The firearm thread

[jono035]

What do you guys think the most common projectile is in NZ? .308?

yeah, that'd be my guess... .223 might be more common in terms of amount of ammo used though?

[Mr Merde]

What do you guys think the most common projectile is in NZ? .308?

A beer glass isnt it?

[ManDownUnder]

What do you guys think the most common projectile is in NZ? .308?

.22 for firing

.243 for reloading at a guess

It's something I have wondered about previously so would love to actually know if you do. My picks would be:

.243
.270
.303
.308

[The Pastor]

Ok 2nd question is where do u buy your premade projectiles from?

[ManDownUnder]

Ok 2nd question is where do u buy your premade projectiles from?

from me. I'm reloading for fun and profit What do you need?

or do you mean projectiles... rather than whole rounds (oops). In which case... anywhere that's cheapest

[Mr Merde]

Sorry to say this but there are a lot being sold on Trade Me.

Barnes, nosler, etc

[jono035]

www.outdoorsupplies.co.nz seems to have a pretty good selection listed...

[vdog]

What do you guys think the most common projectile is in NZ? .308?

Asked the old geezers at work,.....we manufacture firearms here in Auckland,...common opinion is .22LR, however for reloading .308 would have to be the big winner however, due to it's use in both the target and hunting fields, and due to the fact tat in the period of 1990 to 2000 the influx of cheap NATO 7.62 ammunition that was flooded onto the NZ market.........

Though personal choice would have to be .300 ultramag out of a #1 ruger, just so after 15 rounds you know who's been beating the SH*T out of your shoulder

[The Pastor]

Asked the old geezers at work,.....we manufacture firearms here in Auckland,...common opinion is .22LR, however for reloading .308 would have to be the big winner however, due to it's use in both the target and hunting fields, and due to the fact tat in the period of 1990 to 2000 the influx of cheap NATO 7.62 ammunition that was flooded onto the NZ market.........

Though personal choice would have to be .300 ultramag out of a #1 ruger, just so after 15 rounds you know who's been beating the SH*T out of your shoulder
what company do you work with? wasnt aware of any firearm manufacture companys in auckland

[Mr Merde]

...... just so after 15 rounds you know who's been beating the SH*T out of your shoulder

Thats how I felt with the 45-70 the other day.
535 gn projectile over 64 gns of FFg Bp
The rifle being the cadet Springfield which was shorter in the butt and in the barrel than the full length rifle and propably about 1 lb lighter than the rifle.

The cadet was designed for the US Cadet forces at Westpoint and Annapolis etc so therefore was made smaller and lighter for boys from the age of 16 years old to be able to handle easily.

The standard round for this rifle was 405gn projectile over 55 gns of black powder.

No wonder my shoulder took a beating from the steel butt plate.

Stupid me carried on to use 40 rounds.

My shoulder hurt like hell and the dull ache didnt stop for 4 days.

[The Pastor]

Thats how I felt with the 45-70 the other day.
535 gn projectile over 64 gns of FFg Bp
The rifle being the cadet Springfield which was shorter in the butt and in the barrel than the full length rifle and propably about 1 lb lighter than the rifle.

The cadet was designed for the US Cadet forces at Westpoint and Annapolis etc so therefore was made smaller and lighter for boys from the age of 16 years old to be able to handle easily.

The standard round for this rifle was 405gn projectile over 55 gns of black powder.

No wonder my shoulder took a beating from the steel butt plate.

Stupid me carried on to use 40 rounds.

My shoulder hurt like hell and the dull ache didnt stop for 4 days.
looks like your getting soft chirs, might have to follow indy and buy a cushion for your stock!

[Mr Merde]

looks like your getting soft chirs, might have to follow indy and buy a cushion for your stock!

I was actually thinking of making a leather wrap for the butstock and lacing it on.

This is period correct and will spread the force of the recoil more evenly over the shoulder.

The other option is to build up that shoulder so that there is more muscle and fat there and so absorb the recoil into that rather than directly onto the shoulder bone.

[The Pastor]

I was actually thinking of making a leather wrap for the butstock and lacing it on.

This is period correct and will spread the force of the recoil more evenly over the shoulder.

The other option is to build up that shoulder so that there is more muscle and fat there and so absorb the recoil into that rather than directly onto the shoulder bone.
Yeah ive seen some guys do that sorta thing, as well as straping up the levers for something on marlin owners forums.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,50263.0.html etc

i think those guys just bought theres from http://www.levergunleather.com/

[Mr Merde]

Yeah ive seen some guys do that sorta thing, as well as straping up the levers for something on marlin owners forums.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,50263.0.html etc

i think those guys just bought theres from http://www.levergunleather.com/

The leather on the rifles lever serves 3 purposes

1) it stops slipping whilst rapidly acioning the rifle

2) It fills in the space inside the lever giving you a firmer push on the lever

3) it looks good

[jono035]

The leather on the rifles lever serves 3 purposes

1) it stops slipping whilst rapidly acioning the rifle

2) It fills in the space inside the lever giving you a firmer push on the lever

3) it looks good

bit easier on your fingers too if the action is stiff or you're firing alot I'd guess?

[The Pastor]

yeah i want to order some of that guys stuff, but its far to expensive for me haha

[Mr Merde]

yeah i want to order some of that guys stuff, but its far to expensive for me haha

Friend of mine from the CAS shooting, goes by the name of 1I (one eye) makes all these things.

He makes some of the best holster work I ve seen in NZ

He lives over Henderson way

Chris

[Swoop]

Welcome to this thread's intermission.

Feel free to peruse the pictorial intermission and then return to your thread.
Thank you for your time.

[JDK]

One Eye a leather fella as well ummmmm he sell on trade me ?? there is some one on there that dose rigs as well just handy to know these things when new shooter ask about rigs belts etc etc
there was another fella called bootlegger but don't think he dose leather work any more
JDK

[Mr Merde]

One Eye a leather fella as well ummmmm he sell on trade me ?? there is some one on there that dose rigs as well just handy to know these things when new shooter ask about rigs belts etc etc
there was another fella called bootlegger but don't think he dose leather work any more
JDK

No he doesnt sell on trade me.

He does beautiful work, made to measure. Reasonably priced.

Catch him at the nationals or at Trails End, Carterton.

You could probably get in touch with him via CAS here in NZ.

[JDK]

Yea i can track him down not going to the nationals wrong time of year for me down here with work also my southern passport will not work in the north so i'm told and the exchange rate between north and south is kinda rough got told i'd only get 20 cents in the dollar a few said they would do a deal at 50 cents in the dollar but not to tell to many about it

[The Pastor]

reloading equipment turned up :D

[jono035]

reloading equipment turned up :D

sweeeet, if you've got any questions about any of the setup just throw me a line. It's all pretty straightforward though.

Before you start doing anything give the ram a good soak with WD40, it'll smooth up in no time.

[The Pastor]

yeah i'll figure it all out once i get the 3P's

[Supertwin Don]

In sorting through my assorted junk ready for my return to NZ:2thumbsup in December, I have found my old little red book "Firearms License" (signed in1984)
Question - is this still valid, or have they changed the rules?:whistle:

[The Pastor]

probably not mate, you'd have to relicence it, best bet is to ring the auckland city firearms officer, or send him an email

[vdog]

what company do you work with? wasnt aware of any firearm manufacture companys in auckland

Barnard Precision in Avondale, check out www.barnard.co.nz, pretty poo's website, because it's an off the shelf do it yourself and with all the cnc programming I havent got much time to be 'webmaster' as well (I gots to ride if u get my drift!!)........by the way if you are after cnc machined brass projectiles I may be able to procure

[Swoop]

In sorting through my assorted junk ready for my return to NZ:2thumbsup in December, I have found my old little red book "Firearms License" (signed in1984)
Question - is this still valid, or have they changed the rules?:whistle:
You now have a collector's piece!
The "lifetime licence" that we paid for, has been replaced with ten-year licences. These are credit-card like in appearance.
Keep hold of your book type licence as it may be required to re-issue your licence when you get back here.

[Mr Merde]

OK,

Here goes.

I have 4 pistols and a rifle for sale.

2 of the pistols are Uberti clones of 1873 Model P Colts chambered for .357, they are in stainless steel with factory engraving.

For these the asking price is $600 each.

The other two are Uberti fast shot revolvers in .45 colt.
$600 each or for the pair and the holsters to go with them $1300

All pistols are in immaculate condition.

There is also a Uberti copy of the 1873 Winchester in .45 colt. This is the short rifle not the carbine.

Very good nick. I'd buy it myself if I had the spare cash.

If anyone is interested then PM me.

Chris

[jono035]

I have 4 pistols and a rifle for sale.

I assume this is selling on behalf? I don't remember seeing a pair of .357 stainless revolvers in your collection...

Are the pistol pairs consecutive serial numbers or anything? The .357s sound interesting but 2 might be a little excessive and I wouldn't want to break up a pair!

Edit: What is he wanting for the .45 LC lever action?

[Mr Merde]

I assume this is selling on behalf? I don't remember seeing a pair of .357 stainless revolvers in your collection...

Are the pistol pairs consecutive serial numbers or anything? The .357s sound interesting but 2 might be a little excessive and I wouldn't want to break up a pair!

Edit: What is he wanting for the .45 LC lever action?

Yes it is on behalf of my mate.

$1200 for the rifle

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1873_short_rifle.jpg

[jono035]

Yes it is on behalf of my mate.

Any idea which model the .357 is? The cattleman?

[JDK]

Hi ya
I'll ask around the .38/.357 full stainless or just the finsh ??
i check the traps later to day see what i find out fer ya

the fast shots for people who don't know are the factory tuned guns have not used them myself tho ment to be good

JDK

[Mr Merde]

Yes the .357 is the Cattleman and they are both full stainless models

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1873_cattleman_engraved_nickel_walnut.jpg (http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1873_cattleman_engraved_nickel_walnut_lg.jpg)

[Mr Merde]

I must point out that these arent pictures of the actual firearms. I have taken them from the Uberti website for examples sake.

[jono035]

I must point out that these arent pictures of the actual firearms. I have taken them from the Uberti website for examples sake.

Yeah, no worries. Disregard the question about their condition, I just noticed you mentioned that above... :Oops:

[Mr Merde]

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1873_sporting_rifle.jpg


Sorry but after talking to my mate it turns out that it is not the short rifle but the sporting rifle as pictured above.

24 1/2 inch barrel

[Mr Merde]

The pistols are all 5" barrels

The .357 pistols are stainless steel engraved and are about 5 years old. My mate has never fired them since he bought them 4 years ago. They were going to be a present for his then wife. They are not consecutively numbered but close.

He would prefer to sell them as a pair.


Chris

[Drunken Monkey]

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1873_sporting_rifle.jpg


Sorry but after talking to my mate it turns out that it is not the short rifle but the sporting rifle as pictured above.

24 1/2 inch barrel

Either way, that's a fine looking rifle. Stop tempting me with your toys!

[jono035]

Either way, that's a fine looking rifle. Stop tempting me with your toys!

It certainly is. All of those pistols are an absolute steal as well...

Chris: I assume he is going to throw an add up in the bullshooter? If he wants I can print something out and stick it up at CSI.

[The Pastor]

hey guys big party tonight, indy is having his flatwarming.

being that its a flat of complete morons they have forgotten to invite ANYONE.

(i found out through indys brother for petes sake! hahaha)

So your all more than welcome to come have a few quite drinks, and a few not so quite drinks - as long as you byo.

pm Me/indy/magua for the addy - its on the north shore in birken head.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...d.php?t=109062

[jono035]

So Indy moved out of his parents place and is moving in with Magua (Duncan?)...

He's all grown up-like, it's adorable.

Birkenhead? Seriously? How the hell am I supposed to get home from Northcote when completely slaughtered?

Edit: And your link doesn't work, http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=109062

[Indiana_Jones]

So Indy moved out of his parents place and is moving in with Magua (Duncan?)...

He's all grown up-like, it's adorable.

Birkenhead? Seriously? How the hell am I supposed to get home from Northcote when completely slaughtered?

Edit: And your link doesn't work, http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=109062

I havn't lived at home for years? lol

You can sleep on the floor if need be :niceone:

-Indy

[jono035]

I havn't lived at home for years? lol

You can sleep on the floor if need be :niceone:

-Indy

Really? Apologies then, must have misunderstood a comment when I was helping butcher RM's bike...

Gotta be home, awake and coherent by 9am tomorrow so no floors for me (at least not by choice...)

Will just taxi it back home and be done with it if I can find a ride out there...

[Swoop]

Yay for communism...

