The firearm thread

[Laava]

Fixed for Accuracy.

No it is you who is twisting the words around. Maybe you should go back and read what you wrote. Then, when I was sarcastic about your complete change of my context, you told me to wipe the bullshit from my lips, cos i was reading crap. When I pointed out that it was your bullshit you got into your usual didactic and self righteous spiel. Dont bother replying, welcome to my ignore list boron.

[Woodman]

The only one twisting any words, is you.

If I was to say the Sky is Blue, you'd manage to re-interpret that as to mean something else. And for that, I can't help you.

Oooohh fuck, the irony, the irony...:facepalm:

[scumdog]

You lot should be posting your shit on Friday Night rants thread....:brick:

[Laava]

Oooohh fuck, the irony, the irony...:facepalm:
Dont fucken set him off again FFS!

[Laava]

Seems legit...
https://www.ducatiforum.co.uk/proxy.php?image=https%3A%2F%2Fscontent.fltn2-1.fna.fbcdn.net%2Fv%2Ft1.0-9%2F72344447_2390779777642532_3573042989292847104_ n.jpg%3F_nc_cat%3D109%26_nc_eui2%3DAeE3kb2CHJq64yn tUnqrTKD6QgmrgPO-ARgSQXWXdepFDwkOykg_3eQCz02XTrCifrHTSE3YBhwr9972aC yK8ckh_3BOhvF5Xw7_JimaxfE4pA%26_nc_oc%3DAQmwKQjfL7 1He2GdmVbH8ObSHu_YtrxARdB_vZhwmGcfIVZq1xcjAXdWMCVC-Wjm6IA%26_nc_ht%3Dscontent.fltn2-1.fna%26oh%3Db1866319c87aa4784fde0616362d685e%26oe %3D5E3C7BA3&hash=7d2dc9ee45e998f83e8b23a4fb6d8fb7

[austingtir]

Seems legit...



This post goes against your own narratives but I always said you cant meme for shit.

Leftists are the ones pushing for gun grab type legislation yet 99.9% of them wouldnt know the difference between a daisy BB gun a .22 calibre or an ak47.....

[husaberg]

This post goes against your own narratives but I always said you cant meme for shit.

Leftists are the ones pushing for gun grab type legislation yet 99.9% of them wouldnt know the difference between a daisy BB gun a .22 calibre or an ak47.....

yet 80% of NZ agree with the firearms legislation changes or that they didnt go far enough........

[imac]

yet 80% of NZ agree with the firearms legislation changes or that they didnt go far enough........

Well I'd wager that they didn't have a clue what they were before and don't have a clue what they are now.

[austingtir]

Well I'd wager that they didn't have a clue what they were before and don't have a clue what they are now.

First you have to believe in polls.

The levels of mentally retarded gymnastics going on to believe that shit.. It's hilarious actually.

[scumdog]

yet 80% of NZ agree with the firearms legislation changes or that they didnt go far enough........

How long ago was that/
Whose poll


AND did they know anything about guns? (For many they would know as much about guns as I know about lacrosse)

[ellipsis]

...I've got more than 11 really pointy sticks, all 7 feet long in a long plastic container...should I split them up into two long plastic containers, just to be on the safe side...;)

[husaberg]

How long ago was that/
Whose poll


AND did they know anything about guns? (For many they would know as much about guns as I know about lacrosse)
Colmar bruntorn a poll of voters april 16th 10,000 Voters
Here is a hint it happened the law changes will likely never be reversed. Due to the cost being incurred.
the more you moan and go on about it and say how much it costs the less likely it ever will reverse.
A vote is a vote whether you like it or not 80% of kiwis agreed with it or considered it didnt go far enough.
What you think doesnt add up to buggar all, democracy is about numbers. The numbers dont support you.
most people weigh up the 50 deaths against a few wanting to play bang bang as these weapons had little practical use.
All the MP other than 1 voted for the law changes, its over tough shit. Get over it. or go to the US.

[Laava]

...I've got more than 11 really pointy sticks, all 7 feet long in a long plastic container...should I split them up into two long plastic containers, just to be on the safe side...;)
We aint jus' shootin' pool here partner!

[Beekeeper]

Ive had a few guns in the past, the only reason to have a semi is pig or deer culling, even then its debatable. As for assault style weapons, they belong in the military not in public circulation for the same reason we dont let the public drive around with browning 50's on the car roofs. Anyway the point is easy access to these weapons which are designed to slaughter humans at high speed is a bad idea with all the nutters around.

[TheDemonLord]

Ive had a few guns in the past, the only reason to have a semi is pig or deer culling, even then its debatable. As for assault style weapons, they belong in the military not in public circulation for the same reason we dont let the public drive around with browning 50's on the car roofs. Anyway the point is easy access to these weapons which are designed to slaughter humans at high speed is a bad idea with all the nutters around.

Sport Shooting?

And what exactly is the definition of an 'assault style weapon' - it has no Technical definition, it's a made-up term by Lawyers and Politicians to ban things they don't like.

In regards to the last part - so you would say that using a Forum user as a character reference perhaps isn't prudent - as according to you 'with all the nutters around' - Perhaps it's not the tool, but the user that needed to be looked at.

[Beekeeper]

Why bother regulating anything? Everybody is sane, handgrenades and machine guns should be freely available at the local shops

[austingtir]

Why bother regulating anything? Everybody is sane, handgrenades and machine guns should be freely available at the local shops


When Tarrant's whole aim was to get guns banned and basically start race wars all over the show its just kinda silly when comrade Jacinda comes along and basically goes down his list and ticks every box...:weird:

Almost too convenient infact.

[jasonu]

Almost too convenient infact.

it's about the best thing that has happened to your current government.

[austingtir]

it's about the best thing that has happened to your current government.


Yeah because most ordinary NZer's who arent antifa, hard left socialists/still under the tooth monsters spell are clearly going to vote this bunch of clowns out next year.


I see Winston has stopped funding of the clinton foundation so we might have to keep him around afterall. Just to piss the greens and national off of course.

[scumdog]

Sport Shooting?

And what exactly is the definition of an 'assault style weapon' - it has no Technical definition, it's a made-up term by Lawyers and Politicians to ban things they don't like.

In regards to the last part - so you would say that using a Forum user as a character reference perhaps isn't prudent - as according to you 'with all the nutters around' - Perhaps it's not the tool, but the user that needed to be looked at.


'must spread rep':niceone:

[husaberg]

'must spread rep':niceone:

Maybe you should write 51 letters to the families of the victims spelling out how a few peoples right to play bang bang outwesight the rights of those killed in the recent attack then.
i would wager there are more people killed in NZ every year with a firearm, then there were ever registered Sport shooters useing ar15's and similar for any form of organised sport.
if you disagree, i am sure you will be easily able to prove just how popular this sport was in NZ.

[scumdog]

Maybe you should write 51 letters to the families of the victims spelling out how a few peoples right to play bang bang outwesight the rights of those killed in the recent attack then.
i would wager there are more people killed in NZ every year with a firearm, then there were ever registered Sport shooters useing ar15's and similar for any form of organised sport.
if you disagree, i am sure you will be easily able to prove just how popular this sport was in NZ.


Are you drunk or typing in a punctuation-free wind-tunnel???:scratch:

And ME write to the families?

I owe them nothing, not my monkey, not my circus, you should approach Tarrant with a similar suggestion, I'm sure it would be well received..

Throwing a guilt trip at me won't work, I've done nothing wrong, nothing illegal.
:innocent:

[husaberg]

Are you drunk or typing in a punctuation-free wind-tunnel???:scratch:

And ME write to the families?

I owe them nothing, not my monkey, not my circus, you should approach the chch fuckwit with a similar suggestion, I'm sure it would be well received..

Throwing a guilt trip at me won't work, I've done nothing wrong, nothing illegal.
:innocent:

Who is trying to guilt trip who here
All i are hearing out of the firearm side.....
Is poor me.....
I miss this i miss that....
Its not the guns fault.......
I dont get to do this.........
I dont get to do that.........
Gun control doesnt work........
its all the goverments fault........
I want more compensation than fair market value..........
Its gong to cost to much to do..........
What about a .000001 % of sport shooters..........
What about the .000000001% that have a legitimate use of assault riffles in NZ.......
The funniest is its not what the majority of people want when its very clearly what the majority of the people in NZ want.
the CHCh shooter is the poster boy of what happened under the old rules, he was a legal gun owners right up until he slipped in the os mag and pulled the triger killin 5o peope in a few mnutes, just as was the Aromonana shooter before him.
Grow up, move on, your rights to play bang bang, do not override the right of others not to be killed by a homicidal manic with a rifle, no one needed, that was only IMPORTED, modified to get around a poorly drafted law that the gun lobby lobbied with great zeaL TO AVOID CLOSING.

Nothing has changed with the gun sides 7 months on moaning its all poor, me poor me.


Here we are weeks later still we have people moaning like little bitch's about losing access to owning a gun they never even needed in the first place.
Its well past the time you should have figured out why its a stand NZ as a whole is taking.
No different than our stand condemning the French terrorists who bombed the Rainbow Warrior or the Nuclear free zone we made in and around New Zealand.

The change in NZ law is about lives, not money or some pathetic weapon you want to have for pose value or fun.
NZ doesn't have a right to bear arms in its constitution. Nor do you need a semi auto Military style assault rifle, you mealy want one.
People in NZ can still continue own a firearm as a privilege, to hunt with, as a hobby or sport or collecting.
But simply as a result of 50 innocent people getting killed recently in the mater of minutes by a total loser, you longer have that privilege anymore to own a military style semi Automatic anymore on a A cat licence.
Even one without a large mag or a butt-stock that's modified in the effort to get around the no pistol-grip rule.
Its over.
For those that continue on moaning. Man up and face facts. ITS OVER.
Its time you moved on and got on with life, no different than seat belt and helmet laws in NZ, its the law, You either get used to it, form a party and get the law changed or move to a different country.

[scumdog]

Who is trying to guilt trip who here
All i are hearing out of the firearm side.....
Is poor me.....
I miss this i miss that....
Its not the guns fault.......
I dont get to do this.........
I dont get to do that.........
Gun control doesnt work........
its all the goverments fault........
I want more compensation than fair market value..........
Its gong to cost to much to do..........
What about a .000001 % of sport shooters..........
What about the .000000001% that have a legitimate use of assault riffles in NZ.......
The funniest is its not what the majority of people want when its very clearly what the majority of the people in NZ want.
the CHCh shooter is the poster boy of what happened under the old rules, he was a legal gun owners right up until he slipped in the os mag and pulled the triger killin 5o peope in a few mnutes, just as was the Aromonana shooter before him.
Grow up, move on, your rights to play bang bang, do not override the right of others not to be killed by a homicidal manic with a rifle, no one needed, that was only IMPORTED, modified to get around a poorly drafted law that the gun lobby lobbied with great zeaL TO AVOID CLOSING.

Nothing has changed with the gun sides 7 months on moaning its all poor, me poor me.


Its time you moved on and got on with life, no different than seat belt and helmet laws in NZ, its the law, You either get used to it, form a party and get the law changed or move to a different country.


Nope, I'll do the KB thing and whinge.

And join COLFO, the BRONZ of gun owners I suppose they look to you.

And await some form of definitive proof ALL New Zealanders were interviewed to find out their opinion of the new gun laws with all it's obscure banning of guns least likely to be used in a massacre.

I see the idiot in Germany used home made guns, (Luckily for his intended victims), why he used them I don't know as proper guns would not be THAT hard to source there.

And why he didn't use any of his bombs we'll never know.

[husaberg]

Nope, I'll do the KB thing and whinge.

And join COLFO, the BRONZ of gun owners I suppose they look to you.

And await some form of definitive proof ALL New Zealanders were interviewed to find out their opinion of the new gun laws with all it's obscure banning of guns least likely to be used in a massacre.

I see the idiot in Germany used home made guns, (Luckily for his intended victims), why he used them I don't know as proper guns would not be THAT hard to source there.

And why he didn't use any of his bombs we'll never know.

You will wait for definitive proof all NZ were interviewed:violin:
yeah throw in a impossible unneeded task as the numbers are not on your side.
i will give you a hint if 1 in ten over 18 are gun owners even with the partner vote you re never going to get much more than 20% in your favour which i exactly what the poll with 10,000 kiwis showed

Sixty-one per cent of respondents, polled by phone, thought the changes made were "about right".
Furthermore, 19 per cent of participants believed the amended law – banning a wide range of semi-automatic weapons and parts – didn't go far enough.
1009 eligible voters were polled via landline and mobile phone. The maximum sampling error is approximately ±3.1%-points at the 95 per cent confidence level
all the MPS far one voted in it favour also in case you missed it..
The Governor general ratified it, its the law tough too bad.

[scumdog]

You will wait for definitive proof all NZ were interviewed:violin:
yeah throw in a impossible unneeded task as the numbers are not on your side.
i will give you a hint if 1 in ten over 18 are gun owners even with the partner vote you re never going to get much more than 20% in your favour which i exactly what the poll with 10,000 kiwis showed

all the MPS far one voted in it favour also in case you missed it..
The Governor general ratified it, its the law tough too bad.

All MPs bar one voted for it as the majority were too worried about the backlash if they didn't, nothing to do with their conscience/morals or anything else decent, they ARE politicians after all.


Never mind, sold my 'nasty black evil' guns, bought four new guns and banked the rest of the $$$.

Win-win!:woohoo:

[husaberg]

All MPs bar one voted for it as the majority were too worried about the backlash if they didn't, nothing to do with their conscience/morals or anything else decent, they ARE politicians after all.


Never mind, sold my 'nasty black evil' guns, bought four new guns and banked the rest of the $$$.

Win-win!:woohoo:

Yes they are politician's, thus they respond to the will of the people.
Your own words betray you there, They would be worried about the backlash if they didn't follow the will of the majority of people.
Rather than a few fringe dicks that want to play bang bang and do not care about the lives of innocent people.

Guns are not evil, just the dick heads who want to have military style assault rifles they dont need in the first place for reasons that are not justifiable to anyone but other dickheads.

[scumdog]

Yes they are politician's, thus they respond to the will of the people.
Your own words betray you there, They would be worried about the backlash if they didn't follow the will of the majority of people.
Rather than a few fringe dicks that want to play bang bang and do not care about the lives of innocent people.

Guns are not evil, just the dick heads who want to have military style assault rifles they dont need in the first place for reasons that are not justifiable to anyone but other dickheads.



Haha, your first line is the funniest thing I've read on KB for a long time!:lol:


And you seem fixated with 'military style assault rifles' (whatever they are) but ignore the plethora of other guns swept up in the hysteria laden legislation....:shifty:

[husaberg]

Haha, your first line is the funniest thing I've read on KB for a long time!:lol:


And you seem fixated with 'military style assault rifles' (whatever they are) but ignore the plethora of other guns swept up in the hysteria laden legislation....:shifty:

Funny as You seem fixated on moaning and arguing about a law that has already been enacted.
No amount of your continued moaning is going to change it either.
History will be the judge of the merits of the law change but if it follows the experience all the other counties that have enacted similar laws you are totally wrong.


