The firearm thread

[jono035]

Well you can buy the tracer bullets easily enough, I think SAI had a pretty big box of them on the floor, all 30 cal...

[sAsLEX]

sAsLEX dude, be an awesome guy and bring us some surplus tracer/incendiary ammo eh? Of the 7.62mm variety please.

represent me at my court martial?

[Mr Merde]

represent me at my court martial?

I'll have a word with Bruce Pepprel for you. Old school mates are supposed to help each other out. Big wig in your service isnt he?

[Wolf]

Other than selves, firearms, ammo and associated safety/fun paraphernalia, what else do you want us to bring out? Stuff for barby? Salads? Wot.

[Drunken Monkey]

represent me at my court martial?

Yeah sure, i'll tell 'em you're a straight up guy. I don't know if that will help much, they'll probably be able to tell that I'm lying. ;)

[ManDownUnder]

Other than selves, firearms, ammo and associated safety/fun paraphernalia, what else do you want us to bring out? Stuff for barby? Salads? Wot.

I recall a while back I bought meself a few far too many 12g hulls. Anyone want some? Bring some plastics bags if ya do.

[Indiana_Jones]

Yep, guns, booze, meat, ammo, sunblock etc

the normal sort of stuff :niceone:

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Other than selves, firearms, ammo and associated safety/fun paraphernalia, what else do you want us to bring out? Stuff for barby? Salads? Wot.

Bring something to drink and something to throw onto the cooker for you to scoff

[Mr Merde]

GIJoe and Donnor Confirmed attendace. Called the farmer he has moved the livestock.

Looks like we got a shoot on.

Whooooohee.

Love the smell of nitrocellose in the morning. Doesnt really have the punch as naplam does it?

About 12 of us plus kids. Should be good shooting.

Chris

[Wolf]

any word at all from jrandom?

[sAsLEX]

Just got home from last night, heading down shortly.......

[jono035]

Just waiting on Indy then I'll be heading out...

[sAsLEX]

Good day throwing lead down range.

Enjoyed the black powder through my 38-40!

10-22 is driving tacks as well.

[Flip]

sAsLEX dude, be an awesome guy and bring us some surplus tracer/incendiary ammo eh? Of the 7.62mm variety please.

Be careful. We took a SMLE rabbit shooting using old tracer rounds. Had a ball until one ricocheted off into a pile of dead trees. Didn't catch fire but we stopped shooting them PDQ.

[jono035]

Thanks for an awesome day, Chris. Was a fitting farewell for the Onewhero range with a heck of a lot of lead thrown by quite the range of old and new firearms.

Was good meeting you, GIJoe and MDU, and good to see the rest of the familiar faces again. We need to do this again once the new range is up and running, that way I can bring my pistols down and shoot those, rather than having to rely on other peoples generosity with their toys.

Sooooo... When's the housewarming for the new place?

[Wolf]

Bloody awesome shoot, great meeting new people and catching up with old ones. Had a great time and got quite an education - the "Dark Side" is gonna have another reloader just as soon as I can get myself stocks of shot, BP and caps. (and some scoops and a few other bits 'n' bobs) Cheers once again for a fantastic day. Definitely a fitting - but sad - farewell.

[sAsLEX]

Anyone pick up a little tupperware type container with oil, breakfree and patches?

I seem to have misplaced it!

[Mr Merde]

Anyone pick up a little tupperware type container with oil, breakfree and patches?

I seem to have misplaced it!

I have it. I'll keep it safe for you. Chris

[sAsLEX]

Also having issues getting the bore of my 38 clean, ideas?

[The Pastor]

Also having issues getting the bore of my 38 clean, ideas?

apply solvent

[Mr Merde]

Also having issues getting the bore of my 38 clean, ideas?

Black powder residue
Simple.

Boil a kettle and pour the boiled water down the barrel.

Pull it through with a bore snake.

Pass cleaning cloths through again .

Repeat until clean, oil

Even better method.

Buy some Balistol in spray can and liqiud form

Mix the liquid form 1 part balistol to 10 parts water.

Pour the boiling water down the barrel, spray the balistol\ water mix (nick name "Mooses Milk") down the barrel.

Pull through with a boresnake. Pass a couple of cleaning patches down the barrel. Should be clean now.

Take the spray and lightly spray down the barrel and all over the gun.

It should now be clean and protected. Balistol is good for protection of all metal parts and woodwork. No petrocarbons, all natuaral ingredients. Legally a food. Good for wound care etc.

Balistol can be obtained at Serious Shooters in Penrose. Its the BP shooters secret weapon.

After a competition I can clean my rifle, two pistols and shotgun in about 20 min all in using the above methods.

Chris

[ManDownUnder]

umm... oops - I seem to have left my 3M ("slap in the face" orange) earmuffs behind - I think one of Dincan's kids was wearing them?

Anyhoo - let me know if they show up. Probably cheaper to get new ones than return them from whence they came etc.

Thanks again Chris - a bloody good day

[Mr Merde]

umm... oops - I seem to have left my 3M ("slap in the face" orange) earmuffs behind - I think one of Dincan's kids was wearing them?

Anyhoo - let me know if they show up. Probably cheaper to get new ones than return them from whence they came etc.

Thanks again Chris - a bloody good day

I have those also. Put them in with all the shotgun hulls. Will keep til I see you at the house warming

[Mr Merde]

Just had news from the NSA forum

Our court case against the Police over their new interpretation of a MSSA has gone our way.

The Police have lost.

Our rational arguemnnts have swayed the judge.

Thumbhole grips are not MSSA.

More news as I receive it

[ManDownUnder]

I have those also. Put them in with all the shotgun hulls. Will keep til I see you at the house warming

Top man - cheers.

Just thinking about it - we could have used those hulls at 20, 50 and 100m for some serious target shooting...!


Our court case against the Police over their new interpretation of a MSSA has gone our way.

The Police have lost.


WOW! So how much reparation gets paid to those that were forced to either shell out on better safes or forced to surrender firearms?

[Wolf]

umm... oops - I seem to have left my 3M ("slap in the face" orange) earmuffs behind - I think one of Dincan's kids was wearing them?


I have those also.

Was about to say, Mitch (teen that came with Duncan and I) was going to pick them up along with Duncan's orange ones but Duncan said they weren't his. Figured they were still somewhere at Chris's.

[jono035]

Just had news from the NSA forum

Our court case against the Police over their new interpretation of a MSSA has gone our way.

The Police have lost.

Our rational arguemnnts have swayed the judge.

Thumbhole grips are not MSSA.

More news as I receive it

WE WON! The police re-classification of what is considered a 'Military Style Free Standing Pistol Grip' has been overturned.

Holy hell, that's a good feeling.

Time to figure out the next target!

[Mr Merde]

WE WON! The police re-classification of what is considered a 'Military Style Free Standing Pistol Grip' has been overturned.

Holy hell, that's a good feeling.

Time to figure out the next target!

2 things,

That damned hand in the police ask for if ypoou want to bring in an E cat

Trade me having access to the police firearms database

[jono035]

2 things,

That damned hand in the police ask for if ypoou want to bring in an E cat

Trade me having access to the police firearms database

Yeah, the hand-in is an interesting one but may be a difficult nut to crack due to the way the law hands off responsibility ot the 'commissioner'. Forcing the conditions imposed under this ability to be listed in plain view similar to the current laws would be a good start.

The TardeMe issue could certainly do with a closer inspection too.

So many things that could be done.

I'm guessing there is also going to be an AA #4 defense on the list somewhere there too...

[ManDownUnder]

Trade me having access to the police firearms database


Indeed. That's very concerning. I took a call from the big cheese at Trademe a while ago and he skilfully dodged the question of how they validate the FA license numbers. To my mind there are only two ways... an algorythm to generate them (in which case TM can creat the things... ?!?) or a list of valid ones to compare them against which I find more palatable if they have no other information. The Priovacy Commissioner was ok with what TM were doing also

The best news it I guess SexyLex can keep his 10/22 with the thumbhold stock...

[sAsLEX]

Thumbhole grips are not MSSA.



Damn! I am not a criminal anymore

[sAsLEX]

The best news it I guess SexyLex can keep his 10/22 with the thumbhold stock...

They never knew I had it!

Out of my cold dead hands!

[jono035]

Damn! I am not a criminal anymore

Oh well, you'll just have to find something else criminal to do... Dealing in illegal arms sounds much more fun than owning a thumbhole stock, doesn't it?

[ManDownUnder]

Oh well, you'll just have to find something else criminal to do... Dealing in illegal arms sounds much more fun than owning a thumbhole stock, doesn't it?

Being a navy boy - I'm sure there's other places to stick yer thumb?

[Indiana_Jones]

Interesting auction.... (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-274761810.htm)


<img src="http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/20/121744320_full.jpg">

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

Interesting auction.... (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-274761810.htm)


<img src="http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/20/121744320_full.jpg">

-Indy

The one good reason to have a daughter.......... to help you sell an old rifle to upgrade!

[Indiana_Jones]

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-274949266.htm

Could be worth it just for the action...

-Indy

[jono035]

I saw one go for a couple of hundred that had a serviceable bore and hadn't been attacked by a grinder...

[Indiana_Jones]

I saw one go for a couple of hundred that had a serviceable bore and hadn't been attacked by a grinder...

Yea, the guy I brought my one from had another one with a grinded action, looked like shit.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

The advertisement said the current owner bought this with the intention of building a 45-70 rifle. If this is the case then the condition of the bore is irelevant as it will be replace with a neew barrel.

What you should be focusing on id the condition of the action.

Even the woodwork is of little concequence as that can be replaced.

Ask about the action. Thats what you are really buying here.

[jono035]

The advertisement said the current owner bought this with the intention of building a 45-70 rifle. If this is the case then the condition of the bore is irelevant as it will be replace with a neew barrel.

What you should be focusing on id the condition of the action.

Even the woodwork is of little concequence as that can be replaced.

Ask about the action. Thats what you are really buying here.

Yeah, but the guy said the action has been attacked with a grinder!

[Mr Merde]

Yeah, but the guy said the action has been attacked with a grinder!

How had it been attacked? Just to remove the rust etc or taking off all the markings.

I would be a bit dubious as to its strength if the latter.

I wouldnt pay the $200 he is asking for it.

[Mr Merde]

Just had a close look at the pictures.

It looks as though he used the grinder to take rust from the outside of the action. Cant see too much damage to the action.

I personally still would baulk at paying $200 for it gbut I do agree it would be a lovely project gun.