The Russian firm Izhmash (Izhevsk Mechanical Works) holds the patents for the AK-47, and it is going broke because of all the illegal copies of its weapons being produced worldwide. Izhmash is having little success in trying to force companies in Bulgaria, Romania, Poland, Israel, China and the United States to pay licensing fees for the AK-47s they produce. The typical defense is that it is a much improved rifle, with only a superficial similarity to the Izhmash AK-47. Some claim that Russia abandoned the AK-47 design in the 1970s, when they switched to the 5.45mm AK-74. Actually, the original AK-47 design was replaced in 1963, at least in Russia, by the similar (in appearance) AKM.

Izhmash is 201 years old, and was originally founded by the Czarist government as a state arsenal, for the production of military weapons. In the 1920s, the firm began to produce motorcycles as well, and later, automobiles, and eventually machine tools. It has long been a major manufacturer of Russian military rifles, machine-guns and pistols.

During the Soviet period (1923-91), there were patent laws on the books, but these were generally not observed, especially when it came to foreign technology. The Soviets would respect patents when it suited their purposes (that is, it was cheaper to get help from the patent holder to implement a technology, than it was to just steal it and figure it out), but generally the concept of intellectual property was ignored. Having allowed that kind of thinking to gain some traction, the Russians have had a hard time enforcing rights to Soviet era Russian inventions in a post-Soviet world.

Izhmash is also suffering from poor management, and competition for all of its product (machine tools, other metal working products and lots of metal items). But it's weapons patents, which should have been a prime source of income, has turned into a morass of litigation and legal expenses.

[The Pastor]

anyone on here got experiance with hornadys custom grade new dimension dies?

I can't seem to get the crimp working. I can follow the instructions up to where is says adjust the seater die body until you have propper crimp.

I adjust it with 1/8th turns and it seems like nothing is happening then i get a squished case. What dose a propper crimp look like?

I've destroyed 5 cases so far lol. its all good apart from the crimp!

[jono035]

anyone on here got experiance with hornadys custom grade new dimension dies?

I can't seem to get the crimp working. I can follow the instructions up to where is says adjust the seater die body until you have propper crimp.

I adjust it with 1/8th turns and it seems like nothing is happening then i get a squished case. What dose a propper crimp look like?

I've destroyed 5 cases so far lol. its all good apart from the crimp!

I had another check and those dies are a roll crimp, so they should adjust the same as we were talking about on saturday night. A proper crimp would have the bullet seated so the case mouth is at the middle of the cannelure and the mouth is slightly tapered into the recess of the cannelure.

What is the cannelure like on the bullets and where are you seating them to, relative to it? If there is no cannelure or the bullet isn't at the right depth then the roll crimp will either crush the bullet or the case in the crimping process apparently.

Did you check out that link I left on your profile?

If that all fails then let me know and I'll cruise around and check it out.

[Indiana_Jones]

I hope Izhevsk doesn't go under :(

-Indy

[The Pastor]

reloading sure aint a quick process

[JDK]

Yea at the start ya think ya have 18 thumbs and 2 left hands but it's not too bad once ya get the hang of reloading then ya spend hours on the range trying diffrent loads out can't get a brand of powder so start over again

JDK

[wbks]

Are subsonics just the same casing with less powder/a heavier projectile?

[jono035]

Are subsonics just the same casing with less powder/a heavier projectile?

Yep. In some cases you can get just as much energy with a slow projectile, in others you get much less.

[wbks]

Still worser trajectory. Okay, so hand loading you would actually save money for them, rather than pay more... What a rip for factory rounds! Hey, anyone know where there are some goats around here need shooting? Spent 3 days with one in the house as a "pet". Got no problems with blowing away one of these little bastards now...

[The Pastor]

there is tons in taranaki, but no one will let you shoot them on their land due to them being worth about $60 each - they heard them.

Much more in the doc land, but they can be pretty hard to sneak up on in the dense bush. - but at least you can smell them from ages away :P

[wbks]

there is tons in taranaki, but no one will let you shoot them on their land due to them being worth about $60 each - they heard them.

Much more in the doc land, but they can be pretty hard to sneak up on in the dense bush. - but at least you can smell them from ages away :PNeed to get permission for that?

[Drunken Monkey]

I'm surprised this discussion hasn't moved the the weekend just passed; did no-one else here go to the Auckland gun fair?

A lot of .303's and similar vintage rifles. Some WWII paraphernalia and stuff. Not a lot of stuff really, didn't take long to eyeball the wares. My mate is after one of those new issue replica FG-42's to complement his new collection. I just wanted to loose off some rounds from the M1 Garand to see if the clip really does sound like the noise on the movies...

[The Pastor]

Need to get permission for that?
for doc land? yeah need a permit, just the case of a quick phonecall to the doc office and u'll get one - they are free

[jono035]

I'm surprised this discussion hasn't moved the the weekend just passed; did no-one else here go to the Auckland gun fair?

A lot of .303's and similar vintage rifles. Some WWII paraphernalia and stuff. Not a lot of stuff really, didn't take long to eyeball the wares. My mate is after one of those new issue replica FG-42's to complement his new collection. I just wanted to loose off some rounds from the M1 Garand to see if the clip really does sound like the noise on the movies...

Yeah, Indy mentioned on saturday night that the gun show was on this weekend, meant to check it out on sunday but completely forgot... Bit of a piss-off, really.

[Swoop]

Slightly larger than a firearm... but interesting stuff.

For an idea of what range and accuracy we are talking about here, imagine setting up one of these artillery pieces at the base of the Auckland skytower. A round is fired and can hit the Miranda fish & chip shop... with pinpoint accuracy!
:gob:


The U.S. Marines, like the U.S. Army, has been putting their artillery units through intensive training, so that they can get back to using their 155mm howitzers again. For some veteran artillerymen, they are firing their 155mm guns for the first time in four or five years, now that they are being sent to Afghanistan instead of Iraq. The marines are putting over 4,000 artillerymen through the training, and sending several of their 43 firing batteries (each with six M777 155mm towed artillery pieces) to Afghanistan.

In 2004, when the counter-terrorism campaign began in Iraq, it was quickly realized that artillery units were not needed much. Smart bombs were far more accurate and effective. There was a GPS guided artillery shell in the works (Excalibur) but it did not show up until 2007. So in the meantime, most army and marine artillery units were temporarily converted to light infantry, and performed security and counter-terrorism tasks. At the same time, many Cold War era artillery units back in the United States were disbanded, made obsolete with the arrival of GPS guided shells and MLRS rockets.

While the Excalibur proved useful in Iraq, it didn't increase the workload of the few 155mm howitzers that were being used there. But Afghanistan was a different story, with the troops spread over a much larger area. This was the kind of situation that the new M777 towed 155mm howitzer was made for. So the army and marine artillery battalions attached to combat brigades are again training on their howitzers, and preparing to operate as artillerymen again, in Afghanistan.

Four years ago, Canada brought six M777 155mm towed artillery pieces to Afghanistan when they realized that the older 105mm guns were not up to the task. The older 105mm howitzers lacked the accuracy and firepower needed. The 105mm shells weighed 33 pounds, versus the 90 pound 155mm ones. The M777s were needed in a hurry, so Canada got them from the U.S. Marine Corps, which has used the weapon for nearly a decade. Canada also got the new GPS guided 155mm Excalibur shell two years ago. Excalibur makes 155mm shells as accurate as smart bombs, and is considered necessary when artillery is used in proximity to civilians. Excalibur also reduces the number of shells used. The Excalibur also doubles the M777 range, to 40 kilometers, without losing any accuracy.

The M777 is a British design and, at four tons, is the lightest 155mm towed howitzer ever fielded. A lightweight 105mm howitzer weighs about two tons. M777 Fire control is handled by computerized system that allows faster response time and more accurate shooting. The Canadians have found the M777 accurate and reliable. In addition to hitting enemy troops, the Canadians have also found the M777 an effective negotiating tool. When discussing relationships with local tribal leaders, Canadian commanders have sometimes had an M777 put a shell in a nearby field or hill side, on command, to demonstrate what the Canadians have at their disposal. Afghans understand that sort of thing.

[no_8wire]

What calibre do people most commonly use for a deer rifle?

I have always had a thing for wooded 303's, but what do other people recommend for a good alround gun?

[Mr Merde]

What calibre do people most commonly use for a deer rifle?

I have always had a thing for wooded 303's, but what do other people recommend for a good alround gun?

How long is a piece of string?

You will get a myriad of answers as like all shooters we all have our favourites.

.243
7mm-08
.270
.308
.303
25-06
6.5 x 55

Take your pick. They are all good.

[wbks]

Why do target shooters (only short range I'm assuming) use those funky iron sights?

[JDK]

ummm i know the sights i used to have on my .22 indoor rifle could shoot 1 hole groups eazy even on my 45/70 they work OK think also alot work on your eye will find center so putting a ring arouns a black dot is kinda simple as long as the eye is getting the right amount of light and the sights are set to suit how your eye can center the pic it suppriseing how well they work ..
but keep in mind the distance is the same all the time and the pic ya see dose not change during a stage of shooting

try keeping a cross hair on a dot cutting it in to 1/4's it's a tad harder than just keeping a ring around a dot

scopes clearer pic of what ya shooting at some of the times i think covering up eye probs i know my own eyes some iron sights will give a fuzzy pic where as my scopes a crisp and clear pic ..

[Mr Merde]

Why do target shooters (only short range I'm assuming) use those funky iron sights?

When looking at an object through a hole it is instinctive for your brain to centre that object in the centre of the circle. So provided you do not change the position of your eye inh relation to the circle then you will be aligning the picture the same with every shot.

Check out the Soule type rear sights. A cup with a hole in it travels vertically up and down a pole. With these sights it is possible to get MOA at 1000 yards +.

Also you will find that the smaller the hole the crisper the foresight will be when observing it through the eye cup. Something to do with extraneous light. I am not an optical engineer so I cant really explain it.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

On another note.

It is with great regret that I have to inform some of you that the other half and I have decided it is time to sell up and move on.

After 3 years at the homestead we are finding it more and more a bind to travel too and from work.

That and my worsening health situation we feel that it is time we moved back into a town or at least the burbs.

So Pukekohe here we come.

It is going to take a few months before this all goes through so there will un doubtablky be plenty of time for quite a few more shoots at the Onewhero range,

Chris

[The Pastor]

Bit of shame, you have to move chirs, but thats life eh. Your place certainly has seen alot of shooting & good times.

If you need a hand with the move im sure myself and indy would be more than happy to help! - just in december when i get my licence bacK!

[The Pastor]

the north shore is a real nice place to live btw :D

[jono035]

That's a pity Chris, you have a beautiful house there and a pretty damn decent gun range to go with it!

If you need a hand with anything during the process just let me know. Plenty happy to spend a weekend hauling boxes in the station wagon or whatever else is required... (perhaps looking after some weaponry :innocent:)

[jono035]

the north shore is a real nice place to live btw :D

No it isn't, there's this hooligan on a cbr250 that's always tearing the place up, haven't seen him in a few weeks though :p

[jono035]

What calibre do people most commonly use for a deer rifle?

I have always had a thing for wooded 303's, but what do other people recommend for a good alround gun?

I don't own any centerfire rifles but the tried and true .308 winchester seems to be the cartridge of choice for the 4-5 deer hunters among my friends and family.

[wbks]

Would one of those (sexy) mossberg ATR100's on guncity they are selling for $900 lose much value over a year or so if kept in good cond and only a few hundred rounds through it?

[Mr Merde]

Would one of those (sexy) mossberg ATR100's on guncity they are selling for $900 lose much value over a year or so if kept in good cond and only a few hundred rounds through it?

You dont buy new guns to make money.

Like a car or new bike. As soon as you take it out of the shop you loose money

[wbks]

You dont buy new guns to make money.

Like a car or new bike. As soon as you take it out of the shop you loose moneyI don't need to make money... I'm planning on a trip to the UK in the not too distant future, so I was wondering if I was to dip out of the money for that, would I lose it, or just drop a hundred or two?

[jono035]

I don't need to make money... I'm planning on a trip to the UK in the not too distant future, so I was wondering if I was to dip out of the money for that, would I lose it, or just drop a hundred or two?

Best not to get into that situation in the first place, you will definitely lose money on it, especially if you get into the situation where you have to sell it to fund something else...

[wbks]

Well I can make up the price of the rifle in a few months, anyhow(probably the rest of the year, but...), just wondering if every penny will need to go into refunding me! Would just mean no track days!

[jono035]

Well I can make up the price of the rifle in a few months, anyhow, but just wondering if every penny will need to go into refunding me! Would just mean no track days!

It's best to save money until you have enough to cover toys as well as unforseen/forseen expenses and then spend it. Sure, you'll have a few months less to play with your new toy, but it'll be quicker to get the second new toy because of it etc. etc.