Evidence from 130 studies in 10 countries suggests that in certain nations the simultaneous implementation of laws targeting multiple firearms restrictions is associated with reductions in firearm deaths.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26905895

[onearmedbandit]

Rather than a few fringe dicks that want to play bang bang and do not care about the lives of innocent people.



I have no skin in this game but sorry that statement sums up everything I need to know about your point of view.

[husaberg]

I have no skin in this game but sorry that statement sums up everything I need to know about your point of view.

Lets see i patiently showed again and again the facts of the mater the stats the results while a few dick's make up crap and bitch and moan about something that is what the overwhelming majority of kiwis want.

Maybe the three separate occasions Scummy attempted, to knowingly misrepresent the reason why a firearm was on the prohibited list, made me realise, that he wasn't really interested in discussing stuff with any degree of common sense.
Or maybe it was the other times he made hypocritical statements insisting it wasnt the will of the people that these changes were made.
So Yeah sorry i upset your delicate sensibilities there Fraser. But if you want to quote stuff quote the lot for context.
but its a fact that the vast majority of kiwis do not need nor have ever needed a AR15 or any other large calibre assault rifle, and no amount of bitching or moaning that they do will change that fact.

[onearmedbandit]

So Yeah sorry i upset your delicate sensibilities there fraser. But if you want to quote stuff quote the lot for context.

You assume too much. You certainly didn't 'upset my delicate sensibilities' as I have virtually none. But I do find it interesting when people resort to insults etc to support what could otherwise be a reasonable argument. Maybe I mistook your statement as meaning everyone that wants the status quo to remain as such rather than just being aimed at opponents in here you've battled. Which of course does make more sense now I think about it.

[husaberg]

You assume too much. You certainly didn't 'upset my delicate sensibilities' as I have virtually none. But I do find it interesting when people resort to insults etc to support what could otherwise be a reasonable argument. Maybe I mistook your statement as meaning everyone that wants the status quo to remain as such rather than just being aimed at opponents in here you've battled. Which of course does make more sense now I think about it.

What makes no sense Fraser is being admonished for calling someone a dickhead after they literary behaved like a dickhead for hundreds of posts including attempting to repeatidly misrepresentwhere i didn't point out they were behaving like a dickhead.
which includes not wanting to believe a poll that had a 3% margin of error because they wouldn't believe it was true unless every single Kiwi was interviewed.

[onearmedbandit]

What makes no sense Fraser is being admonished for calling someone a dickhead after they literary behaved like a dickhead for hundreds of posts including attempting to repeatidly misrepresentwhere i didn't point out they were behaving like a dickhead.

Did you read what you quoted of mine?

"...Maybe I mistook your statement as meaning everyone that wants the status quo to remain as such rather than just being aimed at opponents in here you've battled. Which of course does make more sense now I think about it."

So I was right, I did mistake what you said as being aimed at a broad group instead of a few on here. I acknowledged that was a possibility.

[husaberg]

Did you read what you quoted of mine?

"...Maybe I mistook your statement as meaning everyone that wants the status quo to remain as such rather than just being aimed at opponents in here you've battled. Which of course does make more sense now I think about it."

So I was right, I did mistake what you said as being aimed at a broad group instead of a few on here. I acknowledged that was a possibility.

Yes Fraser it was more than just a possiblity it was right that you were wrong, it is is also more than possible that its right that two wrongs dont make a right or indeed that two wrights flew the first plane.
It is also likely that the law changes made in NZ will lower the rate at which people are killed by nutters with rifles, they never needed to have in the first place.
Not that the opponents of the law change will ever acknowledge this fact.

in the original post i was calling a group of pople dickheads they were the people that claimed they needed to have Ar15 and similar weapons. When they mealy wanted them.

[onearmedbandit]

Yes Fraser it was more than just a possiblity it was right that you were wrong, it is is also more than possible that its right that two wrongs dont make a right or indeed that two wrights flew the first plane.
It is also likely that the law changes made in NZ will lower the rate at which people are killed by nutters with rifles, they never needed to have in the first place.
Not that the opponents of the law change will ever acknowledge this fact.

Neither side is willing to talk reasonably with each other (from what I've witnessed and not just in this thread). The arguments just put further divisions between us as society. In my opinion there are so many facets to this debate that all have strong arguments behind them, that there will never be a consensus. I'm not fence-sitting (it's neither figuratively nor literally a comfortable place to position yourself) on the issue, just stating that an emotive subject involving issues such as loss of life and individual freedoms will always leave people unhappy.

[husaberg]

Neither side is willing to talk reasonably with each other (from what I've witnessed and not just in this thread). The arguments just put further divisions between us as society. In my opinion there are so many facets to this debate that all have strong arguments behind them, that there will never be a consensus. I'm not fence-sitting (it's neither figuratively nor literally a comfortable place to position yourself) on the issue, just stating that an emotive subject involving issues such as loss of life and individual freedoms will always leave people unhappy.

There is no need for talk the time has passed for that. The law has changed, no one has lost anything they actually needed, other than the victims and their families and those that have been effected by the reason this law change occurred.

[onearmedbandit]

There is no need for talk the time has passed for that. The law has changed, no one has lost anything they actually needed, other than the victims and their families and those that have been effected by the reason this law change occurred.

Like I say, there are many facets to this that have strong reasoning behind them, both pro and anti law change positions.

[TheDemonLord]

Maybe you should write 51 letters to the families of the victims spelling out how a few peoples right to play bang bang outwesight the rights of those killed in the recent attack then.
i would wager there are more people killed in NZ every year with a firearm, then there were ever registered Sport shooters useing ar15's and similar for any form of organised sport.
if you disagree, i am sure you will be easily able to prove just how popular this sport was in NZ.

I'll take that Wager.

6.6 (on average) per year.
vs
7,000 E-Cat Licence holders (given that only 500 P endorsements have been issued so far - that makes about 6,500 Sport shooters).

Just goes to show how ill-informed you are.

Edit:

I'll also point to that many people did sport shooting without an E-Cat licence, just using A-Cat legal ARs and 5 round Mags - like the 13 YO Girl that's already been mentioned. So, just using the E-Cat numbers is giving a smaller figure than the true figure.

[Beekeeper]

Like I say, there are many facets to this that have strong reasoning behind them, both pro and anti law change positions.

May I paraphrase that?

Like I say, there are many fuckwits discussing this that have strong reasoning behind them, both pro and anti law change positions

[austingtir]

^^Except for the fact nearly all the pro people are communists.

The rest are just misinformed.

[TheDemonLord]

Like I say, there are many fuckwits discussing this that have strong reasoning behind them, both pro and anti law change positions

I'm curious - if someone has a strong reason behind them, how can they be a Fuckwit on a given issue?

Since the term normally denotes some form of ignorance.

[pritch]

Like I say, there are many facets to this that have strong reasoning behind them, both pro and anti law change positions.

Our society has undergone major changes over the years. Locally, and probably elsewhere in NZ, a century ago every small town had a shooting range. Shooting was seen as a patriotic thing to do. Even when I went to high school virtually all boys were taught to shoot.

These days more people live in urban centres. Now solo mums form a large percentage of the population, they know nothing about guns except what they see on TV - and that's all bad. Helen Clarke probably didn't even know anybody who owned a gun, therefore in her mind nobody needed one. Jacinda might be similar except for her husband's occupation. The Nats still have farmers in their ranks so they will be better informed. NZ First have been sympathetic to gun owners in the past and Ron Mark's military experience means that among their members at least he is informed.

So now we have arived at a situation where most of the population is completely ignorant of firearms (apart from what they saw on TV). It's cold comfort that polling that population might show support for firearms law changes. That, however, is the situation. God Defend New Zealand indeed.

[TheDemonLord]

I've actually been talking to a few MPs, and have had some very interesting Chats with some of them, a few names you may even recognize.

Without going into Detail - the Regional MPs are starting to realize that despite the Media/Government spiel, a very large number of people are not happy about this - potentially up to 20% of the voting public.

The compliance rates of the Buyback currently are laughable, and is a very serious indicator as to just how botched this has been.

There's been some under-the-breath acknowledgement from people that voted for the first Tranche that perhaps they were voting with their heart, in the heat of the moment, without actually considering what they were doing.

I've got my hopes as to what will happen next election cycle, the question is whether it will occur.

[husaberg]

Our society has undergone major changes over the years. Locally, and probably elsewhere in NZ, a century ago every small town had a shooting range. Shooting was seen as a patriotic thing to do. Even when I went to high school virtually all boys were taught to shoot.

These days more people live in urban centres. Now solo mums form a latge percentage of the population, they know nothing about guns except what they see on TV - and that's all bad. Helen Clarke probably didn't even know anybody who owned a gun, therefore in her mind nobody needed one. Jacinda might be similar except for her husband's occupation. The Nats still have farmers in their ranks so they will be better informed. NZ First have been sympathetic to gun owners in the past and Ron Mark's military experience means that among their members at least he is informed.

So now we have arived at a situation where most of the population is completely ignorant of firearms (apart from what they saw on TV). It's cold comfort that polling that population might show support for firearms law changes. That, however, is the situation. God Defend New Zealand indeed.

You make a few assumptions there. Most of them disappointingly lacking in any degree of substance.
Whilst there is still a few farmers in the National party, it is not the average or even close to the predominate profession or background ,far from it. It hasn't been for decades.
It also is rather ignorant os those in the other parties that come from farming backgrounds, i know two labour MP's personally off farms one of whom was also a police officer and a president of the police associations who campaigned for the Police to be armed at all times.:innocent:
All these ""better informed rural types" and Ron Marks an all the rest , all willingly voted for the current legislation.
So don't go making out. "If only" they had there say it would have gone different as they had their say and the legislation went through.
After Aromonana, under the then national government there were sweeping changes o the firearm laws, that were full of loopholes that still allowed the sale of AR15 as long as a few reversible mods were made.
The law then, was designed specifically to ban AR15's and similar designs for A Class, only it never worked.
For the record out of all those posting, i would be one of the few that actually need daily access to a firearm for work. So suggesting those that oppose the law change are not well enough informed is not only insulting, its a total piss take.
The average firearm owner, has lost nothing they ever actually really needed. A few have lost something at best that was potentially handy. But those vocal lost nothing other than a toy.
I do not know a single farmer, that is up in arms about the law change in-fact it has never been mentioned and deal with farmers every day so to make out it a huge issue is at best ill informed.
I deal with farmers every day all year round and thus far not a peep about it.
Anyone, who by some deranged point of view, thinks that any successive government will change the law. Is going to to be up against those that make up 80% of the population that has had to pay for this as too why they are wasting their money that was spend making the country safer to give people access to a firearm they simply do not need.

It also ignores the experience of Australia who experieced a decline in gun violence and no one has repealed the firemarm laws there in successive governments.

[Danger Mouse]

Posted on September 29, 2019
By Dr Muriel Newman
The Government of Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern is shaping up to be one of the most controlling in New Zealand’s history.

Like all socialist regimes that aim to impose the will of a few onto the many, they will eventually fail because most people by their very nature do not want to be controlled. Socialists refuse to understand that simple truth of the human spirit.

The attraction of socialism is that it sounds so good, especially to those who feel they would benefit from the taxing of others.

Winston Churchill described it well when he said, “Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy”. While he then went on to say, “Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery”, he was not quite right. There are some who don’t have to share in the misery of socialism – namely the ruling elite.

The reality is that throughout history, socialism – which can be characterised as excessive government control – has led to widespread hardship and oppression. But rather than being persuaded by past failure that socialism doesn’t work, the socialists’ response is to increase Government control.

The relentless expansion of the State is most certainly Jacinda Ardern’s agenda.

After taking office in 2017, her ruling coalition wasted no time in ordering all businesses with workers on the minimum wage to increase their hourly rate by 27 percent from $15.75 to $20 an hour by 2021.

As a result of those directives and a raft of draconian industrial relations law changes – designed to satisfy the demands of the unions – business confidence has now fallen to its lowest level since the Global Financial Crisis.

The Coalition even took a punitive approach to reducing plastic waste. To be seen to be ‘doing something’, instead of supporting businesses who were phasing out single use plastic bags, the Government banned them, imposing fines of up to $100,000 for anyone breaching the prohibition.

New licenses for offshore oil and gas exploration were also outlawed – a whole industry undermined without warning.

Now the Government is in the throes of legislating to penalise emissions of man-made greenhouse gases. This includes an initial 10 percent reduction in the methane produced by cows and sheep eating grass, eventually increasing to 47 percent – threatening the viability of many farmers.

These regulations that are being introduced in the name of climate change – a mania now being led by a 16 year old Swedish child, Greta Thunberg – represent a significant expansion of Government control of the economy. If Labour’s zero carbon legislation is supported by New Zealand First or National, it is expected to be passed by Christmas. Families will then begin to feel the financial pressure, as more of their household budget will be needed to cover the rising cost of power, fuel, and food.

More Government control over freshwater has also been proposed, with farmers again being unreasonably targeted with punitive and costly regulations.

Then there are the attacks on civil liberties, including yet more firearms regulations, and the PM’s call for restrictions on the freedom of expression.

These changes arose in response to the Christchurch tragedy. But instead of waiting until the Royal Commission of Inquiry reports back, to determine exactly what law changes are needed, public outrage and grief created an opportunity for Labour to impose heavy-handed restrictions that, under normal circumstances, would have been rejected by freedom loving Kiwis.

In her haste to be seen to be legislating faster than Australia after their Port Arthur massacre, Jacinda Ardern trampled on democracy and rushed into law blanket bans on guns and parts, undermining the long-established rights of Kiwi firearm owners to enjoy their sport.

Now the next phase of Labour’s attack on gun owners, the Arms Amendment Bill, is being fast-tracked through Parliament, with submissions due on October 23rd – see HERE for details.

The main purpose of the new law is to introduce a firearms register. In addition, it tightens gun licensing requirements by reducing the licensed period from 10 years to 5 years, imposes new regulations and costs on shooting clubs, establishes a new firearms advisory bureaucracy, requires doctors to share medical concerns with Police, and it substantially increases fees and penalties.

Through more controls and restrictions, especially the registration of firearms, Labour is further punishing law-abiding New Zealand gun owners, since criminals and extremists who are responsible for most of the country’s gun crimes are highly unlikely to register their firearms! That was certainly the case in Australia, where 90 percent of firearms used in criminal offences are unregistered.

The gun registration scheme proposed in the Bill is likely to fail. Registration was first introduced in New Zealand in the 1920s but was eventually revoked through the 1983 Arms Act because it was inaccurate and too costly to maintain.

The new approach that was introduced was based on the common sense concept that it is the user, not the weapon, that poses a danger to society. The focus therefore changed to gun owners to ensure they were “fit and proper” and that their firearms were securely stored.

Based on our own experience, the firearm registration scheme being proposed by Labour, will not only become an expensive bureaucratic behemoth costing taxpayers far more than our politicians care to admit, but it will not prevent future tragedies. The only gain will be political – it will be regarded as a ‘win’ by those Labour supporters who would like to see all guns in New Zealand banned.

The Police Minister Stuart Nash has estimated the cost of firearms registration will be up to $53 million over 10 years. But Canada’s experience should provide a warning.

