have any questions regarding this policy, decision or any other issue, we’re happy to discuss this with you. Please contact us using the below link:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Help/ContactUsForm.aspx?help_id=516

Alternatively, to have your questions answered instantly, you can contact Trade Me via 0900 TRADE (0900 87233). Please be aware, calls cost $1.99 + GST per minute.

Regards,


Trade Me Support
********************************
Trade Me - Where Kiwis Buy and Sell
www.trademe.co.nz
********************************
===
so of course I asked the following just now through the website link given (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Help/ContactUsForm.aspx?help_id=516)

I'm sorry but can you please confirm the basis for this cancelling my ability to purchase ammunition action. Please reinstate my account immediately.

Also, and more importantly, what makes you say it's not my FA license number? How could you possibly know if it is - or not?
===

Watch this space...
utter bullshit!

[ManDownUnder]

utter bullshit!

Well yes and no.

I hear and agree with you.

But right now I'm just itching for some ammo to establish how they do this then involve the appropriate parties to
1) Please explain to
2) The appropriate authorities

The best case for TM is to say "we're not going to tell you" in which case I'm concerned my privacy has been breached, otherwise it would seem some form of data matching may be occurring in which case... my privacy has been breached.

Not happy - but enjoying it if that makes sense...?

[jono035]

Well yes and no.

I hear and agree with you.

But right now I'm just itching for some ammo to establish how they do this then involve the appropriate parties to
1) Please explain to
2) The appropriate authorities

The best case for TM is to say "we're not going to tell you" in which case I'm concerned my privacy has been breached, otherwise it would seem some form of data matching may be occurring in which case... my privacy has been breached.

Not happy - but enjoying it if that makes sense...?

I wonder what you can get out of them under the privacy act? You can request all information they have stored about you.

Of course, the more I see things like this (especially the $2/min 0900 support number) the more I dislike trademe.

Edit: During the 'Illegal NZ' lies-and-disinformation show I was wondering if the Police would confirm whether someone had a firearms license and whether the address was correct for them if you asked with the following reasoning: If the guy got faxed the firearms license then proceeded to contact the police asking them to confirm that the name, number and address on the license and delivery address were correct then that would have been a way that using a photoshopped firearms license would have been caught out.

Perhaps TM are simply doing the same thing, asking the Police to confirm that a certain FAL number corresponds to your registered real name/address, in which case the only extra information they are getting hold of is 'yes, that firearms license number corresponds to the license issued to a person of that name'...

[ManDownUnder]

I wonder what you can get out of them under the privacy act? You can request all information they have stored about you.

Of course, the more I see things like this (especially the $2/min 0900 support number) the more I dislike trademe.

Right now I'm just collecting info. There may actually be a totally innocent explanation in which case I'll be happy to accept it. And then again there may not be.

Yet to find out.

[Mr Merde]

Right now I'm just collecting info. There may actually be a totally innocent explanation in which case I'll be happy to accept it. And then again there may not be.

Yet to find out.


Of the same opinion. If they prove to my satisfaction that all is OK I will let it rest.

Just dont like people\organisations changing the rules to suit themselves or their agenda

[ManDownUnder]

Just dont like people\organisations changing the rules to suit themselves or their agenda

Or to pass responsibility to others for their own shortcomings... through malice or ignorance. I think it's just ignorance in this case personally, although I am still REALLY curious to see how they can validate a FA license number...

[The Pastor]

in my experience with dealing with the police there is no such thing as a innocent explanation, they have so many agendas and reasons behind everything you have to be REAL careful about what you say.

[ManDownUnder]

in my experience with dealing with the police there is no such thing as a innocent explanation

I must say that's where we differ. I've never had problems with the Police personally. I'm happy to take my medicine if I do bad... I would like TM to do the same, as unrealistic as that may be.

[Indiana_Jones]

Just read what happened to MDU, will be very interesting to see what happens with it.

At the end of the day, they shouldn't care what our FAL No. is, the law requires the seller to check, no one else.

-Indy

[jono035]

Just read what happened to MDU, will be very interesting to see what happens with it.

At the end of the day, they shouldn't care what our FAL No. is, the law requires the seller to check, no one else.

-Indy

I think it's interesting because there are no safeguards to stop you creating an account in someone elses name...

Get hold of a FAL from someones wallet, make a new trademe account in their name, buy rifle, sellers get lulled into a false sense of security thinking that trademe has all their bases covered and they don't need to do anything more then get bitten when the cops find out they sold their firearm to someone without a FAL. Don't know how realistic that is but it's a thought.