[Indiana_Jones]

It's best to save money until you have enough to cover toys as well as unforseen/forseen expenses and then spend it. Sure, you'll have a few months less to play with your new toy, but it'll be quicker to get the second new toy because of it etc. etc.

Jono is old and wise, listen to him.

-Indy

[The Pastor]

Well I can make up the price of the rifle in a few months, anyhow(probably the rest of the year, but...), just wondering if every penny will need to go into refunding me! Would just mean no track days!
buy the gun you want 2nd hand, you'll save a ton!

[jono035]

Jono is old and wise, listen to him.

-Indy

Damn straight you young whippersnapper, now get the hell off my lawn! (mutters something about hoons on loud motorcycles)

RM: Yeah, all of my guns are 2nd hand and worth easily less than half what a new one would be (except the target pistol, thats more like 2/3)...

[Wolf]

Only ever bought two rifles brand new - a Brno .22 (which later got stolen without the bolt and mags) and the Luxus version of the same Brno .22 (walnut stock) to replace it.

So I have a Brno with 2 5-round mags, 1 10-round mag and 2 bolts that will fit it. Not at all interested in the resale value, that Brno's a keeper (I thought the first one was, actually, but some dirty tea-leaf thought otherwise...)

Bought a couple of air pistols brand new, but they were fairly inexpensive (especially compared with what I spent on the Brno Luxus and that was discounted).

[wbks]

Jono is old and wise, listen to him.

-IndySounds like good advice.


buy the gun you want 2nd hand, you'll save a ton!Would if I could see them around.

[JDK]

Sorry to hear that chris if ya got any irons that need to find a new home ya got my email i'll set the traps for ya

oh yea how did ya mate get on with his ??

JDK

[Swoop]

You dont buy new guns to make money.

Like a car or new bike. As soon as you take it out of the shop you loose money
Oddly enough...
I bought a rifle and a shotgun a while back and they appear to have increased in value. Still unfired.
I did not expect the value to go up, but then the police are doing that all by themselves.

[jono035]

Took a huge pile of the new ammo to the range, fired off 50 rounds of the plated projectiles working up from 20% below max load to max load and then blew through another 45 lead projectiles in 3 full mags just for fun.

About 4.4 grains of AP70N seems to be the best with the plated projectiles which is about 10% below max load.

The lead didn't seem to be as innaccurate as last time, still not great but all ending up on the paper, even with me seeing how fast I can get through the mag. By hell it left a huge mess in the barrel though, took about 20 mins of scrubbing to get it all out afterwards, too.

After 30 rounds in under a minute the RO was muttering under his breath and turned on the big extractor fans to clear out all the lube-smoke :D great fun. Pretty even spread across the target with 2 rounds unaccounted for.

Had a chat with the guy who had the Uberti cattleman 45LC in a few weeks back. Seems he knows of the revolvers your mate is looking to shift along, Chris. Now if I could just remember the guys name, damnit.

[Mr Merde]

I've been a busy boy.

Here is the list of recent purchases

1883 Springfield Cadet Rifle in 45-70

http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/607/long/pix/cadetexc.jpg
Pair of Uberti Open Top revolvers in .38 spl. Trigger guard, grip frame nickle silver finished, ebony grips inlaid with silver motif. With 1000 .38 brass cases

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1871_72_open_top7half.jpg (http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1871_72_open_top7half_lg.jpg)

Baikal SxS Coach Gun- Hammered

http://www.rpgfirearms.com.au/HI%20RES/BAIKAL%20COACHGUN.jpg

Dillon RL 550B reloading press with set up for .38\.357 and .45 colt


http://www.rushusa.com/images/pictures/jpg/dpp/dpp-rl550jpg.jpg

MEC shotgun reloading press- fully progressive
http://media.midwayusa.com/HighRes/474239.jpg

[jono035]

That's a nice set of acquisitions there. The RL550s are nice, when I decide I need a bit more reloading speed that is what I'll be getting.

The springfield and the open top ubertis are very fine looking pieces.

[Mr Merde]

Looking forward to taking possesion of the coach gun.

My first shotgun ever was a crapped out Spanish SxS boxlock, hammerless. Barrels cut back to 18".

Before I played with the mechanism and screwed it up I used it in CAS and for clays.

My club at the time used to put me at the end of a line of shooters for the reason, that if everyone else missed they knew I would take the clay.

Still have the thing sitting in my storage area.

[The Pastor]

thats some very nice toys chris! Progessive press - that means fully automatic?

[Mr Merde]

thats some very nice toys chris! Progessive press - that means fully automatic?

It will feed the primers etc by itself. All I have to to is keep feediong cases in. For every pull of the handle 1 shell is made.

Same with the Dillon. According to Dillon themselves the RL550B is capable of 400-600 rouns an hour, as long as I keep feeding in the components.

With regards to the Open Tops. I've been after them for a while now but out of my price range. Current owner made me a deal I couldnt say no to. They come with two barrels each. 5" and 7". Been worked over by a really good gunsmith. Cylinders lock up very tightly, indexing is exact to the right place and the trigger has been lightened to about 4lbs and is as crisp as breaking glass. Rear sight has been opened up to give more view of the foresight.

[jono035]

thats some very nice toys chris! Progessive press - that means fully automatic?

The 550 is a 'manually indexed progressive', meaning you rotate the carousel with the cartridges on it by hand. The 650 is a 'fully progressive' meaning that the carousel rotates by itself with each pull of the handle. You can convert them either way, but that's how they are out of the box. Generally you'd use a 650 with a case feeder as well so you don't have to manually add cases to maximise the use.

550: Index the carousel, put a new case in, place a bullet to be seated, pull the lever.
650: place a bullet, pull the lever.

You can also outfit them both with automatic bullet feeders to make it so all you do is yank on the handle.

The trade-off is that apparently the 650 is much slower to convert between different cartridges (even more so with the bullet feeder) and there are lots of people who say that with practice they are just as fast with the 550 really.

[JDK]

Baikal SxS Coach Gun- Hammered
that one with the fake hammers ??? i just brought one a while back for my better 1/2 tight wee gun nice wood on it tho just needs a few 1000 rounds though it to break it in

JDK

all this cowboy stuff are yer getting back in the saddle ????

[Mr Merde]

Baikal SxS Coach Gun- Hammered
that one with the fake hammers ??? i just brought one a while back for my better 1/2 tight wee gun nice wood on it tho just needs a few 1000 rounds though it to break it in

JDK

all this cowboy stuff are yer getting back in the saddle ????


No this one has the working hammers. Yanks know it as the

Bounty Hunter II

I am involved with a club in Sth Auckland and we are still trying to get planning permission for a new range. RMA is a bitch.

The club is made up of 25 Cowboys at the moment.

WHEN we finally get it up and running we will be applying to host the Northern and North Island CAS events as well as running our own events.

Look for us in the future.

Yes I will be involved. I will always have rifles and shotguns. Pistols as long as I can. Money has a lot to do with participation in events.

With going to a new house we should be freed up enough to be able to afford to go to a lot more events. Time will not be spent on the upkeep of the property to the detriment of shooting.

Hopefully the health will improve, I'm working on it.

Chris

[JDK]

Good on ya mate

yea the bounty 2 is the full hammered one if the wood work etc etc is the same as the one i brought it will be a pritty wee shooter ..

the range certs are a pain to get but worth it in the long run not a fella called "Kid" tied up with you fellas same first name as yer self

catch ya
JDK

[Mr Merde]

Good on ya mate

yea the bounty 2 is the full hammered one if the wood work etc etc is the same as the one i brought it will be a pritty wee shooter ..

the range certs are a pain to get but worth it in the long run not a fella called "Kid" tied up with you fellas same first name as yer self

catch ya
JDK

Kid is a friend. He shoots at the Kaikohe club up north. One hell of a nice fella. One hell of a fancy dresser. Gunfighter.

My CAS name is Dai Sloe

[JDK]

HAHAHA ya will laugh and laugh about this same names same area etc etc etc etc
i was thinking to my self ummmm i'm almost sure this Mr merde fella is an RG up north
so i sent Kid an email and asked if he was you HAHAAH turned out naaa he's not on KB
funny wee world at times
JDK

[jono035]

9mm malfunctions and shoots 3 people. (http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/9mm-malfunctions-at-lakeland-gun-range-shoots-three-people/1041591#comments)

Guess that's why you never take your hands off a loaded pistol under NZ range rules!

[Indiana_Jones]

9mm malfunctions and shoots 3 people. (http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/9mm-malfunctions-at-lakeland-gun-range-shoots-three-people/1041591#comments)

Guess that's why you never take your hands off a loaded pistol under NZ range rules!

Shit, I guess guns do kill people! :buggerd:

-Indy

[jono035]

Shit, I guess guns do kill people! :buggerd:

-Indy

Yeah, especially given that everyone survived ;)

[Indiana_Jones]

Yeah, especially given that everyone survived ;)

It was going easy on them bro...

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

Slightly larger than a firearm... but interesting stuff.

For an idea of what range and accuracy we are talking about here, imagine setting up one of these artillery pieces at the base of the Auckland skytower. A round is fired and can hit the Miranda fish & chip shop... with pinpoint accuracy!
:gob:


pfft from a static platform? Childs play, do it from a dynamic shifting platform!

<img src=http://www.navy.gov.au/gallery/images/Anz-0301408.jpg>
HMAS ANZAC was on the gun line, for some reason we didn't go, supporting the invasion for Iraq.

They thought they were not doing too well in the first shoot as the spotter on the ground kept calling corrections........ thing was the first round hit the target so he just moved the fall of shot around by calling corrections rather than sending new fire missions.

[The Pastor]

so if my max load is 43 grains, should i start off at 38.7 gr and work my way up from there?

what sorta increments should i go up in? up in 0.5gr increments?

how many rounds should i make of each one? 6? - 2 3 shot groups?

[jono035]

so if my max load is 43 grains, should i start off at 38.7 gr and work my way up from there?

what sorta increments should i go up in? up in 0.5gr increments?

how many rounds should i make of each one? 6? - 2 3 shot groups?

I had a listed starting load, so I chose 5 evenly spaced loads and made 10 of each.

How many steps you do and how many of each you load probably depends on how expensive it is and how many rounds you think you need to fire to be confident of how accurate the ammo is.

Maybe start off with 5 different loads going from 39 to 43 in 1 gr increments with 3 shots each? Once you have a 'feel' for what those are like to shoot and they are working nicely in your gun with no issues then choose a couple and load up a few more. If you want to keep the loads high-power then choose a couple of the higher ones and make 6 rounds of each to test them a little more thoroughly.

[The Pastor]

i have 86 cases, i'll make 10 rounds at 0.5 grain group.

its a bit moot as i didnt trim the cases, and i've already primed them all - no way im de priming them so i can trim them! took me over an hour!

[jono035]

i have 86 cases, i'll make 10 rounds at 0.5 grain group.

its a bit moot as i didnt trim the cases, and i've already primed them all - no way im de priming them so i can trim them! took me over an hour!

Gotta be careful with de-priming primed cases, too! Was suggesting the case trimming as why you may have been having crimping issues? Case length doesn't matter for a taper crimp but does for a roll crimp. Longer cases will crimp more, shorter will crimp less.

Crimping issue all sorted?

I wouldn't load too many to start with. I did 10 because that is 2 of my usual strings of 5 rounds. For a rifle you shouldn't need 10 rounds at each powder division. 6 would be heaps, 3 would be enough I would have thought?

I think you're mostly doing it at the different levels so you can slowly work up to max with hopefully some warning signs at lower pressure if you've got something wrong (temp sensitive powder, bullet seated too low or in the rifling etc.). You shouldn't need to test every 0.5gr change 10 times, at least not to start with. If you get halfway through and find you're getting some issues then thats a lot of cartridges to break down again!

[The Pastor]

Gotta be careful with de-priming primed cases, too! Was suggesting the case trimming as why you may have been having crimping issues? Case length doesn't matter for a taper crimp but does for a roll crimp. Longer cases will crimp more, shorter will crimp less.

Crimping issue all sorted?

I wouldn't load too many to start with. I did 10 because that is 2 of my usual strings of 5 rounds. For a rifle you shouldn't need 10 rounds at each powder division. 6 would be heaps, 3 would be enough I would have thought?

I think you're mostly doing it at the different levels so you can slowly work up to max with hopefully some warning signs at lower pressure if you've got something wrong (temp sensitive powder, bullet seated too low or in the rifling etc.). You shouldn't need to test every 0.5gr change 10 times, at least not to start with. If you get halfway through and find you're getting some issues then thats a lot of cartridges to break down again!
im not a good shot tho, might take 10 to get it on the paper ;)

[jono035]

im not a good shot tho, might take 10 to get it on the paper ;)

Hahaha fair enough, just don't do what I did and end up with a hundred loaded rounds that are relatively useless...