When Canada’s gun registry was introduced in 1995, it was estimated to cost C$2 million. But the price blew out exponentially – to C$3 billion! The government finally abandoned trying to register shotguns and rifles and now just tracks restricted weapons including handguns and semi-automatics.

The problem was that the Canadian Government introduced gun registration in the wake of a mass shooting in Montreal. But firearm registration was not the first legislative crackdown on legal gun ownership – it was the second.

As a result, law abiding Canadian gun owners felt they were being unfairly targeted by their Government. Many protested by refusing to register their firearms. Some actively obstructed the process, by registering other items like soldering guns instead!

There were expensive court battles, and during its entire 17 year existence, Canada’s gun register was said to have recorded no more than a third of the guns otherwise legally owned in the country.

The point was made that registering guns is not like registering cars and boats, which are used on public roads and can be monitored by the police. Instead, most guns are privately owned and used, making enforcement difficult and expensive.

Through her ill-advised law changes just after the shooting, Jacinda Ardern has already alienated gun owners – repeating Canada’s mistakes. As a result, the outcome of gun registration in this country is almost certain to be an expensive disaster.

Not content with gun control in the aftermath of Christchurch, our Prime Minister also set her sights on restricting the freedom of expression.

In an unprecedented move, the Chief Censor was called upon to ban both the gunman’s video of the shooting and his manifesto. By classifying them as objectionable, anyone knowingly possessing or sharing them could be fined up to $10,000 or be sentenced to a prison term of up to 14 years.

Radio New Zealand reported that by August there had been 35 charges relating to possession of the video, leading to 14 prosecutions, 10 referrals to the Youth Court, one written warning and eight verbal warnings. One man is known to have been sentenced to two years in jail.

Hundreds of people are also on a Police ‘watchlist’ for the crime of free expression. The Police turn up at homes asking about opinions on a range of matters including immigration, colonisation, and politics. One person reported being accused by the Police of calling the Prime Minister “a socialist”. It is very troubling indeed when Police come knocking because someone is accusing the PM – a former president of the International Union of Socialist Youth – of being a socialist!

Under Labour, our free society is no longer free. But it’s going to get worse.

Not satisfied with just banning the video of the Mosque shooting in New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern wanted it prohibited world-wide. She began working with the French President Emmanuel Macron on the “Christchurch Call”, an initiative to suppress terrorist content on the Internet.

Strong concerns were expressed that this could lead to the wholesale censorship of the Internet. Indeed, that is what now seems to be occurring.

This week’s NZCPR Guest Commentator Dr Bronwyn Howell, a programme director at Victoria University and an adjunct scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, has been closely following these developments and is now concerned that the Christchurch Call is leading to widespread social engineering:

“Facebook’s September 17 announcement that it has updated its definition of dangerous individuals and organizations, and would be extending its initiative to use algorithms to redirect individuals using terms associated with searches for white supremacy to resources focused on helping people leave behind hate groups to include Indonesia, Australia, and New Zealand, constitutes a significant development.

“Since March, US search queries on Facebook using terms algorithmically determined to be associated with white supremacy have been redirected to Life After Hate, an organization founded by former violent extremists that provides crisis intervention, education, support groups and outreach.

“While there may be considerable popular support for Facebook’s use of algorithms in this manner, there are equally as many questions raised about the legitimacy of attempts to use platforms to ‘socially re-engineer’ or ‘reprogram’ individuals.”

Dr Howell asks where is the mandate to override an individual’s internet request, to deliver a pre-selected search result. She believes such an intervention would normally only be possible following a transparent and accountable process agreed by the community of users collectively.

However, the reality is that Jacinda Ardern’s Christchurch Call appears to have encouraged Facebook and other Internet players into a greater use of censorship. It is highly likely they are responding to political pressure that if they do not do so voluntarily, a regulatory regime will be imposed on them.

The changes already made are significant. Try posting information on Facebook denying man-made global warming and you are likely to receive a notice telling you it has been categorised as “fake news” by their “fact checkers” and banned. You may also be told that if you persist in posting such content then your page or group will be downgraded so it does not feature in search rankings.

That Facebook’s ‘fact checkers’ claim the earth is now warmer than during the Medieval and Roman warm periods, raises concerns that they are conforming to crowd hysteria, and have become puppets of political control rather than the bastions of free expression and the truth.

It’s the same story with material supporting the role of colonisation. A meme for example, stating that poor social statistics for Maori were caused by such things as poor parenting, substance abuse, violence, and welfare dependency, rather than colonisation, was labelled as hate speech by Facebook and banned.

Whether such developments are the direct result of Jacinda Ardern’s closed-door talks with social media organisations is impossible to tell, but they certainly raise concerns that this new state of censorship is a taste of what’s to come in New Zealand if Labour delivers on their promise to introduce hate speech laws.

So while the mainstream media discourse is occupied with daily news, the bigger and more important story is the theft of personal freedoms as New Zealand heads down a path to state control.

No democracy can survive without free speech and open public discourse. The suppression of controversial ideas – whether genuinely offensive or just contrary to the views of the liberal elites – is a worrying step toward tyranny.

[husaberg]

Newman a pom who was a Act MP, that was never once elected as a seat MP.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Newman a pom who was a Act MP, that was never once elected as a seat MP.

Hows that relevant to what she’s written ?
Can’t see the link ?

[austingtir]

Hows that relevant to what she’s written ?
Can’t see the link ?

Its not and he forgets half his acolytes in the Greens and Labour are list mp's too. So anything they say including on gun control should be irrelevant....


I repeat we have unelected bureaucrats (many of which are outright communists) dictating to us what we can and cant do and say.... and people wonder why half of the UK is fed up with the EU.... and yet we have a similar parliamentary system to bloody Germany of all places.....

This is why I keep saying we need to get rid of list MP's and move to Australia's system.

[husaberg]

Hows that relevant to what she’s written ?
Can’t see the link ?

lets see how that relevant to what shes written anyone else have an idea why a right wing pom has been, who never even was able to win an election for a electorate seat alone lead a party knows better or is a reliable source of unbiased information........leading up to an election where the party she belonged to is teetering on not even getting a seat and has only got a seat in the last few election as National doent run anything against them in a safe right wing seat.

[pritch]

Y
The law then, was designed specifically to ban AR15's and similar designs for A Class, only it never worked.


It worked fine for a decade or two. The thumbhole stock AR15s with no flash hider etc came later. IIRC the Police objected but were over ruled on the basis that they administer the laws, they don't make them.

You are reading a lot into what I wrote that is just not there. Basically I was saying that society has changed and the population (including politicians) has nowhere near the understanding of firearms that was general in days gone by.

[husaberg]

It worked fine for a decade or two. The thumbhole stock AR15s with no flash hider etc came later. IIRC the Police objected but were over ruled on the basis that they administer the laws, they don't make them.

You are reading a lot into what I wrote that is just not there. Basically I was saying that society has changed and the population (including politicians) has nowhere near the understanding of firearms that was general in days gone by.

Come on Pritch, you claimed that National were better informed there was no basis for this, or conjecture about labour MPs.
Police were threatened with court action by gun city not long before the CHCH shooting for attempting to stop the importation of Ar15's.

No amount of "Understanding'" is gong to convince the majority of NZ that An AR15 is anywhere near being a necessity.
Society has changed its became less risk adverse for one.
the law worked until it didnt, there were warning years ahead of time there were many recomendations from expert groups that were dismissed as people were afraid of the Gun lobby.
Firearm ownership in NZ is not a right, its a privilege, As a result of greed and a few peoples stupidity, the privileges that were allowed in past times are no longer deemed to be acceptable risks for the majority of the population.

You might not agree with this, but you are in the minority holding this opinion.
Its not in the majority of the NZ population opinion acceptable to have that level of firepower freely available to all and sundry.
Having weapons freely available for a few days pay that can kill 50 people in a few minutes is no longer acceptable.
Peoples right to go about there daily lives unharmed exceed the rights of those that want to have a weapon that serves no practical purpose.
Its pretty simple stuff. Its also foolhardy to blame the government when it was the whole parliaments decision.
The blame lies with those that committed the crimes with the firearms and those that purposely sort to circumvented the laws that were designed to protect kiwis.

[Katman]

lets see how that relevant to what shes written anyone else have an idea why a right wing pom has been, who never even was able to win an election for a electorate seat alone lead a party knows better or is a reliable source of unbiased information........leading up to an election where the party she belonged to is teetering on not even getting a seat and has only got a seat in the last few election as National doent run anything against them in a safe right wing seat.

Is that even English?

[TheDemonLord]

The blame lies with those that failed to properly vet the Terrorist and issued them a licence when they didn't meet the Criteria

Fixed for accuracy.

[austingtir]

"Quote Originally Posted by husaberg"
"The blame lies with those that failed to properly vet the Terrorist and issued them a licence when they didn't meet the Criteria"

And the Tooth Monster who thought it was a good idea to make it even easier at around xmas time last year to change the rules and let him aquire the guns he wanted really really easy.


Its all been very convenient for the communist tooth monster actually.

[pritch]

Come on Pritch, you claimed that National were better informed there was no basis for this, or conjecture about labour MPs.


My comments were based on my experience. Your experience must be different.

I don't give a shit about AR15s, AK47s, or anything similar. Nor did I say that I did.

The majority rule, that's how the system works. It's just a shame that the majority are almost totally ignorant of the topic. Then again, that's the normal situation. Nobody knows everything.

[jasonu]

My comments were based on my experience. Your experience must be different.

I don't give a shit about AR15s, AK47s, or anything similar. Nor did I say that I did.

The majority rule, that's how the system works. It's just a shame that the majority are almost totally ignorant of the topic. Then again, that's the normal situation. Nobody knows everything.

Someone around here thinks he knows everything.
Hint,

[husaberg]

Is that even English?

Makes far more sense than anything you have ever written, but then again its not an open expression of your homoerotic fantasies or conspiracy drivel now is it.

[husaberg]

My comments were based on my experience. Your experience must be different.

I don't give a shit about AR15s, AK47s, or anything similar. Nor did I say that I did.

The majority rule, that's how the system works. It's just a shame that the majority are almost totally ignorant of the topic. Then again, that's the normal situation. Nobody knows everything.

As i said i know two current Mp's for labour that both grew up on the same farm one of which was a police officer for 25 years and wanted to arm the police when he was head of the police association
The two Labour MPS damian and Greg oconnor whose father was the national chairman for the Dairy section of Federated farmers and director of the Dairy company.
these two who have two brothers currently dairy farming might know something of farming, maybe more then simon buuridges paula Bennett and crusher Collins do combined

But as All the National MP's also voted for the law change so either they agree with the law, or they were just as missinformed or informed as all the rest.
If you dont agree with majority rules, just go to a country with a dictator or start your own republic either way take along Asstinkler

[austingtir]

As i said i know two current Mp's for labour that both grew up on the same farm one of which was a police officer for 25 years and wanted to arm the police when he was head of the police association
All the National MP voted for the law change so either they agree with the law or they were just as missinformed as the rest or informed the same.
If you dont agree with majority rules, just go to a country with a dictator or start your own republic either way take along Asstinkler


What like this ex labour mp?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=12276477&ref=twitter

Votes to ban semi auto firearms with two days of public consultation.
Goes on holiday and shoots the same gun he votes to ban = Total tool

That said. It was in another country FFS! Just because we have a communist tooth monster dictating to us what guns we are allowed doesnt mean you can't do what you like when your not in this shithole!! But yeah Jones is still a dickhead...

And you can see at the end of the article the tooth fairy still thinks she has majority opinion behind her... well we will see in 2020 when the polls arent manipulated by Patrick Gower lookalikes and we get to actually vote these clowns out!!

[pritch]

As i said i know two current Mp's for labour that both grew up on the same farm one of which was a police officer for 25 years and wanted to arm the police when he was head of the police association
The two Labour MPS damian and Greg oconnor whose father was the national chairman for the Dairy section of Federated farmers and director of the Dairy company.
these two who have two brothers currently dairy farming might know something of farming, maybe more then simon buuridges paula Bennett and crusher Collins do combined

But as All the National MP's also voted for the law change so either they agree with the law, or they were just as missinformed or informed as all the rest.
If you dont agree with majority rules, just go to a country with a dictator or start your own republic either way take along Asstinkler

There are more than two Labour MPs in Parliament.

As for the rest of your comments, you're still arguing with things I didn't write.

[TheDemonLord]

But as All the National MP's also voted for the law change so either they agree with the law, or they were just as missinformed or informed as all the rest.


I've spoken with a number of them - Let's just say they are getting Buyers Remorse - and seeing just how badly this has impacted some of their key voting base, they are trying to save face.

[Swoop]

It's rather intersting that the police have lost 8 firearms from an Auckland police station recently...

[scumdog]

Come on Pritch, you claimed that National were better informed there was no basis for this, or conjecture about labour MPs.
Police were threatened with court action by gun city not long before the CHCH shooting for attempting to stop the importation of Ar15's.

No amount of "Understanding'" is gong to convince the majority of NZ that An AR15 is anywhere near being a necessity.
Society has changed its became less risk adverse for one.
the law worked until it didnt, there were warning years ahead of time there were many recomendations from expert groups that were dismissed as people were afraid of the Gun lobby.
Firearm ownership in NZ is not a right, its a privilege, As a result of greed and a few peoples stupidity, the privileges that were allowed in past times are no longer deemed to be acceptable risks for the majority of the population.



I suspect the very ones you call the 'Gun Lobby' were the same that gave 'many recommendations' to the government.

And were soundly ignored.

As usual "Government knows best":rolleyes:

[husaberg]

There are more than two Labour MPs in Parliament.
As for the rest of your comments, you're still arguing with things I didn't write.




These days more people live in urban centres. Now solo mums form a large percentage of the population, they know nothing about guns except what they see on TV - and that's all bad. Helen Clarke probably didn't even know anybody who owned a gun, therefore in her mind nobody needed one. Jacinda might be similar except for her husband's occupation. The Nats still have farmers in their ranks so they will be better informed. NZ First have been sympathetic to gun owners in the past and Ron Mark's military experience means that among their members at least he is informed.
.
Oddly Paula benefit was the last National police minister and was an urbanite solo mother yet from memory no gun owner had issues with her credentials to rule on firearms despite not being a farmer. Despite have no experience with firearms she over ruled the police and the select committee of firearms experts chosen by the government recommendations in most cases ,I wonder if that was because she did what they wanted.:laugh:


I suspect the very ones you call the 'Gun Lobby' were the same that gave 'many recommendations' to the government.

And were soundly ignored.

As usual "Government knows best":rolleyes:

You would be wrong on the first bit right on the second and the third.
The select committee was selected by the national party and more than 2/3ds of the recommendations were rejected by Paula benefit.
the Gun lobby said (i will paraphrase) the NZ firearms las are the best practice in the world and not a thing needs changing.

https://www.nranz.com/assets/Documents/2017-04-12-COLFO-Full-Review-on-LOSC-Report.pdf




Police Minister Paula Bennett has today responded to the Law and Order Select Committee report on issues relating to the illegal possession of firearms.
The Select Committee’s terms of reference were to focus on how widespread firearms possession is amongst criminals – including gangs, how those people who don’t have a firearms licence come into possession of firearms and what changes, if any, would restrict the flow of firearms to criminals, gangs and people who don’t hold a licence.