Maybe not 45-70. Personally I would be looking at an old British caliber such as .450 Rigby

[jono035]

It said the back of the action, looks like it has been reshaped to smooth off the back edge.

[Mr Merde]

On second thoughts I could have a lot of fun with this action.

Pistol grip stock, lever shaped to fit. Nice bit of wood and a barrel chambered for an express round.

I've seen good conversions of this rifle befoire. Like all military rifles, civilians have adapted them for their own use.

Maybe $200 isnt too bad.

[jono035]

I've seen a couple go through on trademe, the last one was about $250 and looked to be in much better condition than that one. I was looking at it as an interesting candidate for a kiwi conversion!

[Mr Merde]

Very strong action. Single quiet shot.

[jono035]

Precisely, although with a 250gr bullet only hitting 39k PSI, even with AS30N shotgun powder, I don't think the strength of the action is going to be that important!

Coolness factor, on the other hand...

[Mr Merde]

Precisely, although with a 250gr bullet only hitting 39k PSI, even with AS30N shotgun powder, I don't think the strength of the action is going to be that important!

Coolness factor, on the other hand...

So cool it would be frigid

Icicles dripping from the barrel

[jono035]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCHtw6WbbnM

Amusing rant by Ted Nugent about 2nd amendment rights that someone sent me today.

[ManDownUnder]

Speaking to a French guy last night - I discovered he hunts... so naturally we got talking. I found out a little more about how and where he hunts.

He's in Paris so he has to drive 50kms to the nearest game park where he, selects the animal he's going to hunt, they let it loose in the prescribed area, he pays to hunt it, and he pays more for the animal if he kills it.

AYvMeT2GC14

[sAsLEX]

http://www.3news.co.nz/Gun-enthusiast-wins-court-battle-with-police/tabid/309/articleID/144395/Default.aspx


oh you see my dangerous .22 in the article...... before its coat of paint anyways

[Mr Merde]

Speaking to a French guy last night - I discovered he hunts... so naturally we got talking. I found out a little more about how and where he hunts.

He's in Paris so he has to drive 50kms to the nearest game park where he, selects the animal he's going to hunt, they let it loose in the prescribed area, he pays to hunt it, and he pays more for the animal if he kills it.

AYvMeT2GC14

How much did he say this cost him. Bet it wasnt cheap.

[ManDownUnder]

How much did he say this cost him. Bet it wasnt cheap.

I don't know but got the impression it was in the hundreds of euros for a deer

[ManDownUnder]

WANTED TO BORROW/TRY

.410 shotgun. Preferably a single shot quality one. Anyone out there able to help? No hurry...

[Mr Merde]

WANTED TO BORROW/TRY

.410 shotgun. Preferably a single shot quality one. Anyone out there able to help? No hurry...

Sorry I dont have one. You can get adapters to fit a 12 guage that allows you to shoot a .410

[ManDownUnder]

Sorry I dont have one. You can get adapters to fit a 12 guage that allows you to shoot a .410

Not sure how that would work on the pump action... but certainly worth knowing - cheers

[Mr Merde]

Not sure how that would work on the pump action... but certainly worth knowing - cheers

Get a cheap SxS. The chamber inserts should work. The weight will kill any recoil and the youngster should enjoy it. Single barrels are a heavy recoil for a kid even with a .410.

I know a person with a ,410 SxS, I';ll try and contact him.

[ManDownUnder]

Get a cheap SxS. The chamber inserts should work. The weight will kill any recoil and the youngster should enjoy it. Single barrels are a heavy recoil for a kid even with a .410.

I know a person with a ,410 SxS, I';ll try and contact him.

On the strict condition it's quid pro.... thank you!

[Indiana_Jones]

What a happy man

-Indy

[jono035]

I assume you mean Chris... I look like I'm either singing, sneezing or letting one rip...

[Mr Merde]

Always happy after a days shooting.

Been at home yesterday and today. Moving house.

We leave the Onewhero range on Friday.

2 truck loads delivered to the new house. Tomorrow another 2 then on Friday the last of the furniture and us.

Two local farmers have given me permission to come back to Onewhero and shoot on their land. They were offers out of the blue, totally unexpected.

Have to build a gun cabinet, a reloading bench and a casting bench for the garage.

Off work until Tuesday. Furniture moving Saturday and Sunday.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

Well the time has come and gone. Sharron and I have moved from the small block to the urban dwelling.

5 small truckloads of stuff to move. I am cream crackered.

The garage is chockerblock full. We have a load of stuff to get rid of.

Its a sad day but it will be good for us in the long run.

I ache all over. Tomorrow we strart sorting out what goes into the house and what stays in the garage. I also start planning my reloading area and the casting area. Plan on getting a good vertical drill and such so I can start playing around with making a couple of rifles.

I have the plans for a big 50. Thats the aim. I'll start with a few simple projects first.

As said before I can now with the savings made on mortgage, gas, bills etc It looks as though I will be able to get a new rifle every 2-3 months.

PM me for the new address.

We will be having a house warming very soon and yes Indy, Sharron remembers you wanted a bed for the night. We have put in bunks and a single in the spare room.

Chris

[jono035]

I'll take a bed for the night as well if possible. By bed, I mean anything more comfy than a concrete floor.

[Indiana_Jones]

We will be having a house warming very soon and yes Indy, Sharron remembers you wanted a bed for the night. We have put in bunks and a single in the spare room.

Chris

I think she said something about me being in bed with you guys? =/

-Indy

[jono035]

I think she said something about me being in bed with you guys? =/

-Indy

I knew you had the hots for Chris... It's pretty good of Sharon to share him!

Chris: Glad to hear that you're all done moving and not too traumatised by the experience. Keep us updated of the plans with regard to the reloading/casting area, I'm pretty interested to see what you come up with. I'm looking for reasons to ride the new bike around at the moment so PM me your address and I'll wander down and check the new place out (and lend a hand with anything required) sometime.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Just spent the day at the Deerstalkers range out Riverhead, great day, black powder, cowboy action shooting, military arms demo, had a play with a semi-auto shot gun.
Even managed to knock over a couple of clays. Thoroughly recommend their open days.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Akld Arms Fair next weekend, West Wave Centre, Henderson. Doors open @ 9.00am.

[Urano]

O_O
only a third of you is unarmed?????

i'm a bit surprised... as requested in the first post i don't want to talk about right or wrong, but i'm just curious: do you think is really necessary for you? or you use it to go hunting?
what's the guns regulation there?

[jono035]

Hi Urano,

Welcome to the board! It's always interesting to have people dropping in to chat with us from other parts of the world!

The gun regulations here are that with a basic license (background check and short training course) and $50 lockable rack that you can own any rifle providing that if they are a semi-automatic then they can only take a limited number of rounds in the magazine and don't have a few other minor inconsequential features like flash hiders, bayonet lugs or free-standing pistol grips. Those firearms as well as pistols are held on a separate endorsement to your license which requires much tighter security and a more stringent background check.

Most firearms use in this country is for hunting. There are a lot of pests in this country that hunting does a good job of helping to control. Rabbits, possums, ducks, turkeys, goats, pigs, wallaby and deer are among the usual list.

As to the 'necessity' of it, I don't believe that firearm ownership is necessary as such, but I am interested in why you would ask this question? Firearms owners in this country (as with many others) are among the most law abiding segment of the community. We need to be in order to keep our licenses. Drunk driving charges, assault charges, domestic abuse accusations etc. can all result in our license being suspended and our firearms seized.

Firearms legislation is also only effective among the people who choose to live their lives within the law. Here, as in most places around the world, the tightening of firearms legislation hasn't affected firearm crime rates because the people committing the crimes are simply using stolen or smuggled firearms and don't care about breaking a couple of extra laws. Australia and the UK are both seeing this effect, now, and have some of the toughest 'gun control' legislation in the world.

My experience has been that people focus on the tool used instead of the person using it far too much when it comes to firearms. After all, it's legal to carry lockpicks, hammers, pry bars, pocket knives etc. and all of those are used to commit crimes every single day?

[Mr Merde]

....
what's the guns regulation there?

We have 4 catagories of firearms licencing here in NZ

A cat) allows us to own and use sporting rifles and shotguns.

B cat) allows us to own and use pistols under certain conditions.

C cat) allows us to collect firearms but not shoot them. Under this level we are allowed fully functional machine guns, short barreled pistols, mortars, light cannons etc

E cat ) allows us to own Mitilary Pattern Semi Automatic firearms

There is another licence catagory, that is for a dealer. Most of us do not aspire to be such in this country.

Most shooters in NZ only bother going for the A cat licence. It allows us hunting rifles and shotguns. With the rifles we can go after the pests that jono035 mentioned and the shotguns allows us to participate in clay shoots or in season to go duck hunting.

Hope this helps

Chris

[Urano]

Thanks Mr. Fransèe ;) very clear...



Hi Urano,

Welcome to the board!

Hi Jono... thanks for the welcome (and W A F GREAT BIKE you have! sincere congratulations... :niceone: )


Those firearms as well as pistols are held on a separate endorsement to your license which requires much tighter security

uhm... let me guess... because pistols are easier to carry and to hide, and usually unuseful for hunting, so they'll ask themselves a bigger WHY do you need such an object...
how's my shot? ;)



As to the 'necessity' of it, I don't believe that firearm ownership is necessary as such, but I am interested in why you would ask this question? Firearms owners in this country (as with many others) are among the most law abiding segment of the community. We need to be in order to keep our licenses. Drunk driving charges, assault charges, domestic abuse accusations etc. can all result in our license being suspended and our firearms seized.

:)
no, don't worry... i always say that guns never kill anybody, even if a lot o people simply don't get the point.
my question about the "necessity" was driven by the doubt that you could think at the ownership as a "security necessity", to feel safe in your house or to face crimes or fear of crimes...
as in usa, where beside the hunting they push on the security function of arms. "if the guns will be out of the law only the outlaw will have the guns" you know? (I ADORE the sense of humour of John Casey... :D :D :D :D :D)
so the question was intended to understand if you feel safe, and use the guns for joy and sport only, or you have a diffuse sense of "unsecurity" and you need to have a gun.

about the fact, my idea is that i have no problems with gun free sell, or almost free. swiss had a militia army 'till 10 years ago, so everybody had an assault rifle in the locker, and swiss was sure not a "far west" where fearing to walk on the streets... :niceone:
beside that, i'm happy that in italy guns are not freely sold: keep away from children...

about me on the other hand, i would never buy a gun for safety, 'cause i don't want to be in the occasion of deciding to pull the trigger or not; and i don't like hunting with firearms. i feel it unfair. a sport is fair if both the contenders have a possibility to win, but if you fire a 20 cm bird with a 1m and a half rose of lead, where's its possibility? i'll accept hunt only with arch. try to hunt a wild boar with a monolithic arch and a three blade point, THEN it's fair. if you're less than precise it'll be ITS turn, and you'd better to be a good runner... :D :D :D :D

[Mr Merde]

Urano,

In New Zealand we have a group of people who are dedicated wild boar hunters.