Are you going to test accuracy by shooting from a rest?

[The Pastor]

Hahaha fair enough, just don't do what I did and end up with a hundred loaded rounds that are relatively useless...

Are you going to test accuracy by shooting from a rest?
I wouldnt mind a rest, it would come in handy for reloading - takes all my errors in shooting out of the equation but money is real tight for me atm, im buying bike bits!

[jono035]

I wouldnt mind a rest, it would come in handy for reloading - takes all my errors in shooting out of the equation but money is real tight for me atm, im buying bike bits!

Didn't mean a proper bench-rest type thing... Just a pack to shoot off or something so you're not shooting freehand?

Given the stuff to the powdercoater?

[The Pastor]

powdercoating is cheap, these mirrors were not (http://www.motogadget.de/en/multiview.html)

oh yeah, i'll use a pack to shoot off at chirs's next time i can get out there

[Wolf]

Didn't mean a proper bench-rest type thing... Just a pack to shoot off or something so you're not shooting freehand
Or pinch the ironing board - tell the missus she'll have to make do with only doing the vaccuming, dishes, dusting, mowing the lawns, washing the windows...

She can always catch up on the ironing when you get back - while you're having a few beers...

:devil2:

[jono035]

Or pinch the ironing board - tell the missus she'll have to make do with only doing the vaccuming, dishes, dusting, mowing the lawns, washing the windows...

She can always catch up on the ironing when you get back - while you're having a few beers...

:devil2:

That's a good point! Might be a little hazardous to my health though...

RM: You're getting yourself a set of those? That's not a cheap proposition for sure!

[wbks]

Think I found my deer/goat/plinking rifle

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-245545673.htm

[Wolf]

Think I found my deer/goat/plinking rifle

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-245545673.htm


This auction was removed by trade me earlier as it was mistaken for an MSSA.

"Ooh, it's got wuna them deadly pistol grips on it, take it off, quick." Twunts!

[wbks]

"Ooh, it's got wuna them deadly pistol grips on it, take it off, quick." Twunts!I thought bolt actions didn't qualify as MSSA? I notice there are a few sellers selling their SKS' without a stock saying "comes without pistol grip, its lost in my house" or similar:lol:

[jono035]

I thought bolt actions didn't qualify as MSSA? I notice there are a few sellers selling their SKS' without a stock saying "comes without pistol grip, its lost in my house" or similar:lol:

There was something that happened where a bolt-action rifle that could be converted with factory parts to a semi-auto was classified as an MSSA due to the stock.

Can't remember the details, though.

Edit: Just looked at the auction you linked and yeah, there is no way anyone should be confusing that for a semi auto or anything, wtf?

[wbks]

There was something that happened where a bolt-action rifle that could be converted with factory parts to a semi-auto was classified as an MSSA due to the stock.

Can't remember the details, though.So whats the deal with why pistol grips are considered dangerous, anyway? Off the top of my head I would assume they make assault rifles with them to go a little easier on the shooters wrist over time, and cut down materials needed for the stock... How the hell will that equal more gun crime? Sure it's probably 'cause it looks scary, but what is their technical reason?

[The Pastor]

2k dosent = plinking :O

[wbks]

2k dosent = plinking :ORabbits, then?:whistle:

I was joking
http://www.tqnyc.org/2009/00766/dr-evil.jpg
Or was I?

[jono035]

So whats the deal with why pistol grips are considered dangerous, anyway? Off the top of my head I would assume they make assault rifles with them to go a little easier on the shooters wrist over time, and cut down materials needed for the stock... How the hell will that equal more gun crime? Sure it's probably 'cause it looks scary, but what is their technical reason?

You'd have to ask someone who was more familiar with the ergonomic science behind it all, I'd only be speculating really.

And yeah, there is no way in hell that rifle would fit with my definition of the word 'plinking' lol.

Edit: Pretty soon Indy will show up claiming that you'd be better off buying 8 Mosins...

[Swoop]

Another Auckland auction, appears to be taking place.
Collector Grade Arms (NZ) Ltd.
Sunday 13 June 2010.
Lincoln Green Hotel & Conference Centre.
159 Lincoln Rd Henderson.
Auckland.

[jono035]

Another Auckland auction, appears to be taking place.
Collector Grade Arms (NZ) Ltd.
Sunday 13 June 2010.
Lincoln Green Hotel & Conference Centre.
159 Lincoln Rd Henderson.
Auckland.

Wait a sec, in almost a years time?

[wbks]

And yeah, there is no way in hell that rifle would fit with my definition of the word 'plinking' lol.

Plinking cans 800m away could work?

[jono035]

Plinking cans 800m away could work?

Hell of a walk to reset em... Especially after you've ripped em in half...

[Swoop]

Wait a sec, in almost a years time?

It appears to be a few collectors who have banded together in an attempt to get things happening. Perhaps the passing of Ray Carvell has prompted this?

Your normal selection of bits and pieces being sold? Possibly because of all the crap happening around beTrademe...?

[Mr Merde]

There was something that happened where a bolt-action rifle that could be converted with factory parts to a semi-auto was classified as an MSSA due to the stock.

Can't remember the details, though.


This is an attempt by the NZ Police to once again impose their rationale on the classification system for firearms.

The rifle is made by Steyr

It is a bolt only rifle with a similar config to the current military version

The police armourer decided that if you took it apart and swapped in parts from the current forces rifle that it could be converted to a semi auto. This is the same armourer who in his evidence to the high court has stated that a .308 is smaller than a 5.56

Therefore they have attempted to bann it as an MSSA.

This is one more thing that the NSA is fighting.

The Firearms Act defines what is or isnt an MSSA not the police.

Join the NSA and suppoort them in the fight for your rights as shooters.

http://www.nsanz.org.nz/

The only organisation that is actually fighting for your rights as shooters.

Richard (KREWSR) has a case before the High Court in Wellington ton the 22nd of this month with regards the attempted reclasification of thumbhole stocks as MSSA, with reference to his SL8 but it has implications for all firearms affected by this circumvention of ther Firearms Act by the police.

The very thing that the Palmerston North High Court judge stated was an inconcequential opinion.

We have a very good chance of defeating the police in court. The very thing they do not want to happen.

There is also a complaint lodged with the IPCA for the fact that the police have advertised this reclassification at the expense of $60,000 of tax payers money and also added the motif of the NZ Government to this document thereby purporting that it has legal backing by such.

Their reasoning ( the police that is ) for this change. Thery have misinterpretted the firearms act for the past 16 years.

Incompetence or what.

[Wolf]

How the hell will that equal more gun crime? Sure it's probably 'cause it looks scary, but what is their technical reason?
That is their technical reason.

[wbks]

Hell of a walk to reset em... Especially after you've ripped em in half...Good excersize:cool:

[Mr Merde]

....
Your normal selection of bits and pieces being sold? Possibly because of all the crap happening around beTrademe...?

We have also been in touch with the Pricvacy Commission as there is no legal requierement for a middle man to collect Firearms licence numbers. The onus is on the seller to make sure the buyer holds the appropriate licence.

If you feed in a false number to Trade Me they know instantly and we have since found out that Trade Me and the Police are sharing database access to verify the licence numbers.

A definite breach of the Privacy Laws by the Police.

Especially, in my opinion, when it is a foriegn owned company collectin sensitive information on NZ citizens going about their lawful rights.

[wbks]

We have also been in touch with the Pricvacy Commission as there is no legal requierement for a middle man to collect Firearms licence numbers. The onus is on the seller to make sure the buyer holds the appropriate licence.

If you feed in a false number to Trade Me they know instantly and we have since found out that Trade Me and the Police are sharing database access to verify the licence numbers.

A definite breach of the Privacy Laws by the Police.

Especially, in my opinion, when it is a foriegn owned company collectin sensitive information on NZ citizens going about their lawful rights.Okay I'm not trying to be a smartass, here, But can you/will you do something about it?

[Mr Merde]

I'm training for Royal Marines in a years time, anyway:cool:

Best training you can do for this unit is to keep bending over in the shower to pick up the soap.

[jono035]

The rifle is made by Steyr

It is a bolt only rifle with a similar config to the current military version

The police armourer decided that if you took it apart and swapped in parts from the current forces rifle that it could be converted to a semi auto. This is the same armourer who in his evidence to the high court has stated that a .308 is smaller than a 5.56

There we go. I couldn't remember the details, just what the police were claiming and that it made fuckall sense.

[wbks]

Best training you can do for this unit is to keep bending over in the shower to pick up the soap.Lol, talked to a few kiwis who have done it, sounds like good shit... Not sure about shady shower business, though... Navy guys aye. Say that to a few back from their tour in Afghanistan...

[Mr Merde]

Okay I'm not trying to be a smartass, here, But can you/will you do something about it?

The NSA will be once this High Court case is over. We are only small at the moment and dont have the funds or resourses to fight on many levels at a time.

This is where we need the support of as many shooters as possible.

[jono035]

The NSA will be once this High Court case is over. We are only small at the moment and dont have the funds or resourses to fight on many levels at a time.

This is where we need the support of as many shooters as possible.

Had someone come up to me at the range on tuesday asking about the court case progress. He mentioned that he had contacted an arms officer about his 10/22 with a silhouette thumbhole stock and was told to 'wait until the current court case if over'...

So there are definitely people sitting up and taking notice.

[Mr Merde]

There we go. I couldn't remember the details, just what the police were claiming and that it made fuckall sense.

During WW1 the US experimented with the 1903 Springfield rifle.
They manufactured a device (The Pederson Device) that turned a bolt action rifle into a semi or full auto.

By the current polie thinking on the Steyr then all bolt action rifles should be made MSSA as there is the possiblity they could be made inrto semi autos.

Duh

[Mr Merde]

Had someone come up to me at the range on tuesday asking about the court case progress. He mentioned that he had contacted an arms officer about his 10/22 with a silhouette thumbhole stock and was told to 'wait until the current court case if over'...

So there are definitely people sitting up and taking notice.

There is a mood of quiet confidence in the NSA from what I understand. Quiet because it still could go against us. I have seen the evidence presented by both sides and even allowing for my personal prejudice I think that the police case is really weak and that presented by the NSA is very strong.

But I am not the judge.

[wbks]

During WW1 the US experimented with the 1903 Springfield rifle.
They manufactured a device (The Pederson Device) that turned a bolt action rifle into a semi or full auto.

By the current polie thinking on the Steyr then all bolt action rifles should be made MSSA as there is the possiblity they could be made inrto semi autos.

DuhCorrect me if I'm wrong, but cant any rifle be made into a semi auto if you screw around with it enough?

[Mr Merde]

Had someone come up to me at the range on tuesday asking about the court case progress. He mentioned that he had contacted an arms officer about his 10/22 with a silhouette thumbhole stock and was told to 'wait until the current court case if over'...

So there are definitely people sitting up and taking notice.

Oh yes.

The last thing autocratic departments like the police want is the silent majority to discover they have a voice and thence to actually use it.

[Mr Merde]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but cant any rifle be made into a semi auto if you screw around with it enough?

Do a Wikipaedia on the Pederson Device.

[Mr Merde]

Join the NSA http://www.nsanz.org.nz/ Join in on our discussions by clicking on the NSA Forums link on the homepage.

Support your rights as a shooter to enjoy your chosen sport as laid down in the laws of the land not in a departmental opinion of what the should be.

Help keep our sport alive and growing so that our decendants can have the option of participating if they decide to.

Its only $50 a year. If we only win one case then the money is worth it to me.

We have only been going for less than 2 months and already we have people in high places sitting up and taking notice.

I just finished a personal task and have e-mailed every sitting MP in NZ Parliament asking their stand on firearms in NZ.

Once I have the information back from them I will share it with the NSA.

Its nice to know who is with or against you.

Chris

[Wolf]

We have also been in touch with the Pricvacy Commission as there is no legal requierement for a middle man to collect Firearms licence numbers. The onus is on the seller to make sure the buyer holds the appropriate licence.

If you feed in a false number to Trade Me they know instantly and we have since found out that Trade Me and the Police are sharing database access to verify the licence numbers.

A definite breach of the Privacy Laws by the Police.

Especially, in my opinion, when it is a foriegn owned company collectin sensitive information on NZ citizens going about their lawful rights.
what we need is for some sympathetic hacker to break into Tardme's database and send the privacy commissioner a full copy of all the details they found therein then tell the papers what they've done and the sort of info they have found about NZ citizens.

Once it becomes pointedly obvious what someone can access and what they could do if they decided to be malicious, then perhaps people might be more up in arms at Tardme's illegal information gathering.