“The committee made 20 recommendations. After careful consideration I’ve accepted seven, rejected 12, and recommended one proceed with changes,” Mrs Bennett says.

Summary of the Government Response
Recommendation Number Summarised Recommendation Government Response Summarised
Sale and supply of firearms and ammunition
1 A firearms licence required to possess ammunition Reject
2 A dealer’s licence required to sell ammunition Reject
3 Dealers required to keep records of ammunition sales Reject
4 Registration process for websites facilitating trading in firearms, parts, or ammunition Amend recommendation - Do not introduce registration but clarify ‘mail order’ process applies to online sales in Arms Amendment Bill
5 Permit to procure extended to cover all sales or transfers of firearms (i.e. include A category firearms) Reject - but improve efficiency in current licensing and permitting processes. Mail order applies to online sales
Definition of military-style semi-automatics
6 Investigate the creation of a category of restricted semi-automatic rifle and shotgun Reject
Effectiveness of licensing, training, and registering firearms
7 Implement firearm prohibition orders Accept - include in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
8 Codify the ‘fit and proper’ criteria in the Arms Act Reject
9 Implement a stand-down period after licence revocation Accept - include a 12 month stand down period in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
10 Clarify that gang members or prospects must not be considered ‘fit and proper’ to possess firearms Accept - include in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
11 Require Police to record serial numbers of all firearms upon renewal of licence or inspection of premises Reject – voluntary process to continue
Criminal offending with firearms
12 Review the penalties in the Arms Act Accept - progress in Arms Amendment Bill
13 Treat dealer offending as aggravated at sentencing Reject
14 Determine appropriate security standards for A category licences Accept - Police/firearms community advisory forum already commenced this process
15 Secure storage confirmed before licence or endorsement received Reject
16 Allow Police to enter premises to inspect security of A category firearms Reject
17 Failure to comply with storage regulations to result in mandatory revocation Reject - but note new suspension of licence

Reducing the number of grey firearms
18 Clarify and publicise the extent of amnesty provisions in the Arms Act 1983 Accept - to progress in Arms Amendment Bill
19 Police publicise amnesty provisions Reject
20 Check that firearms brought in on visitors permit are exported or transferred legally Accept (administrative)
Additional Government Recommendations
1 Provide the power to suspend licences Include in the Arms (Firearm Prohibition Orders and Firearms Licences) Amendment Bill
2 Police to improve its consultative processes with the firearms community Propose to give a Ministerial Directive to this end
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/government-response-firearms-select-committee-report

[austingtir]

https://i.redd.it/uanbkqick5t31.jpg

[jasonu]

The stupid and pointless gun grab is working soooooo well the NZ Fuzz is setting up a new armed police squad as they 'have had growing concerns about the increasing number of incidents that police respond to that involve firearms'
Nice one Labour. What a joke.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12277479

[Laava]

The stupid and pointless gun grab is working soooooo well the NZ Fuzz is setting up a new armed police squad as they 'have had growing concerns about the increasing number of incidents that police respond to that involve firearms'
Nice one Labour. What a joke.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12277479
So you want to criticise the govt on one hand for trying to impose gun reform, brought about by gun violence and then on the other hand condemn them for having to step up law enforcement armaments because of rising public violent incidents? You can't have it both ways chump!
Has it occurred to you that these issues are not actually caused by this govt?
Complaining about a problem with out posing a solution is called whining.

[jasonu]

So you want to criticise the govt on one hand for trying to impose gun reform, brought about by gun violence and then on the other hand condemn them for having to step up law enforcement armaments because of rising public violent incidents? You can't have it both ways chump!
Has it occurred to you that these issues are not actually caused by this govt?
Complaining about a problem with out posing a solution is called whining.

What they have done has made absolutely no difference to public safety.
I doubt any regular NZ citizen can truthfully say they feel safer after the gun grab where only law abiding people have handed in their hardware.

[husaberg]

What they have done has made absolutely no difference to public safety.
I doubt any regular NZ citizen can truthfully say they feel safer after the gun grab where only law abiding people have handed in their hardware.

So after the similar law changes made in Austrialia

The Australian situation
Following the Port Arthur incident, Australia implemented the National Firearms Agreement (NFA).
Prohibited firearms that were handed in under the Australian government’s buy-back scheme after the Port Arthur massacre
Reaearchers from the University of Sydney and Macquarie University in 2006, 2016 and 2018 looked at the number of mass killings before and after the NFA, and also whether the law changes affected the number of firearm-related deaths.
Their research showed that while there had been 13 mass shootings (using the definition of five or more people killed) in the 18 years before the law changes, there had been none in the 22 years following (though there was one mass shooting involving seven members of one family at Margaret River in Western Australia in May 2018).

Yet contrast this with the USA with there in and out partial 10 year only firearm law changes.
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2015/07/55.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png

Any person with a shred of common sense can tell quite simply that anyone who feels that tighter firearm controls doesn't effect public safety is a blithering idiot.

[austingtir]

^^

Or someone that can see the forrest for the trees might be wondering about those CIA MKULTRA programs and all the kids growing up on opiods and all sorts of drugs due to all the jobs going to china over the last 30 years.....

All the USA's manufacturing disappearing and dodgy politicians for the last 40+ years have wrecked havoc on the nuclear family in the USA.

That graph is a direct result of those trends and some "manipulation" by the likes of the CIA/MSM or similar imo.

Stephen paddock didnt haul 30+ guns mid way up a hotel just because he was "mentally ill" and then shoot himself in the head with a random handgun.

Again I come back to Obama changing the law for the MSM to propagandize the US people. Notice the spike around 2012 when the MSM went full propaganda mode?

But im just a conspiracy theorist for saying such things... A term of course coined by the CIA.

Guns dont shoot themselves.

[jasonu]

So after the similar law changes made in Austrialia


Yet contrast this with the USA with there in and out partial 10 year only firearm law changes.
https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2015/07/55.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png

Any person with a shred of common sense can tell quite simply that anyone who feels that tighter firearm controls doesn't effect public safety is a blithering idiot.

So do you fell safer, less safer, or no different after the gun grab?

[Laava]

What they have done has made absolutely no difference to public safety.
I doubt any regular NZ citizen can truthfully say they feel safer after the gun grab where only law abiding people have handed in their hardware.
Oh, really! Oh good then, good to know the facts....
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRYcd_HcW7MlguJKefpxXyysJfGqGu czEYdJDRF7iEOR1-pwpSO

[husaberg]

So after the similar law changes made in Austrialia
Yet contrast this with the USA with there in and out partial 10 year only firearm law changes.
Any person with a shred of common sense can tell quite simply that anyone who feels that tighter firearm controls doesn't effect public safety is a blithering idiot.



So do you fell safer, less safer, or no different after the gun grab?
I posted actual evidence that not only refutes what you said, it proves you have no clue about the actual subject
i am not surprised you change the subject and ignore that you are clearly wrong.
Any person with a shred of common sense can tell quite simply that anyone who feels that tighter firearm controls doesn't effect public safety is a blithering idiot.

[jasonu]

I posted actual evidence that not only refutes what you said, it proves you have no clue about the actual subject
i am not surprised you change the subject and ignore that you are clearly wrong.
Any person with a shred of common sense can tell quite simply that anyone who feels that tighter firearm controls doesn't effect public safety is a blithering idiot.

So do you feel safer now law abiding citizens that were never going to conduct any sort of shoot out have been made to hand in their weapons?

[husaberg]

So do you feel safer now law abiding citizens that were never going to conduct any sort of shoot out have been made to hand in their weapons?

What they have done has made absolutely no difference to public safety.
I doubt any regular NZ citizen can truthfully say they feel safer after the gun grab where only law abiding people have handed in their hardware.

How about you actually prove we are not safer as you claimed, when the stats from both the Australasian and the US shows that only an imbecile would conclude that stricter firearm control doesnt work in lowering the firearms deaths and number of mass shootings.

[jasonu]

How about you actually prove we are not safer as you claimed, when the stats from both the Australasian and the US shows that only an imbecile would conclude that stricter firearm control doesnt work in lowering the firearms deaths and number of mass shootings.

So that's a 'no I don't feel any safer and the whole gun grab has been a total waste of time and tax payers money'.

[husaberg]

So that's a 'no I don't feel any safer and the whole gun grab has been a total waste of time and tax payers money'.

You really should learn to read.

[Danger Mouse]

Taken from a gunsmith not referring to me as doing modifications

[Laava]

So that's a 'no I don't feel any safer and the whole gun grab has been a total waste of time and tax payers money'.
Hey bro, wrong forum, try this one; www.boringtwatscraponendlessly.cum

[jasonu]

Hey bro, wrong forum, try this one; www.boringtwatscraponendlessly.cum

So that's a no from you too.
Pretty hard to defend all the stupidity from your leaders aye.


Along the same lines.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12278209

[Laava]

So that's a no from you too.
Pretty hard to defend all the stupidity from your leaders aye.


Along the same lines.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12278209
No, I'm quite happy with what our govt is doing re gun control. Should have been done years ago IMO. Happy we aren't going to end up like the United States of Arsehole. Spose that's why you like it there tho eh? You have guns so you can feel like a man?

[Danger Mouse]

No, I'm quite happy with what our govt is doing re gun control. Should have been done years ago IMO. Happy we aren't going to end up like the United States of Arsehole. Spose that's why you like it there tho eh? You have guns so you can feel like a man?

Yep, that circumventing of democratic process, lying to the public and ramming through legislation without understanding it should have been done years ago.

And only an antagonist meat head without any valid argument would revert to, ahurr durr, gun make you big man you rambo. Ergh, tuff as.

I reckon you could have a better argument than that if you weren't trying to point score.

[TheDemonLord]

No, I'm quite happy with what our govt is doing re gun control. Should have been done years ago IMO. Happy we aren't going to end up like the United States of Arsehole. Spose that's why you like it there tho eh? You have guns so you can feel like a man?

I trust you'll be equally happy when they come for your property next.

[Laava]

Yep, that circumventing of democratic process, lying to the public and ramming through legislation without understanding it should have been done years ago.

And only an antagonist meat head without any valid argument would revert to, ahurr durr, gun make you big man you rambo. Ergh, tuff as.

I reckon you could have a better argument than that if you weren't trying to point score.
Again, I am quite happy with what our govt has done re gun control. And, guess what bozo, it affects me too, I have a modification choice which I am happy to do or not!
But I'm not crying about it on a bike forum!

[Danger Mouse]

Again, I am quite happy with what our govt has done re gun control. And, guess what bozo, it affects me too, I have a modification choice which I am happy to do or not!
But I'm not crying about it on a bike forum!


My mistake, you can't come up with a decent argument. Dont complain when something you value is removed in the same manner, bozo.

[husaberg]

One common theme i see here s people that like to think the law shouldn't apply to them, that also display paranoia about the goverment clearly shouldnt have access to firearms.
The changes to the firearms law doesn't turn people into criminals, its the not obeying the firearms law that is the criminal behavour.
Calling the changes undemocratic is just epic stupidity, especially considering it was passed about 119-1 by people that are the democratically elected Members of Parliament.

[Laava]

My mistake, you can't come up with a decent argument. Dont complain when something you value is removed in the same manner, bozo.
There's nothing to argue about. It is a done deal meathead.

[austingtir]

There's nothing to argue about. It is a done deal meathead.

https://i.redd.it/yh0kel7trvt31.jpg

[Danger Mouse]

There's nothing to argue about. It is a done deal meathead.


Hahaha, so no actual response to what I said.

Good one, meathead.

[Laava]

Hahaha, so no actual response to what I said.

Good one, meathead.
I did respond. I just didn't respond how you would have liked. Tell someone who gives a fuck. Meathead.

[Danger Mouse]

I did respond. I just didn't respond how you would have liked. Tell someone who gives a fuck. Meathead.

You're getting awfully wound up there meathead.

[Laava]

You're getting awfully wound up there meathead.
Really? And yet you are the one who started out with abuse, so it looks more like it was you getting wound up you muppet!

[Danger Mouse]

Really? And yet you are the one who started out with abuse, so it looks more like it was you getting wound up you muppet!
Bwahahahahahahahahahaha.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA.

[austingtir]

This country is a bloody joke.

https://external.fakl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQD78HYY__mkeKy4&w=540&h=282&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresources.stuff.co.nz%2Fcontent% 2Fdam%2Fimages%2F1%2Fx%2Fs%2Fy%2Fg%2Ff%2Fimage.rel ated.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1420x800.1xsx2o.p ng%2F1573099732941.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&fallback=news_d_placeholder_publisher&_nc_hash=AQAmDRqQEPmjFWXG


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117242736/police-meet-with-gang-leaders-to-try-and-convince-them-to-surrender-guns-during-amnesty?fbclid=IwAR0JmHP3IirenmOemX1fTyhJU4dNRQBub HLXWhkaYAMVFzxsL3tyIovLT-s



https://scontent.fakl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s851x315/75610779_10157000140059527_1367520460379521024_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQkD5OGdyRGyCNBCgU2oGnK4l3VGZgdVoI2PGNcCaH4 7GkIUjksHSuUCiw-ZD15bL1M&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl8-1.fna&oh=ca53ffec93530378650b853de48e4abe&oe=5E493CE7

[jasonu]

This country is a bloody joke.

https://external.fakl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQD78HYY__mkeKy4&w=540&h=282&url=https%3A%2F%2Fresources.stuff.co.nz%2Fcontent% 2Fdam%2Fimages%2F1%2Fx%2Fs%2Fy%2Fg%2Ff%2Fimage.rel ated.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.1420x800.1xsx2o.p ng%2F1573099732941.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&fallback=news_d_placeholder_publisher&_nc_hash=AQAmDRqQEPmjFWXG


https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117242736/police-meet-with-gang-leaders-to-try-and-convince-them-to-surrender-guns-during-amnesty?fbclid=IwAR0JmHP3IirenmOemX1fTyhJU4dNRQBub HLXWhkaYAMVFzxsL3tyIovLT-s



https://scontent.fakl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s851x315/75610779_10157000140059527_1367520460379521024_n.j pg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_oc=AQkD5OGdyRGyCNBCgU2oGnK4l3VGZgdVoI2PGNcCaH4 7GkIUjksHSuUCiw-ZD15bL1M&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl8-1.fna&oh=ca53ffec93530378650b853de48e4abe&oe=5E493CE7


These are the same police that just recently said anyone including gang members that haven't complied with the new rules will be be hunted down and prosecuted. The NZ cops have always been scared of the gangs and now they are showing they will treat them differently than law abiding citizens.

[Beekeeper]

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/monthly_2019_11/7C1C1025-6687-4A98-96FB-AB06F8156D4A.png.a68d20834f032ec6d43d959e76c7c83c. png

[pritch]

It’s reported that the US Supreme Court has granted the Sandy Hook parents the right to sue Remington, manufacturer of the weapon used by the killer. That’s potentially a game changer.