They use a pack of dogs to track the animal and then once it is cornered the hunter goes in and finishes the animal with a knife.

One of the girls I work with lists this as her "sport". She raises the dogs, trains them and sticks the boar. She is the admin assistant in our local art gallery.

Look up boar hunting in NZ on google.

The boars have been known to go as high as 150+ kg in weight with 100mm+ tusks.

[jono035]

I see your points but there are many people in the US who enjoy hunting with pistols or use them as defense against dangerous wildlife (bears etc.). I think you are correct about the perception of pistol ownership but I don't think it lines up with reality. There is a definite sense of the police wanting to remove any ability for you to be able to defend yourself, which is one of my main gripes given that the police force is naturally a reactive (rather than proactive) entity.

As to the hunting being fair then I do agree with you to an extent. The idea of hunting for trophies isn't my idea of fun and hunting for meat should be done with care to be done sustainably.

We do, however, have a few massive pest problems in New Zealand, the main one being possums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possum). I grew up on the edge of a large native forest reserve and looking at photos from 10-15 years ago, it is amazing to see just how much damage has been done. I hunt these for fun, pest control and they make pretty good dog food, too! Apparently the plucked fur is also quite valuable (~$5 per possum) but I have no personal experience with this, only from friends.

All of the people I have hunted with place a lot of emphasis on only taking shots that will have a good chance of killing the animal humanely which is sadly something that I have heard extremely conflicting reports about when it comes to those who thrive on more 'difficult' styles of hunting, such as bowhunting.

[Urano]

The boars have been known to go as high as 150+ kg in weight with 100mm+ tusks.

i know Mr... some years ago i had about 2000 nz$ of damage on my car by hitting a boar behind a turn at night in the mountains near modena... it wasn't funny...



There is a definite sense of the police wanting to remove any ability for you to be able to defend yourself, which is one of my main gripes given that the police force is naturally a reactive (rather than proactive) entity.

i completely agree with you, but the fact remain: if you find someone in your house at night, you can hope that he will go away, with or without what he was lookin for, but above all without hurting someone. or you can take the gun you have in the drawer, and then he will take the one in the belt, if he had one, and now, who will fire first? so it comes clear that if you have a gun you HAVE to use it in that cases, and to use it first, and to double the big target fast. because if you don't use it then would have been better not to take it and make him use his, so there would be no difference in having it and keep it in the drawer or not having it.
i don't want to be in that situation, and i prey not to be in the first one neither...



All of the people I have hunted with place a lot of emphasis on only taking shots that will have a good chance of killing the animal humanely which is sadly something that I have heard extremely conflicting reports about when it comes to those who thrive on more 'difficult' styles of hunting, such as bowhunting.

i've heard about your problems with opossums... so i completely understand you're action in those cases... and i have sadly to agree with you about bowhunting. after all i never went hunting, i only tried to see it as a sport from the eye of the victims... a little bit as the spanish "corrida", so adversed from animal lovers, but to me seems a fair play, so it has its honour... ;)

[The Pastor]

i know Mr... some years ago i had about 2000 nz$ of damage on my car by hitting a boar behind a turn at night in the mountains near modena... it wasn't funny...




i completely agree with you, but the fact remain: if you find someone in your house at night, you can hope that he will go away, with or without what he was lookin for, but above all without hurting someone. or you can take the gun you have in the drawer, and then he will take the one in the belt, if he had one, and now, who will fire first? so it comes clear that if you have a gun you HAVE to use it in that cases, and to use it first, and to double the big target fast. because if you don't use it then would have been better not to take it and make him use his, so there would be no difference in having it and keep it in the drawer or not having it.
i don't want to be in that situation, and i prey not to be in the first one neither...




i've heard about your problems with opossums... so i completely understand you're action in those cases... and i have sadly to agree with you about bowhunting. after all i never went hunting, i only tried to see it as a sport from the eye of the victims... a little bit as the spanish "corrida", so adversed from animal lovers, but to me seems a fair play, so it has its honour... ;)

yeah nice argument except for one flaw, lots of criminals already have guns.

[Wolf]

i completely agree with you, but the fact remain: if you find someone in your house at night, you can hope that he will go away, with or without what he was lookin for, but above all without hurting someone. or you can take the gun you have in the drawer, and then he will take the one in the belt, if he had one, and now, who will fire first? so it comes clear that if you have a gun you HAVE to use it in that cases, and to use it first, and to double the big target fast. because if you don't use it then would have been better not to take it and make him use his, so there would be no difference in having it and keep it in the drawer or not having it.
i don't want to be in that situation, and i prey not to be in the first one neither...
The thing is, purchasing a firearm for home/self defense is not an option here in New Zealand. Nor is keeping a loaded firearm in a drawer in case someone intrudes into your house in the small hours of the morning. As to drawing a weapon - any kind, even a knife or a baseball bat - on hearing a prowler and then actively stalking them through your house, the big worry should be that you've crapped all over your "self defense" plea and wandered into the realms of attempted assault with a weapon, if not attempted murder.

A canny prosecution lawyer - and yes, you will be prosecuted if you use a weapon on someone - would be asking the jury to consider how you thought yourself to be justified in arming yourself if you had merely heard an intruder.

It's not the Wild Wild West, you can't sleep with a gun under your pillow and come out guns a-blazin' or try to have a quickdraw contest with an armed intruder.

[jono035]

The thing is, purchasing a firearm for home/self defense is not an option here in New Zealand. Nor is keeping a loaded firearm in a drawer in case someone intrudes into your house in the small hours of the morning. As to drawing a weapon - any kind, even a knife or a baseball bat - on hearing a prowler and then actively stalking them through your house, the big worry should be that you've crapped all over your "self defense" plea and wandered into the realms of attempted assault with a weapon, if not attempted murder.

A canny prosecution lawyer - and yes, you will be prosecuted if you use a weapon on someone - would be asking the jury to consider how you thought yourself to be justified in arming yourself if you had merely heard an intruder.

It's not the Wild Wild West, you can't sleep with a gun under your pillow and come out guns a-blazin' or try to have a quickdraw contest with an armed intruder.

No, but there are enough stories of elderly people getting raped and assaulted in their own homes etc. to make me believe that this wouldn't be the silliest option, really.

[Wolf]

I fully agree, Jono, it's becoming more and more apparent to those of us that don't have our heads up our arses that the crims are armed with something more often than not these days and are more inclined to use a weapon on you now than in the past - but that does not alter the fact that if you use a weapon you will be arrested, you will be prosecuted, the prosecution will do their best to convince the jury that you were acting unreasonably and/or maliciously and it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not your assumption was reasonable under the circumstances.

If the jury is made up of people whose heads are up their arses, then you are likely to be found guilty of anything from attempted aggravated assault to premeditated murder depending on the outcome of your actions and what charges are levelled against you.

Bear in mind that the sole function of a jury is to determine who has the better lawyer - so you'd better hope that your lawyer is more adept than the QC.

[jono035]

I fully agree, Jono, it's becoming more and more apparent to those of us that don't have our heads up our arses that the crims are armed with something more often than not these days and are more inclined to use a weapon on you now than in the past - but that does not alter the fact that if you use a weapon you will be arrested, you will be prosecuted, the prosecution will do their best to convince the jury that you were acting unreasonably and/or maliciously and it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not your assumption was reasonable under the circumstances.

If the jury is made up of people whose heads are up their arses, then you are likely to be found guilty of anything from attempted aggravated assault to premeditated murder depending on the outcome of your actions and what charges are levelled against you.

Bear in mind that the sole function of a jury is to determine who has the better lawyer - so you'd better hope that your lawyer is more adept than the QC.

Certainly, the first thing to do after shooting an intruder would be fire a couple of warning shots into the roof, the second would be call the best lawyer that you can possibly afford, up to and including mortgaging your house. The fact that we've gotten to the point where it is another way you're more likely to be able to keep your family safe if you're rich is particularly amusing.

[Wolf]

You gotta have a house you can mortgage? Well, I'm fucked, then. Or at least I will be if I ever defended myself with a weapon: repeatedly, in the prison showers...

BTW, you really ought to read Massad Ayoob's In Gravest Extreme. Most fascinating book. It's pitched to USAians but a lot of the principles apply here in spades.

[Indiana_Jones]

....better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six

-Indy

[Drunken Monkey]

Certainly, the first thing to do after shooting an intruder would be fire a couple of warning shots into the roof, the second would be call the best lawyer that you can possibly afford, up to and including mortgaging your house. The fact that we've gotten to the point where it is another way you're more likely to be able to keep your family safe if you're rich is particularly amusing.

Better than that, keep an unregistered, unserialised .22 Sterling or equally cheap shooter locked away just for this situation. Shoot the bastard with your own favourite, then dig out the Stirling, scrub it for prints, put it in his hands and fire at the wall near where you shot him from. Then you've got the old "He shot at me first!" defense...

[Wolf]

....better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six

-Indy
Methinks you're presupposing a favourable judgement, there. If they judge you guilty, you may have been better off dead. :buggerd:

Personally, I don't like either option. Anyone know of any Army-surplus bunkers going for low rent near shops, primary school and a bus stop in the Hamilton area?

[Wolf]

Better than that, keep an unregistered, unserialised .22 Sterling or equally cheap shooter locked away just for this situation. Shoot the bastard with your own favourite, then dig out the Stirling, scrub it for prints, put it in his hands and fire at the wall near where you shot him from. Then you've got the old "He shot at me first!" defense...

Until the neighbours are questioned and say they heard a Earth-shattering "BOOM" followed by a loud crack two minutes later and the cops start thinking of the differences between the .300 Winchester Magnum hole in the victim's chest and the dinky little .22lr hole in the wall...

You did aim for the chest, I take it...

[jono035]

That's why the warning shot is a good idea, shoot him once, check that they're dead and then fire the warning shot. If you take 2 shots to drop them then fire 2 warning shots!

[Mr Merde]

It takes a shit load of nerve and training to accurately and quickly, shoot someone.

Some years ago a friend of mine was recounting the story of his first time in combat. It was Mozambique. He was in a patrol that stumbled onto an enemy patrol.