[Mr Merde]

what we need is for some sympathetic hacker to break into Tardme's database and send the privacy commissioner a full copy of all the details they found therein then tell the papers what they've done and the sort of info they have found about NZ citizens.

Once it becomes pointedly obvious what someone can access and what they could do if they decided to be malicious, then perhaps people might be more up in arms at Tardme's illegal information gathering.

Just imagine the scenario.

A hacker hits TM (already been done)
Takes the database and all the Firearms certificate numbers.
Matches addresses up to FAC numbers and names.
Sells them on to the less scruplious part of our society.

What do you have?

Best described as "A SHOPPING LIST"

[Wolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but cant any rifle be made into a semi auto if you screw around with it enough?
Shhhhhhhhh! Don't let the gummint hear you say that or the blackpowder clubs will have all their front-stuffers confiscated...

[Mr Merde]

Dont forget the female polititian in Australia who tried to have Side by side shotguns banned because the second barrel was

"automatically ready to fire"

Dont laugh, she was serious.

[Wolf]

Just imagine the scenario.

A hacker hits TM (already been done)
Takes the database and all the Firearms certificate numbers.
Matches addresses up to FAC numbers and names.
Sells them on to the less scruplious part of our society.

What do you have?

Best described as "A SHOPPING LIST"
Hence me wanting "Scenario B":

A hacker hits TM (already been done)
Takes the database and all the Firearms certificate numbers.
Matches addresses up to FAC numbers and names.
Passes them to privacy commission and says, "fucking good thing I didn't give this to the career crims, eh. You happy that those monkeys have access to this sort of info on our citizens?"
privacy commission finds the information gathering a breach of the law and plants a "cease and desist" on Tardme management.

[Mr Merde]

Hence me wanting "Scenario B":

A hacker hits TM (already been done)
Takes the database and all the Firearms certificate numbers.
Matches addresses up to FAC numbers and names.
Passes them to privacy commission and says, "fucking good thing I didn't give this to the career crims, eh. You happy that those monkeys have access to this sort of info on our citizens?"
privacy commission finds the information gathering a breach of the law and plants a "cease and desist" on Tardme management.

But as a responsible member of the IT community and a firearms livcence owner of good standing I couldnt possibly condone someone breaking the law to prove a point.


TUI

[Wolf]

Dont forget the female polititian in Australia who tried to have Side by side shotguns banned because the second barrel was

"automatically ready to fire"

Dont laugh, she was serious.
she's a politican and a dingo-fucker - two strong indicators that her IQ is lucky to make it to two digits...

[Mr Merde]

You have all gone quiet.

I hope you all have gone to the NSA site are reading through it, going to its forum and having a good peruse then filling in the membership document.

We need more shooters to stand up.

[jono035]

You have all gone quiet.

I hope you all have gone to the NSA site are reading through it, going to its forum and having a good peruse then filling in the membership document.

We need more shooters to stand up.

Don't look at me, I joined right after you did.

I'm just busy bashing my head against my desk trying to use an electromagnetic simulation package that doesn't want to cooperate...

Edit: Had a chat to a couple of the guys in Serious Shooters about the NSA cause etc. and they seemed moderately interested. Told them to check out the website and suggested that supporting the cause would buy them a lot of goodwill from the members I knew lol

[Mr Merde]

Don't look at me, I joined right after you did.

I'm just busy bashing my head against my desk trying to use an electromagnetic simulation package that doesn't want to cooperate...


Have you threatened it with a "gentle tool of persuassion"

Namely hit it with a 25lb lump hammer.

Always works with my servers.

As to the NSA. Good on you. Do you use the forums? if so whats your name there?

[ManDownUnder]

Have you threatened it with a "gentle tool of persuassion"

Namely hit it with a 25lb lump hammer.

... aaa yes - ye olde "technical tap".

[jono035]

Have you threatened it with a "gentle tool of persuassion"

Namely hit it with a 25lb lump hammer.

Always works with my servers.

As to the NSA. Good on you. Do you use the forums? if so whats your name there?

I've been perusing the forums whenever new info on the court case has been posted but haven't really been posting or anything... Jono is the username.

Bashing the crap out of it would work well for cheering me up but not much else really... This software is well known for eating postgrad students lives...

[Drunken Monkey]

Well I finally did it, got of my indecisive bum and splashed out (well hardly, they're so _cheap_ at the moment) on one of those Norinco M-14 copies. Can't use it this weekend unfortunately, but will give it a bit of a run around soon hopefully.

If I like it lots I'll put my old Parker Hale .243 bolt action up for grabs if anyone is interested.

[sAsLEX]

2k dosent = plinking :O

Fuck really! I have spent lots more than that so far!


You'd have to ask someone who was more familiar with the ergonomic science behind it all, I'd only be speculating really.


They look scary. That is the reason. There is no ergonomic advantage with a hole in the stock vs other design.


Navy guys aye. Say that to a few back from their tour in Afghanistan...

Yeah I have heard they are weird......

Just a shame that Afghanistan will be wrapping up under the current plan before I get my chance to go!

[wbks]

Fuck really! I have spent lots more than that so far!



They look scary. That is the reason. There is no ergonomic advantage with a hole in the stock vs other design.



Yeah I have heard they are weird......

Just a shame that Afghanistan will be wrapping up under the current plan before I get my chance to go!I seriously doubt it will be over before either of us are old and going gray. Chance to go with who?

[jono035]

They look scary. That is the reason. There is no ergonomic advantage with a hole in the stock vs other design.

I don't know about that. There was a very definite turn at some point towards free-standing pistol grips for military rifles so I would expect that has been determined as being 'better'...

As for applying that terminology to dragunov stocks etc. then it's pretty BS, but a proper completely free standing pistol grip stock on an AR15 does nothing but look scary? I dunno...

[sAsLEX]

I seriously doubt it will be over before either of us are old and going gray. Chance to go with who?


The PRT will be gradually wound down and the SAS troops will stay in Afghanistan for 18 months.

Well I am going grey already.

[wbks]

I don't know about that. There was a very definite turn at some point towards free-standing pistol grips for military rifles so I would expect that has been determined as being 'better'...

As for applying that terminology to dragunov stocks etc. then it's pretty BS, but a proper completely free standing pistol grip stock on an AR15 does nothing but look scary? I dunno...Maybe they're just doing it do appear to be doing something.

[wbks]

Well I am going grey already.Oh, you're army. Currently? Maybe time to think about RMC?:Pokey: Might be a little more dangerous than provincial reconstruction, though...

[sAsLEX]

I don't know about that. There was a very definite turn at some point towards free-standing pistol grips for military rifles so I would expect that has been determined as being 'better'...

As for applying that terminology to dragunov stocks etc. then it's pretty BS, but a proper completely free standing pistol grip stock on an AR15 does nothing but look scary? I dunno...

Well look military is maybe a better term.

The move from wood to metal and polymers for stocks, and the modularity of modern assault rifles has led to stocks and grips that attach to and hang off receivers etc

Also the moving of the receiver rearwards in a lot of bull pup designs means the hand has to sit below the receiver instead of behind.

[wbks]

Well look military is maybe a better term.

The move from wood to metal and polymers for stocks, and the modularity of modern assault rifles has led to stocks and grips that attach to and hang off receivers etc

Also the moving of the receiver rearwards in a lot of bull pup designs means the hand has to sit below the receiver instead of behind.Yea, but how many SA80's do you see people hunting with...

[jono035]

Well look military is maybe a better term.

The move from wood to metal and polymers for stocks, and the modularity of modern assault rifles has led to stocks and grips that attach to and hang off receivers etc

Also the moving of the receiver rearwards in a lot of bull pup designs means the hand has to sit below the receiver instead of behind.

Good point, even in non-bullpup designs the receiver is further back with the grip below the receiver so mass is more centered and the weapon is shorter overall... I guess if you're trying to make a weapon more suitable for close-quarters combat then centering as much of the mass and making it shorter is enough an advantage. There we go, that sounds like an answer to your question, wbks.

[jono035]

Yea, but how many SA80's do you see people hunting with...

There are a few bullpup hunting designs out and about that I've seen... Makes a lot of sense having the shortest possible weapon when you're bush-bashing...

[sAsLEX]

Yea, but how many SA80's do you see people hunting with...

Your point?


Look where the grip is here:
<img src=http://www.rhakgun.co.cc/great%20Britain/SA80%20-%20L85/sa80-l22a1.jpg>


Compared to say these here:
<img src=http://www.hrtyrergalleries.com/images/1682.jpg>

And you can see the later all have there rear hand behind the receiver, not fwd and under it like in a modern assault rifle.

[wbks]

Good point, even in non-bullpup designs the receiver is further back with the grip below the receiver so mass is more centered and the weapon is shorter overall... I guess if you're trying to make a weapon more suitable for close-quarters combat then centering as much of the mass and making it shorter is enough an advantage. There we go, that sounds like an answer to your question, wbks.Does! So in conclusion, it does nothing to deter jan molenar style shooters, and does nothing to improve or decrease their accuracy... Thats worth a law change!

[sAsLEX]

There are a few bullpup hunting designs out and about that I've seen... Makes a lot of sense having the shortest possible weapon when you're bush-bashing...

Not all hunting needs bush bashing and getting close.....

<img src=http://world.guns.ru/sniper/rpa_rangemaster_338.jpg>


Example of shorted overall weapon by moving receiver rearwards in a bolt action.

[wbks]

Your point?


Look where the grip is here:



Compared to say these here:


And you can see the later all have there rear hand behind the receiver, not fwd and under it like in a modern assault rifle.Point was that because you have to move the grip forward of the reciever in a bullpup, you don't really see any of them out hunting NZ so it doesn't really effect the problem of SKS rifles and similar being restricted.

[jono035]

Walther G22, there ya go.

No, it's a really shitty way of categorizing guns as 'scarier looking' or just 'moderately scary'. There is no advantage to even a fully free standing pistol grip if you are going to go on a rampage.

That said, the bayonet lug and flash suppressor arguably isn't going to do a whole lot for you either...

And how long does it really take to load a fresh magazine...

It's all a gigantic crap shoot in summary.

[sAsLEX]

Point was that because you have to move the grip forward of the reciever in a bullpup, you don't really see any of them out hunting NZ so it doesn't really effect the problem of SKS rifles and similar being restricted.

So if it does nothing to add to the threat of the weapon to the public in any way, why are the Police trying so hard to ban them? Would it be because they need to appear to do something to cover up their fuck up in Napier?

Yes they shorten the weapon. There is a minimum length to a rifle in law to stop glorified pistols being used by A cat license holders.

[jono035]

Not all hunting needs bush bashing and getting close.....

Yeah, certainly, just used the first legitimate example of why a short weapon is good for hunting that sprang to mind.

Also, if you're using glass optics then your sight radius doesn't matter either so there isn't necessarily a downside.

[sAsLEX]

Walther G22, there ya go.

No, it's a really shitty way of categorizing guns as 'scarier looking' or just 'moderately scary'. There is no advantage to even a fully free standing pistol grip if you are going to go on a rampage.

That said, the bayonet lug and flash suppressor arguably isn't going to do a whole lot for you either...

And how long does it really take to load a fresh magazine...

It's all a gigantic crap shoot in summary.

Flash suppressor could hide your location from the police if you were shooting away..... to an extent...... but then so would following simple doctrine available online such as Field Manual 23-10......


Bayonet lug is as knives are way more dangerous than semi automatic weapons!

[wbks]

So if it does nothing to add to the threat of the weapon to the public in any way, why are the Police trying so hard to ban them? Would it be because they need to appear to do something to cover up their fuck up in Napier?
I'd go with this one, like I said about 5 mins ago...

[jono035]

Flash suppressor could hide your location from the police if you were shooting away..... to an extent...... but then so would following simple doctrine available online such as Field Manual 23-10.....

And wouldn't explain why suppressors are still legal...

I'd really like to ask Mr Mcleod what he honestly thinks would happen if they were to completely remove the E category endorsement and the silly MSSA classification system.

My guess is nothing other than a few shifts in market price points...

[wbks]

And wouldn't explain why suppressors are still legal...

I'd really like to ask Mr Mcleod what he honestly thinks would happen if they were to completely remove the E category endorsement and the silly MSSA classification system.

My guess is nothing other than a few shifts in market price points...a rambo on every block, of course

[Indiana_Jones]

Post!

Just for Chris!

-Indy

[jono035]

Post!

Just for Chris!

-Indy

If I hadn't just recently blinged you that would be another *facepalm*.

[Indiana_Jones]

If I hadn't just recently blinged you that would be another *facepalm*.

Don't do it bro, I know where that palm has been!