[TheDemonLord]

It’s reported that the US Supreme Court has granted the Sandy Hook parents the right to sue Remington, manufactured of the weapon used by the killer. That’s potentially a game changer.

That's a very dangerous precedent to set.

[jasonu]

It’s reported that the US Supreme Court has granted the Sandy Hook parents the right to sue Remington, manufactured of the weapon used by the killer. That’s potentially a game changer.

It’s fucking stupid.

[Danger Mouse]

This will knot the knickers of the sanctimonious.

https://cfnz.blog/2019/11/15/select-committee-shuts-down-livestream-after-submitter-points-out-shooter-could-not-have-been-vetted-properly/?fbclid=IwAR08xJeY-Ju6b3I-mtdCRuoedBloI05CbFo7gee3QMtHSRgs3PNBZlULMWs

[TheDemonLord]

This will knot the knickers of the sanctimonious.

https://cfnz.blog/2019/11/15/select-committee-shuts-down-livestream-after-submitter-points-out-shooter-could-not-have-been-vetted-properly/?fbclid=IwAR08xJeY-Ju6b3I-mtdCRuoedBloI05CbFo7gee3QMtHSRgs3PNBZlULMWs

What does one call it, when a Government agency tries to hide their mistakes and proceeds to use the consequences of said mistakes as justification to strip law-abiding citizens of their rights and private property with complicity from Parliament....

[Laava]

This will knot the knickers of the sanctimonious.

https://cfnz.blog/2019/11/15/select-committee-shuts-down-livestream-after-submitter-points-out-shooter-could-not-have-been-vetted-properly/?fbclid=IwAR08xJeY-Ju6b3I-mtdCRuoedBloI05CbFo7gee3QMtHSRgs3PNBZlULMWs

Why? Everybody knows the cops fucked up. It's less likely to happen again with the new gun control measures in place. Move on...

[jasonu]

Why? Everybody knows the cops fucked up. It's less likely to happen again with the new gun control measures in place. Move on...

Doubtful. Any resourceful mass shooter will always be able to get his hands on a weapon. Taking weapons that were legally obtained stored and used from law abiding citizens does nothing to stop the crims.

[Laava]

Doubtful. Any resourceful mass shooter will always be able to get his hands on a weapon. Taking weapons that were legally obtained stored and used from law abiding citizens does nothing to stop the crims.
Why can't you accept the fact that having a lot less guns available means it is not as easy to just randomly acquire them? Again, move on...
Too much 2nd admendment for you!

[Woodman]

Doubtful. Any resourceful mass shooter will always be able to get his hands on a weapon. Taking weapons that were legally obtained stored and used from law abiding citizens does nothing to stop the crims.

Then why didn't he do his mass shootings in Australia? Was it because of their strict gun control? Actually I am going to say it definitely was in the spirit of jumping to conclusions.

[Danger Mouse]

Why? Everybody knows the cops fucked up. It's less likely to happen again with the new gun control measures in place. Move on...

Not really. Putting more regulation due to failing to follow regulations doesn't solve anything

[Laava]

Not really. Putting more regulation due to failing to follow regulations doesn't solve anything
The difference between putting more regulation and physically removing guns is poles apart! Astounded that that even needs explaining really...

[austingtir]

Why did they feel the need to pull the livestream when things werent going their way then?

"One of the submitters, Paul, from Aoraki Ammunition Company. Paul presented a Police Mail Order Form to the camera, one that authorized the transfer of 2,320 rounds of ammunition to Brenton Tarrant. Before Paul could get into much detail the Select Committee halted his submission and cut off the live-stream. Apparently you can’t give any details that show police incompetence when the product of that incompetence is still working it’s way through the court system."


Of course they are going to hide behind the court system to try to hide this....

[husaberg]

Why did they feel the need to pull the livestream when things werent going their way then?

"One of the submitters, Paul, from Aoraki Ammunition Company. Paul presented a Police Mail Order Form to the camera, one that authorized the transfer of 2,320 rounds of ammunition to Brenton Tarrant. Before Paul could get into much detail the Select Committee halted his submission and cut off the live-stream. Apparently you can’t give any details that show police incompetence when the product of that incompetence is still working it’s way through the court system."


Of course they are going to hide behind the court system to try to hide this....
Gee bozo i wonder if him releasing that into the public might effect a future court case
Is there anyone else on KB that thick not to realise that...........

[Danger Mouse]

The difference between putting more regulation and physically removing guns is poles apart! Astounded that that even needs explaining really...


Sooo putting in more regulation just like I said. Attempting to remove legally held firearms from license holders, which addresses nothing, while letting criminals continue.

Seems likely to be effective.

[TheDemonLord]

Then why didn't he do his mass shootings in Australia? Was it because of their strict gun control? Actually I am going to say it definitely was in the spirit of jumping to conclusions.

Well, you should have read his Manifesto- he explicitly stated why he did it here.

And you are wrong.

[Woodman]

Well, you should have read his Manifesto- he explicitly stated why he did it here.

And you are wrong.

Why would I believe the words of a mass murderer?

[austingtir]

Why would I believe the words of a mass murderer?


Because its more believable than the propaganda the MSM has obviously suckered you with?

Half of it was a pisstake on the media and they fell for it hook line and sinker.

[TheDemonLord]

Why would I believe the words of a mass murderer?

Because they often tell you exactly their reasons for why they did what they did?

They literally have no reason to lie, they say exactly what they think as they see it.

And perhaps understanding that might be a better solution to preventing it than the current failure of a policy?

But as I said, the Terrorist was clear as to why he both came to NZand choose to use a Firearm.

And our Government obediently danced a jig to the tune he played

[austingtir]

One of the few people I have seen read the manifesto and then run through it and explain some parts of it in good detail would be Blonde in the belly of the beast: "Brenton tarrant acceleration and collapse". Youtube.

No hysterical bullshit just straight facts.

I wont link to it here.

[Woodman]

Because its more believable than the propaganda the MSM has obviously suckered you with?

Half of it was a pisstake on the media and they fell for it hook line and sinker.

Haven't followed the case at all to be fair, was just jumping to conclusions, it seems to be how it works on here.

[Danger Mouse]

One of the few people I have seen read the manifesto and then run through it and explain some parts of it in good detail would be Blonde in the belly of the beast: "Brenton tarrant acceleration and collapse". Youtube.

No hysterical bullshit just straight facts.

I wont link to it here.


If you hypothetically saw the this on you tube, what would your hypothetical opinion on it be?

[austingtir]

If you hypothetically saw the this on you tube, what would your hypothetical opinion on it be?

Well obviously I watched the video on my last holiday in mexico.... I joke.

Im pretty sure on the 16th of march viewing the manifesto was not "banned" yet which is when that vid was released.


Its good stuff. But obviously a conservative woman's point of view. Unlike our media here and overseas she was able to read through the manifesto and point out what is and isnt obvious bullshit.

Anybody thats read it should be able to see the reason why they banned it. Which is they had propaganda narratives to spin and having evidence that directly refutes practically everything they were saying would not fly.

[Kickaha]

Well, you should have read his Manifesto- he explicitly stated why he did it here.


We weren't the original target though, we became a target or opportunity once he moved here

[husaberg]

We weren't the original target though, we became a target or opportunity once he moved here

He also wasnt a criminal until he slipped in the large mags and procedded to kill the first of the 51 o people he killed and the other 40 people he shot and injured.
he also never needed the ar15 for any legitimate need or the large mags, nor did 99.9999 of other kiwis who had similar firearms.

[austingtir]

He also wasnt a criminal until he slipped in the large mags and procedded to kill the first of the 51 o people he killed and the other 40 people he shot and injured.
he also never needed the ar15 for any legitimate need or the large mags, nor did 99.9999 of other kiwis who had similar firearms.

You mean those ar15's that jacinda made even easier to obtain just 3 months before the event....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111438784/changes-to-gun-law-overseen-by-jacinda-ardern-described-as-crazy

[husaberg]

You mean those ar15's that jacinda made even easier to obtain just 3 months before the event....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111438784/changes-to-gun-law-overseen-by-jacinda-ardern-described-as-crazy

So your admiting its mainly iditiots having access to the guns thats the problem then, great just as well they are a hell of a lot harder to get them now.
Its a major relief that it keeps them out of the hands of the mentally deficient that have no need for them. ie the likes of you Austin.

[Woodman]

You mean those ar15's that jacinda made even easier to obtain just 3 months before the event....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111438784/changes-to-gun-law-overseen-by-jacinda-ardern-described-as-crazy

Ok , blame jacinda, the police, whoever you like, a Line has been drawn in the sand

[austingtir]

Ok , blame jacinda, the police, whoever you like, a Line has been drawn in the sand

Good thing its in the sand so we can wash it away in 2020.

[austingtir]

"Here is the Police Mail Order Form that authorized the transfer of 2,320 rounds of ammunition to Brenton Tarrant allowing him to do what he did. Was given a licence within 5 weeks of arriving in NZ with no friends or family in the country and no vetting. Blame shouldn't fall upon the shoulders of the firearms community in NZ, but squarely at the feet of Police. The media are too busy vilifying the NZ firearms community in the hope that people don’t see the trail of blood that leads to the police's own front door."


https://scontent.fakl8-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/77380928_1047158215633454_2286274932054687744_o.jp g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_oc=AQkMsMFf1T4Th3Frb1dDUlRglh3wVAJDG025kJrgjiT Efww3KxaFNDfIFogQFVoHaKw&_nc_ht=scontent.fakl8-1.fna&oh=d2dcde04cf41c342e855d3d57c382eaa&oe=5E880C8B


"When will the media start asking the serious hard hitting questions? Like why did NZ police not follow the stringent policies in place for license vetting?

The process for my license was very thorough taking 5 months, including multiple people interviewed. Two house inspections. Even my references interviewed with me being forced to leave the room so I couldn’t coerce the replies.

Yet in this case the guy was in NZ 5 WEEKS. With multiple overseas issues, and was granted his license without any inspections or real life references. I believe a huge proportion to of the blame for the March attacks lay with NZ police and their inability to do their job, which is to keep the Nz populace safe by enforcing and following the law. Not failing miserably at doing so, then trying to use 250,000 law abiding Nz firearms owners as a scapegoat, a simple distraction from the true cause. It’s a joke."

And then ontop of the police being totally inept they use the event as a political tool to take those scary guns away from those lawful citizens that seem to scare them so much yet the gangs seemingly get a free pass?

I am also hearing Tarrant tried and couldnt get into the states....

[jasonu]

I am also hearing Tarrant tried and couldnt get into the states....

and if he had it is highly unlikely he would have legally obtained a gun.

[husaberg]

and if he had it is highly unlikely he would have legally obtained a gun.

So are you suggesting that most of the mass murders in the USA use only illegally obtained firearms?
Because reality differs somewhat from your opinion.
82% of firearms used in mass murders in the USA are obtained legallly
Not only that, the USA has one of the the high rates of mass murders due to its lax gun controls.

[TheDemonLord]

We weren't the original target though, we became a target or opportunity once he moved here

Except, if you read the Manifesto before it was Censured, you'd know that the above isn't true.

[TheDemonLord]

He also wasnt a criminal until he slipped in the large mags and procedded to kill the first of the 51 o people he killed and the other 40 people he shot and injured.
he also never needed the ar15 for any legitimate need or the large mags

The second he put a Large Mag on his AR - he WAS a criminal.

As has been stated many times - if the Government came out and said that all High-Cap Magazines that fit a Semi-Auto receiver now require an E-Cat Licence, no one would have complained.

If they said that they would look to remove any High-Cap Magazine (like a lot of the Bolt Action rifles that use M-14 Magazines were imported with 20 round mags) by simply swapping it (bring in a 20 round mag, get 2 5 round magazines or similar) - No one would have complained.

This is driving a Wedge between the good relationship that the Police used to enjoy with Firearm Owners. That relationship, the regular face-to-face contact was the foundation that made our entire system work.

[jasonu]

So are you suggesting that most of the mass murders in the USA use only illegally obtained firearms?
Because reality differs somewhat from your opinion.
82% of firearms used in mass murders in the USA are obtained legallly
Not only that, the USA has one of the the high rates of mass murders due to its lax gun controls.

Well I guess that's the end of nice time around here.

[scumdog]

The second he put a Large Mag on his AR - he WAS a criminal.

As has been stated many times - if the Government came out and said that all High-Cap Magazines that fit a Semi-Auto receiver now require an E-Cat Licence, no one would have complained.

If they said that they would look to remove any High-Cap Magazine (like a lot of the Bolt Action rifles that use M-14 Magazines were imported with 20 round mags) by simply swapping it (bring in a 20 round mag, get 2 5 round magazines or similar) - No one would have complained.

This is driving a Wedge between the good relationship that the Police used to enjoy with Firearm Owners. That relationship, the regular face-to-face contact was the foundation that made our entire system work.


Can't give rep but so right on so many fronts.

[scumdog]

You mean those ar15's that jacinda made even easier to obtain just 3 months before the event....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/christchurch-shooting/111438784/changes-to-gun-law-overseen-by-jacinda-ardern-described-as-crazy


But is awful quiet abouth that - and other foo-foos by those meant to keep us safe...:angry2:

[Danger Mouse]

Well I guess that's the end of nice time around here.

? Given that the US has different laws on a per state basis, sweeping generalizations of the entire country aren't really a relevant comparison

[husaberg]

and if he had it is highly unlikely he would have legally obtained a gun.


So are you suggesting that most of the mass murders in the USA use only illegally obtained firearms?
Because reality differs somewhat from your opinion.
82% of firearms used in mass murders in the USA are obtained legallly.
Not only that, the USA has one of the the high rates of mass murders due to its lax gun controls.

Well I guess that's the end of nice time around here.

So how is you can suggest its mainly illegally obtained firearms when 82% of firearms used in mass murders in the US are legally obtained.
Were you totally unaware of this? Or were you just trying to make out you knew what you were talking about?

[jasonu]

? Given that the US has different laws on a per state basis, sweeping generalizations of the entire country aren't really a relevant comparison

Every state I have lived in has the same basic set up. You go to a shop, choose your gun, present your government photo ID they call for a background check you get a yay or nay or a come back tomorrow. Private sales now by law must be done at a place that holds an FFL, generally a gun shop and you pay them to conduct the same background check.

[Laava]

Every state I have lived in has the same basic set up. You go to a shop, choose your gun, present your government photo ID they call for a background check you get a yay or nay or a come back tomorrow. Private sales now by law must be done at a place that holds an FFL, generally a gun shop and you pay them to conduct the same background check.
What about gun fairs?

[Danger Mouse]

Every state I have lived in has the same basic set up. You go to a shop, choose your gun, present your government photo ID they call for a background check you get a yay or nay or a come back tomorrow. Private sales now by law must be done at a place that holds an FFL, generally a gun shop and you pay them to conduct the same background check.

There is still a lot of variance, closed carry, open carry etc. Chicago has huge gun crime and very restrictive legislation there.

I think it would be the same in other areas of legislation as well no? Differences state to state mean a sweeping comparison isnt really accurate.