The fire fight started. My friend carefully took aim and fired. he counted his rounds and dropped the magazine when his count told him he was empty. At the end of the encounter. both sides backed off. My mate checked his rifle and he still had the safety on. He hadnt fired a shot. he thought he had. at his feet were a few full magazines.

Tim was shocked. needless to say the next time he actually fired his rifle.

What I am trying to say is that it takes a lot to take aim at a person and pull the trigger. knowing that you are going to cause a lot of damage or even death. most people freeze, even trained soldiers freeze.

Try sitting in a ditch, on top of a hill, staring down a scope at someone who doesnt even know you are there. Then pulling the trigger.

Most people have an ingrained sense of horror at the thought of actually killing another. It takes a lot to actually do it.


I preach so please forgive me.b

[Wolf]

Good call, Chris. And a great illustration. One of my ex workmates told me of a mate of his: in the heat of battle, working the bolt action on his rifle furiously - but omitting to pull the trigger in between... ejected the entire contents of the mag, unfired, onto the ground.

[Urano]

t that if you use a weapon you will be arrested, you will be prosecuted, the prosecution will do their best to convince the jury that you were acting unreasonably and/or maliciously and it will be up to the jury to decide whether or not your assumption was reasonable under the circumstances.

then is more similar to italy than to usa. this clarify me the initial point: you all have guns for fun or hunt. thank you... ;)


Bear in mind that the sole function of a jury is to determine who has the better lawyer - so you'd better hope that your lawyer is more adept than the QC.

this is good :)


Certainly, the first thing to do after shooting an intruder would be fire a couple of warning shots into the roof

this is as well...


Better than that, keep an unregistered, unserialised .22 Sterling or equally cheap shooter locked away just for this situation

this is... EVIL!!!!
Devil's a child in comparison.... :D:D:D



It takes a shit load of nerve and training to accurately and quickly, shoot someone.

it's waaay true, and from this point derives my idea on armed defense. i've been in the army (here was mandatory...), i know hot to use a gun. but a crminal is criminal, and will probably have less doubts in using it than me. i don't want to check who has less scruples...

let's go hunting opossums... :niceone:

[Urano]

double post, sorry... (is not possible to erase a post??? we have vbull as well and it is.... )

[Swoop]

double post, sorry... (is not possible to erase a post??? we have vbull as well and it is.... )
Go into "edit post" then "Advanced" and there is the option to "Delete this post".

[Swoop]

March 22, 2010: A year ago, in response to user requests, the U.S. Army ordered upgrades for its sniper equipment, including 38.4 million rounds of .300 Winchester magnum ammunition for the newly modified M-24 sniper rifles. The new ammo costs about $1.30 per round. The army is also modifying rifle magazines to hold ten, rather than five, rounds. A new scope (25x instead of 10x) and a flash suppressor is being provided as well. Other changes are in the works. Snipers have been enormously successful in Iraq and Afghanistan, and when new gear is asked for, it is usually provided.
Snipers have been asking for a longer range weapon, but not one as bulky and heavy as the 30 pound .50 caliber (12.7mm) rifle (which is good to about 2,000 meters). Thus the army is modifying existing M24 rifles to fire the more powerful .300 Winchester Magnum ("Win Mag") round. It was felt that this gave the snipers all the additional range they needed, without requiring a much heavier rifle. SOCOM has been using this approach since the early 1990s.

The calls were loudest from snipers operating in Afghanistan, where U.S. Army and Marine Corps shooters wanted a sniper rifle that can consistently get kills out to 1,800 meters. The current 7.62mm round was good only to about 800 meters. The 300 Winchester magnum is a more powerful, but not much larger, round than the current 7.62mm one. By replacing the barrel and receiver of the $6,700 M24 sniper rifle, for about $4,000, you can fire the .300 Winchester Magnum round. This is longer (at 7.62 x 67mm) than the standard 7.62x51mm round, and is good out to 1,200 meters. An improved version of the round is expected to extend that range another 200 meters or so. The only downside is the greater recoil for the Win Mag, which requires snipers spend some time and effort adjusting to this.

There was another option, and that was to replace the barrel and receiver of the M24 sniper rifles to handle the .338 (8.6mm) Lapua Magnum round. Thus you still have a 17 pound sniper rifle, but with a round that can hit effectively out to about 1,600 meters. British snipers in Iraq, and especially Afghanistan, have found the Lapua Magnum round does the job at twice the range of the standard 7.62x51mm round. The 8.6mm round entered use in the early 1990s, and became increasingly popular with police and military snipers. Some NATO snipers have used this round in Afghanistan with much success, and have a decade of experience with these larger caliber rifles. Recognizing the popularity of the 8.6mm round, Barrett, the pioneer in 12.7mm sniper rifles, came out with a 15.5 pound version of its rifle, chambered for the 8.6mm. But the U.S. preferred the lighter .300 Winchester magnum solution.

This is not the first time the U.S. Army has quickly responded to sniper needs. Three years ago, in response to requests from snipers operating in urban areas of Iraq, the U.S. Army began issuing the M110 SASS (Semi-Automatic Sniper System). Urban snipers often have multiple targets, at relatively short ranges. They needed a semiautomatic rifle. Previously, many snipers have had success using tuned up M-14s (from the 1960s) as sniper rifles. While semi-automatic and rugged, the M-14 wasn't designed to be a sniper rifle. The M110 was a better semi-automatic sniper rifle, since it is inherently more reliable and accurate. As far back as World War II, it was known that there were many situations where a semi-automatic sniper rifle would come in handy. But it's taken over half a century to solve the reliability and accuracy problems.

The M110 is a based on the AR-10 rifle. The U.S. Navy has been buying a similar weapon, the SR25. This is also known as the Mk11 Sniper Rifle System (SRS). These new semi-automatic sniper rifles are 7.62mm weapons based on the designs of M-16 creator, Gene Stoner. The basis for the M-16 was the AR-15, and a 7.62mm version of that weapon was called the AR-10. About half the parts in the SR25 are interchangeable with those in the M-16. The Stoner sniper rifles achieved its high accuracy partly by using a 20 inch heavy floating barrel. The "floating" means that the barrel is attached only to the main body of the rifle to reduce resonance (which throws off accuracy.)

The M110 weighs 17.3 pounds in combat, and about 70 pounds with all components of the system. The M110 can use a ten or twenty round magazine. The 40.5 inch long rifle can have a six inch tube attached to the barrel, which reduces the noise and flash made when the rifle fires, and largely eliminates nearby dust rising into the air, which often gives away the snipers position.

The M110 will gradually replace many of the bolt-action M24s, while the remaining M24s will be converted to fire the .300 Winchester Magnum, for those snipers working somewhere, like Afghanistan, where more range is needed.



Interesting, but the M-14's were heavily used in Vietnam on sniper teams. Normally the spotter was armed with one of these in 7.62x51mm.

[ManDownUnder]

....better to be shot at by a twelve gauge than a six shooter"

-Indy


Ya reckon? You're probably right at anything more than 80m...

[scumdog]

Ya reckon? You're probably right at anything more than 80m...

But boy, if those OO buckshot or solid slugs DO hit you it'll smart!:blink::gob:

[Mr Merde]

But boy, if those OO buckshot or solid slugs DO hit you it'll smart!:blink::gob:

It would be safer to stand in front of the target and let Indiana open up with his Mosin. Havent seen him hit a target at anything more than 50 metres, yet.

[jono035]

But boy, if those OO buckshot or solid slugs DO hit you it'll smart!:blink::gob:

Wouldn't catch me in front of either at 80m really, just did a quick google and there are guys saying that they could reliably get 3-4 holes in a man-sized target at 100m with 00... Bugger that.

[Mr Merde]

Solids

The only way to go

[The Pastor]

I'd like to play around with the safety slug. that looked cool.

[Indiana_Jones]

It would be safer to stand in front of the target and let Indiana open up with his Mosin. Havent seen him hit a target at anything more than 50 metres, yet.

You need new glasses Chris :D

-Indy

[Wolf]

You need new glasses Chris :D

-Indy
I thought he was saying the same about you...

[ManDownUnder]

There's no need to pick on Indy to make him look silly...

(truth be told he's a good guy - just don't let hi... bugger)

[Mr Merde]

There's no need to pick on Indy to make him look silly...

(truth be told he's a good guy - just don't let hi... bugger)

But he is so much fun to wind up.
Leave an old man some pleasures in life.

[The Pastor]

But he is so much fun to wind up.
Leave an old man some pleasures in life.

andrew pleasures you? I always thought there was something going on

[ManDownUnder]

andrew pleasures you? I always thought there was something going on

You don't need to miss out - he has two hands...

[Mr Merde]

http://www.corbins.com/images/gatl-7a.jpg

ANy one have an idea as to these bullets identity. See below






















1" Gatling round loaded by Corbin Swaging.

[Wolf]

There's no need to pick on Indy to make him look silly...
...he's doing fine without our help.

[ManDownUnder]

ANy one have an idea as to these bullets identity.

Thats a variant of the the well known "Jesus bullet". This class of bullet is best known for spontaeneously eliciting the response "Jesus!" when seen, received or fired.

[wbks]

One of these days someone is just going to cut to the chase and load a remmy 700 with some kind of artillery shell

[Urano]

1" Gatling round loaded by Corbin Swaging.
:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

the most similar thing i've seen was intended for girls fun....

:D :D :D

[Wolf]

:blink::blink::blink::blink::blink::blink:

the most similar thing i've seen was intended for girls fun....

:D :D :D
Always nice to see women getting interested in firearms.


Wait, am I missing something, here?

[Mr Merde]

I went to the Henderson gun show yesterday.

Saw lots of stuff that i wanted, not a lot I could afford.

One I am seriously looking at. 1893 Marlin in 32-40.

One dealer I got talking to about old rifles was very interested in my 1883 Springfield Treapdoor Cadet Rifle. Even more so when I told him that everything on it matched and it was a genuine Cadet Model (they are frequently faked as there were only 20,000 made out of a total trapdoor production of 500,000).

This dealer made me an offer, sight unseen of $2500 for the rifle. I went online and did a little searching and they sell inj the US, in similar condition for about US$2500.

Considering this rifle cost me NZ$1000 I think I have made a bargin here.

Not selling the rifle. Its mine till I snuff. Just ordered some reloading equipment for it from US.

Also have found some original bayonets, frogs, scabbards, belts, cleaning rods (barracks) ammo slides etc.

The isea is to build up a complete kit witrh everything that went with the rifle as issued. Looking for the combination tool that went with it. I'll find one.