-Indy

[jono035]

Don't do it bro, I know where that palm has been!

-Indy

But that's half the fun!


Or at least that's what your mum said...

[jono035]

Went to the range last night and mowed through a heap more of my lead hand-loads. It is still making an ugly, ugly mess of the barrel, but they appear to be plenty accurate enough. I guess once the barrel is leaded up then the bullets are just running happily over the top of the leaded grooves. Might fire the rest of the lead rounds I have without worrying about cleaning and see what happens.

I was also shooting with some blanks that I had made up (resized without decapping the spent primer, filled with flour, bullet seated and crimped as normal) and after a few strings of 5 live rounds mixed with 4 blank rounds I was consistently getting everything in the black and wasn't flinching when a blank came up. Was an interesting exercise all up with the best result being 2 rounds in the 10, 7 rounds in the 9 and 3 rounds in the 8 rings out of 10 rounds fired.

Still going to have to work out a more permanent fix for the rear sight working itself loose, maybe just locktite it in place and be done with it.

[Mr Merde]

..... best result being 2 rounds in the 10, 7 rounds in the 9 and 3 rounds in the 8 rings out of 10 rounds fired.

...


Not bad

So you shot an 87\100.

I am assuming this was at 25 metres.

Have you tried the exercise I showed you, with the pencil.

Helps to control the waver.

Try and keep the barrel moving in a circular motiuon nand gradually tighten it.

No more than 7 seconds fromn raising the pistol to tasking the shot. Its been proven that any longer and you develop muscle fatigue.

[jono035]

Not bad

So you shot an 87\100.

I am assuming this was at 25 metres.

Have you tried the exercise I showed you, with the pencil.

Helps to control the waver.

Try and keep the barrel moving in a circular motiuon nand gradually tighten it.

No more than 7 seconds fromn raising the pistol to tasking the shot. Its been proven that any longer and you develop muscle fatigue.

This has been without any dry firing practice recently and shot as a full string with no resting between shots, probably about 5-6 seconds to line up each shot.

Haven't given the pencil thing a try due to a lack of pencils and complete inability to remember to buy some. Will grab some on my way home today from the campus bookstore now that you've reminded me...

[Mr Merde]

"Shooting the pencil is an aid to training I have used to great effect with both experienced shooters and rookies. To do this you take a regular number 2 pencil with an eraser and "size" it to fit just barely loose in the barrel of the pistol you are practicing with. Of course this means you can only use this in a caliber larger than the pencil used. I have used this method with 9mm/38/357 .40 and .45 cal pistols effectively. First make sure that your pistol is empty and the chamber is clear. Then take your pencil and wrap a little masking tape around the pencil in two places one about an inch up from the eraser or a little more (so you don't get hung up on the chamber mouth) and another about an inch or so short of the end of the barrel until it fits well but is still loose in the barrel. Loose enough to fall out when tipped down, but enough so it doesn't wobble a lot. The pencil should protrude an inch or two out the end of the barrel when in contact with the breech face to be most effective"


"Then take a sheet of paper and draw a number of small 1/8" or smaller circles or little silhouette targets or whatever you want to "aim" at. Tape the paper up on a wall with "cork board", dart board or something that you won't mind poking some little holes in. Then holding your pistol in your shooting hand pull back the hammer or appropriately charge it and tip up to allow the pencil to fall back against the breech. Then step forward until your are within an inch or two of the pencil touching the paper target. Sight in on the first "target" spot and carefully engage the target. The pencil will be shot out of the barrel the short distance to the paper target and put a mark on the paper. Charge the weapon again and tip it up to let your pencil fall back to the breech face and do it again. You will begin to create a group of pencil marks below the aiming point. Our goal was to get those groups smaller and smaller working toward the magical single small dot. Remember to sharpen your pencil periodically between strings as needed, if the pencil gets to short you may have to set up another. We could get a 30 minute session or two without having to sharpen, depending on the "target" backing. This assists in your "technical" training to help you in consistent sight alignment, trigger squeeze and follow-through"

[jono035]

It is a very neat idea and I can definitely see the usefulness of it as a training aid, but the flinching needs to be cured first otherwise dry firing practice won't show much.

Edit: Just looking over the page that the website is from and basically what I've been doing is the first exercise described... It won't be anywhere near as good for fine trigger control as the pencil method though.

[Mr Merde]

When I was heavily involved in "skittle shooting" with my AMT longslide in .45 ACP oh so many years ago.

I used this training technique very extensively.

You get to a stage where you are firing almost instinctively when the pistol is in the firing position. You become less aware of the fact that you are looking at the sights, although you abviously are, and more involved in making that clean shot.

The other training aid i used was to develop muscle memory.

It may sound funny but I used to sit on my couch watching the box. Had the pistol in my hand and kept raising it to the firing poisition and lowering it. I had a spot marked on the wall above the TV and that was my aiming point. You get used to raising the firearm to the point where the sights are aligned with the target. In that way sighting almost becomes a subconcious act. Your body and eye seem to know when the pistol isnt in the right area of the target.

Sort of like putting a key into a door lock. How many times to you actually sit down and think about the actions of inserting the key. Your body just does the job and you are semi supprised when it doesnt go into the lock first off. Even when a person is drunk they dont seem to have a lot of problems getting the key to the area of the lock, unless they are totally blitzed and cant even see the door.

[Mr Merde]

http://www.personaldefensetraining.com/showpage.php?target=dryfire.php

Try this site. At the bottom of the page are some links that bring up targets that come on for a number of seconds and then disappear for a niumber.

Starts from showing for 2 seconds going down to .5 seconds

[JDK]

i keep chopping the pencil into 2 inch long bits and find the cyclinder hard to turn HAHA i'm guessing index it frist before dropping the pencil in fully ..

[jono035]

i keep chopping the pencil into 2 inch long bits and find the cyclinder hard to turn HAHA i'm guessing index it frist before dropping the pencil in fully ..

Not a problem I'm likely to have with my autoloader ;)

[Wolf]

Not a problem I'm likely to have with my autoloader ;)
It's getting the pencils into the mag in the first place that's the issue, right?

[jono035]

It's getting the pencils into the mag in the first place that's the issue, right?

Nah, stick em in the reloading press and pull the lever... She'll be right!

[sAsLEX]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QfDoQwIAaXg&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QfDoQwIAaXg&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Awesome super slow mo of bullets in flight and impacting steel/ballistic gel.

[jono035]

Awesome super slow mo of bullets in flight and impacting steel/ballistic gel.

Impressive! I liked watching the cracks propagate through the glass. The outside surface of the rifle bullets splitting along the rifling and peeling off was nice too...

[sAsLEX]

Impressive! I liked watching the cracks propagate through the glass. The outside surface of the rifle bullets splitting along the rifling and peeling off was nice too...

I was impressed with how little the major projectile deviated when hit from the side.

Shows how effective spinning is in combating wind etc

[jono035]

I was impressed with how little the major projectile deviated when hit from the side.

Shows how effective spinning is in combating wind etc

Yeah, looked like they were hitting it by firing shot at it, it was taking some pretty decent sized dents, too!

[sAsLEX]

Yeah, looked like they were hitting it by firing shot at it, it was taking some pretty decent sized dents, too!

Which indicates a pretty decent transfer of energy, yet it still lies on strong!

[jono035]

Which indicates a pretty decent transfer of energy, yet it still lies on strong!

The bullets hitting the edge and shearing in half was pretty good too...

[Swoop]

14 October, 2009. Afghan gun merchants can't get enough German pistols for their customers. The most popular model is the Walther-P1, a compact 9mm weapon once widely used by German officers and police (a Walther was the favorite of fictional superspy James Bond). Fortunately for the Afghans, Germany donated 10,000 used Walther-P1s to the Afghan police three years ago. Since then, many of these have been "lost" or "stolen" by the cops, and ended up in local gun shops.

NATO is learning that giving Afghan police and troops high quality weapons backfires. That's because there is, and always has been, an active marker for weapons in Afghanistan. Although most Afghan men cannot afford it, most would like to own a weapon. And those who can afford it, want the best weapons available. This has led to many Western rifles and pistols, donated to the Afghan security forces, disappearing into the local arms trade.

One solution for this is to just equip the Afghans with older Russian weapons (AK-47s and Makarov pistols). There are a lot of second hand Makarov pistols coming on to the market, as the Russian police upgrade to more modern models. The 9mm Makarov was introduced in 1951, to replace the 1930s era TT-33 pistol. This beast weighed 854 grams (30 ounces) and fired a puny 7.62mm bullet from an 8 round magazine. The (then) new Makarov weighed 730 grams (26 ounces) and fired a 9mm bullet from an 8 round magazine.

The Walther-P1 is basically the German Army World War II P38, which was adopted by the post-World War II German army, and some local police departments there. It's an 800 gram (28 ounce) weapon firing 9mm bullets from an 8 round magazine.

There are actually a lot of used police pistols available in the West, as newer and more effective models have been introduced in the last decade or so. But German weapons have always been much admired in Afghanistan, and the Walther-P1 is considered the gold standard when it comes to side arms.

[Wolf]

But German weapons have always been much admired in Afghanistan, and the Walther-P1 is considered the gold standard when it comes to side arms.
The P-38/P1 was my favourite dream firearm for years, then Walther produced the P99. I would still love to own a P-38, but I'd want a P99 first.

The Afghans think the old P-1's a gold standard? They'd think the P99, with its 15 rounds of 9mm or 12 rounds of .40, was diamond-encrusted Platinum!

Bond's pistol was originally the Walther PPK, a far more compact pistol firing eight 7.65mm rounds, then they equipped the Pierce Brosnan edition of Bond with the P99.

[jono035]

The P-38/P1 was my favourite dream firearm for years, then Walther produced the P99. I would still love to own a P-38, but I'd want a P99 first.

The Afghans think the old P-1's a gold standard? They'd think the P99, with its 15 rounds of 9mm or 12 rounds of .40, was diamond-encrusted Platinum!

Bond's pistol was originally the Walther PPK, a far more compact pistol firing eight 7.65mm rounds, then they equipped the Pierce Brosnan edition of Bond with the P99.

The PPK also had a .38 variant.

I've had a play with someones P99 and while it would be a great combat weapon (light, double stack mag, relatively meaty trigger pull) it isn't very nice to fire. The lack of weight at the top end makes it really torquey when firing the 9mm, which has a very short sharp recoil anyway. The trigger pull was also quite long and ratchety, similar to a Glock. It definitely isn't a pistol that I would choose to own for fun.

The PPK has style, the P99 is yet another polymer frame autoloader. Precision and elegance vs a blunt instrument. Maybe they were worried Brosnan wasn't manly enough?

[Wolf]

The PPK also had a .38 variant.

I've had a play with someones P99 and while it would be a great combat weapon (light, double stack mag, relatively meaty trigger pull) it isn't very nice to fire. The lack of weight at the top end makes it really torquey when firing the 9mm, which has a very short sharp recoil anyway. The trigger pull was also quite long and ratchety, similar to a Glock. It definitely isn't a pistol that I would choose to own for fun.

The PPK has style, the P99 is yet another polymer frame autoloader. Precision and elegance vs a blunt instrument. Maybe they were worried Brosnan wasn't manly enough?
Never had a chance to fire either - I have the CP99 airpistol made by Umarex/Walther but that's technically a double-action 8-shot revolver so the trigger is likely to be totally different to the real 9mm (you can manually cock it with the slide and it has a nice crisp single-action but still no comparison with the real McCoy.)

Isn't Bond supposed to be a "blunt instrument"? At least, according to M in the latest incarnation...

Though I notice Daniel Craig fires a PPK in the title sequence of QoS.

I've held a Glock and I don't like its ergonomics - the angle of the grip does not suit me. The P99 does give a nice natural point for me (as do the Colt 1911, Browning Hi-Power, Ruger KP models and a number of others) so as far as JAFPFAs (Just Another Fucking Polymer Frame Autoloader) go, I'd take the P99 over the Glock any day.

[jono035]

Never had a chance to fire either - I have the CP99 airpistol made by Umarex/Walther but that's technically a double-action 8-shot revolver so the trigger is likely to be totally different to the real 9mm (you can manually cock it with the slide and it has a nice crisp single-action but still no comparison with the real McCoy.)

Isn't Bond supposed to be a "blunt instrument"? At least, according to M in the latest incarnation...

Though I notice Daniel Craig fires a PPK in the title sequence of QoS.

I've held a Glock and I don't like its ergonomics - the angle of the grip does not suit me. The P99 does give a nice natural point for me (as do the Colt 1911, Browning Hi-Power, Ruger KP models and a number of others) so as far as JAFPFAs (Just Another Fucking Polymer Frame Autoloader) go, I'd take the P99 over the Glock any day.