[Kickaha]

Blame shouldn't fall upon the shoulders of the firearms community in NZ, but squarely at the feet of Police. The media are too busy vilifying the NZ firearms community in the hope that people don’t see the trail of blood that leads to the police's own front door."

I've often wondered why their role in this has hardly been mentioned


Except, if you read the Manifesto before it was Censured, you'd know that the above isn't true.
I did, that was where I got it from

[husaberg]

What about gun fairs?

Or private sales
These states dont always require background checks for the sale of firearms
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Massachusetts
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont
Virginia
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming

[jasonu]

What about gun fairs?

As far as I know licensed dealers at gun shows have always had to conduct the same background checks as actual gun shops and only licensed dealers can sell firearms at gun shows.

[jasonu]

There is still a lot of variance, closed carry, open carry etc. Chicago has huge gun crime and very restrictive legislation there.

I think it would be the same in other areas of legislation as well no? Differences state to state mean a sweeping comparison isnt really accurate.

Concealed and or open carry laws do vary by state but actually purchasing a firearm requires a background check.

[Laava]

As far as I know licensed dealers at gun shows have always had to conduct the same background checks as actual gun shops and only licensed dealers can sell firearms at gun shows.
Yep, but we all know if you want to buy guns, you can legally buy from any of the good ol' boys in the carpark outside eh? No license gubbins or nuffing!

[husaberg]

Every state I have lived in has the same basic set up. You go to a shop, choose your gun, present your government photo ID they call for a background check you get a yay or nay or a come back tomorrow. Private sales now by law must be done at a place that holds an FFL, generally a gun shop and you pay them to conduct the same background check.

Private sales
Background check required
All firearms
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
District of Columbia
Nevada[a]
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island
Vermont
Washington
Illinois
Massachusetts

Handguns
Marryland
Pennsylvania




As far as I know licensed dealers at gun shows have always had to conduct the same background checks as actual gun shops and only licensed dealers can sell firearms at gun shows.

Yes nice play on th ewords there but what about those that are at the gun shows that are not licenceed gun dealers.
https://gunsandamerica.org/story/19/01/29/what-the-so-called-gun-show-loophole-really-looks-like/
In 2017, a study by researchers from Northeastern University and the Harvard School of Public Health showed that 22% of American gun owners who had obtained a gun in the previous two years did not undergo a background check before doing so.
a 2016 representative survey found 86% of U.S. registered voters supported the measure to do Universal background check
Gun rights groups such as the National Rifle Association and National Shooting Sports Foundation oppose universal background check proposals.

[TheDemonLord]

I did, that was where I got it from

Eh, he said he came here, specifically to use a Firearm to prompt a knee-jerk law change (which the Politicians were falling over themselves to do) with the hopes it would cause the US to also try and change their Firearms laws (and with Beto O'Rourke, he came close) which would result in a full-on Civil War (which isn't out of the possibility yet).

Given the speed at which he got his licence (from Aoraki Ammo) - it is clear that he had already planned this before his Move.

[jasonu]

Yep, but we all know if you want to buy guns, you can legally buy from any of the good ol' boys in the carpark outside eh? No license gubbins or nuffing!

The discussion was about LEGALLY purchasing firearms in the USA (see post 9377) which is what your Brenton Tarrant managed to do in NZ.

[husaberg]

The discussion was about LEGALLY purchasing firearms in the USA (see post 9377) which is what your Brenton Tarrant managed to do in NZ.

Did you read the post before replying?
Isnt it interesting you dont want to almost all firearms used in mass killings in the USA are brought legally 82%.

[Laava]

The discussion was about LEGALLY purchasing firearms in the USA (see post 9377) which is what your Brenton Tarrant managed to do in NZ.
So you didn't actually read my post?

[jasonu]

Sounds a lot like a lot of 'fuck it didn't work anyone got a plan on how can we dig ourselves out of this mess without looking like cunts'.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12286649

[TheDemonLord]

Sounds a lot like a lot of 'fuck it didn't work anyone got a plan on how can we dig ourselves out of this mess without looking like cunts'.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12286649

The first step in admitting your policy was a failure is to pre-emptively get your excuses sorted.

I also heard from a reasonably reliable source that after December the 20th, the Police have been instructed to 'find and make an example of someone in each region' - Safer Communities together, right?

[austingtir]

Sounds a lot like a lot of 'fuck it didn't work anyone got a plan on how can we dig ourselves out of this mess without looking like cunts'.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12286649


What the NZ police and Jacinda have basically created is a potential black market of 100,000+ illegal firearms.


These people are inept and they need to be voted out. And we shouldnt stop with Jacinda and co. Next year after the election people should be calling for the heads of those at the head of the police force who gleefully went along with all this as well.

[TheDemonLord]

What the NZ police and Jacinda have basically created is a potential black market of 100,000+ illegal firearms.


These people are inept and they need to be voted out. And we shouldnt stop with Jacinda and co. Next year after the election people should be calling for the heads of those at the head of the police force who gleefully went along with all this as well.

More than that.

The lowest credible estimate was 250,000 - however David Tipple (Gun City) says GC alone has sold more than that - early on in the process a figure was given of some 660,000 Semi-Autos in NZ Circulation. This doesn't include all the banned Shotguns and Lever-action firearms.

using the Lowest estimate, with 30 days to go, only 15% of the lowest estimate have been handed in. At a huge Tax-payer cost.

It would be a great joke if it wasn't so damned serious

[jasonu]

It would be a great joke if it wasn't so damned serious

Yes it is a joke and it is bought to you by the labour parddy and all the fuckwits that voted for them.

[Laava]

Yes it is a joke and it is bought to you by the labour parddy and all the fuckwits that voted for them.
Has it occurred to you that some people voted labour simply because they were the best party at the election? In the same light that Trump got voted in?
case in point, nationals current leader. Is he prime minister material? If he stays as their leader, labour is pretty much guaranteed a second term.

[sidecar bob]

Sounds a lot like a lot of 'fuck it didn't work anyone got a plan on how can we dig ourselves out of this mess without looking like cunts'.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12286649

That's a bit like when I call my dog & she dosent come.
Then I say "do whatever you want" & instantly she becomes an obedient dog.

[jasonu]

Has it occurred to you that some people voted labour simply because they were the best party at the election? In the same light that Trump got voted in?
case in point, nationals current leader. Is he prime minister material? If he stays as their leader, labour is pretty much guaranteed a second term.

The way I saw it a lot of those people protested voted not for Labour but for the minor parties but got caught out when Winston went for Labour. I doubt that will happen again. True, Simon is far from ideal but with the continuous supply of Labour balls ups and Simons slightly better performance he just might end up being the best of a bad bunch.
I predict National and Trump for 2020.

[Laava]

Have you not been watching the news? Things are not going well for Trump at the moment.

[jasonu]

Have you not been watching the news? Things are not going well for Trump at the moment.

Depends on which news you watch. They’re all a bunch of liars.

[FJRider]

Has it occurred to you that some people voted labour simply because they were the best party at the election?

But Labour did not win enough seats in the house to form a Government. They needed help from the smaller Parties and a Party leader that has no electorate, but got into Parliament because his Party had enough Party votes to give him a seat in Parliament.

If more people thought they were "The best Party at the election" ... they would have won the election.

Now we have a Government by Committee. As such, some concessions have to be made by our noble leader to get policies in place.

[Laava]

But Labour did not win enough seats in the house to form a Government. They needed help from the smaller Parties and a Party leader that has no electorate, but got into Parliament because his Party had enough Party votes to give him a seat in Parliament.

If more people thought they were "The best Party at the election" ... they would have won the election.

Now we have a Government by Committee. As such, some concessions have to be made by our noble leader to get policies in place.
Yes we all know that. Neither did National win enough seats. But Labour were able to form a govt, something that eluded National at the time. Being able to work with and compromise with others, is what gives Labour the edge over National. Next election? We will see who has done enough, hopefully it won't just be Soymen Brudges crapping on endlessly about how badly Labour has done, but actually proposing something that the public likes and they can deliver on. I will not hold my breath.
Here's a nice idea, get rid of Wankpac as the govts bank of choice and support Kiwibank.

[Laava]

Depends on which news you watch. They’re all a bunch of liars.
No it doesn't. All the news outlets are reporting honestly on Trumpgate.

So where do you get your news from that you are the only one that knows what is going on then?
Here's a clue, you have no more clues than anyone else. Faith in Donald Trump has gone out of fashion now. Don't know where you are going to get a replacement from tho....

[TheDemonLord]

No it doesn't. All the news outlets are reporting honestly on Trumpgate.

I don't think I can name a single news outlet, Right or Left leaning that has ever reported honestly on anything to do with Trump.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes we all know that. Neither did National win enough seats. But Labour were able to form a govt, something that eluded National at the time. Being able to work with and compromise with others, is what gives Labour the edge over National. Next election? We will see who has done enough, hopefully it won't just be Soymen Brudges crapping on endlessly about how badly Labour has done, but actually proposing something that the public likes and they can deliver on. I will not hold my breath.
Here's a nice idea, get rid of Wankpac as the govts bank of choice and support Kiwibank.

It wasn't compromise.

It was Winston Peters and his desire to get back at National, ever since 1996.

[jasonu]

No it doesn't. All the news outlets are reporting honestly on Trumpgate.


Fuck mate that's about as likely as finding an honest politician.

[onearmedbandit]

No it doesn't. All the news outlets are reporting honestly on Trumpgate.



I'm curious as to how you measure that.

[Laava]

Fuck mate that's about as likely as finding an honest politician.
Which is why the news is to a degree untrustworthy. It is from, for the most part, and about untrustworthy people. You have to read between the lines. Which is exactly why Donald Trump is in so much trouble now, because people are working out that he is an untrustworthy fraudster.

So, where do you get all you accurate facts from?

[TheDemonLord]

Which is exactly why Donald Trump is in so much trouble now, because people are working out that he is an untrustworthy fraudster.

The Burden of proof is to show that he is much more of an untrustworthy Fraudster than every other politician. Given recent track records, that might be a bit of a struggle....

[Laava]

I'm curious as to how you measure that.
I didn't say it would be accurate. They for the mostpart report on information given/sold to them and they report on it. They don't just make it up although they often put zero effort into fact checking/spellchecking and context.
It is up to you to work out what is true.

[FJRider]

Yes we all know that. Neither did National win enough seats. But Labour were able to form a govt, something that eluded National at the time. Being able to work with and compromise with others, is what gives Labour the edge over National. Next election? We will see who has done enough, hopefully it won't just be Soymen Brudges crapping on endlessly about how badly Labour has done, but actually proposing something that the public likes and they can deliver on. I will not hold my breath.
Here's a nice idea, get rid of Wankpac as the govts bank of choice and support Kiwibank.

The basic "Thing" that gives Labour "The Edge" is ... it IS the Government. This results in introduced policies, that were full of compromises and concessions, to get some form of agreement to the Bill introduced. Not the policies how they (Labour) would have preferred.

At the next election ... the question wont be "Have they done enough .. ??? ... " but is it what the Labour voters wanted .. ???

[oldrider]

I don't think I can name a single news outlet, Right or Left leaning that has ever reported honestly on anything to do with Trump.

Hmmmm OK - Is there actually anything honest about Trump to report? - :scratch:

[FJRider]

Hmmmm OK - Is there actually anything honest about Trump to report? - :scratch:

That's his natural hair colour ... :innocent:

[Laava]

http://nzh.tw/12289841

[jasonu]

http://nzh.tw/12289841


Bit of TDS in the headline.

I thought all involved did a great job especially the copper that plugged that cunt.

[austingtir]

http://nzh.tw/12289841


Well he's not really wrong is he the terrorist was killed with a gun afterall.


Just think if those two that got stabbed had guns....


Anyway london is a complete shithole and I dont really care anymore as its not a place I will ever return to.

[Kickaha]

Just think if those two that got stabbed had guns....

Just think if the terrorist had a gun

[TheDemonLord]

Just think if the terrorist had a gun

Just think if the Terrorist had remained locked up in Jail for previous Terrorism offences.

[jasonu]

Just think if the terrorist had a gun

or a car or a truck

[Kickaha]

or a car or a truck

This is a firearms thread not a car or truck thread

[jasonu]

This is a firearms thread not a car or truck thread

OK then.....


Muppets!!!
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12290154

[TheDemonLord]

So, The Buy-Back data was publicly accessible.

Names, Licence numbers, Firearms held and Bank accounts.

Fucking.
Hell.

And they say a Register will be safe....

[austingtir]

I look forward to Laava and Huzza's opinion's on this!?


Come on you two you've had plenty to say in here out with it??






Now my opinion is Jacinda should resign. This entire gun grab has been a total fiasco.

The police and this government are a TOTAL F'ing DISGRACE!!!

[jasonu]

I look forward to Laava and Huzza's opinion's on this!?


Come on you two you've had plenty to say in here out with it??




!

Only one of them can carry a conversation without coming off sounding like a total cunt. Are you willing to take the chance?

[husaberg]

I look forward to Laava and Huzza's opinion's on this!?


Come on you two you've had plenty to say in here out with it??


Now my opinion is Jacinda should resign. This entire gun grab has been a total fiasco.

The police and this government are a TOTAL F'ing DISGRACE!!!


Police have confirmed a dealer with legitimate access to the online notification platform for the gun buyback programme was able to see all owners' details.

An update to the database - not authorised by police - had given dealers a higher level of access last week thanks to "human error", police said

he Office of the Privacy Commissioner has been advised, and police are working to notify people whose privacy has been breached.
The vendor's software has an audit log which will show - in time - how many people's information had been accessed.

Maybe before you comment you should actually find out what happened before going off half cocked.

Out of interest what has to happen before the US president should resign in your opinion?:rolleyes:

[austingtir]

^^

Thats just Nash's version of events. Thats not what I heard.

And:


https://youtu.be/kiRV1TAa8u8

[Danger Mouse]

Maybe before you comment you should actually find out what happened before going off half cocked.

Out of interest what has to happen before the US president should resign in your opinion?:rolleyes:

Lol. You're actually excusing a data breach.
Haha.

Oh, it's not what happened either.

Since my email earlier today, you may have seen media pick up on the issue following us going public and blowing the whistle on what is a major data leak from the Police.


We can now confirm that the firearm database breach has revealed that 37,125 owners have registered 280,000 individual newly prohibited items. Information made available includes full contact details, firearm licence number and bank address details.


Since my last email, the Police originally tried to downplay the significance of the leak telling media that the system had been taken offline immediately because of a “potential privacy breach”. They told media that “Immediately upon being made aware of the issue (the data breach) the platform was closed down…”


But that’s not true. At least one of the people who called to tell us of the open accessibility, had first called Police to report it.


When COLFO tested by logging in to the insecure portal it was still open, even though the issues had been raised. We know it was long enough to make the “immediately” claim incorrect.


In response to the Police’s claims, we released screenshot images of the leak (with private information redacted) and more information as our lawyers worked to verify the reports we were receiving about the extent of the problem. We reported on the supporter who had found records of 280,000 notifications.


We did not deliberately drip-feed information. We were working carefully to verify what we said. We were not prepared to make allegations without checking.