Indy if you are still interested in that M1 Carbine then drop me an e-mail. I had a firearms officer trying to buy it yesterday for one of his friends.

I would really like to get that 1893 marlin.

[jono035]

Yeah, yesterday was a good little wander. Got to chat to a few very interesting guys. I also got the number for a guy to talk to about the antique .303 ammo that I was given so hopefully I can find a more appreciative home for it.

Bought a 105mm M14 shell that will polish up quite nice, kind of wish I'd bought one of those massive naval shells that was almost shoulder height, would have looked pretty impressive in the corner of the lounge... Maybe I should just get Alex to pilfer one...

[Indiana_Jones]

Righto time has come to clear some room and make some money so the Marlin 30-30 is up for grabs guys, PM/phone/e-mail/txt if you're interested

Cheers,

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

Righto time has come to clear some room and make some money so the Marlin 30-30 is up for grabs guys, PM/phone/e-mail/txt if you're interested

Cheers,

-Indy

SOLD

lol that was quick.

[The Pastor]

oh man i really wanted it........

[Mr Merde]

42 min between posts. That was one hell of a quick sale.

Someone really wanted that Marlin.

[The Pastor]

probably some coconut, all he would of asked is "is this a big gun" and handed over the money from his taro crop harvest sale

[Indiana_Jones]

probably some coconut, all he would of asked is "is this a big gun" and handed over the money from his taro crop harvest sale

Ask no questions, tell no lies

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Sold

M1 Carbine with 7 round magazine, dies, moulds, 500+ brass (cleaned, sized and primed). This thread is very incestuous.

I'll contact the dealer and arrange to buy the MARLIN 1893 32-40 RIFLE.

Late 19th century firearms seems to be my interest. I now have 3 originals and 5 repos.

Now I'll need to look for dies, moulds, brass and load data for the 32-40. Black powder of course.

Chris

[jono035]

Yeah, it is a little!

While we're at it, anyone want to buy a target kitted 10/22? Volquartsen internals, green mountain stainless 1" bull barrel threaded for suppressor, Nikon 4-14x50AO scope, bipod and 3 mags.

Absolute tack driver, groups to 2" or thereabouts at 80m (longest I've shot it at for groups)...

[sAsLEX]

Yeah, it is a little!

While we're at it, anyone want to buy a target kitted 10/22? Volquartsen internals, green mountain stainless 1" bull barrel threaded for suppressor, Nikon 4-14x50AO scope, bipod and 3 mags.
Absolute tack driver, groups to 2" or thereabouts at 80m (longest I've shot it at for groups)...

I was hitting those clays consistantly at ~100m with mine so they are great little rifles!

[The Pastor]

still got nothing on the norinco tho. Same accuracy way cheaper.

[Indiana_Jones]

still got nothing on the norinco tho. Same accuracy way cheaper.

It's got semi auto? :D

How do the Norinco Semi's stack up compared to a 10/22 etc?

-Indy

[jono035]

It's got semi auto? :D

How do the Norinco Semi's stack up compared to a 10/22 etc?

-Indy

I severely doubt they're even comparable. Unless that Norinco has a bull barrel on it, there is no way it's getting that kind of accuracy.

The 10/22s last forever pretty much, there are a ton of aftermarket bits and bobs. Mines got an adjustable trigger in it for instance and a little bird told me that there are even full auto ones out there!

[The Pastor]

semi auto, pfffft who cares what action its got, as long as it gets the results.

[jono035]

semi auto, pfffft who cares what action its got, as long as it gets the results.

Anyone who cares about tinkering, reliability or accuracy. And by accuracy I mean if you're cleaning it from the muzzle then you're going to damage the crown sooner or later, dropping the barrel out to clean it with a 10/22 is simplicity itself.

[The Pastor]

I think i've cleaned my norinco once.......

[jono035]

I think i've cleaned my norinco once.......

And you think it will still be as accurate as my target 10/22??

[The Pastor]

and you think it will still be as accurate as my target 10/22??

i'd put a wager on it

[jono035]

i'd put a wager on it

sounds good, $100? Prone, supported, from ~100m, any ammo, both rifles in their current configuration?

[The Pastor]

Cant afford 100 bucks, and im a terrible shooter.

But if we were to do it, it'd be 100m standing

[Mr Merde]

sounds good, $100? Prone, supported, from ~100m, any ammo, both rifles in their current configuration?

The gauntlet has been thrown. Will the challenge be accepted.

Tune in here folks for the ultimate confrontation.

Jono035 vs Renegade Master in the .22 shootout from Hell.

The Blast froim the Past.

[jono035]

Cant afford 100 bucks, and im a terrible shooter.

But if we were to do it, it'd be 100m standing

That's testing the accuracy of the shooter, not the rifle. I have no doubt that there are many people who could outshoot me with a Norinco, but that wasn't the claim :D

Edit: Chris in a cheerleaders uniform = terrifying mental image...

[The Pastor]

Do you have a bipod on ur 10/22?

[jono035]

Do you have a bipod on ur 10/22?

Yep, Harris bipod.

[The Pastor]

Hmm i dont have a bipod, but where excatly can we sort this out? Its not like we can head out to chris's anymore :(

[jono035]

Hmm i dont have a bipod, but where excatly can we sort this out? Its not like we can head out to chris's anymore :(

To be honest, a rolled up towel or a backpack with a jumper in would be just as accurate, just not as convenient.

Goddamnit, Chris. Could do it on my parent's block but thats a good 3 hours drive away... What was the story with the deerstalkers range?

[The Pastor]

Looks like i better buy a slab of ammo and get practicing lol

[Wolf]

Get an independent, unbiased, shooter to test both rifles at set targets from a rest. Simple as. Now you only have to work out where and when and who will be shooting

[jono035]

Looks like i better buy a slab of ammo and get practicing lol

Sounds good, just need a bit of space really, the CSI range is too short.

[Indiana_Jones]

Oh this is gonna be fun!

I won't lay any money down, but I'm keen to see how my BSA International stacks up :)

-Indy

[jono035]

Hell yeah, that'd be interesting...

[Wolf]

Would be good to see how my Brno fares, would need to get a scope on it first - not keen to put bets on it, tho'. Should we ask Chris to do the shooting - ten-round group from each rifle

[Mr Merde]

....Should we ask Chris to do the shooting - ten-round group from each rifle

An old man with bad eyesight? Tui moment !!!!

[Wolf]

You probably shoot better than all of us - besides, it's consistency and impartiaility that are important.

[jono035]

You probably shoot better than all of us - besides, it's consistency and impartiaility that are important.

I'm not really worried about getting an impartial person to shoot each rifle. If you're shooting from a rest using a scope, you're pretty damn close to the best case for the rifle anyway.

[Mr Merde]

I'm not really worried about getting an impartial person to shoot each rifle. If you're shooting from a rest using a scope, you're pretty damn close to the best case for the rifle anyway.


Whos accusing me of being impartial.

Bribery oils the wheels of commerce why cant it do so for competition?

[jono035]

Whos accusing me of being impartial.

Bribery oils the wheels of commerce why cant it do so for competition?

That's what I was really getting at when I basically said I didn't want you anywhere near it!

[Mr Merde]

That's what I was really getting at when I basically said I didn't want you anywhere near it!

Its great to be so well thought of.

My lifes ambition has been achieved.

I'm perceived to be corrupt.

Now to pass on that attribute to the generation that follows.

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'

[jono035]

Its great to be so well thought of.

My lifes ambition has been achieved.

I'm perceived to be corrupt.

Now to pass on that attribute to the generation that follows.

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'

Bah, you just can't win with this guy.

[Mr Merde]

Bah, you just can't win with this guy.

Old and crafty will always beat young and talented

[ManDownUnder]

O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'

And there he sat - as he chortled in his joy...

Can't bling you again right now - need to spread it around etc

[The Pastor]

get that Lewis Carroll crap off my screen!

[Mr Merde]

get that Lewis Carroll crap off my screen!


I thought you would be a big fan of the Rev Charles Dodgson.
He loved young girls (got them before they developed taste),
Played with chemical substances
wrote some wicked prose

on second thoughts that sounds more like Indy

[The Pastor]

replace girls with boys and you've pretty much got indy

[sAsLEX]

Jono035 vs Renegade Master in the .22 shootout from Hell.

.

I want to play as well!

[jono035]

I want to play as well!

Was just wondering if you would be interested. Would be keen to see how our 2 target rifles stack up against each other....

[The Pastor]

good idea alex, after i clean up then you two can have a real competition!

[jono035]

good idea alex, after i clean up then you two can have a real competition!

Then I'm sure you'll be happy sticking the $100 down then...

[The Pastor]

Then I'm sure you'll be happy sticking the $100 down then...

never bet money you don't have!

[jono035]

never bet money you don't have!

It's ok, I'll just put you out on the street corner when I win...

Edit: Money or no, it's actually looking like it could be quite a fun little tournament...

[sAsLEX]

It's ok, I'll just put you out on the street corner when I win...

Edit: Money or no, it's actually looking like it could be quite a fun little tournament...

There will be a rapid fire section as well, say 10 shots in 30 seconds to be fair to the bolt actions?

[jono035]

There will be a rapid fire section as well, say 10 shots in 30 seconds to be fair to the bolt actions?

30s for the bolt actions, 5s for the semis :P

[The Pastor]

my bolt action dosent cycle very well, but 30seconds sounds resonable for 10 shots - its only one mag change!

[Indiana_Jones]

30s for the bolt actions, 5s for the semis :P

What about me on the Martini?

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

What about me on the Martini?

-Indy

10s ?

[mikemike104]

i have a Saiga 12 with a 7 shot mag that fits 9 and us freckin awesome to bumpfire, plus a Winchester Defender 8 shot pumpy with a 20 inch barrel.

Anyone in Hamilton into clays Pm me as im always keen to bust them.

[jono035]

What about me on the Martini?

-Indy

I believe the term is 'getting Custered'...

[Wolf]

I'm not really worried about getting an impartial person to shoot each rifle. If you're shooting from a rest using a scope, you're pretty damn close to the best case for the rifle anyway.
Having the same person doing the shooting would iron out any differences between shooters and make it a contest between the rifles, not the shooters - even with a rest there is variation between different shooters.

Would like to see how the various rifles stack up against one another for accuracy and consistency.

[jono035]

Having the same person doing the shooting would iron out any differences between shooters and make it a contest between the rifles, not the shooters - even with a rest there is variation between different shooters.

Would like to see how the various rifles stack up against one another for accuracy and consistency.