Also wtf are they doing requiring a FAL number to be entered for projectiles? What's next, scrap lead? Propane tanks perhaps? :p

[sAsLEX]

Just got back from 54 hours of duty watching a "group" of people swimming and climbing ships....


One ting I noted in the show on kids with guns was the opening statement to paraphrase

" The UK has some of the strictest gun laws in the world, and yet gun crime is on the rise"


Better toughen our laws, it has worked so well in the UK!

[KREWZR]

http://nsanz.org.nz/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1251350367

[ManDownUnder]

http://nsanz.org.nz/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1251350367

Link doesn't work for non members - are you able to copy and paste? I signed up - linky still no working.

[jono035]

Link doesn't work for non members - are you able to copy and paste? I signed up - linky still no working.

Same here, I see a couple of accounts there needing activation I think

[The Pastor]

well you've never been to court then!

I was there last monday,

One guy was getting two tickets for going through a red light and a no right turn on his unicycle.

The JP's threw it out because the defense argued that it is not a vehicle and is exempt from traffic law.

The law actually contradicts itself as of 2006 a new law was made classing it as an open wheeled recreational device - so it could be ticketed etc under normal traffic law.

The police repeatedly made the comment "i don't care i'm getting paid to be here" to myself and the defendant.

The police then applied to appeal the decision on the ground of "we just need to know for the future"

BULL FLIPPING SHIT. They had there answer right there, and how many times is a unicycle going to be riding on the road going through a red light. The only purpose was to hassle this guy and make him take time off work.

Don't ever say anything to the police, it will only come and bite you in the arse - even if it seems like a friendly joke. Its just how they operate, its not personal, but it stinks like a still born baby left out on the deck for a few days.

[Mr Merde]

The warning that went out from the NSA was regarding our discussion this afternoon about Trade Me.

It was a warning all members about data mining and possible disregard of the privacy laws.

Called for a boycott of Trade me.

I for one will be doing so.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Well RM informs me the turret press from reloaders is $250 on it's own, unless I can get it cheaper from elsewhere, I might just have to get the 50th kit for the same price tag.

I can live on that, as I won't be turning out rounds for Africa, will do to start with.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Well RM informs me the turret press from reloaders is $250 on it's own, unless I can get it cheaper from elsewhere, I might just have to get the 50th kit for the same price tag.

I can live on that, as I won't be turning out rounds for Africa, will do to start with.

-Indy

With a single stage press and a bit of organisation you could turn out 50+ rounds an hour.

All you need to do is take things carefully and there will be no problems.

A few hours sitting down at the bench and you will have 300 + rounds.

Fair bit of shootin' there
just take it easy, relax, enjoy the learning. I statred with a single stage press and still manually index my turret press.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

With a single stage press and a bit of organisation you could turn out 50+ rounds an hour.

All you need to do is take things carefully and there will be no problems.

A few hours sitting down at the bench and you will have 300 + rounds.

Fair bit of shootin' there
just take it easy, relax, enjoy the learning. I statred with a single stage press and still manually index my turret press.

Chris

Yea, there's no rush to turn them out, after the lesson you gave us, it looked very relaxing and a great way to sit down and enjoy a week night with a record on with a cup of tea. :)

-Indy

[wbks]

Yea, there's no rush to turn them out, after the lesson you gave us, it looked very relaxing and a great way to sit down and enjoy a week night with a record on with a cup of tea. :)

-IndyYou reloaders are exiting!:lol:

flame suit ON

[Mr Merde]

Yea, there's no rush to turn them out, after the lesson you gave us, it looked very relaxing and a great way to sit down and enjoy a week night with a record on with a cup of tea. :)

-Indy


My first press was a RCBS Orange Crusher single stage press. I mounted it on a movable stand. I used to sit at hthe table in the same room as the family. They would be watching the box and I would be making rounds. it waqsnt too bad. My boys all learnt to safely handle firearms and make ammo for dad, from an early age. Still remember my eldest when he made his first bullet. He was 5 years old and he sat on my knee using the press. I had to take the ones he made to the range and repoort back how they worked. He was so proud that day.

That was 20 years ago.

He usaed to help me take my pistols apart and clean them. He always made sure they were safe, just as dad had shown him, before he did anything with them.

I made my 7mmTCU rounds in a Lee Partner press. As these were very tight tolerance wildcat rounds I felt that using a hand press gave me more control over the process.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

You reloaders are exiting!:lol:

flame suit ON

I know were are

RELOADERS DO IT BY HAND

[Indiana_Jones]

You reloaders are exiting!:lol:

flame suit ON

We English are a very subtle race....