Shortly after noon today the Police announced a stand-up media briefing for 2pm. But just before 2pm it was cancelled. It will now be at 5pm.


We think the reason is simple. We had released more facts to the media in the meantime. We suspect that they made it impossible for the Police to run the earlier line they had planned (that there was “nothing to see here”).


Our legal and political advisors in Wellington say that our update almost certainly sent the the Police back to their media bunkers. They would no longer be able to dismiss our concerns.


This quick response effort would not have been possible without people like you chipping-in to the cause. The events of today make an absolute mockery of earlier claims by the Police to the Select Committee that they could be trusted to keep a firearm registry secure.


We’ll keep you informed.

[TheDemonLord]

It's funny, all the Databases I manage haven't inadvertently leaked information to the public.

Neither has there been any changes which I didn't Authorise.



But don't worry, a Register will be totally safe and secure.

The best part of this - is those that were intending to hand in their Firearms, the police have virtually guaranteed Non-compliance.

There's a good number of people that should be resigning over such a monumental Cock-up.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

It's funny, all the Databases I manage haven't inadvertently leaked information to the public.

Neither has there been any changes which I didn't Authorise.



But don't worry, a Register will be totally safe and secure.

The best part of this - is those that were intending to hand in their Firearms, the police have virtually guaranteed Non-compliance.

There's a good number of people that should be resigning over such a monumental Cock-up.

Agreed, but personal accountability ?
May as well believe in unicorns.
As an aside, I’m looking forward to the spin on the reason less than 40k firearms / illegal parts will Have been handed in by the deadline.
It’d be amusing, if it wasn’t so chaotic

PS, is it just me, or is David Seymour the only politician showing any common sense ?

[TheDemonLord]

Agreed, but personal accountability ?
May as well believe in unicorns.
As an aside, I’m looking forward to the spin on the reason less than 40k firearms / illegal parts will Have been handed in by the deadline.
It’d be amusing, if it wasn’t so chaotic

PS, is it just me, or is David Seymour the only politician showing any common sense ?

They've already started - the Police have changed their tune from 'no leniancy after December 20th' to 'there's a permenant Amnesty for after December 20th' - Mr Nash has been saying 'oh maybe we over-estimate how many were in circulation'

TL;DR - they are already lying through their teeth to avoid facing the obvious - We are seeing a protest of mass civil disobediance.

And that fills my heart with Joy.

And David Seymour is all good in my book.

[austingtir]

So not only do the gangs potentially have shopping lists of owners homes to go around and obtain illegal firearms.

But theres also the fact the Chinese when they inevitably invade our ass have the names and addresses of half the firearm owner's in NZ.....

We might aswell just all kneel down and welcome our future CCP overlords.

:rolleyes:

[Swoop]

And they say a Register will be safe....

AND accurate...

Their current register is inaccurate as all fuck, and there are only a limited amount of firearms on that, compared to what it will have to handle IF registration proceeds.
The cock-ups will come through thick and fast. Any government would be well advised to keep well away from such a political hot-potato.

[Danger Mouse]

AND accurate...

Their current register is inaccurate as all fuck, and there are only a limited amount of firearms on that, compared to what it will have to handle IF registration proceeds.
The cock-ups will come through thick and fast. Any government would be well advised to keep well away from such a political hot-potato.

A 66% error rate.

[TheDemonLord]

A 66% error rate.

For a Database of only 15,000 rifles to 7,000 owners.

That's fucking laughable.

[Swoop]

A 66% error rate.
Sounds about right.



Well, I've made a few thousand from them.
Was paid out more than what I spent purchasing the guns and also the magazines. A tidy profit at the taxpayer's expense.

[scumdog]

Except for the smuggled in guns every gun entering the country has required an import licence or permit of some sort.

So in theory the government SHOULD know how many of a particular type of gun are out there.

But they don't


What an unmitigated clustrefuck!:brick:

[Laava]

Which govt are to blame for that tho Scummy? It is irrelevant actually but is not the current one. I remember the permit to procure days and when they moved to the current license, that was the time to create a register. Big mistake as it turns out. Very very hard to fix that retrospectively.

[TheDemonLord]

Which govt are to blame for that tho Scummy? It is irrelevant actually but is not the current one. I remember the permit to procure days and when they moved to the current license, that was the time to create a register. Big mistake as it turns out. Very very hard to fix that retrospectively.

Why?

The point about the Import process is because of the repeated Lie of 'we don't know how many are out there'.

And I say lie for a number of reasons:

1: Either they don't know, which if true presents a problem - namely if you are required to issue a permit to import and keep a record of it and you fail to do that, it's impossible to then claim that the same entity will be able to keep a record in another format.

2: They do know, but if they let that slip it partially sinks the registry argument and will show people just how much a full Buy-Back would cost.

Furthermore - As Aoraki ammunition pointed out - The Police knew what Firearms that the Terrorist had - so for all the Registry advocates - please explain how that prevented the Mass Shooting?

[Bonez]

Why hasn't the fuck head been put on trial yet?

I don't think there will be a complete record of every fire arm in the country. Rumour has an increase of the purchase small dia. PVC piping was purchased after the first ban announcement. Hillary Clintons RH man was in NZ two weeks before shootings and Int'l Police exercises were going on in the area at the time of the shooting.

Of course the opportunists made good use of it for a few quick bucks.

[TheDemonLord]

Why hasn't the fuck head been put on trial yet?

I don't think there will be a complete record of every fire arm in the country. Rumour has an increase of the purchase small dia. PVC piping was purchased after the first ban announcement. Hillary Clintons RH man was in NZ two weeks before shootings and Int'l Police exercises were going on in the area at the time of the shooting.

With what the Government did to the E-Cat owners, and the Data Breach of the Buy-back website - there will never be a complete record.

[Katman]

With what the Government did to the E-Cat owners, and the Data Breach of the Buy-back website - there will never be a complete record.

Interesting that you completely ignored the conspiracy angle contained in Bonez's post.

Now if I'd said it.......

[Bonez]

Interesting that you completely ignored the conspiracy angle contained in Bonez's post.

Now if I'd said it....... Everyone likes a good conspiracy https://cloverchronicle.com/2019/03/17/john-podesta-was-in-new-zealand-days-prior-to-the-mosque-terror-attacks/

[Banditbandit]

Except for the smuggled in guns every gun entering the country has required an import licence or permit of some sort.

So in theory the government SHOULD know how many of a particular type of gun are out there.

But they don't


What an unmitigated clustrefuck!:brick:


Yes - exactly .... an unmitigated clusterfuck


Which govt are to blame for that tho Scummy? It is irrelevant actually but is not the current one. I remember the permit to procure days and when they moved to the current license, that was the time to create a register. Big mistake as it turns out. Very very hard to fix that retrospectively.


Why?

The point about the Import process is because of the repeated Lie of 'we don't know how many are out there'.

And I say lie for a number of reasons:

1: Either they don't know, which if true presents a problem - namely if you are required to issue a permit to import and keep a record of it and you fail to do that, it's impossible to then claim that the same entity will be able to keep a record in another format.

2: They do know, but if they let that slip it partially sinks the registry argument and will show people just how much a full Buy-Back would cost.

Furthermore - As Aoraki ammunition pointed out - The Police knew what Firearms that the Terrorist had - so for all the Registry advocates - please explain how that prevented the Mass Shooting?

They simply do not know - once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.

To even buy a gun off a mate you had to get a permit to procure - for each and every gun that was bought. Getting such a permit required a vetting process FOR EACH GUN!

The replacement system means I can sell my guns to anyone who has a licence - and the police are not involved.

I have three guns bought from mates, without any sort of permit other than the plastic card Firearms licence .. so the police have no idea I have these guns ...

At the time the new system was brought in, the police dumped their records (may be retrievable) - so the gun I bought in the 1970s they probably have no record that I own that one either ..

If they have no records from that period, then they simply do not know how many legal guns there are in the country .. some may have been lost or destroyed - the police simply do not know ..

They do not know how many firearms licence holders have bought guns from illegal sources .. or how many firearms holders have sold guns to illegal people .. They simply do not know .

The only thing the police really know is that I have a firearms licence ....

[TheDemonLord]

They simply do not know - once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.

To even buy a gun off a mate you had to get a permit to procure - for each and every gun that was bought. Getting such a permit required a vetting process FOR EACH GUN!

The replacement system means I can sell my guns to anyone who has a licence - and the police are not involved.

I have three guns bought from mates, without any sort of permit other than the plastic card Firearms licence .. so the police have no idea I have these guns ...

At the time the new system was brought in, the police dumped their records (may be retrievable) - so the gun I bought in the 1970s they probably have no record that I own that one either ..

If they have no records from that period, then they simply do not know how many legal guns there are in the country .. some may have been lost or destroyed - the police simply do not know ..

They do not know how many firearms licence holders have bought guns from illegal sources .. or how many firearms holders have sold guns to illegal people .. They simply do not know .

The only thing the police really know is that I have a firearms licence ....


So, they have a starting point, which let's pretend the register from the 1970s was accurate (we know it wasn't) - since then, they have had to issue the import permits for every Firearm in the country, we don't have any native Firearm manufacturing capacity of any significant quantity.

Starting integer + each permit issued = Total number of Firearms in the country with an acceptable error margin.

However, to answer the more important question - the Police should not need to know how many you have, only that you are properly licenced to own that which you do.

Now, from there if we want to talk about ways to stop firearms from getting into Illegal hands - by all means - however the notion that a Register will help here is laughable.

[scumdog]

Yes - exactly .... an unmitigated clusterfuck





They simply do not know - once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.

To even buy a gun off a mate you had to get a permit to procure - for each and every gun that was bought. Getting such a permit required a vetting process FOR EACH GUN!

The replacement system means I can sell my guns to anyone who has a licence - and the police are not involved.

I have three guns bought from mates, without any sort of permit other than the plastic card Firearms licence .. so the police have no idea I have these guns ...

At the time the new system was brought in, the police dumped their records (may be retrievable) - so the gun I bought in the 1970s they probably have no record that I own that one either ..

If they have no records from that period, then they simply do not know how many legal guns there are in the country .. some may have been lost or destroyed - the police simply do not know ..

They do not know how many firearms licence holders have bought guns from illegal sources .. or how many firearms holders have sold guns to illegal people .. They simply do not know .

The only thing the police really know is that I have a firearms licence ....



The cops discovered the register was in more tatters and disarray than a brides nightie - hence why they canned the idea.

And crims wouldn't register guns anyway.

[Swoop]

And crims wouldn't register guns anyway.

You can understand my complete and utter surprise at the Confiscation Event, when I didn't see one single gang member. Not one!
Would have thought they'd be lining up to show what upstanding citizens they are.

[/sarcasm mode]

[JimO]

You can understand my complete and utter surprise at the Confiscation Event, when I didn't see one single gang member. Not one!
Would have thought they'd be lining up to show what upstanding citizens they are.

[/sarcasm mode]
the gangs arnt the problem, this government loves gangs and general shitkkikrs, its the law abiding joe lunchbox who is the enemy and landlords those cunts are evil

[pritch]

You'd need to be a bit hard of thinking to try this in Texas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

[oldrider]

You'd need to be a bit hard of thinking to try this in Texas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50942664

Quoted with the video I saw of this shooting:-

[Quoted]Today an armed citizen at church prevented a mass shooting from happening

Dozens could have been killed

Why isn’t the media putting this hero on the front page of every news site and honouring his actions?[unquote] - Totally agree with the question? - Karma? :yes: Nice one!

[pritch]

once upon a time, as Laava has pointed out, there was a permit to procure process and the police knew what guns each person owned. An accurate register of legal guns.


That is a major fallacy. A myth. The permits were on individual pieces of paper which were stored in police stations all over the country. And there were a lot more police stations then than now.

If someone bought different firearms in different towns, as I did, there was no complete record. In my case New Plymouth held one, Wellington held one. Neither knew about the other.

There was no national register at all other than for the controlled classes of firearms, and that register was in complete disarray. Any resemblance between the records and reality was almost entirely coincidental.

[austingtir]

Quoted with the video I saw of this shooting:-

[Quoted]Today an armed citizen at church prevented a mass shooting from happening

Dozens could have been killed

Why isn’t the media putting this hero on the front page of every news site and honouring his actions?[unquote] - Totally agree with the question? - Karma? :yes: Nice one!

Because it doesnt fit the narrative they are pushing. Just the same as Black Israelites going on stabbing/shooting sprees in Jewish synagogues in NYC over the last month doesnt fit the narrative they want to push so they will give the story lip service and hope it disappears from the news cycle quietly.

People need to wake up to what we are dealing with here....

[jasonu]

Who thinks this is a highly excessive response to someone suspected of posessing .22 magazine?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12299600

[Laava]

Who thinks this is a highly excessive response to someone suspected of posessing .22 magazine?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12299600
Who else thinks this is a boring story, with only one side presented? Read between the lines a bit and it is obvious why the police did what they did.

[Kickaha]

Who else thinks this is a boring story, with only one side presented? Read between the lines a bit and it is obvious why the police did what they did.

When you say read between the lines do you mean make shit up to suit whatever story you want to believe in ?

[Laava]

When you say read between the lines do you mean make shit up to suit whatever story you want to believe in ?
No, not me personally, but if we were to hear the other perspective, unexagerrated/exagerrated in a different slant, it would be a completely different story I bet.
The truth lies , as always, somewhere in between. At that point it is prob a pretty boring and hardly newsworthy story, was my point.

for instance, the first thing I saw that made little sense is the claim that the cops were looking for a magazine, whereas in fact they were looking for an illegal rifle that the complainant had stated he owned but had not clarified that he had disposed of it. That is how I understand it.
Did the cops over-react? Yeah, probably.
Has the complainant got something to whinge about? Not really.

[husaberg]

No, not me personally, but if we were to hear the other perspective, unexagerrated/exagerrated in a different slant, it would be a completely different story I bet.
The truth lies , as always, somewhere in between. At that point it is prob a pretty boring and hardly newsworthy story, was my point.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/114905852/men-in-their-20s-to-appear-in-court-after-illegal-firearms-found-during-raid
https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/114811718/armed-police-operation-at-new-plymouth-gang-pad
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/cash-meth-loaded-guns-stun-gun-seized-cops-in-raid-christchurch-gang-pad
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm
500 firearms had been seized during law enforcement incidents, including police responding to family harm callouts and finding firearms in the home.
Weapons have also been confiscated during vehicle stops during high-profile or significant offending and during raids on organised crime and gang figures.

[oldrider]

Buck Rogers ray-gun getting closer to reality every day? - :corn: - Interesting?

China brings Star Wars to life with ‘laser AK-47’ that can set fire to targets a kilometre away:- :eek: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2153310/china-brings-star-wars-life-laser-ak-47-could-set-fire - :sunny:

[scumdog]

No, not me personally, but if we were to hear the other perspective, unexagerrated/exagerrated in a different slant, it would be a completely different story I bet.
The truth lies , as always, somewhere in between. At that point it is prob a pretty boring and hardly newsworthy story, was my point.

for instance, the first thing I saw that made little sense is the claim that the cops were looking for a magazine, whereas in fact they were looking for an illegal rifle that the complainant had stated he owned but had not clarified that he had disposed of it. That is how I understand it.
Did the cops over-react? Yeah, probably.
Has the complainant got something to whinge about? Not really.