Yeah, but familiarity with the rifle and scope, not to mention setup for eye relief and cheek weld is going to cause more issues than that will solve.

[The Pastor]

We all know im the best shooter out there, so i should test them all

[Indiana_Jones]

Just bench rest the rifles

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

Just bench rest the rifles

-Indy

I thought the correct way to shoot was lying back in a chair so Sir is comfortable?

ps seems we have another Mosin fan http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/69344-Associations-a-picture-game?p=1129701957#post1129701957

[Indiana_Jones]

ps seems we have another Mosin fan http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/69344-Associations-a-picture-game?p=1129701957#post1129701957

Everyone is deep down

-Indy

[Indiana_Jones]

So I think it's time Chris give us a date for this party :D

Saturday the 10th of April? or even the Friday?

-Indy

[jono035]

So I think it's time Chris give us a date for this party :D

Saturday the 10th of April? or even the Friday?

-Indy

Friday, more likely to result in a piss-up. Sounds good, count me in!

[Indiana_Jones]

Friday, more likely to result in a piss-up. Sounds good, count me in!

Works for me, granted I know it might be a hassle to some of the out of towners.

Let's see what the what everyone else thinks

I guess Chris should have a say too....

-Indy

[jono035]

I guess Chris should have a say too....

I dunno, we really just need his house... His attendance is optional! :Pokey:

[ManDownUnder]

Everyone is deep down

-Indy


Are you finally admitting you can stick them up your arse? Very big of you (and public too...!)

[jono035]

Are you finally admitting you can stick them up your arse? Very big of you (and public too...!)

That's why he's always carrying the bayonets around!

[The Pastor]

That's why he's always carrying the bayonets around!

and a large bottle of gun lubricant.....

[ManDownUnder]

and a large bottle of gun lubricant.....

he can't be a fuzzy wuzzy then - they don't like it up 'em y'know...

[Indiana_Jones]

Great Booze Up!

Is on Friday the 23rd!

Confirmed so by she who must not be named.

-Indy

[jono035]

Great Booze Up!

Is on Friday the 23rd!

Confirmed so by she who must not be named.

-Indy

Right, sounds good.

[Mr Merde]

Indy is now the proud owner of one of my little babies. Well I hope he is proud.

Only the second gun I have ever sold. The first being my Remington 788 in 1977.

Given away a few though.

I hope I am turning him away from the Russian side by introducing him to the world of 1940's US long arms.

Along with the rifle he scored brass, moulds, dies etc.

I spoke to the owner of the Marlin 1893 last night and the rifle is mine. I'll make payment to him on Wednesday and he will send the rifle, some brass and some ammo up to me. Good job I took the opportunity at the show to nintroduce myself and present my firearms licence to him so he has already sighted the said document. No police forms to go through.

It now definitely looks as though my collection is going to concentrate on the late 19yth century. 1860-1900.

Found a brother for the Marlin 1893 already. Same model but in 38-55. Dealer in the UK has one for sale with an old repair to the wrist. 350 UK pounds or $750. He is looking into shipping for me.

Yesterday I spoke to an aquaintence who has offerd me an old rifle she has at her house. I promised to come and look. 1870's Snider Carbine in .577. She has made me a very reasonable offer to purchase this rifle and will wait till I can afford it.

So I'll have an
1861 Ballard carbine in .56 rimfire
1870's Snider in .577
1884 Springfield Cadet in 45-70
1893 Marlin in 32-40
1893 Marlin in 38-55
1874 rebuilt Remington Rolling Block in 45-70
All original.

Replica 1892 carbine in .44
replica 1887 12 gauge shotgun
2x replica 1873 Colt revolvers in .44
2x replica 1858 Remington revolvers in .44

Do you think I may have a liking for this very transitional age of firearms?

Chrisb

[Mr Merde]

Great Booze Up!

Is on Friday the 23rd!

Confirmed so by she who must not be named.

-Indy

You mean

"THE BOSS" !!!!

She is quite proud that my prescence wasnt required but hers was mandatory.

Well that was until I told her that you were into NECROPHILLIA, which is dead boring.

The shoulder still hurts from the punch. She may be small but she sure throws a mean punch.

[Wolf]

She's wiry and has no padding on her fingers - not the sort of combination to be hit with, O scatological one.

23rd of April... I have four rugrats that night so I send my apologies now.

[jono035]

She is quite proud that my prescence wasnt required but hers was mandatory.

She's a hell of a lot easier on the eyes...

[Mr Merde]

Well I've done it.

I've once again found "rocking horse shit"

Looking for brass for the 32-40

From everything I read in US it seemed to be as rare as the above.

Today I purchased 150 cases, stamped 32-40.

Expensive at $2 each but better than reshaping 30-30 and having to load out the bullet as 30-30 brass reformed is shorter than genuine 32-40.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Just got off the phone to the gentleman who is selling me the Marlin 1893.

Got his bank details and address.

He is going to post it up to me on Monday. I'm away over the weekend so I asked him to delay postage.

Checked on some details.

1893 made in 1905. 26" barrel, Montana Rocky mountain front sight with a tang rear sight. Barrel is stamped "For Black Powder".

Bore is mint. Finish is about 80% blued. Wood is good but has bumps and scratches as befitting its age.

Been checking out this model and from what I have read if you find an old Marlin with a good bore then you have found a shooter.

Just found mould for the 165 gn bullet. here in NZ at $240 + $100 for handles.

I think I'll see what I can get from the US. Dies run at $190 here but in the US they are US$50.

Going to be a while before I get to actually shoot this rifle. May look around for some factory cartridges. Winchester make them. I'll call Eric at serious and see if he has any at the shop.

I am very excited over this rifle. Cant wait to shoot it with BP.

Below is a picture of the Marlin 1893. The one I am purchasing has a better finish and has a round barrewl not an octagonal. Other than that everything else matches.


203176





Chris

[Swoop]

Does anyone else have extreme possum problems at the moment?
They seem to be prolific around the house and are (presumably) after a source of water. Oddly there are zero rabbits around (bugger!) which makes me wonder if the population has self-reduced to support existance on the parched land.
It was an extremely productive series of nights that has seen a few of Australia's most loathed export succum to an injection of high-speed lead.

Rain will arrive with a very welcome sigh from the farming community!

[Flip]

Or as we like to say "Issuing lead exit visa's to Australian over stayers"

Been getting a few rabbits lately down here, the numbers are slowly coming up. Also been seeing a few possums in the area as they come off the hill and get closer to the sea over winter.

[Mr Merde]

My new baby has arrived.

weighed in at 32-40 measuring 26" muzzle to receiver.

all extremities are sound and a clean, shiney bore.

originally blued but faded to a nice plum brown patina

woodwork sound but showing dents snd scratches befitting its age.

Photos to follow once I have the camera out and Sharron stops laughing at my enthusiasm.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Got a box of tissues to go with the rifle?

-Indy

[Swoop]

American and NATO trainers are frustrated at their inability to train Afghans to shoot accurately. The Afghan soldiers and police, despite the constant example of superior marksmanship on the part of foreign troops, persist in pointing their weapons, instead of aiming them. Meanwhile, Afghan traditionalists are trying to change the way the Taliban fight. This can be seen by the increase in the use of sniping by the Taliban. In the two years, NATO units in southern Afghanistan estimate there has been a sharp (over 30 percent) percent increase in sniping incidents. This is not seen as a major danger. NATO troops wear protective bests and helmets that can stop bullets fired at long range, making it very frustrating for the Taliban shooters trying to hit a distant target in a vulnerable spot. And there was not a lot of sniping by the Taliban to begin with.
This shift in tactics is largely a reaction to the better training, and weapons, of U.S. and NATO infantry. Afghans, and especially the Taliban, consider themselves great warriors. But they are getting tired of being defeated every time they get into a firefight with the foreign troops. Worse yet, if the Taliban stay put during a fight, the damned foreigners bring in a warplane that drops a smart bomb or two, bringing an inglorious (for the Taliban) end to the action.

Then some of the young guys remembered grandpa decrying the decline in marksmanship years ago. Back before the Russians showed up, in the 1980s, the best an Afghan could hope to have was a World War II, or World War I, era bolt action rifle. These weapons were eclipsed in the 1980s by full automatic AK-47s and the RPG rocket launcher. The young guys took to the AK, and the thrill of emptying a 30 round magazine on full automatic. Not bad for a brief firefight, and suddenly hardly anyone, except a few old timers, wanted to use the old bolt action rifle, or learn how to hit anything with single shots.

What was not noticed much outside of Afghanistan, was that this shift in weaponry brought to an end a long Afghan tradition of precision, long range shooting. Before the 1980s, this skill was treasured for both hunting and warfare. When doing neither, Afghan men played games centered on marksmanship. One, for example, involved a group of men chipping in and buying a goat. The animal was then tethered to a rock, often on a hill, and then the half dozen or so men moved several hundred meters away and drew lots to see who would fire in what order. The first man to drop the goat, won it. Since Afghanistan was the poorest nation in Asia, ammo was expensive, and older men taught the young boys all the proper moves needed to get that first shot off accurately.

During the 1980s, Saudi Arabia spent billions of dollars to arm Afghans with all the AK-47s and ammo they could use, and they used lots of it. But rarely for target practice. Compared to bolt-action rifles like the British Lee-Enfield, the AK-47 was less accurate when one shot at a time was fired. The old timers, or a few young traditionalists, kept their Lee-Enfields, and made themselves useful picking off Russian soldiers at long distances, on those rare occasions where that was needed. A few Afghans noted that the AK-47, fired one shot at a time, was pretty accurate out to about 300 meters. But the Russians had more firepower, and it was rarely prudent to stay too close to them for too long. So "spray and pray" (going full automatic all the time) became the new Afghan warrior tradition.

The Lee-Enfield is one of the oldest, and still widely used, rifles on the planet. Over 17 million were manufactured between 1895 and the 1980s. While there are more AK-47s out there (over 20 million in private hands), these are looked down on by those who use their rifles for hunting, or killing with a minimum expenditure of ammunition. The 8.8 pound Lee-Enfield is a bolt-action rifle (with a ten round magazine) noted for its accuracy and sturdiness. The inaccurate AK-47 has a hard time matching bolt action accuracy more than a hundred meters out. Meanwhile, the Lee-Enfield can drop an animal, or a man, at over 400 meters, on the first shot.