-Indy

[jono035]

Anyone here have or have access to a plasma cutter? Just thinking about trying to make up a hanging target rack for plinking and I just noticed metalman.co.nz has a whole heap of railroad tie-plates which could probably make reasonable centerfire targets... Also had a bit of a scrounge around the metal workshop at Uni but didn't come up with anything too useful...

[wbks]

I know were are

RELOADERS DO IT BY HANDProps... So more about the Mosin Nagants. You guys have said they are too heavy for hunting, but is that strictly speaking?


We English are a very subtle race....

-IndyStrange...

[jono035]

Props... So more about the Mosin Nagants. You guys have said they are too heavy for hunting, but is that strictly speaking?

There was one of the 'sporterised' (what the hell?!) .303 enfields on trademe that I noticed earlier... 19 hours or so left on the auction and going for around $100...

Most people own guns that shoot far better than the owners. (All of mine do!)

Edit: Yeah, strange is a good way to describe the english :p

[Indiana_Jones]

Props... So more about the Mosin Nagants. You guys have said they are too heavy for hunting, but is that strictly speaking?

They're not THAT heavy, you'd start to noticed towards the end of the day when you're tired etc, but if a Russian can march from Stalingrad to Berlin with one, I'm sure you can manage a few days in the bush lol.

Though they are long, so can get caught on branches etc.

Could get the M44 Carbine version :)

hose have a wicked muzzle flash

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

Anyone here have or have access to a plasma cutter? Just thinking about trying to make up a hanging target rack for plinking and I just noticed metalman.co.nz has a whole heap of railroad tie-plates which could probably make reasonable centerfire targets... Also had a bit of a scrounge around the metal workshop at Uni but didn't come up with anything too useful...

Let us know how you get on, we could use some of those at 'the range', unless of course that's what you're already doing.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Props... So more about the Mosin Nagants. You guys have said they are too heavy for hunting, but is that strictly speaking?

Strange...

No gun is too heavy to go hunting with.

In the old days of the African hunters they used to carry 4 bore and 2 bore rifles. They were bloody heavy and weighed in about 25lbs or more.

It depends on how willing you are to carry that particlar rifle.

Dont forget, the lighter the rifle then the more the recoil, usually.

I used to hunt down thew Whakatane with a No4 smle in full wood mode. loved that old rifle. Never had a sling I carried it in my arms.

Chris

[wbks]

There was one of the 'sporterised' (what the hell?!) .303 enfields on trademe that I noticed earlier... 19 hours or so left on the auction and going for around $100...

Most people own guns that shoot far better than the owners. (All of mine do!)

Edit: Yeah, strange is a good way to describe the english :pWell if there really is a huge difference in weight between the two for hunting, than I won't complain about buying a 303 instead, but Nagants look pretty nice and with the bigger caliber and what not. They just look a lot nicer to me and have a nice big caliber, so I was wondering if there really is much difference.

[jono035]

Let us know how you get on, we could use some of those at 'the range', unless of course that's what you're already doing.

-Indy

Well I hadn't really thought of it as 'for' anywhere, but yeah, that was what I had in my head when I started thinking about the heavier plate...

Making the thing will be just as easy to get more targets made. Fletcher steel apparently has offcuts available (such as 6000x2400x80.... 9 ton steel plate anyone?) of all sorts of plate, even some hardened/abrasion resistant plate which would be pretty cool as well, haven't gotten around to calling them about prices, but they have some things listed there for $2-3/kg...

[jono035]

Well if there really is a huge difference in weight between the two for hunting, than I won't complain about buying a 303 instead, but Nagants look pretty nice and with the bigger caliber and what not. They just look a lot nicer to me and have a nice big caliber, so I was wondering if there really is much difference.

Bigger caliber?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54R

Doesn't really look like there is anything in it?

[wbks]

They're not THAT heavy, you'd start to noticed towards the end of the day when you're tired etc, but if a Russian can march from Stalingrad to Berlin with one, I'm sure you can manage a few days in the bush lol. I was thinking that today when wondering if the weight really matters that much. Oh yea, that russian sniper you mentioned is featured in a video game "call of duty: world at war", you get to play as him and blow nazis apart with a 14.5mm russian anti-tank rifle :D

Though they are long, so can get caught on branches etc.

Could get the M44 Carbine version :)

hose have a wicked muzzle flash "flame breathing mosin nagant"...

-IndyTen characters

[Indiana_Jones]

Well if there really is a huge difference in weight between the two for hunting, than I won't complain about buying a 303 instead, but Nagants look pretty nice and with the bigger caliber and what not. They just look a lot nicer to me and have a nice big caliber, so I was wondering if there really is much difference.