Yes, but Casino Royale is the beginning of the story, before Bond acquired the style and elegance that he was later (?!) reknowned for? Talking entirely out of my rear end there of course.

Interesting comment about the grip angle, that isn't something I've noticed in anything other than the ruger target .22 pistols.

And yeah, a Walther P99 or S&W SW9 would probably be up there for me.

[Indiana_Jones]

Get your palm ready Jono....

PPK? sif!

PP7 is where it's at!


<img src="http://www.coolrom.com/screenshots/n64/GoldenEye%20007%20(2).gif">

<img src="http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/a/a3/PP7_GE.png/400px-PP7_GE.png">

-Indy

[The Pastor]

the pp7 is the fictional one for james bond or was it actually made?

[Wolf]

Never heard of a PP7. Heckler & Koch made the P7, which looks nothing like the pic in the screen capture.

[jono035]

It's a PPK renamed to PP7 due to licensing BS I'd imagine. Really common thing to do in games.

[Wolf]

Interesting comment about the grip angle, that isn't something I've noticed in anything other than the ruger target .22 pistols.
Have used neither but there does seem to be a marked difference in grip angle between the Ruger Mk I (and upgrades) and the 22/45. The 22/45 has (according to Ruger's own literature) a "1911-style" grip, the Mk I, II and III have a more angled grip. I can imagine the 22/45 would be more my cup of tea as the barrel of the Mk I would be angled upwards if I held my hand in a "what feels comfortable for me" position - just like the Glock. I'd have to consciously angle my wrist down to line up the sights.

I once read a review on the P99 where the reviewer compared it with the Glock and said that the Walther was a more natural point for people used to the 1911 and I agree with it wholeheartedly - not that I'm used to the 1911, but I have held one and find it also points as "naturally" (for me, YMMV) as the P99 and my CP99.

I can bring the CP99 up into firing position quickly and smoothly with my eyes shut, open them and find myself looking down the sights. Tried that with a Glock and I'm looking at the top of the slide, angled upwards.

[Wolf]

It's a PPK renamed to PP7 due to licensing BS I'd imagine. Really common thing to do in games.
I know, also occurs in Chinese knock-off softair guns.

With the games, you'd think that the manufacturers would appreciate a little free advertising for their products. "Man, I really want to get me a Heckler and Koch MP5K - I seriously kick arse with that in Soldier of Negotiable Affection IV!"

[jono035]

I know, also occurs in Chinese knock-off softair guns.

With the games, you'd think that the manufacturers would appreciate a little free advertising for their products. "Man, I really want to get me a Heckler and Koch MP5K - I seriously kick arse with that in Soldier of Negotiable Affection IV!"

Yeah, the original ruger target pistols vs the .22/45 are what I was talking about. I prefer my .22/45 as well, but the originals aren't that bad, I've spent a lot of time playing with both.

You do get used to it a bit, but then I went and bought a .22/45...

As for the advertising in games, I imagine that could easily end up going both ways... I know I was quite dismissive of the Desert Eagle until I had a chance to have a play with one simply because it was the 'Counter-Strike' pistol to me...

[Wolf]

I know I was quite dismissive of the Desert Eagle until I had a chance to have a play with one simply because it was the 'Counter-Strike' pistol to me...
You're kidding me, that pistol had the best advertising! 2 words: Lara Croft

:devil2:

[jono035]

You're kidding me, that pistol had the best advertising! 2 words: Lara Croft

:devil2:

Yeah, but the wrong kind of advertising for it to be taken seriously really.

[Wolf]

Yeah, but the wrong kind of advertising for it to be taken seriously really.
Was joking, dude.

In one of my gun mags, there's this advert for some rifle made by a company I've never heard of - it features a chic wearing a bikini and holding the rifle.

A few pages later, there's a H&K ad showing their rifle, hunting belt and some ammunition. The H&K logo was prominent, the text minimal - basic specs and available calibres.

No question of the quality of the no-name rifle if it needs some chic in a bikini to get people to notice it. All H&K felt they needed was their name and a pic of the rifle amid some common hunting-related stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, H&K are quite right, that's all they need.

If it needs sex to make it seem interesting, I don't tend to take it seriously

[jono035]

Was joking, dude.

In one of my gun mags, there's this advert for some rifle made by a company I've never heard of - it features a chic wearing a bikini and holding the rifle.

A few pages later, there's a H&K ad showing their rifle, hunting belt and some ammunition. The H&K logo was prominent, the text minimal - basic specs and available calibres.

No question of the quality of the no-name rifle if it needs some chic in a bikini to get people to notice it. All H&K felt they needed was their name and a pic of the rifle amid some common hunting-related stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, H&K are quite right, that's all they need.

If it needs sex to make it seem interesting, I don't tend to take it seriously

Yeah, definitely. When you see the same approach for variable frequency motor drives or power factor correction units then it really makes you cringe too!

[JDK]

Heres a good question

ok i got the brass in from the USA so now have my hands on a heap of 12 G shotgun shells realy flash looking as there don't have a crimp any ideas on how to glue an over shot card in
some have said hot gule gun but just tryed it on a bit of card and hacksaw blade glue did not stick too well to steel some have also said nail polish ummm kinda keep that for going out HAHAHAHA ..
seems to need to be a strong but brittle glue that will stick but when hit hard will snap off the brass case in the USA they use a glue call elmers (?? think a brand name )

any ideas maybe just a coat of varnish would do it
thanks
JDK

[jono035]

Heres a good question

ok i got the brass in from the USA so now have my hands on a heap of 12 G shotgun shells realy flash looking as there don't have a crimp any ideas on how to glue an over shot card in
some have said hot gule gun but just tryed it on a bit of card and hacksaw blade glue did not stick too well to steel some have also said nail polish ummm kinda keep that for going out HAHAHAHA ..
seems to need to be a strong but brittle glue that will stick but when hit hard will snap off the brass case in the USA they use a glue call elmers (?? think a brand name )

any ideas maybe just a coat of varnish would do it
thanks
JDK

Wax? Might be better off trying to form a 'pellet' of wax in the end rather than glue around the edges?

Could be quite a bastard to stick to if the brass has any residue on it or a little bit of polish etc...

[JDK]

yea some have said wax but as it cools it srinks so pulls away from the edge some have said the glue ya stick arrows together with but kinda pricey ..

banged off an email to holdfast to see what they think as well

from what i can work out the glue they use in the USA tends to dry hard so cracks not like PVA or rubbery glues HAHAHA the fella in the hardwear store was buggered to he thought gutter sealer may work

JDK

[The Pastor]

yea some have said wax but as it cools it srinks so pulls away from the edge some have said the glue ya stick arrows together with but kinda pricey ..

banged off an email to holdfast to see what they think as well

from what i can work out the glue they use in the USA tends to dry hard so cracks not like PVA or rubbery glues HAHAHA the fella in the hardwear store was buggered to he thought gutter sealer may work

JDK
wont just a normal super glue work?

[JDK]

Ummmmm not sure asking around as much as i can from what i can work out the overshot card needs to be held in well eneff so ya shot dose not fall out and can take a bang and a crash in boxes ammo belt etc etc also not jump when the first barrel is fired ..
hold the shot back a bit while the fire behind it gets going and then snaps off the brass wall hopefully cleanly so cases eazy to scrub up for reloading
cool looking cases tho make good wee shooter glasses fer a few wee JD's at days end
JDK

[jono035]

I'd think superglue is probably too brittle, it's also pretty lame strengthwise sticking to metal... There are some silicones and acrylic based sealants/adhesives that you could use to 'pot' the end but I have no idea what they would leave in your barrel or on the edge of the cartridges...

Could try using enough hot glue to 'pot' the end, so it doesn't really have to stick to the metal all that much, that would mean it would have to shear off rather than pull off, may not be any better though...

How thick is the brass? any chance you could get a groove cut in the end somehow to provide a locking recess for something gluey... Probably too much of a bastard to do and wouldn't be much of a lip...

get some thin cork sheet and use a slightly belled and sharpened case as a punch to make a sealing plug? Probably too flimsy...

need something like a cast lead disk that you cast oversize, stick in the freezer then expands in the end for a shrink-fit... lead would be terrible though, a flipping disk of lead would piss off in some random direction and be a major bloody hazard... Something light that shrinks nicely when cold...

some kind of putty or plaster? don't know how well that would stick to metal either though... blu-tack sticks well but would work its way loose...

An epoxy glue like araldite would stick but you'd never get it off...

The expanding foam stuff can be good, sticks like shit to a blanket and dissolves in acetone... Don't think acetone would do anything to brass...

Edit: Brass case shotglass... you got any of these things to spare?? :eek:

[Mr Merde]

Heres a good question

ok i got the brass in from the USA so now have my hands on a heap of 12 G shotgun shells realy flash looking as there don't have a crimp any ideas on how to glue an over shot card in
some have said hot gule gun but just tryed it on a bit of card and hacksaw blade glue did not stick too well to steel some have also said nail polish ummm kinda keep that for going out HAHAHAHA ..
seems to need to be a strong but brittle glue that will stick but when hit hard will snap off the brass case in the USA they use a glue call elmers (?? think a brand name )

any ideas maybe just a coat of varnish would do it
thanks
JDK


To start with the wad should be 11 gauge.
If fact all the wadding should be 11 gauge.

Super glue works fine as does a silicon sealant.

Talking to other shooters wh use these they have found that ordinary woodworkers PVA glue works really well.

I have 50 of these cases

and enough wads etc from Circle Fly to load about 3000.

[YellowDog]

Some women are not so good with guns.

Some snipers have feelings.

[wbks]

Lol, have you watched the interview with that sniper?

[The Pastor]

Lol, have you watched the interview with that sniper?
is it on u tube?

[wbks]

is it on u tube?http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/recoil.asp

[Swoop]

Vietnam revisited?
Recently, American mass media stories on Afghanistan fighting provided some interesting misreporting on how weapons operate. It all began on October 3rd, about 300 Taliban attacked a small U.S. base in eastern Afghanistan, near Kandesh and about 30 kilometers from the Pakistani border. There were about a hundred U.S. and Afghan troops (most of them American) in the base. The fighting went on for over eight hours, but eventually the American airpower, and the stubbornness of the U.S. infantry, made the difference and the Taliban retreated, taking most of their dead and wounded with them. Over the next few days, another 40 Taliban were hunted down and killed. The defenders lost eight American and four Afghan dead, plus 24 Americans and ten Afghans wounded. Twenty Afghans surrendered, and one was later executed. Ten more Afghan soldiers were killed in the subsequent search for the attackers.

The mass media reports soon were talking about American assault rifles overheating and jamming. Some of the reports displayed a remarkable ignorance of how military rifles operate. One report had the American M4 rifle barrels white hot with heat. That's a physical impossibility, because of the metal used for these rifles. Long before the rifle barrels turned any color from heat, rounds would automatically fire ("cook off") from the heat, and the barrels would fail (split apart). The reporters also seemed unaware of how automatic weapons handle heat. Assault rifles are built to fire about once every four seconds for hours, without any heat problems. Machine-guns do have heat problems, and are designed with easily removable barrels, so you can switch in a fresh barrel. In short, any automatic weapon will overheat if you put too many rounds through it in too short a time. The troops are taught all about this, and are impressed with the fact that they must either cope with it, or risk death.

There was one thing mentioned in the news stories that has some relevance, and that's rifles jamming (not because of heat problems). This goes back to the decades old argument about replacing the recoil system in American assault rifles. This came to a head (again) two years ago, when the army ran more tests on its M-4 rifle, involving dust and reliability. Four weapons were tested. The M4, the XM8, SCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) and the H&K 416 (an M4 with the more dust resistant components of the XM8 installed).

The testing consisted of exposing the weapons to 25 hours of heavy dust conditions over two months. During that testing period, 6,000 rounds were fired from each of ten weapons of each type. The weapons with the fewest failures (usually jams) were rated highest. Thus the XM8 finished first, SCAR second, 416 third and M4 last. In response, the army said it was satisfied with the M4s performance, but was considering equipping it with a heavier barrel (to lessen overheating) and more effective magazines (27 percent of the M4s 882 jams were magazine related.) The army noted that the M4 fired over 98 percent of its rounds without problems. The army had been forced by Congress to conduct the tests. Congress was responding to complaints by the troops.

The XM8 had 127 jams, the SCAR 226 and the 416 had 233. Thus the M-4 had nearly eight times as many jams as the XM8, the rifle designed to replace it. The M4 had nearly four times the jams of the SCAR and 416, which were basically M4 type rifles with a different gas handling systems. Any stoppage is potentially fatal for the soldier holding the rifle. Thus the disagreement between the army brass, and the troops who use the weapons in combat.