There are millions of Lee-Enfields still in use throughout India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and even Iraq and other Persian Gulf nations. These are largely World War II leftovers. In the early half of the 20th century, the British gave out millions of these weapons to allies, or those being courted. Noting the accuracy of the Lee-Enfield (.303 caliber, or 7.7mm), the locals came to prize the rifle for hunting, and self-defense. There are still many gunsmiths throughout the region (and at least one factory in India) that will refurbish century old Lee-Enfields to "like new" condition. Ammunition is still manufactured, with the high quality stuff going for a dollar a round, and lesser quality for 25 cents a round. These rifles sell in the west for $500-1,000. The Lee-Enfield will carry on well into the 21st century.

One place where the Lee-Enfield found lots of fans was Afghanistan. There, the Afghans had been introduced to rifles in the 19th century, and they treasured these weapons. This was particularly true after the introduction of smokeless powder rifles in the late 19th century. Many Afghans were still using black powder rifles well into the 20th century. But once Lee-Enfields began show up in large numbers after World War I (1914-18), no one wanted the larger, heavier and less accurate black powder rifles (which always gave off your position, with all that smoke, after you fired a round.) Now, wealthy drug lords are buying expensive hunting and sniper rifles for their militias, but so far, the Taliban Snipers appear to be using grandpa's old Lee-Enfield.

NATO trainers get nowhere by mentioning the old Afghan warrior tradition of sharpshooting. The lack of discipline, and literacy, among so many Afghan recruits leaves less time for weapons training anyway. Meanwhile, the allure of "spray and pray" is too strong for a generation that has access to automatic weapons, and all the ammo they can carry.

[Indiana_Jones]

Where was this from?

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

After my initial enthusiastic post I have settled down and given the rifle (B grade 1893, 32-40) a thorough going over with a cloth lightly impregnated with a little balistol.

Boy has it come up a treat.

Took a lot of dirt of the surface and the woodwork. The wood work now gleams with a dark red\brown colour to it. The metal work has kept the patina it has earned over the years. There is very light pitting on the magazine and there are a few scratches into the metal work but after 104 years it has earned all its battle scars.

The barrel looked immaculate when I got it but I sat down with the cleaning kit and balistol again. With a .30 calibre bronze brush I gave it a good scrub along with liberal ammounts of the aforementioned Balistol. About every 10 scrubs with the brush I passed a cleaning paTch through the barrel. I kept at this until the patches came out with only a little bit of black residue on them. Its not perfect yet but wow does the bareel shine. Absolutely no pitting, no worn rifling, just this lovely shine and rifling that looks crisp fromthe muzzle to the breech.

Next job was the rear sight. Identified in my earlier post as a Lyman #1 tang sight.

I removed this from the rifle very carefully and soaked it in balistol for a whole day. The knurl wouldnt raise the post at all before this. After soaking I wraped the knurl with some soft cloth and with a pair of pliers i gently started moving it. Low and behold the post started to rise. It was rusted inside the barrel of the sight. I took the post right out and then soaked the whole lot in oil for a few hours. I then set down with a lot of cotton buds and a .17 bronze brush and clkeaned out the barrel of the sight. Once satified I then took some very fine wire wool and cleaned off the post.

Result being I now have a working tang sight. I have noticed that the post has markings down its length and these are very hard to make out with my old eyes. Please forgive me but I think I am going to use some sort of white marker to make them stand out a little better, any suggestions?

I have been unable to discern any markings on the sight that I can read yet (need to get the magnifying glass out). I did notice that under the tang sight on the upper tang of the rifle are the words, Model 1893. The rear tang bolt seems to be a replacement but it does fit ok.

So now I have a nice looking, clean old rifle with working sights and an immaculate bore. Next job is to disassemble the rifle for a good clean and lubrication on the inside. Not sure how to go about this so I will do some more searching on the internet for instructions and a parts diagram.

As well as being a show piece in my collection this rifle is going to be used for CAS and for hunting. I have cornered the New Zealand market on 32-40 Winchester new brass for this rifle, I purchased the only 150 cases I could find for approx $2.05 each. I've ordered SAECO moulds and handles so that I can cast some projectiles and also ordered a set of RCBS cOWBOY dIES IN 32-40. Hopefully they should arrive within the next month. I went down to the gunshop and purchased 2 kilos of Fffg black powder and 1000 large rifle primers.

Saslex, this rifle is mechanically as good as the 1892 you got from your granddad. I hope i shoots as well.

The first lot of brass arrived yesterday. At first glance it looks very weird as it has a head the same as a 30-30 (you can make 32-40 out of 30-30 brass) and it has a long taper to the mouth.

AS you can tell I am finding it hard to wait to fire this rifle.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Nice update :)

Sent an e-mail to your work addy

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

Nice update :)

Sent an e-mail to your work addy

-Indy

Off sick today

[Indiana_Jones]

Off sick today

oh 'sure'

Just regarding the site, are the numbers engraved? just use some chalk to fill them in to see.

-Indy

[Mr Merde]

oh 'sure'

Just regarding the site, are the numbers engraved? just use some chalk to fill them in to see.

-Indy

Nasty chest infection. Been awake all night,

yes markings are engraved Chalk idea a good one. was thinking of something semi permament.

[Indiana_Jones]

Some sort of paint? let it run in the numbers and then wipe off the excess?

Thinking out loud here lol

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

Nasty chest infection. Been awake all night,

yes markings are engraved Chalk idea a good one. was thinking of something semi permament.

Oil based paint - wait till it's tacky then wipe off the excess with a turps rag? The old Engineers marking out blue is good for that kind of stuff too if you want a more subtle and non "filling" solution. IIt should just scrub out with a bit of turps and a toothbruch but it's been a long time since I used it and given how precious your baby is... I'd be double checking it first

Bugger about the chest infection - there's something going around at the mo... that (with the lingering cough from hell - I've had it for... 45 days?) and there's also a 12 hour vomiting bug that just comes from nowhere - you lose your lunch violently 3 or 4 times ovr the space of 3 hours... feel like crap - sleep for 12 hours and wake up feeling all spaced out... next day you'd never know it happened!

[Mr Merde]

I was thinking of engineers blue myself. Would like it to really stand out so a vibrant colour would be best.

For a moment I actually thought about re blueing the staff and filling in the engraving marks with white but as the sight itself is relatively rare I dumped that idea.

Took me ages to identify the sight. It looked like a Lyman but all the tang sights I got from Google were of the #1a and the #2. Neither of which fitted. finally found an old Lyman catalogue form 1906 online and identified it as a #1. These were first made in 1878. From there I went searching for information on a #1. Not a lot came back. Eventualy I found an auction house in the US with one for sale. $150US for it.

Apparently they were better than the later sights although it doesnt have adjustment for windage as the #1a and the #2 do.

Now I have freed it up I can raise the post about 2". The calibre is supposed to be a good deer round out to about 200 yards and is one of the favourite calibres for the sport of shutzen (spelling wrong). Apparently a very accurate round.

Since I'm off ill I will spend the day just going over the rifle and give it a really good clean. Balistol is a wonderous liquid.

The bore is great but I am still getting a little bit of colour on the patches so I will continue until they come out clean.

I would like to remove the bolt from the receiver but am just a little nervous as I have neve done this to a Marlin. Similar procedure to your modern Marlin Scott.

Chris

[Swoop]

There is such a thing for making the engravings show up as white. A mate had a marking pen of some sort, that he used on his rifles. I seem to think it was more like a felt-tipped pen.
Perhaps Reloader's Supplies or a gunsmith may shed some light on the matter?

[Mr Merde]

Still getting leading. Bronze brush down the barrel soaked in Balistol. 10-15 passes with this. Brush swapped for a patch. Comming out dirty as hell. Looks like I need to go and get some chemical lead remover. Or possibly a Lewis lead remover.

Barrel still looks like a mirror.

Once I hace it clean I'll treat it with something like Mil 7 metal conditioner. Dont want to use a petrocarbon as I will be using black powder for this and they dont like each other.

I'll get a good stock wax to treat the woodwork. Thought about getting some walnut blanks and carving a new stock and forearm for it but somehow that feels sacriligous.

Been playing around with the rifle today. Only seen it in dusk or under artificial light. The rifle pulls to my shoulder as though it were made for me. The tang sight is great and naturally centres the front sight. I can hold the rifle steady for a reasonable time. Very easy to work the action while shouldering the rifle. Sight picture a doddle to pick up. I think I'm going to enjoy learning how this rifle shoots

WHat I need to do is to zero the rifle for about 150 yards. From the balistics I have found it looks like that is the optimum. Bullet drop at 300 is about 11". I can live with that. Long range lever rifle calibre competition in CAS is usually shot at either 100 or 200 metres..

Chris

[jono035]

Great. Just heard from Central Shooters and they're banning 44 magnum and 357 magnum chambered pistols from being used there, effective immediately. Given that I haven't been going there unless I've got ammo made up for the .44, this is a pretty major disappointment.

Chris: Any updates on the progress of the other range?

[The Pastor]

Great. Just heard from Central Shooters and they're banning 44 magnum and 357 magnum chambered pistols from being used there, effective immediately. Given that I haven't been going there unless I've got ammo made up for the .44, this is a pretty major disappointment.

Chris: Any updates on the progress of the other range?

why ?

[Mr Merde]

We are now in talks with the local Iwi as there are old kumera pits on the property so we have to get their permission to use the land.

Private property and we have to pay someone else to give us permission to use such.

No wonder this country is so fucked up

[jono035]

why ?

Apparently there is a new manager at Youthtown (the building that CSI inhabits) who has a real bee in his bonnet about the noise. One of the guys who shoots a .44 magnum desert eagle there was telling me at the arms fair that he had the guy come charging down and having a go at him about it. I suspect that with its shorter barrel, cylinder gap and porting that my revolver will probably be a fair bit louder than that, too.

Edit: Sent an e-mail to the secretary asking if there was any possibility of having a designated time frame for those calibers and what the timeframe was on the planned extra soundproofing that is going in and got pretty solidly blown off. My guess is that the more powerful calibers probably don't have a whole lot of support from the committee. He mentioned that he was glad that they didn't have to ban all centerfire calibers... I think we got thrown to the wolves as a diversion.

[Mr Merde]

.....I think we got thrown to the wolves as a diversion.

Divide and conquor, clasic tactics. The smaller centrefire shooters will not argue as they arent affected, just you big bore shooters. You are all banned. Give it a while and everything will settle down and then there will be talk of banning .38 spl as it is too loud. Then .32 and that very noisy 9mm.

Eventually all centrefire will be gone and only .22 allowed and then only Olympic style shooters.

Seen it before, always happens like this.

Always results in the demise of shooting at the place where it all started.