Just get both? lol

If you think Mosin looks nice (good call there) go for it.

You can get 'sports' No. 4s for about $100 for a tidy one.

the .303 is a touch bigger then the 7.62x54R if I remember correctly

EDIT: COD:WAW is wicked, I was playing it and using the M1 carbine :D

-Indy

[wbks]

Bigger caliber?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x54R

Doesn't really look like there is anything in it?The casing is quite a bit longer than the .303

[Mr Merde]

Well if there really is a huge difference in weight between the two for hunting, than I won't complain about buying a 303 instead, but Nagants look pretty nice and with the bigger caliber and what not. They just look a lot nicer to me and have a nice big caliber, so I was wondering if there really is much difference.

My Remington Rolling Block rifle I have just been rebuilding will weigh in at about 12-13 lbs.

It is a single shot rifle that fires a 535 gn soft lead bullet propelled by 65 gns of Black powder. The bullets velocity bis about 1400fps. It will reach out to approximately 1500 yards accurately (my eyesight wont).

It is a rebuild buffalo hunting rifle from the 1870's

[jono035]

My Remington Rolling Block rifle I have just been rebuilding will weigh in at about 12-13 lbs.

It is a single shot rifle that fires a 535 gn soft lead bullet propelled by 65 gns of Black powder. The bullets velocity bis about 1400fps. It will reach out to approximately 1500 yards accurately (my eyesight wont).

It is a rebuild buffalo hunting rifle from the 1870's

Someone needs to really get around to importing some buffalo...

wbks - the .303 is 7.7x56R, not sure what you're looking at there but the .303 is 2mm longer?

Anyway, bed time for me, it's my birthday tomorrow so I'm going to the range to mow through some more of Chris' military 9mm ammo and a heap of .22LR with a couple of friends.

[Mr Merde]

The casing is quite a bit longer than the .303

Performance of the 7.62 is about equal to a 30-06 or only a few fps more than a 308.

There is quite an art developing a new round. The .308 cas is a lot smaller than the russian and american rounds but only develops 200fps less (approx). It has the benifit of not needing as large a breech as the previous two so therefore can benifit in quite a bit oif weight saving.

Start reading ballistic tables and you will start to understand performance in ammunition. A dryt subject but you do get to know which round to choose for which purpose.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

Someone needs to really get around to importing some buffalo...

wbks - the .303 is 7.7x56R, not sure what you're looking at there but the .303 is 2mm longer?

Anyway, bed time for me, it's my birthday tomorrow so I'm going to the range to mow through some more of Chris' military 9mm ammo and a heap of .22LR with a couple of friends.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MATE.

:buggerd:

[wbks]

EDIT: COD:WAW is wicked, I was playing it and using the M1 carbine :D

-IndyEliminating Nazi Zombies with an M1 Carbine!:headbang:
jono - Yea, looking at the opposite one... Oops
So its not too heavy, but might get caught on branches. Hmm, well I suppose I could bear the burden of having another rifle...

[Indiana_Jones]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MATE.

:buggerd:

What he said ^^^

And if you want a hunting rifle wbks, find a Martini-Henry (or Enfield) :headbang:

Tell you what, that might be good idea for my next rifle, a Nice MH and get some brass..... :devil2:

This thread is terrible on my wallet lol

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

A 2 bore rifle
weighed in at 35 lbs

loaded with 325 gns of black powder and a 3500 gn projectile (the 50bmg uses a 750 gn bullet) MV about 1500 fps but hit with approximately 17,500 ft·lbf (23,700 N·m) of energy

[jono035]

Hahaha thanks guys, although that smiley was a little worrying, Chris :D

Night all.

(and I know the feeling about pain-in-the-wallet...)

[wbks]

A 2 bore rifle
weighed in at 35 lbs

loaded with 300 gns of black poder and a 3500 gn projectile (the 50bmg uses a 750 gn bullet) MV about 1500 fps but hit with approximately 17,500 ft·lbf (23,700 N·m) of energySo I should aim for something like that to start off with? :)
Just as a rough estimate: Would a smaller projectile with more black powder have more stopping power? Or just better trajectory?

[Indiana_Jones]

A 2 bore rifle
weighed in at 35 lbs

loaded with 300 gns of black poder and a 3500 gn projectile (the 50bmg uses a 750 gn bullet) MV about 1500 fps but hit with approximately 17,500 ft·lbf (23,700 N·m) of energy

Jesus Christ lol

Good thing it doesn't have a free-standing grip, otherwise it'd be deadly.... :rolleyes:

-Indy