In dusty places like Iraq and Afghanistan, you have to clean your M16 and M4 rifles constantly, otherwise the combination of carbon and dust in the chamber will cause jams. The army and marines both decided to stick with their current weapons, rather than adopt an easier to maintain weapon, like the XM8 or H&K 416, because of the billion or so dollars it would cost to switch rifles.

If the issue were put to a vote, the troops would vote for a rifle using a short-stroke system (like the XM8, SCAR or H&K 416). But the military is not a democracy, so the troops spend a lot of time cleaning their weapons, and hoping for the best. The debate involves two intertwined attitudes among senior army commanders. First, they don't want the hassle, and possible embarrassment, of switching to a new rifle. Second, they are anticipating a breakthrough in weapons technology that will make a possible a much improved infantry weapon. This is likely to happen later, rather than sooner, but the generals keep obsessing over it.

Earlier efforts to just get the troops a more reliable rifle have failed. Back in 2005, the U.S. Army's design for a new assault rifle, the XM8, was cancelled. But now the manufacturer has incorporated one of the key components of the XM8, into M4 rifles, and calls the hybrid the H&K 416. Heckler & Koch (H&K) designed the XM8, which was based on an earlier H&K rifle, the G36. SOCOM is using the 416, but no one else is (except for a few police departments).

The XM8 (like the G36 and 416) uses a short-stroke piston system. The M16s uses gas-tube system, which results in carbon being blown back into the chamber. That leads to carbon build up, which results in jams (rounds getting stuck in the chamber, and the weapon unable to fire.). The short-stroke system also does not expose parts of the rifle to extremely hot gases (which wears out components more quickly). As a result, rifles using the short-stroke system, rather than the gas-tube, are more reliable, easier to maintain and last longer.

H&K developed the 416, for SOCOM, at the same time the XM8 was being evaluated by the army. SOCOM got the first 416s in 2004, a year before the army cancelled the XM8. The 416 looks like the M4, for the only thing that has changed is the gas system that automatically extracts the cartridge after the bullet has been fired, and loads the next round. SOCOM can buy pretty much whatever they want, the U.S. Army cannot. SOCOM listens to what its troops want, the army often doesn't. In trying to avoid embarrassment and scandal, the army leadership is blundering into it anyway. Now the issue is getting revived, and is getting more attention from Congress. The army doesn't like that either.

[The Pastor]

Reminds me i recently saw on you tube an interview with a marine sniper - its about 25mins long but was pretty interesting.

he said one time the enemy was looking for him and was so close one of the soldiers took a leak on him as he thought he was a bush!

Interesting point he made was how he had to kill people, lots of people, that had done no harm to him and that messed him up slightly.. but i think hes pretty nuts anyway!

[jono035]

Interesting article there Swoop. As I understood it one of the big issues was the direct action of the gas on the bolt carrier, rather than on a separate piston. This keeps all the moving mass in line with the barrel so that recoil doesn't shift the point of aim as much and induces less barrel harmonics but also means the rifle needs to be kept cleaner and more thoroughly lubricated which in turn leads to issues with dust getting into the lubricated parts.

There are certainly enough people who are fans of the AR15 pattern rifles but I wouldn't be one to suggest that this means that it is actually any good...

Also, depending on how often the jams actually occur, it may not be considered a good investment to replace the weapons simply over this issue. There would be pretty horrendous costs in terms of retraining personnel etc. and that money may be better spent making sure that the soldiers are equipped with other things like GPS units that actually work etc.

[Swoop]

Interesting article there Swoop. As I understood it one of the big issues was the direct action of the gas on the bolt carrier, rather than on a separate piston.
I thought that some around here would be interested in that article!
There is also the weight issue, of adding a piston rod.

[jono035]

I thought that some around here would be interested in that article!
There is also the weight issue, of adding a piston rod.

True, although if the piston rod is effectively replacing the bolt carrier it might come out in the wash?

Watching high-speed captures of an ak47 firing vs an ar15 pattern shows some pretty interesting dynamic motion.

[Wolf]

Watching high-speed captures of an ak47 firing vs an ar15 pattern shows some pretty interesting dynamic motion.

links?

10 fkn chars...

[wbks]

Reminds me i recently saw on you tube an interview with a marine sniper - its about 25mins long but was pretty interesting.

he said one time the enemy was looking for him and was so close one of the soldiers took a leak on him as he thought he was a bush!

Interesting point he made was how he had to kill people, lots of people, that had done no harm to him and that messed him up slightly.. but i think hes pretty nuts anyway!The fact that you get a more vivid shot, and anticipation before that being able to see the persons face at times means it is a lot more personal than blasting a GPMG at a silhouette, and takes a different kind of person to do it. Read that a lot of times, and told that by an RM, so I guess that's why he seems crazier than most! Link to the vid you're talking about?

[Mr Merde]

The fact that you get a more vivid shot, and anticipation before that being able to see the persons face at times means it is a lot more personal than blasting a GPMG at a silhouette, and takes a different kind of person to do it. Read that a lot of times, and told that by an RM, so I guess that's why he seems crazier than most! Link to the vid you're talking about?

Before you pull the trigger its just a target.

After you have pulled the trigger its just "dead meat"

Whats hard in that?

T-shirt anyone

[wbks]

Before you pull the trigger its just a target.

After you have pulled the trigger its just "dead meat"

Whats hard in that?

T-shirt anyoneLol, huh? I suppose you've done plenty of sniping in the battle field, then? I can think of a few million cases proving there seems to be something a little "hard in that"

[Indiana_Jones]

Lol, huh? I suppose you've done plenty of sniping in the battle field, then? I can think of a few million cases proving there seems to be something a little "hard in that"

Not if one takes their daily HTFU pills!

Also depends on how much one hates the enemy....

-Indy

[jono035]

links?

10 fkn chars...

I think it was from a TV show on weapons technology that I saw about 10 years ago. Basically had a head to head comparison of the 2 rifles in a bunch of marksmanship tests, semi auto and full auto firing. Basically the AK performed much worse than the M16 and they then showed some operating diagrams of the 2 different systems and some high speed camera footage of them firing, the AK was bucking around and bending like a damn banana whereas the M16 had a little bit of a shimmy but mostly kept really straight.

They attributed it to a lot of different things, more rigid construction of the receiver/barrel, the differing gas systems, the different angle of the stocks etc. It was a damn interesting show actually, will take a look around and see if I can find the name of it.

Edit: Apparently the show may have been a Discovery Channel show called Greatest Military Clashes and like all good American TV it was mostly bollocks. Apparently the arguments used were valid but they exaggerated the results to make the difference seem much more pronounced. Apparently the guy firing the AK47 only got 1 round on a man sized target at 100m in full auto mode...

[wbks]

Not if one takes their daily HTFU pills!

Also depends on how much one hates the enemy....

-IndyAhh forget it, I just think it's a bit rich that people never ventured into a warzone can even mention soldiers needing to take HTFU pills for reacting differently to killing another human being in a very personal way. But what's the point in arguing over it. I suppose the former SAS troopers turned book writers and speakers popping up over the UK aren't hard. Even mentioning not feeling devoid of empathy when blowing someones brains out!... Pfft, Special Air Service softies, eh!

[The Pastor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBMdJWKEFbg

Thats the link to the interview

[jono035]

Ahh forget it, I just think it's a bit rich that people never ventured into a warzone can even mention soldiers needing to take HTFU pills for reacting differently to killing another human being in a very personal way. But what's the point in arguing over it

Well I think Chris has more Military Service history than the rest of the regular posters here put together...

That's not to say he was out there sniping people while being peed on but there are plenty of people who find themselves in plenty of fucked up situations. Idolizing one subset of those people (especially a subset who end up in those situations very deliberately) is disingenuous.

Edit: Try noting the text you add when you edit a post, makes it a hell of a lot less confusing for those trying to respond to you.

[wbks]

Well I think Chris has more Military Service history than the rest of the regular posters here put together...

That's not to say he was out there sniping people while being peed on but there are plenty of people who find themselves in plenty of fucked up situations. Idolizing one subset of those people (especially a subset who end up in those situations very deliberately) is disingenuous.

Edit: Try noting the text you add when you edit a post, makes it a hell of a lot less confusing for those trying to respond to you.Yea sweet as, I just think it's "silly" when people criticize things they have no experience with. I of course have no more experience with the subject, but I sure as hell wont pass any judgments on what any war fighter does until I've been in a similar situation.

[jono035]

Yea sweet as, I just think it's "silly" when people criticize things they have no experience with. I of course have no more experience with the subject, but I sure as hell wont pass any judgments on what any war fighter does until I've been in a similar situation.

It is a relatively pointless argument anyway. Much the same as those kids that got caught clowning around with the Nazi flag. If you had to get up on TV and apologise to the country every time you did something boneheaded and offended someone as a kid then I'd watch even less TV...

[Mr Merde]

Lol, huh? I suppose you've done plenty of sniping in the battle field, then? I can think of a few million cases proving there seems to be something a little "hard in that"

Talk to a person before you make broad statements. They have a habit of comming back on you and biting you in the arse.
:Playnice:

[Mr Merde]

Not if one takes their daily HTFU pills!

Also depends on how much one hates the enemy....

-Indy


Or you just dont really give a flying fu<k

[Indiana_Jones]

It is a relatively pointless argument anyway. Much the same as those kids that got caught clowning around with the Nazi flag. If you had to get up on TV and apologise to the country every time you did something boneheaded and offended someone as a kid then I'd watch even less TV...

I'd be fucked lol

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

Or you just dont really give a flying fu<k

Oh yea, that too :banana:

But yea wbks, wrong thread for moral views on military action etc. We're all about the guns here baby.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Oh yea, that too :banana:

But yea wbks, wrong thread for moral views on military action etc. We're all about the guns here baby.

-Indy

Agreed.

Talking of which I pick up the 12 gauge coach gun, this lunchtime.
Comes with a full set of chokes for its 18" barrels and 15 boxes of #7 shells.

[The Pastor]

but hang all those poor terriorts getting shot and for what? no real reason at all. Criminals have rights too.





































The right to be shot!

[jono035]

Agreed.

Talking of which I pick up the 12 gauge coach gun, this lunchtime.
Comes with a full set of chokes for its 18" barrels and 15 boxes of #7 shells.

Nice, you going to try get some noise out of it tonight or wait to the weekend?

[Mr Merde]

Nice, you going to try get some noise out of it tonight or wait to the weekend?


I thought I may try it on a bunny or two.

I wonder how it will handle #4 shot?

[The Pastor]

I thought I may try it on a bunny or two.

I wonder how it will handle #4 shot?
I think it will go off with a bang!

[Mr Merde]

I think it will go off with a bang!

GO BANG

of course but just wondering how the following will be affected;

"To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts. — Whatever draws or presses another is as much drawn or pressed by that other. If you press a stone with your finger, the finger is also pressed by the stone. If a horse draws a stone tied to a rope, the horse (if I may so say) will be equally drawn back towards the stone: for the distended rope, by the same endeavour to relax or unbend itself, will draw the horse as much towards the stone, as it does the stone towards the horse, and will obstruct the progress of the one as much as it advances that of the other. If a body impinges upon another, and by its force changes the motion of the other, that body also (because of the equality of the mutual pressure) will undergo an equal change, in its own motion, toward the contrary part. The changes made by these actions are equal, not in the velocities but in the motions of the bodies; that is to say, if the bodies are not hindered by any other impediments. For, as the motions are equally changed, the changes of the velocities made toward contrary parts are reciprocally proportional to the bodies."

[jono035]

GO BANG

of course but just wondering how the following will be affected;

"To every action there is always opposed an equal reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts. — Whatever draws or presses another is as much drawn or pressed by that other. If you press a stone with your finger, the finger is also pressed by the stone. If a horse draws a stone tied to a rope, the horse (if I may so say) will be equally drawn back towards the stone: for the distended rope, by the same endeavour to relax or unbend itself, will draw the horse as much towards the stone, as it does the stone towards the horse, and will obstruct the progress of the one as much as it advances that of the other. If a body impinges upon another, and by its force changes the motion of the other, that body also (because of the equality of the mutual pressure) will undergo an equal change, in its own motion, toward the contrary part. The changes made by these actions are equal, not in the velocities but in the motions of the bodies; that is to say, if the bodies are not hindered by any other impediments. For, as the motions are equally changed, the changes of the velocities made toward contrary parts are reciprocally proportional to the bodies."

Forecast: Pain and bruising? (and hopefully far worse for the bunnies...)

[The Pastor]

Forecast: Pain and bruising? (and hopefully far worse for the bunnies...)
well you can buy an indy pad - they are like a maxi pad for your shoulder.