Chris

[jono035]

Divide and conquor, clasic tactics. The smaller centrefire shooters will not argue as they arent affected, just you big bore shooters. You are all banned. Give it a while and everything will settle down and then there will be talk of banning .38 spl as it is too loud. Then .32 and that very noisy 9mm.

Eventually all centrefire will be gone and only .22 allowed and then only Olympic style shooters.

Seen it before, always happens like this.

Always results in the demise of shooting at the place where it all started.

Chris

Yeah. For the moment, though, it leaves me pretty much screwed unless I want to dick around with with APC range which just seems like a joke to someone who isn't all that interested in IPSC.

[The Pastor]

when the rules dont work, break em

[jono035]

when the rules dont work, break em

This guy who is complaining has actually been coming down and bashing on the door. If he complains with a timestamp then they'll just check the cameras or cardax and see it was me. If they then terminate my club membership I'll have to either start shooting at another club (APC is the only other option and they use a really fucked up timetable and are ages away) or lose my B endorsement...

That isn't really an option right now.

[Mr Merde]

How about shooting .44 spl

I'll give you a couple of hundred cases.

If its the magnums that are banned then .44spl should be ok. you could then prove it with the headstamp.

Chris

[jono035]

How about shooting .44 spl

I'll give you a couple of hundred cases.

If its the magnums that are banned then .44spl should be ok. you could then prove it with the headstamp.

Chris

Lol, you've been trying to get me hooked on .44spl for a while now :) This may just do it...

[Mr Merde]

Lol, you've been trying to get me hooked on .44spl for a while now :) This may just do it...

The late great Elmer Keith swore by the .44 spl. In fact it was his experiments with these that led to the .44 Mag. You can load them up to .44 mag levels as he did. The only reason the .44 mag is 1/10" longer than the .44spl is to stop them being loaded into the older .44 spl guns that may not handle the pressure.

It is also a real case of semantics. The dickhead can come down cursing you for shooting magnum and you can show by the case that you are shooting specials.

Also if you read the history of target shooting you will find that the .44 spl was developed from the .44 Russian. The latter being only 1/10 in less than the special and the Russian comming from the .44 American, shorter again.

The Russian and the Special were considered the finest target rounds developed. The Russian was a black powder round and the Special came out in 1906 for the modern propellant. The .38 spl only came into prominence because of the pussies who had trouble handling any kind of recoil.

I have about 800 .44 Special cases here. Already cleaned, shaped and primed. You are very welcome to some.

As to getting you hooked. No I just think that the .44 special has been overlooked in our modern shooting. Our ancestors knew a lot and they swore by this round. Why shouldnt we.

If you look at some of the manufacturers you will see that they have never discontinued the gunds for this round or production of the ammo or brass. There must be a reason.

.44 Spl pistols always command a premium price if you are lucky enough to find one for sale.

Chris

[Indiana_Jones]

Still on for Friday?

-Indy

[jono035]

Still on for Friday?

-Indy

I'm still keen.

[Mr Merde]

Still on for Friday?

-Indy

Yes,

Her indoors who must not benamed but always should be obeyed, wishes to know who is comming. This is so we can do some planning.

So can you sound off if you are going to be here Friday night.

Chris.

PS Still off ill.

[jono035]

I'll be there.

Sorry to hear you're still sick, Chris. I've had a mild touch of the plague for the past week, too. Unpleasant.

[The Pastor]

i'll be there

[Mr Merde]

I'll be there.

Sorry to hear you're still sick, Chris. I've had a mild touch of the plague for the past week, too. Unpleasant.

Always feel guilty calling in to work because I'm sick

[jono035]

Always feel guilty calling in to work because I'm sick

My last boss was really good about it, if I called in sick he'd basically tell me to piss off til I was better because he didn't want to catch it.

My dad is out this week with the flu because of some woman that he works with bringing it in with her.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'm in.

Sorry to hear you're still under the weather mate

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

Always feel guilty calling in to work because I'm sick

It's a bastard having a work ethic isn't it?

[Mr Merde]

It's a bastard having a work ethic isn't it?

Very much so.

[Indiana_Jones]

Always feel guilty calling in to work because I'm sick

Me too, they really miss me when I'm away

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

Me too, they really miss me when I'm away

-Indy

So let me get this right... at your work... th... they ... shoot at you ?

WOW... tough boss

[jono035]

So let me get this right... at your work... th... they ... shoot at you ?

WOW... tough boss

To be fair, if I had to work with him I'd probably want to shoot him, too!

[Indiana_Jones]

To be fair, if I had to work with him I'd probably want to shoot him, too!

Only if you use a Mosin....

-Indy

[jono035]

Only if you use a Mosin....

-Indy

Proving, yet again, that the safest place to be around a Mosin is directly in front of it? :D

[The Pastor]

Proving, yet again, that the safest place to be around a Mosin is directly in front of it? :D

only if andrew is the shooter!

[Indiana_Jones]

Proving, yet again, that the safest place to be around a Mosin is directly in front of it? :D

Depends if I have the 53ft bayonet on or not....

-Indy

[jono035]

Depends if I have the 53ft bayonet on or not....

-Indy

That point I will happily concede and amend my statement thus:

The safest place around a Mosin is out of bayonet range and directly in front of it.

RM: Good point, I'd forgotten about that factor...

[Indiana_Jones]

That point I will happily concede and amend my statement thus:

The safest place around a Mosin is out of bayonet range and directly in front of it.



Also make sure you're out of throwing distance!

-Indy

[ManDownUnder]

Also make sure you're out of throwing distance!

-Indy

I thought the whole point of owning a gun was you didn't have to throw the bullets...

[Mr Merde]

I thought the whole point of owning a gun was you didn't have to throw the bullets...

This is\was Communist Russian technology we are talking about here.

The sort of technology that made the troops walk in front of the tanks in case there were mines.

People are expendable. If they have to throw the bullets they so be it.

[Swoop]

This is\was Communist Russian technology we are talking about here.

The sort of technology that made the troops walk in front of the tanks in case there were mines.
Also the first line of an assault were equipped with rifles. The troops behind them had to pick up a rifle from a fallen comrade and continue the advance.
Communism, huh.

[ManDownUnder]

Also the first line of an assault were equipped with rifles. The troops behind them had to pick up a rifle from a fallen comrade and continue the advance.
Communism, huh.

I just put this in front of the Marketing department - they reckon they could put a caring/sharing and recycling spin on it

[Swoop]

I just put this in front of the Marketing department - they reckon they could put a caring/sharing and recycling spin on it
I'd hate to see what they would twist Auschwitz into...

[Mr Merde]

I'd hate to see what they would twist Auschwitz into...

Possibly

"An ecologically sound utilisation of a natural recuuring resource with a greeen disposal method"


I'm going to be red repped for this one

[jono035]

I thought the whole point of owning a gun was you didn't have to throw the bullets...

I figured he was just going to throw the entire Mosin at me... With the bayonet out they do look slightly like a javelin...

[Swoop]

One area of weapons development that has seen a lot of new, but generally unnoticed, developments in the past decade is the PDW (Personal Defense Weapon, or pistol replacement). One recent example is the Rock River Arms PPS (Performance Piston System) Pistol. This is a 5.56mm weapon that uses a new internal design. It has a short gas piston, with the recoil spring and guide rod over the 21cm (8 inch) barrel. The entire weapon (which does not have a stock) is 44.5cm (17.5 inches) long and weighs 2.2 kg (5 pounds). There are single shot and full automatic versions, each costing $1,335.
If you want a smaller PDW, you often have to go with smaller ammunition. Thus a recent Chinese PDW design uses a 4.6x30mm round. The new weapon is a variant of the Type 79 PFW (which uses the old Russian 7.62x25mm round). The new weapon weighs 1.6 kg (3.6 pounds) and has a 30 round, dual stack, magazine. Rate of fire is single, 400 or 600 rounds per minute. It has a Picatinny rail on top for scopes and sights. With the telescopic stock closed, the weapon is 34cm (13.4 inches) long, and 54cm (21.2 inches) with the stock extended. The weapon is gas operated with a closed bolt.

The bullets are about half the weight of 5.56mm ones, and the 4.6mm round is lethal at short ranges, especially in bursts. The bullet travels at high speed (over 700 meters a second). The 4.6mm round will not penetrate walls or ceilings as well as 9mm or 5.56mm bullets, meaning less chance of unintended casualties.

The Personal Defense Weapon never really succeeded, on a large scale, as a pistol replacement. The military, especially in the United States, simply developed an M-16 with a shorter barrel and stock (the M-4). Many troops who previously only had a pistol, now had an M-4. These were cheaper than PDWs, and not much larger.

But security professionals, especially bodyguards, are a growing market for the easily concealed PDWs. Some police departments use them.

[Mr Merde]

ANy links to these PDW's?

[Swoop]

ANy links to these PDW's?

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=415

http://www.hk94.com/hk/topic/27782-rock-river-arms-announces-new-piston-rifle-and-pps-pistol/

Can't get a piccie of the chinese one, but it is based on this:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg72-e.htm

[ManDownUnder]

Indy's very quiet today... not like last night at all...

Let's see there was 12 year olds, 65 year olds, nothing is too old... nothing is too young. Ummmm... gawd - sheep, cows, his ability to guzzle streong drink in a single gulp - his ability to nearly throw up in the car on the way home.

I know I've missed a lot out - I used a good portion of the shit discussion to fertilise a couple of hundred hectares... hope that was ok :)

Bloody good night and shitload of fun. Thanks guys - and special thanks to Sharron... Chris - you've got a keeper there mate. A bloody good lady.

Chris, Sharron... happy new home!

[jono035]

Indy's very quiet today... not like last night at all...

Let's see there was 12 year olds, 65 year olds, nothing is too old... nothing is too young. Ummmm... gawd - sheep, cows, his ability to guzzle streong drink in a single gulp - his ability to nearly throw up in the car on the way home.

I know I've missed a lot out - I used a good portion of the shit discussion to fertilise a couple of hundred hectares... hope that was ok :)

Bloody good night and shitload of fun. Thanks guys - and special thanks to Sharron... Chris - you've got a keeper there mate. A bloody good lady.

Chris, Sharron... happy new home!

Yeah, was a good night, thanks for having us! Was good to be able to take a look at your new toy and any day when I come home with more brass than I left with is a good day.

I take it Indy managed to keep himself under control for the rest of the way home?

[Indiana_Jones]

I take it Indy managed to keep himself under control for the rest of the way home?

Oh no, thens when the fun really began......

Thanks for having us guys and thanks again MDU :niceone:

-Indy