A real fail PR wise for the cops and a colossal waste of resources for no result.

[FJRider]

A real fail PR wise for the cops and a colossal waste of resources for no result.

On the Political agenda it was a great success.

Win win eh ... Oh wait ... :lol:

[TheDemonLord]

So, 90% opposition to the Second Tranche of Firearm law changes.

Current indication is that it is going to pass with minor Tweaks.

How is this Democracy?

[scumdog]

So, 90% opposition to the Second Tranche of Firearm law changes.

Current indication is that it is going to pass with minor Tweaks.

How is this Democracy?


It's not even democracys arse - just pure political knee-jerk reaction and grand standing.:bs:

Now they're targetting pump action centre-fires - 'death by a thousand cuts' forgun owners.

Hopefully this COL falls on its collective inept falls-promises face in the next election...:angry:

[husaberg]

I remember someone saying they would not admit whether they complied with the law regarding their now prohibited AR10 until after Xmas, only they have said sweet f -all about where they have complied with the law and handed it in.
it must be like Trumps tax returns. Or Stevos many viable large scale alternatives to 1080

[Danger Mouse]

I remember someone saying they would not admit whether they complied with the law regarding their now prohibited AR10 until after Xmas, only they have said sweet f -all about where they have complied with the law and handed it in.
it must be like Trumps tax returns. Or Stevos many viable large scale alternatives to 1080


Cool story bro.

[TheDemonLord]

I remember someone saying they would not admit whether they complied with the law regarding their now prohibited AR10 until after Xmas, only they have said sweet f -all about where they have complied with the law and handed it in.
it must be like Trumps tax returns. Or Stevos many viable large scale alternatives to 1080

That's the funny thing about your Memory, it's often wrong.

I never said that.

Here is what I did say, in relation to your question as to whether I had participated in the Buyback or not:



1: It's not a Question you have any right to ask.
2: It's not a Question I have any obligation to answer.
3: You may ask that Question after the 20th of December.


so, since it's after the 20th of December you may ask the question, however, I shall refer you to points 1 and 2.

But because I'm a charitable sort - I shall give you a one time answer, which shall be in it's entirety and not expanded on further:

I did what was right.

[oldrider]

Lots of news about shootings now that all the guns have been handed in to the police - very reassuring to the average citizen - the government is now well in control of firearms. - :msn-wink:

[sidecar bob]

Lots of news about shootings now that all the guns have been handed in to the police - very reassuring to the average citizen - the government is now well in control of firearms. - :msn-wink:

Yep, feeling so much safer now, knowing that only outlaws have the illegal guns.
Thanks Jacinda.

[husaberg]

Yep, feeling so much safer now, knowing that only outlaws have the illegal guns.
Thanks Jacinda.

You should also thank your local National MP who voted for the law, as well as all of his party?
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/parliament-overwhelmingly-votes-tougher-new-gun-laws-in-wake-christchurch-terrorist-attacks
In fact the only MP who didnt vote for it was to busy grandstanding to the news media he forgot to vote against it at one of the readings.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/04/02/518098/seymour-misses-key-gun-law-vote
So how is it something all the MP's voted for a law change supported by most of NZ yet in your opinion its is one person fault?
Are National MP's and leadership really that weak that they have to follow a Labour PM lead?

BTW in case you never noticed its always been the criminals that have had the illegal guns......

https://thedailyblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/tenor.gifhttps://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-09/15/22/campaign_images/webdr12/new-zealand-politician-the-french-love-the-cock-2-6172-1442369778-0_dblbig.jpghttps://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-09/15/21/enhanced/webdr08/anigif_enhanced-833-1442368470-4.gif

<iframe width="757" height="424" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_7plURl4sx4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Same dude had missed other votes as well on climate change as well

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117254263/act-misses-climate-vote-allowing-bill-through-unanimously




National won’t support the second tranche of gun reform laws because they are soft on “crims, gangs and extremists”.

Really?

Here are the reforms…

Establishing a firearms register
Make owning a gun a “privilege” that comes with obligations
Tighten the rules to obtain and keep a gun licence
Tighten the rules for gun dealers to get and keep a licence
Require licences to be renewed every five years
Not allow visitors to purchase guns in New Zealand
Introduce a new warning system for police so they can intervene if they have concerns about a licence holder’s behaviour
Introduce a licencing system for shooting clubs and ranges
Set up an expert group to advise the police on firearms
Introduce new advertising standards around guns
Require licences to buy magazines, parts and ammunition
Increase penalties and introduce new offences

[sidecar bob]

You should also thank your local National MP who voted for the law, as well as all of his party?
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/parliament-overwhelmingly-votes-tougher-new-gun-laws-in-wake-christchurch-terrorist-attacks
In fact the only MP who didnt vote for it was to busy grandstanding to the news media he forgot to vote against it at one of the readings.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/04/02/518098/seymour-misses-key-gun-law-vote
So how is it something all the MP's voted for a law change supported by most of NZ yet in your opinion its is one person fault?
Are National MP's and leadership really that weak that they have to follow a Labour PM lead?

BTW in case you never noticed its always been the criminals that have had the illegal guns......


Same dude had missed other votes as well on climate change as well

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/117254263/act-misses-climate-vote-allowing-bill-through-unanimously
Regardless of who loves the cock, or who did or didn't vote, it was a complete waste of time resources in the name of appearing to be doing the right thing in the face of the stupid & gullible.
It's always the bosses fault, end of the day she's leading the charge.
And if it's always criminals that have had the illegal guns, how was this crock of shit ever going to make things any better if we all knew that was going to be the outcome from the get go?

[husaberg]

Regardless of who loves the cock, or who did or didn't vote, it was a complete waste of time resources in the name of appearing to be doing the right thing in the face of the stupid & gullible.

So what you are saying is you admit none of what you said stands up to any scrutiny, especially as you wish to falsely and knowingly attribute blame, yet you wish to inhabit some form of moral high ground. That's some funny ass shit. You should move to Taupo and change your er.. last name

[Bonez]

I'm sure down in bango land there were perfectly law abiding citizens that have/have had unregistered fire arms. Possobly inherited from their gandpappy or other ancestor/family member. Of course they were not availble to Troglodytes.

[sidecar bob]

So what you are saying is you admit none of what you said stands up to any scrutiny especially as you wish to falsely and knowingly attribute blame, yet you wish to inhabit some form of moral high ground. That's some funny ass shit. You should move to Taupo and change your er.. last name
Did you just string a whole lot of uninteligeble claptrap together & suggest i was like someone else, so stupid people might percieve that its me thats on the back foot?

[husaberg]

Did you just string a whole lot of uninteligeble claptrap together & suggest i was like someone else, so stupid people might percieve that its me thats on the back foot?

Yeah so when you attempted to insinuate it was all the Labours Leader fault that the gun laws in NZ were changed.

Y Thanks Jacinda.
it was because you never knew your local MP along with every other National and NZ first and green party Mp voted for the law change?
Or when you said it was only the criminals that had illegal guns you were not aware that this was always the case?

Yep, feeling so much safer now, knowing that only outlaws have the illegal guns.
Or where you just talking crap hoping no one would notice you where spreading a entirely false narrative?
Hint ....You wouldn't have been compared to the "taupo tosser" if it wasn't for the attempt of spreading of the false narrative.
Maybe if it was a mater closer to the inner Mongolian horse riders association Simon may have convinced the National party to vote differently.
Maybe you could donate 125K to the National party and become an MP.

[jasonu]

Yeah so when you attempted to insinuate it was all the Labours Leader fault that the gun laws in NZ were changed.

it was because you never knew your local MP along with every other National and NZ first and green party Mp voted for the law change?
Or when you said it was only the criminals that had illegal guns you were not aware that this was always the case?

Or where you just talking crap hoping no one would notice you where spreading a entirely false narrative?
Hint ....You wouldn't have been compared to the "taupo tosser" if it wasn't for the attempt of spreading of the false narrative.
Maybe if it was a mater closer to the inner Mongolian horse riders association Simon may have convinced the National party to vote differently.
Maybe you could donate 125K to the National party and become an MP.

I see you are still a total dick head.

[FJRider]

Or when you said it was only the criminals that had illegal guns you were not aware that this was always the case?



Actually ... I know of licensed gun owners that were in possession of illegal weaponry ... before any amendments to legislation. Literally NOTHING has changed in this respect. Are they criminals ... or do you need to be sentenced in a court of law first ???

I remember when records of weapon serial numbers were recorded with your firearms license. It was changed to the individual firearms owners not needing permits to acquire more weapons. and a Gun Register was deemed unworkable and impossible to maintain correctly. With the (intended ??) introduction of a Gun register (any word how that is going ... anybody ??) keeping an accurate record of an individuals weapons in their possession (or accessible to them) is now all but impossible.

In essence ... the NZ Gun laws are now pretty much based on an honesty system. And the $$$ value on the (now) illegal one's just went up.

Although the "Christchurch Shooting" culprit WAS licensed ... the proper procedure's ... and checks ... were not made by the appropriate authorities before his license was approved. Funny that not much about THAT was ever said. AND ... we will have the SAME people running the system. What really has changed ??? The SAME firearms (Minus a few thousand surplus to owners requirements that in many cases were paid more than they cost) ... are still in use/possession by/of people that (by law) shouldn't be.

[husaberg]

I see you are still a total dick head.

You know that i cant remember the last time you added something useful to any discussion on KB, You used to be good prick, now we, can just go with the later rather than the former.

[FJRider]

You know that i cant remember the last time you added something useful to any discussion on KB, You used to be good prick, now we, can just go with the later rather than the former.

The same might be said about you ... pot calling the kettle black maybe ... ;)

Make a poll up (I haven't seen one for a while) and ask ... :cool:

[sidecar bob]

I've got the span of attention of a goldfish, so assume that if your post was over thirty words I didn't read it.
The long & short of it is that the govt spent a couple of hundred million on a gun buyback so as to keep us safe, yet villains are still shooting each other & the police willy nilly.
Clearly it was a successful campaign.

[Bonez]

You know that i cant remember the last time you added something useful to any discussion on KB, You used to be good prick, now we, can just go with the later rather than the former.
It's you who shlould be doing some self refledxtion in that regard. You have mainly posted twaddle since I returned about three months ago. Sidecar Bob on the other hand has been quite helpful.

[sidecar bob]

It's you who shlould be doing some self refledxtion in that regard. You have mainly posted twaddle since I returned about three months ago. Sidecar Bob on the other hand has been quite helpful.

I still think 'berg & I would get on great in person.
In fact I tried to catch up with him last week when I was passing through that part of the country.
Circumstances were against us, but I'm confident it would have been a cracking day, politics avoided.

[FJRider]

I've got the span of attention of a goldfish, so assume that if your post was over thirty words I didn't read it.
The long & short of it is that the govt spent a couple of hundred million on a gun buyback so as to keep us safe, yet villains are still shooting each other & the police willy nilly.
Clearly it was a successful campaign.

I'm old. That's my excuse.

The buy-back scheme was very successful. I personally know of six gun owners that were paid a great deal more that they originally paid for them. A few even paid (not much) gun repairer's to have some not working (and not complete) to get them into a condition they might work. Thus a better price at buy-back time.

[husaberg]

I still think 'berg & I would get on great in person.
In fact I tried to catch up with him last week when I was passing through that part of the country.
Circumstances were against us, but I'm confident it would have been a cracking day, politics avoided.

irrespective of leanings i am sure we would.
I was over with Grumph a few days later he missed you as well. Kept him up well past his bedtime and even gave him some rain.
Next time you are on tour i will arrange a decent stopover with the local highlights

[Bonez]

I still think 'berg & I would get on great in person.
In fact I tried to catch up with him last week when I was passing through that part of the country.
Circumstances were against us, but I'm confident it would have been a cracking day, politics avoided.I'm sure that's the case, especially when in disscussion of a common interest.

He and Laava are completely useless at trolling fwiw.

[sidecar bob]

irrespective of leanings i am sure we would.
I was over with Grumph a few days later he missed you as well. Kept him up well past his bedtime and even gave him some rain.
Next time you are on tour i will arrange a decent stopover with the local highlights

Time wasn't my own. I was charging around with a Merc van full of suitcases trying to keep up with a bunch of guys that just wanted to ride motorcycles from daylight until dark.
Better than actual real work though.:msn-wink:

[jasonu]

You know that i cant remember the last time you added something useful to any discussion on KB, .

That may or may not be true. It can almost certainly be applied to you. The difference between us is I don't fill half a page with inane dribble and 8 stupid cartoons like you do.

[Katman]

I still think 'berg & I would get on great in person.


That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

[sidecar bob]

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
Fantastic, and why did you feel the need to point that out specifically?
I was running cars at Taupo circuit on Tuesday, but didn't feel the slightest urge to look you up.

[FJRider]

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

No surprises there ... which doesn't surprise me.

I bet you can't surprise me with a witty reply ... :shifty:

[Swoop]

I remember when records of weapon serial numbers were recorded with your firearms license.
It was changed to the individual firearms owners not needing permits to acquire more weapons. and a Gun Register was deemed unworkable and impossible to maintain correctly. With the (intended ??) introduction of a Gun register (any word how that is going ... anybody ??) keeping an accurate record of an individuals weapons in their possession (or accessible to them) is now all but impossible.

We have always had a firearm's register.
It records all of the collector's firearms, pistols, MSSA's. Also, it was never accurate.
All the shooters that I know with an endorsed licence have had issues with accuracy of records against their licence. On my last spot-visit by the plod, I had a firearm on my licence which I do not own. "Oh, I'd better update the records then" was the response...:facepalm:

[FJRider]

On my last spot-visit by the plod, I had a firearm on my licence which I do not own. "Oh, I'd better update the records then" was the response...:facepalm:

Sounds familiar ... and in these people the Government are entrusting our security and safety with nationwide gun control ... :lol:

[pritch]

In the real world of life in the police station there may be panics from time to time. The cop doing firearms records was taken off that work to assist with the panic du jour, and over time the firearms records fell behind and eventually into disarray. For this reason when John Banks' then new system was introduced, general duties cops were not used, vetters were 'civilians,' although many were retired police.

Since that time things have run more smoothly. Not perfectly of course, humans are involved, but it's years since I've heard a complaint* and I've had none of my own. I'd suggest that some of the complaints arise from a lack of action on the part of the owners, rather than any action on the part of the police.

We'll just have to watch developments with interest. Registering all firearms (except those owned by criminals) will be a massive undertaking.

I might mention that nobody has published details of a case that was solved using registration details.

*Apart from the one in the post above.

[oldrider]

Harrison Hanks - he can play them all? (Specially anti gun crisis false flag shit)

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[Swoop]

Since that time things have run more smoothly. Not perfectly of course, humans are involved, but it's years since I've heard a complaint*

There are plenty more. Lots of the club members can attest to that.
Remember that this liarbour government wants complete registration, which will equal far greater quantities of innacurate information, using their past performance as the primary example.
Then they want the firearm owners to pay for it all...